[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

I know I've mentioned this before in the thread and got shot down, but what about a straight up combo version that forgoes the long game in favor of pure speed... pacts, etc with the focus being on glimpse or regal force to draw cards. I'd suggest some priest of titania or archdruid in a version like this, as well as ezuri as a potential win con. Something to chew on, but itd need to be looked at with fresh eyes...none of thise "but NO elves is obv better" biz
We did this with the old builds while we where finding out feet. On the Transition from Glimpse to NO elves, some of us push for NO, some of us pushed to make the deck fasted with Glimpse. I was in the second camp. The idea is that you use Birchlore and Nettle alongside Glimpse (Or sometimes other combos of cards, but those are the simplest), and push a turn two win. It works too. But the issue with that build is that you need the top of your library to be mostly 1 drops to work. But also, they need to be the RIGHT 1 drops. Then you power into a hell of a turn, winning after the other guy has only played a land.

Now the current build can do this too. You have more Cradles now so to a point it is easier, but the Birchlores are really what you want if your pushing that line of play. But then reality hits. As much as I liked the build the NO builds offer a better set of plays that offer more resilience. Pushing this deck more to the turn 2 and less of the turn 3 builds makes it a bad Beltcher deck. While you can do this, it offers no great benefit over the current structuring. Also, Titania and Archdruid do not speed up your deck, mana is cheep here, no they slow you down as they take a turn to get online.

I would like to point out that I find it funny that this is all stuff that I was bringing up in the old thread. I was also a bit less experienced at the time and now find myself on the other side of the table. Anyway you will find more info on the balls to the wall Glimpse build here (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/matt-nass/spoiler-spotlight-beck-call/) and some short comments on it from the powers that be here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17168-Deck-Elves-Combo/page177).

[Yanley]

I played last night at our local store for a Journey to Nyx Prerelease pass. 12 players joined and I was first in the final standing.

Matchup 1 - Goblin Charbelcher (2-1)

Game 1 - The guy who played the deck would normally play either a Delver-deck or ANT so I was surprised that he casted land grant on his first turn. He was able to cast Goblin Charbelcher on turn 1 but he was not able to draw into more mana while I went for the Craterhoof kill on turn 4. Got pretty lucky here...

Game 2 - He plays 18 goblins on turn 2. I only had 2 Deathrite Shamans in play but fizzled on attempting to go off with glimpse. Would have helped if I drew a cradle.

Game 3 - I cast Thoughtseize and saw the ff:

Land Grant, Land Grant, Taiga, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox.

I took the Lion's Eye Diamond. On his third turn, he casts an Elvish Spirit Guide for defense but he sighed the turn after. I was able to go for the NO-Hoof plan and he showed me the Goblin Charbelcher stuck in his hand as he was one mana short of casting it. If he saved the ESG, he could have won the match.

Matchup 2 - GW Maverick (2-1)

Game 1 - I hated the fact that after I casted Glimpse on turn 2 and drawing 2 Natural Orders, he promptly casts GSZ = 2 for Gaddock Teeg. I had the Hoof in hand and I had around 5 elves in play but I never drew Gaea's Cradle to cast our win-con.

Game 2 - Turn 3 NO-Hoof FTW!

Game 3 - I used two cradles to hard-cast a Craterhoof for 40+ damage on Turn 4. I used glimpse the turn prior to draw around 2 cards only.

Matchup 3 -Esper Stoneblade (2-0)

Game 1 - He only casted Brainstorm and Swords while I was able to NO twice (the 1st for Ruric Thar because I only had one other creature in play while the 2nd NO was for Craterhoof). He never had the counterspell in hand to stop the NOs.

Game 2 - He cast Thoughtseize and saw my hand containing the ff:

Bayou, Cradle, Wirewood Symbiote, Deathrite Shaman, Quirion Ranger, Thoughtseize, Glimpse of Nature.

He took the thoughtseize. On my turn, I play Bayou for Deathrite Shaman. He passes on turn 2. On my 2nd turn, I drew into Thoughtseize and saw the ff:

Usea, Usea, P Delta, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique. I took the Snapcaster Mage because I'd rather him use the Vendilion to replace one card in my hand than to discard it completely. He casts Clique on turn 3 and saw the ff: Cradle, Glimpse of Nature, and Natural Order. He took the NO but it got replaced by another elf so I used the glimpse, drew into 2 more creatures then another NO. I casted the NO that I drew off the glimpse and searched for Hoofy.

Matchup 4 - Dredge (ID)

The decklist I ran is based on the link below with some minor changes:

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D062593


-1 Regal Force, +1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Ruric Thar (because I run a 61-card deck)

I use the following sideboard:

2x Pithing Needle
3x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
3x Swan Song
1x Progenitus
1x Worldspine Wurm
1x Natural Order
3x Abrupt Decay

This is how I boarded for my three matchups.

Goblin Charbelcher
-3 Elvish Visionary
-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Glimpse of Nature
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Cabal Therapy
+3 Swan Song
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Natural Order

GW Maverick

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus
-1 Ruric Thar
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-2 Glimpse of Nature

Esper Stoneblade (I'm not sure about this)

+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus
-2 Glimpse of Nature
-2 Nettle Sentinel
-3 Heritage Druid
-1 Ruric Thar
-1 Craterhood Behemoth
-1 Elvish Visionary

[Echelon]

Bloodline shaman seems fine for card advantage, but given that we already have symbiote/visionary i'd play Sylvan Messenger instead of bloodline shaman to go bonkers with symbiote.
The problem is that aggro elves probably fails to reach the power level of goblins/death and taxes, they just have more efficient creatures for this path and better removal spells.

The Shaman also gives your Quirion Ranger something to do. Same goes for the other end of the Symbiote's abilitie.

Anywho... Evaluation isn't supposed to begin until next thursday.

Next oddball idea - Elf-pod. Combine the vast amounts of mana we can make with Birthing Pods to power out evergrowing threats. Seeing we have acces to Wirewood Symbiote, maybe pull some shenanigans with Fauna Shaman and Vengevine as well. And include Wirewood Hivemaster to let us tutor for 1-drops. No more NO's, just Glimpses & BFF-team.

[Lemnear]

I kinda like the idea of Sylvan Messager and Ezuri's as kill. Downsides however remain that we don't run a curve for Vial and stuff, so rebuilding after a sweeper remains a herakles-like task. The Evaluation comes with investing that much mana into Messager and Ezuri while NO can win on the spot for the same manacost.

I'm thrilled to think about how cutting Nettle+Heritage would affect the deck in terms of the remaining effect of Quirion etc.

/radical thoughts

[Echelon]

I'm thrilled to think about how cutting Nettle+Heritage would affect the deck in terms of the remaining effect of Quirion etc.

That all depends on how many creatures you keep playing that enjoying being able to tap multiple times a turn. Manadorks & Quirion Ranger'll remain to be friends anyway.

[Lemnear]

That all depends on how many creatures you keep playing that enjoying being able to tap multiple times a turn. Manadorks & Quirion Ranger'll remain to be friends anyway.

Well, the numbers of regular "mana dorks" like DRS, Llanowar, Birchlores and Heritages is decreasing anyways since the landcount rose from ~15 to ~20

[Echelon]

I've seen no reason to increase our landcount :smile:

[Lemnear]

I've seen no reason to increase our landcount :smile:

I was aiming that the deck is moving away from the concept of mana-dorks to power out bigger spells anyways and more relies on untap-effects for Arbor and DRS aka a smaller selection of "mana dorks" plus the power of Cradle compared to the conception the deck had 1,5 years back. The number of Llanowars and friends kept going down and now Nettle/Heritage do the same.

[Echelon]

I see :smile:. You absolutely have a point there.

Next idea: Keep most of the current build, but switch the NO's for Timberwatch Elves and try to work in 3 Concordant Crossroads. Perhaps lower the land count to 12 rather then 14.

Balls to the walls Glimpse of Nature-build using a kill condition that can help continue the Glimpse chain when you can't make lethal damage yet! Also quite fun with Quirion Rangers & Wirewood Symbiotes. Can't steal kills as easily as the NO-build though and kinda kills the NO-Pro plan.

[Togores]

Gl beating with Concordant a show and tell.
Cause sneak atack is usualy slow and You can just outrace a show and tell in your turn cause you put a elf or so into play.
With concordant in Play they can just drop emrakul and send you to dead prety easily.

^^

[Echelon]

Gl beating with Concordant a show and tell.
Cause sneak atack is usualy slow and You can just outrace a show and tell in your turn cause you put a elf or so into play.
With concordant in Play they can just drop emrakul and send you to dead prety easily.

^^

You only play your Concordant Crossroads when you're sure it's likely you'll win that turn, ie. halfway during a Glimpse-chain. Besides, Wirewood Hivemaster is a thing...

[Lemnear]

Just a reminder: even with brainstorming ideas to improve consistancy, lets get sure this thread is not derailing into some budget/fun stuff like the previous

[Dice_Box]

I kinda like the idea of Sylvan Messager and Ezuri's as kill. Downsides however remain that we don't run a curve for Vial and stuff, so rebuilding after a sweeper remains a herakles-like task. The Evaluation comes with investing that much mana into Messager and Ezuri while NO can win on the spot for the same manacost.

I'm thrilled to think about how cutting Nettle+Heritage would affect the deck in terms of the remaining effect of Quirion etc.

/radical thoughts

If you go down this path, Swansong is at LEST a sideboard card.

[dte]

While I strongly believe that we should keep the actual global list and only tweak on minor adjustments MD (heritage # 4, NO # 4, GSZ silver bullets-ScOoze & Vshaman, Ruric/Regal/Proge, Behemoth # 2, fitting in probes, dryad arbor #2, Taiga), I want to try the game.

First, the weakness we want to overcome is mainly imo our bad MU against miracle, then combo.

Second we have actually around 4 main gameplans: aggro, NO, BFT, Glimpse.

Aggro will always stay as we play with creatures. We can try to improve it or not, but improving the aggro plan will certainly not help against combo. And if we improve it with a card that commit us to have a big board (hivemaster, lords, ...) it won't help against miracle as well.

BFT: we will never remove symbiot as it's allows protection vs removal + mana + block vs aggro, helps a lot both NO & Glimpse. He is one of the best card ever vs miracle too. It is hard if we keep him to separate him from his best friend, especially in a GSZ featuring deck. We could improve this combo by adding Cloudstone Curio and/or Multani's Acolyte. However I'm pretty sure that if it was the way to go, it will have been done when we did not have access to NO-hoof. To fit it in, we will have to remove one of the combo plans and slow us down by a lot, thus having a much worse combo MU.

Combo plans: Most of the posts I read wanted to remove the NO plan when it's the easiest to set-up, the one taking the less slots and the most resilient to hate with the Pro in the board. If we shave off Glimpse, we cut heritage and nettle too, having 12 slots to play with.
We could try 4 Fauna shaman, X Vengevigne, 1 revoker (LED, Sneak Attack, Jace & Needle), Teeg, Thalia, Mirror entity, Proge, Titania or archdruid ... In a deck with 8 untap effects, untapping with Shaman is really brutal. Untapping with Titania + Fauna leads to insta win through infinite mana. It is still very hard to untap with them though, especially G2-3 I think.
Otherwise it should be very fun to play with a deck with so much tutor effects.

Regards,
David

[dte]

On a more serious note I have tried Anurid Brushhopper as a SB GSZ target vs miracle. It resists to Vendillion, SCM, terminus, Stp and kill Jace.
He is quite good but not game ender (because of EtA mainly) and totally useless against other MUs.
If someone else wants to test it against Miracle, I'm quite eager to hear from it as I do not have the time to test a lot by myself.

Regards,
David

[LeoCop 90]

Check out round 8 of starcitygames MKE. Sam Black (elves) wins a crazy game one against Nic Fit, after a never ending glimpse chain BUT attacking, if i'm not wrong , with a summoning sick elf + behemoth.
I don't think he could have won the game withouth this (i hope unintetional) cheat... maybe there was a possibility if he attacked ith just behemoth and then used deathrite on opponent's upkeep , but i'm not sure. Anyway it is worth watching XD

[Shagstaman]

there's been a ton of talk about that play... a lot of people think it was intentional but many players who know Sam personally have chimed in saying he'd never do it on purpose. I have personally done that on accident, so I kinda feel for the guy. It was 100% an illegal action, but I'm not certain if it was malicious our not.

On another note, I actually am starting to think our miracles matchup isn't as bad as people seem to think. I've only lost to it once in like 5 matches at large tournaments...and others in this thread have similar results. I think just knowing how to fight all the permission and not overcommitting the board is key. You rarely kill them with a big hoof...drs activations + elf beatdown seems to do the trick vs them since they present no real clock until the way late game. Maybe I've been lucky vs them (maybe..), but honestly I think combo is more troublesome than miracles by a lot.

[jarvisyu]

there's been a ton of talk about that play... a lot of people think it was intentional but many players who know Sam personally have chimed in saying he'd never do it on purpose. I have personally done that on accident, so I kinda feel for the guy. It was 100% an illegal action, but I'm not certain if it was malicious our not.

On another note, I actually am starting to think our miracles matchup isn't as bad as people seem to think. I've only lost to it once in like 5 matches at large tournaments...and others in this thread have similar results. I think just knowing how to fight all the permission and not overcommitting the board is key. You rarely kill them with a big hoof...drs activations + elf beatdown seems to do the trick vs them since they present no real clock until the way late game. Maybe I've been lucky vs them (maybe..), but honestly I think combo is more troublesome than miracles by a lot.

I'm on a 15 match win streak versus miracles (last match being versus Reid...)

I 100% agree that fast combo is a worse matchup, and that the miracles matchup just takes a lot of testing against.

I would not say it's a great matchup, but knowing exactly what you need to do to win helps a lot.

[Togores]

I have hard time beating miracles.
Can you say what your game plan is and what u side in and out?

[Lemnear]

Check out round 8 of starcitygames MKE. Sam Black (elves) wins a crazy game one against Nic Fit, after a never ending glimpse chain BUT attacking, if i'm not wrong , with a summoning sick elf + behemoth.
I don't think he could have won the game withouth this (i hope unintetional) cheat... maybe there was a possibility if he attacked ith just behemoth and then used deathrite on opponent's upkeep , but i'm not sure. Anyway it is worth watching XD


there's been a ton of talk about that play... a lot of people think it was intentional but many players who know Sam personally have chimed in saying he'd never do it on purpose. I have personally done that on accident, so I kinda feel for the guy. It was 100% an illegal action, but I'm not certain if it was malicious our not.

There is one problem with that theory: Sam was going to draw himself dead and he noticed that far too late to react anymore. He had 0 creatures in play before starting the combo and asked his opponent if the Visionary in play was the one he had at the beginning of the turn (strange question at this point) and attacked as he had no way to win this game otherwise.

People who know Alex B. personally said the same about him. I personally never bought and will buy the Story of "Player A makes "mistakes" and "sloppy" play + have constant top finishes = fair and outstanding player"

[Togores]

In the article at scg I posted Sam explained that previusly in the game his opp made pernicius for one leaving only a visionary there as mistake .
and latter he asked: all my creatures have summon sickness. Where his opp confusing the 1st perni on one with the second on more said all but not the visionary. So he also thought the same and atacked for game.


its littl more complicated but its explained in the link i posted

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Check out round 8 of starcitygames MKE. Sam Black (elves) wins a crazy game one against Nic Fit, after a never ending glimpse chain BUT attacking, if i'm not wrong , with a summoning sick elf + behemoth.
I don't think he could have won the game withouth this (i hope unintetional) cheat... maybe there was a possibility if he attacked ith just behemoth and then used deathrite on opponent's upkeep , but i'm not sure. Anyway it is worth watching XD

Anyone have a link to this?

[haganbmj]

Anyone have a link to this?

