[Deck] Angel Stompy [Archive] - Page 5

Ophidian

07-16-2006, 04:46 PM

I played in a 16 person tournament yesterday AS, ended up splitting the prize for first place. (2 Plateau's each)

First off, the decklist:

10 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

4 Silver Knight
4 White Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Mother of Runes
4 Exalted Angel
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Parallax Wave
2 Disenchant

2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
4 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
4 Morningtide
3 Pariah
2 Second Sunrise

Quick and Dirty Tourney Report:

Round 1 vs Red Burn
2-0 He plays a lot of burn, I play Pro-Red dudes and rip Jitte game 2 when it counts

Round 2 vs TurboLand'ish Hybrid played by BigRedMeanie
2-1
Anytime I play against Rex, I know it's going to be a battle. He is probably the most accomplished Legacy player in DFW. He was playing a new deck this time around, and the first game he locked me down with Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm with Crucible and Exploration. The next 2 games, were pretty much won due to Morningtide.

Round 3 vs Red Burn (WTF with all the burn)
2-1
Game one I win easily
Game 2 I can't pull white mana number 2, and lose.
Game 3 Soltari Priest + Pariah + Jitte = win

Round 4 vs Survival Advantage Hybrid
We actually draw since we're both guaranteed top 8, but play it out anyways
Game 1 I stomp him.
Game 2 I'm stuck on one land, and he drops Chalice for 2, and proceeds to stomp me.
Game 3 I stomp him.

Top 8
I play Rex again, and win 2-0 (I love you Morningtide, don't know how I stole that first game though)

Top 4
My opponent leaves (it was the guy I played in round 3) so chalk one up for easy win.

Top 2
We split. It's late, it's brutally hot (we were playing in a hallway between the back of the stores in the strip mall, in Tx!?!--- don't ask)
He was playing Gobs w/white splash. If I would have had the Chrome Moxen, I had ordered earlier in the week. If they had arrived in time I probably would have played it out since I feel fairly confidant in the match, with the extra speed but oh well, I hate you UPS.

In retrospect,
The Wastelands were a metagame call that worked great last time I played, but this time-- pretty mediocre. I think they're going to get swapped for 2x Chrome Mox, and 2x Windswept Heath

Morningtide--simply amazing, can't be Pithing Needled, what more needs to be said

Mask of Memory-- I am so iffy on these, I really wanna take em out for 1x Jitte, and 1x SOFI.. because imho, Masks don't win games, where the latter do. Playtesting will have to be done.

Questions/Comments?

MasterBlaster

07-16-2006, 09:03 PM

@Ophidian- Has the low number of white sources ever been a problem for you?

Also you should probably drop the Windswept Heaths for Plains as you don't need the deck-thinning or the shuffle effect.

Ophidian

07-17-2006, 12:30 AM

@Ophidian- Has the low number of white sources ever been a problem for you?

Also you should probably drop the Windswept Heaths for Plains as you don't need the deck-thinning or the shuffle effect.

I rarely have any probs with white--- e.g. yesterday there was only 1 game where I was 1 white shy of probable victory, and I did have a Wasteland in hand, which in theory would have been either a Chrome Mox or a Heath.

Re: the heaths, I absolutely love them, I've playtested the deck with every combination of Tithe, Fetch, Mox, blah blah blah.. I think it's possible that since I only run 10 plains, the fetch thinning might help me more than decks that run more plains, but this is definitely the configuration that suits my play/mulligan style.

That being said, I am an absolute mulligan fiend with this deck.. If I'm on the draw (which is like ALWAYS since I can't win a die roll) and I'm not 80% sure I can, I always send it back, especially if I'm playing against aggro. However, if I'm playing vs. control, I know I can take my time and wait out the second plains, or creatures, or whatever.

Shriekmaw

07-17-2006, 11:14 AM

Lego

07-17-2006, 02:16 PM

I did notice that you were lucky and didn't have to play against any combo throughout the tournament. Angel Stompy has been one of the best aggro decks in the format that strives on playing other aggro and control decks. I have noticed lately that at least our metagame has featured more combo in Solidarity and Iggy Pop (Ill-Gotten Gains). I feel like the deck is a gamble if combo decks rise in popularity throughout the Legacy community.

Angel Stompy is what's called a Metagame deck. That means that it is designed for a specific type of meta. That is, anything that doesn't include combo. At times I feel like Angel Stompy can't lose to decks that want to win with creatures, and can't beat decks that don't. That's just how it goes. If your meta has a lot of aggro, and some control, you're going to kick ass with this deck. If there's some Solidarity, Iggy Pop, or other good combo, play something else.

This isn't going to change, and we can stop talking about it. There's nothing that hoses combo well enough in Mono-White such that you would want to play this in an aggro-heavy metagame. Play it in the right meta, or even get the right pairings, and you'll win. Don't, and you'll lose.

Shriekmaw

07-17-2006, 02:59 PM

I was pointing out that Angel Stompy is a metagame deck and I don't believe its as viable as it once was as the metagame has shifted slightly to more combo heavy. Having the ability to do well at tournaments is picking the right deck for the current metagame in addition to play skill. This is the very reason I was able to top 8 with Vial Affinity in Toronto because the metagame was Gro and Goblins as I planned it would be. That was my point, you don't have to jump all over me for making an statement about the metagame.

SuckerPunch

07-17-2006, 03:23 PM

I see what you are saying and I agree with you.

I think the meta may have shifted to the point that Fairie Stompy is superior to angel stompy. It's more explosive and has disruption that can slow down combo, not just creatures, and can set Chalice for 1. It's disruption elements like FoW can deal with threats other than just creatures ala. Swords.

Eldariel

07-17-2006, 03:35 PM

tivadar

07-17-2006, 03:46 PM

In my opinion, the decks are so different that there's little point in comparsion. Fact remains that Angel Stompy has an even better match-up against the aggro-decks of the metagame. However, Faerie Stompy isn't totally inequipped to deal with pretty much anything; the tools are generally there for any given match-up. I think Faerie Stompy is actually no metagame deck, appearing quite playable just about anywhere (although it can of course be geared to beat different types of decks, the version I'm presently playing is built to have a game in a varied, even random metagame, such as a GP-event).

But I think this is the wrong place to talk about Faerie Stompy. All attempts to make Angel Stompy's combo match-up better have failed thus far, but who knows; perhaps there is an Angel Stompy-build that could maintain the good aggro-match up while not scooping to combo.

Well, unless you have a combo deck that's going to win first turn (ala belcher and occassionally iggy), then I've found 4 glowrider in the board to be a suitable answer. Couple that with 2-4 Armageddons and you tend to be pretty good. As for first-second turn combo, just pray you don't see them. Unless of course you want to splash blue for FoW and meddling (nudge nudge).

Eldariel

07-17-2006, 03:52 PM

Well, I'd imagine something like Solidarity would do everything in their power (y'know, a dozen library manipulation spells to find FoWs+Remands) to keep the Glowriders from resolving before they're ready to go off (or Wish for bounce in response). From what I've experienced and heard, usually that SB hate is far from sufficient to consistently win 2 close matches in a row.

Ophidian

07-17-2006, 08:02 PM

Yes, I agree that I was lucky to not face any combo decks, but I was also fairly confidant that it would not be played by more than 1 or 2 people.

That being said, vs. Solidarity, I think Defense Grid is a great option. It can easily come out turn one. It messes not only with their combo, but their counterspells, which can enable you to play other bombs, aka 'Geddon.

As far as Iggy Pop is concerned, I have no idea.. I've never played against it, so I have no idea.

I would assume that Chalices could be an option? one for 1, and one for 0 sounds pretty good.

I still like True Believer, (even in the solidarity matchup) plus it looks pretty decent against Iggy- esp since Intuition now says Target Player again muahahahhahahhaah

Anarky87

07-17-2006, 08:47 PM

I still like True Believer, (even in the solidarity matchup) plus it looks pretty decent against Iggy- esp since Intuition now says Target Player again muahahahhahahhaah
I fail to see the relavance to that...When is the IGG player ever targeting you with Intuition? I think they'd be casting it to set up or to win.

Eldariel

07-17-2006, 08:54 PM

I fail to see the relavance to that...When is the IGG player ever targeting you with Intuition? I think they'd be casting it to set up or to win.

It needs a 'target opponent' to be legal to cast. If you have Believer out, you shut down their Intuition. That makes it slightly useful vs. Iggy-Pop, but still horrible vs. Solidarity. Man, I just wish they'd return Oaths to their former wordings so that True Believer would be Da Bomb in Vintage.

Anarky87

07-17-2006, 09:24 PM

It needs a 'target opponent' to be legal to cast. If you have Believer out, you shut down their Intuition. That makes it slightly useful vs. Iggy-Pop, but still horrible vs. Solidarity. Man, I just wish they'd return Oaths to their former wordings so that True Believer would be Da Bomb in Vintage.

Ah, I see, well then I suppose that would do some good in slowing them down, but as you said, still lacking against Solidarity.

Zilla

07-17-2006, 09:59 PM

Just a few things:

Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy are actually rather similar. The way they approach the game strategically are quite similar: control the board, keep your opponent's threats in check, resolve large beaters, make them even bigger, and win. Ideologically they are very similar. Where the difference lies is not in the overarching strategy, but how and what they are each able to control. Where Angel Stompy is much more geared towards creature control (Parallax Wave, StP), Faerie Stompy is more geared towards beating control and combo (Chalice, FoW, etc.). The choice between the two is obviously a metagame decision, but by and large, if you're comfortable playing one, you'll probably be comfortable playing the other.

As for Angel Stompy's combo matchup, it's a misconception that it folds to all combo. Certainly this is the archetype with which Angel Stompy has the most trouble in general, but certain combo (like Salvager Game, for example), isn't actually that bad for it at all. In fact, it could be considered a positive matchup. In fact, any combo deck which is highly reliant on artifacts, creatures, the graveyard, or activated abilities is a reasonably winnable one for Angel Stompy. Decks like Solidarity, which lack these weaknesses, on the other hand, are quite difficult. The sideboard can be tuned to beat even that with reasonable regularity, but it then forsakes many other questionable matchups. Generally, Angel Stompy doesn't have that big a problem with most combo, but Storm combo specifically is usually very difficult.

It's also a misconception that all attempts to improve Angel Stompy's combo matchups have failed. Phil Stolz's W/u/b Angel Stompy build has a significantly better combop matchup, thanks to cards like Brainstorm and Duress. It is weaker against aggro because of it, but the same can be said of Faerie Stompy.

TheDarkshineKnight

07-24-2006, 04:33 AM

Sooooooo, are you still considering adding Jotun Grunt for the Threshold matchup, Zilla?

tivadar

07-24-2006, 11:17 AM

I'm personally moving away from the idea primarily because Iggy seems to be gaining popularity and for that you really want something like crypt to keep them off their game. Grunt just doesn't work against them. JUST looking at threshold and solidarity, I'd take grunt over crypt, but considering the rest of the field, crypt still seems like a better choice to me.

Zilla

07-24-2006, 08:57 PM

I'm with Tivadar on this one. I do like the idea of an additional threat to take place of Crypt in the board, because it gives you extra threats to bring in against control and combo where you'd otherwise have more dead cards than cards to side in, but the simple fact is that Jotun is essentially useless against combo like IGG and Salvager Game.

MasterBlaster

08-21-2006, 08:15 PM

So, how has Jotun Grunt been in Angel Stompy?

Is it ok to mainboard a couple copies of the Grunt or is he only fit for the sideboard? Or is he complete trash in this deck?

It's been such a long time since I played this deck. I'm really outta the loop.

NANTUKO_SHADY

08-21-2006, 09:37 PM

Um.. Jotun Grunt doesn't seem that great in this deck. POSSIBlY a player in the sideboard against threshold, but not main deck for sure. This card is too situational to be maindecked.. it's only true solid use is against threshold. Against a random deck, Jotun Grunt doesn't seem optimal.

Kadaj

09-11-2006, 03:54 PM

I played 3 MD at the Mana Leak Open and they were unbelievable. Of course, I played against a Threshold/Survival variant, Haakon.Dec, and U/G/r/w Thresh along with some other random decks, so I had plenty to feed to it. Still, it was good in the other matchups I had (R/G beats, and some weird stompy variant) even though there was less to feed to it. A 4/4 for 2 that beats and blocks just about anything is pretty good, even if it occasionally only sticks around for 3 turns.

tivadar

09-21-2006, 10:09 PM

Hmm, how is this, seems rather good against iggy:

Children of Korlis w
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric C
Sacrifice Children of Korlis: You gain life equal to the life you've lost this turn.
1/1

And against the control matchup, the following would probably be rather good, things like landstill and psychatog:

Celestial Crusader 2ww
Creature - Spirit U
Flash
Split Second
Flying
Other white creatures get +1/+1.
2/2

Knights of the holy nimbus seems a hair weaker than silver knight, though it may not be bad as it at least trades with goose while attacking (assuming they can pay).

Overall, it looks as if we're getting some treats, even for the mono-white version. Can't really complain. Of course, other decks will most likely be receiving the same, this set looks rather overpowered.

throst54

09-22-2006, 04:00 AM

I wanted to know before i tried playtesting this extensively, has anyone tried playing 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Glowrider SB and 3-4 mox MD to attempt to greatly improve the combo matchup for AS?

tivadar

09-28-2006, 12:08 PM

Is there any question about adding Flagstones of Troikar in the deck as at least a 2-of? It seems an auto-include to me, as the only times when it's worse than a basic plain is when they have back to basics or bloodmoon, which hardly see any play. In addition to working well against deadguy and other land destruction (and having beautiful synergy with geddon), it can provide late game land thinning for free, essentially.

quicksilver

09-28-2006, 12:15 PM

I'd probably run it, the only real drawback I see is that essentialy if you have one out, the second one comes into play tapped.

tivadar

09-28-2006, 01:02 PM

I wanted to know before i tried playtesting this extensively, has anyone tried playing 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Glowrider SB and 3-4 mox MD to attempt to greatly improve the combo matchup for AS?

I tried it in my Wu version, and just wasn't as happy as chalice as I would have liked. Essentially, you want to chalice for either 1 or 2, the problem here is that that shuts down a metric but-ton of your cards as well. Though it's good against solidarity @ chalice = 1, glowrider is just as good and doesn't hurt you at all. A turn slower really doesn't hurt a whole lot here. If you want chalice, go the FS route and use higher CC creatures. Or you could also just use the artifact that causes all spells to cost 1 more, that actually hurts you less than chalice does in most situations.

strom

09-29-2006, 06:38 AM

Hi there!
I have some experiences with AngelStompy but I was never able to take it to a tourney. So I need some boarding advices.

First of all I think that according to Zillas current list, the 2 remaining Chrome Moxe are not the best choice:
Because of their low count, they will gain only in very few cases tempoadvantage (because you won`t have them in your opening hand or the next two turns too often).
After Turn 3 Chrome Mox acts like a basic plains with built in carddisadvantage. In my testings it happened too often, that I wished the topdecked Chrome Mox were a basic Plains (same effect, but no carddisadvantge)
So I decided to cut Chrome Mox for two more Plains.
Furthermore Disenchant main is not needed in my meta, so this is my current list:

4 Ancient Tomb
18 Plains

4 Isamaru
2 Savannah Lions
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Parallax Wave

2 Mask of Memory
3 Umezawas Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 random creature slot (currently Kami of Ancient Law or White Knight)

Sideboard (we dont have much Combo here, but Burn is very prevalent ;-))

3 Armageddon
3 Hallow (secret-anti-Burn-tech, especially Flamebreak ->Hallow means gg)
3 Pithing Needle
2 Disenchant
2 Jötun Grunt (still testing its usefulness)
2 Tormod`s Crypt

You might say that Hallow isnt needed to defeat Burn, but I want to play safe to smash them.

So, here are my questions concerning the boarding-tech:

Using my list and sideboard, what would your Boarding plans look like (I think I know what to bring in in most cases, but not always what to take out ;-)):

a.) vs. UW-Landstill
in: 2 Needle, 3 Armageddon, 2-3 Disenchant
out: 4 Mother of Runes, 2 StoP, 1 Wave

b.) vs. NQGw (they like to bring in Worship in my area) !
in: 2 Crypt, 2 Grunt, 2 Disenchant
out: ??

b2.) vs. NQGr
in: 2 Grunt, 2 Crypt
out: 2 Savannah Lion?, 2 Wave?

c.) vs. Rifter
in: 2 Disenchant, 3 Armageddon
out: ??

d.) vs. Pikula
in: 2 Needle, 2 Grunt
out: 2 Wave, 1 Sword of F/I, 1 Jitte

e.) vs. Burn
in: 2 Grunt, 3 Hallow, 2 Disenchant
out: 2 Sword of F/I, 1 random creature slot, 2 Wave? ( nice vs. Anarchy but still expensive to cast), 3 StoP

Thanks for your replies.

Elf_Ascetic

09-29-2006, 07:09 AM

c.) vs. Rifter
in: ?
out: ?

How about bringing in Armageddon? (seals game in turn 3.) You really don't want humilty against you. Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing seems like a great card also, in this matchup. Parellax Wave is almost useless. It keeps away a Dragon for 4 turns, or kills of 5 tokens, but most of the time, you're already too late anyway.

Phantom

09-29-2006, 12:13 PM

How about bringing in Armageddon? (seals game in turn 3.) You really don't want humilty against you. Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing seems like a great card also, in this matchup. Parellax Wave is almost useless. It keeps away a Dragon for 4 turns, or kills of 5 tokens, but most of the time, you're already too late anyway.

Wave can actually be suprisingly useful in the Rifter matchup by removing your own creatures if they are going to die.

Zilla

09-29-2006, 03:31 PM

A few things:

About Flagstones of Trokair: At first glance it seemed like an auto-include, at least as a one-of, but I'm not so sure. It can cost you a full turn against any deck packing Wasteland if they target Flagstones during your upkeep. The risk of that alone makes it seem like a subpar choice, especially when the deckthinning it provides is mathematically minescule.

strom:

That's basically my list now. Currently I run 3 Spectral Lynx in the Savannah Lion/spare creature slot, because it's rock solid against Thresh and any other green decks.

The Jotun Grunts are decent against Thresh, but not so hot against most other things. You put so few things into your own yard, that you can't reliably keep them on the board without your opponent's help. I'd much rather have the instant speed and lower cc of Crypt in the matchups where I need grave hate.

As for Hallow, it's a decent anti-Burn choice. So is Honorable Passage. There are any number of awesome anti-Burn cards. If they're not splashing white for Disenchant, Pariah is awesome against them because of all your Pro:Red creatures. Pariah's also good against Goblins. Another excellent choice is Aegis of Honor is also awesome against Burn. Back it with a Pro:Red creature and you can't lose.

I'll discuss the sideboard questions you asked in a bit. I need coffee.

strom

09-30-2006, 08:52 AM

That's basically my list now. Currently I run 3 Spectral Lynx in the Savannah Lion/spare creature slot, because it's rock solid against Thresh and any other green decks.

Sounds interesting. Do you think the Lynxes are strong enough even without having the chance to regenerate them?

The Jotun Grunts are decent against Thresh, but not so hot against most other things. You put so few things into your own yard, that you can't reliably keep them on the board without your opponent's help. I'd much rather have the instant speed and lower cc of Crypt in the matchups where I need grave hate.

I think the Grunts are also worth boarding vs. Burn, Solidarity and perhaps even Ale.
These decks put many cards in their (and your) graveyard in the first turns. and often can't chump the Grunt.

I'll discuss the sideboard questions you asked in a bit. I need coffee.

Thanks. I edited some boarding plans but I am still not sure what do bring in vs. NQGw!
btw: Is it correct to side out Mother of Runes vs. UW-Landstill?

tivadar

09-30-2006, 09:07 AM

A few things:

About Flagstones of Trokair: At first glance it seemed like an auto-include, at least as a one-of, but I'm not so sure. It can cost you a full turn against any deck packing Wasteland if they target Flagstones during your upkeep. The risk of that alone makes it seem like a subpar choice, especially when the deckthinning it provides is mathematically minescule.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. It costs you 1 mana for a turn, and they get card disadvantage. This should be a Good Thing for you, as long as it's not at a key moment. Against goblins, if you play troikar, they play lackey, then you try to drop silver knight, it can hurt. However, why are you not playing the plain first, then dropping troikar second turn? Sure, it costs you a mana for a turn at some point, if they're willing to lose a card to it. Knowing how to play around this, along with your opponent not knowing what you're going to play, should avoid this problem in almost all cases.

