[Primer] Elves!

[dte]

I missed the ability-bit, my bad. I stand corrected. Though, keeping Jace on top still keeps them safe from NO.

Concluding: Don't run City of Solitude, run Pithing Needle or Null Rod. Or Abrupt Decay.

I guess you can withdraw the "or". Run decay (3/4) and Needle (1/2), these two are by far the more versatile answers, and Rod or Krosan G (0/1). I expect a withdraw of storm, so rod is maybe not as good as before the TC ban.
But I agree on the "do not run city".

[Shagstaman]

would you all recommend 2 needles before 1needle/1rod? (my 74 is locked aside from this)

I was thinking null rod has some incidental matchups it can crush (metalworker, painter) but needle having the ability to turn off thespian stage, griselbrand, sneak, and pwalkers is legit..

oh and null rod is slightly easier to resolve vs miracles..

so yea..

[Lemnear]

would you all recommend 2 needles before 1needle/1rod? (my 74 is locked aside from this)

I was thinking null rod has some incidental matchups it can crush (metalworker, painter) but needle having the ability to turn off thespian stage, griselbrand, sneak, and pwalkers is legit..

oh and null rod is slightly easier to resolve vs miracles..

so yea..

It does nothing against Cloudpost-MUD, Painter can blast it, etc.

You want Rod primary for Splash damage against the metagame aka if you have plenty of decks in the metagame which rely on artifacts like Miracles or Storm or even fringe stuff like MUD and Affinity.

[Zombie]

Rod also does good work against Blade Control and D&T.

[dte]

Rod also does good work against Blade Control and D&T.

I prefer Needle vs D&T, and I'm not sure to enter either of them vs blade.

[Lemnear]

I prefer Needle vs D&T, and I'm not sure to enter either of them vs blade.

Dito in D&T as Wasteland and SFM can be disrupted, and you want Decay against the Rest of their annoying stuff. I go with Decay against Blade and no Needles/Rods

[Julian23]

The main reason Needle is ok against D&T is Mother of Runes. If Mom lives, your Abrupt Decays on their hatebear become really hard to land. It can be done...but it involves a lot of trickery and slight misplays by your opponent.

I also don't reall like Null Rod against them since it doesn't stop Mother and is pretty risky to run as an our to Jitte vs a deck with 4 Flickerwisp.

[Shagstaman]

thx for replies!

my 74 just became...74 again cuz now I'm trying to find room for pendelhaven! lol

[chewemy]

First legacy tournament for me went 3-2

This was really fun and love elves :)

Lost the first one vs lands with small pox :( couldn't do anything. And lost against a burn, the glimpse failed me 2 times :(

But long life to elves :)

[DrHealex]

I played legacy for the first time in quite some time and chose this deck... pretty sure I could have made the 6-3 cut for day two at this legacy open but I think subconsciously, i really didn't want to come brave the elements for the 2nd day.
Rnd 1: Elf Mirror (2-1) I got a game loss g1 for mistakenly drawing 2 cards off a green suned visionary with a glimpse live.... oops!
Rnd 2: UW Stoneblade (0-2) Game 1 he FoW my turn 3 natural order and gets Jitte Online, Game 2 Explosives for 1 followed by online Jitte = bad times.
Rnd 3: Dark Maverick (2-0)
Rnd 4: BUG Shardless (2-1) Definitely remember losing g2 to back to back turns of Toxic Deluge. Note: If I ask "What are the chances he has the 2nd one" = 100%!
Rnd 5: Esper Blade (2-0) Game 2 was paper thin close since i just drop a lot of lil dude quick turn 2 and ride them to victory racing a true name +jitte
Rnd 6: Mono Green 12 post (2-1)
Rnd 7: Dark Maverick (1-2)
Rnd 8: TEPS (0-2) I "think" I could have won the first game but fail to see the line. Die to 16 gobos g1, and board wipe + tendrills for 17 storm g2. (Rode the Adnaus from 8 -> 1 to great success! with the assist from the recently acquired brainstorm for the needed kill card (burning wish)
Rnd 9: Dredge (1-2) Is lotus petals in dredge the new norm? Guy is turbo dredging on me!

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

You'll also be able to find all the VODs of every match we played over at http://itsJulian.com.

[yosoyez]

Thoughts about this decklist from Eric Rill? Sort of a take on the elves deck, splashing blue for some alternative combo. He's calling it Cloud Vine

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Vengevine

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition

Legendary Creatures
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
4 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard:
1 Notion Thief
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thoughtseize

[IMarques]

TL;DR : Not as resilient as the current build, slower, and doesn't solve the Problem.

Also I feed potential trolls on the premise that education is good for everyone.

Longer version: Its interesting, but the Vengevine combo seems slower than what we currently have and linear to boot. The great thing about Elves is that you can go in via Glimpse Combo or Natural Order Combo. Or just efficiently beat down/race with Deathrite and our untapping crew. Or BF team. This is what makes the deck good: the ability to win on multiple plans through disruption. This Vengevine version basically relies on winning with those Vengevines (manually) or super slowly with deathrite. The disruption suite is ok, but I don't think it's any better at disruptive tempo wins than Delver or Combo'ing off than Show and Tell decks/Painter/etc. Also, because its linear it basically dies to graveyard hate on the Vengevines. The stock list only really dies to Terminus and Co. If it's not better than those decks at their gameplan and its linear, why play it?

I should note, by the way, that my analysis above is assuming that the deck gets tuned to take out all of the cute cards (Edric, Titania, etc.) and that it finds someway to actually cast out that cute Craterhoof its trying to rock. In my experience a lot of your paths to 8 require a Cradle and or some number of Heritage Druids/Untappers. But this deck has none of those except the lone Quiron Ranger.

I would also point out that this deck probably does not do great against Miracles. Your steady stream of Vengevines and dudes is probably going to meet a steady stream of Terminuses and StP. I don't think 4 Force of Will is enough to protect that when you also need to be feeding your Tutors and Vengevine enablers (i.e. Fairies) to it. If you're not solving the Problem, then again the question is what's the value added of this version.

[Zombie]

You missed the 4 Cloud of Faeries in there? Cradle, Cloud, tap Cradle again seems pretty good for fueling huge GSZs.

[Julian23]

Then GSZ gets countered and you're left with a Suntail Hawk.

I only played the deck for a couple of matches over the last 2 days on MODO and really wasn't as impressed as I hoped I would be. Playing it far from optimal though, but I just had way to many of those "do nothing" draws that were totally dependant on 1-2 key spells resolving before the opponent's DRS get out of hand.

[IMarques]

You missed the 4 Cloud of Faeries in there? Cradle, Cloud, tap Cradle again seems pretty good for fueling huge GSZs.

I did not, actually. In order to get a lethal Craterhoof in the first place you've probably already got enough Elves on the table that its pretty redundant to untap the Cradle. In the stock list, that many elves would be able to generate the rest of the mana and usually untap unless you're quite bad with this deck.

As I mentioned in my first post, we would only want to switch our configuration if it gives us considerably better Miracles matches (the Problem), is significantly faster than the existing list, or offers greater redundancy than we already have. Again, I see absolutely no evidence that ANY of these criteria are being met. Things might be different if we could jam Survival in this shell, but life is what it is.

So again, I ask what's the value added?

That being said, I don't think the deck is terrible or hopeless. I could see a more aggressive version of this deck that ditches the elves and focuses on a lot of small cheap green beaters and the Vengevine aspect. The idea being that you put them under a lot of pressure and then force them to deal with Intuition and recurring Vengevines in addition to getting hammered by the beaters. That trades off against the need to cast multiple creatures for Vengevine, but it might solve the problem of having so many useless elves in the shell. In other words, the deck might be good if it ditched all of the cute cards and focused on a clear plan A and B. As written, I'm not surprised the list has a lot of "Do Nothing" hands that fold to disruption/are too slow to get there. And again, I question what this is doing that we couldn't do better/faster/more resiliently with the stock list.

[jmlima]

Guys, quick and small question.

How good would this deck be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?

Thanks.

[Zombie]

Guys, quick and small question.

How good would this deck be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?

Thanks.

Not especially. The two things this deck hates are Miracles and fast combo.

[Julian23]

You can tune the deck to be >50% post sb against regular Miracles. Not sure if you actually wanna do that, honestly. I'd be much happier playing Canadian Threshold in such a meta.

[Zombie]

You can tune the deck to be >50% post sb against regular Miracles. Not sure if you actually wanna do that, honestly. I'd be much happier playing Canadian Threshold in such a meta.

Yeah, that looks like a good meta for Canadian. BUG Delver would love it to bits also.

[jmlima]

Yeah, that looks like a good meta for Canadian. BUG Delver would love it to bits also.

Thanks guys.

Its for a buddy, but he wants something not dependent on the crazy expensive staples (Oyfs, FoW, Wasteland, etc.). Because its online the Cradles are quite reasonable so Elves was an option, but it seems not!

Thanks again.

[starfox444]

Thanks guys.

Its for a buddy, but he wants something not dependent on the crazy expensive staples (Oyfs, FoW, Wasteland, etc.). Because its online the Cradles are quite reasonable so Elves was an option, but it seems not!

Thanks again.

FWIW, I consider myself an average player and did the numbers on my mtgo matches a little while ago. Including my learning curve and playing during treasure cruise-forked bolt-fast combo mtgo hell, my MW% is around 55% I think. Maybe that just means I'm bad but I think the deck is fine. (Please don't turn this into a dick waving contest)

[henweigh]

How should we board and play against goblins?
Same two questions about Infect?

[Snickelfritz]

How should we board and play against goblins?
Same two questions about Infect?

I don't know about Goblins, but I beat Infect twice in a row at Indy this weekend. I run a build that splashes red for Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, which is fantastic against them. He is maindeck for me, which really helps against any combo-style deck that wins by casting a lot of non-creature spells in one turn. If Infect wants to pump their dudes enough to kill you, they'll have to take 12-18 damage first, and there's a 6/6 reach blocker in the way. They run counterspells, so if you have things you want to cut it wouldn't be terrible to bring in a couple Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy.
I boarded in all three of my Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle for Inkmoth Nexus (though I'm not sure that one was worth it), and the fourth Natural Order (I run 3 main 1 side) to find Ruric Thar as soon as possible. I cut 2 Elvish Visionary (it's most likely not going to be a long game, so card advantage is not an issue), 1-2 Wirewood Symbiote (their primary advantages are blanking removal and card advantage with Visionary, neither of which is relevant here - but they can randomly untap a dude to make lethal when you go off with Craterhoof, so don't cut too many), and Reclamation Sage if you have it maindeck. If I need to cut more beyond that, I just trim numbers on Heritage Druid or Deathrite. Anything that is either pointless in multiples or best in longer, non-combo games can be cut to make space.

[jmlima]

FWIW, I consider myself an average player and did the numbers on my mtgo matches a little while ago. Including my learning curve and playing during treasure cruise-forked bolt-fast combo mtgo hell, my MW% is around 55% I think. Maybe that just means I'm bad but I think the deck is fine. (Please don't turn this into a dick waving contest)

Its not about size, but about what you do with it. :tongue:

Ahem, back on topic.

We were discussing this yesterday and looking at the link below with the results for Elves on MTGO, it does not seem to be horrendous at all:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-elves-9294#online

My reasoning is that due to the high variance, if you end up in a daily full of ANT and Miracles you're stuffed, but they are not all like that. So, you'll win some, you'll lose some, which in the contest of what he's looking at, seems perfectly all right.

[Lemnear]

Thanks guys.

Its for a buddy, but he wants something not dependent on the crazy expensive staples (Oyfs, FoW, Wasteland, etc.). Because its online the Cradles are quite reasonable so Elves was an option, but it seems not!

Thanks again.

The obvious choice here is not Elves but Death&Taxes

[IMarques]

The obvious choice here is not Elves but Death&Taxes

True, although he did specify that his friend doesn't want to play expensive format staples. Presumably Wasteland has crept back up into this category. Aether Vials, Ports, and Karakas are also not cheap.

[jmlima]

True, although he did specify that his friend doesn't want to play expensive format staples. Presumably Wasteland has crept back up into this category. Aether Vials, Ports, and Karakas are also not cheap.

Quite right. Wasteland alone cost about as much as the entire elves deck. Pretty steep for someone just starting in legacy. And D&T is not exactly something one can build bit by bit as the basic requirements are about 80% of the deck cost, at least online.

BTW, Karakas are cheap as chips online, but Ports and Wasteland, not at all.

[Echelon]

Manaless Dredge is cheap as dirt. It has gotten worse since the TC ban though.

[Quasim0ff]

The obvious choice here is not Elves but Death&Taxes
Isn't wasteland like 150$ online?

[jim111589]

Well dredge got more expensive since their biggest dredger went from 50 cents to 15 bucks. But the price has more or less stabilized I think

[Julian23]

Elves and D&T cost about the same to build in paper. Golgari Grave-Troll is about $3.

I don't know where people take their prices from. Get on magiccardmarket.eu or make some friends in Europe already! :eek:

[jmlima]

Elves and D&T cost about the same to build in paper. ...

Quite true, but the discussion up-thread was about online prices, where D&T cost about 2-3 times as much.

[IMarques]

Elves and D&T cost about the same to build in paper. Golgari Grave-Troll is about $3.

I don't know where people take their prices from. Get on magiccardmarket.eu or make some friends in Europe already! :eek:

One of the biggest disappointments of my life was finding out Russia is not Europe, I have to say (obviously, this realization was wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy before recent events in Ukraine).

[Lemnear]

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/40F22E45-083B-461C-A8F8-8D5C74532EF0_zpskijw3lef.jpg

Grand Mother Gaea! Thanks BigUp!

[IMarques]

That is sweet. Who is the alterist?

[Lemnear]

That is sweet. Who is the alterist?

BigUp, as I wrote ;)

[IMarques]

BigUp, as I wrote ;)

I don't know, you young European kids and your "rap" music and your "slang" words. I have no clue what y'all are saying half the time ^__^

But seriously, does BigUp have a site or something, that is gorgeous.

[Lemnear]

I don't know, you young European kids and your "rap" music and your "slang" words. I have no clue what y'all are saying half the time ^__^

But seriously, does BigUp have a site or something, that is gorgeous.

Work (http://s415.photobucket.com/user/bigupbigup/library/?sort=3&page=1), Facebook Page (https://m.facebook.com/bigupalters?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbigupalters), Private Facebook Page and Contact (https://m.facebook.com/bigupbigup?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbigupbigup)

I don't feel adressed by "young', sir

[henweigh]

I don't know about Goblins, but I beat Infect twice in a row at Indy this weekend. I run a build that splashes red for Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, which is fantastic against them. He is maindeck for me, which really helps against any combo-style deck that wins by casting a lot of non-creature spells in one turn. If Infect wants to pump their dudes enough to kill you, they'll have to take 12-18 damage first, and there's a 6/6 reach blocker in the way. They run counterspells, so if you have things you want to cut it wouldn't be terrible to bring in a couple Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy.
I boarded in all three of my Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle for Inkmoth Nexus (though I'm not sure that one was worth it), and the fourth Natural Order (I run 3 main 1 side) to find Ruric Thar as soon as possible. I cut 2 Elvish Visionary (it's most likely not going to be a long game, so card advantage is not an issue), 1-2 Wirewood Symbiote (their primary advantages are blanking removal and card advantage with Visionary, neither of which is relevant here - but they can randomly untap a dude to make lethal when you go off with Craterhoof, so don't cut too many), and Reclamation Sage if you have it maindeck. If I need to cut more beyond that, I just trim numbers on Heritage Druid or Deathrite. Anything that is either pointless in multiples or best in longer, non-combo games can be cut to make space.

Thanks. This is helpful.
Anyone have thoughts on goblins and how to board and play against them?

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Elves! Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian[URL] :cool:

VODs including audio will later be posted to [URL]http://itsJulian.com (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian).

[chewemy]

Hi,

So with the meta changing back, do you think wren's run packmaster may come back ?

[Echelon]

I'm packing it in my SB this weekend to bring in vs. anyDelver.dec. They keep my board in check so I can't finish with the Hoof? Okay, I'll just start building an army of wolves! Have fun Bolting/Rough//Tumbling those!

[MD.Ghost]

Hi,

So with the meta changing back, do you think wren's run packmaster may come back ?

