[Primer] Elves!

[danyul]

They can just recast Emrakul after you bounce him. So they get an extra extra turn too. Not good. Also they have their entire deck in their hand. If they can't win after that then they should go back to Yugioh.

A better plan would be to discard/tax their hand before they get a chance to go buckwild like that.

[Kayradis]

Just dodge the match up.
I don't expect to see a lot of it in DC to be honest.

Anyway.
Probably gonna go to GP Paris.
Julian? Mind hanging out with other elves players? :D

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Probably gonna go to GP Paris.
Julian? Mind hanging out with other elves players? :D

Hoping something will rub off? ;) Good luck in Paris. Maybe we'll see and Elves! v. Elves! final match.

[Kayradis]

Let me crush DC first before saying that! :laugh:

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Let me crush DC first before saying that! :laugh:
I'm looking forward to that crushing report. Go get 'em.

[Kayradis]

Im testint a slightly different build than my standard one on MTGO at the moment.

Im not 100% convinced...yet

[r3dd09]

Congrats again, Julian. I was stoked with Koby keeping me up to date on how you were doing via Retweets. haha

May the Raging Quirion Ranger live on!

[Julian23]

Will be streaming the Legacy Daily Event on MODO in 8 minutes. Join us at http://www.twitch.tv/itsjulian!

I 3-1'ed the one yesterday, I believe....time to start losing again, hu? :wink: I will be going live right before the DE, so just F5 :-)

[blind]

Congrat' Julian ! Very nice Job !

I ended 15th for the Main Event Legacy BoM 8, with this Decklist :

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 3 Envelopp
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ruric Thar

Day 1 : 8-1

Vs Patriot win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs ElfBall win (2-1)
Vs Maverock win (2-1)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Pikula win (2-0)
Vs AnT win (2-0)
Vs Patriot win (2-1)

Day 2 : : 3-3

Vs AnT lose (1-2) top 8
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Rock Wish CotV win (2-1)
Vs AnT lose (1-2) Daragaz 10th
Vs OmniShow win (2-0)

[Benjammn]

Congrat' Julian ! Very nice Job !

I ended 15th for the Main Event Legacy BoM 8, with this Decklist :

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 3 Envelopp
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ruric Thar

Day 1 : 8-1

Vs Patriot win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs ElfBall win (2-1)
Vs Maverock win (2-1)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Pikula win (2-0)
Vs AnT win (2-0)
Vs Patriot win (2-1)

Day 2 : : 3-3

Vs AnT lose (1-2) top 8
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Rock Wish CotV win (2-1)
Vs AnT lose (1-2) Daragaz 10th
Vs OmniShow win (2-0)

So how do you feel about Envelop? Am I correct in thinking this is a combo hate card that is a little more flexible vs. decks with Show and Tell?

[trevaftw]

Went 4-0 again tonight at weekly legacy.

R1: 2-1 Death and Taxes
R2: 2-1 Counter-top
R3: 2-1 ANT
R4: 2-0 Esper Stoneblade

[trevaftw]

So how do you feel about Envelop? Am I correct in thinking this is a combo hate card that is a little more flexible vs. decks with Show and Tell?

If you want a counter versus SnT I'd say use swan song

[andrebonotto]

If you want a counter versus SnT I'd say use swan song


I know you proposed the use of Swan Song specifically against SnT, and not in any other MU, but nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to offer this thread a quick Copy+Paste from blind's report (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=4818&st=3345#entry198192) (and his subsequent reply (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=4818&st=3360#entry198285)) at the french forum, to add to our considerations about this card (http://magiccards.info/ths/en/65.html):

"(...) J'affronte Elves round 4, je perd la g1 et mull à 5 à la g2 dans 3 lands double Envelopp et je gagne cette game. (...)"


(TRANSLATING: "I played against Elves on Round 4, losing G1 and mulling to 5 on G2, where I kept a hand with 3 lands and 2x Envelop, which ended up winning me this game.")

and:

"(...) Ouais clairement j'aurais perdu si avait été swan. Le plan Aggro est loin d'être négligeable et malheureusement on joue des 1/1. Je garderais Envelopp."


(TRANSLATING:"(...) Yeah, of course I would have lost if I had Swan Song [in place of the Envelops]. The aggro plan is far from negligible and unfortunately we play 1/1's. I'll keep the Envelops")


Despite the difference in context, my purpose with this Copy+Paste was to call atention to the mentioned potential of the aggro plan on these sort of "Racing MUs" (I mean, after we have first delayed them, of course), a circunstance in which a free 2/2 blocker could buy our opponents just as much time as we take from them through disrupting their previous spell, since it blocks pretty much all of our non-Hoof/Ruric creatures, hence preventing us from making our clock press them.

Thoughts?


(P.S.: And by the way, blind, congrats for your 15th place at the BoM! :smile: )

[blind]

Thx andrebonotto :)

I stoped mtg for 2 years and I didn't test for this Event. I like U splash because Combo-Deck are bad Match-Ups.

Envelopp > Swang because you can win with 1/1 and your hate VS Combo Deck.

[Dice_Box]

I am not convinced that a Counter is any better for us than discard is and discard has far more reaching targets.

[blind]

Combo play Brainstorm. ;) Discard + Counter > Discard + Discard

[Dice_Box]

I have 7 discard spells I bring in, Brainstorm is always my first named target unless I have to hit something else right then and there. Also if I slow them down a turn than that is a turn that I gain to combo off myself.

[Havoc]

while it may be true that discard+counter is better i dont believe it to more effective than discard+discard in this case . if you happen to combo off and not have gone for the trop or blue source than its a dead draw. unless your playing something with lots of land destruction, your going to go for your bayou so you will have the black source. not that blue is bad and if you like it play what you like (i run a 2 mindbreak trap and 2 thorn in my sideboard just because i like it) but that flavor is not for everyone. most players like the GB splashing W or R. personally id never run U.

[Water_Wizard]

Congrat' Julian ! Very nice Job !

I ended 15th for the Main Event Legacy BoM 8, with this Decklist :

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 3 Envelopp
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ruric Thar

Day 1 : 8-1

Vs Patriot win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs ElfBall win (2-1)
Vs Maverock win (2-1)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Pikula win (2-0)
Vs AnT win (2-0)
Vs Patriot win (2-1)

Day 2 : : 3-3

Vs AnT lose (1-2) top 8
Vs BUG win (2-0)
Vs Esper lose (1-2)
Vs Rock Wish CotV win (2-1)
Vs AnT lose (1-2) Daragaz 10th
Vs OmniShow win (2-0)

What's your 60th card?

[blind]

1 Scavenging Ooze sorry. ;)

[Kayradis]

Alright. 3 days until I depart for DC.
Im reviewing tons of gameplay and vids.

Expect me to call an audible 3 hours before round 2 ;)

[andrebonotto]

while it may be true that discard+counter is better i dont believe it to more effective than discard+discard in this case . if you happen to combo off and not have gone for the trop or blue source than its a dead draw. (...).

I agree that there are many situations in which 'Discard + Counterspell' = 'Discard + Discard' (I mean, they have the same effect and effectiveness) .

But there are also those (marginal?) situations in which they don't equal.

In my case , for example, I'm interested on the first option for I'm a little worried about the Show and Tell MU. It sees a lot of play around here, and the players have adopted Leyline of Sanctity as a standard SB protection, bringing it in against Elves too.
Because of this, for many times my discards sat useless on my hands. The split with the counterspell seems superior in this case.
Hence, if I get the chance, I think I'll try the split between Discard + Counterspell, in order to try to gain an edge on this specific MU.

Now, I wonder about which counterspell to try. Would Spell Pierce be better than Envelop?
In theory, the first can disrupt more targets than the latter (e.g.: Spell Pierce also hits artifact mana sources from Storm Combo) ...

[Dice_Box]

If I was to run a counter, Spell Pierce would get the nod. It's the second most effective One drop counter behind Flusterstorm and when you need to hit a wide range of targets, it can be better.

I say this while also saying, this is not a play I would make.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Benjammn]

I get the sentiment that Envelop is trying to convey, but are there other cards that hurt Sneak n' Show better? Preferably something that doesn't involve a different splash? I'm inclined to think Thorn/Thalia might do well, but they don't gel well with discard.

While I haven't played against Sneak and Show in a while, it seems like a perennial favorite for those wanting to play in the GP without much experience. I fully expect to see it at the GP and I don't like the matchup currently...

[Havoc]

I agree that there are many situations in which 'Discard + Counterspell' = 'Discard + Discard' (I mean, they have the same effect and effectiveness) .

But there are also those (marginal?) situations in which they don't equal.

In my case , for example, I'm interested on the first option for I'm a little worried about the Show and Tell MU. It sees a lot of play around here, and the players have adopted Leyline of Sanctity as a standard SB protection, bringing it in against Elves too.
Because of this, for many times my discards sat useless on my hands. The split with the counterspell seems superior in this case.
Hence, if I get the chance, I think I'll try the split between Discard + Counterspell, in order to try to gain an edge on this specific MU.

Now, I wonder about which counterspell to try. Would Spell Pierce be better than Envelop?
In theory, the first can disrupt more targets than the latter (e.g.: Spell Pierce also hits artifact mana sources from Storm Combo) ...

i completely agree with you. ive only recently started playing elves (before i was an avid player of turbo eldrazi) and i see what your saying. i was only commenting on the fact that elves as a whole has really pinpointed itself into GB and a splash of other colors and and simply U is the weakest of splashes in my opinion. i dont have many people in my area that play decks that warrant the need to run a U splash. of course this is all subject to change. with toxic deluge and true-name nemesis showing up elves may have to evolve into a stronger blue splash to cover their presence. as for leyline i said before i run thorn and trap and a maindeck ruric to stop the other combo matchups. the games that discard comes in against for me are sneak and show, turbo eldrazi, etc. if i was going to run a counter spell, spell pierce or swan song both had homes in turbo eldrazi so id go with what i know has come thru for me in the past. i see that swan killing me but id hope that if i use it im going to win next turn and only need to survive

[Kayradis]

Alright.
Deck is all double sleeved and partially foiled (you know how hard is it to find effin' foil Glimpses?)

Im pretty sure I can fight thru anything but still have reservations against UWR.

I don't face that match up too often around here, so anybody got ideas for SB options?

[danyul]

Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.

[Tormod]

Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.

I agree with you 100%

Maybe they have some special technique against Elves that I don't know about. But facing a tempo deck with 7 md spot removal has been really rough for me. 3 of these list popped up at my local, and I've switched to another deck until I can figure a way to beat them or until their presence has diminished. Maybe Thorn of Amethyst is something to be looked at again? *shrug*

[trevaftw]

Against UWR/RUG delver I bring in 3 abrupt decay, 2 scanvenging ooze, 1 progenitus (I run 4 NO main. keep all in). I side out 2 heritage druid, 1 craterhoof behemoth (leaving 1 ruric thar plus the sided in progenitus), 2 nettle sentinel, 1 quirion ranger

[chinEsE girl]

At least from my experience UWR has the same weaknesses as RUG, which is their reliance on delver to kill you before you can overcome their removal. Stuff like stoneforge or lavamancer are annoying, sure, but those things don't kill you very quickly. It's the god damn delvers that do. So I like to bring in all my decays, shaman, ooze, and any other anti-fair cards I have in my board. My game plan is just decay their delvers (sometimes lavamancer or equipment if need be) and just generate more cards than them over a longer game until they lose. From my perspective, UWR is just another delver deck, so if you can beat RUG consistently I feel that you should be able to beat UWR as well.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.

Definitely board in Decay; it kills everything relevant they have (particularly Engineered Explosives, gah) and their counters do nothing against it. In my experience Scavenging Ooze is a beast because there will be many dead creatures (mostly elves, sadly). Elves has some really great activated and triggered abilities so I don't know why they would board out Stifles. Fetch lands, Wirewood Symbiote, Craterhoof Behemoth, Regal Force for those few who still run it. It's rare to come against enough counters to be relevant, enough burn to be relevant, AND enough threats to provide a fast enough clock to kill you before you do stuff. But if that does somehow happen you're dead I guess. I don't recall ever losing to that deck with Elves though.

[Benjammn]

A couple of things about the UWR matchup:

1. I'm convinced it is the nightmare mu. I don't know how these other pilots say they never lose to it. I think Elves fares badly against the fair decks that pack more than 4 spot removal, multiple forms of repeatable removal/wipes, and counterspells. This is why Elves in Modern never took off with Beck (because every deck overloads on creature removal since every combo is creature-based).

2. Ruric Thar isn't a good answer. His downside really comes to play here as he gets taken out by STP or Bolt and Delver. I'm not going to waste a NO for 6 damage.

[SpencerS]

I am now convinced that No-Pro is the plan you want to be on post board for the UWR match. The hand attack a close second, b/c the abrupt decay plan is to reactionary for a blue deck with too many answers and a better late game plan IMHO.

Typically ( and if you saw me on camera you will know I believe this to a fault.....) delver decks side OUT daze on the draw. it isn't good. If you think your opponent is a traditional sideboarder, you only really have to worry about FOW/Pierce/Envelop. So when you are on the play you can expect to bait out their FOW with glimpse for value, not combo glimpse. Wait for an opening and go for a NO-Pro.

My board plan for UWR now is: +1No +1Pro +3 Cabal Therapy. -1 Hoof, -3 Visionary -1 Heritage.

[lordofthepit]

I like how Elves players haven't reached a consensus on how to sideboard. It makes it more difficult for the opponent to know what to expect in G2/3.

Also, I think there's a lot of merit in mixing up your sideboard plans if two diverging plans seem "too close to call" with respect to their effectiveness.

[Julian23]

To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

[Kayradis]

Can't wait to read it!
Good thing that you were on Everyday Eternal podcast. Good laugh + Arnold impressions from the guys
Im packing my stuff for DC at the moment. Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!

[danyul]

At least from my experience UWR has the same weaknesses as RUG, which is their reliance on delver to kill you before you can overcome their removal. Stuff like stoneforge or lavamancer are annoying, sure, but those things don't kill you very quickly. It's the god damn delvers that do. So I like to bring in all my decays, shaman, ooze, and any other anti-fair cards I have in my board. My game plan is just decay their delvers (sometimes lavamancer or equipment if need be) and just generate more cards than them over a longer game until they lose. From my perspective, UWR is just another delver deck, so if you can beat RUG consistently I feel that you should be able to beat UWR as well.

I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(


Can't wait to read it!
Good thing that you were on Everyday Eternal podcast. Good laugh + Arnold impressions from the guys
Im packing my stuff for DC at the moment. Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!

Cut a 1/1 split?


