[Primer] Elves!

[Lemnear]

Just a repost of my list. It's unaltered since weeks and works flawless. 10 Fetches for 5 targets (including Dryad Arbor) is topend

4 Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

[Dice_Box]

That's a very greedy mana base, how often do you find Wasteland is an early game issue?

[Julian23]

Just a repost of my list. It's unaltered since weeks and works flawless. 10 Fetches for 5 targets (including Dryad Arbor) is topend

4 Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

-1 NO
-1 Birchlore Ranger

+1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+1 Viridian Shaman

Is what I've been playing for 2 months and also really like it. Adimitedly, the Ruric Thar is sometimes pretty useless, maybe he will have to go at some point. I don't really want him in the sideboard as he's much stronger g1 than after sideboarding when facing combo. The Viridian Shaman is a current concession to Jitte, although not a very good one at that as you will most likely always lose your board before you get to destroy it. Symbiote and Ranger tricks are fine but you don't always get them to stick around. I used to run Ezuri in that slot before and she was also quite good at grinding it out...still undecided.

[Kayradis]

I've been using that config too for a while, but my meta adapted to me.

[Lemnear]

That's a very greedy mana base, how often do you find Wasteland is an early game issue?

Don't feel that I would consider 10 Fetches + 1 Forest "greedy" in regards to Wasteland because the deck operates well off a single Forest as long as you fetch it first. I think it's a lot more stable than 18 lands / 8 fetches

@Julian

As you mentioned: Thar and V.Shaman are situational and I step back from maindecking such cards maindeck, especially in my meta. I found Shaman to be too slow and too unreliable handle Jitte if you have to Tutor for it with 4-mana-sorceries (GSZ or NO) against decks which runs (taxing) counters and often, going for a Hoof instead just takes the game than only handling a single permament.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, counter argument is accepted. I can agree with that. I would not want to go lower than 2 basic but hay, I will give that a go and see how it works out. At worst I watch my Fetches turned to mountains.

[danyul]

Just top 4'd a 95 player Black Lotus event. Report incoming as soon as I find some time. Decklist here http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums/showthread.php?p=51502#post51502. I took some of your advice and upped the Birchlore count. I also ignored some of your advice and left in 4 Quirion/2 Arbor. I felt that gave me access to the best of both worlds.

[Dice_Box]

Golgari Charm is an interesting choice. I am very interested in your report. Well done and what did you win?

[Kayradis]

I can see uses in multiple situations. good call.

[danyul]

Golgari Charm is an interesting choice. I am very interested in your report. Well done and what did you win?

We split the top 4 and cashed out instead of receiving the card-prizes. We each got 540 cash.

My sideboard has essentially been 13 cards for the longest time because I always end up with 2 crazy cards in my flex slots that don't do much. Last time it was Reverent Silence. This time those slots were Golgari Charms. 10 minutes before decklists were collected I almost audibled into Winter Orbs. Charm did nothing for me. I kind of wanna try Cursed Scroll or something wacky like that and see how it plays.

[Dice_Box]

Have you tried Jitte in that slot? I won off that back of Jitte smashing face on a Pox player even though he never let me have more that two creatures. I also have found it useful in games where life matters but you unlikely to see a lot of critters in the grave. Like burn.

It's more or less my flex slot at the moment and I have had one, lately two, in my side for a while.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Kayradis]

I can see value of Golgari charm in the RUG/UWR matchup.

[amppyou]

We split the top 4 and cashed out instead of receiving the card-prizes. We each got 540 cash.

My sideboard has essentially been 13 cards for the longest time because I always end up with 2 crazy cards in my flex slots that don't do much. Last time it was Reverent Silence. This time those slots were Golgari Charms. 10 minutes before decklists were collected I almost audibled into Winter Orbs. Charm did nothing for me. I kind of wanna try Cursed Scroll or something wacky like that and see how it plays.

i'm more curious to see if Ruric Thar was useful in the 75. I know he has his uses vs. storm, but that's the only scenario I see him being great in. Looking forward to the report.


I can see value of Golgari charm in the RUG/UWR matchup.

It always seems like the discussion is coming full circle when ghostway/golgari charm come up. the deck's MO is to be as efficient as possible, utilizing mana to the max. leaving 2 up constantly to blank cards they'd possibly have seems counterproductive.

Anyone here test/run joraga warcaller in the past? There are lists that have done well with him, but nobody on this thread seems big on him. Can't say I'm a fan personally (don't like his 1cmc, as there is a lot of engineered explosives running around in my area) but he's def out there.

[trevaftw]

Ok, counter argument is accepted. I can agree with that. I would not want to go lower than 2 basic but hay, I will give that a go and see how it works out. At worst I watch my Fetches turned to mountains.

WRT 2 basics if you happen to get paired against nic fit you can use veteran explorer and get two basics instead of one. Since they don't typically run wasteland you can fecth a non basic and allow for 3 lands on turn 2 or three (depending on their line of play). Also I think Savannah is worthless compared to taiga. When you need to generate one white mana and one green for something like Gaddock teeg it's very easy to accomplish with a couple of elves and not strain yourself. On the other hand if you need to hardcast Ruric Thar you don't want to be wasting your resources on tapping two elves for one red when you should tapping three for three green and a land for red.

[Absolutflipz]

I can see value of Golgari charm in the RUG/UWR matchup.

Golgari Charm was a card I came up with a possible SB card a few weeks ago. Sideboard slots are precious in legacy and versatile cards can buy you "extra" slots.

Anyway, I've played a bunch of 2-mans and a Daily (3-1) lately and I've brought it in for all of the effects. I've used it against some of the new Young Pyromancer decks for the -1/-1 (while you keep your Deathrites, Nettles, and most importantly Scavenging Oozes). I've brought it in to combat Rough/Tumble with the Regen, and also have occasionally hit a Mongoose and Unflipped Delver with the -1/-1.

Against BUG, OmniTell, and Miracles, the enchanment destruction is relevant, though I've yet to actually draw and cast it in any of these matchups.

Danyul -- I'm surprised your SB had no Thorn Effects - were you just trying to resolve NO for Ruric Thar in the MU's where Thorn would be good? I.e. Storm and RUG Delver? I always cut NO against Spell Pierce/Daze decks, so I'm curious what you actually did and how it worked out.

[Lemnear]

We have only 1 NicFit in our meta and I'm not too fond of limiting my access to Black and White by running more Forests and less Fetches.

I'm sure Harmonic Sliver, Teeg and Thalia are enough potential reasons to run Savannah over Taiga. I've cutted Thar long ago because it always got quickly handled by Submerge, StoP, Jace, Chain of Vapor etc. and Hoof would have done much more damage in those scenarios. I still have the Hydra God for matchups in which you can't really develop a board.

@Daniel:

Dood, did the Mainboard V.Shaman has any real application? Wouldn't you have prefered the 4th NO?

[trevaftw]

We have only 1 NicFit in our meta and I'm not too fond of limiting my access to Black and White by running more Forests and less Fetches.

Fair Enough.


I'm sure Harmonic Sliver, Teeg and Thalia are enough potential reasons to run Savannah over Taiga.

Just because there are potential reasons doesn't necessarily mean they are strong. I've found in my playing that the times I needed taiga far outweighed when I needed a savannah but ymmv.


I've cutted Thar long ago because it always got quickly handled by Submerge, StoP, Jace, Chain of Vapor etc. and Hoof would have done much more damage in those scenarios. I still have the Hydra God for matchups in which you can't really develop a board.

I disagree with your assessment. Assuming we're taking about a t2 hoof/ruric means you have 3 or 4 creatures for hoof's trigger but they are probably tapped for mana and can't attack. This means at most you'd be swinging for 10 damage which can get sworded (and prevented) or chained (and prevented) or submerged (and prevented) and etc. I think a near guaranteed 6 damage to remove him in these scenarios out weighs the possibility of 4 extra points of damage. This also doesn't factor in the possibility if they have a blocker of some sort to prevent some hoof damage.

If we start pushing back the turn we NO for Ruric Thar then yes he will become less useful compared to Hoof. The whole point of Ruric Thar is to get him out early and put pressure on so we have time to win.

[Lemnear]

Then we can do the math for having the turn 2 NO with 3/4 Natural Orders Maindeck for Ruric being maybe better than Hoof and do it again for turn 3 scenarios in which Hoof should easily do more damage/kill your opponent.

The turn 2 NO for Thar is significantly less likely than the turn 3 lethal Hoof.

I'm unwilling to run a NO target whichs shines only in 'bout 14% of cases. I think paying 2GG and a creature for just 6 damage is a horrible trade

[unemployer]

Hey guys, Played last Sunday here in Manila and landed 12th out of 53 players. Played the same build but changed the 1 Llanowar to a 2nd Birchlore.

2 birchlore rangers
4 deathrite shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
4 quirion ranger
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
1 wirewood hivemaster
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish archdruid
1 viridian shaman
2 craterhoof behemoth

3 natural order
1 beck // call
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature

2 wooded foothills
1 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 tropical island
3 gaea's cradle
1 dryad arbor
2 forest

sideboard:
1 gaddock teeg
4 cabal therapy
2 mindbreak trap
1 flusterstorm
2 abrupt decay
1 natural order
1 dryad arbor
1 progenitus
1 harmonic sliver
1 sylvan library

R1 Shardless Bug 2-1

G1: He was the first round on my last tournament and we both know what we were playing. Comboed off on T4 or T5 with GSZ for Hoof with around 11-14 creatures due to Glimpse > Heritage and Nettle.
G2: I comboed on T2 but stopped after drawing around 8-9 cards. End of my turn he played Golgari Charm and almost wiped my board. I was left with 1 DRS and 3 Nettle. On his T3, he played a Shardless Agent and cascaded an Ancestral Vision. I attacked on my T3 and just played a land. On his T4, he played an infest. That was basically GG for me
G3: My combo stopped on T4 and met a Golgari Charm. He had another payday with Shardless > Ancestral but I had the NO > Prog on the next turn. GG

R2: Zoo 2-0
G1: Comboed off on T5 or T6. He had a lot of removals and I was until 4. I had 1 elf in play, a Nettle, Heritage, Symbiote and a Glimpse. I top decked a cradle and comboed from there.
G2: I played a T3 NO > Prog. He doesn't have any answer. GG

R3: UR Show and Tell 1-2

G1: He didn't keep a good hand and by the time he played SnT > Emra, I had a hoof in my hand and 1 NO. On my turn, I played NO for the 2nd Hoof. GG
G2: I boarded a lot of hate against him but he had better draws. I had the Teeg on T2 and on my T3, my combo stopped while drawing 6-8 cards. On his turn he played Pyroclasm and that was it for me. He then played the Griselbrand and the draw 7 bailed him.
G3: He played a T0 Leyline and couldn't play my Therapies. I drew a Hoof and Harmonic and I was thinking of just keeping them until I needed it for the moment. I played around 4 creatures which my met by Pyroclasm on the next turn. He played SnT on the next turn and I was thinking of what card he will show since he was down to 8. I thought about it and I knew it was Griselbrand, not Sneak or Emra, and I was right. I played the hoof. On the next turns, I just drew bricks and had no significant threats. He killed me after 3 turns with Grisel. I never recovered from his gain life and draw 7. GG

R4: Shardless Bug 2-0
G1: Comboed on T5 with 5 creatures in play and NO for Hoof.
G2: My combo stopped on T3 and he played Golgari charm and killed almost everyone. I had 1 Nettle and 1 DRS in play the NO > Progenitus. GG


R5: Shardless Bug 2-0
G1: I comboed on T4 and killed him with Hoof. He only had 1 4/5 Goyf and 1 DRS and I had 6 creature with NO for Hoof.
G2: I comboed on T3 and he had the chance to play Golgari Charm and didn't. When I had 4 mana, I played NO and in response he played Golgari Charm which left me 2 Nettle, 1 without summoning sickness, and 1 DRS. He thought that the Hoof cannot kill him on that turn. I brought in Progenitus and he had a 2-turn clock. GG


R6: RUG 0-2
It was the same guy from the last tournament I played and I knew he played RUG. I was at 7th place and he was at 8th. We hand to play the last round in order for 1 of us to reach Top 8.
G1: He played a lot of attrition and a lot of counters. I was down to 3 and he had 1 Insect and 1 Goyf and he was down to 13. I was left with 3 creatures, Visionary, Quirion and Birchlore with 1 Cradle and Bayou. He had 2 cards in hand and just played the FOW the last turn. I made a misplay and played my NO immediately without thinking or floating proper mana. I tapped the Cradle and Bayou and played NO and SACRIFICIED Birchlore. Stupid play! because I hurried that one. He played daze and that was GG for me. It could have been my game.
G2: I played a Cabal and hit Brainstorm. I saw 2 Rough/Tumble, FOW, Stifle and I forgot the 2 lands. I flashbacked but met a FOW. He played Rough with 2 creatures in play and an Arbor. Next turn, he top decked a Cursed totem while I had 1 land. GG for me.

[MD.Ghost]

Then we can do the math for having the turn 2 NO with 3/4 Natural Orders Maindeck for Ruric being maybe better than Hoof and do it again for turn 3 scenarios in which Hoof should easily do more damage/kill your opponent.

The turn 2 NO for Thar is significantly less likely than the turn 3 lethal Hoof.

I'm unwilling to run a NO target whichs shines only in 'bout 14% of cases. I think paying 2GG and a creature for just 6 damage is a horrible trade

I also play Ruric and sometimes he is strictly better. The main reason is, with 2 Craterhoofs you have a raw power setup but can´t choose another way. Ruric is also a much easier hardcast (play taiga) with only 6 mana (and sometimes you are under heavy disruption). More and more opponents know how they fight the new elves, it is allways good to have more options than Natural Order into Bomb (yeah we play glimpse - but most of the time smash with NO/Craterhoof, Progenitus).

Played last Sunday here in Germany/Mainz and landed 4th out of 22 players.

Matchups:
2:1 vs Shardless BUG (Ruric win both Games)
2:1 vs Death & Taxes (a wall of Hate Pieces and i cut Progenitus for this tournament)
1:2 vs ANT (Missplay Game 3...search a Quirion instead of Deathrite)
2:0 vs Jund (Game 1 Ruric, Game 2 Ooze - played 2 of them this time)
2:0 vs High Tide (Game 1, Play NO to bait Force, hardcast Craterhoof, Game 2 he fizzles against an Army of Dorks)

@danyoul: Gratz!

[Lemnear]

The goal of 4 GSZ, 4 NO and 2 Hoofs IS redundancy and there are not that many matchups which can't handle Thar mainboard so, as I mentioned, I don't run Ruric just to beat ANT game 1. More and more RUG Delver shift to UWR and run StoP + Geist + SFM which is bad news for Thar against those kind of decks.

6 mana isn't achievable under "heavy disruption" in my books facing Perish, Plague, E.E., Terminus, Grim Lavamancer, Burn, etc.

I still doubt players know how to tackle Elves. As long as Peeps counter DRS and Glimpse while underestimsting the redundant options to grab Hoof/Progenitus, Elves have an easy time which we acknowledge by all the good placings of even questionable builds around the globe

[Lemnear]

Oh myyyyy ... The spoilered Devotion-mechanic of Theros will bring up a nasty creature with 5/5 for GG for the formats #1 deck of colored permaments :)


(Double post for Headline)

[Zombie]

Oh myyyyy ... The spoilered Devotion-mechanic of Theros will bring up a nasty creature with 5/5 for GG for the formats #1 deck of colored permaments :)


(Double post for Headline)

Link?

Also, I wouldn't be so adamant on saying Thar is just bad. I think it's a meta choice, for the most part. You have lots of Delver/combo/Miracles in your meta, Thar is pretty kickass. If you have a midrange meta, the 2nd Hoof is pretty much the right call. Also, you can just have awkward hands where you can get a T2/T3 NO but not have much to swing with, where having Thar is good. Dealing with it makes them consume resources and take a good chunk of damage, and we still have the Hoof and a million ways to get it into play at a later point where it's game-winning. Plus you just tend to assume the opponent always has an answer to Thar ready in hand, which isn't always the case at all. At that point, they're pretty much screwed.

[danyul]

Tourney report up here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26619-Lost-in-the-Woods-Top-4-Mirkwood-Cup-95-players-8-25-13


Have you tried Jitte in that slot? I won off that back of Jitte smashing face on a Pox player even though he never let me have more that two creatures. I also have found it useful in games where life matters but you unlikely to see a lot of critters in the grave. Like burn.

It's more or less my flex slot at the moment and I have had one, lately two, in my side for a while.

I have thought about that. It's definitely on my list of things to try.


Danyul -- I'm surprised your SB had no Thorn Effects - were you just trying to resolve NO for Ruric Thar in the MU's where Thorn would be good? I.e. Storm and RUG Delver? I always cut NO against Spell Pierce/Daze decks, so I'm curious what you actually did and how it worked out.

Storm and RUG Delver aren't as popular in my meta anymore so I don't stress too much about having specific SB cards for them. I seem to do alright with my Therapies and Teeg for Storm and Scooze + whatever for RUG on the rare occasion that I get paired against them.


@Daniel:

Dood, did the Mainboard V.Shaman has any real application? Wouldn't you have prefered the 4th NO?

