Punishing Pyromancer

[HPB_Eggo]

As of the moment, my testing has shown the LftL variant to be the strongest for Punishing Pyromancer. The absolute core looks like this...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime

3 Mox Diamond

23 Lands


Followed up with a bunch of other things, numbers and whatnot of which are in flux. Definitely needs a little beef and a 'walker or two in it, usually in conjunction with Dark Confidant. Burning Wish is something I'm still meaning to test here, and the numbers of Crime/LftL/Decay are all potentially off by a small amount. Will have to see how things continue to go.

[TraxDaMax]

I'll post my first attempt when I get home.

[KazinMtg]

Since the list I put up in the other thread fits much better here, I'll toss it in this thread instead. I'm not sure if it's better than just playing jund, but I'm willing to give it a shot.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer

1 Sylvan Library

2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

[HPB_Eggo]

After a lot of testing I have, unfortunately, reduced the number of cards I would currently consider core, rather than increasing it.

Faithless Looting and Innocent Blood are both great, but Looting has only been great in some specific iterations and Innocent Blood is only better than, say, Diabolic Edict when you have Young Pyromancer out. As this isn't a tempo-oriented deck that difference in one cost isn't huge, and I probably wouldn't run Edict here. Have to decide, then, if it's worth running just for the interaction with Pyromancer, a question I think puts it outside of core for the moment.

As such, current core has reverted to this for my own testing purposes...

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Cabal Therapy
3-4 Punishing Fire

3-4 Grove of the Burnwillows


Only thing I can say 100% for certain is that simply slotting Pyromancer into Jund over some number of other creatures does not make Jund a better deck. More tweaks are needed than just that, but as of this moment I can't say which possibilities are better than others.

[alderon666]

Needs moar Gitaxian Probe! It gets you a token if Pyromancer resolves on turn 2 and is awesome with Cabal Therapy... do I really need to say anything else?

Oh and Shaman can give you the blue mana if you need to cast it without paying life.

[P-E]

Raven's crime (+loam) and pyromancer could be great making him discard and applying board pressure

[evanmartyr]

I can't see any reason not to run Gitaxian Probe here, other than potentially making Mulligans harder. It synergizes well with most of the core cards (very well with some) and is free 99% of the time.

Also, any sort of cheap spell with both an immediate effect and a flashback/buyback/severely reduced base cost would be worth considering here. Unmask if you run enough black, Lava Dart if you run enough red, etc. Basically anything that is mediocre but marginally effective and becomes degenerate or very good within the context of the "core" cards.

[catmint]

Why don't you just post this in the jund thread?
In the grixis delver thread pyromancer was also discussed.

Reducing the number of overall threads but increasing the quality of the existing/established threads contributes to the forums quality.

[HPB_Eggo]

Why don't you just post this in the jund thread?
In the grixis delver thread pyromancer was also discussed.

Reducing the number of overall threads but increasing the quality of the existing/established threads contributes to the forums quality.

Because I tested simply tossing Young Pyromancer into a current Jund shell with minimal changes and the card did not perform well? Simply because it is in the same colors does not mean that it should be in the same thread.

From suggestions on the thread I'm going to be testing decks with this shell today to see how it goes. Will let everyone know.

4 DRS
4 Pyromancer

4 P. Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
2-4 LftL
2-4 Raven's Crime

3 Grove of the Burnwillows


Will try slotting in Gitaxian to see how it goes, as well, since people seem pretty in favor of that one, too.

[zulander]

I don't like Probe in this deck, I think it seems appealing but falls under the "danger of cute things" category. The card replaces itself, and if it happens you have YP on the board it puts a 1/1 into play. Is that really good? No. That actually sucks. I guess it's good if you have 2 YP out, then for two life you replace a card and get two 1/1's, that's pretty much the best case scenario I see it having. Otherwise I think it would just flat out suck. I'm also not a huge fan of Therapy, but it could be okay. I think the best way to play YP is to play it along with a lot of value cards so that you don't get hosed by playing "bad 1cc.dec". Cards like Hymn come to mind immediately (nice 3 for 1) when thinking of the deck construction.

[HPB_Eggo]

I don't like Probe in this deck, I think it seems appealing but falls under the "danger of cute things" category.

Honestly? I agree completely, but if people are suggesting it they must not. At the very least I'm going to test it in a handful of games and see what happens.


I'm also not a huge fan of Therapy, but it could be okay.

Therapy is arguably the best discard in all of Legacy and plays well with Pyromancer, so I'm going to disagree with you here.

A fairly common line of play goes like this...

Turn 1: Fetch, Crack, Deathrite Shaman
Turn 2: Fetch, Crack, Pyromancer, Therapy, Therapy

That sort of play completely dismantles some decks, and could be run in somewhere around 1/4 of the games I play. Not that you should blindly open every game like this, as, for instance, on the draw against Canadian you will get wrecked following this plan.


I think the best way to play YP is to play it along with a lot of value cards so that you don't get hosed by playing "bad 1cc.dec".

Again, I agree. Any deck playing with Young Pyromancer is either going to be incredibly tempo-oriented or incredibly grindy to get full value from him. Since this would be a grindy variant, we need as much value from every play as we can possibly get.


Cards like Hymn come to mind immediately (nice 3 for 1) when thinking of the deck construction.

And here's where you're wrong. While Hymn isn't bad - it is a 3 for 1 with Pyromancer and can still be dumped as a 2 for 1 without him - it doesn't recur and is an even worse thing to draw later in the game that other discard effects - a point that we will almost always be reaching if we are going to grind out a victory.

It's real problem, though, is the 2CC. You can't run out this and Young Pyromancer turn two, and turns 1-2 are where a card like Hymn to Tourach is most effective.

