BUg Delver(Nought)

[Madmankevinx]

I was contemplating sleeving up my old RUG Delver deck (that I had a lot of fun times and reasonable success with last year) for a local event just to switch it up for a change, when I remembered an old idea I had thought to try out. I looked for a thread on anything close and found nothing so I suppose I will post the list up here and seek your input.

Creature:(12)
---------
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

Sorcery:(7)
---------
4 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder

Instant:(22)
--------
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Land:(19)
------
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

To explain it in short fashion, it's basically RUG -4 Lightning Bolt +4 Abrupt Decay, -4 Goose +4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -1 ponder and 3 Spell Pierce +4 Thoughtseize and finally -1 Chain Lightning/fire and ice/forked bolt/thought scour etc for +2 Vision Charm. I have played it in practice and it plays like a tempo deck but the Dreadnought really wins fast if resolved and protected via thoughtseize/FoW/Daze. Vision Charms act like Stifle # 5 and 6 and aside from obviously phasing the Dreadnought out in response to the trigger, can actually feed the ol' Tarmogoyf in case of a shrinking graveyard thanks to our old 1 cc Planeswalker: Mr. Deathrite. I don't auto lose to Chalice thanks to Abrupt Decay, but do need to look out for opposing AD's at my Dreadnoughts. I feel this is a potent list and obviously sideboard is dependent upon the meta. What do you all think? Do I have something here or is it too cute?

[SirTylerGalt]

You might also be interested in this list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56521

Which you can see played here:

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgstl-leg-rd-9-alex-roberts-vs-gage-bunting-6602184

The BUG version is also sometimes discussed in this thread, alongside the RUG and Grixis versions:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8964-Deck-Dreadstill-Enter-the-Fist

[Megadeus]

There also used to be some Tombstalkers in the straight UB list. Vision charm not only is a "stifle" for your dreadnought but can help fuel a T2 Tombstalker.

[HammafistRoob]

There also used to be some Tombstalkers in the straight UB list. Vision charm not only is a "stifle" for your dreadnought but can help fuel a T2 Tombstalker.

Charm also blanks Abrupt Decay, which can be huge. I would definitely add a few Tombstalkers and possibly another Charm. He is immune to Abrupt Decay, Dismember, Punishing Fire, Engineered Explosives, and other fringe stuff like Moat, Snuff Out and Repeal.

I would try -3 Goyf, -1 Clique, +2 Tombstalker, +1 Ponder, +1 Charm.

Dark Confidant is another option, but Tombstalker is better in tempo shells.

[kingtk3]

... I would definitely add a few Tombstalkers and possibly another Charm. He is immune to Abrupt Decay, Dismember, Punishing Fire, Engineered Explosives, and other fringe stuff like Moat, Snuff Out and Repeal.
...

All true except for dismember

[Poron]

You will find yourself wanting to use Stifle on other things apart from PD, so you want more Vision Charm (or less PD)

IMO, you also want definitly Snapcaster Mage to abuse of Abrupt Decay, disruption, Pierce and Stifle.

Vision Charm is also good to save your own PD from opponent's Abrupt Decay

Since it Cycles, Unearth can be also worth to test. Also, this deck is all 1/2 cc apart from Force of Will. Where are your 4 Dark Confidant?

[Pdingo]

Hei Guys

I testing a BUGnought list too;)

Here is the correct List for the Moment rightnow;)

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Disfigure
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Vision Charm
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island

SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach(Meta Slot)
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Submerge


1. Why no Delver? Because he's just bad,Rug(Burg)is playing 30 instant's and sorcery's to Flip. Noughtlists not..
2. Shaman is a lot better;) and we should Play Shaman in a BUG deck. He generate us mana for Goyfs and Bob's+DMG to or Lifegain.
3. We Need 4 Tarmogoyf's in this list because the Nought is not enough most at the Time. That means a harder Clock.
4. No BUG wihtout BoB. When Goyf and Nought get handlet, BoB make as Card advange!
5. Guys? Why a discard Main in a Aggro/Tempo Shell like nought? We should Play more Counters+Cantrips like Ponder.


