[Deck] The Game - Time To Play the Game. [Archive] - Page 2

Rag Man

07-26-2005, 02:14 AM

Been doing some scouting for the team...and the coaches are looking at this prospect:

Minion of the Wastes (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/TP/Minion_of_the_Wastes.html)

Hmm...

Pros:
- He can potentially be MUCH bigger than a DSC
- He only costs six to play, and makes the cut with Dragon Breath
- He tramples
- The only deck you would need to worry about getting him into play with would be against burn based decks. If an aggro based deck already has you low enough in life, given the mass amount of creature kill the deck already posesses, than even DSC wouldn't matter any much more than this guy would. Against Goblins, however, you would be hurt a little bit more. Thus the inclusion of more mass removal and Funeral Charms to the board.
- He looks like a bad guy from Raiders of the Lost Ark
- If he is StP'ed, then you gain your life back you lost so it doesn't matter.
- He's better than most against control.

Cons
- Aggro already is a bad matchup for this deck, so it doesn't make it that much better.
- Burn could hurt the deck if this guy showed up....

I can see Minion of the Wastes in the sideboard...brought in against control-based decks or other combo decks.

Obviously, with the inclusion of this guy, the deck would become more suceptible to Wrath of God now, but you have plenty of discard to take care of that problem. Irregardless, Wrath isn't seeing that much play in the Syracuse meta anymore and even when it does, you can still keep one DSC in the deck.

Additionally, all it takes is one or two fetchlands from an opponent and MotW could potentially win you the game immediately. Think of this idea as an uncounterable built-in Hatred on the creature with the possibility of haste. Even Dragon Shadow might now be a better choice to include.

Also, Cranial Extraction will see play in the maindeck...no questions asked. It is far too good a card to ignore anymore. It eliminates major threats posed to you by simply saying the name of the card.

The deck will lose Funeral Charms...because in Syracuse they are a sideboard option only. I can see Infest making a statement in the maindeck, perhaps 2. It also can kill your Gamekeeper and every Goblin an opponent has in play
for three mana.

Hymn to Tourach will also cease to exist anymore, because while it is a great card, it ultimately leaves you scratching your head looking for answers once you cripple an opponent. It acts in a counter-productive sort of way...leaving you also in top-deck mode.

The deck will now see 3-4 Bayou...because they are that good.

Another major area of concern is card drawing/card advantage. Night's Whisper will stay, but I am seeing a decrease to possibly 2 or 3 because all it does is replace one card and give you another...which is good and all...but I want to find something more productive. Skeletal Scrying is too slow, and while still a great card, in this format unless you're playing more solid control, the card is too slow. So now we come to a crossroads...

What cards to play? Well, we theoretically could splash blue...but has anyone thought of how broken Lim Dul's Vault is? I mean, you stack your deck ensuring a Gamekeeper, then do what you need to in any order you pick. I like the idea on paper...so we'll see what happens in real life.

So many unanswered questions. Big Arse was the Big Wake-Up call for this deck.

ISOCHRONIC_SCEPTER

07-26-2005, 11:02 AM

I really like the build of this deck. It appears to be quite solid and consistent. Well done. Just a quick question...What was your final record at Big Arse II? And which build of Game.dec did you use? Was it the current build on the first page of the thread?? Thanks.

Hoojo

07-26-2005, 11:39 AM

I've been testing Plated Slagwurm as an option versus swordstoplowshares.dec, with Dragon Fangs over Dragon Breath. It gets the job done. To combat Diabolic Edict, I have been running Mishra's Factories, since you can tap them for mana and turn them into a creature in one go. I have not tested Cranial Extraction, but I'm sure its as good as your saying. In addition to the Decree of Pains, I have been testing Echoing Decay with favorable results.

As for draw, I am at a loss. I've been running 4 Night's Whispers and 4 Worldly Tutors to garauntee I get the creatures I need. Other options I've tested and dropped have been Skeletal Scrying and Sylvan Library. There just isn't anything else. If we had a good black tutor, I would use those over Worldly, but there is no way I'm slotting Spoils of the Vault; that card bites.

I want to avoid adding blue for manabase issues. If I add blue, I will remove Black.

Brushwagg

07-26-2005, 01:21 PM

What cards to play? Well, we theoretically could splash blue...but has anyone thought of how broken Lim Dul's Vault is? I mean, you stack your deck ensuring a Gamekeeper, then do what you need to in any order you pick. I like the idea on paper...so we'll see what happens in real life.

I'm already splashing Blue.

Not to worry, Lim-Dul's is next on the Teting list. Not totally sure as what I'm going to cut to try out the LDV. It's probably going to be Night's Whispers.
As I said before Brainstorm is just awesome in the deck. Being able to put back DSC/DB and flush them if needed.
@Cutting Hymn:I really don't think that is such a good idea. Maybe cutting 2, at the most, but not all together. 2 RANDOM DISCARDS is awesome. It can get land, something Duress and Therapy can't do, and on turn 1-3 can really hurt any deck.

DampingEngine

08-04-2005, 09:05 PM

Hey Hollywood... I searched the forums to make sure this hadn't been mentioned yet, but I think it could be amazing in the Game. Drop of Honey:

Drop of Honey
Enchantment
Cost: G

At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy target creature, with the least power. It can't be regenerated. (If two or more creatures, are tied for least power, target any one of them.) ; When there are no creatures in play, sacrifice ~this~.

It's an outlet to sac Gamekeepers, it's an Abyss for your opponent, and it stays out forever once there's a Colossus on the table. It's a pricey card, but this could be the ideal deck to use it in. What do you think?

Brushwagg

08-05-2005, 12:44 AM

Is that the current text of the Drop? Because if it is it might fit. Although I would proxy it before I went and got one ($$$$$).

I have yet to do testing on Lim-Dul's Vault, but I'm going to get to it before Amrod's. I think it's going to work, but you never know.

Anonymous

08-05-2005, 11:00 AM

Yup, thats the oracle text of Drop according to Gatherer.

Bryant Cook

08-05-2005, 12:16 PM

Brushwagg

08-05-2005, 01:03 PM

If your going to run the Minion of the Wastes why not run the guy in Nat's sideboard the 4/4 first striker that gains life? That could make a ginormous dude 36/36 anyone? But since it's Hollywood he'll be cool and give it pro white like a pimp.
Ancestor's Chosen. 36/36 yummm...... Not only can you do that but aganist Burn, it's a hammer shot right in the junk.

I've also been looking at Sword of Light and Shadow. I might test it. Not sure, but with the Terapies you should be naming STP, if your playing White, and not have to worry who ever playing top decking it. Although I can seeing it sucking also, kinda like Lightning Greaves did in this deck.

MarkPharaoh

08-15-2005, 12:59 PM

Did anyone seen Stokinger giving praise about this deck at Nats? Anyone know what his decklist composed of?

Brushwagg

08-18-2005, 12:59 AM

Did anyone seen Stokinger giving praise about this deck at Nats? Anyone know what his decklist composed of?
I saw that too. I'm going assume that it's the list from the first page. SCG has a thread going but from what I've seen that list is totally be hacked to bits. Although I don't think it made top 8 :( .

Boogy_Boy

08-19-2005, 12:46 AM

Zilla

08-19-2005, 12:58 AM

Ridiculously off-topic argument removed. Let's keep it that way. - Zilla

Brushwagg

08-21-2005, 11:35 PM

Hey, anyone wanna try Read the Runes???

-It kills Keeper
-It discards your unwanted cards.
-It turns land into more cards (as this deck do not require much mana).
-It's an instant...

Sounds nice to me...
Read the Runes seems kind of meh... There is more then enough stuff to kill the Gamekeeper. Diabolic Edict, Decree of Pain, Cabal Therapt, and Deed. Also all above provide some sort of control. Read just basically cycles cards. I tried out Skeletal Scrying and really didn't like it because of the mana cost. It might not look like it but you need more land then you think.

Currently I'm running a different list to the one posted on the first page. I've splashed blue. I haven't posted yet, I really don't want to spam the thread. But if the mods will allow me, and/or enough people are interested in seeing it I will post it.

lynxcat

08-21-2005, 11:41 PM

I would love to see a list splashing blue. It seems like Brainstorm alone would be a huge boon for the deck. I've put The Game aside for the last couple months, since I've gotten crushed every time I've tried it out. I really think the deck needs an overhaul and adding better draw/search is probably part of that.

Brushwagg

08-23-2005, 01:15 AM

Well I'm going to post this list. Considering Hollywood is no where to be found :angry: and if he has been around I haven't seen him.

The Game ver ???

Mana
4x Dark Ritual

Discard
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
2x Hymn to Tourach

Draw/Dig
4x Brainstorm
3x Night's Whisper
2x Lim-Dul's Vault

Board Control
2x Naturalize
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Decree of Pain
3x Diabolic Edict

Combo
4x Gamekeeper
2x DSC
1x Dragon Breath

Land
4x Polluted Delta
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Treetop Village
1x Bayou
1x Undergrond Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
5x Swamp
2x Forest

SB
1x Ancestor's Chosen
3x Tsunami
3x Cranial Extractions
8x ???

Well there it is. This is pretty much the list I ran at Big ArseII, minus the Lim-Dul's Vault.

A few notes.

Brainstorm is really really good in this deck. It allows any DSC, or Dragon Breath(DB) that you draw to reenter the deck,and get flushed, with out aiming a Therapy at yourself.

As far as Lim-Dul's Vault goes. Right now I'm still testing it, but I like it so far. You setup your next 5 draws, or you can control how much or what your Gamekeeper mills. This card can make it so you do find a DSC instead of another Gamekeeper.

Ancestor's Chosen: This is a hammer shot to the junk for burn. Plain and simple. Gaining like 30+ life off a dead Gamekeeper rocks.

Sundering Titan: I ran him in the board at Big Arse and wish I didn't. It seemed great until it nuked my lands, which cost me the match :(. Bad idea to run, plain an simple.

Proteus Staff: I'm very much considering this for a SB slot. Most of the time you will find alot of decks side out their Disenchants/Naturalize effects for either graveyard hate or more removal. This gets around both and fits the blue splash. Problem is it's sorcery speed and you need a creature. But Treetop Village and Gamekeeper could both turn into a DSC.

Minion of the Wastes: If I could locate some I would try it. Although I'm not totally sold on the idea. Sure your opponent isn't going to want to STP it, but Edicts, or bounce hurt even more. You would probably have cram alot or at least a little life gain to make it effective.

Well that's all I got for now.

Rag Man

08-23-2005, 10:44 PM

Hey to everyone:

Wow! It's cool to read about all the threads everywhere going on with the deck list and cool ideas surrounding the whole idea. From Create-A-Deck to all this...it's hard to imagine it would have come this far. I have been really busy at work and with other things, so Magic is not my priority right now. But it is good to see everyone is still working on the deck and trying to further it in the tournament scene.

By the way, just to let everyone know, I am flattered SCG mentioned this deck over there, but I don't like their deck list. Stick to Brushwagg's....he knows what he's doing with it.

~HWooD~ :angry:

GRAH

08-23-2005, 10:56 PM

I really don't like the blue splash. Weakening a mana base that needs to be stable seems like a bad idea, and maybe it's just you guys, but I've rarely had a problem with getting Gamekeeper out.

BTW, here's the SB I'd been using:

1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Chain of Mephistopheles
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Naturalize
2 Roar of the Wurm
2 Persecute
3 Tsunami

lynxcat

08-23-2005, 11:40 PM

Grah:
What do you run for draw/search? I ran 4 Whispers and still had major consistency issues. Should we go back to using Worldly Tutor or Living Wish?