Basically, I suggested it as a two-of because you definetly don't want a situation where you have to play it and have it slow down your curve early in the game, but losing one mana late in the game is generally not as big of a deal.

Atwa

10-03-2006, 03:08 PM

Hi guys,

long time since I posted in this tread, but I've been too busy for magic in last couple of months. However, the last weekend of this month a Dutch Open will be held, guess what? They chose Legacy for a format, lucky me! [/introduction]

Now the real deal, I am planning on playing Angel Stompy, but I haven't updated my list since the release of Guildpact. This should not be a problem, since the deck's core is as strong as it gets, but I am looking for some changes.

I already figured out I want to play Jotun Grunt in the maindeck, the card is (from my experiences) a bomb. Before going any further you must know Legacy is an almost non excisting format in the Netherlands, there have been only held like 3 small touney's the last year. Because of this I am expecting a very open meta with a lot of petdecks, old extended decks, some standard ports and only a few real Legacy decks. Some thing that will show up as far as I can tell:
- Psychatog
- The Rock
- Goblins
- Treshhold
- Maddness
- Gamekeeper (the game or auriok combo)
- Zoo
- Reanimate
- Lots of other random stuff.

I am playing with the following list now:

16 plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox

4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
3 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Parallax Wave
2 Disenchant
2 mask of Memory
2 Umezuwa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB:
3 Honorable Passage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Armageddon
2 Rule of Law
2 Disenchant
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Glowrider

Some Ideas of my own:
I really want to maindeck at least 2 maybe 3 Jotun Grunt. The creature is a house against Reanimate, Iggy Pop (when setting up), Solidarity, ***** etc. I'm thinking about cutting 1x Savannah Lions, 1x Soltari Priest or maybe 1x Silver Knight, Honorable Passage makes up for some of the losses.

What about Serra Advocate? She Looks nice with here 3/3 body for only 2 mana, but the comes into play late clause makes me really wonder if I wouldn't rather have a knight.

About the sideboard: mine is really a mess (I suck at making sideboards, as well as the boarding itself). I do not want to many slots against combo, since I think there well be almost none (maybe Lukas and his German companions will bring some, but I hope whey won't). The only Control I can forsee is Psychatog, maybe some scepter-chant will show up, but I don't really care about it.

What would you suggest? The passages are keepers when I switch in the Grunts. I also don't own any Pithing Needles and I am not planning on buying any soon. Other than that I am open for every solution.

MasterBlaster

10-04-2006, 12:13 AM

That TS angel thats a 3/3 for 2 is bad. I wouldn't play it.

I would consider the following changes to your creature base.

-3 Savannah Lions
+2 Spectral Lynx
+1 Jotun Grunt

Since how you expect Gamekeeper, Rock, Threshold, and Madness the pro green ability of the Lynx might be relevant.

EDIT: A couple of Cursed Scrolls in the sideboard might come in handy if you face Rock, Landstill, Rifter, or any other controllish deck with a slow clock. They work good for me anyways.

al the great

10-04-2006, 04:39 AM

I was wondering if anyone has tried Abayences in the deck and get any results??

Zilla

10-06-2006, 04:56 PM

I'm not sure this is entirely true. It costs you 1 mana for a turn, and they get card disadvantage. This should be a Good Thing for you, as long as it's not at a key moment.
Except that if they're an even remotely decent player, it will be at a key moment. Obviously it would take an idiot to just Wasteland a Flagstones of Trokair just whenever.

But what if, say, they use it on your upkeep on turn 4 when you dropped a mysterious morph creature on turn 3? That's a full extra turn you're not attacking with an Angel, and it just so happens to be the turn they're most likely to win the game. Did it cost them card advantage? Yup. Will it win the game anyway? Probably.

This is my point about Flagstones: just like fetchlands, the thinning provided by them is so mathematically minute that it is essentially irrellevant. The card opens you up to certain kinds of hate, and in return you gain less than a 1% greater chance of a drawing a non-land card after you use it. Why would you bother?

vagus

10-07-2006, 07:04 PM

hi first at all sorry for my bad english.

I play this mana base:

10 plains
1 karakas
4 tombs
3 mox
4 thite

In my meta are only one b/w pikula. The rest is very random some, ********, one madness (g/r) some control decks (land still, scepters, mono blue), elves, one afinity, 1-3 goblins....

The main deck is the same of the post.

Another question... What do you think about put a 3ª mask of memory instead of a tithe?

al the great

10-07-2006, 09:03 PM

I'm not sure if myself would put a 3rd mask even though masks are really good draw. BUT for a Tithe I personally would put another mask in place of it. I've never really had Tithe help me that much.

I've also been trying out Abayences lately and I've been liking those.

tivadar

10-08-2006, 11:11 AM

This is my point about Flagstones: just like fetchlands, the thinning provided by them is so mathematically minute that it is essentially irrellevant. The card opens you up to certain kinds of hate, and in return you gain less than a 1% greater chance of a drawing a non-land card after you use it. Why would you bother?

I don't think the main point of it is to provide thinning, it's just a side-benefit, though, you're right, it's probably too miniscule to be worth it. However, the main point of adding the card is against land destruction decks, and when combined with the armageddons in the sideboard. The question is really whether the tempo loss of a land (at a net card advantage) is worth the land destruction boost.

Also, once again, in your example, you say that I have a facedown creature T3, and I want to morph it T4, presumably, this means I'm playing a land T4 to morph it with... The only time when this would be a problem is if I just hit the land on that draw. Otherwise, I would have played a basic plain T3, then dropped flagstones T4. Anyways, this does happen sometimes, and really, I think it's more just going back and forth when really it's probably just a meta call.

But one thing to say, smartness aside, no one is going to know exactly when to nail Flagstones. If you drop plains, flagstones, silver knight on turn 2, your opponent can either hit it turn 3 during your upkeep, to prevent jitte equip with ancient tomb, or a basic land + sofi, but they risk getting -1 card and having you play ancient tomb and sofi, or basic land and jitte. It's not a simple matter to figure out when to hit it, and I'm guessing most people will not take the risk of hitting it unless they know you're planning on using it the next turn.

Slag

10-09-2006, 06:44 AM

Hey, sorry to diverge from the discussions for a bit, but I want to use my experience from this latest duel for duals to confirm a lot of things that have been said in the thread. I took a peculiar build of angel stompy to this d4d, with maindecked true believers, no priest, and no mask. Like it has been discussed, it improved my combo matchup (immensely), but weakened my aggro matchup. I got 17th or so day one, beating goblins, thresh, iggy pop, and solidarity, but losing to thresh twice and to goblins once. Day two I snuck in some jotun grunts and squeezed in a few wins against b/w control, 4c landstill, and u/g/b thresh, with losses to 43 land (grumble), RGBSA, and 3c fish, finishing 19th. The thing that sticks out in my mind about the changes I made is that the removal of mask makes you very topdeck reliant, in a deck where topdecks can be iffy. It came to the point where I started keeping hands only if I thought they could win me the game. So, like I said, nothing really new, I just wanted to confirm what has been said about things like mask and combo hate main.

Slag

10-09-2006, 06:45 AM

Atwa

10-17-2006, 09:04 AM

I also dislike the inclusion of Flagstones. Surely, it is almost as a reanimating Plains, but it is only really usefull when playing an Armageddon. In the other cases I'd like to be as Wasteland-proof as possible. We are playing an aggrodeck, so the delay from having a Flagstones wasted can really hurt us.

This is the list I am currently playing:

16 plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox

4 Mother of Runes
4 Exalted Angel
4 Silver Knight
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Soltary Priest
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Isamaru, hound of Konda

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Parallax Wave
2 Disenchant
2 Umezuwa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Mask of Memory

Side:
3 Honorable Passage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rule of Law
2 Disenchant
2 Armageddon
2 Glowrider
1 Jotun Grunt

The changes from the last list really helps against random decks (Life from the Loam, Reanimator, Maddness) as well as the matchup against Treshhold.

What about Angel's Grace in the sideboard? It looks like it really has potential. Specially against Solidarity it can really help, since 80% of the time they combo in response to lethal combat damage.

I've also been thinking about Children of Korlis, but discarded the idea. It can protect you from a alpha strike or some combo deck running Grapeshot, but it doesn't do that much overal.

Bongo

10-30-2006, 04:25 AM

I've been tinkering with AS a little bit. The idea is very simple: I want to support Jotun Grunt better, which is a house in almost every matchup.

Lately, SoFI hasn't been that amazing for me. Jitte actually does almost everything you need while being a mana cheaper (which is huge). So I dropped SoFI and added another Jitte and Mask of Memory.
I really like Mask because it provides much needed card-selection and feeds the Grunt nicely. My current maindeck:

18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Mother of Runes
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Parallax Wave
3 Mask of Memory
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Disenchant/Pithing Needle

I'm still debating if Disenchant is better than Pithing Needle. In the current metagame, which do you think is better?
Also, what do you think about the maindeck Grunt/Mask configuration?

tivadar

10-30-2006, 07:28 AM

I've been tinkering with AS a little bit. The idea is very simple: I want to support Jotun Grunt better, which is a house in almost every matchup.

If you truly want to support grunt better, add fetchlands to put something in your graveyard. I realize I've made this argument before, and I agree, for just thinning purposes, they're pointless. But the fact is that grunt requires a heavy graveyard committal if you want him to attack more than once. One good way to help with this is putting cards in the graveyard yourself. Fetchlands do this without any mess or worry.

EDIT: Note, I'm not sure I agree with actually trying to support grunt this way maindeck. I honestly think he's better in the board if at all. But if you are trying to support grunt, then I think fetches are the way to go.

Bongo

10-30-2006, 12:23 PM

I honestly think he's better in the board if at all.

Why do you think Jotun Grunt is better in the sideboard?
Against Gro, Deadguy, Loamdecks and graveyard based strategies, he's phenomenal. Even against Goblins Grunt is not bad.

I'm running Grunt in the Savannah Lion's spot right now, and I think Grunt is a better threat by far than Lions.

I also thought about Fetches, but I'm not sure yet if the lifeloss is worth just for the Grunt support.

midnightAce

10-30-2006, 02:29 PM

The life loss should be minimal, seeing that the deck has 7 main deck life gain abilities.

As for supporting the Grunt, I don't think Mono White AS is where it belongs. Instead, it seem to sit well in a red splashed AS. The main deck burns such as Bolts, Helixs, and mana fixers such as Tithe are great Grunt food. I might even go as far as taking out the Mother of Ruins in a Wr AS, and improve its clock with more burns.

The ability to shuffle the deck with fetch and Tithe while returning the burn spells back into the deck and support Grunt seem quite good. Thoughts?

Zilla

10-30-2006, 06:04 PM

al the great

10-30-2006, 06:26 PM

If anyone can test it with the Serra Avengers let us know the results. Thanks.

tivadar

10-31-2006, 11:20 AM

I tested maindeck Grunt and my experience with it was pretty poor. Even against Thresh, it was often dead for me. Getting an early game threat up and running for this deck is essentially your first priority, and far too often, Grunt would spend the first few turns just taking up space in my hand. As a late game threat it can be a real house, but if it's in the opening grip it's often flat-out terrible. An extra Mask would help in this regard, but even then, the deck runs so few instants that Jotun is very very rarely a viable play before turn 4. And if you're going to wait that long, why wouldn't you just play a non-conditional threat that costs more, you know?

I agree with everything here. I think grunt MB works a lot better in splashes, where BS + fetches at least gives you some early graveyard cards in order to support grunt. Sure, against thresh he's not bad, but still, played early, he sucks, as thresh will just wait to hit their threshold if they don't have any removal, meaning you'll get at most 1 or 2 attacks out of grunt before you're forced to discard him. Keep in mind, mask only puts an extra card in the graveyard each turn, grunts upkeep is much harder to support. If you have to wait to turn 3-4 to cast it anyways, I'd go with commander eesha or some other jank over grunt, and we all know this generally doesn't work so well

If you are going to try and make it work, I'd agree that you probably want to run Fetches or Tithes to give it a bit more consistency. I could see dropping the 2 Disenchants and a Plains or two for 3-4 Tithes, particularly since you've dropped Lions, meaning less first turn plays, meaning Tithe will be a hit to tempo less often.

Tithe is an interesting option as well. But are we really doing all this just to support grunt? Just seems like a bad move, though I think Godzilla agrees here. But definetly, if you're running grunt, I'd add in tithes as well to support him.

Another option to try, particularly if you're going the 3 Mask route, might be -3 Jotun Grunt, -2 Plains, -2 Disenchant, +3 Aether Vial, +4 Serra Avenger. I've been meaning to try this combo, but I haven't had a lot of time for playtesting lately. I've always argued against Vial in the past, and I'm still wary of it, but it makes for a hell of a combo with Serra Avenger, and with the change to the mana curve in your creature-base, it may be viable. Further, Avenger's evasion makes it insanely strong with Mask of memory, and its Vigilance means you can get twice as many Jitte counters on it, once during your turn, once during theirs (assuming they attack). As a threat, Avenger fits the deck's strategy perfectly, so I think it bears testing.

Here's my only problem with that. Yeah, this build sounds moderately better against random aggro (though possibly worse against goblins), but how does it affect the thresh matchup? My guess is the impact is highly negative. You've slowed down your early aggro in favor of more consistent non-counterable aggro. At least previously with lions and hounds you had a shot at racing solidarity/iggy, now what? If you could vial out meddling, then maybe, but you're mono-white, so that won't work. I suppose you could vial out true believer in games 2/3 to counter their freezes (does this actually work, I think it does...), but still, that's a rather weak answer overall, and many times they're going to go off beforehand anyways, as now you can't play that believer until turn 3 with vial. In addition, vial has natural anti-synergy with exalted...

midnightAce

10-31-2006, 05:01 PM

Edited, cuz I'm dumb like that. "Resolution: illegal target" > me.

I tested a few games with the red splash main deck 10 burn spells and 3 Grunts, (4 Bolts, 4 Helixes and 2 Fireblasts), it worked out decent enough, but the list is rough and a lot of changes are taking place. Between the fetch and the Tithe, supporting 2 Fireblast was no problem.

In my testing, the Wr version supporting the Grunt does tend to have a favourable matchup against Threshold, simply because first strike + burn makes Thresh think twice about attacking and blocking, and the Grunt is a must deal, without threshold, you can easiely deal with the critters with burn. (Everything is in Bolt range, including pre-thresholded Enforcer, definitely a plus.)

Goblin Snowman

10-31-2006, 06:40 PM

[QUOTE=midnightAce;96683]I don't think so. Target is chosen upon the annoucement of the Freeze, when you finally get priority, the Freeze is already on stack, targeting you.
QUOTE]

Wrong. By this logic, Gilded Light does not stop Tendrils, and you can't prevent Lightning Bolt with Mother of Runes. Or Vial in Crystelline Sliver in response to STP.

midnightAce

10-31-2006, 06:55 PM

My bad, target is checked again upon resolution, I forgot, focused too much on making the player an illegal target for the spell to begin with.

I do have some preliminary testing result with the combo Zilla described above. The thing is, consider the following sequence:

Turn 1, Plain, Vial
Turn 2, Plain, counter +1, Silver Knight (or other 2 cc critter)
Turn 3, Plain, counter +1, SoFI, eoot, Vial in Serra.

So at best, Serra is coming in on turn 3. Does the 3 Vials warrant the inclusion just to speed up the Serra for one turn? (Serra can be hard cast on turn 4.) That's the question that's been bugging me when I was testing with the Vial config. The other negative aspect of the Vial is of course, drawing it late game is very horrible. My hand is almost empty, only things left in my hand are usually a second copy of Jitte, StP or a Wave. I pitch Vial to Mask more than I cast it, so I'm not really liking it that much.

On to the topic of the general deck configuration:

There are a couple of cards I'm currently considering:

a) Charge Across the Araba - 4W Instant
Sweep — Return any number of Plains you control to their owner’s hand. Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn for each Plains returned this way.

Note: You don't return the Plains until the resolution, so there is no tempo loss if it's countered.

2x of these guys will act as an awsome finisher, breaking the ground war against any aggro deck.

b) Winter Orb, fitting this would require complete retool of the deck's mana base. I'm not sure if it's worth the inclusion, but it does punish board control decks such as Rifter.

Thoughts?

Zilla

10-31-2006, 08:55 PM

Here's my only problem with that. Yeah, this build sounds moderately better against random aggro (though possibly worse against goblins), but how does it affect the thresh matchup?
How does making your creatures uncounterable affect the Thresh matchup? Fairly well, I'd imagine. Savannah Lion is already pretty terrible against them, so the trade for Avenger may not be all that bad.

In addition, vial has natural anti-synergy with exalted...
This isn't technically accurate. "Anti-synergy" applies to two or more cards which actually have a negative impact in conjunction with one another. Planar Void and Life from the Loam have anti-synergy, for example. Vial and Angel simply don't work very well. You can't Vial out a Swords to Plowshares either, but that doesn't mean they have anti-synergy. The bottom line is that the deck simply needs enough creatures (not including Angel) to support Vial. Can 18 creatures support 3 Vials? Maybem I dunno. It needs testing.

Does the 3 Vials warrant the inclusion just to speed up the Serra for one turn?
If that were the only benefit of Vial, my answer would be no. Given that Vial can also help your tempo, gives you some control over the stack, let's you play interesting combat tricks, and makes your threats uncounterable against control, my answer would be maybe.

Like I said, it needs some pretty thorough testing. I agree that Vial straight up sucks ass in the lategame, but with 3 Masks, you may be able to mitigate that problem some.

tivadar

10-31-2006, 09:05 PM

How does making your creatures uncounterable affect the Thresh matchup? Fairly well, I'd imagine. Savannah Lion is already pretty terrible against them, so the trade for Avenger may not be all that bad.

Thwap, sorry, I actually meant combo, not thresh. Dunno what made me type that. Nods, my point was actually that yes, this will probably improve the matchup against control. Currently thresh is probably close to 50/50. However, this makes the combo matchup much worse unless you maindeck true believer IMHO and even then it may still not be that good.

Zilla

10-31-2006, 09:15 PM

Thwap, sorry, I actually meant combo, not thresh. Dunno what made me type that. Nods, my point was actually that yes, this will probably improve the matchup against control. Currently thresh is probably close to 50/50. However, this makes the combo matchup much worse unless you maindeck true believer IMHO and even then it may still not be that good.
Why does Believe need to be maindecked? Game 1 sucks against combo no matter how you slice it. True Believer and/or Glowrider from the board is reasonably solid, and Vial doesn't impede that strategy, it helps it.

Slag

10-31-2006, 09:30 PM

I've actually had a lot of success against combo with maindecked true believers. I suppose it comes down to whether you feel you can sweep game two and three with your hate from the board, and the quality of the aggro decks you may face.

tivadar

11-01-2006, 08:54 AM

Why does Believe need to be maindecked? Game 1 sucks against combo no matter how you slice it. True Believer and/or Glowrider from the board is reasonably solid, and Vial doesn't impede that strategy, it helps it.

Vial can slow down true believer/glowrider coming out. I'm assuming you have to drop a land in order to add vial, and vialing in TB/GR is going to take you an extra turn. In addition, we've been talking about dropping savannah lions/isamaru in this build, which slows you down even more. It's not a huge disadvantage, but it's enough that any small chance you had of winning G1 vs combo is probably gone now.

Of course, you gain the advantage of being able to vial in TB to effectively counter their freeze/tendrils G2/3. With true believer, this is a big enough benefit that it may be worth it, but I think it would be "even more worth it" shall we say if TB found a maindeck spot in this build. Glowrider really doesn't gain any advantage from being vialable (outside of the non-counterability, which helps against combo, but the earliest you're vialing in Glowrider is now T4).

midnightAce

11-01-2006, 02:13 PM

If that were the only benefit of Vial, my answer would be no. Given that Vial can also help your tempo, gives you some control over the stack, let's you play interesting combat tricks, and makes your threats uncounterable against control, my answer would be maybe.

Like I said, it needs some pretty thorough testing. I agree that Vial straight up sucks ass in the lategame, but with 3 Masks, you may be able to mitigate that problem some.

I agree, which brings me to:

Glowrider really doesn't gain any advantage from being vialable (outside of the non-counterability, which helps against combo, but the earliest you're vialing in Glowrider is now T4).

That's looking at it pretty narrowly. Unlike Serra Avanger who can't be cast on turn 1, 2, 3, you are perfectly capable of casting Glowrider/True Believer on turn 2, which with any luck, will resolve. The inclusion of Vial does not slow down any of your fundamental game plan.