The Shaman has saved my ass plenty of times before. I didn't really use it much in this latest tournament but I have seen more Chalice decks running around the meta so I leave it in as a safety net. Also, Stoneforge decks are always around.


@danyoul: Gratz!

Thanks!

Ruric Thar was a bit lackluster for me all day. But I may have been simply bringing him in for the wrong matchups. For now I'll leave him in but I'm officially upset with him and our relationship is strained. He is in the doghouse.

[Lemnear]

Link?

Also, I wouldn't be so adamant on saying Thar is just bad. I think it's a meta choice, for the most part. You have lots of Delver/combo/Miracles in your meta, Thar is pretty kickass. If you have a midrange meta, the 2nd Hoof is pretty much the right call. Also, you can just have awkward hands where you can get a T2/T3 NO but not have much to swing with, where having Thar is good. Dealing with it makes them consume resources and take a good chunk of damage, and we still have the Hoof and a million ways to get it into play at a later point where it's game-winning. Plus you just tend to assume the opponent always has an answer to Thar ready in hand, which isn't always the case at all. At that point, they're pretty much screwed.

Miracles have Terminus, StoP, Karakas and SDT to find those, so I would step away from saying Thar really does more than 6-12 damage against them.

The combo-thing is twofold: it's pretty nice against ANT if you can land it turn 2 (or turn 3 in the play) but is often too slow against OmniTell, TES and Reanimator. Therefore I suspecf other cards than Thar for those matchups unless you combine him with a flurry of other hate like Therapy, Thalia, etc. and at this point it's impossible to argue that Thar was a cornerstone of your victory.

@spoiler

In MaRo's latest article he spoilered a 5/5 for GG and with the Devotion mechanic as a successor of Chroma, combined with the Infos we have already gathered about the Devotion-Demon and the first God, it's only counting 1+1 to imagine WotC printing a Legendary enchantment creature God for GG which is a 5/5 creature and indestructible as long as you control a certain about of green manasymbols among permaments (otherwise it's just an enchantment) + having a color-specific ability in both forms

[Zombie]

It probably doesn't. But neither does a Hoof played out when you don't have friends to swing with it, and it's vulnerable to all the same hate. And it's not like a Ruric configuration lacks the ability to just Hoof for lethal. It still has that. It's more that Ruric replaces those low-value Hoofs which you''d use the second Hoof for in the first place by doing roughly the same things plus extra value against combo and a lot of corner case utility where an opponent doesn't have answers ready in hand.

Whether it's a cornerstone depends entirely on the hand. Sometimes it's NO=>Thar, sometimes it's Thorn, sometimes it's Therapy, sometimes Teeg. Often two of those. The idea is to just have too much hate, which Thar helps ensure backbreaking plays all day long for low slot investment.

[Lemnear]

So you have Teeg + Thar in your SB as GSZ/NO targets?

[Zombie]

So you have Teeg + Thar in your SB as GSZ/NO targets?

Maindeck, actually. My meta is almost nothing but combo and tempo. Teeg/Ruric main, Prog, 2 Oozes, 2 Thorn, 4 Therapy side. For a fairer meta I'd swap Teeg to the side and the one Ooze to main at least.

[Lemnear]

Maindeck, actually. My meta is almost nothing but combo and tempo. Teeg/Ruric main, Prog, 2 Oozes, 2 Thorn, 4 Therapy side. For a fairer meta I'd swap Teeg to the side and the one Ooze to main at least.

In addition to a single MD Hoof i guess? I support the SB in that case

[Zombie]

In addition to a single MD Hoof i guess? I support the SB in that case

Of course. I thought 1 Hoof main was a foregone conclusion for this deck? O_o'

[Lemnear]

Of course. I thought 1 Hoof main was a foregone conclusion for this deck? O_o'

And I thought 2 were xD.

Nah, I just asked to have a clue how you found space for Teeg, Hoof and Thar. All clear now

[Kayradis]

It's all meta dependant at this point.

[Zombie]

Current list for a combo/tempo meta:

4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenirh
4 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Oblivion Ring
2 flex (atm Ghostway)

Needs 1 more land (going up to 61), might cut Shaman so I get two more.

[Kayradis]

I used to run the shaman main, but +1 land is quite relevant in most games.

[Lemnear]

17 lands, 7 Fetches, 2 Forests ... who called by manabase greedy? XP

Honestly, I can imagine gaining access to black/white mana with that list is difficult. Never had issues?

[Zombie]

17 lands, 7 Fetches, 2 Forests ... who called by manabase greedy? XP

Honestly, I can imagine gaining access to black/white mana with that list is difficult. Never had issues?

Occasionally, given the nature of the game, but usually not really. I am looking to add an extra fetch for a reason though, the land count IS low :P

[MD.Ghost]

17 lands, 7 Fetches, 2 Forests ... who called by manabase greedy? XP

Honestly, I can imagine gaining access to black/white mana with that list is difficult. Never had issues?

I also play 17 lands (4 Cradle, 7 fetches, 2 Basics, 4 Duals) + 1 Arbor, most of the time it works good enough. More Fetches feed Deathrites (but legacy is full of fetchbased decks) and increase color availability (which isn´t a real problem if you also play 3 or 4 Bircholore along with 4 Deathrites) With 6 real lands (besides cradle) you can also compensate Wastelands and are more stable against tax-counters or enable a Natural order after a wipe...

Never had issues? Sometimes this deck has issues, but with more lands you can also weaken glimpse (or even normal) draws etc.

Theros:
Thassa, God of the Sea 2u
Legendary Enchantment Creature -God M
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn’t a creature. (Each u in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
1u: Target creature you control can’t be blocked this turn.
5/5

Maybe we get a 5/5 for GG (Maro's Hint, as Lemnear said) which is indestructible (i think all god cards get it), which is nice against most removal (besides swords, submerge) with some nasty ability. Elves are tailor-made for devotion action.

[Zombie]

The 5/5 for GG won't be the green God. Green god is humanoid, 5/5 for GG is a snake or something.

[amppyou]

I also play Ruric and sometimes he is strictly better. The main reason is, with 2 Craterhoofs you have a raw power setup but can´t choose another way. Ruric is also a much easier hardcast (play taiga) with only 6 mana (and sometimes you are under heavy disruption). More and more opponents know how they fight the new elves, it is always good to have more options than Natural Order into Bomb (yeah we play glimpse - but most of the time smash with NO/Craterhoof, Progenitus).

This is the most cohesive argument I've seen for Thar. It definitely has to be a meta decision. IMHO, he only belongs in the MD if you face off vs. a lot of storm in your meta. He does open up a different line of play, and for some players that might be appealing.

here are soem of the lameduck arguments i've seen for thar:
+6 cost instead of 8, easier to hardcast
if you're hardcasting Thar, it assuredly means you have a team of elves. Sometimes you'll have to tap out all of your elves to get to 6 mana, landing thar. He's probably better in that example. Otherwise, having a team of elves means you want to swing with them via hoof. Thar is better if you can't critical mass your elves, but it's probably a thin line between a rushed-thar and a critical-hoof. Thar also forces the inclusion of taiga, screwing with your mana base be it forest or savannah

+t2 thar is the tits
against storm, yes yes yes! no argument there, but against miracles he probably just eats a terminus, StP, or gets karakas'd. I've faced miracle decks that also pack venser, so there's that as well. Against RUG, t2 thar is just not realistic. Even if you are able to rush it out through FoW/daze/pierce, a flipped delver and one bolt will trade 2 (and 6 damage) for 3. If you don't like the flipped delver argument, change it to goyf goyf or goyf bolt, whatever floats your boat

[Dice_Box]

I am starting to think long and hard about cutting Thar. I run him in the side and when I look at the side I find few times I want him over Pro. Granted I do not have to face storm locally.

A friend and I am going to get ready for the GP coming up by proxying all the decks we think we will face. I will throw together both storm decks, TES and ANT and then see what happens. Mostly I want to test RUG and BUG. But I am sure I will be able to say after 25 or 30 games against storm where I think Thar should be.

Anyone think there is any decks I should really test hard against?

[Zombie]

I am starting to think long and hard about cutting Thar. I run him in the side and when I look at the side I find few times I want him over Pro. Granted I do not have to face storm locally.

A friend and I am going to get ready for the GP coming up by proxying all the decks we think we will face. I will throw together both storm decks, TES and ANT and then see what happens. Mostly I want to test RUG and BUG. But I am sure I will be able to say after 25 or 30 games against storm where I think Thar should be.

Anyone think there is any decks I should really test hard against?

If you don't have much Storm, RUG or Miracles in your meta, a 2nd Hoof main and the freed SB slot are both better than having Ruric either main or side.

Personally, I have a much harder time making the right plays in fair matchups than the unfair ones, even without a specifically anti-combo loadout like I currently have. G1 D&T is grindy as hell, and definitely practice Delver Tempo. Different Stoneblade lists also require a pretty different approach. Esperblade for example you pretty much worry about Jitte and that's it, DRS-blade at least looks like a walkover. Bob-blade is annoying because wtf Bob needs to die and we play no removal, and so on. UWR Blade plays less bomby things, but has a much stronger early game. A lack of discard definitely plays in our favour. Golgari Charm and Progenitus ought to be pretty good vs. UWR.


This is the most cohesive argument I've seen for Thar. It definitely has to be a meta decision. IMHO, he only belongs in the MD if you face off vs. a lot of storm in your meta. He does open up a different line of play, and for some players that might be appealing.

IMHO the most cohesive argument for Thar I've seen has been the stupid number of games I've locked combo opponents out of and the relatively low number of games where a low-Impact Hoof would be noticeably better than him.

[Lemnear]

I am starting to think long and hard about cutting Thar. I run him in the side and when I look at the side I find few times I want him over Pro. Granted I do not have to face storm locally.

A friend and I am going to get ready for the GP coming up by proxying all the decks we think we will face. I will throw together both storm decks, TES and ANT and then see what happens. Mostly I want to test RUG and BUG. But I am sure I will be able to say after 25 or 30 games against storm where I think Thar should be.

Anyone think there is any decks I should really test hard against?

Test against the current iteration of Miracles: 3 Terminus, 4 StoP, 2 Karakas, 2-4 Venser ... The deck just shits at Ruric Thar and in danger of sounding like a dick, I have no clue who brought up Miracles as an argument FOR Thar. Same with RUG with all the Dazes, Spell Pierces, FoW and Lightning Bolts.


Pal, as soon I get home I post here an abstract of the upcoming HotS Vol. 5, featuring TES vs. BGw Elves (4 Therapy, 3 Thorn, 1 Teeg)

[Dice_Box]

What is HotS Vol. 5? Also thanks on the reminder for Miracles testing. I have not had to play it in a while so I forgot how much it hurts to be bent over by that deck.

Edit:
On graveyard shift for the next two weeks so I can actually interact with you all without a 7 to 12 hour delay. Wonder if you will all get sick of me...

[Lemnear]

What is HotS Vol. 5?

Please take a look at my signature.

There are links to detailed play-by-play reports from the perspective of a TES player and might be helpful to see the matchup from the other side of the table.

[Dice_Box]

OK, can not wait to read it. Looks like it will be handy. Also there is no thanks or thumbs up button here. Great for stopping Epeen issues but not great for when people are legitimately useful.

I am taking from your post of "4 Therapy, 3 Thorn, 1 Teeg" that you like thorn in the side? Do you find it useful outside of storm and Ominshow?

[Lemnear]

OK, can not wait to read it. Looks like it will be handy. Also there is no thanks or thumbs up button here. Great for stopping Epeen issues but not great for when people are legitimately useful.

I am taking from your post of "4 Therapy, 3 Thorn, 1 Teeg" that you like thorn in the side? Do you find it useful outside of storm and Ominshow?

No thanks needed;I gladly help. You still have to find out if the match-report wields any value for you.

For the Sideboard, I can only tell you that the deck was piloted by a teammate, with me on the TES side of the table (in round 3 of the tournament). We know each other very well and he was piloting exactly my Elves-Mainboard afaik but opted to run more Thorns which are a guarateed turn 2 disruption unlike Thar against the masses of combo and Tempo decks in the meta (there is no Miracles!) so I'm maybe not the person to comment on that last-minute decision.

I think the card can be rather annoying for Reanimator, Burn, Miracles (!), RUG Delver and helpful against sweepers. Don't say that there aren't better cards, but at least it's flexible

[Lemnear]

Here it is! Round 3 from Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 ... a free peek preview ;)



Round 3 – Elves

Oh myyyyy … it’s undeniable annoying to face a friend for a potential Top 8 elimination, but I enjoy him picking up Elves, so I can test the matchup firsthand after talking about it for weeks on The Source.

Game 1

We shuffle up and I’m able to top his dice-roll, opting to play first. I’m sure I need to be quick in this matchup as Elves developed into a blazing fast aggro/combo-deck over the last 2 months. I fan those 7.

Volcanic Island
Duress
Underground Sea
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Burning Wish
Lotus Petal

Would you keep that hand?

Geeez … again, I lack the mana to explode right into his face. I hope the double Wish + Duress is enough to strip him from NO or Glimpse while keeping the option to grapeshot his whole board. I open my turn with U.Sea and check his hand with Duress and see Deathrite Shaman, Natural Order, Elvish Visionary, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, a Forest and Birchlore Ranger … the total package! I take the 4-mana-bomb. In his turn he uses his Forest to cast a topdecked Green Sun’s Zenith to put a Dryad Arbor into play. I draw a second Ritual and have the options to wish for a delayed Diminishing Returns, 10 Goblins or a Grapeshot to hold him back from casting more Elves. The last option is counterintuitive and with the cards he has in hand, EtW can be too slow. I even had Ill-Gotten Gains in mind to create a lethal loop but aside of topdecking Infernal Tutor (to tutor another Dark Ritual for stormcount) I can’t come up with more than 9 stormcount against his 20 life (while giving him Natural Order back in hand). I decide to get Diminishing Returns and grab it with a Burning Wish after I dropped my second land before shipping back. He uses a topdecked Windswept Heath to dig for a Bayou and drops Heritage, Quirion and Birchlore, tap all 3 Elves and drops the Visionary plus the Deathrite Shaman. Now things get spicy, because I don’t see an economic way to clear the field with Grapeshot anymore. I draw Probe for my turn and decide to blindfire it hoping to find more mana I can float into the D.Returns. The Probe (storm1) reveals a Green Sun’s Zenith and I can count 10 mana on his side of the field available next turn. Casting the G.Probe was golden: A Lion’s Eye Diamond made it’s way into my hand. I drop it (storm2) and the Petal (storm3), cast the 2 Ritual off the U.Sea (storm4 + storm5) and cast Diminishing Returns (storm6) via Volcanic Island and the Petal. I think about popping LED for either blue or red mana but with BBB already floating and without having played a land that turn, I gamble for another initial mana source for those colors. Diminishing Returns does its job and I hit those:

Silence
City of Brass
Rite of Flame
Ponder
Burning Wish
Gemstone Mine
Rite of Flame

Pretty nasty. I play Gemstone Mine and tap it for red, RoF (storm7), RoF (storm8), Burning Wish (storm9) for Tendrils (storm10).

5-0

For any postboard game against current iterations of Elves you have to take a lot of different potential hate into account. There are enough players that still think that Mindbreak Trap saves them, but that’s an illusion because of Duress, Cabal Therapy and Silence aside the options to outplay MBT. Keener players (like my opponent) use more proactive solutions like Cabal Therapy or permament hate like Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Gaddock Teeg or Ruric Thar. Since most options those are creatures, bringing in C.Therapy, A.Decays or Chain of Vapors for Duress makes sense. I decide to board out EtW too, because it’s not unlikely that it’s worthless in the face of Craterhoof ending the match quick and the fast pace of the game is a reason, why the Decays with their ugly cost ultimately stayed in the board. I choose to keep my beloved Silences to gain time against all the sorcery-speed hate he might present.

Sideboarding: -3 Duress, -1 EtW, +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Cabal Therapy

Game 2

To leave him unclear how and how much I boarded, I use a simple trick I recommend using in general: I shuffle both my mainboard and sideboard together and then remove 15 cards from the 75-card-pile as your new sideboard. Starting the second game as usual on the draw, with an opponent being a close friend and both knowing both decks very well, I expect this game to be a nightmare. I fan the following 7

Gitaxian Probe
Rite of Flame
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Chrome Mox
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual

Would you keep that hand?

