Pyromancer's Ascension (Grixis Young Pyromancer)

[Qweerios]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/kamiofsight/young-pyromancer-e1371699797118.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/kamiofsight/media/young-pyromancer-e1371699797118.jpg.html)

An obvious contender for a UR shell, so let's break him, shall we?

Here is my attempt:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (28)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island


Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant are also contenders for the creature base. Anyways, pitch in your ideas!

[kwis]

He seems so incredibly vulnerable to hate that it seems almost foolish to build around him.


Dies to any removal
Valid target for almost any counter
Incredibly vulnerable to any sweepers
Tokens don't have any kind of evasion
Eats up your 2 drop turn

Maybe I'm underrating him but he looks very unimpressive to me.

[lochlan]

Dies to any removal
Valid target for almost any counter
Incredibly vulnerable to any sweepers
Tokens don't have any kind of evasion
Eats up your 2 drop turn

Is this a joke?

Most creatures die to removal, most creatures can be countered, most creatures are vulnerable to sweepers, most creatures don't have evasion. So, congratulations: you've just described most creatures.

And it eats up your 2 drop turn? OMG you have to pay mana for it!?!?!?

You know what else dies to removal, can be countered, doesn't have evasion, and costs two mana? Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Stoneforge Mystic.

Young Pyromancer is raw advantage when it gets going, and for a two mana investment--how does this not seem at least good, if not amazing? Sure, it's not "the best creature ever printed," but I think any shell utilizing it--like the one listed in the OP--isn't exactly going all-in on this card.

[kwis]

Is this a joke?

Most creatures die to removal, most creatures can be countered, most creatures are vulnerable to sweepers, most creatures don't have evasion. So, congratulations: you've just described most creatures.

And it eats up your 2 drop turn? OMG you have to pay mana for it!?!?!?

You know what else dies to removal, can be countered, doesn't have evasion, and costs two mana? Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Stoneforge Mystic.

Young Pyromancer is raw advantage when it gets going, and for a two mana investment--how does this not seem at least good, if not amazing? Sure, it's not "the best creature ever printed," but I think any shell utilizing it--like the one listed in the OP--isn't exactly going all-in on this card.

SCM makes value when cast
Goyf is the most efficient beater/wall in the format
BOB buries the opponent in CA if he gets to live
SFM replaces itself with Jitte/Batterskull at worst
Thalia taxes decks which helps her protect herself and win on mana

Young Pyromancer spits out 1/1 tokens. He's quite far from the power level of almost all of the 2 drops that commonly see play.

In the list you posted I see Young Pyromancer as the least valuable player. I expect your wins to come on the back of flipped delver, DRS, and Daze/Force. I'm sure that the deck can generate value using Young Pyromancer, however I also think that you could probably slot in another 2 drop and have equal or better results.

[.Ix]

BOB buries the opponent in CA if he gets to live.

This is what Young Pyromancer does. This is not a build-around deck, anyway. It's similar to most other tempo decks, except it has a mini-Talrand.

I think the deck should have counters that Snapcaster can flash back if we were to run him, so maybe Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce should be in.

[Forgottenforce]

I hate to be that guy but..

Wouldn't Goyf almost always be better then the Young Pyromancer, as it would represent more attack power by itself then a few 1/1s after some spells..?

Cheers if you do break the card!

[KazinMtg]

What about putting it in some kind of nivmagus shell? Seems like it would be really good with something like that. Or it could be cool in that combo deck with paradise mantle in modern (but updated for legacy).

Why hate on attempting to build something new? Sure, maybe it wont work, but it also might, and innovation only happens when you try. Don't worry about the haters, lets give this a shot.

[pochy]

i honestly think that the interaction between the red guy, gitaxian and therapy is just great!
from that list i'd just change the 2x snapcasters for trying a shell with 2x more catrips (preordain probably), for let us draw more (and having more cards useful for searching answers and triggering the pyromancer "for free")... or maybe just with 2 more counters...
i'll try this deck cause the idea seems very interesting

[GoboLord]

I don't have a decklist in mind yet, but I can see this guy performing in a creature/combo hybrid deck. Something that features


Rite of Flame
Deperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Empty the Warrens
Mass Hysteria

I'm just naming the cards that havn't been named yet. Obviously Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are very good options.