For me yes! - i already played with Packmaster my latest tournament and he was as good as before TC was printed. If people are prepared enough to stop the powerfull (and totally common) Natural Order Plan (Grafdigger's Cage; Containment Priest; and all the Removal/Counter stuff) you aren't happy to draw your Natural Orders. Packmaster is another option to generate enough trouble for your opponent, which should lead (most of the time) into a "GG"; it is a kind of another backup if the rest of the team failed: NOrder, Glimpse, Visionary+Symbiote, Zenith - fair enough it's only 1 tutorable Slot.

[IMarques]

I run WRP in the side for Delver match-ups, as well as other random match-ups where you want to be siding out some of your Natural Orders. I like having a mini-win condition that can be pulled out with GSZ. I also use Scavenging Ooze for this, as its good in those annoying match-ups where all your elves get plinked off but they don't have StP or something like this. I'm no expert on these things, though. I'm sure someone with more experience can chime in.

[IMarques]

Work (http://s415.photobucket.com/user/bigupbigup/library/?sort=3&page=1), Facebook Page (https://m.facebook.com/bigupalters?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbigupalters), Private Facebook Page and Contact (https://m.facebook.com/bigupbigup?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbigupbigup)

I don't feel adressed by "young', sir

Until you hit me with a cane and/or tell me to get off your lawn, the comment stands.

[Lemnear]

Until you hit me with a cane and/or tell me to get off your lawn, the comment stands.

Afaik I'm older than Julian, so this is irritating. (Yes this is a Quiz)

[itrytostorm]

I am new to Elves but my good friend has been playing it for a while. I saw a deck that someone has been topping with recently splashing U for Flusterstorm and wanted actual Elves players' opinions. Let me know what you think: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/173057

[Julian23]

Won / drew in the finals of today's Munich Legacy Event piloting the following list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze

I built the sibdeoard with a focus on beating both Storm as well as Show and Tell, thus the 6th Discard spell over any cute shenanignans like Surgical Extraction or Ruric. I would have still *loved* to fit a single Surigal Extraction into it but there was just nothing I would really wanna cut. Also note the 2/1 split on Needle and Null Rod. If it was just for Miracles and Storm, I'd rather see it at 1/2; Sneak Attack and Infect warrant the inclusion of the 2nd Needle though.

These were my matchups:

R1: Affinity, 2-1 W
R2: Dredge, 2-0 W
R3: OmniTell, 2-1 W
R4: D&T, 2-0 W
R5: Golddigger, ID

Deck felt great at all times and even got me out of some problematic situations by just having some unreal Glimpse chains. Vs OmniTell, I was able to Reclamation Sage his white Leyline which is always great as it creates this awkward situation for him where he cant Show and Tell Omniscience to cast Emrakul when you got a Wirewood Symbiote out. The correct play then is to put Emrakul but that of course opens them up to just losing once Elves untaps. In this game, I was able to just kill his Leyline, then overwhelm him with Discard.

I won 3 out of the last 4 paper tournaments I played ever since the TC ban. Elves is back, bitches! Had more fun during the last couple of weeks than I ever had in the TC meta. Not having to include the high-variance Chokes in the sideboard always feels good. Looking into fitting Surgical Extraction and Krosan Grip into the sideboard now. Let's see! :-)

Also make sure to check out http://itsJulian.com for VODs of all my recent Daily Events with Elves.

[Snickelfritz]

So the last couple times I have taken this deck out for a run, it seems like Glimpse of Nature has mostly just been a "G: Draw two" spell. I'm usually casting it very early just for a bit of value, with almost no chance of actually going off that turn.
Is that wrong? It feels bad, but IIRC I didn't lose any of those games. I'm thinking that if you have either a GSZ or NO to hold onto, it may just be correct to fire off Glimpse no matter how little you gain from it. I feel like the Glimpse combo turns have to go just right to really go off and win anyway, so that if you can just cast it for a little extra value it's usually worth it. And that's not to mention how well Glimpse will bait out counters - I've cast them for that even with no creatures in hand, and it works.

[Lemnear]

So the last couple times I have taken this deck out for a run, it seems like Glimpse of Nature has mostly just been a "G: Draw two" spell. I'm usually casting it very early just for a bit of value, with almost no chance of actually going off that turn.
Is that wrong? It feels bad, but IIRC I didn't lose any of those games. I'm thinking that if you have either a GSZ or NO to hold onto, it may just be correct to fire off Glimpse no matter how little you gain from it. I feel like the Glimpse combo turns have to go just right to really go off and win anyway, so that if you can just cast it for a little extra value it's usually worth it. And that's not to mention how well Glimpse will bait out counters - I've cast them for that even with no creatures in hand, and it works.

You can squeeze a lot more out of Glimpse with a Symbiote in play. Usually I hold into Glimpse till I have at least two more Elves in hand and access to at least 4 mana, because that Mikro-Glimpsing for just 1-2 cards is a plain waste in case you play against some attrition based decks like Shardless. The deck left the pure Glimpse-combo behind long ago. These days Glimpse is more of a reloader-Spell, drawing you 3-5 cards in average and bridges the gap between the "low impact" 1cc drop topdecks and the actual 10 finishers (NO,GSZ,Hoof).

[Brentane]

You can squeeze a lot more out of Glimpse with a Symbiote in play. Usually I hold into Glimpse till I have at least two more Elves in hand and access to at least 4 mana, because that Mikro-Glimpsing for just 1-2 cards is a plain waste in case you play against some attrition based decks like Shardless. The deck left the pure Glimpse-combo behind long ago. These days Glimpse is more of a reloader-Spell, drawing you 3-5 cards in average and bridges the gap between the "low impact" 1cc drop topdecks and the actual 10 finishers (NO,GSZ,Hoof).

I don't know, I've won a lot of games with only drawing 2 cards off from Glimpse I was out card advantaging the opponent. Also the Glimpse win condition is our 2nd primary win con, I still win with it a lot of games as the opponent is prepared for a Natural Order.

[Echelon]

You can squeeze a lot more out of Glimpse with a Symbiote in play. Usually I hold into Glimpse till I have at least two more Elves in hand and access to at least 4 mana, because that Mikro-Glimpsing for just 1-2 cards is a plain waste in case you play against some attrition based decks like Shardless. The deck left the pure Glimpse-combo behind long ago. These days Glimpse is more of a reloader-Spell, drawing you 3-5 cards in average and bridges the gap between the "low impact" 1cc drop topdecks and the actual 10 finishers (NO,GSZ,Hoof).

It kind of depends on the MU (and what game you are in, pre- or postboard). When facing anything non-blue I like to just go for it on turn 2, especially when on the play. It either sets you up for a nice T3 kill or you happen to draw the nuts and kill your opponent that same turn. Happened to me this weekend on G3 vs. Maverick. I was on the play and all he had done was GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Poor guy. Afterwards he showed me his hand and said "But I did have the Zealous Persecution". I didn't show him the Elvish Champion I could have dropped hadn't I been able to kill him that turn.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #ELVES! Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

Make sure to also check out itsJulian.com (http://itsJulian.com) where all the VODs of our matches played on stream will be posted with full audio (no muting! #Value) ! :smile:

[Vandalize]

Julian23, I've been playing the exact same 75 as you. Pretty nice list, well tuned and powerful. Could you (or someone who's experienced enough) guide me into sideboarding against some matchups?

RUG Delver
BUG Delver
Death and Taxes
UWr Miracles
UWR Delver/Blade
ANT
Sneak and Show
Elves Mirror
MUD
Shardless BUG
Jund

I usually see a fair amount of Grafdigger's Cage from those sideboards, and sometimes a pesky Toxic Deluge/Rough-Tumble.

[jamie7keller]

Hey everyone.

Off topic slightly, but I wanted to let you know I started a Legacy podcast, with a primary intended audience of people new to the format. Episode one is up now. Episode 5 will be Elves!

Feedback is welcome; I will be exstatic if people are able to point curious new players towards our show, Legacy Weapon. I love seeing new plauers find Legacy.

http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/legacy-weapon/legacy-weapon-101-an-introduction-to-legacy-2

Shameless plug is over.

On more elf related news, I grabbed a pendlehaven and a Teeg and will test with both, but without a karakas in my 75 I doubt teeg is even worth considering. I am not sold in theory on pendlehaven, but so many people swear by it I guess I should get some hands on experience.

[Shagstaman]

well being as how I am 73/75 off of Julian's list, I guess I am on the right track at least.

It's pretty late for any kind of "report" but my takeaways from the Indy SCG Open were:
- Miracles is still bad for us (faced it thrice), lol especially when they run md verdict, ee, and wasteland (!)
- Sneak and show is very winnable but you got to get a little lucky and play tight
- Scavenging Ooze is definitely a sb card now...he did nothing all day (this could easily change =/)
- Pendelhaven woulda been awesome, I shoulda listened!
- Surgical extraction and K Grip were both pointless and I probably won't be using them again any time soon unless reanimator/miracles both make a HUGE comeback...it just isn't worth diluting our strategy that much to bring in so many things.

Oh, and screw that wasteland guy. Seriously, lol...bayou vs top is supposed to be safe!!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Have I mentioned that I hate lands . . . .

I played in a local tourney this past weekend. I piloted the following deck.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Wooded Foothills

SB:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library

I ended up going 12-3 against a broad field of decks and came in second. I beat Miracles twice. And while Miracles is a tough match up, I always feel like I have a chance, even if they have the odds. I can live with that. But this tourney reminds me that there are two established legacy decks that always seem to have my number. Lands and Painter. I lost twice (once in the finals) to Lands and once to Painter. With both these decks, it just feels like a race and that I have little opportunity to outplay my opponent. I find it hard to board against these decks because they are so niche that the best cards against them are not worth putting in the board.

I fricken hate lands. That Glacial Chasm Zuran Orblock is murder unless I can get the Deathrite Shaman machine going. The Deathrites become easy targets for the Punishing Fire Grove of the Burnwillows shenanigans. And Marit Lage just plain sucks.

Painter isn't much better. I feel like I've got a better chance here, but not much better, especially if Blood Moon hits the table fast. They have a surprising number of ways to make that happen--even if I'm on the play and manage to get a forest down.

LoR

[Shagstaman]

punishing fire decks are actually the one reason I'd consider keeping Ooze in the MD... he kinda destroys that strategy.

You wanna know a card lands can't beat?

Elderscale Wurm.

[MadRhetoric17]

I ended up going 4-3 at the recent 40 Duals tourney in PA. It was one of the weirdest tournies ever, here's the breakdown:
2-0 Lands = Good matches, involving me upkeeping tabernacle for long periods to widdle them down.
1-1 Storm = Lose one heartbreaking game where I leave him with nothing more than a gitaxian probe to cast while he's storming. He has to draw a kill or lose next turn. He draws an I. Tutor for the win.
0-1 Death and Taxes = So painful to write down. Lost in 3 games where across all games he saw a combination of every possible hate card, matching up to what I had at the right time. He played well too.
0-1 Esper Deathblade = Another painful one to lose in 3 games. He went zealous persecution, toxic deluge, supreme verdict in consecutive turns one game :(
1-0 Elves = I drew better.

So yeah, weird and disappointing. Did well in some bad match-ups and poorly in the good ones. I think I side-boarded wrong for Deathblade as well, but I'm not sure. What are people doing in that matchup?

[jamie7keller]

punishing fire decks are actually the one reason I'd consider keeping Ooze in the MD... he kinda destroys that strategy.

You wanna know a card lands can't beat?

Elderscale Wurm.

This post. This post may have just opened my eyes on elderscale.....must go test....and get a fourth natural order....

[DrHealex]

This post. This post may have just opened my eyes on elderscale.....must go test....and get a fourth natural order....

The problem is that wurm doesn't actually beat them either. We both have ways to avoid decking.
Wurm can also be conceivably killed by 4xp-fire or tabernacle+LD in the SUPER long game.

[jamie7keller]

The problem is that wurm doesn't actually beat them either. We both have ways to avoid decking.
Wurm can also be conceivably killed by 4xp-fire or tabernacle+LD in the SUPER long game.

Yeah, but can't we just DRS them? I am have watched this matchup some but only played it once. So...they stay alive through casm, zuran orb, and life from the loam? We stay alive with elderscale. They try to kill us by quad punishing fire at the wurm. We try to kill them by DRS (which they will kill on site with punishing Fire) or reclamation sage at their orb (I assume they just play a second orb) or by waiting until they can't life from the loam anymore because of decking (do they run something to refill library, or just to recycle a single card?

Has anyone played lands where we get out wurm and they get out casm "lock"? Seems like you might go to time at that point.

[Shagstaman]

they have academy ruins usually to avoid decking...but if you can't find a way to win in 40+ turns, then you probably misplayed or got very very unlucky. We have multiple ways to interact with their gy and lands.

[jamie7keller]

they have academy ruins usually to avoid decking...but if you can't find a way to win in 40+ turns, then you probably misplayed or got very very unlucky. We have multiple ways to interact with their gy and lands.

I'm not so sure (again, I'm doing this without experience as a thought experiment). So they have glacial chasm to stop us from damaging them. I don't have a way to stop that or any lands directly in my 75. they can burn out a DRS before it is active. Scavenging ooze is harder for them, but I only run one and they can always point multiple punishing fires at it....seems like they have the inevitability if we boh get our "locks" down

Edit. If my best bet is that they leave themselves open or make a mistake (sacrificing their casm when I have DRS down, then leaving a punishing fire in GY without a way to recall it, etc.) I am not happy.

[Tammit67]

I have no idea why lands can't beat elderscale wurm.

I personally haven't had trouble with lands: We find our stuff way faster than they do

[DrHealex]

I'm not so sure (again, I'm doing this without experience as a thought experiment). So they have glacial chasm to stop us from damaging them. I don't have a way to stop that or any lands directly in my 75. they can burn out a DRS before it is active. Scavenging ooze is harder for them, but I only run one and they can always point multiple punishing fires at it....seems like they have the inevitability if we boh get our "locks" down

Edit. If my best bet is that they leave themselves open or make a mistake (sacrificing their casm when I have DRS down, then leaving a punishing fire in GY without a way to recall it, etc.) I am not happy.


If I were to choose something specific to tutor vs lands it would be realm razor, just to give me that brief opening, otherwise my plan is to just kill him before they get going.

[Tammit67]

If I were to choose something specific to tutor vs lands it would be realm razor, just to give me that brief opening, otherwise my plan is to just kill him before they get going.

Ruric Thar is way less cornercase and quite difficult to beat: They'd need loam, chasm and x2 thesbian stage + mana to not take anything and we need to not touch their GY at all.

[jim111589]

So I played a tournament on Sunday of 43 people in the LA area. I'm not very good at tournament reports and I didn't get much sleep but I'll try:

2 Burchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize



R1 Burn 2-0 win
g1 NO for craterhoof wins it for me t4. g2 I get ruic thar out when hes at 19 and I'm at 13 he double bolts it and fetches bringing him to 6 and I just get out hoof next turn and swing for 15 or so.

R2 BUG delver 2-0 win
g1 He mulls to 5 but still has t1 delver t2 flip, disfigure my t1 DRS. he got me to 5 but I NO'd for a lethal hoof. g2 I went for a t3 hoof and he didn't have a counter.

R3 RUG delver 1-2 loss
g1 He had a really good start with t1 delver, t2 flip burn my t1 play t3 goyf, burn my t2 play and just killed me. g2 I caught him with no cards in hand and lethal hoofed him. g3 I had a t3 scooze but he had a submurge for my scooze in response to cracking a fetch. He had a flipped delver, unflipped delver, goyf and mongoose to my 3 lands so I scooped.


I hadn't slept more then 5 hours in the past 2 days so I don't really remember the last 2 rounds before top 8.


R4 URW delver 2-0 win
g1 He got a jitte out but kept swinging in with it on a stoneforge while I had out ranger, symbiote , arbor and a few other elves so it never got through. First NO was countered but the next one won it. g2 I got a t2 or 3 glimps chain for the win.

R5 DnT 2-1 win
g1 t3 NO for hoof makes a quick game. g2 i boarded in to many things and had to slow a start and he just over ran me. g3 I took out 3 cards i boarded in for more main board cards. Packmaster overtook that game pretty hard with 3 wolves keeping him from wanting to swing but a hoof won it for me.