Keep Vial set at 2 combos very well with TB, as any bounce spell Soliarity Wish for will work much harder to get rid of that TB. I know I seem to swing back and forth in my post towards Vial, but only because it's such a love/hate card for the deck.

Eldariel

11-01-2006, 04:57 PM

Vial helps those denial strategies immensely. What does combo do against it? Bounce! What does Vial do? Puts guys back at instant speed for no cost uncounterably! Basically, combo-decks will need 2 counters when going off with a denial-guy and a Vial at X both in play. You can go turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Glowrider (off a Mox or a Tomb) or turn 2 Believer. And against Solidarity, if you have a turn 1 Vial, you've got enough time to get to 3 counters with Vial before they go off (since they don't go off before your turn 4, and they can't go off in your upkeep, so you get to add a counter, giving you at least an interrupt).

But yea, if you want a decent combo-MU, you'll want some MD-hate against it as odds will be heavily against you with autoloss game 1 and game 2 and 3 slightly in your favour. As I've probably said before, I much prefer Glowrider to True Believer as it actually hampers them from going off, not only hurts their finisher. Of course, against Tendrils-decks, Believer is very much better as they don't draw lots, or stack their library, they just tutor for what they need and try to win off it.

tivadar

11-02-2006, 12:26 PM

Ok, I hadn't considered the bounce -> back into play at instant speed factor here. I think you're right, vial will improve the G2 + G3 game vs. most combo out there. However, I'll still argue it hurts the G1 matchup unless you mainboard hate. Vial slows decks down, as it's a turn behind the manacurve, and means you can't play a threat first turn. I think if you're adding vial, then MD true believer or glowrider is the way to go. Probably the first as the second hurts you against other aggro.

midnightAce

11-02-2006, 05:13 PM

The "Vial slow down" factor here only really affects the clock on a combo deck.

Against other aggro decks, I believe such tempo loss is negligent, even more so when you pull off combat tricks with first strikers at instant speed. Vial is also a must counter for Threshold, especially UGr varients, as Silver Knights owns all of the deck's removal spells. Once he comes down, he sticks around, period.

And by maindeck TB w/ Vial, we have effectively improved both our combo and Deadguy matchup. Note that it is entirely possible that with the right hand, you can completely ignore the Vial in your opening hand and feed it to Mask later, and play it as though you mulled to 6. In that case, you suffer no temop advantage, the Vial can act as a counterbait on turn 3 instead.

Bane of the Living

11-04-2006, 01:39 PM

It seems like all this anti combo talk has come up again so what about Armageddon. I know its turn 4 without Mox or Tomb but its so good, and now you have flagstones.

valor

11-04-2006, 02:00 PM

It seems like all this anti combo talk has come up again so what about Armageddon. I know its turn 4 without Mox or Tomb but its so good, and now you have flagstones.

I have always ran 2 Geddons and a few Flagstones when testing this deck and it can be huge, especially when it comes out early. I'd cut down on Parallax Wave and maybe something else to fit at least 2 Geddon in.

For Vial, I agree that the slowdown only matters against combo. In which case, you now have geddons coming out early, which has nice synergy with Vial anyhow. And if you see enough combo where it makes that much difference why are you playing AS?

Basically what I'm saying is Geddon+Vial, at least to me, seems to be a very good idea to fix this decks problems right now.

As a side not I've notices that basically every deck with creatures has this Vial discussion, and although no deck can abuse it like Goblins this is probably the next best thing as far as Vial goes, the combat tricks with this and Silver Knight, this and even Serra Avenger (another card I love in this deck) and the interaction with True Believer are too good to ignore.

al the great

11-04-2006, 02:39 PM

valor

11-04-2006, 02:50 PM

I do like putting in 2 Flags in the deck even though they haven't shown any major differences yet.

As for geddons it's a great idea to get 2 Waves out for it but i really need to sit down and test that. I've had Waves absolutely save my game but also hurt my game at times too. I definitely will try 2 geddons and see how that runs.

I completely agree there is no real reason not to run Flags, I honestly could care less if the waste one, thats a minor minor setback, as opposted to them wasting a Tomb, plus its CA, and it has synergy wtih Geddon if you use that.

As far a Geddon vs. Wave its really dependent on what your going to be playing against, I know for me I dont face that much aggro which is why I would use Geddon over some waves, (not really the best place to run AS because theres no Gobs, no Wastes to make dead, etc) but Geddon is a major help in the combo matchup and slightly less so but still awesome in the control match (just be careful when using it vs. Thresh, it builds up a grave nicely).

Zilla

11-05-2006, 03:52 AM

As far a Geddon vs. Wave its really dependent on what your going to be playing against, I know for me I dont face that much aggro...
Then why are you playing Angel Stompy? It's a metagame deck, and the metagame it beats is essentially aggro. Its combo and control matchups are (mostly) somewhere between not very good and terrible. If you're seeing mostly non-aggro decks, shouldn't you be playing a deck more suited to the field?

valor

11-05-2006, 03:26 PM

Then why are you playing Angel Stompy? It's a metagame deck, and the metagame it beats is essentially aggro. Its combo and control matchups are (mostly) somewhere between not very good and terrible. If you're seeing mostly non-aggro decks, shouldn't you be playing a deck more suited to the field?

I dont run AS, I guess I should have made that more clear in my post. Its just a deck that I would love to be running if I had the chance.
I actually play U/W/b fish for the same reason I dont play AS.

Zilla

11-06-2006, 08:09 PM

I dont run AS, I guess I should have made that more clear in my post. Its just a deck that I would love to be running if I had the chance.
I actually play U/W/b fish for the same reason I dont play AS.
This sort of delegitimizes the whole Armageddon vs. Wave argument then. It's an argument which has been made several times before, in fact. But when it comes right down to it, Wave is by far and away one of the best cards in the deck, being very strong against aggro and powerful against control as well.

Geddon is much narrower. It tends to be absolutely awful against aggro, and while it's quite good against some combo and control, it's useless against others. For the matchups where it's strong, it's very strong, so I definitely endorse its inclusion in the sideboard, but it simply doesn't belong in the maindeck. If you're in a meta where Armageddon belongs in the main, you're in a meta where you shouldn't be playing Angel Stompy.

valor

11-06-2006, 11:18 PM

This sort of delegitimizes the whole Armageddon vs. Wave argument then. It's an argument which has been made several times before, in fact. But when it comes right down to it, Wave is by far and away one of the best cards in the deck, being very strong against aggro and powerful against control as well.

Geddon is much narrower. It tends to be absolutely awful against aggro, and while it's quite good against some combo and control, it's useless against others. For the matchups where it's strong, it's very strong, so I definitely endorse its inclusion in the sideboard, but it simply doesn't belong in the maindeck. If you're in a meta where Armageddon belongs in the main, you're in a meta where you shouldn't be playing Angel Stompy.

I would tend to agree with you, my one question being that if Wave is one of the most powerful cards in the deck, but yet it didn't make the W/b/u AS decklist in maindeck or SB?
I'm not sure if its ok to talk about that variant in this thread or if there's another thread for that but it would seem as though it would make the maindeck over some of the cards there, some of which are not very helpful in the aggro matchup (ex. Duress). I know that deck is designed for a different strategy than the Mono white, so I'm assuming thats the reasoning.
Most of the time though I would have to say that Geddon is an absolute must in the board because it can absolutely destroy certain decks. The main reason I would consider mainboarding it now however is the printing of Flagstones. I had read an article somewhere talking about how including 1 of some powerful cards in your deck could actually be a beneficial strategy (knowing theres a Geddon in your deck someone will play around it, much like bluffing a Daze), what are your thoughts on dropping down to 3 wave, 1 Geddon and ditching a few Plains for Flagstones (even seeing a Flagstones will make someone assume Geddon). I read the debate a few pages back regarding Flagstones vulnerability but the point that was not brought up is that the deck that runs Wastes (Goblins) has a horrible matchup vs. this deck and personally if I were up against Goblins I would rather they Waste my Flagstones than a Tomb, that slowdown would be much worse imo.

tivadar

11-08-2006, 01:16 PM

I would tend to agree with you, my one question being that if Wave is one of the most powerful cards in the deck, but yet it didn't make the W/b/u AS decklist in maindeck or SB?

The reasoning for not having Wave is that Wave is there to deal with control and aggro. This deck already has a good aggro matchup, but is weak against control. Its combo matchup is bad, but at least it can occassionaly race. Duress replaces wave in 3CAS because it deals with control and combo. 3CAS is also slower than mono, so it really can't race combo. Wave is needed here as a manner to deal with control. If it dealt with control and combo, that'd be awesome. Unfortunately it handles control and aggro.

I read the debate a few pages back regarding Flagstones vulnerability but the point that was not brought up is that the deck that runs Wastes (Goblins) has a horrible matchup vs. this deck and personally if I were up against Goblins I would rather they Waste my Flagstones than a Tomb, that slowdown would be much worse imo.

I completely agree here. Even against certain control matchups, flagstones can shine (pox and confidant variants). Of course, I was also arguing for the inclusion of flagstones a couple pages back as well... But anyways, I had success with flagstones in my Wu deck at TMC last weekend and I think it's going to be an autoinclude for me as well.

Now the discussion really becomes if armageddon deserves a maindeck slot. I think it's wrong to argue that this deck is tuned for aggro, so why are you playing it in a meta with combo and control. The fact is, you're always going to see some random jank, and you'll almost always see a bit of everything. Having 1-2 Geddons maindeck to make your control matchup go from horrible to decent doesn't seem to be a terrible idea. If you go the vial route, I definetly think geddon deserves a place. Another option, btw, is cataclysm, which is good against combo, control AND goblins (let's see them try to survive off of one creature...). At least with cataclysm you don't completely kill the aggro matchup either.

midnightAce

11-08-2006, 04:31 PM

Catalysm is indeed much better than Geddon.

So now the question would be, how would the deck list look like? We want to jam in Vial, Avanger (may be?), TB (main?), Catalysm (replacing 2 Wave?).

Anybody else finding that they tend to side out Mother of Ruins some what? I'm actually considering cutting MoR from main, any thoughts on that?

tivadar

11-08-2006, 04:56 PM

I know 2/3 color tends to cut her as well. She's expendable I'd say, but I sure do miss her in the Grow matchup... There cutting lions/hounds seems like the right move.

Personally, I'd stay away from avenger. Essentially, it's a combo card with vial, and the earliest you're getting it into play with vial is T3. Why not just up the grunt count and play that either T3 with vial or T2 without it... You don't want the build to become dependant on vial. True believer, on the other hand, is good by itself, and amazing with vial. I think it deserves a spot main in any vial build.

Will edit this post with what I think a vial build should/would look like. But at what point does this simply become white weenie? When is having angel more of a disadvantage because of the high CC?

valor

11-08-2006, 05:17 PM

Will edit this post with what I think a vial build should/would look like. But at what point does this simply become white weenie? When is having angel more of a disadvantage because of the high CC?

Imo this is WW. It;s just tuned for the format. With Chrome and Tomb Angel will never be a disadvantage imo, once one comes out its basically a win, especially with the equipment. The mana costs arent too high for this deck because its designed to be able to pump out an equipped Angel by turn 3, if all goes well.
As far as Cataclysm goes that is the card we're looking for. It basically does what Wave does and what Geddon does, only very slightly worse, for the same mana, and an added benefit of destroying Artifact based decks. I would replace 2 Waves with this if I were to play the deck. I agree about randomness as well. This format, at least where I play, is mostly randomness still.

True Believe mainboard is probably not the best thing to run, I would simply SB it against combo, because vs Aggro it is very weak.
As for Vial, most of the CCs in the deck work with it, and I would still stand by its usefulness, and I would still include Avenger, despite the drawback. Its better than Soltari Priest imo. Vigilance is underestimated in this format.
Never cut Mom. If I were to cut a one drop it would be a Lion or an Isamaru way before a Mom, they'll save you the game, and can also win it for you.

TheDrunkDwarf

11-13-2006, 02:57 PM

valor

11-13-2006, 03:06 PM

If you decided to run a vial version of the deck, would spashing blue and abusing vial with standstill be beneficial?

Also, standstill might be nice with the suspend mechanic. I havnt gone through all the cards yet, but if the suspended card is worth breaking your own standstill it might be worth it...

Even if were talking blue, the only 2 suspend cards that would even be considered are Ancestra and Balance. Balance is really not good for you and is suspend 6 so that doesnt work. Ancestral isn't needed with Standstill and would cancel itself out if it broke your own.
Standstill is good on its own, but imo not in this format at this time. If it were to be used, this isn't the deck. This is essentially a White Weenie deck, and needs to be applying pressure, not playing a mostly reactive card, and when they break it into some creatures instead of some counters, Standstill really isnt that great.

Citrus-God

12-01-2006, 12:18 AM

I think Catalysm is a great idea for this deck. It makes Isamaru much more useful in multiples, and equipment a pain to deal with.

Citrus-God

12-02-2006, 03:51 PM

NANTUKO_SHADY

12-02-2006, 09:18 PM

Do you guys think it's still viable right now? Gro, Goblins, Affinity, and much more have been making huge appearences, and taking down tournaments.

Also,

City of Traitors or Chrome Mox? I like Chrome Mox because it helps answer a first turn Lackey much better, and synergizes with Geddon' so well. City of Traitors helps you accelerate into 4-5 mana much better than Chrome Mox can, and makes your Equipment and Parallax Waves awesome, and it doesnt give you a card disadvantage.

I believe that Angel Stompy could make a small uprising due to recent tournament results and T8's, and the fact that Angel Stompy has decresed greatly in popularity, thus making players not really expect the deck. For those interested in possibly running Angel Stompy, I highly suggest checking out LegacyPlayer0's thread on his "Bruised Weenie Deck" A.K.A U/W/B Angel Stompy list. Anyways, on to the subject of Chrome Mox and City of Traitors. I am definitely in favor of Chrome Mox. I personally believe that it fixes early color issues, and like Anti-American said, it works well with Geddon. City of Traitors does pump out multiple colorless early, but that almost negates any chance of dropping a turn one Angel, or having a turn 1 answer to any threat, mainly Goblin Lackey. I can see the arguements in favor of each card, but I am almost certain that Chromes Mox is the better choice.

Citrus-God

12-03-2006, 10:30 PM

I think we can all conclude that Chrome Mox is still good in this deck, and City of Traitors can get you color screwed. I like the tempo boost City of Traitors provides, but I would take the color part over the Tempo boost.

I like the Monowhite version or Uw Versions of Angel Stompy the most. I really do think that this deck is going to be good for a long time because Aggro decks are everywhere. I would also like to adjust it to beat something like Faerie Stompy.

TheDrunkDwarf

12-15-2006, 12:42 PM

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere along this thread, I didnt see it as I scanned through.

I dont have nearly as much experience with this deck as many of the people here, so I was going to ask if splashing red might be viable? Maybe swapping in some burn (Lightning Helix, Bolt) might give the deck a better clock. Boros swiftblade also needs mentioning, while he may be vulnerable he works very well with equipment.

Phantom Lord

12-16-2006, 02:22 AM

I think that if you were to splash another color in AS, it would either be Blue or Black. If your going to splash red, you might as well play "Boros deck wins" since that is basically what it would be.

If you were to splash Blue, main changes would be MM, Stifle, and Brainstorm.
In Black, you get Duress, Cabal Therapy, Vindicate, and maybe Spectral Lynx. And Engineered Plague in the side.:wink:
In Red, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, maybe Mogg Fanatic or another burn spell.

Blue and black help more against the bad combo MU more than red does IMHO.

Zilla

12-16-2006, 07:06 PM

The splashes have been pretty thoroughly explored.

- The most successful splash is Phil Stolze's W/u/b Angel Stompy (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2576), which has a somewhat diminished game against aggro in favor of a stronger combo matchup. It's quite good.

- The blue splash is here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4581). I don't know what its performance has been like in tourneys.

- The red splash has been dabbled with by various people, and is typically abandoned. It's been discussed in this thread some, but I don't blame you for not sifting through 50 plus pages to find it. The upshot is that red gives you Swiftblade, which because of its fragilitiy is basiocally win-more. If your opponent can't answer it, it's brutal, but if your opponent can't answer it, it means you were already winning.

As for the burn, it's nice and all, but you have to cut other threats for it, and you get very little in return. It doesn't speed up your clock at all, and you're already packing some of the best removal in the game with Jitte and SoFI and StP and Wave. All it really provides is late game reach against Control, but not enough to give you a significantly more positive matchup.

You get Pyrostatic Pillar as a sideboard option against combo, but it's not significantly better than Rule of Law or Glowrider in the combo matchup, so it's pretty moot.

The red splash is basically unnecessary. All you really get out of it is a weaker manabase. You might as well play BDW if you want to go this route.

On another note, I've been testing a revised version of the mono-white build for the last few weeks, and I'm increasingly convinced that it's the correct way for the deck to go. It's got better game against Goblins, similar but slightly better game against Thresh, better game one against Solidarity, and better overall game against board control. This isn't to say that it has positive matchups against all of these decks - only that they are, to varying degrees, better than they are now.

The manabase is much more consistent and stable as well, which means less mulls. I'll be starting a new Angel Stompy thread once I've done a bit more testing and a writeup on it. This thread has needed to be restarted for several months anyway.

tivadar

12-17-2006, 09:57 AM

I'm curious to see what the new list looks like. I'm always looking for new things to add to my build and what's thought "hot" in the other decklists is always useful to know.

As for the blue splash Zilla posted, please note it goes a bit more the control route than does traditional AS. It still has an early aggro, in-your-face feel, but its midgame is there to sweep the board of lands and/or creatures.

As for splashing in general, yeah, red's been tried, and I pretty much agree with most of what Godzilla said except that I think AS splashed red can actually have better reach than AS without a splash. One thing that hasn't been tried, though it may sound unthinkable, is replacing swords to plowshares completely with lightning bolt. There are a few matchups this would hurt, but I think they may really help the thresh/solidarity matchups, as they give you the extra reach you need.

Ophidian

12-19-2006, 05:31 PM

Just for an update, this is the version that I've been running recently.

12 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Aether Vial
2 Chrome Mox

4 Soltari Priest
4 Silver Knight
4 White Knight
4 Serra Avenger
4 Exalted Angel

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Parallax Wave

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Mask of Memory

2 Steelshaper's Gift

Sideboard
3 Cursed Totem
4 Disenchant
4 Morningtide
4 Glowrider/Pithing Needle (depending on an Combo or Control metagame)

I like the 2/2 Vial/Mox split. You never really want more of one than the other (although I am a huge fan of the Vial, and could see adding more in the future)

I love the creature base. Mom was very rarely if ever useful. I took her out for the Avengers and haven't looked back yet. Isamaru, in my opinion belongs in a pure Weenie/Boros'esque deck. This is aggro/control, and although he fits the Aggro bill, his lack of abilities make him more of a liability.

Things that are questionable:

Steelshaper's gift?! I know,there are hundreds of pages dedicated to it (and E.T. for that matter) Since I don't run Mom or Isamaru, it fills the turn one spot nicely. I don't what to say except that I like it. IMHO, it's never a bad thing to be able to tutor a Jitte or SOFI on demand.

Serra Avenger?! I love her. Since my deck is almost all 2 drops, her turn 4 liability is negated because I have plenty of other creatures to play in the interim. Plus, her synergy with Vial has already been covered in detail. Not to mention that either SOFI or Jitte on her is incredible.

I've been running this version for about a month now and haven't really looked back. This version has outstanding matchups vs Goblins and Threshold and can just flat out pull away with wins against most decks. Of course, the deck still loses badly to Solidarity, but if you're worried about that, then you shouldn't be playing this deck. The only other problem child is Rock variants. Between Deed and discard, it's nigh impossible to win 2 out of 3. The only sideboard band-aid I can come up with is Pithing Needle, since it shuts down Deed, Spiritmonger, Volrath's Strongold, and Troll Ascetic.

Questions/Comments?

My $.02 on splashing colors.

Why?
If you want to play direct damage (red) then port Boros from Extended.
If you want to play counters (blue) then play Fish.
With a card pool as vast as Legacy, there's not to much you can't handle mono-chromatically. One of the inherent strengths of this deck is that you're not (too!) susceptible to Wasteland.