[Shawon]

Cards I can think of off the top of my head:

Faithless Looting
Ideas Unbound
Strategic Planning

Maybe a singleton Chandra, the Firebrand? If only that chick was :2::r:...

[HammafistRoob]

I don't have a decklist in mind yet, but I can see this guy performing in a creature/combo hybrid deck. Something that features


Rite of Flame
Deperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Empty the Warrens
Mass Hysteria

I'm just naming the cards that havn't been named yet. Obviously Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are very good options.
OFFTOPIC -sorry-

Funny you posted this. The first thing I thought of when I saw this card is he might be a very legitimate sideboard card in Belcher. A lot of decks side out all or most of their removal for games 2&3, except for sweepers though because of EtW. It might not work but someone that plays Belcher should give it a run through the gauntlet.

[Zupponn]

There's been talk about using the Pyromancer in the Zombardment shell.

[Qweerios]

I was thinking about the BWr colors as well. Stoneforge Mystic and Lingering Souls appear to be natural fits with Young Pyromancer.

[SirTylerGalt]

I'm also really interested in a Grixis Tempo deck that abuses Young Pyromancer. Ral Zarek would also be pretty fun to tap down a goyf / untap a Deathrite Shaman for one more activation.

Punishing Fire is also pretty good with Young Pyromancer. But that would be some kind of Next Level Threshold deck, not a grixis deck.

[Benie Bederios]

It seems that this creature looks alot like Quirion Dryad. You need it down before you chain instants for it to really be effective. On top of that it takes a turn for it to attack. How do you deal with that problem? Also wouldn't you want Dark Confidant with a curve like that?

[Squirrel]

Another Way to make him viable could be:
"Hells Gate"
The Gate + R

4 Innocent Blood
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Tseize
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Bolt
Dark Confidant
4 Bitterblossom
3 Jitte

I don't know if i want to include Punishing fire's and lose the stability of being an Br deck, but it seems like he's a good inclusion into the gate, being another bitterblossom, and quite good with jitte, innocent blood (makes it one sided) and therapy

[catmint]

Quirion dryad is much worse than pyromancer. If the dryad is killed all the "additional value" of casting spells is gone. With pyromancer you still have the tokens.

[HPB_Eggo]

IMO Pyromancer is very nearly a straight upgrade from things like Kiln Fiend in formats that are heavy on removal - you get tangible benefit even if he's removed, your benefit sticks around for more than one turn, and he can give benefit the turn he comes into play. Downside is that it's impossible to one-shot someone on the turn you cycle through and the power you get out of your instants is a little less.

What this tells me is he's best in a grindy deck that just keeps going and going with the pressure.

With that in mind, I'd assume he's best in a Jund shell, probably with slightly more good sacrifice outlets and additional instants/sorceries. DRS/Pyromancer seems like a very strong set-up, though, so it might be worth toying around with.

This would be the start of any shell I'd ever try with this guy...

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy
2-4 Innocent Blood

[kwis]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=177501&type=card

If you wanted to make an explosive turn it seems like he's the best candidate for that.

[SirTylerGalt]

Would Catch // Release be good in the Grixis version with Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood?

- Gain control of your goyf, attack you with everything (including your goyf), sac your goyf to flashback Therapy.
- Gain control of your Liliana with 2 counters, you sac a creature, Lili is destroyed.
- Gain control of your Germ Token, attack with it, cast Innocent Blood during second main phase to destroy the Germ Token and your Dark Confidant.

Or is it too cute?

[kwis]

Would Catch // Release be good in the Grixis version with Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood?

- Gain control of your goyf, attack you with everything (including your goyf), sac your goyf to flashback Therapy.
- Gain control of your Liliana with 2 counters, you sac a creature, Lili is destroyed.
- Gain control of your Germ Token, attack with it, cast Innocent Blood during second main phase to destroy the Germ Token and your Dark Confidant.

Or is it too cute?

My main question is why would you restrict yourself to Catch // Release when you could use some of the other effects. It feels like unnecessary color weight and shorting yourself out of a point of damage.

Mark of Mutiny

[SirTylerGalt]

My main question is why would you restrict yourself to Catch // Release when you could use some of the other effects. It feels like unnecessary color weight and shorting yourself out of a point of damage.