No land but at least a shitload of mana. The problem is that if he opens with a Cabal Therapy he’s well educated (by me, duh!) what to name: Lion’s Eye Diamond. I keep the hand because I will see the next 5 cards during the next turn. He drops a Bayou onto the battlefield and flings a Cabal Therapy. I sigh. He names indeed “Lion’s Eye Diamond” and I discard the artifact in despair while he takes notes about my hand and I see him flashbacking the Therapy next turn to timewalk me back into the stoneage by stripping the Ritual. Let’s see if I can turn the tide: I topdeck a second G.Probe during my drawphase and put the Sorcery on the stack going to 18 (storm1), seeing GSZ, Dryad Arbor, Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger and Thorn of Amethyst! At least, I draw a Gemstone Mine off the Probe and that raises my hopes. I probe again (storm2) to draw Brainstorm #2 just to imprint it into the Chrome Mox (storm3) and cast its twin (storm4), drawing Burning Wish, Ponder and LED. Ponder and RoF return back on top of my Library, before I continue to drop Gemstone and cast Petal (storm5) + LED (storm6). I notice that I already gathered 6 storm and can wish for 18 Goblins or spin the Diminishing Returns roulette with a mana floating. I recap his hand with my taken notes and don’t think he’ll be able to cast a topdecked Natural Order within the next 2 turns for value, so I cast the Dark Ritual off the Gemstone Mine (storm7), pop the Petal for red mana and offer a Burning Wish (storm8) with my Lion’s Eye Diamond as tribute to summon 18 angry goblins via EtW (storm9). I lean back, being sure, that this was the maximum value I could have squeezed out after being successfully hit by Therapy and with it being ready to flashback next turn and Thorn of Amethyst sitting in his hand … both now being complete blanks now. He facepalm himself in disbelieve, taking his turn. He draws, drops D.Arbor and Deathrite Shaman before passing back. I draw my well known Ponder I once hid ontop of my library and cast it off the Mox, seeing the also known Rite of Flame + Brainstorm & Chain of Vapor, keeping the bounce-spell in case of. I swing with the army, beating him to a bloody pulp with 3 remaining life after DRS blocked a single goblin to death. He draws and plays Quirion Ranger off his Arbor and I bounce his Deathrite Shaman to prevent some untap-shenanigans into Natural Order (here are no lands in any graveyard however). Taking a few moments to calculate his odds, he picks up all the other cards in addition to the bounced Elf.

6-0

[trevaftw]

Here it is! Round 3 from Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 ... a free peek preview ;)

Most of my experience against Storm is ANT so this was good to read. I will say that WRT game two that you menion him flashing back cabal therapy and naming dark ritual would time walk you. If you didn't draw a second probe, would you play Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox so you could brainstorm in response to the flash back cabal therapy? I know that if i were the elves player and saw that hand turn one and the next turn you played no land I would name Brainstorm (but this is mostly from playing against ANT so any input from the POV of this storm deck is very helpful).

[Dice_Box]

Nice read. Thanks. I agree on targeting Brainstorm for the second target.

So storm mate. Needs to be turn one or two only. That leaves Trap or more discard. I am not sure I like trap but I was thinking about dropping two more discard into the deck in the form of Thoughtseize.

[Lemnear]

Most of my experience against Storm is ANT so this was good to read. I will say that WRT game two that you menion him flashing back cabal therapy and naming dark ritual would time walk you. If you didn't draw a second probe, would you play Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox so you could brainstorm in response to the flash back cabal therapy? I know that if i were the elves player and saw that hand turn one and the next turn you played no land I would name Brainstorm (but this is mostly from playing against ANT so any input from the POV of this storm deck is very helpful).

I'm sure calling the Ritual is the right call if you play against a deck which can topdeck Infernal, Burning Wish, Ponder or another Brainstorm and is immediately back in the game. I remind, that storm-decks can't do anything without their big mana accelerants (which Dark Ritual is without a doubt). I always tell peeps to target mana against storm with LED top on the list with blind Therapy, because the lack of that card often blocks Infernal Tutor and the Tutors and Cantrips are redundant unlike the +2/+3 mana sources

I would not burn a Petal and a Brainstorm against Therapy because that is an outright waste of resources. A Chrome Mox would have been a different story but I did not have access to a second blue card (in addition to the Brainstorm) to imprint.

[Kayradis]

Can't wait to read the full report. Been a while since the last edition of HotS.

Slowly getting ready for Washington. Starting to proxy decks to test against all possible match ups.

[trevaftw]

I'm sure calling the Ritual is the right call if you play against a deck which can topdeck Infernal, Burning Wish, Ponder or another Brainstorm and is immediately back in the game. I remind, that storm-decks can't do anything without their big mana accelerants (which Dark Ritual is without a doubt). I always tell peeps to target mana against storm with LED top on the list with blind Therapy, because the lack of that card often blocks Infernal Tutor and the Tutors and Cantrips are redundant unlike the +2/+3 mana sources

I would not burn a Petal and a Brainstorm against Therapy because that is an outright waste of resources. A Chrome Mox would have been a different story but I did not have access to a second blue card (in addition to the Brainstorm) to imprint.

My thinking was that either you take brainstorm and put them in top deck mode or take the ritual but that let's them dig 3 deep and possibly set-up the win next turn anyways. I think in this situation it's a toss up which is better but I do see your side of the argument.

[Lemnear]

My thinking was that either you take brainstorm and put them in top deck mode or take the ritual but that let's them dig 3 deep and possibly set-up the win next turn anyways. I think in this situation it's a toss up which is better but I do see your side of the argument.

I would just take the available mana into account and the fact that there are only 6 +2/+3-mana-sources left in the deck compared with more than a dozen Cantrips and Tutors, therefore the loss of a Ritual in addition to the LED is harder to make up.



Edit: Such complexity in decision making is the reason I creates the HotS-Series. I hope those reports help TES players to step up their game and show non-storm-pilots the weaknesses of the deck while trying to demystify it



@Kay
I know the next entry takes forever, but I was away for work 7 weeks straight and had to deal with a lot of stuff after :/
My appeal to M:TG atm isn't focused at TES since I'll not able to be at BoM in November, so I durdle more around with TRS Doomsday, BGw Elves and Miracles.

[PendelSteven]

Hello people!

Since I've getting back in the hobby last year, I've got myself an Elvesdeck of which I've had 10 lands (including Cradle's and fetches) from way back.
I've put the Hoof in it myself before GP Denver, but I completely forgot about NO. Nowadays I have, I guess the 95 % of a 'real' Elvesdeck. Oh, I've been following the dicussion and can tell you I have playsets of Birchlores and even PoT's from back in the day. I guess I want to goldfish with 3 Birchlores.

My list currently:

1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote

2 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse Of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order (obviously the Visions-version)

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbo[u]r
4 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

---
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog (2 CR maindeck)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar
1 Scavenging Ooze



So. Yeah. It's pretty updated, I guess. Guess I could use an extra Bayou and perhaps a Cradle, although CR vs GC is card-disadvantage vs. is-playable-after-you-played-your-land-and-can-fetch-a-bajuka-bog. Sometimes I rather think I buy a Karakas rather than a 3rd Cradle since the 2 CR's in my maindeck.

Anyhow. Personally I think multiple cradle's in overrated, especially since we need 4 mana nowadays. NO, remember?



The thing that got me here though, was this thought:

Can anybody find a reason for the new Garruk out of M2014? Obviously if it costed 2GG, it would be in every Elvesdeck by now. My conclusion thusfar is that I would rather add a 4th NO maindeck, but for those who are already maxed out on NO's...

Yeah I know. The question is: where do you find space for a one-off Garruk?
But still, the abilities Caller of The Wild has does reminds of Glimpse, Zenith and NO. At least there's one thing you can do with it: pay 4GG to "cast" the Progenitus in your hand.


Also, the observation that Elves is now an aggro-deck with combo is absolutely right. It might even be a midrange-deck since it's defensive abilities actually defends us before we hit the "Overrun". Sort of reminds me of my green deck with Aluren, Recycle and Overrrun it around Urza's block... And that's why I love my Elvesdeck: this totally reminds me of those days.


Anyhow! Just another two cents for a thought. Even if it's not good in Legacy, perhaps Caller of The Wild is our answer for a conversion to a Modern version of the deck?

[PendelSteven]

Oh myyyyy ... The spoilered Devotion-mechanic of Theros will bring up a nasty creature with 5/5 for GG for the formats #1 deck of colored permaments :)


(Double post for Headline)


Yup. Could definatly be interesting.


Also. It is confirmed that there will be a card that could be in Modern Masters. Of course, that could be a lot of cards, but since the rumour is already out that could be Thoughtseize, it is possiblie that is the card, which is good news for anyone interested in Thoughtseizes. Read: CT #5-8? :D

[Kayradis]

Im not 100% sure if Thoughtseize could be included.

Therapies are better for the flashback cost and the fact that they have to get rid of their multiples in the event of you naming the right card.
Still, i believe it's still debatable.

[Dice_Box]

Thoughtseize should, in my mind, only be used in addition to Therapy and not to replace it. The reason for that is that if you start relying on Seize, your skills with Therapy my suffer.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[trevaftw]

Went 3-0 tonight. Played Blue Zoo, ANT, and started with a bye. 4th round would've been esper stoneblade for 1st/2nd place but had to leave because of work. Will do small write-up tomorrow.

[Kayradis]

Went 2-2 last night.
Lost to my own stupidity against Merfolks and against 1-Land Belcher in Rd 4(Can't beat 20 goblins T1!)
Won against Jund(He flipped 2 Mindbreak Traps of his Bobs lategame) and 1-Land Belcher(stripped his hand and resolved Ruric Thar!)

I'm slowly going towards the 19 lands configuration. 18 is too tight.

[Zombie]

Mindbreak Trap against Elves? :'D

[Kayradis]

He used it game 2 against a GSZ for 8.
Wasn't expecting that.
He told me he was scared that I had a 1 of Grapeshot in the SB. I told him that I don't run that and I'd probably run Tendrils if I was doing some mad elves tech in that style.

[Dice_Box]

Mindbreak Trap against Elves? :'DHave had it done against me before. Sometimes people either do not understand the deck, or they understand it and do not have dedicated hate. So they pull storm hate against us because lets be honest, while not the most effective choice in the world, it does its job if you hit the right target.

[Lemnear]

Have had it done against me before. Sometimes people either do not understand the deck, or they understand it and do not have dedicated hate. So they pull storm hate against us because lets be honest, while not the most effective choice in the world, it does its job if you hit the right target.

I rather have the impression that many peeps still think it's a Glimpse-combo deck and they just need to cast MBT against the Grapeshot/Emrakul at the end of the chain...

[andrebonotto]

Mindbreak Trap against Elves? :'D

I've seen that more than enough, around here. This may be one of the symptoms of people still overvaluing Glimpse of Nature. :smile:

[Dice_Box]

Just wanting to double check a rule. At the resolution of a tutor we hold priority and the other person can not interact with us until after the card chosen is in play right? For example Pyroclasm needs to be played in response to NO not in response to Hoof entering play off NO because once NO resolves they get no chance to interact. Is that right?

[Kayradis]

If im not mislead, they can respond to the ETB trigger.

[Dice_Box]

If im not mislead, they can respond to the ETB trigger.Oh yea, forgot about that trigger, bugger. I have someone locally that is starting to run board sweepers because he is sick of losing to me and I was thinking I could hold priority and lock him out. Will have to come up with something else.

[Lemnear]

You can respond to the EtB-Trigger ... but not with a Sorcery like Pyroclasm ;)

[Dice_Box]

You can respond to the EtB-Trigger ... but not with a Sorcery like Pyroclasm ;)He uses another card, its one of the Rav Guild charms but I could not remember what one. I just know Pyro off the top of my head so I quoted it. Looked up the card it is Golgari Charm. I hate that thing.

[Kayradis]

Golgari Charm?

[Dice_Box]

Golgari Charm?http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=265385&type=card

Likes to wipe the table with it.

[Lemnear]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=265385&type=card

Likes to wipe the table with it.

You can use it yourself for defense or try out crap like Ghostway

[Dice_Box]

Can you regen after your toughness has been made 0?

[Zombie]

Can you regen after your toughness has been made 0?

Nope. A regeneration shield replaces the creature being destroyed by it being tapped, removed from combat and damage being removed from it. It says nothing about regenerating lost toughness points. Also, being Toughness 0 doesn't destroy a creature, it just gets moved to the GY.

[Kayradis]

You can, but they still die!

[Zombie]

You can, but they still die!

Not after, you don't get priority between creature gets To 0 and creature gets binned :tongue:

[Dice_Box]

Though so. So charm does not help me. I might try something tricksy like a buff instant or the Green FOW. Only need 4 critters to stay alive once I am hoofing. In all thought it's a meta choice I would rather not have to make.

Might just deal with the fact that one guy has an answer and start dealing with it if more answers start arising.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Lemnear]

You are obviously right. My bad

[Kayradis]

I think what can help us in the near future is the innability of opponent to understand all the triggers and abilities the creatures in the deck are capable of.
Yesterday, someone tried to bolt a visionary in response to the bounce, that I let resolve then casted Engineered Plage on elves while I have 2 x Symbiotes and 1 x Dryad in play.
Also, lot of people seems to have forgotten about Quirion. Im slowly thinking that she is "almost" better than birchlore half the time.
Both of those creatures are making our T2 extremely explosive with the right fuel in hand.

Could a 3/3 split between those be the right configuration?

[Dice_Box]

Symbiote's a cost right? You don't get a response from my understanding.

I run a 4/3 split in favour of Birchlore and agree Quirion has a hell of a power. She is stronger than most give her credit for. My issue with her is a bit like my issue with Llanowar, she has a strong but limited ability. While it's strong early, it tends to lose power as the game goes on.

But one thing I have seen is people not know what she does if you don't use her. Had a Goyf attack into a tapped hoof I cool untap and see the guy swear when I untapped it. So it has utility, but I feel it's utility lessens with each passing turn.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[MD.Ghost]

I think what can help us in the near future is the innability of opponent to understand all the triggers and abilities the creatures in the deck are capable of.
Yesterday, someone tried to bolt a visionary in response to the bounce, that I let resolve then casted Engineered Plage on elves while I have 2 x Symbiotes and 1 x Dryad in play.
Also, lot of people seems to have forgotten about Quirion. Im slowly thinking that she is "almost" better than birchlore half the time.
Both of those creatures are making our T2 extremely explosive with the right fuel in hand.

Could a 3/3 split between those be the right configuration?

I am also a quirion-supporter, but currently test the following configuration:
4 Bircholore (0 Llanowars)
3 Quirion
1 Arbor

Qurion is a good card, but i often sided out the 4th copy game 2 and 3, so i cut one for more explosive glimpse chains game 1. I am still undecided which build is better (compareable to 3 Bircholore, 4 ranger oder 2 bircholore, 1 llanowar, 1 quirion) - Most of the time i think, it doesn´t matter. You will win and lose games with each configuration and think "if i have card x..."

[Koby]

Symbiote's a cost right? You don't get a response from my understanding.
Yes, returning the Elf is part of the cost and cannot be responded to. The only target is what gets untapped; not the creature you return.


I run a 4/3 split in favour of Birchlore and agree Quirion has a hell of a power. She is stronger than most give her credit for. My issue with her is a bit like my issue with Llanowar, she has a strong but limited ability. While it's strong early, it tends to lose power as the game goes on.

I disagree vehemently here. Quirion Ranger is very powerful in the mid-late game. Between untapping DRS and reusing Dryad Arbor to fog attackers, I'd say that Quirion Ranger has more benefit than Birchlore Rangers.


But one thing I have seen is people not know what she does if you don't use her. Had a Goyf attack into a tapped hoof I cool untap and see the guy swear when I untapped it. So it has utility, but I feel it's utility lessens with each passing turn.
Again, and just like Symbiote, you can her her ability _EVERY_ turn, not just yours. This does make attacking into a small team unfavorable. This isn't to be discounted against decks with equipment. You will often win games where combat step is the only interaction an opponent has.

My current configuration is:
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves

Everytime I draw Llanowar Elves in the opening hand I am happy to see it. Mid-game it's another 1/1 for :g:, much like every other elf in the deck. You're likely going to be making mana with Birchlore or Heritage Druid at that point, and it continues to fuel Glimpse chains easily. SB plan against decks with sweepers for me usually means I cut: 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Heritage Druid, and a few other "high-commitment" chains that would feed badly into a sweeper.

[Dice_Box]

Again, and just like Symbiote, you can her her ability _EVERY_ turnI know I can, the reason I did not use her in my turn was to bate an attack I could block. I did not want to use the ability less I give up my plan.

I think you and I value Birchlore differently. I remember saying in the old thread he was the one card I wanted more of. I stand by that. He is to me a godsend. I have him hit the table and start having fun. The greatest gift he offers is black when I need it or speed when I need it. People will instantly try and remove a Heritage but could not care less about Birchlore. Thats something I like to use to my advantage. Also Morph is useful sometimes.

[nudon]

If you guys want maximum explosiveness game 1, use 4 NO, 4 birchlore, 4 quirion, 18 lands (4 cradle, 1 arbor), and 0 utility. The only change I would make at the moment is cutting the 4th quirion for another fetch. For those playing viridian shaman MD, I'd argue it's not really necessary since NO (and gsz) beats chalice all day long. Also, please post questions regarding card interactions/rulings in the appropriate section instead of on this thread.

[Koby]

I know I can, the reason I did not use her in my turn was to bate an attack I could block. I did not want to use the ability less I give up my plan.

I think you and I value Birchlore differently. I remember saying in the old thread he was the one card I wanted more of. I stand by that. He is to me a godsend. I have him hit the table and start having fun. The greatest gift he offers is black when I need it or speed when I need it. People will instantly try and remove a Heritage but could not care less about Birchlore. Thats something I like to use to my advantage. Also Morph is useful sometimes.

I understand now. Everytime I have used it on my opponent's turn, they have been surprised you can it use in then.

As for Birchlore; no I don't value it the way that has been expounded on in the last few pages. I prefer it more in a Glimpse focused deck rather than a NO focused deck. I've had experience with him in the old Summoner's Pact variation of Combo Elves, and even then we quickly cut it down to 3 copies. Granted, that was a different deck due to the changes that RTR brought to the table (DRS and Hoof); but I still see him providing that same utility in Glimpse chains. I've rarely had issues generating a lot of mana with only 2 copies.