To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

I am excited to read this!

[yaWgnorW]

A couple of things about the UWR matchup:

1. I'm convinced it is the nightmare mu. I don't know how these other pilots say they never lose to it. I think Elves fares badly against the fair decks that pack more than 4 spot removal, multiple forms of repeatable removal/wipes, and counterspells. This is why Elves in Modern never took off with Beck (because every deck overloads on creature removal since every combo is creature-based).

2. Ruric Thar isn't a good answer. His downside really comes to play here as he gets taken out by STP or Bolt and Delver. I'm not going to waste a NO for 6 damage.

I think most Delver matchups are along similiar lines; however UWR is a particularly gruesome MU. I find myself putting in 3 Decays, 2 Pithing Needles, and Prog. I have Ruric main deck now, so I usually side him out; while he looks great against tempo I just haven't succeeded in using him in the MU. If on the play I'll consider some sort of discard, but I never liked discard on the draw vs UWR.


To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

Can't wait.

[blind]

I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(

You can play Meekstone.


Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!

PLAY 4 QUIRION ! :)

[jedi_gof]

You can play Meekstone.



PLAY 4 QUIRION ! :)

Meekstone is the shit vs delver decks. Only geists really gets to attack more than once. Delvers, nemesis etc are reduced to one shot only critters :)

[catmint]

To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

Looking forward to the complete report in case the downsize it.
Did writing the report keep you from reading/replying to my private message Julian *fg*.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:
That's quite cool. I can't wait to read it. If they make you cut it, save your longer draft for later publication.

[catmint]

I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(

Postboard is negative against competent opponents who bring in flusterstorms, submerges and rough tumbles.

Preboard I had much better results with my recent list where I play 0 llanowar evles and 4 birchlore.
The best strategy RUG has is to kill every elf so their taxing counters/mana denial is live while they beat us down. Birchlore is best setup to combat this because it allows you to dumb your hand faster and turns every body into a manasource.

I have progenitus main (although that might change for Ruric thar if I figure out everyone else is right or the meta is appropriate), but I learned that Progenitus is the best weapon. Which also means that postboard we are forced to be the "aggro-deck". That means there is a chance we catch him on the "wrong foot" and win, but we are force to play into his flusterstorms/rough-tumbles more than you would like since you don't have enough control elements to stop his attackers... So if he plays perfectly and/or has all the answers you just lose post-board.

Overall I think my current take against RUG is still slightly negative but much better than my old approach.

[Julian23]

Looking forward to the complete report in case the downsize it.
Did writing the report keep you from reading/replying to my private message Julian *fg*.

Writing/finishing the report was actually almost all i did for the entire last week whenever I came home from work. So yeah, one might say that I was mildly disctracted.

Basically, my last 5 days looked like this:

9:00 - 18:00 spent at work
18:00 - 20:00 chillout
20:00 - 01:00 work on the report, mainly
01:00 - 02:00 watch another episode of Game of Thrones and go to bed.

I almost feel relieved going back a more regular schedule now although I enjoyed writing a lot!

Let me say that I feel really honored by your offer but didn't really get to think about it a lot tbh ;-) If everything works out, I might be able to make it to GP Vienna, so maybe we'll run into each other there?

[blind]

problem of understanding ;)

[Julian23]

@blind: I think you completly misunderstood what he was saying. Being "the shit vs Delver" carries a very positive conotation.

[blind]

@blind: I think you completly misunderstood what he was saying. Being "the shit vs Delver" carries a very positive conotation.

Really? So I'm sorry :)

[danyul]

LOL. I can't read French but I love that you went off like that, with a block of text, and then immediately apologized, smiley face and all. There is no language that I enjoy hearing (or pretend-reading) in angry tones more than French. I actually can't tell if youre angry, but if you are not, please don't say. I want that block of text to stay a happy mystery.

Now I will go find some nice Meekstones. Then I will take over the world.

[Eternal]

normally, we don't need to improve match ups which are already good. TT is complex, try to turn around tempo spells, with some decay and ooze, we are fine. And meekstone, we can probably do without. Moreover, meekstone is not enough versatile, prefer decay which is acceptable vs many match ups.

[limbo]

"is shit" = very bad, "is THE shit"= very good. English is ridiculous.

[danyul]

That is one bad bitch = That is an attractive woman
Bad Ass = Cool guy, regardless of the state of his ass
I feel sick = I do not feel well
That shit was siiiick!! = That shit was very cool. Also that shit was probably not poop. It was likely an event of some kind.

English is crazy!

On topic comment - keep your ears pointy in DC, guys.

[MaximumC]

I tied for first place (even down to every tiebreaker) at 2-1-1 in a five-man Vintage tourney yesterday with Elves. I bring it up here because the metagame was actually very Legacy-like, and I was trying out a different take on the little green men. The decks in the tourney were: 5-color dredge; UW angels (fully powered); zombie-themed Dark Times; and merfolk with a transformational sideboard into Standstill.

Here's the list I ran, more or less (and yes, it's 61 cards):

Big Mana Elves

The mana dorks (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic

4 Priest of Titania
2 Elvish Archdruid

The utility dorks (12)
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Quasali Pridemage

Card draw (5)
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature

Tutor (7)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Natural Order
2 Weird Harvest

Win Cons (4)
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Mirror Entity
1 Umbral Mantle

Mana (14)
1 Savanna
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Forest
1 Mox Emerald

Sideboard (was mostly irrelevant, but had more Oozes, Thalia, etc)

The concept here was to play the aggressive role but have so many options that an opponent cannot simply lock you out with Plague or Chalice and move on. The deck's goal is to land a Priest or Archdruid and then go bonkers with mana production. I won in various contexts by hardcasting Craterhoof, going off with GSZ and Heritage druid, beating with Umbral Mantle on a dude, beating with a big Ooze through two Plagues naming Elves, etc. Here are some of my thoughts on playing this:

1. As you all probably can see, this list has huge problems with fast combo decks. My only loss was to Dredge, but it wasn't even close. Cages in the board might help, as well as more black splash for thoughtseize out of the board as is traditional.

2. Umbral Mantle is better than Staff of Domination. Like Staff, it goes infinite with Priest or Archdruid fairly easily, but it does so at cheaper cost. Once you hit four elves total, Mantle means all of your Elves are 1,000,000 / 1,000,000 during your attack step. Unlike Staff, it is a great card in the aggro matchup even if you do not have an active Priest. Mantle on a mana dork or Arbor essentially reads: 2: +2/+2. That's actually really good.

3. I like the Weird Harvest plan when it came up, but it didn't come up often. The idea here is if you have a Priest active with a few elves, you Harvest for 2 or 3: a Ranger or two and some massive monster. You then plop the Ranger, untap the Priest with the Rangers to generate massive mana, and then deposit the monster. Harvest allows you to generate mana, which makes it potentially better than GSZ in some circumstances, and it doesn't require you to bin one of your elves, which makes it better than Natural Order in others. Allowing your opponent to tutor was a problem once, however, when they went to get a Snapcaster allowing them to flashback a counterspell to stop my monster. Finally, I am going to go get my hands on a Mistcutter Hydra and try that out, because he gets around exactly this problem in exactly this circumstance.

[Lemnear]

Honestly, you can just take the basic list and win the tourney instead of running a Priest/Archdruid-Budget-List.

I joked about playing Elves in the BoM Vintage Mainevent (joked with Julian about it if I remember correctly) but was stupid to do not so and instead was setting up trades. However, I did run the list for fun in a Proxy-Vintage tourney after returning from Paris out of curiosity ... It's plain nuts :D



@Language upfucks:

You won't be surprised if I tell you, that in german the problem is exactly the same xF

[MaximumC]

Honestly, you can just take the basic list and win the tourney instead of running a Priest/Archdruid-Budget-List.

I joked about playing Elves in the BoM Vintage Mainevent (joked with Julian about it if I remember correctly) but was stupid to do not so and instead was setting up trades. However, I did run the list for fun in a Proxy-Vintage tourney after returning from Paris out of curiosity ... It's plain nuts :D



@Language upfucks:

You won't be surprised if I tell you, that in german the problem is exactly the same xF

Hah, the list I was using is many things, but I wouldn't call it "budget."

Anyway, yeah, I've run traditional elf combo in Vintage before. The problem is that the traditional list essentially tosses up a GG to Chalice at 1, since you are very hard pressed to get your mana going without one drops to get to your later drops. This list, with more 2-cc elf dorks, mitigates that somewhat.

Similarly, if you have essentially one plan to victory, the opponent knows exactly how to take you apart. My working theory with this brew is that you have many more angles to exploit. I won by randomly topdecking all of the following: Umbral Mantle, Glimpse of Nature, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc. An opponent who boards to answer your first game deck is not necessarily prepared for the next one.

[nudon]

Sorry for the double post but here's my response to a question regarding UWR delver in my recent tourney report for those struggling with the match-up.

"The main differences between American delver and RUG are clock speed and graveyard reliance. American delver packs more spot removal (bolt, STP, and jitte) but is generally slower due to jitte requiring 4 mana. It also has 3-drops (GoST) whereas most RUG builds don't. Typically, the only card from patriot that relies on the graveyard is grim lavamancer (maybe snapcaster mage too). Meanwhile, both mongoose and goyf are heavily affected by the presence of scavenging ooze.

Fortunately for us, there is a lower chance of seeing submerge and rough//tumble from patriot post-board. As a result, I would board as follows: -2 heritage, -2 nettle, -1 quirion, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 sliver, +1 NO, +1 prog. Sliver is included instead of ooze to counter their jitte. Though ooze would help against lavamancer, I tend to avoid diluting the combo too much. Furthermore, the life gain from ooze isn't as relevant too. Because of how much spot removal patriot has and their slower clock, I think progenitus makes more sense in this matchup than against RUG."

For reference, my boarding strategy against RUG delver is: -2 heritage, -2 nettle, +3 decay, +1 ooze. I advocate decays as opposed to therapies because the scariest delver hands involve delver + plenty of disruption. Decay kills all of their creatures (except GoST) and any relevant artifacts. This is brutal for them as most delver variants only run 12 to 14 creatures. In my personal experience, having 18 non-arbor lands really shines in the delver matchups too because their wastelands and stifles don't hit as hard. Building the mana base is generally the toughest part with regards to delver. This is why I don't board out any quirion rangers against RUG. With regards to meekstone, I think it's a great card against RUG delver. That said, I think there are worse match-ups (i.e. miracles) to dedicate those sb slots to. On that note, I look forward to Julian explaining how he approached the match-up back-to-back-to-back times. Congrats again!

[yaWgnorW]

"is shit" = very bad, "is THE shit"= very good. English is ridiculous.


Honestly, you can just take the basic list and win the tourney instead of running a Priest/Archdruid-Budget-List.

I joked about playing Elves in the BoM Vintage Mainevent (joked with Julian about it if I remember correctly) but was stupid to do not so and instead was setting up trades. However, I did run the list for fun in a Proxy-Vintage tourney after returning from Paris out of curiosity ... It's plain nuts :D



@Language upfucks:

You won't be surprised if I tell you, that in german the problem is exactly the same xF

Yup, both languages have the same problem; thing is, its slang. I don't think 'is shit' and 'the shit' were meant to be used in the way they have been the last 10 years.

[blind]

"is shit" = very bad, "is THE shit"= very good. English is ridiculous.

Yeah.. Thanks for the english lesson. :)

[Chrandersen]

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Progenitus
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Dryad Arbor
Lands (17)
1 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
Spells (11)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Sideboard
2 Meekstone
1 Scavenging Ooze?
1 Priest of Titania
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
3 Thoughtseize

Play this in D.C. Progenitus is a house right now. No more perish and sidesteps TNN with a jitte. Priest is good again because Sneak and Show is the best combo deck. Everything else is pretty standard. People who play less than three llanowar elves are crazy. Its just your best possible turn 1 play, nbd. Also, Ruric Thar is cute, but only really good against Infernal Tutor. Not good enough for an entire slot IMO.

[Zombie]

With regard to Elves in Vintage, I recall a certain tournament report. Was from Matt Elias I think.
"I cast Llanowar Elves. He casts Ancestral Recall, a slightly stronger card from the same set."

[Lemnear]

With regard to Elves in Vintage, I recall a certain tournament report. Was from Matt Elias I think.
"I cast Llanowar Elves. He casts Ancestral Recall, a slightly stronger card from the same set."

Thus you run playsets of the green tinker, Ancestral Recall and Tolarian Academy ;)

[Kayradis]

Still toying with some ideas at the moments. My MB is still not fixed. Probably gonna do that tonight. The plan is to attack the grinders and test the overall meta, get my head back into game mode since that 17 hrs drive dumbed me to a whole new level, and foil some more shit. Ill post a pic of my actual list tonight.

I got 1 Bye already, so I don't really have to do the grinders, but 2 byes is better.
Anybody else is sleeving elves for today?
Ill be wearing a green hoodie with a HOMIES snapback ball cap.

Just come to say hi! and sign my plain THESOURCE playmat!

[trevaftw]

I'll be there tomorrow playing elves. Going to be wearing a plain red t-shirt but I'll have a Missouri back pack on.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Still toying with some ideas at the moments. My MB is still not fixed. Probably gonna do that tonight. The plan is to attack the grinders and test the overall meta, get my head back into game mode since that 17 hrs drive dumbed me to a whole new level, and foil some more shit. Ill post a pic of my actual list tonight.

I got 1 Bye already, so I don't really have to do the grinders, but 2 byes is better.
Anybody else is sleeving elves for today?
Ill be wearing a green hoodie with a HOMIES snapback ball cap.

Just come to say hi! and sign my plain THESOURCE playmat!

Good luck, man. Show them that the pointy-eared hoofmeisters got it going on.

[Kayradis]

Found my store sweater. Will wear a black Quantum Frontier Games & Comics hoodies w/ a black logo. Look for a dark blue THESOURCE playmat

[danyul]

Good luck guys! Post updates if and when you can!

[Elvish Visionary]

I will be there with my elves this weekend.

as of right now my SB is looking like this
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Absolute Law(possibly Ruric)

I really wouldn't mind fitting Meekstone into the board

@Chrandersen a few notes/questions about your list. I do like the list and can really get behind Progenitus main but why the switch to the Priest, you mentioned Sneak & Show, but why specifically does sneak & shows popularity have an affect on playing Priest? Your list is pretty close to what you ran at your last SCG Event, how did the priest work out? did you ever hate seeing it?

Also I noticed that you only have one basic, I used to have that but switched to 2 basics after some bad tourneys(no mana) is it worth playing 61 cards for the 18th land?

