[Primer] Elves!

[AznSeal]

What do we do against decks like lands or pox? I pretty much board out the glimpse plan and try to go all out with Progenitus.

[ESG]

What do we do against decks like lands or pox? I pretty much board out the glimpse plan and try to go all out with Progenitus.

Vs. Pox: When you're on the play, try to Glimpse on T2 and dump out guys. Smallpox and other Edict effects are not very effective when you have a bunch of redundant bodies. On the draw, I would try to avoid one-landers due to the high likelihood of losing it to a Smallpox. If Pox is big is your area, you might try Compost. You could try Worldspine Wurm or Hornet Queen, or even Sigarda, as a Natural Order target post-board. It's been a long time since I've run Progenitus, but I don't like him here. Edict effects are the most common form of removal in Pox, so Progenitus has no special protection in the matchup. Since I don't have any targets that are great against Pox, I probably would side out Natural Orders and just try to swarm. Pox is typically a very slow deck, and you can swing past Bloodghast because he can't block. I would bring in Abrupt Decay to hit Ensnaring Bridge, although your guys are often small enough to get in for a few points, and Deathrite Shaman doesn't care about the Bridge. If the Pox deck runs Perish and other sweepers, then I would leave Natural Order in and just try to go for a fast kill, under the assumption that the long game would be unfavorable.

Lands is an easier matchup than Pox. Get Deathrite Shaman and/or Scavenging Ooze online. Board in supplementary graveyard hate if you have any. The biggest threat out of Lands is Marit Lage, so you'll want to be the aggressor and race. It's still a two-card combo that Lands has to assemble, so you usually have a few turns. If you're facing a more combo-centric Lands deck, you will have less time, so you might run a Karakas if you are running Crop Rotation. Lands has no way to stop a Glimpse chain in Game 1, so either a quick Glimpse or a quick Natural Order can get you there. Don't forget Tabernacle triggers. This deck is well-insulated from Tabernacle, but people are really bad about remembering that trigger.

[starfox444]

To me, Miracle is not a grindy matchup but one that is decided by strategic superiority.

Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by that? My understanding at the moment is rather simple; my understanding is that in the miracles match-up I want a high density of high impact cards to minimise the time miracles has to stabilise the game in their favour because we are particularly vulnerable to their large number of sweepers. I also want a variety of cards with minimal set up cost, so I can time my threats and disruption appropriately. I'm not sure how to describe it in terms of "strategic superiority".

[GerMagic]

Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by that? My understanding at the moment is rather simple; my understanding is that in the miracles match-up I want a high density of high impact cards to minimise the time miracles has to stabilise the game in their favour because we are particularly vulnerable to their large number of sweepers. I also want a variety of cards with minimal set up cost, so I can time my threats and disruption appropriately. I'm not sure how to describe it in terms of "strategic superiority".

The way I see it is pretty similar to something that's included in the very first posting. Make them misplay. Make them think your semi-relevant cards are the cards you want to resolve.

If the spend their ressources on your Best-Friends-Team while your real plan is Progenitus (for example when they don't have an active Top and are probably not likely to Terminus you out) or vice-versa that can help you a lot.
While discard isn't particularly good against them on it own, you will have more information about your own gameplan at all times, while I don't really get to know what your gameplan in that particular game will be.

While sweepers are a real threat and spotremoval is annoying we have a lot of gameplans against miracles imo. Especially if you're running Ruric Thar (be it main or SB) zerging them down to 6 (or 8 with a DRS etc.) can be a real gameplan. Good luck Terminusing away my NO target when you're at 6 and it's Ruric Thar :P

Value Glimpse is also very strong since you can (obviously) recover easier from a 4for1 sweeper when three of your four dudes drew you a card.


That being said, thats just my own input, I'm nowhere near as experienced as most of the posters here, just doing a lot of theorycrafting and watching vids etc.^^




EDIT: Being new to the forums I have no idea of the general structere of mtgthesource, but how come that Elves is not in the Decks to Beat forums? I'm not that sure Elves is absolute Tier1, but the description of the Decks to Beat forum says that that's not even entirely needed to get included and from what I'Ve heard and seen on SCG/MTGO so far Elves would certainly qualify?

Edit2: Okay, was going through it and now I see :D it seems a bit weird to name the DTB every single month (makes the DTB Forums way too unstable imo) but I guess it does make some sense. Thoguh that makes the Forum description that the DTB forum has completely off :P

[Kayradis]

It's a long way till November.. A lot can change (well 1 new set anyway) :wink:

I will still bring Elves as a back up deck (and also to play the Mirror against Julian while sipping on tasty beverages!)

[Zombie]

Ye Olde Test Build

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid

2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Joraga Warcaller

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Militant
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize


Mission: Target Miracles, Delver, Storm. Find at least some percentage against Dredge if possible. Show & Tell: Hope they don't run Leyline.


The weird cards:

Warcaller: Nettles are meh oftentimes, but the deck wants 1 drops. Joraga is a 1 drop so it doesn't mess up the engine and is easily fetchable, but can quickly turn a board into a dominant one and guards against sweepers.

Dryad: Hates on Dredge, Storm and (slightly) RUG, which seems like a good cross-section of annoying matchups. Importantly it's just faster than all our other grave hate that either needs an untap or a lot of mana, but otherwise does splendid work. Also beats for 2, so attacks both PiF and Nauseam at the same time.

4 Therapy: Value from Bitterblossom. Mm, yummy.

61 cards, 19 lands: I'm a greedy SOB.

[sawatarix]

Dryad Militant is an interesting one.
i haven't ever tested it yet but in theory it seems great to fight past in flames, ******** in general (cabal ritual) and dredge of course.

unfortunately ant will kill us anyway with an early ad nauseam or a tutor chain in the midgame.
i like the matchup alot when i play ant because there is no way elves can win this matchup consistently.
well, the best way to beat is to slow down the storm player with multiple duress-effects and then drop ruric thar.

how good/bad is our dredge matchup by the way?

please let me know when you have enough testing results with dryad militant, i don't have time to do it on my own.

[Echelon]

please let me know when you have enough testing results with dryad militant, i don't have time to do it on my own.

I've run a number of tournaments with it in my SB and these are my findings so far:

Dryad Millitant has been a great help in the Dredge MU's. It's definetely not an insta-win but getting it out fast at least prevents them DR'ing an Elesh Norn and stopping their Cabal Therapies is a nice bonus. It's mostly there to buy you a lot of time so you can clean up the scary stuff with your DRS's and blow up their Bridges with your own flashbacked Therapies (targeting them, naming Squire obviously).

VS. RUG it's meh - they either tap for R and Bolt it or ignore it all together.

In the Storm-MU it pretty much serves the same purpose as versus Dredge. It forces them to either find an answer for it or to go for the Ad Nauseum-plan (unless ofcourse they can just get there with a nice big tutor-chain, in that case it's still GG). So it's mostly there to buy you the 1-2 turns you need to go for the lethal Hoof or NO in your Ruric Thar - it certainly isn't an end-all. You still need more hate for this MU.

Being able to GSZ for it is really it's biggest plus, but often I'd prefer to be able to clap my hands and make a Tormod's Crypt appear instead. I do think it's worth the slot though, simply because you CAN tutor for it and your opponent will often underestimate it's effect. Be sure to notify your opponent whenever he tries to plop an instant or sorcery in his graveyard though - people tend to forget they have to exile it instead.

As for the Dredge-MU in general - Manaless Dredge should be a good MU since we're faster then it is. LED Dredge is a different beast entirely. We have our hate, they have Firestorm & Dread Return to Elesh Norn (where Manaless just DR's to Balustrade Spy and wins on the spot) and both decks still have the abilitie to go nuts. In my experience it's anyone's game. It is an incredibly fun MU though.

[starfox444]

The way I see it is pretty similar to something that's included in the very first posting. Make them misplay. Make them think your semi-relevant cards are the cards you want to resolve.

Maybe I'm just being picky with words, but that's not when I think of when I think of comparing macro-strategy. I would consider contrasting our combo or our beatdown plan against the miracles control plan more of a strategic comparison. I agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post, we certainly do have the means to fight them with (as we can see from various reasonable versions of sideboards and mains), but what I'm asking is a question of how to describe their efficacy in terms of strategic positioning.

[itzgeist]

Ok guys my current elves list is
Creatures (31)
4 deathrite shaman
1 llanowar elf
3 heritage druid
1 birchlore ranger
3 nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
4 elvish visionary
4 wirewood symbiote
1 reclamation sage
1 wren's run packmaster
2 craterhoof behemoth
1 ruric-thar
2 dryad arbor
Spells (11)
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature
3 natural order

Lands
4 gaea's cradle
4 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 taiga
2 forest

Sb
1 natural order
1 progenitus
1 empyrial archangel
1 scavenging ooze
1 reclamation sage
1 Meekstone
3 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy

The list has been ok in my local group but I am planning on taking it to an scg next month and I am guessing I will see more decks than jund, burn, rug delver, ur delver fish and d 'n' t what cards would you guys suggest or add/ cut to either the main deck or board not sold on the wrp so far but have only gotten him out when I have already been ahead.. Also is this deck better in the current meta right now than esper deathblade or uwr delver as I have both of those decks also ? Thanks

[carlitines]

Ok guys my current elves list is
Creatures (31)
4 deathrite shaman
1 llanowar elf
3 heritage druid
1 birchlore ranger
3 nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
4 elvish visionary
4 wirewood symbiote
1 reclamation sage
1 wren's run packmaster
2 craterhoof behemoth
1 ruric-thar
2 dryad arbor
Spells (11)
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature
3 natural order

Lands
4 gaea's cradle
4 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 taiga
2 forest

Sb
1 natural order
1 progenitus
1 empyrial archangel
1 scavenging ooze
1 reclamation sage
1 Meekstone
3 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy

The list has been ok in my local group but I am planning on taking it to an scg next month and I am guessing I will see more decks than jund, burn, rug delver, ur delver fish and d 'n' t what cards would you guys suggest or add/ cut to either the main deck or board not sold on the wrp so far but have only gotten him out when I have already been ahead.. Also is this deck better in the current meta right now than esper deathblade or uwr delver as I have both of those decks also ? Thanks




I like your list, maybe -1 llanowar, +1 birchlord ranger (because its hability doesnt summon sickness and to pay the red mana for ruric).
In sideboard -1 Reclamation sage (you already have 1 sage in the main and 8 tutors natural&zenits, dont need more), -1 Meekstone you can't search for that and its not a win-card.
And I would add +1 Bitterblossoom (very good with cabal, bahemot and against small pox lilliana jitte etc) and +1 Pithing Needle (jitte stoneforge etc).

In general I like your deck, expecially Empyrial archangel.

[Echelon]

Why did you choose to run the Archangel over Progenitus?

[Elfkid]

Why did you choose to run the Archangel over Progenitus?

With the cuantity of monoRed we´re looking now I think it can be a good choice (Personally, I dont like ruric tar main deck, prefer 2 hoofs and 4 orders, but its only my view point :P )

Regards!

PD: This is my actual sideboard:

3 decay
4 seize
4 cabal
1 ruric
1 prog
2 null rod

[Echelon]

The only mono-red I ever face are Goblins and Imperial Painted Stone. Against the first, the Archangel is only a speedbump and the second doesn't even care about damaging you.

If you get to resolve a NO you might as well just go for Progenitus and close the game in 2 turns rather then durdle about with the Archangel. And including the Archangel only to use it in the Burn-MU... that's just silly.

[nudon]

If you guys want a NO target for the burn match-up, I think Ruric Thar is more than enough. He has cross applications against storm variants. You can also run two oozes (1 main, 1 side). Remember that gsz->reclamation sage kills Eidolon too.

[carlitines]

Why is so important Null Rod???

[Echelon]

You're kidding me..?

Miracles MU, amongst others... It stops half of the counter-top combo.

Also, every artifact that says "cost: do stuff" in other MU's, like equipments.

[Einherjer]

Why is so important Null Rod???

Y u no read stuff pl0x?

Seriously dude, what the fuck? Proper grammar and syntax is required on this boards, addtionally: Just read articles about Elves, read the primer, read what other people in this thread said. Just inform yourself! This is no place where you can just chim in, throw a few words around and be catered everything you need. I am sure that the Elves people are happy helping you on your way, but not in this way, I can assure you.

Greetings

[Dice_Box]

Null Rod shuts off arts that hurt. Just think about what decks run SFM, Vial, Top, Grindstone, Metalworker, Mox...

It's... useful. A little at lest.

Edit:
I do understand that Rod does not stop SFM before some smart ass points that out.

[Echelon]

See? Any artifact that says "cost: do stuff" :tongue:. Sheesh

[dte]

Versus Miracle, rod is good because it stop top and EE.
Vs storm, it shut down LED, petal and moxes.

These are the most important pros because these 2 decks are bad MUs and represented.

Otherwise:
Vs affinity, it is almost an insta win, vs MUD it's quite good too. Vs D&T it stops both vial and jitte.

[Duker99]

As a new elves pilot... What is a sideboard plan against sneak & show. My local meta has about 4-5 guys that play the deck and I have a really hard time beating it. Thanks

[Koopa]

I have tried looking for info on Packmaster but couldn't find anything. What application does he have?

[Blastoderm]

As a new elves pilot... What is a sideboard plan against sneak & show. My local meta has about 4-5 guys that play the deck and I have a really hard time beating it. Thanks

You might need to consider a blue splash for swan song.

[Julian23]

As a new elves pilot... What is a sideboard plan against sneak & show. My local meta has about 4-5 guys that play the deck and I have a really hard time beating it. Thanks

If your meta is THAT rich with Sneak Show (assuming it's your average 20 people weakly Legacy and you expect to run into these guys), you might want to look into having 2-3 Pithing Needles as well as a real Show and Tell hooser such as Confusion in the ranks or Worldspine Wurm; probably the later. Also always side in Progenitus. On top of that, Discard works pretty well against them.

Cards to take out are more long-term oriented stuff such as Scavening Ooze, Wren's Run Packmaster, 1-2 Wirewood Symbiote and Virdian Shaman unless they have Grafdigger's cage. Once Reclamation Sage becomes legal, you obviously wanna keep that. I also usually like going down to 2 Natural Orders despite siding in big dudes; unlike in other matchups, you are very happy to naturally draw them into your hand.

[Dice_Box]

Sage is legal now Julian.

[dte]

I'm a bit surprise by your siding out of 2 NO: in this MU, I try to be as fast as possible, and to achieve that I like to keep NOs.
I think (now that sage is legal) I will do:
+10:
+6 discard (3/3)
+ proge
+ worldspine
+ needle
+ 4th NO

-10:
-3 visio
-3 wirewood symbiot
- ooze
- WRP
-1 nettle
-1 llano

I play 3NO/1WRP, 1 sage, 1 ooze, 1 craterhoof/1 regal, 4/4 heritage/nettle, 1 arbor MD (60 cards)
4th NO in SB, 1/1 needle/rod

Note that in this specific MU, the craterhoof/regal split is especially interesting as dropping regal from S&T is really good. If you play 2 arbor main, you can easily side one out too.

Maybe I like the 3/4th NO because I play the wurm, which cannot be raced too.

But I would really like if you developp a bit more the siding out of NO as I'm sure you have tested the MU much more than me.

[Lemnear]

Elves are more often slipping in & out of the DtB section than tourists do in Berlin's red light district...

[Duker99]

Hi Guys this is great.. I will give it a try tomorrow night

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Elves are more often slipping in & out of the DtB section than tourists do in Berlin's red light district...

No kidding. I guess we like an edgy deck.

[Dice_Box]

Hopefully Sage will help stop the Rotations. It really does a ton for us.

I was watching an guy open a box of M15, he put sage in the rare pile intentionally. I laughed.

[Zombie]

So, report on Ye Olde Test Build (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=822686&viewfull=1#post822686) vs. LED Dredge.

It's horrible. Insanely, godawfully horrible. Probably worse than Reanimator. I'd rather play against Miracles all day.
The evening really hammered down what the problem is. It is card logistics. Elves is fundamentally a set up T1, do stuff T2/T3 deck with a 7 card hand that draws 1 card per turn. LED Dredge is fundamentally a T1-T2 go nuts deck with a hand size of 30 that draws 5-6 cards a turn. Our hate is delayed or massively expensive spot discard, basically. Which does jack against 30 card hands.

Observations:
Cabal Therapy from us is a boss. Therapy on LED T1 is huge, huge, huge and flashback can attack Bridge easily while stripping them of Breakthrough and LEDs.
Breakthrough is so disgustingly broken I want to punch people.
Dryad Militant would be good, but Dredge usually already has something in the yard we need to deal with already.
T2 DRS is too slow.
T1 DRS, T2 GSZ(Dryad) is entirely too slow.
T2 Ooze with a mana or two up is kinda good.
T2 GSZ for Ooze leaves us with no mana to do things with barring some nutdraw.
LED Dredge casts a surprising number of spells. A quick Ruric would probably be great if you can get it.
Flayer is scary, but only super scary if they can get a big troll afterwards.
Attacking Bridge+Narcomoebas is surprisingly profitable and essentially blanks their other stuff.
T1 Dryad => T1 Firestorm is horrible for us. Grab your cards if that happens, you're not winning it unless the Dredge player's draw is plain godawful.

On GSZ:
GSZ is a horrible card. This matchup is defined by a complete and utter lack of time, and cards need to have impact and be efficient as hell. GSZ is just way, way too slow to do anything meaningful here. It retards doing stuff with Therapy while progressing a board, it retards use of T1 Deathrites or T2 Oozes, and it just doesn't remotely threaten a kill. Usually Visionary gets sided out in combo matchups and GSZ stays in, in this case I'd suggest the reverse. GSZ out, Therapy in. T2 Visionary, grab a card, feed the drawn Elf or Visionary itself to Therapy is solid. GSZ is not.

Conclusion: I'm going back to Surgical Extraction for graveyard hate. Dryad could and probably does good work against ANT and Manaless, but against LED Dredge it just doesn't work out due to our card and mana logistics. The GSZ-ability just isn't a factor. Whatever hate we bring in either needs to be free (Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt) so we can have that precious setup turn and do what little we're able to disruption-wise or to prep a combo kill, or it needs to be so crushingly strong they're crying for mommy (RIP, Ruric Thar). Tormod's Crypt would probably be better than Surgical but Dredge is such a small player in the meta it's just not worth it, and Surgical does more work in matchups like Miracles, Delver and Storm which are prevalent atm.

The Surgicals will be on Bridge duty, probably. Fuck Bridge.

New Sideboard, roughly
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Null Rod
2 Bitterblossom
3 Abrupt Decay


Thoughtseize could maybe even just be another Surgical, or a Needle, or something. Maybe the discard split should be 3/2, dunno. If you want game against LED Dredge, you need 4 Therapy.

Rough SB plan vs. LED Dredge, codename Fuckthisshit:
-4 GSZ
-1 Packmaster
-1 Reclamation Sage
(-1 Dryad Arbor)
+4 Therapy
+2 Surgical
(+1 Thoughtseize)

[Havoc]

So, report on Ye Olde Test Build (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=822686&viewfull=1#post822686) vs. LED Dredge.

It's horrible. Insanely, godawfully horrible. Probably worse than Reanimator. I'd rather play against Miracles all day.
The evening really hammered down what the problem is. It is card logistics. Elves is fundamentally a set up T1, do stuff T2/T3 deck with a 7 card hand that draws 1 card per turn. LED Dredge is fundamentally a T1-T2 go nuts deck with a hand size of 30 that draws 5-6 cards a turn. Our hate is delayed or massively expensive spot discard, basically. Which does jack against 30 card hands.

Observations:
Cabal Therapy from us is a boss. Therapy on LED T1 is huge, huge, huge and flashback can attack Bridge easily while stripping them of Breakthrough and LEDs.
Breakthrough is so disgustingly broken I want to punch people.
Dryad Militant would be good, but Dredge usually already has something in the yard we need to deal with already.
T2 DRS is too slow.
T1 DRS, T2 GSZ(Dryad) is entirely too slow.
T2 Ooze with a mana or two up is kinda good.
T2 GSZ for Ooze leaves us with no mana to do things with barring some nutdraw.
LED Dredge casts a surprising number of spells. A quick Ruric would probably be great if you can get it.
Flayer is scary, but only super scary if they can get a big troll afterwards.
Attacking Bridge+Narcomoebas is surprisingly profitable and essentially blanks their other stuff.
T1 Dryad => T1 Firestorm is horrible for us. Grab your cards if that happens, you're not winning it unless the Dredge player's draw is plain godawful.

On GSZ:
GSZ is a horrible card. This matchup is defined by a complete and utter lack of time, and cards need to have impact and be efficient as hell. GSZ is just way, way too slow to do anything meaningful here. It retards doing stuff with Therapy while progressing a board, it retards use of T1 Deathrites or T2 Oozes, and it just doesn't remotely threaten a kill. Usually Visionary gets sided out in combo matchups and GSZ stays in, in this case I'd suggest the reverse. GSZ out, Therapy in. T2 Visionary, grab a card, feed the drawn Elf or Visionary itself to Therapy is solid. GSZ is not.

