Strionic Resonator

[Wanderlust]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143494&d=1372652332

I believe this is the first time in the history of the game that triggered abilities have been copy-able, so is this a whole new can of worms?

How does this card work with:

1. High Tide or Glimpse of Nature (and other instants and sorceries that create triggered abilities)
2. Hideaway lands such as Mosswort Bridge
3. Amulet of Vigor and other permanents like it (maybe I'm overthinking this one.)

I've spent quite a while trying to figure this out myself, and have some ideas, but have decided to not create any confusion by guessing incorrectly. I'll leave it to the rules gurus to elucidate.

As a side note, I think it's hilarious that this card was spoiled on the same day that MaRo wrote an article (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/254) about trying to simplify the game due to the human brain "redlining" and thus that all design/mechanics should be intuitive. I've been playing magic for 16 years and Strionic Resonator is far from intuitive to me. And I love it - I think it's a really cool card; I like being challenged and having to learn. Glad they still print stuff like this, even as it flies in the face of what they say they think they are doing.

[Barook]

How does this work with Painter's Servant? Does the new one overwrite the old one? Or do you get two colors with it? :eyebrow:

[Wanderlust]

How does this work with Painter's Servant? Does the new one overwrite the old one? Or do you get two colors with it? :eyebrow:

Painter's Servant's "As" effect is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability, so you cant copy it (or respond to it in any way once you've allowed the spell to resolve.)

[lochlan]

1. High Tide or Glimpse of Nature (and other instants and sorceries that create triggered abilities)

You cannot copy High Tide's triggered ability because it is a mana ability and therefore does not use the stack.

605.4a A triggered mana ability doesn't go on the stack, so it can't be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to.

Glimpse of Nature is more straight forward. When you have a resolved Glimpse going and cast a creature, the draw trigger goes on the stack, at which point you can copy it with Strionic Resonator for :2: and draw an additional card.


3. Amulet of Vigor and other permanents like it (maybe I'm overthinking this one.)

I agree that you may be overthinking this one :smile:

When you play a permanent that enters the battlefield tapped, Amulet of Vigor will trigger, at which point you can copy the triggered ability with Strionic Resonator for :2:. If the permanent has an activated ability of some type [edit: that taps] you can then tap the permanent and let the original trigger resolve if you wish, giving you an extra tap.

I'm not sure about the Mosswort Bridge scenario, that's a great question. You can clearly copy the EtB trigger, but I don't know what the result would be or what would happen when you activated Mosswort Bridge's second ability.

[rufus]

Along with hideaway lands, is there a generic notion of what happens with linked abilities like Colfenor's Plans and Kaho, Minamo Historian or anything that imprints or Jester's Scepter...
What happens if you copy the 'copy and exile' trigger of Spellweaver Vollute

[Julian23]

Colfenor's Plans, Kaho, Minamo Historian and Jester's Scepter work just as written on the cards in question. This means that you perform everything that's written on the cards. If you copy a triggered ability, you resolve it again resulting in double the amount of cards being removed of searched for.

Regarding Spellweaver's Volute, theres a pretty good explanation on what happens in case the enchanted Instant leaves the graveyard before the triggered ability resolves (which is the case for the original trigger as the copy generated by Strionic Resonator will exile the enchanted Instant once the copied triggered ability resolves.)

5/1/2007: Say Spellweaver Volute's ability triggers, then the enchanted instant card is exiled in response. Spellweaver Volute, which is now enchanting nothing, is put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based action. When the Volute's ability resolves, it will check its last existence on the battlefield and identify the "enchanted card" as "nothing," so no copy is created.

[Wanderlust]

Glimpse of Nature is more straight forward. When you have a resolved Glimpse going and cast a creature, the draw trigger goes on the stack, at which point you can copy it with Strionic Resonator for :2: and draw an additional card.


From this, you are saying that when copying a triggered ability, one is only copying the result and not all of the ability - so for Glimpse of Nature, you are only ever copying "draw a card" and not "whenever you cast a creature spell this turn." What in the comp rules supports this? Thanks!

How do (delayed?) triggered abilities of instants and sorceries like Glimpse of Nature work? Is there an object created by the spell resolving that sticks around somewhere? In other words, what does it really mean to
have a resolved Glimpse going from a rules perspective?