Feel Free to Post

[Poron]

definitly better, but still no SnapMage which is definitly needed IMO

[HammafistRoob]

All true except for dismember

Derp, for some reason I was thinking it was -4/-4. Disregard my stupidity.

[kingtk3]

Referring to the OP, I don't like maindeck thoughtseize in a tempo shell since it effectively makes you lose tempo. I would substitute them for the fourth ponder, the third vision charm and 2 meta cards like spell pierce, disfigure or dimir charm (which I recently played in Tezzeretor: it always been active and useful).

[Pdingo]

@Poron

Why We Need a Controll Card in a Aggro/Tempo Shell?
Cant agree Snapcaster is just bad in this Deck..

The Same with Discard mainboard is maybe wrong in a Temposhell.
I think discard in the SB make a lot more since.

[Poron]

Snapcaster can be a control tool or a aggro or a tempo tool depending what it flashes back.

Snapcaster for Vision Charm saves your Dreadnought, for a sure win next turn.

Snapcaster for Abrupt Decay on a chump blocker is just aggro/tempo.

thr biggest doubt is about Deathrite Shaman and Delver. some delver can be strong in these lists, but Deathrite >>..

[Pdingo]

No Snapcaster is just bad in a nought List..
We don't Need a jumblocker like him.. Lifes are not really relevant.
We don't have a Manabase for him by only 19/20 lands..It's not a Esperblade..
Ok maybe with shaman, but We Need a Clock and not a, Land go..
I think the Situation that Snapcaster can save a Nought with a Charm is very very Rare/Random. And when you Play a fast Stiflenought, most at this Point you don't have 3 mana open^^
Delver are stronger than shaman in those lists? haha never.
Delver have to flip and with 16 Creatures+more lands they don't flip enough^^.
Shaman generate us a lot mana for cc2 Cards like BoB or a Goyf..
Shaman is the best creature at the Moment. Sry but in a BUG list, We have to Play him.

Sample:T1 Shaman, T2 Goyf maybe BoB(He have to Handle the BoB),T3 the Nought or when nought get's handlet a BoB for Card Advange;)

[Poron]

never said Delver is better than Shaman.

I'm saying that may be 3 is the right number and that in a deck with 4 Brainstorm and 2+ Ponder may be some Delver (2+) are worth.

I like at least 3 Decays anyway. Tempo or not

edit: may be I got our misunderstanding: "but Deathrite >>..." I meant that Deathrite is superior (>) to Delver

[metronome2charisma]

i have alot of experience with ALOT of bug decks including stiflenought and these are the things i like and dont like in this thread
#1 delver and deathrite are playable together.
#2 snapcaster as a one of in a deck running stifle and brainstorms isn't bad as a one of even with only 19-20 lands( this is not rug delver) and you have (or should have death rites to make 3 mana not a problem
#3 vision charm is awesome in this deck
#4 playing 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm make playing delver in a 16-19 creature shell alot easier
#5 if you're gunna play stiflenought you should be playing varolz in some number because abrupt decay is a thing and i can ell you from ALOT of personal experience that the varolz deck is WWWAAAYYY better over all and pretty much the same deck with varolz switched for delver.
#6 if you're playing a tempo shell i like hymn better than thoughtsieze becasue a turn one shaman makes turn 2 delver hymn a real thing..and belive me when i say having a deathrite and a delver on board after hymning an opponent is almost always worth 11-13 life points.
#7 sylvan library is a house
#8 bob is awesome
#9 look up other bug decks because this is not a new concept.
#10 see number 5

[Final Fortune]

Snapcaster is a mistake, half the point of aggro-control Nought.dec is that it can operate off of 2 mana

[Poron]

matter of playstile, but I understand your point.

Anyway, with such a narrow mana base, I'd surely find some slots for Gitaxian Probe

[twndomn]

matter of playstile, but I understand your point.