Conclusion: I'm going back to Surgical Extraction for graveyard hate. Dryad could and probably does good work against ANT and Manaless, but against LED Dredge it just doesn't work out due to our card and mana logistics. The GSZ-ability just isn't a factor. Whatever hate we bring in either needs to be free (Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt) so we can have that precious setup turn and do what little we're able to disruption-wise or to prep a combo kill, or it needs to be so crushingly strong they're crying for mommy (RIP, Ruric Thar). Tormod's Crypt would probably be better than Surgical but Dredge is such a small player in the meta it's just not worth it, and Surgical does more work in matchups like Miracles, Delver and Storm which are prevalent atm.

The Surgicals will be on Bridge duty, probably. Fuck Bridge.

New Sideboard, roughly
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Null Rod
2 Bitterblossom
3 Abrupt Decay


Thoughtseize could maybe even just be another Surgical, or a Needle, or something. Maybe the discard split should be 3/2, dunno. If you want game against LED Dredge, you need 4 Therapy.

Rough SB plan vs. LED Dredge, codename Fuckthisshit:
-4 GSZ
-1 Packmaster
-1 Reclamation Sage
(-1 Dryad Arbor)
+4 Therapy
+2 Surgical
(+1 Thoughtseize)

Dredge is always a bad match for us. They durdle until they win way better than we do. Improving that matchup to me doesn't seem all that important because dredge has fallen out of favor recently. It's not a bad deck just not played. I've been trying your list and that war caller has been winning me games against rug and esper death blade online for the past 2 days. Miracles is still tricky but if you stop their top and just overwhelm them with little guys they have to win on luck alone. And with sage, they can't protect their counterbalance as well. I don't run the bitterblossoms because I don't own any so I still run 2 chokes.

[sawatarix]

is there any combodeck which has a bad elves matchup? i guess not :D
i played elves yesterday in the weekly legacy tournament in berlin in a metagame full of fast combodecks like ant,reanimator,sneakshow and on the other side a ton of miracles.
yeah there were also a few good matchups like shardless bug and rug delver (although i still believe that this matchup is stillnot fantastic)
finally didn't finished well,obviously.
the biggest probolem i see against fast combodecks is the absence of cantrips such as brainstorm to dig for disruption or to hide them against opposing discard.Instead we have to draw them naturally...have to find a solution for these matchup somehow.

[Zombie]

is there any combodeck which has a bad elves matchup? i guess not :D
i played elves yesterday in the weekly legacy tournament in berlin in a metagame full of fast combodecks like ant,reanimator,sneakshow and on the other side a ton of miracles.
yeah there were also a few good matchups like shardless bug and rug delver (although i still believe that this matchup is stillnot fantastic)
finally didn't finished well,obviously.
the biggest probolem i see against fast combodecks is the absence of cantrips such as brainstorm to dig for disruption or to hide them against opposing discard.Instead we have to draw them naturally...have to find a solution for these matchup somehow.

High Tide is disadvantaged vs. Elves. That's the only one I'm aware of though. Maybe Painter or something, but I have no experience against it so I'll keep my mouth shut.

What kind of list did you play, and what kind of sideboard? I think we can make many of those matchups not-horrible if we make a good sideboard.
What was your plan/mentality against other fast combo decks? I find we have to stop thinking of ourselves as combo, really. The playstyle is much more in the vein of some weird delver/MUD hybrid where the aim is to beat down and play hate pieces. Random blowouts with Glimpse/Hoof are just accidental nic stuff. NO=>Thar is just a prison element, as is Null Rod, Thorn and the like. Speaking of which I would never ever play Elves in the current European metagame without Ruric maindeck. That's just asking to lose.

Try the test build I posted earlier. It's aimed squarely at a metagame full of Miracles, fast combo and Delver, and should even fare OK against Sneak & Show if they don't run Leylines (if they do we're fucked).

[Rook1e]

Hi guys. I'm normally just lurking around in here, but Wren's Run Packmaster caught my attention. Can someone tell me why people are playing him? :confused: Thanks

[264505]

Hi guys. I'm normally just lurking around in here, but Wren's Run Packmaster caught my attention. Can someone tell me why people are playing him? :confused: Thanks

Its a game ending threat that doesn't force you to commit additional cards to the board into a sweeper while leaving you with something after the board is wiped. It also seems pretty useful against decks playing things like Abrupt decay and Golgari Charm in hopes of dealing with your board.

[Lemnear]

Its a game ending threat that doesn't force you to commit additional cards to the board into a sweeper while leaving you with something after the board is wiped. It also seems pretty useful against decks playing things like Abrupt decay and Golgari Charm in hopes of dealing with your board.

Not to forget: it absolutely dominates ground combat and creates commulative Wolfs with Cradle

[Zombie]

Not to forget: it absolutely dominates ground combat and creates commulative Wolfs with Cradle

Yeah, the big thing is that it's a resistant source of card advantage, leaving you to accumulate cards in hand for if/when it gets answered - which is hard because it's Bolt-proof, Decay-proof and Symbiote-able. It's just an all-star in grindy creature-based matchups and can do work against Miracles.

[sawatarix]

@ Zombie:

my Sideboard is an overload on disruption:

4 thoughtseize
3 duress
2 flusterstorm
1 null rod
1 pithin needle
3 abrupt decay
1 bitterblossom

and i still lose too many games against combodecks.
my feeling:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/21/asagu8ab.jpg

[Zombie]

@ Zombie:

my Sideboard is an overload on disruption:

4 thoughtseize
3 duress
2 flusterstorm
1 null rod
1 pithin needle
3 abrupt decay
1 bitterblossom

and i still lose too many games against combodecks.
my feeling:

Hehe. Maindeck and boarding plan?

[sawatarix]

maindeck has 4 birchlore Rangers,Ruric Thar and Scavenging Ooze main.

i board out all slow elves like visionary+wirewood symbiote and 1 dryad arbor,should be alright i guess.

[Julian23]

If you really want to make Ruric work, you want to look into Mindbreak Traps. Makes it much easier to turn2 Natural Order. Unfortunately, MB Trap doesn't do anything against the Elves and Sneak Attack.

[dte]

MBT is playable against only few MUs (ANT, TES, belcher), which is not that common, easy to play around and is not tutorable. I will play more discard, Gaddock or envelopp/swan song/flusterstorm, needle/rod before MBT as they cover more very bad MUs.

If storm is more than 15% of any meta, Ruric main and MBT sounds nice. But then playing another deck will sound way better.

[Ornament]

I'm ready to bite the bullet and pick up a tropical island....i tried splashing white for teeg and pridemage but felt it was lackluster. My playgroup consists of miracles, reanimator and other random jank. Would envelop/swan song be worth it?

[Echelon]

Wonderful analysis

Flayer is scary, but only super scary if they can get a big troll afterwards.

More wonderful analysis :smile:

You're mixing Manaless and LED-dredge here - Flayer is only run by Manaless, LED just goes for the zombie-token/Ichorid beats at Mach 23.9.

The problem with LED is that after SB they not only have their crazy speed but also Firestorm and Dread Return to Elesh Norn. Dodging the Firestorms is mostly about pressuring them to dredge rather then draw (by say removing their Ichorids and Bridges so they have to find new ones) and dodging Elesh... Well... Just try to exile any Dread Return/Elesh Norn on sight.

Manaless doesn't present you with this problem after SB'ing, if they DR they'll just go for Balustrady Spy and directly close the game so you know they're not wasting time to find answers.

LED-dredge often will be the tougher one to beat, but it honestly isn't that impossible. Try Abrupt Decay-ing one of your own dorks or flasbacking a Cabal Therapy whenever they have 1 or 2 Bridges in their graveyard, for instance. Also, LED-dredge doesn't have that much food for it's Ichorids - force them to have to keep returnng them (because say their Bridges are dead) and they'll run out of food soon enough. Take note though - this doesn't work quite as well against Manaless, they have more then enough black creatures to feed the Ichorids for several weeks. I also think Swan Song can help us tremendously against LED-dredge. Swan Song-ing their first draw/discard spell might be able to buy you the time you need to find the next piece of hate (be it Dryad Millitant, get a DRS active, freeing the mana for your Scavenging Ooze or draw into that Tormod's Crypt you boarded in) and keep slowing them down enough up to the point where you can overun them with Hoof.

[Zombie]

The guy I played had Flayer in his deck. But he's an old Manaless player so I guess that's why his deck is like a hybrid of the two versions / just old.

I'm skeptical about Swan Song in the matchup because it costs mana, and we need that setup turn for which we really wouldn't have time for already. Therapy is only OK because it pulls double duty by disrupting the blazing fast LED starts and kills Bridges.

I didn't side in Decays, why would you? They're even more horribly slow than 1-mana spells and only really do work vs. Bridge, and for 2 mana that is kind of poor IMO.

[Elfkid]

Another weekend without elves on top16 D:

There are a lot of rug,shardless and taxes that there are good matchups for elves IMO

What so you think about this situation?

Also, about the dredge pair, they are not going to kill us on turn 2-3 always, and, if we start with a deathrite shaman we can win a lot of time to beat them with a natural order or something

I prefer the GB version, I was playing the GBw for the pridemage and gaddock, but now with the reclamation sage we can play more disruption In place of the gaddock (IMO the surgical it's nice vs combo and dredge too)

And how are the bitterblossom? I never tried and I'm interested :P

But as I said is only my opinion haha, I will wait to Julian's new deck list :>

Best Regards!!

[Echelon]

I didn't side in Decays, why would you? They're even more horribly slow than 1-mana spells and only really do work vs. Bridge, and for 2 mana that is kind of poor IMO.

Sure, they're slow but that can help you when you get the opportunity to cast them. Just assuming you'll never get the opportunity to do so seems silly to me. If you extend that line of thought to say the ANT MU, we might as well not SB at all because we'll never get past turn 2 anyway and they'll always have the discard to take our Mindbreak Trap. You know just as well as I do Magic doesn't work like that :smile:.

AD might not be the best card to deal with Dredge but can it help us? Yes, it can. And if you have them in your board anyway, why not use them? Heck, even blasting away something seemingly silly like a Narcomoeba might prevent them from being able to DR an Elesh Norn so you can exile that Norn with your DRS during your next turn (it was summoning sick/tapped the turn you blew up the Narcomoeba, obviously :tongue:).

[Dice_Box]

MBT is playable against only few MUs (ANT, TES, belcher), which is not that common, easy to play around and is not tutorable. I will play more discard, Gaddock or envelopp/swan song/flusterstorm, needle/rod before MBT as they cover more very bad MUs.

If storm is more than 15% of any meta, Ruric main and MBT sounds nice. But then playing another deck will sound way better.

If you are beating Storm players regularly with MBT then they need to get a new deck.

[Julian23]

If you are beating Storm players regularly with MBT then they need to get a new deck.

If you think that you are *beating* a Storm deck with Mindbreak Trap, then you do not understand what role it plays in the matchup.

It's not there to randomly get them, although it sometimes does. It's there to speed you up by a whole turn, allowing for a much quicker kill / Ruric Thar.

[Echelon]

It allows you to buy more time. When you get Probe'd and they see the MBT, you know they won't go off until they have an answer to your MBT, giving you the time to assemble more hate or to get that extra turn you needed to drop Ruric Thar or go for the lethal Hoof.

And that is just what our SB does (mainly) - hold back the opponent a bit so we can get to the point where we can do what we need to do to take the game.

[dte]

MBT gives you time because the storm player should discard it. So if you have a hand with MBT + Glimpse or NO, he have to make a choice when he sees it (either by probe, seize or cabal).
And there is chances that the proper choice (assuming your opponent is not able to go off this very turn) is to let the MBT into your hand.

About dredge, I played a lot versus Manaless and will never play the AD in the MU. You need speed here and not to overSB. I do not see how it could be different vs LED dredge (I never tried AD there).


Otherwise, I still have this question: how many NOs in G2/3 vs S&S? And why?

[Duker99]

Im sure Julian knows best... But i am also interested in why he would side out NOs in the S&S match up.

Btw... went 1-1 against S&S decks over the weekend.

[starfox444]

Otherwise, I still have this question: how many NOs in G2/3 vs S&S? And why?

Depends on how prepared your sideboard is in the matchup, when I was badly prepared for it I would go up to 4 and try to beat them with velocity with either lots of elves or just the hydra based on the texture of hand they are representing, but that was mostly because my sideboard was bad and I couldn't imagine winning any sort of protracted game.

Since there's a lot of it locally I added extra needles and a worldspine wurm so I can imagine being happy with 2-3 NO (personally happy with 3 since they are clunkers in multiples as always) since the needles disable sneak and having wurm/hydra/hoof allows my NOs to always be fine and their show and tells not great. Then you only have to be worried about through the breach coming in which we can't really do anything about. On the upside, breach is slow enough that it seems like a fine thing to have to race and we can point discard spells at it if need be so while breach still puts them at the strategic advantage it just horrible tactically.

[dte]

Since there's a lot of it locally I added extra needles and a worldspine wurm so I can imagine being happy with 2-3 NO

That's something I do not quite understand. With worldspine, a NO is almost gg (pretty much as Ruric vs storm or proge vs D&T before the printing of council's judgment) so one of my main plans is to NO T2/3. Thus I want 4 NOs. Are you not finding this plan good enough because of FoW?

I didn't played the MU a lot (not really represented here, which is great), so I guess you have better experience/understanding on this specific MU. But I really want to be convinced before using someone else SB plan, otherwise I could make strategical mistakes during the game.

Thanks.

[starfox444]

That's something I do not quite understand. With worldspine, a NO is almost gg (pretty much as Ruric vs storm or proge vs D&T before the printing of council's judgment) so one of my main plans is to NO T2/3. Thus I want 4 NOs. Are you not finding this plan good enough because of FoW?

I didn't played the MU a lot (not really represented here, which is great), so I guess you have better experience/understanding on this specific MU. But I really want to be convinced before using someone else SB plan, otherwise I could make strategical mistakes during the game.

Thanks.

I'm just a little on the conservative side and NO is clunkers (4 mana, requires a creature, terrible in multiples, you know the drill). It is probably quite reasonable to plan to NO aggressively, if not correct if you are on the wurmy wurm plan.

[danbuster35]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but has anyone tried Reclamation Sage in the place of Viridian/Qasali/Harmonic?

[Zombie]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but has anyone tried Reclamation Sage in the place of Viridian/Qasali/Harmonic?

There is no "try". There is only "play" because it's better in like 95%+ cases than the existing cards. That is why there is no discussion, because none is needed.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sarnath'ed.

[Julian23]

http://www.mudchix.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/yoda.jpg

When the 2/1 is better than the 2/2 against Engineered Plague, there is no "try."

[Kayradis]

Best movie ever.
Just sayin.

[theross]

There is no "try". There is only "play" because it's better in like 95%+ cases than the existing cards. That is why there is no discussion, because none is needed.

Qasali Pridemage kills Jitte at instant speed. Given that Jitte is far and away the most important card for this card to deal with, I will continue to play the Pridemage. The synergy with Wirewood Symbiote is overrated since it comes up in so few match-ups (DnT, MUD, Affinity, Tezz), most of which are played very rarely. Killing Jitte before it triggers is the most important factor in the decision, accounting for much more than the 5% of cases you assign it.

[lordofthepit]

Qasali Pridemage kills Jitte at instant speed. Given that Jitte is far and away the most important card for this card to deal with, I will continue to play the Pridemage. The synergy with Wirewood Symbiote is overrated since it comes up in so few match-ups (DnT, MUD, Affinity, Tezz), most of which are played very rarely. Killing Jitte before it triggers is the most important factor in the decision, accounting for much more than the 5% of cases you assign it.

I'd argue that synergy with Wirewood Symbiote is also relevant against Miracles, Burn (Eidolon, Bridge, Pillar, possibly Grafdigger's Cage), Enchantress, Painter, and Shardless BUG (all sorts of sideboard cards in addition to maindeck robots) as well. Some of those were already good matchups, but I think cumulatively, that more than makes up for the ability to blow up Jitte at instant speed (and only if they don't have removal for the Pridemage).

[Elfkid]

I don't like play the savannah and don't like play white, I prefer Julian manabase and play reclamation and decay;this kills the jitte instant speed too, (and va the pridemage they can kill it with a bolt, stp, or counter it, the decay not)

I love the reclamation sage, and the sinergy with symbiote it's fu**ing awesome

And what about use the "flex slot" for swan song? Or it's just better the mind break trap?

Regards!^^

[phoenix4]

I too, have never been a fan of the white splash, seems to hinder us as much as the OP usually....
And yeah: I'll trade a RecSage for a E-Plague ANY FUCKING day of the week :D

I'm still on the Jund version of the deck, which gives me access to Ruric-Thar... In DK, there's a fairly combo heavy meta, so a game 1 Ruric-Thar is house :D

[lordofthepit]

Many Elves decks currently play 6 discard spells in their sideboard. I am currently running 5, along with 2 Surgical Extraction (shaving some sideboard slots traditionally dedicated to Delver). I would like to propose that the optimal configuration involves a better split of discard and Surgical Extraction and would like your opinions.

Here is my reasoning:
1) I would never bring in all my discard spells except against dedicated combo. Four discard spells is more than sufficient for any fair deck I can think of.
2) Early discard allows us to bridge our early turns into our midgame, and hopefully our end game, which often involves either a Natural Order for a lethal Hoof or a Ruric Thar. Occasionally, this may involve just attacking with a sea of dorks. During this period, we are susceptible to top decks, and discarding a key combo piece, followed by wiping it out is one way to get rid of this problem entirely.
3) Most of the super fast combo decks (ANT, Reanimator, LED Dredge, Tin Fins, and All Spells) are often too fast and too redundant to be significantly affected by discard, but are extremely susceptible to Surgical Extraction, which I think this can easily take the place of the much more narrow Mindbreak Trap. The only matchups where I'd rather have more discard or Trap are against TES and Belcher.
4) Most of the slower combo decks (Sneak Attack, High Tide, Omniscience) other than the mirror (against which I would rather max out on discard) are blue decks with a ton of cantrips. Discard is terrific in this matchup, but they are very good at protecting the cards on top of their library. Surgical Extraction in combination with discard offers two possibilities: (a) "the dream" of sniping every single copy of their main engine card, or (b) the ability to reset their library after they leave their best card on top with a Ponder in anticipation of discard or to even grab their three best cards if they respond to your discard spell with Brainstorm. Against these decks, I'd argue that the first discard spells are much better than Surgical Extraction, but that Surgical Extraction in combination with discard is better than two discard spells. This is in addition to considerations such as Leyline of Sanctity which is often present in the sideboard of these matchups.
5) Surgical Extraction can also be brought in as gravehate against random fair decks that involve Loam.
6) Surgical Extraction is also great against something like Miracles since it allows you to shuffle their library, fizzle their Snapcaster trigger, and probably most importantly, get rid of all subsequent copies of Terminus (remember to do this in response to the Miracle trigger for most value).

So enough with the theorycrafting. I'm thinking of a 4-3 discard-Extraction split in the seven slots I currently have, but I'm worried that this may not be enough discard.

[apon]

Hi everybody.
I would like advice in some cards changes i saw in new lists :

- bitterblossom: good against Mari Lage and Miracles. Any other pairing you will side in? I think that would be good against RUG or URW delver decks, if casted soon to gain tempo and put creatures in play to make cradle powerful. am i OK?

- Wren's Run Packmaster : dies with STP but could be used against a lot of pairings w/o massive removal. Good agains RUG/UWR delver and all aggro decks. Not good against control or combo.

- Ruric Thar, the Unbowed : i used to play it, removed from my deck but trying it again. Win condition against storm decks and burn!

- cabal therapy. I'm never sure about the card to name if i don't know cards in hand of opponent. LED could be the 1st choice against storm, but if no led in hand i don't like to loose the turn. Ritual or tutor are good options too. I prefer playing duress to be sure of discarding something. Therapy is good if i play gaddock (not my case) to sacrifice it and then play NO FTW.
If someone tells me the main naming for each pairing i will be thankfull.

- progenitus : is good in some pairings, but needs 2 turns to win (to much in some pairings) and could be removed with council's judgement. I don't play it anymore

- Choke : bitterblossom took their slots in my SB. Good against miracles, but not good against decks with decay. Could be good against RUG/UWR delver if enter the battlefield soon, but a delver in play makes me to play other options before choke.

- Pendelhaven : Most elves decks play same 19 lands (2 forest, 9 fetch, 2 dryad, 2 bayou, 4 cradle) + 1. That one could be a 3rd forest, taiga (for ruric), tropical (for swan songs) or pendelhaven. Last one is my current choice, but sometimes my fetches become unusefull (9 fetches for 6 forests instead of 7). Thinking to change 1 fetch for 3rd forest or taiga. What do you think?