R6 big red ID


top 8 R1 same big red 2-0
g1 He had no idea what I was playing and kept a do nothing hand so I t4 hoof for over 80. g2 I was really tired and kept a real sketch hand of NO, cradle, 3 fetches, arbor, symbiote. I saw the guy play a few rounds against my friends and never say any bolts or anything so i figured i could NO early for progenitus and win fast which is what happened. i drew another symbiote and another NO and he had to 2 pyrotechnics to kill my hoof 2 symbiotes and my other arbor to buy him another turn but he had nothing.

top 8 R2 split

I got a tropical island out of it so it was a good day. 15 or so people were playing a bug deck and there was no combo other then me so I didn't get to use my discard. I don't think I will drop pack master or ruic thar from the main for the time being. They just seem to good in my meta full of fair decks and burn respectively.

I am still in love with this deck

[dte]

If I were to choose something specific to tutor vs lands it would be realm razor, just to give me that brief opening, otherwise my plan is to just kill him before they get going.

I have a really hard time believing that a 6 mana 4/2 is the solution vs a deck whose most troublesome card against us is Punishing Fire.

[Julian23]

Don't really know where I am with "my list" right now, but this is what I just used to 4-0 the Daily Event.

R1: Deathblade, 2-0
R2: UWr Stoneblade, 2-0
R3: Infect,, 2-1
R4: UWr MentorBlade, 2-1

Uncontested MVP of the day: Scavenging Ooze. Note that I sided down to 0-1 Natural Order in at least 75% of sideboarded games.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9qpGK8IgAAzVbX.jpg:large

[starfox444]

-snip-

Good job cutting the savannah and taiga, that's a start (not sure if I'm too late for that joke). I've tried having 4 decays in the board for a little while to combat containment priest, didn't really like it. Would rather just try to draw a billion cards. I'm much happier trying to grind for value in the Cruiseless world where our late game isn't outclassed by every single deck with islands in it.

I haven't played against infect much so I don't know what those games look like. I assume it's ok for us if they don't have the T2 kill?

[Julian23]

We just allow them to have the turn2 kill as it will be most likely enabled by Berserk, a 2-of. Overal I see much better EV in sometimes losing a game on turn2 than to always block on turn2. It's different if you're on the play and have a start that actually allows you to use Wirewood Symbiote without falling to far behind. But on a slow hand, I think you're gonna win more games out of 100 when you just call them.

The match itself is a lot about Inkmoth Nexus, especially postboard. Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent need to be Abrupt Decay'ed at sorcery speed at most times. Use your judgement of the current situation on whether you could actually afford to do it at Instant speed. Most of the time, a lethal Vines of Vastwood will probably so "no!". The one big problem in the matchup is that we have zero reactive plays to EoT Crop Rotation into Inkmoth Nexus into the kill. That's why I like bringing in 2 Needles for Nexus as well as 3 Cabal Therapy for Invigorate. You need to have some game vs Nexus. I also sometimes Decay Noble Hierarch if I have a spare one and their following turn doesn't see them play another Infecter; even more so if they play a Ponder into shuffle etc. Again, use your judgement of the situation and try to find out what exactly you could be losing against.
I'm also not in a rush to kill them ASAP, even though it of course helps. But with Cabal Therapy in the mix, I feel that Elves can buy a couple of turns. Also don'T underestimate the life loss of Fetches, Gitaxian Probe and Force, they often just lose to regular beatdown + DRS. One "trick" you can use is to activate DRS on their graveyard in their declare attackers step when they attack with Glistener Elf. Depending on how many cards they have (or how good they are) they might (feel forcecd to) respond with Become Immense, giving you valuable information on whether you should block or just take it. Other than that, especially when in a tight race, I like activating DRS at sorcery speed if that means they won't be able to Become Immense on their turn. But between Gitaxian Probe, Fetchlands and Invigorate, I'd rather not count on a 2-card graveyard not casting Become Immense on the same turn.

Etc. etc. In the end it's all about being conscious about which hands you wanna beat and not giving up overall EV by trying to play around their premium hands. That's like never asking a woman out on a date because she might be one of those few who doesn't like the color of your eyes.

/Edit:
http://i.imgur.com/inCwYMP.png

[starfox444]

Thanks for the explanation Julian, I rarely run into the deck on mtgo and no one plays it locally so I don't have much experience in the matchup. From just reading lists turn-2 was the number I picked since after that all our interaction is online and the type of interaction we have isn't too awful, being able to strip their hand of pump spells and abrupt decay the creatures, or block them if need be. I think this is especially true with your list featuring 2 needle for inkmoth, since that is the only thing we struggle to interact with.

I can understand going lower on the NOs given we can interact with inkmoth via needle, but I imagine if this is not the case the matchup turns into varying degrees of being awful since we are just stone cold to it otherwise.

Just for the sake of understanding, suppose we have 0 needle. Is then our approach to board for fast combo with 6 discard spells and lean on NO as the long game is untenable? Taking their pump spells to avoid a quick kill from nexus or taking counters to clear the way for NO seems like a reasonable path to victory given we just die to inkmoth if we try to play to the lategame.

Now suppose we only have 1 needle - my thoughts would be that it is unrealistic to rely on an untutorable 1 of and we have 2 options. Play the game as though we are unlikely to draw it or mulligan aggressively. Since we need a large amount of resources to combat our opponent during the mid and early game, consisting of; discard spells, blockers, AD and cards for our own board development, I don't think it is reasonable to mulligan aggresively. In this case would the approach would be more similar to what I've stated supposing we have 0 needle (supposing that approach is even correct, which it may not be, I'm just hypothesising here and I'm happy to defer to those with experience)?



-snip-

That's like never asking a woman out on a date because she might be one of those few who doesn't like the color of your eyes.


Words to live by!

[henweigh]

Is progenitus really worth a sideboard slot? I find that a draw the damn thing constantly.

When do we want to sideboard in Progenitus?

[Shagstaman]

Is progenitus really worth a sideboard slot? I find that a draw the damn thing constantly.

When do we want to sideboard in Progenitus?

1. Yes.
2. Sometimes it bees like that. We've all been there, it's the risk associated with the reward.
3. hes amazing vs "fair" decks that otherwise have no realistic way to interact with him and do not have a way to kill you in 2 turns (think jund, dnt, delver decks, blade decks, etc) or vs Show and Tell decks as a way to "get em"

[henweigh]

I'm just wondering if there might be a better option. Something that keeps us moving on the fair decks but that isn't such a horror to cast if it ends up in your hand. Heck, I've once even cast the sucker on an amazing glimpse turn, but usually, it's useless cardboard in my mitt. Often, but certainly not always, a Hoff will be as good as a Progenitus. I just wonder if there isn't some other better choice.

[Dice_Box]

If I were to choose something specific to tutor vs lands it would be realm razor, just to give me that brief opening, otherwise my plan is to just kill him before they get going.

Razor does not stop Moxen from making mana and two toughness is the cardinal sin against lands.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Elves - joins us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

VODs with sounds (no muting!) will later be found at http://itsJulian.com. #GreatValueAwaits

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Elves - joins us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian)

Let's see how many UWr/Grixis Stoneblade decks we'll run into this time. 8 out of 4? :cool:

VODs with sounds (no muting!) will later be found at http://itsJulian.com. #GreatValueAwaits

[TheRedMenace]

Hey guys! Long time reader, first time poster. I've been playing the deck for a year and a half though. I was actually curious if anyone knew about securing non-english versions of a few cards. I've done some scouring on the internet but can't locate Wirewood Symbiotes or Birchlore Rangers. If anyone knows where I can locate those, it would be much appreciated :)

[starfox444]

Hey guys! Long time reader, first time poster. I've been playing the deck for a year and a half though. I was actually curious if anyone knew about securing non-english versions of a few cards. I've done some scouring on the internet but can't locate Wirewood Symbiotes or Birchlore Rangers. If anyone knows where I can locate those, it would be much appreciated :)

I just tried putting the translated names into ebay and a bunch of results came up.

[TheRedMenace]

I never tried that approach. Was just searching languages and then the name. Thank you!

[haganbmj]

I never tried that approach. Was just searching languages and then the name. Thank you!

Be sure you're also looking at international auctions as well. There's an option in eBay search for Worldwide or something.
Try and get creative with your searches as well, it took me a few months to hunt down elves in German, but it helped to broaden my search.

German, deutsch, ger, de

What language are you going for?

[TheRedMenace]

Be sure you're also looking at international auctions as well. There's an option in eBay search for Worldwide or something.
Try and get creative with your searches as well, it took me a few months to hunt down elves in German, but it helped to broaden my search.

German, deutsch, ger, de

What language are you going for?

I am after Japanese mainly but German is a close second. Honestly, it's not well thought out right now. I kinda just have it jammed with random languages. I'm looking to uniform it at some point to either Japanese or German but the goal for now is to just make sure there's not an english card in the 75.

[Lemnear]

I am after Japanese mainly but German is a close second. Honestly, it's not well thought out right now. I kinda just have it jammed with random languages. I'm looking to uniform it at some point to either Japanese or German but the goal for now is to just make sure there's not an english card in the 75.

German Duals exist; japanese do not.

[AznSeal]

I am after Japanese mainly but German is a close second. Honestly, it's not well thought out right now. I kinda just have it jammed with random languages. I'm looking to uniform it at some point to either Japanese or German but the goal for now is to just make sure there's not an english card in the 75.

The High End Group and Non-English Group on Facebook has a lot of high end foreign singles. It's also pretty trustworthy.


Also, on the topic of foreign foils, I figured I'd share this since it's Chinese New Years and I'm Chinese.

I finally have some progress. I couldn't finish my deck as planned because I had to buy a lot of stuff for school (medical equipment is expensive :(()

Here is my current S-chinese Elf deck along with random EDH stuff and my starting of a vintage deck for when I graduate (unfortunately, the power is my dads >_>_>_>_>_>)

http://i.imgur.com/hIzt8ik.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/tTNihfm.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/Gxvmvvd.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/6FB8qGS.jpg?1

All the creatures are foil and in S-Chinese except for 1 Deathrite Shaman (I'm keeping this English foil signed because it was given to me by someone really close to me), a nonfoil S-Chinese Dryad Arbor (can't find 1 more foil), and 2 Nonfoil S-Chinese Birchlore Rangers (no luck finding)

For the lands and spells, it's pretty much done for now. I had a really good deal for Onslaught S-Chinese fetchlands but I had to pass it over because of school. My LGS was able to buy a box of S-chinese box for me though and I pulled a couple Khan fetches so I guess they have to do for now...

The SB is complete except for 3 S-Chinese foil Abrupt Decays. Not really hard to find if you know where to look, i'm just poor because of school.

The last picture is for my Humanstorm deck in progress.

[Blastoderm]

What do you guys side in vs UWR delver? Is progenitus the best option? I can't seem to beat this matchup because of all the Fow + spell pierce and the 4 swords 4 bolt + jitte +whatever sideboard hate they bring in.

[AznSeal]

What do you guys side in vs UWR delver? Is progenitus the best option? I can't seem to beat this matchup because of all the Fow + spell pierce and the 4 swords 4 bolt + jitte +whatever sideboard hate they bring in.

I basically windmill slam spells they have to answer. WRP is good and so is progenitus. I try to out grind them with visionary/symbiote/slyvan library

[Blastoderm]

I basically windmill slam spells they have to answer. WRP is good and so is progenitus. I try to out grind them with visionary/symbiote/slyvan library

Ok I'll try windmill slamming instead. I usually timidly place my cards on the table and ask with a quivering voice: "O--ok?".


:)

[Zombie]

Ok I'll try windmill slamming instead. I usually timidly place my cards on the table and ask with a quivering voice: "O--ok?".


:)

I'll put it this way: Storm has ~6-7 cards that actually kill. Elves? 14-16. You have absurd "I Win" card density. Beat them with brute force!

[Teluin]

Uncontested MVP of the day: Scavenging Ooze. Note that I sided down to 0-1 Natural Order in at least 75% of sideboarded games.

I've recently started testing a list without Natural Orders at all. I removed the NO's and just play 3 Gaea's MB with 1 in the SB - I then put in 4 Living Wish. Put a Craterhoof, another Reclamation Sage, etc in the SB which is a work in progress, but it shows promise. With all the Blue decks in the format, you don't get hit for the all too common 2-for-1 NO being countered, it costs 1G, and with Gaea's being tutorable you can see a lot of mana for GSZ or just Wishing for a win con. Oftentimes you draw a Gaea's and then can tutor for another. The main thing is finding win cons with different mana costs so mana never restricts you.

[elFinFas]

Can you share that list ?Teluin

[Teluin]

Can you share that list ?Teluin

Sure thing - keep in mind it's very tentative right now. I've put in 4 Birchlore to help pump out guys for GSZ/Wish and to keep Glimpse going. The sideboard is a toolbox so a lot of 1-ofs, but it definitely needs to be tuned. I wanted to cover bases for mana/card draw/win cons.


Land

2 Forest
2 Bayou
3 Gaea’s Cradle
7 Fetchland
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

Total: 17

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force

Total: 27

Spells

4 Living Wish
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

Total: 12

Sideboard:

1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Multani’s Acolyte
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Thoughteize
1 Cabal Therapy

[LeoCop 90]

Karakas in the board is a must if you are playing living wish. I think it can replace maze of ith since most big creatures you would like to stop are legendary anyway.

[Holden1669]

Sure thing - keep in mind it's very tentative right now. I've put in 4 Birchlore to help pump out guys for GSZ/Wish and to keep Glimpse going. The sideboard is a toolbox so a lot of 1-ofs, but it definitely needs to be tuned. I wanted to cover bases for mana/card draw/win cons.


Land

2 Forest
2 Bayou
3 Gaea’s Cradle
7 Fetchland
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

Total: 17

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force

Total: 27

Spells

4 Living Wish
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

Total: 12

Sideboard:

1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Multani’s Acolyte
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Thoughteize
1 Cabal Therapy

This is very interesting. I really like Natural Order but I like the way you're approaching this. Of course we don't want to water down the Elf count too much but you could include a few copies of Natural Order in this deck as well. It is a potential 2 for 1 but sometimes it just wins you the game. And running Living Wish like this plus two or so copies of Natural Order does raise the threat density in a counter-this-or-lose kind of way.

[Echelon]

@Teluin: 17+27+12 = 56 cards. You're 4 short.

Also, Dryad Arbor should be seen as a creature and not as a land. As it stands you're only running 12 lands that can net you mana on T1. I reckon you want this to be 14, 10 being fetchlands and the others 2 Bayou + 2 Forest.

The downside of this approach is that you need so much mana to cast Craterhoof. Rather then pay 4 and be done with it, you have to gather 10 to make your kill in one turn. The strength of NO is that it gives you the ability to win out of the blue. Mustering 10 mana is not stealing a win out of the blue, it's "Yay, my opponent didn't bust my ass and with NO I would've won 2 turns ago".

[.Ix]

Has anyone tested a Taiga main and 2 Slaughter Games in the sideboard? I resolved it game 2 against Miracles last night naming Terminus, then took him to 3 life until I did a dumb misplay, then drew air for so many turns until I completely lost the window I needed to win. He locked me out with CB/TOP/Jace/Peacekeeper. I think it's pretty solid, though. Also, I won 6 out of 7 preboard games. I feel like I was just lucky, but it seems like Game 1 just not as bad as people think. I even won past a 5-for-1 Terminus.

edit:
Speaking of nutty sideboard tech:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9124&d=252090&f=LE

Dat Tasigur

[Lemnear]

Has anyone tested a Taiga main and 2 Slaughter Games in the sideboard? I resolved it game 2 against Miracles last night naming Terminus, then took him to 3 life until I did a dumb misplay, then drew air for so many turns until I completely lost the window I needed to win. He locked me out with CB/TOP/Jace/Peacekeeper. I think it's pretty solid, though. Also, I won 6 out of 7 preboard games. I feel like I was just lucky, but it seems like Game 1 just not as bad as people think. I even won past a 5-for-1 Terminus.

edit:
Speaking of nutty sideboard tech:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9124&d=252090&f=LE

Dat Tasigur

That Tasigur is basically in the WRP or Ooze slot for the scenario of your board being sweeped by Punishing Fire/Pyroclasm/etc. and you being able to drop Tasigur for cheap, recovering with his cardadvantage-ability.