Brushwagg

08-23-2005, 11:44 PM

I really don't like the blue splash. Weakening a mana base that needs to be stable seems like a bad idea, and maybe it's just you guys, but I've rarely had a problem with getting Gamekeeper out.

Can't please everybody :p The mana base isn't really all that unstable. It looks it, but Polluted Delta can get you any color mana you need. The only land it can't get is the Forests. Besides you can easily play around Wastelands. The Brainstorm isn't just for finding Gamekeeper. It also helps out with getting more discard, boardcontrol, and filters unwanted/needed cards from your hand.

I like it, but I guess it comes down to personal choice.

I am flattered SCG mentioned this deck over there, but I don't like their deck list.

Quoted for truth. But they do have one good suggestion in Drop of Honey. However I don't suggest going out and paying through the nose for them.

GRAH

08-24-2005, 12:02 AM

Grah:
What do you run for draw/search? I ran 4 Whispers and still had major consistency issues. Should we go back to using Worldly Tutor or Living Wish?
I only played 4 Night's Whisper and a Diabolic Tutor. I also happen to have incredible luck, but more often than not, if I didn't draw an early Game, the pure disruption allowed me the time to get it, and I've even won a couple games on Treetop Village beats alone. Worldly Tutor seems sub-par, as does Living Wish.

Treetop Village is a great card in this deck. Mid-level beats as a land is nothing to scoff at in a deck that's constantly destroying creatures. It ends up being a clock.

This is the version I propose:

1 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
4 Treetop Village
2 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Ritual

4 Gamekeeper
2 DSC
1 Dragon Breath

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Funeral Charm

1 Diabolic Tutor (this is going to become Grim Tutor, obv)
4 Night's Whisper

1 Cranial Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hideous Laughter
1 Naturalize
1 Regrowth
3 Pernicious Deed

I totally want to play Kaervek's Spite out of spite.

Brushwagg

08-25-2005, 01:27 PM

Looks pretty good Grah. But I have a question. How do you deal with DSC in hand? I know you can Therapy/Funeral Charm yourself, but I almost always want them pointed at my opponent.

GRAH

08-28-2005, 08:46 PM

Looks pretty good Grah. But I have a question. How do you deal with DSC in hand? I know you can Therapy/Funeral Charm yourself, but I almost always want them pointed at my opponent.
It's really never a big deal. Cabal Therapy isn't the first discard spell you should be playing unless it's hitting yourself anyway. And I have 14 discard spells anyway. It's okay to waste one on getting rid of Darkie C.

Anusien

08-28-2005, 09:38 PM

Dragon Breath actually doesn't work:

Gamekeeper: {3G} |Creature -- Elf| 2/2. When Gamekeeper is put into a graveyard from play, you may remove Gamekeeper from the game. If you do, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card. Put that card into play and put the other cards revealed this way into your graveyard. UD-U [Legal in Vin, Leg, Ext.] (Oracle Version Date: July 25, 2005. See http://gatherer.wizards.com/)

Gamekeeper's ability puts the Colossus into play, and then it puts the other cards into the graveyard, so Dragon Breath isn't in the graveyard when Colossus is put into play. The key is the "Put that card...and put the other cards...".

Other than that, I personally found it aggravating to chain Gamekeepers. Yes, you can mill into another Cabal Therapy, but unless you mill into one right there, that delays the kill by another turn. I built a more combo-ish version if anyone's interested; you have 1 Gamekeeper main and 4 Tutor/Wish to dig it out.

By the way, is anyone else having problems occasionally getting Colossus as the last couple of cards in the library and decking out before you get the kill?

GRAH

08-28-2005, 10:20 PM

Thanks a lot, Anusien. You fucking broke the page. Way to go. Would you like a fucking cookie?

However, it does work, because Dragon Breath can't check until Gamekeeper fully resolves anyway. Which doesn't matter anyway because Colossus is put into play at the same time as Dragon Breath is put into the grave.

Here's what happens:

1. Gamekeeper's ability is resolving. Colossus is put into play, Breath into the grave.
2. Check for triggered abilities. Breath sees that it's in the graveyard and that Colossus has just come into play.
3. Breath goes on that bitch.

Brushwagg

08-28-2005, 11:50 PM

MattH

08-29-2005, 03:57 AM

Bryant Cook

08-29-2005, 01:07 PM

I recently got very bored and decided to make a deck on MWS so I made the game. The list I'm about to post I think could do very well in the current state of the format, well here's the list.
// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
7 [6E] Swamp (1)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [TO] Cabal Coffers
2 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [UD] Gamekeeper
2 [DS] Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [9E] Naturalize
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [SC] Decree of Pain
4 [FD] Night's Whisper
3 [OD] Skeletal Scrying
1 [SC] Dragon Breath
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [7E] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [B] Dark Ritual

EDit: I didn't have time to explain a few things earlyier so I will now.
Cabal coffers- OMFG blah blah this card is amazing in here like it or not allows the hardcast of decree and DSC. Also makes the addition of scrying buzted.
Skeletal scrying- my favorite magic card next to exalted angel. Why not draw a fuckton of cards at instant speed? as I said coffers makes this card retarded.

08-29-2005, 02:05 PM

Anusien

08-29-2005, 06:24 PM

Dragon Breath actually doesn't work:

Ya that got cleared up like 2 months ago.

@Anusien 1. Thanks for breaking the page :p That's Grah's job.
2. Why would you run only 1 Gamekeeper ??? Since it's kinda the key to the deck. What happens if it's countered? Unles your runn Proteus Staff and activate the Treetop.
If it gets countered, I assume he Wishes up another.
By the way, I'm not necessarily sure you're right on the ruling. Who did you ask? #MTGJudge is sort of split on the decision, it seems to come down to the definition of a clause in magic.

At any rate, the idea is not to have it countered. You can slow roll the Gamekeeper because you have 10 maindeck counterspells, and you do have the option to wish out another. You also get Phyrexian Tower from the board, and Treetop Village. The point though, is from my side of it, to play the deck like a combo deck. Especially if Dragon Breath works the way you say it does, you give them one untap to use bounce/Swords, which hopefully you can duress away.

Hoojo

08-29-2005, 06:30 PM

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/satschoolarchive&term=oath_of_druids (Here is the link.)

The text is exactly the same as Oath of Druids. I am going to assume that until they change this, it works.

GRAH

08-30-2005, 01:53 AM

Um..there are a grand total of 11 swamps in the deck. Not sure how you conclude Coffers being all that great. I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to see it in the early-midgame, as it could easily screw you out of mana when it needs it.

Not to mention the whole 4x Bayou thing. The reason you typically only play 1-2 is to avoid Wasteland. Coffers hurts that even more. Having a disruptable mana base is bad for this deck.

I'm not sold on Living Wish either. Playing only one Game MD seems like a poor idea. 3 MD Game and 3 Wish seems alright, but I'm still not really sold. The Wish takes up control space.

Of course, I rarely have problems finding it.

Brushwagg

08-31-2005, 11:03 PM

Has anyone seen Putrefy yet? I serious can see The Game running this in the Diabolic Edict slot, and moving Edict maybe to the board. Or a better bet, it could replace the Naturalizes and serve double duty as creature kill. At any rate I do see this making it in MD, it's just which of the two it would replace.

Hoojo

09-01-2005, 12:57 AM

Mostly depends on how many Trolls/untouchables running around in your area. If anything, I would replace Naturalizes and keep Diabolic Edicts, since there are always creature decks around.

FluffyPinkBunnies

09-01-2005, 03:12 AM

I would have to agree. This new putrefy card wont take care of trolls and the like maybe running 2 edicts and 2 putrefy would be the way to go?

Brushwagg

09-01-2005, 01:09 PM

Mostly depends on how many Trolls/untouchables running around in your area. If anything, I would replace Naturalizes and keep Diabolic Edicts, since there are always creature decks around.

Ya I guess it would depend on that. While I love Diabolic Edict, sometimes I don't like the randomness. It does kill the creature, but if your opponent has 2 or more on the table, you get the worst one.

ChemEng

09-05-2005, 02:04 PM

GRAH

09-05-2005, 07:55 PM

Huh. I actually never noticed that. I don't see Solidarity much, so I rarely played that matchup.

Brushwagg

09-05-2005, 10:45 PM

Looks pretty good Grah. But I have a question. How do you deal with DSC in hand? I know you can Therapy/Funeral Charm yourself, but I almost always want them pointed at my opponent.
Im not Grah, but have been testing his build... One part that he missed is that in matchups where you bring in Chains, the DCs serve as prime targets of first discard when you Whisper... :)
I was talking outside of Chains.

So I'm more then likely going to run this at Amrods this weekend. Anyone got some good ideas for SB choices. So far I got:

1x ANcestor's Chosen
3x Tsunami
3x Crainial Extraction <--If I can borrow/trade for them.
8x ???

And no I'm not going to run Sundering Titan. Bad memories.

GRAH

09-05-2005, 11:58 PM

That's the most effective SB that I can think of.

1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Avoid Fate
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Roar of the Wurm
2 Persecute
2 Tsunami

adrien

09-13-2005, 08:28 AM

Brushwagg

09-13-2005, 09:22 AM

maybe it s a crap idea but when i saw a deck with defense of the heurt i thought that the game could play it it s like gamekeeper a 4cc card which put two creatures in play u only have to play forbidden orchard isn t there a place to put it in the game????
I would have to say NO. There is alot of creture kill in The Game. Also while Gamekeeper is kinda meh, DotH is really bad here. The only thing that this deck has to worry about is to kill the Gamekeeper, which isn't really that hard. Also Gamekeper usally keeps creatures at home. DotH on the other hand you need 2 creatures in play on the opponent's side to use it.

Brushwagg

09-16-2005, 12:33 AM

Ok so I double posted, I'm sorry. But I was looking through the Ravinca Spoiler and found this card.

Perplex - 1UB
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller discards his or her hand.
Transmute 1UB (1UB, Discard this card: Search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as this card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Play only as a sorcery.)

I think this can find a home, at least if your running blue, here. Sure it's not a hard counter, but it can put your opponent in hard spot. Do they really want that STP or Edict, etc.. to go through. Let me know what you think. Thumbs up or thumbs down.

colsmack

09-18-2005, 01:28 PM

GRAH

09-18-2005, 01:54 PM

This deck has a good matchup against other combo decks, as well, because of the heavy discard.

Brushwagg

09-19-2005, 08:18 AM

I'm not trying to undermine the deck or anything, bt what does it actually beat consistently? Goblins seems like it could be pretty good with deeds, but anything with StP wrecks you. Without a deed, this deck is kind of a sitting duck. Even once collosus hits, fast aggro can often still rush you. Could I get some insight on this?
Aggro has a tough time with the deck. There is Decree of Pain, Diabolic Edict, Deed, and Gamekeeper (not alot of people attack once he hits). Now don't get me wrong Goblins can be tough if they get a real fast start, but a cycled Decree pretty much clears the board. As far as STP there's so much discard that it can become a non-issue (unless it get they top deck it). Just make them get rid of it before you put a target down. Game 2 and 3 become easier with Extractions.

etakspeelstae

09-19-2005, 03:24 PM

Brushwagg

09-19-2005, 04:54 PM

...but anything with StP wrecks you...

Not true. Once the Gamekeeper hits with a Therapy in the 'yard, your opponent won't have priority to StP until you pass it. So when you sacrifice to a Flashbacked Therapy, correct me if im wrong, but your opponent won't recieve priority until the Therapy is on the Stack (I don't know when the Gamekeepers ability will go on the stack/resolve) and the 'Keeper is in your graveyard. So as far as I can tell this deck doesn't have a *huge* problem with it.
It goes like this. You sac Gamekeeper to Therapy. Gamekeeper resolves then the Thearpy. So you don't name anything until the Gamekeeper finishes. However your opponent has a chance to respond to the Therapy resolving :( But if you know how to play around STP, it is not a problem at all.