Anarky87

12-19-2006, 05:48 PM

The only other problem child is Rock variants. Between Deed and discard, it's nigh impossible to win 2 out of 3. The only sideboard band-aid I can come up with is Pithing Needle, since it shuts down Deed, Spiritmonger, Volrath's Strongold, and Troll Ascetic.

If you're expecting Control like this, Needle and 'Geddon would be solid choices. I remember back when I was playing The Rock alot, the one thing I disliked seeing was Needle on Deed. But what I hated most out of AS's SB was Armageddon, as it truly wrecked me. Even when I threw discard at them, sometimes they would manage to topdeck a 'Geddon and just blow me to hell.

Ophidian

12-19-2006, 06:24 PM

If you're expecting Control like this, Needle and 'Geddon would be solid choices. I remember back when I was playing The Rock alot, the one thing I disliked seeing was Needle on Deed. But what I hated most out of AS's SB was Armageddon, as it truly wrecked me. Even when I threw discard at them, sometimes they would manage to topdeck a 'Geddon and just blow me to hell.

I appreciate the input, I've never played Rock, and therefore I did not know that they valued their lands as much as they do. Which, I guess makes since, because without mana, deed doesn't go off, ascetic and monger can't regen, and stronghold is either useless or in the yard.

Thanks for the help!

Anarky87

12-19-2006, 06:29 PM

I appreciate the input, I've never played Rock, and therefore I did not know that they valued their lands as much as they do. Which, I guess makes since, because without mana, deed doesn't go off, ascetic and monger can't regen, and stronghold is either useless or in the yard.

Thanks for the help!

Mhm, they can try holding back lands for a post Armageddon (which is what I did), but The Rock is really mana hungry, so that means Deeds and Ascetics/Mongers (I always played Baloth instead of Monger) come on line slower. So Needle on Deed followed by an Armageddon is very rough. Also, you might try letting them deal with your threats 1 by 1.

Citrus-God

12-24-2006, 03:32 AM

The same should be applied to RG Survival Advantage as well. RGSA is another mana hungry Midgame creature deck. They really need that mana to abuse Survival and/or use their utility creatures.

Virel

12-24-2006, 10:22 AM

I've been testing with a small black splash. Pretty much the typical list with Dark Confiant & fetchlands. The extra card draw has been good. Sometimes it hurts if you flip the angel but if she see play, she'll quickly restore the life.

For sideboard, black opens up Cabal Therapy & Duress. With the creature base & extra draw draw from DC the deck seems able to support Cabal pretty well.

Phantom Lord

12-24-2006, 11:33 AM

Im currently running the Black splash. I have 4x duress and 2x cabal therapy Md. I dont like the confidant and fetches because most of the cards cost 2cc or more, and combined with ancient tomb they hurt too much early on.

vagus

01-15-2007, 03:38 PM

mmmetaphor

01-15-2007, 04:09 PM

Dust Elemental 2Mana blancoMana blanco
Creature -- Elemental - R
Flash, Flying, Fear
When Dust elemental comes into play, return 3 creatures you control to their
owner's hand.
6/6

can de alemetal go to MD instead 1 or 2 exalted?

If u have 3 creatures in play shouldn't you be in good position to win anyway? Seems like a winmore card to me.

MasterBlaster

01-15-2007, 07:16 PM

Dust Elemental 2Mana blancoMana blanco
Creature -- Elemental - R
Flash, Flying, Fear
When Dust elemental comes into play, return 3 creatures you control to their
owner's hand.
6/6

can de alemetal go to MD instead 1 or 2 exalted?

Dust Elemental might be SB worthy to help you dodge mass removal in the control matchup. Only testing can tell.

tivadar

01-15-2007, 07:36 PM

Something odd here, the way this is currently worded, (I'm assuming it's three target creatures), if you don't have 3 creatures, the triggered ability gets countered and you get a 6/6 for 4... I'm guessing that it's actually "return 3 creatures you control to their owner's hand or sacrifice dust elemental". Right now it works as an overly amazing sea drake.

As for how good he is in the deck, it really depends on the wording. If he can return himself as well, he may not be bad to dodge removal. If you need 3 creatures in addition to him (which means you'll also end up losing him), he's probably a bad idea.

MasterBlaster

01-15-2007, 07:51 PM

Something odd here, the way this is currently worded, (I'm assuming it's three target creatures), if you don't have 3 creatures, the triggered ability gets countered and you get a 6/6 for 4... I'm guessing that it's actually "return 3 creatures you control to their owner's hand or sacrifice dust elemental". Right now it works as an overly amazing sea drake.

Assuming you don't have enough creatures it would return itself to your hand. Which is actually a nice trick because it could let you repeatedly use it turn after turn to bounce your creatures to your hand.

tivadar

01-15-2007, 08:19 PM

Assuming you don't have enough creatures it would return itself to your hand. Which is actually a nice trick because it could let you repeatedly use it turn after turn to bounce your creatures to your hand.

That's not true, there's no "as many as possible" abilities in magic. It really is most likely one of the following:

As a replacement effect, like Phyrexiant Dreadnought:
If Phyrexian Dreadnought would come into play, sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater instead. If you do, put Phyrexian Dreadnought into play. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
(This means if you don't have the three creatures, it dies, and it doesn't count as one of them.)

As a triggered ability like cloud of faeries:
When Cloud of Faeries comes into play, untap up to two lands.
You can choose the number of creatures to be 0 and play it with no additional effects, not bloody likely.

As a triggered ability like sea drake:
When Sea Drake comes into play, return two target lands you control to your hand.
If you don't have three creatures in play, the ability fizzles and no creatures return to their owner's hand

These are the most likely instances. It could have multiple occurences of the word "target" on it, but that really doesn't help anything, as that would just mean you could choose the same target multiple times and only essentially return one creature.

In other words, outside of a replacement effect, there's no reasonable way this card could be worded. You're going to have to return 3 creatures that aren't dust elemental to your hand, which is going to royally suck and definetly is a win more. When do you ever have 3 creature out against any reasonable deck? I suppose it's possible they could have it worded some other way, but I've never seen anything non-targetting that comes into play like that unless it's an "up to" or a replacement effect.

Zilla

01-16-2007, 04:38 AM

You can play Dust Elemental with no creatures ont he board if you want to; it will just bounce itself. You can play it with one creature on the board and it will bounce that creature and itself. Same goes for 2 creatures ont he board. You'd have to have three creatures in play for it to stay on the board.

It doesn't belong in Angel Stompy, at least not in the maindeck. As a beatstick, it's pretty subpar, when you consider that you'd have to return 6 power worth of creatures for him to stay in play. Basically all you'd be getting out of him is a full turn's worth of tempo loss for essentially no gain, which makes him pretty awful compared to an Exalted Angel, which can also be active as early as turn 4 and doesn't require you to forfeit all your other active creatures.

He's theoretically useful as a sideboard tool against decks packing mass removal, but you already have a 4cc SB card against decks that pack WoG, Damnation and the like: Armageddon. 'Geddon is not only solid against board control decks but also against Solidarity. I can't really think of a reason you'd want Dust Elemental over 'geddon in your board.

tivadar

01-16-2007, 01:54 PM

I'll defer to your wisdom on this one. Is there another card similar to this out there? Just curious, all the other cards I can think of are replacement effects or targetted abilities.

Anyways, more interesting than the dust crapper who will probably be... well, crap is this:

Stonecloaker 2w
Creature - Gargoyle U

Flash
Flying
When Stonecloaker comes into play, return a creature you control to it's owner's hand.
When Stonecloaker comes into play remove target card in a graveyard from the game.

There isn't a lot this guy doesn't do. He will be amazing against graveyard recursion (reanimator, iggy, survival, crucible). In addition, he can protect your own creatures from targetted removal, which is a big plus. He also does mean things with any CIP abilities your creatures may have. He provides nice combat tricks especially against thresh. You can double block with 2/2's and save one of them, or block that piledriver with isamaru then get him back to your hand. Is he better than grunties against thresh? Probably not, but he serves a much more rounded role in the deck. Also, it's a 3/2 flyer for 3 mana, so not so poorly costed.

Zilla

01-16-2007, 05:49 PM

I hadn't seen the uncommon "rescue" creature yet, and this one seems interesting. He's not an auto-include though. His ability to rescue is nice, but when you want to be playing pure aggro (like against combo, for example), he's subpar because he costs you tempo. Combat tricks are nice though, as is his evasion. I'd say it warrants testing, certainly moreso than Dust Elemental.

aTn

02-16-2007, 06:44 PM

After reading Bardo's latest SCG article, I'm intrigued by Zilla's latest list. So the 100000$ question is: Zilla, could you post your latest list ? If not, I'll understand (but I'll cry like a Leprechaun who has lost his raimbow).

Zilla

02-17-2007, 05:57 AM

I'll be posting my list soonish, yes. I want to finish thorough testing against a wider array of decks. Also, I'll be starting a new thread for it because 2/3 of the cards are different. It's fundamentally the same concept, but there are a lot of changes, so I want to be sure to test and write about them all thoroughly.

Cavius The Great

02-17-2007, 09:06 AM

Does the deck have Tithe and Empyrial Plate along with Cataclysm? That's my best guess. :tongue:

xsockmonkeyx

02-17-2007, 10:08 AM

Does the deck have Tithe and Empyrial Plate along with Cataclysm? That's my best guess. :tongue:

Here is a clue (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4797).

Zilla

02-17-2007, 04:33 PM

Here is a clue (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4797).
Haha. That's pretty esoteric. That deck shares 8 cards with the new Angel Stompy, excluding basic Plains.

xsockmonkeyx

02-17-2007, 04:50 PM

Gotta keep 'em guessing :wink:

EDIT: I think you talk about it a little on page 3.

Volt

02-17-2007, 11:22 PM

Zilla

02-18-2007, 03:41 AM

I'm looking forward to seeing your new list, Zilla. In the meantime, I've been testing against the following:

17 Plains
4 Ancient Tombs
1 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Exalted Angel
4 Serra Avenger
4 Soltari Priest
4 Silver Knight
4 Isamaru
4 Savannah Lion

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm

2 Mask of Memory
2 Sword of Light and Shadow (better synergy than SoFI, I think)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

It seems pretty strong, although I'm sure your list is much more refined. Did I hear something about a second color being added? <taps foot impatiently>
This list is 10 cards off from my mono-white Cataclysm build.

I'm no longer a fan of Savannah Lions. They're terrible against Goblins and Thresh. I'd rather have Mother of Runes to protect my threats, particularly when I cast her after a Cataclysm.

I still run SoFI. Direct damage and card draw beats cutesy synergy in my opnion, because if you resolve Cataclysm with a creature and equipment on the board you've already won.

I don't run Serra Avatar. She should be awesome, but she hasn't been in my testing. You can't cast her until the turn of or after you want to be casting Cataclysm, which has been poor. Razor Golem in this slot is insanely good. It's always a turn 3 drop, it kills a Threshed Mongoose and sticks around, and most importantly, it counts as either an artifact or a creature when casting Cataclysm. Keeping Golem and a Silver Knight, or Golem and a Jitte, for example, is 100% pure awesome sauce. It's also great against cards like Chalice, Deed, and Engineered Explosives, thanks to its high cc.

Our manabases and everything else are identical. The manabase in particular is absolutely perfect. You always hit WW by turn 2, and you always hit 4 mana by turn 4. You typically have one or two mana to help you recover from a Cataclysm. The manabase is perfect.

That's the white list, and it works very well. The newer list is still in testing, and has a second color. As previously stated, it plays similarly, despite the fact that 2/3 of the cards are different from the mono-white build.

Volt

02-18-2007, 03:56 AM

This list is 10 cards off from my mono-white Cataclysm build.

I'm no longer a fan of Savannah Lions. They're terrible against Goblins and Thresh. I'd rather have Mother of Runes to protect my threats, particularly when I cast her after a Cataclysm.

I still run SoFI. Direct damage and card draw beats cutesy synergy in my opnion, because if you resolve Cataclysm with a creature and equipment on the board you've already won.

I don't run Serra Avatar. She should be awesome, but she hasn't been in my testing. You can't cast her until the turn of or after you want to be casting Cataclysm, which has been poor. Razor Golem in this slot is insanely good. It's always a turn 3 drop, it kill a Threshed Mongoose and sticks around, and most importantly, it counts as either an artifact or a creature when casting Cataclysm. Keeping Golem and a Silver Knight, or Golem and a Jitte, for example, is 100% pure awesome sauce. It's also great against cards like Chalice, Deed, and Engineered Explosives, thanks to its high cc.

Our manabases and everything else are identical. The manabase in particular is absolutely perfect. You always hit WW by turn 2, and you always hit 4 mana by turn 4. You typically have one or two mana to help you recover from a Cataclysm. The manabase is perfect.

That's the white list, and it works very well. The newer list is still in testing, and has a second color. As previously stated, it plays similarly, despite the fact that 2/3 of the cards are different from the mono-white build.

I've been liking the Avengers, actually, but those are awesome points about the Golem. And, yeah, the Savannah Lions are meh. I will swap them out for moms.

EDIT: Fucking A! I just looked at a Razor Golem. I had forgotten those bad boys had Vigilance!

Here's what I threw together for a sideboard. Does it seem reasonable?

4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Rule of Law

xsockmonkeyx

02-18-2007, 05:03 PM

I don't run Serra Avenger. She should be awesome, but she hasn't been in my testing. You can't cast her until the turn of or after you want to be casting Cataclysm, which has been poor. Razor Golem in this slot is insanely good. It's always a turn 3 drop, it kills a Threshed Mongoose and sticks around, and most importantly, it counts as either an artifact or a creature when casting Cataclysm. Keeping Golem and a Silver Knight, or Golem and a Jitte, for example, is 100% pure awesome sauce. It's also great against cards like Chalice, Deed, and Engineered Explosives, thanks to its high cc.

QFT. Razor Golem is highly underrated as a WW creature. I was playing around with him in the 22Plains thread and in testing he was pretty awesome. He provides necessary ground beef to matchup better against stuff like Mongoose and Zoo critters. However, his synergy with Cataclysm makes him the absolute nuts.

Zilla

02-18-2007, 05:24 PM

Here's what I threw together for a sideboard. Does it seem reasonable?

No. You need more anti-combo sideboard, and Ghostly Prison, while it has nice synergy with Cataclysm, is totally unnecessary because you already smash aggro.

Your SB should start out like so:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider

Everything after that is incidental. I run 2 Geddon and 2 Crypt, since one is good against Solidarity and one is decent against IGG, while still having other applications against board control and Thresh respectively.

That leaves you three cards which can be anything, but I recommend Needle or Disenchant here, depending on your metagame.

Note that Chalice is not only insanely good against all combo, it's also very very strong against Thresh.

While it might seem symmetrical, it's really not; against combo you side out StP and Mother of Runes and you're looking at a sum total of 4 1cc cards in your entire deck. It's fully playable and very strong.

With 8-10 dedicated anti-combo sideboard cards, these matchups are winnable, particularly because (in the case of Solidarity), Cataclysm actually has an application, where Parallax Wave is totally dead. These matchups are still some of your most difficult, but you do have the tools to beat them with this sideboard.

Volt

02-18-2007, 05:35 PM

No. You need more anti-combo sideboard, and Ghostly Prison, while it has nice synergy with Cataclysm, is totally unnecessary because you already smash aggro.

Your SB should start out like so:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider

Everything after that is incidental. I run 2 Geddon and 2 Crypt, since one is good against Solidarity and one is decent against IGG, while still having other applications against board control and Thresh respectively.

That leaves you three cards which can be anything, but I recommend Needle or Disenchant here, depending on your metagame.

Note that Chalice is not only insanely good against all combo, it's also very very strong against Thresh.

While it might seem symmetrical, it's really not; against combo you side out StP and Mother of Runes and you're looking at a sum total of 4 1cc cards in your entire deck. It's fully playable and very strong.

With 8-10 dedicated anti-combo sideboard cards, these matchups are winnable, particularly because (in the case of Solidarity), Cataclysm actually has an application, where Parallax Wave is totally dead. These matchups are still some of your most difficult, but you do have the tools to beat them with this sideboard.

Makes sense. This new mono-white build is really good. I can tell you it's no fun to play against with Meat Hooks.

Zilla

02-18-2007, 07:29 PM

Makes sense. This new mono-white build is really good. I can tell you it's no fun to play against with Meat Hooks.
It really is good, and as far as the mono-white version is concerned, I consider it the new "official" list. It has improved game against literally every deck in the field with only a couple of exceptions: Faerie Stompy and Affinity are slightly worse matchups now, because Parallax Wave is more effective removal against them than Cataclysm. This is because they're designed to operate in similar ways to you: make one big (often flying) threat, back it with equipment, and ride that threat to victory. You do have more resilience to FS' Chalice now though, and unlike those two decks, you have StP to remove that one threat they save after a Cataclysm.

Incidentally, it's strategically important against other aggro decks to save StP as a post-Cataclysm play if at all possible. This completely clears the opponent's side of the table and allows a quick and decisive victory.

Ophidian

02-19-2007, 05:33 PM

Your SB should start out like so:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider

QFT

Those two cards really are the fundamentals of mono-white AS sideboard. They shore up your tough matchups and (depending on your build) don't hurt you that much.

I've also used the following:
Pithing Needle
Morningtide
Presence of the Master
Second Sunrise
Armageddon
Cursed Totem

Questions/Comments?

Lego

02-19-2007, 06:50 PM

Presence of the Master

So... incredibly... random. But I love that Einstein is in the picture :)

Consider Null Rod for certain metas. It's good in a lot of random combo matchups, and you board out your equipment there anyway. It also beats Affinity, which is nice sometimes.

Ophidian

02-19-2007, 07:47 PM

So... incredibly... random. But I love that Einstein is in the picture :)

Consider Null Rod for certain metas. It's good in a lot of random combo matchups, and you board out your equipment there anyway. It also beats Affinity, which is nice sometimes.

Presence has shown me love vs CAL and Enchantress, plus the pic is so rad

I run Null Rod in every other sideboard I have.. but vs Affinity I usually use a combo or Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle. I just love equipment too much to sideboard it out.

My uber tech is Winnow for the mirror match (but that's super secret tech)

Kokusho17

02-22-2007, 01:26 PM

i cant wait to see what the new deck looks like.

Faluzure

02-22-2007, 01:32 PM

i cant wait to see what the new deck looks like.

I know, the anticipation is killing me.

xsockmonkeyx

02-22-2007, 01:37 PM

You should be able to figure out the mono-white build by now. If not, here you go.

//NAME: Angel Stompy
// Mana
17 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
// Beats
4 Mother of Runes
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Razor Golem
4 Exalted Angel
// Equipment
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 Glowrider

Its not completely up to date (SB mostly, I think) but its pretty close.

Faluzure

02-22-2007, 01:55 PM

You should be able to figure out the mono-white build by now. If not, here you go.

Its not completely up to date (SB mostly, I think) but its pretty close.

Well what I was curious about was the fact that he said it wasn't mono-color. I'm intrigued to why he went the dual color route when the mono-white build was so solid. I just like to read his explanations because they are so in-depth.

xsockmonkeyx

02-22-2007, 01:58 PM

Well, Im curious about that too. ZILLLAAAAH!!!!!

Zilla

02-22-2007, 04:44 PM

Still working on it. Been busy with work, and as I said, it's still in testing. Plus, some people may be taking it to GP Columbia, so it might be vaguely sekrit tech. I'll keep you guys posted.

ExplosPlankton

02-22-2007, 05:37 PM

I'm very curious as well. Does anyone have a guess as to what the second color is? It looks like it is either green or black (?). I hope the new list runs an enchantment as that seems to be what the mono color version is lacking. If the splash is green, rancor, armadillo cloak, or even moldervine cloak would seem to be pretty decent additions but then again, creature enchantments just open you up for 2 for 1s =/. At least throw in a seal of cleansing somewhere.

And When is GP Columbia anyway?

Lego

02-22-2007, 08:51 PM

There's a pretty simple reason to go two color, actually. ZillA did it on the assumption that winning is better than not winning. If you don't enter a tournament with the same mindset, you should probably stick to mono-color.

And the splash color is white. It was going to be purple, but R&D Hosed us on that one. So White it is. Required a few fetches and some duals, but our susceptibility to Wasteland isn't too bad.

The GP is May 19-20, and unless something ridiculous happens to the meta and/or I lose complete faith in the awesomeness that is "The Further Deoxygenation of Tokyo Bay in an Era of Global Warming" I see no reason why I won't be bringing this. And there's some sweet tech that I'd rather people not know about. Although I'm going to T8 TML Open 2, and then Kadi's D4D... so the lists will get out then :cool: You don't have long to wait :smile:

xsockmonkeyx

02-22-2007, 09:34 PM

With W/g there is also Anurid Brushopper. That card might be good with Cataclysm.