Anyway, with such a narrow mana base, I'd surely find some slots for Gitaxian Probe

This has nothing to do with "playstile"
You are just flat out wrong and you don't want to admit it.

1 Sylvan library is no brainer, more important than that 1 Vision Charm.

Might want to consider Misdirection in the SB. You don't want to spend 2 cards (stifle + nought), then opponent just abrupt decay it.

[Poron]

lol, opinions.

this is a three colors deck and I would never want to play it with 2 lands (that must be all duals at that point).

You lose 1 land and you start staring your 12 new dead cards? (Hymh, PD, Vision Charm)

If I was ever to play this deck it would be with 2+ Snapcaster Mage and way more lands and tools than usual.
I want Hymn, I want Abrupt Decay, I want Snapcaster Mage on Vision Charm to save my PD. (Instead than your Misdirection, I prefer this)

That's very mana intensive. In colors and quantities.
Like hell I'd play it with 2 lands.

[Poron]

12? sorry I meant 24

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn
4 Vision Charm + 4 Phyrexian Dread (alone are useless)
4 Abrupt Decay

But sure, this deck plays out well with 1-2 lands.

[Madmankevinx]

I ran this list at a dual lands prizes event on Saturday and went x-1 but lost my "in and win" round the last round of Swiss to miss out on top 4.
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

3 Ponder

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Vision Charm is amazing. Deathrite is very "meh" if you have a strong fast hand and use fetches at the right time to get around wasteland, and amazing if you don't have that option. I never saw V Clique once. Turn 2 Tombstalker is amazing off of 2 fetches and a end of turn 1 vision charm on yourself. Phyrexian Dreadnought won every game for me and Misdirections in the sideboard were stellar alongside Vision Charm to keep him on the board. This deck is a ton of fun and opening hands are very consistent with fast powerful plays in a tempo shell. Loved playing it and my own idiocy was all the kept me from going basically undefeated. Give it a try people!

[Poron]

no Delver? 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder, 29 Instant/Sorceries in total..

Why not Delver?

[Madmankevinx]

Delver doesn't really speed up my clock, and I chose DrS in its place to avoid just losing to wasteland and I like having some maindeck GY hate in my meta. DrS makes it possible to turn 2 Dreadnought/stifle and leave mana up to protect him with vision charm/spell pierce on my opponents next turn.

[Asthereal]

My UGb Tempo Dreadnought is pretty similar to the opening post:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought /12

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay /29

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs (nice to open with and surprise them with Stifle in their fetch)
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland /19

Side:
3 Nimble Mongoose (siding out Nought is tech)
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Disfigure
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize /15 <-Not really finished yet.

The deck is pretty good actually. I think I'll give it a shot at a tourney soon. :smile:

[Madmankevinx]

I really like running at least two Tombstalkers if we are running Vision Charm. Despite what most people think, running with or into Deathrite Shaman doesn't stop early 5/5 flying demons from coming out to play at all. I consistently get him out turn 2-3 no problem. Unlike Delver and Goyf, he doesn't die to Engineered Explosives/lightning Bolt/abrupt Decay/etc etc. Tombstalker can force a very awkward situation for your opponent which means increased win % in my experience so far.

[apple713]

I ran this list at a dual lands prizes event on Saturday and went x-1 but lost my "in and win" round the last round of Swiss to miss out on top 4.
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

3 Ponder

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Vision Charm is amazing. Deathrite is very "meh" if you have a strong fast hand and use fetches at the right time to get around wasteland, and amazing if you don't have that option. I never saw V Clique once. Turn 2 Tombstalker is amazing off of 2 fetches and a end of turn 1 vision charm on yourself. Phyrexian Dreadnought won every game for me and Misdirections in the sideboard were stellar alongside Vision Charm to keep him on the board. This deck is a ton of fun and opening hands are very consistent with fast powerful plays in a tempo shell. Loved playing it and my own idiocy was all the kept me from going basically undefeated. Give it a try people!

This seems like a solid list but i feel like abrupt decay just weakens the manabase. Does it really add that much to the deck?