Mark of Mutiny

Unlike Catch // Release, Mark of Mutiny cannot target:

- Jace (no, I ultimate *you*)
- Liliana (no, I ultimate *you* OR *you* sacrifice a creature, Lili now has 0 counters and dies)
- Karn, Liberated
- A tapped Wasteland (which you can use to destroy another opponent land)
- Mishra's Factory
- Grindstone (when the opponent has played Painter Servant and Grindstone, but no mana to activate it, you just win the game first)
- A Lotus Petal or LED that was cast early to protect it from discard
- Various other lands, planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments


Also, it cannot be pitched to FoW in the matchups where it is useless :)

Maybe I should start an SCD discussion thread instead of going off-topic here. I just felt that this card would go very well with Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood. And since both go well in a Grixis Shell including Young Pyromancer...

What I really want, is a good card that lets me sacrifice any permanent, not just a creature. That way, Catch // Release becomes a vindicate for lands, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers...

[kwis]

Unlike Catch // Release, Mark of Mutiny cannot target:

- Jace (no, I ultimate *you*)
- Liliana (no, I ultimate *you* OR *you* sacrifice a creature, Lili now has 0 counters and dies)
- Karn, Liberated
- A tapped Wasteland (which you can use to destroy another opponent land)
- Mishra's Factory
- Grindstone (when the opponent has played Painter Servant and Grindstone, but no mana to activate it, you just win the game first)
- A Lotus Petal or LED that was cast early to protect it from discard
- Various other lands, planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments


Also, it cannot be pitched to FoW in the matchups where it is useless :)

Maybe I should start an SCD discussion thread instead of going off-topic here. I just felt that this card would go very well with Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood. And since both go well in a Grixis Shell including Young Pyromancer...

What I really want, is a good card that lets me sacrifice any permanent, not just a creature. That way, Catch // Release becomes a vindicate for lands, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers...

I'm very much aware of those applications, but the suggested interaction of stealing goyf's and saccing them seemed like something better accomplished by the more focused cards.

Flexibility definitely seems worth it though.

[sauce]

I think he is definitely something to consider in the zombardment shell as stated above

[KazinMtg]

I was thinking about throwing this together for a bit of playtesting. Any suggestions?


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer

1 Sylvan Library

2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

[Megadeus]

Damn... I was really hoping that this thread was for a Pyromancers Ascension deck...

[trollking21]

I was thinking about throwing this together for a bit of playtesting. Any suggestions?


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer

1 Sylvan Library

2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Hymn to tourach seems bad costing that double black I'd rather run 4 thought seize and 4 therapy
They also have better synergy together. With 4 p-fire and young pyromancers, online most creature decks shouldn't be terrible.

Ill be back later with a grixis brew. All I know for now is daze, force, therapy and delver

[Zupponn]

Lava Dart?

[TraxDaMax]

I was thinking about throwing this together for a bit of playtesting. Any suggestions?


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer

1 Sylvan Library

2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland



Yesterday I had written down almost the same deck. Not kidding.

[ReAnimator]

I don't think Innocent blood does anything good for us in a grixis shell as it's only good on turn 1 or if you have a pyromancer, at all other times it's going to be awkward.

I don't know if Grixis is better than RUG, i would assume it has a better combo matchup and a worse midrange/creature based deck matchup. I don't know if that's true, it's just off the top of my head.

I think the first post list is a good place to start but i think you would want confidant, i could be wrong on that.

A few other directions to go would be Stifles and maybe sinkhole (probably not or if yes just as a 2 of).

Also if the fat of Goyf is missed Death's shadow might not be awful, you already have 4 probes, it wouldn't take much to squeeze in a couple of thought seizes dismembers and a shock land or 2. This could work if you were on bobs already.

Something like this off the top of my head:



Creatures (15)
4 Dark confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Death's Shadow

Spells (27)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave


One less force cause of bob one less daze cause we can play a bit of a longer game, and we have discard for disruption. A couple less ponders because we have probes and Bobs.

It's possible that Daze and Wasteland aren't where we want to be, Pyromancer encourages you to have mana so that you can cast a bunch of spells.

I like the fact that outside of maybe grimlavamancer or snapcaster there isn't any big reliance on the graveyard.

If Bobs aren't cutting it but Death's shadow is where you want to be, Snuff out works very well with shadow and pyromancer a la Gerry T's Bug shadow deck: http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_bug_deaths_shadow_wi.html

[Final Fortune]

Is this a joke?