Lastly, the cut of the 4th Heritage Druid, did that seem to hinder you ever I have always thought of that card to be pretty essential to have 4 of.

[AznSeal]

Hello! Here is my current Elves list.

Creatures [31]
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

Sorceries [11]
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands [18]
3 Forest
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB [15]
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar, the UnBowed
3 Thoughtseize

Now I'm thinking of switching over to a more toolboxy main deck to try to have better matchups against the field at the cost of being less explosive. My tentative idea is

Creatures [32]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ruric Thar, UnBowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Sorceries [11]
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands [17]
1 Plateau
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB [15]
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

[Chrandersen]

I will be there with my elves this weekend.

as of right now my SB is looking like this
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Absolute Law(possibly Ruric)

I really wouldn't mind fitting Meekstone into the board

@Chrandersen a few notes/questions about your list. I do like the list and can really get behind Progenitus main but why the switch to the Priest, you mentioned Sneak & Show, but why specifically does sneak & shows popularity have an affect on playing Priest? Your list is pretty close to what you ran at your last SCG Event, how did the priest work out? did you ever hate seeing it?

Also I noticed that you only have one basic, I used to have that but switched to 2 basics after some bad tourneys(no mana) is it worth playing 61 cards for the 18th land?

Lastly, the cut of the 4th Heritage Druid, did that seem to hinder you ever I have always thought of that card to be pretty essential to have 4 of.

Sneak doesnt have a way to kill a priest so if you untap with her, you win the game usually. Also if they cast a show and tell, you putting in a priest is better than emrakul or griselbrand. Once again, you untap and kill them. I think priest is better than most people give her credit for. If you untap with her you almost always win the game. If you dont, no big deal. Make them have it.

I have never had consistent mana problems with the configuration I'm running. I think playing 61 cards is a bad idea.

Heritage Druid is the worst card in the deck. Now that we are a Natural Order deck over a glimpse deck, the effect isn't as important. Also its useless in multiples, and if its specifically needed in a situation, we can always still GSZ for it. The only defensible argument for playing four is that most people think it's way more important than it is, and a lot of misguided forces, bolts and swords tend to get sent her way. Usually I can beat those players anyway though, so I'm not too worried about that.

[Julian23]

If I was to cut a card from my list, it would also be the 4th Heritage Druid. Just saying.

On another note, seems SCG delayed my article. I had sent it in on Wednesday but didn't publish it yet...? Guess it will be up any time now.

[blind]

Sneak doesnt have a way to kill a priest so if you untap with her, you win the game usually. Also if they cast a show and tell, you putting in a priest is better than emrakul or griselbrand. Once again, you untap and kill them. I think priest is better than most people give her credit for. If you untap with her you almost always win the game. If you dont, no big deal. Make them have it.

I agree Priest is a good card versus Sneak Show but not a win condition. You win if you untap with her AND if you have a key card in your hand (Glimpse, Natural Order, GSZ, Behemot) AND your opponent haven't a Force of Will.
Priest is good if you have a good card in your hand but it's not a awesome card as you say. I don't understand how you can think : Priest > Grisel if you untap. Without discard spell (Cabal or Thoughtseize) or several key cards you can't win.


People who play less than three llanowar elves are crazy. Its just your best possible turn 1 play, nbd.

So I'm crazy. :) Yes it's your best possible turn 1 but after this turn it's your worst draw. It's why DRS is pretty good because DRS is good in mid-late game.

[danyul]

Check it out. Pretty cool, yeah?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=766198&viewfull=1#post766198

I wonder how many of those points were put up by Julian's recent big finish?

Gaea grows stronger by the day.

edit - NVM. That data is for October. Daniel grows dumber by the day.

edit edit - Assuming Priest is replacing another elf, I can see how running one in a Sneak & Show heavy meta would be good. Also, with this deck gaining popularity, having access to a Priest in the main would help turn the tables in the mirror match. And in theory I agree with the third Llanowar. I just don't know what to cut. :(

[andrebonotto]

Hello to all,

Nice discussions. And it seems that some big tournaments are happening this weekend.

Well, I just came by to tell you that tomorrow I'm going to play at the Brazilian National (Legacy) tournament.

Wish me luck there.
(I wish good luck to all elven coleagues who will play this weekend!)

If I fare good, then I'll play Sunday at the Top 8 and get some prizes... :tongue:

[264505]

Check it out. Pretty cool, yeah?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=766198&viewfull=1#post766198

I wonder how many of those points were put up by Julian's recent big finish?

Gaea grows stronger by the day.

edit - NVM. That data is for October. Daniel grows dumber by the day.

edit edit - Assuming Priest is replacing another elf, I can see how running one in a Sneak & Show heavy meta would be good. Also, with this deck gaining popularity, having access to a Priest in the main would help turn the tables in the mirror match. And in theory I agree with the third Llanowar. I just don't know what to cut. :(

I've been testing all evening and found myself wanting a Birchlore in place of the third Llanowar. The rest of the maindeck that chranderson posted looks good and is probably what I'm running tomorrow.

[Dice_Box]

Who wants to take bets on how long it takes for the calls to ban Cradle/Hoof start raising from the haters?

[MaximumC]

Who wants to take bets on how long it takes for the calls to ban Cradle/Hoof start raising from the haters?

Oh for pete's.... no. C'mon, I know Magic players are a whiny bunch, but Elves loses to Chalice and Sphere (or *shudder* totem) just like Dredge loses to yard hate. And Green, while it's fun to play, doesn't have the counterspell suite to protect the brokenness. No one is petty enough to ask for a hasty beater who dies to Swords to Plowshares to be banned.

Are they?

[Kayradis]

So, to force myself NOT to audible at 8am tomorrow morning, signed in for the sleep in special and handed my deck list.
Foiled a good part of the deck. The lands are the next in line (after I found 2 more fucking birchlores and 1 glimpse...)

Im pretty confidant the deck will do well.
But...I haven't seen a lot of D&T in the grinders...weird...

[apple713]

Who wants to take bets on how long it takes for the calls to ban Cradle/Hoof start raising from the haters?

cradle is good, but its not ban worthy. I think cradle makes elves viable, which is healthy for the format.

[264505]

I will be jamming this tomorrow.

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Progenitus
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Dryad Arbor
Lands (17)
1 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle
Spells (11)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Sideboard
1 Meekstone
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Harmonic Sliver

Wish me luck. I'll be in a black long sleeve and khakis with shoulder length blonde hair and a goatee.

[yaWgnorW]

Check it out. Pretty cool, yeah?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=766198&viewfull=1#post766198

I wonder how many of those points were put up by Julian's recent big finish?

Gaea grows stronger by the day.

edit - NVM. That data is for October. Daniel grows dumber by the day.

edit edit - Assuming Priest is replacing another elf, I can see how running one in a Sneak & Show heavy meta would be good. Also, with this deck gaining popularity, having access to a Priest in the main would help turn the tables in the mirror match. And in theory I agree with the third Llanowar. I just don't know what to cut. :(

Nice, thanks for link.


Who wants to take bets on how long it takes for the calls to ban Cradle/Hoof start raising from the haters?

I think that hate has been around since the early parts of Summer when the legend rule changed, and Elves became more popular. I think it is crazy that people want one card banned, that is currently really only viable in one deck that can still be beaten out with proper hate.

[Kayradis]

Had 1 bye
2-0 ATM. Crushed D&T

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Had 1 bye
2-0 ATM. Crushed D&T

WTG. D&T really struggles against us. Can't wait to hear about the rest of your travails.

[Kayradis]

Worst GP I ever played. Scrubbed so hard I almost fucking flipped a table...


Got crushed by The Spanish Inquisition....

I got real mad on that one.
Left and now I am drinking.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Worst GP I ever played. Scrubbed so hard I almost fucking flipped a table...


Got crushed by The Spanish Inquisition....

I got real mad on that one.
Left and now I am drinking.

:frown::cry::eek:
It happens. Even the best decks stumble. Hang in there.

[Megadeus]

That Elves player on cam looked REAL good. Is he a sourcer? I mean he had a damn sick draw, but holy shit I did not realize how well this deck could come back from a sweeper. He got 3 and 4 for 1'd by Golgari charm in game two vs Shardless and it still didnt even matter. That game wasn't even close.

[264505]

I ended up finishing 7-2 on Day 1, but since I couldn't play Day 2, I scooped to Stephen Mann in round 9 after beating him in 3.
Rd1-W Merfolk 2-0
Rd2-W Esper Stoneblade 2-1
Rd3-L Esper Stoneblade 1-2
Rd4-L RWU Delver 0-2
Rd5-W BG Pox 2-0
Rd6-W NO RUG 2-0
Rd7-W UR Delver 2-0
Rd8-W Jund 2-0
Rd9-W Rug Delver 2-1 (Scooped 1-2)

[Zombie]

That Elves player on cam looked REAL good. Is he a sourcer? I mean he had a damn sick draw, but holy shit I did not realize how well this deck could come back from a sweeper. He got 3 and 4 for 1'd by Golgari charm in game two vs Shardless and it still didnt even matter. That game wasn't even close.

Cuneo? He's the same dude who made Reid Duke's winning pile of pointy-ears.

EDIT: Just watched Cuneo's G1. Was constantly grinning and thinking "My god this deck is broken" to myself.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Where did you watch this?

[Zombie]

http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/480336562
5:30:00

[Julian23]

Good to see Cuneo going undefeated with Elves.

I also watched that match vs Shardless BUG. Don't want to say "great comeback" since I don't feel he was ever behind, but still very solid play :-) Shardless BUG is, especially during 1, such a miserable deck to play against Elves :-)

[Zombie]

I wonder what the sense was in going T1 Tar Pit, T2 Bayou, Decay. Could've gone Bayou, DRS, T2 Tar Pit, Decay and had more board presence that way. It's not much, but little things do count especially when you want to start casting two-drops and Brainstorms or Agenting things up.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/480336562
5:30:00

Thanks.

[Juice11]

I wonder what the sense was in going T1 Tar Pit, T2 Bayou, Decay. Could've gone Bayou, DRS, T2 Tar Pit, Decay and had more board presence that way. It's not much, but little things do count especially when you want to start casting two-drops and Brainstorms or Agenting things up.

I'm not 100% sure what you are referring to, so I may be off. I thought tar pit comes into play taped. So you couldn't play abrupt decay on turn 2 if you played it that turn.

[HammafistRoob]

Tar Pit does come in tapped, but with a turn one Deathrite you'd still have two mana turn two. Unless there is no land in the graveyard...

[264505]

Tar Pit does come in tapped, but with a turn one Deathrite you'd still have two mana turn two.

Not without a fetch land.

[Julian23]

That only though works if Cuneo starts on a Fetch. He might but if he doesn't, your mana is screwed and you only get to Decay on turn3 which is way to late to have a significant effect on the game. Not to mention that you would rather play something else on the third turn.

[Eternal]

Andrew Cuneo with Elves at this moment.... vs MUD

[Havoc]

thats how you play elves. right into that chalice and resolved.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

After an ugly loss in the first game against Metalworker, Cuneo just took the second game even under a turn Chalice at 1.

[yaWgnorW]

After an ugly loss in the first game against Metalworker, Cuneo just took the second game even under a turn Chalice at 1.

Was a nice, patient win from Cuneo. Had he fired that Pridemage off to soon he could have screwed himself.

[Megadeus]

Good to see Cuneo going undefeated with Elves.

I also watched that match vs Shardless BUG. Don't want to say "great comeback" since I don't feel he was ever behind, but still very solid play :-) Shardless BUG is, especially during 1, such a miserable deck to play against Elves :-)

To a player that doesn't know the deck as well like me, it was an amazing comeback. And yes this deck is broken. It's insane!

[Dice_Box]

Elves are not broken, just resilient if you do not over extend.

[Megadeus]

Well that was unfortunate. The Sneak and Show player herped and he derped and he blew a bunch of elves over.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm pretty sure the Sneak Show matchup is the main reason Reid Duke played with a 'board full of discard. Do you know what Cuneo's side looked like?

[yaWgnorW]

I'm pretty sure the Sneak Show matchup is the main reason Reid Duke played with a 'board full of discard. Do you know what Cuneo's side looked like?

Well, from watching we can confirm a majority of the typical cards. Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, Qasali Pridemage. Sadly, I got nothing beyond what we've seen haha.

Is my understanding correct that Cuneo is currently placed at the top spot?

[Havoc]

thinking krosan grips might go in sideboard if humility is in my meta

[Megadeus]

Well, from watching we can confirm a majority of the typical cards. Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, Qasali Pridemage. Sadly, I got nothing beyond what we've seen haha.

Is my understanding correct that Cuneo is currently placed at the top spot?

The only undefeated last I knew

[yaWgnorW]

thinking krosan grips might go in sideboard if humility is in my meta

Couldn't agree more. I just hope I don't find out the hard way that I need to adopt it.


The only undefeated last I knew

Yes, stream confirmed that he was in top 8 win or lose. Not sure how his last game went however, just that his opponent needed to win (I think) to get into the top 8.

[danyul]

thinking krosan grips might go in sideboard if humility is in my meta

Grip is a fine answer for Humility (and other dumb permanents) but Humility is so infrequently played in most metas that I wouldn't worry about it too much. Sure, Ben just lost to it on the coverage, but I don't think there's going to be a sea of Humility decks running around your next Legacy weekly. That was a pretty good meta call though by Sam Black. It looks like there were plenty of decks that would fold to a resolved Humility.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome#3

[264505]

Yes, stream confirmed that he was in top 8 win or lose. Not sure how his last game went however, just that his opponent needed to win (I think) to get into the top 8.

Hes the 4 seed against OwenTs UWR Delver. Should be a bit of a tough one.

[Benjammn]

Hey guys, Ben here. While I was a little nervous being on camera, my lack of understanding what Sam's deck was capable of was my downfall as I think I made tons on mistakes on camera. Aside from never letting Jitte connect, I was basically running blind and definitely didn't know about Humility at all. Anyone have a link to the VODs, I am anxious to watch them. What do you guys think of my SBing (I sided in Decay, TS, Progen and Sliver)?

My final place was 30th. I'm proud but just a little salty even though I wouldn't have T8ed because Spain would have been cool.

[Julian23]

Decay and Progenitus is definitely right. Not so sure about Sliver, would rather have Viridian Shaman. Thoughtseize maybe on the play.

[Benjammn]

Decay and Progenitus is definitely right. Not so sure about Sliver, would rather have Viridian Shaman. Thoughtseize maybe on the play.

I definitely kept my MD Viridian Shaman in.

