[Deck] Angel Stompy [Archive] - Page 6

Happy Gilmore

04-25-2007, 03:15 PM

Has anyone tested maindeck Abeyance? I can think of a few reasons why I would play this card.

1) Beats ritual-combo if they try to go off after turn 1. Is also relevant against Solidarity, but they can Remand or FoW this so it doesn't win the game.

2) Baits counters so you can resolve Cataclysm against decks with blue, either because it resolves or they dont have two counterspells.

Also, it forces Goblins to make decisions at the beginning of the turn, boosting the power of Jitte during combat, and Cataclysm if they have a Vial out. This isn't a terrific reason but it certainly isn't dead in the matchup.

What do people think?

Why Abayance over Orim's Chant?

Orims chant can only be affectively countered by FoW vs. Solidarity and they can't use it to kill you (drawing cards).

Orims chant is Timewalk for :w::w: vs. Goblins and other decks.

But most importantly, Orim's chant costs only :w: .

Of all the creatures in this deck I feel that Mom is just plain useless. I have never played Angel stompy in tournament but I have played against it plenty. They seem to just sit around hoping to protect something, I rarely see them attack even when there are no blockers, hoping they can protect the creatures actually doing damage. Wouldn't a more effective strategy be to play more threats your opponent has to deal with? I have also noticed that both angel and Wave have been cut, in my oppinion the most powerful cards in the deck. What was the reasoning for this? I guess you could make an arguement for Cataclysm over Wave, but cutting Angel for Golem and then running a manabase with all basics slows the deck down considerably.

12 Plains
3 Flagstones
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox

4 Isamaru
4 Savannah Lions
4 Silver Knight (Knights of the Holy Nimbus have horrible synergy with jitte)
4 Exhalted Angel
4 Soltari Priest

4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jitte
2 SoFI/ Mask (I prefer Mask with 4x Chrome mox in the deck)
4 Cataclysm/Wave

SB:
4 Glowrider
4 Disenchant
4 Crypt
3 Armageddon?

As I said, my personal inclination is to cut mom. Your creatures already have the relevant protection already (pro Red) and your other spells are specifically designed to make up the difference against green decks (Cataclysm and Swords). Not to mention that Jitte breaks the agro match in half.

Machinus

04-25-2007, 03:47 PM

Why Abayance over Orim's Chant?

There are a few reasons. One is that it performs almost the same role in the matchups that matters. The only reason one would include these cards is to fight combo and have better tools against permission, and both do that.

Abeyance cantrips, which makes it overall a better card to use in a mixed metagame, and the narrowness of the card way more acceptable in the matches where it is weak.

Happy Gilmore

04-25-2007, 03:55 PM

There are a few reasons. One is that it performs almost the same role in the matchups that matters. The only reason one would include these cards is to fight combo and have better tools against permission, and both do that.

Abeyance cantrips, which makes it overall a better card to use in a mixed metagame, and the narrowness of the card way more acceptable in the matches where it is weak.

The fact that it costs two means that on the draw you have no ability to stop TES or any storm based combo deck from going off. Abayance is not better than Orim's Chant vs. Solidarity for the reasons stated above. And Abayance is substancially worse vs. agro decks. Abayance can be dead at times, where Chant is never really dead. I don't see how the fact that abayance cantrips makes it an overal better card. The last time I checked Time Walk was better than Reach Through Mists against an agro deck. I contest that Chant and not Abayance is an over all better card vs. an unknown meta.

lyracian

04-25-2007, 04:40 PM

Of all the creatures in this deck I feel that Mom is just plain useless. I have never played Angel stompy in tournament but I have played against it plenty.

I am a fan of mom, but might not play four (I only own three).
Defensivly she stops the opponent playing spells and can block then tap to give herself protection from what ever she just blocked (be it Goblin, mongoose or White Knight). I will attack with her if nothing else is going on.

Happy Gilmore

04-25-2007, 05:01 PM

I am a fan of mom, but might not play four (I only own three).
Defensivly she stops the opponent playing spells and can block then tap to give herself protection from what ever she just blocked (be it Goblin, mongoose or White Knight). I will attack with her if nothing else is going on.

Thats the point, if you get in that situation Mom does very little. And if nothing else is going on you are probably loosing am I right?

lyracian

04-25-2007, 05:05 PM

Thats the point, if you get in that situation Mom does very little. And if nothing else is going on you are probably loosing am I right?

If she has nothing to do, I am usually winning (but then I do not play a lot)

Nihil Credo

04-25-2007, 05:24 PM

tivadar

04-25-2007, 06:15 PM

I have a love/hate relationship with mom, however. The problem with her is she requires you to overcommit, as she's not good by herself on the board. Of course, in the mono-white deck, I do think she's a good idea, as you'll have to overcommit anyways to beat most control/combo. Against aggro, overcommitting is rarely a problem to begin with. My problem with her was always wrath-like effects, where she pretty much guarenteed my opponent was going to 2-1 me.

Ophidian

04-25-2007, 06:17 PM

Mom > The combat phase.

Going down to 3 is acceptable. Cutting them is IMO insane. Every time you untap with Mom it's almost guaranteed card advantage, she makes your Sword of Fire and Ice connect, she protects your turn 2 morphed Angel, she protects your tempo by stopping the play "In response to the equip ability, kill your guy".

You mentioned that Wave was one of the most powerful cards in the deck: well, Mom performs about 60% of Wave's functions, without fading away and while carrying a sword.

I dunno, I dropped Mom from my build about 6 months ago and haven't looked back since. She was too fragile, and I was too dependent on her. She was like a mediocre version of Goblin Welder in the deck... yeah, she could do awesome things, but she never stuck around long enough to do em, and she wasn't particularly game breaking like Welder. She just seemed like a win-more card.

lyracian

04-25-2007, 07:12 PM

I dunno, I dropped Mom from my build about 6 months ago and haven't looked back since.

What are you using instead?

Happy Gilmore

04-25-2007, 07:42 PM

Mom > The combat phase.

Going down to 3 is acceptable. Cutting them is IMO insane. Every time you untap with Mom it's almost guaranteed card advantage, she makes your Sword of Fire and Ice connect, she protects your turn 2 morphed Angel, she protects your tempo by stopping the play "In response to the equip ability, kill your guy".

You mentioned that Wave was one of the most powerful cards in the deck: well, Mom performs about 60% of Wave's functions, without fading away and while carrying a sword.

Wave can REMOVE creatures from the combat phase completely the turn it comes into play. Wave can save multiple creatures a turn. Wave can unmorph angel at no additional cost. Wave can make some combo and many agro decks cry.

Mom will never be a major threat on its own. For no other reason I think you could cut it. As I said, he seemed horrible every time someone plays it against me. Having summoning sickness is lame. I would also prefer not to give my opponents an excuse to board in E-plague naming Cleric. It might not be as far fetched as it sounds, virtual card advantage is very good. And the second one is not dead either (kills all the savannah lions).

Ophidian

04-26-2007, 12:46 AM

What are you using instead?

Well, truth be told.. my deck hardly resembles any of the new decks (i.e. I don't use Cataclysm or Razor Golem)

I do have ample amounts of confidence in my build, but since it isn't very relevant to the current discussion it would probably clog things up. However, if you PM me, I'd be more than happy to give it to you. (I've posted similar lists before, but not my most current list)

lyracian

04-28-2007, 05:32 AM

Some of you may have seen Urdjur's thread on using Enlightened Tutor with Cataclysm ~ http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5581

While that has evolved away from Angel Stompy into its own deck, I was looking at the use of Tutor in the parent deck. Obviously it is better in builds running Razor Golem so you have the option of getting a creature.

Whether you are using Cataclysm or not Tutor can fetch about 20% of the cards that are standard for this deck (Mox, Golem, Wave & all the Equipment) as well as almost everything in the sideboard other than Glowrider for game 2 & 3.

So what do people think of dedicating two slots to Tutor to grap a silver bullet at the end of the opponents turn? Is it worth the card disadvantage?

Volt

04-28-2007, 06:03 AM

CARDS NOT CHOSEN:

Enlightened Tutor: Yup. I know the question is on your minds. Testing with Tutors was not positive at all. First, it is inherent card and tempo disadvantage, which this deck hates. Second, all of the threats you'd use it to search for you want in multiples, meaning that replacing some of them with Tutor isn't a strong strategy. Third, with as many card advantage engines already available, you typically see at least one of whatever you'd be searching for relatively early in the game. Tutor is a no-go. Don't ask.

cianty

05-05-2007, 02:01 PM

So with Flash Fuck in the mix, will Angel Stompy survive? Especially the mono white version has tremendous problems with that deck - with a near auto-lose pre-board. Chalice of the Void alone is not enough to save the day for us.

Before further ado I'd like to ask you, Zilla: Is your splash version of AS still viable? If you chose blue or black as the second color (which is the most likely option), the new AS build is probably stronger against FlashHulk anyways, but is it enough? Of course, if those people who were going to take the new version to the GP still want to do so, then I don't expect to hear about any new techs until then. I just thought... maybe that new version is not that great anymore so you might as well just spill the secrets... well, it's worth the try :tongue:

For those of us that still run mono-white, what do we do? The options are

- Samurai of the Pale Curtain
- Chalice of the Void (very dependent on the Flash version)
- True Believer (vs. Disciple kill only)
- Pithing Needle (vs. Kiki/Guide kill only)

These are the first cards that come to my mind.. I'm also wondering whether it wouldn't be better to go back to the old Chrome Mox style just so that a Samurai (and a Chalice even more reliably) can be powered out on turn one.

As I'm not going to Columbus (cause I live in Germany) I can easily spill my latest anti-Flash tech: Soul Warden.
Against the Disciple kill version one Soul Warden will grant you about +10 life - enough to get out of range. After that you just have to deal with the Disciple beatdown - shouldn't be that tough.
Against the Kiki/Guide kill Soul Warden is not as great. The creation of the Karmic Guide army involves putting a Guide token into play (+1 life) and resurrecting Kiki (+1 life) Soul Warden's ability completely negates the 2/2 bodies that come around. This leaves a Kiki and an infinitely strong Carrion Feeder to deal with. While this wouldn't be a problem against any Future Sight versions that die to their own Summoner's Pacts of Negations, now it takes a Mother of Runes to take care of the Feeder (Swords to Plowshares suck because they will most likey grant +1000^1000 life so we cannot win anymore).
I first realized this when I thought about including Essence Warden in my Flash build so that I'd gain infinite life with the Karmic Guide/Kiki chain.

So what to do? Maybe it's wise to fit the following into the mainboard:

+4 Chrome Mox
+4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Sideboard
+4 Soul Warden

Well, what do you people think? Anyone not giving up on white weenie? For now I know I will rather play Faerie Stompy when I expect any Flash decks on a tournament which is really bad - because actually I prefer the situation when I just can't decide which Stompy deck I'm going to pick when I want to smash some face.

Zilla

05-05-2007, 06:09 PM

Well, what do you people think? Anyone not giving up on white weenie? For now I know I will rather play Faerie Stompy when I expect any Flash decks on a tournament which is really bad - because actually I prefer the situation when I just can't decide which Stompy deck I'm going to pick when I want to smash some face.
Trying to make this archetype viable in a Flash-legal format is an excercise in futility. It was designed as a metagame deck to trump fast aggro, while still having reasonable game against other archetypes. The archetype that this deck beats is essentially non-existent in a Flash-legal metagame.

Incidentally, Faerie Stompy isn't nearly as solid against Flash combo as you would expect it to be. See the "Beating Flash Combo" thread for my specific reasoning on that topic.

Last but not least: I haven't given up on Angel Stompy completely, because Flash isn't going to survive in this format. Come June 1, it will be banned. If it's not, the format will languish and disintegrate until they ban it on Sep. 1, by which point it may be too late to matter.

cianty

05-05-2007, 08:53 PM

Well, I didn't mean that Feary Stompy is more solid - I just meant that it is better than Angel Stompy. Not talking of any 50/50-matchups or so of course...

Unfortunately you didn't answer my question: Will there still be anyone going to GP with the splash AS version you've been talking about? Cause I'm real curious on seeing what that is like. And please don't say that because this GP is fucked up now due to Flash you will wait until the next GP after Columbus to spill the beans.

Lego

05-06-2007, 01:24 AM

Unfortunately you didn't answer my question: Will there still be anyone going to GP with the splash AS version you've been talking about? Cause I'm real curious on seeing what that is like. And please don't say that because this GP is fucked up now due to Flash you will wait until the next GP after Columbus to spill the beans.

I thought we already talked about this after I failed miserably at the Mana Leak Open. No, no one will be taking the "new" AS splash to Columbus. I would have been the one taking it, and if I go I'll be taking Flash. I kind of gave up on the new list after MLO2. There could still be something there, but there was just too much internal conflict going on their, and it didn't turn out to be as good as I had hoped. I'd be happy to post the list, but I'll let Zilla decide if he wants to do that, as it's his list.

Hummingbird TG

06-06-2007, 02:42 PM

June 1st is over. Can this deck compete again, or is it still dead anyway to the rise of CRET Belcher?

ajmmii

06-07-2007, 03:56 PM

Hello everyone, I'm new here, so bear with me if I'm being over optimistic here. :cool: I think Angel Stompy isn't dead yet. It might require some changes, but Belcher isn't an auto-lose. Pithing needle handles Belcher well, but what can help is rule of law, which makes Belcher harder to cast and empty the warrens virtually dead. Chalice of the void set to 1 or 2 can help (maybe zero even?) What do you guys think?