[jamis]

How does this work with an Ancestral Vision coming off suspend? Would you draw 3 or 6 cards?

[phazonmutant]

From this, you are saying that when copying a triggered ability, one is only copying the result and not all of the ability - so for Glimpse of Nature, you are only ever copying "draw a card" and not "whenever you cast a creature spell this turn." What in the comp rules supports this? Thanks!

How do (delayed?) triggered abilities of instants and sorceries like Glimpse of Nature work? Is there an object created by the spell resolving that sticks around somewhere? In other words, what does it really mean to from a rules perspective?

For the first part, the cleanest way to think about it (at least for me :tongue:) is to notice first that triggers always start with a trigger clause - some dependent clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_clause) starting with "At" or "When" or "Whenever" (which is described in the CR), separated from the independent clause by a comma. This dependent clause tells you when to put the independent clause part of the trigger on the stack. So for Glimpse, it sets up a delayed trigger "Whenever you cast a creature spell this turn, draw a card." (dependent clause in underline, independent in bold). The object that's on the stack is the independent clause - it can stand alone, just like in grammar. That is the thing that would be copied.

For intervening ifs, again the dependent triggering clause is not put on the stack, only the independent clause. The difference is that in this case it also includes an if clause. So when you resolve the entire trigger object, the game evaluates the if clause.

So when you look at the grammar of triggers, it's clear (as mud :cool:) what part is actually placed on the stack. Apologies to those who hate grammar. As far as specifics of where in the comp rules describe this grammar shit...not sure if it's explicit or just understood.


Now, your second question. There's no object per-se that sticks around for delayed triggers. Instead, think about the rules of the game as a giant knowledge base - if some particular condition is met, some set of rules apply. What delayed triggers do is basically insert a new "rule" into this knowledge base. For example, maybe right after the rule "IF the gamestate moves to Declare Attackers Step, THEN the active player chooses attackers", Glimpse inserts a new rule "IF it's turn 8 and Bob casts a creature spell, THEN put a new trigger on the stack for Bob to draw a card".
There's no particular support for that perspective in the CR, but I've been making a game engine for Magic from an artificial intelligence perspective, and this perspective has helped me understand how to design it.



How does this work with an Ancestral Vision coming off suspend? Would you draw 3 or 6 cards?

So I'm not going to copy the suspend rules in the CR here, but essentially what they say is that there's 2 triggers. One removes a time counter, and the other tells you to cast the suspended spell if there's no time counters on it. So sure, you can copy the second trigger, but the first step in casting a spell is moving it from whatever zone it's currently in to the stack. So when you resolve the copied trigger, it's like "wtf mate? What suspended spell?"
So you can only cast it once.



I'm not sure about the Mosswort Bridge scenario, that's a great question. You can clearly copy the EtB trigger, but I don't know what the result would be or what would happen when you activated Mosswort Bridge's second ability.

Pretty sure that even though the trigger says "the exiled card" (singular), it actually just refers to whatever linked objects are relevant. I can't see a reason resolving the trigger again would wipe out the previous trigger. So when you activate Mosswart Bridge, I think you can cast either and maybe both. I'm not sure which.

[Malchar]

From this, you are saying that when copying a triggered ability, one is only copying the result and not all of the ability - so for Glimpse of Nature, you are only ever copying "draw a card" and not "whenever you cast a creature spell this turn." What in the comp rules supports this? Thanks!


How does this work with an Ancestral Vision coming off suspend? Would you draw 3 or 6 cards?

In these examples, you'll get the desired result if you simply use fork.

[Wanderlust]

explanation

Thanks, this was really helpful!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Storm is a triggered ability. Welcome to the new Candelabra of Tawnos for all storm-based lists. 1/2 the storm count, 50% more fun, all for 4 colorless mana! Playable? Good at 2cmc for Ad Nauseam lists, not too painful for it's effect. Danger of Cool Things, but at the very least an option for mono-U Storm (Spring Tide versions esp.).

-ABC

[rufus]

Storm is a triggered ability. Welcome to the new Candelabra of Tawnos for all storm-based lists. 1/2 the storm count, 50% more fun, all for 4 colorless mana! Playable? Good at 2cmc for Ad Nauseam lists, not too painful for it's effect. Danger of Cool Things, but at the very least an option for mono-U Storm (Spring Tide versions esp.).