[DredgingLoam]

Hey. I played Elves at the GP in DC. I finished 12-3 just short of Top 32 (35th) I may be doing a full tournament report, but I will share my list and matches throughout the day.

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Bye
Round 3: RW Pile (Casual player with 2 Byes it seemed) (2-0)
Round 4: Mono-Red Sneak Attack/Dragon Stompy (2-1)
Round 5: Sneak and Show (1-2)
Round 6: BUG Hexmage Combo (0-2)
Round 7: Sneak and Show (2-0)
Round 8: Grixis Delver (2-1)
Round 9: Ad Nauseam Tendrils (2-1)
Round 10: Junk Maverick (0-2)
Round 11: RUG Delver (2-0)
Round 12: Imperial Painter (2-1)
Round 13: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Round 14: BUG (Maybe Shardless) (2-1)
Round 15: Reanimator (2-1)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Caterhoof Behemoth
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

[264505]

Hey. I played Elves at the GP in DC. I finished 12-3 just short of Top 32 (35th) I may be doing a full tournament report, but I will share my list and matches throughout the day.

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Bye
Round 3: RW Pile (Casual player with 2 Byes it seemed) (2-0)
Round 4: Mono-Red Sneak Attack/Dragon Stompy (2-1)
Round 5: Sneak and Show (1-2)
Round 6: BUG Hexmage Combo (0-2)
Round 7: Sneak and Show (2-0)
Round 8: Grixis Delver (2-1)
Round 9: Ad Nauseam Tendrils (2-1)
Round 10: Junk Maverick (0-2)
Round 11: RUG Delver (2-0)
Round 12: Imperial Painter (2-1)
Round 13: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Round 14: BUG (Maybe Shardless) (2-1)
Round 15: Reanimator (2-1)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Caterhoof Behemoth
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

Congrats on the finish! I look forward to reading your report. Any changes youd make to the list?

[Berger]

If anyone of ye wants to make a report. It would be cool to write how you guys sideboard what do ye put in and out(allso why). Im very curious how ye guys SB on matchups like:

Ant/Tes
Miracle
Bug
Uwr
Rug
Elves
Esper
MAveric
Merfolks
SnT
DnT

Im playing like 1.5 year with elves and still sideboards is very confusing for me.

P.S. Love Legacy... so many t1 decks :D

[Dia_Bot]

If anyone of ye wants to make a report. It would be cool to write how you guys sideboard what do ye put in and out(allso why). Im very curious how ye guys SB on matchups like:

Ant/Tes
Miracle
Bug
Uwr
Rug
Elves
Esper
MAveric
Merfolks
SnT
DnT

Im playing like 1.5 year with elves and still sideboards is very confusing for me.

P.S. Love Legacy... so many t1 decks :D

+1! I think somethimes I make little sideboard mistakes that cause matchups not to be as optimal as they could be.

[Poron]

with all the hate for TNN I see coming in terms of Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge and so on.

what is this deck going to answear? Miracle will probably see more play..

[Dice_Box]

Run a single Lord and don't overextend?

[Poron]

I see more Deluge and Terminus coming honestly. A lord helps against Charm (but anyway who can't remove a single lord and then charm?)

[Dice_Box]

Everyone can. Really, the question has been faced before. You run out discard, you do not over extend and you play a slightly slower game. I am not really worried about this, because it's nothing we have not had to face in the past. The only difference will be the numbers we have to deal with. But that said, discard is still a very strong answer and many of us have 6 plus cards in the side.

Also, have a four of Recall in the deck can help.

[Julian23]

People need to differentiate. Charm is annoying, but you're plan against decks that play that card has always been Progenitus anyways. Tolix Deluge on the other hand, could potentially answer Progenitus but it's not putting up anywhere close to the numbers I'd be afraid of. Also, since most decks with access to Toxic Deluge don't run white these days, I'm very interested in trying Cuneo's Worldspine Wurm if Deluge actually becomes a thing (which it should. not only because of TNN but because the card seems really good).

[Poron]

I don't think Deluge will ever be used against Progenitus, Emrakul or Wurm. (unless they're desperate)

I'm just saying that if before TNN, Elves were facing sweepers 10-15% of the times, now it's safe to consider sweepers 30-40% of the time.
Deluge wrecks any tribals (Elves, Merfolk, Goblin), BUG (apart from Tarmogoyf) and any Delver/Stoneforge deck. Not to mention DnT...
I can see it will definitly be played.

apart from CounterTop what else does this deck fear?

[Dice_Box]

What I do not want to face would be:
Stompy
Painter
MUD
Miracles
Dredge

Dredge because I never side for it. The others because they can lock us out. Moon, 3sphere and Chalice are painful. Counterbalance need no introduction.

[Julian23]

From the above, I feel like Painter might actually be a positive matchup, especially if you run Needles and 3 Abrupt Decays. And Viridian Shaman.
Turn1 Blood Moon is an issue, but over the course of the matchup, the odds are still in your favor. You should very likely win the games you go first. And even in the games they get to start, they need to have t1 Blood Moon and hope you're not holding one of you (hopefully) two basic Forests. Not to mention that they need to do this twice.

Infect Stompy can be actually pretty annoying, yeah. But that's Infect Stompy ;-)

[Dice_Box]

Oh I know that Elves can beat Painter. When playing Painter Elves is a match up I would rather not see. But that said when playing Elves a turn one moon or turn two kill are two things I do not want to see.

[Berger]

Painter aint hard matchup. I played against em many times and dont think i ever lost... And Pithing Needle, + abrupt might solve many things. :) after game 1, if opponent starts. If its me playing as 1st i like to put thoughtsize instead of needle :)

Im on Play - > in 2 thoughtsize 3 abrupt.
Im on draw -> in 2 needle 3 abrupt.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe it is because I play both decks, but I tend to Mull down to a hand that can disrupt elves if I am playing Painter or I look for a hand that can race. I do not go for the mid game.

A opening turn moon followed by a Bridge is what I would class as a painfully slow way to win, but an effective one.

[Hanzalot]

I'm very interested in trying Cuneo's Worldspine Wurm if Deluge actually becomes a thing (which it should. not only because of TNN but because the card seems really good).

So his Worldspine Wurm was because he expected Toxic Deluge to show up or does it have other applications as well? I'm thinking it's pretty narrow if it's just for Deluge (but I'm sure Cuneo knows what he's doing)... Also, does anyone know if he got to play the Wurm in any games?

Thanks,
Hans

[danyul]

So his Worldspine Wurm was because he expected Toxic Deluge to show up or does it have other applications as well? I'm thinking it's pretty narrow if it's just for Deluge (but I'm sure Cuneo knows what he's doing)... Also, does anyone know if he got to play the Wurm in any games?

Thanks,
Hans

In his decktech he said it was tech against Sneak and Show. I read somewhere, or perhaps heard on coverage, that he dropped it in off a Show and Tell to beat his opponent's Emrakul.

[Julian23]

Wurm is a very nice alternative to Progenitus in all non-white grindy matchups; mostly BUG as Toxic Deluge and Perish (and if it connects, also Liliana) can handle Progenitus.

He won a game against Sneak Show by putting it into game when his opponent put Emrakul #gg

[lordofthepit]

The main reason to run Worldspine Wurm is so you can get your Timmy on.

Tap four elves, sacrifice Dryad Arbor to cast Natural Order -> Worldspine Wurm
Tap Cradle for 5, Natural Order, sacrificing Wurm, get 3 tokens -> Worldspine Wurm
Cradle as land drop for turn, tapping for 8, cast Natural Order, sacrificing Wurm, get 3 more tokens; cast last Natural Order, get Craterhoof.

It's like Grapeshotting your opponent except with green creatures. Hunting Pack doesn't count.

[danyul]

The main reason to run Worldspine Wurm is so you can get your Timmy on.

Tap four elves, sacrifice Dryad Arbor to cast Natural Order -> Worldspine Wurm
Tap Cradle for 5, Natural Order, sacrificing Wurm, get 3 tokens -> Worldspine Wurm
Cradle as land drop for turn, tapping for 8, cast Natural Order, sacrificing Wurm, get 3 more tokens; cast last Natural Order, get Craterhoof.

It's like Grapeshotting your opponent except with green creatures. Hunting Pack doesn't count.

Anybody who pulls that off in a sanctioned match gets the title "Timmy of Titania."

[Hanzalot]

Thanks all! I'll order one asap - I'm going for the Timmy play :).

by the way, Julian, I followed your comments on the Twitch stream during the elves matches - great stuff.

[Berger]

I think Worlspine Wurm depends on situation we have met. Im 100% sure he is imba against jund. Many times we get e.plague naming elves, so we get progenitus instead of hoof cuz we were afraid of lilliana and we didnt had much creatures to "grow". Then we play porgenitus and hope he wont die giving to our opponent 1-2 turns.

As for jund i think we can easilly -2 hoof, and add +1 Progenitus and +1 Wurm. Worlspine Wurm is mainly good for jund and decks that use nuch mass removal + liliana. Even if we cant win in 1 turn(cuz no hoofs in deck) each of these cards ends game :)

As for BUG its a bit risky, submerge will stop our Worlspine Wurm tactic, while Porgenitus is untouchable. (but only 2 decks in top16 used submerge)

Think that guy was afraid of toxic deluge very much, and thats a reason why he put this wurm, but as you guys can see top8 - 1x toxic deluge 9-16 2xtoxic deluge (3x in top16), no Persih , and only 5 copies of Lilliana in top16.

Havent testes it against SnT, need to test much so will know how it works. So if its only for BUG and Jund witch is quite good machup for us, i prefere to put smth against Ant/tes or miracle in taht spot.

:)

[andrebonotto]

Hello comrades,

I got back from playing the Brazilian National Legacy tournament, as I previously stated.
It was a 8-Round, 153-Players tournament. (Not very big for the US/Europe standards, I know, but still a big one for the 'Legacy scene' on my country.)

I started the day well, but unfortunately ended it up not satisfactorily.

MATCHES:

R1) vs. DEATH AND TAXES = 2 x 0
R2) vs. SNEAK AND TELL = 2 x 1
R3) vs. JUND = 2 x 0
R4) vs. RUG DELVER = 1 x 2
R5) vs. UWR DELVER = 0 x 2
R6) vs. GW M@VERICK = 2 x 0
R7) vs. UW MIRACLES = 2 x 0
R8) vs. UWR DELVER = 0 x 2

Position: 31st

The list with which I played can be found HERE (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elves-nacional-legacy-2013/).

BRIEF COMMENTS:


On R2G3, my Spell Pierce countering a Sneak Attack got my opponent by surprise and get me the time to resolve a Natural Order > Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. That was a very tense moment.

On R3G3 a misplay on my timing to activate my DRS was possible what made me lose that game (and the match). I blame myself so hard for that...

I was proud of beating Miracles by 2-0. Specially after facing 2x Terminuses and a Moat on G1; and a Terminus, a Moat and a Humility on G2.

I need help to approach the Tempo MUs. Specially against this new Patriot ‘plague’. Argh… if felt so miserable to face it…

Despite not facing it, I saw the new Merfolk, True-Name Nemesis all around. That was one of the reasons on why I kept a Viridian Shaman maindeck, and I think I’ll leave it there for a while. Because of it, I expect to see many Toxic Deluges around too, so I’m interested on the discussions on it that are happening.



That’s it. Nothing exciting.

Just a moderate performance which I still wanted to share, since I really put my best efforts on it.

Sincerely,

- André

[yaWgnorW]

Hello comrades,

I got back from playing the Brazilian National Legacy tournament, as I previously stated.
It was a 8-Round, 153-Players tournament. (Not very big for the US/Europe standards, I know, but still a big one for the 'Legacy scene' on my country.)

I started the day well, but unfortunately ended it up not satisfactorily.

MATCHES:

R1) vs. DEATH AND TAXES = 2 x 0
R2) vs. SNEAK AND TELL = 2 x 1
R3) vs. JUND = 2 x 0
R4) vs. RUG DELVER = 1 x 2
R5) vs. UWR DELVER = 0 x 2
R6) vs. GW M@VERICK = 2 x 0
R7) vs. UW MIRACLES = 2 x 0
R8) vs. UWR DELVER = 0 x 2

Position: 31st

The list with which I played can be found HERE (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elves-nacional-legacy-2013/).

BRIEF COMMENTS:


On R2G3, my Spell Pierce countering a Sneak Attack got my opponent by surprise and get me the time to resolve a Natural Order > Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. That was a very tense moment.

On R3G3 a misplay on my timing to activate my DRS was possible what made me lose that game (and the match). I blame myself so hard for that...

I was proud of beating Miracles by 2-0. Specially after facing 2x Terminuses and a Moat on G1; and a Terminus, a Moat and a Humility on G2.

I need help to approach the Tempo MUs. Specially against this new Patriot ‘plague’. Argh… if felt so miserable to face it…

Despite not facing it, I saw the new Merfolk, True-Name Nemesis all around. That was one of the reasons on why I kept a Viridian Shaman maindeck, and I think I’ll leave it there for a while. Because of it, I expect to see many Toxic Deluges around too, so I’m interested on the discussions on it that are happening.



That’s it. Nothing exciting.

Just a moderate performance which I still wanted to share, since I really put my best efforts on it.

Sincerely,

- André

153 players, by any standard, is nothing small. I see your on the 61 card kick as well, seems to be catching. Good job, you still out placed the majority of the tournament. Of course the only card I'm looking at is your Spell Pierce. I haven't seen counter spells in Elves since the early part of summer. How did it work for you in other matchups other than the Sneak and Show one?

[Benjammn]

Tournament Report for Ben Ketel, 30th at Grand Prix: Washington DC


Hello everyone, figured I'd do a quick and dirty game-by-game of my pretty nice weekend in DC. I went into the tourney with no byes ready to battle with the following list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg


I considered either doing a 61-card special for an additional Dryad Arbor, but didn't feel strongly enough about it to get another one. I played Ruric Thar in the main three weeks ago in the Eternal Weekend and while I think it was correct to do so there I decided against it this weekend and it ended up being a good choice. 3 Decay was great as well. I played in one grinder on Friday and got 9 packs after punting against Storm by not leaving DRS up when he went to Past in Flames game 3.