Most creatures die to removal, most creatures can be countered, most creatures are vulnerable to sweepers, most creatures don't have evasion. So, congratulations: you've just described most creatures.

And it eats up your 2 drop turn? OMG you have to pay mana for it!?!?!?

You know what else dies to removal, can be countered, doesn't have evasion, and costs two mana? Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Stoneforge Mystic.

Young Pyromancer is raw advantage when it gets going, and for a two mana investment--how does this not seem at least good, if not amazing? Sure, it's not "the best creature ever printed," but I think any shell utilizing it--like the one listed in the OP--isn't exactly going all-in on this card.

Except he's correct, the biggest issue for Young Pyromancer is that he's a beat down creature with a toughness of 1, which means you're going to get Gempalmed into the dirt and have no game vs Goblins where Tarmogoyf is essentialy red removal proof. and more powerful off the top deck. I think he's basically going to be another Lorescale Coatl.

[HPB_Eggo]

Except he's correct, the biggest issue for Young Pyromancer is that he's a beat down creature with a toughness of 1, which means you're going to get Gempalmed into the dirt and have no game vs Goblins where Tarmogoyf is essentialy red removal proof. and more powerful off the top deck. I think he's basically going to be another Lorescale Coatl.

It's not a particularly great comparison - Coatl would be great in Canadian if it cost two mana.

Even if it doesn't spawn its own deck, Pyromancer is so strong in Canadian that you will see variants that run some number of it, many choosing to drop Tarmogoyf below four to do so.

[Final Fortune]

It's not a particularly great comparison - Coatl would be great in Canadian if it cost two mana.

Even if it doesn't spawn its own deck, Pyromancer is so strong in Canadian that you will see variants that run some number of it, many choosing to drop Tarmogoyf below four to do so.

We'll have to wait and see how it turns out, I really want Pyromancer to be good, and while I think a RUG variant minus Nimble Mongoose and Chain Lightning for Young Pyromancer and Grim Lavamancer definetely has merrit vs the aggro-control and control match ups I'm really afraid it loses a lot of ground vs Goblins and Jund.

[trollking21]

//Creature (14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

//Sorcery (12)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unearth

//Land (19)
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


So far this is all theory crafting but it seems solid. Ill be printing it tomorrow for testing if someone see's obvious holes in my plan before then.

[TraxDaMax]

//Creature (14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

//Sorcery (12)
4 Cabal j
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unearth

//Land (19)
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


So far this is all theory crafting but it seems solid. Ill be printing it tomorrow for testing if someone see's obvious holes in my plan before then.

Tight list! Looks solid!

[trollking21]

So life loss was a fairly serious problem between dismember, dark confidant, thought seize and force as well as I took a decent chunk in the early game.
Snapcaster under preforms on 19 land consistently sitting in my had or being a 2/1 flash. as well as being consistently awkward. I will be adding
+3 baleful strix
-2 snapcaster
-1 dismember
This helps mitigate lifeloss from dismember as wel as giving me a death touch blocker and keeping cards in hand for pyromancer.
Force is definitely worth the shot at taking 5 off of confidant however because it gives me time against aggressive decks as well as combo.

[Grollub]

So life loss was a fairly serious problem between dismember, dark confidant, thought seize and force as well as I took a decent chunk in the early game.
Snapcaster under preforms on 19 land consistently sitting in my had or being a 2/1 flash. as well as being consistently awkward. I will be adding
+3 baleful strix
-2 snapcaster
-1 dismember
This helps mitigate lifeloss from dismember as wel as giving me a death touch blocker and keeping cards in hand for pyromancer.
Force is definitely worth the shot at taking 5 off of confidant however because it gives me time against aggressive decks as well as combo.

How have the Unearths been working out for you?

[adrieng]

I have a question, how is young pyromancer better than bitterblossom ?

Bitterblossom doesn't die to removal the token flyies, and is not dependant of you drawing instant/sorceries.

[.Ix]

I have a question, how is young pyromancer better than bitterblossom ?

Bitterblossom doesn't die to removal the token flyies, and is not dependant of you drawing instant/sorceries.

You can't make several tokens in one turn with Bitterblossom.