[starfox444]

Creatures (33)

2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Dryad Arbor

Lands (17)

3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle

Spells (10)

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order

Sideboard

2 Reclamation Sage
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Cabal Therapy





For a bit of discussion, what do people think of this list played by Nick Kennedy who placed 16th at last week's SCG open. Noticable differences are only 2 NOs in the 75, and 1 Regal Force. Main deck is also not getting techy with the creature base, 0 ooze, 0 reclamation sage main (2 board), 0 packmaster.

The sideboard is also very straightforward, with very few silver bullets.

[Lemnear]

Hi everybody.
I would like advice in some cards changes i saw in new lists :

- bitterblossom: good against Mari Lage and Miracles. Any other pairing you will side in? I think that would be good against RUG or URW delver decks, if casted soon to gain tempo and put creatures in play to make cradle powerful. am i OK?


Bitterblossom is slow ... very slow. Your biggest issue against Delver will be that your 2cc enchantment is pointless after they drop their second creature and just curbstomp you. Even against miracles I believe it is not what you are looking for to turn the matchup upside down as sweeping the board with terminus turn 3-4 and dropping 2-3 angels is still deadly

- Wren's Run Packmaster : dies with STP but could be used against a lot of pairings w/o massive removal. Good agains RUG/UWR delver and all aggro decks. Not good against control or combo.


It does not die to StoP as you can and should protect it with Symbiote. It's fine against control as it is a real threat at a pretty low card investment and Wolfs + cradle gets really nasty while even after a sweeper you have 1 elf left thanks to the champion ability.

- Ruric Thar, the Unbowed : i used to play it, removed from my deck but trying it again. Win condition against storm decks and burn!


you asume that Storm isn't playing Chain or Vapor or burn isn't just bolting him or you (if Ruric comes down turn 3-4 and your life is already low)?

- cabal therapy. I'm never sure about the card to name if i don't know cards in hand of opponent. LED could be the 1st choice against storm, but if no led in hand i don't like to loose the turn. Ritual or tutor are good options too. I prefer playing duress to be sure of discarding something. Therapy is good if i play gaddock (not my case) to sacrifice it and then play NO FTW.
If someone tells me the main naming for each pairing i will be thankfull.


Rule of thumb: If there's no LED in their hand, you're not loosing turn 1. Period. Ritual or Tutor are plain bad choices for a blind-Therapy in 100% of cases. You never noticed that Packmaster + Therapy shreds your opponents alone thanks to the flashback of Therapy via wolf tokens?

I can tell you what to name in every matchup with one simple sentence: "Name what you fear"

- progenitus : is good in some pairings, but needs 2 turns to win (to much in some pairings) and could be removed with council's judgement. I don't play it anymore


i hope the random 1-2 CJ's in some lists aren't your sole Point for dismissing the Hydra God. It's still a solid choice for control matchups in which you can't swarm your opponent with elves and a hoof but have to win on the back of 1-2 creatures a time

- Choke : bitterblossom took their slots in my SB. Good against miracles, but not good against decks with decay. Could be good against RUG/UWR delver if enter the battlefield soon, but a delver in play makes me to play other options before choke.


I first wanna see a BUG deck being able to cast Decay against Choke, before dismissing it as an option from the Start. Basics are still rare in most BUG decks. Overcoming a single delver shouldn't be a problem at all if your opponent can't back it up with more creatures, removal, counters or cantripping into those as his mana is locked down

- Pendelhaven : Most elves decks play same 19 lands (2 forest, 9 fetch, 2 dryad, 2 bayou, 4 cradle) + 1. That one could be a 3rd forest, taiga (for ruric), tropical (for swan songs) or pendelhaven. Last one is my current choice, but sometimes my fetches become unusefull (9 fetches for 6 forests instead of 7). Thinking to change 1 fetch for 3rd forest or taiga. What do you think?


never cut fetches for fancy stuff. If you want to fill the 20th land slot with value but don't want to dedicate it to your SB options, run more fetches instead of less and improve your access to Bayou and Basic Forest to support DRS and fight Bloodmoon

Edit:

For a bit of discussion, what do people think of this list played by Nick Kennedy who placed 16th at last week's SCG open. Noticable differences are only 2 NOs in the 75, and 1 Regal Force. Main deck is also not getting techy with the creature base, 0 ooze, 0 reclamation sage main (2 board), 0 packmaster.

The sideboard is also very straightforward, with very few silver bullets.

Regal is crap; no Sage in the MB is madness now that Miracles and SFM cover a large part of the metagame. Packmaster just dominates any fair or aggro-related matchup like Jund or Junk

[Zombie]

Hi everybody.
I would like advice in some cards changes i saw in new lists :

- bitterblossom: good against Mari Lage and Miracles. Any other pairing you will side in? I think that would be good against RUG or URW delver decks, if casted soon to gain tempo and put creatures in play to make cradle powerful. am i OK?

- Wren's Run Packmaster : dies with STP but could be used against a lot of pairings w/o massive removal. Good agains RUG/UWR delver and all aggro decks. Not good against control or combo.

- Ruric Thar, the Unbowed : i used to play it, removed from my deck but trying it again. Win condition against storm decks and burn!

- cabal therapy. I'm never sure about the card to name if i don't know cards in hand of opponent. LED could be the 1st choice against storm, but if no led in hand i don't like to loose the turn. Ritual or tutor are good options too. I prefer playing duress to be sure of discarding something. Therapy is good if i play gaddock (not my case) to sacrifice it and then play NO FTW.
If someone tells me the main naming for each pairing i will be thankfull.

- progenitus : is good in some pairings, but needs 2 turns to win (to much in some pairings) and could be removed with council's judgement. I don't play it anymore

- Choke : bitterblossom took their slots in my SB. Good against miracles, but not good against decks with decay. Could be good against RUG/UWR delver if enter the battlefield soon, but a delver in play makes me to play other options before choke.

- Pendelhaven : Most elves decks play same 19 lands (2 forest, 9 fetch, 2 dryad, 2 bayou, 4 cradle) + 1. That one could be a 3rd forest, taiga (for ruric), tropical (for swan songs) or pendelhaven. Last one is my current choice, but sometimes my fetches become unusefull (9 fetches for 6 forests instead of 7). Thinking to change 1 fetch for 3rd forest or taiga. What do you think?

Bitterblossom: It's for slow white control matchups - usually Miracles and Blade - as well as UB Tezzeret. It's probably just too slow against Delver oftentimes, but I really want to get some testing done on that. Still, it's probably bad because it's too slow.

Packmaster: Good against nearly every fair matchup. Is hard to remove (Decay+Bolt-proof), doesn't necessarily have to attack, and with Cradle just takes over games with ease, if a 5/5 body didn't do that already. Can protect a guy from Terminus and force Miracles to Terminus or lose. She's a fair game all star.

Ruric: Often a win against Storm and sometimes against Burn, yes. Can also do good work on the board against RUG. Primary ability is turning tapped-out NOs/big GSZs into pseudo-kills which speeds up the deck dramatically in the combo mirror.

Therapy: Is a boss. Be mindful of treating ANT and TES differently - against ANT you probably have a turn, so play a T1 dork, T2 fire off the Therapy. Against TES you have much less time, so T1 Therapy for LED is where you probably want to be. You can use Surgical to scout for the Therapy sometimes, which is sweet.

Progenitus: Worldspine Wurm does the same or better in nonwhite matchups usually, but I keep Progenitus around for Maverick and to an extent D&T which are quite cold to it but laugh at Worldspine. Progenitus is also much better against Miracles because it needs more specific answers.




you asume that Storm isn't playing Chain or Vapor or burn isn't just bolting him or you (if Ruric comes down turn 3-4 and your life is already low)?


In modern Burn double-bolting a Ruric often means 16 to the dome. CoV exists but I think you oversell Ruric's answerability. How many lists even run 3?

[apon]

Thanks for the reply.

You mean globally it's better choke than Bitterblossom? Maybe choke is better than bitterblossom against miracles. But bitterblossom is the best option against dark depths i think and also works against miracles. I took that decision according to my local meta.

I play Ruric in main and Packmaster in side. Aggainst aggro i can play freely lots of elves because in G1 they don't have massive removal like golgari charm or zealous. In G2/3 it's diferent and packmaster is a very good way.
The same with ruric, for storm. In G1 it's GG and my unique option, in G2 we have to combine with discard.

What about meekstone? i have doubts about 3 decay + 1 meekstone or 4 decays SB. Decay is more usefull.

The big problem with progenitus is drawing it. I'm a expert in that task. Massive removal or CJ are 2 added problems.

What is a decklist you are playing currently?

[Lemnear]

The same with ruric, for storm. In G1 it's GG and my unique option, in G2 we have to combine with discard.[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Zombie;825248]In modern Burn double-bolting a Ruric often means 16 to the dome. CoV exists but I think you oversell Ruric's answerability. How many lists even run 3?

With Eidolon and Thalia in the metagame, you should be prepared to face CoV from various storm decks. ANT currently runs 3 CoV in the side while TES as two, but with the printing of Void Snare the Wish variants have even more outs to Ruric Thar which makes a total of 6 aside the Option to delay your ruric with discard for your NO/GSZ or simply kill you before the banisher of cowards enters the battlefield.

The idea of "Ruric = win" is a bit arrogant

[Julian23]

It puts them on the spot for having Chain in hand right now AND probably be able to win on the following turn, which is very good odds.

Other than the Ruric Thar, the general plan vs Storm, especially ANT, has always been to get them down to 12 asap with an active DRS or Ooze, preferably with an Quirion Ranger around as well. TES has better odds of still living through an AdN from 10 respectively 8 life, but I like the odds there.

[danyul]

Many Elves decks currently play 6 discard spells in their sideboard. I am currently running 5, along with 2 Surgical Extraction (shaving some sideboard slots traditionally dedicated to Delver). I would like to propose that the optimal configuration involves a better split of discard and Surgical Extraction and would like your opinions.

Here is my reasoning:
1) I would never bring in all my discard spells except against dedicated combo. Four discard spells is more than sufficient for any fair deck I can think of.
2) Early discard allows us to bridge our early turns into our midgame, and hopefully our end game, which often involves either a Natural Order for a lethal Hoof or a Ruric Thar. Occasionally, this may involve just attacking with a sea of dorks. During this period, we are susceptible to top decks, and discarding a key combo piece, followed by wiping it out is one way to get rid of this problem entirely.
3) Most of the super fast combo decks (ANT, Reanimator, LED Dredge, Tin Fins, and All Spells) are often too fast and too redundant to be significantly affected by discard, but are extremely susceptible to Surgical Extraction, which I think this can easily take the place of the much more narrow Mindbreak Trap. The only matchups where I'd rather have more discard or Trap are against TES and Belcher.
4) Most of the slower combo decks (Sneak Attack, High Tide, Omniscience) other than the mirror (against which I would rather max out on discard) are blue decks with a ton of cantrips. Discard is terrific in this matchup, but they are very good at protecting the cards on top of their library. Surgical Extraction in combination with discard offers two possibilities: (a) "the dream" of sniping every single copy of their main engine card, or (b) the ability to reset their library after they leave their best card on top with a Ponder in anticipation of discard or to even grab their three best cards if they respond to your discard spell with Brainstorm. Against these decks, I'd argue that the first discard spells are much better than Surgical Extraction, but that Surgical Extraction in combination with discard is better than two discard spells. This is in addition to considerations such as Leyline of Sanctity which is often present in the sideboard of these matchups.
5) Surgical Extraction can also be brought in as gravehate against random fair decks that involve Loam.
6) Surgical Extraction is also great against something like Miracles since it allows you to shuffle their library, fizzle their Snapcaster trigger, and probably most importantly, get rid of all subsequent copies of Terminus (remember to do this in response to the Miracle trigger for most value).

So enough with the theorycrafting. I'm thinking of a 4-3 discard-Extraction split in the seven slots I currently have, but I'm worried that this may not be enough discard.

I really like this plan in theory. How has it been in practice? What kind of sideboard concessions have you had to make to fit in all those Surgicals? Do you find yourself boarding them in sometimes where it isn't 100% appropriate, just for the thrill of trying to "get" somebody? Perhaps a 5-2 split would be more appropriate? There was a Ponder vs Preordain thread where they agreed that the Preordain is better as the third cantrip, whereas the Ponder is better as first two. This is similar to your 4th point. However, you don't get to choose in which order you draw your cards, so perhaps it would be best to hedge your bets and run a 5/2 split, to ensure that you hit that discard spell first instead of a Surgical?

Just some thoughts.

[Zombie]

5 discard

2 surgical
prog/worldspine
2 bitterblossom

2 null rod / needle
3 decay

= good board. Needs that 4th NO main tho.

[lordofthepit]

I really like this plan in theory. How has it been in practice? What kind of sideboard concessions have you had to make to fit in all those Surgicals? Do you find yourself boarding them in sometimes where it isn't 100% appropriate, just for the thrill of trying to "get" somebody? Perhaps a 5-2 split would be more appropriate? There was a Ponder vs Preordain thread where they agreed that the Preordain is better as the third cantrip, whereas the Ponder is better as first two. This is similar to your 4th point. However, you don't get to choose in which order you draw your cards, so perhaps it would be best to hedge your bets and run a 5/2 split, to ensure that you hit that discard spell first instead of a Surgical?

Just some thoughts.

I've been recently running actually running a 5-2 split: 3 Decay, 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Null Rod, 1 Rclamation Sage, and 1 Ruric Thar in the sideboard, although I constantly change things and I'm by no means locked into this.

I haven't had enough matches with this configuration to tell you how it's worked "in practice". I have brought in Surgical Extraction against both my Miracles opponents, but so far, I've never had the opportunity to use them (they never found a second Terminus before I won those games, although one of them Cliqued away my Surgical instead of other more threatening cards in hand).

The first discard spell is much better than Surgical Extraction against the slow combo matchups, but I'd argue that our worst combo matchups are actually the fast ones I mentioned in section three (ANT, Reanimator, LED Dredge, Tin Fins, All Spells, TES, and Belcher). Furtheremore, in all of these matchups other than TES and Belcher, I believe that Surgical Extraction is faster and more disruptive against than discard, and the combination of the two is even more devastating.

My question is whether the considerations in favor of Surgical Extraction (primarily against fast combo and random Loam strategies) justify shaving the 5th discard spell for a 3rd Extraction, at the cost of weakening the slow combo matchups (where I'm not entirely sure I'd want Surgical at all, but where it certainly remains a consideration).

[starfox444]

I figured I would chime in with my brief time playing surgical extraction. Surgical has always treated me well and added a very different dynamic to the miracles matchup. My common uses were to remove terminus and trump graveyard based combo, as well as exile punishing fires. In regards to sideboard construction, I shift around the metagame dependant combo slots the most frequently. Sometimes I have a sylvan library for grindy matchups but the only thing that ever stays the same are at least 3 abrupt decay and at least 2 hand disruption spells.




My question is whether the considerations in favor of Surgical Extraction (primarily against fast combo and random Loam strategies) justify shaving the 5th discard spell for a 3rd Extraction, at the cost of weakening the slow combo matchups (where I'm not entirely sure I'd want Surgical at all, but where it certainly remains a consideration).

I think Surgical is primary an anti combo card and useful if you are playing an endless sea of punishing fire. If you are facing a lot of graveyard combo I think going up to 3 is reasonable just because it provides relevant interaction on turn 0 where we would otherwise have none, where a mass of discard is often too slow. I always want the first discard spell and sometimes the second, but after I've spent a mana to buy myself 2-3 turns I want to shift gears and actually kill my opponent.

[Alexeezay]

Now with the new lists with WRP, what is the best 1mana dork configuration between Birchlore, Heritage and Llanowar? I thought I would just run 1 Birchlore, 4 Heritage, 0 Llanowar (I'm playing 61 cards with Ruric, Sage, 3 NO and trying the WRP out)

also: how do you feel about Meekstone atm? Just ordered a 7th foil copy yesterday :)

[Lemnear]

Now with the new lists with WRP, what is the best 1mana dork configuration between Birchlore, Heritage and Llanowar? I thought I would just run 1 Birchlore, 4 Heritage, 0 Llanowar (I'm playing 61 cards with Ruric, Sage, 3 NO and trying the WRP out)

also: how do you feel about Meekstone atm? Just ordered a 7th foil copy yesterday :)

I don't know why you need 7 meekstones ;P

Birchlores are not required if you a) run 2 colors only, b) are not too fond of machinegun DRS for the midgame c) don't want to run too many cards supporting the fragile Glimpse combo, d) want more cards which actually do something on their own. Hertiages require several elves in play to feed NO, GSZ or Glimpse combo mainly, but Controlling 3+ creatures can become a real problem with Terminus, Deluge and Golgari Charm. Llanowars are solid for the early game and to rebuild after a sweeper, but do we really need more than 8 T1 accelerator? I doubt that.

Personally, I chopped the Nettle/Heritage core as well as the NO/Hoof package for Crop Rotations (+ toolbox lands like Bog/Karakas against Reanimator, SneakShow and dredge which are bad matchups) and more Packmasters to play a more stable midrange gameplan as I have the impression that stomping your opponent with Hoof for lethal is not only less common with all the sweepers in the metagame but also not required against the average meat most opponents control on their side of the battlefield. The creature/spell ratio didn't change much, so I'm still able to run Glimpse as a creature-fueled Ancestral Recall

[Zombie]

I don't know why you need 7 meekstones ;P

Birchlores are not required if you a) run 2 colors only, b) are not too fond of machinegun DRS for the midgame c) don't want to run too many cards supporting the fragile Glimpse combo, d) want more cards which actually do something on their own. Hertiages require several elves in play to feed NO, GSZ or Glimpse combo mainly, but Controlling 3+ creatures can become a real problem with Terminus, Deluge and Golgari Charm. Llanowars are solid for the early game and to rebuild after a sweeper, but do we really need more than 8 T1 accelerator? I doubt that.

Personally, I chopped the Nettle/Heritage core as well as the NO/Hoof package for Crop Rotations (+ toolbox lands like Bog/Karakas against Reanimator, SneakShow and dredge which are bad matchups) and more Packmasters to play a more stable midrange gameplan as I have the impression that stomping your opponent with Hoof for lethal is not only less common with all the sweepers in the metagame but also not required against the average meat most opponents control on their side of the battlefield. The creature/spell ratio didn't change much, so I'm still able to run Glimpse as a creature-fueled Ancestral Recall

Obligatory question: List?

[Lemnear]

Obligatory question: List?


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Crop Rotation
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vengevine
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Wren's Run Packmaster

[Zombie]

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Crop Rotation
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vengevine
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Wren's Run Packmaster

Is that an intentionally 62 card maindeck?

[Lemnear]

Is that an intentionally 62 card maindeck?

Nope, sry


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Crop Rotation
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vengevine
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

[HSCK]

Nope, sry


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Crop Rotation
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vengevine
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Wren's Run Packmaster


What kind of list is this....and I why do I have the urge to try it out?

[Julian23]

I don't really wanna discuss the list Peter posted. Just one thing: a dedicated Midrange Build wants at least 1 Cavern of Souls.

[HSCK]

Are you on Packmaster as a SB card now? How is it compared to BB? I'm also wondering if a 1-of Edric is worth it in the MD like the deck that placed in Portland.

[danyul]

I was watching that Portland elf pilot and he said that Edric helped him beat Miracles several times. You just stick Edric and one or two other bodies and draw your way out of anything. He seemed quite happy with its inclusion.

[Elfkid]

I was watching that Portland elf pilot and he said that Edric helped him beat Miracles several times. You just stick Edric and one or two other bodies and draw your way out of anything. He seemed quite happy with its inclusion.

Edric seems good in the deck, but I prefer ruric maindeck (Im playing in Europe, so the meta is lot of combo haha)

I think one guy, Ian anderson I think he played the 2 cards in the same deck

EDIT: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14008&iddeck=103064

Here is the decklist, he was playing ruric in maindeck and edric in sideboard, but he has not mode to fetch taiga D:

[Lemnear]

I was watching that Portland elf pilot and he said that Edric helped him beat Miracles several times. You just stick Edric and one or two other bodies and draw your way out of anything. He seemed quite happy with its inclusion.

Isn't sticking 3-4 creatures the main Problem? Edric has a big targed on his head for Bolts, Plows and Decays while also requiring a color splash.

[ThePrevailer]

Hey guys, I'm the Elves player from SCG Portland. Unfortunately my job prevented me from writing a tournament report, but I'll go through what I remember about my matchups and my list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14079&iddeck=103566).

ON EDRIC:
I had a big long thing about Edric, but my computer crashed so now you get the short version. Edric is excellent as a GSZ target at 3 mana. I added him so that I could have more threats in the midgame before I had enough mana to Zenith for Hoof. I was not disappointed. Against Miracles, you get to recoup some lost card advantage, and against Terminus he's still a live GSZ target. I instantly won a game in the Swiss v RUG when Edric stuck for one combat step and I drew 4 cards, and RUG can never recover from that. He's create against decks that want to stop your combo by mind twisting you as well.