I'm going to need a better argument for Birchlore Rangers in NO builds than "he produces mana". Llanowar Elves does that too and unconditionally.

[nudon]

I'm going to need a better argument for Birchlore Rangers in NO builds than "he produces mana". Llanowar Elves does that too and unconditionally.

In addition to the explosive glimpse chains you mentioned, he's great with cradle on turn 2. The standard number of cradles is now 4. This in conjunction with birchlore increases the probability of a t2 NO. Here's a following example of something I did last week:

T1: fetch->forest->gsz->arbor
T2: arbor->glimpse (FoW), forest->quirion ranger, bounce forest->untap arbor, arbor->birchlore, tap quirion+birchlore for 1, cradle for 3, NO->prog

Granted, that it was a god-hand. Lastly, the morph ability is very useful to get around CB and chalice. You're probably not on the prog plan but it's very hard to beat.

[Koby]

In addition to the explosive glimpse chains you mentioned, he's great with cradle on turn 2. The standard number of cradles is now 4. This in conjunction with birchlore increases the probability of a t2 NO. Here's a following example of something I did last week:

T2: NO->prog


Speed and explosive Glimpse chains; and NO for Progenitus. Not what I call exactly fitting in the same sentence. This is at best a turn 4 kill.

[nudon]

Speed and explosive Glimpse chains; and NO for Progenitus. Not what I call exactly fitting in the same sentence. This is at best a turn 4 kill.

Sorry if I was unclear but the point was that we've increased the number of cradles in the deck, making birchlores a lot better for an explosive turn 2. Whether that composes of glimpse chain, gsz tutoring, or NO->hoof/regal/prog is dependent on the hand/player. The last prog comment was in regards to morph being fodder for NO to get past CB/chalice.

[Koby]

Yep, still unconvinced. Unless the deck is being streamlined for Glimpse, there's no point to run 4 Birchlore Rangers. You're cutting out elements that make the deck more well rounded in order to push this creature to its max; and I don't think that's worth doing in this (varied) metagame.

[nudon]

If you want more utility in the form of v. shaman/ooze/sliver, fair enough. However, I think birchlore helps push the fundamental combo turn closer to 2 while being a better top deck than llanowar. It also helps DRS generate mana the turn it comes down when RiP is in play and provides off color mana for sb cards.

[Absolutflipz]

If you want more utility in the form of v. shaman/ooze/sliver, fair enough. However, I think birchlore helps push the fundamental combo turn closer to 2 while being a better top deck than llanowar. It also helps DRS generate mana the turn it comes down when RiP is in play and provides off color mana for sb cards.

I agree with Koby here.

Also, I don't get why so many of the same people that are on the "This isnt a ultra-focused glimpse combo deck" also favor playing 4 Birchlores. That's Birchlores main role...adding more explosiveness to the deck.

Birchlore also causes you to play directly into postboard cards that are best against us, ....sweepers. (i.e. he promotes playing stuff out)

Also, you cant NO a morph'ed Birchlore, it's colorless. And please tell me you're not referencing some weird scenario where Rest in Peace is in play...? And a 2/2 is not beating any chalice or CB deck...ever. And a topdecked Llanowar vs Birchlore in any late game scenario is the same thing...there's no appreciable bonus.

Additionally, no one seems to mention or understand that the Untap part of Quirion Ranger is huge for having sufficient un-summoning sick attackers available when you actually get to cast Craterhoof after comboing or NO'ing, which generally involves lots of tapping of guys.

If you really wanna push the combo to turn 2, add in a crop rotation and a couple Elvish Spirit Guides and have a ball.

[Dice_Box]

Also, I don't get why so many of the same people that are on the "This isnt a ultra-focused glimpse combo deck" also favor playing 4 Birchlores. That's Birchlores main role...adding more explosiveness to the deck.Because he helps outside that combo and while that combo is no longer the be all and end all of the deck, its still in there and its still a threat. While not the main route taken, it does no harm to NO to have a second out.

[Lemnear]

I don't think that accelerating the deck's Glimpse and NO (especially for Sideboard Fatties) while creating several Black mana, which turn DRS into a huge threat with Quirion and Symbiote, is a bad thing.

It's doubtful, if you want to go into the midgame with Elves any try grinding out the game with 1/1's.

[Koby]

It doesn't hurt having Birchlore Rangers. It hurts the deck having fewer flex slots. I don't think the 4th copy of Birchlore Rangers is going to be effective compared to Scavenging Ooze, Priest of Titanita/Elvish Archdruid, or Viridian Shaman. The circumstances in which you need to play turn 2 NO are extraordinarily rare.

(1) T1 forest and Quirion, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf, untap with Quirion and again tap for 3 mana
(2) T1 forest and Nettle, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf and again tap for 3 mana
(3) T1 forest and random elf, T2 play Cradle and random elf plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana (1 mana left from Cradle)
(4) T1 forest and mana elf, T2 play Cradle and Birchlore and random elf, tap Cradle for 3 and two guys for 1
(5) T1 forest and random elf, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play Symbiote, return tapped elf and untap other tapped elf, replay returned elf and finaly tap them for 3 mana.
(6) T1 forest->mana elf, T2 ranger+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, bounce forest and untap mana elf
(7) T1 forest->mana elf, T2 symbiote + cmc1 elf off mana elf and forest, Cradle for 3, bounce cmc1 elf and untap mana elf
(8) T1 forest->ranger, T2 ranger+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, play another elf and bounce 2 forests to untap 2 elves, tap for 3
(9) T1 forest->ranger, T2 cmc1 elf+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, play 2 cmc1 elves, bounce forest and untap elf, tap for 3
(10) T1 forest -> GSZ for Arbor, T2 Cradle, Ranger = 4 mana

So, from these possible Turn 2 NO scenarios, only one involves Birchlore Rangers, and the several need Cradle. The remainder need Nettle Sentinel and Heritage Druid. I'm sure there's more scenarios, but these are the ones we came up with on the first page of this thread.

A turn 3 Natural Order is laughingly easy regardless of what your hand composes of. I'm still failing to see how the addition or reliance on Birchlore Rangers is a big fucking deal with casting Natural Order on turn 2 consistently. Remember, we recognize Birchlore Rangers are useful as part of the deck. I don't reason that the 3rd or 4th copy are "OMG I NEEDZ IT NAO!!1" in order to make the deck competitive. Making black mana is useful, but that's why we also run an excess of fetchlands and Bayou.

[Lemnear]

For my Taste too much scenarios (all?) require 2 lands which isn't always the case and a reason why I run 19 lands to make the deck more stable. However, 1-landers with Birchlore have potential and are insane with a Nettle in addition

[igri_is_a_bk]

For my Taste too much scenarios (all?) require 2 lands which isn't always the case and a reason why I run 19 lands to make the deck more stable. However, 1-landers with Birchlore have potential and are insane with a Nettle in addition

But check this out. One-landers with Quirions are more likely and more efficient at making two mana.

[Koby]

I certainly appreciate the approach that wants to square up the list and stick to the meat & potatos. For decks like Sneak & Show, this makes sense - cut the cute bullshit and focus on the important things. However, in a combo deck with this much tutoring (4 GSZ 4 NO) you can afford a little bit of flexibility in the creature department.

The point of contention that I see with the decklists are:

18 vs 19 land?
Keep the flex slots or square up the deck (all 4-ofs)?
Amount of fetches to run in the mana base?
Determination of Ruric Thar main?
Sideboard card that impact a variety of matchups?

[Lemnear]

But check this out. One-landers with Quirions are more likely and more efficient at making two mana.

Not a question of "or" but of "and"

[igri_is_a_bk]

1. 18 vs 19 land?
2. Keep the flex slots or square up the deck (all 4-ofs)?
3. Amount of fetches to run in the mana base?
4. Determination of Ruric Thar main?
5. Sideboard card that impact a variety of matchups?

Here's my opinion on these.
1. 19 land - based on the math we've seen here and lots of personal experience.
2. Our most explosive draw is still slower than other combos' most explosive draw, so why bother with it game one? I really don't think add'l Birchlores will win you more games against combo than tools like V. Shaman will against shit like Jitte, Chalice, E. Bridge, etc.
3. Minimum of nine and I say it gets better up to 11, but you'd be pushing 20 lands at that point.
4. Haven't tried him, but I can't imagine him in my deck before Teeg.
5. This part sucks because our bad MUs are on opposite ends of the legacy spectrum, but they are each heavily noncreature-spell based. Thorn and Thalia are still the best I can think to play that hits both combo and Miracles.


Not a question of "or" but of "and"

Not to anyone who has cut a Quirion, which I've said is a bad idea forever.

[Zombie]

@Koby
I may have missed it, but did your scenario listing include:
T1 Forest, mana Elf, T2 Quirion, Cradle (2 mana), twiddle Elf (4 mana) => NO? A similar scenario works with Birchlore IIRC, but does need an extra dude.

[amppyou]

Birchlore has upside imo because he allows your utility elves to tap for mana when they otherwise would not. Heritage Druid does the job 100% more effectively, but she (along with symbiote) is a lightning rod for removal.

I like Qranger as a 3-of personally because I run 19 lands, making the proposition of bouncing a forest less appealing. Untapping guys is huge when you need extra guys to swing with hoof, but I believe that 7 effects still gets the job done quite well.

There is no need to freak out about why some people play 4 of this while others run 4 of that. Arguments can be made in favor of either one. It comes down to preference.

[thefreakaccident]

Things come down to preference in slower decks, not faster ones. I.E. there is a 'most efficient' configuration, and once that's figured out, it is foolish to play anything else. It's the nature of the format, get used to it. So when you say things like the numbers in an elf deck come down to preference, you simply haven't tested the decklist enough to figure the configurations properly for your given matchups.

[nudon]

Also, you cant NO a morph'ed Birchlore, it's colorless. And please tell me you're not referencing some weird scenario where Rest in Peace is in play...? And a 2/2 is not beating any chalice or CB deck...ever. And a topdecked Llanowar vs Birchlore in any late game scenario is the same thing...there's no appreciable bonus.

Wow... I'm obviously referring to morphing a birchlore on t3 to NO on turn 4 through a CB/chalice... Yes, you can do this with arbor or visionary but this provides more outs. The RiP is a representation of anytime there aren't lands to eat. A topdeck birchlore gives colored mana, can be a 2/2, generates mana immediately, and combos with glimpse. How is this the same as llanowar??? Please read carefully next time.


Here's my opinion on these.
1. 19 land - based on the math we've seen here and lots of personal experience.
2. Our most explosive draw is still slower than other combos' most explosive draw, so why bother with it game one? I really don't think add'l Birchlores will win you more games against combo than tools like V. Shaman will against shit like Jitte, Chalice, E. Bridge, etc.
3. Minimum of nine and I say it gets better up to 11, but you'd be pushing 20 lands at that point.
4. Haven't tried him, but I can't imagine him in my deck before Teeg.
5. This part sucks because our bad MUs are on opposite ends of the legacy spectrum, but they are each heavily noncreature-spell based. Thorn and Thalia are still the best I can think to play that hits both combo and Miracles.



Not to anyone who has cut a Quirion, which I've said is a bad idea forever.

1. I run 18 lands but compensate for it by having 2 forests and 4 quirion rangers.
2. With 4x gsz/NO, I don't really care about chalice. DRS untaps beat bridge. I can see shaman being useful in a heavy jitte metagame but I haven't needed it. Our explosive draws still beat fast combo if on the draw so why not increase those percentages?
3. I run 8 but really want 9. However, I think that 2nd forest is a nice luxury to guarantee you have 4 mana on turn 3 against wasteland decks. I can see cutting the 4th quirion for fetch #9 too.
4. Terrible in the main deck. He's dedicated storm hate. You won't be able to resolve NO against a competent RUG player.
5. I like thorn because it's not susceptible to Karakas and removal.

[amppyou]

Things come down to preference in slower decks, not faster ones. I.E. there is a 'most efficient' configuration, and once that's figured out, it is foolish to play anything else. It's the nature of the format, get used to it. So when you say things like the numbers in an elf deck come down to preference, you simply haven't tested the decklist enough to figure the configurations properly for your given matchups.

Using the grounds of your argument, Llanowar Elves is far more efficient as a mana producer than DRS, so DRS shouldn't be played.

[Koby]

@Koby
I may have missed it, but did your scenario listing include:
T1 Forest, mana Elf, T2 Quirion, Cradle (2 mana), twiddle Elf (4 mana) => NO? A similar scenario works with Birchlore IIRC, but does need an extra dude.

Yes, this works too. The only caveat (and that's a realy big caveat), is that you need it to be Llanowar Elves. With DRS you would need two fetchlands in the graveyard to pull this off. While it's not unrealistic (fetch turns 1 and 2), it does add more constraints to this type of opening.


Using the grounds of your argument, Llanowar Elves is far more efficient as a mana producer than DRS, so DRS shouldn't be played.

That is exactly I've been saying. If the goal is to have an early Natural Order or a big Glimpse chain early, Llanowar Elves (or its cousins) are more useful than DRS. DRS only shines when you need to start grinding life points. The same could be said for decks packing RIP against us (why they would do so is beyond me).

[thefreakaccident]

Using the grounds of your argument, Llanowar Elves is far more efficient as a mana producer than DRS, so DRS shouldn't be played.

Learn to read before you make baseless comparisons, as my comment was with regards to rigorous testing to determine what cards deserve their slots and in what exact numbers. I.E. No vacuum.

[amppyou]

Learn to read before you make baseless comparisons, as my comment was with regards to rigorous testing to determine what cards deserve their slots and in what exact numbers.

Rigorous testing from many different members on this thread have led to different conclusions. Some people still play 3 Natural Order (including the author of this primer), while the general consensus is that 4 natural orders leads to more efficient craterhoofing. The baseless comparison was an attempt to make a point, which you clearly missed. Go troll another thread, we have no need of your generalities.

[thefreakaccident]

The fact of the matter is that different card choices will provide different results given enough time to figure out exactly what those results entail. The differences you speak of resulting from testing is a focus on different matchups by different people for different metagames. However, I promise you, in regards to specific matchups/metagames there will be a 'best' configuration. And if you are using this forum as a basis for a 'standard' legacy metagame, there will always be a 'best' configuration, whether or not you guys are willing to do the testing necessary to come to a consensus.

[Dice_Box]

Man we have done a large amount of testing. Why do you think the deck has changed? I mean we have lists, test what works, talk among ourselves and make changes to the deck list. Now while we do not totally agree we have a "Core" set of card. That's the deck your looking for. The changes from list to list is our flex slots in action.

We have our "Best" list but no meta will be the same. Here in Australia the meta is different to the states for example. Go back and do a touch of light reading, then come back and join us in discussions because right now I fear your not helping.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[thefreakaccident]

Lets look at the end of my first post in this little discussion, shall we?


So when you say things like the numbers in an elf deck come down to preference, you simply haven't tested the decklist enough to figure the configurations properly for your given matchups.

You should have a variety of configurations, yes, but those configurations should be applicable to different matchups/metagames. I.E. a variety of decklists are needed for a variety of expected matchups in order to have 'the best' chance of winning. So when people have differences in card choice, it better be to strengthen matchups they expect to be moire prevalent.

I.E. There are never flex spots, you either know exactly what cards are needed for specific metagames/matchups and in what numbers, or you don't. Simple Truth. Then you can build a 'best deck list' vs maverick for instance, or miracles, or whatever, but, in that context, of that matchup, there will always be a superior configuration.

[Dice_Box]

Lets look at the end of my first post in this little discussion, shall we?Sure lets have a look at it. You are stating that you're looking at different builds for different matches. Something we do all the time. Looking for builds to suit our meta's. We have not tested all the possibilities no. No one ever will because the format is never stagnant. But we test against what we have locally or what we Proxy up and then make choices.




You should have a variety of configurations, yes, but those configurations should be applicable to different matchups/metagames. I.E. a variety of decklists are needed for a variety of expected matchups in order to have 'the best' chance of winning. So when people have differences in card choice, it better be to strengthen matchups they expect to be moire prevalent.We do this as I said above. I do not understand why you are repeating the same statement that more or less says: "Different Meta's need different builds". This is not shocking news to anyone.


I.E. There are never flex spots, you either know exactly what cards are needed for specific metagames/matchups and in what numbers, or you don't. Simple Truth.There is a CORE deck. A set of cards everyone agrees on. They do not change. Then after those cards you have the option to mix and match the other slots as you need to to suit specific metagames/matchups (Read meta). These are known as flex slots. This is simply the facts. You do not have to like them, hell do whatever you damn well please, but the facts are the facts. Those facts are that this deck, like all others does not have a 60 card core. It has less than 60 cards and people use the remaining slots to personalise the deck to suit them and their situation. Thus Flexible choices to suit local environmental needs.

[spetznaz]

Played Elves today in a tournament today organized by a local playgroup. 48 players is a petty good turnout for legacy in Stockholm. Meta I expected was more fair decks (RUG, BUG, Maverick, Death and Taxes etc) and less combo. Tried out the 4 Birchlore Rangers decklist with no Llanowar.