Here's the start of the match (source) (http://www.mtgcoverage.com/), you'll have to fast forward a bit.
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/517571946?t=642m35s

Sam starts his turn and James blows his Deed almost immediately to destroy the only creature on the table, an Elvish Visionary. From there, Sam decks himself, looks to be generating mana to cast Progenitus, then realizes that his Craterhoof will still be short of lethal. He gestures at the new Visionary on the table and James seems to agree that it's not summoning sick. Sam plays Craterhoof, untaps the Visionary, and sends them both in.

[Ornament]

Hey everyone..fellow diehard elves player here. Been stalking Julians stream for awhile now. I love the insight you guys give on this board. Anyone notice foil nettle sentinel are basically all sold out on tcgplayer? I picked mine up about two months ago. (before the price hike)

[Julian23]

Was a guest on Marc's (=Bahra) stream yesterday. Watch us play your favorite deck to a flawless 4-0 victory in the Daily Event on Magic Online:
http://www.twitch.tv/bahra_/b/519582869

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

[burtonbaron62]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

I really enjoy your streams Julian! Thanks for doing them, and I hope you keep it up!

[Julian23]

I really enjoy your streams Julian! Thanks for doing them, and I hope you keep it up!

Thanks mean, it really means a lot to me reading comments like yours :smile: Also....Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

[Kayradis]

For the record, Julian broke MTGO last night.

[Quasim0ff]

For the record, Julian broke MTGO last night.

How? :)

[AznSeal]

Whats the opinion on a wish board? I know it's been discussed before, and it was deemed bad, but I think with Living Wish, we can search up Karakas, Bojoku Bog, Boseiju to force through a natural order, or Cavern of Souls to force through a threat. Maybe even crop rotation for the land searching ability instead?

Just trying to stimulate conversation.

[igri_is_a_bk]

To speak to its contribution, I like that it and/or Summoner's Pact get around Grafdigger's Cage. That card is becoming more ubiquitous in sideboards, although it's typically present only as a 1- or 2-of so Decay may be enough already. I haven't played a lot of Elves lately unfortunately.

[haganbmj]

Played my first event with elves tonight to a strong 3-1-1 finish into top 8 where I took down my top 8 opponent and split top 4.



Spells (29+11=40)
Lands (20)
Sideboard (15)


1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Null Rod
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus



Overall I was pleased with the list. I think I should find a slot for a Qasali Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver in the sideboard, however, and I need to solidify my sideboard plans before I play this again. Felt a little loose there.

Round 1 v UWr Miracles (2-1)
Round 2 v White Trash (2-0)
Round 3 v Jund (2-1)
Round 4 v ??? (ID)
Round 5 v Junk Maverick (0-2) - maybe it's just Junk at this point; 4 Stoneforge, Knights, Confidants, sideboard: 2 EPlague + 2 ETutors + Canonist. No Mothers.

Top 8 v Jund (2-0) - same opponent.
Top 4 Split

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How? :)

Yes, how? I'm curious. Also, you can't make an outlandish statement like that and not give satisfactory explanation. Ludicrous.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Zombie]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/317/635332869446230408.jpeg

Incy wincy Delvers, went-a-splat on the wall...

[Echelon]

Just one Delver goes splat on the wall... Unless it's owner has a Lightning Bolt/StP in his/her hand.

Just Abrupt Decay the Delver. Saves you a mana and is harder to interfere with.

[lordofthepit]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

Came for the Elves, stayed for the Super Mario Kart!

[Zombie]

Just one Delver goes splat on the wall... Unless it's owner has a Lightning Bolt/StP in his/her hand.

Just Abrupt Decay the Delver. Saves you a mana and is harder to interfere with.

What's with that realism ;__;
Can't I drown in the Danger of Cool Things? ;_;

[Echelon]

You absolutely can, but that silly conjure-a-spider is not a cool thing :D

[Julian23]

If you really wanna talk about The Danger of Coool Things™, you want to talk about Elvish Skysweeper. Kills Delver, Griselbrands and Emrakuls. Try beating this card with Sneak and Show. Unfortunately, it's activation costs makes it unplayable.

[Echelon]

I believe I've actually killed an Emrakul with it somewhere long, long ago... I even tapped a Priest of Titania to pay for the cost. Can't remember what I sacrificed though.

I found that pretty cool at the time :laugh:

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) for some fun with Umezawa's Jitte! :cool:

[Absolutflipz]

If you really wanna talk about The Danger of Coool Things™, you want to talk about Elvish Skysweeper. Kills Delver, Griselbrands and Emrakuls. Try beating this card with Sneak and Show. Unfortunately, it's activation costs makes it unplayable.

Hornet Queen. Been saying it and playing it for a while. A NO target that doesnt require a board presence, and it's amazing against Delver variants, Emrakul, Grisel, and any fair deck.

[lordofthepit]

Julian beat Special Cup on 150cc! It's been a while since I could do that.

[Kayradis]

I missed that? :/

[Berger]

Hiho,

Im thinking about Sideboard plan atm.

My list:
4x Thoughtsize
3x Swan Song
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Progenitus
1x Natural Order
1x Scavenging Ooze

and
2x Pithing Needle

And its Pithing Needle im thinking on. I know its good against miracles, and SnT ect, but still im not sure...is it really the best solution for those 2 spots? Was bit thinking on cutting one needle and putting in 1 mindbreak drap. But still its useful only for belcher and Tes/And.

What u guys think about those 2 posts what could fit and why? or why should i leave those 2 needles?

[cachipus]

Hiho,

Im thinking about Sideboard plan atm.

My list:
4x Thoughtsize
3x Swan Song
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Progenitus
1x Natural Order
1x Scavenging Ooze

and
2x Pithing Needle

And its Pithing Needle im thinking on. I know its good against miracles, and SnT ect, but still im not sure...is it really the best solution for those 2 spots? Was bit thinking on cutting one needle and putting in 1 mindbreak drap. But still its useful only for belcher and Tes/And.

What u guys think about those 2 posts what could fit and why? or why should i leave those 2 needles?

My side its similar
- 1 Swan Song
+ 1 Choke
-1 Ooze(MB)
+1 Null Rod

Im going to test -1 Thoughtseize and +1 Eternal Witness

[Berger]

ye but why those 2 cards instead of song and ooz(mb) ?

[cachipus]

ye but why those 2 cards instead of song and ooz(mb) ?

Because Null rod its good stuff agains equips, Sensei Divinin Top, Vial(merfolk, Affinity and D&T), LED and my metagame always has MUD or Affinity. The choke explains itself, i hate miracles.

[Pureparkour]

If I'm too poor to afford 4 cradles, but have 2, what's the best thing to do? 2 crop rotation?

[lordofthepit]

Has anyone tried Terastodon instead of Progenitus in the sideboard?

It's a lot more flexible and easier to cast if necessary. It can often present a 1-turn clock instead of a 2-turn clock, plus it's more resilient against edict effects. I find I rarely bring in Progenitus anymore, and against the decks where I would want it (e.g. Jund), I would often rather have a Terastodon instead.

[danyul]

Hiho,

Im thinking about Sideboard plan atm.

My list:
4x Thoughtsize
3x Swan Song
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Progenitus
1x Natural Order
1x Scavenging Ooze

and
2x Pithing Needle

And its Pithing Needle im thinking on. I know its good against miracles, and SnT ect, but still im not sure...is it really the best solution for those 2 spots? Was bit thinking on cutting one needle and putting in 1 mindbreak drap. But still its useful only for belcher and Tes/And.

What u guys think about those 2 posts what could fit and why? or why should i leave those 2 needles?

This really depends on what you expect to face in your meta. Your SB, with 4 discard and 3 Swan Song, already seems adequately prepared for the combo matchup. Mindbreak Trap is not as strong as you think and, other than Belcher, most combo decks are prepared to deal with it. If you really fear faster combo decks that much, then by all means, gear for that matchup (although it seems that you are already adequately prepared for it). But if you want a balanced SB, Pithing Needle is an all-star. It's the strongest option vs Miracles and is not too shabby vs Sneak Attack. I would even grab a Null Rod, as cachipus suggested. That card does work against a bunch of decks right now - including every single deck you listed (although it isn't that great vs Sneak Attack).

Again, it really comes down to what you expect to face. None of us plays at your local shop nor do we know your local meta. So that's a question that you must answer for yourself.


If I'm too poor to afford 4 cradles, but have 2, what's the best thing to do? 2 crop rotation?

Yes. 2 Rotations should be a fine substitute until you can find more Cradles. And if you really are strapped for cash, staying at a 2/2 split is perfectly acceptable. It's definitely not optimal, but cardboard is expensive these days and you gotta do what you gotta do.


Has anyone tried Terastodon instead of Progenitus in the sideboard?

It's a lot more flexible and easier to cast if necessary. It can often present a 1-turn clock instead of a 2-turn clock, plus it's more resilient against edict effects. I find I rarely bring in Progenitus anymore, and against the decks where I would want it (e.g. Jund), I would often rather have a Terastodon instead.

This isn't an unreasonable suggestion. I'm far too conservative to try it myself but I'd be happy to hear any stories from those who have tested it.

[Koke_MTG]

And what about Woodfall Primus?? It can be an option.

[Echelon]

And what about Woodfall Primus?? It can be an option.

That's a 3 turn clock at best. You can use the Terastodon to eat 3 of your own lands, instantly giving you 18 extra power on the field, hence the 1 turn clock :smile:

[dte]

I do not understand how you want to remove Progenitus, which is for me the best SB card

In which MU will you board in terastodon in detriment to proge?

If we take this post as reference for the metagame #1 : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24023-40-Tier-Legacy-Decks-Lists-Singles-Prices-etc-To-be-updated-regularly%28started-2012%29

1 - BUG delver: I believe I prefer progenitus. Terastodon can't kill delver, proge is a faster and safer clock
2 - patriot = stp = Proge>terastodon
3 - Esperblade/Deathblade => see above
4 - RUG, I enter none of them
5 - S&S. Maybe Terastodon is better here, althought I'm not sure as they need only 2 lands to go off and terastodon will give them blockers if you use it to destroy lands.
6 - Miracle: Proge >>> Terastodon. I don't think we would want to side in terastodon in the MU
7 - Ad Nauseam: , I enter none of them
8 - Elves: , I enter none of them
9 - Reanimator , I enter none of them
10 Jund: Proge = terastodon. If you do not destroy anything, terastodon is just a blockable proge. If you destroy grove with, it is a very slow clock. If you destroy our lands with, it's a fast clock but very risky
11 Death and Taxes = stp = Proge>terastodon
12 Shardless BUG Proge = terastodon
13 UR Delver, I enter none of them
14 Imperial Painter , Proge >>> Terastodon.
15 Maverick = stp = Proge>terastodon
16 Nic fit/Pod, Proge>terastodon. I would not enter terastodon in the MU
17 Omni tell, I enter none of them
18 Merfolk, I enter none of them
19 Dredge, I enter none of them
20 Lands, here Terastodon >> Proge.

In my mind there is no match between these two. May you tell us in which MUs you prefer terastodon over progenitus?

Regards,
dte

[shopshopshop]

I'm curious as to why you don't like Progenitus in the RUG matchup. Because they have more mana denial?

[dte]

I'm curious as to why you don't like Progenitus in the RUG matchup. Because they have more mana denial?

Yes. My plan in the RUG MU is to bring in 4 decay and 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege and to side out the NO plan, keeping only 1 NO and 1 behemoth. Their mana denial and their countersuite are to heavy for having a reliable NO plan, which cost too much ressources either when it fails to counterspell (4 mana + 1 card +1 crea) or to their manadenial (dead cards in hand).

The MU is quite easy if we are making CA and they do not have more insects that we have decays.

[D@N]

against rug i dont think u want to just N/O without some sort of backup plan, sooze is a house and them only having lightning bolt means they are at least 2-4-1ing with ruric if not more. Progen is def the plan post board.

Speaking of boards im going into a local mox event and am wondering about my board. its pretty standard except i have teeg and harmonic sliver so i can slow down miracles and moats or drops of honey. For reference:

3 abrupt decay
2 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
2 pithing needle
1 null rod
1 natural order
1 progenitus
1 teeg
1 harmonic sliver

thinking of cutting teeg and all cabal therapy for 4 thoughtseize and 2 chokes.

thoughts? my meta im expecting a couple each of patriot and bug delver and maybe a rug, miracles, d+t, storms, and some other random decks.

[dte]

against rug i dont think u want to just N/O without some sort of backup plan, sooze is a house and them only having lightning bolt means they are at least 2-4-1ing with ruric if not more. Progen is def the plan post board.

scooze is clearly one of our greatest card in the MU, even before DRS, decay and symbiot. But their best way to deal with it is submerge, not bolt which is quite unefficient if you wait to play your scooze with 2 manas up - which you should do if not under too much pressure. I do not like Ruric at all vs rug. It dies to any double block, or block + bolt, or submerge. The fact that they loose 6 lifes in the process is almost nothing, and the obligation to attack is quite annoying. It is not good to NO=>Ruric T2/3 like against storm because of their countersuite, and later on if you have 5-7 mana to cast a NO, isn't behemoth lethal?
And casting NO is not that easy vs rug, so I respectfully disagree with Progen being "def the plan post-board".

Speaking of boards im going into a local mox event and am wondering about my board. its pretty standard except i have teeg and harmonic sliver so i can slow down miracles and moats or drops of honey. For reference:

3 abrupt decay
2 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
2 pithing needle
1 null rod
1 natural order
1 progenitus
1 teeg
1 harmonic sliver

thinking of cutting teeg and all cabal therapy for 4 thoughtseize and 2 chokes.

thoughts? my meta im expecting a couple each of patriot and bug delver and maybe a rug, miracles, d+t, storms, and some other random decks.

If you expect storm, why cutting the cabal + teeg plan? Against bug, I love my lone copy of Wilt Leaf Liege, and against patriot, bug, rug and miracle, the 4th decay is very good. I would remove the harmonic silver, always seems to be underperforming to me and from the listed deck, only comes in against miracle. What deck is playing drop of honey??

[dte]

Good luck too elves players at the BOM!
Julian, we hope that you will have a finish as good as the last one!

[haganbmj]

Played another local event and went 4-0.
2-1 v Deadguy Ale
2-1 v BUG Delver (with multiple Marsh Casualties in the board)
2-1 v GW Prison
2-0 v Noble Fish (bahra_'s list)

I've been running a fairly stock GBw 60, with Viridian Shaman and Progenitus in the main as my third Natural Order target on account of my local stores being fairly combo light. Ooze has been cut to the board to accommodate the space.
Coming up on the StarCityGames open in Knoxville next week, however, I'm looking to tone my board a bit more towards a wider field.

Recently, I've been playing with this to moderate levels of success. Pridemage has felt a bit niche, and Teeg generally feels underwhelming. The Ooze as well feels a bit awkward to board in, and I'd rather it be in the main deck if anywhere.

2 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar

I was suggested tonight to try out Elvish Champion if I'm fearing Zealous Persecution or Golgari Charm/Marsh Casualties from BUG decks this coming weekend, and that doesn't sound too far fetched considering how many those kinds of lists seem to have access to. At the moment though I'm just trying to figure out if I have some form of gaping hole worth filling.

[D@N]

If you expect storm, why cutting the cabal + teeg plan? Against bug, I love my lone copy of Wilt Leaf Liege, and against patriot, bug, rug and miracle, the 4th decay is very good. I would remove the harmonic silver, always seems to be underperforming to me and from the listed deck, only comes in against miracle. What deck is playing drop of honey??

if true name gives rug fits then why wouldnt you agree that the actual progenitus wouldnt be better?. u are right that games 2/3 ruric is bad because of submerge but you should be boarding it out for progen anyway. ruric is basicly there to nut their delvers or geese game one then board out for something else. teeg was in my list originally for miracles but its a do nothing since they just swords/sweep which is what i was trying to stop. out of storm and blue decks there is def. more blue decks especially miracles so i think having pin point hate might be better vs. storm until i can get something going.