ExplosPlankton

02-22-2007, 11:01 PM

Anurid brushopper is fairly synergistic with cataclysm but the cc doesnt work too well with ancient tomb. Whether that precludes its inclusion or not, I dont know.

Lego

02-22-2007, 11:33 PM

Anurid brushopper is fairly synergistic with cataclysm but the cc doesnt work too well with ancient tomb. Whether that precludes its inclusion or not, I dont know.

It's pretty bad to have to open yourself up to Wasteland and take a manaburn +2 pain to Ancient Tomb. We try to keep the threats synergistic with the mana base.

vagus

02-23-2007, 10:11 AM

In the new deck list with cataclysm insn´t a good idea some tithe?

sorry for my bad english

Volt

02-23-2007, 11:26 AM

In the new deck list with cataclysm insn´t a good idea some tithe?

sorry for my bad english

I wouldn't be surprised if the new 2c deck uses Tithe. We'll see.

My guesses for what the 2nd color is, in order of probability:
blue
black
red
green

f|i[p]

02-23-2007, 02:02 PM

Im guessing the second color would be black.

Discard is much more aggressive than counterspells..thats if were still staying in the aggressive route...you can duress before you use cataclysm, it helps your combo match up as well... black gives you perish, e.plague, duress, cabal therapy..it could also give you spectral lynx.. also makes extripate available for loam or any graveyard hate... so im guessing this would be the right color to splash.. but who really knows.. The person who designed the deck would know better..

jst a thought since I run the W/b version...I used to run razor golems a year ago.. jst a 2 of.... I got annoyed at the fact that they could get naturalized and took it off.... but perhaps I could give them a try again.. but I really cant wait to get my hands on cataclysms and see the new list...

vagus

02-23-2007, 04:41 PM

playing mono color version in a metagame with only 1-2 combo decks some times ond other 0 combo decks Do you think is best a version whith the cataclysm or whit parallax?

With parallax I had good results. In the last 2 tournaments y only lose vs pikula, and w/u scepter and one vs goblins but whit a 2 horrible mulligans to 5

f|i[p]

02-23-2007, 11:08 PM

Just figured this out.. that therapy before cataclysm is alot better.... as your going to sac the rest of your creatures except one anyway, so you can use therapy's flashback assuming you have at least 2 creatures before casting cataclysm..

playing mono color version in a metagame with only 1-2 combo decks some times ond other 0 combo decks Do you think is best a version whith the cataclysm or whit parallax?

Well cataclysm is also good against control, and aggro (but not all aggro).. We ussually have more efficient creatures.. and bigger ones... so leaving creatures on a 1 vs 1 situation with equipment is not as bad as you think...

I think you should decide depending on your metagame...I think cataclysm is more diverse...it almost helps against all matchups.. from combo to control and it isnt that bad against agrro too.. unlike parallax which is totally dead against combo...but its really your choice... as for me.. cataclysm is a smarter choice.you can put parallax wave in the side board if you really need it.

vagus

02-24-2007, 07:17 AM

Now I am testing this catclysm version:

11 plains
4 tomb
3 mox
3 tithe

4 mother
4 soltari
4 silver knight
4 exalted
4 golem
2 isamaru
2 lions

4 cataclysm
4 swords to plowsares
3 sword of f/i
2 jitte
2 mask of memory

sb

4 chalice of the void
3 disenchant
2 pithing needle
2 tormonds
4 glowrider

What do you think about the list? How I can do it better?

Probably y change lions/isamaru for lynx because in my meta are 2-3 ***** and 1-2 madness in 16-20 decks

ExplosPlankton

02-24-2007, 12:51 PM

First of all, its probably not a good idea to run the version with 4 razor golem if ur running chrome mox and tithe. The first thing I would do is take out mox and tithe for plains or at least remove the mox as they have poor synergy with golem. If u dont want to do that, take out the golems for another beater like jotun grunt or serra avenger. The optimal list is posted on this very page so I would just go with that.

Though if u want to go with lynx, why not splash black for 4 duress in the main and then ur sb could look like:

4x cabal therapy
4x glowrider
3x engineered plague
4x jotun grunt

The black splash allows u to run e. plague vs goblins as well as lynx and grunt vs threshold. Duress, cabal therapy, and glowrider should improve your combo matchup (just dont run duress and cabal therapy with chalice, its one or the other) Here's a list i just threw together, feel free to tinker with it. The most noticeable change is the removal of priest which i feel is the weakest creature due to its inability to block.

4x Tomb
4x Scrubland
2x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
9x Plains
1x Flagstones

4x Mom
4x Isamaru
4x Silver Knight
3x Razor Golem
3x Exalted Angel
4x Spectral Lynx

4x Cataclysm
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Duress

2x Mask
2x SoFaI
2x Jitte

edgewalker

02-24-2007, 01:28 PM

Theres no real need for black in the aggro/control match-up since you already beat them. E plague? You already play 8 pro-red men, 4 of them with first strike, exalted angel, jitte and SoFI. The goblins match-up is already a sure thing. Thresh is almost just as good. The main problem this deck has, which I feel everyone agrees on is that it has a horrible combo match-up. Glowrider, chalice and the like help out alot, but if you splash a color, I think it should be to help combo, not match-ups the deck already wins against.

ExplosPlankton

02-24-2007, 01:38 PM

Duress and Cabal Therapy DO help against combo. How does splashing black not help vs combo? Thats the whole point. If you feel like you need more hate than Duress, therapy, and glowrider, go ahead and remove the plagues for even more hate like rule of law or something. The above list only runs 4 pro red men and thus the addition of plague and besides, No matchup is a sure thing. Why not prepare for the decks ur most likely to face? In the goblin match, the useless duress would come out for the plagues.

edgewalker

02-24-2007, 01:46 PM

They help, I'm not saying they don't. I was simply trying to say that arguements like " card x helps against goblins and thresh" is worthless (you made the previous comment) And duress and therapy do help, but they're not game stoppers. Ask any combo play if hey can play through gy hate especially solidarity. Any compotent play knows how to play through hate.

ExplosPlankton

02-24-2007, 01:52 PM

Competent combo players can play through chalice of the void. They have rebuild or rack and ruin in the u/r versions. I think its harder to play through duress and a double therapy.

edgewalker

02-24-2007, 02:36 PM

Regardless, of what hate cards you play, the purpose my post was to point out that the only help this deck needs is with combo. Apparently my post was unneed. I'll be going to commit ritualitic suicide because of my mistake

ExplosPlankton

02-24-2007, 02:55 PM

What is your suggestion to help with combo? The best thing I can think of is splashing black. We already know that another list with a splash is coming so this is partly speculation on my part as to what a black splash could offer. Ask a combo player what matchup is difficult and many would say decks like deadguy and red death because discard is effective against them. Obviously, these changes arent going to swing the match hugely in your favor but its a start and worth trying i think.

Instead of rule of law which i suggested earlier, I think I would rather have gerrard's verdict in this deck as rule can be more easily played around. Is flesh reaver a possibility vs combo? It gives you a better clock and its not like solidarity is going to burn you out. The problem I can see is that its only effective against solidarity as other combo decks could capitalize on your low life total by killing you with tendrils.

How about this for a dedicated anti-combo sb? This sb is assuming duress is in the Main.

4 cabal therapy
4 glowrider
3 gerrard's verdict
4 flesh reaver

Out: 4 spectral lynx/soltari priest 4 razor golem 4 cataclysm 3 stp
In: 4 flesh reaver 4 glowrider 4 cabal therapy 3 gerrard's verdict

vagus

02-24-2007, 03:31 PM

At the moment I must run de monocolor version because i haven't scrubbland.

I cut the mox, because the poor sinergy with golem.

cianty

02-24-2007, 05:05 PM

Hey, I'm new to this forum so... well, hi!

If we were going B why not include the classic: Phyrexian Negator for the Combo matchup? Its cost works very well with Ancient Tomb.

ExplosPlankton

02-24-2007, 05:55 PM

Hi,

I was thinking of that as well. I thought of flesh reaver at first because I knew that some landstill builds side it in against solidarity but negator is probably better for angel stompy on account of the cc working so well with tomb.

markbris

02-24-2007, 07:31 PM

Kokusho17

02-24-2007, 07:39 PM

Seems like negator would be pretty good. I would think it would work well with cataclysm.
Against combo:
1st turn: duress
2nd turn: negator with tomb
3rd turn: cataclysm

Against others:
1st turn: Mom,
2nd turn: Negator with tomb,
3rd turn: cataclysm?

Mom with negator seems good in general? What do you guys think?

That doesnt.

Against combo:
1st turn: duress, one black mana
2nd turn: negator with tomb, 2 colourless and 1 black mana
3rd turn: cataclysm, 2 colourless, 1 black and one white mana. wheres the other white mana coming from

Against others:
1st turn: Mom, one white mana
2nd turn: Negator with tomb, 1 white and 2 colourless mana, no black mana
3rd turn: cataclysm?

Where is this invisible mana coming from?

Kokusho17

02-24-2007, 07:40 PM

I do agree Mom and Negator are good together

sammiel

02-24-2007, 07:47 PM

That doesnt.

Against combo:
1st turn: duress, one black mana
2nd turn: negator with tomb, 2 colourless and 1 black mana
3rd turn: cataclysm, 2 colourless, 1 black and one white mana. wheres the other white mana coming from

Against others:
1st turn: Mom, one white mana
2nd turn: Negator with tomb, 1 white and 2 colourless mana, no black mana
3rd turn: cataclysm?

Where is this invisible mana coming from?

Please tell me this is a joke post.

Considering that one of the hallmarks of the legacy format is...I don't know...

DUAL LANDS

I think it's very possible for him to be generating white and black mana.

Kokusho17

02-24-2007, 07:54 PM

It is a joke post everybody was looking so serious so decided to make a joke post.

kicks_422

02-24-2007, 08:08 PM

Heh, sure, whatever... :tongue:

I don't think the deck needs to splash black for a better combo MU. I've actually done decent with mono-white Angel Stompy against combo, boarding in 4 True Believers and 4 Glowriders. They're excellent combo tools and beaters as well.

noobslayer

02-24-2007, 08:12 PM

Good advice for the future would be to not make joke posts. Also, I'd splash blue, before anything else. And then black. Wait... No. I'd play Phil's deck. Seeing as it continues to put up good or decent results, and no one prepares for it.

Kokusho17

02-24-2007, 08:21 PM

Good advice for the future would be to not make joke posts.

Someone doesnt have a sense of humour :tongue:

f|i[p]

02-24-2007, 10:09 PM

Sorry kicks.. but if mono white could have done well against combo decks, why have we been looking so long for a good splash of color, or anti combo cards.. Phil stolze even splashed blue and black for better combo and control match ups...Alot of people have been trying the blue splash...We wont splash colors if we did well against combo being mono white.. You'll have to dedicate more than 8 cards in the sideboard to do decent against combo ... Also you'll have to have mother to protect true believer and glowrider against bounce; with duress and therapy, you really cant do anything about it except let it resolve unless they counter it which they could also do against true believer and glowrider.. back here iggy pop always has 2 massacre's in the sideboard..so I really do think the black splash is the right choice.

This is my current list..with the black splash...

7 plains
1 flagstones of trokair
4 ancient tomb
4 scrublands
6 fetch

4 mother
3 razor golem
4 silver knight
4 exalted
2 spectral lynx
3 isamaru

4 cataclysm
4 swords to plowsares
2 sword of f/i
2 jitte
2 mask of memory
4 cabal therapy/duress

sideboard: it really depends on the metagame but for mine

4 glowriders
3 duress/cabal therapy
2 perish ---could be parallax wave but i hate ascetic..works for thresh too.
2 extripate or jotun grunt
2 seal of cleansing ---works better with cataclysm
2 armageddon - could be E.plague..but I havnet tested the list against
goblins.. but I think cataclysm can do well against goblins so
I didnt bother to board against it. could be the 4th
duress,3rd perish or third extripate or jotun grunt

I was actually thinking of cutting mask of memory and splitting the equipment
3 sword of fire and ice
3 jitte
But im not sure it will work...

Hey, I'm new to this forum so... well, hi!

If we were going B why not include the classic: Phyrexian Negator for the Combo matchup? Its cost works very well with Ancient Tomb.

Negator would have been good.. except that since were running cataclysm now, its a very bad choice...Negator has poor synergy with it.. Im not sure if they can float mana and burn the negator as cataclysm resolves when you decide to sacrifice negator to the cataclysm, leaving you with no permanents or 1...

markbris

02-24-2007, 10:38 PM

Negator I think would be good in the sideboard for combo, not maindeck. Yes they could tap lands and float mana for after the cataclysm, then burn your negator messing you up royally. However, what combo deck are we gonna be siding negator in against that is gonna float mana for burn?

Kokusho17

02-24-2007, 11:14 PM

If your running Cataclysm now wouldnt it be beneficial to run more flagstones?

cianty

02-24-2007, 11:17 PM

Just like markbris said. Unless I REALLY didn't get what Solidarity's red splash is supposted to do, that is the kind of matchup the Negator was meant for. However, it was more of an idea that popped up immediately rather than a strong suggestion.

EDIT: Zilla's been testing this version a lot I trust. So we have both Razor Golem and Flagsdtones having synergy with Cataclysm - but these two themselves don't work together (as the Flagstones "raise" the Golem's cost). So we have to choose between one of them and Razor Golem is the better choice.

markbris

02-24-2007, 11:23 PM

Solidarity is not going to cunning wish for a burn spell like urza's rage just to hit our negator and im not quite sure if we want to add more flagstones. The monowhite build only runs 1 with cataclysm and I would bet there's a reason for that.

ExplosPlankton

02-24-2007, 11:32 PM

We werent considering negator for the maindeck anyway. Theres not much risk of the negator taking burn damage against most combo (except for u/r solidarity but they have to have mana for wish + shock or urza's rage).

Flesh reaver is still a good choice against combo and especially if ur worried about having to sac permanents to the negator. Also, if you plan on boarding in glowrider AND Negator wouldnt u be heavy on 3cc creatures unless u remove your angels?

@Flip: I think you need to keep in mask for cheap draw. SoFaI is so expensive to use. Have you found that 18 creatures is enough? It doesnt seem like it would be seeing as the monowhite version had 24. I think I would try cutting an STP and something else to go up to at least 20.

@Kokusho: I really want to add flagstones to this deck (just because i like the card alot) but it doesnt work with razor golem at all. Even without razor golem im not sure it would be added on account of the tempo loss from laying a 2nd one.

Lego

02-24-2007, 11:36 PM

EDIT: Zilla's been testing this version a lot I trust. So we have both Razor Golem and Flagsdtones having synergy with Cataclysm - but these two themselves don't work together (as the Flagstones "raise" the Golem's cost). So we have to choose between one of them and Razor Golem is the better choice.

It's true, this has been iffy in testing, but the strength of both cards is obvious, and it hasn't been overwhelmingly disadvantageous. 2 Flagstones, 4 Golems. In most matchups you want to hold back the Flagstones to maximize the number of Plains in play, and it's rare that you'll be faced with not being able to play Turn 3 Golem because of Flagstones in hand. Golem is too good not to play, and Flagstones is good enough with Cataclysm to outweigh the occasional drawback of playing it with Golem.

Just to keep you guys on your toes: there are two more non-Plains, non-fetches in the deck :wink:

f|i[p]

02-25-2007, 10:21 AM

Sorry I didnt think you were considering negator on the sideboard.. I thought it was for main deck purposes (my fault) thus the concern for the burn or anything with red match up...hahaha I would be dumb to think that Solidarity or Iggy pop would splash red just to burn negator...I just misread the post....sorry again..

@Flip: I think you need to keep in mask for cheap draw. SoFaI is so expensive to use. Have you found that 18 creatures is enough? It doesnt seem like it would be seeing as the monowhite version had 24. I think I would try cutting an STP and something else to go up to at least 20.

thanks, but I think you misread my post.. I have 20 creatures on my list..

cianty

02-25-2007, 10:39 AM

Just to keep you guys on your toes: there are two more non-Plains, non-fetches in the deck :wink:

So, are you talking of duals? I guess not, because for a splash you'll probably want 4 Duals (and fetchies as well).

ExplosPlankton

02-25-2007, 12:33 PM

@flip: yep miscounted lol....still 4 less than monowhite build, how has that been?

I think "non-plains" excludes duals because any dual we would use would count as a plain. How does the new list run 2 flagstones as well as 2 non-plain lands with razor golems? Might as well run cathodian or chimeric idol. If the splash is black like we think, maybe one of those lands is urborg, tomb of yawgmoth.

Zilla

02-25-2007, 04:19 PM

It's true, this has been iffy in testing, but the strength of both cards is obvious, and it hasn't been overwhelmingly disadvantageous. 2 Flagstones, 4 Golems.
1 Flagstones in the Mono-White build. Two Flagstones in the splashed build, because it runs more Plains overall. Slight anti-synergy with Golem, but with the amount of mana sources you're running, it very rarely prevents you from achieving 3 Plains by turn 3, so it's largely irrelevant.

On the subject of combo: the mono-White build has been bad against combo because no one ever dedicated enough sideboard resources to beating it. A splash color does very little. Duress and Therapy are nice, but unless they're backed up by a dedicated disruption package (a la Deadguy) or an extremely fast clock (like 2 turns faster than this deck), they're not really a reliable means of defeating combo.

As previously stated, Chalice of the Void and Glowrider as 4-of's, backed by a 2-of like Geddon (for Solidarity) or a 2-of like Crypt (for IGG), is a reasonably reliable strategy against combo. You're not going to smash them, but you can win matches against them, and that's about the best you're going to get.

In any case, the splash isn't really about improving the combo matchups. It's about improving all your matchups, or at least improving more matchups than you sacrifice. That's why testing is taking so long. I want to test it against pretty much everything to see exactly what it's better against and what it's worse against.

cianty

02-25-2007, 05:22 PM

This improvement sounds to be so general that I'm really curious what it means. It will probably mean either getting out better creatures earlier or becoming more consistant. On second thought, Angel Stompy already is one of the most consistant decks I know, so what can be improved...? Stronger creatures (better beatdown?) or a lock-down-style (à la Meddling Mage by using blue) are what come to mind. Really don't know. Anyhow, unless we have a specific idea to elaborate on it's probably rather pointless to speculate and make Zilla repeat himself over and over again. I guess we'll just have to wait.

Zilla

02-25-2007, 05:53 PM

It will probably mean either getting out better creatures earlier or becoming more consistant.
Both. Angel Stompy is quite consistent, but older iterations had certain inconsistencies: namely the manabase. Producing WW by turn 2 with Chrome Moxen and Ancient Tombs in the mix while preventing late game manaflood has always been a bit of a problem for the deck. With the addition of Cataclysm, more lands are justified because you actually want more lands in the lategame. Thus you have more mana overall, which makes you more consistent and lowers the necessity for mulligans. Thus the deck is mroe consistent.

As for better creatures, we wouldn't mind those either. Threats which trade with or trump Nimble Mongoose make for a better Thresh and Goblins matchup, so they're desireable, for example.

cianty

02-25-2007, 05:59 PM

With the addition of Cataclysm, more lands are justified because you actually want more lands in the lategame. Thus you have more mana overall, which makes you more consistent and lowers the necessity for mulligans. Thus the deck is mroe consistent.

Well, to me there are two reasons for mulligans with Angel Stompy: either you have too few lands or you have too many. So unless I completely misunderstood you I can't see now why having like 22 lands would decrease your chances of mulliganing.

(I assume that that is what you mean by saying 'more lands', something like 22 or so.)

EDIT: But I feel kind of stupid and not in the position to discuss this with you as I have only experience with my own Angel Stompy deck which turned into a rather traditional list over time. Therefore I can't really say anything against your points as I have no idea about the feel of the deck with it's manabase and the amended creature/equipment base. So for now I will simply trust you and rest in high anticipation for your updated list.

markbris

02-26-2007, 12:19 AM

Ok so you suggested 4x glowrider and 4x chalice in the sb, if you were gonna go for more combo hate in the monocolor version sb, what would u choose next?

Lego

02-26-2007, 12:49 AM

Ok so you suggested 4x glowrider and 4x chalice in the sb, if you were gonna go for more combo hate in the monocolor version sb, what would u choose next?