Edits: Oh, how could I forget glow rider?

Zilla

06-10-2007, 02:39 AM

I think a list with 4x Chalice and 4x Glowrider can beat Belcher. It's not going to be pretty, but it's not completely unwinnable either. If you want to hate on ultra-fast combo in particular, and aren't too concerned about Solidarity, Null Rod is a pretty solid choice. It shuts down your own equipment, but it can hit play on first turn and it shuts down Belcher, Mox, Petal and LED. Worth considering.

cianty

06-10-2007, 08:39 AM

Now that we're pretty much back to the old meta, would you mind posting that splash version of Angel Stompy? I've been waiting for ages to see it. I still run AS in local tournaments here and it has always worked quite well for me (playing White Weenie for years then changing to AS) so I'd love to see some further development on this deck. I know Mr. Lego wasn't too happy with the list but I'd really like to give it a try.

tivadar

06-10-2007, 11:35 AM

Don Tamac

06-11-2007, 06:05 PM

I haven't had the time to follow this thread the latest months (read nine months at least), and the deck seems to have evolved quite a bit since my last visit... I'd like to see the most recent build by Godzilla, what post number does it have?

I have played a version of this deck in my meta for some time, and although it doesn't win the tournaments it is ALWAYS the most fun deck to play because it has so many possibilities (to many?). My opponents thinks it is the most fun deck to play against, because they have to stretch their abilities to the border and beyond to beat it. Well, this was just a sidenote... The latest build? Please...

ajmmii

06-11-2007, 08:31 PM

I think the latest version of the deck is this.

Mana (22)
17 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (24)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Razor Golem
4 Soltari Priest
4 Silver Knight
4 Isamaru
4 Mother of Runes

Removal, etc. (8)
4 StoP
4 Cataclysm

Equipment (6)
2 Mask of Memory
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Jitte

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider
2 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant/Pithing Needle

Basic plan is get creature/equipment or creature/golem into play, then resolve Cataclysm ftw.

Pale Moon FTW

06-12-2007, 12:37 PM

Basic plan is get creature/equipment or creature/golem into play, then resolve Cataclysm ftw.

That's bull. Cataclysm is a bomb, but the deck doesn't rely on it to win the game. At least 80% of the time I win, I win without Cataclysm. It's in there because it has great synergy with the rest of the deck, but it's not your win condition.

ajmmii

06-12-2007, 03:25 PM

That's bull. Cataclysm is a bomb, but the deck doesn't rely on it to win the game. At least 80% of the time I win, I win without Cataclysm. It's in there because it has great synergy with the rest of the deck, but it's not your win condition.

I didn't say the deck relies on Cataclysm, I said the basic plan is to win that way. Obviously the deck is also made to work without, and in some cases (FS, affinity) has to win without it. Cataclysm was added since it wrecks most decks when it resolves. Its the biggest change as far as I know the deck has had since this thread started. (Not including the splash version) Just look at some of the previous posts. Alot of strategy, and what is good in the deck is decided around cataclysm, since creature+artifact when it resolves means game over for most decks. Another basic strategy is turn 3 angel, but that doesn't mean it I believe it can't win without it.

Euner

06-15-2007, 02:59 PM

I have a question about Angel Stompy. I've only played it for a very short time but I noticed that SoFI is a little bit too slow to really harm the opponent.

Is it an idea to play an other equipment like Grafted Wargear, Bonesplitter, 2 more Mask of Memory, Specter's Shroud or maybe something else in stead of SoFi?

Pale Moon FTW

06-15-2007, 03:08 PM

I find SoFaI to be the strongest piece of equipment in the deck mainly because of the protection from red and the immidiate +2/+2 boost as opposed to first getting counters on your Jitte.
But if I had to take it out, I'd replace it with +1 Jitte, +1 Mask of Memory (I know Jitte is legendary, but if your meta is so fast that SoFaI's too slow, the risk of drawing a second Jitte should be pretty low).

Euner

06-15-2007, 03:20 PM

Yes okey, but would it be a clever move? Of course SoFI is a very good equipment but it's impossible to have it equipped to a creature before you play cataclysm in turn 3 or 4..

dre4m

06-15-2007, 03:25 PM

Yes okey, but would it be a clever move? Of course SoFI is a very good equipment but it's impossible to have it equipped to a creature before you play cataclysm in turn 3 or 4..

T1: Plains, Isamaru
T2: Tomb, Sword, Bash
T3: Plains, Equip, Bash
T4: Cataclysm

Euner

06-16-2007, 07:33 AM

Barook

06-16-2007, 08:20 AM

You are right, you can play Cataclysm in turn 4. But if you play Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear, you can play him in turn 3.

Turn 1: Plains + Isamaru
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb + Grafted Wargear + Equip
Turn 3: Plains + Cataclysm

And if you play against combo, you have to play cataclysm as soon as possible :wink:
The only problem is that Bonesplitter (which is no Rancor, after all) and especially Grafted Wargear suck hard. And the combo argument is just plain bad to justify those cards because you can go like this, too:

T1: Plains, Isamaru
T2: Tomb, Sword, Bash
T3: Plains, Cataclysm (leaving Ancient Tomb in play)
T4: Equip, Bash

dre4m

06-16-2007, 12:13 PM

T1: Plains, Isamaru
T2: Tomb, Sword, Bash
T3: Plains, Cataclysm (leaving Ancient Tomb in play)
T4: Equip, Bash

Or you could leave a Plains, then play another Plains on turn four... I would rather have some white mana available so I can cast non-equipment spells.

Never, never, never, never play Grafted Wargear in this deck. I'm not going to say never play it, because those words would eventually be in front of me on a plate, but it is fantastically horrible in this deck, because it gives the possiblity to recover from Cataclysm in one shot by destroying the Wargear, and two-for-one's in your opponents' favour are never good ideas.

Euner

06-17-2007, 09:29 AM

I guess you guys are right, but I will certainly test a little bit with other equipments than SoFI. If you don't have a Ancient Tomb in your hand and that happens very often, it;s just too slow.

MasterBlaster

06-18-2007, 12:06 AM

I guess you guys are right, but I will certainly test a little bit with other equipments than SoFI. If you don't have a Ancient Tomb in your hand and that happens very often, it;s just too slow.

SoFI is just as fast at killing your opponent as Jitte without an early Ancient Tomb, plus it gets you another card every turn. If you do get a second turn Ancient Tomb than your SoFI is dropped a turn earlier and will kill your opponent 1 turn faster. An early Ancient Tomb does nothing to speed up the kill with a Jitte. Also SoFI can be dropped a turn earlier with a Chrome Mox.

Zilla

06-19-2007, 05:18 PM

The number one reason to run SoFI is because it lets your creatures go toe to toe with Thresh's creatures and win. Honestly, if Thresh weren't as popular as it is, I would run something else in this slot. Euner is quite correct that they are relatively slow, given that the deck's strategy is focused on a turn 4 Cataclysm. That said, if you're going to run equipment that pumps your creatures, you probably also want to want that equipment to draw you cards, be able to do direct damage, and have protection from Goblins.

SoFI gets run because it's a) a necessary tool against Thresh and b) the second most objectively powerful option (behind Jitte).

Holo_rip

06-21-2007, 04:29 AM

Kilz88

06-22-2007, 04:58 AM

i've been using Angel stompy archetype for some weeks now, and after few tweaking, i find myself to rearrange the creature base like this :
-4 Isamaru and -4 Soltari priest
+2 Serra avenger , + 3 SotPK , +3 True believer (with one SotPK and on Believer.

I've been doing this to get some more evasion, and to have maindeck answer to threshold and combo. Those are well represented here in France.
does it seem like good or not for you (Zilla, i'm looking at you) ?

Holo.

You have just taken out 2 "auto-in" creatures...Some of the best in the deck. Now, I have 2 Believers in my board so I do like him but SotPK. I also main deck Aven Mindcensor which hurts some combo. I also run...Well here:

Angel Stompy

Creatures

4 Exalted Angel
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Mother of Runes
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Spectral Lynx

Equipment

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Parallax Wave
1 Seal of Cleansing

Mana/Lands

13 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas

Sideboard

4 Orim's Chant
4 Glowrider
4 Trinisphere
2 True Believer
1 Seal of Cleansing

I am still more fond of Wave than Cata. I tested Cata and liked it for a while butI started to realize that the games where Cata was amazing, wave would have been just as good if not better. The deck does not have enough synergy to abuse Cata like people think it does. Basically, this deck is going to have a hard time with combo game one. I have excepted that and tryed to solidify my matches against everything else for game one then SB things like chant, glowrider, and trini for combo game 2 and possibly 3. I also went with things like trini and rider because they splash against other things like thresh and landstill, the deck's worst anti-combo match up. Aven is quite good against thresh/landstill/fish decks too, besides being good against combo that needs to "search". Finally, Lynx gets by goyf...Legacy's new best friend.

Oh, and no MoM. I decided that I don't want to discard cards, i'd rather just use more win.

Flame on.:rolleyes:

Citrus-God

06-22-2007, 06:57 AM

I did some testing for the past few days. i was thinking up the most generic list I could think of, and here is my reasoning.

// Mana 22
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
12 Plains

// Creatures 24
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Silver Knight
4 Razor Golem
4 Exalted Angel

// Spells 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard 15
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider
3 Sphere of Resistance

Playing This deck:

I figured the best way to play this deck is analyze the synergies and card choices made behind this deck. When I looked into this deck, I was it as a hybrid deck between White Weenie and The Rock, so yes, a Aggro-Midgame deck. So in some match ups, it plays like WW, and Board Control in the mirror match. Obviously you want to keep your opponent making decisions and play a Mom after a Catalysm to protect your guy, or just Cataclysm with a Knight of the Holy Nimbus and force you opponent into making a decision whether to play a threat or leave mana open for the Knight. Razor Golem with another Creature when Catalysm resolves can make games very hard for the opponent, since two threats that are good on their own can be quite deadly.

Yes, Angel Stompy is a metagame deck. Since it's Aggro MUs are so savage and this build can actually comprehend 15 cards worth of hate, having 11 cards to answer stuff really isnt a bad idea, since the Stax plan is so efficient.

Card choices:

Mother of Runes: Simply put, she is amazing. I would never play her when setting up 'lysm, but after, she is amazing. With cards like Swords to Plowshares and Ancient Grudge running around, it is never win-more to play her after a resolved 'lysm.

Flagstones of Trokair is a no brainer.

KotHN: I believe it is a great blocker, and a great 'lysm set-up card. Like I said, him and Mom can force opponents into pretty retarded decisions.

Razor Golem: Like Mom and KotHN, he forces people into difficult decisions after a 'lysm just because it's a threat on it's own after 'lysm's resolution, since the opponent has to deal with two threats.

The rest is kinda standard.

Cards I might cut:

Isamaru: I dont remember I time I've lost when an Lackey triggers (not kidding). I remember the time I've lost because Isamaru sucked as a threat. I feel that Isamaru should be Spectral Lynx, considering the fact that Lynx actually blocks Goyf.

So tell me what you think guys. I'm not 100% right, but those are my thoughts. Thanks.

Zilla

06-22-2007, 06:59 AM

I am still more fond of Wave than Cata. I tested Cata and liked it for a while butI started to realize that the games where Cata was amazing, wave would have been just as good if not better. The deck does not have enough synergy to abuse Cata like people think it does.
That could be because you're not running Razor Golem. Combined with Cataclysm it's one of the very best creatures you can run, bar none.

Cataclysm is better than Parallax Wave against Goblins. By a lot. Goblins can recover from a couple turns of stalling. It can't recover from a board wipe when they get to keep one goblin and you keep a Silver Knight and a Razor Goblem. Cataclysm is better than Parallax Wave against board control. Wave protects you somewhat from mass removal. Cataclysm essentially wins the game by removing their most improtant resource, that being lands. Cataclysm is better against decks with untargetable creatures, particularly CounterSliver. Wave is a dead draw in that matchup. Cataclysm essentially wins you the game against them. Cataclysm is better against combo than Parallax Wave. Neither one is very good, but at least Parallax Wave isn't completely dead.

If you're playing the right cards with it (Golem especially), Cataclysm is better in most matchups than Parallax Wave. It's worse against Affinity and Faerie Stompy, simply because they have similar strategies which can also abuse Cataclysm. Beyond that, Cataclysm is just better, assuming you're running a list which compliments it strategically.

Pale Moon FTW

06-22-2007, 08:48 AM

Why is it that everyone seems to be cutting Soltari Priest? To me he's one of the best creatures in the deck, he's won me the most games besides Exalted Angel. He's just insane with Jitte or SoFaI, like "StP me now or die". So your opponent's playing lightning bolt as removal? Well GG! I mean he's an unblockable, unburnable 2/1 for WW in a deck that runs Jitte and SoFaI. What's not to like? So he can't block, you've got like 20 other creatures in the deck that can block.
I'd never cut him.

Kilz88

06-22-2007, 03:59 PM

That could be because you're not running Razor Golem. Combined with Cataclysm it's one of the very best creatures you can run, bar none.