[Echelon]

TNN doesn't require another creature in play when cast, is 1 mana cheaper and often has counter back-up. TNN-players have a much easier time getting it onto the battlefield then we do when trying to land NO-Pro.

[dte]

Played another local event and went 4-0.
2-1 v Deadguy Ale
2-1 v BUG Delver (with multiple Marsh Casualties in the board)
2-1 v GW Prison
2-0 v Noble Fish (bahra_'s list)

I've been running a fairly stock GBw 60, with Viridian Shaman and Progenitus in the main as my third Natural Order target on account of my local stores being fairly combo light. Ooze has been cut to the board to accommodate the space.
Coming up on the StarCityGames open in Knoxville next week, however, I'm looking to tone my board a bit more towards a wider field.

Recently, I've been playing with this to moderate levels of success. Pridemage has felt a bit niche, and Teeg generally feels underwhelming. The Ooze as well feels a bit awkward to board in, and I'd rather it be in the main deck if anywhere.

Ooze is very good in the main, but if it isn't - which feels wrong to me, as it is overperforming vs bug & rug - it should be in the SB.

2 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar

I was suggested tonight to try out Elvish Champion if I'm fearing Zealous Persecution or Golgari Charm/Marsh Casualties from BUG decks this coming weekend, and that doesn't sound too far fetched considering how many those kinds of lists seem to have access to. At the moment though I'm just trying to figure out if I have some form of gaping hole worth filling.


If you want a lord effect, try Wilt-Leaf Liege. I play it myself and wouldn't think of removing it from my SB. It is far better than Elvish champion as it resists to decay, bolt, punishing fire & Rough/tumble, which are all in jund/rug/bug where you want to put a lord effect in.


About proge vs rug, I do not have any doubt about the effect of proge once into play.
But, like echelon said well, proge is far harder to put into play vs rug for the following reasons:
- 4 manas instead of 3;
- noncrea => spell pierce;
- is played in blue deck which have often counter back up;
- card disadventage if you get countered.

It's sure that NO-pro is a valid pland post board. But you have to quit something in order to bring in some decays. I just prefer to cut in the NO-plan than the glimpse one because the latter will always let you get some card advantage early on, while NO is often card disadvantage.

[Lemnear]

Looks like Julian is out in round 5 after 3 losses in a row (started with 2 byes) :((

[dte]

What did he loose to?

[Lemnear]

What did he loose to?

I don't know yet. The field looks iffy overall. Barely 1/5 of all decks are BUG Delver/Shardles

[venice]

I think "Berger" finished 1st at BoM after swiss. Congrats! :smile: Will be following the Top8 stream tomorrow morning!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Looks like Julian is out in round 5 after 3 losses in a row (started with 2 byes) :((

Bummer. I suppose if you win, write, and stream enough that people will be more ready for you. Well, he can't win them all--but it sure fun when he does.

[AznSeal]

What time does coverage start tomorrow in CST?

[Julian23]

What did he loose to?

Miracles, Toxic Deluge Control and Esper. Faced 6 Toxic Deluge over the course of 3 rounds. Against Miracles I had the game on lockdown with Null Rod (for his EE) and Needle on Jace but he successfully blindflipped CB two times, then hit a natural Entreat the Angels. Successfully Therapied him two times, hitting FoW and Counterspell, but he still had the SCM to counter my otherwise lethal NO.

Against Grixis Deluge Control, I successfully Therapied him for Toxic Deluge on turn2, then flashbacked for Cage. He ripped Enevelope for my NO on the next turn, then drew Toxic Deluge...:eyebrow:....:frown:

Honestly, more than anything this felt like the breakout tournament for Toxic Deluge. In the maindeck. The meta is so hostile towards Elves right now, I really feel the blue-splash has to make a comeback. Be it Envelope or Swan Song, I'm not sure but we can't just keep losing to that card.

[D@N]

@julian: sorry to hear about the bad beats but im wondering what was ur decklist like?

[dte]

Miracles, Toxic Deluge Control and Esper. Faced 6 Toxic Deluge over the course of 3 rounds. Against Miracles I had the game on lockdown with Null Rod (for his EE) and Needle on Jace but he successfully blindflipped CB two times, then hit a natural Entreat the Angels. Successfully Therapied him two times, hitting FoW and Counterspell, but he still had the SCM to counter my otherwise lethal NO.

Against Grixis Deluge Control, I successfully Therapied him for Toxic Deluge on turn2, then flashbacked for Cage. He ripped Enevelope for my NO on the next turn, then drew Toxic Deluge...:eyebrow:....:frown:

Honestly, more than anything this felt like the breakout tournament for Toxic Deluge. In the maindeck. The meta is so hostile towards Elves right now, I really feel the blue-splash has to make a comeback. Be it Envelope or Swan Song, I'm not sure but we can't just keep losing to that card.

Looks like you were quite unlucky..
On the swan song topic, it seems to have work well for Meciek Berger.
I never playtested it, as it always seemed to me that the beatdown plan is very relevant in the MUs I would side it in. But I will probably test a little bit it, and envelopp as well.

[haganbmj]

Ooze is very good in the main, but if it isn't - which feels wrong to me, as it is overperforming vs bug & rug - it should be in the SB.

If you want a lord effect, try Wilt-Leaf Liege. I play it myself and wouldn't think of removing it from my SB. It is far better than Elvish champion as it resists to decay, bolt, punishing fire & Rough/tumble, which are all in jund/rug/bug where you want to put a lord effect in.

Ooze is fantastic in a few matchups, I'll give it that. I might try and squeeze him back into the main, maybe as the 61st card.

Wilt-Leaf Liege, now there's a card I overlooked, yeah that sounds like a fantastic choice.

@Julian, quite a string of poor matchups there.

[Julian23]

My buddy split the finals of the Big Legacy Trial for the next BoM today with Elves. So not all hope is lost. :cool:

Including Swan Songs.

[Lemnear]

I's still prefer Wren's Run Packmaster over Liege. Deathtouch Army Feat. Cradle is insane

[dte]

I's still prefer Wren's Run Packmaster over Liege. Deathtouch Army Feat. Cradle is insane

I've never tried it, but it deserves a try for sure. I believe he may be good in more MUs.

[Lemnear]

I've never tried it, but it deserves a try for sure. I believe he may be good in more MUs.

The Champion-ability even protects an elf from sorcery-speed sweepers

[dte]

Yes, it could help.

On the other hand, the champion ability must feel very clunky when you have a board like dryad/symbiot/elf, or any board with only one elf in general, because every removal wil be such a blow-out and symbiot can't protect from it...

I used to side WLL in every non-W fair MU (plus against esper vs zealous persecution) and have never been disappointed by it. Do you board WRP in the same MUs? Maybe miracle too?

It basicaly des the same as WLL as a non decayable, non boltable, GSZable elf which helps fighting against global -1/-1 effects.

But that's all theory for me, I will definitely try it.

[Lemnear]

Yes, it could help.

On the other hand, the champion ability must feel very clunky when you have a board like dryad/symbiot/elf, or any board with only one elf in general, because every removal wil be such a blow-out and symbiot can't protect from it...

I used to side WLL in every non-W fair MU (plus against esper vs zealous persecution) and have never been disappointed by it. Do you board WRP in the same MUs? Maybe miracle too?

It basicaly des the same as WLL as a non decayable, non boltable, GSZable elf which helps fighting against global -1/-1 effects.

But that's all theory for me, I will definitely try it.

I'm looking for wider application like against decks with Batterskull or Liliana which can't handle a flurry of deathtouching 2/2's. WRP is a 5/5 itself and leaves behind a creature after a sweeper. I dunno how to evaluate the WLL's discard-clause vs. the champion requirement of WRP. The idea lacks intense testing so far

[dte]

I believe that the best way to do so is first to see in which MUs we will put them in.

Very often, it will be the same for both, as the requirement is a crea good on is own, which cost 4 manas (decay & GSZ) and which is at least 4 in def (bolt) which helps us to resist well -1/-1 sweeper.
I do believe for this application, both of them are good.
So versus BUGs, both are really good - which is the first reason for this slot.

WLL => + in MUs like rug/jund
Probably against removal heavy (jund/rug), it's easier to fetch for WLL because you can't do so with WRP if you have only one elf and you suspect bolt/punishing fire/decay. Again it'is only theorycrafting, without any test support for WRP, but it makes sense for me.

WRP => + vs D&T, maybe miracle?
WRP should be good vs D&T, while WLL isn't, and WRP may be playable against miracle as a clock on his own, and that we can get a little value of championning visionnary.
In these 2 MUs I was never siding in WLL, so if WRP is good enough to be sided in, that may be a good +. Lemnear, do you side it in vs miracle?

[Lemnear]

Yes. 4cc isn't easy to prevent for them and Jace or Terminus don't present easy solutions. I like the application against spot removal or liliana most

[Berger]

Hello, i canon only say that Swan Song does MUCH! But why... Ill write later when i get back home.

Toxic deluge = Pay 2 life, opponent discards a card and put a 2/2 flying token :p ect

[dte]

Against liliana, I defenitely prefer WLL (before test). Very good against the +1, and when you play it you're not -1crea to have the -2 remove your WRP which is your win condition.

[Berger]

Hiho,

Bout Swan Song:
I think Elves decks need to use SS.
Decks we need to be afraid are: Storm and Miracles (dont be afraid of spanish inquisition, or belcher if u r planning to play on top tables :P).
We have to consider 2 options 8-7 discard (+teeg), or 4 discard + 3 counters. As it goes for Storm, discard is much better. But we need also to focus on other machups, if we have CTherapy in hand where we play against miracles/SnT/ or other Brainstorm/Ponder Decks even Sylvan Library, its not so good. Moslty they play from top of library, if they keep terminus/entreat on top we wont be able to survive it. Many times i was Saved by SS after they ponder for Pyroclasm/deluge, or during BOM 9 where i SS Toxic Deluge found from Sylvan Library. There are just too many things that avoid discard in late game. Thats allso why 4Therapy + 3 SS is in my opinion best solution for SB.

@Julian - if u face 2 Toxic deluges in 1 game even SS wont save ye :P

Bout pitching needle - Needs to stay :)

I lost in SF against a 4C Loam, its not good matchup for Elves. And unfortunetly there will be more of thise decks in the future, dont think SS is good against em, but was trying all the time make my opponent think i have SS in my hand. Prob NO + Progenitus, and 3x Abrupt should be ok. I put 2 Pitching needle during that match, but dont think they r needed to protect my Progenitus... or maybe Im wrong.

[dte]

Hiho,

Bout Swan Song:
I think Elves decks need to use SS.
Decks we need to be afraid are: Storm and Miracles (dont be afraid of spanish inquisition, or belcher if u r planning to play on top tables :P).
We have to consider 2 options 8-7 discard (+teeg), or 4 discard + 3 counters. As it goes for Storm, discard is much better. But we need also to focus on other machups, if we have CTherapy in hand where we play against miracles/SnT/ or other Brainstorm/Ponder Decks even Sylvan Library, its not so good. Moslty they play from top of library, if they keep terminus/entreat on top we wont be able to survive it. Many times i was Saved by SS after they ponder for Pyroclasm/deluge, or during BOM 9 where i SS Toxic Deluge found from Sylvan Library. There are just too many things that avoid discard in late game. Thats allso why 4Therapy + 3 SS is in my opinion best solution for SB.

@Julien - if u face 2 Toxic deluges in 1 game even SS wont save ye :P

Bout pitching needle - Needs to stay :)

I lost in SF against a 4C Loam, its not good matchup for Elves. And unfortunetly there will be more of thise decks in the future, dont think SS is good against em, but was trying all the time make my opponent think i have SS in my hand. Prob NO + Progenitus, and 3x Abrupt should be ok. I put 2 Pitching needle during that match, but dont think they r needed to protect my Progenitus... or maybe Im wrong.

The problem of removing some discard is that therapy get worst with each discard we remove. A hand with Thougthseize + CT or 2*CT is golden vs any combo deck, while 1 swan song + 1 CT is kind of meh in comparison, with a totally destroyed aggro plan (of course a hand with 2 hate is good, but far less than the previous one)...

In general, I want to try envelop more than swan song. It is less good vs Sneak Attack, but otherwise it is quite solid and without any drawback.

[Berger]

But remember that Envelope wont counter Counterbalance or Sneak attack, and many others Enchantments. It allso allows you to counter instants, for exaple when u cast NO u have backup for their counter.

Trust me... SS ! :)

[LeoCop 90]

Is the loam deck so hard to face ? (list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7248&f=LE )

I mean, it can be hard to face gaddock teeg , punishing fire, waste with life from the loam.... but the only real problem presideboard is chalice of the void. If they don't have chalice you shoul win.... even if they have it, we have viridian shaman. Post board they have 2 golgari charm and 3 canonists but we have decay... And i like the fact that they play no counterspells and no discard

Overall it seems to me an even matchup....

Congrats for the great result anyway !

[andrebonotto]

Hello, i canon only say that Swan Song does MUCH! But why... Ill write later when i get back home.

Toxic deluge = Pay 2 life, opponent discards a card and put a 2/2 flying token :p ect

Hello,

Congrats on your 4th place! This is great! :smile:

THIS (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13611&iddeck=99972) is your decklist, right?

The 2nd Birchlore was added in order to reinforce your chances of having access to :u:, so that you could cast more easily your Swan Songs? Or was there another reason?

Besides Combo/Miracles, was there any other match where you sided in SS?

...

Also, have you been "hindered" in any way by cutting your 2nd Forest to fit your Tropical Island?

Sometimes I even feel that "only 2" basic Forests are not safe enough :tongue: ...

Regards,

- André

[dte]

But remember that Envelope wont counter Counterbalance or Sneak attack, and many others Enchantments. It allso allows you to counter instants, for exaple when u cast NO u have backup for their counter.

Trust me... SS ! :)

Ok, I want to trust you. And you're not the only one advocating swan song. I follow the elves thread on a French legacy website and several people are strongly supporting the Swan Song plan too, which I've never tried.
I will like to try it against miracle first, as you describe it as the MU in which swan song over discard help the most (thanks to top), so what are your strategic plan and your boarding plan in the MU?
I guess it should change a little bit from the classic one, as the aggro plan must be hindered by the 2/2, and as the combo plan should be powered up by the chances to counter Fow & terminus.
Would you be kind enough to tell us your in/out for the MU?

Also, of course I (and I'm sure all the other here) want to congratulate you and are eager to read an eventual report and impression about your list.

[Berger]

@and~ - Birchlore rangers are very good if u play agains creature removal decks, they r bit better on those matchups than heritage, witch u side out or dies fast... But not only SS was the reason. U have Ruric thar in your main, also Abrupt Decays and thoughtseize in your SB. Birchlor can easilly allow me to hide tropical island or fetch for bayou(DS). Dont need to fetch Tropical if u dont have to, its good if opponent didnt saw it at 1st game, cuz he might think u play discard SB not U(ss) SB. Or if u have only Birchlor he and tapped mana he might forget u use blue source. 2 is enough 1 is too low.

In SF against 4C Loam i fetched for Tropical, didnt use it to feed Ooze at end of his turns while i could, cuz I had only lands in hand and was trying act like i have SS, dunno if it worked. Forgot to ask my oponent :P

P.S. Dont forget bout PROGENITUS DRAWS :D


@dte~ - I dont know is SS best solution, Its only best of those witch i figured out and tested. Mostly i tested it with my RL mate(Tomasz Jablonski who made top8 with miracles). Maybe there r better, so if u guys have ideas ill be happy to hear it. Just Envelope aint good, except mirror. For miracles its better but slows your aggro plan.

SS sideboard
Miracle:
+3 Abrupt, +1 NO, +1 Progenitus, +2 Pitching Needle, +3 Swan Song
-2 Heritage, -2 Glimpse, -2 Nettle, -1 Viridian, -1 Craterhoof, -1 Elvis Visionary.