Round 1 - Justin on UWR Homebrew

No byes = playing nonsense decks. Well, at least this nonsense deck didn't have sweepers or counterspells. Game 1, he played a Legacy's Allure which stole my turn 1 DRS after I used it to play out my hand of Elves. He plays two Delver of Secrets, but I draw two Cradles which let my hardcast my Craterhoof on my turn 4. Game 2, he Merchant Scrolls for Cunning Wish. I cast Glimpse and chain into some amount of elves. He then Cunning Wishes for Orim's Chant, but lacks another mana to cast it in response to my Natural Order for Craterhoof. I never asked him what he was actually playing, but he said he was handed the deck and was just playing because he was close. Whoever gave him that pile of stuff is a dummy. :tongue:

Round 2 - Jesse on Maverick

Game 1, he has a turn 2 Thalia with GW lands puts him on Maverick. Too bad Thalia doesn't prevent me from casting my hand of one drops and when he casts Sylvan Library on T3, I respond in kind with Natural Order. Game 2, he has Hierarch into Mother of Runes and Sylvan Library, but he doesn't have a Wasteland for my Cradle which goes crazy with my turn 1 Llanowar Elves and 2 of both Symbiote and Visionary (best friends forever!). I find Behemoth eventually.

Round 3 - Paolo on RUG Delver

Game 1, my first Glimpse is FOWed, my second resolves which chains into a huge board which is backed up by two Natural Orders in hand. Game 2, he Bolts my turn 1 Quirion Ranger, Submerges my turn 2 Nettle Sentinel, then presents a clock with Tarmogoyf. Scavenging Ooze, however, shows up and ruins Goyf's party, his next Delver is met with an Abrupt Decay, and then a Visionary finds a Behemoth which I can hardcast evidently. I really wonder how many times I hardcasted him this weekend...

Round 4 - Riley on Elves!

My first loss, as he wins the die roll. We turn 3 NO all three games (although mine was significantly more lucky as he TSed me for my GSZ and I topdeck my NO to kill him).

Round 5 - Tom on Sneak and Show

Game 1, he gets stuck on Island, Lotus Petal for a long time. He Forced my Natural Order at one point, but I go on the aggro plan and kill him with dudes and DRS activations. Game 2, I have very little gas and he has plenty of time to Sneak Attack into Griselboo, which finds the Emrakul. Game 3, I keep a hand with Cabal Therapy, some elves, and NO. I Cabal Therapy and he Forces. He goes land, Petal go. I draw my Progenitus (/facepalm) and Therapy him again (this time trying to get Emrakul) and I get Spell Pierced. I cross my fingers and pray to the Elven gods, who answer my prayers when my opponent A) Show and Tells and B) doesn't have Emrakul. He dies to Progenitus. I actually did this play during the grinder too, although my discard spells actually resolved (on Sneak Attack and Emrakul).

Round 6 - Will on UWr Miracles

My second loss of the tournament. Game 1, he has natural turn 1 Top, turn 2 CB against my hand of mostly 1-drops. Game 2, we race each other with Clique and DRS but he wins when he gets Karakas going on Clique to keep me from drawing relevant cards.

Round 7 - Sam on Goblins

Game 1, he gets an okay board presence and gets me down to 7 with lethal the next turn, but he taps out to do so and dies to the Hoof (not sure how, not many notes). Game 2, I TS and see Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, 2x Warchief on his mull to 6 with only two land. I take Thalia and start to grow my board presence while he gets stuck goes Warchief into Ringleader which finds him Matron and Chieftain. I Glimpse chain into Scavenging Ooze (during which he never casts MBT) and get him up to 4/4. He casts Chieftain and attempts to Incinerator the Ooze, but I have Abrupt Decay to take out the Chieftain and swing the game heavily in my direction. The Ooze grows to a 10/10 during the course of the game until he becomes a 17/17 which some vigor from a Craterhoof off of GSZ which took me forever to find.

Round 8 - Oscar on UW Miracles

Great, this MU again. Game 1, he kills me with Clique after Terminusing my board twice. Game 2, he mulls to 5 and loses hardcore to turn 4 NO after I get rules-lawyered during a Glimpse chain (Side Note: Yes, I get the point that I'm supposed to know my triggers, but I'm sorry I couldn't come up with the response to your statement of "Resolves" with "the spell or the glimpse trigger?" I know we are both playing for Day 2 but that is stooping really low in my eyes). Game 3 is a long, drawn-out affair, the highlight of which when I Abrupt Decay both his Counterbalance and his followup Clique. I kill him on turn 3 of turns with DRS.

Round 9 - Arthur on Jund

Game 1, he casts Abrupt Decay and Punishing Fire on my first two creatures, but he doesn't have three lands for a long time and I overwhelm him with Hoof. Game 2, he mulls but has discard which slows me down while he gets Bob to refill his hand. He casts a second Bob, which gets him more removal but also ticks his life total down to nine. I topdeck a NO, which allows me to swing with the Viridian Shaman I forgot to side out (doh!) and Craterhoof for the win.

Yay! Day 2 which is a first for me!

Round 10 - Mark on Merfolk

Game 1, he has the billion lords hand with no counterspells and dies after a Glimpse chain. Game 2, I mull down but keep an okay hand that is just slow. He has a lot of Mutavaults into Reejery and Phantasmal Image. I do my coolest play of the tourney when he attacks with Reejery, Image, and two Mutavaults into my Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Mystic, and Viridian Shaman (needed the 2/2). I block Shaman on Reejery and Mystic on a Mutavault, then activate Symbiote bouncing the Mystic targeting the Image. He is left with just Mutas and I have everything minus the Shaman. I win with NO later.

Round 11 - Steven on Dark Maverick

Game 1, he has Gaddock Teeg into both Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary, but I find Cradle and hardcast Behemoth. Who needs NO anyway? Game 2, he has a very hateful hand of Canonist into Engineered Plague (which I Decay), into Enlightened Tutor into Jitte. I can't deal with everything. Game 3, his TS takes my Glimpse over Decay which ended up being a very wrong choice. I get a small board with Cradle and find NO into Progenitus and kill his recently-cast Knight with Decay which would have found Marit Lage and kill me before Progen kills him.

Round 12 - Elliot on Death and Taxes

Game 1, he sees I'm Elves with my Elvish Mystic and goes Revoker on Heritage Druid blind. I play out my non-Heritage-having hand with Cradle and NO him turn 3. Game 2, I get a quick turn 3 NO into Progenitus which he can't deal with.

Round 13 - Tom on UR Delver

Game 1, he has 2 Bolts for my first plays and TNN, but I play out many other elves which include two Visionaries, Nettle Sentinel and Symbiote. I find NO into Hoof and he has no Force. Game 2, he gets a turn 2 flipped Delver and he does a better job racing than my DRS which is the only thing that lives after he gets Grim Lavamancer. I attempt to NO into Ruric Thar at the last possible moment, but he has Submerge. Game 3, I protect a DRS until I finally hit 6 mana for Ruric Thar.

Round 14 - Bob (16th) on Team America Delver

Game 1, we both play DRS. He Hymn to Tourachs me, so I think he's Shardless. He then Dazes my next Visionary, eliciting a raised eyebrow from me. I draw three Cradles this game, all which get Hymned or Wastelanded. He finds Tombstalker to threaten me in the air but I finally get NO to kill him. Game 2, I get a quick NO into Progenitus and despite him having two DRS and active Delver the race ends in my favor.

Round 15 - Sam Black (T4) on Bant

You can see the coverage here, starting around 5:35:00 (http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/480598617). Game 1, I simply played to my outs despite drawing both Craterhoofs and sandbagging the hell out of that Cradle. I think Sam needed to be more aggressive; if he had swung with the Ooze, I would have been forced to block and not have enough creatures to cast Hoof which I very clearly had. I also realized I should have attacked with the V. Shaman over DRS as it might have mattered a lot. Game 2 was unfortunate as that Clique basically won him the game. I usually fetch Forest then Bayou when I have two fetches, but I guess I will reconsider in the future when I have Decay in hand. Either way, mull to 5 hurts a lot. Game 3, I made my worst mechanical mistake of the tournament which was casting that T2 Glimpse. I got excited when I drew the Cradle as with DRS or Llanowar Elves in play and Heritage Druid in hand means an easy T2 Glimpse, but Quirion Ranger is neither of those things. I love how the commentators thought he was wrong to Envelop when Sam was perfectly right. I got blindsided by Humility as I didn't really look over specifics of Reid's deck (namely SB) before the tourney and lost game 3 because of it. Well, I know better now and would have SBed a lot differently (i.e. more discard I think...). I've learned my lesson and am better because of it.

All in all, I had a great time and definitely had luck on the match-ups I faced all weekend. I honestly don't think I could have picked a better deck and if I had held up my edge and known more about Sam Black's deck I could have had won my PTQ final as well. With Eternal Weekend and the GP, my Legacy fire was lit again and I'm proud with how well I've done. We'll see what happens in the future; I'm moving to Detroit this week and might look into some local SCG Opens in the near future. I want to keep this up before the meta shifts significantly against Elves (not saying it will after this GP, but you never know).

[Lemnear]

Awesome read! Thx for putting this one together

[Darklingske]

What I do not want to face would be:
Stompy
Painter
MUD
Miracles
Dredge
One deck that I absolutely hate seeing when playing Elves is Reanimator. Fast combo, disruption and a beast that kills everything (Elesh). No, I do not want to see that thing!

[Zombie]

Tournament Report for Ben Ketel, 30th at Grand Prix: Washington DC


Hello everyone, figured I'd do a quick and dirty game-by-game of my pretty nice weekend in DC. I went into the tourney with no byes ready to battle with the following list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg


I considered either doing a 61-card special for an additional Dryad Arbor, but didn't feel strongly enough about it to get another one. I played Ruric Thar in the main three weeks ago in the Eternal Weekend and while I think it was correct to do so there I decided against it this weekend and it ended up being a good choice. 3 Decay was great as well. I played in one grinder on Friday and got 9 packs after punting against Storm by not leaving DRS up when he went to Past in Flames game 3.

Round 15 - Sam Black (T4) on Bant

You can see the coverage here, starting around 5:35:00 (http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/480598617). Game 1, I simply played to my outs despite drawing both Craterhoofs and sandbagging the hell out of that Cradle. I think Sam needed to be more aggressive; if he had swung with the Ooze, I would have been forced to block and not have enough creatures to cast Hoof which I very clearly had. I also realized I should have attacked with the V. Shaman over DRS as it might have mattered a lot. Game 2 was unfortunate as that Clique basically won him the game. I usually fetch Forest then Bayou when I have two fetches, but I guess I will reconsider in the future when I have Decay in hand. Either way, mull to 5 hurts a lot. Game 3, I made my worst mechanical mistake of the tournament which was casting that T2 Glimpse. I got excited when I drew the Cradle as with DRS or Llanowar Elves in play and Heritage Druid in hand means an easy T2 Glimpse, but Quirion Ranger is neither of those things. I love how the commentators thought he was wrong to Envelop when Sam was perfectly right. I got blindsided by Humility as I didn't really look over specifics of Reid's deck (namely SB) before the tourney and lost game 3 because of it. Well, I know better now and would have SBed a lot differently (i.e. more discard I think...). I've learned my lesson and am better because of it.

All in all, I had a great time and definitely had luck on the match-ups I faced all weekend. I honestly don't think I could have picked a better deck and if I had held up my edge and known more about Sam Black's deck I could have had won my PTQ final as well. With Eternal Weekend and the GP, my Legacy fire was lit again and I'm proud with how well I've done. We'll see what happens in the future; I'm moving to Detroit this week and might look into some local SCG Opens in the near future. I want to keep this up before the meta shifts significantly against Elves (not saying it will after this GP, but you never know).

Congrats on the finish, love your build. Time to do some editing on mine perhaps ^^
And yes, Elves is broken :P

On the Sam Black match, when you went for NO(Visionary=>Shaman) facing Jitte, you could've alternatively done NO(DRS=>Symbiote), which likewise takes care of Jitte but provides you with draw power to get out of the rut. It's a bit more risky, but you were behind by a lot so might as well go for broke.

[andrebonotto]

153 players, by any standard, is nothing small. I see your on the 61 card kick as well, seems to be catching. Good job, you still out placed the majority of the tournament. Of course the only card I'm looking at is your Spell Pierce. I haven't seen counter spells in Elves since the early part of summer. How did it work for you in other matchups other than the Sneak and Show one?

Thanks! :smile:

61 cards:

I was having trouble trying to find what to cut. I wanted both Ruric Thar and Viridian Shaman MD (plus, I didn’t want to lose any of the SB cards I had chosen.)
So, since Julian Knab had success with his 61-cards deck, I decided to accept the 'risk' of playing the extra card for, in my thoughts, it felt better to me having the 'handicap' of the extra card than having the one of lacking one of the cards that I wanted.
If I were to cut the extra card, I would lean toward cutting one Needle from SB, then move Viridian Shaman to its place.
But the 61 cards was just the compromise which I liked better at the time.


Tropical Island MD / 3x Spell Pierce SB:

I wanted to reinforce my T1 answers against combo decks (since, normally, they would start on the play on G3, and a T2 answer from our side could not be fast enough there, namelly, against storm).
But I didn’t want to play more than 4 discard effects, since I wanted to avoid having all of them dead to a Leyline of Sanctity (Show and Tell decks have great presence here, and I faced this situation more than once, before). The answer to be chosen should be efficient against storm too, so I opted to split my combo hate between 4x discard and 3x countermagic, hoping to catch my opponents by surprise with the latter.
I chose Spell Pierces instead of Envelops for its greater targeting range.

At the tournament, I used the Spell Pierce only against my Sneak and Tell oponent , so, I don't have a broad experience with the card. I don't know if I should have sided it in against any of the other MUs that I faced...



Tournament Report for Ben Ketel, 30th at Grand Prix: Washington DC

(...)
REPORT
(...)


Congratulations! That was a nice read and performance! :smile:

You must have been very tense when making that comeback on your last turn, G1 against Sam Black... It was a shame that you didn't get to take that whole match ...




(...)
On the Sam Black match, when you went for NO(Visionary=>Shaman) facing Jitte, you could've alternatively done NO(DRS=>Symbiote), which likewise takes care of Jitte but provides you with draw power to get out of the rut. It's a bit more risky, but you were behind by a lot so might as well go for broke.

I think that would be a really really risky move to make against a deck that has Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorms, and an active Jace TMS.
I would certainly go for the guaranteeded Jitte destruction.

EDIT: Wohoo! My 100th post! :laugh:

[Benjammn]

If anyone of ye wants to make a report. It would be cool to write how you guys sideboard what do ye put in and out(allso why). Im very curious how ye guys SB on matchups like:

Ant/Tes
Miracle
Bug
Uwr
Rug
Elves
Esper
MAveric
Merfolks
SnT
DnT

Im playing like 1.5 year with elves and still sideboards is very confusing for me.