Cataclysm is better than Parallax Wave against Goblins. By a lot. Goblins can recover from a couple turns of stalling. It can't recover from a board wipe when they get to keep one goblin and you keep a Silver Knight and a Razor Goblem. Cataclysm is better than Parallax Wave against board control. Wave protects you somewhat from mass removal. Cataclysm essentially wins the game by removing their most improtant resource, that being lands. Cataclysm is better against decks with untargetable creatures, particularly CounterSliver. Wave is a dead draw in that matchup. Cataclysm essentially wins you the game against them. Cataclysm is better against combo than Parallax Wave. Neither one is very good, but at least Parallax Wave isn't completely dead.

If you're playing the right cards with it (Golem especially), Cataclysm is better in most matchups than Parallax Wave. It's worse against Affinity and Faerie Stompy, simply because they have similar strategies which can also abuse Cataclysm. Beyond that, Cataclysm is just better, assuming you're running a list which compliments it strategically.

Yeah, I forgot to touch on that. I do agree Golom does make Cata a LOT better. It is mostly a matter of opinion. The two cards are equally good in different situations so, you just have to pick one. I think the comment about the gobs match-up doesnt really matter because you already are one of few decks that have a favorable match against them so wave does the job. To me Cata is kind of overkill in that match. Besides all that, I understand. :wink:

ajmmii

06-26-2007, 11:21 AM

While I agree that parallax wave is a good card, I think Cataclysm is by far more versatile than wave, which is why it should be played over it. Basically, Parallax wave is more a temporary Wrath of God, (and the occasional ghostway) while cataclysm is a permanent wrath of god, armageddon, etc. While Wave stalls your opponent, cataclysm stall them more, and is less dependent on what deck they play. Plus its a good excuse to have 4 'Armageddons' main deck.:tongue:

Oh, and I agree with you Pale Moon FTW, priest is a pretty awesome 2 power unblockable can't burn me creature. Yeah, he can't block, but unless your opponent plays shadow creatures, he'll connect everytime unless removed. And he just gets better with your equipment. (SoFaI, 4 unblockable damage, free shock and cantrip, be the envy of every control deck as you out draw them.)

tivadar

07-03-2007, 11:02 AM

I've been working on my UW version of this deck and have recently been looking for good answers to the weenies from ETW storm decks. I think I came upon something, which while discussed previously, hasn't been brought up in a while and is probably a Good Idea (TM):

Ghostly Prison:

Advantages (Works well against):
Belcher and TES (Empty the Warrens)
Goblins
Countersliver/Meathooks
Combos amazingly well with Cataclysm (enchantment + lack of mana)

Disadvantages (Works poorly against):
Faerie Stompy
Rock-Style Decks
Thresh (To some extent)

I think I see it primarily as a board card, but given the meta, a particularly strong board card. Curious what all you think...

Pale Moon FTW

07-03-2007, 11:27 AM

I think Ghostly Prison is a little too slow to deal with EtW tokens to be really reliable (you either have to start or have an Ancient Tomb and either way you'll still take one blow). When running the W/U version I think some Echoing Truth in the SB is the best tool against EtW tokens.
Also ghostly prison hurts yourself a little too much for you to gain much advantage of it. Chances are in the mono white version that you'll have a weenie hand without equipment or an angel and then Ghostly Prison will probably hurt you more than the opponent and in the W/U version you want to save your mana for counterspells instead of using them to attack through the prison.

tivadar

07-03-2007, 12:10 PM

Prison hurts yourself? You do realize it's one-sided. I honestly don't want to discuss the UW version here, I'm looking only at the mono-white version. As for Prison being to slow, I really don't think it is so much. Sure, if they T1 for 10 tokens, you're screwed. But this is fairly rare for TES. Typically they'll empty on turn 2. On play, this means your Prison hits the board before they get one attack. On draw, it means they get a single attack. On top of this, either Tomb or Mox will speed this up by a turn, meaning even a turn 1 Warrens can be dealt with.

Another way to deal with tokens is Rain of Blades, I just feel that Prison actually has good synergy with the rest of the deck.

Pale Moon FTW

07-03-2007, 01:40 PM

Oops I've always thought that Ghostly Prison was symmetrical :S
But when I said it was too slow I mostly thought of CRET Belcher which can easily make 10+ pro players on turn 1. I also like Echoing Truth better against EtW because it dispatches all the tokens as opposed to the prison which only prevents them from attacking but he has a big wall of tokens he can use to stall the game with while he recovers his hand to go off again.
On the other hand Ghostly Prison is less narrow. I guess it's a metagame choice. But it's pretty annoying to have an answer which is unusable if you're on the draw against belcher.

tivadar

07-03-2007, 02:22 PM

Sorry, I misrepresented what I saw the role of Prison as. I don't see it as THE answer to Belcher/TES, but rather a goblins answer that acts as a card you can board in against these decks. I agree, though, I think the deck needs other answers to belcher/TES as well, which is pretty obvious considering they both have alternate win conditions. Here, though, orim's chant works against TES, pithing against belcher. This seems like a lot of board action to handle two decks.

Is there anything that works against both, and all their win conditions? Glowrider is just too slow nowadays. Chalice works, of course, but hurts you quite a bit too. Also, I think it's sorta silly to look for a turn 0 answer. If your opponent goes off before you play, just accept it and take the loss :-P. Not much is really going to save you then, and the answers available will probably be bad. There's always EE, which seems rather narrow in this deck, but works well for 2 color, and it's better than echoing truth, which isn't hard to do considering Truth is pretty terrible.

Pale Moon FTW

07-03-2007, 03:04 PM

Well in the U/W version there's Stifle which works against EtW and Tendrils and can buy you a turn against Belcher so you can get to disenchant it. I think it's the best answer available.
When playing mono white you'll probably have to accept that combo is just a bad matchup though. You should still throw chalice in the SB as it randomly wins games though.

Zilla

07-03-2007, 03:20 PM

Sorry, I misrepresented what I saw the role of Prison as. I don't see it as THE answer to Belcher/TES, but rather a goblins answer that acts as a card you can board in against these decks.
The thing is, the white version already smashes Goblins, so Prison is rather superfluous in that matchup. The thing that's always been true of Angel Stompy is that it's rock solid against aggro, with questionable game against control and combo. Ghostly Prison is really an answer to a problem the mono-white build doesn't have. I could see it being decent in the WU version, because you've given up some of your game against aggro to make for a bit of a better combo matchup.

tivadar

07-03-2007, 03:27 PM

The thing is, the white version already smashes Goblins, so Prison is rather superfluous in that matchup. The thing that's always been true of Angel Stompy is that it's rock solid against aggro, with questionable game against control and combo. Ghostly Prison is really an answer to a problem the mono-white build doesn't have. I could see it being decent in the WU version, because you've given up some of your game against aggro to make for a bit of a better combo matchup.

Valid point, and one well taken. One more quick question if you don't mind. Has a Faerie Stompy-esque version of this deck been considered? One with main-deck chalice, perhaps even trinisphere. Does this just become angel stax? I'm envisioning something a bit more aggro than that. Though it would probably drop most of the 1-drops and 2-drops in favor of higher CC creatures/spells. Chalice mainboard would be a good answer to many of the problem matchups. How does this deck fair against slivers out of curiosity?

I tried this approach in UW, but supporting the extra color just never actually worked. Angel may be a bit harder here, requiring WW, but I don't think it's impossible to support, and it's not completely dead while facedown, just obviously not as good. Obviously, Cataclysm would be great in a deck like Faerie Stompy, as would a card like angel (which is bigger than all of their threats). You obviously lose FoW and Trinket, which is a big loss, but other cards could make up for it. Certainly the autoloss to goblins wouldn't be there...

Pale Moon FTW

07-03-2007, 03:44 PM

How does this deck fair against slivers out of curiosity?
One of my friends plays CounterSliver so I've playtested against him alot. This matchup is very even. Cataclysm wins games here and is really what raises this matchup to about 55/45 as opposed to something like 30/70 if it wasn't around. Your biggest problem is if he goes aggro with an early winged sliver and you don't have an exalted angel (or it gets countered) and he just smashes you with an unblockable army.

About the stax-like idea: I think it would be in great danger of becomming an Angel Stax deck. But in some metas maindeck chalices might not be a bad idea and Trinisphere does work well in the deck, but they don't work well together so I don't think you should be using both.

As for an W/U list a guy at my local tourney plays this list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Stand
4 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
4 Exalted Angel
4 Mother of Runes
3 True Believer
4 Meddling Mage
2 Serendib Efreet
4 Silver Knight
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa´s Jitte
2 Sword of fire and ice

SB:
3 Seal of Cleansing
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
1 True Believer

Getting both white and blue mana really isn't a problem because he runs 6 fetches. It's a kind of conservative build that reminds a little of some older W/U aggro-control decks but it works and can be tweaked to do well against combo (by replacing counterspell with Daze and making room for Stifle) while still being able to just go aggro.

Nihil Credo

07-04-2007, 04:14 AM

The reason why you can't really mimic Faerie Stompy (City of Traitors, MD Chalice/Trini) is a lack of good creatures that cost XW. FS has Drake, Efreet, Cloud, Trinket, and Maelstrom; but every AS threat other than the Angel is a WW weenie... or is Razor Golem, which is even worse.

Find three good 2W creatures and you may have something on hand (Cataclysm's power is comparable to FoW, and Juggernaut fills in nicely as another synergistic beater). Unfortunately, as I scoured MWS the most scary stuff I could was Stonecloaker and Haunted Angel...

Zilla

07-04-2007, 04:41 AM

One more quick question if you don't mind. Has a Faerie Stompy-esque version of this deck been considered?
Nihil's touched on one of the most important reasons it wouldn't really work: almost all of white's threats are in the 2cc range. Further, the biggest advantage that white has over mono-blue is Swords to Plowshares, which is essentially unplayable in a deck focused on playing a first turn Chalice for one.

The biggest advantages white has are lost by shifting to a Faerie-Stompy setup, at which point one must ask oneself why one isn't simply playing Faerie Stompy. It would be easier to try to fit Cataclysm into Faerie Stompy than it would be to shift Angel Stompy in that direction. (Incidentally, I've actually tried to fit Cataclysm into Faerie Stompy and it doesn't work. The manabase just gets shittier.)

Volt

07-04-2007, 04:54 AM

One of my friends plays CounterSliver so I've playtested against him alot. This matchup is very even. Cataclysm wins games here and is really what raises this matchup to about 55/45 as opposed to something like 30/70 if it wasn't around. Your biggest problem is if he goes aggro with an early winged sliver and you don't have an exalted angel (or it gets countered) and he just smashes you with an unblockable army.

As you might imagine, I've playtested that matchup quite a bit myself. It is in fact just about dead even before sideboarding. As the Angel Stompy player, you want to play out equipment and Angels to bait counterspells, then resolve a Cataclysm. As the CounterSliver player, you want to always save a counter for the Cataclysm. You can usually race a resolved Jitte or Angel, believe it or not.

CounterSliver is favored after sideboarding. Meddling Mages and Harmonic Slivers are really good.

Curby

07-31-2007, 02:15 AM

Hi, I've a question (or rather a family of related questions) about Flagstones of Trokair. I find it odd that it was only mentioned once, as a 4-of, in 66 pages of discussion, and even stranger that it neither resulted in "Why didn't I think of that?" nor "Why the heck would you ever run that?"

1. To start out with, is there any reason to run these if not using Armageddon-like effects (most likely Cataclysm)? Aside from the odd Price of Progress and extra monetary cost in making the deck, there aren't really any disadvantages to running one of these compared to another Plains. Any destruction caused by you or an opponent only helps thin your deck of lands. Why not throw one in Angel Stompy by default?

2. How about using more than one? When you play one with an existing one on the board, both are buried and you search for two lands. The Plains come into play tapped, but you could have tapped the existing 'Stones for mana, so you're only down one mana compared to having two basic Plains. However, you've thinned your deck by two, a'la Tithe.

A Tithe without land in your hand would be a clear mulligan. While you'd likely mulligan with only a 'Stones in your hand, at least it "casts itself" and produces mana just like a Plains. Tithe was eventually removed from the Zilla's decklist for added consistency, but 'Stones doesn't seem to suffer the same consistency problems. Would you always run fetchlands over 'Stones, even in mono-white? Why doesn't the current recommended decklist use such tricks?

3. Third scenario. Do you run 'Stones with Cataclysm? How many, and why that number?

4. A little off-topic, so feel free to delete/ignore this part: if playing a generic white deck (White Control, White Weenie, etc.) and possibly splashing colors, when would you use these? Fetchlands are more consistent, but what characteristic of your deck would influence you to run 'Stones over (or in addition to) other possibilities?

I'm considering converting my old-school White Weenie deck to an Angel Stompy, and it'd be useful to know whether I should spend the $20 or so on some Flagstones.

Even more importantly, as a relative newbie* I'd like to learn when and why I should or should not use them. Thanks for the wealth of information on this site. I hope to learn a lot more and maybe even contribute. First post! :tongue:

--Curby

* I played for about five years, but that was about five years ago. So i'm a born-again newbie. =)

Nihil Credo

07-31-2007, 07:54 AM

Your four Cataclysms love Flagstones. Your four Razor Golems hate Flagstones. That's pretty much the answer.

cianty

07-31-2007, 10:40 AM

Plus four Flagstones would hate each other even more.