I feel like dark confidant is an auto include in a tempo deck fo obvious reasons. Unfortunatly yall decided to add tombstalker which makes it awkward. Other suitable cards would include Snapcaster, Hymn to tourach, Liliana of the veil, and possibly sinkhole.

just saw this link from a previous post http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56521

if your going to play green play it like this. I'd -1 deaths shadow+ 1 phyrexian dreadnought -2 inquisition +1 snapcaster mage +1 abrupt decay

[Madmankevinx]

I gotta have me some Abrupt Decay in the main. Counterbalance/Chalice of the Void are still very real things in Syracuse. I really don't want to auto-lose to a damn Chalice on 1. Chalice is so good right now, that if I'm not playing it myself, I want to at least play around it.

[HammafistRoob]

I really like running at least two Tombstalkers if we are running Vision Charm. Despite what most people think, running with or into Deathrite Shaman doesn't stop early 5/5 flying demons from coming out to play at all. I consistently get him out turn 2-3 no problem. Unlike Delver and Goyf, he doesn't die to Engineered Explosives/lightning Bolt/abrupt Decay/etc etc. Tombstalker can force a very awkward situation for your opponent which means increased win % in my experience so far.

Glad you tried out the Stalkers. I was actually going to suggest Shaman instead of Delver, but I thought everyone would have an aneurysm over it. I also really feel like you want either the extra Pierce or Ponder over the Clique. Anyways, what matchups do you feel are the toughest? How does your current sideboard reflect this?

[Madmankevinx]

Combo Elves can be tricky and Maverick was surprisingly a tough matchup which is why I ran 2x Perish in the board. This deck wants to win fast and it needs a solid hand to do so, which is why I also ran 2x Misdirection in the board to protect my hand from nasty discard from jund (Thoughtseize & Hymn to Tourach would be brutal). Really depends on your meta. Don't drop Abrupt Decay because a chalice on 1 just destroys us if we can't kill it ASAP. I also ran 3x Thoughtseize in the board to shut down Combo in its tracks. Look out for Oops! All Spells since they can just win on turn zero protected by a Chancelor of the Annex in their opening hand. FoW doesn't work if we don't have a mana open when they go off!

[HammafistRoob]

Have you tested against Jund much? Seems like they could be pretty tough if they get to stable mana.

[Madmankevinx]

In the Jund match I really want to be on the play to avoid getting my hand messed with. I find it to be a managable match as long as I can land a turn 2-3 Dreadnought or Tombstalker and dodge the Hymns. A 12/12 Trampler on turn 2 is enough to win in a couple turns as long as you have a way to protect him (Vision Charm, Spell Pierce, FoW, Daze). After sideboard, I feel good since I can side in my Misdirections and Perishes.

[alohazendo]

I am glad someone else is interested in this archetype. I have been experimenting with it for a couple of months. Vision Charm's 3rd ability has bought me more than a few wins, but its interaction with Dreadnought has been the most remarkable effect. Tombstalkers were in, but in a deck where two-for-one and low cmc is the name of the game, replenishing my hand with Bob, and using him to draw out early Abrupt Decays and STP's, has been more advantageous. It does hurt on that rare occasion where I flip a FOW, but it has yet to kill me. I am counterspell heavy because my meta is combo heavy, and I like nothing better than smashing glass cannons. I let Stifle and Trickbind protect me from the evils of Wasteland when my land draws are weak, it's worked out so far.
To date, I have 3-1'ed several times, but have yet to 4-0. I fully admit that a lot of that may be due to been operator error. I would greatly appreciate other ideas.
Scratch that. Just 4-0'd in a little 12 person tournament.
This is what I am running at the moment:

Creatures

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant

Instants

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
4x Vision Charm
2x Abrupt Decay

Sorceries

3x Ponder

Land

3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
3x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island

Board

1x Wasteland
1x Misdirection
3x Flusterstorm
2x Counterspell
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Trickbind

Open to any suggestions.