As Zilla said, this depends on what you want to beat, but 2 Armageddon and 2 Crypt are a good start. You can board in 4 Glowrider, 4 Chalice, 2 Geddon against Solidarity, and 4 Rider, 4 Chalice, 2 Crypt against Iggy Pop. Against TES, resolving a Chalice or Glowrider usually gives you the time to find another or just swing for the win. Other options are Null Rod and Pithing Needle, depending on the specific combo deck you're trying to fight.

f|i[p]

02-26-2007, 03:59 AM

@flip: yep miscounted lol....still 4 less than monowhite build, how has that been?

At times I wish there were more.. At times when I draw 7 I'd jst have one creature..but I think its enough considering you can protect them with duress and mother..but I really do have to test it more...(which I do not get to do often sadly..)

Id really want to test it but haha there are only 2 ppl running solidarity, and one iggy pop.. here... and I wouldnt want them to know what Im bringing to the next tournament.. which means no solidarity or iggy testing for me...The last time i took first with the traditional angel stopmy,the next tournament after.. there were 3 people who used the same deck.. and everyone brought white hate.. I could test it against a vintage deck though...Dragon combo.. perhaps I should do that instead and see how I fair against it..

As for the black splash... I run 4 glowriders, 3 duress/cabal therapy, 2 geddons , 2 extripates which could be used for combo.. thats 11 cards from the sideboard.. plus 4 cataclysm's and 4 duress/therapy main deck...

Although I really havent tested this against solidarity...and it may jst look good on paper... would challice be better then the 3 duress or therapy on the sideboard if ever?

Zilla

02-26-2007, 07:51 AM

;113040']Although I really havent tested this against solidarity...and it may jst look good on paper... would challice be better then the 3 duress or therapy on the sideboard if ever?
I'm a fan of Chalice over Therapy or Duress (or both) as combo hate for this deck. Chalice simply shuts down more of their deck and buys you more time against them than a Duress or Therapy will in most cases. However, the deck has to be optimized to abuse Chalice. If it's a relatively symmetrical play, it's not doing much for you. In short, if you want to run Chalice, you need to either run 10 or less 1cc cards in the deck, or run 1cc cards you don't need to cast after first turn. If you run 10 or less, you can simply side all of them out for relevant hate in the form of Chalice, Glowrider, and Crypt/Geddon/Needle/Null Rod/etc.

ExplosPlankton

02-26-2007, 01:08 PM

Just to keep you guys on your toes: there are two more non-Plains, non-fetches in the deck :wink:[/QUOTE]

Does this mean that ancient tomb was cut from 4x to 2x? This would allow for more consistency.

I also think that Jotun Grunt is in the new list. A splash version will run fetches which play well with grunt and he trumps mongoose/trades with werebear. And its probably irrelevant but if you resolve a cataclysm with grunt in play, he'll never go hungry again.

Faluzure

02-26-2007, 01:40 PM

Does this mean that ancient tomb was cut from 4x to 2x? This would allow for more consistency.

I also think that Jotun Grunt is in the new list. A splash version will run fetches which play well with grunt and he trumps mongoose/trades with werebear. And its probably irrelevant but if you resolve a cataclysm with grunt in play, he'll never go hungry again.

Hmm. I'm expecting maybe one or two Flagstones of Trokair? Doing so would give you a free Plains with Cataclysm. So you have that one land advantage after it resolves...

Nydaeli

02-26-2007, 01:49 PM

@ Everyone: I don't think speculation about Zilla's new list is really going to get anywhere. There are a lot of directions it could go, especially considering that 2/3 of the cards are apparently different.

@ Zilla: GP Columbus is a long way away. :frown:

@ the Combo matchup: I've been messing around with a list that runs 4 Meddling Mage maindeck. Postboard, with Mage + Chalice + Cataclysm + optional Armageddon, Solidarity seems pretty positive. It's at least one way to go about it.

Lego

02-26-2007, 02:09 PM

@ Zilla: GP Columbus is a long way away. :frown:

@ the Combo matchup: I've been messing around with a list that runs 4 Meddling Mage maindeck. Postboard, with Mage + Chalice + Cataclysm + optional Armageddon, Solidarity seems pretty positive. It's at least one way to go about it.

If I finish my paper due next Monday this week, then I'll be going to The Mana Leak Open this weekend, and if I go, I'll be playing the new Angel Stompy list. Assuming I do well, expect the list after that :)

In addition to that board plan, I'd include 4 Glowrider. They're good against most combo matchups, and they'll buy you time to play your other hate. If you Cataclysm with one in play (especially with a Razor Golem, I'm not sure if you're playing him) you've probably won. Mage, Chalice, Glowrider, Armageddon should put you up on Solidarity post-board.

f|i[p]

02-27-2007, 12:37 AM

Well I guess the splash of blue would be better if were looking at chalice in the sideboard...well speculating wont help.. haha its hard enough to guess...
but the splash of blue has been getting really successful lately... and its very interesting as well...serendibs and mages.. court hussar's.

2 lands...hmmm, I dont think anyone will go karakas just to bounce isamaru back before cataclysm, that would be a waste...unless there were more legendary creatures...

parhaps city of traitors...

patience is a virtue...

ExplosPlankton

02-27-2007, 02:03 AM

I think a blue splash is likely if only because it allows for meddling mage. This card is in every other deck so why not angel stompy? Even slivers runs it and its not even a sliver.

I would also want to immediately include 4 brainstorm (and drop mask of memory i guess) but that doesnt work so well with the chalices in the board. Random rant: Chalice annoys me because it restricts deck design and is the cause of many non-interactive games.

The interaction of karakas and isamaru isnt worth not being able to play razor golem by turn 3.

Pinder

03-01-2007, 05:22 PM

I apologize in advance if this has been brought up, but I didn't see it in the last few pages, so:

Has anyone thought of Jotun Grunt in the Mono-White build? It seems to me that he'd be great right after a Cataclysm, because he only costs 2 mana (allowing you to get him out right after) for a 4/4, and between yours and your opponent's graveyard after a 'clysm, he'll likely be staying around for quite some time. Add to that the fact that he helps recycle the things you lost to Cataclysm, and he looks like an all around good include. And even without a Cataclysm, you can probably keep him alive for a while. And did I mention that he's fantastic against Thresh?

Maybe as a 1-2 of?

vagus

03-01-2007, 05:26 PM

Probably we can include 2 jotun instead 2 golem?

What do you think?

cianty

03-01-2007, 06:27 PM

I also thought of this. I do think that two Grunts main can be justified. I already run 4 in the sideboard so moving 2 to the main frees up sideboard slots which is really great. Now the question is what to take out for them. However, I do not think that they should replace Razor Golems. Maybe -1 Isamaru and -1 Soltari Priest then again maybe not. With my recent matches against Goblins I'm way way too afraid to cut anything that allows first turn Lackey. So maybe -1 SIlver Knight instead of Isamaru. This way we don't touch the mana base at least... I really don't know. I guess it just takes a lot of testing against the various decks.

Zilla

03-01-2007, 07:06 PM

Has anyone thought of Jotun Grunt in the Mono-White build?
Yes, and I'll explain why he's not included in depth when I restart the thread. But to explain briefly, he's bad because of Cataclysm. What you'll come to realize after playtesting the newer build some is that a resolved Cataclysm typically marks the end of the game. It's all cleanup from there. What you want is reliable threats you can play before Cataclysm, not ones that are only good after. The deck has very few instants and no Fetchlands, which means Grunt is a liability anytime in the first four or five turns of the game, and even then he's only good if your opponent is filling up their yard. After Cataclysm, he's win-more the majority of the time. You want solid threats that will stick around to wield a piece of equipment. Grunt's been tested and found wanting. Even in the matchups where you want dedicated graveyard removal (e.g., Thresh), I find Crypt to be a much more reliable and effective tool for this deck.

cianty

03-02-2007, 03:41 AM

Well, that's good to hear because it saves me the time of testing main Grunt :)

vagus

03-03-2007, 07:09 AM

one question... Why not fech lands in mono white version?

Obviusly you want a lot of plains but after one cataclysm the game is usually very favorable for us

parallax

03-03-2007, 10:19 AM

Because fetchlands don't do anything in a mono-colored deck unless you need the shuffle effect for Brainstorm.

Tacosnape

03-03-2007, 11:30 AM

Because fetchlands don't do anything in a mono-colored deck unless you need the shuffle effect for Brainstorm.

Or if you run Crucible of Worlds, but yeah.

Fetchlands lower your life total in a deck already running Ancient Tomb and open you up to Stifle and Pithing Needle for manabase disruption. The slight advantage you can occasionally get against Sinkhole is rarely worth it.

markbris

03-07-2007, 05:00 PM

I was wondering, did legoman or zilla play the newest list at TML Open? Can we see that list yet?

Tacosnape

03-07-2007, 09:37 PM

I was wondering, did legoman or zilla play the newest list at TML Open? Can we see that list yet?

I bet they didn't. The sneaks.

Seriously, it's going to suck if they all keep this deck under wraps until Columbus and then all completely scrub out with it. Someone better T8 with the thing.:tongue:

vagus

03-09-2007, 08:30 AM

I had tournament next week and I probably must play whithout Golem because I didn't recive it (I bought it in online shop)

Do you think is too crazy put spectral lynx instead of golem in the cataclysm version?

I expect 2 madness deck and 2-3 ******** in a total of 16-20 decks

Zilla

03-09-2007, 08:46 PM

My testing with Lynx has always been disappointing. The fact that he can chump Thresh creatures is nice and all, but he never trades with them, which means they can ignore him and win a straight up damage race. Plus he's utterly terrible against Goblins. Razor Golem, on the other hand, kills Mongoose, can play both offense and defense against Goblins, and has excellent synergy with Cataclysm, because it can either count as an artifact or a creature. I don't think the two are remotely comparable.

vampire-lord

03-10-2007, 05:45 AM

How does the Golem thingi work with cataclysm ??
pls can someone explaine this thing to me??, cause i have no time to look through the complete Thread

xsockmonkeyx

03-10-2007, 06:07 AM

Razor Golem in this slot is insanely good. It's always a turn 3 drop, it kills a Threshed Mongoose and sticks around, and most importantly, it counts as either an artifact or a creature when casting Cataclysm. Keeping Golem and a Silver Knight, or Golem and a Jitte, for example, is 100% pure awesome sauce. It's also great against cards like Chalice, Deed, and Engineered Explosives, thanks to its high cc.

vampire-lord

03-10-2007, 06:17 AM

Thx for the info, but i have another Question:
can i put Afinnity on Stack then play cataclysm and after resolving cataclysm
play the Golem?

Eldariel

03-10-2007, 07:37 AM

Umm, no. You can't respond to playing Razor Golem with Cataclysm since they're both sorceries. You can't put 'costs' on the stack separately, you just either put the whole spell on the stack or nothing at all. If you had Vedalken Orrery in play, it'd work, but barring that...

Oh, and we have a separate Rules-forum for questions like these.

aTn

03-14-2007, 01:17 PM

@Zilla: What is your overall strategy against Goblins (playing the new mono-W build) ? In particular, does Goblins recuperate from a Cataclysm or is it usually game-over ? For example, I would imagine that any deck running StoP (or other removal) has the option to "StoP,etc." your remaining creature (after Cataclysm); does this happen often (for example, versus RW-Gobs, Deadguy) ?

The new AS seems to have a medium clock and Cataclysm's main role seems to bring down fast aggro (e.g. Gobs) to its speed and possibly gain an advantage from it. Cat. also looks like good resource denial against Combo and Control. Did I miss something here; is there an additionnal role to Cataclysm ?

Did you test against other aggro decks like Boros (which seems to fare well on the online meta and placed well one day at TML02) ?

Anyhow, I'm sorry if these questions are of übernoobness nature, I'm new to AS (and I don't have the time to read a 60 page thread).

One last thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but the new list is:

Mana (22)
17 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (24)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Razor Golem
4 Soltari Priest
4 Silver Knight
4 Isamaru
4 Mother of Runes

Removal, etc. (8)
4 StoP
4 Cataclysm

Equipment (6)
2 Mask of Memory
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Jitte

cianty

03-14-2007, 02:32 PM

I'm not Zilla and I certainly cannot speak for him but I've been using the Cataclysm since he suggested it and I will take this opportunaty to say how awesome this card is. When facing combo/control it is an Armageddon, when facing Goblins it is a Wrath of God. From the few games I played with the new version I feel that the Goblin matchup has improved because at the moment when you are in danger of being overwhelmed it is the card to drop and swing the game. I am amazed to see how well this works. As an additional note for fun: the last time I played new AS on MWS I was facing a 43-land.dec. The moment when he had like 12 lands on the board and an empty hand in the first game I dropped Cataclysm and it took like 10 seconds then it just said "<System> Player lost". I had to laugh hard at that sore loser.

aTn

03-14-2007, 06:45 PM

I'm sure this has been discussed for the previous build, but I think that 2-3 copies of Jotun Grunt maindeck could be a good idea (especially since Cataclysm tends to feed the graveyard).

As anyone tried cutting a few creatures for 4 Aether Vial ? Of course this wouldn't help towards the goal of being less affected by CotV@1, but it would soften the restriction of having WW to cast creatures and maybe could permit the insertion of 2-3 Wastelands in the manabase (in addition to possibly speeding up the deck a bit in terms of creatures on the board). This would probably slow the whole turn 3-4 Cataclysm plan but is it really necessary to be able to cast Cataclysm so early in the game ?

Again, these are thoughts of an Angel Stompy noob, so don't cyber wedgy me.

Zilla

03-14-2007, 07:23 PM

What is your overall strategy against Goblins (playing the new mono-W build) ? In particular, does Goblins recuperate from a Cataclysm or is it usually game-over ?
If you play it correctly, Cataclysm is usually game over. The way to play Goblins is quite simple. First, stall in the early game so you survive to the midgame. Commit your 1cc dudes to the board early as chump blockers for Lackey. Trade with Piledriver or Warchief whenever you can. Resolve a Silver Knight or a Razor Golem (or both) and use them defensively as long as you can.

In order to get around this kind of defense, Goblins absolutely has to overcommit to the board. They either have to build up enough threats to attack with massive Piledrivers, or they have to commit a bunch of creatures and mana to the board to start going to the dome with Siege-Gang. That's what makes Cataclysm so strong here; your early game strategy forces them to overcommit, and Cataclysm destroys them for doing so.

You want to wait to cast Cataclysm until as late in the game as possible. Stall the ground until they've mostly emptied their hand. Try to get an active SoFI or Jitte equipped if you can. If you have an equipped Knight or Golem when you cast Cataclysm, they basically can't win.

Also, the list you put up there is correct. I've been testing Knight of the Holy Nimbus in the Soltari Priest slot, and it's pretty decent. It's better in some matchups and worse in others, and needs more testing.

I'm sure this has been discussed for the previous build, but I think that 2-3 copies of Jotun Grunt maindeck could be a good idea (especially since Cataclysm tends to feed the graveyard).
It's actually been discussed a page back from this one. I know 60 pages is cumbersome, but try to read a couple pages back at least, if you're really interested in the archetype. Grunt's been tested in the Cataclysm build and it's quite bad. Go back a page to find out why.

As anyone tried cutting a few creatures for 4 Aether Vial?
This has ben discussed also, although it's further back in the thread. I've tested Vial repeatedly in the deck and every time it's been bad. Before, they were bad because if you cut threats for them they get inherently weaker; unlike Goblins, you don't have an unending stream of threats to play with them. If you cut threats for Vials, you'll have about 20 threats total, which really isn't enough to justify them.

If you cut mana sources for them, it pretty much has to be Tombs, because the deck is already as low on white sources as it can get while still remaining consistent. If you remove Tombs, your Angels and your equipment all become inherently weaker, and these cards are quite central to the deck's overall strategy.

In the Cataclysm build, Vial is even worse. Look at the curve: You have 8 1cc creatures, 8 2cc, no 3cc, no 4cc, no 5cc, and 8 6cc creatures. The converted casting costs of your creatures are all over the map, which means Vial is not going to consistently allow you to play the threats you want to play.

Furthermore, unlike decks like Fish or Goblins, there's not a whole lot else to be doing with your mana. With Fish, Vial frees up mana for cantrips and counters. With Goblins it frees up mana for disruption in the form of Wasteland and Port. With Angel Stompy, your main focus should be to cast a creature, equip it, disrupt the opponent, and ride that one threat to victory. If that threat is removed you want to replace it with another, equip it, and try again. Vial lends itself well to a deck that wants to be constantly committing creatures to the board. That isn't the case with Angel Stompy.

vampire-lord

03-15-2007, 12:31 PM

What do you think about calciderm?? I think it would be awesome with Cataclysm cause it's untargetable and i know no Deck which could easily handel such a big creature or what do you think about it?

Cait_Sith

03-15-2007, 12:39 PM

They get 1 chump blocker and Calciderm gets 3 attacks. It isn't a guaranteed win, which is what Cataclysm normally gives you.

Tacosnape

03-15-2007, 01:01 PM

What do you think about calciderm?? I think it would be awesome with Cataclysm cause it's untargetable and i know no Deck which could easily handel such a big creature or what do you think about it?

You can't equip a Calciderm.

Zilla, how often do you select Razor Golem as your Artifact to keep under Cataclysm? I have a long standing love-hate relationship with the Golem (I hold the Guinness World Record for having Razor Golem destroyed by Tin-Street Hooligan and/or Molder Slug), but I'm generally curious as I can see the point.

Zilla

03-15-2007, 04:46 PM

What do you think about calciderm?? I think it would be awesome with Cataclysm cause it's untargetable and i know no Deck which could easily handel such a big creature or what do you think about it?
Caliciderm can't be equipped. Calciderm goes away after 3 turns. Caliciderm costs 4, which means you have to cast it on the turn you should be casting Cataclysm. It's very not good.

Zilla, how often do you select Razor Golem as your Artifact to keep under Cataclysm?
If I have no equipment, I obviously count it as my artifact. If I do have equpiment, I will sometimes count it as my creature. It really depends upon the game state and what you're playing against. The bottom line is that you want one of two things directly after Cataclysm resolves: two creatures, or one creature with equipment. The choice to keep Golem is obviously circumstantial. Against a deck with disenchant effects, I might not keep it as my creature. Against a deck like Goblins, I would keep it over anything but an equipped Silver Knight, since it can play both offense and defense.

Tacosnape

03-16-2007, 02:15 AM

Since Cataclysm is the new hot card in this deck, has anyone considered the possibility of running, like, Reconnaissance? (God, if that suggestion were any scrubbier, it could clean my bathtub.)

For one W, It's an enchantment that would stay for the Cataclysm, which we seem to be lacking. It also gives all your creatures virtual vigilance, letting them all play both offense and defense (You can untap them after the damage is dealt but before the end of combat,) enables incredibly silly shit with First Strike and Equipment, and enables you to safely swing with a series of smaller creatures into a single large creature, like a Werebear or a Myr Enforcer or whatever.

Zilla

03-16-2007, 05:24 AM

Heh. Yup, that's pretty scrubby. It's not an awful idea. The problem is, it does nothing at all to advance your game against combo and control, and those are your difficult matchups. For the most part, Reconnaissance will only improve your strong matchups, with the possible exception of Thresh. If I were going to add enchantments for Cataclysm synergy, I think it would be for one that advances my game in all matchups, along the lines of Crusade. The problem is that you'd have to cut actual threats for it, which makes your equipment strategy less reliable, which theoretically weakens the rest of the deck overall. Short of some totally amazing enchantment which is actually better than equipment, I'm not sure it's really feasible.

Tacosnape

03-16-2007, 12:16 PM

Geh. I just feel there needs to be an Enchantment somewhere to ridiculously maximize Cataclysm.

What about Aura of Silence over Disenchant, then, in sideboard or wherever? Post Cataclysm, it would give the opponent fits if they tried to play any new artifacts or enchantments, or alternately it would allow you to hit the key artifact or enchantment your opponent keeps. Or, you know, it could just hit an artifact or enchantment outside of the Cataclysm altogether, for one mana more.

I used to run it in White Weenie strictly because it dodged the dreaded Chalice for 2, but this deck fears that far less, so I'm less inclined to trumpet the Aura having not tested it yet (I'm in the process of acquiring all the cards for the deck.)