Rag Man

11-09-2005, 01:17 AM

Wow, I just got back on the site and it seems like alot of people are still taking an interest to my deck. I really think that's totally cool. Good to keep tabs on how you're all doing with the Game. I saw some of the new cards from the newest set...some of them look really interesting. And I also noticed that the Dragon's Breath doesn't work with Gamekeeper (along with the other instant enchantments) anymore. Combine those two factors, and what suitable options do we have to a few open (yet still tight) slots?

ElvenTitz

11-09-2005, 03:23 AM

Is it still possible after they ruined Gamekeeper+Colossus+Mask combo ? I think this deck is no better than others after that.

Anusien

11-09-2005, 10:30 AM

From #mtgjudge

[O]fficial: Dragon Breath works with Oath of Druids, but not with Gamekeeper

The reason:

When Gamekeeper is put into a graveyard from play, you may remove Gamekeeper from the game. If you do, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card. Put that card into play and put the other cards revealed this way into your graveyard.

At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than any of his or her opponents, the player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

What's going on here is because Gamekeeper uses the word "put" twice, Dragon Breath has not been put into that graveyard until the Darksteel Colossus is already in play. (This is a brand new ruling, by the way).

Does anyone feel this substantially affects the deck? I mean, it's very possible to go off turn 1-2 if you are worried about the goldfish, and you can do it without losing any hand disruption.

Watcher487

11-09-2005, 12:26 PM

Anusien

11-09-2005, 01:16 PM

That plan seems kind of kludgy - you're counting on milling a 4 of and a 1 of into your graveyard and then hitting the proper card you need. So in other words, Gamekeeper has to mill a Therapy and a Dragon Breath and then not hit Colossus, but hit a Gamekeeper, which then mills into Colossus. That seems risky. I'd rather just win before it became an issue.

But no, I had previously reported that it didn't work, and was yelled at that it does, all the while they were trying to get an [O]fficial ruling because #mtgjudge was split.

wrshp666

11-10-2005, 10:53 AM

doesnt darksteel colossus just get shuffled into your deck when flipped from game keeper? i actually saw this thread rite when it started and thought about proxying it out...its intriguing me...

Duby

11-10-2005, 11:32 AM

Actually i believe that the game keepers ability reveals cards from your deck until you find a critter, namely big o and then puts it into play. It doens't go to your grave yard so it doesn't get shuffled back into your deck. If thats wrong than i'm sure someone will correct me.
I'm also intrested in this deck type just because its in my budget and might work well in my meta which is lots of random aggro with no goblins mind you and stuff like sneak attack and zoo. Either way i hope i answered your question.
-Duby

SillyMetalGAT

11-10-2005, 12:22 PM

this deck definatly looks fun and competetive, but why wouldnt you play intuition? intuition grabs the remaining keepers, ensuring you to get colossus. sounds sweet to me. just a suggestion.

Brushwagg

11-10-2005, 09:20 PM

Well with the ruling it may have to start. But not for Gamekeeper, but to get the Dragon Breath. I think what Watcher meant was to up the Dragon Breath count. But I really don't think you have to. Yes it is nice to have DSC with haste.

I do think the deck needs some changes though. Brainstorm is very nice in the deck, but I've also been considering Perplex. It fits into the colors I run, and it counters a spell or Mind Twists you opponent.

Watcher487

11-11-2005, 10:47 AM

Brushwagg

11-11-2005, 09:06 PM

Well the strange thing is, I don't really play the B/G/U version of Brushwagg. I've been testing out B/G/W for the past month hoping to speed up the deck just a little. Adding Living Wish, upping the discard to 16 spells and the combo is tough. It's more than a blast to play, and Hollywood will make my shout out list if I make second day.
So your playing in Philly ??? If so I give you props.

The reson I'm playing Blue is really for 2 cards, Brainstorm and Lim-Dul's Vault. Brainstorm allows you to put back DSC or Dragon Breath if you draw them. While Lim-Dul's Vault allows to basically stack what you want to Gamekeeper into.

@Watcher:Are you using Salvager or just using white to help out the board control IE: STP and Wrath of God? I'm interested in seeing your list.

SenilePack

11-14-2005, 09:05 AM

After looking through the 16 pages of discussion on what I think is an amazing deck, I believe that ostricize should take at least 2 spots in the Deck. Maybe it would take over for the charm? Well anyway, with the very strong prescence of gobbos and zoo, I think it would make a good addition. Also, how many discard spells are people running on average? I'm running 15.

Watcher487

11-14-2005, 12:23 PM

So your playing in Philly ??? If so I give you props.

@Watcher:Are you using Salvager or just using white to help out the board control IE: STP and Wrath of God? I'm interested in seeing your list.
Let's just say that it just sucked to be me.

1-2 after the first 3 rounds (I just should have dropped right there)

I was just playing Salvager combo, but I really should have just reworked the whole deck to support blue and white in the deck.

Working with 6-7 Fetchlands Brainstrom and Lim's Vault would be amazing with Salvagers. Hmmm. Now, this is a snazzy idea. DAMN IT!!!!! DAMN YOU HOLLYWOOD!!!!!

SenilePack

11-14-2005, 06:51 PM

after testing the deck about 20 more times, I think you should do this:
-1 Dragon's Breath
-2 Funeral Charm
-3 Diabolic Edict
-1 Regrowth
-2 Decree of Pain

that's 9 slots to change things around

+1 Gaea's blessing(It seems to fit really well in the deck(though, please comment))
+2 Ostracize
+3 Echoing Decay
+3 Unmask

The card that I'm most unsure of replacing is trading out the breath for the blessing. However, Blessing=a basic guaranteed win vs. solidarity on the off-chance that they do go off. Echoing Decay just seems to do better in the deck considering it can hit multiple creatures (including the random infinite token deck) and it has actual targeting ability. The addition of ostracize and unmask gives you a total of 17 discard spells. At this point you should be able to take care of any danger they can throw your way.

:cool:

Brushwagg

11-14-2005, 08:08 PM

+1 Gaea's blessing(It seems to fit really well in the deck(though, please comment))

Bad very bad. You don't really want to shuffle things back into the deck. Flashback Cabal Therapy is the number 1 way to kill Gamekeeper.

-1 Dragon's Breath
If you are playing the DSC route you really do want this in the deck, even with the ruling. Haste is always good.

+2 Ostracize

I think it's too limited cretures only. 4x Duress, 4x Therapy, and 2x Hymn I think is enough. However if your meta is creture heavy it might be alright for you. But I rather have duress 99.9% of the time.

-3 Diabolic Edict
-2 Decree of Pain

Why would you remove the creature control ??? Just wondering on this one. Diabolic Edicts/Decree also kills your Gamekeeper.

Oh and 1x Blessing isn't a atuo win vs. Solidarity, just a FYI. They can just wish for Stroke. Your best bet aganist Solidarity is to bring in more discard. That is the real nightmare for it.

SenilePack

11-14-2005, 08:34 PM

Watcher487

11-14-2005, 08:55 PM

I'm not taking out greature removal out, remember that I'm replacing the edicts with echoing decay. The ostracise I think are definately good enough for a 2 of considering the two of. The only problem with not including blessing is the danger of decking yourself.
The trick to the deck is that you drop a DSC. You have 2 in the deck to prevent you from decking yourself. This along with the fact that DSC Tramples anyway means it doesn't matter if you have 10- cards left in your deck.

If your this worried to play with the deck then add 1 or 2 Krosan Reclaimation to the deck.

Now the Decays are ok by my opinion, but taking out a board sweeper is just nuts. Decay just hits the same name not type, while Decree is to be cycled.

SenilePack

11-15-2005, 02:57 AM

Brushwagg

11-16-2005, 08:01 PM

I did switch the blessing out for breath, and I put decrees back in, but I'm still replacing the edicts with decays. The other change that I'm keeping is Unmask. Unmask is invaluable, especially in a mostly unpredictable meta, and it gets you a first turn insight into what they're playing. So, turn 1: Unmask removing a random black card, and then hit them with therapy.
Umm... isn't that basically the same as 1st turn Duress, without 2 for 1ing yourself? I've played this deck alot and the discard pakage is more then enough. Unmask has been tested and found to be not that good.

Nehptis

12-01-2005, 12:02 AM

I've been following this deck for some time now but have been playing IGG up until now. Excellent work by the way. As I begin testing this deck I was wondering if Sylvan Library has been considered. I am beginning to test it in place of the 3 x Night's Whisper spot. Keep in mind that I am playing the B/G version.

Both Sylvan and Whisper fit the 2 drop spot. Both are draw effects. However Whisper will net you 2 cards for 2 life while Library will net you 2 cards for 8 life. What I most like about Sylvan over Whisper is its synergy with the fetchlands (I run 6). Whisper is a blind draw while Sylvan allows some stacking and shuffle tricks.

Citrus-God

12-01-2005, 01:13 AM

I find that a lack of Card Advantage is a bad thing against lots of my control match ups.

Night's Whisper actually saved me against Gro... Now don't go Discard is my solution; They get good topdecks, and I get bad topdecks, and shuffling is a little rare in this deck.

Nehptis

12-01-2005, 01:35 AM

Rag Man

12-01-2005, 10:38 PM

Card advantage is important against control. However, I don't invision counters being a large issue due to the 10 discard cards that I run. I'd much prefer digging 3 cards deep with the library and effectively improving the quality of my draws instead of upping my hand count. SD Top is also an option but I like the Library more at this time.
Hey everyone, I was reading up on the posts and I thought I would comment on several things:

I noticed that ever since I built the deck way back when, not too much has changed from the fundamentals the deck was based upon, to combo out with Gamekeeper. There are so many various routes you can take with the deck. But, as the old saying goes in Magic, you must "round the edges" so to speak, according to what other people are playing.

One of the biggest inconsistencies with the deck is defining the way it loses. This is one of those decks that plays a solid mix of combo and control, while establishing advantage with sweepers, discard, and such. I have always been a proponent of Sylvan Library, because of how it manipulates your draws and allows you to dig deeper if need be. However, some people might like Top better. I, for one, don't. Remember, you need to spend that extra mana recasting it if emergencies ensue. Late game, it is a great card to have in play. Unfortunately, you're talking about a deck which shouldn't surpass turn 8. It will either lose or win or draw by then (unless of course you're hanging on by a thread to stay alive with removal. I hear turn 23 Duress is solid...). This drops the deck into a sort of parallel with decks like MBC or PT Junk, in which they generally play aggressive by annihiliating an opponent's hand and board early to establish a crippling advantage.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that this particular deck can go in one of two directions: Fast and furious or slow and methodical. The deck's consistency can never really be solved, because the percentage swing of how fast the deck combos out to me would appear to be just about even when compared to how slow it combos out. A strong draw with this deck makes it really hard to beat, but a weak draw and you basically just start playing like MBC - top deck mode. Just know, even with the scattered draw spells, know when to mulligan. It is really worth taking the risk. Don't be afraid to do it.

This deck should own control-based decks, as at least I have had alot of success in that particular matchup in days' past. But against other pseudo-aggro based decks, i.e. Madness, etc. ,and they can pose a problem. The idea is to draw/ mulligan into a strong start. This is one of those decks where you're always happy seeing one particular card in the opening hand against against an opponent, because alot of other invariables the deck posseses are game-altering solutions for you...

So just keep those things in mind when continuing to build. Good luck!

