lack of combo placing?

[noahgs]

I am not sure where combo is going in your stores, however i feel like its taking over my meta, and wanted to discuss where we feel it is going on a more global scale.

[JanoschEausH]

In my shop theres around 50% combo. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But only S&T variants, Aluren, Dredge & Reanimator. Have never seen storm which is kinda weird for germany.

[Fatal]

Too much hate vs Storm and abyssal MU vs S&T variations

[Julian23]

For its own thread, your opening posts is really pretty shallow. No offense, but this is no chatroom.

I believe Storm Combo is one of the most potent archetypes in Legacy, yet too many people (myself included if I were to play it) only know how to play it "properly" but not extraordinary well. That + the decrease in general graveyard hate in sideboards, allowing for more dedicated anticombo cards, is keeping it down to just average showings at best.

[SaberTooth]

maybe it's because show and tell is a dumber (a really dumb) combo, that doesn't need dedication to play properly

[Julian23]

maybe it's because show and tell is a dumber (a really dumb) combo, that doesn't need dedication to play properly

And still way too many people are horrible with the deck. Last event I went to I saw a guy siding out all Show and Tells against Reanimator when in fact Reanimator must side out THEIR Show and Tells because Sneak Shows S&Ts are much better. So he got what he deserved, Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack :laugh:

[Megadeus]

I agree that the fact that at larger events there just arent enough good storm players to actually place. Locally it may be different because due to a larger amount of budget decks, it allows combo to run rampant through a meta. But easy games at your LGS do not teach a storm player how to become better... (Hence why I suck)

[noahgs]

My opening post was short because i had nothing left to say, it leaves more room for discussion if i make it less specific.

Anyhow! My meta is also around 50 percent combo, and whats interesting is that people have made attempts to play decks that are strong against it, but they never do that well. A player recently made rug delver (supposedly is strong against combo) and went 1/3, getting crushed by sneak/show, belcher, and storm, and beating goblins. the most interesting thing to me is that it seems like combo can play through any amount of hate in numbers, while sometimes the control decks cannot fight through what combo brings in (defense grid, carpet flowers, xantid swarm etc etc) I don't visit larger tournaments very often, how do most players fight combo, or is their just not as much of it? i have watched some European matches, and they are very combo heavy, and blue is not as big a thing. I wander if the NA meta and their meta clashed, who would come out on top?

PS, sneak and show sometimes DOES have to side out show and tell against reanimator, they have deathless angel and blazing archon, both of which hose SnS creatures. unless you are maining 3 plus removal, that's -2/4 show and tell, and + 2 through the breaches i believe.

[Megadeus]

I mean does that dude know how to play RUG delver properly? I know that a good Storm Player can beat RUG. Storm is just a very powerful deck.

Seems like your meta needs more chalice of the void.

[Koby]

Are we calling a Top 8 and two Top 16 finishes from SCG Philly a lack of placing? (ANT in 6th, ANT in 11th, OmniHalls in 16th)

Locally it fluctuates between 20-40% depending on the tournament/week. If combo picks up at the weekly events it's usually countered/hated out the next week to maintain at least a healthy play environment. It tends to do better and piloted by fewer at the larger (>40) events however.

[Lemnear]

Are we calling a Top 8 and two Top 16 finishes from SCG Philly a lack of placing? (ANT in 6th, ANT in 11th, OmniHalls in 16th)

Locally it fluctuates between 20-40% depending on the tournament/week. If combo picks up at the weekly events it's usually countered/hated out the next week to maintain at least a healthy play environment. It tends to do better and piloted by fewer at the larger (>40) events however.

Small remark: There was not a Single ANT in Philly T16; SCG is just too lazy/dumb to deal with subtypes of Storm.

The reason for the lack of Combo isn't the powerlevel of the deck but both, the lack of Good Players being able to Pilot Storm properly and the increasing danger of lethal misplays due to the mental Drain happening while playing 7+ rounds through hate.

[Zombie]

The 5th place Philly deck was as standard a TES build as can be, the SCG team just fucked up Storm Deck Identification 101 as usual.

EDIT: Snapcastered D:


Small remark: There was not a Single ANT in Philly T16; SCG is just too lazy/dumb to deal with subtypes of Storm.

The reason for the lack of Combo isn't the powerlevel of the deck but both, the lack of Good Players being able to Pilot Storm properly and the increasing danger of lethal misplays due to the mental Drain happening while playing 7+ rounds through hate.

