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Zirath
06-24-2013, 12:44 PM
Hello Sourcers, I am here with a report from the SCG Legacy Open at Philadelphia this past week. I took down what I am calling “River Rock”. I am aware that the name has already been used but the deck in question has essentially fallen to the wayside so I’m using the name since it’s pretty cool. I know in the past year I had a string of wins with MUD Stompy. I have put the deck on the shelf for the time being due to some issues I have been having with it. In a nutshell, I lost my mojo. I have mostly played Jund in the past months but recently I have made the decision to play a different deck each month and work to understand it and grow as a player. First my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize


1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Deathmark
1 Infest
1 Life from the Loam

And the Starcity link:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56763

As you can see this is a Blue heavy BUG Delver/Team America list running Stifle instead of Hymn to Tourach. I have played this deck for the past few weeks and I had success with it at the Mythic Games monthly. I played it as well at Jupiter Games NELC on Saturday but went 3-3. I spent the night after the NELC evaluating the deck and the problems I had throughout the day. This led me to my sideboard, which I received a lot of comments about on the day. As you can see, my sideboard has 0 blue cards. Let me explain my theory:

In all of my games, I found that I smashed combo decks with my heavy disruption package and quick clock. If I couldn’t find a threat early, I would durdle hard chaining cantrips and not impact the board at all. RUG Delver also has this issue and it causes some very unfortunate hands and mulligans. In addition, I found Spell Pierce to be ineffective in the current metagame and not a card I wanted to be using the combat my opponents with.

These two facts led me to play Thoughtseize, which allowed me to gain information and interact with permanents that I couldn’t remove with Abrupt Decay or permission easily, and Jace the Mind Sculptor, who gives me an end game goal if my hand is threat light or my threats are removed. Thoughtseize was very good and I have a lot of experience with it from both Jund and from the group I play with (we have a decent number of black mages). Jace on the other hand was abysmal; there were many games where a hand was essentially a mull to 6 because I could never cast Jace reasonably.

The second conclusion I came to is that, instead of spreading myself thin trying to win game 1 against everything, I had to accept that my game 1 against many fair decks was going to be weak due to my lack of efficient removal and narrow disruption. As a result, I overloaded my sideboard with removal, allowing me to transform into a Rock-style deck in the second game. I had great success with this throughout the day because in many games against the fairer decks, I would remove cards that were too weak, such as Daze, Stifle or Force of Will, to make space for more impactful cards. This is where I decided “River Rock” would be a somewhat appropriate name. Sorry if I stepped on any feet with that.

I didn’t take many notes but I can give you all a quick recap of my matches:

Round 1: Deathblade

These games were relatively close but hinged on my opponent being able to gain control of the game with one of his two drops. I was able to use Stifle to negate his Stoneforge Mystics, which was key but it was not enough to clinch the game because I usually did not have a threat. There was a critical turn where I cast Infest to clear his board and was setting up to cast Liliana to lock him out the game but he drew Jace. As a result, I fell too far behind and couldn’t find an answer to his Batterskull in time.

0-1

Round 2: Deathblade

Again this was a close match. My opponent kept some weak hands and I got to punish him for it with Stifle and Wasteland. Our game 3 was a planeswalker fight where I had Jace and Liliana controlling the board until I eventually stuck Goyf to kill him in a few quick hits.

1-1

Round 3: UW Miracle Landstill

These games were heavily in my favor. Between my fast clock, Daze and Stifle, I was able to keep my opponent off of plays for most of the game. Stifle hit about 2-3 Terminus in this match and I was able to sink his life low enough that a single threat was able to kill him very quickly.

2-1

Round 4: Manaless Dredge

These games were essentially some of the worst a dredge player could ask for. His first dredge of the game hit a lone Nether Shadow and he was unable to develop his board at all. This allowed me to play out my Deathrite Shaman and Delver to whittle him away til he was dead. I will mention that I Stifled a Nether Shadow trigger so that I could active Deathrite to drain him to end the game a turn earlier. Game two he started with a hand with 0 dredgers and could not find one in about 15 cards. He fought over a Sickening Shoal with me but was unable to do anything.