There is also a nonzero amount of benefit in simply playing a Trop. I always fetched it early if convenient in games 2 and 3, and watch as my opponents play around potential counters or whatever they think I needed the Trop for. Sometimes a combo opponent will wait an extra turn to play around your blue mana, and sometimes that one turn is all you need.

ON MY SIDEBOARD
My SB - Core: Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm, Ruric Thar, Natural Order, 3 Abrupt Decay, 4 Cabal Therapy, Viridian Shaman (now Reclamation Sage)
My Sb - flex slots: Sylvan Library for Miracles, midrange, and discard decks, Pithing Needle for thing I want to Needle, Null Rod for Miracles, Death n Taxes, Jitte, MUD

Library was a sweet SB card, allowing me to go off against Jund after starting the turn with 0 cards in hand.

Therapy is way better than Thoughtseize if you know the Legacy metagame. In one game (in the Swiss, against Brad, who would eventually knock me out of Top 8) I hit 2 Show n Tell turn 1 followed by a Sneak Attack turn 2 off flashback.
ALTHOUGH, if you read this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/quarterfinals_christopher_wess.html) very closely, you'll see that I made a misplay with Therapy. Agaisnt my SnS opponent, I Therapied turn 2 with flashback up, he Brainstormed in response, and I saw Griselbrand, Force of Will, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, mana. I flashed back for Griselbrand, when I should have named Emrakul since it would shuffle his library. I didn't see this line until Andrew Shrout and I were talking about it after the match, but it makes so much sense now that I see it, and the missplay cost me a shot at top 4.

That said, play Thoughtseize if you don't know the metagame to the point where you can recite decklists.

BRIEF TOURNAMENT REPORT
To the best of my recollection, in the Swiss I played
Jund 2-0: In game 2 I paid 20 life into Sylvan Library, and got to glimpse combo starting with 0 cards in hand.
Junk 2-0: They're pretty slow, make sure you have Decays for Teeg. He had Spirit of the Labyrinth, and I lamented not having Reclamation Sage yet. Still, he wasn't playing evasive creatures, and didn't have removal to stop all our tricks.
Sneak 'n' Show 2-0: Game 1 he playing nothing but sol lands and a lotus petal, but discards a Sneak Attack (?!) to hand size the turn before he dies. I would have just scooped. Game 2 Therapy aka Mind Twist eats him.
Omnitell 2-0: A slower Sneak 'n' Show. These decks seems SO clunky if they don't draw the nuts. Game 1 I was faster. Game 2 he sided 0 cards, and I was still faster.
RUG 2-1: I never knew how good Edric was against RUG until this match.
Shardless BUG 0-2 (the eventual winner): I couldn't beleive I lost this match. I think including this match, my overall record is like 17-2 in matches vs. various Shardless pilots. I lost basically to mana screw in both games, where he had a Jace to stop be from drawing the lands I needed. Still not quite sure how it happened, but I know I kept at least 1 single land hand because I'm not used to Shardless playing Wasteland.
Sneak 'n' Show v Gerry T 2-0: His deck pooped on him. I was talking to a friend after the match who was standing behind him, and he said he had never seen that deck draw so poorly. G2 I probably played Therapy and Needle, but I don't remember much other that I was glad to have a noninteractive MU after losing the last round.

Don't remember what the last round I played was, but I know I ID'd vs. Oops all Spells

I do remember chewing gum all day, and in addition to making me not hungry, it seemed to made each round a little more casual, where I could be less stressed and more focused on the intricacies of the deck.

I'd be happy to entertain any questions about anything.

[Zombie]

Why no Shaman maindeck? I think it's too good to not play MD, especially in the US.
Ruric in the board and generally light Storm hate is fine given you're in the US I guess.

Personally, Ian Anderson's deck looks hilarious in its brazen greed. All the extras crammed into one deck. 3 NO+Edric main, 1 NO side is probably a better configuration than 4 NO main, Edric in the side. I'd feel tempted to switch from 3 Therapy, 2 Seize, 2 Song, 1 Trap to 4 Therapy, 2-3 Song, 1-2 Surgical, but dunno.

[LeoCop 90]

Top 4'ed a 30 people local event today with julian's exact list except for minor changes in sideboard (mainly the 4th natural order and a worldspine wurm in place of the second null rod and choke).

There were 3 death and taxes and i managed to be paired against them all in the swiss so you can imagine my life was easy. I even won a game on a mull to 5 with cratherhoof in hand against taxes. I also incredibly won against all spells (his deck lost to itself).

I then won a very interesting match against a u/w stoneforge brew running nemesis, mirran crusader, and very annoying envelopes in sideboard.

I unfortunately lost the semifinals against jund, despite my super tech of worldspine wurm that i love because i have lost too many times to toxic deluge=10 killing progenitus. Game 1 i made what i feel was my only mistake in the day: i kept a 7 card hand that looked decent on paper because it had 3 lands and 4 spells, except for the fact that the spells were all the one of in the deck, namely reclamation sage, scavenging ooze, wren's run packmaster and a birchlore ranger. Even though ooze and packmaster are not bad against jund the hand didn't do anything remotely powerful enough to overcome all the discard plus removal spells. Game 2 i managed to resolve natural order into wurm = win. Game 3 i had double natural order in hand , cradle and everything i needed to slam wurm even through a thoughtseize plus removal spell, but he wiped my board with toxic deluge the turn before i could resolve natural order and i never recovered. It felt heartbreaking, but he just had the nut hand of punishing+ grove+ deluge+liliana+ lands while i mulled to 6.... all i could do to win was natural order on turn 2.

Got a scrubland for my troubles. What disappointed me is that i never had the occasion to see packmaster shine, but i am sure he is a beast and will do work in the future.

[Juice11]

I played in a fairly large tournament this weekend, and although I didn't do to well, the Packmaster was great all day. Most decks just don't know what to do against it. I think it might be a sideboard card for me though. I never really felt the need for it in any of my first games and it can be a bit clunky in the opening hand.

[AznSeal]

So right now I have a Wren's Run Packmaster and Scavenging Ooze main deck. I also run 4 DRS, 1 Llanowar, and 1 Birchlore. What is everyone's opinion on cutting either packmaster or ooze to SB to run one more mana dork (either another llanowar or birchlore)?

Also, can y'all post what SB you'd use? I live in the United States so the SCG metagame generally has more delver decks than miracles/combo like Europe. Burn also seems to be common here as well so i'm considering Ruric Thar. The 2 Surgical Extractions used to be Thoughtseize until I got dumpstered by Reanimator like 17 times in a row online.

My SB is currently:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order

and my maindeck is:

Creatures: 29
1 Birchlore Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

Lands: 20
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothill
1 Pendelhaven
2 Dryad Arbor

Sorceries: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Opinions? Basically, how would you fine tune my 75 against an American metagame? I feel like my maindeck is a bit clunky, but Wren and Ooze is so good against a lot of fair decks. I just get dumpstered by fast combo decks, but every time I want to use Thoughtseize, i'd rather have Surgical Extraction, and vice versa. I guess I need to get better with Cabal Therapy....

[ThePrevailer]

Last night I 4-0'd a 32 person event with my list from a couple posts ago, splashing Edric for the control matchups. I beat Maverick, Miracles (off of Edric), Shardless BUG, and RUG. It seems fine for the American metagame, though admittedly I have yet to try Packmaster.

[yosoyez]

Hey guys! This is my first time posting here, but i wanted to do a quick tournament report for a top 8 I made for a 100 man tournament for a decently known store called MTG Deals.

maindeck is:

Creatures: 29
1 Birchlore Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ruric Thar

Lands: 20
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothill
1 Tropical Island
2 Dryad Arbor

Sorceries: 12
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swan Song
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Worm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library

Round 1: 2-1 Miracles
This guy was a pretty skilled player, but I was able to go off turn one before he could get his countertop combo online. Game two, I kept a pretty greedy hand, and he got his combo out turn 2, which made it really hard to do anything. I scooped a couple turns after that. Game 3, was a long and tedious one, but after rebuilding my board a few times, i was able to poke and DRS him to death on turn 4 of turns.

Sideboard Plan:
1 sylvan libary
1 progenitus
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
2 swan songs
3 abrupt decays

Round 2: 0-2 U/R Delver
Im not sure how you guys feel about this match up, but I felt like it was really bad for us. Being able to pick off our dudes, while making his own with young pyromancer made him out tempo me like crazy. And on top of that, he counters any of our solid threats. They always have the force...always.

sideboard plan:
1 sylvan library
1 progenitus
3 abrupt decays

round 3: 2-0 Death and taxes
This was a pretty easy match up. I got out a non lethal crater hoof early on in game one, and he blocked for a while with mother of runes up and a revoker on my heritage druid, but was finally able to get another hoof out for exactsies for 5 damage. Game 2 went pretty quickly with a turn 3 lethal hoof.

sideboard plan:
3 abrupt decays
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 sylvan library
1 progenitus

round 4: 2-0 Jund Lands/Dark Depths
Never having play tested this, I was a bit unclear on what was going on, but when i saw an early punishing fire, i GSZed an ooze early, and after about 2-3 turns of me eating everything that went into his graveyard, he scooped. Game 2 was a great game. Went back in forth, and i was finally able to get an ooze but he made short work of it. Have durdling for a while i eventually got out a progenitus. After attacking with Progenitus once, he was able to swing at me for 20 with the flyer, but being at 26 due to grove, I was out of reach for him to recur the punishing fire, and i took he game with the progenitus.

sideboard plan:
2 abrupt decays
pithing needle
sylvan library
progenitus

round 5: 2-0 Elves
Game one, we both had almost identical starts, but I was able to get out the combo a turn quicker which made him have to block with all his dudes. Game two i thoughtseized him a couple of times, and got the combo out around turn 4 after he mulled to five

sideboard plan:
2 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapies

round 6: 2-0 Sneak and Show
He got a slow draw game one, i was able to go off pretty early on and take it. Game two we both had slow starts. Swan song did work against a pyroclasm. but i was able to NO a worldspine worm into play. He scooped.

sideboard plan:
2 swan songs
2 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
1 progentius
1 pithing needle
1 worldspine worm

round 7: 2-0 Jund Depths/Dark Depths again
He turn ones tabernacle after i get out a DRS. However, a turn 4 ruric thar cornered him into doing almost nothing but using maze of ith the whole game. However, with a Gaea's cradle on board and a heritage druid out, paying the tabernacle and attacking him with 1/1's one me the game. Game 2 he gets out the turn one tabernacle again, but i get out the turn 1 pithing needle on Thespian's stage. That bought me enough time to get out an exact 15 damage hoof for the win the turn before he would have killed me. Felt good man.

This match made me top seed in the top 8.

sideboard plan:
1 progenitus
1 pithing needle
1 sylvan library

Conclusions: Very happy with the way my main board and sideboard played out. At first i was going to run the Wren's, however, last minute i switched to the ruic thar in the main and i am very happy with the decision. While Wren's is an awesome card in some match ups, in others it just takes too long to get online and Ruric at worst was a 6/6 with reach and did work against most decks.

My sideboard allstars were for sure Swan song and Sylvan library. They both were used in some clutch situations and helped me get the wins in some cornered situations. I'd definitely recommend splashing the blue and giving it a try.

my and my quarter finals opponent cut a deal and i walked away with 1 volcanic island, 1 tropical island, and 2 bayous. Which is great because he was playing miracles... which is just terrible for us.

Thanks for reading! please reply/message if you guys have any questions/opinions.

[danyul]

Now with the new lists with WRP, what is the best 1mana dork configuration between Birchlore, Heritage and Llanowar? I thought I would just run 1 Birchlore, 4 Heritage, 0 Llanowar (I'm playing 61 cards with Ruric, Sage, 3 NO and trying the WRP out)

also: how do you feel about Meekstone atm? Just ordered a 7th foil copy yesterday :)

I think a "progressive" list would have 1 Llanowar, 3 Heritage/3 Nettle, and 2 Birchlore.

Also, Meekstone is great if Delver decks are a large part of your meta. And I would imagine they are a large part of most metas. With BUG Delver taking over the world, it seems like having one or two Meekstones in the board couldn't hurt. Although that matchup isn't too bad anyways.


Are you on Packmaster as a SB card now? How is it compared to BB? I'm also wondering if a 1-of Edric is worth it in the MD like the deck that placed in Portland.

Bitterblossom was something Zombie and Julian tried out. I'm not sure what kind of results they got but I think I recall them saying BB was a bit too slow. Packmaster feels like more of a MD card to me. I'm not sure it's worth running as a SB card at all. I was watching that Portland pilot at our local weekly last night (sorry dude, I forgot to ask your name) and he drew a metric butt-ton of cards against a Miracles pilot. It seems worth trying if you expect to see mostly control/fair decks in your area.


So right now I have a Wren's Run Packmaster and Scavenging Ooze main deck. I also run 4 DRS, 1 Llanowar, and 1 Birchlore. What is everyone's opinion on cutting either packmaster or ooze to SB to run one more mana dork (either another llanowar or birch lore)?

Just jam that extra mana dork in. 61 cards isn't a big deal anymore. Also, I'd make it a second Birchlore, but that's just me.


Also, can y'all post what SB you'd use? I live in the United States so the SCG metagame generally has more delver decks than miracles/combo like Europe. Burn also seems to be common here as well so i'm considering Ruric Thar. The 2 Surgical Extractions used to be Thoughtseize until I got dumpstered by Reanimator like 17 times in a row online.

My SB is currently:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order

and my maindeck is:

Creatures: 29
1 Birchlore Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

Lands: 20
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothill
1 Pendelhaven
2 Dryad Arbor

Sorceries: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Opinions? Basically, how would you fine tune my 75 against an American metagame? I feel like my maindeck is a bit clunky, but Wren and Ooze is so good against a lot of fair decks. I just get dumpstered by fast combo decks, but every time I want to use Thoughtseize, i'd rather have Surgical Extraction, and vice versa. I guess I need to get better with Cabal Therapy....

It's almost impossible to recommend an "American" sideboard because the American meta varies from region to region. Your sig thingy doesn't say where you're from but you would know your meta better than I or anybody else in this thread. Your board looks fine for most things. I might drop a Choke for a Null Rod. I never leave home without at least 2 Pithing Needle/1 Null Rod. If you're having trouble vs Delver, try 1-2 Meekstones.

Your main deck looks fine. It's damn near card-for-card the same as mine. You aren't allowed to run Elvish Mystics though. You gotta go old school and rock Llanowar Elves :)

And yeah, you will get beat up on by fast combo. That's just the nature of the beast. You can try to mitigate that a bit by running a MD Ruric Thar. But if you aren't seeing fast combo often enough to warrant that, then don't worry about it. You can't beat everything all of the time. Just try to beat most of the stuff, most of the time.

[lordofthepit]

Your main deck looks fine. It's damn near card-for-card the same as mine. You aren't allowed to run Elvish Mystics though. You gotta go old school and rock Llanowar Elves :)

Beta Llanowar Elves

[theross]

Fyndhorn Elves is what real men play.

[danyul]

A nice report was just posted in the Tourney Report thread. Check it out!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28414-Top-16-at-Eternal-Extravaganza-with-Elves-8-2-14

[Zombie]

I think a "progressive" list would have 1 Llanowar, 3 Heritage/3 Nettle, and 2 Birchlore.

Also, Meekstone is great if Delver decks are a large part of your meta. And I would imagine they are a large part of most metas. With BUG Delver taking over the world, it seems like having one or two Meekstones in the board couldn't hurt. Although that matchup isn't too bad anyways.


Bitterblossom was something Zombie and Julian tried out. I'm not sure what kind of results they got but I think I recall them saying BB was a bit too slow. Packmaster feels like more of a MD card to me. I'm not sure it's worth running as a SB card at all. I was watching that Portland pilot at our local weekly last night (sorry dude, I forgot to ask your name) and he drew a metric butt-ton of cards against a Miracles pilot. It seems worth trying if you expect to see mostly control/fair decks in your area.

And yeah, you will get beat up on by fast combo. That's just the nature of the beast. You can try to mitigate that a bit by running a MD Ruric Thar. But if you aren't seeing fast combo often enough to warrant that, then don't worry about it. You can't beat everything all of the time. Just try to beat most of the stuff, most of the time.

That is what intrigues me about Edric - he's like Packmaster in that he's good against both Delver and Miracles, but is a mana cheaper which counts a lot and draws you into the broken stuff.

Bitterblossom is great. But it's a focused tool that's only truly useful against UW/UB durdly control decks like Esperblade, Miracles and Tezzeret. I still haven't gotten to test it against Delver - all our Delver players seem to have vanished off the face of the Earth. If your meta is dominated by Miracles or Esperblade or the like, sideboard Bitterblossoms are quite amazing.

I agree that Packmaster (and, IMO, Edric) are maindeck cards, although an Edric in the SB seems fine as well. Packmaster is great because of her wide utility in fair matchups - especially hard ones like Miracles and non-BUG Delver. She wins games but she isn't the most impactful card ever. Very typical maindeck material, if you ask me.



So right now I have a Wren's Run Packmaster and Scavenging Ooze main deck. I also run 4 DRS, 1 Llanowar, and 1 Birchlore. What is everyone's opinion on cutting either packmaster or ooze to SB to run one more mana dork (either another llanowar or birchlore)?

Also, can y'all post what SB you'd use? I live in the United States so the SCG metagame generally has more delver decks than miracles/combo like Europe. Burn also seems to be common here as well so i'm considering Ruric Thar. The 2 Surgical Extractions used to be Thoughtseize until I got dumpstered by Reanimator like 17 times in a row online.

My SB is currently:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order

Opinions? Basically, how would you fine tune my 75 against an American metagame? I feel like my maindeck is a bit clunky, but Wren and Ooze is so good against a lot of fair decks. I just get dumpstered by fast combo decks, but every time I want to use Thoughtseize, i'd rather have Surgical Extraction, and vice versa. I guess I need to get better with Cabal Therapy....

That SB is basically asking to get your ass handed to you by Storm - which is probably an OK point of weakness considering it's America where Storm is heavily underplayed. Still, 3 discard spells seems awfully light.

[Lemnear]

Dunno guys. Will give the Edric idea a spin by the weekend but in theory, splashing blue for a creature dying on every removal in the format while needing several creatures attacking doesn't sound too hot, especially fighting Punishing Fire, Deluge or Terminus as our main issues in the format aside faster combo

[Rook1e]

So I finally traded for all the cards necessary for playing elves and was hoping you guys could help me with a few pointers. But first of all, can someone point me to the latest iteration of Julians build?

As for the pointers, I would love some sideboarding advice against the mainstay decks. Finally, is theres some tips and tricks or 'need to know' interactions etc. that all Elves players should know about that I can't find in the primer?

Thanks a lot!

Rook

[Elfkid]

So I finally traded for all the cards necessary for playing elves and was hoping you guys could help me with a few pointers. But first of all, can someone point me to the latest iteration of Julians build?

As for the pointers, I would love some sideboarding advice against the mainstay decks. Finally, is theres some tips and tricks or 'need to know' interactions etc. that all Elves players should know about that I can't find in the primer?

Thanks a lot!

Rook


I think there is all you need ^^ http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!

Have fun elves player!

The tricks...

-Play the Packmaster, in response to the trigger targeting heritage, tap 3 elves (including packmaster and heritage) to add 3 mana and put a wolf
-The typical, symbiote + visionary (vs jitte to evitate put counters there) and the same with dryad and quirion ranger
-Play the glimpse firts if u have a letal hoof or order in hand (they will probably counter it xD)
- Return the Quirion with the simbiote to use again his hability (or to untap 2-3 times the deathrite)
- Birchlore add black mana for DRS activations

I think that "tricks" are very typical... but who cares.. haha


Regards

[danyul]

So I finally traded for all the cards necessary for playing elves and was hoping you guys could help me with a few pointers. But first of all, can someone point me to the latest iteration of Julians build?

As for the pointers, I would love some sideboarding advice against the mainstay decks. Finally, is theres some tips and tricks or 'need to know' interactions etc. that all Elves players should know about that I can't find in the primer?

Thanks a lot!

Rook

Check out Julian's twitter feed. He has MODO screenshots with his test builds in them. His list is always changing. @itsjulian23

Julian's sideboarding guide is in the post directly following the primer. It covers most of the major matchups and should still be very relevant. Just know that sideboarding is one of the most difficult things to learn with this deck.

Compiling a list of all the "tricks" at an Elf pilot's disposal would be a fairly exhausting effort. Mostly you just want to be constantly observant and always look for an advantageous interaction. But I guess if you have never seen an interaction before, that can be difficult. When I get some time I'll start compiling a list of tips and tricks and post it for review. Anybody else is welcome to do that work for me. I'm just thankful the Mirror Entity builds are old tech. Writing a list of tips and tricks for those things would make my head spin.