~HwooD :angry:

Nehptis

12-02-2005, 03:57 PM

HWood, as the creator of the deck I am not surprised that you are dead on with your analysis. And nice work on putting it together, BTW.

I've been playing combo exclusively in T1, 1.5 and Ext for years now. So, I am well versed at the challenges that it poses. My initial approach will be to pilot this deck as "Aggressive" combo. Aggressive mulligans and aggressive use of Sylvan Lib as I attempt to combo out by turn 3 to 5.

Based on this aggressive approach this is the deck I am testing. I will most likely play it in a local 10-20 person tourney later this month.

The Game
60
20 - Aggressive combo should not play more than 2 colors.
6 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Treetop Village - These serve as decent beats if the game does go long. Worst case they are a forest. The CIP tapping does go against the aggressiveness. But, in a control / aggro-control heavy meta I choose to run these.
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bayou
1 Badlands - In case the Dragon Breath is in hand.
22
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Decree of Pain - An unbelievable recommendation that keeps the extra Rituals useful.
2 Funeral Charm
10
4 Living Wish - I want to combo out ASAP so I run the full compliment of Keepers+Wishes that allows me to do so. Also, LW is a great utuility card for SB tech. This is why I run it over more draw like Night's Whisper.
3 Gamekeeper
3 Sylvan Library - IMO, the best draw engine that this deck can play.
1
1 Dragon Breath
6
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy - A great new tool. Naturalize is in the SB as is Zealot which can be Wished for.
1
1 Darksteel Colossus - Only running 1 since I want to be aggressive as possible. True play will dictate if I need a second.

SB kind of speaks for itself. Answers to goblins, control, artifacts, Enchantments and a utility land.

SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Tsunami
SB: 1 Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 Gamekeeper
SB: 1 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 1 City of Brass

Brushwagg

12-02-2005, 08:55 PM

I feel I need to respond to this:

Aggressive combo should not play more than 2 colors.

I really like playing this deck, but I never liked drawing the DSC and having no way of putting back into my library, without having to waste a Therapy. Brainstorm gives me a way of putting the DSC back and filter out the junk in hand I don't need. It's one of the best cards for this deck. Also Lim-Dul's Vault is soooo good in this deck. Setting up your next 5 draws, or making sure that a Gamekeeper is going to hit a DSC. So basically I included Blue in help smooth the out the deck.

Right now I'm still messing around with how to fix the new ruling a Gamekeeper. Because you really want the Dragon Breath to come from the yard onto the DSC. I've tried Intuition but it is garbage in this deck. I may up the Vault count to basically insure that I see a Gamekeeper and the Dragon Breath goes to the yard before DSC shows up.

Citrus-God

12-03-2005, 03:41 AM

Okay, I build a sad little deck. I built a faster Game to combat the aggro clock. *cough* Goblins *cough*

// Lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Mountain
5 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands

// Creatures 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Darksteel Colossus

// Spells 35
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
3 Living Wish
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroclasm
4 Night's Whisper
4 Terminate
1 Dragon Breath

// Sideboard 15
1 Living Wish
1 Pyroclasm
1 Obliterate
1 Innocent Blood
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Void
1 Pillage
1 Decree of Pain
1 Call of the Herd

1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gamekeeper
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Kjeldoran Dead
1 Bone Shredder
1 Withered Wretch

Pyroclasm and Burning Wish are here because? They snergize with the "I'm gonna kill my own Gamekeeper plan," as well as, "I need a solution."

I'm still testing this build. I'm still sorta unsatisfied with this deck until I can get it right...

Nehptis

12-03-2005, 11:26 PM

I still would prefer 2 colors. But, I do like where you are going with this. However, I think that Sylvan Lib > Night's Whisper. Especially when you have 8 shuffle effects.

I don't like Hymns at all since they are only good early AND only good early with a Dark Ritual. You should be holding your Ritual for an early Gamekeeper. IMO the Hymns are not that hot in this deck.

Other than that I like the idea of Red. I'm still going to test the B/G version as much as possible and only add the 3rd color if B/G fails.

Brushwagg

12-10-2005, 02:29 PM

I don't like Hymns at all since they are only good early AND only good early with a Dark Ritual. You should be holding your Ritual for an early Gamekeeper. IMO the Hymns are not that hot in this deck.

Yes and no here. Yes Hymn is good, don't under estimate the power of 2 Random discards. Coupled with Duress/Therapy you can totally mess your opponent's hand up. Many a times I've taken the best spell in there hand then Hymned for 2 lands. That's evil.

As far as no:Hymn can also leave you with limited options on turn 2-3. Using a Dark Ritual can be costly. That is why I still run them but as a 2 of. It's one of your better cards in the control match-up.

@Sylvan Library vs. Night's Whispers:I guess this is mostly what you like better. Sylvan is very powerful, but costly if you want to draw extra cards. Night's Whispers on the other hand draws you 2 for 2 life. Coupled Brainstorm and Lim-Dul's Vault (if you run them) then I think Whispers is the better choice.

martyr

12-11-2005, 07:58 PM

This is one deck that cannot afford to be savaged by Wasteland. If you play three colors for more than anything but a Dragon Breath, it will happen.

I've found Terminate to be way too expensive. You HAVE to have a turn 1 answer to pretty much every aggro deck, and that answer can't afford to be disrupted by Wasteland.

Night's Whisper I don't like, because you have to pay the life, and occasionally not being able to rearrange a DSC on top of your deck matters.

Here's the list I'm playing, and it's really solid. The manabase is nigh-perfect, and it has a really easy time getting the combo off early. The only card I wish I had maindeck that I don't is a a Krosan Reclamation or Gaea's Blessing, and I'm not sure what to take out for that (you only run the one Gamekeeper most of the time, so you hardly ever care about shuffling away Cabal Therapies).

4x Living Wish
3x Worldly Tutor
1x Gamekeeper
1x Darksteel Colossus
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
4x Innocent Blood
1x Funeral Charm
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Putrefy
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Decree of Pain
3x Sylvan Library
4x Dark Ritual
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Bayou
4x Forest
6x Swamp

SB: 4x Engineered Plague
SB: 2x Cranial Extraction
SB: 2x Naturalize
SB: 1x Ascendant Evincar
SB: 1x Irridescent Angel
SB: 1x Viridian Zealot
SB: 1-2x Gamekeeper
SB: 1x Swamp
SB: 1x Xantid Swarm
SB: 1x Forest

I only want one more open slot in the sb, for a High Market, especially if I add a Reclamation/Blessing to the maindeck. The Angel is a metagame call, so don't call jank on it (people around here play with shit like Pacifism and tappers and stuff, because the meta's janky and janky cards do better in it).

The Ascendant Evincar is awesome against Goblins, which is the only Tier 1 deck present in my meta. It catches them off-guard, as they haven't caught on to Lightning Bolt quite yet. It's not awfully necessary, as if you get a Plague down they really can't fight through the removal.

I want to run another Gamekeeper in the SB so I can play 2x Maindeck against Goblins and still have the DSC win (with Evincar), but it's not really necessary.

Brushwagg

12-11-2005, 10:19 PM

OK I'm going to say this again, Blessing is BAD IN THIS DECK!!! The last thing you want is to reset your yard. What happens when you hit blessing before DSC?? All the Therapies that where in the yard are shuffled. If you want to run any kind of recusion then run Regrowth. Regrowth is basically a Demonic Tutor for you.

@High Market:This was already tested months ago and found to be bad. The only thing it is good for is killing Gamekeeper. There is already so much stuff that kills it already in the deck it is totally not needed.

Nehptis

12-11-2005, 10:39 PM

I think he is worried about being decked. Not recursion. Also, with 1 Game MD Blessing is not an issue. Since you hit Blessing stack it then hit DSC and you have a full library with DSC in play.

High Market is in my SB as well. I don't see any downsides to having a sac target in the Wishboard.

The first post in this thread has my current build.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums....g391905 (http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25887.msg391905#msg391905)

Nehptis

12-12-2005, 02:19 PM

Success....sort of. Well, I managed to get the Dragon Breath ruling entered into the searchable Saturday school Database. Not that it helps us with the effect. But, at least it's easier for local Judges to find the ruling now.

http://www.wizards.com/default...._breath (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/satschoolarchive&term=dragon_breath)

noobslayer

12-17-2005, 02:03 PM

I agree with one maindecked Krosan Reclamation. Especially in teh Salvagers build, it gives you HUGE outs to a lot of problems by returning wishes to the deck. Though tere you go infi, go through your deck and win, here, it can be used to pull back a discarded keeper or other disruption. As far as teh aggro version to battle goblins, cut terminate. You are relying in drawing an off color to make it useful. However, I'd keep pyroclasm, as I think that card is T3h uber tech. If you find goblins to be running rampant in your meta, collossus comes out straight up for Akroma. She smashes the living shit out of them; she also happens to be greater than every non-Akroma creature too. Bruning wish can probably come out to diversify your sideboard, and make room for Sylvan Library.

martyr

12-19-2005, 12:47 AM

My updated decklist is:

4x Living Wish
2x Worldly Tutor
2x Gamekeeper
1x Darksteel Colossus
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
4x Innocent Blood
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Putrefy
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Decree of Pain
3x Sylvan Library
1x Krosan Reclamation
4x Dark Ritual
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Bayou
3x Forest
5x Swamp

SB: 4x Engineered Plague
SB: 3x Cranial Extraction
SB: 1x Naturalize
SB: 1x Irridescent Angel
SB: 1x Viridian Zealot
SB: 1x Gamekeeper
SB: 1x Bayou
SB: 1x Xantid Swarm
SB: 1x Ascendant Evincar
SB: 1x High Market

Having High Market in the board has occasionally helped out against Control, especially if you get out an early Gamekeeper and have to rely on creature removal to get rid of it. Otherwise they can counter your Innocent Bloods and just have too much time to build up resources for a Lethal Tog or whatnot.

I was thinking about Akroma, too. If Goblins decks in your metagame play Lightning Bolt, then play Akroma. If not, play Ascendant Evincar. It's really just quite dumb in combination with 4x Engineered Plagues in from the board. Even so, you could still make room for an Akroma, just to really stick it to them, as I usually Living Wish for Evincar after slowing down the board enough with a Plague.

The best creatures for this deck to fetch are:

Akroma
Irridescent Angel
Darksteel Colossus
Symbiotic Wurm (But this is dependent on you playing a mirror or everybody playing Diabolic Edicts)

The best Living Wish targets, I've found, are:

Ascendant Evincar
Xantid Swarm (AMAZING)
Gamekeeper
Viridian Zealot (quite good, but not as frequently gotten as I'd thought he would be)
Bayou
High Market (in lieu of having colored mana issues, get a High Market, as it has more utility than another random Bayou)

The Cranial Extractions were ridiculous, hence their numbers increasing. I might actually cut the last Naturalize for the 4th.

I'm still undecided on the number of Gamekeepers maindeck. I really like 2x against Control, but Worldly Tutor is fantastically resilient to opposing disruption.

damos

07-05-2006, 06:28 PM

First let me say this is my first post here. So please forgive me if I am posting this is the wrong spot. It is just that the other forums I visit the most manly focus on type 1, casual, extended and type 2. So I am kind of left with out much help when I come's to makeing good legacy deck and keeping up with what is good in the format and what is not. I am hopeing this site will change that for me.

Ok so I have seen the deck runing the Gamekeeper/Auriok Salvagers combo. And I kind of like the idea of the keeper but not really the idea of the salvager. So I was wanting to give this deck a try. I do not have really high hopes for it. I am really only looking for a casual one on one maybe tier 3 or 2 deck (sadly there are no legacy tournments around here I know of are any real legacy players). If it is some how abal to become a better deck then that so be it. Though I will admit I will be a little suprised. Well here is the deck.