My decklist:
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Priest of Titiania

4 Glimpse Of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Savannah
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thorn of Ametyst
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg


Round 1 against Shardless Bug
Game 1, Glimpse resolves turn 4, Hoof for the win
Game 2 was grindy and I lost to attrition
Game 3 was grindy as well and went to time. My Scavenging Ooze won me the game in extra turns
1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 against 4 color cascade
Game 1 was quick.
Game 2 NO --> Progenitus
2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 against Death and Taxes
Game 1, Turn 2 Glimpse sets up for turn 3 Hoof
Game 2, My guys get killed, my lands destroyed..
Game 3, My opponent mulligans to 5, I play NO --> Prog
3-0 (6-2)

Round 4 against RUG Delver
Game 1. Turn 2 NO resolves
Game 2. He had Delver that flipped, Daze for my turn 1 Deathrite and FOW to slow me down even more
Game 3. Opponent mulligans to 5. Scavenging Ooze wins me the match.
4-0 (8-3)

Round 5
Draw against UR Delver Pyromancer
4-0-1

Round 5
Draw against RUG or BUG, don't remember what he played
4-0-2

Top 8 and second seed!

Top 8 against Elves.
All 3 games are the same. The player that stars wins on turn 3.. Good for me because I was the top seed in my bracket. In game 3 I played blind Cabal Therapy and made him discard 2 Glimpse of Nature
5-0-2 (10-4)

Top 4 against Zoo
Game 1. Lost due to him having all answers to my important guys and a clock that is is Wild Nactal
Game 2. One of the most grindy games I have played with the deck. Eventually won on beatdown after he had to trade our 6/6 Ooze for eachother.
Game 3. Turn 4 NO-->Progenitus for the win!

After a good split in the finals I left the venue with a trophy, a spot in the end of year finals, a Savannah and an Underground Sea.



Some thoughts:
Never missed Llanowar Elves
Scavenging Ooze is a powerhouse in this deck
Boarded in every card except for my Thorn at least once so my board seems solid. On the other hand I dodged combo all day.
Boarding is harder when you don't have the Fyndhorn Elves to remove, that was one card I almost always boarded out.
3 Abrupt Decay feels good, you draw approximately one per game where you don't Glimpse like crazy

[nudon]

Just split top 4 at the MTGDeals legacy event today. After 6 swiss rounds and playing in the top 8, I'm pretty tired so I'll post a tournament report tomorrow. Bottom line: 4 birchlore + 4 NO is the real deal.

[jnosrati]

Hey what would you guys say is the best hate against you guys that isnt a boardwipe effect. I'm looking for sideboard cards for blue zoo against your decks, but all i have is submerge and forked bolt. Thanks!

[Lemnear]

Hey what would you guys say is the best hate against you guys that isnt a boardwipe effect. I'm looking for sideboard cards for blue zoo against your decks, but all i have is submerge and forked bolt. Thanks!

It's interresting that you ask in this thread what the most powerful hate is against the deck we push in development. Kinda cocky, but I like that.

Tbh, the problem is that blue Zoo is an aggressive Aggro deck like Elves but a lot slower and less flexible to switch roles due to it's nature. Ergo you need something that helps your bigger creatures. Forked Bolt is a start.

Damping Matrix is a backbreaker

[jnosrati]

It's interresting that you ask in this thread what the most powerful hate is against the deck we push in development. Kinda cocky, but I like that.


Damping Matrix is a backbreaker

sounds like me...haha. What do you think of suppression field? The strategy seems a little off, since you can still NO.

[Dice_Box]

Cursed Totem and CotV are two cards I hate when playing Elves. Not sure what I can say about Zoo.

Suppression field will not do much, take Totem over Field.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Suppression field will not do much, take Totem over Field.

Fetches, Quirion, Wirewood, Deathrite, and we have zero answers to it in our mb. It beat me the one time I played it.

Did anyone watch that game two with Chrandersen vs. OmniTell? He resolved NO, which was going to be nonlethal and still got Hoof instead of Teeg. He proceeded to lose next turn. I was all :confused:

[amppyou]

Hey what would you guys say is the best hate against you guys that isnt a boardwipe effect. I'm looking for sideboard cards for blue zoo against your decks, but all i have is submerge and forked bolt. Thanks!

I would agree with DiceBox - totem is the way to go. Also, i assume you run grafdigger's cage if you're on zoo. Side that in as well, as it shuts down GSZ for viridian shaman as an out to totem, blanking 7-8 cards in elves.

[Dice_Box]

True, but it will not stop us combing if we have the chance. If Suppression field is dropped early it can be a pain, but its not the same as simply saying, "You no longer have Heritage, Symbiote, Qurion..."

[Lemnear]

I agree with running Totem. Forgot there was a cheaper option to Damping Matrix. Suppresion Field isn't unreasonable because it has applications against other matchups too.

[Dice_Box]

Mono Green, 11 land elf deck on the stream right now. Who the hell runs 11 lands with 3 of them being Cradle and Drayd?

[Zombie]

This Round 5 thing?

[Tao]

Someone who scoops to Emrakul for no apparent reason. Or did I miss something?

[Zombie]

Didn't. Except that apparently you can make 4-0 in an Open with Leyline of Lifeforce in your board.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Didn't he have Visionary to at least see what else he could get? And if he had a Priest or Archdruid then he could have cast Hoof next turn thanks to Quirion.

Edit: I can't watch this shit. Seriously.

[Koby]

Didn't. Except that apparently you can make 4-0 in an Open with Leyline of Lifeforce in your board.

After playing with 18 lands yesterday, I could easily see playing only 11. He might also be running Land Grant. perhaps?

EDIT: Also, Emrakul with 2 Hoofs. I don't know what to think now.

[Dice_Box]

I want to see this deck list. Its a crazy deck.

Holy shit did you all see that?

[igri_is_a_bk]

I completely took back what I said and am so fucking happy I didn't turn it off. Hilarious.... that was just hilarious.

[Dzra]

Ban Show and Tell!



Oh... Hold on a sec....

[amppyou]

I completely took back what I said and am so fucking happy I didn't turn it off. Hilarious.... that was just hilarious.


could you do a quick recap of the highlights? missed that stream.

[Dzra]

could you do a quick recap of the highlights? missed that stream.

Long story short...

Elves VS Hypergenesis

G1, Hypergenesis kills Elves on t2 with Emrakul and friends.

G2, both players keep hands with no mana-producing lands. Durdling happens. Gerry eventually Spirit Guides into Hypergenesis and puts Griselbrand into play. Elves puts in Emrakul, Craterhoof, Craterhoof. Smash.

G3, Gerry Show and Tells on t2 and both players put an Emrakul into play. Wah waah~

[Dice_Box]

Game 2:

Hypergenesis is played.
Hyper Drops Brand
Elf drops Emmy, two Hoof and wins

Game 3:
Hyper Drops SnT, Emmy. Elf drops Emmy off the same SnT. Hyper passes.
Elf attacks with Emmy and wipes the board of the Hyper player in what is the funniest show of Kama the Hyper player could get for being the kind of jerk that plays SnT.

Was great.

[Koby]

Anyways...

I also played at the MTG Deals tournament. We had 38 people and a solid healthy 6 rounds. Quick & dirty:

Deck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman

1 Crop Rotation
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
9 fetchland

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ruric Thar
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Scavenging Ooze

Round 1 - Miracle Blade (2-0) -- he did not get lucky with finding terminus.
Round 2 - Blue Zoo (2-1) -- Ruric Thar is a boss with Vigilance
Round 3 - Punishing Jund (1-2) -- flooded in G3 against three Punishing Fire. Drew 1 creature in 7 turns, but 5 lands.
Round 4 - Dredge (1-2) -- each game I lost he played 2x LED
Round 5 - No show (2-0) :\
Round 6 - Punishing Jund (1-2) -- the winner makes Top 8; we split the first two games. G3 I have Natural Order but can't generate 4 mana against a recurring Punishing Fire. Turn after I lose 3 creatures, I topdeck Cradle that would have resolved and gotten Ruric Thar to stop the PFires recursion. #rage

The Viridian Shaman was underutilized, but I stand by the decision to keep it. I could easily cut a fetchland for Priest of Titania or 3rd Birchlore; possibly even the Crop Rotation.

[amppyou]

@Koby @Nudon

were you guys at the MTGdeals tournament 2 weeks ago? I didn't see anyone else running elves that day, but I could be mistaken. Congrats on no terminus, I loathe that matchup.

[Koby]

@Koby @Nudon

were you guys at the MTGdeals tournament 2 weeks ago? I didn't see anyone else running elves that day, but I could be mistaken. Congrats on no terminus, I loathe that matchup.

It was yesterday. I never felt like I was out of the game against Miracles. I played it really conservatively as to not overextend. Value NO for Craterhoof was used just to pressure rather than kill.

[Dice_Box]

Do you feel you would have gotten more value from Thar if he had of been main?

[Koby]

Do you feel you would have gotten more value from Thar if he had of been main?

Not particularly. Of all the matches I played, I only lost to Jund in Round 6 in G1. This was particularly because my opponent cast 3 Lilianas while beating down with Goyf, nor did I have Natural Order. Well that's not totally true: I lost to Dredge in G1 on the draw after he had half his deck, 6 Zombies, and I had no hand; I was effectively dead on Turn 1.

[amppyou]

It was yesterday. I never felt like I was out of the game against Miracles. I played it really conservatively as to not overextend. Value NO for Craterhoof was used just to pressure rather than kill.

yeah, there was another one about 2 weeks ago as well. I wasn't able to make it yesterday due to work, though. Out of curiosity, what is your LGS? I'm down in Tustin, and the MTGdeals events are pretty much the only tournaments available to me.

[Koby]

yeah, there was another one about 2 weeks ago as well. I wasn't able to make it yesterday due to work, though. Out of curiosity, what is your LGS? I'm down in Tustin, and the MTGdeals events are pretty much the only tournaments available to me.

Majestix CCG off the 55 in Costa Mesa.

[Absolutflipz]

I'm starting to feel like 2 copies of Choke belong in the sideboard as a very high-impact sideboard card. Miracle, RUG, BUG, possibly other archetypes. The green blood moon.

[Lemnear]

I'm starting to feel like 2 copies of Choke belong in the sideboard as a very high-impact sideboard card. Miracle, RUG, BUG, possibly other archetypes. The green blood moon.

I like that

[Dice_Box]

As do I, I like it and Library. My side is going to take some rebuilding once all my mail arrives.

[amppyou]

I'm starting to feel like 2 copies of Choke belong in the sideboard as a very high-impact sideboard card. Miracle, RUG, BUG, possibly other archetypes. The green blood moon.

sweet. let us know how the testing goes. I know that Miracles has taken painstaking steps to blank choke in the past- mystic gate, seat of the synod, less reliance on tundra.

[Dice_Box]

For those that missed it, the replay is on now.

[Absolutflipz]

For those that missed it, the replay is on now.

Watching...wow...and somehow he's running hot as hell at 6-1.

And he's really running 11 lands? 4 of which are cradle/arbor?

[Dice_Box]

No 2 Cradle, 1 Arbor and 3 Elvish Sprits. Then add 8 basic you have his mana.

[Lemnear]

6-1 with that manabase? Somethings fishy...

Anybody has a decklist/link/link-to-Stream?

[Dice_Box]

The stream is live, the replay is over. As of now I have no link to a list. The only reason I know what the Mana base is is because it was commented on by Adam Prosak and I agreed with his WTF moment when he saw it.

[nudon]

Here's the link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26646-3rd-Time-s-the-Charm-Top-4-at-MTGDeals-Monthly-Legacy-8-31-2013) to my tournament report.

[nudon]

yeah, there was another one about 2 weeks ago as well. I wasn't able to make it yesterday due to work, though. Out of curiosity, what is your LGS? I'm down in Tustin, and the MTGdeals events are pretty much the only tournaments available to me.

I wasn't able to go to the one 2 weeks ago due to family errands. My LGS is actually MTGDeals but I am unable to go often due to work and other things.

[Lemnear]

Can't get over it: some of us face mana-issues with 18 lands and you tell me there's a player that goes 6-1 with 8 Basics + 3 ESG's + 1 Arbor

That's 2 less IMS (sans Arbor and Cradle) compared to 18-lands, with 3 IMS being one-shots. Considering mulligans and removal against ESG -> Llanowar openings, I suspect a few sleight of hands to make up for that.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Won a small 4 round event with the little green guys today. I had won with Elves three weeks previously, then had two awful tournaments with ANT and MUD, so I switched back to my favorite combo deck for today.

4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Priest of Titania
1 Llanowar Elves

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
3 Crop Rotation

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
8 Fetches

SB

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar
1 Priest of Titania
1 Emrakul
2 Scavenging Ooze



Round 1 vs. Eric with Deathblade

Game 1 Eric plays a Thoughtseize, a Stoneforge Mystic getting Batterskull, and cheats in the skull. That's about all he did this game. I play some guys, do a bunch of tricks with Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Visionary, and friends, and NO into Hoof for the win. No contest.

Out 1 Priest of Titania, 1 Elvish Visionary, 1 Something Else, In 3 Abrupt Decay. For some reason I did not bring in the 4th NO and Prog.

Game 2 I play conservatively to not get blown out by Perish or Engineered Plague. The TO was being incredibly pissy all day because he wanted the rounds to go fast so he could leave. Normally he's a chill guy but today he was a complete jerk. He gave me shit about forgetting to attack for a couple extra points of damage during this game, not that it mattered. Even had I wanted to take notes it would have been a huge pain because the TO would have gone ballistic if I was taking even more time writing notes. Eric played a Sword of Feast and Famine and I decayed it EOT. Other than that he got out a DRS, Stoneforge Mystic, and Batterskull. At one point I tried to play Regal Force but a well-timed Wasteland on my Dryad Arbor left me with only 6 mana so I was forced to pass the turn like a chump as my hand was Regal Force, Craterhoof Behemoth. I won next turn through Eric's Mystic, DRS, and Batterskull. Well I would have but time was called and Eric conceded. The TO once again was a jackass and tried to record it as a 1-1 draw somehow, but when pairings were up my second round opponent thought a mistake was made and his hunch was right so everyone got re-paired.

1-0 2-0

Round 2 vs. Scott with Twelvepost

I love playing against this guy because I am always using a deck with a good matchup against him. However, Game 1 as I NO into Hoof for lethal, he responds by spinning his Sensei's Divining Top to get a Crop Rotation, plays it using a DRS (wtf?) and gets Glacial Chasm. In the following turns while I durdle unable to damage him, he plays Thespian Stage copying Chasm and plays Venser bouncing Chasm to his hand. I concede to this bullshit and we're on to Game 2. This was the only time I ever lost to Scott playing Elves. Fortunately, this is exactly the kind of thing I stuck Emrakul in the board for.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Elvish Visionary In 1 Emrakul, 1 Priest of Titania

Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and I and worried at this point because I might actually lose a very easy matchup. Luckily my 5 is excellent. I play some guys and NO into Hoof while Scott has no mana open.

Game 3 I play double Glimpse on turn 2 off Cradle. The first gets Flusterstormed but the second resolves and I draw some cards and play some dudes. Next turn I play a Joraga Warcaller kicked a few times and swing for lethal.

2-0 4-1

Round 3 vs. Ryan with Punishing Jund

Game 1 is absolutely ridiculous. Ryan sets up the Punishing Grove combo turn 2 and starts burning my elves. Luckily he only has Grove for red mana for a little while. He hits me with a couple Hymn to Tourachs and eventually kills all my guys between Fires, Bolt, Decay, and a Maelstrom Pulse. However, he has no threats for a long time. Eventually he plays a DRS and a Goyf. I topdeck Glimpses and lands for a million turns until I have no fetchable lands left in my deck. I finally draw a creature and go off with double Glimpse. I draw a lot of cards and win. I count my graveyard after the battle. Final death tally: twelve (!) elves, a Symbiote, and Dryad Arbor. Damn! Elves sure can recover awesomely.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Priest of Titania In 2 Scavenging Ooze

Game 2 Ryan mulls to 5 and his only land for a couple turns is a Bayou. He hits me with an Inquisition of Kozilek and later a Hymn to Tourach but it doesn't matter because I go off with Glimpse to refill my hand and fill the board and I NO next turn for the win.

After I finished this round (Game 1 took a million years) others are still playing because there's a person playing Hide Tide and he is not very familiar with it. The TO complains a lot about shit taking too long, blah blah blah. We tell him to chill out but he won't. He threatens to make the turn time limit one minute when active player is called. One other guy besides me, Mike, is undefeated so we know we're going to play. I jokingly ask him if he wants to go get some drinks when the High Tide player begins his combo turn. He goes "Drinks? Really? What kind of drinks?" We actually considered it for a second but it was too early in the evening.

Round 4 vs. Mike with RUG Delver

These games aren't even close. Game 1 he Gitaxian Probes me turn 1 and I'm like shit it's combo but then he fetches a Volcanic Island and plays a Delver. He cantrips a couple times, Delver refuses to flip for him, and he Stifles a DRS activation (lol). I play some guys and wait. Mike soon plays out his whole hand of threats, I believe double Goyf and a Mongoose after bolting a Symbiote and Forked Bolting a Visionary. Seeing only one card in his hand, I play Natural Order, hoping that one card isn't Daze. It isn't.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Priest of Titania In 2 Scavenging Ooze

Game 2 Mike has a really slow clock with only a single Nimble Mongoose. I play some guys and he kills a couple with burn and cantrips a couple times into another Mongoose. I make a bunch of mana and play Scavenging Ooze when Mike has two cards in hand since I have some creatures in the grave and Mike has exactly threshold. The cards turn out to be Force of Will and Delver. I make more mana and hardcast Hoof for the win.