Storm:
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 NO (here CTherapys would be much better instead of SS, cuz its not the deck that plays "from the top" as much as other)
-1 Hoof, -1 Dryad Arbor, -2 Visionary, -3 Symbiote, -1 Nettle

SnT:
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +2 Pitching Needle
-1 Crater, -1 Glimpse, -1 Ruric, -2 Heritage, -2 Nettle, -1 Quirion

Reanimator:
+4 Thoughtseize, +1 Ooze, +3 Swan song
-1 Viridian, -1 Heritage, -1 Symbiote, -1 Visionary, -1 Ruric, -1 Arbor, -1 Glimpse

Shardless BUG:
(+ 2 Swan Song when im on draw, When on play +2 Therapy) but thinking on using SS all the time cuz of sylvan library.

Thats my SB plan while using SS, if u guys have any other proposition ill be hapy to read and test it. During BOM Trials played like 13 Games (since 9:00 till 22:00), Lost 1 to RUG, 1 Conceded to unknown guy bcuz i was hungry and it was late night, and 3x i conceded for my RL friend witch i met, I had 2 byes from wining Bom trial in Poland so i played only to make their way for byes easier :)

At Main event i met:
1 - Bye
2 - Bye
3 - Storm 2-1 (opponent was on 8 life he Chain of vapor my Ruric, and he met my Swan Song)
4 - Esper 2-0 (SS in Toxic Deluge)
5 - Merfolk 2-0
6 - Death and Taxes 2-0
7 - Shardless BuG 2-1
8 - Bant Control 2-0
9 - DnT - ID
10 - Miracles - ID

SF:
1 - Death and Taxes 2-1
QF
2 - 4C Loam 0-2 (Just watched that match and heard Levy comments - I didnt play sentinel cuz it was my only creature in hand and was keeping pressure with Ooze, and if i would draw glimpse next turn i would have dead card in hand(Glimpse,Land,Needle) allways leave 1 elf in hand in that case... Draw Quirion so played then Nettle, and didnt use 2nd glimpse while i had mana floating cuz wanted to have backup in case he kills my elf and he would stop my combo or i draw expensive one like shaman or visionary. Same was with fetching.

Thats a short story. In SF and QF i was bit tired after sleepless nigh. But dont think I could do anythink against 4C loam while i didnt draw anything to combo off while casting Glimpse, + he used 3 Abrupts and Golgari charm.

[LeoCop 90]

About Wren's Run Packmaster : maybe it is obvious, but I'd recommend championing elvish visionary with him if possible, so when packmaster dies you get an extra card with visionary.

[Lemnear]

About Wren's Run Packmaster : maybe it is obvious, but I'd recommend championing elvish visionary with him if possible, so when packmaster dies you get an extra card with visionary.

Or Champion a DRS so you have an mana-dork in play after a sweeper. Depends a lot in what your field looks like. I like that the Packmaster dodges spot removal via Symbiote.

[cachipus]

SS sideboard
Miracle:
+3 Abrupt, +1 NO, +1 Progenitus, +2 Pitching Needle, +3 Swan Song
-2 Heritage, -2 Glimpse, -2 Nettle, -1 Viridian, -1 Craterhoof, -1 Elvis Visionary.

Why -1 Elvish Visionary?

[dte]

@ Berger: First thanks a lot for your deteiled answer!
I will try your configurations, which differ a little bit from what I will have try - which imply that it was a good idea to ask you what are your boarding plans.


@and~ - Birchlore rangers are very good if u play agains creature removal decks, they r bit better on those matchups than heritage, witch u side out or dies fast... But not only SS was the reason. U have Ruric thar in your main, also Abrupt Decays and thoughtseize in your SB. Birchlor can easilly allow me to hide tropical island or fetch for bayou(DS). Dont need to fetch Tropical if u dont have to, its good if opponent didnt saw it at 1st game, cuz he might think u play discard SB not U(ss) SB. Or if u have only Birchlor he and tapped mana he might forget u use blue source. 2 is enough 1 is too low.

In SF against 4C Loam i fetched for Tropical, didnt use it to feed Ooze at end of his turns while i could, cuz I had only lands in hand and was trying act like i have SS, dunno if it worked. Forgot to ask my oponent :P

P.S. Dont forget bout PROGENITUS DRAWS :D


@dte~ - I dont know is SS best solution, Its only best of those witch i figured out and tested. Mostly i tested it with my RL mate(Tomasz Jablonski who made top8 with miracles). Maybe there r better, so if u guys have ideas ill be happy to hear it. Just Envelope aint good, except mirror. For miracles its better but slows your aggro plan.

SS sideboard
Miracle:
+3 Abrupt, +1 NO, +1 Progenitus, +2 Pitching Needle, +3 Swan Song
-2 Heritage, -2 Glimpse, -2 Nettle, -1 Viridian, -1 Craterhoof, -1 Elvis Visionary.


Even OTP, no love for Thoughtseize? I always found that with them, we were favored post-board OTP, while they were underperforming OTD (mainly because we can't remove top and they could answer with BS). Also, you keep 4 Cradles and Ruric?
I will test your configuration vs Einherjer decklist post SB.

Storm:
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 NO (here CTherapys would be much better instead of SS, cuz its not the deck that plays "from the top" as much as other)
-1 Hoof, -1 Dryad Arbor, -2 Visionary, -3 Symbiote, -1 Nettle

I prefer to cut 1 more visionary and keep one more symbiote for the glimpse plan. Why do you think that Visionary>symbiot in the MU?

SnT:
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +2 Pitching Needle
-1 Crater, -1 Glimpse, -1 Ruric, -2 Heritage, -2 Nettle, -1 Quirion

Why not -1 Arbor, and why cutting glimpse plan before the visio/symbiot plan?

Reanimator:
+4 Thoughtseize, +1 Ooze, +3 Swan song
-1 Viridian, -1 Heritage, -1 Symbiote, -1 Visionary, -1 Ruric, -1 Arbor, -1 Glimpse

I will have cut an additional Visionary before a glimpse. Why the contrary?

Shardless BUG:
(+ 2 Swan Song when im on draw, When on play +2 Therapy) but thinking on using SS all the time cuz of sylvan library.

Thats my SB plan while using SS, if u guys have any other proposition ill be hapy to read and test it. During BOM Trials played like 13 Games (since 9:00 till 22:00), Lost 1 to RUG, 1 Conceded to unknown guy bcuz i was hungry and it was late night, and 3x i conceded for my RL friend witch i met, I had 2 byes from wining Bom trial in Poland so i played only to make their way for byes easier :)

At Main event i met:
1 - Bye
2 - Bye
3 - Storm 2-1 (opponent was on 8 life he Chain of vapor my Ruric, and he met my Swan Song)
4 - Esper 2-0 (SS in Toxic Deluge)
5 - Merfolk 2-0
6 - Death and Taxes 2-0
7 - Shardless BuG 2-1
8 - Bant Control 2-0
9 - DnT - ID
10 - Miracles - ID

SF:
1 - Death and Taxes 2-1
QF
2 - 4C Loam 0-2 (Just watched that match and heard Levy comments - I didnt play sentinel cuz it was my only creature in hand and was keeping pressure with Ooze, and if i would draw glimpse next turn i would have dead card in hand(Glimpse,Land,Needle) allways leave 1 elf in hand in that case... Draw Quirion so played then Nettle, and didnt use 2nd glimpse while i had mana floating cuz wanted to have backup in case he kills my elf and he would stop my combo or i draw expensive one like shaman or visionary. Same was with fetching.

Thats a short story. In SF and QF i was bit tired after sleepless nigh. But dont think I could do anythink against 4C loam while i didnt draw anything to combo off while casting Glimpse, + he used 3 Abrupts and Golgari charm.

Again, Thanks & Congrats!

[Julian23]

New GP, new Legacy Sideevent. Spoiler: I didn't win this time but it was still absolutely awesome; here's why:

I started out 4-0 against Shardless BUG, Death & Taxes, ANT Storm and UWr Delver. Super cool. In Round 5, the top two tables had 3 Elves players. Unfortunately, I proceeded to lose the dice roll two times in the now following mirror matches and finish in 6th place. I even almost got the turn2 kill on the draw, fizzling with 3 active Glimpse.

I'm still super happy to see Elves perform that well. Tried a sideboard with 3 Swan Song and I'm probably a bit biased because they were so awful in the mirror, but even against Storm, I still feel like I want to find something else. I still think that fighting Toxic Deluge and Miralces is #1 priority...but I'd be very happy to find something that also works in the mirror; it's by far not top priority though, considering how random the mirror is.

Also, having a GREAT time with the guys at the #WarsawVilla. Will post a lot more content on the trip on my Twitter (@itsJulian23) once I return to Munich :)

[Berger]

@Julan: True, SS aint so good against mirror(Im thinking on Darkblasst vs Elves and DnT). Exept Storm, u didnt play with the maches that u could use it. But why u think its so bad against Storm?(I know discard is better).

Im sure that if you would play againsst SnT or Miracles your opinion would be differend...

P.S. There would be 4 elves in top 2 tables in last round but unfortunetlu I forgot to take my deck, and had to play standard. :P

[Trashwinkle]

Hi everyone,

Two decks have recently made Top 8 with 2 Setessan Tactics in main deck (+1 or 2 in the side)

What do you think about this new card ?

[HSCK]

I came here to ask the same thing, highly irregular tech.

[Julian23]

I'm liking the tech because it also kills Delver. And by also I mean that it's mainly a way to block Golgari Charm etc. Against Toxic Deluge, it will only work a single time anyways :wink:.

The only problem I see is that they just cut 2 lands (Forest & Dryad) in order to include it. That's not exactly how (at least) I roll...
Will be playing it though to find out how it's dynamic affects gameplay. Still thinking that turning towards Planeswalkers looks more promising.

Just make sure to give your opponent your best Tylder Durden impression when you play it.

[Lemnear]

I'm confused. I can see how it can act as a green Wrath of God, but I don't know if I would want that :/

[yaWgnorW]

It is interesting tech, but I agree I don't think I would want to lose a land for it. If its primary goal is to stop those Golgari Charms & the first Toxic Deluge, wouldn't it hurt us when it comes to playing out our elves, having to leave the necessary amount of mana open to protect? Or is it rather just saving only the critical elves?
At the moment I like it more as tech to deal with Delver, SFM and whatever other low toughness guy we can eliminate, but don't know if it fully saves us from Deluge and whatnot...

Anyway, just a question given the statement 2 posts up, what Planeswalkers can be considered for this deck if that is an option?

[Zombie]

I'm partial to Garruk Relentless - functions as removal, and is a non-creature clock for the Miracles matchup, which that deck just really hates the guts of. Provides a bit of Deluge proofing too, against the more control-oriented builds. Xenagos might also be a thing.

[M+1]

About Setessan Tactics, if you are reffering to this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13629) result from the "Aarhus Legacy Open" on tcdecks, it is just now being discussed (http://inferno-magic.dk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22425) as fake by some Legacy folks from the city of Aarhus, Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarhus). As far as we know such a tournament never took place, and all the names in the top 8 are fictional. The decklists are probably copied from somewhere else with small changes. Why anyone would create a false tournament top 8 and submit it, to promote Setessan Tactics in Elves, or for whatever obscure reason, we don't know?

[shopshopshop]

My plan is to try Wildspeaker, Primal Hunter, and Relentless. I think they'd all be pretty strong against removal-heavy control decks like Miracles, Shardless BUG, that sort of thing.

[danyul]

About Setessan Tactics, if you are reffering to this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13629) result from the "Aarhus Legacy Open" on tcdecks, it is just now being discussed (http://inferno-magic.dk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22425) as fake by some Legacy folks from the city of Aarhus, Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarhus). As far as we know such a tournament never took place, and all the names in the top 8 are fictional. The decklists are probably copied from somewhere else with small changes. Why anyone would create a false tournament top 8 and submit it, to promote Setessan Tactics in Elves, or for whatever obscure reason, we don't know?

LOL. I snap bought 2 foil Tactics when people brought it up. Just in case.

It was only a $4 mistake. I've done worse.

[yaWgnorW]

LOL. I snap bought 2 foil Tactics when people brought it up. Just in case.

It was only a $4 mistake. I've done worse.

Just had to laugh at this one...haha. Right now is this confirmed as fake or is it still thought of as fake?

One way or another the list came from somewhere, and to go to the trouble of creating a fake top 8...is pretty odd, especially when the other decks are rather stock.

[Julian23]

LOL. I snap bought 2 foil Tactics when people brought it up. Just in case.

It was only a $4 mistake. I've done worse.

As Michael Jackson put it: You are not alone, Dan.

[danyul]

http://image.blingee.com/images19/content/output/000/000/000/7c0/779019369_940296.gif

[Elvish Visionary]

Does anyone thing that Autum's Veil is worth playing main or in board since resolving Natural Order is pretty critical? http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=autumn's+veil

I also used to run a Tendrils of Agony version of Elves in 2011 and did rather successfulhttp://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/14028; and have always thought that Banefire would be fun. Anyone think these could be viable in today's meta?

Oh and I am also in the process of foiling out the Elf deck; all I need is fetchlands at this point - Cradles in the mail :)

[Lemnear]

Does anyone thing that Autum's Veil is worth playing main or in board since resolving Natural Order is pretty critical? http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=autumn's+veil

I also used to run a Tendrils of Agony version of Elves in 2011 and did rather successfulhttp://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/14028; and have always thought that Banefire would be fun. Anyone think these could be viable in today's meta?

Oh and I am also in the process of foiling out the Elf deck; all I need is fetchlands at this point - Cradles in the mail :)

If NO is critical, run 4 instead of crappy AV's. The whole Grapeshot/Tendrils/Emrakul combo build is a thing of the past because it was fragile and dependant on Glimpse.

[yaWgnorW]

My plan is to try Wildspeaker, Primal Hunter, and Relentless. I think they'd all be pretty strong against removal-heavy control decks like Miracles, Shardless BUG, that sort of thing.

Even though we are a strong mana-producing deck I have a hard time imagining us using a Planeswalker above 4cc, but thats just me and I could be way off here. Since its on the page though, the suggestion of Relentless has merit, so did Xenagos for that matter. Xenagos has that synergy factor with cradle (not to mention it is a cradle) but its likely a facade. I think I like the haste aspect most about Xenagos...basically it can immediately ping other Planeswalkers or life totals post wipe. Both produce tokens, reasonable +1's, etc, but don't know how viable if at all viable truthfully. Hell Domri Rade is even an "option" but doesn't really do anything for the heavy board control MUs.



Does anyone thing that Autum's Veil is worth playing main or in board since resolving Natural Order is pretty critical? http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=autumn's+veil

I also used to run a Tendrils of Agony version of Elves in 2011 and did rather successfulhttp://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/14028; and have always thought that Banefire would be fun. Anyone think these could be viable in today's meta?

Oh and I am also in the process of foiling out the Elf deck; all I need is fetchlands at this point - Cradles in the mail :)


Yeah I agree that the time of Storm Elves and Elf ball has past. Autum's Veil is one of those facades too. We also have sideboard cards that can help "clear a path" or "counter" back, that are much more useful in other match ups anyway. NO & Elves has been fighting through counter magic for a while now.

[phoenix4]

So, I've traded most of the deck with a friend, and I'm now taking it to my first tournament tonight...
So far, my only experience with the deck is goldfishing, but I absolutely love all the little tricks the deck can perform :D

But a quick question: Has Emrakul only fallen out of the deck, since Craterhoof most often kills the turn it comes down and we don't wanna take the chance in that extra turn? :)

[Julian23]

So, I've traded most of the deck with a friend, and I'm now taking it to my first tournament tonight...
So far, my only experience with the deck is goldfishing, but I absolutely love all the little tricks the deck can perform :D

But a quick question: Has Emrakul only fallen out of the deck, since Craterhoof most often kills the turn it comes down and we don't wanna take the chance in that extra turn? :)

Emrakul is out because it costs :1::5:. It requires a much stronger commitment; we don't do that anymore as Natural Order is much easier to set up.