Dunno if this tech is that hot in the end

[Echelon]

Unfortunately you can't GSZ for Tasigur where you can for WRP.

Now if we were to run a Fierce Empath over an Elvish Visionary... Lol

[Lemnear]

Unfortunately you can't GSZ for Tasigur where you can for WRP.

Now if we were to run a Fierce Empath over an Elvish Visionary... Lol

Its obviously all about of how many mana you think you have left post-sweep

[Echelon]

Its obviously all about of how many mana you think you have left post-sweep

2 or 3, tops!

I just don't like the idea of running a 1-off creature I can't tutor for (or durdle into). It's rather likely you won't see it games 2 and 3 so it might just as well have been a Knight of the Hokey Pokey.

[.Ix]

That Tasigur is basically in the WRP or Ooze slot for the scenario of your board being sweeped by Punishing Fire/Pyroclasm/etc. and you being able to drop Tasigur for cheap, recovering with his cardadvantage-ability.

Dunno if this tech is that hot in the end




Its obviously all about of how many mana you think you have left post-sweep

Yeah this is exactly what I think. Just had to mention it 'cause Tasigur in Elves looks far out.

[Echelon]

Just had to mention it 'cause Tasigur in Elves looks far out.

OMG this is so funny. I'm still loving the "Can't we play Tasigur here?" thing. I also saw it over in the Maverick board. This is getting kinda silly.

The only thing I'm still waiting for is people to go "Can't we play Sultai Scavenger as pseudo-Delvers?". Next thing we know, we're playing midrange NO Elves! with black Delvers! Or would we have to call the deck Delverick (triple combo!)?

[Lemnear]

OMG this is so funny. I'm still loving the "Can't we play Tasigur here?" thing. I also saw it over in the Maverick board. This is getting kinda silly.

The only thing I'm still waiting for is people to go "Can't we play Sultai Scavenger as pseudo-Delvers?". Next thing we know, we're playing midrange NO Elves! with black Delvers! Or would we have to call the deck Delverick (triple combo!)?

This bullshit took over with Treasure Cruise in Decks which ran t.hold or Tarmogoyf and now people do the same and seek for excuses to run Tasigur because "cards go into the graveyard naturally in MTG".

For me this is nothing more than the second coming of Tombstalker: Bit cheaper, not evasive, takes more time to take down your opponent and with a pretty irrelevant ability due to its cost and randomness. I still remember WHY Tombstalker fell from grace and this one is no way different. Hell, even Karakas will fuck with Tasigur if I think of Lands/D&T/Miracles/Maverick!

[Echelon]

This bullshit took over with Treasure Cruise in Decks which ran t.hold or Tarmogoyf and now people do the same and seek for excuses to run Tasigur because "cards go into the graveyard naturally in MTG".

For me this is nothing more than the second coming of Tombstalker: Bit cheaper, not evasive, takes more time to take down your opponent and with a pretty irrelevant ability due to its cost and randomness. I still remember WHY Tombstalker fell from grace and this one is no way different. Hell, even Karakas will fuck with Tasigur if I think of Lands/D&T/Miracles/Maverick!

Thank you, good sir! We can always rename Tasigur to Tombwalker, since it doesn't fly and all.

[Shagstaman]

Has anyone tested a Taiga main and 2 Slaughter Games in the sideboard? I resolved it game 2 against Miracles last night naming Terminus, then took him to 3 life until I did a dumb misplay, then drew air for so many turns until I completely lost the window I needed to win. He locked me out with CB/TOP/Jace/Peacekeeper. I think it's pretty solid, though. Also, I won 6 out of 7 preboard games. I feel like I was just lucky, but it seems like Game 1 just not as bad as people think. I even won past a 5-for-1 Terminus.

I've toyed with the idea of slaughter games, since there are a few matchups we can probably get free wins against with it, but yea miracles is very winnable and tbh I don't even lose the games where they do terminus or couter-top usually...it's the early entreats or the venser lock that gets me =( Venser being more than 3 mana hurts!

back to slaughter games tho, I think the main problem is there's no one card you can name vs any deck to shut them down. Reanimator has multiple fatties we lose to (iona, elesh, archon) as well as multiple enablers...show and tell has sneak attack backup plan and either griselbrand or emrakul is gg (altho making them use grisel gives us outs)...lands you can't name dark depths :(...naming punishing fire seems legit vs those decks but myeh...and vs storm what do you name? infernal tutor? --see my point?

[Teluin]

@Teluin: 17+27+12 = 56 cards. You're 4 short.

Also, Dryad Arbor should be seen as a creature and not as a land. As it stands you're only running 12 lands that can net you mana on T1. I reckon you want this to be 14, 10 being fetchlands and the others 2 Bayou + 2 Forest.

The downside of this approach is that you need so much mana to cast Craterhoof. Rather then pay 4 and be done with it, you have to gather 10 to make your kill in one turn. The strength of NO is that it gives you the ability to win out of the blue. Mustering 10 mana is not stealing a win out of the blue, it's "Yay, my opponent didn't bust my ass and with NO I would've won 2 turns ago".

Haha oops, yeah count them it's 31 creatures, I just forgot to change the actual number in the document before copy/pasting. Also, the mana hasn't really been an issue. 12/60 means the chances of getting a land in your opening seven are very high. As I mentioned though, the deck hasn't been fine tuned - I just shared it because someone asked.

I know NO can be good but it can also really suck. I quoted Julian because I often side out NO's in a lot of matches too. With Wish you don't, and it even makes your Game 1 against normally tough matches pretty decent. Yes, it can slow the deck down by about a turn as opposed to the NO sneak win, but it has added consistency because of the options it gives you.

Anyway, try it out. It's just a different approach I'm trying and any feedback from people is appreciated.

[.Ix]

I've toyed with the idea of slaughter games, since there are a few matchups we can probably get free wins against with it, but yea miracles is very winnable and tbh I don't even lose the games where they do terminus or couter-top usually...it's the early entreats or the venser lock that gets me =( Venser being more than 3 mana hurts!

back to slaughter games tho, I think the main problem is there's no one card you can name vs any deck to shut them down. Reanimator has multiple fatties we lose to (iona, elesh, archon) as well as multiple enablers...show and tell has sneak attack backup plan and either griselbrand or emrakul is gg (altho making them use grisel gives us outs)...lands you can't name dark depths :(...naming punishing fire seems legit vs those decks but myeh...and vs storm what do you name? infernal tutor? --see my point?

Well yeah Slaughter Games doesn't single-handedly solve everything. I don't think I'd board it in against combo without any other disruptive cards, though. It's definitely a solid card against Miracles to get Entreat, and could be pretty good against Sneak alongside pithing and discard. This guy even runs Swan Song and Slaughter Games:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15955&iddeck=118935

I don't know how good it is, but I think I'll keep running it in testing to get a feel for it.

[Julian23]

I just uploaded 24 New Elves Videos to itsjulian.com (http://itsjulian.com). This includes 6 Legacy Daily Events and some other goodies like the Giant Spider deck I recently crafted.

Of all the cool matches we had, I especially the match against Michael Bonde's RG Lands deck (http://itsjulian.com/?videogallery=vs-rg-lands-1-r2-of-daily-event). Was a tight dance under Tabernacle, Punishing Fire and Sphere of Resistance :cool:

[Brentane]

So everybody I've seen so far is using Regal Force. I switch it with Wren's Run Packmaster recently. Should I go back to Regal Force and put Packmaster in the side board? Why has everyone switched to Regal Force recently?

[Lemnear]

So everybody I've seen so far is using Regal Force. I switch it with Wren's Run Packmaster recently. Should I go back to Regal Force and put Packmaster in the side board? Why has everyone switched to Regal Force recently?

Who is "everybody"? 10-year olds on MTGO? How is drawin' 4 cards any better than killing your opponent?

[Brentane]

Who is "everybody"? 10-year olds on MTGO? How is drawin' 4 cards any better than killing your opponent?

I'm sorry, but how is this helpful? At least give a reason why not to/to.

[IMarques]

I'm sorry, but how is this helpful? At least give a reason why not to/to.

Under the gruff delivery, Lemnear actually gave the exact reason -- "How is drawing four cards better than killing your opponent?"

Let's spell it out, though. Regal Force is a bit of fat attached to some card draw. Most importantly, for our purposes, it's fat that requires a board state. So if you're going to play it and have it make an impact you need some dudes on board. But if you're going to do that, why not just Craterhoof and win? Alternatively, you could use it to fuel your hand further after playing a bunch of dudes. But Glimpse of Nature does the same thing for much cheaper and can ultimately draw you a lot more cards.

So the question then becomes what is this doing that we can't do and does it solve The Problem(s). The answer is no. It doesn't add anything new and it doesn't improve our match-up against either Miracles or fast combo. Regal Force is part of the danger of cute cards. You're durdling when you could be winning. Legacy is not a good format for durdling.

Ross Merriman wasn't the first to say this, but his article has one of the best explanations. You should read it: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29713_The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Elves.html if you haven't.

So now I turn the question back on you. Why is this card helpful to you? Maybe I'm missing something?


Afaik I'm older than Julian, so this is irritating. (Yes this is a Quiz)

We older people are occasionally irritating. That being said, I've realized that I'm terrible at figuring out how old people are from their age, particularly Europeans. How old is Julian/are you? No clue. Early-to-mid 30's, tops?

Fun fact: I made fun of my wife's age the first time we met. It turns she was not in fact in high school and was in fact older than me. Awkward...

[Brentane]

Under the gruff delivery, Lemnear actually gave the exact reason -- "How is drawing four cards better than killing your opponent?"

Let's spell it out, though. Regal Force is a bit of fat attached to some card draw. Most importantly, for our purposes, it's fat that requires a board state. So if you're going to play it and have it make an impact you need some dudes on board. But if you're going to do that, why not just Craterhoof and win? Alternatively, you could use it to fuel your hand further after playing a bunch of dudes. But Glimpse of Nature does the same thing for much cheaper and can ultimately draw you a lot more cards.

So the question then becomes what is this doing that we can't do and does it solve The Problem(s). The answer is no. It doesn't add anything new and it doesn't improve our match-up against either Miracles or fast combo. Regal Force is part of the danger of cute cards. You're durdling when you could be winning. Legacy is not a good format for durdling.

Ross Merriman wasn't the first to say this, but his article has one of the best explanations. You should read it: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29713_The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Elves.html if you haven't.

So now I turn the question back on you. Why is this card helpful to you? Maybe I'm missing something?



We older people are occasionally irritating. That being said, I've realized that I'm terrible at figuring out how old people are from their age, particularly Europeans. How old is Julian/are you? No clue. Early-to-mid 30's, tops?

Fun fact: I made fun of my wife's age the first time we met. It turns she was not in fact in high school and was in fact older than me. Awkward...

Thank you for that explanation. I'm sorry I did not understand clearly in Lemnear's words. I can see what you guys mean now.

[dte]

So the question then becomes what is this doing that we can't do and does it solve The Problem(s). The answer is no. It doesn't add anything new and it doesn't improve our match-up against either Miracles or fast combo. Regal Force is part of the danger of cute cards. You're durdling when you could be winning. Legacy is not a good format for durdling.

Ross Merriman wasn't the first to say this, but his article has one of the best explanations. You should read it: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29713_The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Elves.html if you haven't..

I have to disagree here.

I reread Ross article because I didn't remember him saying anything against Regal Force. The only time he speaks about it was to say that before NO-hoof, Elves decks were not as good as now because Regal is quite expensive as a draw engine, and that this changed with Matt Nass list:

"The deck in general was over-reliant on Glimpse of Nature and had little recourse when deprived of resources because its secondary card advantage engine, Regal Force, was so expensive.

The version of Elves that has risen to be a top contender had its genesis at Grand Prix Denver in the first week of 2013. Matt Nass, already an established Elves master, made top 8 with a list that used Natural Order and Craterhoof Behemoth that created a new avenue to victory, importantly one that was effective with a relatively small board of a few elves and a few lands."

Matt Nass deck did play 1 hoof and 1 Regal. Regal was not good enough to justify running NO alone, but once you play NO, we can also cheat out Regal.

I always played a 1:1 split and keep track on when this fact prevented me to win while running 2 hoofs will have allow the victory, and when I won with Regal a game I will not have without.
And the record is clearly favoring the split. The only way for the split to be worse than the 2 hoofs is when you naturally draw the hoof, have a NO, and not enough mana to cast hoof. Most often in these cases, NO => Regal give you the board position to win and/or the mana to cast hoof.

And when is the split better? Most of the time when your kill is not NO but GSZ. Because 7G is easier to cast than 8G, and because your elves are very often tapped at this point. Regal make your GSZ way much better as kills. Really.

Regal is also better against an ensnaring bridge or a glacial chasm (ok, fringe argument here). It is also good to put on a S&T while hoof is bad.



It doesn't add anything new and it doesn't improve our match-up against either Miracles or fast combo.

Against Miracle you do not want to have 2 hoofs in your deck after SB. Against fast combo I favor Ruric vs storm and Regal vs S&T, when do you prefer to have 2 hoofs than a split?

[Lemnear]

Under the gruff delivery, Lemnear actually gave the exact reason -- "How is drawing four cards better than killing your opponent?"

Let's spell it out, though. Regal Force is a bit of fat attached to some card draw. Most importantly, for our purposes, it's fat that requires a board state. So if you're going to play it and have it make an impact you need some dudes on board. But if you're going to do that, why not just Craterhoof and win? Alternatively, you could use it to fuel your hand further after playing a bunch of dudes. But Glimpse of Nature does the same thing for much cheaper and can ultimately draw you a lot more cards.

So the question then becomes what is this doing that we can't do and does it solve The Problem(s). The answer is no. It doesn't add anything new and it doesn't improve our match-up against either Miracles or fast combo. Regal Force is part of the danger of cute cards. You're durdling when you could be winning. Legacy is not a good format for durdling.

Ross Merriman wasn't the first to say this, but his article has one of the best explanations. You should read it: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29713_The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Elves.html if you haven't.

So now I turn the question back on you. Why is this card helpful to you? Maybe I'm missing something?



We older people are occasionally irritating. That being said, I've realized that I'm terrible at figuring out how old people are from their age, particularly Europeans. How old is Julian/are you? No clue. Early-to-mid 30's, tops?

Fun fact: I made fun of my wife's age the first time we met. It turns she was not in fact in high school and was in fact older than me. Awkward...

Thanks for picking up the mic and explain the issue more detailed than I was in the mood to ... mainly because this is one of the more annoying (at least for me) and repeating topics we got covered many times in the thread, several articles and (potentially) even in the OP. Aside from that, I think the comparing math between Hoof and Regal in situations of 1/2/3/4 additional creatures in terms of damage vs. Carddraw is pretty compelling.

Maybe it's simply because the "why do we not run x" discussion in general is extremely exhausting over the years (looking at Goblin War Strike/Thoughtseize/Diminishing Returns in Storm for example). Forgive this old grump ;)

Topic: Being old
I have the age of 29/30 in my head for Julian (can not remember where I heared it), while I'm in my 30's

[dte]

Thanks for picking up the mic and explain the issue more detailed than I was in the mood to ... mainly because this is one of the more annoying (at least for me) and repeating topics we got covered many times in the thread, several articles and (potentially) even in the OP. Aside from that, I think the comparing math between Hoof and Regal in situations of 1/2/3/4 additional creatures in terms of damage vs. Carddraw is pretty compelling.

Maybe it's simply because the "why do we not run x" discussion in general is extremely exhausting over the years (looking at Goblin War Strike/Thoughtseize/Diminishing Returns in Storm for example). Forgive this old grump ;)

The problem is that the question is not hoof vs Regal. I do not think anybody ever raised the question to put hoof out.
It is about the second hoof over the first Regal in a deck which play 8 tutors for them.

So your comparison with a wishboard in TES is irrelevant, or more similar to a "should we put a void snare and a PiF or 2 PiFs?".
(ok here I'm not totally fair and a bit exaggerating, but I guess you see my point).