So, yeah. Not terrible, but I would be running Therapy, Raven's Crime, and Thoughtseize over him. Possibly even Liliana, whom I have not tested nearly enough to be comfortable calling good or bad here.

[thefreakaccident]

If you guys are going for the raven's crime route, I would run out 1-2 worm harvests. Yeah it's expensive, but it is pretty potent once your opponent runs out of cards.

[HPB_Eggo]

If you guys are going for the raven's crime route, I would run out 1-2 worm harvests. Yeah it's expensive, but it is pretty potent once your opponent runs out of cards.

Some of my testing is actually on a pretty much straight port of certain Loam decks with Pyromancer and solid recursion of sorceries. It's actually turning out fairly well, but I have yet to see if it is better than alternatives yet.

Still, being able to go Mox Diamond + DRS turn one into Pyromancer, Therapy, Therapy, Therapy, Therapy turn two is just silly. I did that against one of my friends on Omnitell and he scooped.

EDIT: To be entirely clear, this line of play is incredibly uncommon. It just so happens that a big play like that is possible. I don't really consider it when it comes to whether or not the deck is going in the right direction or no.

[HPB_Eggo]

All right. After spending the weekend testing, I believe I have a fair example of what a LftL version of PP would look like. Still not positive this is the best way to go with the deck, but I'll discuss some of what it can do.

First, though, here's the list:

13 Creatures:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
2 Terravore

19 Instants/Sorceries:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Artifacts:
3 Mox Diamond

2 Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil

23 Lands:
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp


Anyways. Some reasons to play this deck over, say, Jund...

You can lead any game with acceleration into crippling discard. Four Therapies on turn two is possible as shown in my last post, but it's not very likely. You can, however, have double Therapy turn two fairly consistently, and can follow that up with Liliana and/or Raven's Crime recursion. Add in Pyromancer to ensure that all your discard is also providing more board presence and you can often lock down entire games simply by doing this.

Against aggressive decks you have the ability to make tons of chump blockers with Pyromancer, have recurring removal with P. Fire, and can just generally out-grind them

Against combo you again have strong early discard and strong recurring discard. Terravore allows you to close games out suddenly, as well, if you happen to draw him early on. Acceleration helps here a ton, and is part of what makes combo not as bad as it is for, say, Jund.

Against straight control you, yet again, have amazing discard. Every permanent you land needs to be answered immediately or they risk losing, with the exception of Pyromancer if they happen to have EE out or instant-speed Terminus at the ready. Recurring Wasteland is also excellent here.

Against other grindy decks, you have a handful of advantages: you start slightly faster because of acceleration and you have, essentially, zero dead cards. You are, after all, very close to Jund with some acceleration and more CA/CQ in exchange for not having Tarmogoyf or Bloodbraid Elf.

Your biggest problems are beefy creatures when you can't remove them and combo decks that come down faster than your discard can keep them off winning. While you can generate infinity blockers with Pyromancer while searching for removal and/or Terravore, a lot of the decks where you're going to have these problems aren't going to let you keep Pyromancer on the table. Not much to be done MD against super-fast combo, though. Can still blow them out with turn two discard, but sometimes you will just lose before you can do much of anything. SB should be tuned for helping against decks like Maverick and for shoring up the still-not-great combo game. I'd be thinking Innocent Blood, some more discard, a Jitte or two, and maybe some other things.

Outside of that, numbers are still being tweaked regularly MD. Cards I'm least sure on as of the moment are the lone Maelstrom Pulse and Terravore, as well as the numbers on Liliana, Crime, and LftL. Also will be experimenting splashing white for KotR later this week, in addition to comparing non-Loam paths to what I have here. Should have some more information by Wednesday, hopefully.

[kwis]

Isn't Terravore worse than Goyf with so much Deathrite Shaman running around? It seems like you're more likely to have different card types across the two yards than a number of lands, but I suppose the counter argument could be made. How's he do in testing?

E: forgot he had trample, makes a lot more sense now

[HPB_Eggo]

Isn't Terravore worse than Goyf with so much Deathrite Shaman running around? It seems like you're more likely to have different card types across the two yards than a number of lands, but I suppose the counter argument could be made. How's he do in testing?

Trample is important, yeah. And, usually at least, he ends up being slightly larger than Tarmogoyf. It's also a somewhat important benefit that I can eat things that increase the power of Tarmogoyf without touching the power of Terravore.

All that being said, Terravore is probably the weakest slot as of the moment. Those two spots do need to be something fat, but I should test some other things there. Tombstalker would probably be a flop. Could try to take a leaf from old Loam decks and try Crusher? Not sure how that would work out. Not sure at all...

I'll wander about and see what I can find. Suggestions would be great, as well.

[HPB_Eggo]

And with some minor off-and-on testing, I can confirm that Terravore is better than Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker in the spot he is in. Will still have to try a handful of other large creatures, including Crusher, splashing white for KotR (which would probably require a lot of changes to the deck in general, but could be the correct direction to be going in), and a handful of other larger creatures from decks such as Nic Fit.

Any ideas would be great to hear, since it's difficult to find the time to test thoroughly and to figure out everything I should be testing thoroughly.

Also, so far as I can tell, the LftL variant is the strongest across the board. It accelerates into an excellent mid-game and wins late against most decks in the format. It has problems - not major, but they're definitely less than 50-50 - against Canadian - keeps you off creatures with burn/counters, but you can still blow them out with early discard - Jund - more removal, bigger creatures - and fast combo - fast being anything that consistently wins before turn three, as you can usually start putting up enough discard to keep them down after that point, and you always get to SB for games 2-3 - but tends to be positive against the rest of the field.