When places are announced, the TO once again annoys me by saying "And Tom got first. I don't know how that happened but whatever." I was like "By only losing a single game all day, that's how." Jerk.

Props:
Drawing my one-of Gaea's Cradle almost every game, and having a Crop Rotation the couple times I didn't
Natural Order of course
My opponents being good guys and making the games fun
Comboing out and winning against Jund after he killed 14 of my creatures

Slops:
The TO for being a douchebag
High Tide for taking forever as always

Thanks for reading!

[Koby]

Can't get over it: some of us face mana-issues with 18 lands and you tell me there's a player that goes 6-1 with 8 Basics + 3 ESG's + 1 Arbor

That's 2 less IMS (sans Arbor and Cradle) compared to 18-lands, with 3 IMS being one-shots. Considering mulligans and removal against ESG -> Llanowar openings, I suspect a few sleight of hands to make up for that.

You only need one land. Mulligans to five can still win games. Also winning games without casting a spell are en vogue these days.

[Lemnear]

Jep, 8 lands for T1 plays are the real deal /sarcasm

[Dice_Box]

Elves finished 5th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58806
Thats a fairly traditional build. Something I would have expected more of at the start of the year.

Edit:
Here is the "11 land" build. Finished 33rd. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58818

[Lemnear]

4 Priest, 4 Archdruid, 4 DRS, 1, Llanowar, 4 Fetches ... come on ... I can't even imagine him generating 2 mana on a constant Basis to cast any of his mana-Lords.

[Koby]

4 Priest, 4 Archdruid, 4 DRS, 1, Llanowar, 4 Fetches ... come on ... I can't even imagine him generating 2 mana on a constant Basis to cast any of his mana-Lords.

The best part was only playing 3 Wirewood Symbiote. Don't you wish you had an opportunity to play in SCG Opens like this? Even a terrible list can cash!

[Dice_Box]

I wish I could. We have one, just one, GP a year here. No SCG, no IQ. Nothing. Then I watch games like that and scream. I am jelly because I want to play more. Maybe I should move...

[lordofthepit]

Round 5 - No show (2-0) :\


Are you talking about the Natural Order Show and Tell of two years ago, or did your opponent just flat out not show up?

[Lemnear]

The best part was only playing 3 Wirewood Symbiote. Don't you wish you had an opportunity to play in SCG Opens like this? Even a terrible list can cash!

I wish i could attend bigger tournaments. I can't even make it to Bazaar of Moxen this year :/

[Dice_Box]

How do people feel about using this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145080&d=1378001035) as a cheap Cradle? I mean once know some of you run under 4 for cost reasons, do you see yourselves running this?

[Zombie]

If it's the devotion land, then no. Too clunky. Has an activation cost and doesn't even produce green. It would be fine if the deck had less one drops, but it has a crapton of one drops.

[Dice_Box]

While that is true I would not be as quick as to say no. It makes green and has an ability that reads "Add {G} to your mana pool equal to the number of creatures you control -2". I mean it's a dead opening draw, but we mostly go off turn 3 and have a large amount of creatures in play at this time. Even on a slow run it would tap for 3 on turn 3.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Mr. Froggy]

Elves finished 5th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58806
Thats a fairly traditional build. Something I would have expected more of at the start of the year.

Edit:
Here is the "11 land" build. Finished 33rd. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58818

Budget deck is budget.

[Lemnear]

There you have it: it's a Cradle which produces less mana and needs mana to activate it. In a shitload of scenarios between having Symbiote, Visionary, Quirion and Nettle this thing creates 0 mana because you lack the initial mana. It's worse than a forest



Budget deck is budget.

Budget is one thing. Likely having to manipulate your draws to make archdruid playable off that manabase is another. I ran a simulation today for starting Grips which turn Priest/Archdruid live ... devastating. I can't explain the result.

[nudon]

While that is true I would not be as quick as to say no. It makes green and has an ability that reads "Add {G} to your mana pool equal to the number of creatures you control -2". I mean it's a dead opening draw, but we mostly go off turn 3 and have a large amount of creatures in play at this time. Even on a slow run it would tap for 3 on turn 3.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

Crop rotation.

You wanted some tourney reports to help you with certain match-ups. There's been several in the last few pages, including mine, if you're still interested.

[Dice_Box]

I am, I am going to sit down and take notes on each one this week. The reason I have not commented on them at all is because I am mostly on via my mobile and have limited time to read. Granted I did spend last night watching the stream so...

I did some play testing last week with a friend, this coming week we have two more friends coming to test with us so I want to test. I will read up before that point.

The cards I am most interested in testing are library and choke. If the deck did not main 8 or 9 fetches I would run Root maze. I am paying some real thought to seeing what happens against my playgroup if I cut back to mono green and ditch the fetches for it. Likely not a great plan but I will have fun testing it all the same.

About the new land. Not going to run it myself, was just putting my thoughts out there. I think in budget builds it could find a place, but I will drop the topic because this is not the place for it.

Lastly, thinking about what I have seen happen on SCG of late. Mostly the decks that are pushing cantrips to abuse Young Pyromancer. I am giving some serious thought to putting a Hoof side and Thar main. The defence against Delver is just icing. Still undecided though and the meta hear in Australia is likely to be different. Mostly because things don't change as fast here due to not having large events to push a strong need to adapt.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[PendelSteven]

Crop rotation.


Don't get me wrong: I love the once-banned-in-Legacy (!) Crop Rotation. Actually, I don't get why most people play 4 Cradle. I won't say that I don't want another Cradle, but I never, I repeat, never want a 4th Cradle in my deck. I know CR can get countered on the downside, but you can play CR after you've played a land this turn, which is the upside apart from that it's wasteland-protection and in a pinch can even help against Spreading Seas (although you have Quirion Ranger for that problem).

But... Cradle is not strictly better than the Nyx-land. By the way, since we now have a semi-reprint of Glimpse and a semi-reprint of Cradle, we just need a new Symbiote and Quirion and we can basicly play this, or a Simic variant of this deck in Modern.

The Nyx-land is actually not tapping for NumberOfCreatures-2, it's tapping for GinCastingCost-2.

Multani's Acolyte therefore actually makes it tap break-even. An Elvish Archdruid provides the same advantage.

Maybe suboptimal Elves with multiple G in their cost include:

Elvish Archdruid (Priest-variant)
Multani's Acolyte (Visionary-variant)

(the banned Rofellos)
Glissa, The Traitor (actually playable now with most Elves deck running DRS, Birchlore Rangers and Bayou)
Norwood Priestess (not even always strictly better than Natural Order for 2GG)

Elvish Champion

Deranged Hermit (actually not quite bad with Craterhoof in your deck)

Mul Daya Channelers

Gilt Leaf-Archdruid (alternate win-con: I'll steal all your lands. Thank you)
Wilt Leaf-Liege (already a sideboard-card in Death & Texas, mind you)

(Ambush Commander)

Eledamri, Lord Of Leaves
Viridian Corrupter (alternate Viridian Shaman)

(Thelon of Havenwood)
Lys Alan Huntmaster (again: not bad with Craterhoof in your deck)
(Allosaurus Rider)
Nissa's Chosen (excellent sacrifce target by the way)
Jagged-Scar Archer (can potentially tap to destroy an Iona)
Glissa Sunseeker
Jarad (can actually sacrifice a Craterhoofd to "deal" the last 5 damage)

Voice Of Woods (old-skool wincon ftw!)

(Ezuri's Bri... not in this deck, thank you)

Viridian Zealot
Yeva
Ezuri (an actual wincon btw)

(Masked admirers - cute with Cabal Therapy though)

and Elvish Soultiller



And... Can Joraga Warcaller and Treespeaker cost more than G with Multikicker?



While this looks like a list of Elves that didn't make it to the team, if you focus on the Cradle 2.0 it might actually be as good as the current build. Keep your eyes open, people!

[PendelSteven]

I wish i could attend bigger tournaments. I can't even make it to Bazaar of Moxen this year :/

Define "bigger". I remember the Legacy side-event on sunday in Utrecht was more than 100 players. So I'd advise you to go to GP Antwerp and hope you've been to GP Prague.

But if you mean money-wise, yeah, I know what you mean.

[Lemnear]

4th Cradle is a matter of redundancy. It's not that the deck really needs to chain Cradles with Crop Rotations. Turn 1 Fetch, Turn 2 Cradle is awesome

The Devotion-land is plain aweful and it's totally off to suggest worse Elves to turn on the crappy Cradle-replacement

[PendelSteven]

To not reply and start a sub-topic:

Anyone worried about Blood Moon?

I see so many Elves-list with 9 fetches and 1 forest. Seeing that Blood Moon is red, if we keep on doing this, adding Stone Rain to those lists or something can destroy your only basicland...

Luckily we can usuaslly win on turn three, heck, in goldfishing today I turntwoed two games in a row. I always find turn 2 goldfishing awesome, since on play your opponent hasn't that much chance of disprupting you - and if they do, it's a turn three. Oh well.

So I reckon' we're to fast for Blood Moon disruption, but still. A small warning is in place, and I even recommend running at least 2 Forests, since Nic Fit / Explorer Pod. The latter is sort of on the rise as well. That's two reasons to increase your basics. I don't think you'll lose a big advantage and for that you get small advantages vs Blood Moon and Nic / Fit Explorer pod. Just do it: two Forest.

[PendelSteven]

Turn 1 Fetch, Turn 2 Cradle is awesome

Turn 1 Fetch --> Forest
Turn 2 Fetch --> Forest --> Crop Rotation --> Cradle

is in my opinion even more awesome, since it feeds your DRS and does thin out your deck two cards.

Oh and card-disadvantage? Honestly, in this deck that's not a problem at all!

[PendelSteven]

Lastly, thinking about what I have seen happen on SCG of late. Mostly the decks that are pushing cantrips to abuse Young Pyromancer. I am giving some serious thought to putting a Hoof side and Thar main.



May I suggest Glissa and Ratchet Bomb? Boom! Return Bomb... She can also bring back things like Tormod's Crypt by the way.

[Lemnear]

First, there is imo no need double and triple post.

Card-disadvantage is an issue in EVERY deck. You can't seriously ignore the fact that Cradle is uncounterable as a turn 2 play.

[PendelSteven]

First, there is imo no need double and triple post.

Card-disadvantage is an issue in EVERY deck. You can't seriously ignore the fact that Cradle is uncounterable as a turn 2 play.

Actually. I've played and seen many tourneys in which several of my/their opponents simply didn't have counterspells. I don't know if you noticed, but Legacy actually has a lot of decks that don't play blue, especially with Death & Texas on the rise. Oh, and hey. We dont'play blue. Goblins doesn't. Junk. Jund. (Maverick). Belcher. The list goes on...

And even then... If you had one counter would't you rather counter a CR, or the Glimpse, Natural Order, Wirewood Symbiote, Heritage Druid or Green Sun's Zenith? The way I see it: we have enough must-counters in our deck before an opponent will fear CR.


I'll actually will count the number of counterspells in the top 8 of SCG Legacy Open yesterday...

4 Daze
7 Force Of Will
3 Flusterstorm
(4 Red Elemental Blast Under Painter's Servant)
(4 Pyroblast Under Painter's Servant)
(3 Mindbreak Trap, in the Elvesdeck...)

And that's it. With that you ought to wonder: will they side in Flusterstorms vs Elves? Many Daze-casters actually say it doesn't help a thing vs Elves. Given example: first CR your forest, then if they daze, you can simply tap your other forest, so your CR isn't countered. Not a great use of Daze.

It gets even better if you look at 8-16:
MUD
Reanimator
4C Loam
Belcher
Sharldless BUG - adding several Forces and Flusterstorms
Sneak And Show - for another few Forces and maybe Pacts
Elves




So.



What counterspell exactly?

[Lemnear]

Depending on the boardstate I can't think of a better Spell Pierce/Daze target than Crop Rotation. 2-for-1 yourself with Crop Rotation is a backbreaker because you loose a land in addition.

[PendelSteven]

Depending on the boardstate I can't think of a better Spell Pierce/Daze target than Crop Rotation. 2-for-1 yourself with Crop Rotation is a backbreaker because you loose a land in addition.

3 Dazes, 0 Spell Pierce in the top 16. Just saying. I know you don't wanna take risks, but the chances are not that huge. And playing around Daze is a breeze anyway.

[Lemnear]

3 Dazes, 0 Spell Pierce in the top 16. Just saying. I know you don't wanna take risks, but the chances are not that huge.

What are you talking about Top 16? Who cares about a single T16 without making remarks about date/number of players/meta/etc?

[PendelSteven]

What are you talking about Top 16? Who cares about a single T16 without making remarks about date/number of players/meta/etc?

date: yesterday
players: 250+
meta: today's American meta. But hey, if you're paying $ 40 to play, you don't bring a deck you don't want to win with. Well, most of them don't.

[chinEsE girl]

Dude, PendelSteven, you really need to pay attention to what evidence you're using to support your claims. You said there were only 3 copies of daze and 0 spell pierce in the top 16 of the SCG open in Cincinnati yesterday, that number is closer to 8 and 3 (I'm counting the decks from 1st to 16th btw). Those were from 3 out of the total of 5 blue decks in the top 16 all together. Shardless BUG only plays force main, but can still side into flusterstorm if it wants to (dunno if that's something they would do against elves tbh). The other blue decks were either playing a full set of dazes (with more counter magic in the board) or playing some spell pierces (again with more countermagic in the board). What I'm trying to say is that if you ended up getting paired against one of the decks with cheap countermagic, crop rotation is a pretty big liability. It opens you up to getting blown out when you need the mana most if you play against a lot of blue decks. If the meta is similar to what Cinci was, where there is a ton of fair decks that can't favorably deny your rotations, then sure it's a pretty good plan. You can do a ton of powerful things with rotation in the deck. However, when I play the deck, there is usually a good portion of opponents who have cheap countermagic against me, so in my meta I want 4 cradles straight up. Just my 2 cents about that.

Also my opinion on the new devotion land: Lemnear said it best. It's a worse cradle that needs you to run worse elves just to make it close to cradles power level. Trying to make cards like that work is not smart. If you want to make the deck as powerful as possible, play the most powerful cards. Cradle power level is several orders of magnitude higher than the new land, plus you don't have to make your deck worse just to have it function.

In fact, that statement pretty much applies to a lot of the cards people like to suggest here. My philosophy with this deck is that its a lean, mean, green mana producing, hoof smashing machine, and playing "cute" cards just makes the deck worse. Unless you have serious budgetary concerns, just run the most powerful cards or sideboard options that work well in a variety of situations. So that's means main you keep the core intact, with maybe a few adjustments to suite your play style/game plan (number of Llanowars and birchlores, exact number of lands, how many cradles and rotations, how many NO targets main) and play strong interactive sideboard cards. There's a reason why all of the well performing lists have very similar sideboards, with maybe a few alterations between them. We've reached a point where we've established something incredibly powerful, so there's no reason to start making it weaker by running a bunch of cute, single matchup application types of cards.

[Dice_Box]

Big impossible to cut on a mobile Post. I would like to state that I was suggesting the land only for a very small group of the thread that play with a limited number of Cradles due to cost issues. Once Crop rotation was pointed out to me (I forgot about it) the topic is dead. This new land is not better that cradle or in any way it's equal. I apologise for bringing it up at all. Also our eyes are open, this land, while useful, would only be placed in a deck due to budget issues.

Will admit, I kind of want to test elves in Modern now though.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Zombie]

I wouldn't even play it in a budget list. Basic Forests and Pendelhaven are about a million times better.

[trevaftw]

Did a whole bunch of testing against ANT tonight pre and post board. If they don't win turn 1 I feel super confidant in my ability to win the game. (It might've helped that I've learned on how to read my opponent on what to name with Cabal Therapy because of our discussions about how elves boards and thinks).

Board strategy:
-4 Wirewood
-4 Visionary
-1 Archdruid

+1 Teeg
+1 Dryad Militant
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Mindbreak Trap
+4 Cabal Therapy

And I have Ruric Thar and 4 NO main.

[Koby]

If they don't win turn 1....

+2 Mindbreak Trap


Something doesn't add up with what you just said.

[trevaftw]

Something doesn't add up with what you just said.

I don't always mull until I see a MBT. If I have hate and can play it (or have a way to fetch some hate) I keep the hand.

[Lemnear]

Pal, just don't run MBT ... Please take this sincere advice from a TES player. Focus on Therapy, Thalia and Thorn (Thalia>Thorn cuz it pressures in that matchup) ... Cut Bog and Militant ... run 2 Oozes instead in that spots

[Zombie]

Trap is horrible, horrible, horrible. Especially against a deck like ANT that's totally comfortable going for the long game, has tons of information from all the discard+Probe so they can just shred your hand and wait and then get rid of the Trap when they want to go off. Thalia/Thorn is so much better it's not funny because it slows down their setup AND hinders comboing out more than "has to cast Duress". Hell, it hinders the opponent from finding an answer to itself.