[phoenix4]

Emrakul is out because it costs :1::5:. It requires a much stronger commitment; we don't do that anymore as Natural Order is much easier to set up.

I see, thanks for the reply Julian :)

[Dice_Box]

Back to the top form again, feels like a rotating door.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

We've moved back again. I wonder what triggered that.

Edit--I see I posted this just a few seconds behind. :)

[shopshopshop]

Perhaps an Elves! player in the top 8 of the BoM?

[Zombie]

Maindeck (Swan-Blossom-Ruric build)
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Llanowar Elves

4x Quirion Ranger
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary

1x Birchlore Rangers
3x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel

2x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Viridian Shaman

4x Gaea's Cradle
2x Dryad Arbor
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
2x Forest

3x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills

4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order


Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

2x Bitterblossom
2x Pithing Needle

3x Swan Song
3x Thoughtseize


2 Blossoms vs. Miracles, need to do testing but should be nice. Might prove to be a house vs. RUG, too, and helps with Deluge recovery, but that's pure speculation at this point.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy DE with #Elves! Join us over at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian and let's have some fun trying out Zombie's tech of Bitterblossom!

[danyul]

I'm at work and cant watch :cry:. But please do let us know how that tech works out!

[yaWgnorW]

I know its only been a day roughly, any thing to share on Bitterblossom? I tired it online, but never found any relevant match ups where I would want it anyway.

[Zombie]

Our resident control player went to play board games, and from what I could see it didn't get to do any work vs. Miracles on stream either.

[Berger]

Im curious about those Bitterblossom. Can u guys tell me how does it work against other matchups? not only miracles?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Im curious about those Bitterblossom. Can u guys tell me how does it work against other matchups? not only miracles?

I understand the logic behind BB, but why would our deck need it? We already play 30 creatures. Yes you can rebuild with a single BB after a sweeper, but you can also rebuild with a single Elf if you're playing Jitte. I really think we're missing Jitte from the aggro equation, not more dudes. My plan for like a year against Miracles has been Jitte and Sylvan Library which is now supplemented by Needle.

[yaWgnorW]

I understand the logic behind BB, but why would our deck need it? We already play 30 creatures. Yes you can rebuild with a single BB after a sweeper, but you can also rebuild with a single Elf if you're playing Jitte. I really think we're missing Jitte from the aggro equation, not more dudes. My plan for like a year against Miracles has been Jitte and Sylvan Library which is now supplemented by Needle.

Would you share your board? And do you put Jitte or Library into any other match up?

[Zombie]

I understand the logic behind BB, but why would our deck need it? We already play 30 creatures. Yes you can rebuild with a single BB after a sweeper, but you can also rebuild with a single Elf if you're playing Jitte. I really think we're missing Jitte from the aggro equation, not more dudes. My plan for like a year against Miracles has been Jitte and Sylvan Library which is now supplemented by Needle.

Jitte could be pretty amazing. I'll test the Blossoms some anyway just to see what's up, even if it's nothing. I fucking hate that Terminus is a shuffle and not a destroy, Oath of Ghouls would be hilarious otherwise. But yeah, Library and Jitte does seem solid and has better applications vs. Delver and the like.

[dte]

I do not see why Jitte should be so amazing against miracle?
To have any effect it should have counters, and then boost a creature which should not be killed. It seems narrow for me.

Library/choke/winter orb/planeswalkers are all great cards against miracle. The problem is that they are almost only good against miracle (except choke).

[yaWgnorW]

I do not see why Jitte should be so amazing against miracle?
To have any effect it should have counters, and then boost a creature which should not be killed. It seems narrow for me.

Library/choke/winter orb/planeswalkers are all great cards against miracle. The problem is that they are almost only good against miracle (except choke).

I like Winter Orb in a variety of fair match ups, but probably not something I'd choose over other cards.

[Tammit67]

Top 4 split the 100+ man 40 duals event in Coopersburg PA today. Played against BUG delver, Death and Taxes, Lands, RUG delver(?), Lands again. Double ID later played RUG delver for entry into top 4.

A Comedy Of Errors:

4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Llanowar Elves

4x Quirion Ranger
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary

2x Birchlore Rangers
3x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel

2x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Viridian Shaman

4x Gaea's Cradle
2x Dryad Arbor
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
2x Forest

2x Misty Rainforest
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs

4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order


Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle
3x Swan Song
3x Thoughtseize
2x Disfigure
1x Scavenging ooze

Oozes, Quirion ranger, and Viridian Shaman MVPs. Disfigure killed delvers often enough to let my engines take over. See you guys at SCG Somerset

[Yanley]

Last week, I played in a 10-man legacy event in our local store and I won my three initial rounds and then drew in the last round.

In sequence, these were the matchups:

Round 1: Dredge

Game 1: He was able to strip my hand of two natural orders and one green sun zenith but he had only a narcomeba and some dredgers in the graveyard. With a few creatures in play and a Gaea's cradle, I topdeck a visionary to a scavenging ooze and promptly ate the relevant spells in his graveyard. He scoops as the ooze became a 6/6 all of a sudden.

Game 2: Turn-2 Elesh Norn sucks.

Game 3: I was able to kill him on turn 3 with NO to hoof. Prior to that, I used two thoughtseizes to remove relevant card draw spells.


Round 2: SnT

Game 1: I needed one more turn to attack or lethal but he then goes for a sneak attack into Griselbrand into Emrakul.

Game 2: Nothing much. He was stuck on two lands as I went for a turn 4 kill.

Game 3: Ruric Thar won me the game (though I'm not sure about Ruric being good against SnT. Need feedback on this).


Round 3: UG Infect

Game 1: He only casted two hierarchs while I go for a turn 3 NO kill.

Game 2: I died pretty quickly due to 2 invigorates on a blighted agent (unblockable infect dude)

Game 3: I was able to use two abrupt decays to kill two infect creatures and that bought me time to hard-cast Craterhoof.


Round 4: BUG (non-Shardless) ID

If I may ask, what is the gameplan against BUG? They have a lot of boardwipe when it's Game 2 and 3 in the form of Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm. Is N O-Prog the main gameplan?


This is the decklist I've been piloting for over a month now. (61 cards by the way)

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
1x Birchlore Rangers
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed.

4x GSZ
4x Glimpse of Nature
3x Natural Order

2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Forest
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard:

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Swan Song
1x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
1x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

[t3hdh]

Round 4: BUG (non-Shardless) ID

If I may ask, what is the gameplan against BUG? They have a lot of boardwipe when it's Game 2 and 3 in the form of Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm. Is N O-Prog the main gameplan?



I have been having success vs BUG and JUND by adding World Spine Wurm for Natural Order, as I found they could sometimes afford to Toxic Deluge Progenitus away.

[PendelSteven]

I have been having success vs BUG and JUND by adding World Spine Wurm for Natural Order, as I found they could sometimes afford to Toxic Deluge Progenitus away.

Yesterday I won a small local tournament! Let me start the decklist with my sideboard:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddog Teeg
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thoughtseize
1 WORLDSPINE WURM

Maindeck:
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 'Llanowar Elves Or Functional Reprint Of It' (I refer to it as LEOFROI personally)
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse Of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbo[u]r
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Savannah
9 'Fetchlands'

Played this sunday in Antwerp. In the store there was also The Belgian Blegh-Ih-Oh Championship. I'm not sure if the montly Blegh-Ih-Oh constructed therefore fired nor the Vanguard, but we had 11 dedicated Magic Players who came to play Legacy, including 2 foreigners if you include me (but since I live 6 km from the border, considering me a foreigner is a tad... well you know / can gather how borderlife feels) - the other a Brussels based Italian, hèhè.

Here's how the caper came down :).

Round 1 vs Ronan - Mono Red Goblins

I met Ronan two months ago. Since then I've seen him in a Mox Trial I went to in Ghent as well. The stores we play in have a ranking and currently he is level 1 - just like me. This means we both can win something in a raffle and if we go to an Open Event we get a Coca Cola product free. Great. But how did the match fare?
Well, Game 1 I went off with Glimpse Of Nature after he had Sharpshooter online. 1-0.
Game 2 I think I NO--> Progetinus when he fetched Sharpshooter. 2-0.
Basicly vs Goblins it's all about the Sharpshooter and I think I now know how an ANT player feels when pressured by aggro or combo :).

Macthresult: 1-0 (2-0)


Round 2 vs Nick - U/B Reanimator

Apparently Nick is a friend of the next two opponents I would play and this was his first tournament. I heard he wanted to play R/B Reanimator but was convinced by them he should play Blue/Black. I dunno, man.

I think I went off with Glimpse game 2 and game 1 I guess I played Craterhoof hardcasted? Just attacked with elves and such? i dunno. Anyhow:

Matchresult 2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 vs Johan - U/B Reanimator

Notice a trend here? Well. I think I won game 1, lost game 2 and eventually we went to time in game 3 and Johan concluded that he shouldn't play SnT to put his Griselbrand, because that way he could lose if I had a Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm or even Craterhoof: he had Iona out and a 1/1 was at 6 and I was at 20 with a Scavenging Ooze with a counter on it, Dryad Arbour and Visionary out, I think. Yeah. So combat math makes if he attacked with Iona he would lose due to ScOoze eating the two dead 1/1's.
... Now I didn't have a fattie in hand, so he could play the Show and Tell, but even then: another 1/1 wouldn't change combat much if even (does it? It wasn't my choice to offer a draw :)... Anyhow. We drew. See the end result why this was good for both of us.

Matchresult: 2-0-1 (5-2-1)

Round 4 vs Steve (pronounced like you think) - U/B Reanmator

Steve sort of excused him for the bad matchup when he won round 1 smilingly.
I thoughtseized him twice in game 1, then he Show And Tell his Iona and I my Progenitus. Good game, dude. 1-1.
Round 3 I sort of went the control-aggro route with some discard and a Massacre from his side somewhere near the end. I proceded to hardcast a Craterhoof eventually and took the game down. 2-0.

Endresult: 3-0-1 (7-3-1)

Now, Johan from the round before also ended 3-0-1 and Steve ended 3-0. In the end I won because Johan played vs the last ranked player.
Looking back, this mean Johan went from level 1 to level 2, I think and kept Steve just at level 5. I guess that's why Johan didn't want to risk a loss. Hehe :). And to be fair: every Reanimator player who thinks Elves is a pushover should be punished. Like Steve. So there :D.

... But hey: I won twice and drew once agains Reanimator. That's enough reason for Elves to win a tourney, right?!? :D

[Togores]

It was the national yu-gi-oh championship ^^


Friend of me was playing there ended 4th^^

[Yanley]

So with that in mind, i should tormod's for worldspine? How about a second ooze?

[yaWgnorW]

Oozes, Quirion ranger, and Viridian Shaman MVPs. Disfigure killed delvers often enough to let my engines take over. See you guys at SCG Somerset

I've been running Ooze main for a reasonable amount of time, never disappointing to see it honestly. I was on the verge of cutting it back to the board before having a run of success with it on MODO. For anyone that hasn't tried it or never felt the need too, I consider having it along the same reasoning as having Viridian Shaman main. So many game 1's turned around by this guy. Needless to say it will accompany me main deck to my next legacy outing the 31st.

I am interested in that 2nd Ooze in your board. Looks like you played a good amount of decks that 2 Oozes would be amazing against. I may consider it.


I have been having success vs BUG and JUND by adding World Spine Wurm for Natural Order, as I found they could sometimes afford to Toxic Deluge Progenitus away.

When WsW came around for the SnT mu I immediately tried it against JUND and various other non-white decks. Thing is, I realized I never really struggled with JUND unless they got the god hand of some combination of multiple thoughtseize + hymn, with Pfire + grove and Lili as the icing on the cake (This only happened once). But I didn't think about the Toxic Deluge having less success against WsW versus Progenitus. Honestly I haven't come across this situation either, but its nice to have the thought for consideration.

[PendelSteven]

Scavenging Ooze > Tormod's Crypt

Personally I would rather swap my Gaddog Teeg out for a 2nd ScOoze in the board.

Worldspine Wurm is our castlebale version of a SnT-wrecker which also is great as a 2nd (or 1st, depending on the matchup) Progenitus. And 11 mana is actually hardcastable in Elves!

[Tammit67]

I've been running Ooze main for a reasonable amount of time, never disappointing to see it honestly. I was on the verge of cutting it back to the board before having a run of success with it on MODO. For anyone that hasn't tried it or never felt the need too, I consider having it along the same reasoning as having Viridian Shaman main. So many game 1's turned around by this guy. Needless to say it will accompany me main deck to my next legacy outing the 31st.

I am interested in that 2nd Ooze in your board. Looks like you played a good amount of decks that 2 Oozes would be amazing against. I may consider it.


I was fortunate to have played against decks I hedged against with disfigures and Oozes. I loved how the Oozes and the disfigures force the delver decks to play a slower game, a grinder game. As soon as I can force them into that game plan, deathrite and untaps take over if symbiote/visionary or natural order haven't yet.

It was exactly as you said: So many game 1 dynamics turn on their head by having access to it via GSZ. Ruric Thar wasn't as impressive for me so at first I was trying out Ezuri, renegade leader in hopes to find him an all in one answer to rough/tumble or golgari charm but he was incredibly lackluster.

I don't expect people to play lands twice at their next 7 round event, but delver a couple times +/- 1 graveyard deck? Sure.

[yaWgnorW]

I was fortunate to have played against decks I hedged against with disfigures and Oozes. I loved how the Oozes and the disfigures force the delver decks to play a slower game, a grinder game. As soon as I can force them into that game plan, deathrite and untaps take over if symbiote/visionary or natural order haven't yet.

It was exactly as you said: So many game 1 dynamics turn on their head by having access to it via GSZ. Ruric Thar wasn't as impressive for me so at first I was trying out Ezuri, renegade leader in hopes to find him an all in one answer to rough/tumble or golgari charm but he was incredibly lackluster.

I don't expect people to play lands twice at their next 7 round event, but delver a couple times +/- 1 graveyard deck? Sure.

Regarding Ruric Thar, and I say this knowing there are many Ruric Thar supporters here, I just can't get on the main deck Ruric kick. Game 1 has never brought me a Ruric win, whereas 2 & 3 have. I do acknowledge it's strengths, I'm just the player that never got to witness it. The only reason I tried out Ezuri was to have a low cost GSZ target for those grindy, high removal based games. He served his purpose for that but was once again cut as it was inconsistent (some point early last year I did this). I just found myself wanting to GSZ for either part of the best friends combo more, which to me often proved the stronger, more consistent choice.

Anyway, the disfigures your running are interesting. Another consideration to look into. To be honest I'm going to be focusing on this Sylvan Library stuff spoken about on the previous page before testing anything else.

[Yanley]

I think the point of having Ruric Thar is simply to have an answer against the worst matchups of elves (combo decks especially ANT and TES). It's more of a meta-based decision if one wants to utilize Ruric. Since my meta has people playing combo decks all the time, I find Ruric more of a beneficial utility creature than a liability in competing against these decks. If you wish to fight the combo decks by hoping to just having the faster hand then I guess that's fine. Mainly, it fills the same role as having a maindeck Scavenging Ooze or a Viridian Shaman in having an out against specific matchups that otherwise you might have difficulty with.

[Kayradis]

Alright.
Spring is coming after the harsh Canadian winters and I'm out of my igloo to teach you what my reclusive winter brought me.
I've read a lot of the post, and had to restrain myself not to comment.
Ruric Thar MD; Metagame dependant? Yay and Nay. In a blind meta, he's in. In a known meta, it's debatable. End of argument.
3 or 4 Natural Orders? : 3. If you feel like 4, sure.
Should I ask Julian to sign my deck? Why not? All the bitches are running after him. Just be one of the bitches.
Viridian Shaman MD? : Yep. Im 100% behind it.