[Zombie]

Check out Julian's twitter feed. He has MODO screenshots with his test builds in them. His list is always changing. @itsjulian23

Julian's sideboarding guide is in the post directly following the primer. It covers most of the major matchups and should still be very relevant. Just know that sideboarding is one of the most difficult things to learn with this deck.

Compiling a list of all the "tricks" at an Elf pilot's disposal would be a fairly exhausting effort. Mostly you just want to be constantly observant and always look for an advantageous interaction. But I guess if you have never seen an interaction before, that can be difficult. When I get some time I'll start compiling a list of tips and tricks and post it for review. Anybody else is welcome to do that work for me. I'm just thankful the Mirror Entity builds are old tech. Writing a list of tips and tricks for those things would make my head spin.

Haha, Entity builds were a ton of fun though. So many broken things you could do with those. Not to mention the Entity plan was entirely compatible with Grapeshot, gave it that instant kill potential it was usually thought to lack in.


So I finally traded for all the cards necessary for playing elves and was hoping you guys could help me with a few pointers. But first of all, can someone point me to the latest iteration of Julians build?

As for the pointers, I would love some sideboarding advice against the mainstay decks. Finally, is theres some tips and tricks or 'need to know' interactions etc. that all Elves players should know about that I can't find in the primer?

Thanks a lot!

Rook

Apart from the specific guides, the general patterns are like this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=782167&viewfull=1#post782167

Taking stuff out is the hardest thing in this deck. Like in any engine deck, it's good to avoid overboarding in more even or favourable matchups like Delver and midrange. The only matchups where very extensive boarding should happen are Miracles and fast combo generally, because they require a gameplan change instead of just tweaking the proactive plan a bit and adding a couple answers to troublesome things.

[trevaftw]

Lands - 18
4 Gaea's cradle
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept Heath
2 misty rainforest
2 bayou
1 taiga
1 tropical island
1 forest

Spells - 12
4 green sun's zenith
4 natural order
4 glimpse of nature

Creatures - 31
4 elvish visionary
4 wirewood symbiote
4 deathrite shaman
2 dryad arbor
4 quirion ranger
3 heritage Druid
3 nettle sentinel
1 birchlore rangers
1 reclamation sage
1 edric, spymaster of trest
1 wren's run packmaster
1 ruric thar, the unbowed
2 craterhoof behemoth


Sideboard - 15
1 reclamation sage
3 abrupt decay
2 scavenging ooze
1 worldspine wurm
1 progenitus
4 cabal therapy
3 mindbreak trap

Going to try a greedy main deck tonight. Will let you guys know how it goes.

[Zombie]

Lands - 18
4 Gaea's cradle
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept Heath
2 misty rainforest
2 bayou
1 taiga
1 tropical island
1 forest

Spells - 12
4 green sun's zenith
4 natural order
4 glimpse of nature

Creatures - 31
4 elvish visionary
4 wirewood symbiote
4 deathrite shaman
2 dryad arbor
4 quirion ranger
3 heritage Druid
3 nettle sentinel
1 birchlore rangers
1 reclamation sage
1 edric, spymaster of trest
1 wren's run packmaster
1 ruric thar, the unbowed
2 craterhoof behemoth


Sideboard - 15
1 reclamation sage
3 abrupt decay
2 scavenging ooze
1 worldspine wurm
1 progenitus
4 cabal therapy
3 mindbreak trap

Going to try a greedy main deck tonight. Will let you guys know how it goes.

It's not as greedy as possible! You have to replace Nettle #3 with a Joraga Warcaller!

[danyul]

Finally, is theres some tips and tricks or 'need to know' interactions etc. that all Elves players should know about that I can't find in the primer?


When I get some time I'll start compiling a list of tips and tricks and post it for review. Anybody else is welcome to do that work for me. I'm just thankful the Mirror Entity builds are old tech. Writing a list of tips and tricks for those things would make my head spin.

Basic stuff I jotted down during a meeting that I could have been napping in instead!

These are in no particular order.

DRS - Deathrite Shaman
QR - Quirion Ranger
WS - Wirewood Symbiote
EV - Elvish Visionary
DA - Dryad Arbor

QR + DA, WS + any elf = ground Fog. Just block, before moving to damage, bounce your blocker. This keeps Jitte from gaining counters, Batterskull from giving them life, and your face from getting Goyfed. For added value, use WS to bounce Elvish Visionary to get extra draws. For super added value, use your untaps from QR/WS to target a Phantasmal Image and make your Merfolk opponent cry. We call WS + EV the Best Friends Forever Team.

Also, remember you can use QR/WS on your opponent's turn as well as your turn.

WS + DA/mana dork + Glimpse = a draw engine for when you are OOM (out of mana). Just bounce a guy with WS, untap DA/mana dork, replay guy, draw cards! Rinse and repeat for as many WS as you have on board.

WS + QR = 2x QR activations. If you bounce and replay the QR, the replayed one counts as an entirely new copy. So you can use its ability again.

QR + land drops = you can function fairly well off of very few lands as long as you have a QR in play since you can use a land, bounce it, replay it, and get a second use out of it.

QR + DRS + land = you can get 2 DRS activations during your turn this way.

QR + DA/manadork + land = this jumps you from 2 mana to 4 mana very easily. It's not horrible to play a QR, fetchland, pass, EOT fetch DA in order to make your next turn super sexy. I do this quite often.

WS + Nettle + Heritage + Elf = 5 mana. Tap 3 Elves, bounce Elf with WS, untapping Heritage, replay, untapping Nettle. Boom. You have 3 untapped Elves again for mana fun times. Was that too obvious?

I think most of these are already in the primer.

That's all I got right now. It was a short meeting. Does that help?


Haha, Entity builds were a ton of fun though. So many broken things you could do with those. Not to mention the Entity plan was entirely compatible with Grapeshot, gave it that instant kill potential it was usually thought to lack in.

Yeah, those builds were a lot of fun. I kinda miss them sometimes. Only sometimes.


*GREED LIST*

Be sure to buy a couple lottery tickets too. When greed pays off, it pays off hard.

[ESG]

I was watching that Portland pilot at our local weekly last night (sorry dude, I forgot to ask your name) and he drew a metric butt-ton of cards against a Miracles pilot. It seems worth trying if you expect to see mostly control/fair decks in your area.

You mean this guy? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69454

I think Chris is from the Tacoma area.

[danyul]

Yeah that's the guy! I spoke to him briefly and he said his home shop is Exalted Games. I gave him one of my spare Reclamation Sages so he could join the rest of us in Post M15 elves land.

Speaking of which - game day Reclamation Sage or set foil Reclamation Sage? Or is even asking that question a mild form of blasphemy?

[cuthbertthecat]

Yeah that's the guy! I spoke to him briefly and he said his home shop is Exalted Games. I gave him one of my spare Reclamation Sages so he could join the rest of us in Post M15 elves land.

Speaking of which - game day Reclamation Sage or set foil Reclamation Sage? Or is even asking that question a mild form of blasphemy?

Set foil, and yes.

[Bosh N Roll]

A nice report was just posted in the Tourney Report thread. Check it out!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28414-Top-16-at-Eternal-Extravaganza-with-Elves-8-2-14

Thanks for the bump danyul.

I haven't been active in any online communities for a few years now, but I have to post in this thread since my current list came from ideas shared here.

Specifically I want to talk about Wren's Run Packmaster. That animal is the truth. In my report linked above I mention him winning the game for me against Merfolk, Deathblade, and Shardless BUG. He may actually be more absurd in practice than he is in theory. If there are any holdouts left (I'm not sure how widely adopted this guy has become), you should reconsider.

Also on the blue splash, Swan Song was better than I expected it to be all day. I held out on the white splash longer than I should have, but Reclamation Sage made it easy to finally let go. I didn't play an Edric, and I'm not sure where the room for him would come from, but I think blue is the right sideboard splash so it's possible an Edric to GSZ for is right.

[Lemnear]

Yeah that's the guy! I spoke to him briefly and he said his home shop is Exalted Games. I gave him one of my spare Reclamation Sages so he could join the rest of us in Post M15 elves land.

Speaking of which - game day Reclamation Sage or set foil Reclamation Sage? Or is even asking that question a mild form of blasphemy?

Gameplay Promo altered with FOIL layers by BigUp ...

[Dice_Box]

Game day by a landslide.

I think I need to come back to Elves. I have been playing with all my nice new duals, but my meta has shifted to (no joke) 25% DnT and only 3 real combo decks. Jund is dead, so it is TA and Goblins I have to deal with. I want to tear this up. Will grab a few new Sages on the weekend and let you know how I go making DnT players cry. Good god I hate that deck so much. Kills me when I do not get Empty fast enough.

[Lemnear]

Game day by a landslide.

I think I need to come back to Elves. I have been playing with all my nice new duals, but my meta has shifted to (no joke) 25% DnT and only 3 real combo decks. Jund is dead, so it is TA and Goblins I have to deal with. I want to tear this up. Will grab a few new Sages on the weekend and let you know how I go making DnT players cry. Good god I hate that deck so much. Kills me when I do not get Empty fast enough.

Isn't that the reason you have both decks? To switch and kick asses from another angle? ;D

PS: I love to play against D&T with storm. Still X-0 in matches.

[Julian23]

game day Reclamation Sage or set foil Reclamation Sage?

You people drunk? "Promo" is the definition of unpimp. It's also been proven that you will draw the regular set foil more often in critical situations. /r/theydidthemath

[Dice_Box]

But that set card is so dam ugly. The Promo is like a wonderfully attractive British woman, ok, she doesn't tan as well as an exotic Spanish girl, but what does that matter if she is twice as cute?

[bigup]

Gameplay Promo altered with FOIL layers by BigUp ...

feel free to send one to me :)
i would like to put the foil frame of a regular one on the promo just using the promos picture

[Lemnear]

feel free to send one to me :)
i would like to put the foil frame of a regular one on the promo just using the promos picture

Then I get both (promo and Regular foil) and throw it into your letterbox in berlin. I'll PM you via FB, dood

[AznSeal]

I finished foiling this deck out in English. Now I'm trying to build elves in Foil S-Chinese. Now is anyone else bothered that the old name for elves was "地精" and cards like Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, etc only come as that type but the new name for elves is "妖精" and Deathrite Shaman only comes as "妖精". This bothers me.

#AsianProblems

[yosoyez]

You people drunk? "Promo" is the definition of unpimp. It's also been proven that you will draw the regular set foil more often in critical situations. /r/theydidthemath

Wasn't that one of Newton's laws?

[Julian23]

You have just broken the first rule of therodynamics.

[yosoyez]

More like THEROSdynamics

[danyul]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

[lordofthepit]

More like THEROSdynamics

Ain't nothing dynamic about Theros. The whole block is a goddamn abomination, and Wizards is straight up disrespecting us the whole year.

[resum]

Ain't nothing dynamic about Theros. The whole block is a goddamn abomination, and Wizards is straight up disrespecting us the whole year.

Innistrad and Theros was two blocks in three years without Elves in them. Stop green discrimination WOTC!

[Chatto]

Lol, as a Goblin-enthusiast I think you guys got of light ^^ We're still waiting for that perfect two-drop/ Shatter/ Pump/ protection from everything/ Lord Goblin , ghehehe

I would rather say: WOTC stop discriminate Tribal decks ^^

[Lemnear]

Innistrad and Theros was two blocks in three years without Elves in them. Stop green discrimination WOTC!

Gabe, Dan and Julian sure remember that I predicted the problem during our Skype-Conference, that outside of core-sets we won't see Elves printed due to WotC moving away from classic tribes in their expansions after Lorwyn was basically an Elves, Goblins & Fairies block.

[Dice_Box]

We play a slow game here, cards rarely do anything bug to the deck since we are an eternal format. But if Wizards decide that they are going to print something as useful as Sage every year or so, I am not going to bitch.

[Lemnear]

We play a slow game here, cards rarely do anything bug to the deck since we are an eternal format. But if Wizards decide that they are going to print something as useful as Sage every year or so, I am not going to bitch.

Tbh the core with DRS, GSZ, Glimpse, NO, Cradle, Visionary, Symbiote and Quirion is already excellent and they did a huge job in freeing the concept from the summoning sickness dilemma which made me running concordant crossroads in the past, but unless they decide to give Symbiote an Elves subtype, I have a tough time to see any mayor changes coming which aren't the direct result of mass removal or an increase of combo-archetypes in total which could lead to MB discard or a midrange-focus.

I don't know if a deck can stay competitive within the era of powercreep if we continue to get new, playable cards in the current, low frequency without suffering the same fate as goblins.

[Dice_Box]

As a goblins player, I don't feel like we have that issue in Elves. See you can just ignore a goblins player and do your own thing. Aside for hitting your mana, there was no interaction and the deck was not the fastest clock. With Elves you have the chance too combo turn two and that has to be respected. You have interaction on the sense that there are no small amount of "Answer or die" spells in the deck too.

While I see what you mean, I think right now we are not under the same risk. If anything, I think we are ok since DnT seams to be getting all the toys and we play hell on their plans.

[Julian23]

unless they decide to give Symbiote an Elves subtype

aka infinite combo?

[Lemnear]

aka infinite combo?

Jip. Removal proof Symbiote + one green mana to draw a card under Glimpse

[Julian23]

Jip. Removal proof Symbiote + one green mana to draw a card under Glimpse

Not to forget: infinite mana.

[Lemnear]

Not to forget: infinite mana.

Possibly ;)

[trevaftw]

Just going to reaffirm that the games where I land Wren's Run Packmaster he has been a house.

[ThePrevailer]

I'm going to play the Game Day version because I currently have no foils in my elves deck. When I get around to acquiring one. Also thanks, Danyul for allowing me to move into the modern era of Elves! I played the Sage maindeck yesterday, and absolutely hated it the one time i drew it (t2 against RUG). For me I'll leave it in the board and keep my Edric and Scooze maindeck.

Also, for those of you who haven't tried it yet, Sylvan Library is Necropotence in this deck. It's sweet in grindy matchups, and probably good in the mirror, which I am now 0-8 against in games.

[ESG]

Also, for those of you who haven't tried it yet, Sylvan Library is Necropotence in this deck. It's sweet in grindy matchups, and probably good in the mirror, which I am now 0-8 against in games.

Sylvan Library is generally going to be too slow in the mirror. Typically, whomever is on the play wins Game 1 (barring the other player having a faster hand). Postboard games add to that the element of Turn 1 discard. It's a rather degenerate mirror, in my opinion. If I was going to build to gain an edge in the mirror, I would be playing Priest of Titania, which basically makes all your Green Sun's Zeniths into bazookas.

[Lemnear]

Also, for those of you who haven't tried it yet, Sylvan Library is Necropotence in this deck. It's sweet in grindy matchups, and probably good in the mirror, which I am now 0-8 against in games.

This post pretty much explains WHY you are 0-8 in games in the mirror as it is NOT about slow grinding. The Necro comparison is hilarious

[ThePrevailer]

For the record, I have never brought library in for the mirror, I just think it would fine there. It's been my experience that mirror comes down to ripping each others hands apart, then staring at each other playing draw go until someone draws a sorcery. Why wouldn't you bring in a Library? It's a better draw than any elf is it not?

[Lemnear]

For the record, I have never brought library in for the mirror, I just think it would fine there. It's been my experience that mirror comes down to ripping each others hands apart, then staring at each other playing draw go until someone draws a sorcery. Why wouldn't you bring in a Library? It's a better draw than any elf is it not?

No, it's not. You wanna pay 4 life again and again for your "Necropotence" while your opponent draws a WRP, DRS, Visionary, Quirion, Symbiote and Co. to suddenly squeeze out 1-2 extra DRS activations between his turns, draws more cards with the Superfriends-combo, having more creatures to attack you or creates a wall of Wolfs?

[D@N]

After trying out wrp for the last 3-4 months in the main I'm not sure it's where we want to be anymore. Sure against some decks that you can untap with it then it's awesome but I more then often found myself with just a 5/5 that could make bodies. Plus just having a dude to champ against removal heavy jund or the like is impossible. I'd rather them remove a dork then have to invest so much and have to wait a turn. Also what's the standard list like these days still md ruric thar, and scooze?

Wanting a little more on this edric plan as getting repeatable card draw from him in the miracles m/u seems decent.

[Lemnear]

After trying out wrp for the last 3-4 months in the main I'm not sure it's where we want to be anymore. Sure against some decks that you can untap with it then it's awesome but I more then often found myself with just a 5/5 that could make bodies. Plus just having a dude to champ against removal heavy jund or the like is impossible. I'd rather them remove a dork then have to invest so much and have to wait a turn. Also what's the standard list like these days still md ruric thar, and scooze?

Wanting a little more on this edric plan as getting repeatable card draw from him in the miracles m/u seems decent.

Funny, as I picked WRP to battle those removal heavy decks like Miracles or Punishing Jund as you can easily outplay Punishing Fire for example due to it's excessive cost of 3 compared to your 1cc elves. I don't understand how you can say that the shortage of bodies against removal heavy decks is a reason to not run WRP but the same requirement of meat doesn't bother you in regards to Edric which is an easy victim to any existing removal, which Miracles has plenty of. The need to Splash a color just to see him plowed or bottomed by Terminus isn't too hot and he's plain bad against Aggro as well.

[ThePrevailer]

No, it's not. You wanna pay 4 life again and again for your "Necropotence" while your opponent draws a WRP, DRS, Visionary, Quirion, Symbiote and Co. to suddenly squeeze out 1-2 extra DRS activations between his turns, draws more cards with the Superfriends-combo, having more creatures to attack you or creates a wall of Wolfs?

Um. Packmaster gets boarded out in the mirror, and none of the other elves you listed really matter. Excpet Visionary, but that's only because he draws you to cards that do matter. Walls of wolves mean nothing to Craterhoof Behemoth, and obviously the Visionary engine is better than Library, that's not the point. The point is that Library is better than for example Heritage Druid when ALL that you care about is who can get a Behemoth into play first.

Re: Edric

I board him out against Jund, Maverick, Goblins, Patriot, and any matchup when I don't think I'll get the chance to connect with a moderate (3ish) attacking force. Against Miracles I actually like him (which is the whole reason I play him) because you get to draw a few cards, then Terminus puts him back in your library where you can GSZ him out again and draw a few more. Eventually he'll get plowed, but so will every creature and Edric does his part to help recover from Terminus quite nicely.

[Zombie]

a 5/5 that could make bodies.

Is what wins games. The deathtouchers and 5/5 blockers stall nearly any board, the wolves punch through nearly any board at a profit. The 5/5 contributes a significant clock against empty boards. The main threat itself - Packmaster - is really hard to kill with most spot removal especially if you keep her back. Gets you value after sweepers and you don't need not-sick dudes while powering one out T2/T3 like you'd do with Hoof. It makes GSZ a lot more threatening. It's kinda what Ruric does to combo, or Regal does to fair decks, except it needs less stuff on board to be scary than Regal.

[Dice_Box]

Pack Master has to be the cutest art for a "Him" I have seen in a long while.

[uncletiggy]

Im so glad to see packmaster as a thing now I suggested him and natural order as a logical progression for the deck on another site before craterhoof was printed and was laughed at. Its poetic justice to them being used. I havent taken elves to an open in a long time(since the legend rule change), I was wondering why glimpse #4 is better then natural order #4 in the main. Traditionally ive sided out some number of glimpses in most matchups is it reasonable to bring the fourth No md and free up a slot in the board for something like flusterstorm or swan song. I know it sounds sacrilegious but glimpse is not really what this deck primarily wants to be doing anymore its more counterbait/CA then a win condition anymore.

[ESG]

I havent taken elves to an open in a long time(since the legend rule change), I was wondering why glimpse #4 is better then natural order #4 in the main. Traditionally ive sided out some number of glimpses in most matchups is it reasonable to bring the fourth No md and free up a slot in the board for something like flusterstorm or swan song. I know it sounds sacrilegious but glimpse is not really what this deck primarily wants to be doing anymore its more counterbait/CA then a win condition anymore.

I would say it's because Glimpse is faster, double Glimpse generally allows you to draw your deck, and it requires fewer resources than Natural Order (you already need several dudes on the board in order for Natural Order to get a lethal Hoof). The best sideboarding comes down to anticipating your opponent's substitutions and either boarding to counteract those (anti-hate) or going in a different direction. I agree with you on Glimpse being lackluster in more matchups now due to Counterbalance, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Ethersworn Canonist. I've been playtesting a number of unorthodox sideboard plans but have been lukewarm on this deck for at least a month due to Miracles and combo decks seeing more play in my area.

[danyul]

@ ungletiggy

I agree.