3-1

Round 5: Cunning Halls

I did exactly what I set out to do and crushed combo in this match. Game 1 I land a Deathrite Shaman and play draw land go while he cantrips. On turn 3 (or whenever he has 3 island), he casts Show and Tell. My hand is Daze, Daze, Stifle, Brainstorm and something else with Tropical Island, two Fetches in play. I Daze Show and Tell. He Force my Daze. I crack my fetch for an Underground Sea, float blue and Daze Show and Tell again. He casts Pact of Negation on my Daze. I Brainstorm, peeling Force, Clique and something else. I ship irrelevant lands and cast Force of Will targeting Show and Tell pitching Stifle. He stares for a second or two and says okay, putting Show and Tell in his yard. I tell him “okay, Pact of Negation resolves” he looks at my flabbergasted and I explain that I didn’t target his Pact with any of my permission. He says okay and puts the remaining spells in the graveyard. I am surprised to see that he doesn’t concede. I untap, cast Vendilion Clique targeting him and see his hand of Intuition, Enter the Infinite and Omniscience. I tell him he can keep it. On his upkeep, I remind him that he has to pay for Pact and he loses. The second game I run out a fast Delver and Liliana. I play the game as though I have no permission, aggressively Stifling his fetches. Eventually he goes for Show and Tell and I Force it. I then ultimate Liliana; this kills two Islands, leaving him with only two Islands. A few turns later he dies.

4-1

Round 6: UWR Delver

This is one of my most interesting matches of the day. All three games were long, grindy and revolved around Geist vs Goyf board stalls. Game 1, I am very cold to Geist and he is able to kill me with it after removing my blockers. Game 2, I keep him off Geist for a while and we both get very low. Eventually, I go for a Liliana with control of the board with a Shaman and Goyf, trying to play around Daze and Stifle. He casts Vendilion Clique and removes my Liliana. Eventually, I am able to kill him. Apparently, he could have attacked me with his Clique and been able to kill me but didn’t go for it. The last game he kept a Volc with Delver, 2x Bolt, Grim, Geist and Brainstorm. I cast turn 1 Thoughtseize and take Brainstorm. He blind flips but bricks on lands and I play out my lands and cantrip a little. I go to 8 from his beats and then cast Infest, 2 for 1ing him. He tries to Daze and I Force. I then stick Goyf and Jitte and win from there easily.

5-1

Round 7: Elves!

Game 1 I open with a Verdant. My opponent plays a fetch and immediately tries to cast Quirion Ranger. I tell him to slow down and show him my Stifle. Seeing that as his first turn, I assume he has a land light hand. I cast Delver and pass. He plays Dryad Arbor. I untap, flip Delver and Waste his Arbor. He scoops. Game 2 I Thoughtseize him early see that the next turn he can deploy his creatures. He does so and I fire off Golgari Charm, clearing his board except for a Nettle Sentinel. I play Goyf and try to race his Sentinel. I then proceed to brick on draws, getting about 7 lands while he ends up finding Visionary and Symbiote. He eventually buries me in card advantage and gets to Craterhoof. Game 3, I disrupt him hard, keeping him from going deep. He eventually casts Glimpse, casts 1 elf, tanks for a bit and lays down Pithing Needle naming Deathrite Shaman (I have one in play). I am excited at this prospect and slam Jitte and equip to Delver of Secrets, killing his two creatures. He untaps, casts a Jitte back. I Waste his Cradle and he dies to the delver pretty quickly from there.

6-1

Round 8: Shardless BUG

I offer a draw to my opponent (I wanted to go home because I was exhausted but I don’t want to concede). He really wants the top 8 so we play. He mulls to 5 and 4 in our games and my hands are way too strong for him to stop me. I Stifle Ancestral Vision the turn it tries to go off and Daze Goyfs. These aren’t really games but I suppose that’s not a surprise.

7-1

So this clinches me for top 8 at 5th place. After the normal logistics (pictures and such), I play my final match.

Quarterfinals: Shardless BUG

These games were very interesting and interactive. Game 1 I get an early Delver and try to knock him low but the double Jace in my hands with Wastelands and Dazes make it dead draws. Eventually he is able to kill the Delver with an Abrupt Decay and gains control of the board. Game 2 we play draw go and he sticks a Strix. I Thoughtseize him and see 2 Goyfs a land and a Jitte with a Creeping Tarpit on board. He knows my hand is 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Stifle. Eventually, I Decay the Strix end of turn. He immediately cracks all his fetches, going to 9 life. I untap, rip Goyf off the top and stick it. He untaps, casts a Goyf and tries to active the Tarpit. I Stifle the Pit. I untap, Decay the Goyf, smash him to 4 and cast a top deck Deathrite Shaman. He casts his other Goyf and kills my Shaman. I draw and slam Delver. He draws and says go. I flip Deathmark and he concedes. Game 3, I mull to 5 (T_T). Luckily, it is Tropical Island, Underground Sea, double Deathrite, Brainstorm. He opens with Shaman off Forest. I play Underground and Shaman. He untaps, Wastes and Dismembers the Shaman. I draw and lay another Shaman. The game goes for quite a while with us developing our board. I manage to stick a Liliana but his Shardless Agent makes it impossible for me to break through his board. Eventually the card advantage from Shardless and my mulligan catches up and I lose.