[SpeedOfDark]

I don't like Probe in this deck, I think it seems appealing but falls under the "danger of cute things" category. The card replaces itself, and if it happens you have YP on the board it puts a 1/1 into play. Is that really good? No. That actually sucks. I guess it's good if you have 2 YP out, then for two life you replace a card and get two 1/1's, that's pretty much the best case scenario I see it having. Otherwise I think it would just flat out suck. I'm also not a huge fan of Therapy, but it could be okay. I think the best way to play YP is to play it along with a lot of value cards so that you don't get hosed by playing "bad 1cc.dec". Cards like Hymn come to mind immediately (nice 3 for 1) when thinking of the deck construction.

Gitaxian probe is okayish with young pyromancer, but it is amazing with cabal therapy. The idea here is that it may not be quite good enough to include if it only interacts well with 4 cards (cabal therapy), but the inclusion of young pyromancer pushes it's synergy enough to include it in the deck. Mind you, this may not be the case and it also may not be a 4-of, but I think it's definitely test worthy. Let's also not forget that despite the drawbacks (life loss, awkward mulls), probe gives useful information that a skilled player can use to optimally sequence his plays.

[HPB_Eggo]

Gitaxian probe is okayish with young pyromancer, but it is amazing with cabal therapy. The idea here is that it may not be quite good enough to include if it only interacts well with 4 cards (cabal therapy), but the inclusion of young pyromancer pushes it's synergy enough to include it in the deck. Mind you, this may not be the case and it also may not be a 4-of, but I think it's definitely test worthy. Let's also not forget that despite the drawbacks (life loss, awkward mulls), probe gives useful information that a skilled player can use to optimally sequence his plays.

I did test it. It isn't good enough to include over anything in the LftL list that I posted. We don't have enough cards that benefit from the information, and getting a 1/1 and an additional card or two off Therapy isn't worth the slots when you have to take out either removal, engine cards, key acceleration/utility pieces, or win conditions.

[uncletiggy]

going to start looking into this list and work forward from there any initial concerns I may have over looked would be welcome feedback is good whether brutal or uplifting:


2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Raven's Crime

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Darkblast

4 Faithless Looting
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library

3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dark Confidant
1 Darkblast
1 Deathmark
1 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Perish
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Virtue's Ruin

[HPB_Eggo]

Some things that initially look a little odd...

1) Nivmagus. Only time I could imagine you wanting to cast an instant/sorcery and then turn it into two +1/+1 counters is when your opponent has no cards and you're holding some discard, and then only if it's not Raven's Crime or Therapy.

I'd probably cut them and try Confidant 3/4 and something naturally larger in that slot, a la Goyf or Terravore.

2) MD Surgical Extraction seems a little weird. It certainly has its synergies and whatnot, but I'd keep a close eye on it when you're testing to see when/if it helps you all that much. Broader stuff like more Abrupt Decay or Liliana is probably better there, but I'd be interested to hear how it works for you.

3) Darkblast is a great card, but I'm not sure it fill its role as well as Punishing Fire. Requiring four mana to hit a creature for two is a little harsh, and while we don't mind dredging that doesn't mean the deck isn't occaisonally hurt by doing so. I'm sure there's a good reason to have it in, and it's certainly not bad, but again I'd just pay attention and make sure it's doing what you want/need it to.

4) Sylvan Library is something I've wanted to test, so this is more of a 'please pay attention and let me know if you liked/disliked it and why' comment than anything else. I have a feeling it's going to be good, particularly as a result of interactions with LftL, but I'm not 100% positive.


Outside of that, it looks pretty solid, although in all my testing of various Pyromancer lists I've found that the main reason PP performs well - and basically the only reason to play it over Jund - is the ridiculous acceleration with Mox Diamond and DRS. Pyromancer is great in tempo decks that are already excellent at controlling the flow of the game, but when you're playing him in a more grindy deck you need to get to 3-4 mana incredibly quickly in order to have any impact in some games.

Besides, what's more satisfying than four Therapies turn two?

[uncletiggy]

nivmagus is a wild idea and I absolutely hope it plays well with raven's crime as that is what I really want to be doing with it is using all the reoccurring removal and discard that build me ca to drag into the late game where loam has given me lots of fodder to grow it. I want to stay away from terravore and goyf just because I am already heavy in the gy with disruption but I want my threats to be relevant even in the face of hate I don't want to be completely neutered by a rest in peace

extraction is the card I least like in the list and I've always wanted to main deck them in something and it's a free spell that punishes other threat light decks that are probably going to be rough matchups i.e. thresh i'd like to see it go for something free like probe or gut shot

darkblast is in fact p-fire #5 and if you cast on upkeep it cost BB to kill a 2 toughness creature and probably net you a resource in the yard

library is a must without blue it gives me CA, dredge triggers, filter and gives the deck more card selection then any non blue deck I can think of off the top of my head

on paper the concept has access to answers to just about everything, multiple CA engines, card selection, discard, permanent removal, my biggest fear is will pyromancer/nivmagus actually get there as the only thing's going in the red zone or is it really all just too cute? The fact that all my testing will be irl slows things down as I have yet to jump into online magic while i'm still playing catch-up with cardboard magic.

[HPB_Eggo]

Problem with Nivmagus is it exiles the spell, so it's impossible to recur it properly. Using it on Crime or LftL removes the possibility of those engines continuing to make tokens and generate CA, so I'd be really leery to use it on them.

Really there isn't a whole lot I'd be willing to feed to Nivmagus in this deck.