-ABC

Possibly, but Remand is -more or less- comparable and doesn't really see any play anymore.

[lochlan]

Guys, this is the card interactions and rulings forum.

On that note, does anybody know what the hideaway interaction is? (Kudos to phazonmuant for his attempt, but I'd love if somebody--CDR?--could cite the CR here.)

[FTW]

Possibly, but Remand is -more or less- comparable and doesn't really see any play anymore.

Nope.

Tendrils for 2BB storm 4. Remand for 1U. Tendrils for 2BB storm 6. Net result = 12 Tendrils for 5BBBBU.

Tendrils for 2BB storm 4. activate this for 2. Net result = 9 Tendrils for 4BB (6BB if you cast Strionic this turn)

So Strionic creates less storm but also uses less mana overall. Since mana is usually tight (except maybe in Spiral Tide), Strionic could be an upgrade, maybe making certain Doomsday piles viable.

[lochlan]

Anyone who suggests Strionic Resonator in a storm deck hasn't seriously played any storm decks. The bottleneck is almost always mana, storm count is rarely an issue.

Can we get back to talking about rules now?

[FTW]

Anyone who suggests Strionic Resonator in a storm deck hasn't seriously played any storm decks. The bottleneck is almost always mana, storm count is rarely an issue.

Exactly, the bottleneck is mana, which is why this is a huge upgrade to Remand and viability should be considered separate to whether Remand is good enough. In particular, this enables Doomsday Tendrils piles without IGG loops = no free Force of Wills for opponent!

RULES QUESTION:
Would Kaho be similar to Mosswort Bridge and be linked to all 6 cards exiled? Would you be able to cast any of the 6 upon resolution, or would you have to indicate which pile of 3 you were linking to when you pay X and activate? If Kaho only remembers the most recent 3, would you have to clearly indicate on your playmat which pile of 3 is linked and which is not, or can you just shove the cards together in Exile and leave it up to your opponent to remember the rule. Especially with Kaho, knowing which spells are viable to cast is a huge piece of information for the opponent in a stack war....

[Tylert]

Got somehow the same question with Kaho, Minamo Historian:
When it comes into play a triggered ability is put on the stack to exile cards that can be later cast.
We can obviously copy this ability.

However, can we use Kaho activated ability to cast the cards exiled by the copy of the triggerred ability?
Are the cards considered as exiled by Maho or by the resonator?

[Malchar]

Edit: Since the release of the M2014 FAQ, this interpretation is now known to be incorrect.


Got somehow the same question with Kaho, Minamo Historian:
When it comes into play a triggered ability is put on the stack to exile cards that can be later cast.
We can obviously copy this ability.

However, can we use Kaho activated ability to cast the cards exiled by the copy of the triggerred ability?
Are the cards considered as exiled by Maho or by the resonator?

The cards would not be considered to be exiled by the resonator.

For the rest of the question, I would volunteer the following interpretation:


If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.

From this, we know that Kaho's two abilities are linked abilities.


An object may have two abilities printed on it such that one of them causes actions to be taken or objects or players to be affected and the other one directly refers to those actions, objects, or players. If so, these two abilities are linked: the second refers only to actions that were taken or objects or players that were affected by the first, and not by any other ability.

The copy of the triggered ability is separate from the original triggered ability. The cards exiled by the copy of the triggered ability can not be affected by the original activated ability because those abilities are not linked.


If a pair of linked abilities are copied, those abilities will be similarly linked to one another on the object that copied them. One ability refers only to actions that were taken or objects that were affected by the other. They can't be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the copy may currently have or may have had in the past. See rule 607, "Linked Abilities."

While the premise of this rule is not satisfied by our example, it still lends some useful information. Even if you copied the triggered ability and the activated ability, those abilities would not be linked to the original versions of those abilities. The original triggered ability is linked to the original activated ability. Any copies of any abilities are not linked to the original abilities. Presumably, the only way that a copy of an ability can be linked is if both parts of the link are copied.