[Zupponn]

Also, the Pyromancer is better vs Qasali Pridemage and doesn't give you potentially deadly life loss (however relevant those two things are).

[metronome2charisma]

what about nivmagus and fluster storm?

[trollking21]

How have the Unearths been working out for you?

When I was playing with snaps I was super impressed without it I'm looking for a replacement.
With snapcaster I was going unearth targeting snapcaster. Snapcaster hits field snapcaster targeting unearth unearth targeting pyromancer. I want to replace with another instant or sorcery though. Ideas?

Also the comparison to bitter blossom.
Bitter blossom.
- 1 turn lag
- tokens fly
- cost life
- 1 PER TURN
Pyromancer
If you have 3 mana you get immediate result
Chaining ponders and brainstorms gets value
Sweet interaction with cabal therapy.
2/1 body.

In the current shell I already can't support more lifeloss so 1 life a turn and bob and thoughtseize would kill me



Also about niv magus and fluster storm. Storm will not spam the Baird with copies because you only cast 1 flusterstorm. But if you already knew that and have a list in mind lets see it

[Tao]

The deck from the OP looks really great. I would play the list from the OP but with Confidants over Snapcasters.

This way you can more reliably put something on the battlefield on turn 2 that can take over a game. I would also like 3 or 4 Confidants but don't know what to cut. Like Snapcaster Confidant is also quite good with Therapy. Snapcaster doesn't seem like what this deck wants. The Synergies are there but it doesn't quite fit I think.

[catmint]

A deck with a couple of very fragile creatures as only winconditions. mjam mjam mjam punishing fire mjam mjam mjam
Beeing vulnerable to red removal is a big downside. Batterskull, Nimble mongoose, Goyf and Tomstalker are played for a reason.

[Tao]

Punishing Fire is not the most played card and there are even 4 Wastelands to deal with it.

[catmint]

Jund is a very popular deck that you have to keep in mind when building a deck. Having 4 Wastelands in this deck does close to nothing against jund. Even if you keep your wastes and don't use them on their regular lands (which will hurt your gameplan) they will play in a way to get at least one fire back before you waste. But they don't even need to get fire back. Jund plays more removal than you have therats. Some of it recurring.

I tested against jund with pyromancer-grixis a lot and trust me Tombstalker is the only trump. And even if you play 3 stalker powered by thought scour your overall matchup is still horrible.

Jund aside take a lot at Canadian. Forked Bolt, Rough Tumble... your threats will just die like flies while theirs will survive.

Pyromancer has the same syndrom as confidant. They might take a game over a game IF they live. More often than not they will die. Also confidant takes over games because he can draw into a lot more offensive punch, which is totally missing in this deck.

[HPB_Eggo]

^^^

Every Pyromancer list I've tested so far requires either an alternative win condition or 2-4 fat creatures to win through heavy removal. Lists here have neither and will completely fold to decks like Jund, which packs bigger creatures and enough removal to keep you from accruing much advantage from any of your smaller ones.

Either find room for some walkers, grab some fatties, think of something I'm not, or prepare to be bent over by dominant fair decks like Jund.

[Tao]

It is 4 Wastelands vs. 4 Grove and you have a dozen cantrips to pull ahead in that fight so it is not "omnomnom autoloss to Punishing Fire" like you claimed. And unlike Jund this eats Combo decks for breakfast so of course some other matchups are worse and Jund is probably one of them.

A few Tombstalkers might not be a bad idea for that reason but they don't go well with Cabal Therapy at all.

[catmint]

Please Tao can you drop the freaking wasteland argument versus jund. I've played countless games with canadian, bug delver and grixis variants against jund. All running 4 wasteland and all matchups are negative. Generally the more fragile the creature base to red removal the worse the matchup. Please test before you keep repeating the same argument which does not make sense at all for the reasons stated above.

To the argument "eating combo for breakfast". True - but I also eat combo alive with my Taam America builds and have positive matchups vs. combo with canadian and esper if tuned. All of those have much better tools to deal with Jund than what you brewed up. So you have to ask yourself the question on why to play it except of "it has some cool shananigans".
Win 5% vs. matchups where you don't need it but loose 15% vs. matchups where you needed help.

So far it does not pay off. Myself and others tested different grixis pyromancer version and so far probably nothing strong enough to make a constant impact I think. What has been posted in this thread is miiiiiles away from getting there.