And, yeah, the reason you need something a bit naturally bigger in the Nivmagus slot is because you occasionally need a big guy to get through. Terravore's still been serving me very well in that capacity.

Also, going to see about testing Sylvan Library with LftL and the one-of Darkblast in the hopes that the already incredible awesomeness of library gets better when you can just draw three with no drawbacks as a result of proper dredging.

[uncletiggy]

I Believe you are mistaken on how nivmagus works it exiles the spell from the stack not the card from the yard. darkblast, punishing fire, lftl, raven's crime and friends will all go right back to their homes. and young pyromancer triggers on cast not resolution so you can still make tokens and exile the spell

[Fatal]

Look at comprehension what does it mean Exile/Return/Counter spell: Mindbreak Trap, nivmagus and Venser.

[YamiJoey]

I Believe you are mistaken on how nivmagus works it exiles the spell from the stack not the card from the yard. darkblast, punishing fire, lftl, raven's crime and friends will all go right back to their homes. and young pyromancer triggers on cast not resolution so you can still make tokens and exile the spell

It Exiles, so Darkblast, Crime etc. are going away forever.

[uncletiggy]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=290526 check for yourself or am i misreading this? and if i'm wrong and terravore is the correct beater i'd like to up my land count

[Namida]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=290526 check for yourself or am i misreading this? and if i'm wrong and terravore is the correct beater i'd like to up my land count

You're right that Nivmagus Elemental doesn't exile cards from your graveyard; the issue is that you seem to think when you cast a spell, you put the card that represents that spell into the graveyard while your spell is on the stack. The way that it actually goes is when you cast an instant or a sorcery, you're moving the card that the spell represents from whatever place it was in (your hand, the graveyard, etc.) to the stack, so when you activate Nivmagus Elemental's ability, you are moving the spell (and the card that represents it) from the stack to your exile zone.

[HPB_Eggo]

Considering how Mindbreak Trap works and that the wording of the two cards is exactly the same, I'm roughly 100% certain that the card itself is exiled when you feed it to Nivvie.

In unrelated news, I am really liking Sylvan Library. I slotted it in over one land and the Pulse in the last list I posted and it's been performing very well. Gives the deck yet another big CA thing to push out with DRS/Mox Diamond, and its interaction with LftL is pretty solid. Will have to try running with the singleton Darkblast, as well.

[JeroenC]

Honestly, once you realise what Nivmagus Elemental does to spells, it's obvious it has no room in this deck. I've been messing around with something like this, but decided to splash blue for brainstorm, snapcaster, creeping tar pit and some sideboard cards(Flusterstorm mainly). After those cards, I decided to add in some 4-drop goodies:

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
10

2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
1 Raven's Crime
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
28

3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
7 fetch

The deck is pretty low on card advantage before you hit 4 mana, though, but it does let you tap out every turn if you want.

[HPB_Eggo]

Agreed on Nivvie. I even did a little testing and it was as bad as I anticipated it would be.

As to splashing blue, I'm not quite to the point of testing lists with four colors. Hopefully I will find some time to craft and test some GBRU and GBRW lists in the next couple of days.

Some first impressions on the list you posted...

1) Having access to DRS and Mox Diamond is the single strongest aspect of the list I posted. Assuming you don't cut LftL, moving away from that pairing seems like the wrong direction to be going in.

2) Brainstorm strikes me as being not particularly great here. Looting can regularly provide better CA with Fire, LftL, Crime, Therapy, and lands all being pitched to the yard, can be recurred on its own, and only gets better with Snapcaster around to mak ediscarding things less painful. I'd try Looting in that slot

3) JtMS looks like a great choice, as he is in practically every deck that can play him.

4) Creeping Tar Pit for reach is awesome in every way. May have to try that just in general, since it produces black and I can always hit blue with DRS/Diamond.

All of that being said, I think splashing blue will have its greatest impact by allowing for very quick Intuition for three Therapies. Going turn one Fetch, Diamond, DRS into turn two Pyromancer, Looting, into turn three Intuition, Therapy, Therapy, Therapy, Therapy consistently seems like it would be pretty good, particularly since turn three is about the end of the point at which discard is really useful in a lot of games.

You can also, obviously, end up with excess Therapies sitting around for later use if you deplete your opponent's hand without casting all of them.

At first glance, Gifts doesn't seem like it will do nearly as much, but I'm honestly not sure. You can definitely grab everything for P. Fire and Crime with Fire/Loam/Crime/Grove, which seems excellent, but if you already have one of them you probably aren't going to be able to get much else useful other than a Therapy since we have no recursion for permanents.

It also eats up your turn four without providing any pressure outside of a single 1/1 with Pyromancer out there, while Intuition can just grab a ton of Therapies and destroy hands on the same turn if that's what you need, all while still being able to grab piles like Loam/Fire/Crime.

Not saying it's bad, but it's going to have to prove itself over Intuition to me.

[JeroenC]

Yeah, Gifts should probably be Intuition. I just really wish I could play Gifts in a deck some day. :'(

Disagree about replacing BS with Looting. While BS is not as great as it could be in this deck, it's still the strongest card in Legacy for a reason. And it and looting are completely different cards (imo). In a non-blue version of my deck, I'd run 2/3 Library in that slot.

I'm only running 1 life from the loam as part of the engine with raven's crime, and honestly, that might just be unnecessary. I already have a lot of discard and the deck seems like it would function well enough vs control as is (Snapcaster Hymn gg, wastelock gg).

So I think
Gifts->Intuition(gets PFire or LoamWaste lock, aka gets the job done)
Raven's Crime->Library/Confidant/Maelstrom Pulse. Preferably cut another card to double up on whatever I decide on as replacement.