But in all honesty, I was hoping that our beloved green dudes would stay under the radar for another month or two.

@Julian : Found a foil to send you back ;)

[Julian23]

Should I ask Julian to sign my deck? Why not? All the bitches are running after him. Just be one of the bitches.

Step1: Treat them as the ladies they are! [@ 3:58m]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA3ILZ9rHR8#t=3m59s


@Julian : Found a foil to send you back ;)

Now you got me at the edge of my seat, man!

[PendelSteven]

But in all honesty, I was hoping that our beloved green dudes would stay under the radar for another month or two.


Who knows? Next tourney I might play my U/R Delver deck. I actually just ordered a Snapcaster Mage which I will pick up in the LGS when I go to there.
It's not an awesome build, if I pick up some Steam Vents in between then and now I can put my 4 Wirewood Foothills in there. Yeah, no, it won't be the most competative deck in the field, but in that case I won't be playing Elves! :D

Oh. I might add I sort of won that Snapcaster Mage (and a few uncommons) by piloting Elves to #1 this sunday. :)

[Kayradis]

Time for an update!

Spent 4 hours in the chair last Saturday.
The leg still hurt a bit.
But jeez. Can't wait for it to be done!

http://i.imgur.com/ypPkRE0.jpg

[Dice_Box]

That still amazes me. You are nuts, but it looks dam sick all the same.

[Togores]

Wow sweeet.
Full of collors it will look awesome.
But... I see the DRS and LLanowar. But what card is the Girl?

[BVB09]

Wow sweeet.
Full of collors it will look awesome.
But... I see the DRS and LLanowar. But what card is the Girl?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/zen/170.jpg

Nice tatoo :D

[Kayradis]

Nissa Revane Alt. Art!

[Sylphnir]

I'm looking for another NO target besides Progenihoof, what would you guys recommend?
TES/ANT is literally nonexistent in my playgroup, so Ruric Thar is a more debatable choice I guess.
Currently thinking about Hornet Queen or Terastodon but additional suggestions would be appreciated.
I like the queen for eldrazi defense and air superiority, it also plays well with cradle but is rather defensive.
The elephant has a lot utility but often fails to make its offensive pressure matter.

[Lemnear]

I'm looking for another NO target besides Progenihoof, what would you guys recommend?
TES/ANT is literally nonexistent in my playgroup, so Ruric Thar is a more debatable choice I guess.
Currently thinking about Hornet Queen or Terastodon but additional suggestions would be appreciated.
I like the queen for eldrazi defense and air superiority, it also plays well with cradle but is rather defensive.
The elephant has a lot utility but often fails to make its offensive pressure matter.

Why you want a third one in the first place? Whats your meta look like if combo is not a big player?

[Sylphnir]

My meta is a bloody mess. To give an example here are the 15 decks of our last meeting:
Ally/Sneak&Show/Pox/Lands/Affinity/Reanimator/RUG Delver/Turbo Eldrazi/MUD/Overburden Bounce/Miracles/Bird Token/Elves/Dragon Stompy/Goblins.
Problem is we often don't play multiple games vs the same opponent but rather battle royale style multiple opponents in short succession and ocassionally even mix in multiplayer.
Because of this sideboarding is less relevant but the mainboard needs to be as flexible as possible while still being consistent.

[dte]

Given that you play really differently I'm not sure it would help you a lot, but I always play 1 Hoof / 1 Regal Force MD (and 1 Ruric MD or SB, 1 Proge SB).
Regal is really good, a bit easier to cast/GSZ than behemoth, and I do not remember the last time I lost after it hit play.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy DE with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) for some Legacy action + Impossible Mario Games.. :eek::eek::eek:

[Lemnear]

Given that you play really differently I'm not sure it would help you a lot, but I always play 1 Hoof / 1 Regal Force MD (and 1 Ruric MD or SB, 1 Proge SB).
Regal is really good, a bit easier to cast/GSZ than behemoth, and I do not remember the last time I lost after it hit play.

Talking about at Regal Force again? I feel like I did nothing else in 2013. Card is pointless.


@discussed metagame:
So you do not play matches but single games only?? I would play Belcher then ;)

[Tammit67]

Streaming the Legacy DE with #Elves! Join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) for some Legacy action + Impossible Mario Games.. :eek::eek::eek:

I see Disfigure, let me know how you like them

[Togores]

To Meciek Berger.

Im going to play tomorrow your list from the BOM.

2 questions^^

Any changes that I should made?


Was only 1 basic forest good enought? Im littl worried about this.


Thanks

[Yanley]

Perhaps the other possible NO targets are Worldspine Wurm and maybe.... Elderscale Wurm? :s

[Yanley]

I've run maindeck Terastodon but it's more of a metacall. I believe it is terrific against fringe decks like MuD and Turbo- Eldrazi but terrible against dredge and delver decks.

[Dice_Box]

We have a new friend: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/magic-2015/22705-reclamation-sage

Reclamation Sage 2G

Creature - Elf Shaman

When Reclamation Sage enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment
2/1

[MD.Ghost]

We have a new friend: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/magic-2015/22705-reclamation-sage

Reclamation Sage 2G

Creature - Elf Shaman

When Reclamation Sage enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment
2/1

Sadly dies to -1/-1 stuff, but i am happy to see finally a combination of viridian shaman and harmonic sliver in mono G. Hit some counterbalance, moat or sneak attack stuff with a maindeck tutorable solution is great.:cool:

[Echelon]

What serie is it coming in? Edit: never mind, already found the answer - Magic 2015.

Goodbye Viridian Shaman, it was nice knowing you!

[Lemnear]

We have a new friend: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/magic-2015/22705-reclamation-sage

Reclamation Sage 2G

Creature - Elf Shaman

When Reclamation Sage enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment
2/1

Finally! Waited far too long for this one

[Dice_Box]

Here is the card (In the highest quality I can pull from the vid) for all to go blind trying to read:

http://i.imgur.com/AJh1BlT.png

[Lemnear]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6-3l3hCm0

[Berger]

To Meciek Berger.

Im going to play tomorrow your list from the BOM.

2 questions^^

Any changes that I should made?


Was only 1 basic forest good enought? Im littl worried about this.


Thanks

I still play that list and its Good for me, If u r from USA - u can change Ruric with Scavenging ooze :)

Im fine with one Forest. Ask yourself - why are you afraid of one forest... There r not so many threats, unless i dont see em :P

In the future Change Viridian Shaman with Reclamation Sage :) Its awesom.... but still, this one(2/1) toughtness :|

[Zombie]

we have a new friend: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/magic-2015/22705-reclamation-sage

reclamation sage 2g

creature - elf shaman

when reclamation sage enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment
2/1



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs

[Lans89]

Wohoo! That's the elf we were waiting for! But Magic 2015 is still far from now I guess, haha.

[Kayradis]

The quest for a new foil has began!

For the NO target :
Worldspine Wurm
Or just start the troll engine and do Godsire.

[Zombie]

The quest for a new foil has began!

For the NO target :
Worldspine Wurm
Or just start the troll engine and do Godsire.

Godsire machinegun would be pretty lulzy. I'm sad that I can't find an Imperious Perfect because that'd be kinda the same with a saner cost. DRS machinegunning with Cradle mana? Yes please.

[Lemnear]

The quest for a new german foil has began!

For the NO target :
Worldspine Wurm
Or just start the troll engine and do Godsire.

Fixed, pal

[Kayradis]

Im assuming you're already msg'ing people about it? :P

[Kayradis]

...I'm sad that I can't find an Imperious Perfect because that'd be kinda the same with a saner cost.

Get a full art.
I remember selling mine for like 15$ each

[Julian23]

I hate to play devil's advocate, but our D&T matchup could take a significant hit...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoUry65IAAAVbAy.jpg

[Lemnear]

You think D&T will play 3cc spot removal for the Hydra God and the few TNN remaining in the metagame even if Mindscensor/Avenger can just fly over the meerfolk with equip?

[Kayradis]

I hate to play devil's advocate, but our D&T matchup could take a significant hit...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoUry65IAAAVbAy.jpg

We will have to revoke your posting privileges for a day Julian.
I'm sorry.

[dte]

Now they (D&T) may have a way to deal with proge, but they will not likely play more than 1-2 SB of it.
And we gained a tutorable way to remove their spirit of the labyrinth.

I do not think the MU will get that worse. And if this card is really played in D&T, it would mean that it is an efficient way for them to deal with TNN, making D&T a more successful and more played deck.

All the better, isn't it?

[Lemnear]

Now they (D&T) may have a way to deal with proge, but they will not likely play more than 1-2 SB of it.
And we gained a tutorable way to remove their spirit of the labyrinth.

I do not think the MU will get that worse. And if this card is really played in D&T, it would mean that it is an efficient way for them to deal with TNN, making D&T a more successful and more played deck.

All the better, isn't it?

A Weenie strategy with Wasteland, Port and Thalia should play 3cc sorceries? Really?

[Kayradis]

A Weenie strategy with Wasteland, Port and Thalia should play 3cc sorceries? Really?

I've seen worse ideas.....

[danyul]

When does M15 come out? I guess I could have googled that myself.

Anyhow I'm excited for that new guy to join our legions!

[Kayradis]

It's like Xmas....In the summer!
BTW Dan, I might be on the west coast for a week or 2 in September (Vancouver)

[Sylphnir]

When does M15 come out? I guess I could have googled that myself.
Release Date is July 18, 2014.

[danyul]

It's like Xmas....In the summer!
BTW Dan, I might be on the west coast for a week or 2 in September (Vancouver)

Vancouver, Washington? Or Vancouver, Canada? Sdematt has a pretty big Legacy crew in the Canadian Vancouver. Unfortunately the American Vancouver is like an hour or so away from the Seattle area. But perhaps you can visit the local shop and meet all the cool kids.


Release Date is July 18, 2014.

That's not too bad. I think I can make it!

[dte]

A Weenie strategy with Wasteland, Port and Thalia should play 3cc sorceries? Really?

I didn't know that Cataclysm was a one-mana instant :)

D&T is not a weenie strategy, but an aggro-control-prison strategy.

So yes, they can play it. Probably only 1-2 max, and probably in the side. It answers one of the most feared thinks from D&T, TNN. And it is crazyly polyvalent.

[Lemnear]

D&T is indeed an Aggro-prison deck, but Cataclysm comes in against decks which are not soft to the manadenial like Miracles and Loam. The card in question is nothing more than 3cc Spot removal for TNN and Progenitus atm.

[Tammit67]

D&T is indeed an Aggro-prison deck, but Cataclysm comes in against decks which are not soft to the manadenial like Miracles and Loam. The card in question is nothing more than 3cc Spot removal for TNN and Progenitus atm.

And they basically already have that in Tariff

[Tormod]

This is fantastic!

Free's up sb slots. Can cut down on Abrupt Decays, for swan songs.

[dte]

And they basically already have that in Tariff

No, Tariff is more expensive if they do not want to loose a creature, TNN could survive Tariff, Tariff does not destroy planeswalkers (Jace & Lili), artifacts (opposing equip & vials) and enchants (moat, CB, sneak attack which is the best S&S plan), ...
I believe it will take at least the slot of Oblivion Ring (they already have a very good S&S MU).

[nudon]

Harmonic Sliver looks so bad now compared to Reclamation Sage. No white, an increased attack, and an elf! :)

With regards to the new white card, I've already seen some D&T players start to use ensnaring bridge to deal with Progenitus.

[dte]

Harmonic Sliver looks so bad now compared to Reclamation Sage. No white, an increased attack, and an elf! :)

With regards to the new white card, I've already seen some D&T players start to use ensnaring bridge to deal with Progenitus.

The reason why D&T had no (or near no) answer to proge isn't that there wasn't any available. Tariff & bridge, sure, and plenty of others (including meekstone which is imho the best, as it's good vs TNN, delver & tarmo). But they were way to specific, especially since they have a very good MU against S&S.
This new cards is really generic. A sort of monocolor maelstrom pulse which does not target. They could play it the same way as we play decay, as a generic answer versus various threads. So there is a good chance that some copies will appear in D&T SBs.

[Zombie]

Played this today:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Hornet Queen
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Progenitus
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay


Yes, I played a random Hornet Queen. No, it never mattered once.

Felt really nice. Did a Julian and went 4-0 in games vs. Miracles. A lot of that was admittedly bad draws on his part and a G1 T2 kill on mine, but I'm very much sold on both Surgical and Bitterblossom. The latter especially is just great, helps a lot in rebuilding and lets you invest less cards to the board to be a threat. Opponent plays boardwipe, in response bounce an Arbor and a Quirion Ranger, next turn you have 3 power on the board again. It also has great synergy with Cradle and allows casting big Green Suns easily. Also provides extra bodies to pump with Hoof. All in all a stellar card.

SB plan, or "take board, put in deck":
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Progenitus
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Bitterblossom
+2 Thoughtseize (<--may be wrong, and could be right to just play Therapy to abuse BB even more)

-1 Hornet Queen / Hoof #2
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
-1 Viridian Shaman
-4 Glimpse of Nature
-2 Nettle Sentinel
-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Birchlore Rangers

(played by boarding out Ooze, one Quirion and one Heritage instead of fourth Glimpse and two Heritages, which is wrong I think. Ooze beats better, and Quirion is just much more resilient than Heritage ever will. Cradle+Blossom should provide most of the mana you could ever want and Terminus/GSZ allow access to the Heritage should one absolutely be needed)


Also, fuck Dredge. That matchup is just made of frustration. T2 Ooze too slow, yay -_-'. Really makes me want to play the fourth Therapy to have more sac outlets.

[nudon]

I really like the idea of Bitterblossom on principle. Being able to establish a board against miracles/stoneblade without expending resources puts your opponent in a tough bind. However, I wonder if we can find some middle ground between a repeatable c/a engine and elf combo. Some discussed cards in the past attempt to bridge gsz for 2 and 8. Such cards include Ezuri, Elvish Archdruid, Elvish Champion, and Wren's Run Packmaster. The problem I see with the first 3 options is that they all require additional commitment to the board. Wren's Run Packmaster is definitely very interesting (cannot be decayed and "hides" one of your guys from a sweeper) but may open yourself up to a 2 for 1.

I wonder if Imperious Perfect can fill that void. It's great in the mid-game in the presence of other elves while being able to greatly impact the board on its own as well. Furthermore, having the full complement of 8 untap effects can really abuse the card as well.

Zombie, if you're going to board out all 4 glimpses, I think you should cut sentinels completely. Though I haven't tested it, surgical extraction seems a little out of place to me against miracles, especially if you're only boarding in 2 discard effects. I'm a big fan of 4 therapy. :) I just wouldn't bring them in against dredge.

[MD.Ghost]

I really like the idea of Bitterblossom on principle. Being able to establish a board against miracles/stoneblade without expending resources puts your opponent in a tough bind. However, I wonder if we can find some middle ground between a repeatable c/a engine and elf combo. Some discussed cards in the past attempt to bridge gsz for 2 and 8. Such cards include Ezuri, Elvish Archdruid, Elvish Champion, and Wren's Run Packmaster. The problem I see with the first 3 options is that they all require additional commitment to the board. Wren's Run Packmaster is definitely very interesting (cannot be decayed and "hides" one of your guys from a sweeper) but may open yourself up to a 2 for 1.

I wonder if Imperious Perfect can fill that void. It's great in the mid-game in the presence of other elves while being able to greatly impact the board on its own as well. Furthermore, having the full complement of 8 untap effects can really abuse the card as well.

Zombie, if you're going to board out all 4 glimpses, I think you should cut sentinels completely. Though I haven't tested it, surgical extraction seems a little out of place to me against miracles, especially if you're only boarding in 2 discard effects. I'm a big fan of 4 therapy. :) I just wouldn't bring them in against dredge.