Zilla

03-16-2007, 04:31 PM

Ophidian

03-16-2007, 05:01 PM

Zilla

03-16-2007, 06:41 PM

Again, it's a 4cc card. You want to be casting Cataclysm on turn 4, not a 4cc enchantment. Also, it's incorrect to assume that you'll have Thresh after Cataclysm. You often have only 4-5 cards in the yard after an early Cataclysm. It's important to remember that this deck has only 4 instants. Cataclysm only puts 2-3 lands in your yard, and if you're playing correctly, you're not sending more than one of your own creatures to the yard with Cataclysm. The deck needs early game punch; it really can't afford to get any slower against combo. And again, in order to make room for enchantments, you have to cut creatures or equipment, which inherently weakens your overall strategy.

Adding enchantments just to have synergy with Cataclysm easily falls prey to the Danger of Cool Things. For an enchantment to warrant inclusion here, it absolutely must be better than what it's replacing. Empyrial Armor is probably the closest thing I can think of that might fit into this category, but it opens you up to two-for-ones, which is something equipment doesn't do.

Bahamuth

03-17-2007, 03:48 AM

I'm really sorry if this is a stupid question, but why only 1 Flagstones of Trokair? It seems like it would be really good in multiples with Cacaclysm. Is it just to make sure you can cast Razor Golem earlier?

frogboy

03-17-2007, 04:01 AM

Flagstones is very mediocre in multiples. It's legendary.

And yeah, missing your turn three Golem sucks.

Volt

03-17-2007, 04:13 AM

Just wanted to mention that Zilla's new mono-white list plays beautifully. I took it to my local tourney Friday night and wrecked people with it. The decklist is highly refined. Don't screw it up by trying to squeeze goofy enchantments into the deck. Play creatures, equipment, Cataclysm, win.

Kokusho17

03-17-2007, 09:24 AM

What is the current decklist + sb. or what page of this thread is it on
(too lazy to look) :tongue:

Faluzure

03-17-2007, 10:52 AM

What is the current decklist + sb. or what page of this thread is it on
(too lazy to look) :tongue:

Try the last page. It is however, missing a sideboard.

Volt

03-17-2007, 11:31 AM

Try the last page. It is however, missing a sideboard.

Suggested sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt

Lego

03-17-2007, 11:35 AM

Try the last page. It is however, missing a sideboard.

That list is correct, although ZillA is testing Knight of the Holy Nimbus in place of Soltari Priest. I've considered ditching Mask of Memory for another Jitte and Sword, as well. Don't get me wrong, Mask is great, but dropping Creature, Equipment, Cataclysm you want the one creature you keep to be able to trump whatever they've kept, and Jitte and Sword help there more than Mask.

As for a sideboard, it must start with 4 Chalice, 4 Glowrider. I'd go with something like:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider
2 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant/Pithing Needle

Your biggest problem matchup is combo, and this board gives you 10 cards to board in here. An early Chalice or Glowrider followed up by a threat and Geddon/Cataclysm is your plan here. If you see a lot of TES/Iggy and want to win, that last slot can become Null Rod.

You should already be mauling Goblins (They have no answer to Cataclysm) and most other straight aggro. Board control usually scoops to Cataclysm, and Landstill like decks have always been a good match (Cataclysm as another must-answer just makes it better.) Fish variants are still fairly difficult matchups, but you've got good threats and they've got to answer a lot of stuff.

Then again, know that I say all of that without having actually tested mono-white since shortly after the last time I T8ed with it. In fact, I don't even know why I'm saying any of this. There's the board I would play :smile:

Tacosnape

03-17-2007, 12:50 PM

Could be a decent SB option. Just remember that the typical ideal turn to be playing Cataclsym is on turn 4. You have three pressing goals before that time: cast a creature, cast an equipment, equip the creature. Where are you going to find the time to cast a 3cc enchantment along with that? Or even a 1cc enchantment? The bottom line is that if an enchantment is to be added, it has to be because the enchantment is very strong on its own, not just because it has synergy with Cataclysm.

Okay, so, we'll throw Reconnaissance out the window, since it's cutesy.

Aura of Silence, though, could fill Seal of Cleansing's SB slot without disrupting the deck. It's powerful on its own against a large number of decks such as Affinity, Enchantress, or against any deck that just needs an artifact or enchantment out and is a little tight on mana. And as established, it's nuts with Cataclysm.

The reason I don't think it's that far off in left field to fit on the curve is this: A lot of the time you would board it in, you're more worried about artifacts and enchantments over creatures, and therefore it's not as absolutely crucial to get the equipment on before Cataclysming.

I can definitely see, however, where the extra mana could be a drawback (Post Cataclysm, for instance.) If only it cost 2W over 1WW.

The decklist is highly refined. Don't screw it up by trying to squeeze goofy enchantments into the deck. Play creatures, equipment, Cataclysm, win.

Okay. Let's all stop posting with suggestions altogether and just lock the thread. And let's do that for all of the -other- threads, also, since clearly good decks have no room to evolve.:tongue:

laststepdown

03-17-2007, 12:55 PM

Geh. I just feel there needs to be an Enchantment somewhere to ridiculously maximize Cataclysm.

:*(

Land Tax, where art though?

That's the only one I can think of that even comes close to being as awesome as the rest of this deck. Brainstorming right now I think after a Clysm, Mana Tithe would actually be really hot sideboard material. Could Chalice potentially be Rule of Law? I dunno. White always has this problem. Enlightened Tutor would be so much better if there were more options for it.
Nodes(ummm no), SoCo(again, nope), Worship(way too expensive),Rule of Law(well this one for some reason tastes just right.).
Anyway, major props Zilla, for adding another deck I need to get all the cards for.

Tacosnape

03-17-2007, 02:10 PM

:*(

Land Tax, where art though?

That's the only one I can think of that even comes close to being as awesome as the rest of this deck. Brainstorming right now I think after a Clysm, Mana Tithe would actually be really hot sideboard material. Could Chalice potentially be Rule of Law? I dunno. White always has this problem. Enlightened Tutor would be so much better if there were more options for it.
Nodes(ummm no), SoCo(again, nope), Worship(way too expensive),Rule of Law(well this one for some reason tastes just right.).
Anyway, major props Zilla, for adding another deck I need to get all the cards for.

The problem with Rule of Law over Chalice is that, well, Chalice is usually better. Granted, Rule of Law doesn't generally kick our own asses like Chalice can, but still.

Rule of Law is usually going to come down turn two or three. This can often be a hair too slow to do much good against Epic Storm after they drop a quick Empty the Warrens (Or worse, Tendrils), and relying on Cataclysm to stop the Goblins can, again, be a hair too slow. Chalice for 0 is going to come down turn one and is a lot more difficult for them to play around.

The other big factor to consider is that your other combo killer, Glowrider, has the same exact cost as Rule of Law, meaning that as Chalice comes down for 0 or 2, it can come down before Glowrider instead of your combo pieces all competing for the same mana slot and having to mulligan for the acceleration to use them.

Kind of a shame the Opals don't stay Enchantments when they transform. Be nice to Cataclysm and have 3 creatures on the board.

Nihil Credo

03-17-2007, 04:51 PM

ZillA is testing Knight of the Holy Nimbus in place of Soltari Priest.
I was considering playing Knight too, but I thought I'd put it in place of Silver Knight. Soltari Priest's cheap unblockability is particularly useful in triggering SoFI (and to a lesser extent Mask of Memory) around such blockers as Mishra's Factory or an opposing Mother of Runes (HanniFish is gaining popularity). While Knight of the Holy Nimbus fills a very similar role to Silver Knight - they're both 2/2s with combat-enhancing abilities.

Of course this worsens the Goblin matchup more than just replacing Soltari Pirest. It is assumed that you are willing to do that (because Goblins aren't an overwhelming presence in your meta).

Now that I think of it, it might be best to do some kind of split. In particular, Knights of the Holy Nimbus are awesome in multiples, but double Silver Knights or Priests are not *that* much more powerful than a single one (since their most common role is to scare off x/2s and to connect with Equipment, respectively). I'm going to test 4 KotHN / 2 SK / 2 SP.

xsockmonkeyx

03-17-2007, 05:31 PM

That list is correct, although ZillA is testing Knight of the Holy Nimbus in place of Soltari Priest. I've considered ditching Mask of Memory for another Jitte and Sword, as well. Don't get me wrong, Mask is great, but dropping Creature, Equipment, Cataclysm you want the one creature you keep to be able to trump whatever they've kept, and Jitte and Sword help there more than Mask.

Im currently testing KotHN in the same slot. I found Priest to clash a bit with Cataclysm as you wont usually keep it if you have a better creature to choose and unnecessary after Cataclysm because the board is clear. The knight however is a house after a Cataclysm and isnt a bad creature to choose in a pinch.

Another option is Freewind Falcon for its evasion and pro: red. My reasoning is that even after a Cataclysm it is by no means game over for goblins. If you drop a falcon after cataclysm you can better concentrate on pushing damage through thanks to it's defense and then finishing them off with it's evasion (should you need to). Of course you could say the same thing for Serra Avenger, but at least you can drop the falcon on turn 2 should you need it.

With the Priest out Im having the same angst regarding the equipment choices.

I think Empyrial Armor might still be worth testing despite the 2 for 1 possibiliies, maybe as a replacement for mask. If the thing sticks and they cant remove it its pretty much game.

Lego

03-19-2007, 12:31 PM

I think Empyrial Armor might still be worth testing despite the 2 for 1 possibiliies, maybe as a replacement for mask. If the thing sticks and they cant remove it its pretty much game.

If you're going to test Empyrial Armor, I'd test Empyrial Plating as well. It costs one more, but allows Ancient Tomb to become a factor, and won't result in 2-for-1s. I've never tested it, just throwing it out there. It seems worse than 3 SoFI/3 Jitte, for instance, but I'm just speculating.

Nihil Credo

03-19-2007, 12:50 PM

If you're going to test Empyrial Armor, I'd test Empyrial Plating as well. It costs one more, but allows Ancient Tomb to become a factor, and won't result in 2-for-1s. I've never tested it, just throwing it out there. It seems worse than 3 SoFI/3 Jitte, for instance, but I'm just speculating.
Actually, I don't think the Empyrial cards are going to be very good. Ever since Tithe was cut from the deck, I've found myself emptying my hand fairly quickly. The only times I have a lot of cards in hand are when I'm winning with Sword of Fire and Ice, or post-Cataclysm (in which case I'd rather have a SoFI/Jitte on the guy, to stop the opponent from recovering).

Zilla

03-20-2007, 07:31 AM

Oh man, where to start:

On why only one Flagstones: Yes, it's because of Razor Golem. I tested 2 Flagstones for a long time and they were preventing me from casting turn 3 Golem far too often for my liking. I'm confident that one is the correct number, and if not 1, then 0.

On Rule of Law vs. Chalice: It's tempting, because Rule of Law is actually harder for Storm combo to play around than Chalice. However, it comes down 1-2 turns later, and that is highly relevant. The most important issue, however, is that Chalice is useful in more than just the combo matchups. It's a total house against decks like Zoo, Thresh and Burn. Its flexibility is the reason it gets the nod over Rule of Law. In theory, Rule could be run over Glowrider, but Glowrider provides an additional clock against combo, and again, is actually useful outside of the combo matchup.

On Land Tax: I'd be super unsurprised to see it unbanned in the near future. That said, I don't think you'd want to run it here. You have no way to abuse it. Against a lot of decks, you'll have more land than your opponent, especially after Cataclysm. By and large, Land Tax is a tool for control, and this deck is not a control deck.

On dropping Masks of Memory: I've been tempted to in the past myself. However, they actually have excellent synergy with Cataclysm, particularly because they can be cast and equipped before turn 4, which is when you want to be casting Cataclysm. An equipped Mask post Cataclysm means you get to dig deeper and filter your draws for a quicker rebound. The main problem with both Jitte and SoFI is that they typically force you to wait a turn longer than you'd like to cast Cataclysm. Mask is tasty because it's fast.

On Silver Knight vs. Knight of the Holy Nimbus vs. Soltari Priest: The statement that Silver Knights don't get any better in multiples is wrong. Two Silver Knights means an almost unwinnable game for Goblins. Two Silver Knights means you can block and kill Threshed Mongeese and Werebears all day long, and they don't get to kill any of your mans. First striking creatures are inherently stronger in multiples.

The main reason I'd consider swapping out Priests is because despite their evasion, their inability to block often costs you games. In the end, I really thing these three creatures are probably interchangeable and metagame dependent. More testing is required to say so definiteively.

About Empyrial Armor etc.: Danger of Cool Things. The aura version opens you up to two for ones. They're too conditional. I often slowplay with the deck and have lots of cards in hand, but what if my opponent is playing discard? What if I need to commit more cards to the board? Jitte and SofI don't make me answer these questions. They just massacre little men and draw me cards. Sign me up.

Anyway, I think there was mroe I wanted to say but I'm tired for now. I'm glad you guys are liking the new build. I'm going to be restarting the thread soon so we can archive this 60+ page monstrosity. Thanks for bearing with me.

Tacosnape

03-20-2007, 02:44 PM

Okay, I have a few questions after starting to work with this deck more.

1. What the hell do you do when you get 2-3 Cataclysms clogging up your hand? Would it be unfeasible to try Cataclysm as a 3-of instead of a 4? I find it difficult to rebound on mana to be able to cast it more than once, and certainly not more than twice.

2. Would White Knight be a candidate for that Soltari Priest slot? The 2/2 First Strike is nice, meaning Goblins have to shoot it rather than try to swing through it. He's also superior to Silver Knight once equipped with a SOFI, as now he has protection from black, blue, and red. Plus, while Pro-Black is far weaker than Pro-Red in this format, he does manage to get in the face of things like Nantuko Shade, Phyrexian Negator, and other pesky black creatures. The reason I like him over Knight of the Holy Nimbus (, Batman!) has to do with the fact that White Knight's far better at that initial block in instances where the other guy's taken the early aggro role. That and there's no Pithing Needle in maindeck to seriously abuse Nimbus.

3. How do we not die to Life From The Loam-based control decks, as they tend to keep Land/Mox after a Cataclysm and refuel effortlessly?

Zilla

03-20-2007, 05:09 PM

1. What the hell do you do when you get 2-3 Cataclysms clogging up your hand? Would it be unfeasible to try Cataclysm as a 3-of instead of a 4? I find it difficult to rebound on mana to be able to cast it more than once, and certainly not more than twice.
It wouldn't be unfeasible, but in most metagames I wouldn't do it. I rarely mind having two Cataclysms in hand, because they're so integral to the way your deck functions. Having multiples means you have another shot if the first is countered. And if the first one resolves, it rarely matters that you have another one, because you're probably already winning. If I did drop one, it would probably be for another Mask or SoFI, but again I'd be very hesitant to.

2. Would White Knight be a candidate for that Soltari Priest slot?
If your metagame warranted it, sure. I think it would require a high contingent of black aggro to make me want to do it though. It bears noting that black-based aggro is already pretty positive for you as well, so it might be overkill. But as I mentioned in my last post, First Strikers get progressively better the more you have, so it's perhaps a viable option in the right metagame.

That said, I want to point out that Silver and White Knights mostly suck in the Thresh matchup, where Holy Nimbus isn't so bad. The flanking means they can't chump him with Mongoose, and their tight mana curve forces them to choose between countering/cantripping or permanently killing your dude.

3. How do we not die to Life From The Loam-based control decks, as they tend to keep Land/Mox after a Cataclysm and refuel effortlessly?
Good question, and a really hard one to answer, because there's no widely accepted list. People can't even decide if it should be in aggro, control, or aggro-control. I haven't done all that much testing against it for this reason. But if I had to venture a guess, I would suggest a couple things to try:

1. Side in Crypts. Obviously they don't stop Loam cold, but you can use it to get rid of parts of their draw engine, at least, and if they're not careful enough to leave open mana, you can catch their Loam too.

2. Don't assume that because they're running Loam that land destruction isn't a viable strategy against them. Loam control decks are ass slow. Knocking them down to 0-1 lands when you have threats on the board means a few turns' worth of dredging Loam and playing lands to reestablish anything resembling an ability to control the board. I'd say you should try siding in a couple Armageddons to go with the Cataclysms and just relentlessly attack their manabase while pinging at them with your dudes. I don't know if this tactic will work... I suppose I'll have to test it.

3. When all else fails, you can run Pithing Needle for their cycling lands. It's not great, but it can work.

xsockmonkeyx

03-20-2007, 05:18 PM

Michael Keller

03-20-2007, 05:29 PM

I think it's funny how people toss in Crypts against Loam Control or any Loam based deck. Depending on meta - consider Ankh of Mishra - much more devastating. Crypts are obviously a solid choice, too. You get those people on MWS playing nothing but LftL and I just play that and it says, "Player Lost"...just something to think about.

Zilla

03-20-2007, 07:39 PM

IMO Hand of Honor is superior to White Knight in legacy. While they are both Pro: Black and trump 2/2's in combat the Hand has the advantage of tackling Mongooses, Kird Apes, and Rotting Giants.
This is true, but it neglects to address the extreme synergy that first strikers have both with one and another, and with Jitte. First strike with Jitte means you get counters before your opponent's creature deals damage. This really screws with their combat math, and allows your creatures to survive combat with much larger threats. Something to consider.

I think it's funny how people toss in Crypts against Loam Control or any Loam based deck. Depending on meta - consider Ankh of Mishra - much more devastating.
Clearly. The problem is that a) Ankh also hurts you a great deal because your deck is very mana hungry, particularly after Cataclysm, and b) it's much, much more narrow than Crypt in this format. I suggested Crypt not because I consider it to be an excellent answer to Loam, but because it's already in the sideboard and it does help to mitigate its effectiveness somewhat.

Michael Keller

03-20-2007, 08:17 PM

This is true, but it neglects to address the extreme synergy that first strikers have both with one and another, and with Jitte. First strike with Jitte means you get counters before your opponent's creature deals damage. This really screws with their combat math, and allows your creatures to survive combat with much larger threats. Something to consider.

Clearly. The problem is that a) Ankh also hurts you a great deal because your deck is very mana hungry, particularly after Cataclysm, and b) it's much, much more narrow than Crypt in this format. I suggested Crypt not because I consider it to be an excellent answer to Loam, but because it's already in the sideboard and it does help to mitigate its effectiveness somewhat.

Point well taken. Obviously in a deck that is mana hungry, playing an Ankh could spell trouble for yourself as well. But situational adjustment can always take precedent depending on your meta. Because Crypt is more one-dimensional than Ankh, the unpredictability of Ankh is what makes it too risky to play. But to be honest, boarding it in against a deck which clearly relies on basically nothing but lands will benefit you more than your opponent. Crypt, however, is just too good to pass up. It has become almost a staple of any sideboard in any meta.

xsockmonkeyx

03-20-2007, 08:54 PM

You make a good point about first strike and its synergy with other first striker on defense. However, that synergy is only available on defense (unless you play Cooperation). Bushido is probably the stronger ability on offense. If you have a White Knight and your opponent has a 3/3 mongoose you cant attack unless you have some kind of equipment trick. A Hand of Honor on the other hand can attack without carrying anything and still take out the mongoose thanks to Bushido. I guess the superior card really depends on what you want to do.

Tacosnape

03-20-2007, 09:06 PM

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the number of matchups we'd want Hand of Honor in over White Knight (assuming we play either) is...1?

It's worth pointing out that a lot of Threshold decks now pack Stifle in board. Running too many Flanking/Bushido guys might warrant boarding it in. I'm going to personally laugh at the first person to lose a Hand of Honor or a Holy Nimbus to a Nimble Mongoose because the Bushido or Flanking trigger got Stifled.

Besides that, I question how much it matters that they can swing in through the Mongoose. Outside of Cataclysm situations, they can hold the fort down with Werebear and swing with the Goose if need be. Post-Cataclysm, all this means is that without equipment, you're now losing the damage race.

xsockmonkeyx

03-20-2007, 09:14 PM

Yeah, they are both pretty crappy. I prefer KotHN much more to be perfectly honest. But if they printed a 2/2 Pro Red Bushido then I would probably prefer that.

Tacosnape

03-21-2007, 03:14 AM

But if they printed a 2/2 Pro Red Bushido then I would probably prefer that.

True that. But then, if Ifs and Buts were Candy and Nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.

tivadar

03-22-2007, 01:54 PM

Ok, so I've been working something close to this in the UW build I had going. It started as puritans, but I found either Parallax Wave or Parallax Tide was somewhat lacking. I've been toying with cataclysm a bit. The main differences are that I can't run Razor Golem, however, I can do Serendib, who's just as good, if not better.