[HPB_Eggo]

Looting is really just better than Brainstorm here, and I think you'll find that out if you test it in that slot. Its only disadvantage is that it looks at one less card. Outside of that, it can still generate real CA because you don't care about putting a lot of the cards in your deck in the yard, and it has its own recursion mechanism that plays very well with Pyromancer.

If you are running Life you really should just run the one-of Crime. It really is that good with Pyromancer.

Here's what I'm looking to test for a blue list...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Faithless Looting

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Abruput Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Darkblast

2 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime

2 Liliana
1 JtMS

3 Mox Diamond

21 Lands

[uncletiggy]

got it -4 mivmagus -3 surgical +3 terravore +1 pfire +1 bob +2 lands and retooled the mana base to include more utility lands.

[Flopnuts72]

Has anyone thought about an GWR build that uses Voice of Resurgence???

[Flopnuts72]

Has anyone thought about running a more aggro build in GWR with Voice of resurgence???

[HPB_Eggo]

I'm in the process of testing some four color variants, be it GRBU or GRBW.

For GRBW I was mostly considering it for KotR and some solid SB options, but Voice of Resurgence definitely looks good. Tons of tokens plus a big token when we sack Voice to Therapy seems pretty good. Only potential problem I see is cluttering up the 2 CMC slot on the curve, particularly since Spell Snare is still a card. It also requires that you overextend to make it bigger, which is not the greatest of options in a lot of games, i.e. against anything with Deed/EE.

EDIT: Also, GWR isn't really a workable setup for this sort of deck. Pyromancer's great strength here is that it pushes out threats while you disrupt things. Pushing out threats while you, say, make them eat burn just makes it a glorified burn deck, which this obviously isn't. Add to the fact that multiple Therapies is sick and DRS requires black to do its thing and I'm pretty sure green, red, and black are all mandatory in at least some small amount - at least, assuming you aren't playing tons of blue with counters, in which case the deck changes entirely.

[HPB_Eggo]

Have finally "completed" testing on a straight GBR list and will start testing out the two splashes with different lists over the next couple of weeks.

Here's what I've settled on for the moment...

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
2 Terravore

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Darkblast
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime

4 Faithless Looting
2 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Compared to Jund I find the deck to be a little less consistently good overall, but it can have some incredibly strong plays that completely shut down any deck in the first two turns. It also has a slightly better overall match against combo, as its both faster with its disruption and provides a clock while doing so with Pyromancer. Time will tell if the deck is really any good, but I know I'm going to start dragging it out to some local events to see what happens when I'm not just testing it.

[Waikiki]

21 lands seem really low to me with 3 mox diamonds. I'd like to move that up to 23. My suggestion is to remove darkblast to the sideboard. It's an allstar vs certain decks. The other card im not certain about.

[HPB_Eggo]

21 lands seem really low to me with 3 mox diamonds. I'd like to move that up to 23. My suggestion is to remove darkblast to the sideboard. It's an allstar vs certain decks. The other card im not certain about.

I originally had 23 lands over 21. It's certainly possible that you're right - and I've had the feeling that going so low is wrong the whole time - but I haven't had any problems with it in testing. Unlike Loam - the only other deck I've ever run Diamond in - PP has four Looting. Dead Diamonds generally become active or turn into better cards very quickly.

That being said, more testing will reveal any consistency issues. I've played less than one hundred full games with this particular list, so I really don't have the sample size to comment on specific tweaking of numbers. Darkblast would certainly be the first card I'd take to the SB over another land, for basically the reasons you stated, followed closely by Maelstrom Pulse - again, it's a great card, but discard and Decay can handle a lot of what most decks do, and the biggest problem permanents that Decay can't handle are all Planeswalkers, which can be fried by Punishing Fire, trampled on by Terravore, or just rushed over by four or five tokens on the turn they come out.

[Waikiki]

After some simple theorycrafting I came to this decklist. Perhaps it could use some dark confidants instead of the loothings due to mana issues. For sure this is one of the most greedy manabases I have ever used and therefore perhaps totally unviable.

//creatures ( 12 )
4 young pyromancer
4 knight of the reliquary
4 Deathrite shaman

//spells ( 24 )
4 cabal therapy
4 lingering souls
3 Punishing fire
3 life from the loam
3 mox diamond
2 abrupt decay
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 faithless loothing

//Lands ( 24 )
3 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Gavony township
4 verdant catacombs
4 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
1 forest
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Wavannah
1 Badlands
1 scrubland

[HPB_Eggo]

Manabase for everything is in flux, tbh. It's one of the hardest things to get right in a new deck, and it requires more testing and tweaking than anything else to make it work exactly how you want/need it to.

As to the rest of the list, it actually looks pretty decent. It's possible cutting some number of KotR or other things for some number of Confidants is correct, and there might be some way to fit Stoneforge for a Jitte or somesuch in there, as well. Some particular improvements I can think of...

1) Gavony Township looks great, but I think Vault of the Archangel would suit the deck better, particularly if Dark Confidant finds its way in there. Also means you can run Thoughtseize over IoK without caring all that much.

2) LftL probably only needs to have two copies. You can move the third to a fourth Looting and I think the deck will play a bit more smooth. Could be wrong on that with KotR, but that's what I've found in the GRB testing.

3) It's possible three Wasteland is also too much. Going down to two seems not bad when you have ways to fetch both and ways to recur both. Add all of that to the fact that we're not really into mana-denial and are just going to use it to eat utility lands or, in some odd cases, keep an opponent off a third color or double black or something of that sort.

4) Should consider adding some other utility lands to work with KotR, if not MD then in the SB. Karakas and Horizon Canopy strike me as the best possible options to make it MD, while Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith, and a handful of other lands should probably land themselves in the SB, as well.