In general, I had a great day, saw friends, had tons of fun and did pretty well I believe. For me the next step is fixing my deck. Based on the day, I have a couple conclusions:

1) Vendilion Clique and Jace sucked all day. They promote the late game but punish me for trying to play the tempo game. These need to be something else.
2) Thoughtseize was boss. It definitely gave me flexibility in game that were going to go long by letting me scope out my plays.
3) My sideboard plan was correct. Transforming into a Rock deck consistently worked wonderfully. In particular, Liliana, Infest and Deathmark were excellent. The one lose end was Life from the Loam. I never used it and I wish I hadn’t boarded it in.

For anyone that wants to continue working on this list since I will most likely not play it again for quite a while, here would be my new starting point:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Deathmark
2 Infest

This still needs some tuning and Nimble Mongoose may have to be Tombstalker instead. Alternatively, I can put Stalker in the board. The transformational sideboard was wonderful and I would definitely do it again if I play this again. I have also thought about 2 Liliana in the maindeck as well. I will keep trying to think about this list for the next week or so.

Thanks for reading. I have a lot to say about this deck since I like the concept of Team but I feel like the construction of the deck was not ideal. My list for the SCG was not either but I feel like I have figured out a line that can change the deck in a good way.

Tammit67
06-24-2013, 12:49 PM
Congrats!

SansSerif
06-24-2013, 05:08 PM
Congratulations on the finish!

Nimble Mongoose seems a nice replacement for Vendillion Clique, but did you consider Snapcaster Mage instead? Did you feel your deck needed help with tempo and avoiding spot removal (fufiled by Mongoose) or with card advantage and control (Snapcaster's strong suit).

Zirath
06-24-2013, 05:12 PM
Congratulations on the finish!

Nimble Mongoose seems a nice replacement for Vendillion Clique, but did you consider Snapcaster Mage instead? Did you feel your deck needed help with tempo and avoiding spot removal (fufiled by Mongoose) or with card advantage and control (Snapcaster's strong suit).

The problem with Snap is that it doesn't hit good targets in my list. It still requires me to get to 4 mana (like Jace).

One of my friends also suggested Dark Confidant, which could work as well.

F3n1x
06-26-2013, 02:24 PM
For anyone that wants to continue working on this list since I will most likely not play it again for quite a while, here would be my new starting point:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Deathmark
2 Infest



Congrats on the finish. I am slowly building a similar list my self and I have a few questions on the new main deck for you.
1) Have you considered Hymn over Thoughtseize or a mix? (maybe 3/2)
2) How was 20 lands for you? I have been running with 18 -19 in testing and was considering 20. Just not sure what I would cut.
3) With the new list do you feel Ok with just daze and FOW for counters? I am testing the same counter split right now also and I feel like I want another hard counter at times. Maybe counter spell or Spell snare.
4) Any thought on 1-2 maelstrom pulse in the side/main

Zirath
06-27-2013, 07:59 AM
Congrats on the finish. I am slowly building a similar list my self and I have a few questions on the new main deck for you.
1) Have you considered Hymn over Thoughtseize or a mix? (maybe 3/2)
2) How was 20 lands for you? I have been running with 18 -19 in testing and was considering 20. Just not sure what I would cut.
3) With the new list do you feel Ok with just daze and FOW for counters? I am testing the same counter split right now also and I feel like I want another hard counter at times. Maybe counter spell or Spell snare.
4) Any thought on 1-2 maelstrom pulse in the side/main

1) Hymn has felt consistently underwhelming to me. Thoughtseize provides information, which is very important.

2) 20 land was fine for me. I could trim 1 since I cut all the 3+ spells but a lot of opponents tried to waste me out of the game.

3) Stifle is still relevant as a spell and Thoughtseize lets you know how your opponent will play. This allows you to maximize your permission so that your opponent either has to spend more time sculpting, allowing your fast clock to finish him, or try to go for it in a bad situation. If you feel you need more permission you can try to fit some in but the inclusion of Bob over the mongoose will help that as well since you will get ahead on cards.