The mental fatigue argument works for engine decks like Storm and Elves, but I can't see it for SnT. Though I guess Island, Ponder, Ancient Tomb, yes I have Force/Pyro, SnT, you die is too hard for some : /

[Koby]

Oops my bad, I don't look at decklists anymore, I'm too lazy to read what carbon copy from last week made it through the Grand Melee rounds. Point still stands - 3 combos in the last T16.

[noahgs]

3 is a lot for a single deck to top, that is true. on another note just a few months ago more combo decks where placing, belcher to name one. Also, i play storm a bit myself. I am by no means the best storm player around, but a lot of the time i feel like i just draw non winnable hands, and mull into an even worse situation. it is beyond me how some storm players get consistent turn 2/3 kills through hate. show and tell decks, while easy on the surface, are also easy everywhere else.. i play one myself because it works in my meta (lots of combo that folds to fow). The rug delver player was playing right, but when you don't open fow game 1, but have a good hand, and the opponent goes land grant, and reveals a winner, its going to be a rough game. on another note, what happened to dredge? i am not seeing a ton of graveyard hate (2 cards max in side decks on average). about the chalice, how do you think a chalice aggro deck would do against combo? are their any decks specifically smothering a lot of the combo decks? is turn one thoughtseize just to strong a play?, or turn 1 island for that? i might have to consider making a chalice deck for my meta lol

[HammafistRoob]

3 is a lot for a single deck to top, that is true. on another note just a few months ago more combo decks where placing, belcher to name one. Also, i play storm a bit myself. I am by no means the best storm player around, but a lot of the time i feel like i just draw non winnable hands, and mull into an even worse situation. it is beyond me how some storm players get consistent turn 2/3 kills through hate. show and tell decks, while easy on the surface, are also easy everywhere else.. i play one myself because it works in my meta (lots of combo that folds to fow). The rug delver player was playing right, but when you don't open fow game 1, but have a good hand, and the opponent goes land grant, and reveals a winner, its going to be a rough game. on another note, what happened to dredge? i am not seeing a ton of graveyard hate (2 cards max in side decks on average). about the chalice, how do you think a chalice aggro deck would do against combo? are their any decks specifically smothering a lot of the combo decks? is turn one thoughtseize just to strong a play?, or turn 1 island for that? i might have to consider making a chalice deck for my meta lol

I think LED Dredge is definitely the best deck right now. People are just idiots and lose to their own choices with it, don't realize it, and give up on the deck. Chalice is great, but chalice "stompy" decks suck ass because of major consistency issues. If you want to pack Chalice, play Lands.dec, Aggroloam, or UB Tezz. These decks have a slight shot against combo g1, and they load up their sideboard with combo hate.

[jamis]

My local meta is pretty combo lite. There's one guy who owns Elves, Painter's servant, and Burn, but I've seen him play burn more than the other two decks. I sometimes play reanimator, but usually go for some BUG variant or something with Chalice or Trinisphere. So most weeks, there's no combo, and at max there's 2 combo players, neither on S&T or Storm. The other 10-some odd players don't play any form of combo (someone's building stoneblade with RiP/Helm, but I'm not counting that).

[Tammit67]

I think LED Dredge is definitely the best deck right now. People are just idiots and lose to their own choices with it, don't realize it, and give up on the deck.

I feel the same way, although it is surprising to me even the veteran players of the archetype aren't getting there.

[thefringthing]

I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the global average Legacy metagame based just on the data from your store.

I saw a green apple once, but I didn't then conclude that all apples are green.

[noahgs]

I am not basing it on my store, I am however basing it on the Euro vs Na meta's.

[Tammit67]

I am not basing it on my store, I am however basing it on the Euro vs Na meta's.

NA Meta:

5 in top 16 of SCG Philly (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2013-06-23&end_date=2013-06-23&start=1&finish=16&exp=43&city=Philadelphia&state=PA&country=US): 2 Storm, 2 Reanimator, 1 Mono U OmniTell.

3 in top 16 of SCG Columbus (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2013-06-16&end_date=2013-06-16&start=1&finish=16&exp=43&city=Columbus&state=OH&country=US): 2 Mono U OmniTell, Elves

6 in top 16 of SCG St Louis (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2013-06-09&end_date=2013-06-09&start=1&finish=16): 2 Storm, 2 Sneak and Show, 1 Elves, 1 Reanimator

3 in top 8 of the BoM Legacy (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4923) main event: 1 Elves, 1 Mono U OmniTell, 1 Storm

6 in top 8 of LCL 2013-Mayo (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5075): 3 Storm (AnT and TES), 2 Sneak and Show, 1 Reanimator

These are from relatively larger events since March using my god awful knowledge of how to find top 8 decklists. I think combo is pretty well represented right now.