I'm going to start doing some thinking of my own on a GRBW list. Will at least share some thoughts some time in the near future, although I'm not going to have much time to test this week.

[Ingo]

The best disruptive spells to combine with pyromancer are (for me) Life from the Loam (recurring wasteland) and Punishing fire.
Loam, Wasteland, Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire are great together, as loam can recur all these pieces (PFire through Grove).
So why not a build centered on Loam, with an engine of 3-4 cyclelands, and gamble (or entomb) to fetch loam?
Gamble or Entomb also get your one-off raven's crime.
And definitely Mox Diamond because of the loam engine.

For me, the shell of this deck would be:
4 dark confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
3-4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
1 raven's crime
4 gamble

4 Barren Moor
3 Grove of the Burnwillows


This shell resembles Loampox (at least the B/G colors).
So for the rest, perhaps a disruption suit like in pox?
Young Pyromancer dodges smallpox (sac the token instead and your opponent sacks his Goyf/DRS/Delver ...), and seems very suited for a long attrition game, breaking the symmetry of poxeffects.

4 smallpox
4 inquisition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize
2 abrupt decay

4 wasteland
2 badlands
2 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 tomb of urami
2 swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[phazonmutant]

That's a really cool idea. It seems very similar to the Hoogland loam deck - maybe cut some DDs for Pyromancer? I haven't played the deck much, but it seems like it loses when it's stuck just casting Loam over and over and doing nothing, so a 2/1 that produces board presence when you Loam might be good.

[Ingo]

just casting Loam over and over and doing nothing
I wouldn't say dredging loam over and over does nothing, as its one engine that enables carddraw through cyclelands, destroys nonbasics with wasteland and assembles PFire/Grove fast. Many decks run greedy manabases with DRS, and Loam/waste Pfire/Grove really screws them over. Especially with a tutor like Gamble/entomb, getting you the card in this foursome you really need.

[uncletiggy]

Is anyone still working on this deck I've been playing it on cockatrice lately and the rug matchup seems pretty favorable the deck grinds really well terravore has been an allstar as has surgical extraction on non basics.

[The Treefolk Master]

This list got to the finals of a high level tournament in Spain:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11774&iddeck=86231

I'd add 1 Loam to the deck (maybe cut 1 Ponder?), and maybe go -1 Volcanic Island +1 Cascade Bluffs. I tried the deck yesterday vs. Jund and won 2-1. I also won 1-0 against RUG Delver.

[HPB_Eggo]

I'm still testing this off and on. Haven't deviated drastically from the straight Jund list I posted a while back without it negatively impacting the deck as a whole, so I've been sticking with that.


This list got to the finals of a high level tournament in Spain:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=86231

This list also isn't remotely similar to the deck being discussed in this thread...?

[uncletiggy]

My list is pretty similar to yours if my memory is correct -3 diamond -2 library -2 liliaba -1 pulse -1 looting +3 probe +2 lands +1 terravore +1 ravens crime +1 entomb +1 decay I've really been liking the list it feels solid but I've only gotten games in against rug delver ur delver goblins reanimator and tezzerator so there is still a lot of testing to be done

[Megadeus]

After some simple theorycrafting I came to this decklist. Perhaps it could use some dark confidants instead of the loothings due to mana issues. For sure this is one of the most greedy manabases I have ever used and therefore perhaps totally unviable.

//creatures ( 12 )
4 young pyromancer
4 knight of the reliquary
4 Deathrite shaman

//spells ( 24 )
4 cabal therapy
4 lingering souls
3 Punishing fire
3 life from the loam
3 mox diamond
2 abrupt decay
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 faithless loothing

//Lands ( 24 )
3 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Gavony township
4 verdant catacombs
4 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
1 forest
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Wavannah
1 Badlands
1 scrubland

Im not a huge fan of Pyromancer in this style of build, but this list. I may try it out.

[HPB_Eggo]

My list is pretty similar to yours if my memory is correct -3 diamond -2 library -2 liliaba -1 pulse -1 looting +3 probe +2 lands +1 terravore +1 ravens crime +1 entomb +1 decay I've really been liking the list it feels solid but I've only gotten games in against rug delver ur delver goblins reanimator and tezzerator so there is still a lot of testing to be done

I honestly think the list is just a worse version of Jund if you aren't accelerating into some stupid plays via Diamond. I can agree, though, on upping the land and Terravore count, although I never seem to be able to figure out what to cut to do so...

[uncletiggy]

I could cut probes for diamonds but the probes have proven to be really insane with cabal therapy diamond has little drawback in this deck but I really like the information I'm not playing liliana and my curve is pretty low. I'm not sure how bad diamond would cut into raven fodder but you might be right that its a worse version of jund. I feel like cabal therapy is better vs combo then hymm and terravore is usually bigger then goyf I'd be curious to find out if this isn't viable but the list is incredibly fun. I've been loving rage quits and being told to play a real deck on cockatrice its always a good feeling

[HPB_Eggo]

I could cut probes for diamonds but the probes have proven to be really insane with cabal therapy diamond has little drawback in this deck but I really like the information I'm not playing liliana and my curve is pretty low. I'm not sure how bad diamond would cut into raven fodder but you might be right that its a worse version of jund. I feel like cabal therapy is better vs combo then hymm and terravore is usually bigger then goyf I'd be curious to find out if this isn't viable but the list is incredibly fun. I've been loving rage quits and being told to play a real deck on cockatrice its always a good feeling

Thing about Diamonds is that they just win games. Being able to reliably cast Pyromancer with double Therapy on turn two is very strong. Providing more fuel for DRS/Loam is also pretty good. Probes really just help you out if you don't know what to name with Therapy and/or are against combo game one - outside of that, they provide some benefit but not enough to really be worth cutting something as explosive as Mox Diamond.