P.S. Love Legacy... so many t1 decks :D

I'll write out my SB plan for these lists with my MD/SB from the GP that you can see in my report above. I'll go ahead and say that when I side things out I usually do a bunch of one-ofs that I take out in the approximate following order: Heritage Druid, Elvish Visionary, Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, GSZ. Anyways, here goes:

Storm: +4 Cabal Therapy, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Thalia, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Rurik Thar, -3 Elvish Visionary, -1 Viridian Shaman, -5 one-ofs. We want as many discard spells and preventative measures as humanly possible. Visionary is way too slow, but leave one in to Zenith for with Symbiote if the game goes long.

Miracles: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Progenitus, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Harmonic Sliver, (+2 Thoughtseize), -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Viridian Shaman, -4-6 one-ofs. Abrupt Decays for CB are crucial. Gaddock Teeg is for the sweepers and Harmonic Sliver can kill CB as well off of GSZ. Progen, despite being Terminus-able, still takes out huge chunks of their life total and demands the sweeper. I like TS just to be a bit proactive about other hate cards like Supreme Verdict or Pyroclasm, but I can see not needing those either.

Shardless, RUG, UWR, Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, DNT, Jund: +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Progenitus, +1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -6 one-ofs, (-1 Viridian Shaman vs. RUG, Jund). Their hate is usually permanent-based, so no matter what it is, TS and/or Decay can kill it. Decay is also really good vs. Delver of Secrets out of the RUG, BUG, and UWR lists. Viridian Shaman stays in to deal with Aether Vials, Jitte, Strix/Shardless, Batterskull, and to go to town on DnT, but it doesn't do anything vs. RUG or Jund so side it out in those MUs. Also, none of these decks have cards that deal with Progenitus outside of Liliana of the Veil, so try to keep some creatures around. Scavenging Ooze is also a must-kill for many of these decks.

Elves: +4 Cabal Therapy, +2 Thoughtseize, -1 Viridian Shaman, -2-3 Elvish Visionary, -2-3 one-ofs. The mirror is all about speed. Discard is vital to stop your opponent from killing you on T3 or even T2. Also, a trick die to win the roll would be a good thing. :wink:

Sneak and Show, Omnishow: +4 Cabal Therapy, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Progenitus, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Harmonic Sliver, (+1 Ruric Thar, +1 Thalia vs. Omnishow), -3 Elvish Visionary, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Viridian Shaman, -4-6 one-ofs. You try to strip their combo pieces and resolve an NO ASAP. Based on what your opponent has, you should judge what you actually get with NO. If your Omnishow opponent is stumbling on lands, get Ruric Thar. If you can win with Hoof, get it, but otherwise heavily consider Progenitus as he limits the amount of drawing they can do with Griselbrand. Sneak Attack is really bad for us. Consider keeping hands with Progentius/Ruric Thar if you think you can manipulate your opponent into Show and Telling (i.e. strip Emrakul and Cunning Wish instead of Show and Tell).

[Atikin]

This is more a point for discussion, but what are everyone's thoughts on the amount of natural orders and glimpses in the main deck? I feel like natural order is the much stronger card compared to glimpse, and even in multiples I prefer having 2 natural orders instead of 2 glimpses in hand. Would something like -1 glimpse + 1 natural in the main hold any merit?

[Lemnear]

This is more a point for discussion, but what are everyone's thoughts on the amount of natural orders and glimpses in the main deck? I feel like natural order is the much stronger card compared to glimpse, and even in multiples I prefer having 2 natural orders instead of 2 glimpses in hand. Would something like -1 glimpse + 1 natural in the main hold any merit?

You can force in playsets of both within a 60-card list without trouble.

[Dice_Box]

I run 4 of each and like it like that. I would lean towards cutting NO over Glimpse personally. NO is the more powerful card that wins games, but more often that not a 5 card draw off the back of Glimpse gets me that NO I need.

[Kayradis]

Alright.
After my dissapointing finish at GP DC, I decided to shelves ELVES! for a couple months(maybe until GP Paris???!)
Bad match ups(seriously....Spanish Inquisition Round 4?);
Slight misplay that costed me games and lack of preparation from my part costed me a Day 2 at the GP.
Still love the deck but I think I need to put my head into something else in the following months in order to not get bored by the deck.

Debating about sleeving TES or some storm combo.

[Lemnear]

Alright.
After my dissapointing finish at GP DC, I decided to shelves ELVES! for a couple months(maybe until GP Paris???!)
Bad match ups(seriously....Spanish Inquisition Round 4?);
Slight misplay that costed me games and lack of preparation from my part costed me a Day 2 at the GP.
Still love the deck but I think I need to put my head into something else in the following months in order to not get bored by the deck.

Debating about sleeving TES or some storm combo.

It's the natural drain by sticking at a single deck for too long. I have the same with TES atm and going to give the Elves a ride or toying around with Miracles once more.

Wish you the best, Gabe

[Kayradis]

Thanks Peter!
BTW, you Xmas present should be leaving Canada today ;)
Hope you enjoy it!
So....you're going to Elves and Im going to TES?
Let's swap decks?

[Lemnear]

Thanks Peter!
BTW, you Xmas present should be leaving Canada today ;)
Hope you enjoy it!
So....you're going to Elves and Im going to TES?
Let's swap decks?

I have both decks pretty much fully foiled so there's no need. ;D

I'm not sure how well positioned TES is with the recent metashift away from midrange towards Tempo and the next already on the horizon (thx to TNN). Battling Esper Deathblade (counter + discard + hatebears) or similar colored tempo-decks for weeks now leave a bad Taste in my mouth for running TES, as this decktypes + several Miracles is all I'd face through BoM and the following weeks.

Could only get better if peeps craft their decks around TNN, I guess ;)



Edit: I may found some nice stuff for you at the BoM. Maybe get grip of BigUp aka Malte in Berlin and get the stuff altered ^_^

[Dice_Box]

If you want to play something totally different I suggest Burn or Painter. I have burn sleeved for when I just hit the wall and do not want to think. I play Painter when all I want to do is think. The other deck I like is Goblins, but I stuck with that deck for 9 straight years and will not touch it now. I am taking a year break from them. If you want to test them out I can send you a list.

[Benjammn]

Heh, I picked up TES pieces this past weekend too. Not that I plan putting Elves down forever, but I do want to expand my Legacy horizons.

[Lemnear]

Heh, I picked up TES pieces this past weekend too. Not that I plan putting Elves down forever, but I do want to expand my Legacy horizons.

You are welcome ;)

[Zombie]

It's totally natural to want to play Goblins after a while of monogreen stompy. Black life drain decks are also good I hear.

[Lemnear]

It's totally natural to want to play Goblins after a while of monogreen stompy. Black life drain decks are also good I hear.

It's even better if it's both possible in the same deck! XP

[AznSeal]

So what's everyone's opinion on Ruric Thar maindeck? What about him sideboard? And what about worldspine wurm?

It seems like we have too many toolbox options and too little space haha

[HammafistRoob]

Julian, did I miss your BoM report or is it not finished yet?

[Benjammn]

So what's everyone's opinion on Ruric Thar maindeck? What about him sideboard? And what about worldspine wurm?

It seems like we have too many toolbox options and too little space haha

Ruric Thar MD only seems to be a choice where you expect lots of Storm. I guessed correctly that Storm would show up at Legacy Champs and not GP:DC, so I played it MD in the former and SB in the latter (I still lost every G1 at Champs with it MD, but that is beside the point). Worldspine Wurm is....interesting. Cuneo's reasoning is the Sneak and Show MU, but Progenitus is servicable here too. I Show and Telled Progenitus twice at GP:DC and won because they had Griselbrand instead of Emrakul, but Wurm is much more safe against both Emmy and Grisels.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Julian, did I miss your BoM report or is it not finished yet?

I think he's posting on SCG and they're still editing his 20 page report. But I may be misremembering.

[Dice_Box]

No that sounds about right to me too.

Can you post an unedited copy here?

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

No that sounds about right to me too.

Can you post an unedited copy here?

My guess is that his contract with SCG will preclude that for 30 days. I'd love to see the unedited report, myself.

[lordofthepit]

In case you guys haven't seen it yet, part 1 of Julian's report is live on SCG.

[Dice_Box]

Fount it, thanks.

Link: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27386_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-1-.html

[Lemnear]

It's strange to read my alias on SCG instead of my name ;D.

EDIT: don't like reading my name online anyways. Bad for biz

I only recommend the Birchlore-list in metas where speed really matters (aka combo-meta) and you want to drop your hand asap (and your SB hate) as Birchlore + Nettle is really nasty for early Glimpses or NO (the later often fed by a cradle in addition; as usual for turn 2 Natural Order). Machine-Gun-DRS is still insane with Birchlore in play, but I sure can support the conservative choice for this tourney.

It's a hell of a report! Was a lot of fun hanging out at the BoM, pal ^_^

[264505]

Ruric Thar MD only seems to be a choice where you expect lots of Storm. I guessed correctly that Storm would show up at Legacy Champs and not GP:DC, so I played it MD in the former and SB in the latter (I still lost every G1 at Champs with it MD, but that is beside the point). Worldspine Wurm is....interesting. Cuneo's reasoning is the Sneak and Show MU, but Progenitus is servicable here too. I Show and Telled Progenitus twice at GP:DC and won because they had Griselbrand instead of Emrakul, but Wurm is much more safe against both Emmy and Grisels.

I feel like Progenitus can race too. Its not out of the question to have 6 other permanents against a SnS deck on turn 3 or so. I ran with Progen main deck at the GP and it won me a couple game 1s I may not have won with Craterhoof (even while being sub par in a few matches). I still think its a reasonable option main if you are looking at a SnS heavy meta.

[yaWgnorW]

Julians article is up on SCG? Finally :D.

EDIT: Julian, great read on there so far. I can't wait for the other part to come out. I'm particularly pleased with your insights on most of the MU's. Overall we had the same thoughts regarding many, but there were cases where I hadn't considered something you mentioned. I'm sure this will be a go-to bookmark link for many Elves players for a long time.

[Hanzalot]

@Julian:

One of the best and most in-depth reports I've read - I can't wait for the second half.

Thank you very much for writing it!

[andrebonotto]

Fount it, thanks.

Link: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27386_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-1-.html

Thanks for the link!

@ Julian:

Wow, great article! I was eager to read it, and now I'm even more to get my hands on the 2nd part! :smile:

I found it very helpful to read your reasoning behind all the choices made through deck design and sideboard plans.

Congrats, now, for the article!

[Dice_Box]

Julian posted on Salvation that it will be two parts total. He also asked if people could go and comment on it he would be ever so thankful. I do not have a Facebook account so I am unable to but if you guys want to head over and say a few words on SCG for him I can see him smiling.

[danyul]

Excellent article Julian! I commented on it on SCG. Also, your PM box is full! You popular guy!

[Julian23]

Thank you so much everybody, I'm really incredibly happy you guys appreciate the article so much! As Dice_Box said, if you feel like, head over to SCG and leave some feedback on their page :smile:

@Dan: AGAIN?! Ok, made some room.

http://i.imgur.com/yvpusHz.jpg
Can we get #ElfSide trending on Twitter? :cool:

[Lemnear]

Dropped line as well^^

[Dice_Box]

That pic... Why do people not just drop in here and ask those questions...

[MD.Ghost]

Great article Julian! I printed out 22 Pages at my office, to get something like a "newspaper" for my lunch break at the local backery. I really like it - and it was only "part one" :cool:

[Myelectronicdays]

Love it Julian! You have a nice passion about the deck and how it plays out, makes me excited to sleeve this bad boy up again sometime soon.

[Said-In-Contest]

Great article on SCG!!
I really enjoyed it. Looking forward to read the pt2 with the BOM report!
Today i faced the Nemesis Bant during an online test.
Since I was expecting Meddling Mage post board I sided in 3 decay, and additional NO (i have progenitus in the MD) and 2 Pithing Needles.
So:

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Natural Order
+2 Pithing Needle

-2 Glimpse of Nature
-2 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

# Abrupt Decay: vs their equipments and Meddling Mage.
# Natural Order: as you said lots of times, against midrange decks NO for Progenitus is something they hardly be able to handle, so easy side in.
# Pithing Needle: for Jitte, Stoneforge, Knight of the reliquary, wasteland, batterskull....yeah it has some targets XD

-2 Glimpse: i think they will focus on some kind of hate that won't let us "storm" and also I'd like to be more "NO oriented".
-2 Nettle Sentinel: siding out the glimpse they lose a bit of utility IMHO, also they will never deal a damage through the great wall of beasts they have XD
-1 Heritage Druid: this is the side out that upsets me most...I don't think we want to lose the mini-combo "wirewood + visionary" also been a great combat fog generator...but also, having one less of these heritage will slow us down a bit for the NO plan...we can afford it right?
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth: well, 2 combo beasts are enough post board I think...and I don't want any brick, but just useful cards XD

What do you think about this sideboarding plan?
Do you agree? Or is this a total crap? XD

[Lemnear]

@Julian

Was about time I found you on FB, geez! XD

[Berger]

@Julian - v.nice article especially with SB :)

But ill still keep my option that Mindbreak trap when u r on draw is quite good, cuz it can stop glimpse/Virewood+Visionary combo :P

Maybe it will change some day ;)

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Excellent article Julian. I loved it. So much passion and great play advice. It really is a gift you've given we pointy-eared players. We are much obliged.

[BJeagle]

I wrote this on julians SCG article, and now i think that perhaps was the wrong place for my question?

here is a copy.

"I realise that the best elvedeck is green with a splash of black, discard and so on.
But I’m trying to make it monogren. Don’t ask why but that’s my plan.

Can you and the other elflovers help me with that? Here my deck…

12 Forest
4 Gaea’s Cradle

2 Dryad Arbor
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

1 Priest of Titania
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Natural Order
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Meekstone
4 Thorn of Amethyst

[r3dd09]

Been play testing Elves *not because of Julian, surprise, I know ;)* and probably will be my side pet deck besides my storm decks. Having beta duals for the deck makes it even better... now time to get some German foils.

[Lemnear]

I wrote this on julians SCG article, and now i think that perhaps was the wrong place for my question?

here is a copy.

"I realise that the best elvedeck is green with a splash of black, discard and so on.
But I’m trying to make it monogren. Don’t ask why but that’s my plan.

Can you and the other elflovers help me with that? Here my deck…

12 Forest
4 Gaea’s Cradle

2 Dryad Arbor
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

1 Priest of Titania
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Natural Order
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Meekstone
4 Thorn of Amethyst

This is not the budget- or fun-forum to discuss builds without fetches or duals because of budget limitations or just because you are in the mood to run something funky. This thread's goal is to tune the deck.