4) Pulse could be added but what are you bringing it in against? This deck has a lot of trouble with swarms and untargetables. That was the reason for Infest. Pulse could kill a walker but I don't know that I am that worried about walkers really. One of my primary philosophies was that game 1 you are a tempo and disruption heavy aggressive deck and game 2 you change to a Rock deck. This was very successful for me since a lot of game 2s people would be playing around Daze/Stifle which I wouldn't have.

Darkenslight
06-27-2013, 09:53 AM
Would you ever consider Notion Thiefin the Clique spot? Alternatively, Diabolic Edict or Far // Away seem like strong alternatives.

Zirath
06-27-2013, 12:27 PM
Would you ever consider Notion Thiefin the Clique spot? Alternatively, Diabolic Edict or Far // Away seem like strong alternatives.

Notion thief suffers from the same problem as Jace, 4 mana and honestly it doesn't impact the board. If we ran more lands then things would change but then we would also cut Delver.

Diabolic Edict is okay but it can be played around easier than Infest. Infest also beats a couple of other decks, like Goblins and sometimes Merfolk.

Far//Away is too expensive. By the time we cast it, we don't gain much tempo because we are at the mid game where tempo swings are less effective.

F3n1x
06-27-2013, 12:38 PM
1) Hymn has felt consistently underwhelming to me. Thoughtseize provides information, which is very important.

2) 20 land was fine for me. I could trim 1 since I cut all the 3+ spells but a lot of opponents tried to waste me out of the game.

3) Stifle is still relevant as a spell and Thoughtseize lets you know how your opponent will play. This allows you to maximize your permission so that your opponent either has to spend more time sculpting, allowing your fast clock to finish him, or try to go for it in a bad situation. If you feel you need more permission you can try to fit some in but the inclusion of Bob over the mongoose will help that as well since you will get ahead on cards.

4) Pulse could be added but what are you bringing it in against? This deck has a lot of trouble with swarms and untargetables. That was the reason for Infest. Pulse could kill a walker but I don't know that I am that worried about walkers really. One of my primary philosophies was that game 1 you are a tempo and disruption heavy aggressive deck and game 2 you change to a Rock deck. This was very successful for me since a lot of game 2s people would be playing around Daze/Stifle which I wouldn't have.

Thanks for the answers. The choices make sense to me more now. Like I said I am still building the deck and learning it.

Zirath
06-27-2013, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the answers. The choices make sense to me more now. Like I said I am still building the deck and learning it.

Keep in mind that my decisions are based heavily on my playstyle so not everyone would want to approach the deck this way.

Korvo
07-11-2013, 10:45 AM
I would succest to test exactly the updated list from above but with 3 Spell Snare instead of 3 Mungos. Only Daze and Force is a bit low on counters dont you think? And Snare takes care of everything with enough impact to stop you.

Zirath
07-11-2013, 12:26 PM
Snare is okay but it cuts down the threat density. I never really wanted Snare on the day but that might be different now.

yaWgnorW
07-11-2013, 05:29 PM
I remember seeing this deck on SCG, and I'm quite glad I ran into your thread. I was surprised to see Jace, and it tempted me to try it but seeing your thoughts I've gone against that.

Personally speaking, I don't care for the Nimble Mongoose in your 'updated' list, but I do like Tombstalker over it. What I've become concerned with is Tombstalker hurting Goyf. One thing I've thought about is dropping Goyf entirely, but I'm not sure I will. Any thoughts on that matter? Ive seen lists that do this. I know you aimed yours at more of a 'rock' type, so dropping Goyf is likely out of the question for you. It would make it more of tempo that hopes to dodge Abrupt Decay and have a little bit of evade.

On the note of Lilly main deck...I've thought about running her since she is good right now (IMO). I mean, if you board her in in most match ups, why not keep her in. Its the quantity I'm having an issue with. 2/3? I don't think any more than 3 would do well in any meta with this deck. If I ran Lily I'd run Goyf, however.

Zirath
07-11-2013, 08:36 PM
I remember seeing this deck on SCG, and I'm quite glad I ran into your thread. I was surprised to see Jace, and it tempted me to try it but seeing your thoughts I've gone against that.

Personally speaking, I don't care for the Nimble Mongoose in your 'updated' list, but I do like Tombstalker over it. What I've become concerned with is Tombstalker hurting Goyf. One thing I've thought about is dropping Goyf entirely, but I'm not sure I will. Any thoughts on that matter? Ive seen lists that do this. I know you aimed yours at more of a 'rock' type, so dropping Goyf is likely out of the question for you. It would make it more of tempo that hopes to dodge Abrupt Decay and have a little bit of evade.