So I think the consideration is more about the frequency of "I draw my only hoof and NO => Regal does not get there" vs the one of "I cannot GSZ into lethal hoof but I can into a lethal Regal".
And honestly the first one is not as often as you think, because Regal goes there most of the time.

[Julian23]

Just came home from one of our local Legacy events. It was just 5 rounds + Top8 but Elves took down 1st, 2nd and 3rd place! :cool: #LlanowarCalling

[Lemnear]

The problem is that the question is not hoof vs Regal. I do not think anybody ever raised the question to put hoof out.
It is about the second hoof over the first Regal in a deck which play 8 tutors for them.

So your comparison with a wishboard in TES is irrelevant, or more similar to a "should we put a void snare and a PiF or 2 PiFs?".
(ok here I'm not totally fair and a bit exaggerating, but I guess you see my point).

So I think the consideration is more about the frequency of "I draw my only hoof and NO => Regal does not get there" vs the one of "I cannot GSZ into lethal hoof but I can into a lethal Regal".
And honestly the first one is not as often as you think, because Regal goes there most of the time.

What is a "lethal Regal"? You spend 4-8 mana to get it into play. How many mana do you expect to have left to turn the drawn cards into something that kills NOW? Spending that much mana for nothing threatening like MAYBE drawing 3-4 cards is my Definition of durdling.

Mind that we didn't even scratch the value of several Hoofs against Grafdiggers Cage or Containment Priest

[Snickelfritz]

So I think the consideration is more about the frequency of "I draw my only hoof and NO => Regal does not get there" vs the one of "I cannot GSZ into lethal hoof but I can into a lethal Regal".
And honestly the first one is not as often as you think, because Regal goes there most of the time.
Regal can never be actual lethal though, you just have to rely on drawing into something that does give you the win. Granted, if you're able to GSZ into him you'll probably draw enough cards to find something, but that's far from guaranteed.

Personally, I like a Ruric Thar maindeck in that slot. It helps to boost game one against some of the worst matchups (particularly Storm), and it's not bad against anyone. You can find him with GSZ at 6G, which is even easier than Regal at 7G, and he's an excellent target to go for when you have a hand that can cast NO on turn two (probably second only to Progenitus).

[starfox444]

Aside from that, I think the comparing math between Hoof and Regal in situations of 1/2/3/4 additional creatures in terms of damage vs. Carddraw is pretty compelling.


This was always the most compelling way to look at it for me. If you want something in between, where you can't quite GSZ for hoof but need to try and take the initiative rather than wait, look to WRP or visionary.

[Lemnear]

This was always the most compelling way to look at it for me. If you want something in between, where you can't quite GSZ for hoof but need to try and take the initiative rather than wait, look to WRP or visionary.

Pretty funny fact: WRP also delivers a 5/5 Body like Regal Force and creates cardadvantage as well.

[Echelon]

Meh, I still rock a Regal in the MB. Mostly b/c I'm too lazy to get a second Craterhoof. Also, in most games I tend to board it out in favor of WRP/Progenitus/Ruric Thar anyway. 2 NO targets in my 60 is plenty in any game.

Also, @Lemnear: The CA from WRP is mostly virtual. Even with the full Birchlore + Heritage package, I don't always have the mana to immediately pump out a token.

[Brentane]

Is Elves still a tier 1 deck and still a 'Deck to Beat'? I've been finding Elves still extremely strong in the meta and am wondering why it hasn't been top 8'ing in recent tournaments such as SCG Open: Las Vegas. I mean I still have my Elves winning more matches than my U-OmniTell deck. Is it just not popular in specific areas? Is there a hate card out there that just shuts us down which I am out of the loop with? Any reasons from the community?

[Echelon]

Have a look at the Decks to Beat section ;).

Even though TC is banned, the meta is still quite hostile to Elves. A couple of weeks back at my legacy monthly I faced Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest in 3 of my 4 rounds together with an opponent playing ANT.

The MU's were Maverick, UWR Delver, ANT, UWR Delver-piloted-by-our-local-former-GP-champion.

Even though the day started out pretty well (2-1 vs. Maverick and 2-0 vs. the first UWR Delver dude) I ended the day on 2-2.

[Lemnear]

Meh, I still rock a Regal in the MB. Mostly b/c I'm too lazy to get a second Craterhoof. Also, in most games I tend to board it out in favor of WRP/Progenitus/Ruric Thar anyway. 2 NO targets in my 60 is plenty in any game.

Also, @Lemnear: The CA from WRP is mostly virtual. Even with the full Birchlore + Heritage package, I don't always have the mana to immediately pump out a token.

You board Regal out in most games because WRP, Ruric, etc. are better anyways, but still keep it Maindeck? Just doesn't make sense. Also GSZ'ing for WRP is 5 mana; Regal is 8 mana; for me that's exactly the difference to make a 2/2 Deathtouch Wolf for immediate defense.

[Echelon]

You board Regal out in most games because WRP, Ruric, etc. are better anyways, but still keep it Maindeck?

Yup. If I had 2 Craterhoofs in the MB, I'd board out a Craterhoof instead. So that doesn't really make a difference. I could just as well have run a Squire in that slot (or whatever may have floated my boat at that time) :smile:.

In games 2 and 3 it doesn't matter whether I took out the Regal or the Craterhoof that occupied the same slot :smile:. The only time that it actually matters it is when, during G1, you draw into your lonely Craterhoof and can't cast the silly bugger. On the other hand, just casting the NO and looking at your opponent with your "I've got you"-face is often enough to get your opponent to extend his/her hand/scoop anyway, lol.

Sure, worst case scenario, your opponent wants to see the Craterhoof (and rightfully so) and you pop in the Regal instead. No kill there. So what? You draw a couple of cards and kill your opponent the next turn, in this scenario you have the Hoof in hand already. And during G1 your opponent doesn't have acces to the hate he'd need to stop you so you're rather safe at this point. The chances of your opponent running sweepers MD are fairly low (unless you're facing Miracles, obviously).

[Lemnear]

Yup. If I had 2 Craterhoofs in the MB, I'd board out a Craterhoof instead. So that doesn't really make a difference. I could just as well have run a Squire in that slot (or whatever may have floated my boat at that time) :smile:.

In games 2 and 3 it doesn't matter whether I took out the Regal or the Craterhoof that occupied the same slot :smile:. The only time that it actually matters it is when, during G1, you draw into your lonely Craterhoof and can't cast the silly bugger. On the other hand, just casting the NO and looking at your opponent with your "I've got you"-face is often enough to get your opponent to extend his/her hand/scoop anyway, lol.

Sure, worst case scenario, your opponent wants to see the Craterhoof (and rightfully so) and you pop in the Regal instead. No kill there. So what? You draw a couple of cards and kill your opponent the next turn, in this scenario you have the Hoof in hand already. And during G1 your opponent doesn't have acces to the hate he'd need to stop you so you're rather safe at this point. The chances of your opponent running sweepers MD are fairly low (unless you're facing Miracles, obviously).

It makes a difference once you play against Grafdiggers Cage and Containment Priest as I said earlier, so it DOES matter. If your opponent wants to see the Hoof, which is near guaranteed, and you only pop the Regal, your opponent laughs, untaps, sweeps the board with Terminus/Deluge/Verdict/Emrakul or kills you with something like Tendrils. Brilliant!

There is no compelling reason to run Regal.

[Echelon]

It makes a difference once you play against Grafdiggers Cage and Containment Priest as I said earlier, so it DOES matter. If your opponent wants to see the Hoof, which is near guaranteed, and you only pop the Regal, your opponent laughs, untaps, sweeps the board with Terminus/Deluge/Verdict/Emrakul or kills you with something like Tendrils. Brilliant!

There is no compelling reason to run Regal.

And when do we see Grafdiggers Cage/Containment Priest..? Games 2 and ..? Also, once those cards hit the field it doesn't matter if you have a Hoof or a Regal (or Ruric Thar/Progenitus) in your library... So there's that...

Also, assuming your opponent has the sweeper/win in G1 every single time that the corner case we're discussing comes up (which is what, once every 8 to 10 games at best?) is very unlike you. I was expecting something a bit more nuanced.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to running 2 Craterhoofs instead of a 1-1 configuration, but it really only matters in game 1. Against the bigger part of the decks you name, you board in Progenitus/WRP/Ruric Thar anyway at the cost of one of your NO targets.

[Snickelfritz]

Also, assuming your opponent has the sweeper/win in G1 every single time that the corner case we're discussing comes up (which is what, once every 8 to 10 games at best?) is very unlike you. I was expecting something a bit more nuanced.



I agree that saying your opponent is always going to have the answer is unlikely, but every time you're actually playing the game in that scenario, you do kind of have to assume that they're going to have it.

[Echelon]

Meh, no guts, no glory!

[MD.Ghost]

For me (besides the old days with Regal and Glimpse-Chains) it seems clear: Most (Pro)Players will tend to use double Hoof to prevent some corner cases (one Hoof gets discarded/countered or sits in hand with Natural Order) - Game 1 hate like Priest or Cage are very uncommon, if you are unlucky you will face an Aven Mindcensor but nothing more. The question is (besides netdecking the "pro lists"), do the corner cases force everyone to reserve one more slot for the hoof-kill.

I personally only use 1 Hoof since the printing of Ruric (my 2nd big one for NO) and it feels totally right for my playstyle. I want to beat Combo Game 1 (another corner case), so i outweight the corner cases in which Ruric shines and in which i need a 2nd Hoof or lose the game. Remember that the ugly Ogre is also usefull in other matchups (legacy is full of cheap spells, angry delvers, terminus etc.). Compared to Regal, the Ogre has a better body (and reach) and will work (and possibly win) on its own - so you don't need a bunch of dudes, because if you have a bunch of dudes a quick Hoof-Kill seems always the best idea.

Game 2 and 3 are different: first of the 2nd Hoof sometimes get cutted anyway for another target (or you better bet do not get harmed by drawing a fatty which tends to strand in your hand) and the bigger challenge awaits you with the grindy battle against Hate-Pieces, more (mass) removal etc. From my experience, most regional players here know how to play against elves and will be prepared, so it will not work to plan for easy mode Natural Order into (Progenitus etc.) win. Europa players also like Miracle a lot more, so you will face this (not so good) matchup more often (nice practise :wink: ) and Combo seems also more popular (especially if you visit Berlin!)

Conclusion: I understand the discussion of a 2nd NO Target besides the common 2nd Hoof, but it seems that Regal Force isn't the right direction (as lemnear and others already mentioned). My maindeck also fits in Ooze and WRP, so i can play a very flexible game with maximum profit from Zenith and Natural Order. But it seems a question of playstyle, for me it works.

[Lemnear]

It's really not about running two or just one Hoof game 1. It's about Regal adding nothing to your regular gameplan in either game and that you really want to go up with the number of naturally drawn fatties against Cage & Priest in postboard games

[Echelon]

It does advance your gameplan (in the sense that it's a creature that can smash face at some point in time), however not as much as Craterhoof does (since, you know, Hoof = kill in most cases). In that regard I fully agree with you.

That being said, it still doesn't change the fact that I'm too lazy to get a second Hoof but when I lose because of that, I tend to take it like a man. Sitting in a corner, weeping silently!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Although I know that it is slow, I'm thinking of trying Ezuri in the deck. There are lots of decks just picking off our dudes and while Ezuri can't easily protect himself, I frequently find myself wishing I could have my opponent focusing on something other than my combo pieces.

[Zombie]

Although I know that it is slow, I'm thinking of trying Ezuri in the deck. There are lots of decks just picking off our dudes and while Ezuri can't easily protect himself, I frequently find myself wishing I could have my opponent focusing on something other than my combo pieces.

WRP is better for that. Ezuri can't protect himself, and needs a bunch of mana to do broken things. WRP's 4 cost 5/5 body is really resilient to nonwhite removal, is very useful in combat by itself (unlike Ezuri's), and if you have mana to sink into it, the token spam just gives good value or just takes over fair gamestates like nobody's business. It's even better if you have Cradle because Cradle and WRP feed off each other and start doing broken things.

Ezuri also needs you to have stuff on the field to do stuff. WRP doesn't. She makes stuff for you.

[Arianeira]

@Julian23
Thank you for uploading the videos they are great. How do you play Mario Kart 8 between rounds on PC? Is there a Wii U emulator for PC I don't know about?

@Regal Force
Regal force has not been worth it for a long time. Hoof just wins the game if you have enough elves. If you don't have enough elves just wait a turn unless you are facing Storm where you Natural Order for Ruric ASAP. Still running 2 Craterhoof and 1 Ruric Thar as my Natural Order Targets.

@Wren's Run Packmaster
I cut Wren's Run Packmaster for the 4th Natural Order during the Treasure Cruise era have have not added it back yet. Considering adding WRP back.

@Ezuri
Dies to Bolt and removal. So you effectively have to have 9 Mana when Green sun's for him to activate immediately Wait I can Green Sun for Craterhoof for that much mana.

[lordofthepit]

Some of Seattle-area players have been starting a video series spotlighting various decks as a hybrid deck tech/versus video series. The most recent episode features our Author of Argoth, danyul: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFCw-Dy3FuRayDkyMAq7fM3W9_D9M4X0x

Enjoy!

[haganbmj]

@Wren's Run Packmaster
I cut Wren's Run Packmaster for the 4th Natural Order during the Treasure Cruise era have have not added it back yet. Considering adding WRP back.

Yeah that's the switch I made now that we're back to something similar to pre Treasure Cruise. It's been good so far, but I'm starting to feel like running Scavenging Ooze, Reclamation Sage, and Wren's Run Packmaster is more than I want to do right now so it feels like one of them needs to go (which I think is Ooze).

[Julian23]

Some of Seattle-area players have been starting a video series spotlighting various decks as a hybrid deck tech/versus video series. The most recent episode features our Author of Argoth, danyul: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFCw-Dy3FuRayDkyMAq7fM3W9_D9M4X0x

Enjoy!

Really loved the videos, especially for the Great Dan N. (say it oud loud, it rhymes!)

Also good to see that I'm not the only one talking all the way through both players' turns :cool: Would be great to have them available in non-potatoe resolution though :wink:

[starfox444]

Some of Seattle-area players have been starting a video series spotlighting various decks as a hybrid deck tech/versus video series. The most recent episode features our Author of Argoth, danyul: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFCw-Dy3FuRayDkyMAq7fM3W9_D9M4X0x

Enjoy!

He lived the dream! The one thing I have yet to do is hard cast operation hydra. Thanks for the videos :smile:

[Lemnear]

Dan, did I lost your number or did you get famous?

[Julian23]

Dan was famous long before it was the thing to do.

[danyul]

Lol you guys are silly. We filmed those videos months ago. I totally forgot. There are episodes with Phazonmutant and Lordofthepit as well! Anyways I hope those weren't too painful to watch. We may film some again soon? #TeamGreen

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

@dan Painful for you; fun for us. Very nice. If only the rest of us looked so good on camera.

@julian Looks like your site is down, brother. Also, they're talking about you on the R/G lands thread.

p.s., By the way, have I said today that "I hate lands." That is one ugly deck. But Dice_Box did one fine job on the primer. (He's now added quite a detailed section on how to beat us.)

[Julian23]

4-0'ed the Legacy Daily Event with BUG dELVESr:

2-0 vs Team America
2-0 vs OmniTell
2-0 vs Grixis Midrange
2-0 vs UWr Delver

Deck did well and defeated what it was meant to defeat for the most part. The current configuration is rather soft on sb slots for BUG Delver and fair decks; but who are we kidding? Especially the later ones aren't very present on Magic Online in the first place. Which leads me to another thing: there is some insane MODO-metagaming going on in this sideboard. Grixis Midrange is about everywhere and seriously looking to kick Miracles from the throne it has been rotting on for way over a year.

http://i.imgur.com/oHudTpJ.png

[sdematt]

Have the Grixis Midrange decks been doing well during the Dailies?

-Matt

[Julian23]

That's what I mean with dethroning Miracles. Mtggoldfish only keeps tracks of the decks that cash the Daily Events; they don't provide a metagame overview.

For the last >1 years, Miracles has always been the most cashing deck on Magic Online. As of right now, Miracles is at 12% with Grixis Midrange ("Grixis Pyromancer") at 8% and Girxis Delver at 5%.

[starfox444]

That's what I mean with dethroning Miracles. Mtggoldfish only keeps tracks of the decks that cash the Daily Events; they don't provide a metagame overview.