I'm not even happy with the one random Flagstone in the current list. I don't think they're needed at all because they interfere way too heavily with Razor Golem.

tivadar

07-31-2007, 02:39 PM

In my opinion, 2-3 in this deck is the right number. 4 can screw over your turn 2 play a bit too often. Razor Golem complicates this, obviously, but that's only part of your strategy. Flagstones just has way too good synergy with Cataclysm to be ignored. And cataclysm is a MUCH bigger part of your strategy.

EDIT: Ohh, and that W/u list could be majorly improved. Why run True Believer main when you have Meddling Mage, I just don't get it... In the W/u version, Serendibs replace Razor Golems, and therefor there's no reason not to run at least 2 Flagstones.

Zilla

07-31-2007, 02:45 PM

1-2 Flagstones is correct in this build. They have very poor synergy with Razor Golem, but very strong synergy (obviously) with Cataclysm. The random times where you get to keep an extra land after a resolved Cataclysm is worth running at least one Flagstones. I run two, but you can get away with a singleton. Any more than two is going to make for situations where you're drawing multiples, which is not only not that awesome by itself, but is also a quick trip to frowntown if you've got a Razor Golem in hand.

tivadar

07-31-2007, 06:27 PM

Actually drawing 2 is the same as drawing 1 with razor golem, you still play him T4. Two means you fetch two plains on your T3, then cast Golem T4. One means you don't get to fetch anything. Godzilla's probably right though, I'm running 2 flagstones in the splashed version and it's worked well for me. Never ran into a situation where I had double and couldn't play something because of it.

cianty

08-01-2007, 04:15 AM

2 make perfect sense when Razor Golem is replaced, I see that.

Would you mind posting your splash version, Tividar?

ajmmii

08-01-2007, 10:55 AM

2 make perfect sense when Razor Golem is replaced, I see that.

Would you mind posting your splash version, Tividar?

I'm not sure how much its changed, but wasn't it posted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6015)?

Curby

08-02-2007, 01:03 AM

Thanks for the replies. Seems that 2 is consensus when running with the Golem and the Cat. I just got two Silver Knights and an Ancient Tomb last night. Now I'm just around 50 rares away from making the deck! :tongue:

ajmmii

08-08-2007, 03:47 PM

I was looking over the forums and came across talk about Duskrider Peregrine. What do you guys think of suspend creatures+cataclysm? Maybe its too much of a win more, dunno, but what do you guys think? I'm not sure what to replace, maybe priest? Is Duskrider Peregrine too slow to be useful in this deck?

Nihil Credo

08-08-2007, 07:08 PM

Riftmarked Knight is much, much better than Peregrine in this deck.

ajmmii

08-08-2007, 08:18 PM

Riftmarked Knight is much, much better than Peregrine in this deck.
You do have a point. He's easy to hard cast as well as makes a decent suspend creature.

Edit: I do notice that Peregrine's flying makes him more of a threat than 2 2/2 with flanking, especially against decks where the protection is useless. (Stupid Tarmogoyf) I am also missing the unblockable pro red priest, especially an equiped one. Also, lack of pro-red means Peregrine i liable to get bolted. If only there was a pro-red suspend creature.

Too bad Lucent Liminid isn't a better creature, since it would have work well with cataclysm as well.

ajmmii

08-22-2007, 03:37 PM

Bumping the thread. Wow, Lorwyn already look promising cause of this guy:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55597&d=1187737750

Galepowder Mage 3W
Creature - Kithkin Wizard
Flying
Whenever Galepowder Mage attacks, remove another target creature from the game. Return that card to play under its owner's control at end of turn.
3/3

I'm already liking this guy, maybe he could fit in AS? He could do stuff like flip an angel you played that turn and remove a creature you control for impending cataclysm. He also is a 3/3 flying for 4. Course, downsides are that its ability isn't optional, so you possibly be removing your creatures and its mana cost of 4 is the same turn you'd want to cataclysm. Is its synergy with angel and cataclysm, as well as clearing blockers, outway its possible drawback and mana cost?

zulander

08-22-2007, 04:04 PM

He's a pretty viable guy, he can be bolted but many creatures in this format can anyways. His ability can also help you win the game when your opponent plays a chump blocker allowing you to swing with equipment for the win.

tivadar

08-22-2007, 05:05 PM

Nydaeli

08-22-2007, 05:10 PM

Galepowder Mage isn't going to see much play in Legacy, but he'll be a huge bomb in Limited.

thefreakaccident

08-23-2007, 12:05 AM

kithkin could possibly have better synergy in a survival deck, one probably running cards like heirarch, avalanch riders, and derranged hermit (and to a lesser degree FTK).

Justicio

08-23-2007, 06:00 PM

Im hoping the community of the source can shed some light on an uphill battle ive been experiencing regarding certain matchups where the creatures are just bigger then mine.

Below is the list that im running

Mana (22)
18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

Creatures (24)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Razor Golem
4 Soltari Priest
4 Silver Knight
4 Isamaru
4 Mother of Runes

Removal, etc. (8)
4 StoP
4 Cataclysm

Equipment (6)
2 Mask of Memory
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Jitte

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider
2 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Seal of Cleansing

Currently the issue is with Red green white Zoo
when the creatures they drop are bigger then mine example Kird ape and turmogorf
It only gets worse when they drop river boa and troll acetic and then just hold me off with regeneration while the burn they pac goes right to my face

the list from memory runs rancor, chain lighting, magma jet, lightning bolt, kird ape, river boa, turmogorf, jitte

his board is pyroclasm, swords to plow shares, krosan grip

anyone have any suggestions to over come this threat?

anyone have any suggestions on how to over come this overwhelming threat

zulander

08-23-2007, 06:07 PM

I personally like the 4 ancient tomb/4 city of traitors for a turn 1 chalice for 1. That usually slows down thresh/goblins/aggro control long enough for you to get going.

264505

08-23-2007, 06:08 PM

What about splashing green for goyf? I bet he is huge after a cataclysm.

Phantom

08-23-2007, 06:19 PM

zulander

08-23-2007, 06:22 PM

No matter what you do, 'goyf is going to be a problem, but Jotun Grunt can help kill him or scale his size down.
Goyf isn't a big problem once you get an exalted angel down. Goyf's usually a 5/6 and you can easily chump block him with an angel. Once you get a WMD on him he's even better and can start swinging. Heck, you don't even have to worry about blocking gofy once you get an angel down, you'll be hitting for 4, and he'll be hitting for 1 because of the life gain. Sounds like a plan to me...

Phantom

08-23-2007, 06:27 PM

Goyf isn't a big problem once you get an exalted angel down. Goyf's usually a 5/6 and you can easily chump block him with an angel. Once you get a WMD on him he's even better and can start swinging. Heck, you don't even have to worry about blocking gofy once you get an angel down, you'll be hitting for 4, and he'll be hitting for 1 because of the life gain. Sounds like a plan to me...

NOTHING is a problem when you get an angel down (and it lives to unmorph against BURN) but you can't really count on that.

Also, AS isn't built for chalice at all. Stp, Isamaru, Savanah Lions, etc.

Justicio

08-23-2007, 06:50 PM

I'm not really seeing to big of a problem here. You run 8 pro red guys that dodge his removal as well as 2 pieces of equipment that give it as well, StP and Jitte River Boa, and Exalted Angel to fly over them all.

If you still need an edge, Wrath of god is always a fun card out of the board, since GRW can't recover from it well. Also, i think there is a weenie that is flying and pro red that could help carry the equipment to freedom.

No matter what you do, 'goyf is going to be a problem, but Jotun Grunt can help kill him or scale his size down.

Thank you the community for responding to this so Promptly. A lot of ideas have been thrown out on the table that I would like to explore. It seems when he has the regenerators out, i cant attack because he just blocks my attacks and regenerates them , then throws the burn at my face. troll ascetic with Jitte is a nightmare for me. I didnt think I would have any issues with this deck until i actually played it.

Im still looking for answers regarding this matchup, I havent found what Im looking for yet.

Justicio

08-23-2007, 07:09 PM

I wanted to comment on the fact that turn one chalice can really criple decks, I have used this to win games against thresh hold that I have no business winning. Also against Combo I feel this is a necessity because When I have gone first against belcher I have been able to do first turn Chalice for one, second turn Glowrider, I think this is pretty good. In my opinion, First turn chalice can be an auto win against certain decks

ajmmii

08-24-2007, 01:04 AM

Some possible solutions to your problem:

If your having problems with green creatures, Spectral Lynx could be a decent answer. He can block goyfs and trolls all day, and dodge their regenerators easily. You could even throw in a few B/W lands to use his regen, although that opens up to more bad times with wasteland. If you want to instead get rid of his creatures, condemn could act as psuedo stp 5+, athough that doesn't solve the trolls though.

The only thing that worries me is what to take out without screw up you chances against other matches.

Another random idea, what about rune of protection: red. (I'd say circle of protection:red, but that functions almost the same as rune in this deck.) Or you could also use the creature Thermal Glider. He's a 2/1 pro red flying creature for 2W, although I'd only run him in addition to soltari priest.

On challice, I do feel that AS isn't designed for it, but its valuable in that it often screws your opponent over more than you. Setting challice from 0-2 (depends on the deck you face) can slow down combos significantly, if not shut them out of the game.

One more unrelated sidenote, I've run into some problems with seal of cleansing, mainly when people play the pithing needle naming seals, and isochron sceptor-chant (can only play instants:mad: ). Since seals work well with cataclysms, I usually divide them up 2 and 2: 2 seals and 2 disenchants/abolish. Thoughts?

Justicio

08-24-2007, 02:18 PM

ajmmii

08-24-2007, 04:42 PM

I understand that im not going to win much matches, and i would think the linx seems to be a great solution. looking more into your suggestions, there could be sphere of law, i still think chalice is some good. ive talked with others and they have recomended a board reset such as wrath of god or planar collapse. what does the community think?

Sphere of law is good vs combo, as its basically an I win card. However, I think glowrider works just as well since it also kills your opponent, and can't be duressed from your hand. Also, thresh doesn't like glowrider either. Btw, I just noticed your comment on chalice vs threshold. I hadn't thought of that before. Looking over there decks, and your right, it would cut them off from a good amount of their draw and removal. I'll have to try that out next time I face threshold.

I guess cataclysm doesn't work to well for you when your opponent controls a jitte wielding troll. I hesitate to run planar collapse since a.) it gives them a turn to just alpha strike/disenchant it, b.) there might not be 4 creatures to trigger it. On the plus side, if you can survive the first wave, it can destroy empty the warren tokens. I'd personally go with wrath, but I still don't like that in this deck. It sounds like your opponent still has the advantage of reach via burn, but hopefully you can catch them off guard by making them over extent.

barron

08-30-2007, 04:20 AM

Well i am new to this deck, but am wondering why no one has ever really mentioned children of korlis? I checked and it was only mentioned once. I know it is not all that strong on it's own, but neither is isamaru. Also, if you use them as a 1 or 2 of, use knight of the holy nimbus in the knights spot, then lin sivvi packs a decent punch. The perpetual fog would work in some instances and an early korlis definitely helps against tendrils combo (something this deck lacks in spades). The nimbus knights aren't as strong against a lot of decks, but are more flexible and help gain a bit of tempo. so long as you don't heavily commit to korlis, lin sivvy isn't even essential and would work great as a 1-2 of or so for some deck thinning and mid-game control. The recursion has already worked pretty well, especially against decks like thresh (once it resolves) since bringing back knights that auto regen can be taxing on their mana

Zilla

08-30-2007, 05:46 AM

Also, AS isn't built for chalice at all. Stp, Isamaru, Savanah Lions, etc.
Savannah Lions hasn't been in the deck for over a year. StP is irrelevant because you side it out for Chalice against combo. Ditto for Mother of Runes, which comes out for Glowrider. So you have 4 1cc cards in the deck. Not really a problem with Chalice.

Well i am new to this deck, but am wondering why no one has ever really mentioned children of korlis?
Children is simply not very good. You're an aggressive deck and you want aggressive threats. 1cc for 1 power is simply a bad ratio. Against combo they're going to answer it the same way they answer Chalice or Glowrider; they'll dig or Wish for bounce, remove it, and go off. The difference is that Chalice and Glowrider actively slow their development and ability to actually search for answers. Children of Korlis does not.

Honestly though, if you're looking to beat combo with a deck like this these days, I think you're going need to get even faster. A combination of Orim's Chant, Abeyance, and even Mana Tithe(!) might be enough disruption to force through lethal damage, and provides more answers as early as turn 1. I haven't had a chance to test a config like this yet, so I don't know if this strategy is viable... just thought it was worth mentioning.

barron

08-30-2007, 06:27 AM

Yeah it's definitely not an out against combo, or a reliable one at all, but with lin sivvi it's more of an out for mid-game control like i said. It has proven to be something to look further into thus far in my testing, but all i really know for sure is that there are some definite weak slots in the deck, mostly the isamaru and lions, from my testing they just seem to die a little too fast and easily. The silver knights can be powerful with equipment and especially against red decks, but i haven't encountered a time when the first strike wasn't really overkill once it was equipped. but really it just brings me back to what i mentieond earlier about the rebels. The decks i have played against it with, the most, have just been threshold types so far.