If you have this in vs. Storm postboard you'll be fine:
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Teeg
1 Thar

I've typically cut 3 Visionary, 1 Symbiote, 1 Heritage, 1 Viridian Shaman to make room for the Therapies and Thorns. If you have Ooze/2nd Hoof main, obv. change those into Teeg/Thar. The only Storm-style deck you should consistently lose to is a Doomsday player going for Emrakul or the like, I think. And those aren't exactly common. TES is ok but unfavourable due to the sheer speed and the fact you don't usually keep hands that are good at grinding EtW's down vs. Storm. Like, it's a thing you can do and it's not that difficult, but if TES Probes you and sees that he just waits a turn or two and Tendrils's or worse, Grapeshots your ass as punishment for stupidity.

EDIT: Teeg main is godlike vs. ANT, btw. the LDV build is the only one with any outs to Teeg maindeck. Add to that NO=>Thar and just killing him (you're about as fast as he is) and you're in a good place I think.

[Lemnear]

... but if TES Probes you and sees that he just waits a turn or two and Tendrils's or worse, Grapeshots your ass as punishment for stupidity.

Now I feel dirty ... thx pal ;(

[trevaftw]

Pal, just don't run MBT ... Please take this sincere advice from a TES player. Focus on Therapy, Thalia and Thorn (Thalia>Thorn cuz it pressures in that matchup) ... Cut Bog and Militant ... run 2 Oozes instead in that spots

I see the value gained from Ooze, but I don't think it's a necessary card. People talk about bringing it in against RUG and tbqh if you're losing that match up you're not playing it right. I've never had trouble with it. With respect to Ooze and dredge it is too slow against the deck and being able to crop rotate into bojuka bog or having the ability to play dryad militant against it has been super beneficial for me. Also add in that dryad militant is great against High Tide because it makes their time spirals significantly worse because all of their spells they played before it don't get recycled. MBT also is useful here since they have easy access to bounce via cunning wish. Also, I do know that thalia/thorn aginst high tide is fairly meh since they can go off through it easily where as making them force a MBT AND pitch another card gain be a pretty big setback.

I will try testing thalia's this week against my ANT player this week, though.

[Lemnear]

Ooze is a far less narrow card in several matchups. You can't advocate for D.Militant if the only matchups it has any application is against ANT and Snapcaster.dec while each other combo deck, including, TES laughs about it.

I found RUG Delver with Forked Bolt insanly hard to beat without going nuts turn 2 or 3 (on the play), tbh.

Having your initial High Tides potentially taxed sets the deck back for turns.

[trevaftw]

Ooze is a far less narrow card in several matchups. You can't advocate for D.Militant if the only matchups it has any application is against ANT and Snapcaster.dec while each other combo deck, including, TES laughs about it.

I guess I prefer more narrow dedicated stuff than more generic less specific hate.


I found RUG Delver with Forked Bolt insanly hard to beat without going nuts turn 2 or 3 (on the play), tbh.

We have more creatures than they have burn. We have more Glimpse/NO/GSZ than they do counter. It takes time, I'll admit, but the matchup has gotten significantly easier for me to play over time.


Having your initial High Tides potentially taxed sets the deck back for turns.

High tide is a combo deck that doesn't go off early but rather wait for the late game. Having to wait is irrelevant to them.

[Absolutflipz]

I see the value gained from Ooze, but I don't think it's a necessary card. People talk about bringing it in against RUG and tbqh if you're losing that match up you're not playing it right. I've never had trouble with it. With respect to Ooze and dredge it is too slow against the deck and being able to crop rotate into bojuka bog or having the ability to play dryad militant against it has been super beneficial for me. Also add in that dryad militant is great against High Tide because it makes their time spirals significantly worse because all of their spells they played before it don't get recycled. MBT also is useful here since they have easy access to bounce via cunning wish. Also, I do know that thalia/thorn aginst high tide is fairly meh since they can go off through it easily where as making them force a MBT AND pitch another card gain be a pretty big setback.

I will try testing thalia's this week against my ANT player this week, though.

Kinda blown away here.

Ooze is an absolute all-star in several matchups, and I have no idea why you don't need him against RUG in particular. And Ooze/Deathrite are both definitely not too slow against Dredge by any means. Of course there will be games where you get T2'ed, but he's plenty relevant in any game where they dont just go off on t2 and much better to have in the deck than many other cards that have literally no impact.

Very confused here, too.

Dryad Militant...? Now, that's narrow...and not powerful
Relying on a 1-of Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog? see above

Thalia/Thorn, in addition to being much better against Storm, also helps in many other matchups.

You should look for high-impact sideboard cards that have multiple applications...especially in Legacy.

[Koby]

I guess I prefer more narrow dedicated stuff than more generic less specific hate.



We have more creatures than they have burn. We have more Glimpse/NO/GSZ than they do counter. It takes time, I'll admit, but the matchup has gotten significantly easier for me to play over time.



High tide is a combo deck that doesn't go off early but rather wait for the late game. Having to wait is irrelevant to them.

I wish I had your luck with the deck. I'd be so much richer from winning all the time.

[trevaftw]

Ooze is an absolute all-star in several matchups, and I have no idea why you don't need him against RUG in particular.

Wirewood Symbiote is a card you know. Oh you have a 4/5 goyf? Block and bounce. Oh you killed the symbiote instead of an elf? NBD, means I can combo off next turn because you didn't kill heritage druid.


And Ooze/Deathrite are both definitely not too slow against Dredge by any means. Of course there will be games where you get T2'ed, but he's plenty relevant in any game where they dont just go off on t2 and much better to have in the deck than many other cards that have literally no impact.

I never said DRS was too slow.
Dredge wins game one. Game 2 you start and you get Ooza out turn two and have maybe one or two mana open to eat something of his. you get a turn 3 and possibly go off or not play anything to keep a fair amount of mana open to eat stuff while he still has potential to just overrun it. Game 3 you still get Ooze turn 2 but he gets turn 3 first and wins. I'd rather only need to keep one mana open (ala crop rotation) or play a creature turn one (dryad militant/DRS) and not worry about anything and just go for the win.



Dryad Militant...? Now, that's narrow...and not powerful
Relying on a 1-of Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog? see above

They're narrow but powerful. I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

[Absolutflipz]

Wirewood Symbiote is a card you know. Oh you have a 4/5 goyf? Block and bounce. Oh you killed the symbiote instead of an elf? NBD, means I can combo off next turn because you didn't kill heritage druid.



I never said DRS was too slow.
Dredge wins game one. Game 2 you start and you get Ooza out turn two and have maybe one or two mana open to eat something of his. you get a turn 3 and possibly go off or not play anything to keep a fair amount of mana open to eat stuff while he still has potential to just overrun it. Game 3 you still get Ooze turn 2 but he gets turn 3 first and wins. I'd rather only need to keep one mana open (ala crop rotation) or play a creature turn one (dryad militant/DRS) and not worry about anything and just go for the win.




They're narrow but powerful. I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

I give up

[nudon]

I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

[trevaftw]

I give up

Look man, I get that you're trying to say why you think I'm wrong, but you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up. I'm giving reasons and support examples and you're just saying I'm flustered that you think this and then don't do say anything to say why you're point of view is better.

[Koby]

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

Here's what I did at the Deals event vs Joseph:

+2 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Thalia
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Craterhoof?
-1 Quirion Ranger? (don't have as much time to durdle, need to go off ASAP)

Heritage Druid is hyper important in this matchup. Perhaps -1 Elvish Visionary instead of Quirion.

[Koby]

Look man, I get that you're trying to say why you think I'm wrong, but you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up. I'm giving reasons and support examples and you're just saying I'm flustered that you think this and then don't do say anything to say why you're point of view is better.

There are certainly games when RUG has a weak draw, or all creatures and can't interact with Elves as much. I enjoy those games just as much as anyone in this thread does. Then, there are games that go like this:

T1: Delver, Daze your elf.
T2: Flip Delver, Volc -> Bolt you guy. EOT, Submerge your other guy in response to fetchland.
T3: Goyf.
T4: Rough. Game.

[igri_is_a_bk]

That's pretty much what I do.
-1 Hoof, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Visionary, -1 Arbor
+2 Ooze, +1 Thalia, +1 Thorn

Honestly when I played Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog, I was really impressed with it against Dredge. One MU wasn't enough to keep it around though.

[danyul]

LOL I actually lose to RUG more often than I lose to Miracles.

I beat Miracles somewhat often simply because they have to dig for answers. RUG is just all answers. The matchup is not fun. They also have Rough/Tumble postboard. PLZ tell me your secrets.

[Absolutflipz]

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

I've been conflicted here before and I'm not sure I have it all the way correct.

My maindeck has 1 Scavenging Ooze.

Side is:
4x Therapy
2x Thorn
1x Thalia
1x Ooze
2x Choke
1x Progenitus
2x Decay
1x Teeg
1x Viridian Shaman

I've boarded various ways in the past, and I think I would go with something like:

-1 Craterhoof (assuming 2 main), -1 Visionary, -1 Symbiote, -1 Quirion, -1 Birchlore

+1 Ooze, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Thalia/Thorns is quite the hoser against them given many times a Dredge opponent will be on 1 mana or a diminishing gemstone mine and a Cephalid Col. The additional 1 really prevents/slows down flashing back of stuff like Therapy, Looting, Dread Return, and sideboard cards like Firestorm.

There is obviously tension here as it can slow down your combo plan, but I've found the disruption buys you plenty of time and this is also a matchup where your Cradles are always going to be safe (and to a lesser, but still large extent, your mana guys) and you will be able to produce mana over top of the Thorn.

The main talking point to me is the Teeg. Is Teeg worth it to shut off mainly Dread Return and to a much lesser extent Breakthrough...while possibly hosing your own GSZ and NO? If not, probably keep in the 1 Birchlore.

[Lemnear]

I have no fucking clue how you beat Lightning Bolt/Forked Bolt/Rough while your NO is kept in check with FoW/Pierce

[Koby]

I do'nt think Teeg is worth boarding in. It only shuts down Dread Return, which if it's occurring a lot of things had to go wrong including a really fast start. The best goal is to get Scavenging Ooze online ASAP and hopefully with some mana to start eating the graveyard right away. I think in this respect, you want Birchlore Rangers in as well to help pump out as much mana as possible.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The main talking point to me is the Teeg. Is Teeg worth it to shut off mainly Dread Return and to a much lesser extent Breakthrough...while possibly hosing your own GSZ and NO? If not, probably keep in 1 Birchlore.

That's completely dependent on their dredge build. If they're on quadlazer without DR, then no Teeg is necessary. I don't think hating on Breakthrough is worth shutting off your best way to win. They still have Study, Looting and Coliseum to sidestep Teeg.

[trevaftw]

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...
I take them out.


Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?


+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Dryad Militant
+1 Bojuka Bog

-1 Wirewod
-1 Visionary
-1 Archdruid



There are certainly games when RUG has a weak draw, or all creatures and can't interact with Elves as much. I enjoy those games just as much as anyone in this thread does. Then, there are games that go like this:

T1: Delver, Daze your elf.
T2: Flip Delver, Volc -> Bolt you guy. EOT, Submerge your other guy in response to fetchland.
T3: Goyf.
T4: Rough. Game.

And that's variance. I've had that happen to me, and I've played games where they had no daze/stifle or couldn't find a threat. They get the nut, we get the nut.



Honestly when I played Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog, I was really impressed with it against Dredge. One MU wasn't enough to keep it around though.

When I get two more cradle they're replacing the crop rotations.

[Dice_Box]

Reread everything twice and I am still lost about what is going on here. Are we really hearing that not bringing in Ooze against the deck that mains Burn and Goyf is a plan or am I just confused? This is not sarcasm. I am really really lost right now.

[Absolutflipz]

Look man, I get that you're trying to say why you think I'm wrong, but you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up. I'm giving reasons and support examples and you're just saying I'm flustered that you think this and then don't do say anything to say why you're point of view is better.

It's mainly because we are so far off and I feel most of this stuff is very easily understood if you've been playing/having an understanding of the deck and its match-ups.

But, here are more specific reasons.


Scavenging Ooze vs RUG -- this matchup is very attrition based and quite the race. Also, Rough/Tumble is a huge card. They play lots of burn and removal.

Ooze does -- grows out of range of Bolt/all of their removal, gains life to win said race, lives through a Rough/Tumble with a single activation, gives you a huge threat on offense and defense (untap with ranger/symbiote) that they lose to unless they hit a temporary answer in Submerge, eats their GY to keep Mongoose off threshold, Goyf smaller. I didn't go into such specifics as if you had ever actually played this match with some number of Scavenging Oozes you would have abundantly realized how important and amazing he is against RUG.

Against other deck: Jund Punishing fire -- eats Punishing Fire in the yard while providing a threat that doesnt die to it, Goyf gy applications, etc..

Dredge/Reanimator - GY removal

Dodges Engineered Plauge

Provides a big threat after a board wipe (one of our weaknesses)

I'm sure I'm missing points, but you get the idea.

Dryad Militant is NOT powerful as you say it is. It's a 1 mana 2/1 that has very narrow applications. Narrow does not equal powerful here, either. The card is extremely underwhelming.

Relying on a 2-of crop rotation into a Bojuka Bog doesnt give you much consistency vs having a 6-8-of (ie 4 deathrite + 4 GSZ or 2 Ooze + 4 GSZ). Further, Crop Rotation is horrible against Daze/Spell Pierce decks.

Thalia/Thorns are incredibly effective against many decks and are high impact cards that belong in the sideboard. You only get 15 slots, make them count and have cross-applicability.

[Absolutflipz]

I do'nt think Teeg is worth boarding in. It only shuts down Dread Return, which if it's occurring a lot of things had to go wrong including a really fast start. The best goal is to get Scavenging Ooze online ASAP and hopefully with some mana to start eating the graveyard right away. I think in this respect, you want Birchlore Rangers in as well to help pump out as much mana as possible.

Yeah, that's my inclination, too. Just good to hear it from another person and confirmed that I would put the Birchlore back in for the same reason, ie to be faster.

[Dice_Box]

The issue with the Bog/Rotation plan is the moment you draw Bog you have lost your answer. You go from a "Virtual" 3 answers to a Literal none. You lose all ability to interact outside of Sorcery speed. To me this is just too much of a liability and I long ago cut the card.

[Koby]

And that's variance. I've had that happen to me, and I've played games where they had no daze/stifle or couldn't find a threat. They get the nut, we get the nut.


You've successfully confused me now. You're now saying that we have an even (win some, lose some, mostly to equal variance from both decks) matchup against RUG; where before you were saying we don't need Scavenging Ooze because:


if you're losing that match up you're not playing it right. I've never had trouble with it.

I think you should take your own advice and:


you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up.

[trevaftw]

You've successfully confused me now. You're now saying that we have an even (win some, lose some, mostly to equal variance from both decks) matchup against RUG; where before you were saying we don't need Scavenging Ooze because:



I think you should take your own advice and:

I never said we had an even matchup. Variance =/= 50-50 matchup. I was pointing out that you gave an example of a nut draw (an outlier) which we also can have. My original point still stands.

[Absolutflipz]

How about boarding the Miracles matchup. I think it's quite tricky, and obviously the matchup blows.

Let's assume my board for sake of clarity:

4 Therapy
2 Decay
1 Ooze
1 Progenitus
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Choke
2 Thorns
1 Thalia
1 Teeg

My initial thoughts are:
-1 Quirion, -1 Ooze, -1 Heritage, -1 Nettle, -1 Craterhoof

+2 Choke, +2 Decay, +1 Progenitus

What about Teeg? Does it do enough....especially since they always seem to answer it with StP and we're also fighting CB by wanting to play our own Natural Orders.

Thorns/Thalia? If so, what else to cut?

Is Progenitus actually an upgrade to the 2nd Hoof? It dodges StP, but doesnt have haste, while they still have Terminus/Verdict.

[Koby]

I never said we had an even matchup. Variance =/= 50-50 matchup. I was pointing out that you gave an example of a nut draw (an outlier) which we also can have. My original point still stands.

After board, RUG has the following potential answers:
4 Bolt
2 "spot removal" = Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, Fire/Ice, Dismember
3-4 Submerge
1-2 Rough/Tumble

Between 10-12 pieces of removal. Plus 8-11 cantrips. Odds of them getting 2 pieces of removal is very high. An opening with Delver happens about 40% of the time. How is this an outlier?

[nudon]

Here's what I did at the Deals event vs Joseph:

+2 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Thalia
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Craterhoof?
-1 Quirion Ranger? (don't have as much time to durdle, need to go off ASAP)

Heritage Druid is hyper important in this matchup. Perhaps -1 Elvish Visionary instead of Quirion.


That's pretty much what I do.
-1 Hoof, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Visionary, -1 Arbor
+2 Ooze, +1 Thalia, +1 Thorn

Honestly when I played Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog, I was really impressed with it against Dredge. One MU wasn't enough to keep it around though.