For the last >1 years, Miracles has always been the most cashing deck on Magic Online. As of right now, Miracles is at 12% with Grixis Midrange ("Grixis Pyromancer") at 8% and Girxis Delver at 5%.

Yeah, I've been playing against it a lot lately. What's the corresponding thread on here? I've found the grixis midrange matchup to be close but fine, but haven't played much against delver.

In the midrange matchups I found they were really sweet at getting all the 1 for 1s they want, but they struggle to present a clock at the same time. The only time I was ever scared was a tasigur.

[Julian23]

Sultai Elves continues its unstoppable march. Currently 14-0 in games with it. Thus far I faced in this Daily:

R1: Infect, 2-0
R2: SneakShow, 2-0
R3: Miracles, 2-0

Note that I don't bring in Flusterstorm vs Miracles, there seems to just be no room. But maybe that's wrong. I'm currently siding out 4 NO, 2 Glimpse, 2 Quirion Rangers, 1 Nettle Sentinel and 1 Heritage Druid vs Miracles.

http://i.imgur.com/hSQrvYt.png

[Togores]

Dont understand why you call it sultai. Its ok, you run blue, but only sb. If you would run it main like the japanese list with 2 brainstorm I would understand it. But makes no sense to me.
Just a thing I think.

[Julian23]

I think we officially settled on Team Tanzania.

[Absolutflipz]

I think we officially settled on Team Tanzania.


Are you just winning all your games vs Miracles based on a timely-resolved Choke?

I'm not sure I understand taking out all 4 NO and 2 Glimpse. Especially when Glimpse is much easier blanked by way of CB/Top and Terminus, and NO is easier to get through and can still win/steal games.

The deck seems pretty anemic to me when you remove 6 of 8 big-business spells. And really going on the reactive side seems tough against a deck that can find what it needs so easily.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences, though. Are you getting lucky with landing Choke or are you finding this sideboarding has really lead to more post-board wins?

Null Rod, Needle, Chokes, Library and Decays are boarded in for those 10 I assume.

[starfox444]

The deck seems pretty anemic to me when you remove 6 of 8 big-business spells. And really going on the reactive side seems tough against a deck that can find what it needs so easily.

It's not about becoming reactive against miracles, it's that they have so many trumps to your most powerful and cost intensive spells that it becomes extremely risky to cast them. The only reactive card you bring in normally is abrupt decay because counter-balance just blanks like half the deck. Lately I keep in 1-2 NO just to counter entreat, but I think that reasoning is wrong as well.

Julian's previous post was about him drinking the mtgo haterade as much as possible. You'd have to get a direct reply out of him as I can not be bothered playing dailies given the new schedule. Maybe if you're lucky he can get a set in with someone from team euroswag with this SB and see how it goes.

[MadRhetoric17]

that I don't bring in Flusterstorm vs Miracles, there seems to just be no room. But maybe that's wrong. I'm currently siding out 4 NO, 2 Glimpse, 2 Quirion Rangers, 1 Nettle Sentinel and 1 Heritage Druid vs Miracles.


I'm shocked to hear you take out two Quirion Rangers. In my mind, the perfect board against Miracles is a Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Dryad Arbor and Pendelhaven. That way I'm attacking for 4 and can only lose one creature to Terminus. And I find Miracles StP'ing a Dryad Arbor really hinders me since the threat of EoT fetch a body is relevant surprisingly often. Would love to hear your thoughts.

[Echelon]

So... Elves! is big in Japan, or so it seems...

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-deck/elves-big-magic-open-legacy-2015-03-03

In light of recent discussion, I did lol hard when I saw the Regal Force in the MB. I don't want to stir up the discussion again, but it's pretty funny.

[Zombie]

The deck seems pretty anemic to me when you remove 6 of 8 big-business spells. And really going on the reactive side seems tough against a deck that can find what it needs so easily.

You don't win vs. Miracles by casting bombs. You win vs. them by drawing cards and keeping a clock on the board. This is why fetchlands+Arbor and Pendelhaven are amazing in the matchup, for example.

[Lans89]

So... Elves! is big in Japan, or so it seems...

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-deck/elves-big-magic-open-legacy-2015-03-03

In light of recent discussion, I did lol hard when I saw the Regal Force in the MB. I don't want to stir up the discussion again, but it's pretty funny.

And what about all the Tasigur's I see lately, anyone tried/or please explain?? I also see less and less Progenitus, but I think we need it vs BUG decks! And should i buy a pack master? It must be rly funny to have on board, but I can't find the room while I still play a Ruric in the main...

@Julian: Your sideboard and side boarding plans seem to have changed drastically since I last checked! Are you planning to use the same configuration in paper magic? Or is it just a online meta call (I don't play online so don't rly know). Ps: Jamie can't go to Rome and I'm looking for people to join.. Any Tips ^_^?!

[Echelon]

Well... Tasigur isn't an Elf, isn't green, doesn't advance our gameplan as directly as Craterhoof does and we don't put many cards in our graveyard quickly so why would we want to play it?

WRP works fine vs. BUG (which is already a pretty good MU in my experience). It's a good way to pull yourself ahead when both in topdeck mode and leaves you with at least 1 creature after a sweeper.

[Lans89]

Well... Tasigur isn't an Elf, isn't green, doesn't advance our gameplan as directly as Craterhoof does and we don't put many cards in our graveyard quickly so why would we want to play it?

WRP works fine vs. BUG (which is already a pretty good MU in my experience). It's a good way to pull yourself ahead when both in topdeck mode and leaves you with at least 1 creature after a sweeper.

About Tasigur, yeah that's why I ask. Is it a decklist typo? No I guess? I've seen it many times but it looks bad to me aswell ;)! So we agree on that..

I guess I could use WRP in a fair meta instead of Ruric, but in an open field (let's say Lille) I have to rely on Ruric I guess =)

[Togores]

I dont think is a typo. Its a good card vs delver decks and atrition matches. Big beater getting adavantage And stoping goyf mungo and bolt proof.

[Echelon]

You just have to be incredibly lucky to draw into it, seeing it's only a 1-off.

To get it reliably you'd at least have to run a Fierce Empath somewhere in the 75 so you can GSZ for it. With an Empath and 4 GSZ you'll effectively run 6 copies of it.

[Julian23]

You just have to be incredibly lucky to draw into it, seeing it's only a 1-off.

I don't have a lot of time to reply, but this is one of the most devastating assumptions about why not to run a card that has been haunting deckbuilding for ages.

[Togores]

I don't have a lot of time to reply, but this is one of the most devastating assumptions about why not to run a card that has been haunting deckbuilding for ages.

Same^

Elfs usualy only runs ome choke sometimes. You have to be lucky to draw into it. May be you can play a savanah and a academy rector to search for it.

[Echelon]

I don't have a lot of time to reply, but this is one of the most devastating assumptions about why not to run a card that has been haunting deckbuilding for ages.

It's the principle on which the deck only ran 1 Craterhoof/Progenitus for a very long time (back in the day) so there's that. Also, sideboard slots are scarce so when filling them I like to maximize my odds of finding that card I decided to be good enough to board in instead of yelling YOLO and praying to Titania I'll have it.

I want to be as certain as possible that I'll get a nice bang for my buck, sue me.

[Lemnear]

Tasigur is basically just a random life insurance against sweepers like Deluge or a shitload of burn, so you can YOLO that Bastard for a Minimum of mana into play and ride. For me: a fat-ass Version of Ooze

[starfox444]

I love Japanese lists. So much insanity.

Their top 64 is ridiculous http://www.sanc.jp/bmo03/legacy/17.html

[IMarques]

I love Japanese lists. So much insanity.

Their top 64 is ridiculous http://www.sanc.jp/bmo03/legacy/17.html

This.

As much as I want to touch the Regal Force debate again, I will refrain.

Out of curiosity, does Taisugar work for people? I thought about including it for the Burn match-up, but I feel like in the situations where I would play it (i.e. my yard is littered with dead elves), I would almost rather play Scavenging Ooze. Having to fiddle with the mana to make it relevant/protect it is a bit of a pain, though. Also, does the activated ability on this guy ever come up or is he just a body?

[Absolutflipz]

This.

As much as I want to touch the Regal Force debate again, I will refrain.

Out of curiosity, does Taisugar work for people? I thought about including it for the Burn match-up, but I feel like in the situations where I would play it (i.e. my yard is littered with dead elves), I would almost rather play Scavenging Ooze. Having to fiddle with the mana to make it relevant/protect it is a bit of a pain, though. Also, does the activated ability on this guy ever come up or is he just a body?

While Tasigur is new and cool and all...I don't see how it ever gets into the deck before Wren's Run Packmaster.

[shopshopshop]

The next time I play Elves at a weekly I'm going to test out some number/combination of Tasigur + Gurmag Angler for a beatdown plan against Delver decks. It will be fun if nothing else.

[Tormod]

Rationale for Tasigur:

*Easy to play around counterbalance
*Dodges Engineered plague on elves
*Dodges Perish
*Provides card advantage for xxgg as a poly ability.

So basically, tasigur is good because he's not an elf and dodges the cards opposents tend to bring in against elves.

Is it correct to play? I dunno, but I see the rationale for it

[Julian23]

I split the top3 of the Big Legacy Trial of Milano Eternal with 2 friends.

R1: 2-0 vs 4c Delver
R2: 2-1 vs Miracles
R3: 2-0 vs UWr MentorBlade
R4: 2-1 vs BUG Delver
R5: ID
R6: ID
Quarters: 2-1 vs 4c Punishing Maverick (he Slaughter Games me for NO, In untap into Behemoth :P)
Semis: It's clear that my friends and I will be #1-3 so we split and just play for the Byes. I lose 0-2 to TES.

Fun for tournament, Choke has been really insane for me this far. I kind of really want Tasigur but idk, I should rather add sth vs Storm because Flusterstorm is pretty terrible vs Storm (but stellar vs Show and Tell) which is much heavier represented.

[.Ix]

This must be a forum record. Tasigur went from instantly dismissed to actually ok in like 3 pages.

[iosmacman]

I have a lot of dredge in my meta manaless and mana . What would be the best sideboard options to help combat them?

[Lemnear]

This must be a forum record. Tasigur went from instantly dismissed to actually ok in like 3 pages.

Slow three pages. For me this is the simple Treasure Cruise effect of people squeezing the card into anything that doesn't use the graveyard otherwise. The joke is that Elves primary nemesis Miracles puts the Elves removed rarely to the graveyard anyways, leaving you with the already favorable midrange decks where Tasigur might shines. It's not that the card is particular good against Lands or Jund either.

[Julian23]

I placed 19th with a record of 6-2 at the Milano Eternal yesterday. Matchup were kinda unfortunately as I never got to use my Chokes, but that's the Price you pay for hating so hard on the UWr and Grixis decks.

R1: Jund, 2:1 Win
R2: Dragon Stompy, 2:0 Win
R3: Burn, 2:1 Win
R4: BUG Delver, 1:2 Loss
R5: SneakShow, 2:0 Win
R6: SneakShow, 1:2 Loss
R7: Infect, 2:1 Win
R8: Dredge, 2:1 Win including decking him in g1 :-)))

Might write some more on the matches once I get home as I'm typing this on my bell phone.

[Lemnear]

As much as I want to touch the Regal Force debate again, I will refrain.

Don't hold yourself back. The problem with the topic so far was that no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target. If you have scenarios, ideas or pure opinions in your head, feel free to write them down for share. I don't bite unless I read something really questionable like "More Hoofs are pointless, because no one plays Containment Priest/Grafdiggers Cage or non-creature-counters anyways" ;D

Happy sunday, everyone!

[comeback]

Julian I'm the elves player close to you in your round 5.

I didn't played a "sultai" list but I opted for a sort of "denial" with 2 Blood Moon & 1 Choke with the following side:
:1: Choke
:2: Blood Moon
:1: Pithing Needle
:1: Sylvan Library
:4: Abrupt Decay
:2: Cabal Therapy
:3: Thoughtseize
:1: Surgical Extraction

My MUs:
R1 SmallPox 2-0
R2 TinFins 0-2
R3 MUD 2-0
R4 Sneak Attack 0-2
R5 Sneak Attack 2-0 ---> game1 dice won t3 combo no fow game2 opponent mulligan to 5
R6 Miracles 1-1
R7 Bug Cascade 1-2 ---> game2 & game3 very unlucky with 4-5 lands drew in a row

My general comment is that in current meta I'm used to have 2-3 MU in a 6-7 round tournament in which we can win the first game only if we are lucky and in the second and third game we have to draw at least 2 sideboard cards in the first 3-4 turn, any thoughts?

[IMarques]

Slow three pages. For me this is the simple Treasure Cruise effect of people squeezing the card into anything that doesn't use the graveyard otherwise. The joke is that Elves primary nemesis Miracles puts the Elves removed rarely to the graveyard anyways, leaving you with the already favorable midrange decks where Tasigur might shines. It's not that the card is particular good against Lands or Jund either.

Agreed. I'm not sure how we "agreed" that the banana man is good, though. In general, I'm open to new cards and ideas if they add something to the deck. As I have not played with or against Tasigur, I figured I would ask. That being said, if its not helping in Miracles or fast combo, then I'm not so interested. I didn't think it would be helpful, but I figured I might be missing something.


Don't hold yourself back. The problem with the topic so far was that no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target. If you have scenarios, ideas or pure opinions in your head, feel free to write them down for share. I don't bite unless I read something really questionable like "More Hoofs are pointless, because no one plays Containment Priest/Grafdiggers Cage or non-creature-counters anyways" ;D

Happy sunday, everyone!

Heh, you and I agreed on this one. The tl;dr was: Thou shalt not durdle! 'Ware the danger of cute things!

It amazes me that people want to salt their organic combo decks with durdely additives.

[Echelon]

It amazes me that people want to salt their organic combo decks with durdely additives.

Simple. Durdling is awesome!

[dte]

Don't hold yourself back. The problem with the topic so far was that no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target. If you have scenarios, ideas or pure opinions in your head, feel free to write them down for share. I don't bite unless I read something really questionable like "More Hoofs are pointless, because no one plays Containment Priest/Grafdiggers Cage or non-creature-counters anyways" ;D

Happy sunday, everyone!


So as I play the MD split of 1 hoof/1 Regal/ 1 Ruric/1WRP (no target in SB, I do not see that many MUs in which these are overclassed enough by proge, wurm to make them worthwile), I will try to defent the slot of Regal here over the 2nd hoof slot.

As a NO target, Hoof is almost always way better than Regal and is by far the primary target as, as pointed out by everyone, it wins the game.
The cases you have both hoof and NO in hand are clearly the ones where 2 hoof > split. Nevertheless, NO in Regal in these situation is very close to a win vs most non-combo decks. Vs storm you have Ruric. Vs S&T/elves, you fetch Regal, hoping to draw enough gas to cast hoof, but you wish you had 2 hoofs.

As a GSZ target or as a natural draw, however, it happens quite often that either you cannot reach the 9 manas for hoof but only 8, or that you should tap all your non-sick creatures to heritage to generate the mana. In both cases, having the hoof/Regal split is stellar. Usually what you draw there is enough to win in the following turn.

[Echelon]

I fear you're not quite making the case you think you are.

[Shagstaman]

that is a lot of fatties md...are you cutting lands? elves? I don't hate the toolbox feel, but I do hate diluting the core of the deck even if it's only by 2 cards.

core elf mens like q.ranger, drs, nettle, wws, and visionary can't go below 4. Normally I could see shaving a NO, but since you have all those 1-of fatties that seems terrible.. shaving on glimpse sounds blasphemous but I'd do that before anything else if you absolutely sold yourself on this package.

to reiterate: I don't hate the idea, the innovation... but the core of the deck is basically perfect and the only things that should change week to week are rurc/wrp main or not and sb cards.

[dte]

I do not cut any of the wirewood/visionary/GSZ/Glimpse/NO/DRS/Quirion, but I have 3 nettle / 3 heritage.
In fact as Regal is over the 2nd hoof, it is not different to some of Julian's list featuring Ruric + WRP.

It is not really an innovation, what I tried to discuss is just the choice between 2 hoofs or Regal + hoof.
I understand when 2 hoofs are better, as I kept track of the games when I lost because of the split, mainly because of a natural draw of my lone hoof which get discarded/countered.