Zilla

08-30-2007, 07:14 AM

barron

08-30-2007, 07:19 AM

I took lions out almost as soon as I put them in. I have just been testing everything under the sun to get an idea as to how the deck plays out in various situations. I have discovered something thta never occured to me, though. Children of Korlis can be wreck against bridge from below. It's like the golins and their fanatic.

I have also been looking up every build i can find and I think honor the fallen is a good card to be in the SB as a two of. it seems like it could throw off some decks for at least a turn or two. if not more

Ophidian

08-30-2007, 09:44 AM

Jak

08-30-2007, 03:14 PM

I really didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I think it could go here. I have been toying with a list that is more WW and without Angel. I wanted something with a shot against combo, so I put in SotPC and True Believer. I also wanted some counters and stuff, so I put in Chant and Abeyance. Anyways here is my list.

Lands
14 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

Creatures
3 Isamaru
4 Silver Knight
4 Serra Avenger
4 True Believer
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

Counters
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance

SB (so far)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gilded Light
3 EE
4 Jotun Grunt

I guess it is a D+T and Angel Stompy combination, but I really wanted a more straightforward aggro approach. Oh and can someone help me find room for Mom. I really wanted to fit her in, but couldn't. Thoughts?

zulander

08-30-2007, 03:29 PM

-3 Isamaru, you have so many other insane 2 drops that I think having mom's in the place of isamaru would be good. Or you could not play her since you have 4 sofi and 4 silver knights.

ThoseWhoFearTomorrow

08-30-2007, 04:23 PM

Mom is there not just for protection from red and the like, she also protects from cycled Incinerators, STP, and Smother when you suit up your creatures with equipment.

Zilla

08-30-2007, 04:29 PM

I guess it is a D+T and Angel Stompy combination, but I really wanted a more straightforward aggro approach. Oh and can someone help me find room for Mom. I really wanted to fit her in, but couldn't. Thoughts?
At first glance, I think you're going to find that 4 Ancient Tomb is a really bad call with only seven pieces of equipment. All of your other cards are WW or 1W... not exactly stellar for use with Tomb. I think the Chrome Moxen should be replacing Tombs, not in addition to them.

Aside from that, I think you want more meat. Get some Razor Golems in there. Anything that can at least kill a Mongoose without equipment. Right now all Thresh has to do to beat you is keep equipment off the table and they can dominate the attack phase.

In the end, I think you're going to end up with a build that can sort of deal with combo, will be worse against Goblins (which is starting to matter less and less) and is probably going to have a very hard time with Thresh and CounterSlivers. I may be wrong about that, but as it stands, I'm not sure you have a lot of outs to Tarmogoyf or hordes of pumped Slivers, particularly if they keep equipment ofrf the table. You might want to consider testing spectral Lynx, even if you don't have the black mana to regenerate him. Probably not worth it, but perhaps in some metagames.

Overall though, I do think this is the direction the deck should be going. Exalted Angel is just way too slow for this metagame. Even the aggro-control decks in the format have faster clocks than Angel, and you're almost a pure aggro deck. The deck needs to slim down and be able to deal with control and Thresh if it wants to stay competitive. I think your build has that in mind, Jak, so it's probably on the right track.

ajmmii

08-30-2007, 04:30 PM

Jak, just a thought, but how important are you Ancient Tombs. Most of the spells you run don't really need them. All your maindeck creatures use only white mana. Your other spells use only 1 colorless type mana with the exception of Jitte and Sword. Would your mana base might be better replacing them withs plains?

Also, personally, I'd take out 1-2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain and True Believers in favor of either soltari priest or knight of the holy knimbus. I'd also move either your chant's or Abeyance to the sideboard and main STP, since your only form of removal right now lies in your equipment, while good, isn't always reliable if you can't hit your opponent, or can't keep a creature on the board.

Oh, and replacing Isamaru with mom sounds like a good idea.

Edit: Well, GodzillA, seems like you beat me to the tomb problem. I've been finding getting angel unmorphed doesn't happen often enough. I love angel, and don't really want to cut it, but a bolted angel really hurts.

Jak

08-30-2007, 04:53 PM

I agree with Tomb. I kind of started putting this deck together with the equipment in mind. I do agree it should be cut. So...

-4 Tomb
+4 Plains

I also do not want to cut any of the SotPC. It is still pretty good against gobs, being able to block anything, but Pile, and live. It is also important because Breakfast is all to common. I may cut Believer though. So maybe...

-2 True Believer
-2 Sword of Fire and Ice
+4 Swords to Plowshares

And I might as well cut the counters and add them to the board.
-8 Counters
+4 Razor Golem
+4 Mom

New SB
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
4 Gilded Light
3 Tivadar's Crusade

Would something like this be better?

Zilla

08-30-2007, 06:48 PM

That's a build that's more likely to be able to deal with aggro, for sure. You're obviously a lot weaker to combo now, but you still have a chance postboard. Honestly, I'm not sure that Chant/Abeyance are better than Chalice/Glowrider against combo, and Chalice/Glowrider are actually useful against Thresh as well.

Also, I think you want Cataclysm, at least in the board. It rocks Goblins (which you're probably favored against preboard anyway) and it gives you some outs to control and Slivers as well.

With as many creatures as you have, you probably want at least 6 pieces of equipment. Considering you have Vial, and you've cut Angels and Cataclysms, you're currently running more mana sources than the build I posted (same number of true sources, +4 Vial). The amount of mana in that build is so high specifically because it wants to draw extra lands in the lategame to recover from Cataclysm. You don't need to worry about this, so you can probably afford to cut at least one Plains or Mox for a third SoFI, and you might be able to drop one more mana source for the 4th.

Lastly, you probably want some Disenchants or Seals of Cleansing in the board to answer problem enchantments like Moat and Confinement.

The changes I'm proposing would look something like:

Lands
17 Plains

Creatures
4 Isamaru
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Serra Avenger
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Razor Golem

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider
4 Cataclysm
3 Disenchant

Curby

09-14-2007, 11:41 PM

Zilla

09-15-2007, 12:24 AM

I hope no one takes offense at this, as I've been a major fan of Angel Stompy and have been tracking its development and building towards it, but I'm wondering if the Death and Taxes build is simply more effective over recently proposed AS builds. Lists like Zilla's post just above seem to be hugely consistent, with more creatures and good acceleration, and the option for massive disruption.
No offense taken. Angel Stompy is woefully underdeveloped for the current metagame. It was and always will be a metagame deck, and it's built in such a way that it absolutely devastates aggro, does well against aggro control, and has problems with combo and control.

The metagame has taken a huge shift towards combo, control, and aggro-control, leaving even the format's premier aggro deck (Vial Goblins) increasingly less relevant. In a metagame like that, Angel Stompy is simply not going to measure up. In a format dominated by aggro, Angel Stompy is far better than Death and Taxes. Now? Not likely. Particularly with the printing of Gaddock Teeg (and his interaction with Karakas), I think Death and Taxes is where the white aggro archetype wants to be right now.

Baumeister

09-15-2007, 01:36 AM

How sad. I was always a huge fan of this deck because it was cheap to build and a blast to play. Normally I would say it was only a matter of time before the format shifted back towards aggresive decks to balance out the enormous amount of combo and control right now, but I don't see that happening as ***** can beat anything and the only weapons that are semi-potent against it are fast combo and control.

Curby

09-15-2007, 02:14 AM

This post might belong more in Format Development, but it seems almost inevitable that the format would settle on aggro control. (I admit this might only seem obvious because it's the case right now.) Anyway...

There will obviously be standout cards in control and aggro, so why not combine the best of both worlds? This is what Thresh, Truffle Shuffle, Death and Taxes, and the slew of black-heavy "Death" decks all seem to do. Strategies that become too creature-centric are prone to mass destruction, so using a few efficient creatures and protecting them reactively or proactively with your disruption/destruction/control elements seems to be the safest bet.

Dunno how combo fits into that picture though... with new cards being printed all the time, better combo decks should be possible because mathematically, there are more possible interactions. Perhaps they're simply too prone to disruption to consistently beat aggro-control.

Note: the presence of combo means Force of Will isn't getting banned anytime soon. =)

Benie Bederios

09-19-2007, 07:44 AM

There shouldn't be any Savannah Lions in the deck. If you're going to alter it, I'd start with this build:

//NAME: Angel Stompy

// Mana
17 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb

// Beats
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus / Soltari Priest
4 Razor Golem
4 Exalted Angel

// Equipment
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Glowrider

The Isamarus are strong for a couple reasons: they provide a quick start against combo, and they're a solid play after Cataclysm with only one mana left on the board. Test some with this build first, then decide what you think is weak from there. I don't disagree at all that in the modern metagame it can certainly be improved. I just think you want to be jumping off from the correct starting point, and a list with Lions in it means you're working with a very old build.

Hello,

This build looks solid and I want to try it out. The only thing I don't understand is the single Flagstone. Isn't it a little random. I think the deck can support more.

Next to that I miss the City of Trators. With Cataclysm, you are saccing lands none the less, so a land that taps for 4 mana before it dies could be good.

Is Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond tested in this deck? I remember the good old days, when Mox Diamond was used to keep additional mana after Cataclysm.

( sigh the good old days: T1 Mox Diamond Land, Soltari Priest. T2 Land Emperial Armor, swing for 5 and turn 3 Land Cataclysm and continue winning.)

Faluzure

09-19-2007, 09:39 AM

Hello,

This build looks solid and I want to try it out. The only thing I don't understand is the single Flagstone. Isn't it a little random. I think the deck can support more.

Next to that I miss the City of Trators. With Cataclysm, you are saccing lands none the less, so a land that taps for 4 mana before it dies could be good.

Is Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond tested in this deck? I remember the good old days, when Mox Diamond was used to keep additional mana after Cataclysm.

( sigh the good old days: T1 Mox Diamond Land, Soltari Priest. T2 Land Emperial Armor, swing for 5 and turn 3 Land Cataclysm and continue winning.)

The reason you only run one Flagstone is because of the Razor Golem. Most of the creatures in Threshold decks can kill yours as long as they have Threshold (unless you have equipment on the table). Razor Golem is a creature that can kill a Mongoose without equipment. As for why "we" are running 1 Flagstone, it is because Godzilla said so. Here's the quote explaining why:
1-2 Flagstones is correct in this build. They have very poor synergy with Razor Golem, but very strong synergy (obviously) with Cataclysm. The random times where you get to keep an extra land after a resolved Cataclysm is worth running at least one Flagstones. I run two, but you can get away with a singleton. Any more than two is going to make for situations where you're drawing multiples, which is not only not that awesome by itself, but is also a quick trip to frowntown if you've got a Razor Golem in hand.

I don't ever think Mox Diamond was used in this deck. I could be wrong though. Regardless, I don't think it would be a good choice because of anti-synergy with Ancient Tomb (why get 1 colorless mana when you can get 2 from Ancient Tomb) and Flagstones (you're essentially using it as a Plains).

As for Chrome Mox, it left the build because of card disadvantage. In the old build, you were running 20 lands and 2 Chrome Mox. Four of those lands are Ancient Tombs. I remember Godzilla stating that the very minimum white mana sources for this deck should be 17-18. When you toss Chrome Mox into the mix, sure you get 18 white mana sources but you just lost 2 cards. When playing control matchups, the card disadvantage hurts you.

barron

09-23-2007, 06:35 PM

I just placed 2nd at out local tourney with this build.

4 knight of the holy nimmbus
4 children of korlis
3 true believer
2 lin sivvi
4 exalted angel
4 mother of runes

4 chrome mox
2 mask of memory
4 STP
4 tithe
4 parallax wave
3 jitte
2 sword of light and shadow

4 Ancient tomb
4 flagstones
8 plains

SB
4 samurai of the pale curtain
3 ghostly prison
3 cataclysm
3 disenchant

I was going to run threshold, but at the *very* last second i changed my mind and threw this together. I didn't have all the cards i wanted for the sb at hand, namely null rod. so i had to do without. I expected to hit a lot of aggro, but that wasn't the case. I will post a more thorough report later on, but this is the broad stroke of it

Vs U/W lanstill 2-0
One misplay on game one gave me the game. Game two I held him off with lin sivvi and runes, forcing him to play very tightly, then i clenched the game will a thoroughly baited cataclysm

Vs manaless ichorid 2-0
game one. Fairly close. I held him off from comboin with the koilis, then i pulled lin sivvi and played defense until angels smashed face.
Game two. Turn one koilis, turn 2 samurai, turn 3 angel...

vs 2-land belcher 0-2
null rod would have been helpful.

vs zoo 2-0
Again, lin sivvi and rebels...with mother of runes protection

Semis
Vs SI 2-1
early korlis stops his first turn tendrils. 2nd turn true believer stalls till i win.

game 2- massacre into tendrils

game 3- he mulls to 5. i land 1st turn korlis. he first turn ETW for 10. I buy myself two turns with korlises while i drop a couple other reatures. I stabalize at 1 life

Finals 2land belcher 0-2
Every time i had an answer he had the *other* kill condition, in the elims as well.