The MD configuration is tuned to be able to best abuse the Glimpse while balancing the capacity to grind out a card advantage win or just Hoof them on the spot when NO shows up. It's true that NO will usually win once resolved, but the threat of Glimpse is still very real. And it is our only avenue for the delicious-yet-elusive Turn 2 kill. I would say that Game 1, we always want the option of going for Glimpse. But post board, they are often one of the easier things to cut.

Now that I think about it, the two cards (Glimpse/NO) exist in opposition to one another. Glimpse wants creatures in hand. NO wants creatures on the board. It's kinda beautiful when you get those draws that allow you to Glimpse and fill up the board only to follow up, that turn or the next, with the NO for lethal. If that is the ideal way to sequence those spells, then yeah, it makes sense to have a 4/3 split on them.

Also, it's usually fine to draw a Glimpse in multiples. But seeing more than one NO in the first few turns is usually a feel-bad. Unless you are against a combo deck or something, which is where the 4th SB NO comes in.

Having the Glimpses countered, as they often are, doesn't necessarily mean we should start cutting them. They are countered out of respect for their power. And there is always a nice little mind game you can play when you cast them. Also, they add to our 13 MD bombs (NO, Glimpse, GSZ, Hoof) that are often must-counters. As far as MD configurations go, I wouldn't want to lose that bomb dropping potential. And although the deck may primarily be a NO deck right now, most of our opponents still respect and fear the Glimpse. I often like seeing them countered. There is value in that flexibility.

TLDR - I can see an argument for the MD supporting 4 Glimpse/4 NO. But I don't think cutting Glimpses for the 4th NO is where we want to be.

[uncletiggy]

When I played I was on 4/4 and always perfered to see it countered as well. I dont think I'd play less then four of either md just curious if it had reached a point where trimming a glimpse was viable as it is arguably the weakest card left in the deck(requires mana on board cards in hand and preferably an engine in place), which is saying something for how far the deck has come in a year or two.

[D@N]

Funny, as I picked WRP to battle those removal heavy decks like Miracles or Punishing Jund as you can easily outplay Punishing Fire for example due to it's excessive cost of 3 compared to your 1cc elves. I don't understand how you can say that the shortage of bodies against removal heavy decks is a reason to not run WRP but the same requirement of meat doesn't bother you in regards to Edric which is an easy victim to any existing removal, which Miracles has plenty of. The need to Splash a color just to see him plowed or bottomed by Terminus isn't too hot and he's plain bad against Aggro as well.

The plan with edric isn't really against any removal heavy deck or something that can keep up with you it's more for miracles and recovering from wraths. You're right that being able to outplay a punishing fire and slamming wrp is good but I've always had the problem of "bolt ur dude, decay or hymn you, Lilliana sac" or land dark conf. T2 and never be able to keep up with the card advantage. Just having 3 to make a dude is sometimes a problem between removal and wastelands.

I don't know maybe I'm just that unlucky as I jumped away from this deck for 2 weeks to play reanimator and somehow managed to play 2 different people playing md extirpate in a 30+ person events. Like wtf???

[Careve]

I only need 3 Cradles to having a fully fleshed Elves deck. My question would be what do you guys think how likely or unlikely it is for Elves to become tier1.5 or even tier2 deck in a year or two? Another tribal deck Goblins was also a very competitive deck a while ago, but they are basically disappeared now. Can it realistically happen to Elves as well or are there some reasons that make it very unlikely for Elves?

I would hate to spend lots of money on Cradles and then see their prices crash due to Elves not being played anymore (and there would be no other deck playing Cradles).

[Dice_Box]

Kobold Storm plays then too.

The issue with Goblins is that aggressive decks just died with new cards printed. Goblins is not alone, Aggro Loam, Zoo, even to a limited point Fish have all just kind of died. Elves though has gained traction it is because the deck attacks on at lest three axis. It can be a Storm deck, a straight combo deck or beat down when necessary. These multiple avenues of attack make Elves far more resilient to change than Goblins where. I say that as a Goblin player too BTW.

But honestly, I don't think anyone can promise you that Elves won't hit on hard times. If you have of told someone in 09 that Maverick would be dead by 2013 I am not sure how they would have redacted, but I can say I did not see it coming. That said, Elves is resistant to change because the deck is so malubule. This deck and Painter are the two non blue decks I would bet on if I was not going to play blue and wanted a deck to last for a few years.

[Careve]

I definitely understand that no one can accurately predict what will happen in the next 2 years, but just want to hear people's thoughts on how resilient/flexible Elves deck can be if needed. I appreciate your mentioned points a lot!

[Zombie]

Kobold Storm plays then too.

The issue with Goblins is that aggressive decks just died with new cards printed. Goblins is not alone, Aggro Loam, Zoo, even to a limited point Fish have all just kind of died. Elves though has gained traction it is because the deck attacks on at lest three axis. It can be a Storm deck, a straight combo deck or beat down when necessary. These multiple avenues of attack make Elves far more resilient to change than Goblins where. I say that as a Goblin player too BTW.

But honestly, I don't think anyone can promise you that Elves won't hit on hard times. If you have of told someone in 09 that Maverick would be dead by 2013 I am not sure how they would have redacted, but I can say I did not see it coming. That said, Elves is resistant to change because the deck is so malubule. This deck and Painter are the two non blue decks I would bet on if I was not going to play blue and wanted a deck to last for a few years.

I'd add: It can be Storm.dec, Tinker.dec, Zoo.dec (small dudes, DRS as burn) and Shardless.dec. The slow, grindy CA driven gameplan is probably the strongest one the deck has IMO, and Elves is one of like three decks in the format capable of doing it.

[Julian23]

If you have of told someone in 09 that Maverick would be dead by 2013 I am not sure how they would have redacted.

In 2009 they would have asked you "Who's Maverick, and why is he dead?" :tongue:

[apple713]

I only need 3 Cradles to having a fully fleshed Elves deck. My question would be what do you guys think how likely or unlikely it is for Elves to become tier1.5 or even tier2 deck in a year or two? Another tribal deck Goblins was also a very competitive deck a while ago, but they are basically disappeared now. Can it realistically happen to Elves as well or are there some reasons that make it very unlikely for Elves?

I would hate to spend lots of money on Cradles and then see their prices crash due to Elves not being played anymore (and there would be no other deck playing Cradles).

I don't play elves personally, yet. I have the deck just never threw it together. Even if elves die. cradles are on the reserve list and are likely to rise again...and again. I only have 5 cradles (2 of which are foil) and I'd like more. They haven't done much lately but they always could. outside of cradles the deck is fairly cheap.

[Lemnear]

Tbh, the reasons are even deeper burried within the cmc of those decks. Goblins are unable to cheat on mana-development unless they have Lackey unlike Elves which have GSZ->Arbor, DRS, Cradle or NO to do so and stay competitive with Delver/Terminus/S&T as the formats currents cornerstone-threats due to their power/mana-ratio. The slowness of Goblins and Vial was compensated with Wasteland and Rishadan Ports to slow your opponent down as well until you get the Ringleader engine going and overwhelm your opponent with it's cardadvantage. Plays like Turn 1 Delver or turn 2 S&T into Griselbrand turn the whole mana-denial plan of Goblins ad absurdum, as those cards alone (compare this to D&T) are no longer enough to gain a decent control over the pace of a game.

In short: Goblins are too slow without Lackey to get their 3cc and 4cc engine cards going before they are mauled by combo or quicker aggro (Delver). The Goblin Tribe would either need cheaper engine cards or more ways to cheat on their mana-development. If you ask me, the tools are there in Warren Instigator and a black Splash to bridge the gap Delver and combo decks opend in the last couple of year, but I'm not interrested in tuning Aggro decks for the metagame, which obviously no one cares enough about to test serious changes, other than taking 2006's Goblins as a scale for ranting in the B&R Thread of how unhealthy the metagame is

[Dice_Box]

Now you make me miss the old days... I am going to go over to the corner and cry over my shattered pile of goblins... Oh never mind, I found my Elves on the way.

Also, if you want to know how far Goblins have fallen, Lackey is a great sideboard card....

[Zombie]

Now you make me miss the old days... I am going to go over to the corner and cry over my shattered pile of goblins... Oh never mind, I found my Elves on the way.

That's the feeling I get whenever I remember TS-Lor Standard and look at current Standard, TNN and Griseltard. The downhill trend is insane. Thank goodness for Elves and thank goodness for
http://netrunnerdb.com/web/bundles/netrunnerdbcards/images/cards/en/06005.png

[Julian23]

GTFO! Haas-Bioroid Masterrace!

http://i.imgur.com/LEjN0NOl.jpg

[Lemnear]

Congrats guys, you "out-nerded" me. I have no more clue,what you are talking about here ?:)

[Zombie]

Congrats guys, you "out-nerded" me. I have no more clue,what you are talking about here ?:)

Another build-your-own-deck card game created by Richard Garfield. Was a CCG, died, got picked up by FFG and reincarnated as an LCG called Android: Netrunner. It's really fun, way cheaper than Magic and FFG is dedicated to keeping the cards in print. The cards they make feel a lot like pre-Alara MTG to me somehow. They're not afraid of complex boardstates or drawbacks, and a lot of cards just improve on basic functions players can already do. It's a whole game about nuance, basically. Not that you can't just blow people out either, but the fundamental character is very different to modern Magic.

[LeoCop 90]

n short: Goblins are too slow without Lackey to get their 3cc and 4cc engine cards going before they are mauled by combo or quicker aggro (Delver). The Goblin Tribe would either need cheaper engine cards or more ways to cheat on their mana-development. If you ask me, the tools are there in Warren Instigator and a black Splash to bridge the gap Delver and combo decks opend in the last couple of year

If you have the time to read the goblin thread, black splash with warren instigator and even chrome moxes is what die hard goblin players are doing since some months. All of them (including me) recognize that the format sped up quite a bit and rishadan port is less effective. But if you ask me, all goblins need to become as competitive as ever is a very good one drop or 2 drop. I mean as good as deathrite shaman is for elves or true name nemesis is for merfolks . After all, death and taxes strategy is not very different from goblins one, but they have thalia which is great while we have goblin piledriver that is the worst card in the deck. And Tarkir block may be the good occasion for goblins, since there likely won't be elves or merfolks but goblins are confirmed to be printed there.

[danyul]

Jeez. Julian is a champ at so many things! Leave a few trophies for the rest of us!


I only need 3 Cradles to having a fully fleshed Elves deck. My question would be what do you guys think how likely or unlikely it is for Elves to become tier1.5 or even tier2 deck in a year or two? Another tribal deck Goblins was also a very competitive deck a while ago, but they are basically disappeared now. Can it realistically happen to Elves as well or are there some reasons that make it very unlikely for Elves?

I would hate to spend lots of money on Cradles and then see their prices crash due to Elves not being played anymore (and there would be no other deck playing Cradles).

(incoming wall of text)

As far as Elves being viable into the future, it was solidly a Tier 2 deck for many, many years. Only in the last couple years has it become a major player in the metagame. It's better now that it has ever been. And after the printing of Reclamation Sage, things only seem to be getting better.

However, because of all the latent synergies in the deck, its core is very solid and it's not often that newly printed cards can break through to become new additions.

In this way, the deck is very similar to Goblins. Actually, all tribal decks tend to have this problem. Merfolk is still adapting to True Name Nemesis. I don't know if they have settled upon a core list yet but it seems like the optimal Merfolk list has yet to be discovered. And the Goblins dudes are always playing around with utility slots but their core is largely the same as it was back when Landstill was a deck to beat. And that isn't a bad thing necessarily. It's kind of cool and shows just how strong the core strategy is. It's also nice that tribal pilots don't have to buy as many new cards over time. You just build the core and add a few things once in awhile. It's nice for the lazy Legacy player.

If you want to play a deck that will never be bad, you honestly should play RUG Delver. The Canadian Thresh shell has been good for almost the entire lifespan of the Legacy format. It's not that hot right now, but it will always be a viable deck choice in any metagame. But let's be honest. That deck is boring. And nobody sits down across from a RUG Delver player and thinks "Oh boy, this should be a fun and interesting match!" I can only speak for myself, but I'm usually thinking "If this guy gets even a hint of smugness when he Stifle/Wastelands me out of the game, I'm gonna rage."

Now if you want a deck that is fun to play and always full of interesting decisions, then Elves is the deck for you. If you want a deck that can hit from several angles and switch gears on the fly, then Elves is for you. I've been playing the deck for years and was having fun even when the deck was kinda bad. And it's perhaps even more fun today now that it's a real contender. But again, I can only speak for myself.

You should proxy it up and see how you like it. Or borrow some Cradles and take it for a test run at your local shop. You can always sub X Crop Rotations for X Cradles if you can't find the real deal. That isn't optimal but it will give you a feeling for how the deck plays. If you like it, play it!

As far as Cradles dropping in value, they are of course on the reserved list. And Price Memory is very strong when it comes to Legacy cards. Also, Cradles are an EDH staple. I don't see their price dropping in the event that Elves starts to suck. Lands (the deck) isn't really that great right now but Tabernacle is still expensive as shit, and recently jumped up a bunch. Prices tend to only go up in this format. And actually, that's true for Magic in general right now.

Buy those Cradles. We'll see you in The Great Forest.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517zwl5V2NL.jpg

[Zombie]

nobody sits down across from a RUG Delver player and thinks "Oh boy, this should be a fun and interesting match!"

I do.

[danyul]

You brave, brave soul. I envy your intestinal fortitude.

[Lemnear]

If you have the time to read the goblin thread, black splash with warren instigator and even chrome moxes is what die hard goblin players are doing since some months. All of them (including me) recognize that the format sped up quite a bit and rishadan port is less effective. But if you ask me, all goblins need to become as competitive as ever is a very good one drop or 2 drop. I mean as good as deathrite shaman is for elves or true name nemesis is for merfolks . After all, death and taxes strategy is not very different from goblins one, but they have thalia which is great while we have goblin piledriver that is the worst card in the deck. And Tarkir block may be the good occasion for goblins, since there likely won't be elves or merfolks but goblins are confirmed to be printed there.

Bet that I did browse through the last 6 pages of the Goblin Thread before I made that post. :)

There are still a lot of Wasteland/Port-Lists there and i'm confused why Warren Instigator is still not an Auto 4-off in every list given the time the card is legal now, but some people rather run Moxen to adress the problem of High cmc I mentioned, which I'm sure about, being THE issue for Goblins. For my taste there is still too much space wasted for cute stuff or for Sligh-like cards ... Slots which would be better spend for disruption and/or Warchiefs (which are often dismissed ... No idea why). I would even go that far and question Aether Vial atm for various reasons, but this is not the place. :)

[Zombie]

GTFO! Haas-Bioroid Masterrace!

[Fancy trophy because Julian wins everything for some reason]


Heresy! NBN for life. I mean, drawing cards is fun, right? It's one reason we play Elves, right? Look at these:
http://i.imgur.com/sbNlm9a.png

[danyul]

I love that this just became a Netrunner thread.

SUPERSERIOUSELFPILOTQUESTION:

What kind of basic Forests are you guys running? Right now I'm using the Arena foils with Beta art. I'm looking to upgrade but I'm not sure which direction I should go.

[Dice_Box]

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/ArborForest.jpg

[Zombie]

You evil bastard :D

I'm running Future Sight Arbors and Zendikar Full Art basics.

[Lemnear]

Coldsnap Snow-Covered Forest + FtV Fyndhorn Elves

[danyul]

@Dice - lol I can't tell of you're trolling or not. Actually, true or false, I guess you're still trolling. GG well played.

@Zombie - solid. Are you rocking the floaty colorful ones? Those are my personal favorite. I kinda wanted to pick up the new judge foils but they are expensive and hard to find right now. Also the art doesn't really speak to me. Hmm.

@Lemnear - I like the Snow theme. I may look into that.

Let's keep it up with the extremely relevant techy posts about basic lands.

[Zombie]

@Zombie - solid. Are you rocking the floaty colorful ones? Those are my personal favorite. I kinda wanted to pick up the new judge foils but they are expensive and hard to find right now. Also the art doesn't really speak to me. Hmm.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/zen/248.jpg

[Elfkid]

I love that this just became a Netrunner thread.

SUPERSERIOUSELFPILOTQUESTION:

What kind of basic Forests are you guys running? Right now I'm using the Arena foils with Beta art. I'm looking to upgrade but I'm not sure which direction I should go.

Im running this:

http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/LEB/en/nonfoil/ForestA.jpg

And to upgrade, easy,

guru > new judge forest

Or you can just buy summer forest... :laugh:

[andrebonotto]

(...)

What kind of basic Forests are you guys running? (...)

I'm running two Foil portuguese units of this one:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/9e/347.jpg

And I have the Future Sight Dryad Arbors.
My deck is almost all Foil, with half the playsets portuguese/half english (whenever avaiable). (I'm lacking Cradle #4, most of the Fetchlands, NO #4, DRS #3-4 and some sideboard cards).

My long-term project is to finish Foil all of the deck and get my basic Forests to be Foils of this one:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/uh/140.jpg


... Boy, I love John Avon's landscape artwork... :tongue:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes it's good even though it is computer generated, but give the man a pen and he can barely write his own freakin' name. Go guru.

[Julian23]

2 Foil Unhinged Signed Basic Forests

2 Foil Future Sight Dryad Arbors - used to run the FtV ones but switched when Levy called me out on it :cool:

[danyul]

@ Zombie - that's the one. Excellent taste sir.

@ Elfkid - I respect the old school flavor. And Gurus are just so expensive. LOL and Summer Forest. I don't even want to think about that.

@ andrebonotto - Now that you put those up, the Unhinged ones are quite nice. I must have forgotten how nice they were. And best of luck finishing your foil deck! These damn cards have gotten quite expensive recently :(

@ Secretly.A.Bee - Man. So much $$$!

@ Julian - I think I might move to your configuration. I had the foil Future Sight Arbors but I hated the way they looked. When the FTV ones came out I instantly sold the Future Sight ones. But I've gotten a lot of shit for using the FTV ones, both IRL and online.

Time to take a trip to the eBay. They really need to print a Forest with some Elves hanging out in the background...

[Dice_Box]

Personally, while it is not as pimp as some of the more modern lands, I like to use the lands from Revised. I like all my fetchable lands White. It pisses off a lot of modern players though for some reason, but I love the old White boarder.

[shopshopshop]

I use these:

http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/images/products/1373394483-28151600.jpg

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@ Danyul: it's not that bad. It could be way worse - you could be playing Esper and have to buy a Guru Island & Swamp. Now, it's just like paying for Cradles 5 & 6.

[starfox444]

On another note, for some reason in my area and online I barely play against deathblade so I am lacking experience in the matchup. I was wondering if someone could give some insight on how we ought to generally navigate the matchup and what common sideboard cards from them are.

[Eidolon]

Thoughts on FTV Dryad Arbor vs Future Sight Dryad Arbor?

I personally like the art from the FTV Arbor better. However, I can understand the hassle an opponent can give because they closely resemble a basic forest. Should we care to use the Future Sight Arbor to make sure the board state "appears" more accurate?

[Alexeezay]

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mdsP9cG2_kZzLlB5EahVbnA.jpg I use 2 of these because I love 7th http://magiccards.info/7e/en/330.html and FTV Dryads. I had german foil future sight before but I love the new artwork and how it confuses the opponent (I don't hide it or anything to get an advantage).

[ESG]

In 2009 they would have asked you "Who's Maverick, and why is he dead?" :tongue:

'Cause he messed with this guy?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-URylmLSv0iM/TnI3-Pja49I/AAAAAAAAAFw/jXSPWhNgIx0/s1600/maverick_iceman.jpg

[AznSeal]

I actually use these

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/ArborForest.jpg

[piie]

What kind of basic Forests are you guys running?

233

I use Nottingham Forest personally.

[Zombie]

Still need a nonfoil Packmaster, a Game Day Recla Sage and an old border Symbiote :(

[trevaftw]

I actually use these

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/ArborForest.jpg
I also use that combination. It has helped me win many games.

[Lemnear]

Still need a nonfoil Packmaster, a Game Day Recla Sage and an old border Symbiote :(

You sure?

https://twitter.com/valelemnear/status/473875736521375744

[igri_is_a_bk]

Damn, those 7th ed look really nice. I would never have guessed good art out of a core set like that. Personally, I've always had bias towards the oldest set available.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=587&type=card

And this is definitely my favorite beta art.

[apple713]

Damn, those 7th ed look really nice. I would never have guessed good art out of a core set like that. Personally, I've always had bias towards the oldest set available.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=587&type=card

And this is definitely my favorite beta art.


+1

This is what I've wanted to post but was to lazy to find the link for that pic

[Zombie]

You sure?

https://twitter.com/valelemnear/status/473875736521375744

I'd still want a non-foil, but you've convinced a German one would be amazing :P

[Julian23]

Played my standard list to a combined 9-1-1 at the last two Munich Legacy tournaments. The classic maindeck is pretty much set in stone for me right now. Some of you might have caught me experimenting with Brainstorm, Jace, Edric and Lightning Bolts on Magic Online. For now though, this is what I feel comfortable registering in a big event.