Creatures
3x Gamekeeper
2x Darksteel Colossus

Spells
4x Living Wish
4x Worldly Tutor
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Innocent Blood
3x Infest/Massacre
3x Unmask
2x Krosan Reclamation
2x Dragon's Breath

Mana
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Bayou
2x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstaind Mire
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
1x Forest

As you can see the deck is a lot like the Gamekeeper/Auriok Salvagers combo decks. But I this is a version I feel that is a little bit more stable and consistat. You do not have to try and worry about going off with the combo with is deck. The idea is to just get a colossus out fast a beat in twice with it for the win. I will give you a quick card by card run down so you can know why I picked the cards I picked.

Gamekeeper-No explanation really needed the key card of the deck.

Darksteel Colossus-Again same as above

Living Wish-Can get the 4th keeper out of the SB. Can also let me SB answer cards too. Note: That as of now I really have no SB yet as I do not know what I want to run in it. Any ideas.

Worldly Tutor-Another way to make sure I can get a keeper as fast as I can. This deck want's a keeper out as soon as posibal and this card helps make's sure that happens.

Duress, Cabal Therapy & Unmask- I put this together becasue they all do the same thing. Help slow down and disrupt your oppoent. Also help's make sure you do not have to worry about any thing like swords ruining you day. And the therapy also doubles as a sack out let for the keeper too.

Innocent Blood- A sack out let for the keeper that can also help disrupt your oppoent too.

Infest/Massacre- Not really sure witch one is the best in the current meta. What do you all think. This is here because it can not only kill the keeper for you but also wipe out weenie decks. I take that goblins and angel stompy are still widely played deck's right.

Krosan Reclamation-Only reason this is here is to let you stop from decking yourself.

Dragon's Breath-Only reason this is here is to give the colossus haste and let you win a turn faster.

Well that covers all the spells in the deck. As for the mana. I think I will only explain a few of the cards as the rest are kind self explaining.

Dark Ritual-Mana acclaration. Really nothing else to say about it.

Lotus petal & chrome mox-This are here to help you get a keeper out as fast as you can. This are here for one reason only speed. I am not really sure about them yet. So maybe they will get changed. But right now I think the idea is a sound one.

Well ok there is the deck. What do you all think about it. Does it have a chance of becoming a decent playabal deck. Can you think of anything I may want to change. Also can you think of anything I may want to run in the SB besides the 4th keeper.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Rambo

07-05-2006, 06:33 PM

I dont like unmask at all, especially because it gives you card disadvantage, and also because you have a limited number of black cards. Pernicous deed is also necessary, for killing stuff like solitarity confinment/worship, and keeping you alive versus goblins and other fast aggro.

Nightmare

07-05-2006, 06:35 PM

Threads Merged.

damos

07-05-2006, 06:38 PM

Thanks you I did not see this thread. All I saw was the keeper/salvager combo thread and I knew this was a little differant then that.

Thanks for the helps.

@Rambo So you think I should replace the unmask with deed's then.

Rambo

07-05-2006, 07:07 PM

Yes, you already have enough protection in therapy and duresss.

damos

07-05-2006, 07:33 PM

Good point. I will probably end up using at leat 1x therapy to get to the colossus anyyways. So they will not have any swords in hand when colossus comes out any ways. And if they top deck in to one they will use it right away with out any chance to remove it.

Ok I will replace the unmask with deeds then. Thanks.

Bane of the Living

07-05-2006, 07:43 PM

damos

07-05-2006, 11:47 PM

I dont see why you'd want to play this deck over Salvagers. The Game is ridiculously outdated and obsolete. It needs to run jank like Dragon Breath and hope to play around swords while you beat in 22 damage, and oh yea, also not die in the process..

Salvagers has blazing fast wins, sometimes turn 2 on the play. More broken plays thanks to Lions Eye Diamond mana into Wishes. It also has the opps I win combo factor where your at 2 life, your opponents at 20 and you rip into your combo thanks to drawing silly Chromatic Sphere.

Seriously man, if your looking to get into Legacy, Salvagers is a great place to start. Build both decks on Magic Workstation and see how both of them work for you.

I know the salvager version is probably better. But I want this version. I have always been a big fan of Oath. And have a type 1 oath deck. But sadly oath is banned in legacy. So I though I was out of luck. Then I saw this combo and relized that I could still play oath in legacy too. I am not looking for a tier 1 deck to play with just a casual fun deck to play legacy with. When I want to go and play in a tournement (and as I said there are currently not legacy tourny's around here any ways). Then I will probably just play Dead guy Ale. But as for this deck I WANT a the deck to be the Keeper/collosus combo. Not the salvager combo.

Citrus-God

07-06-2006, 03:05 AM

umm... you realize that in T1, they did have a Salvagers Oath... well, that build was worse, but in T1.5 it's better, because it has Tutors to fetch up all the missing cards. The reasons to play Salvage Game is because it's the closest thing we have to a T1 Combo-Control deck. If you want an example, look at any T1 Gift Control builds. Now think about the Win Conditions and reasons why it merits it's place as a tier 1 deck.

Benie Bederios

07-06-2006, 07:12 AM

I thought that Dragon Breath didn't work in this deck due to the wording of Gamekeeper. Something about that it puts the card in play first and than the cards in the Grave. It worked with Oath but the wording was little different.

Why doesn't this deck play Akroma over DSC. Assuming your opponent lost 2 life on fetches the clock is the same speed. It blocks and attacks, has evasion. Indestructible isn't that needed. So why not play 1 Akroma and 1 Spirit of the Night.

O wait, if you draw one you can discard DSC to your library.

About Salvager Game
2x Ritual
1x Gamekeeper
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Swamp
1x LED
1x Chromatic Sphere

Turn 1 kill on the play.

noobslayer

07-06-2006, 11:25 AM

That's only only if you don't mill into another Gamkeeper without hitting a Therapy.

Zelyon

07-07-2006, 01:41 AM

So if you flip additional Gamekeepers, you keep saccing them, turn after turn until you get hold of a Darksteel Colassus.

And you are reliant on having a Cabal Therapy for each Gamekeeper you run into, or you are slowed down?

Or do I misunderstand the deck.

If you want a 4cc Tinker/Oath type effect, why not run Natural Order.

Natural Order -> Verdant Force or Plated Slagwurn along with a bunch of disruption (Chalice, Trinisphere, a black splash if you desire) is a deck I've been using for a while now.

Verdant Force and Plated Slagwurm are not as fast as Gamekeeper, but the win condition comes into play much more consistently, and they're pretty fast regardless.

Plus you are free to supplement the win condition with elves to accelerate it out, and cards like Iwamori of Open Fist to have other fast clocks.

Plus you don't have a huge setback whenever one of your win conditions is StP'ed

MasterBlaster

07-07-2006, 02:12 AM

So if you flip additional Gamekeepers, you keep saccing them, turn after turn until you get hold of a Darksteel Colassus. ...
...If you want a 4cc Tinker/Oath type effect, why not run Natural Order.

The Game hasn't beaten down with Colossus for the better part of a year. The deck has been greatly changed.

The deck now works by killing Gamekeeper with Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood.

The now dead Gamekeeper puts Auriok Salvagers into play.

Auriok Salvagers returns Lion's Eye Diamond to your hand.

You play, sacrifice, and return Lion's Eye Diamond until you have enough mana to draw your deck with Chromatic Sphere and kill your opponent with a Pyrite Spellbomb.

Zelyon

07-07-2006, 02:48 AM

My comments are addressed at the last four decklists posted (look at the last page) all of which are still are running DSC just like the deck in the initial opening post. So I see no evidence of DSC being outdated.

And I am just pointing out the many advantages of Natural Order -> Verdant Force over Gamekeeper to get out DSC. There is a slightly outdated list of the Natural Order deck posted by SuckerPunch in the Developmental forum, though the current list I am using runs black for additional disruption.

Also, what you're referring to is mechanistically a very different deck. It runs a very different combo, an actual combo, and different enablers (no dragon breath etc) that probably warrant a different thread.

Anarky87

07-07-2006, 03:13 AM

MasterBlaster

07-07-2006, 03:13 AM

First off, Dragon Breath doesn't combo with the Colossus. After the Gamekeeper is killed the Colossus enters play and than the cards that you milled hit the graveyard and Dragon Breath never triggers.

Second, the Salvager combo is the most resilient and fast Gamekeeper win condition. However many lists run Colossus in the sideboard to get around Pithing Needle and Arcane Lab/Rule of Law.

EDIT: Third, I'm an idiot and didn't realize that Salvager and Colossus each have their own thread. Oh well. I'm an internet idiot.

Zelyon

07-08-2006, 01:42 AM

Benie Bederios

07-08-2006, 05:34 AM

Yes this is the thread for the DSC list and there's a seperate thread for Salvagers.

Ok now that that's cleared up.

So you are reliant on having a Cabal Therapy for each Gamekeeper you run into, why not just run Natural Order instead.

Natural Order -> Verdant Force or Plated Slagwurn along with a bunch of disruption (Chalice, Trinisphere, a black splash if you desire) all supplemented with elves to accelerate it out, and cards like Iwamori of Open Fist to have other fast clocks.

With removal like StP and cards like Meddling Mage so rampant is the format, it only makes sense to run a deck that's not reliant on a specific combo and 1 of 2 creatures that you hope you can keep in play.

By using Natural Order, you can retain all the disruption, while still running elves for acceleration, and many other beat sticks like Iwamori.

As a result of this, the clock actually becomes much faster and the deck much more resilient.

Gamekeeper > Natural Order

You only need 1 card: the Gamekeeper and not a creature and Natural Order

It can find DSC, that card is better than Verdant Force, DSC will kill in 2 turns.

Do you know how insane it is to link Cabal Therapys to find a DSC, sometimes I hope I ditch another Cabal Therapy and hit the second Gamekeeper instead of DSC. This way I can ruin my opponents hand.

It doesn't give carddisadvantage. If you play Order and they counter it, you must sac the creature, if they counter Gamekeeper to bad. Also you only have to resolve one card.

Gamekeeper can die on alot of ways, it's a creature remember. It can die in combat, some versions of the deck run Innocent Blood/ Diabolic Edict to sac the Gamekeeper. And why shouldn't you run Cabal Therapy it's good and if you have it in your graveyard you can sac Gamekeeper for no additional cost, and if you don't, just try to loose it onanother way.

So it looses speed and resilience, not gain it. Try this deck next Secret Force. You only need to rely on 1 card and you have alot of disruption to get it in. Black is needed its great disruption and it allows you to run Pernicious Deed( btw another way to kill Gamekeeper). You suggest running Chalice and Trinisphere with elves? That is been done and its bad. Gamekeeper can get Collossus out on turn 2 in Gamekeeper with T1: Swamp, Cabal Therapy( naming FoW) T2: Forest, Ritual, Gamekeeper, Flashback Cabal Therapy( hitting a card) killing on turn 4. To do this with Natural Order you must run some acc like Ancient Tomb and your elve must survive and you hadn't had a chance to ruin your opponents hand, where I had already to shots.

In short. Running Gamekeeper and more disruption > Running Natural Order with lots of not strictly needed cards( elves Tombs etc.)

Zelyon

07-08-2006, 01:09 PM

To start off, I was mistaken to compare Gamekeeper and Natural Order.
The first is a combo oriented deck (an easily disruptable one IMHO), and the latter more suitable for an aggro control deck with multiple beatsticks and win conditions.

DSC may kill a turn or two faster than Natural Order targets, but it will take a turn or two to kill Gamekeeper unless you alreayd have a cabal therapy inthe yard.