Thanks for the replies. Koby, is there a reason why you don't board in thorns? Also with your suggestion, I posted my list and my tourney report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26646-3rd-Time-s-the-Charm-Top-4-at-MTGDeals-Monthly-Legacy-8-31-2013) from Saturday btw. Igri, do you have a second thorn you're not bringing in? Because I'm running the no-utility birchlore build (4 birchlore, 4 NO), I was actually thinking about boarding this way: -2 visionary, -1 hoof, +2 thorn, +1 ooze. The logic is I still have maximum explosiveness with additional hate.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Thanks for the replies. Koby, is there a reason why you don't board in thorns? Also with your suggestion, I posted my list and my tourney report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26646-3rd-Time-s-the-Charm-Top-4-at-MTGDeals-Monthly-Legacy-8-31-2013) from Saturday btw. Igri, do you have a second thorn you're not bringing in? Because I'm running the no-utility birchlore build (4 birchlore, 4 NO), I was actually thinking about boarding this way: -2 visionary, -1 hoof, +2 thorn, +1 ooze. The logic is I still have maximum explosiveness with additional hate.

Exactly. Against dredge, TES, ANT, or whatever other broken deck you play, you don't want to side out any of your 1-drop elves. I don't cut Symbiote either for the best possible Glimpse chains as early as possible. And yes, I only bring in one Thorn because that's all I have in my sb atm. I'd bring in two if I had them. I only side out an Arbor because I play two mb for clarity.

Edit: I am switching back to two Thorns most likely. I was testing a Choke in one of those slots for Miracles, but combo is more prevalent.

[Lemnear]

Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 - Hero's Come Back! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26658-Heart-of-the-Storm-5-Hero-s-Come-Back!) is finally online on MTG TheSource! Check it out!

[Dice_Box]

You won? Nice. Oh and you can keep your Jace's, I want those Diamonds.

[Lemnear]

You won? Nice. Oh and you can keep your Jace's, I want those Diamonds.

I fear you have to draw a number xP

Have a nixe week, pal

[Zombie]

Cradlewalker. Makes things to hit Miracles with. Is red, sadly.

[Dice_Box]

Cradlewalker.What is Cradlewalker?

[HammafistRoob]

How about boarding the Miracles matchup. I think it's quite tricky, and obviously the matchup blows.

Let's assume my board for sake of clarity:

4 Therapy
2 Decay
1 Ooze
1 Progenitus
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Choke
2 Thorns
1 Thalia
1 Teeg

My initial thoughts are:
-1 Quirion, -1 Ooze, -1 Heritage, -1 Nettle, -1 Craterhoof

+2 Choke, +2 Decay, +1 Progenitus

What about Teeg? Does it do enough....especially since they always seem to answer it with StP and we're also fighting CB by wanting to play our own Natural Orders.

Thorns/Thalia? If so, what else to cut?

Is Progenitus actually an upgrade to the 2nd Hoof? It dodges StP, but doesnt have haste, while they still have Terminus/Verdict.

I'm not positive about the entire boarding plan but I would keep Progenitus in the side. Also Teeg shuts down Jace, Force, TERMINUS, and Entreat. He should always come in here, and I'm pretty sure you want Thalia too. Maybe bring her over Decay if you're on the play? Or if you know they're not running CB? I think CB is only scary if they can land it on turn 2, and if they do, we still have NO/GSZ/Pridemage as potential outs.

[Zombie]

If you have spare slots for Pithing Needles, Needle on Top is freaking nasty for Miracles. The deck has a tendency to shit on itself without an active Top.

Cradlewalker:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145298&d=1378267497

[Dice_Box]

Cradlewalker:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145298&d=1378267497WOW. Thats fucking nuts. Pity the other two abilities are not that helpful for us.

[Kayradis]

Alright.
This weekend is probably my last "big" event in preparation for GP Washington. Expecting between 50-70 people.
My main concern is to build an overall SB plan against most of the match ups I might encounter.

Known decks in the meta:

Punishing Jund
RUG Delver
UWR Delver
OmniTell/Dream Halls
Merfolks
ANT

I'm open to ideas and suggestions.
What would be YOUR sideboard composition and plan in regards to those matchups?
I'm looking for explanations on your choices.

Also. Received my Source playmat last night.
Gotta show your support.

[Dice_Box]

Going to seprate each match and have a look at it.

Punishing Jund
Ooze, Jitte and Progen. I find Jitte helps, because even with Burn and the constant attempt at clearing your field, once you have counters on it all you need to do is draw cheap Critters and your gold.


RUG Delver
Thar and Ooze. I like using Ooze to cut off Snapcaster targets and Thar can block and limits spell options for them.


UWR Delver
I have very little experience against this deck sorry. I do not feel I can be of help here.


OmniTell/Dream Halls
Thorn, Teeg and Thar all pull weight here. I personally would bring in every Tax effect you have and go for broke.


Merfolks
Jitte, Viridian Shaman and Harmonic. Jitte hurts them since it gives you directed targeting of their Lords. Mostly though I gun for Vial. An open Vial is more dangerous than you would normally think and killing Vial limits the crap that can be pulled with Standstill. In any deck that plays with Vial I try and kill it. The instant speed drops of powerful Lords or control creatures make this one of the most effective Artifacts in Legacy.


ANT
Ooze (If they have Past in Flames), Thorn, Thar and Teeg. Normal rules apply. Try not to lose and lock them before they kill you. Personally I find Ooze to be more useful than you would think right away. One life gained increases the amount of storm they need. Also killing Dark Ritual can hamper Past's versatility.

[Kayradis]

Thanks for the input! At this point here's the config of the SB

4 x Cabal Therapy
2 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Ruric Thar
1 x Jitte (debatable)
7 x Free Slots

[Dice_Box]

I would add:
Locks: Thorn and Teeg
Art and Enhant Hate: Viridian and Harmonic
Grave Hate: Ooze
Jitte is a personal touch of mine, if you do not feel like its would be that useful you need not run it.

As I look over this I am thinking:
3/4 Thorn
1 Teeg
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ruric Thar
1 Jitte
1/2 Ooze
1 Viridian/Harmonic

[Kayradis]

I really love thorn.
How's thalia for you?

2 x Thorn
2 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Cabal Therapy
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Ruric Thar
1 x Gaddock Teeg
2 x Thalia (?)
1 x Sylvan Safekeeper
1 x Flex Slot

[Dice_Box]

I do not touch Thalia in this deck. I do not always have the white needed to cast, I am never short on bodies anyway and Thalia is far simpler to remove than Thorn is since any burn spell does the deed. Also Thalia can not be played in multiples if you have them to stack the effect. I love her in Goblins, never thought about putting her in here.

[Kayradis]

Bumping to 3 x Thorn, 1 x Thalia.

I'll give her a try Tomorrow at our weekly legacy.

[Lemnear]

I still would not underestimate Thalia being a beater against certain decks like storm. With 4 Birchlores, 4 DRS and 10 Fetches plus a Savannah getting white mana is possible

[igri_is_a_bk]

Dammit, I had an entire sb strategy typed out until Chrome decided to reset itself. WTF?! Basically, I'd take this sb:

4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Sliver
1 Progenitus

With this plan, assuming nothing extraordinary out of your opponent:

Jund: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
RUG: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
UWR: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
OmniTell -4 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg, +1 Sliver
Merfolk: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Progenitus
ANT: -3 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Obviously, if you don't have two Arbors in your mb, you'll have to replace those Arbors for something else. You can't go down to zero.

[Zombie]

Pretty sure cutting down on NO vs. Storm is wrong. The whole point is to have about ten million "I Win" cards and drown them/land one early.

[Lemnear]

Pretty sure cutting down on NO vs. Storm is wrong. The whole point is to have about ten million "I Win" cards and drown them/land one early.

If you don't opt for Ruric, cutting NO's and Hoofs isn't unreasonable. Overloading with Teeg, Thorn, Thalia and Therapies (the 4T's) while beating with 1/1's is imo a valid option

[Zombie]

Yeah but IIRC igri runs the three-fatty maindeck setup. Which means you have Ruric, in which case cutting NO is insane. If you don't have Ruric, then I agree cutting down on NO is reasonable.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I play two Hoofs in the mb for fatties. Against combo, most of my wins come from anemic beatdown. Teeg is my top priority, and so NO takes a back seat. That's why I've never been keen on Ruric Thar.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Pretty sure cutting down on NO vs. Storm is wrong. The whole point is to have about ten million "I Win" cards and drown them/land one early.

No, it's not. That's the plan against blue decks with counterspells. Against other, faster combo the plan is to land some disruption because they should be faster than any of our "I win" cards.

[Lemnear]

My fellow friend piloting Elves against me also boarded out his 4 NO and both Hoofs to bring in the hate while beating with 1/1's ...


No, it's not. That's the plan against blue decks with counterspells. Against other, faster combo the plan is to land some disruption because they should be faster than any of our "I win" cards.

I agree with that

[Absolutflipz]

I'm not positive about the entire boarding plan but I would keep Progenitus in the side. Also Teeg shuts down Jace, Force, TERMINUS, and Entreat. He should always come in here, and I'm pretty sure you want Thalia too. Maybe bring her over Decay if you're on the play? Or if you know they're not running CB? I think CB is only scary if they can land it on turn 2, and if they do, we still have NO/GSZ/Pridemage as potential outs.

I've thought about Thalia/Thorns, but the game goes pretty long and Thalia/Thorns also slow down any chance you have of getting an early glimpse or NO off to steal a game.

I'm also torn on bringing in Teeg, as one of your best ways to win and get around CB is resolving a NO.

Also, if you're bringing in Thalia/Thorns and Teeg -- what else are you taking out from what I already had?

I also agree with taking out the NOs against Storm. Too slow and you're bringin in Thorns/Thalia. I leave in one Hoof cuz Cradle is safe in this matchup and it's not unreasonable to land a Hoof after some early disruption to close it out quickly.

[Absolutflipz]

I do not touch Thalia in this deck. I do not always have the white needed to cast, I am never short on bodies anyway and Thalia is far simpler to remove than Thorn is since any burn spell does the deed. Also Thalia can not be played in multiples if you have them to stack the effect. I love her in Goblins, never thought about putting her in here.

Re: Thalia --Why not? Surely, you're playing as many fetches here in Elves as in your Goblins list, if not more in Elves (should be 9 or 10, imo). Fetches being equivalent to white sources, here.

She's good in Elves for the same reason she's good in Goblins and the same reason Thorns of Amethyst is good.

It's a Thorn effect that's a beater. She's very good as the 3rd Thorn effect in the board after 2x Thorns because while Thalia may be "easier" to get rid of, decks she's really good against are mainly looking for cards like Chain of Vapor which answer Thalia and Thorns the same. There are other removal spells that can hit her, but not Thorns....but they're not that many (Firestorm from Dredge being the only one that comes to mind now) and Thalia does have a benefit to thorns....she gives you a clock while disrupting your opponent so they dont have more turns to get out of it.


Dammit, I had an entire sb strategy typed out until Chrome decided to reset itself. WTF?! Basically, I'd take this sb:

4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Sliver
1 Progenitus

With this plan, assuming nothing extraordinary out of your opponent:

Jund: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
RUG: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
UWR: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
OmniTell -4 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg, +1 Sliver
Merfolk: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Progenitus
ANT: -3 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Obviously, if you don't have two Arbors in your mb, you'll have to replace those Arbors for something else. You can't go down to zero.

How has your RUG plan that leaves in Natural Order against the Daze/Spell Pierce deck worked out? I could see leaving 1-2 since the games go long and you could probably resolve a mid-late game NO for Hoof/Progen, but I don't think I'd want the full 3-4 (whatever full amount your main has) after board against Daze/Pierce, Bolts and Rough/Tumble.

I have been trying Thorns/Thalia against RUG since they run off so few lands and the entire deck relies on noncreature spells. It sounds great, but I'm not positive it's correct after playing actual matches. Maybe Thorns, but no Thalia?

[Alexeezay]

@flipz: I think Thorns vs RUG are not a good idea, because the matchup is too fast for thorns, in my experience. By the time you played a Thalia/Thorn, They already got attackers(Delver/Goyf) or just counter(Daze) your Thorn effect.
Besides, playing a Thorn slows you down a Turn & makes NO,GSZ & Glimpse more expensive which is especially rough against RUG.

I agree that even post-board you need 1 Dryad Arbor. I could maybe see boarding Arbors out vs Aggro Loam, I've done that in the past. But it's probably wrong because of the NO Plan in that matchup (nowadays)

[igri_is_a_bk]

RUG is going to Daze or Spell Pierce the first thing you offer up. And it makes sense from their side to do so. So obviously you don't walk NO in to those spells if you haven't tested the waters first. Even GSZ with x=1 is really bad for them unless they already have Delver, so you should be able to resolve either Glimpse to pull too far ahead, NO to win, or GSZ for Symbiote tricks.

The only really scary hands out of RUG consist of two Delvers imo.

Edit: one more thing I thought to mention. During any game one against RUG, Goyf will never be bigger than a 4/5. Between both decks, only land, creature, instant, and sorcery type spells exist. So if you're ever figuring out the worst case scenario math, you can count on goyf never exceeding that p/t.

[Koby]

The whole idea between splitting Thalia/Thorns count is so that you can cast additional Thorn effects without being affected by the Thorn effect. Does that make sense?

If you're running 4 Thorns and have three in your hand; the first will cost :2:, the 2nd one will cost :3:, and the third will cost :4:.
If you're running Thorns and Thalia and have 2 Thorns + Thalia in hand, the first will cost :2:, the second will cost :3:, then Thalia will still cost :1::w: and resist spells by an additional :3:.

I grant you that it's playing for the long game, but it has occurred against decks not prepared to fight artifacts. That extra mana could be the difference between fighting a Jace coming down at 5 but not 6 mana.

[Absolutflipz]

The whole idea between splitting Thalia/Thorns count is so that you can cast additional Thorn effects without being affected by the Thorn effect. Does that make sense?

If you're running 4 Thorns and have three in your hand; the first will cost :2:, the 2nd one will cost :3:, and the third will cost :4:.
If you're running Thorns and Thalia and have 2 Thorns + Thalia in hand, the first will cost :2:, the second will cost :3:, then Thalia will still cost :1::w: and resist spells by an additional :3:.

I grant you that it's playing for the long game, but it has occurred against decks not prepared to fight artifacts. That extra mana could be the difference between fighting a Jace coming down at 5 but not 6 mana.

Thalia does "play well" with a Thorns, but this seems quite minor as compared to her being a 2-power beater.

Thorns/Thalia is a 3-of (most of the time) and you're not very likely to draw two of them in close succession, in which you draw the Thorns first so as to play the Thalia second for the same 2mana cost.

It is a nice interaction and further reason for the 2/1 split, tho.

[Koby]

Thalia does "play well" with a Thorns, but this seems quite minor as compared to her being a 2-power beater.

Thorns/Thalia is a 3-of (most of the time) and you're not very likely to draw two of them in close succession, in which you draw the Thorns first so as to play the Thalia second for the same 2mana cost.

It is a nice interaction and further reason for the 2/1 split, tho.

That was my original reasons for doing so actually. It came up in a game against BUG-Landstill, one in which I was being Wastelanded out of non-basics. That left me with about 3 Forests (eh.. it was a while ago before DRS) in play and not enough to cast the 3rd Thorns (and the game went very long). Anyways, I don't think we're short on creatures against the control matchups, where Thalia does become a liability (easier to remove). Again, a lot of things have changed (Abrupt Decay), so there's reason to re-evaluate Thalia/Thorns mix if needed.

The pros and cons of Thalia seem to balance out equally, so I don't think there's a need to eliminate her from the SB plan.

[nudon]

Dammit, I had an entire sb strategy typed out until Chrome decided to reset itself. WTF?! Basically, I'd take this sb:

4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Sliver
1 Progenitus

With this plan, assuming nothing extraordinary out of your opponent:

Jund: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
RUG: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +2 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
UWR: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Nettle, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Ooze, +1 Progenitus
OmniTell -4 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg, +1 Sliver
Merfolk: -2 Heritage, -1 Birchlore, -1 Hoof; +3 Decay, +1 Progenitus
ANT: -3 Visionary, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Arbor, -2 NO, -1 Hoof; +4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Obviously, if you don't have two Arbors in your mb, you'll have to replace those Arbors for something else. You can't go down to zero.

My sideboard is very similar with 2 small differences: -1 thalia, -1 ooze, +1 thorn, +1 viridian shaman (none in md). I tried Ruric Thar against TES in the recent Deals tourney and found him very underwhelming. He's only good for t2 NO on the play, which rarely happens when you're playing cabal therapy and thorns as well. Here's how I would board.

Jund: -2 heritage, -2 quirion, -1 hoof, +2 decay, +1 ooze, +1 shaman, +1 prog
RUG: -3 NO, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 ooze
UWR: -4 NO, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 shaman
OmniTell: -4 visionary, -1 hoof, +3 thorn, +1 teeg, +1 sliver
Merfolk: -2 heritage, -1 NO, +2 decay, +1 ooze
ANT: -4 NO, -3 visionary, -1 hoof, +4 therapy, +3 thorn, +1 teeg

The plan is similar with the biggest difference being that I take out NO against aggro-control blue decks.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The plan is similar with the biggest difference being that I take out NO against aggro-control blue decks.

Okay, but what's your rationale? Counterspells hit a lot harder when you have fewer threats in your deck.

[Lemnear]

Hmmm, I once added the 4th NO to overload on threats against counters ... it's strange that you now want to board it out against counters :/