Matchups:
Win 2-0 vs Goblins
Win 2-0 vs Miracles
Win 2-0 vs Death & Taxes
Win 2-1 vs Elves
ID 1-1-1 vs Burn
Win 2-1 vs Miracles
Win 2-0 vs WB Stoneblade
Loss 0-2 vs Miracles
Win 2-0 vs Death & Taxes
Win 2-1 vs UG Madness :cool: (He had 66 cards in the maindeck)
Win 2-0 vs Jund (Trashtalked him into telling me what he played; he also showed me some sb cards I asked him whether he had them)

http://i.imgur.com/1W1AELj.jpg

Deck felt really strong and required my Miracles opponent to go through three critical Terminus and an Entreat as I had lethal damage on every third turn. Don't ask me about the sideboard though; I'm trying out so many different things right now as things have been a bit shaken up and Miracles apparently keeps slowly climbing to the top of the US meta as well. With all my focus on #GPNJ and #SCGRICH in November, I'm still lost in balancing my sideboard between the three most important enemies: Delver, Miracles and Combo. For now I have only found configurations that will cover two of those three.

[haganbmj]

What kind of basic Forests are you guys running? Right now I'm using the Arena foils with Beta art. I'm looking to upgrade but I'm not sure which direction I should go.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/apac/11.jpg

I've been using APAC basics in all my decks as of late. I like the textures on this art, really looks nice.

@Julian - I've been liking the second Birchlore lately. It can make game one a bit more explosive when it needs to. Looks like a solid list.

[danyul]

You guys have some really cool Forest choices. I forgot about all those APAC lands.


@ Danyul: it's not that bad. It could be way worse - you could be playing Esper and have to buy a Guru Island & Swamp. Now, it's just like paying for Cradles 5 & 6.

Yeah, I have a buddy who is trying to pimp out Deathblade. He's only like halfway done and it's downright frightening to think about how much more $$$ it will take to finish.


On another note, for some reason in my area and online I barely play against deathblade so I am lacking experience in the matchup. I was wondering if someone could give some insight on how we ought to generally navigate the matchup and what common sideboard cards from them are.

Deathblade has fallen out of favor recently and I'm not sure that there has ever been a solid consensus on what a list should look like, so take some of this advice with a grain of salt. It seems like every Deathblade pilot has their own twist on the deck. But expect Supreme Verdict/Zealous Persecution out of the board. And maybe even 1 Verdict main, although I think that's more commonly an EsperBlade thing. I am told that they typically board out 1-2 Deathrite Shamans, since they can't win the DRS war against us as we have untap effects and they don't. Also watch for Perish (if they are super hateful). And Meddling Mage is a common SB pick. Basically their biggest post-board threats against you are board wipes. Oh, and Flusterstorm. Jesus, they have access to a lot of SB hate.

As far as we are concerned, Deathblade is very similar to EsperBlade. Their primary threat is Stoneforge -> Jitte, of course. And that is mitigated easily enough. Things get tricky when they are able to suit up a TNN, since our bounce-block tricks no longer work. But that takes some time to set up and usually you can find a GSZ -> Rec.Sage to take care of the equipment. Both Blade decks are basically goodstuff.dec so of course their raw card quality will usually be better than ours (Have you ever watched a Blade player resolve a Brainstorm? They draw amazing cards every time). Setting up the Best Friend Team or resolving a Glimpse is typically a good idea. If we can't beat them on raw card quality, then we should try to beat them on card quantity. And always be wary of the board wipe.

Their cards all do very specific things. Discard. Countermagic. Removal. But they don't necessarily synergize with each other at all. So sometimes they will just draw the wrong card for the job. Also, properly utilizing each of their tools requires them to know which of our several game plans we are on at the moment. And there just isn't always a way for them to know that (except for discard, I guess).

I like the Blade match ups. They have all the tools to disable us and seize the win. But they sometimes just can't draw the right answer to our threat. The times I beat them, they either 1) don't have it 2) get drowned in card advantage or 3) I trick them into thinking I value a card more than I really do, and they spend resources dealing with it instead of the actual threat. There is a lot going on in that matchup. Play with respect, but not FEAR.

I hope that helped and wasn't just gibberish.


Thoughts on FTV Dryad Arbor vs Future Sight Dryad Arbor?

I personally like the art from the FTV Arbor better. However, I can understand the hassle an opponent can give because they closely resemble a basic forest. Should we care to use the Future Sight Arbor to make sure the board state "appears" more accurate?

I think that's a slightly personal choice. I know that I got a bunch of flak for telling people to use the FTV Arbors. And I know that generally people dislike the FTV art because it looks so much like that Avacyn Restored Forest. People seem to have more of a moral problem with it than anything else. However, I'm the kind of guy who perhaps cares too much about what other people think. If you are a road warrior, chain-smoking, leather jacket-wearing badass who doesn't give a fuck, then yeah you should go on rocking those FTV Arbors. There is an argument to be made that the FTV art, like wave-dashing in Super Smash Bros, is just part of the game that is fair to exploit. I'm kind of in that camp. But I also understand that sometimes people just plain feel bad when they get "tricked" (or just don't see on-board interactions because they were distracted) and it's easy to blame the FTV art. I'm not trying to necessarily make my opponent feel bad. I mean I want them to lose, sure, but losing and feeling bad don't have to be paired together all the time. I also don't want to be thought of as a "scummy" player to tries to "get" people with deceptive art on cards.

I honestly like the FTV art more than the set art. And I play those FTV Arbors with Forests that look nothing like them. Also, I never hide my Arbors behind anything and I always make it clear that hey, this isn't one of my Forests. But still people give me shit about using them.

If you like the FTV art, then feel free to rock those. I fully understand your point of view. But if you want zero percent chance that your opponent can have a reason to think of you as "scummy", even though you aren't scummy in the least, then using the Future Sight Arbors removes all doubt.

I'll be moving to the Future Sight Arbors simply because I do not want anybody to ever question my integrity again. And using the set Arbors allows me to block-bounce my way to victory with a clear conscience.

Your mileage may vary.

Also, Julian's list is solid. I'll be taking that exact list to a big baller duel for duals wizard tournament tomorrow. I was originally at 61 with +1 Llanowar Elves. But the Lieutenant of Llanowar knows best.

[Zombie]

Deck felt really strong and required my Miracles opponent to go through three critical Terminus and an Entreat as I had lethal damage on every third turn. Don't ask me about the sideboard though; I'm trying out so many different things right now as things have been a bit shaken up and Miracles apparently keeps slowly climbing to the top of the US meta as well. With all my focus on #GPNJ and #SCGRICH in November, I'm still lost in balancing my sideboard between the three most important enemies: Delver, Miracles and Combo. For now I have only found configurations that will cover two of those three.

Some questions:
Why no Ruric if you're expecting combo? At least on Friday at Prague Eternal, the meta broke down so that Storm was the third-most played deck (behind Miracles & RUG). Having some game maindeck should be a part of the equation IMO.

My attempt at cracking a Miracles/Delver/Combo meta with Elves, assuming combo is largely Storm, Elves and Leyline-less S&T. Pretty much the same as the last one, but reverted Warcaller back to Nettle for more smoothness and turned the Llanowar Elves into an explosiveness option in Priest. It's not there as a "so mana such absurd wow" card. It's there as a result of asking where I'd actually want the Llanowar. Most cases, getting DRS/Arbor instead would be just fine, or the situation allows for the Priest and it's better. Not omgwtfbbq better, just a bit. Allows that extra dude to swing with Hoof, rebuilds post-sweeper a bit faster, small stuff. There are definitely nutcase scenarios but those are a bonus. Sometimes those extra lines win.

I think the greedy maindeck is necessary if you want to cover all the bases, though. Not because it improves G1 percentages so much, but because it frees up space in the board and allows you to play good numbers of good cards to cover matchups.

Maindeck: (61 cards, 12 spells 19 lands)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

1 Birchlore Rangers
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid

2 Craterhoof Behemoth

1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Priest of Titania
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize

[yaWgnorW]

Two questions,

@ Julian, the Pendelhaven you've been running, how is that for you? What scenarios has it come out on top for you? I apologize if this has been discussed recently, I've been out of the loop obviously.

And also, is anyone going to be in Somerset at the end of the month for either the Invitational or the Open?

[AznSeal]

Two questions,

@ Julian, the Pendelhaven you've been running, how is that for you? What scenarios has it come out on top for you? I apologize if this has been discussed recently, I've been out of the loop obviously.

And also, is anyone going to be in Somerset at the end of the month for either the Invitational or the Open?

I'm not Julian but i've also been running a pendelhaven. It's really good. It makes your 1/1s be able to block lackey, attack through sfm, live a golgari charm, attack into a flipped delver, and more.

[andrebonotto]

Hey guys,

After a few months away from Magic, I finally could spare the time to play a tournament.

There were 45 players there, and I got my ass severely beaten up. My matches were:

R1) vs. MIRACLES = 0 x 1
R2) vs. UWR DELVER = 0 x 2
R3) vs. ANT = 1 x 2
R4) vs. BURN = 2 x 0
R5) vs. AFFINITY = 0 x 2
R6) vs. MONO BLUE CONTROL = 2 x 0

Yeah, there were some unexpected decks there, and I found out that the room was full of Tundras.
It was awfull to start the event facing, in a row, our most dreadful MUs (Miracles, Delver, Combo). :cry:

The first match against Miracles was in reality a single slow game that took us 50 minutes!
It was very frustrating to reduce him to 1 life point and not be able to seal the deal because of the chain of Terminuses, Counterbalance + TOP, Jace and random permission/removal...
Just after he was able to find an Entreat the Angels and kill me, the round time was called. :rolleyes:




Anyway, not related to this specific tournament, but I want to ask you something about the Burn MU:


Q:- How often do you find yourselves chumpblocking (and not trading) in this MU?
Specially in the early game, when you cannot infer their speed precisely (and your own, maybe)?



I guess the question is about the value of our creatures here.

For I noticed that:


if I'm able to trade with their guys (1 to 1), I block willingly;

If I'm not going to trade with them (1 to 1), I tend to avoid chumpblock in order to try to preserve a "critical mass" of guys, for whenever I draw a Natural Order, it became lethal;


However, some of the times when I lose this match, I realize that if I could have prevented the loss of some points of life (e.g., by chumpblocking an earlier attacker), I could have won on the following turn.

Now that they get this Eidolon of the Great Revel, I think this MU is little more annoying. Good that we have Reclamation Sage MD for it (GSZ'ing for it costs 4 and doesn't damage us).


Any tips regarding this matter?

E.g., - a) If possible, should I still trade in a "card disadvantageous" way? [2 to 1]

E.g., - b) How do you approach a Hellspark Elemental (from lists a little outdated)? I generally don't block him because it does not seem to accomplish me nothing...

E.g., - c) When facing a resolved Eidolon, do you still cast some creatures (and take damage) in order to still have a kill, should you draw a Natural Order? Or do you wait and do nothing, gathering mana until you can cast a NO or a GSZ > Reclamation Sage?

[Arianeira]

I run Beta Forests and Future Sight Dryad Arbors. Only deck I bother foiling is my Vintage deck. I had my Elves deck a long time so beta land is nice. Although those Korean APAC forests look nice.

I been on the splash blue since Spell Pierce was printed since it helps with the Miracles and Combo match ups. Switched to Swan Song since it straight out counters most combo pieces or Counterbalance/Terminus.

List I been running online and in real life. Only recent change is adding the Reclamation Sage instead of Viridian Shaman but I been considering trying a few things.

Creatures (29)
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wirewood Symbiote


Spells (11)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Lands (20)
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Natural Order
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
3 Swan Song
4 Thoughtseize


Run Ruric Thar main if expecting combo, Progenitus if expecting more fair decks with removal. Local meta has a decent amount of combo and burn though.

I like main deck Scavenging Ooze because it is good vs grave yard decks and is a decent back up play to Green Sun's Zenith for if your board gets wiped.

Considerations.
1. Replacing the 9th Fetch with either a Taiga to cast Ruric Thar or a Pendelhaven to pump an elf against Golbins and Delver.

2. Cut something to try out Wren's Run Packmaster. Not sure on what. Any ideas? Not to keen on running 61 or cutting a land.

Sideboarding plans.
BUG Delver
+3 Abrupt Decay +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus,
-2 Heritage Druid, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Reclamation Sage -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Glimpse of Nature
Abrupt Decay to kill annoying things like Grafdigger's Cage, or Engineered Plague or sometimes Delvers.
Thoughtseize hard counters like Force or blow out spells like Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm.
Progenitus plan is the way to go since they can kill enough of your elves so that hoofing doesn't quite get there and Ruric Thar must attack so often dies to multi blocks so isn't worth it.

Belcher
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 mindbreak Trap +1 Natural Order, +2 Pithing Needle
-1 Craterhoof behemoth, -1 dryad arbor, -2 Elvish Visionary, -3 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 heritage Druid.
Plan is to hoof them or just get Ruric. Bring in all the disruption. hopefully they don't kill you turn 1.

Burn
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Natural Order
-1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Glimpse of Nature
You want Abrupt Decay to kill Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex. Extra Natural Order since Natural Order for Hoof or Ruric Thar asap to race.

Death and Taxes
+3 Abrupt Decay +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
-2 Heritage Druid, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Ruric Thar
Needle to name Vial, Jitte, Mother of Runs protecting Mindcensor, Wasteland or Port depending on the situation.
Natural Order for Progenitus usually wins. Have to watch out for Aven Mindcensor though.

Dredge
+3 Thoughtseize
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Ruric Thar
Its a race, try and thoughtseize their Careful Study, Breakthrough to slow them down so you can hoof them before they kill you.

Elf mirror
+4 Thoughtseize, +1 Swan Song
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Ruric Thar, -2 Elvish Visionary, -1 Scavenging Ooze
This is all who can hoof first so pull out the slow things you don't need. Thoughtseize and Swan Song for their Natural Order.


Goblins
On the Draw
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, THe Unbowed, -1 Heritage Druid
On the Play
+3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Nettle Sentinel,
Needle for Vial. Might be worth bringing in Abrupt Decay on the play since you can use it to kill Lackey before it connects.


Jund
+3 Abrupt Decay +1 Natural Order +1 Progenitus,
-2 Heritage Druid -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth
You need Abrupt Decay to kill Dark Confidant so they don't draw too much discard. Progenitus is the way to go since they don't have too many ways of dealing with it other then Liliana if its your only creature.

Merfolk
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
-1 Heritage Druid
Needle to name Vial or if they don't have Vial name Mutavault. Naming Vial slows them down by a couple turns which enables you to win before they can.


Miracles
In 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Pithing Needle, 3 Swan Song 1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
Out -2 Heritage Druid, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Quiron Ranger -1 Elvish Visionary
This is the worst match up for Elves with counters and sweepers. Don't commit too much to the board because of Terminus. Needle on Top helps quite a bit. You have Abrupt Decay for Counter Balance and Swan Song for Terminus. Progenitus plan is better then hoof because they need Terminus or Supreme Verdict to get rid of it.

Omnitell
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 Natural Order
-2 Elivsh Visionary -2 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Scavenging Ooze
Ruric prevents them from winning unless they bounce him so if you can't hoof for the kill just get Ruric.

Maverick
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
-1 Ruric Thar, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Heritage Druid, -2 Nettle Sentinel
You want Decay to kill their Knights. Progenitus plan because they run Swords.

Painter
+3 Abrupt Decay +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Pithing Needle,
-1 Ruric Thar,-2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 CratorHoof Behemoth, -2 Heritage Druid, -1 Glimpse of Nature
Disrupt their combo so you can go off faster. Fetch basic forest first to not get blown out by bloodmoon.

Reanimator:
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan song
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Heritage, -1 Symbiote, -1 Visionary, -1 Ruric, -1 Arbor, -1 Glimpse

RUG Delver
On play same as BUG Delver
On the Draw
+3 Abrupt Decay +3-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Natural Order. -2 Crater hoof Behemoth, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Reclamation Sage(keep sage if they board in Grafdigger's Cage)

Shardless BUG
+2-3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
-1 Birchlore Rangers, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -2 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel
They don't have a way to kill Progenitus other the Liliana which doesn't work if you have an extra elf to sacrifice so that is your plan afterboard. Cage is bad so you might want the full 3 decays. Thoughtseize to take Golgari charm.

Sneak and Show
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +2 Pitching Needle
-1 Crater, -1 Glimpse, -1 Ruric, -2 Heritage, -2 Nettle, -1 Quirion
Thoughtseize their combo peices and Needle Sneak Attack, Swan Song counters both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack along with their counters so is very good.

Storm
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 mindbreak Trap +1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 dryad arbor, -2 Elvish Visionary, -3 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Glimpse of Nature
Plan is to natural order for Ruric Thar which unless they boarded in bounce to bounce it they can't win. Thoughtseize Swan Song, Mindbreak to stop their combo.

UWR Delver
+3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Natural order, +1 Progenitus
-3 Heritage Druid, -3 Nettle Sentinel, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Craterhoof behemoth
Progenitus Plan again. Needles for Lavamancer and Jitte

@Julian
How do you like Wren's Run Packmaster? Does the champion become an issue? Zenith for 5 is probably a tall order after a board wipe and you need an elf to champion.

@Zombie
Not to keen on 61 cards in a combo deck. How does 19 lands work out for you? How is Wren's Run Packmaster. I haven't tried it out yet myself but am skeptical with it costing 4 makes it hard to Zenith for and the champion requires a creature so its not very good if your board just got wiped. I prefer Needle to Null Rod since if you go first you can cast it turn 1 before Miracles gets to play a land to Spell Pierce and it also stops Jace.

@AndreBonotto
Burn is a race can they burn you out before you hoof them? I dislike chump blocking because they can burn your elves in response to hoof so you need every single one. Only chump block if its lethal. Pyrokinesis is really bad news.

Casting elves with Eidolon out depends on the board and what I have in my hand and life totals if I can get lethal next turn without hurting my life so that he can burn me out I will commit. Sometimes I will just sit and wait and let them burn me a few times hurting themselves. Depends if they have other creatures and if they are hurting themselves to burn me. Ruric Thar can be an option to natural order for depending on the life totals and board state.

[Zombie]

@Zombie
Not to keen on 61 cards in a combo deck. How does 19 lands work out for you? How is Wren's Run Packmaster. I haven't tried it out yet myself but am skeptical with it costing 4 makes it hard to Zenith for and the champion requires a creature so its not very good if your board just got wiped. I prefer Needle to Null Rod since if you go first you can cast it turn 1 before Miracles gets to play a land to Spell Pierce and it also stops Jace.

The 61 cards have worked well thus far, as have 19 lands. To be clear, I only run 19 because I don't run the splash - if I'm splashing a third colour you can bet I'm going up to 20. I just felt I was drawing a few too many lands and wanted space in the maindeck to make room in the sideboard, so that's where I ended up at.

Packmaster is a house. She just takes over any remotely fair gamestate in short order even in the face of opposing removal. If the opponent feels forced to pull the trigger on a sweeper, so much the better, I still get value from the DRS/Visionary I stashed away with the Packmaster. It's really sweet how she gives me a really high-threat option with a midsize GSZ.

If your environment is mostly stuff like combo, I'd rather run Edric or something in that slot, if anything at all. It's a card to win fair games given fair decks have gotten more and nastier tools to deal with us.

NO=>Packmaster always feels really, really iffy because it eats two creatures. Not recommended.

The Null Rods are Null Rods because Needle doesn't do work vs. Storm. They're chosen specifically to crack a meta of Miracles/Delver/Storm. If the field was more about things like Sneak & Show I'd be running Needles.

[yaWgnorW]

The 61 cards have worked well thus far, as have 19 lands. To be clear, I only run 19 because I don't run the splash - if I'm splashing a third colour you can bet I'm going up to 20. I just felt I was drawing a few too many lands and wanted space in the maindeck to make room in the sideboard, so that's where I ended up at.

Packmaster is a house. She just takes over any remotely fair gamestate in short order even in the face of opposing removal. If the opponent feels forced to pull the trigger on a sweeper, so much the better, I still get value from the DRS/Visionary I stashed away with the Packmaster. It's really sweet how she gives me a really high-threat option with a midsize GSZ.


I think the majority have run the 18 land package (which is what I am at) and some are even taking a more aggressive/risky approach with 17 land. To be honest I fel 18 is just right, I'd feel overwhelmed with land with anymore.

Anyway I've also made the switch to Packmaster given the high praise it has received. Haven't been able to adequately test it yet but that time will come.

I've been back and forth on 60 and 61 cards. I know the math behind it and all the details, its really just what is most efficient. Right now I'm at 60 cards, running Packmaster and Reclamation Mage in the main, Ooze in the board. A 61st card would be a choice between Ooze main deck again or perhaps another simple mana dork.