Anyway, I really think you all should reconsider what i said about lin sivvi and korlis. Korlis can buy some time against tendrils and wrecks bridge from below as well as fanatic. Against aggro it also creates a recursive "fog" effect, much like genesis and spore frog. she also makes up for some card advantage that this deck lacks. Anyway, she was definitely the card of the day in this deck.

paragon22

12-21-2007, 03:00 AM

Ophidian

12-21-2007, 09:58 AM

So...is a deck with 4x Exalted Angels too slow nowadays? I'm hoping this deck hasn't become obsolete, but recently I noticed some Italian players have used it, which is cool. Anyway, here's my list I used recently at a local tourney, where I came 3rd (Combo is still a problem).

Land (20)
12 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb

Creatures (23)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Silver Knight
4 Mother of Runes
3 Isamaru
3 Savannah Lions
3 Soltari Priest
2 Serra Avenger

Other (17)
4 StP
4 Catalclysm
3 Chrome Mox
2 Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Mask of Memory

SB:
3 Disenchant
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Glowrider

Anyway, the deck worked allright in my aggro/aggro/control meta. What I'm really wondering is whether this deck has any future, and if any one else is having success with it.

With the nigh-ubiquitous TarmoMcFatass running around I'm pretty sure that Cataclysm has been obsoleted, you pretty much need an equipped Exatled to go toe-to-toe with the big boy post-Catty.

I really think he makes Spectral Lynx a much more attractive choice for the deck these days (with or without the Scrubland to power up the regeneration ability)

Jak

12-21-2007, 07:31 PM

Blue seems like a wrothy splash. Tivadar a few months ago came in first with a list running Force, MM, and Brainstorm. Now, I wouldn't hurt the deck too much to fit those cards in, but in the SB they seem like they would do some good against combo. Just play 4 Braisntorm/Ponder and Serendib Efreet main.

Zilla

12-21-2007, 08:55 PM

With the nigh-ubiquitous TarmoMcFatass running around I'm pretty sure that Cataclysm has been obsoleted, you pretty much need an equipped Exatled to go toe-to-toe with the big boy post-Catty.
This is pretty much true. Of course, there's always the option to splash green and run Tarmogoyfs of your own. I don't think I'd try to run an aggro deck in this format without Tarmogoyf at this point, and the manabase is stable enough to support the splash here. (In theory, you could even run Tithe as a pseudo-fetch for Savannah, but I'm not sure that's the right call.)

A green splash also gives you the option to run Armadillo Cloak, which is surprisingly good with Cataclysm, and is technically faster than (or at least as fast) all your other equipment, in that it's "equipped" the same turn it hits play. It's excellent at ending Goyf standoffs and it makes for a huge life total swing early on in the game, which can be vital for winning the war of attrition. If I were going to try to make Angel Stompy work in this environment, I think the light green splash is where I'd start.

technogeek5000

12-22-2007, 03:18 PM

I was thinking of making a angel stompy variant for the CaNG but decided against it because there wasnt enough innovation in my list. What my find was that after searching the Decks to beat, watch, and some of the better established decks is that most decks dont have a maindeck answer to worship outside of removal (thresh cant, gobs cant, sui cant, dragon stompy cant, and a bunch of others cant). 4 Worship backed with 2x moat gave my angel stompy variant countless automatic wins game 1. It also allows you to go all out with your creatures because the opponents are rendered useless. To help make sure i always had creatures on the board i ran 3 mishra's factories so if a boared sweeper cleared my board i could activate it giving me a creautre for worship. Also if you know they have answers to enchantments in their board then their great to side out as you make the cards they side in dead. Also the full compliment of mother was also synergistic with worship. Here was my list.

Lock(6):
4 worship
2 Moat

Creatures(20):
4 Exalted angel
4 Mother of runes
4 Silver Knight
3 Serra avenger
3 Soltari priest
3 Isamaru

Other(10):
4 STP
2 jittes
2 mask
2 SoFI

Mana(23):
12 plains
4 Ancient tomb
3 Chrome mox
3 Mishra's factory
1 Flagstones

I have to go right now so if you have any questions ill answer them later.

Jak

12-22-2007, 03:23 PM

Why Moat? It seems you already control the ground with creatures, that something that sets you back almost as much as your opponent, is bad. I do like Worship. I could be explored a little.

nightmaster

12-22-2007, 05:51 PM

I was considering a green splash not because of Goyf, though he would obviously go in, but because of Teeg. I want Teeg because he is just really useful, giving the deck a little more chance against combo. I just don't know whether he would go main or side. And if he went main how much disynergy he would cause with Cataclysm.

technogeek5000

12-22-2007, 06:45 PM

Why Moat? It seems you already control the ground with creatures, that something that sets you back almost as much as your opponent, is bad. I do like Worship. I could be explored a little.

Because it doesnt control the ground alot of the time. This decks creatures are relatively small so 2 goyfs, some of the dragon stompy creatures (tend to be bigger then ours), horde of goblins (or from me elves), can be problematic. Moat stops them all regardless of what you have on the board and 1 flyer to their face is a win.

Also i want to bring up another card... loxodon warhammer. this card is ridiculous with angel, gaining you 14 life and hitting for 7. Its also great with avenger, priest, and silver knight. The only downside is that it costs 1 more to equip then SoFI but i dont think that will be a problem to much of the time.

Ceridan

12-29-2007, 07:18 AM

Have anyone done detailed playtesting on Aven Mindcensor? I am thinking of including some in my build but I´m not sure about them yet.

tivadar

01-09-2008, 11:55 PM

Well I'm back and trying to be innovative.

As for Mindcensor, I thought about it, but it seemed a bit too conditional. It's good against fetches, but most of the time does not prevent them from finding a land.

I've been looking at morningtide and one card strikes my fancy so far:

Kinsbaile Cavalier 3w
Creature - Kithkin Knight Rare
Knight creatures you control have double strike.
"Double your pleasure; Double your fun; Thats the statemint of the greatmint of the double strike One."

I mean, besides the terrible saying, by himself, with nothing else on the board, he's a 4/2 half-first-striker for 4. No, he's not quite as good as angel. But with equipment, he's god. With a silver knight, he gives a nice boost as well. He seems like he could be a reasonable replacement for another weaker creature in the deck depending on what you're going for.

In the blue splash, he's really making me consider Court Hussar again. I've been planning on testing him a bit and seeing how he does.

Citrus-God

01-10-2008, 11:47 AM

Ophidian

01-10-2008, 01:16 PM

Knight of the Holy Nimbus would be awesome as well. Double Strike makes it even harder to kill.

I've been running Knight of Meadowgrain for the last few weeks and have been really happy with them. The life gain counteracts the Ancient Tomb damage nicely. Those guys with Double-Strike would be pretty nutty

Ceridan

01-10-2008, 06:52 PM

The manacost of 4 is very nice against countertop, they mostly have cards with 1,2,3 and 5 in their decks. I have even considered running Juggernaught because of this (and the amazing manaboost that angelstompy offers).

Do you guys think that angel stompy should consider to main things like trinisphere and chalice (like the other stompys) rather than running manacost 1-2 creatures? During the last weeks I have playtested both Death and Taxes and angelstompy alot, and most of the creatures run in both decks works best with Death and Taxes. But I think it would be boring to just throw the angels into the trashcan.

tivadar

01-10-2008, 11:50 PM

The answer to this I believe is "no". I've tried a white/blue version of faerie stompy and the fact is that it just doesn't measure up. Swords to Plowshares is just too good. However, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't board in chalice. As most of you know, I'm runing Trinket Angel Stompy right now. Even with this I don't mainboard chalice. However, keeping it in the board is a must.

Even with chalice, I keep brainstorm and stp main. The thing is that against the decks where you'll board in chalice, the cards you'll lose are a lot worse than the cards they'll lose... I mean, look at thresh obviously.

Right now my main consideration is whether this deck should even be called angel stompy any more. I'm seriously considering spearmint gum as a replacement for angel. Angel is just slow in the current format, costing a total of 7 mana over 2 turns for 4 damage per turn. Spearmint costs 4 mana, attacks a turn later, and still does 4 damage. However, with any sort of equipment or other knight in play, he absolutely wins over angel.

Ceridan

01-11-2008, 02:57 AM

Maybe the other version would run Oblivion Ring and/or STP. And if you cut Angels, there is no reason not to play Death and Taxes instead.

throst54

01-11-2008, 03:25 AM

Have anyone done detailed playtesting on Aven Mindcensor? I am thinking of including some in my build but I´m not sure about them yet.

He's awesome, I play him and Glowrider as my 3cc drops, Threshold basically sees these as a 'must counter'.
They also let you beat combo, or atleast buy you a lot of time, so you actualy have a chance game one.
Generally all Thresh has to do it counter your equipment and they can generally overrun you easily. Though if they have to counter those and these guys, you are going to get a lot more relevant spells to stick.

EOT Mindcensor seems strong...

Ceridan

01-11-2008, 04:38 AM

tivadar

01-11-2008, 11:49 AM

He's awesome, I play him and Glowrider as my 3cc drops, Threshold basically sees these as a 'must counter'.
They also let you beat combo, or atleast buy you a lot of time, so you actualy have a chance game one.
Generally all Thresh has to do it counter your equipment and they can generally overrun you easily. Though if they have to counter those and these guys, you are going to get a lot more relevant spells to stick.

EOT Mindcensor seems strong...

Yep, good against thresh. How about your goblins matchup? Glowrider is HORRIBLE against goblins... I refuse to add anything to this deck that worsens the goblin matchup. The whole point of this deck is to beat goblins... Mindcensor is mediocre at best against goblins, probably bad. Sure, he stops matron from looking through the entire deck and can hit a fetchland occassionally, but he's also a 2/1 for 3. He trades with fanatic...

JDunkin00

01-12-2008, 01:39 PM

4 mana for a 2 in the butt doesn't sound attractive to me. Double strike on meadowgrain is very sexy.As is doublstrike on nimbus giving him virtually 5 power when blocked. As far as being better than EAngel I doubt it because Flying + Life gain is better. The big deal here is that doublestrike only helps with damage triggers and/or and empty board. Like I said 1st strike is 1st strike then the block will get to kill it anyway if it would have killed it in the first place.

tivadar

01-16-2008, 08:15 PM

Hmm, so, I'm not fully convinced about spearmint gum anymore. His 2 toughness can really hurt. And he's only good WITH equipment, which makes him a bit of a win-more. However, I have been looking at:

Stonehewer Giant 3ww
Creature - Giant Warrior Rare
Vigilance
1{W}, {T}: Search your library for an Equipment card and put it into play. Attach it to a creature you control. Then shuffle your library.
"No matter how strong, an unarmed fighter is no more than a fool."

I realize he's on the expensive side, but he searches for and equips any creature you have at instant speed. Essentially, you play him, next turn, declare attack, and after he's declared, tap him to nab equipment and attach it to him. He MAY be out of the curve for AS, and just too slow in general. What are thoughts on him? The equip also doesn't target, which means if they kill him off, you always have the option of equipping it to a different creature.

gosumog

01-25-2008, 06:12 AM

i havent tested much, but i like 1 drop + 2nd turn ancient tomb mask of memory equip, i prefer more masks/sofi to jit. jits amazing but mask and sofi is a lot stronger in this deck letting u draw and burn, with isamaru/land being your worst cards to reveal, id take draw engine over jit cantrips. i even tested soltari foot soldier ^^. only prob is depending more on your equipment engine is its more disruptable by hate =( but i think second turn mask is somethin to consider more --maybe lions or other 1 drops, splash for mog fan and some reach =)

f|i[p]

01-30-2008, 12:16 AM

Has anyone here tinkered with a green splash,

Creature base would be something like:

4 Mother of runes
4 tarmogoyfs
4 exalted angels
2 Razor golem
3 Silver knights ---- apparently Goblins has declined in popularity.
3 Gaddock Teeg

this makes the creature base a real house, 10 giant threats as well as 3 must counters for Gaddock teeg, although Gaddock may not have as much synergy with cataclysm, he is a must counter, as he stops alot of spells and combo cold on its tracks. Main deck Gaddock Teeg with mother of runes, Tendrills anyone? Bounce? Force of will?They can't even use massacre, wrath, damnation, mutilate, DIsk and the likes

ALthough Deed seems to be the mass removal of choice nowadays.

One problem with teeg is its synergy with cataclysm, which would probably have to be addressed if he is to stick around, as help for the combo and control matchups

Green also gives you Krosan grip on the sideboard which is awesome, gives choke or tsunami against anything blue based.

And even glittering wish for small toolbox on the side which can consist of the 4th teeg and armadillo cloak.

I am even currently trying it with a light black splash for duress as just like 3color angel stompy by Phil stolze did for added combo and control strength, just with less draw but more raw power.

alebronwebb

01-30-2008, 10:47 PM

I've messed around with the green splash, not perfect by any standards though.

lands 23
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Falgstones of Trokair
5 Plain
2 Forest

creatures 19
3 Mother of Runes
4 Soltari Priest
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddok Teeg
3 Silver Knight
3 Exalted Angel

other 18
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Glittering Wish
3 Cataclysm
2 Armadillo Cloak
2 Rancor
2 Mask of Memory
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
1 Armadillo Cloak
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Aura Mutation (haha, craptastic)
1 Dueling Ground
4 Krosan Grip
4 Gilded Light
3 Choke

EDIT: The main problem people might see in the list is Teeg +Cataclysm, obvious dissynergy. I think it is acceptable though since it helps the Storm combo match, it does make Cataclysm more of an "uh-oh" card though. Maybe 3 Teeg main is excessive, I haven't had much time to test it much, 2 Teeg probably would work ecspecially with 3 Glittering Wish (probably SBing 2 Teegs and bring in 1 Angel). At the no Silver Knight situation, since Goblins has been losing popularity lately they don't do much. And besides I couldn't fit them in, I replaced them with Goyf (of course if you play against a lot of Dragon Stompy, then I would find room, maybe). I think the Goblin MU is still strong though *cough Cataclysm cough*, and besides Mother still blocks Gobbos to no end. The green splash also lets you play Dueling Ground with kills Goblins pre-board, which is pretty much the plan g1, Wish for Grounds, drop Priest and Cloak and watch them cry. On the other hand you could just not be fun and just play Cataclysm and kill Gobbos.