On the note of Lilly main deck...I've thought about running her since she is good right now (IMO). I mean, if you board her in in most match ups, why not keep her in. Its the quantity I'm having an issue with. 2/3? I don't think any more than 3 would do well in any meta with this deck. If I ran Lily I'd run Goyf, however.

I'm not sure if Nimble is good; I want a creature that can end the game quickly. Tombstalker is definitely good.

I would not cut Goyf. Some people don't like him but I do. He has consistently proven himself to me as a powerful card that controls the pace of games.

Lilly maindeck would be reasonable. I don't know what those last slots will be still. Nimble and Bob have been underwhelming. Tombstalker would probably be my choice since I love Stalker.

Korvo
07-12-2013, 02:15 AM
Stalker is definitly the better choice over Mungo. You should give them a try.

Now that you have 4 Thoughtseize main i think theres a much better chance against combo. Cause you have no counters in SB.

@Zirath: did you ever need snuff out? Wouldnt Disfigure be enough to stop little creepy creatures f.e. Shaman?

twndomn
07-13-2013, 02:49 PM
I don't want to take credits away from you, but...

1. isn't there's already an established deck type, calling this BUG delver?

2. usually, rug delver would run as many as 30 instant/sorcery in some lists to try to flip delver, your list doesn't provide as much, can you still flip delver consistently?

Zirath
07-14-2013, 12:42 PM
Stalker is definitly the better choice over Mungo. You should give them a try.

Now that you have 4 Thoughtseize main i think theres a much better chance against combo. Cause you have no counters in SB.

@Zirath: did you ever need snuff out? Wouldnt Disfigure be enough to stop little creepy creatures f.e. Shaman?

I would chose Stalker right now as well. I have also talked with my crew about playing Liliana main deck as well. Right now I would pick Stalker or Liliana.

@Snuff Out: Snuff Out doesn't kill DRS. It does however kill Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. I don't quite remember how good Snuff out was on the day but I don't remember it being that great. There is a chance I would remove Snuff Out but I would have to sit down and analyze the metagame to decide if Disfigure is the correct spell.


I don't want to take credits away from you, but...

1. isn't there's already an established deck type, calling this BUG delver?

2. usually, rug delver would run as many as 30 instant/sorcery in some lists to try to flip delver, your list doesn't provide as much, can you still flip delver consistently?

1. I mentioned above that this is BUG Delver/Team America. My naming convention refers to my sideboard, which is tremendously different than a traditional BUG Delver sideboard. Normally a BUG sideboard is blue heavy but I eschewed almost all the blue cards and played a black heavy sideboard so I would be a Rock deck in my second game against fair decks. You tend to board out Force of Will and other counter spells in game 2 so I decided that I would construct a transformational sideboard.

2. I haven't had a problem with flipping Delver honestly. Part of the concept here is that with Deathrite and Stalker/Clique, Delver doesn't need to flip for the deck to end a game. It is simply a perk.

mooremad013
07-14-2013, 11:36 PM
Hey, Congrats on placing 6th! I have been playing RUG Delver for months now and have been considering to swap over to BUG and really enjoyed and appreciated your round by round reports. I have to say that I am a huge fan of nimble mongoose and have won with the card through more abrupt decays and swords to plowshare then I can count. However, i feel like playing them in this list does not work as well as it does in RUG Delver, I think that both Dark confidant and Tombstalker are both great choices, and honestly cannot really choose between the two because I have not play tested with the deck. Tombstalker's downside is similar to goose in that you need alot of cards in graveyard to be good, but not as many. Also, in your list, in can be counteractive with deathrite which is the same as goose. However, confidant could be dangerous with the thoughtseizes in deck. I think I would probably go with the Tombstalker's simply because they put a big creature in your deck that abrupt decay cannot touch which could be a big deal, but only as a 2 of since you need double black +cards in graveyard. Also, I have been toying around with the idea of playing simic charm in RUG and wondered if you had consider it for this list seeing as it could be another force target, give you hexproof or boost a creature for serious damage to your opponent or an opposing goyf and unsummon is not always the best but it could deal with a flipped delver sometimes. Also, I would consider dropping a land for maybe a gitaxian probe. You said that you really like the information and I think it could be a good replacement. I am really interested in knowing your thoughts on these cards. Thanks!

P.S. If you would cut a land, I would probably cut a trop, idk how important each of the different duals have been for you but I feel like more sac lands are better and the trop is not the most necessary, especially if you cut the geese.

ESG
07-17-2013, 06:35 PM
"River Rock" = false advertising.