[Tao]

I never claimed the matchup vs. Jund was good or that Wasteland is the best card ever against it and makes the matchup good. Stop putting words into my mouth. You claimed that the deck would autolose to Fire/Grove, I told why it doesn't.

[trollking21]

I rocked about 30 games with my list. ( before changing an adding baleful strix).
And while I didn't test against jund I did against test against Canadian thresh and the results were bad as bad as he's assuming. Like 2-10 getting 2for 1'd off of forked bolt makes you cry. First on the inside and then on the outside. You only have dismember or strix as outs to goyf.
That being said 4 pyromancer 4 delver 4 dark confidant seemed to get there on damage. The offensive punch is there.

That being said I may try a confidant-less build later that looks like this going big with talrand snap and stalker
2 jace
2 talrand
4 pyromancer
2 tomb stalker
4 baleful strix
3 snapcaster
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 thoughtscour
3 unearth
22 land

[SirTylerGalt]

What about Perilous Research?

With Young Pyromancer in play, it reads 1U: draw 2 cards.

You can also play it when a permanent you own is about to get destroyed, e.g. in response to a wasteland or a removal spell.

It's also a great combat trick against Batterskull / Jitte, where you can sacrifice your chump blocker before damage to avoid lifelink / Jitte counters.

You can also flash a Snapcaster Mage before declaring blockers, target Perilous Research, chump block a goyf, then sacrifice the Snapcaster Mage before damages to draw two. It's even better with a Young Pyromancer in play, since you keep the Snapcaster Mage and chump block with the elemental token.


I was also thinking of combining Perilous Research with Catch // Release to kill any permanent, but that's just too janky I guess...

[Grollub]

My initial thoughts, without testing it, on Perilous Research is it falls into the category "dangers of cool things". Without a Pyromancer it's a fairly subpar card, sure it has some situations where it's strong - but overall it's rather lackluster. I don't think a deck featuring Pyromancer should be a "Pyromancer deck", if that makes any sense.

[Shawon]

Here's my take on a Young Pyromancer-themed deck. It's not by any means tempo, hence why I didn't post this in the Grixis Tempo thread:

Lands: 19 (including Tropical Island)

Creatures: 11
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Death's Shadow

Spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Intuition
1 Dismember

I knew Cabal Therapy + Gitaxian Probe is a must have in the deck, as they are not only good on their own and work well with each other, they also make Young Pyromancer really good. Notice the Intuition. With a Young Pyromancer in play, casting Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy nets you 1/1. Then, the next turn, you can cast the Therapy in your hand, net a 1/1, and chain flashback Therapies using the 1/1s netted from every Therapy cast before. Intuition may not be worth it with just Cabal Therapy as its only search package. I tried to run Accumulated Knowledge with Intuition, but it just seemed too slow.

There is no countermagic for now.

Since I'm using Probe, Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, I thought that Death's Shadow would be a good finisher that could turn my weakness of dealing lots of self-inflicted damage into a strength.

I don't like jumping on bandwagons, but let's face it, Deathrite Shaman has long earned its place as an Eternal staple. At first I had Grim Lavamancer instead of Deathrite Shaman, but Deathrite Shaman is just so good not to run, even if you have to run Tropical Island just be able to use DRS to exile creatures.

[uncletiggy]

I'm toying with the idea myself starting with a core of:

2 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Flusterstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 ponder

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

it leaves me with 8 open slot's my considerations are:

4 lightning bolt
2 chain lightning
2 inquisition of kozilek


4 stifle
4 daze

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

any idea's where to start would be appreciated other then needs more thoughtseize

[YamiJoey]

Why Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce? I agree that FS is harder to counter, but it also doesn't hit Diamonds and other various cards. I get that you can Nuv-Magus it up, but I'd still rather counter a Jace than not.

[uncletiggy]

3 pierce is included in one of the packages I purposed to be in the deck

[Quasim0ff]

I don't think trying to fit him into existing shells are the best use for him/(her?)

He/(she?) needs to get broken, and needs to get broken completely. In tempo-shells, she can provide 2 power to attack with on t3, which isn't enough, I think. I think all the cute stuff with therapy etc is cute and all, and could possible be put to good use by Sam Black, but if you want it in a blue deck, it better be broken.