But I cannot agree with "no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target."

Regal is better than hoof as a natural draw/GSZ target when you do not reach enough mana for hoof or it requires you to tap all your elves. And even if we can generate ridiculous amount of mana from time to time, the difference between 7 and 8 (natural draw) or 8 and 9 (GSZ) is nothing to laugh at;
Still speaking in terms of natural draw / GSZ, we can discard progenitus as an option;
vs most decks, Regal > WRP/Ruric if you have the ability to cast it. I still GSZ into WRP more often than for regal against non-StP decks (easier to cast) and NO > Ruric early more often than NO > Regal.

[jakriner]

Hey all, I am just recently returning to Legacy and back to Elves. Last I played a Competitive Legacy event was more than two years ago and I was running Combo Elves without NO. Emrakul/Ezuri, Renegade leader as win cons. I am finishing putting together the deck and attended Eternal Extravaganza 2 in Central Pennsylvania. I ended up 6-3 for the event, finishing 60th of 318 players. My losses were to Turbo Dark Depths(not sure what the real deck is. Isnt lands), Storm(TES), Dredge. All of these games felt very close and had them dead if I made it to next turn. Does anyone have any recommendations on strategy vs. these matchups.

I was running the following list:

Creature (28)
2x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Heritage Druid
3x Nettle Sentinel
4x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Land (20)
2x Bayou
2x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
4x Gaea's Cradle
1x Pendelhaven
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (12)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Null Rod
2x Pithing Needle
1x Progenitus
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Wren's Run Packmaster

[MD.Ghost]

that is a lot of fatties md...are you cutting lands? elves? I don't hate the toolbox feel, but I do hate diluting the core of the deck even if it's only by 2 cards.

core elf mens like q.ranger, drs, nettle, wws, and visionary can't go below 4. Normally I could see shaving a NO, but since you have all those 1-of fatties that seems terrible.. shaving on glimpse sounds blasphemous but I'd do that before anything else if you absolutely sold yourself on this package.

to reiterate: I don't hate the idea, the innovation... but the core of the deck is basically perfect and the only things that should change week to week are rurc/wrp main or not and sb cards.

I can totally see a tutorbox without falling back. Two big ones seems common (most of the time 2nd hoof), so the question seems to be: Is it right to max out the combo percentage and turn a blind eye to some corner cases we all know, where we get paired against uncommon matchups (and the current meta feels divers enough) or our opponents are prepared enough against elves and dispose of the right spell mix to fight back even game one?

I still feel comfortable enough with my build and tournament results:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15869&iddeck=118258
Including a full tutorbox with 1 Hoof, 1 Ruric, 1 Ooze, 1 Sage and 1 WRP at Main!

Even Julian test enough stuff here and there (but his main seems set in stone for now) and i like his uncommon BUG-Side. In quite a spell Elves are a popular deck and you shouldn't netdeck too fast. For me it seems right to use some of the 75 cards to gain a surprise effect. From Ruric Main, some Counters or even Choke and rare Blood Moons at Side - we can use some nasty stuff to gain advantages to cover some uncommon edges.

[Tammit67]

Hey all, I am just recently returning to Legacy and back to Elves. Last I played a Competitive Legacy event was more than two years ago and I was running Combo Elves without NO. Emrakul/Ezuri, Renegade leader as win cons. I am finishing putting together the deck and attended Eternal Extravaganza 2 in Central Pennsylvania. I ended up 6-3 for the event, finishing 60th of 318 players. My losses were to Turbo Dark Depths(not sure what the real deck is. Isnt lands), Storm(TES), Dredge. All of these games felt very close and had them dead if I made it to next turn. Does anyone have any recommendations on strategy vs. these matchups.


There often isn't much you can do, although I haven't had issues with depths decks myself. Consistently beating dredge/tes post board would require a retooling of the board and leave you disadvantaged in more standard matchups.

Congrats on top 64

[Julian23]

Just checking in for a small post, I really liked Flusterstorm over Discard at the Milan Eternal. Discard is better vs Storm while Flusterstorm is better vs SneakShow, even though it has issues with Sneak Attack (which I accounted for by playing 2-3 Pithing Needles). The big plus for Flusterstorm to me was the added utility vs decks like Infect (where it stole a match) and Burn.

I've never been a fan of Swan Song but I also never really liked the discard. Sticking with Flusterstorm for now, seeing how OmniTell is the dominant combo deck on MODO with stronger showings of (what I consider to be an inferior deck=>) Sneak Attack over Storm in paper as well; at least where I play.

[Lans89]

Just checking in for a small post, I really liked Flusterstorm over Discard at the Milan Eternal. Discard is better vs Storm while Flusterstorm is better vs SneakShow, even though it has issues with Sneak Attack (which I accounted for by playing 2-3 Pithing Needles). The big plus for Flusterstorm to me was the added utility vs decks like Infect (where it stole a match) and Burn.

I've never been a fan of Swan Song but I also never really liked the discard. Sticking with Flusterstorm for now, seeing how OmniTell is the dominant combo deck on MODO with stronger showings of (what I consider to be an inferior deck=>) Sneak Attack over Storm in paper as well; at least where I play.

Do you still play all the Chokes side? Or is that just for the online meta? I havn't seen any decklists from the event. When playing counters and adding a Tropical to the maindeck (I guess), do you still run Pendelhaven? I still play discard, but don't like it a lot either.. especially Cabal Therapy... When you miss the first, but also saccing a creature isn't always the right thing to do =( We need those little green men!

You're absolutely right that Omnitell is very popular right now! I played it for a couple of tournaments, but Elves is strong too and more importantly: a lot more fun to play :D! Even when you loose..

PS: Did you receive my private message :)?

[Julian23]

Hey guys, I posted a small report of my performance with Elves at last weekend's Milano Eternal (178 players).

It includes a short recap of interesting situations, some pictures of the event and my thoughts on sideboarding.

You can find it on http://itsjulian.com/ (http://itsjulian.com/?p=1074)

@Lans89: I did, but didn't get to reply yet. You're not the only one messaging me about that ;-) We'll be renting a 3-person room in the Melia Aurelia Antica, where the event is taking place.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Hey, we're back!!! Decks to beat is right where we should be.

[Brentane]

Hey, we're back!!! Decks to beat is right where we should be.

Ah beat me to it! I love this deck and so excited that we are back in business baby!

[Shagstaman]

lets be honest, we never really left.

;)

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) ! :-)

We're trying out a Tasigur in the sideboard today. Woohoooooo!

[Togores]

And how was tasiguy?
I do think is good but people here disagree.
The effect is used usualy? If not may be gurmag angler is better. Big body for low investment ib grindy games.

[jamie7keller]

Hey everyone. It's been busy on my end, but my Intro to Legacy podcast: Legacy Weapon, just posted an Elves! deck tech.

I'd love feedback. This is episode 4 of our show, and this is our first deck tech (started with the best). I think going forward, now that we have introduced the audience to Legacy in general, I think deck techs will be the backbone of the show and I want to get the balance right on accessible but not boring.

Our niche is introducing new people to the format. Because of that I couldn't go nearly as deep or fast as I wanted.

http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/legacy-weapon/legacy-weapon-104-cobblers-trees-and-the-north-pole-observing-elves-in-their-natural-habitats

we are also on iTunes and have an rss if you are fancy.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! Tune in at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian)

We just lost round 1 to Miracles! Amazing! :cry:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Zombie]

To actual Miracles. Terminus into Entreat. That was one lucky SOB.

[chewemy]

Ok , guys i love you ^^,

Come back from a tournament with a CDF (Legacy france cup) place for the winner + a toundra.

5 rounds:
1 : vs infect 2-1, slow start for me and him only playing 2 hierarch and FOW my glimpse. Turn 4 went for N.O and a lethal Craterhoof, next. Open a hand with 2 shaman, 2 symbiote, fetch, dryad, NO; he played a Glistener Elf, i played shaman, he dazed it, attack for 1 poison. Played a second shaman which take a fow and put the dryad. He attacked, no block forgot dryad :'(, double invigorate; ok next. He mull to 5, and i kept a really nice and with pithing and a possible turn two win, played turn 2 pithing and win the turn later, he only got nexus and waste so gg.
2 : vs Smallpox land, my nemesis (the last time we played, he just win with doing nothing :( ) ok let's go. Turn one small pox (ahhhhhhh) 2 tun later i got 2 shaman, 1 elfe, 2 symbiote. He tried to entomb punishing fire and return it 2 times and said no 2 times (it felt so good) and went for the win a turn. I side in surgical, turn 1 fecth go, me bayou sentinel go , waste go, fecth attack and go, smallpox (arg) i went for dryad and sac as crea so i kept sentinel, next turn he tried to exhume Ashen Rider but i got a surgical in hand, after so trix with symbiote/visionary = NO for the win.
3 : BUG delver, went to 2 life with 2 tarmo and 1 delver flip, hardcast craterhoof for the win. Game to decay a flip delver, he marshal casualties 2 times without the kick (no enough land), top deck ooze and got an 9/9 ooze, he couldn't do anything.
4: RUW Delver. Mull the 2 first hand with just a cradle, the next with no land ok so 4 cards = no land. i kept it and went to top deck mod after 3 turns i got a land but he daze or bolt or sword every crea; ok next. Decay delver, but he fow packmaster. He put 1 Meddling Mage on NO, 1 ethersworn canonist and 1 Stoneforge Mystic and went for jitte which eat a decay. I top deck ooze and again a 9/9, he didn't see any sword :). I minded trick him with saying "Meddling Mage on NO was the best thing since i could ve win next turn" but i sided out the 3 NO. Game three, Meddling Mage on NO (mouhahha) went for GSZ for symbiote and for 3 turn multiple symbiote and visionary = best friends, i got to much cards avantage and went with a GSZ craterhoof for the win. If he named GSZ with meddling mage the game 2 and 3, it was a lost for me i think.
5 : BUG delver (again), went to 6 life with double shaman and 2 tarmo but he got a manadeath, i did block with visionary even with symbiote on the table, i wanted to go NO the next turn, NO craterhoof = next game. Next He block me for some turn with decay and counter. i developed my board with a glimpse decay his shaman and slam a choke, living him with a fecth untap. GSZ for craterhoof next turn.

So i win for the first time a legacy event (a tundra + a qualification for the CDF). It's my 2 tournaments in legacy :) Elves for the win.

Ps: sorry for my english, i'm tired, this deck take a lot of stamina.





Lands:
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven


Creatures :
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
1 Ruric Thar, The Unbowed


Sorceries :
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order


Sideboard :
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Choke



Thanks a lot Julian, i watched all your videos and reporst. I builded a sideboarding note with all of this. So thanks you really much :D

[MD.Ghost]

@chewemy: Gratz!

-----------------

I played Elves yesterday at our local store (27 players, 5 rounds) - after a bad start, the deck was warmed up and i finally get the 7th place and a small price.

Matchups:

R1 vs Goblins 1:1 (not the worst matchup, but a new player - he was very slow...and my deck also durdles around the 2nd game...)

R2 vs Aggro Loam 1:2 (3 Games he leds with Chalice...G3 he totally destroyed me with additional PFire and Wastes..my hand has a turn 3 NO Win but wasn't able to beat his start..)

R3 vs D & T 2:1 (thx God - i really lost G1..but after that strange moment, the decks performed well enough for the rest of the tournament)

R4 vs RUG 2:0 (i like this matchup, very interactive and afterall not so bad for elves)

R5 vs Shardless BUG 2:0 (i feared to see miracle in the finals, because thx to round 1 i was at the draw bracket, but god send me Shardless^^)

3 : 1 : 1 - felt ok after the annoying start...

My Maindeck was the same grindy stuff as always, but the sideboard get a newcomer: 1 Tasigur

Sadly i not see him vs Aggro Loam (he would have been nice vs Chalice & PFire..) and don't draw (and needed) him vs RUG - afterall i think i will test a 2nd Ooze (1 Main) over Tasigur, because both cover the same matchups and can shine in a lot of comparable situations.

---------

Good News: After over a half year without Progenitus, i never missed him - i won all my D&T matchups without the hydra even after the get Judgment and Priest.

---------

I'll keep my fingers crossed, we see a tutorable and usable Nissa at Magic Origins.

[chewemy]

Quick question guys,

I play against Sneak&Show, after side, he brought in Massacre Wurm. That card destroyed me after each show and tell, killing 4-6 creatures.
How do i play around this ? do i sideboard in ooze ?

Thanks

[Tammit67]

Quick question guys,

I play against Sneak&Show, after side, he brought in Massacre Wurm. That card destroyed me after each show and tell, killing 4-6 creatures.
How do i play around this ? do i sideboard in ooze ?

Thanks

Lol. If the deck that already is favored wants to go ahead and bring in more ways to deal with you, you are just going to lose. Honestly, if show and tell gets cast, it doesn't matter what he brings in as you should pretty much die to whatever it is

[Tammit67]

Small report from Top Deck Games in Haddon, NJ, USA:

Using an older list, 3 NO main with packmaster, ooze, sage. Board has discard, second ooze Ruric thar as notables. 33 people in attendance, 6 rounds

Round 1- ANT Storm 2-0. He pitches his tendrils to an LED to go get ad nausuem of Infernal, I remove it and he doesn't find his 1 Burning wish. Game two cabal therapy buys time for ruric thar.

Round 2- Death and taxes 2-1. Games 1 and 3 were about natural order, game 2 I walked into a mindscensor that found a jitte. I have decays in hand but no bayou, failing to find twice off fetches

Round 3- Miracles 1-1. I win game 1, some bullshit about when the round ends (they posted a time that a spectator called but the judge didnt call until later) so i go from not dying to jace ult in turns to dying in jace ult in turns and drawing the match.

Round 4- Miracles 2-1 His game 3 opener that i see off thoughtseize is 2 fetch, top, cb, clasm, EE, priest. I win that game.

Round 5- reanimator 0-2 elesh norn on turns 3 and 2 :( Can't do anything on the draw

Round 6: esper stoneblade 2-1 I knock a friend out of contention, sorry Tigro!

Top 8: Reanimator, same as swiss. 1-2 Being on the play means deathrite does something. I don't quite get there in game three, he stabilizes at 2 life

[Careve]

Lately in my meta there are too many decks with Blood Moon. How do I beat turn1 blood moon on the draw? 4x ESG in my SB? Play less DRS and increase number of basic forests in MD? Ratchet Bomb in SB? Any other way?

[Shagstaman]

going mono green would fix their wagons (replace DRS with actual mana guys and replace fetches with forests)

back when I played mono green "budget" elves, the blood moon decks were kinda a joke--esp like painter and dragon stompy.. they'd get all raged up when I played 2 basic forests and proceed to combo on turn whatever.

edit: that being said...if you know your meta is like that and still wanna play the normal list, just make sure you keep hands with a forest or fetch so you can beat a turn 1 blood moon on the play or a turn 2 blood moon on the draw. If you get down the 1 forest, it's usually all we need to take over the game-- the same decks that poop out blood moons are "usually" good matchups for us (painter can be annoying if they are really lucky).

[Tammit67]

Lately in my meta there are too many decks with Blood Moon. How do I beat turn1 blood moon on the draw? 4x ESG in my SB? Play less DRS and increase number of basic forests in MD? Ratchet Bomb in SB? Any other way?

Morph two birchlores, turn them face up, BAM green mana

[Shagstaman]

Dryad arbor is a green 1/1 dryad mountain creature under blood moon.

the beat downs.

[Zombie]

Julian on Miracles, Riley on Lands, Ross on BUG Delver are kind of disheartening.

[Lemnear]

Julian on Miracles, Riley on Lands, Ross on BUG Delver are kind of disheartening.

Why? I think it's crucial to get new Impulses for your brain after playing a single deck for a very long time and switching decks also helps to learn other decks weaknesses and how to attack them. Under both aspects, playing with Miracles is completely fine from Julians perspective. I do the same as a Storm player for the beforementioned reasons with Miracles/Elves/D&T. :)

[Zombie]

I want to see Elves do well is all. And a field like the Invitational is pretty much full of fair blue decks which Elves is made to munch on so you'd expect people like Ross and Chris to play it there. It's not so much that it's wrong for them to play different stuff as much as I wanted to see Elves and there were none.