But the main weakness for gamekeeper is that it is reliant on one card as it's win condition. Which means if it gets countered, you do care, bc it'll take a while for you to find another one, by which time, they'll have another counter ready. And it's also vulnerable to cards like Meddling Mage.

Benie Bederios

07-08-2006, 07:21 PM

Like most combodecks a single card must resolve to win fast. Unlike most combodecks this deck runs a huge amount of Disruption. Next to that it doesn't try to win as fast as possible but wants to secure his win first. Look at the deck( I don't know the most recent version, maybe someone can tell me) but they run up to 20 cards disruption sometimes( 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Innocent Blood, 3 Pernicious Deed, 2 Funeral Charm.) The target is to get your opponent out of arms and then secure a quick victory. So you start by throwing all disruption to his head, And while he is trying to get back in to the game you seal the victory with a card that must be dealed with in two turns and the opponent is probably in topdeckmode. So it can easily fight counterspells with there discard.

That strange Secret Force Deck hasn't got any real answers against Counterspells. The deck Suckerpunch had posted in development forum used Tangle Wire and Chalice( put on 2 I presume) to disrupt. Well the Counterspell you must be afraid of has got a CC of 5 and dodges Tangle Wire. So you haven't got a chance of putting the fatties in play in the early turns and the deck becomes a bad aggro deck. Playing bad aggro might stand a chance against pure control decks( but I even doubt it), but in Aggro control( *****) you will loose horribly.

This deck can fight alot of different decks with there MD. They got discard against Combo/Control, Creature Destruction against Aggro, and even Boardsweepers. Do you no how it feels to play innocent blood against and your opponent looses Plated Slagwurm and you gain a DSC.

The deck runs about ten cards to get rid of his own Gamekeeper, and Gamekeeper will stall his opponents too, because they won't want to attack into it. This deck hasn't got a single matchup that is an autoloss but combo decks( Solidarity and Iggy-pop) can play around your disruption quite easily( Solidarity runs enough bounce to stop Chalice and Iggy-pop will combo before you get Chalice for 2 in play. Also a well timed Clasm of ***** or Rifter can whipe your board, but I would be glad if that happens. You say that Meddling Mage is a bigger problem for The Game than it is for Secret Force, but UGw ***** will beat you if they slap down a Meddling Mage on Order. The you haven't got creatures to match his. The only advantage I can find is that Natural Order isn't relient on the GY, but Keeper doesn't strictly need it.

And you say it are both different decks, Gamekeeper is a combocontrol deck, where Secret Force is a Aggrocontrol deck. So you can't say "Why don't you play Natural Order in that deck" because it will be a completly other deck, with different matchups.

Zelyon

07-09-2006, 12:38 AM

the current list I am using runs black for additional disruption.

The Natural Order deck runs a lot of the same disruption as this deck. So a lot of what you posted isn't relevant.

In addition, it runs beats like Iwamori of Open Fist which easily stand up to and beat the creatures in aggro control decks. And as a result it isn't reliant on resolving one specific card to win. So no, it doesn't have trouble with aggro control. It can easily win through a Mage naming Natural Order since it's not reliant on the card in the least for it's giant beatsticks.

Benie Bederios

07-09-2006, 12:19 PM

Anarky87

07-09-2006, 02:34 PM

Why do you say that The Game is easily disruptable? It has 20( TWENTY) cards to protect his win. It's a disruption deck. Look at it as MBC with a very good win condition. The Game is a black deck with splash for green, so it can play the disruption far better( you just play swamps until you need to play Gamekeeper/ Deed) where you have to play green early on to play out the elves and it's difficult for you to get double BB on turn 2 for Hymn and double GG on turn 3 to play Order.

And if you also run 20 disrution cards, you can't use Natural Order very well or you would have to drop your draw. Gamekeeper allows you to put a deck full of disruption and draw and only need 5 slots to win. Natural Order, must play additional creatures, most of them louzy 1/1 elves and such, to work. So you won't have as much disruption as The Game. You have to start with building up a manabase of elves, and than disrupt your opponent, where The Game just starts turn 1 with shooting disruption to the opponents head.

Another point of this deck is that it can use different creatures in the SB instead of DSC. Have you tried Thunder Dragon against Goblins, it just rules.

Why is it bad to rely on 1 card when all the other cards are there to put the card fast and SAFE in to play. I mean Tog isn't a bad deck either, and it also works by getting 1 card in to play.

If you say your deck is better, start a thread in New and Development and start making results as good as The Game already has done.

Because usually if a deck has green in it and revolves around a creature finish, he will hijack the thread and tell you why you should just end up playing NaturalOrder.dec. He did it with The Rock thread, he went head to head with someone questioning his deck over at Starcitygames until it got locked. This deck and its brother deck are exactly what Benie has said: it's a combo deck wrapped up into a ball of disruption that makes it hard for the opponent to handle.

It doesn't need Natural Order, because Keeper has everything N.O. doesn't. The only way I could see N.O. working is if you wrapped it in disruption to ensure your spell resolving. But even then, why not just play The Game/Salvager Game and be more consistent?

Michael Keller

08-03-2006, 06:49 PM

The Game is ridiculously outdated and obsolete.

There is no diagnostic evidence to support that statement.

At least the original "Game" doesn't auto-scoop to Chalice for 0, 1, or Pithing Needle alone.

*Shrugs*.

Highly considering playing the Game this Saturday now just because he said that lol.

Lego

08-04-2006, 12:01 AM

At least the original "Game" doesn't auto-scoop to Chalice for 0, 1, or Pithing Needle alone.

You are sadly mistaken if you think that Salvagers game auto-scoops to these. There are several ways around each of these cards. A lot of lists run maindeck Pernicious Deeds, which is hot and should be run by everyone. As far as I know they all run Wish for Sex Monkey or Viridian Zealot. Heck, you can even Wish for Darksteel Colossus and discard it to Gamekeeper into it if you really need to.

Yes, if Duress and Cabal Therapy miss Chalice and Needle, they can annoy you if they hit play, but they are far from game.

Goblin Snowman

08-04-2006, 02:29 AM

The card that Salvagers (nondeeded) fears is Humility. Still in support of Salvagers, but I do have a thing for The Game. Is there a current list your all using?

1-UP

07-05-2008, 03:11 PM

I know necro-ing a 2 year old thread as a first post is stylish, but I saw Salvager Game was getting a little bit of discussion and felt it would be inappropriate to derail it.

I built a version of this deck a few years ago and quickly dismantled it. It simply felt like too much of a one-trick pony and I could never seem to get it to flow right. Whenever it DID work, it didn't really feel like I was doing anything broken or unfair. It simply felt like a mediocre deck. I tried the Salvager Game version and it also felt unwieldly (It worked, but never made me go "Wow!").

Two years of sets have brought a lot of love however, and I've thrown together a list that's been running fairly well. Note that this is a current build and there's some experimentation in it.

4x Gamekeeper
2x Darksteel Colossus
2x Sundering Titan

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Small Pox
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
3x Crime/Punishment
1x Putrefy

4x Dark Ritual
2x Life from the Loam
4x Commune with Nature

4x Treetop Village
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Bayou
5x Forest
3x Swamp

The deck has been surprisingly robust for me. In the odd cases where Gamekeeper doen't come out to play or the big nasty gets dealt with, man-land beats pick up the slack. Life from the Loam gives the man-land strategy legs and works very well with with Gamekeeper or even Small Pox (sac a land, discard a land and you've got enough in the yard to make it worthwhile).

Small Pox gives the 2nd sacrifice outlet this deck always seemed to desperately need. It can also shove a DSC back in the deck when needed.

The DSC has taken a backseat in usefulness though. I always seem to be hoping to rip Sundering Titan off of the top more. The Urborgs mean it's VERY common to nail 3 lands when he comes in. In odd situations you can also sac it immediatly to Cabal Therapy and generally Armageddon their board, leaving you with man-lands (or LftL) to finish them off. Also, Dark Ritualling out the Titan isn't unheard of.

Urborg, in addition to powering up the Titan, was really the other keystone in making this deck play right. First turn Treetop, 2nd turn Urborg into a Hymn or emergency Small Pox happens often enough. The smoothing out of the mana really made a big difference in how this deck plays.

There's so many little synergies in the deck it's silly.

Obviously there are some spots up for question. 4x Commune with Nature is certainly questionable. I've been using it to dig for Gamekeeper, but I'm very close to swapping in Sylvan Library and some fetchlands. The single Putrefy was there to get some variety in removal, but without tutors it's probably not worth it. Crime/Punishment is just an experiment because it's dirt cheap but will blow up at the same cost as Engineered Explosives. Could it be Pernicious Deed? Probably, but you never know until you try. I haven't wished for them to be a deed yet, but they've only been relevant in a handful of games. My local meta's had a lot more tokens than usual so they've been behaving better than Infest. I've been thinking about adding in Cabal Pit. I don't think it'd hurt.

Jak

07-05-2008, 04:27 PM

I definitely like what you have done to the deck. It looks really interesting. The only suggestions I could make before testing is to add Pernicious Deed. It is so much better than Crime/Punishment when there are Chalices, Trinis, Counterbalances, Moons, Goblins, Goyfs, Geese all at different CMC. Another thing I would try to add is Thoughtseize or Duress. Hymn isn't really enough and having a play first turn is good to delay their combo or get rid of Counterbalance. Other than that I really like it.

HammafistRoob

07-05-2008, 06:08 PM

I think Wasteland would be extremly hot in your list. Titan, Smallpox, Urborg, and LftL just make me think WASTELAND!!!

Anyways, I agree 100% with Jak. Deed is much stronger than C//P.

Citrus-God

07-05-2008, 06:16 PM

The Game

// Mana 24
4 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Swamp

// Creatures 6
4 Gamekeeper
2 Darksteel Colossus

// Spells 31
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Dragon Breath

// Sideboard 15
1 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Haunting Echoes

Basically, I cut Dark Ritual because I never really cared for the random Turn 3 wins I had and that it was probably only used to power out Hymns. It was stupid. Also, Thoughtseize and board hate was probably enough to stall the game to Turn 4 into your favor. Also, the game plan remains the same; disrupt your opponent the best you can, then you drop an 'Oath' to seal the game.

Brushwagg

07-06-2008, 10:20 AM

WOW! I thought this thread was dead and gone. This deck was really fun to play.

@Deed: You want this instead of C//P. But both have there ups and downs.

Now that I think of it this deck did get some "missing pcs" if you will. I mean Small Pox, Damnation (very playable), among other things.

GreenOne

07-06-2008, 11:09 AM

I'd play Wordly Tutor instead of Commune with nature.
It lets you find a gamekeeper, and it also let you gamekeeper into the creature you like. And are an additional shuffle effect.

playing 4 maindeck also allows some silver bullets in the side, like 1x Jailer against Ichorid, 1x Platinum angel angainst combo, the "new" indrik stomphowler spoiled as a Neturalize effect, etc (yeah, this would weaken the "combo", but hopefully increase win % against single matchups).

Pernicious deed is better in a "normal" meta, since you have 0 ways to play the white side of the card. It's also a sacrifce outlet that rips the opposing board meanwhile, where Crime//Punishment for 4 would likely hit nothing.

I'd like a 1xWasteland somewhere too. If we can fit it, a Volrath's stronghold would be nice too, allowing the topdeck of dredged Gamekeepers and to put on top a Titan when activating GK.

I'd also like some mirri's guile or SDT in place of Rituals. The deck is a control deck with some "combo" finish, no acceleration is needed. Mirri's guile is better than Library in this deck, because:
- you'll never draw a card for 4 life in a control deck.
- You can look at the 3 cards in the upkeep, allowing fetches before drawing, if the top 3 are crap.