Also thought about it:

Ezuri,
+only 3 mana
+can win on his own if 5-x Mana is avaible
+protect other elves against damage removal/sweeper (if mana open)
-needs 5 Mana to work as a real wincon, which isnt easy with an empty board, because we dont play enough lands
-1 dies to every removal besides -1/-1 sweeper
-bounced from karakas (miracle, d&t)
-can't protect himself

Elvish Archdruid,
+only 3 mana
+pump all elf-dudes, so you can attack with more power the turn he enters, defend all elf-dudes against -1/-1 sweeper
+if you untap with him, he can produce enough mana for a real combo turn
-1 dies to every removal besides -1/-1 sweeper
-can't protect himself

Elvish Champion,
+only 3 mana
+pump all elf-dudes, so you can attack with more power the turn he enters, defend all elf-dudes against -1/-1 sweeper
+adds forestwalk, so you can gain sneaky attacks against bigger stuff like gofy
-1 dies to every removal besides -1/-1 sweeper
-can't protect himself
-no activ ability

Wren's Run Packmaster
+protects another dude against sweeper
+can spam tokens on his own AND on the same turn he enter the battlefield
+3 mana ability can work even with less lands and dudes (after sweeper)
+5/5 body!
-harder to kill (survives bolts, jitte, decay, most damage based sweepers)
-overkill if his target gets killed in response to his etb trigger

i also added:

Wilt-Leaf Liege
+pump ALL dudes (yes symbionts and arbor), so you can attack with more power the turn he enters, defend ALL dudes against -1/-1 sweeper (and Nettle/DS against Rough/Pyroclasm)
+4/4 body
+advantage against Liliana and Hymn decks
-harder to kill (survives bolts, jitte, decay, most damage based sweepers)
-no active ability

I think, Wilt-Leaf Liege is still the best option, because it will affect the battlefield the turn he enters. Also nice surprise against Liliana/Hymn (BUG Decks). With 4/4 hard to kill and not so bad on his own (means - he is a clock, can race delver, tnn etc.). My current build has 2 Lieges and i switched them between main and side, unsure which works best (1 main, 1 side / 2 side / 2 main).

Otherwise i like Lemnears Packmaster-Idea but i struggle with the "needs an elf or die" effect...

[Infinitium]

If you're looking for a 3-4cc card to hedge your bets versus control in general you should probably just run a couple of Vengevines and call it a day. Don't bother with graveyard setup cards - 4 hasted power with built in resistance to discard, countermagic and non-white removal is plenty against decks trying to stabilize with planeswalkers.

[Julian23]

I appreciate your input but we're talking about Terminus here.

[Infinitium]

Well good for you. If we're talking Miracles Vengevine can still single-handidly get you back in the game if they tap out to sweep and drop Jace. The other cards that have been mentioned can't.

[Julian23]

single-handidly get you back in the game

I disagree. This is not how the matches play out in my experience postboard. A 4/3 Haste Guy for 4 mana might sometimes kill a Jace but that's not what you call "get you back in the game". Especially since their 8 preferred removal spells are StP and Terminus. In a situation like you describe, I'd still much rather have a PW or Bitterblossom.

[D@N]

the problem with vengevine is because they cant come into play from the bottom of your library. Ive been running packmaster for the last few smaller events as well as online and although it does suck if your oppo. 2-4-1's u, when it sticks it feels invicible. Ive also tried garruks 1-2 as well as xenagos and i think the xenagos 0 ability is best as its just a generic dude with haste.

[yaWgnorW]

If you're looking for a 3-4cc card to hedge your bets versus control in general you should probably just run a couple of Vengevines and call it a day. Don't bother with graveyard setup cards - 4 hasted power with built in resistance to discard, countermagic and non-white removal is plenty against decks trying to stabilize with planeswalkers.

Well good for you. If we're talking Miracles Vengevine can still single-handidly get you back in the game if they tap out to sweep and drop Jace. The other cards that have been mentioned can't.

Uh...in the 1st quote you mention non-white removal. In the second you acknowledged that we're talking the Miracle MU...which runs 4 Terminus and 4 STPS most commonly. How does Vengevine beat these threats or help this MU? I see what your getting at here, even hardcasting Vengevine after they tap out may get you a Jace and/or put a turn of pressure on the opponents life total, but its not as if Miracles is going to struggle to find answers.

The thing with Bitterblossom and Planeswalker possibilities is its a threat that can survive wipes and create consistent pressure regardless of the amount of answers and threats Miracles has.


the problem with vengevine is because they cant come into play from the bottom of your library. Ive been running packmaster for the last few smaller events as well as online and although it does suck if your oppo. 2-4-1's u, when it sticks it feels invicible. Ive also tried garruks 1-2 as well as xenagos and i think the xenagos 0 ability is best as its just a generic dude with haste.

Xenagos was one I looked at before really even thinking about the Garruks. The 2/2 haste is huge, not to mention its a green creature that can sync with Cradle, not to mention NO.

[starfox444]

So Garruks are the new thing to try but does anyone have some results with them? I want to try them out next week at a local event but we have a lot more combo and tempo decks so it's not really a good idea.

[Kayradis]

http://cdn.themetapicture.com/media/funny-quit-your-job.jpghttp://global3.memecdn.com/How-to-quit-your-job_o_90968.webp

[danyul]

Your pictures appear to have been uploaded improperly. I just see a little error question mark box.

[SpencerS]

Councils Judgement

Why should this card be on our radar? Well, this card is going to be picked up by D&T and Maverick. What is one of those decks worst match ups? Elves. Now, why is the matchup so bad for them post board after they get to access their white disruption? Progenitus.

I think it will replace O ring in their side boards as a way to deal with TNN, and more relevant to us, the soul of the world. Something to keep in mind for the post board plan versus these decks. We can no longer blindly win through NO-PRO, and must plan for the possible out they now possess besides low CMC artifact hate.

[Julian23]

This is WAY too early to call and I think it's very likely things won't end up that way, but with Toxic Deluge and that new Über-Vindicate, I keep growing less of Progenitus lately. If only Aetherling was green.

On another note, had great success with Packmaster maindeck in the Legacy Daily Events today. Also Bitterblossoms, Meekstones, Surgicals and 1 Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Trying to get out of the "old" flow to get a feel for the new stuff. Needless to say, I'm super soft to combo with the current configuration but I don't mind right now.

/edit: went 3-1 twice in today's Legacy DEs only losing to Elves (twice!).

[nudon]

Do you guys think packmaster would be better than imperious perfect? Packmaster can store a guy pre-sweeper but imperious perfect is better post-sweeper.

[dte]

I really think tat we need a decay/bolt-proof elf with a +1/+1 effect in SB. So, not imperious perfect, or as an addition to Wilt-Leaf Liege/Wren Run's Packmaster.

If we had enough SB slots, we could have more than one target, but SB slots are quite hard to have if you don't want to be soft vs combo.

Wilt-Leaf Liege vs Wren Run's Packmaster
WRP is better once in play, and very strong in some MUs. It's even playable in some MUs where WLL is not (or at least bad).
However the need for an elf has been an issue for me against jund, which is one of the MUs this target is included for. So unless there is more fair decks and I could include a second GSZ-target against fair decks, I will stick with WLL (if I put a second it would be WRP over imperious/archdruid/2nd WLL).

[Zombie]

This is WAY too early to call and I think it's very likely things won't end up that way, but with Toxic Deluge and that new Über-Vindicate, I keep growing less of Progenitus lately. If only Aetherling was green.

So.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380224&type=card

Sigarda is probably just better, though.

EDIT: Asd, Deluge/ûber-vindicate. Should be ok for big-midsize beater slot though.


On another note, had great success with Packmaster maindeck in the Legacy Daily Events today. Also Bitterblossoms, Meekstones, Surgicals and 1 Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Trying to get out of the "old" flow to get a feel for the new stuff. Needless to say, I'm super soft to combo with the current configuration but I don't mind right now.

/edit: went 3-1 twice in today's Legacy DEs only losing to Elves (twice!).

How's Bitterblossom been for you?

[Echelon]

Councils Judgement

Why should this card be on our radar? Well, this card is going to be picked up by D&T and Maverick. What is one of those decks worst match ups? Elves. Now, why is the matchup so bad for them post board after they get to access their white disruption? Progenitus.

I think it will replace O ring in their side boards as a way to deal with TNN, and more relevant to us, the soul of the world. Something to keep in mind for the post board plan versus these decks. We can no longer blindly win through NO-PRO, and must plan for the possible out they now possess besides low CMC artifact hate.

Or you just NO-Hoof for the win... Seriously, there isn't all that much to worry about.


Played this today:
Also, fuck Dredge. That matchup is just made of frustration. T2 Ooze too slow, yay -_-'. Really makes me want to play the fourth Therapy to have more sac outlets.

Facing a lot of dredge? Try Dryad Millitant! GSZ-ing that T2 is often quick enough, the only exception being when they already have a Dread Return in their graveyard. You instantly shoot down all their flashback cards. Sure, it doesn't instantly win you the game, but often will give you the time you need to get the kill. I know most people here are against running one, but this little bugger has done quite some good work for me so far in my meta (I tend to face quite a bit of Dredge, and it also buys me a little bit more time vs. ANT). Regardless, also keep running some non-GSZ'able graveyard sweepers.

[Yanley]

I use one Tormod's Crypt in my sideboard to fight dredge since you can land it on turn 1 but the Dryad Militant idea isn't so bad. I'm more afraid of Dread Return than any of their spells. Last time, I was on the draw and my dredge opponent unfortunately used a Dread Return to reanimate an Elesh Norn. Rough beats..

[Echelon]

And landing a Millitant before they have a DR in their graveyard prevents that from happening :)

The last dredge-opponent I faced knew of my Millitant-shenanigans and opened with a T1 Carefull Study, dropping a Dread Return in his graveyard. On my T1, I dropped Millitant but unfortunately Elesh Norn hit his graveyard soon after. Oh well :P

[Julian23]

4-0'ed today's Legacy Daily Event as well, #boom, I'm back! Still only at 1800 Constructed Rating but after losing so hard last week, it feels really good to 10-2 over the last three DEs with the two losses only from the mirror match. :smile::smile:

Here's what I was using. It's probably super bad but the heavy hitting sideboard cards such as Meekstone were a lot of fun. It's like taking hardcore revenge on RUG for all the crimes it committed to me in the past. #Booyakasha!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bol6mTsCIAAhy01.png:large

[D@N]

How many combo decks did u face where you would want ruric md? Im also thinking of running the packmaster main.

[Zombie]

New, crazy idea for SB

Crazy Board (aka Blame Lejay):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy

Probably needs an 8 fetch manabase with only 1 basic or 1 Arbor. (In my 19 land version, anyway)
Is nuts, but hey :D
Not like the combo matchups put much, if any, pressure on your manabase. Just play a trop and a Savannah, everything else is green already and you have 4 DRS 2 Birchlore as bonus.

[dte]

New, crazy idea for SB

Crazy Board (aka Blame Lejay):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy

Probably needs an 8 fetch manabase with only 1 basic or 1 Arbor. (In my 19 land version, anyway)
Is nuts, but hey :D
Not like the combo matchups put much, if any, pressure on your manabase. Just play a trop and a Savannah, everything else is green already and you have 4 DRS 2 Birchlore as bonus.

Too crazy I think.

Meddling Mage is not better than seize/cabal vs combo, especially in our deck and with your SB which had no other blue or white card than Meddling.

Combo will enter bounce/decay for ScOoze/Gaddock/value (slowing us down)

Meddling is already not so great in white/blue decks, but it's terrible in elves: hard to cast, to protect, not tutorable...
Play at least one gaddock before this!

And bitterblossom, which is here almost only for miracle, is I think worst than Needle/Choke/Garruck/Xenagos in this MU, and not playable in others.

Otherwise,
What's the logic behind WRP MD?
Better MU vs Miracle/Jund/BUG/D&T?

[danyul]

I think the WRP is there for the fair matchups or against decks wit Bolts and Decays. I could see it's application against Miracles but it doesn't seem that strong vs Swords to Plowshares. I could be wrong. I have one coming in the mail and I should be able to test it out this weekend at one of our larger local events.

In other news, the thread hasn't seen much action lately. I was gold fishing and thought this was an interesting dilemma. I have started my second turn after playing DRS off a fetchland. How would you play out the rest of this hand and why? For those who can't make out the pictures, there is a DRS and Forest in play with a land in the graveyard. Your hand consists of GSZ, 2 Elvish Visionary, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Gaea's Cradle, and 1 fetchland. I'm just curious to see other people's thought processes. There are quite a few ways to play out this hand.

http://i.imgur.com/8HfNadIl.jpg

[haganbmj]

In other news, the thread hasn't seen much action lately. I was gold fishing and thought this was an interesting dilemma. I have started my second turn after playing DRS off a fetchland. How would you play out the rest of this hand and why? For those who can't make out the pictures, there is a DRS and Forest in play with a land in the graveyard. Your hand consists of GSZ, 2 Elvish Visionary, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Gaea's Cradle, and 1 fetchland. I'm just curious to see other people's thought processes. There are quite a few ways to play out this hand.

I might go with a GSZ for Heritage off of Forest+DRS, tapping Cradle for 2 to play Quirion Ranger, returning the forest to untap the Deathrite into Visionary+Visionary or something (depending on the draws).
If you have some idea of what your opponent is playing then maybe you need to save the GSZ for a Viridian Shaman or something later, in which case I'd be satisfied with Visionary, Cradle for 2, Visionary then having 6 mana available on turn three with a GSZ and a Quirion + 2 cards.

So the two board states could be

Cradle, DRS, Quirion, Heritage, Visionary x2
(Verdant, Forest, 2 cards in hand)

Forest, Cradle, DRS, Visionary x2
(Verdant, 2 cards, Quirion, GSZ in hand)


And I personally think it really depends on what the first visionary draws and if you know what you're playing against.
I'm partial to the more conservative second line though since it leaves your GSZ open and provides a sufficient amount of mana on turn three.

[danyul]

Interesting. I actually wanted to just play Q.Ranger, fetch (into D.Arbor on opponent's EOT), pass. I'm perhaps over-valuing having an active Dryad Arbor in play on the next turn. Then I can play Visionaryx2 and have a superpowered Cradle to try and push that GSZ into a Hoof, depending on what I draw off the Visionaries+draw step.

Your second line provides a nice compromise though. The more I think about it, the more I like that.

[haganbmj]

Interesting. I actually wanted to just play Q.Ranger, fetch (into D.Arbor on opponent's EOT), pass. I'm perhaps over-valuing having an active Dryad Arbor in play on the next turn. Then I can play Visionaryx2 and have a superpowered Cradle to try and push that GSZ into a Hoof, depending on what I draw off the Visionaries+draw step.

I think the active Dryad is probably a bit less relevant when you already have a Deathrite in play, but that's more of a preference thing.
That said I might be overvaluing the two cards you draw off Visionary.

Well the nice thing about leaving the GSZ in your hand is that you have access to Symbiote on turn three if your draws were subpar.

[danyul]

I think the active Dryad is probably a bit less relevant when you already have a Deathrite in play, but that's more of a preference thing.
That said I might be overvaluing the two cards you draw off Visionary.

Well the nice thing about leaving the GSZ in your hand is that you have access to Symbiote on turn three if your draws were subpar.

You're right on both fronts. I guess I mostly wanted to keep the GSZ in hand and play the Cradle at the last possible moment for fear of Wasteland. Of course, having a live opponent would change everything. That's just another reason why over-goldfishing with this deck can actually make you dumber sometimes.

[cachipus]

T1 Fetch to Forest and GSZ=0 for Dryad (I have 2 Visionary and quirion to play next turn. I dont like the DSR on this T1 because y I want 2 extra mana of my T1 mana generator in T2 and if my opponent doesnt fetch i doesnt have it)
T2 Quirion, DRS, Cradle for 3 mana, Visionary.
Depending on the Visionary draw there are multiples plays of the turn but at least you could play the other visionary and pass turn with the forest and 2 new cards.
Sorry for my terrible english.