Curby

01-30-2008, 11:01 PM

It's kind of interesting that adding a splash doesn't seem to weaken the manabase too much, except against nonbasic hate. From what I remember having played with and against Angel Stompy, it really wants to see 2WW mana early. Tomb + Mox + Plains allows you to attack with an angel or with an equipped knight on turn 2. The Plains can be replaced with fetches and Savanahs, but it's no sure thing that the Mox can make both colors. Have you ever been color-screwed in testing?

alebronwebb

01-30-2008, 11:12 PM

I haven't really been that mana-screwed with the splash, take this with a grain of salt since I haven't played the deck that much. Getting green has never been that much of a problem since I only need one green most of the time. Non-basic hate hurts, but the basic forest are really a last resort because you want to see that WW. I'm not liking the Mox in the deck, they will go out. And Perhaps I'm over-worried about Tombs, I probably should give them another go.

Arsenal

01-30-2008, 11:24 PM

To me, Stompy variants all need Tomb + Traitors to power out busted turn 1/2 plays. I see that in your build, outside of 2 Chrome Mox, you have mana-parity with your opponent (assuming both of you drop a land every turn). This is bad, imo, and I would suggest you keep Tomb + Traitors. You have to rework the manabase still to accomodate two colors, but this is do-able.

f|i[p]

01-30-2008, 11:46 PM

On your list alebronwebb,

what is the solitari priest for? Why cut down the angels to 2? I think the creature base I gave is quite ok already 10 real threats, 7 protection creatures,3 silver knights --although the silver knights can be replaced by spectral lynx since the rise of tarmogoyfs, but is metagame dependent.

As for glittering wish,I tried it a few, and it doesnt really provide much help aside from gaddock teeg, armadillo cloak, and dueling grounds(goblins) on the sideboard. I'm still not sold on it taking some space. cataclysm still rocks.Although you cant play, cataclysm right away with teeg on the board, landstill wont have force of will, fact or fiction,wrath or whatever. They still have deed and stp to kill teeg.

The creature base I proposed, I tested with goblins, and kicked their ass 4-0. Tested against landstill, and won 1 game out of 4, this is due to them running out of gas and trying to answer angels, goyf ,golems as well trying to stp gaddock... But it is still really hard. But I am assuming with chokes and krosan grips,armageddons, needles on the sideboard it would really help the matchup.

Its deed we really want to avoid against 4c landstill, and thats what really hurts us alot.

The splash doesnt really hurt the mana base, and I think the acceleration is still needed.

alebronwebb

01-31-2008, 12:20 AM

Soltari priest is still a solid evasion creature (except against Sui Black) and is a great threat post 'Clysm. And his virtual unblockablity is his biggest draw, to me atleast. Yeah, Silver Knight is bigger but he doesn't do much against non-goblin decks, which Priest does quite well. And, yes i probably i should had 1 more Angel, I took number 3 out since all the accel I have right now is Mox. I actually like the Wish toolbox, again I'm probably being biased as I love toolboxes.

I agree that the deck still needs accleration, I'm just not sure that the 2 mana lands are ideal. I only run 4 equipment and 2-3 Angel, the rest are W, WG, WW and such.

EDIT: Also Priest, Imo, is the one of the best aggro creature in the deck. He carries equipment and Cloak better than anybody. A Priest plus Mask is a serious draw engine. A Priest plus Cloak can win the game, or turn it around, after a couple of attacks. He is such a powerhouse in the deck that I can't dream of taking him out.

Double Edit: Updated my first list at the top of the page. Added 4 Tombs and messed around with the mana-base. And addressed a few problems.

tivadar

02-05-2008, 07:34 PM

Just a comment on manabase. I do the white/blue splash with 4 2 mana colorless lands (3 tombs, 1 city) and I almost never get manascrewed. Granted, blue has the advantage of brainstorm, but still, 2 friend colors are easily splashable without hurting your base. 3 is where you get into problems.

As for green vs. blue, I really think the combo control at this point has evened out. Teeg is better than Meddling, but blue gets Force of Will.

Alebronwebb, a couple notes:

I'd suggest 3 tomb, 1 city. Double tomb is always bad to get, as is double city, but city and tomb is ideal. Still, you'd prefer double tomb over double city most of the time.

This may sound odd, but 7 plains are too much. I'd suggest dropping that to 5 and adding a couple flagstones. They are rarely a tempo loss when played right (especially with only 2) and just have amazing synergy with cataclysm.

I still don't see why cloak is preferred to rancor. Sure, lifegain is nice, but that's what angel is for, and -2 mana is huge.

Silver knight is better than soltari. The one thing you leave out is the first strike, and the additional defense. First strike, however, means that knight beats a lot of creatures it normally wouldn't. It also means knight gets jitte counters before priest... Believe me, I've tested both.

Finally, more angels please? I've debated dropping this slot, but the fact is angel is just so GOOD. 4 Mothers is probably excessive. I might try 3 mothers and 2 golems. Shrug, I just never really saw the appeal of razor golem. Of course, I splash, but still, golem is a turn 3 play at the earliest. Blue's got a better deal with Serendib. Green's got goyfs. Sure, golem survives cataclysm, with no equipment or other creatures... But why? Vigilance isn't THAT good.

EDIT: perhaps soltari does deserve a bit more testing post-goblins... I'll give him some more thought.
EDITEDIT: I looked at thermal gliders for a while. An additional mana, but it's colorless. I don't know, I never overly liked them though.

alebronwebb

02-05-2008, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the comments. I'll have to try the 3 Tombs 1 City, and re-add the 2 Flagtones. At the Cloak vs. Rancor issue, this as been in my head for a while. Cloak's toughness bonus and life-gain is good, but so is Rancor's sheer speed and it's little retrieval trick. Cloak is fetchable with Wish so cutting 1 from MD might be okay, I'll probably make a 2/2 split and see how that works (although Rancor plus a Cloak in the wish board might be the way to go).
The Silver Knight/Soltari has also been milling away in my mind, although I think Soltari is a great creature in the deck (and is nuts with any Aura/Equipment). I'm honestly not comfortable at all with cutting Soltari from the deck. I might take out Razor Golems for 3 Knights. 4 Moms have been annoying at times, so I am comfortable dropping them to three.

I'll edit my initial post with these changes.

f|i[p]

02-06-2008, 01:42 AM

@tivadar

I do actually think that teeg is stronger than mage at some points, but mage stops deed, teeg doesnt. I think Deed is the most commonly used mass removal today.

Also, green gives you tarmogoyf, which is a very huge beater. sometimes landstill has to trade 1 deed just to kill 1 tarmo.

tomb and city
I have never tried this in angel stompy, seems interesting, Ill have to try this out myself.

@mother
I think 4 is excessive at times, but it seems that mother loves me soo much she keeps on showing up in my hand, then I get to draw her too.. I might cut her to 3 as you suggested.

Razor golems are good, its a big body, doesnt get hit by deed, its great with equipment on it. Its great with cataclysm. ALthough serendib is good as well just because of evasion and constantly casting him 2nd or 3rd turn.

Rancor seems good.. with priest or silver knight, a 4/2 shadow/first striker trampler is a must kill although what would you cut for rancor?

. Priest could be added depending on the metagame. I still have knights over priest as I still see little goblins running around the tournament.

MasterBlaster

02-28-2008, 01:42 AM

I have a question about how to play the deck since the inclusion of Cataclysms.

Before Cataclysm was in the deck the deck played all out and didn't hold anything back. Now that Cataclysm is ran would it be wise to hold some equipment/creatures in hand until after Cataclysm is played? Would it be wise to hold things in hand until after the Cataclysm even if you don't yet have the Cataclysm in hand?

Thanks in advance for the responses.

from Cairo

02-28-2008, 01:53 AM

Clearly you play with Cataclysm in mind. If there is no reason to extend you're board position further than you would hold the extra threats, if there is a reason to be playing the threats IE you're in risk of losing if you don't play out additional blockers than you would put them into play.

Versus something like Landstill where you're threats outclass their manlands then there is often no reason to over extend into their sweepers, and if you top deck into a Cataclysm you will still have some gas in hand for post clysm, if its not countered.

As opposed to something like Goblins where you know they don't have sweepers and playing out an additional blocker even if it may bite it to clysm later is probably the safer play than holding creatures/equipment.

Against

03-03-2008, 04:23 PM

How is Angel Stompy's match vs. Dragon Stompy? It seems like it should fair well with so many basic lands and Pro Red creatures.

Zilla

03-03-2008, 10:20 PM

To me, Stompy variants all need Tomb + Traitors to power out busted turn 1/2 plays.
This is true of every Tomb Stompy variant except Angel Stompy. The reason why it's different here is because the deck is extremely reliant on WW by turn two (or three at the very latest) in every single game it plays. 7-8 colorless lands hurts consistency far too much for this to be possible, which is why City of Traitors was replaced with Chrome Mox in Angel Stompy loong long ago (about two weeks after the B/R split with Vintage).

Also, unlike pretty much every other Tomb Stompy variant, Angel Stompy doesn't run maindeck Chalice of the Void, which is really THE busted turn one play that those decks are trying to achieve with a full compliment of 8 double-colorless lands. Those decks' curves start at 3. Angel Stompy's starts at one. The comparison between Angel Stompy and those decks isn't particularly apt in this regard.

The 1.5 (pre-Legacy) version of the deck did run 3 Cities, but only because there was absolutely no alternative. The deck also ran a full compliment of Skullclamps as well as 3 Decree of Justice, so it had more ways to dump excess colorless mana, where modern builds simply do not.

al the great

03-03-2008, 10:27 PM

How is Angel Stompy's match vs. Dragon Stompy? It seems like it should fair well with so many basic lands and Pro Red creatures.

I'm sure by a week from now someone will have already tested it and post. I have Angel Stompy but I'm 4 cards short of Dragon Stompy (City of Traitors) so I gotta wait a few days before my store has em :(.

Against

03-05-2008, 01:14 AM

So, I'm not sure which I like better: Serra Avenger or Razor Golem.

They are comparable, because they are both being played on the same turns. Serra flies. Flying is good. Serra backed by Mom takes down a Pit Dragon. Razor is a 3/4. 3/4 is good against Mongoose and can't be Bolted. Serra always costs :w: :w: . Razor could cost :2: or :1:, but could easily cost :4: or ...even :5:. Drawing it after Cataclysm could be especially bad.

Sonne

03-06-2008, 09:11 AM

Hi, i've read mst of the topic and i have a couple of questions to ask since i just came back a few days ago playing magic after a long stop.I used to play a angel stompy back in time but i've seen that now probably my build is a nice, epic fail, since it's super-outdated.

As I've said I read most of the topic but still couldn't find a ""common"" updated build of the deck, probably because everyone likes to change something inside at his likings and that's normal, but it doesn't help me to figure out what are now the "required" cards(even though i kinda have an idea of what could be a working base)

Said that I really want to ask this question before getting in the deck discussion:

Angel stompy is still a good deck to play in a tournament environment?I feel that now the deck is out of place, atleast where I am (my meta is quite bad for a mono white stompy).Just for giving out a info, there are only two monowhite decks in a range of probably 90miles and more and 1 UW deck, the two white are weenies (mine and another random one) and they're slowly dieing

After this probably useless wall of text here is a list of what i played 'till now:

Main Deck:
2 Exalted Angel
2 Mother of runes
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Savannah Lions
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Monk
4 Soltari Priest
4 Whipcorder
3 Armageddon
4 Crusade/empyrial armor
3 Parallax Wave

22 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Absolute Grace/light of day
2 Absolute Law
1 Armageddon
2 Exalted Angel
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 White knight
1 Karma

ok it's a really old deck, a bit casual maybe, with a bad side, almost no tech or atleast nothing too expensive.

Starting from this I actually don't know what changed to the mainbase apart from this

savannah lions got kicked out as parallax and armageddon(for cataclysm)

side got reworked of course since meta changed a lot (back in time i had to counter a lot of red/black decks, but can't remember them well..)

I've seen also that the mana base changed drastically (tombs flagstones, chrome mox and such), also the good old mass finishers(crusade/glorious anthem) got kicked out and also the empyrial armor finisher got scraped for something different,it seems that the only thing that stayed almost the same is the creature base...

so after all this, what you think could be a "commonly accepted" angel stompy, if it still works in tournaments as a deck?

If I've said something offtopic or either i've repeted some obvious concept I'm sorry but 70 pages of topic quite killed me xD plus i'm again a noob in terms of cards/meta/mechanics so i could really need some suggestions for fixing the deck =P

thanks a lot xD

(wheew what a first post/wall of text xD)

Ophidian

03-06-2008, 10:55 AM

How is Angel Stompy's match vs. Dragon Stompy? It seems like it should fair well with so many basic lands and Pro Red creatures.