[HammafistRoob]

Ok Matt B has me curious now how many people have actually been playing Dredge lately. Does anyone know where one could find COMPLETE metagame breakdowns of larger tournaments? Please, thanks.

[Holly]

For some Dredge-Breakdown

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Dredge&format=Legacy

[Tammit67]

Ok Matt B has me curious now how many people have actually been playing Dredge lately. Does anyone know where one could find COMPLETE metagame breakdowns of larger tournaments? Please, thanks.

Without the Hatfields doing their usual thing on SCG for the complete breakdown, I'm afraid we won't have that sort of thing until someone takes up the torch. I assume that begins with emailing Jared S.

Here are the dredge results I'm privy to:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56686
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56672
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56685

and anecdotal:
I'm pretty sure I saw Parcher both at SCG Baltimore and SCG Philly. He did not top 16 either of those and if someone with as much experience as him is not breaking through...


Edit: According to Holly's post above, Europe is seeing some dredge success even if the events within 2 months aren't large

[noahgs]

Why is flayer of the hatebound used? bridge does not work with it. it seems decent, but does not help the games 2 and 3 in any way, like some of the iona, griselbrand, and sun titan builds i have seen do.

Twisted image is halarious on tireless tribe

[JanoschEausH]

I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the global average Legacy metagame based just on the data from your store.

I saw a green apple once, but I didn't then conclude that all apples are green.

Well Granny Smith always are!

[Griselpuff]

What are the Hatfields usernames on the source? Or the contact info for SCG on this topic? Because I would be totally happy to start writing those TMI's again, I found them fascinating. I'm personally very quantitatively driven and make spreadsheet analyses of the metagame, but I can only see a glimpse of the top results. I'm sure others (Feline comes to mind) would also be happy to take up the torch if the Hatfields are busy.

[thefringthing]

What are the Hatfields usernames on the source? Or the contact info for SCG on this topic? Because I would be totally happy to start writing those TMI's again, I found them fascinating. You would have to talk to SCG's editors about that, not the Hatfields.

[Tammit67]

You would have to talk to SCG's editors about that, not the Hatfields.

Contact either Cedric Phillips and/or Jared Sylva. Those two should be able to point you in the correct direction at least

[Admiral_Arzar]

To those of you that have 50% or more combo in your metagame, I would recommend you pull out an actual hate deck. I.E. not a blue deck that is decent all-around against stuff, I mean something like MUD or a Stompy Variant that packs massive amounts of combo hate. U/B/x tempo decks like the fast version of Team America (Tombstalker, Hymn, Sinkhole, etc.) are also pretty scary for combo decks.

[lordofthepit]

To those of you that have 50% or more combo in your metagame, I would recommend you pull out an actual hate deck. I.E. not a blue deck that is decent all-around against stuff, I mean something like MUD or a Stompy Variant that packs massive amounts of combo hate. U/B/x tempo decks like the fast version of Team America (Tombstalker, Hymn, Sinkhole, etc.) are also pretty scary for combo decks.

MUD and Stompy are great against Storm but blow chunks against other forms of combo.

When my metagame is over 50% combo, I go one of four ways:
- RUG Delver (default option and has game against random decks)
- Team America (also very strong against combo and tends to beat RUG Delver)
- U/B Stiflenought (when I don't give a shit about fair decks and just want to pummel combo opponents with countermagic, discard, mana disruption, and a fast clock)
- Reanimator (tends to beat other combo decks)

[spg]

I am not sure where combo is going in your stores, however i feel like its taking over my meta, and wanted to discuss where we feel it is going on a more global scale.

Tom Lapille-style gentleman's agreement.

[FTW]

I have a specific question with regards to "lack of combo placing", not as broad as the overall topic of the thread, but hopefully still on topic for the thread. If I have derailed the topic too much from the OP, I apologize. My question:

Which of the newer meta decks are destroying combo (like UWr Delver or D&T or what)? How do these specific decks "combat combo" and hold back persistent decks that can fight through a single free counter with ease? Which types of combo are they best against? Which are they worst against?

Thanks for your help

[thecrav]

Ok Matt B has me curious now how many people have actually been playing Dredge lately. Does anyone know where one could find COMPLETE metagame breakdowns of larger tournaments? Please, thanks.

How large would you consider "larger" ?

It seems to me that a TCDecks scraper wouldn't be too hard to throw together.

[HammafistRoob]

50 People or more seems sufficient. If anybody is thinking about trying to organize something let me know, I'd be more than happy to help out.