SDT is more mana intensive, but survives Deed.

So, basically I'll modify your list in something like this:

4x Gamekeeper
1x Darksteel Colossus (you now have the wordly tutors and guiles that help in hitting the creature)
2x Sundering Titan

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Small Pox
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
4x Pernicious Deed

4x SDT/Mirri's guile
2x Life from the Loam
4x Wordly Tutor

4x Treetop Village
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Wasteland
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept heath
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained mire

Michael Keller

07-06-2008, 08:51 PM

It's good to see an active interest in The Game again. One of the main reasons I stopped playing the deck was mainly due to the arrival of Extirpate and Tormod's Crypt seeing more active play in opposing sideboards. Essentially, the new build posted in kind of a similar take on the original list I created, but with some newer technology.

To keep the deck from being a "one-trick pony" (which I disagree that it wasn't back then, essentially due to the inane amount of discard and removal), you've added creatures like Sundering Titan which give you more of an out against control. However, in the earliest parts of the thread we discussed Worldly Tutor. I'd like to see the results with it's inclusion in the new build suggested.

Valtrix

07-07-2008, 06:50 PM

So, I saw somebody posting in here awhile back, and was curious to see how it works. I read quite a few things about it being a "one-trick" pony of sorts, so tried thinking of a non-creature win factor. Since everybody else seems to be playing it, I was wondering if bitterblossom might have a place in here? I guess it's somewhat anti-synergy with deed and mass removal, but you should be able to play around it. Oh, and it's good with therapy too. Any thoughts?

1-UP

07-14-2008, 12:28 PM

I should be getting together with my playgroup next week and I'll let you know how some of the suggestions have worked.

Don't see a problem with Bitterblossom other than the Deed, as you mentioned. May as well try it if you have the Blossoms sitting around. The nice thing about this deck is it has a ton of "wiggle room" for card choices. I'm thinking I might try some of the "Retrace" cards coming out as well. Raven's Crime, Savage Conception (I really wish this was CC4), and Syphon Life seem like possibilities. Seems like they'd fit in well.

1-UP

07-21-2008, 09:07 AM

Here's the list I tried this week:

4x Gamekeeper
2x Sundering Titan
2x Darksteel Colossus

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Life from the Loam
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Putrefy
4x Small Pox
3x Innocent Blood

4x Treetop Village
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Urborg
1x Wasteland
4x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
1x Wooded Foothill
1x Windswept Heath
1x Swamp
2x Forest

The Sensei's Divining Top played ridiculously well with the LftL. I thought it'd be good, but I really didn't realize *how* good. I have some Mirri's Guiles arriving any day now that I'll try with the next build, but the ability to Draw a Card after a shuffle or to dredge or whatever makes me almost positive the Top will be better. What surprised me was how often the Darksteel Colossus served as a shuffle effect - catch one in the top three and I'd often be dredging him into the yard for the shuffle.

I don't miss the Dark Rituals at all - they were a good cut.

The additional fetchlands were interesting. I didn't find myself Loaming them for fetchland CA nearly as much as I thought I would, or using them for shuffle effects. Don't get me wrong, there were at least one or two times a game where they shuffled away absolute dreck, but I guess I envisioned it more like 4 or 5 times a game. The Urborgs really prove their worth again though as they get tapped as swamps a great deal.

Wasteland was underwhelming. It might be because there's only one of them, but the couple of games I played that they showed up and were relevant (Maybe 15 or 16 total games, not the deepest number to test I know) I couldn't really lock my opponents out of anything - losing the card from dredge and the land drop didn't seem to be offset by stunting their mana.

New Problem: Magus of the Moon now busts my chops. I think part of it might be learning to play around him a bit more, such as digging the basics up with the fetchlands instead of the Bayou. He was a pain though.

Old Problem: Tangle Wire still sucks. Smokestack isn't bad with Loam, but Tangle Wire really feels like a kick to the naughty bits.

Anyway, I'm still going to try the new retrace cards in some quantity. I'm thinking 2x Raven's Crime and 1x Syphon Life to start. I was going to go Worm's Feast but I'm NEVER seeing a significant quantity of lands in the yard. They'll either go in for the Hymn slots or Duress spots I think. Hymn has been very good to me though, seems like a 2nd turn hymn always nips a land, which turns into a real problem with an early SmallPox.

Funnily, I find myself wishing for an Exploration a fair bit. If I can find some, I might give them a try.

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 05:50 AM

i feel like we should discus replacing darksteel colossus with progenitus. very little in legacy deals with him. i feel he is a better "hit" than darksteel colossus as progenitus is untargetable and damn near unstopable

FredMaster

09-11-2009, 08:00 AM

How about discussing relevant decks instead?

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 08:18 AM

i feel with the swap of progenitus for DSC and a little modifacation this could be a decent deck

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 08:27 AM

i would suggest something along the lines of

//1cc
4 thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 chainers edict
2 duress

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
4 Hymn to Tourach

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed
3 maelstrom pulse
3 infest

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//10 cc
2 progenitus

//Land
7 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou

this is just a rough draft though

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 08:31 AM

you should probably work another sac outlet into the list. chainers edict seems bad IMO due to the 7 mana it takes to flashback

yankeedave

09-11-2009, 08:32 AM

Have you thought of running maybe a Dryad Arbor and a Natural Order also? Also, what about a single Gaea's Blessing?

Dave

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 08:42 AM

maybe a natural order or two should replace some number of infests. as for dryad arbor, hitting him of of gamekeeper is miserable

yankeedave

09-11-2009, 08:50 AM

You need to sack a green creature for Natural Order, so that was why the Dryad Arbor. Maybe a Treetop Village instead, as its an activated creature?

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 08:55 AM

upon closer inspection dryad arbore is fetchable but to consistently do so the fetchland configuration would need to be fiddled with. this will be much easier with the printing of the G/B fetchland

Jeff Kruchkow

09-11-2009, 09:06 AM

upon closer inspection dryad arbore is fetchable but to consistently do so the fetchland configuration would need to be fiddled with. this will be much easier with the printing of the G/B fetchland

you realize that putting arbor in the deck is a horrible idea? Hitting it off gamekeeper is auto-fail.

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 09:09 AM

indeed it is. but were speculating on ways we could take it and with the printing of the G/B fetch this deck could just run 8 green fetches and 1 dryad arbor. i think youd always be able to get him onto the field without much trouble

Bahamuth

09-11-2009, 10:17 AM

Wouldn't it be better to play the original combo mainboard?

Also, why wouldn't you play blue here?

arcboundravager2

09-11-2009, 10:38 AM

playing blue is a possibility, any rough ideas?

tyleredw

09-11-2009, 10:51 AM

Is there any reason why you aren't playing innocent blood? It's easily one of the most useful cards for this deck, since its removal, and it lets you combo off at the same time, for one mana.

Mr. Fix it

09-11-2009, 01:12 PM

Is there any reason why you aren't playing innocent blood? It's easily one of the most useful cards for this deck, since its removal, and it lets you combo off at the same time, for one mana.

this i can agree with as i been playing "salvager game". innocent blood too good not to go in without.

when it comes down to progenitus and darksteel. Your really just trading protection to everything for half the protection and haste. progen can't attack when it comes out and darksteel can be enchanted with dragon breath for an explosive start. i sorta want darksteel as it can go to work faster.

Tacosnape

09-11-2009, 02:15 PM

Dragon Breath doesn't work like you guys think it does.

If you manage to activate a Gamekeeper and roll 20 cards, including Dragon Breath, and the creature you find is Darksteel Colossus, Dragon Breath won't trigger, because if you read Gamekeeper, the creature is put into play before the revealed cards are put into the graveyard.

Therefore the only way to make this work is to roll Gamekeeper into a second Gamekeeper, getting lucky and hitting the Dragon Breath along the way, then sacrificing that Gamekeeper and hitting the Darksteel Colossus.

In other words, read the cards, and play Progenitus.

arcboundravager2

09-12-2009, 04:07 AM

indeed dragon breath wont be in the yard yet. and i think progenitus is the god damns and if you have a progenitus on board why are you worried about not attacking on the first turn? sure there are edicts and such but with all the discard and such i think you'll be fine

Elfrago

09-12-2009, 05:09 AM

Or play Anger.

arcboundravager2

09-12-2009, 05:29 AM

hitting anger off of gamekeeper is absolute and utter fail.

Media314r8

09-12-2009, 04:42 PM

playing blue is a possibility, any rough ideas?

CMC 1
4x cabal therapy
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x dark ritual
4x mystical tutor (could be thoughtseize, but going down to 19 non-progenetus blue cards is rough)

CMC 2
4x hymn
3x lim-dul's vault
4x Strategic Planning

CMC 4
4x gamekeeper

CMC 5
4x Force of will

CMC 10
1x progenetus

Lands
4x bayou
2x underground sea
1x tropical island
1x forest
1x swamp
1x island
4x Verdant Marsh (BG ZEN fetch)
4x polluted delta
2x Misty Rainforest (UG ZEN fetch)

I'm still not sold on this deck being any better than NO thresh, as we really have no backup plan if gamekeeper is countered, and we run slightly less disruption, albeit discard is more 'sure' than daze and co. This build should have some speed and consistancy. Stategic planning is a bitch to get ahold of, but seems to have excellent synergy with lim-dul's vault and therapy.

Brushwagg

09-13-2009, 01:21 PM

I thought this thread was dead and gone. Damn..

playing blue is a possibility, any rough ideas?

Here's my really old list from 05. It ran really well.

Mana
4x Dark Ritual

Discard
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
2x Hymn to Tourach

Draw/Dig
4x Brainstorm
3x Night's Whisper
2x Lim-Dul's Vault

Board Control
2x Naturalize
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Decree of Pain
3x Diabolic Edict

Combo
4x Gamekeeper
2x DSC
1x Dragon Breath

Land
4x Polluted Delta
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Treetop Village
1x Bayou
1x Undergrond Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
5x Swamp
2x Forest

Update:

Mana
4x Dark Ritual

Discard
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach

Draw/Dig
4x Brainstorm
2x Natural Order
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
2x Harmonize

Board Control
2x Krosan Grip
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Decree of Pain
3x Diabolic Edict

Combo
4x Gamekeeper
2x Progentitus(Or a 1/1 split with Inkwell or Magister Sphinx)

Land
4x Polluted Delta
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Treetop Village
1x Bayou
1x Undergrond Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
5x Swamp
2x Forest

In the SB I would go with a plan B. With all the grave yard hate running around.

arcboundravager2

09-17-2009, 05:26 PM

i think there should be at least one natural order in the main and one dryad arbor after the printing of the g/b fetch as you will be able to run 8 fetches that get him.

RogueMTG

09-17-2009, 06:00 PM

i think there should be at least one natural order in the main and one dryad arbor after the printing of the g/b fetch as you will be able to run 8 fetches that get him.

Gamekeeper -> Dryad Arbor = Riding the Failboat.

Why would you make it so you HAVE to fetch him?
...
...
...
(you wouldn't)

Brushwagg

09-17-2009, 09:12 PM

i think there should be at least one natural order in the main and one dryad arbor

Umm.. NO! Treetop Village should be included though.

The real problem with this deck is, it only have 1 plan and it's pretty easy to hateout.

sauce

09-17-2009, 09:30 PM

why is this even brought up, natural order into progenitus is better than gamekeeper.

Michael Keller

09-17-2009, 10:20 PM

why is this even brought up, natural order into progenitus is better than gamekeeper.

One could make that argument.