Don't have a list currently, but I'll update my post once I figure something out.

("dies to removal" is the worst argument of all time. So does Delver, and delver is the 3nd best blue creature of all time (best being tinker, 2nd best snapcaster)

A deck with this needs to get all the brainstorms, ponders, dark confidants it can

[Holden1669]

I have been playing a control-ish list with Young Pyromancer for a few days. So far it's been playing pretty well and is quite powerful. Except for a few cards (notably Pyromancer) it mainly plays at instant speed, which is cool. Here's the list:


Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Curfew
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Fire//Ice
2 Unearth

Lands
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Force of Will
1 Deathmark
4 Baleful Strix

Curfew seems weird, I know. But it's amazing in this deck.

[grixis]

this is my list :

creatures (13)

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer

sorcery and instant (29)

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe

lands (18) :

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

ok, for the MD, my hesitations are :

- dismember or terminate (with bob, you dont often want to loose life, and terminate can kill all creatures)
- dismember or fire/ice ( it can kills snapcaster, bob, clique, two elves, shamane, delver, stoneforge..... and tap an tarmo to attack with your token and you draw a card)
- dismember or forked bolt, like the last player who perf with grixis on SCG ( forked can be nice, because, like fire/ice he can kill lots of creatures, make CA, i think to death and takes against mother, thalia, for example)

=> i need a anti-creature who kill tarmo MD i think (so forked bolt is not very good i think, no ?)

seconde hesitation is about probe and cabal :

- in fact, in played 4 cabal and 4 probe you have 15% to have them in your started hand and 30% to have them at your 5 turn, and dont forgot, we played this cards cause of their synergie with pyromencer (but put token on probe isnt very very good) but probabilities to have cabal / probe / pyromencer are not very good (29% on turn 8 if i remember)

So, my question is, why we dont play basic discard (kozilek or thoughtseize). for example :

=> - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 saisie ?

and the last hesitation for the main deck is :

spell pierce. i explain why : i hate play young pyromencer and dark confidant whan i cant protect them, so im not often play them when i dont know adversaire hand or when i have 2 mana (for daze, or bolt, stp...) but if i have 3 land, i can play them to be dazeproof and if i have spell pierce, i can play it against bolt, stp ....and protect my creature (and for pyromence put token immediatly)

=> so maybe - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 pierce ( i had test pierce today, and im happy about it)


now we pass to the side :

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (against dredge, combo..)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast (the same and delver, jace too)
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer (aggro, shardless, jund....)
SB: 1 Perish (shardless, jund, elfball, little maverick and knight of reliquary even if there are not lots of played nowadays)
SB: 2 Submerge (the same thaht perish)
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens (against chalice of the void, in france there are some MUD and big red now, and turn 1 calice is awful if i havent fow)
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm (same reason thaht smash, and to TT too, maybe dredgre and reanimator too)
SB: 2 Baleful Strix (against miror and middrange deck : tt, esper, deathblade...)
SB: 3 Force of Will (against combo deck of course)

my hésitation for the side :

- darkblast : i think its a very good card against all litte crea (snap, mother, thalia, grim, delver, clique...ELFBALL) and against shamane, stoneforge too. We can use it at upkeep => dredge 3 instead of draw and darkblast again. ok its litte expensive lol but it save my life sometimes (DTAXES, elfball..)

futhermore, its synergique with young pyromence to put lots of token and with grim lavamancer to put cards in graveyards

- a second perish (instead submerge maybe) because i expected to see lots of shardless, elfball, jund at the BOM paris and perish save my life lots of times =)

- flusterstorm : its confortable to know you have it against combo et ANT/TES particulary =)

- sulfur elemental or dread of night : i you thought that there will be lots of deat and taxes

i think its all for me,

thanks for reading

thanks for advices =)


ooohhh no, i forgot, i have seen this side somewhere, what do you think about that, it can make suprise =) :

sideboard :

1 griselbrand
1 iona
1 elseh
4 reanimate
2 exhume
4 entomb
2 faithless looting

anyway something like that. i tested it on cockatrice and people said : "you change deck" ; "what the fuck".

other strategy, you can play reanimator with pyromencer (its great with elesh). your opponent will side againt reanimator and at the second you enter delver, bob ...

THANKSSSSSSSSSS ! im waiting for answers =)