Anyways, some issues:

In the Faerie Stompy Matchup: Does Cataclysm actually work? Their creatures are for the most part bigger than yours. The only thing it does do is get rid of either their equipment or a chalice. However, they'll probably be chalicing the next turn. Also, one of the BIG advantages in this matchup (as well as goblins) was parallax wave. Do you miss that here? The builds I've been toying with keep Wave, it's just too amazing.

In Goblins: While you're right that they'll occassionally have to overcommit, a single vial nullifies your cataclysm (essentially) and lets them recover ridiculously fast. They've got better card advantage than you do. NTM, post-board, they're bringing in their artifact hate, which can lead to them shattering spreeing you to death. They won't worry about your creatures with that.

In Threshold: Basically, I think you've weakened this matchup quite a bit. You're basically saying "here, Threshold, here's those 7 cards you need". All of their spells cost at most 2-3, so they won't care about running on 1 land. And their geese get around all your removal.

I can't see this being better against goblins, but it's probably about even.
I think this is a big win in the combo/control matchups, where killing lands rock.
I think this hurts your threshold matchup, where Cataclysm is almost strictly inferior to Wave.

Brizzle

03-22-2007, 02:34 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this deck (even the Cataclysm build) already have an excellent matchup against Goblins and Thresh? I thought combo was where this deck had the most trouble already. Cataclysm seems like an awesome weapon to fill this deck's weak spots, especially if combined with 'geddons in the SB.

Phantom

03-22-2007, 02:43 PM

I think this is a big win in the combo/control matchups, where killing lands rock.

Is this still true? I guess it might vary from control deck to control deck (I can see Landstill fighting through it with some ease) but is it effective combo hate these days? TES and IGGy both operate on a very low number of land (I believe) and I don't think Solidarity is ever going to let this resolve, which can be a bump to their tempo, but that will only help if there's a fast clock, and the new builds clock is actually slower thanks to the absence of Chrome Mox.

I'm not exactly a combo (or control for that matter) expert, so correct me if I'm wrong here.

Volt

03-22-2007, 03:04 PM

Is this still true? I guess it might vary from control deck to control deck (I can see Landstill fighting through it with some ease) but is it effective combo hate these days? TES and IGGy both operate on a very low number of land (I believe) and I don't think Solidarity is ever going to let this resolve, which can be a bump to their tempo, but that will only help if there's a fast clock, and the new builds clock is actually slower thanks to the absence of Chrome Mox.

I'm not exactly a combo (or control for that matter) expert, so correct me if I'm wrong here.

You generally lose to combo in game 1, even with Cataclysm. The idea is to try to win games 2 and 3 by siding in Chalice, Glowrider, and Geddon to complement the Cataclysm strategy.

Zilla

03-22-2007, 04:48 PM

In the Faerie Stompy Matchup: Does Cataclysm actually work?
In this matchup? No. Faerie Stompy and Affinity are admittedly more difficult with Cataclysm in place of Parallax Wave, because they're similarly equipped to abuse Cataclysm's effects. They're probably worth siding out games 2 and 3 in these matchups for Disenchants. In nearly every other matchup besides these two, Cataclysm is a superior control element.

In Goblins: While you're right that they'll occassionally have to overcommit, a single vial nullifies your cataclysm (essentially) and lets them recover ridiculously fast.
Your analysis is simply not accurate, because it incorrectly assumes that you cast Cataclysm as early as possible. With Goblins, you simply stall up the ground with Knights and Golems. In order for them to put any kind of real pressure on you, they have to commit their entire hand to the board, and that is when you play Cataclysm. Vial is really quite shitty with an empty hand. They can theoretically topdeck into a Ringleader and get back in the game, but it's never happened that way in my fairly extensive testing.

The reason Cataclysm is much stronger than Wave here is because with Wave, you would play the same stall tactic, but by the late game Wave wouldn't be enough to completely answer their momentum. Cataclysm does, and it flat out wins you games.

In Threshold: Basically, I think you've weakened this matchup quite a bit.
No, the Threshold matchup is stronger, but it has nothing to do with Cataclysm. Cataclysm is no more or less effective than Parallax Wave in this matchup; they're both not particularly effective. I side out Cataclysms here and bring in Chalices, Crypts, and Glowriders.

The reason the matchup is better than it was before, however, is because Razor Golem kills Mongeese. Equipped with a SoFI or Jitte, it can hold every threat in their deck at bay while still playing offense.

The Thresh matchup isn't weaker, it's stronger.

I can't see this being better against goblins, but it's probably about even.
It is much much better against Goblins if you play it correctly. Again, don't cast Cataclysm as early as possible in this matchup. Stall on the ground for as long as you possibly can, let them empty their hand, and then cast Cataclysm. This matchup has gotten significantly better against Goblins since the shift to Cataclysm.

I think this is a big win in the combo/control matchups, where killing lands rock.
Clearly.

I think this hurts your threshold matchup, where Cataclysm is almost strictly inferior to Wave.
Irrellevant. They're both terrible.

DeDennis

03-23-2007, 11:21 AM

Can someone tell me the sideboard strategies or where I can find these strategies since Im not able to find them while browsing through the pages.

Zilla

03-23-2007, 04:42 PM

Can someone tell me the sideboard strategies or where I can find these strategies since Im not able to find them while browsing through the pages.
I intend to do so in great depth when I recreate the thread for thiss deck soon. In the meanwhile, do you have questions about any specific matchups?

DeDennis

03-24-2007, 04:19 AM

Well im pretty new to the legacy format and decided angel stompy is a fun deck to begin with($ also plays a game in this) and the explanations about how to play vs certain decks like goblins helped out al lot.

The main problem is sideboard strategies. I dont really have a problem with choosing what to side in but what to side out.

Some matchups:

Goblins
Treshhold (r + w)
Affinity
Terrageddon
high tide and other combo

Thanks for the help!

Zilla

03-24-2007, 06:13 AM

Goblins: No changes after board. You could theoretically bring in Pithing Needle for Mask of Memory if you're running them, but you don't really need anything more to win this matchup. It is extremely positive if played correctly. In the early game, play highly defensively. Don't take any unnecessary risks. It's quite easy to hold off their entire horde with just a couple Silver Knights or Razor Golems or some combination of the two. This forces them to go for an alpha strike, which requires heavy commitment to the board. Once they've depleted most of their hand, wreck them with Cataclysm. If you have no Cataclysm available, get a Silver Knight or Razor Golem equipped with Jitte or SoFI and wreck their board that way.

Treshhold: This is a tough call, actually, and despite having tested this matchup many many times over, I'm still not precisely sure what the correct SB strategy is here. You obviously bring in all four Chalices and both Crypts. I typically side out 4 Cataclysm and 2 Swords to Plowshares for these. (The StP's are a questionable choice. They're dead under a Chalice for 1, and overall there aren't that many targets for them in the deck, but they can handily clear up the board when you need them to. It's a tough call.)

Beyond that, I will often side out 4 Silver Knight for 4 Glowrider. Silver Knight is really the weakest threat in your deck against Threshold. Except in multiples, it won't kill or even trade with any of their threats post Thresh. Glowrider is equally subpar from a combat standpoint, but it does a fantastically good job of slowing their development and exploiting their extremely low manacurve.

In the end, this matchup is extremely complex. I've tested it a ton and I'm still not totally comfortable saying that these are the correct choices. Chalice and Crpyt are a given. Beyond that, I need to test about a hundred more games to be sure of anything.

Affinity: Out go Cataclysms, in come Disenchants. Affinity simply has too many ways to abuse Cataclysm. The modular mechanic means that it can turn all its threats into a single big one, which is precisely your own strategy under Cataclysm. Instead, try to overwhelm them with threats and take out their biggest threats with targeted spot removal in StP and Disenchant.

Terrageddon: No idea. I've never tested against it and it's never been a major metagame concern for me in development. Presumably you want to side out Cataclysm, since they're pretty okay with losing all their lands and junk. Obviously Crypt comes in here. Beyond that, I honestly don't know. I'll try to test it when I get some time.

High Tide: This one's pretty easy. You bring in 4 Chalice for 4 StP (no brainer) and you replace all the equipment with 4 Glowrider and 2 Armageddon. You want to play this one as aggressively as possible. Try to resolve a Chalice for one first and foremost, and a Glowrider as soon as possible. After turn 3 or 4, try to resolve a Cataclysm or Armageddon to reset their mana. In the meanwhile, be playing threats as aggressively as possible. This matchup is truly luck of the draw. You're very likely to lose game one (though it's possible to steal a game here or there), but you have 14 hate cards games 2 and 3, so those are winnable with a bit of luck.

Other Combo: Depends very much on the combo, but it's fairly safe to assume we're talking about IGG and TES. Side out StP and Cataclysm for Chalice and Glowrider. Mull aggressively for Chalice. Be aware that Chalice alone doesn't win games. It's a speedbump, and it either needs to be reinforced with more disruption or exploited as aggressively as possible. Both decks are extremely reliant on LED. Drop Chalice for 0 first, and if you get a second, drop it for 1. If you can resolve two pieces of hate (some combination of Chalice and Glowrider), you're very likely to win the game. Mull and play very aggressively.

DeDennis

03-24-2007, 06:23 AM

Thank you very much!

Still some questions about the combo m/u:

-Doesn't chalice at 1 hurt you too much since you still got 8 1cc in the deck after sideboarding?

-Should you keep in mind that some stormcombo sideboard in a manplan? (negator's yawg tomb etc)

al the great

03-30-2007, 09:02 AM

good tips.

urdjur

04-09-2007, 10:24 AM

Hadn't checked the thread out for a while, so I thought I'd stop by and give it my $.02. The goal of this deck, as Godzilla so succintly put it, is generally to play a creature and an artifact by turn three, and Cataclysm by turn 4. We will be able to play Cataclysm by turn 4 more than 50% of the games, so I think a good deal of optimization should be geared towards playing that creature and artifact turns 1-3. The other part of the optimization, of course, should be geared towards the situation when we don't draw or resolve Cataclysm. These are the big issues to me:

1. Creature-to-artifact ratio: I count 24 creatures, 4 of which also count as artifacts, and 6 pieces of equipment. That's 24 effective creatures and 10 effective artifacts. I think it would be better to do something like 20 creatures and 14 artifacts. If you're worried about not having a creature to play equipment on, consider that you count on getting 2 plains in your hand with 18 of them in the deck, so that would be statistical hypocracy ;) 24 creatures in a deck that aims at keeping only one or two by turn 4 seems a bit much.

2. Turn 1 drops: The present list has 8 one-drops. This means you'll get at least one on the draw 65% of the time. 35% of the time, you'll either have to mulligan or not use your turn 1 mana. To me, this is not satisfying. StP is technically something you can use on turn 1, but you won't normally do so (possible exception: Goblin Lackey on the draw). I understand that part of this is due to CotV in the board. The problem is, white aggro is cursed to play many 1cc spells. I'm not happy with less than 12 things to cast round 1, and you'll want StP at that, so I feel white must seek answers to combo elsewhere. Not having much more than 16 1cc cards is prudent however, since you don't want your ass on a platter is someone plays Chalice for 1 on you (disenchant effects help here of course, but you don't want to rely on them).

3. High cc cards: Of the 6 equipment pieces, only Mask of Memory can be easily played before Cataclysm. Jitte requires one Ancient Tomb (SoFI requires two of them, which is very improbable). So of the 10 artifacts, we can only realistically expect to be able to cast 6 of them before Cataclysm with any consitency. Of course, we're also hard pressed to cast and equip Jitte or SoFI after Cataclysm with any speed. The same goes for Exalted Angel. If we get Angel and Tomb, we could flip it over turn 3, but then we'd have no artifact for Cataclysm. And forget about casting it afterwards. In truth, if you play it right, you won't have to drop something big after Cataclysm, since that should be game over anyway, so that point is moot. The problem is that you have 8 cards (Jitte, SoFI and Angel) that only really work as a back up plan for when you don't draw or resolve Cataclysm by turn 4, and they don't work well with the primary plan. I think more flexibility is needed here.

4. Soltari Priest slot: The last few pages of the thread has seen some debate over this, and I think this slot is heavily meta-dependent. Since I see lots of Threshold, Loam and IGG, I decided on Samurai of the Pale Curtain. It completely wrecks Loam-based decks (tacosnape brought them up a page back) when combined with Cataclysm. It also delays Threshold and fights mongeese once it gets threshold, and stalls IGG significantly. For me it's the perfect fit, but your meta may vary of course.

Those were my general thoughts. Here's a more specific list I've been tinkering with.

Mana base: I dropped the Flagstone. If you play it turns 1-3, it will prevent a turn 3 Razor Golem just as often as it will set up the Cataclysm favorably. I prefer never being denied a turn 3 golem to sometimes having an extra land after Cataclysm, since I should have won by then anyways. Thus:
18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

Creature base: I dropped Angel due to the poor synergy with Cataclysm, and put SotPC in the priest slot, so:
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Razor Golem

This leaves 18 slots to be filled. 8 of them are obviously:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm

The other 10 should be artifacts (or effective low cc enchantments, but as has been established, there are few that could be considered). However, there are also the issues of insufficient one-drops, the need for a back-up plan if you don't have Cataclysm, and fitting the mana curve turns 1-3 if you do have Cataclysm. So, here's my artifact package to solve this:

4 Steelshaper's Gift
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafted Wargear

Basically, if you can't play Isamaru or mom (35% of the time), you use Steelshaper's Gift to get the artifact you need. Jitte is prefered if you have Ancient Tomb so you can cast it turn 3. Otherwise, Grafted Wargear and Mask of Memory are your 3-drops. With Grafted Wargear, there's the occasional risk of a 2-for-1, but you can safely side it out in games 2 and 3 if you fear they are siding in artifact hate. Also, Isamaru's legendary status and only being able to keep one creature with Cataclysm anyway makes this less of a problem in this deck. If you can't risk it though, MoM is your friend as it will help you recover more quickly after Cataclysm.

If you don't draw Cataclysm, just get Jitte to hold the board until you do - or simply win with Jitte instead of Cataclysm. I removed SoFI, since I didn't think it added anything to the equipment options already present, and due to its lack of synergy with the Cataclysm curve. To summarize, this yields:

*20 effective creatures that can be played before turn 4
*12-14 effective artifacts that can be played before turn 4 (the two jitte depend on tomb)
*4 primary decisive plays on turn 4 (Cataclysm)
*6 effective secondary turn 4 plays (gift+jitte if you don't have Cataclysm)
*A balanced curve of relevant plays turns 1, 2, 3 and 4.

The sideboard for the above list is still sketchy, but basically I opt for Orim's Chant instead of CotV. I see more IGG than Solidarity, so stopping sorcery speed stuff is sufficient, and I don't want to cripple myself since I'm running 16 1-cc spells. Chant is also very useful as a counter shield/bait against permission. Leonin Bola and Manriki-Gusari cover mirror strategies (one creature with or without equipment) that are not sufficiently thwarted by Cataclysm (Faerie Stompy comes to mind).

4 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant
3 Aura of Silence
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Leonin Bola
1 Manriki-Gusari

Hope this is some food for though until the new thread opens.

Hummingbird TG

04-09-2007, 08:19 PM

There is a possibility, though, that you draw neither Cataclysm nor Jitte, and while normal Angel Stompy could operate off SoFaI and Angel, you'd be stuck with a rather crappy white Weenie deck...

Zilla

04-09-2007, 08:38 PM

urdjur:

I disagree with some of your opening assessments. That said, I'll avoid detailed commentary until I've had an opportunity to test your proposed build some.

Tacosnape

04-09-2007, 08:59 PM

If you're going to go the route of Steelshaper's Gift, I'd suggest running only 1 Wargear and 1 Mask, adding a Sword of Fire and Ice and either a Sword of Light and Shadow or another creature.

I don't think Angel has poor synergy with Cataclysm at all. They do share the same mana curve, but at the same time, in a creature-versus-creature heads up match, Exalted Angel outraces nearly everything.

urdjur

04-10-2007, 08:36 AM

Does anyone else feel that there's not enough land in this deck? I find myself wanting double white more often than I draw it, 4 mana sooner than I get it, and simply LOTS of land both before and after Cataclysm. I'm gonna try to up the land count to 24 and see how it works.

There is a possibility, though, that you draw neither Cataclysm nor Jitte, and while normal Angel Stompy could operate off SoFaI and Angel, you'd be stuck with a rather crappy white Weenie deck...

@hummingbird: There's also a possibility that Angel Stompy draws neither Cataclysm, nor Jitte, nor Angel, nor SoFI. :eek: My idea was to drop angel in favor of 4 Steelshaper's Gift that can fetch those Jitte if needed. So you need to count the Gifts as effective Jittes if you want to compare.

The way I see it, you will generally beat most aggro if you can resolve and/or keep in play at least one of the following: Jitte, Angel, Cataclysm. Which one is better depends on what you're up against specifically.

If you're going to go the route of Steelshaper's Gift, I'd suggest running only 1 Wargear and 1 Mask, adding a Sword of Fire and Ice and either a Sword of Light and Shadow or another creature.

@tacosnape: It's probably OK to go down to 1 equipment each to make it more toolboxy, but I wonder if SoFI and/or SoLS would be autoincludes in such a toolbox. I look at it this way:

If you have Cataclysm, they are costly and difficult to play. If you don't have Cataclysm, you need to commit 5 mana to the board to play a Sword, which will mean greater losses if you top deck Cataclysm. Jitte is a better fit, hits the board a turn sooner, and offers almost exactly the same benefits as SoFI and SoLS combined. SoLS also has that nifty raise effect, but it has poor synergy with SotPC.

The swords offer untargetability through protection though, which is rather nice. I've been thinking about a single copy of Lightning Greaves for the toolbox. Sometimes, you really want a 2cc artifact to fetch so there is no conflict with a turn 3 Golem already in your hand. You don't really loose a turn then either, since Golem has haste, and you have an untargetable 3/4 with vigilance after Cataclysm, plus haste for all weenies to come.

I don't think Angel has poor synergy with Cataclysm at all. They do share the same mana curve, but at the same time, in a creature-versus-creature heads up match, Exalted Angel outraces nearly everything.

You're right, it does. As I mentioned above, I think you will win most aggro games if you can keep Exalted Angel OR Jitte, OR resolve a well-timed Cataclysm.

The key question is if you think of this deck as Angel Stompy with Cataclysm thrown in, or Cataclysm Stompy with alternatives if you don't draw Cataclysm. If Cataclysm is your base, then you want to focus on artifacts and creatures turns 1-3. If Angel is your base and you can of course choose Cataclysm as a back-up. To make that back-up work more to your favor than to your opponent's, you really want to play one of six artifacts before turn 4. I find that too inconsistent.

Basically, I think Angel + Jitte works fine in a deck, and Cataclysm + Jitte also works fine. But Jitte + Angel + Cataclysm is more "good stuff" to me than a synergistic concept. I'm not saying it doesn't win you games, I'm saying I'd like something more flexible.

The question is if it's better to base a deck around a card like Exalted Angel, or around a card like Cataclysm. Right now I'm thinking Cataclysm. If you add the thoughts "Cataclysm" and the second thought it leads to, "white aggro-control", you immediately find yourself at Razor Golem and many of the traditional WW cards like StP, equipment, weenies etc. Right now, I'm trying to optimize a concept from these building blocks - I'll keep you posted. :smile:

Clark Kant

04-13-2007, 09:44 PM

It seems that the reason this deck fell off of the DTB list is because it has a poor combo matchup.

Cataclysm and Wave/Wrath/Armageddon are in my opinion the strongest white cards ever printed against all archeatypes except combo.

If we could locate a couple of more good creatures with a cc of 2W, I think a cool direction to take this deck would be to adopt the same mana curve, same manabase, and 4x Chalice configuration offered up by Fairie Stompy, giving the deck a fighting chance versus combo while running the aforementioned bombs versus aggro and control and then see where we end up. Chalice afterall is a bomb versus everything, not just combo and control.

Glowrider has always been strong creature.

Another card I like is FS's...

Aven Mindcensor 2W
Creature - Bird Wizard (TS)
Flash
Flying
If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead.

2/1

A flash card that shuts down all fetchlands and most tutors and can singlehandedly beat Thresh, landstill, many combos seems pretty damn good.

And obviously Exalted Angel is an autoinclude.

One last creature to round out the curve would be perfect imo, or perhaps exploring a blue splash for Sea Drake and possibly Trinket Mage isn't out of the question.

Do you think trying to take this deck in such a direction might be fruitful?