You are missing why this deck is a DtB: It's because of the black-splash. It allows you to run discard to fight control and other (faster) combo decks, gaining access to Decay to have undenyable answers to annoying permaments like counterbalance or Chalice and making this the best Deathrite Shaman Deck in the format with all the untap-effects available, which I heared is a good card ;)



Edit: you may should take a look into Julian's article again in terms of initial mana sources

[Kayradis]

Last night, I shelved elves in their dedicated green leather deck box.
As sad as it sound, I need to play something else for a couple months to get myself out of the habits.

Probably gonna play U/w or U/r Delver decks.
I miss tempo/control

[danyul]

Lately I have been catching myself playing on autopilot and making very simple mistakes. So I understand where you're coming from. It makes sense to step away from a deck for awhile to get a different perspective and keep things fresh for when you go back, whenever that is.

Go forth and explore the other vast realms of the multiverse! But do not forget the benevolent shade of Gaea and your Elder Tree!

[LeoCop 90]

"I realise that the best elvedeck is green with a splash of black, discard and so on.
But I’m trying to make it monogren. Don’t ask why but that’s my plan.

Just to immediately end this discussion : it is not difficult to turn the deck into mono-green. Just play more llanowar elves in place of deathrite shaman, don't play fetchlands, and substitute off-color sideboard cards with green/artifact options.

Abrupt Decay --> Krosan Grip (or,if you want to kill creatures,mortarpod,dismember)
Discard spells --> Thorn of Amethyst, Mindbreak Trap, basically any card that annoys combo decks,since the primary reason of discard in sideboard is to fight combo.
Qasali pridemage --> Viridian Zealot

The rest of the list is the same, and i'm sure it can be competitive in local scenes. Not expect to win with it at big events anyway.

EDIT: also, if you read the fantastic opening post by danyul, he was so kind to include answers to commonly asked questions regarding budget lists that frequently occurred in the previous elves thread.

[Phelix]

http://mtgpulse.com/event/14942#212297

WORLDSPINEWURM.

I mean... uhm. its the same size as emrakul, and semi-survives sweepers, but reeely? when is it the best option?

[MD.Ghost]

http://mtgpulse.com/event/14942#212297

WORLDSPINEWURM.

I mean... uhm. its the same size as emrakul, and semi-survives sweepers, but reeely? when is it the best option?

If your opponent has no white exile removal. Wurm kills faster than Progenitus, you can cast it from your hand and it survives sweeper or non-white removal and sac. effects.

But Death & Taxes is a common deck to beat (don´t worry about this matchup, but progenitus is still a much better creature g2/3), UWR Delver rises more and more and Esper/Deathblade also profits from the TNN print. So Progenitus is still the "safer" way for a sideboard monster if you must fight to more removal game 2 and 3.

[LeoCop 90]

Honestly, when i first saw worldspine wurm in return to ravnica spoilers, i thought it could be played in this deck..... but then I just sleeved progenitus because everyone was doing so.
In the end the difference is not big, but worldspine is probably better against non-white decks.

[Phelix]

its better against perish, but isnt that about it?

[Quasim0ff]

It's for SnT. :)

[Megadeus]

They show, you battle for 15. They battle for 15, you sacrifice and make more wurms. Battle for 15. Wurm seems good

[Phelix]

they show, play a bunch of blue spells and win?

i think its more than 2 years ago that someone actually showed a creature into play against me in a sanctioned irl match

[Megadeus]

Mono U Omni is becoming less popular. I haven't seen it do anything in awhile honestly.

[Absolutflipz]

I'm sure it's been brought up before deep within the pages, but I've recently started using Hornet Queen after seeing Worldspine Wurm from Cuneo.

It counters Emrakul (plenty of permanents to sac and deathtouch blocker) and Griselbrand and is also great against Delver variants, as it dodges Rough and gives you 5 "baleful strixes" basically.

Its downside when compared to Wurm is Toxic Deluge.

[Dice_Box]

Part 2: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27397_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-2.html

[Darklingske]

Nice report Julian! Not to denigrate your result (far from!!), but boy, your R4 opponent was really dumb just scooping up his cards G1. But hey, sometimes it pays to get a bit of luck!

[Captain Hammer]

Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinal
4 Heritage Druid
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Priest of Titania
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Should this card instead be a second Craterfoot Behemoth?)
1 Craterfoot Behemoth
1 Regal Force
1 Bane of Progress
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Gaea’s Cradle
15 Forest

Adding fetchlands, natural order and the 1cc Planeswalker is out of my budget at the moment so the above was my best attempt at the deck foregoing those cards.

[Kayradis]

Julian, I read your part 2 while having breakfast.
I actually really enjoy your style of writing. It's pretty entertaining.
Did SCG offered you a gig or it's a one time deal?

Looking forward to read more of your stuff!

[Lemnear]

Julian, I read your part 2 while having breakfast.
I actually really enjoy your style of writing. It's pretty entertaining.
Did SCG offered you a gig or it's a one time deal?

Looking forward to read more of your stuff!

Congratulations spotting me on FB. ;)
Was free to send out a few requests myself; just in case you wondered Daniel

[Kayradis]

I should be a Private Eye. Im too good at this! ;)

[Lemnear]

I should be a Private Eye. Im too good at this! ;)

I plain suck at such things. Daniel, your site looks like a food-blog/CollegeHumor crossover ... love it

[danyul]

I plain suck at such things. Daniel, your site looks like a food-blog/CollegeHumor crossover ... love it

:tongue: I just call 'em how I see 'em.

[Kayradis]

Elves! players ASSEMBLE....on FB.
hahaha

[Dice_Box]

Can't, I don't have an account.

[nudon]

@Daniel: Agree with Lemnear that elves is a one of a kind thread. Only DtB with this much fun haha!

@Julian: I just commented on the 2nd part of the SCG article. Very nice read. I think I'll try those needles to help with the miracle matchup. :)

[Kayradis]

I really do believe we have a good, alive and entertaining thread here.
Dan, how was your veggie burger? ;)

Also. Im lending my deck to a new player for a Win-Some-Duals(Proxies allowed) tournament Im running here in January.
When she asked what she should know about the deck, I've sent her here and to Julian's article.
But....how can I make it more compact? I still think that Dan has a good way to explain the interactions, she really wanna play elves, but I don't know if she understands everything. Ill guess Ill have to walk her step by step(oooooooooh baby, wanna get to you giiirl....)


[get the reference?]

[Dice_Box]

Send her to some Vids, the stream and the recent DC Prix both are not bad places to start. Really that's how I learn. I can read until the cows come home but it's not until I watch and do that I understand. That's why I am happy to lose 4 weeks in a row just to nut out how to play something. Because once I get it, I am gold. This is also what I suggest to others.

Also, does your friend know the other legacy decks and understand their framework? Sitting across from Dredge if you have no idea how it works makes for some daunting learning experiences.

[danyul]

I really do believe we have a good, alive and entertaining thread here.
Dan, how was your veggie burger? ;)

Also. Im lending my deck to a new player for a Win-Some-Duals(Proxies allowed) tournament Im running here in January.
When she asked what she should know about the deck, I've sent her here and to Julian's article.
But....how can I make it more compact? I still think that Dan has a good way to explain the interactions, she really wanna play elves, but I don't know if she understands everything. Ill guess Ill have to walk her step by step(oooooooooh baby, wanna get to you giiirl....)


[get the reference?]

I ate it anyway since I am a degenerate.

As far as teaching a complete novice how to play the deck, I would send them to Chris Andersen's article from last year. I linked to it in the primer I think but here it is just in case (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23712_Legacy_Week_Always_Be_Cobbling_An_ElvesPrimer.html). That has a good breakdown of the very, very basic interactions in the deck. The primer here kind of leaves that out in favor of a more advanced set of tips. I could probably add a whole section on how to play the deck, for complete novices. But I left it out because I assumed people knew how Heritage + Nettle worked. The thing is, complete newbies don't often see that stuff. So it might help to add a section on that...hmm. More work to do!

I am also intending to link to/quote Julian's sideboarding tips since those are the most comprehensive ones probably anywhere on the internet right now. That way all the good stuff can be in one place.

Also, you are kind of evil for giving Elves to a new player. They will either figure it out and love it or be confused and hate you!

[Kayradis]

She can't hate me, Im waaaaaayy too good looking and charming for that.
She also asked for it. Can't say no to one cute magic player. Sorry. But the universe has one universal rule : Boobies rule everything.

I'm a dork.
Im teaching her the basics of the deck tonight. I have D&T build so she can slowly learn.

[Dice_Box]

What does she normally play or are we talking brand new at the format?

[Kayradis]

She's a good drafter and has a better than average standard play.
But she wants to try the deck.
Time will tell I guess!

[Zombie]

Current Standard should actually be a pretty fertile ground for breeding Elves-capable players IMO. At least last I checked, it's very much an engine/synergy style format in stark contrast to the last few seasons of Goodstuff.decs.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Nice finish to the article, Julian. You're a champ!!

The article got me thinking. The problem with Toxic Deluge is that for some decks/sideboards, it is much more enticing than other cards we dread. Not only can this take out bigger threats (like progenitus), but it doesn't only hate green (like perish or one type of creature (like engineered plague). Elves are such sweet creatures; it's hard to understand why anyone would want to deluge them in anything toxic.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Julian I read both your articles and you are one impressive son of a gun. You beat Miracles like a million times with Elves and almost always 2-0! You're a boss! God of Gaea

[nudon]

She's a good drafter and has a better than average standard play.
But she wants to try the deck.
Time will tell I guess!

Speaking from experience, I think reading Chrandersen's article and getting in actual practice games is the best way to go. I've never played standard and was fine jumping into legacy cold with elves. As long as she has good knowledge of stack/game, it should be fairly quick to pick up. One of the things that really helped me when I first started was being able to group certain elves together functionally:

fyndhorn elves : llanowar elves : gsz-> arbor (DRS didn't exist back then)
nettle sentinel : quirion ranger (extra mana under glimpse chain)
heritage druid : birchlore ranger (glimpse engine)
quirion ranger : wirewood symbiote (maze of ith; hedge against sweeper)
wirewood symbiote : elvish visionary (2 cards under glimpse chain)

Good luck teaching!

[Lemnear]

I expect that breaking down the deck into 2-card combos (Quirion + Llanowar, Quirion + Arbor, GSZ + Arbor, Nettle + Heritage/Birchlore, Symbiote + Visionary, etc.) first and then adding the dimension of those combos expanding up to actual 3-card-combos (Visionary + Symbiote + DRS, Symbiote + Nettle + heritage, etc.) should work out the best.

Imo the most overlooked part for beginners is the fact that Symbiote and Quirion are useable in EVERY turn. Please Highlight that

[Kayradis]

Guys,
I really appreciate you following me with my "teaching" experience. As this point, she understand most of the basic interactions (Wirewood-Visionary/Quirion-Dryad Arbor/QSZ-Dryad Arbor/Heritage-Birchlore-Sentinel).

Im slowly gonna start adding chains and getting into more situational stuff with the deck.
I understand it might not be the easiest deck to learn once you start into legacy, but Im a strong advocate of a steep learning curve in order to improve your overall play.

Also, something I never really mentionned but that I've noticed over the years.
I've started playing legacy at a higher level about 2 years ago. I think Legacy is the best learning tool for players. The amount of mental work you have to put into understanding/mastering a deck have quite a higher threshold than most of standard decks.
Here comes the relation :

Legacy play = Better Standard results overall.
I've mostly noticed that on myself, but also on Strikingone (my card pool partner) and some close friends I run the gauntlet and go to tournament with.

[bfeingersh]

Hey Elves people. If my board is a tapped forest (from Port) and a Llanowar Elf, and my hand consists of Cradle, Heritage Druid, Symbiote, Craterhoof, Viridian Shaman, and 2 Nettle Sentinels, is there any way to cast Hoof that turn? Assume our opponent has no relevant cards.

Came up in a match at the scg open over the weekend, I kept counting 7 mana but I've never really played the deck before so there may be some line I'm missing.

[danyul]

I tried doing this in my head and my brain exploded. So I scoured the office and made some proxies on index cards and went to work (kinda). I also could only make 7. :(

...so I should probably go back to work!

[Dice_Box]

I can not see a way. Even if there was one, I can not see how you would untapped your Llanowar so you could attack with it. Playing the Hoof that turn as far as I can tell serves no great benefit as it may be large as the only attacker, it will be lethal the next.

[Megadeus]

I see six but not seven. That was fun though. Now I need more elfy puzzles

[Lemnear]

Hey Elves people. If my board is a tapped forest (from Port) and a Llanowar Elf, and my hand consists of Cradle, Heritage Druid, Symbiote, Craterhoof, Viridian Shaman, and 2 Nettle Sentinels, is there any way to cast Hoof that turn? Assume our opponent has no relevant cards.

Came up in a match at the scg open over the weekend, I kept counting 7 mana but I've never really played the deck before so there may be some line I'm missing.

There's no more than 7 possible; tried twice :/

[yaWgnorW]

Hey Elves people. If my board is a tapped forest (from Port) and a Llanowar Elf, and my hand consists of Cradle, Heritage Druid, Symbiote, Craterhoof, Viridian Shaman, and 2 Nettle Sentinels, is there any way to cast Hoof that turn? Assume our opponent has no relevant cards.

Came up in a match at the scg open over the weekend, I kept counting 7 mana but I've never really played the deck before so there may be some line I'm missing.

Pretty sure 7 is the max. The first line in my head was: Tap Llanowar for 1, bring in Heritage. 0 mana. Play and tap Cradle for 2, double nettle. Heritage ability for 3, playing wirewood. 2 left in pool at this point. Return Llanowar to hand, untapping Heritage. Tap for 3, 5 total in pool. Replay Llanowar, leaving you at 4 mana. Tap again with heritage for 7. You can play Shaman but as it costs 3, your pretty much out of luck. To bad the shaman wasn't a 1 cc. BUt yes, casting hoof at that point, even if you had a 1cc would have been your only attacker, about an 11/11.

So a better question, if you could have got to 8 and swung for 11, would you have? And then over the next turn or two try to just use the overwhelming amount of creatures to attack for the win?
Or would you just try to wait for the next turn and get the 1 shot kill?

I personally think I would have casted it then and there. Its situational, of course vs blue its risky either way. You can 'make them have it'. Waiting 1 turn vs decks leaves you susceptible to discard/extra turn for cantrips, wipes etc.

[Kayradis]

Ran the scenario twice. If you had Birchlore instead of Heritage, that could have worked.

[Julian23]

Only 7 mana.