[Careve]

Morph two birchlores, turn them face up, BAM green mana

Unmorphing still requires a green mana which is not available unless i have one of the 2-3 forests in my starting hand. I guess i will have to turn to monogreen version, damn those moon+chalice decks :(

[Julian23]

Unmorphing still requires a green mana which is not available unless i have one of the 2-3 forests in my starting hand. I guess i will have to turn to monogreen version, damn those moon+chalice decks :(

In my experience, any deck with Blood Moon and/or Chalice ist either slightly or pretty favorable. Pair me up against MUD or Painter any day of the week, both are a dog to Elves. That includes Painter (slightly favored), MUD (pretty favored), Merfolk (favored) and Dragon Stompy (even, maybe slightly favored).

The way you deal with Blood Moon is simple:

On the play: You don't care a lot about it since you're running 9 Fetchlands and have a good chance to put a second green source to the table (DRS, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, Birchlore Rangers) etc.
On the draw: You accept to just lose to turn1 Moon, it's easy. However, you really want to keep a Fetchland since there is no need to expose yourself to turn2 Blood Moon which is still strong.

Chalice is also not that much of a threat, especially when you're on the play. Chalice decks just die to Natural Order for Progenitus/Behemoth, Visionary recursion, GSZ for Behemoth or Reclamation Sage etc.

Some games that come to mind are e.g. playing against MUD during my BoM '13 win. The guy goes turn1 Chalice@1, turn2 Chalice@2 ...and never got to take his third turn because I killed him on mine. At JK Milano Eternal earlier this month my opponent (on the play) went turn1 Chalice@1, turn2 Blood Moon. He died 5-6 turns later. The lesson is that Stompy-style decks are inherently incosistent and you should not try to distort your sideboard to fight their god draws; especially since their *real* god draws are just much to rare. What is a real god draw? Heavy disruption + pressure. Most of the time, they lack the later (Rakdos Pit Dragon was such a sweet card..) giving you plenty of time to either recover...or most of the time to just outright kill them with Order.

[Shagstaman]

I want to see Elves do well is all. And a field like the Invitational is pretty much full of fair blue decks which Elves is made to munch on so you'd expect people like Ross and Chris to play it there. It's not so much that it's wrong for them to play different stuff as much as I wanted to see Elves and there were none.

I got this. ...as soon as I get some legacy events within my driving range (richmond was more than a days drive for me and I have a 9-5 to worry about). I know I'm not as famous as those dudes but that's more about saturation than any other factor.

Ima rock elves until legacy isn't a thing or they print a 1 mana colorless pyroclasm (or something equally dirty).

[lost_ronin_soul]

Ima rock elves until legacy isn't a thing or they print a 1 mana colorless pyroclasm (or something equally dirty).

They did, and its an instant called terminus.

[Shagstaman]

They did, and its an instant called terminus.

orly..? I didn't know terminus killed my guys and could be easily cast from the hand without any setup... neat!

good thing only two decks play that card! ;)

[IMarques]

orly..? I didn't know terminus killed my guys and could be easily cast from the hand without any setup... neat!

good thing only two decks play that card! ;)

Honestly, I'm not sure that not killing our guys really helps us here. About the only plus is possible dryad beats via fetchlands. But even then, good miracles players know to StP the dryads quickly.

Also, while it's only played in a few decks, Miracles is indisputably one of the top two or three decks. It doesn't show well in the data, because Americans are allergic to miracles.

[Julian23]

If Terminus actually killed the creatures, I'd be happy to move in with the playset of Vengevines.

[Tammit67]

Unmorphing still requires a green mana which is not available unless i have one of the 2-3 forests in my starting hand. I guess i will have to turn to monogreen version, damn those moon+chalice decks :(

It was a tongue in cheek reply, mostly because the problem you are describing is actually not a problem. We have a good game plan against these decks- If you are on the play OR they don't have turn 1 moon OR you have one of 2 forests in your hand. Their lock pieces get beaten by reclamation sage and decay while we have a much more consistent deck.

Don't switch to a shitty version of elves to beat Dragon Stompy.

EDIT: Oh man, I would kill for vengevines in the 75 as an answer to miracles

[Shagstaman]

Honestly, I'm not sure that not killing our guys really helps us here. About the only plus is possible dryad beats via fetchlands. But even then, good miracles players know to StP the dryads quickly.

Also, while it's only played in a few decks, Miracles is indisputably one of the top two or three decks. It doesn't show well in the data, because Americans are allergic to miracles.

Ok I know I'm going to regret making this reply BUT...

A. I played vs miracles 3 times in the last large event I was at...I think miracles is well represented but the difference is partly that europeans are more willing to invest time/money into "real" decks than we are, meaning that budget/combo decks are more prevalent--and those are worse matchups for miracles thus impacting results. Tell me how miracles beats mono-b pox or eldrazi stompy? =/ awkward!

B. After a terminus I can still gsz for any creature that got hit...and one shuffle from anything resets my library to full capacity. Pyroclasm kills em dead, forever...for 2 mana and no library manipulation required.

C. We all know miracles is a bad matchup for elves, for obvious reasons...but the good elves players find ways to consistently go 50/50 vs it despite the uphill struggle and strong possibility of draws-- I'd rather sit across from top and terminus all day than to play goldfish combo decks or even worse...mono b pox. =/

[chewemy]

Quick question, What do you bring vs affinity ?

Null rod, pithing needle and decay ?

Thanks

[Julian23]

My friend Lukas made Top4 at the MKM Event in Rome :-)

List is pretty standard: Pendelhaven, no Progenitus, 6 Discard, 1 Surgical, 1 Library, 3 Decay, 1 Choke, Needles + Null Rod(s?).

[IMarques]

Quick question, What do you bring vs affinity ?

Null rod, pithing needle and decay ?

Thanks

Haven't played against Affinity in legacy, but it seems to me like they're going to be slower than you (especially on the play) unless they're packing some serious hate (lodestone golem type stuff). You should be careful about overboarding, because it will seriously slow you down. In general, killing people faster is the solution to most problems this deck has. And I can't imagine the match is so bad that you'd want to prepare for it over say Shiva (aka Miracles) or Combo.

That being said, Null Rod is probably the best card you have, since it shuts off pretty much everything they can do. At most I would board in 1-2 Null Rods and 3 Decays. Likely best to pull out elements of the Glimpse package, as that's probably too slow to win.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

As smokin' as our deck is . . . we appear to be not to be in our heyday at the moment. That's ok, things in flux keeps the game interesting. I'm wondering what we all think our toughest match-ups are these days.

For me, I've found the following decks to be giving me the hardest time:

Miracles
R/G Lands--have I mentioned that I hate Lands
Sneak and Show
Imperial Painter
RUG/Temur Delver

What are you finding to be especially vexing across the table?

[chewemy]

Came back from an other OPEN CDF, even if i already have my slot, I need more experience.

So for my third legacy tournament, i went with elves again :)

R1 : 2/0 painter
R2 : 2/0 Stoneblade miracle the list which won the last SCG Premier IQ Syracuse.
R3 : 1/2 12 Post
R4 : 2/0 patriot
--->Top 4
Semi : 2/0 12 Post
Final : 2/0 UWR delver

Win :eek:
:laugh::laugh:

[IMarques]

As smokin' as our deck is . . . we appear to be not to be in our heyday at the moment. That's ok, things in flux keeps the game interesting. I'm wondering what we all think our toughest match-ups are these days.

For me, I've found the following decks to be giving me the hardest time:

Miracles
R/G Lands--have I mentioned that I hate Lands
Sneak and Show
Imperial Painter
RUG/Temur Delver

What are you finding to be especially vexing across the table?

Depends on your local meta-game, maybe. I play a weekly 4 round, 22 person tournament. People are not insanely competitive, but most have top tier decks. I've gone 3-0-1 and 4-0 in the last two I played in (about a month apart). Mostly been preying on Delver, Stoneblade, and Death and Taxes. To be fair, though, I did dodge Miracles both times.

As for RUG, it's rough, but not unwinnable. Maybe have a luck at Julian's website and watch some video. He's likely the best (or one of the best) Elves pilots and you can learn a lot about sideboarding from watching him. That's what I tend to do with tough matches.

[Shagstaman]

imo the decks I wanna see least in order are:

mono black (ritual into liliana or turn 2 night of souls betrayal is basically gg)
reanimator (seems unwinnable unless you are on the play and get DRS down games 1 and 3)
omni-tell (better than sneak and show because they win the turn they cast SnT/Dream halls)
miracles (derp, whole thread talks about this matchup)
lands with glacial chasm and p.fire (if it's one but not the other, it's a much better matchup)
other combo decks that are a turn faster than us (manaless dredge, storm, tin fins)
tarmogoyf/delver decks overloaded with removal (if they skimp on spot removal, mu gets much easier)

the rest of the format is 50/50 or favored for us, IMO.

I may be forgetting something, but yea those are all matchups I'd prefer not to see. The ones in bold feel like auto-losses, esp. if they win the dye roll.

[Brentane]

imo the decks I wanna see least in order are:

mono black (ritual into liliana or turn 2 night of souls betrayal is basically gg)
reanimator (seems unwinnable unless you are on the play and get DRS down games 1 and 3)
omni-tell (better than sneak and show because they win the turn they cast SnT/Dream halls)
miracles (derp, whole thread talks about this matchup)
lands with glacial chasm and p.fire (if it's one but not the other, it's a much better matchup)
other combo decks that are a turn faster than us (manaless dredge, storm, tin fins)
tarmogoyf/delver decks overloaded with removal (if they skimp on spot removal, mu gets much easier)

the rest of the format is 50/50 or favored for us, IMO.

I may be forgetting something, but yea those are all matchups I'd prefer not to see. The ones in bold feel like auto-losses, esp. if they win the dye roll.
You combat all those matchups with preferably a Ruric Thar. He helps beat all those matchups. Heck, we are known to go off turn 2. A turn 2 Ruric Thar is unbeatable against all those matchups (except Lands, which you use progenitus for). This is why I am trying to find space in my deck to maindeck him.

[Echelon]

You combat all those matchups with preferably a Ruric Thar. He helps beat all those matchups. Heck, we are known to go off turn 2. A turn 2 Ruric Thar is unbeatable against all those matchups (except Lands, which you use progenitus for). This is why I am trying to find space in my deck to maindeck him.

Ruric Thar vs. Manaless Dredge? Lol.

[Brentane]

Ruric Thar vs. Manaless Dredge? Lol.

We do have Deathrite Shaman maindecked still. We also have Ooze in the side.

[Echelon]

We do have Deathrite Shaman maindecked still. We also have Ooze in the side.

Manaless is a fine MU for Elves!. Also, it doesn't need to cast any spells to win so Ruric Thar is pretty useless there. Your best bet would be to either outrace them or set up DRs and/or Ooze and just take control of their yard. It's pretty easy to dismantle that deck.

[Brentane]

This is my current build. I am struggling on figuring if I should stay with 19 lands or if it is too greedy and I should go back to 20 lands. I am also thinking of adding Ruric Thar, The Unbowed into the maindeck, although I don't know if I want to cut a Craterhoof or Natural Order. Any tips?

Creature (31)
2x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Land (19)
2x Bayou
2x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Taiga
4x Gaea's Cradle
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (12)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
1x Null Rod
1x Progenitus
1x Ruric Thar
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize

[Lemnear]

This is my current build. I am struggling on figuring if I should stay with 19 lands or if it is too greedy and I should go back to 20 lands. I am also thinking of adding Ruric Thar, The Unbowed into the maindeck, although I don't know if I want to cut a Craterhoof or Natural Order. Any tips?

Creature (31)
2x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Land (19)
2x Bayou
2x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Taiga
4x Gaea's Cradle
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (12)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
1x Null Rod
1x Progenitus
1x Ruric Thar
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize

cut a Heritage Druid if you need space. Pretty simple

[Echelon]

This is my current build. I am struggling on figuring if I should stay with 19 lands or if it is too greedy and I should go back to 20 lands. I am also thinking of adding Ruric Thar, The Unbowed into the maindeck, although I don't know if I want to cut a Craterhoof or Natural Order. Any tips?


You look at your lands the wrong way. As far as you're concerned, Dryad Arbors are creatures and Gaea's Cradles are spells.

Of the lands you are running, only 13 can give you mana on your first turn. That means that in 16,3%, or 1 in roughly 6, of your hands there will no land capable of making mana and so you'll have to take a mulligan. Most builds run 14 non-Arbor, non-Cradle land, bringing the percentage down to 14% or roughly 1 in 7 hands. In the past I've gone as low as 12 land, but I honestly think 14 is the sweet spot.

[Brentane]

cut a Heritage Druid if you need space. Pretty simple

Heritage Druid is a key Druid for Elves though aren't they? They help you go infinite mana / draw.

[Echelon]

Heritage Druid is a key Druid for Elves though aren't they? They help you go infinite mana / draw.

With the current build you never go infinite, just incredibly-large-but-surely-finite-amounts. Also, having 1 copy of the Druid on the battlefield is enough. Having extra copies on the field doesn't do a thing. Nettle Sentinel is what you want multiples of when going off.

[Brentane]

With the current build it's never infinite. Also, having 1 copy of the Druid on the battlefield is enough. Having extra copies on the field doesn't do a thing. Nettle Sentinel is what you want multiples of when going off.

Hmm. That makes sense. Thank you for that. Also, is 19 lands to greedy? I haven't been having problems yet but I am curious.

[Echelon]

Hmm. That makes sense. Thank you for that. Also, is 13 lands to greedy? I haven't been having problems yet but I am curious.

Fixed that for you. And I honestly do think it is.

[Zombie]

Heritage Druid is a key Druid for Elves though aren't they? They help you go infinite mana / draw.

Nah, it's the worst card in the deck, easy. You play 4 if you want to emphasize the combo deck angle in some metagames, but if it's a more midrange friendly meta they're pretty bad. Too much removal flying around to play a card that does flat nothing by itself.

[Lemnear]

Trust the Terrorist of Titania, the Zombie and Poppa Bear Pete on the 3-off Heritage and 14 initial mana lands, pal ;D

[Echelon]

Trust the Terrorist of Titania pal ;D

OMG lol :D I changed it back like 2 months ago, hahaha

[Lemnear]

OMG lol :D I changed it back like 2 months ago, hahaha

Don't deny your true self

[Absolutflipz]

Dragonlord Atarka seems like a potentially sweet NO target out of the board to clean up Pyromancer/tokens, Delvers, etc.

[Brentane]

Dragonlord Atarka seems like a potentially sweet NO target out of the board to clean up Pyromancer/tokens, Delvers, etc.
I love this suggestion. Although, I can only see this being good when you have not enough creatures for a leathal hoof. Is that enough though?

[Dice_Box]

Winning outright seems like a better choice over a 7 drop Lava Axe.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Well, I suppose it's not surprising to find ourselves back off the DTB list. It's been a rough season. But I'm not giving up hope for WotC to give us a few tools to make the deck a touch more resilient to some of the dominant strategies.

My games against OmniTell haven't been so bad, I'm had more difficulty with U/R Delver and Miracles (and, of course, I still a punching bag for R/G Lands).

[Dice_Box]

I still a punching bag for R/G Lands
Even when I put Elves down, I still love them... Maybe it's the sadist in me...

Given the fluctuations in the meta right now, I am sure you will bounce in and out for a bit but when the dust settles, Elves will end up where it belongs. The deck is just too strong and resilient. If it was not so much more complex than it first appears, I doubt it would ever leave the DTB section.

[Echelon]

Dragonlord Atarka seems like a potentially sweet NO target out of the board to clean up Pyromancer/tokens, Delvers, etc.

@Lemnear: It's monday morning. I say it's time for one of your wonderful raps!

[Brentane]

Moved out of Decks to Beat again? Sigh. Still one of the best decks, considered in the top 8 decks in the whole format. Can't remember where it is placed though in that 8. Think it was 5.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear: It's monday morning. I say it's time for one of your wonderful raps!

Guess with all the "We run NO/GSZ so every green fatty ever printed has to be considered!" would make a pretty long one. I have a few new rhymes in the drawer just looking for an excuse (reads: topic) to stick 'em together. ;)