And, yeah, I get a lot of 'why are you playing this deck?' when I test online.

[uncletiggy]

Probes have also been useful in letting me loam and draw for turn later in the game when I want to find a decay and actively waste. They are something I'd like to try but they'd probably require more changes then just a straight up swap for the probes. The singlton entomb is currently what I'm testing over a ravens crime haven't seen it yet but in theory its better it grabs ancient grudge out of the board too

[Mystical_Jackass]

Why not just run Bitterblossom and Jitte's too? Instead of Knight. Always have a creature to sac with cabal, and replace itself.

I feel like ther'es too many 3 and 2 of's in the last list.

But tbh, I can't help but feel like the cantrips and countermagic of blue is hard to avoid in a deck like this, it protects and adds to the combo all at once whereas black does too but it's more of a practive approach, it doesn't stop them from Brainstorming or Topping an answer. And spashing W for mother of runes would be awesome too.

[uncletiggy]

Fundamentaly this is a green red brew if you want to play blue I think grixis lists are probably the way to go and they happen to have their own thread. blue certainlty has its advantages but this deck wants to grind out card advantage as opposed to using cantrips to develope board presence and dig up disruption. This by all accounts is a graveyard attrition deck much like aggro loam.

[uncletiggy]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Terravore

3 Faithless Looting
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Life from the Loam
1 Entomb

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Darkblast

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Raven's Crime

2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Treetop Village
1 Tranquil Thicket


SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Life from the Loam

This is my current list it's been a complete blast to play and very competitive I haven't felt dead in the water yet. The pyromancer has been the under performer of the deck but I think he still deserves the spots terravore and treetop village have been all-star at closing out games.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all,

I'm testing also a version of Pyromancer plus Punishing, and,

I do notn know if any of yoy has played the Burning Tog Archetype, but I really think this is the approach to go, with this I mean the card Nitghscape Familiar, sincerely a great card,

this card makes punishing cost 1 mana and also pyromancer.

So I really don't know if any in here has tested this, but if not it is aiite sim,ils qun error.

My list is quite similar to Burning Tog with no tog and adding also snapcasters - also cost 1.

Good luck!

[uncletiggy]

You should post your list sir I'm not familiar with burning tog and I'm skeptocal of the familiars but they do hold a bit of nostagia I remember when they first got printed

[Mortox]

Been toying around with Punishing Pyromancer lately, this is the best version I've come up with so far:


Lands 24
3 Wasteland
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Grove of the Burnwillow
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacomb
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Bloodghast

Spells 19
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Entomb
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Raven's Crime
1 Syphon Life

Planeswalkers 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Sideboard 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
3 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction


Optimally I get a T1 Veteran Explorer, T2 Cabal Ritual+flashback sac'ing the Explorer, then cast a Confidant or Pyromancer. Entomb is to fetch up Loam mostly, but can get a T1 Bloodghast if you want to start the beats early, or go for a Cabal Therapy, Raven's Crime, Darkblast, or PFire in the yard. The deck basically lives in the graveyard, but can still perform against hate thanks to the Pyromancer + Planeswalkers. In testing I've had opponents side in things like Leyline of the Void or RiP and it's not really been a problem. For that reason I prefer to leave out cards like Deathrite, Tarmgoyf, etc. as they only further restrict you to graveyard reliance. I mean ideally my opponent brings in no GY hate, but if they do I feel the current rendition can still win.

I was originally playing with Abrupt Decay maindeck but I just don't find them necessary, I can either chump opposing creatures with tokens or deal with them by other means (PFires, Darkblasts, Liliana, Garruk) and only really bring them in from the side against decks I expect to bring in Enchantments like RiP; sure if there's tons of Miracles where you play you might want some main but I haven't seen much of that deck lately. After some testing I also upped the Faithless Looting from 2, to 3, to the full 4. The card is just so insane in this deck since pitching cards to the yard is generally neutral or beneficial, and Faithless Looting also triggers dredge on each card draw which means you can get into situations where you can Darkblast or Loam 2-3 times in a single turn if necessary.

The single Garruk is sort of experimental, I don't really want to be running less than 3-ofs of anything that doesn't have manipulation from the graveyard, since ideally once I get a Loam in the yard I'll just be dredging most of the game until I win, so having random 1-ofs typically means it will just get sifted into the yard and if I have no way to take it out or cast it, it won't get played, but so far I've been pretty fortunate in drawing the Garruk early and he's been solid, can kill a Veteran Explorer or Pyromancer token to flip (if no opposing creature) and then tick up and Overrun a couple turns later, has won me quite a few games. Although eventually I'll either drop it completely, or go up to 2... maybe 3, for the aforementioned reasons of consistency for non-graveyard functional cards.

[uncletiggy]

I'm a huge advocate of the treetop villages they have been clutch I'd play them over the twin towers in a heart beat

[uncletiggy]

I need to do some testing on the matter but I'm uncertain right now if countryside crusher is a better finisher for the deck over terravore up side is he still comes down under a blood moon and rip but trample has been relevant versus balefulstrix and other chump blockers ideally a split is probably where the deck wants to be but I don't know where ill find room in the creature base its cramped enough as it is. Hopefully ill be ready for dc in time

[Troll Slayer]

TrollSlayer (3-1)
Legacy Daily #6210903 on 11/06/2013
Download a .dek file for use in Magic Online

Main Deck

60 cards

1 Badlands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
21 lands

4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
12 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
27 other spells

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Notion Thief
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
1 Punishing Fire
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique

I've been playing this list a bit lately with some success. THe basic principle is to use the creatures to protect the planeswalkers and grind wins with card advantage.