Conclusion: If you exile extra cards by copying the triggered ability on Kaho, those cards will not be able to be played or otherwise referenced by any objects. The same result will hold for Mosswort Bridge or any card with a similar pair of linked abilities. Even though the cards were exiled by Kaho, and Kaho's activated ability refers to "a card exiled with Kaho", there's more stuff going on in the comprehensive rules which makes it not work out. The somewhat non-intuitive nature of the ruling is a byproduct of the rules change that introduced linked abilities a few years ago.

Hopefully, Wizards will release some specific rules information about this card during the oracle update for M2014, which should answer any questions once and for all. It's always risky to guess as to the rulings for cards that haven't been released yet.

[cdr]

The M14 comp rules update will definitely address Resonator. I think it should be up this week.

[Tylert]

The M14 comp rules update will definitely address Resonator. I think it should be up this week.

You mean will ONLY address Resonator :) So much things to say about this, the rest will be negligeable :)

[cdr]

FAQ is up: https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/faq/m14

Answers a couple questions, at least.

[FTW]

The cards would not be considered to be exiled by the resonator.

For the rest of the question, I would volunteer the following interpretation:



From this, we know that Kaho's two abilities are linked abilities.



The copy of the triggered ability is separate from the original triggered ability. The cards exiled by the copy of the triggered ability can not be affected by the original activated ability because those abilities are not linked.



While the premise of this rule is not satisfied by our example, it still lends some useful information. Even if you copied the triggered ability and the activated ability, those abilities would not be linked to the original versions of those abilities. The original triggered ability is linked to the original activated ability. Any copies of any abilities are not linked to the original abilities. Presumably, the only way that a copy of an ability can be linked is if both parts of the link are copied.

Conclusion: If you exile extra cards by copying the triggered ability on Kaho, those cards will not be able to be played or otherwise referenced by any objects. The same result will hold for Mosswort Bridge or any card with a similar pair of linked abilities. Even though the cards were exiled by Kaho, and Kaho's activated ability refers to "a card exiled with Kaho", there's more stuff going on in the comprehensive rules which makes it not work out. The somewhat non-intuitive nature of the ruling is a byproduct of the rules change that introduced linked abilities a few years ago.

Hopefully, Wizards will release some specific rules information about this card during the oracle update for M2014, which should answer any questions once and for all. It's always risky to guess as to the rulings for cards that haven't been released yet.

It appears this is incorrect then? A copied triggered ability is also linked to the second ability? I think that was essentially what everyone was asking about re: Mosswort Bridge, Kaho, etc. FAQ was fairly useful. Thanks.

[rufus]

FAQ is up: https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/faq/m14

Answers a couple questions, at least.

Stupid questions:
If there are two colored cards imprinted on Chrome Mox will it tap for two mana?
If two artifacts are imprinted on Semblance Anvil will it reduce artifact ccs by :4:?
If four cards are imprinted on Spellweaver Helix will it allow casting 3 spells if it's triggered?
Do you make two piles with Mangara's Tome?
When you copy a split damage effect like Bogardan Hellkite can target the same player or creature multiple times when you change the targets for the copy? If you can target a player with damage multiple times, does that allow splitting damage between the player and planeswalker(s) that player controls?
Does anything interesting happen if Door of Destinies gets multiple creature types and a creature with all those types is cast, or if it gets the same creature type more than once?

[phazonmutant]

Stupid questions:
If there are two colored cards imprinted on Chrome Mox will it tap for two mana?
No, it states that it only taps for one mana. However, the valid colors to tap for are the union of the color identities of the exiled cards.


If two artifacts are imprinted on Semblance Anvil will it reduce artifact ccs by :4:?
No, similarly to Chrome Mox, the static ability doesn't apply twice, but the information about the imprinted card gets two answers. In this case, it's the union of their types.


If four cards are imprinted on Spellweaver Helix will it allow casting 3 spells if it's triggered?
Yes (I'm pretty sure).


Do you make two piles with Mangara's Tome?
Uh. Good question.


When you copy a split damage effect like Bogardan Hellkite can target the same player or creature multiple times when you change the targets for the copy? If you can target a player with damage multiple times, does that allow splitting damage between the player and planeswalker(s) that player controls?
From the CR:

The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on a spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). This rule applies both when choosing targets for a spell or ability and when changing targets or choosing new targets for a spell or ability
So no, you can't target a player multiple times.