Then again, Natural Ordering away Gamekeeper and putting its triggered ability on the stack would get you something like Darksteel Colossus or Inkwell Leviathan. Then you'd subsequently fetch for Progenitus and you'd have two unstoppable forces in play, all due to a Natural Order + Gamekeeper combo. This would put your opponent on a one-turn clock as opposed to a two.

Not too bad, but not great. You'd need smaller critters to get that going faster and that is where you wouldn't want to 'Keeper into a small guy who can't fetch you anything with a milled Therapy.

Scrabble

09-17-2009, 10:41 PM

Here are the weaknesses I've seen:

* Easy to rfg Gamekeepers through Swords/ Oblivion Ring (if you wait a turn)
* Have to have an equal split between 4 categories: gamekeeper/finishers, disruption, sacrificers, and mana: that's a lot to fit in a deck.
*Without Keeper you're toast

Here is what I suggest to fix as many of these problems as possible.

Disruption: 10
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

Draw/Search: 12
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault

Board Control/ Sacrifice Outlets: 7
4 Pyroclasm
3 Volcanic Fallout

Combo Pieces: 6
4 Gamkeeper
2 Progenitus

Mana: 25
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Shivan Reef
1 Underground Sea

SB:
4 Academy Rector
2 Form of the Dragon
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Leyline of the Lifeforce
2 Duress

This is essentially what I just played in a local tourny. The mana base is ugly I'm sure, but it didn't cause all too many problems except for too much life loss (from the Orchards mostly). I fixed this by replacing Innocent Bloods with the Fallouts in the list above. This also brings me to the other problem I had. Counterspells ugh. I lost to an ugly blue control deck due to too many bounce/counterspells. That was the lowpoint of the night. The high point was this-

I beat good merfolk 2-0. Granted, 1st game was a mull to 5. The second however, B2B was sided in on his part, and the Gamekeepers were sided out for the rector package on mine. He played a b2b on t3, probably a good play. But on my turn I was able to pump out a rector (via dark ritual, which i cut in this list.. maybe a mistake), and sacrificed it with misdirection backup. This brought a quick clock for him and as it turned out, he had no outs. He had sided out his Echoing Truths for the b2bs!

This is why I think the rector package is house in the sb. All K Grips and other enchantment kill will be sided out, so the only thing you'll have to worry about once the Form is out is burn. Game 3 you can go back to the Gamekeepers while they side in their Krosan Grips/ Echoing truths lol.

I love the addition of blue to this deck. The forces and misdirections are a better package in my opinion than the Duress/ Hymns. Also, the Brainstorm/Ponder package smooths everything out perfectly, so you're never having to search for that one missing piece (disruption, keeper, or sacrifice outlet). I just noticed that Media314r8 was looking at a blue list as well, which I agree with. The other thing I think is that the red in the deck adds the most efficient board clearer/sacrifice outlets available to this deck. The only thing that suffers this way is the mana base. Is there a way to fix it up or is it better as 5c?

Tacosnape

09-18-2009, 12:02 AM

Relic of Progenitus, Crypt, and Extirpate all also shuts Gamekeeper down neatly. It has plenty of drawbacks.

That said, I don't think Natural Order is automatically better in all facets. Gamekeeper's a one-card combo. Two if you count the means to kill it, but all the means to kill it are generally useful anyway.

lorddotm

09-18-2009, 12:38 AM

Mr. Fix it

09-18-2009, 12:33 PM

most of the stuff your talking about that shuts down the deck is in the mana curve of 1. So lets bring in a stompy idea and put chalice in and set it at 1 to shut down a whole lot of stuff we don't like. Then we can conserivitily use other means of prevention or disruption to protect or combo out with gamekeeper.

Of course keep cabal therapy in as we will need a sacrifice outlet. plus it may be whats needed to clear the path for chalice at 1 to drop and not get blown away or countered.

Some dislike main board dryad arbor for natural order alternative kill. What about using living wish as alternative to fetching arbor?

As cool as natural ordering gamekeeper looks it just seems impractical.

lunar_eternal_blue

11-02-2009, 11:38 PM

Alright, time to try to revive this thread. My girlfriend and I have been working tirelessly on this deck and we have finally made a list that is consistent and very powerful. I believe that it can stand against many tier 1 and tier 2 decks.

6 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth

2 Gamekeeper
2 Progentitus

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress

4 Innocent Blood
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Beseech the Queen
2 Worldly Tutor

2 Sorin Markov

Sideboard

4 Choke
4 Engineered Plague
3 Damnation
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt

There has been a lot of testing with this deck and I am satisfied with this. The reason for only 2 gamekeepers was that it was annoying to keep hitting them off of eachother without having a therapy in yard. They are also dead draws in multiples. It is better to tutor for them.

Beseech the Queen is amazing, as it can grab any combo piece, control card or Sorin. It also goes through counterbalance. Sorin and factories are the decks alternate win conditions, and they fit the deck perfectly (except for factories producing colorless, but they are still lands).

Basically, the gamekeeper combo can be stopped by almost anything (creature removal, graveyard hate, etc.) but only if played at the right time. With 15 hand disruption spells, hopefully any removal is gone when gamekeeper is played. Things like crypt and relic need to be played first, and sit there until gamekeeper hits the yard, so Pulse and Deed can deal with them nicely. Pulse and Deed can also kill gamekeeper if necessary, in case you don't have therapy or innocent blood. This deck also functions like a G/B control deck, raping the opponents hand and blowing stuff up with deed until factories and/or Sorin kill the opponent.

Depending on the meta, the sideboard can be changed too. Thresh, Goblins, Dredge and Loam are big in my area. Grips could easily fit in, and also if excripate is played a lot, then ground seals would be good too.

Initially, we had Dark Rituals and Tops in the deck. Dark ritual just doesn't fit this deck. It is dead late game, and usually early game you accelerate into disruption on turn 1 and then do nothing the next turn or two. Best case scenario you get Gamekeeper off on turn 2, but this doesn't happen enough to justify running it, and also by doing that you risk running into hate. It is usually much better to be playing thoughtseizes/hymns/pulses for the first few turns. Top on the other hand is nice. I just prefer worldly tutor and Beseech the Queen, since you are usually going for a win con, and there are not very many. Top may not be able to find them as efficiently. Still, it is very good and I could see it in this deck if it was someone's preference.

Zappa

04-26-2010, 06:22 PM

Hi, the last post i've seen from this thread is 2009, has everyone given up on the deck? I started a thread before because I thought the deck does not exist, and searching for keywords like Gamekeeper or Game didn't really help. So I started one like last week http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17267-Bridge-from-Below and the deck went into quite some changes. But since I found this thread, I'll start posting here here instead.

I read through the whole thread starting from page 1, and the major discussion that people were having from early pages to the last pages were: Extra card draws and/or Tutor effects, and the Dragon breath discussion.

Today, we have gained an another ally in the form of the Eldrazis. I picked up the deck and built it as I see potential in the deck, and I like the idea of wiping the opponent's hand to nothing to secure and ride out our victory. I noticed that in a lot of the other websites I've visited at, the threads were more about the combo aspect of the deck. Trying to pull off the combo ASAP, with minimal protection. what got me to liking this deck is that it is a control deck with simply a combo finish. If pulling off the combos fast was my concern, I would just play another deck. However, I really enjoy the control aspect of the deck.

My list at the moment:

//Lands (25)
13 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Tainted Wood

//Library Manipulation (7)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Living Wish

//Creatures (5)
3 Gamekeeper
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Protection (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
1 Raven's Crime

//Board Control (10)
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Innocent Blood
2 Damnation

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gamekeeper
1 Dust Bowl
1 High Market
3 Sadistic Sacrament

Sensei's Divining Top,
Since it just cost a mere 1 mana, as well as the amount of fetchlands can support it even more.

Living Wish,
I run the card as having some versatility towards some problematic cards that are in play. As well as being to find the gamekeepers, or as means of not putting all my eggs in 1 basket should they be extirpated. Some of the living wish targets includes lands such as wasteland, Shaman, and High Market.

Sadistic Sacrament in my sideboard I am still having problems with. It is supposed to be my answer vs Tendrils based combo decks, but I was unsure which card huirts them more between the three: Sadistic Sacrament, Cranial Extraction, or Extirpate. However, Sacrament also works neatly on some decks that packs so little win condition.

lunar_eternal_blue

07-27-2010, 05:20 PM

My friends and I have been working on this deck for a while now, and I think we have the most optimized list now. We will be taking it to the GP Columbus. This deck has come a long way, going from 4 maindeck Gamekeepers now down to just 1, and also including the helm/leyline combo.

The reason for the one Gamekeeper is that you don't want to hit another Gamekeeper off of it. By having one and many ways to tutor/dig for it you avoid this problem (unless you wish for one and hit the one in the deck). Cabal therapy allows you to play around sword effects as well, and the hand disruption allows you to clear counterspells and other things away so that you can get the combo off. Deed and Pulse play the role of defense against creatures as well as dealing with problem permanents like relic and crypt. Most permanents that stop Gamekeeper must be played beforehand, so they can be blown up before attempting to combo, same goes for hand disruptions hitting counters. Emrakul is a very solid win condition that is very hard to answer and even more reliable than the previously used Progenitus. We tried one of each for a while, but found that we almost always wanted Emrakul more.

The Leyline/Helm combo is a great alternate win condition. In order for a win condition to be in this deck, it can't be a creature, so this fits nicely. We tried Sorin before, but he is too slow. The helm combo is a completely independent win condition that is hard to stop alongside Gamekeeper. Mainboard Leyline is also extremely nice in the current meta, getting some free wins just by itself. Don't be fooled though, the Leyline/helm combo is very effective even against decks that don't use the graveyard at all, simply due to the instant-win factor.

The variety of tutors enable you to grab whichever piece of the combo you need and the heavy disruption elements make getting the combo off much easier. We have put a lot of work and testing into this and I would be glad to discuss the card choices if anyone has any questions. We have probably tried most suggestions, but more are always welcome.

Another thing that I will mention: Scroll Rack over Top: I love Top, but in this deck, Scroll Rack is better. It can put Emrakul back from the hand, which is huge. It also digs very deep quickly, giving you all of the cards right away. Top is good for many consistent draws throughout the game, but scroll rack is better for hitting the 1-2 cards that you need right away, which is what this deck wants.

4 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Torach
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Beseech the Queen
3 Living Wish
1 Worldly Tutor
2 Scroll Rack

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience

1 Gamekeeper
2 Emrakel, the Aeons Torn

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
1 Forest
9 Swamp

Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Doomblade / Diabolic Edict
3 Mindbreak Trap / Sadistic Sacrament
1 Gamekeeper
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas

Let me know what you think (if anybody even pays attention to this thread anymore), and feel free to ask questions, since as I said, we have tested many card choices to death.

hwtcharger07

08-07-2010, 11:31 AM

I have no idea how you could find that list superior to the golden ghramns gamekeeper/salvagers combo deck.
the right number of game keepers is 3 because you want to draw it but not have to tutor for it, hitting another gamekeeper isn't a problem because of cabal therapy, and other ways to kill the gamekeeper, innocent blood, pernicious dee, whater. Th hee LED based combo while susseptible to grave yard hate is imho better than the current drop an emrakul plan because now everyonne and their mom runs karakas, which is bad news for emrakul. also with the banning of mystical tutor the format has seen little to no attempts at a successful reanimattor list which means people will be packing less copies of crypt and relic (however the popularity of survival decks may change that although relic and crypt aren't very good at fighting those deck) making the salvagers game a better deck, also many people are unfarmilliar with how it works. it also has a good matchup vs goblins, merfolk, and zoo with all the maindeck creature removal.