[boneclub24]

I've been having a lot of fun playing this deck online. It uses so many cards I enjoy playing I just had to try it out. Wish I had the resources right now to make it irl :cry:

// Lands
2 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou

// Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Punishing Fire
2 Raven's Crime
4 Mox Diamond

I might take out the Jitte. It doesn't really do what I thought it would do. I had it to make the smaller creatures more threatening, but I've been finding that this deck is so good at locking the game down that it really isn't even needed.

[uncletiggy]

I can't get behind using jace as a primary win con in what is likely going to be a tnn centric meta for atleast a couple months jace got way worse with his printing he may actually be a solid substitution for jace in your list, but congrats on the good showing most people have been impressed with how resilient the deck is to so many different angles of hate a singleton volrath stronghold could be something the deck is interested as well.

[Quasim0ff]

I can't get behind using jace as a primary win con in what is likely going to be a tnn centric meta for atleast a couple months jace got way worse with his printing he may actually be a solid substitution for jace in your list, but congrats on the good showing most people have been impressed with how resilient the deck is to so many different angles of hate a singleton volrath stronghold could be something the deck is interested as well.

He plays 3 Liliana of the Veil.

I doubt TNN is going to be a massacre vs. this deck.

[uncletiggy]

I certainly did not say it would be its just a fact that planeswalkers are worse now specifically jace and it was merely a suggestion to try tnn in jaces slot liliana helps but decks like bug tend to flood the board with value creature they wouldn't mind sacing to lili to keep tnn alive. I'd consider it constructive input and certainly not bashing or flaming. Im on board with any midranged controlish list around pyro and fires want to actively contribute to its development and future

[Quasim0ff]

I certainly did not say it would be its just a fact that planeswalkers are worse now specifically jace and it was merely a suggestion to try tnn in jaces slot liliana helps but decks like bug tend to flood the board with value creature they wouldn't mind sacing to lili to keep tnn alive. I'd consider it constructive input and certainly not bashing or flaming. Im on board with any midranged controlish list around pyro and fires want to actively contribute to its development and future

You play 3x Punishing fire. I am quite sure "value" creatures is one of his favorite match ups...

[uncletiggy]

So far tempo is my favorite match up my list is in jund colors tho but your comments tell me you haven't played either list and are just speculating yes small creature matchups are good but my comments and suggestions were based around tnn not dealing with the things the deck is designed to beat...

[Troll Slayer]

Shardless Bug is a very good matchup. Tempo decks are pretty even but of course with no basics sometimes the deck is vulnerable to strong wasteland / stifle draws. I haven't had to face TNN yet as I've been playing on MTGO and it isn't out yet. If it gets to be a huge part of the meta I might try something like Marsh Casualties instead of the Perish in the board.

[Troll Slayer]

Did anyone see this deck? I couldn't find a decklist for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn18oRvWmOc

[uncletiggy]

I didn't see a list but based on what I saw it appears to be a mash up of both the grixis and jund lists intuition could lead to some serious piles I hope he found room for a dark depths and a stage. If I owned blue duals I'd be looking to intuition for inevitability. From what I can assume from your list -4 strix -3 jace - 1flusterstorm -1 dismember +3 intuition +3 decay +3 confidant plus a different mana base not sure if I saw force or not but ill assume it was still in the numbers might be +/- but it feels good.

[whienot]

It's a take on this deck tech. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_pyro_loam_with_korey.html)

Spoilers: it's cool, but not very good. At least not yet.

[uncletiggy]

I think its better then all of the jank in the devolpemental section it just needs some serious tweaking the synergy is there and it has the toold to beat anything its just finding the right number of each card in the seventy five to get the job done.

[uncletiggy]

For those playing blue quiet speculation seems good with therapy and looting not to mention tutoring up grudge out of the board especially if tnn blade gets as popular as predicted.

In other news I've dropped the ravens crimes and probes upped the wasteland count to 4 and added three diamonds and a grim lavamancer the virtues ruin is now deluge as well other then that I'm really satisfied with the list I haven't gotten too many games in with the new config but I figured I'd see if I liked eggo's accelerated lines. Young pyromancer is still underperforming most wins belong to terravore he is a serious house I fell like I'm playing dredge when I cast looting and retrive loam and darkblast. Helped turn the vore into a 17/17 in two turns from a sad 1/1.

[pfiremc13]

This deck looks awesome.

@uncletiggy: Why did you cut the raven's crimes? How has darkblast been working for you? Have you considered thoughtseize in the main?

[pfiremc13]

More questions:

Other people said they liked sylvan library. Why did you not include it?

Have you been satisfied with the number of lands?

[uncletiggy]

Raven's crime was a terrible top deck a one of may return just as an entomb target. I do miss the probes honestly and think it preformed better without the diamonds with more information. I've felt very comfortable with the mana base as it sits the only spot I'd shave would be the wasteland.

Darkblast is a work horse it digs stuff up while keeping the board clear of most relevant ramp and weenies I'd never cut it from the main. Additional discard would be nice if your meta demands it -1 waste -1 lavamancer +2 thought seize in a combo heavey enviroment adding atleast one additional grudge to the board

[pfiremc13]

Thanks.

What do you think about sylvan library?

[uncletiggy]

I have not tested sylvan library the deck is already packed with virtual card advantge engines in pyromancer bob liliana loam darkblast cabal therapy and faithless looting. I love library to death play it in almost all my lists but this just isn't the home for it.