Does anything interesting happen if Door of Destinies gets multiple creature types and a creature with all those types is cast, or if it gets the same creature type more than once?
I'm assuming you're talking about the ability that tells you to choose a creature type? That's not a trigger, that's a replacement effect that modifies how it enters the battlefield. Notice that there's no "At", "When", or "Whenever" at the beginning of that ability, but there is an "As".

[Malchar]

If a triggered ability is linked to a second ability, copies of that triggered ability are also linked to that second ability. If the second ability refers to "the exiled card," it refers to all cards exiled by the triggered ability and the copy. For example, if Exclusion Ritual's enters-the-battlefield ability is copied and two nonland permanents are exiled, players can't cast spells with the same name as either exiled card.

Alright so clearly my original interpretation was incorrect. Given the information in the FAQ, for Mosswort Bridge if you copy the trigger and exile two cards, you can then cast both of them with a single activation of the ability. You simply replace the words "the exiled card" with "all cards exiled".

With Kaho, Minamo Historian, if you copy the trigger, you'll be able to find up to a total of 6 cards, and the activated ability will allow you to cast any one of them.

If you copy the trigger on Mangara's Tome, you resolve the copy and the original ability separately, so you will have two different piles. You create one pile, then create another pile. As for using the activated ability, my interpretation is to replace "the top card of the exiled pile" with "the top cards of all exiled piles". Basically, you'll put the top card from each pile into your hand.

[rufus]

...

If you copy the trigger on Mangara's Tome, you resolve the copy and the original ability separately, so you will have two different piles. You create one pile, then create another pile. As for using the activated ability, my interpretation is to replace "the top card of the exiled pile" with "the top cards of all exiled piles". Basically, you'll put the top card from each pile into your hand.

Considering we're unlikely to see Strionic Resonator used with tome (or Parallel Thoughts) it's academic anyway. Though it is interesting that the original tome called for stacking the cards under itself.

Gilded Drake seems like another fun trigger to copy. Assuming you target the same creature twice, I'm not entirely sure whether it gets sacrificed or not.

[Malchar]

For Gilded Drake, let's assume that the opponent controls Scathe Zombies and Llanowar Elves. There are are few different possibilities depending on how you use the ability.

1. If you have Gilded Drake target Scathe Zombies and then copy the ability without changing the target, then the first instance of the ability will resolve as normal and Gilded Drake will be swapped with Scathe Zombies. However, when the second ability would resolve, "target creature an opponent controls" is Scathe Zombies, but you control it now. The ability won't do anything since the target is illegal, but due to the unique wording of Gilded Drake's ability, it isn't countered for having an illegal target. You don't exchange, but continue to process the ability. Gilded Drake will be sacrificed since no exchange took place for this instance of the ability.

2. If you target Scathe Zombies and then target Llanowar Elves with the copy, first you swap Gilded Drake for Scathe Zombies. Then, the second instance of the ability is on the stack targetting Llanowar Elves, which is still a legal target. Note that you control both of the Gilded Drake triggers, so "your opponent" always refers to your opponent, even though the Gilded Drake has switched owners.


When control of two permanents is exchanged, if those permanents are controlled by different players, each of those players simultaneously gains control of the permanent that was controlled by the other player. If, on the other hand, those permanents are controlled by the same player, the exchange effect does nothing.

Your opponent will swap their Gilded Drake for their own Llanowar Elves. This counts as an exchange even though it didn't really have any effect on the game. The Gilded Drake won't be sacrificed and the battlefield ends up with you controlling Scathe Zombies and the opponent controlling Gilded Drake and Llanowar Elves.

3. With Gilded Drake's ability, you can choose to target zero creatures. If you do, then any copies must have the same number of targets as well. Of course, if Gilded Drake's ability resolves with zero targets, it will be sacrificed since there's no way an exchange could have taken place as part of that ability.

[rufus]

...The ability won't do anything since the target is illegal, but due to the unique wording of Gilded Drake's ability, it isn't countered for having an illegal target. You don't exchange, but continue to process the ability. Gilded Drake will be sacrificed since no exchange took place for this instance of the ability.....

So I (the controller of the ability) can sacrifice Gilded Drake even though it's controlled by my opponent?