Before adding Packmaster I was actually running 4 NO maindeck, as I felt that in the majority of my MUs I was boarding it in regardless. Now with Packmaster that 4th NO seems a bit much on the 4cc side of things, so that could also come out in favor of one of the other flexible cards.

[Lemnear]

Looks like Gabe got colors ;D (http://instagram.com/p/r5GO4ppPCh/)

[Dice_Box]

That's such a sweet piece.

[EluThingol]

You evil bastard :D

I'm running Future Sight Arbors and Zendikar Full Art basics.

+1. All of mine are foil, and I think the Future Sight foil Dryads are head-and-shoulders better-looking cards than FTV.

[jamie7keller]

Hi all! I just found this site, and figured this thread was a good place to introduce myself. I just made my first legacy deck and its combo elves! It is the most me legacy deck I know (oh gaea's cradle and fungal bloom, how I miss comboing you awkwardly....good times).

My decklist is limited by cost (only three cradles, only three fetchlands, only three natural orders, and only one bayou), but it seems to do well with my limited testing so far. I play the deck decently, with ~1 legit mistake per game (often non-fatal), and trying to improve that number.

I hope to attend GP New Jersey (for which I will beg to borrow the full gambit of fetchlands...deathrite shaman just isn't reliable without them). This primer is great, but as someone trying to learn the format in a hurry (well, in a couple months so a medium hurry), any specific advice?

[Julian23]

I play the deck decently, with ~1 legit mistake per game (often non-fatal), and trying to improve that number.

I read that one with the voice of a doctor telling us about his latest surgeries.

The best thing to do is to just play, play and play some more. You can most of the time figure out the correct course of action over time but I would estimate that for every mistake you actually realize, you might make twice the amount of them that you don't realize; the most critical yet hardest to spot ones for yourself when you are starting out are the strategical ones. Play all the matches, see which ones you want to NO in, which ones you really want to have lethal Glimpse and which ones a value-Glimpse is all you will need in.

I assume you can't play on MODO given that your paper version is still mising the CRITICAL 4th Cradle (I would play 5 if I could), so I won't talk about that. Just keep in mind that it's the best ressource (unfortunately also the only real one) you have available to get in your 30-50 matches/week. Because that's the stuff that helps you improve the most and (most importantly) learn the dynmaics of all the different matchups: PLAY, PLAY, PLAY.

[jamie7keller]

Here is my list, with the sideboard being a WIP:

1 Reclamation Sage
3 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
1 Multani's Acolyte
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

SB:3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize


I have played a lot on untap...not sure if that is used by folks on here or frowned upon. I wish I could port my real cards into MTGO, but I'm not going to start a collection from scratch there (plus I have very limited internet).

The worst things in my list are only three cradles (crop rotation helps with this, and for each time they counter it, i am getting a bonus by doing it in response to a wasteland...and I know some folks used to run 3 gaea's and some crop rotations...doesn't seem ideal to me, but has the community sworn off that plan wholesale?) and lack of fetchlands (which makes deathrite SO unreliable that I've cut him back to 2...this may be a mistake but he often sits there, not making mana, if my opponent isn't cracking lands). Extra bayous would be nice of course, but shockland does a fair imitation.

[Dice_Box]

I have noticed that. I don't play online, so sometimes I just pull out random decks on a Tuesday afternoon to give people something different to play against. I played against the Jund guy a while back and was so out of practice that he was giving me tips on how to play the deck. My ego took a hit.

Elves I think is different from a deck like Jund, Delver or Burn. It's not a "plug and play" deck. It's in many ways as complex as storm and if you take a break from it, your skills with the deck will suffer for it.

[jamie7keller]

I have noticed that. I don't play online, so sometimes I just pull out random decks on a Tuesday afternoon to give people something different to play against. I played against the Jund guy a while back and was so out of practice that he was giving me tips on how to play the deck. My ego took a hit.

Elves I think is different from a deck like Jund, Delver or Burn. It's not a "plug and play" deck. It's in many ways as complex as storm and if you take a break from it, your skills with the deck will suffer for it.

Even being new, I can attest to this. Luckily, it is exactly my type of mental puzzle; give me combo over scry/top any day.

[andrebonotto]

(...)

@AndreBonotto

Burn is a race can they burn you out before you hoof them? I dislike chump blocking because they can burn your elves in response to hoof so you need every single one. Only chump block if its lethal. Pyrokinesis is really bad news.

Casting elves with Eidolon out depends on the board and what I have in my hand and life totals if I can get lethal next turn without hurting my life so that he can burn me out I will commit. Sometimes I will just sit and wait and let them burn me a few times hurting themselves. Depends if they have other creatures and if they are hurting themselves to burn me. Ruric Thar can be an option to natural order for depending on the life totals and board state.


Yeah, that's a reasonable thought, but my problem is that, sometimes when preparing for a possible chump-block, I cannot tell if their attack it's going to be lethal or not - i.e., whether they have or not in hand the final burn to finish me.

In these cases, I tend to assume they have the "maximum burn output" possible in hand, and chumpblock accordingly, in order to not "get caught in short pants".

Regarding Pyrokinesis, I don't think my Burn opponents here tend to play it. They generally play Searing Blazes and Searing Bloods - and I have also faced someone packing Volcanic Fallouts, but this last one is uncommon...

Regarding our behavior when Eidolon is out, I found that it is rough to beat, if resolved on turn 2, when we're on the draw.
This situation cancels our Glimpse plan (be it "full combo" or "glimpse for value") - that is one of our ways of beating their speed
And this also difficults our NO plan, because for it to be lethal, we need to commit another three creatures to the board (= we need to take 6 "free damage" from the Eidolon).

In face of this thought, I wonder if it is worth to side out some number of Glimpse of Nature in this MU (I guess probably not, but still, this thought have come to my mind...)

I agree on the value of Ruric Thar here. He had won me my match against Burn this weekend, and in fact, I think that most of my wins against Burn had a "Ruric's hand" on them - the hand with the Axe (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/ur/ur241_m6ig5xh4z2_1.jpg) :laugh: ...

[Avatar of Light]

I'm running Future Sight Arbors and Zendikar Full Art basics.

I also run the same configuration, but both are of the Japanese variety, and the basics are foil.

[Arianeira]

@Zombie
19 land might be fine. I been on 20 for awhile though.

Will have to try Packmaster just picked one up online.

I was thinking more Zenith for Packmaster but you need to Champion an elf and that costs 5 to cast. Scavenging Ooze is much easier to Zenith for. Natural Order is reserved for Craterhoof or Ruric Thar but I have Natural Ordered for Viridian Shaman to get rid of Umezawa;s Jitte before.

I prefer Needle because it can come down turn 1 versus Miracles and it can disable Liliana and Jace as well as creature abilities.

I can see running Null Rods if your not running the blue splash for Swan Songs. You need something more then discard against Brainstorm, Ponder and top decks.

@yaWgnorW
Do you play against Delver often? Feel more land is good versus Delver. 17 seems really low in the face of Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, Spell Pierce.

I been running Ooze main deck. Its a good back up plan to Zenith for if your board gets wiped.

@Julian23
Have to agree with you need to practice. I was taking a vacation from Elves trying Miracles and playing Vintage a bit and got a little rusty.

@Jamie7keller
Get the 4th cradle next then the second Bayou. Fetch lands will be reprinted eventually in order to promote Modern. You might want to try a Priest of Titania. If your opponents are not playing fetches to feed your Deathrite maybe try some number of Llanowar Elves?

@Andrebonotto
Well you have to look at your next turn options and count their cards and mana and guess what they could possibly cast to kill you before thinking about blocking.

I still have Pyrokinesis in my board of my burn deck that I just have to loan if a friend needs a deck. Pyrokinesis is just so good against Elves and Death and Taxes with all the 1 toughness creatures.

Well if they have Eidolon out you want to Natural Order Ruric unless you have enough elves out for lethal or are like 1 away. Yes they can double burn him but they are taking 16 to kill him unless one of the burn spells is Fireblast. Just have to watch out for them blocking with Eidolon and Fireblasting Ruric.

[jamie7keller]

@Zombie
@Jamie7keller
Get the 4th cradle next then the second Bayou. Fetch lands will be reprinted eventually in order to promote Modern. You might want to try a Priest of Titania. If your opponents are not playing fetches to feed your Deathrite maybe try some number of Llanowar Elves?


Thanks for the ideas. I will get another Cradle if/when I can, but with a new baby, magic budget is tight. I am holding out on getting fetchlands, as you said, assuming they will be reprinted this year or next year, but they are so good for this deck I may try to borrow some, and I am going to hold off on trading the three I have (I did trade away an arid mesa, since that wasn't helping this deck any).

It seems like PoT belongs in an aggro elves list with wren packmaster, etc., but it seems akward in a combo deck. it comes down turn 2 at the earliest, doesn't function the turn it is played, is 2 mana rather than the one mana I like my elf dorks to be....Am I off base, or are both methosds viable in combo elves?

I hope to go to some smaller legacy events to try my stuff live (it's just different online) and see how my deck stacks up, but how willing should I be to go to a Grand Prix with a non-ideal decklist, like the one i listed above? I realize that even with the best deck I am an underdog to make it to day two at my first GP, and a deck running shocklands instead of duels is not doing me any favors. But if I keep waiting and second guessing myself thats bad too; we go to war with the decks we have, not the decks we wish we had.

[danyul]

You should go just for the experience. GPs are always lots of fun. There are a million things to do and a million nerds around to do them with. It's just a cool experience, win or lose.

Also, you should be trying to get as many reps under your belt as possible. The physical mechanics of this deck make the live play experience much different from playing online. You want to be able to manipulate all the small interactions efficiently. And under pressure. The best way to learn that stuff is in a live event.

So go. For fun and practice. Don't worry about winning. I find that when I worry about that too much, I end up losing anyway. Just go and have fun and focus on playing as well as you can. Because you can lose when you're playing well and win when you're playing shitty. Just try to always play to the best of your ability. The rest will follow if luck is on your side.

[Julian23]

So go. For fun and practice. Don't worry about winning. I find that when I worry about that too much, I end up losing anyway. Just go and have fun and focus on playing as well as you can. Because you can lose when you're playing well and win when you're playing shitty. Just try to always play to the best of your ability. The rest will follow if luck is on your side.

A lesson not only applicable to Magic, so to speak.

[PaulJordan]

Hello - I'm Paul Jordan. I've been playing Magic for 20 years. I have a wife and 2 kids, so my playing time is much less than it was during college. I play limited almost exclusively these days, but have plans to attend GP New Jersey later this year and have started familiarizing myself with Legacy so I can enjoy the tournament more and perhaps even be competetive again.

I stumbled onto this site via Twitter recommendations (I'm @magicPJ on Twitter) and sweet-holy-grail-filled-with-ice-cold-diet-mountain-dew-glistening-in-the-sun-after-4-days-in-the-desert is it amazing. I mean, like, wow. These deck guides all collected in a single place are probably the most useful MTG resource I've used since the early days of the Dojo. But you guys know you're awesome so let's not dwell on that. I'll proceed with the purpose of my post and shower you with praise upon further help.

I've been playing online in the tournament practice room a couple of times a week now for 2 weeks. I've gotten 16 matches in so far (8-7-1 [incomplete match, if you're curious]) and am now at the point where I'm relatively comfortable with the basic mechanics of the deck. I definitely am a little slow still. It must be infuriating to play against me.

I've been reading through this forum (I've gotten through about 20 pages so far - it's a lot to take in and I've found more than a couple of pages in a sitting will leave me forgetting what I've read) and appreciate every post. Below is the list I'm currently using. It's mostly a stock list - I'm not at the point where I'm that comfortable messing with stuff.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
9 Saclands
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Tropical Island

SB
1 Prowess Of The Fair
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Meekstone
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
1 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Natural Order
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swan Song
1 Worldspine Worm
1 Wren'S Run Packmaster

Edric in the main is the one thing I'm looking to try out. It has not really come up much and will likely not make the cut. This is my concession to my psyche's inexplicable Simicity. Note that the SB is really just a mess of things. This is on purpose. I'm bringing in a bunch of 1 of's in the hopes that I can see how more cards perform and understand which I like and which I don't.

One thing I've noticed so far is that it feels like the vast majority of matchups feature Progenitus in the 'side-in' column along with the 4th NO. So after siding it in a dozen times, I've gone for it none. Of course that's a small sample. I certainly grok its role in the deck, I just haven't gotten to execute that plan yet and it's a plan I'm almost thinking should have a spot in the MD. I'm curious what others think about this.

One thing I've found with this deck is that it's kind of easy to sit back and durdle around with the best friends team instead of going for the throat. It's something I'm certainly guilty of. Not sure what else to say about this except it likely takes a good amount of more games to get accustomed to reading the situation well enough.

That's all I have for now, really just wanted to introduce myself and say thanks. To those I've interacted with on Twitter, double thanks.

[danyul]

Don't forget to check out Julian's stream for some cutting edge Elves tech.

Edit:

I haven't tried Edric myself. But it's on my to-do list. I've heard good things.

NBD about the SB. You gotta test things somehow. That seems like a fine system.

I have actually cut the SB Progenitus entirely. I had the worst luck always drawing it in my openers and mulling myself out of the match. Also, the MD Wren's Run Packmaster serves a similar purpose. And most of the matches where we would want Progenitus (fair decks w/o counterspells) are already favorable. Of course, there are some removal heavy matches where Progenitus shines as well. But overall, I've found Scavenging Ooze and the Packmaster, along with some careful play, help mitigate that. I've also appreciated the extra sideboard space.

Yes, it is easy to durdle with the BFT. I guess the only rule there is to go for the kill when you draw one of your 11 spells. See if it resolves, make of it what you can, and then keep running the BFT card advantage engine if things don't work out.

[yaWgnorW]

Don't forget to check out Julian's stream for some cutting edge Elves tech.

Edit:

I haven't tried Edric myself. But it's on my to-do list. I've heard good things.

NBD about the SB. You gotta test things somehow. That seems like a fine system.

I have actually cut the SB Progenitus entirely. I had the worst luck always drawing it in my openers and mulling myself out of the match. Also, the MD Wren's Run Packmaster serves a similar purpose. And most of the matches where we would want Progenitus (fair decks w/o counterspells) are already favorable. Of course, there are some removal heavy matches where Progenitus shines as well. But overall, I've found Scavenging Ooze and the Packmaster, along with some careful play, help mitigate that. I've also appreciated the extra sideboard space.

Yes, it is easy to durdle with the BFT. I guess the only rule there is to go for the kill when you draw one of your 11 spells. See if it resolves, make of it what you can, and then keep running the BFT card advantage engine if things don't work out.

I too have the Progenitus drawing mystical powers of annoyingness. Enough so that on MODO I kept a tracker, and would tally it up at events. I never thought about discarding it entirely though. I just recently started with Packmaster so perhaps I may look into that.

[Zombie]

I too have the Progenitus drawing mystical powers of annoyingness. Enough so that on MODO I kept a tracker, and would tally it up at events. I never thought about discarding it entirely though. I just recently started with Packmaster so perhaps I may look into that.

Do you draw it more than you statistically should?

[yaWgnorW]

Do you draw it more than you statistically should?

Without a doubt. But who doesn't have that problem I suppose.

[Dice_Box]

Most fun is when you Mull to 5 and top deck Pro...

[D@N]

Was also thinking of cutting pro for runic thar, since my meta doesn't have that much storm and mding packmaster. it gives more slots for delver hate, how has everyone been finding it?

[Juice11]

Hello - I'm Paul Jordan. I've been playing Magic for 20 years. I have a wife and 2 kids, so my playing time is much less than it was during college. I play limited almost exclusively these days, but have plans to attend GP New Jersey later this year and have started familiarizing myself with Legacy so I can enjoy the tournament more and perhaps even be competetive again.


SB
1 Prowess Of The Fair
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Meekstone
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
1 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Natural Order
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swan Song
1 Worldspine Worm
1 Wren'S Run Packmaster
.

I'm interested in how prowess of the fair has worked out for you. It seems a bit slow, but I was curious what matchups you bring it in for?


Was also thinking of cutting pro for runic thar, since my meta doesn't have that much storm and mding packmaster. it gives more slots for delver hate, how has everyone been finding it?

I have cut Progenitus from my sideboard and couldn't be happier. He won me maybe 3 games in my time playing elves before cutting him. Not to mention getting raced by a lingering souls token with a batterskull. I have been stranded with him in my hand way more times than he has even entered the battlefield. Packmaster is pretty good in the same match ups that I bring progenitus in
and is actually castable when drawn.

[trevaftw]

I main deck Packmaster currently and he is amazing. Fills the curve quite nicely. 3 mana is sage or GSZ for visionary/ooze. 4 mana is natural order, packmaster, or gsz for sage. 5 mana is GSZ for Wren's Run. 6 mana is ruric that. 7 is gsz for thar. 8 mana is hoof. 9 is gsz for hoof. Edric has been very underwhelming for me in the main so far. Probably will cut him and the trop for a second basic and go back to 60 cards. Also well probably switch back to 4 therapy 3 MBT in board compared to 4 duress 3 swan song

[ESG]

Do you draw it more than you statistically should?


Without a doubt. But who doesn't have that problem I suppose.

Don't trust the hydra.

[PaulJordan]

I'm interested in how prowess of the fair has worked out for you. It seems a bit slow, but I was curious what matchups you bring it in for?


It was a card I found while passing time in Gatherer one day and wanted to try it against removal heavy decks. I've only drawn it once so far and that was while 'going off' so it was irrelevant. It likely won't have staying power but you never know. I'll keep it around for a while to give it a longer chance and report back any news (positive or negative).

[Julian23]

It was a card I found while passing time in Gatherer one day and wanted to try it against removal heavy decks. I've only drawn it once so far and that was while 'going off' so it was irrelevant. It likely won't have staying power but you never know. I'll keep it around for a while to give it a longer chance and report back any news (positive or negative).

Bouncing it with Wirewood Symbiote in response to Decay should be a lot of fun :P

[PaulJordan]

Bouncing it with Wirewood Symbiote in response to Decay should be a lot of fun :P

If they're targeting the Prowess instead of the Symbiote we're probably in good shape.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy DE with #Elves! Join us at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian ! #NewOverlayHype

[Havoc]

Jullian your choice in music is awesome

[Togores]

My cousin asked me:

why the fuck are you hearing the spice girls?

used to rock, heavy metal and so, its quite strange XD

[D@N]

what was that mess you were playing with wall of foots sin collectors, etc.?????

also how was meeting my friend james hsu? heard you guys got your beer on.

[uncletiggy]

Im curious what matchups does progenitus come in that worldspine worm doesnt. What im trying to find out is how necessary is prog really anymore could that slot be better used. Im looking at empyriarcal angel and thinking it looks more appealing. Any thoughts?

[ESG]

Decks that play Swords to Plowshares but not Terminus. I don't run Progenitus anymore, but he traditionally comes in against decks that can't interact with a huge hydra with protection. Death and Taxes used to be the place where he shined the most, but he's not as good now that Council's Judgment exists.

[lordofthepit]

he traditionally comes in against decks that can't interact with a huge hydra with protection.

That's what she said.

[yaWgnorW]

Decks that play Swords to Plowshares but not Terminus. I don't run Progenitus anymore, but he traditionally comes in against decks that can't interact with a huge hydra with protection. Death and Taxes used to be the place where he shined the most, but he's not as good now that Council's Judgment exists.

Yup, anything with white and access to StPs you'll want our hydra friend (everyone else other than my friend, since i only draw him...he's not my friend).

[uncletiggy]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

[ESG]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

I have played Terastodon before against Deathblade knowing that his postboard plan was a bunch of Supreme Verdicts. The nice thing about Natural Order is that there is no end to the targets. You could run any green creature in Magic: whatever fits your game plan. I personally would not take up too many sideboard slots with Natural Order targets, but feel free to experiment.

[uncletiggy]

That was kinda my point that wasting two sideboard slots on no targets feels wrong especially when the targets are functionally just big dumb beaters niether one wins the game when it lands or stunts your opponents game plan. They come in in already favorable matchups for the most part. Its been a long time since I played elves tho I want to get back behind the drivers seat but im not comfortable with the construction of the sideboard and want a better feel for why it looks the way it does and why the choices are necessary. Personally im leaning towards playing in bug colors.

[HammafistRoob]

That's what she said.
2008 Fail

[Rook1e]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

The Angel seems more than horrible against Storm? No impact at all?! What sm I missing (if anything)?

[Lemnear]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

I don't see how the Angel should affect storm at all and discussing the impact of a card against Delver while viewing the resolution of Natural Order as given is pointless.

[Holly]

I don't see how the Angel should affect storm at all

They'd need 8 more spells to kill you with Grapeshot !

[Havoc]

I'll try the angel but not for the storm matchup. I'm looking at burn or where their game is to try the beatdown plan. I hear mini prog has nothing on it