[nudon]

I would tap DRS and forest to play visionary first. This allows you to potentially draw into a heritage druid, wirewood symbiote, gsz, etc. that would alter your lines of play. Assuming that the drawn card is a land or another irrelevant card. I would probably play cradle and gsz for 1 to bring wirewood symbiote into play. Against certain decks, this opens you up to wasteland but already provides you a card back in the form of bouncing visionary. If your opponent doesn't have wasteland, you probably win. Even if they do, you have the visionary recursion engine up and running.

[Lemnear]

I would definitely sandbag the GSZ in case the Visionaries draw dead and would not waste it immediately to setup the BFF combo just to see it fall victim to removal against an (still) unknown opponent. Neither would I burn the second Fetch for another Forest or Dual here as it would devalue the Quirion Ranger in case your opponent is on fast beatdown (Arbor-lock). Unless you can identify a combo deck on the other side of the table, I would drop the fetch, play a Visionary and pass. This way you have all the options in turn 3 there you have better knowledge of your opponents plan.

If you are running WRP in your maindeck, you can fetch it turn 3 with GSZ. I don't have to mention how absurd WRP + Cradle is...

[B4L4]

I'd start with Visionary tapping forest + DrS (no land drop yet)

If you draw an heritage, then land the cradle, tap for GG and play Heritage + Quirion.
Tap the 3 untapped dudes for GGG, cast 2nd Visionary, floating G.
If you draw Wirewood, cast it and use the ability to untap DrS (bouncing one Visionary. Untapped DrS gives you some potential action during opponent turn).
If you draw something else and your opponent have a fetch in graveyard, use Quirion to untap DrS, then use floating G + DrS to GsZ for Wirewood.

If you don't draw heritage, just land the fetch and get Dryad eot. Next turn you can start the BFF engine.

[Lemnear]

I'd start with Visionary tapping forest + DrS (no land drop yet)

If you draw an heritage, then land the cradle, tap for GG and play Heritage + Quirion.
Tap the 3 untapped dudes for GGG, cast 2nd Visionary, floating G.
If you draw Wirewood, cast it and use the ability to untap DrS (bouncing one Visionary. Untapped DrS gives you some potential action during opponent turn).
If you draw something else and your opponent have a fetch in graveyard, use Quirion to untap DrS, then use floating G + DrS to GsZ for Wirewood.

If you don't draw heritage, just land the fetch and get Dryad eot. Next turn you can start the BFF engine.

BFF combo is crap against decks running a shitload of spot removal especially if you can have a real threat like WRP or the Behemoth itself if you sandbag the GSZ. Running out all your creatures just because you can is nonsense as long as you can draw one of your 4 Glimpse and the metagame is full of sweepers.

For me, some of the scenarios described have too many "ifs" like drawing Hertiage, Symbiote, asuming opponent is a goldfish (no counter, no combo, no removal), etc.

[Kayradis]

Alright.
Let's say I'm going all in (opponent plays no counter magic and has 1 fetch in GY)
Tap Forest (G)
Exile Fetch (GG)
Cast Visionary (Draw 1)
Play+Tap Cradle (GG)
Play Quirion (G) / Bounce Forest+Untap DRS
Exile Fetch (GG)
Play Visionary (Draw 1)

Kill next turn?

[Lemnear]

Alright.
Let's say I'm going all in (opponent plays no counter magic and has 1 fetch in GY)
Tap Forest (G)
Exile Fetch (GG)
Cast Visionary (Draw 1)
Play+Tap Cradle (GG)
Play Quirion (G) / Bounce Forest+Untap DRS
Exile Fetch (GG)
Play Visionary (Draw 1)

Kill next turn?

Erm ... how? I can't see it, pal. There are 2 visionary, a quirion, a drs and a cradle in play, a forest, a fetch and a GSZ in hand. Atm I can only see 6 mana :/

[dte]

Funny... for me the line of play is really different t from what I read:

Not knowing what your opponent is on, I will:
tap DRS and forest for visionnary, then play cradle and second visionary, keeping gsz to fetch symbiot next turn if I didn't draw anything relevant of the 3-cards drawn (second cradle, second GSZ, NO, heritage, birchlore => 15 out of 52 => 64.8% chances on three draws) in which case I will probably tutor for regal/Hoof next turn or a symbiot and started a BFF engine, or a glimpse and another 1 drop...

Drawing neither glimpse, NO, GSZ, heritage, cradle, symbiot, glimpse or birchlore is 1- (proba of one of these 23 out of 52) => 1-0.835= 16.5% only.

Of course normally at this point you know what your opponent is on, and that should change things => not playing NO vs fow.deck,...

So basically I play the craddle and two visionnary. I do not share the vision of a meta full of sweepers (in which case putting visionary into play is fine anyway, as it helps you building pressure while adding power), and I'm not afraid of waste: against any waste.deck, I'm quite happy with DRS, quirion, 2 visio and forest while they spend one of their 2 land drops on a waste and I still have fetch + GSZ + 3 cards in hand. I will even almost consider that I won the game if I see waste => cradle.

[dte]

Just a precision: against unknown opponent, I fear miracle and combo.

Playing cradle and 2*visionnary is the fastest if we're against combo.
Against miracle, I will like this configuration too, even if fetch (to grab dryad EoOT) + quirion is maybe better.

against other decks, first they let us have an active DRS, so they're not overloading with cheap removal. I will consider that I'm clearly ahead with this configuration and my GSZ+fetch+3 cards hand + DRS & loaded cradle in play.

[B4L4]

BFF combo is crap against decks running a shitload of spot removal especially if you can have a real threat like WRP or the Behemoth itself if you sandbag the GSZ. Running out all your creatures just because you can is nonsense as long as you can draw one of your 4 Glimpse and the metagame is full of sweepers.

For me, some of the scenarios described have too many "ifs" like drawing Hertiage, Symbiote, asuming opponent is a goldfish (no counter, no combo, no removal), etc.

Of course there is a lot of "ifs", we talk goldfish vs unknown opponent..
And i should add more if, because of course if you happen to draw a glimpse / NO on your first visionary, it changes everything.

I think it's safe to deploy BFF if you naturally draw into the 2nd piece and/or if you can replay the bounced Visionary the same turn with Wirewood. And i would still be quite happy to see my opponent tapping out on his turn to break the BFF, gaining cards advantage & shields down for your next turn.

Otherwise, fetch -> go + eot Arbor into tons of mana + GsZ on your next turn is a good line of play.

[danyul]

Interesting. Thanks for all the replies. It's helpful to see how all of you think this stuff through. And it's especially interesting to see which cards people are valuing over others. Perhaps if I had presented a real game state with an opponent, our plays might be more in line with each other. Or they might still be just as different!

[nudon]

Interesting. Thanks for all the replies. It's helpful to see how all of you think this stuff through. And it's especially interesting to see which cards people are valuing over others. Perhaps if I had presented a real game state with an opponent, our plays might be more in line with each other. Or they might still be just as different!

Yeah, I agree it's useful to see how others would play out certain scenarios. For those interested, here are the assumptions I made when evaluating the hand:

1. You're on the play since there are 8 cards (excluding fetch in gy).
2. Because we're goldfishing, your opponent played a card on turn 1 (tapped out) that doesn't impact your turn 2.
3. Due to the card played on turn 1, we know we're not up against combo.

I also grouped the opposing deck in one of 3 categories: blue-based disruption, black-based disruption, and LD-based disruption.

Blue-based disruption: miracles, stone-blade, RUG, UWR
Black-based disruption: team america, shardless, jund, junk, dead-guy ale
LD-based disruption: d&t, maverick, goblins

Against blue-based disruption, I preferred to follow up visionary with gsz->symbiote because I don't want their spell pierces or non-FoW countermagic to be live next turn. Moreover, I am speculating that they don't have removal since they would probably StP or bolt our turn 1 DRS.

Against black-based disruption, I speculate that they may have a turn 2 hymn coming since they didn't discard us on turn 1. For this reason, I want to play gsz earlier to mitigate against this. Abrupt decay is also possible but I believe it's better to lose our symbiote than the DRS since that would set us back on mana.

Against LD-based disruption, the only cards I really care about are gaddock teeg, aven mindcensor, phyrexian revoker, and thalia to a certain extent. All 4 are capable of coming down on turn 2. We're heavily favored in these match-ups so I don't want to give them a reason to get back in the game. I realize that spirit of the labyrinth would be pretty good against this play but I think I would hedge towards the other cards.

[Rybandt]

But there are scenarios that you have to guess or be lucky...

One thing is the other player drop Mountain -> Lackey (an obvious match). Other is Wasteland -> Vial (possible D&T, Goblins, Merfolk) or Fetch -> Bayou -> DRS (possible mirror match, BUG, Junk). Sure, it's some kind of information... But all decks cited before have different lines of play against/around, and sometimes you just have to guess/read minds.

[Tammit67]

4-0'ed today's Legacy Daily Event as well, #boom, I'm back! Still only at 1800 Constructed Rating but after losing so hard last week, it feels really good to 10-2 over the last three DEs with the two losses only from the mirror match. :smile::smile:

Here's what I was using. It's probably super bad but the heavy hitting sideboard cards such as Meekstone were a lot of fun. It's like taking hardcore revenge on RUG for all the crimes it committed to me in the past. #Booyakasha!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bol6mTsCIAAhy01.png:large

You have a lot of interesting decisions contained in that image. Would you recommend any of them? I'm expecting a heavy delver presence

[dte]

About this specific Julian's SB:
I've played meekstone, the best card ever when RUG was THE DTB. BUGs have decay, so it's less reliable, and I will always favour 4th decay over meekstone vs BUG, at it doubles as a very good cards in fair, non-delver MUs
Otherwise I do not understand why dropping all hope vs combo while it's still very playable with some dedicated slots.

About the situation, it's indeed very interesting. None of the posters have posted two similar plays.. So to continue a bit further the game, what if the opponent played:
1) Misty Rainforest => Bayou => DRS;
2) Verdant catacomb, go;
3) waste, vial;
4) island, go;
5) island, ponder;

[MD.Ghost]

After a long break, i sleeved my elves back and play the forst-dudes the first time this year. Today i enjoyed a small tournament at an LGS.

Afterall 3:1 which leads to a 4th place (top was full with 9 points, first place included, so we need the Opp-Score)

Matchups:
2:0 vs Infect
2:1 vs Burn
1:2 vs Esperblade
2:1 vs Merfolk

Played the "basic" build, but without 2nd Hoof - I decided to go with the following flexslots: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Wrench's Run Packmaster

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

I created it for an unknown meta and to try something out. Sadly i never saw the Packmaster (tried to zenith him once vs merfolk but was disrupted with force), so no details here. On the other side, WLL was very good (even i don't see any "Liliana, Hymn, Bolts or Charms - Matchups"). WLL Boost won me a critical game vs Burn (and i hate the new Eidolon, matchups can get very tricky if it is maindeck) and it also worked good enough vs Merfolk.

Match vs Esperblade he get early Cage game 2 and 3 and i can't find an answer... (draw 3 Zenith and 1 NO a game...), but even the game i faced 1 Cage, 1 Needle (WS) and 1 Jitte i got enough turns to find Decay, VShaman, Glimpse, WLL or Packmaster, because both players get into topdeck mode. Cage is good vs us, but i think WRP and/or WLL is a good answer if you suspect Cage (which also blanks NO+Progenitus). Overall i was unlucky vs Esperblade, but felt comfortable enough with enough outs in the deck to turn the game in my favour.

After my break with this deck, Hoofing some players into dust was great and i enjoyed the elvish playstyle once again.

[Kl'rt]

Anyone see Josh Ravitz's latest article on SCG yet?

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28606_A-Hard-Glance-At-Legacy.html

"Reid Duke disagrees with me vehemently, but I think Elves is maybe the worst playable deck in the entire format, boasting what I consider to be almost no good matchups--it's quite good against Death and Taxes--and as a combo deck failing to dodge creature hate, it really is something remarkable."

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Anyone see Josh Ravitz's latest article on SCG yet?

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28606_A-Hard-Glance-At-Legacy.html

"Reid Duke disagrees with me vehemently, but I think Elves is maybe the worst playable deck in the entire format, boasting what I consider to be almost no good matchups--it's quite good against Death and Taxes--and as a combo deck failing to dodge creature hate, it really is something remarkable."

Yeah, I saw it. And let there be many believers of that perspective, please. Let there be an entire wave of Elves-as-meh conformists. Perhaps this way, WoTC will print us up a few more goodies to improve the wonderful challenge that is Elves. Elves is as hard a deck to play well as there has been, especially in the legacy format. It has a decent shot against any deck and is not a shoe in against most because it is so pilot dependent. Other than Hoof, it's hard to say that the deck plays unfair, and even hoof is dependent on creating a robust board state. All this said, I am happy to let the naysayers harp on and on. Llampoon the Llanowars and besmirch the Birchlores all you like, says I. In the end, it is what our best pilots do on the battlefield that counts.

[yaWgnorW]

Yeah, I saw it. And let there be many believers of that perspective, please. Let there be an entire wave of Elves-as-meh conformists. Perhaps this way, WoTC will print us up a few more goodies to improve the wonderful challenge that is Elves. Elves is as hard a deck to play well as there has been, especially in the legacy format. It has a decent shot against any deck and is not a shoe in against most because it is so pilot dependent. Other than Hoof, it's hard to say that the deck plays unfair, and even hoof is dependent on creating a robust board state. All this said, I am happy to let the naysayers harp on and on. Llampoon the Llanowars and besmirch the Birchlores all you like, says I. In the end, it is what our best pilots do on the battlefield that counts.

Hear Hear.

[bakofried]

I just thought it was funny that Elves won the Open the night that article went up. ><

[B4L4]

Ravitz :
Unfortunately, I don't have advanced copies of the T8 decklists from the SCG Open that takes place this and next weekend (at the time of writing), but it would be nice to have an even more complete picture heading into the tournament.

Yeah that's pretty unfortunate since (Elves)
the the worst playable deck in the entire format won that last SCG open defeating (Stoneblade)
a deck people are not playing right now

[Tormod]

Oh boy Josh...

You took the time to write out this article and the only take away is that you like the taste of shoe leather...

[D@N]

MD wrp and sb xenagos are doing some great work for me recently. 3-3 in the miracles mu and ive noticed a vast improvment in the grindy matches like jund and rock.

[shopshopshop]

What land are you using MD to support Xenagos? 1 MD Taiga?

[Lemnear]

MD wrp and sb xenagos are doing some great work for me recently. 3-3 in the miracles mu and ive noticed a vast improvment in the grindy matches like jund and rock.

We are talking aboit the Planeswalker, right? I toyed with him but the red mana just sux. What were your matchups?

[D@N]

Im running 1 taiga main in place of the 3rd forest or trop as i had ruric thar before and he got moved to the sb then cut for more discard. Xenagos is indeed the planeswalker and both is +1 and 0 abilities are just ridiculous. In miracles i have recently been playing 1-2 guys like deathrite and quirion and forcing removal then baiting a counterspell to windmill xenagos. They just cant keep up with the repeatable beats and you can sac them to NO's.

[Kayradis]

Red Mana?
RED MANA!

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRCHLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE RAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR TO THE RESCUE!

[Lemnear]

Red Mana?
RED MANA!

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRCHLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE RAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR TO THE RESCUE!

Not for cute stuff. Garruk does the same against Miracles

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us and our crazy new sb techs at twitch.tv/itsjulian (http://twitch.tv/itsjulian :-)) :-)

[Zombie]

22:33 * coffeeling changes Source forum title to "Supreme Exemplar of Julian
Knab"
22:36 < coffeeling> It is done Kappa

[Reagens]

Could someone please repost the most current sideboarding strategies vs the most common decks?

Specifically:

BUG
Miracles
Delver tempo deck
Combo in general
Jund

Since the sideboard had a thorough rework I would be very interested to know how this changes (if at all) boarding.
MD is an exact copy from Julian :)