As usual, with Quirion Ranger you would just explode all over his face.

[bfeingersh]

Pretty sure 7 is the max. The first line in my head was: Tap Llanowar for 1, bring in Heritage. 0 mana. Play and tap Cradle for 2, double nettle. Heritage ability for 3, playing wirewood. 2 left in pool at this point. Return Llanowar to hand, untapping Heritage. Tap for 3, 5 total in pool. Replay Llanowar, leaving you at 4 mana. Tap again with heritage for 7. You can play Shaman but as it costs 3, your pretty much out of luck. To bad the shaman wasn't a 1 cc. BUt yes, casting hoof at that point, even if you had a 1cc would have been your only attacker, about an 11/11.

So a better question, if you could have got to 8 and swung for 11, would you have? And then over the next turn or two try to just use the overwhelming amount of creatures to attack for the win?
Or would you just try to wait for the next turn and get the 1 shot kill?

I personally think I would have casted it then and there. Its situational, of course vs blue its risky either way. You can 'make them have it'. Waiting 1 turn vs decks leaves you susceptible to discard/extra turn for cantrips, wipes etc.

Well we know our opponent is goblins based on the plateau/port/vial opening, so he probably won't have anything. Killing his vial means he has to tap his port to play anything, so he can't port our cradle and we can cast hoof the following turn. Which I'm pretty sure we could do either way, but with more untapped dudes (although still more than lethal with just hoof/sentinel/sentinel)

I was just curious for my own sake, since it was a stream feature for the world to watch me play poorly.

[Dice_Box]

Against Goblins in that position I would just kill Vial and then kill him next turn. There is no shame in waiting a turn to kill someone if they are playing a deck that can not kill you in one turn.

[bfeingersh]

I was just curious if I understand how to play the deck correctly (since I've logged all of 12 rounds of play with it), obviously my opponent is super dead either way

[bjholmes3]

Thanks a lot for the article; it made me really start to apply my Quirion Rangers more, and is instantly upped my game significantly. I have a small question, though, that's always kinda nagged at me:

Why is there a split sometimes between Llanowar and Fyndhorn? Is it for protection from Revoker, I guess? That's the best I can come up with, lol.

[Julian23]

Thanks, it's really cool to see that I could help you.

Regarding Llanowar vs. Fyndhorn Elves, the upsides of diversifying are rare occurances of Revoker naming one of them. I also once lost a game to Meddling Mage naming Llanowar Elves which in turn didn't allow me to negate Jitte with Symbiote anymore as the Llanowar was my only Elf for several turns; that one was kinda awkward...

The downside is of course not being able to play all your copies those sweet Foil ALP Llanowar Elves.. ;-)

[Dice_Box]

Well you can always run those shitty V20 Foils...

[Shagstaman]

Ok Ok.... long time lurker, first time poster (thank Julian for this)

I try to avoid forums because in my experience, they bring out the worst in people but from what all I've read (I've been reading up since halfway through the old thread...) yall are a pretty calm bunch and this place is a good resource of collected knowledge. So here I am...

anywho, I got 2 questions for those who would want to help a brother out:

1. What is the best way to interact with dredge game one aside from the obvious combo out on them?? This came up at the last SCG open where I had a turn 1 deathrite, the obv best opener against them outside a turn 2/3 combo hand... and still lost! I attempted to take out a dredger with my DRS and still got ownt. I would give more specifics but really I'm looking for generic help with the M/U because it was pretty obvious I lost that one due to lack of experience only.

2. Who has fought the TNN/blade decks and should I be worried going into the Vegas invitational? I mean is there any reason we need to play cute things like EP on merfolk? Or does it play out like the old UWR/stoneblade matches (which I am quite comfortable with and have a good track record against).

Thanks guys!

[danyul]

1. You just kinda have to race them. Occasionally, a first turn DRS can get them. But unless you are on the play, it usually isn't enough. Luckily, they really have no control of their draws so sometimes their deck just falls apart. I find them to be less consistent than us. Board in Scavenging Ooze and likely the 4th Natural Order. If they are on Manaless Dredge and always choose to be on the draw, board in Thoughtseizes.

2. TNN's dominance just means we need to be more careful about equipment. A Viridian Shaman in the main might be too slow now. Since before we could stall a bit with Wirewood Symbiote block/bounce tricks until we found the Shaman. Now we can't even block TNN so that stall strategy has lost some power. You are mostly afraid of Umezawa's Jitte getting online and TNN is the scariest possible thing to strap a Jitte to. So be sure to pack a little extra artifact destruction.

[PendelSteven]

Well you can always run those shitty V20 Foils...

I'm actually kind of thinking to put an Elvish Mystic in it. :).

Well. I've looked at the current top decklist and saw that my current deck is very much like that of Julian (+1 Ruric Thar, +1 fetch, -1 Forest maindeck), Riley Curran (-1 Quirion, +1 Scooze, -2 Forest, +2 fetch maindeck) and Danyul (-1 Forest, +1 Fyndhorn Elves maindeck). Kind of made me proud of my deck :).

Also. If we forget that Jualian, Riley would change 1 or 2 forest to fetches, the question is: +1 Ruric Thar vs +1 Scooze, -1 Quirion vs +1 Fyndhorn Elves, -1 Forest. Or maybe, just maybe, my maindeck is actually the best of the four :D.

Certainly if I add a fetch, apart from the Thar maindeck my 60 is Julian's 61 - Ruric Thar. That can't be bad :D.

In reality the total difference between Danyul and me - if the deck of him hasn't changed between his Top 8 at the SCGLegacy Open 20-10-13 - is +1 Fyndhorn Elves, -1 Forest main - and +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Scavenging Ooze, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Qasali Pridemage in the sideboard.

Functionally I say 2 Therapy / 2 Thoughtseize is the same as 4 Therapy and 3 Decay / 1 Pridemage is sort of a more diverse split of 4 Decay. If you see it that way and balance is out, I kind of run -1 Decay, -1 ScOoze, +1 Therapy/Thoughtseize, +1 Teeg. At GP Antwerp I actually ran -1 Scooze, +1 Discard functionally.

... So it seems to me I'm more of a Danyul-follower. But I'm kind of glad I haven't found a decklist that 100 % functionally the same as me. Sort of shows I have my own preferences which are not wrong: I just mix and match some choices made in other decks and I guess that makes me proud that I'm a "real" Elvesplayer who adjusts his own deck. Yay :).

[PendelSteven]

TNN's dominance just means we need to be more careful about equipment. A Viridian Shaman in the main might be too slow now. Since before we could stall a bit with Wirewood Symbiote block/bounce tricks until we found the Shaman. Now we can't even block TNN so that stall strategy has lost some power. You are mostly afraid of Umezawa's Jitte getting online and TNN is the scariest possible thing to strap a Jitte to. So be sure to pack a little extra artifact destruction.

Reading this: maybe Viridian Shaman <-> Quasali Pridemage maindeck then now?

Then again... Looking at the sideboarding plan of Benjammn -or was it Benconfituremn :P - I saw +2 Thoughtseize every time. Maybe cutting a Shaman and a Heritage Druid for 2 Thoughtseize maindeck is the sollution we're looking for. Also great in the "mirror" against players who didn't get the memo :).

To back this up, Marius Morger made day 2 of GP Straatsburg - / Strassbourg / Streetsborough :D - in April with 2 Thoughtseizes in his mainboard. So if you're doubting - there's precedent.

[Shagstaman]

Danyul thx for the quick reply..

is there any merit to bringing in cabal therapy vs them? Seems like firestorm or whatever is pretty deadly and its easy to know when its coming from basic poker tells... plus the sac to flashback can take out bridges. Just a thought.

and against the TNN-blade decks, a viridian, sliver, and 3 abrupt decay should be plenty post-board eh? then we just gotta not lose to 3-power clocks...(which can be hard if they are bolting things)

[danyul]

Danyul thx for the quick reply..

is there any merit to bringing in cabal therapy vs them? Seems like firestorm or whatever is pretty deadly and its easy to know when its coming from basic poker tells... plus the sac to flashback can take out bridges. Just a thought.

and against the TNN-blade decks, a viridian, sliver, and 3 abrupt decay should be plenty post-board eh? then we just gotta not lose to 3-power clocks...(which can be hard if they are bolting things)

In regards to Manaless Dredge, Therapy is less than ideal. VS them I would bring in Thoughtseize or no discard at all. The reason being Dredge runs all kinds of weird cards. It is just extremely difficult to correctly call whatever crazy thing they might have in hand. And you are mostly bringing in that Thoughtseize to slow their discard, draw, dredge plan by knocking out whatever non-dredge card they happen to be holding.

I was not aware that Firestorm was a thing to worry about VS vanilla Dredge, but it makes sense now that you bring it up. I would likely be going for a quick Progenitus against them in any case and in a racing situation I'm not sure that discard is worth the mainboard slot. I haven't tested much against Dredge, though, so you may have better insight than I do. I do like the saccing to take out Bridges. That is pretty techy.

That postboard config seems fine VS TNN. But in this new equipment-heavy meta, Qasali Pridemage might be better than the Sliver. That's just me theorycrafting there. I have favored the Sliver in the past.

[Dice_Box]

Against Manaless I would bring in all discard. A blind Therapy I would go after either a Street Wrath or Gitaxian Probe. The reason I say this is that every turn you strip a card is a time walk. Take apart their hand and you get the time you need to win. That deck, once started, is more dangerous than LED dredge because it is all business. There are no masses of mana and draw spells to dredge into. That's the power of the deck.

[danyul]

LOL okay yeah that makes sense.

I just never knew what to name! Are those the only two nondredgy things in their deck? If so then that seems like a solid plan.

[Dice_Box]

No, there are other non Dredge targets, but those are part of the decks draw engine. You remove those and they can not Dredge as they please and have very limited use in the grave. Street Wrath can be used on an Icorid and probe is a dead once in the grave.

Edit.
Also, if you have the choice, put them on the play. You draw a card, they do nothing. Next turn they do nothing but discard. So you get to time walk them without doing anything at all. Lastly, they can't Mull, it breaks their deck. So that's helpful as that sometimes punishes them.

[danyul]

Manaless Dredge players always choose to be on the draw anyways. That's why the Thoughtseize play is so strong against them. You get two free turns instead of one.

Oh wait. I totally misunderstood you. That's pretty clever.

[Julian23]

Manaless Dredge can sometimes just rape you on turn2, but often enough, Turn1 Deathrite with Turn2 Quirion Ranger is something that's pretty hard for them to beat in game1.

After sideboarding, bring in all your Timewalks. If you have to blindcall Therapy on turn1, I'd consider Contagion (or Probe/Street Wraith, if your hand is slow).

Other than that, I also bring in Pithing Needle on Phantasmagorian, which is a fine turn1 play.

I've actually played Manaless Dredge twice over the last three tournaments and each time beat them 2-0 with no other graveyardhate than Ooze. Your goal is to buy as much time as possible, strip them of Contagion and seal the game with either Ooze or DRS+Quirion Ranger. Find the best road between minimizing damage while developing your board onto an unbeatable position. Eating Ichorids is absolutely awesome here and prevents them from getting zombies. If you think that they are just trying to build up Zombies for a lethal alphastrike and you have Natural Order (or a strong Glimpse chain) in hand, rather try eating their Therapies in the draw step to hopefully prevent them from making you discard it.

[Dice_Box]

I like the Needle play. That card, that flipping card. "Discard 6 and go out of control". Yea, might run Needles again.

[Julian23]

Probably the most awesome play you can have is Thoughtseizing them for Contagion on turn1, then dropping Needle on Phantasmagorian and DRS on turn2. GG much?

[PhanTom_lt]

Had an argument about the play with his hand, on the draw versus Death and Taxes: 2 Deathrite, Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Crop Rotation, Bayou, Cradle. What's your play? Does it change if you are on the play?

[Dice_Box]

It is a good hand, but it has no action.

DRS is not great, since they do not run a ton of Fetches and you have none. Crop rotation I feel does take the pain off this though.
Ranger is good here as it can save you from wastelands.
Symboite is never a bad card me thinks.

My play would be:
1) Bayou, DRS
2) Tap Bayou, Ranger, bounce Bayou, Replay into DRS.
3) Cradle, Tap Cradle, Symbiote, Rotate Cradle for Cradle, Tap Cradle, Eat the cradle and then do something with the mana and something I have drawn. The chances of getting something with 3/4 NO, and 4 GSZ on 3 draws is good. If I got a Glimpse turn two I would aim to use the mana I can get turn 3 to try a glimpse combo. But I would be happy with a value glimpse as well.

I am not sure I would keep it if it was game 3 though. Going totally on the luck of the draw is not my thing. But if your facing DnT, well I am guessing you have a bit of time.

[danyul]

Basically what Dice said. Sometimes you get those dude draws and against a fair deck that can be okay. It's obviously not the best hand of all time. You're just hoping to top deck some action.

In other news, earlier in the thread somebody posted a board state question and that seemed like a fun exercise. Solving those mana puzzles is, I think, the most interesting part of playing Elves. So I figured it would be kinda fun to present a board and see what you guys can do with it. This is likely easy stuff for you experienced pilots.

So what can you do with this and would you even do it? And why? The stuff under the Arbor is in your hand. You have not made a land drop yet. Nothing is summoning sick.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg

Another one. Cards in hand are below the land. GSZ can get anything in a standard list. You have used your land drop for the turn. Nothing is sick.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Mobile%20Uploads/13792031-1218-4DAD-BEAB-46BAE1661703.jpg

Have fun! And let me know how easy/difficult this was. I can try to think of simpler/trickier ones.

Also, I have no future as a professional photographer.

[Julian23]

#1: Looks like a 16 damage scenario to me.
#2: Attacking for 23 damage.

<Don't wanna spoil it for people who wanna try themselves>

These are the kind of things you'll learn to solve in very little time once you get used to the deck. I'm pretty sure working on this kind of puzzles will help new players to the deck improve a lot.

[Dice_Box]

I get 16 as well.

Dido on 23.

[nudon]

Thanks Daniel for posting the puzzles since I think they're pretty fun. I get the same result as Julian (assuming no disruption): 16 and 23 damage respectively. It should be fairly easy for experienced players to solve as you stated.

[danyul]

Thanks Daniel for posting the puzzles since I think they're pretty fun. I get the same result as Julian (assuming no disruption): 16 and 23 damage respectively. It should be fairly easy for experienced players to solve as you stated.

My pleasure. Thanksgiving is kinda slow in this house. I needed to kill some time.

I hope some newer players find these interesting. But you guys make it look easy! I need to think of real tricky ones for you. Hmm...