The DS matchup hinges on 2 cards they play.

Chalice @ 2 and dubs Sulfur Elemental (if they're still playing it).

From my experience, our diverse threat density and solid creature removal has made this a decent matchup.

Post SB they pretty much own us if they're running any combination of Anarchy or Flashfires. If you think they're running Anarchy, always keep a Wave on the board so you can "wave" out your dudes in response and have the Anarchy kill your wave and return your guys back to play immediately. Game 2 and 3 you should always sandbag lands so you don't end up getting 12 for 1'd by a Flashfires.

Dilettante

03-06-2008, 11:21 AM

How is Angel Stompy's match vs. Dragon Stompy? It seems like it should fair well with so many basic lands and Pro Red creatures.

Don't forget a few things:

1) Pro Red does not protect from Jitte... or Sword of Fire and Ice
2) Gathan Raiders is colorless until proven otherwise
3) Rakdos Pit Dragons DO fly...
4) You'll see maindeck Akroma, Angel of Fury as much as Sulfur Elemental
5) SB Powder Keg can hurt
6) Don't expect to ever see Anarchy/Flashfires any time soon

Against

03-06-2008, 12:00 PM

Don't expect to ever see Anarchy/Flashfires any time soon

Yeah, I don't expect either of those cards. No one will SB against AS or WW.

Arsenal

03-06-2008, 01:49 PM

Sonne

03-06-2008, 02:37 PM

(1.) Combo rolls over you game 1. Even post-board, they should still steam roll you. To them, you're nothing more than White Weenie Plus.

(2.) You are very vulnerable to CotV, Trinisphere, and board sweepers. Your Dragon Stompy opponent has no trouble laying down a turn 1 CotV @ 1, or turn 1 Trinisphere. If you're relying on your 3 Parallax Wave to save you from a Deed @ 3, EE @ 2, or WoG, then that's a pretty big risk.

(3.) Why is this aggro deck better than other aggro decks? Specifically, Dragon Stompy?

Your considerations are in line of what I see now that I came back into play,but remember i should have said in some place in my post that that was a deck I knew wasn't anymore working (once upon a time, probably 6+ years ago, for me it worked like a charm).

By the way this are my answers and my thoughts about your 3 points:
1)Combo decks for a white aggro, is always a nice problem.Atleast for me it have always been with every whiteish deck.You really have to search new ways (mana tithe didn't exist back in time for example) to stop them, and being honest, i really don't know effective ones...It can be surely lowered the % of losses against the combo decks but still i think it's a concern for the AS, though I really need a updated list of "already known working cards" so for this first posts have patience i'm gonna learn soon what changed

2)WoG deeds and such things are a bane for all my decks, apart the other WW version of this deck that used the known strategy of soltari + bonusequipment/enchantment + cataclysm, or any thing that works well with cataclysm (i loved soltari priest + empyrial armor after a cataclysm...).What is your proposal to fix this anyway? I really don't know what it could be done...

Cotv wasn't counted in that list...it didn't exist when i played :tongue: for the trinisphere thingie we could always use a abolish or seal or disenchant, anything

3) it shouldn't be better, well maybe it was in 2002 or something like this when i played it extensively, maybe not even at that time since it was a really low budget deck for low level shop tournaments (not even dci sanctioned so who could have cared of spending a lot?).That's why i'm posting here, to find a AS updated that works better than other decks of the same type, IF there is one that is better.I really want to try some serious tournaments but i can't go with a outdated deck against a meta i barely know.

So, again, angel stompy is good in tournaments?Is still played? or atleast, there's a common base used for building it?

I've already read the topic, but there are atleast 40 versions with every possible splash and every possible thing, but no post like the first one that says a good base from when we can work..If there is and i've missed I'm sorry, still is hard to read 70 pages of topic :tongue:

Against

03-06-2008, 05:49 PM

So, again, angel stompy is good in tournaments?Is still played? or atleast, there's a common base used for building it?

I've already read the topic, but there are atleast 40 versions with every possible splash and every possible thing, but no post like the first one that says a good base from when we can work..If there is and i've missed I'm sorry, still is hard to read 70 pages of topic :tongue:

If you're going to alter it, I'd start with this build:

//NAME: Angel Stompy

// Mana
17 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb

// Beats
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus / Soltari Priest
4 Razor Golem
4 Exalted Angel

// Equipment
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Glowrider

Arsenal

03-06-2008, 06:02 PM

^
That build seems more reasonable, especially post-board, against combo. 1st turn CotV @ 0/1 and 2nd turn Glowrider are absolute beatings versus combo. I've always been of the opinion that Mono-white Stompy decks MUST run Cataclysm, as it's pretty much the only way to recover from an disadvantageous boardstate. I like that build the most, although still, it seems like it's just White Weenie Plus.

Against

03-06-2008, 11:26 PM

It is WW+. Though I think it's chronologically the first Tomb-driven "Stompy" deck. Also, "Stompy" would kind of assume it's a beatdown deck. Faerie Stompy follows this, but Dragon Stompy isn't really that archetype, it should be renamed. It's closer to Ponza with Blood Moon effects instead of LD.

I don't really see how Chalice can fit into the deck at all, even the SB. Chalice @ 1 makes 8-12 of your cards dead. Chalice @ 2 makes 8-12 of your cards dead. I guess you can SB out your Moms and Swords in the combo match for Chalice and Glowrider, but it seems to be really bad for the deck to play with or against. I'm glad my local meta is just kids with piles of red cards (Burn/Goblins).

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 10:30 AM

That isn't really accurate. Faerie Stompy runs LOTS of disruption maindeck (CotV, Pithing Needle, FoW, Misdirection). Also, their creatures are far more utility/Fish-esque than simple, effecient beaters (with the exception of their "core" creatures).

Out of the 3 Stompy variants that have had any sort of following (Angel, Faerie, Dragon), Angel is the only one with almost zero maindeck disruption, and Angel is the only one not running utility/Fish-esque creatures. It's no wonder why the pecking order is Dragon > Faerie > Angel. It's nothing more than WW+. Combo laughs at it, control can handle it, and other aggro decks WRECK it.

ThoseWhoFearTomorrow

03-07-2008, 11:24 AM

other aggro decks WRECK it.

Not sure where you came up with this. Angel Stompy was built to wreck aggro. And if it falls behind aggro, it can reset with Cataclysm to an advantageous board position of creature+golem or creature+equipment.

It may no longer be this way. I haven't played this deck since before GP:Flash since it was my intention to take it there and wreck gobbos all day. This deck could be a bit outdated, but I would still think about playing it in a highly aggro meta.

Combo laughs at it, control can handle it

obv

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 11:30 AM

Not sure where you came up with this. Angel Stompy was built to wreck aggro. And if it falls behind aggro, it can reset with Cataclysm to an advantageous board position of creature+golem or creature+equipment.

Except for the fact that CotV @ 1 or CotV @ 2, or a 1st turn Trinisphere rape Angel Stompy. Coincidentally, the other Stompy decks run a combination of the aforementioned rape tools. Also, if you're relying solely on Cataclysm to bail you out of a tight spot, then as a Faeire/Dragon Stompy player, I'm applying the pressure on you, forcing you to find answers for MY aggro. And who says Cataclysm will even resolve through my FoW?

Again, Angel Stompy might've been hot stuff back when it was conceived, but it's been outclassed by other aggro decks, imo.

Against

03-07-2008, 11:38 AM

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 11:48 AM

I don't think other aggro decks have an edge on Angel Stompy. It does have a superior creature base and doesn't fall victim to simple spot removal. White just doesn't have like...any disruption. Mana Tithe is about it and that doesn't fit into Angel Stompy at all. Maybe...Oblivion Rings need to be worked in somehow.

I do not think that Angel Stompy's creature base is superior to it's Stompy cousins. Faerie Stompy simply flies over 90% of your creature base using the same equipment. Also, how do you even cast your creatures when they play CotV @ 0, 1, or 2? Dragon Stompy's creature base is fearsome as well. Not only does Dragon Stompy run CotV AND Trinisphere, but Sulfur Elemental, as well as Akroma, Angel of Fury. Although Angel Stompy has lots of Pro: Red guys, we have morphed Gathan Raiders, morphed/unmorphed Akroma, Sulfur Elemental (2 out in play = GGPO to Angel Stompy pretty much), and whatever guys you run that don't have Pro: Red, we can easily kill w/ Pyrokinesis or Arc-Slogger. Dragon Stompy, using hellbent and Seething Song, can easily race Angel Stompy anyday of the week.

Also, how does Angel Stompy's creature not die to simple spot removal? None of your guys have Shroud, do they?

Dilettante

03-07-2008, 12:45 PM

Just remember the vulnerabilities... Look at the some of the most predominant methods of creature removal these days:

Spot
Smother
Ghastly Demise
Shriekmaw
Swords to Plowshares
Mogg Fanatic
Lightning Bolt

Mass
Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed

Steal
Sower of Temptation (kind-of)
Vedalken Shackles (kind-of)

If an 'out' is Cataclysm, you have to remember that your top creature must be superior to theirs... Exalted Angel is fairly synergistic, but anything else has to be equipped in order to pose a similar threat. Here's a silly proposal, amended to GodzillA's list that might be condusive to the current metagame:

+4 Gathan Raiders
+3 Parallax Wave (or keep Cataclysm)
+2 Sword of Light and Shadow or Fire and Ice
+3 Chrome Mox
-2 Plains
-4 Cataclysm
-4 Razor Golem
-2 Mask of Memory

SB: 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain or Tormod's Crypt

Parallax Wave is possibly the best offensive/defensive weapon available to a smart player. It does not wreck mana curves like Cataclysm, but Cataclysm only hurts you more if they rely on a very low mana or land-based curve (like the existing Stompys). *HOWEVER* one can use one or the other for this depending on personal meta preference. Gathan Raiders provides the deck a second beater that is resilient to some of the existing removal at a tempoed pace. You have to factor in your opponents' mass effects in addition to your own.

As for the Samurai, having your own 'Leyline' in play is invaluable in a meta filled with everyone's favorite piece of bad art that looks like Jackson Pollock puked on a Care Bears cel, dredge, and random IGG blorfs can't hurt... though some may prefer Tormod's Crypt...

If you have a generally slower metagame with more control, I'd somehow stuff in Aether Vial. Forcing your opponent to burn their 3-cost removal to take away a 1-cost artifact is well-worth it for your tempo.

Note: I am stupid.

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 01:16 PM

Dilettante

03-07-2008, 01:55 PM

The point I was trying to make is why would I want to play Angel Stompy over it's Stompy cousins? What common matchups does Angel Stompy > Faerie/Dragon Stompy? I really can't think of any outside of really random aggro, and even then, I'd bet that CotV @ 1/2 and Trinisphere, followed up with hellbent equipped beaters, would do just fine versus random trash.

Parallax Wave and Swords to Plowshares.

It's aggro-control with an aggro bent as opposed to disruption-control. Dragon Stompy and Faerie Stompy are purely aggressive and stay that way, save Yamaelle's recent versions using Sower of Temptation. Angel Stompy is reactive and hides a few more tricks. It's a personal preference depending on meta, but for a general meta, I'd prefer Dragon Stompy overall. Everyone is in a different metagame situation. If I were in a Dragon Stompy environment, I would run a variant of Angel instead... since Parallax Wave is monstrous against such a matchup.

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 02:12 PM

Parallax Wave and Swords to Plowshares.

It's aggro-control with an aggro bent as opposed to disruption-control. Dragon Stompy and Faerie Stompy are purely aggressive and stay that way, save Yamaelle's recent versions using Sower of Temptation. Angel Stompy is reactive and hides a few more tricks. It's a personal preference depending on meta, but for a general meta, I'd prefer Dragon Stompy overall. Everyone is in a different metagame situation. If I were in a Dragon Stompy environment, I would run a variant of Angel instead... since Parallax Wave is monstrous against such a matchup.

If those are the only two reasons, then I'd gladly take the numerous disruption pieces played by Faerie/Dragon over Parallax Wave and StP. CotV > StP. Pithing Needle > Parallax Wave.

Dilettante

03-07-2008, 02:14 PM

If those are the only two reasons, then I'd gladly take the numerous disruption pieces played by Faerie/Dragon over Parallax Wave and StP. CotV > StP. Pithing Needle > Parallax Wave.

Therein lies the jumbling... CotV screws up Pithing Needle... Is a Dragon Stompy player going to devote time to screwing up your disruption when it's reactive and they have to be proactive? They blow time while you get openings for tempo drops. Of course, one has to realize... you are not playing against only one deck... You have to watch your field. Angel Stompy has better matchups than Dragon against fewer decks... in general... but it is less hated out. Granted, I see plenty of Deathmark due to the ugly mug... which does not help that your opponents that pack a 1 black kill card for just about everything you have. It does have a better matchup against reanimators that can get off the ground... and Survival variants I see about here... Goblins is a crapshoot for either side.

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 02:18 PM

Dilettante

03-07-2008, 02:21 PM

If I'm a Faerie Stompy player, I'm running both maindeck, w/ ways to tutor for them (1st turn Trinket Mage). Who says I'll drop CotV, then Needle? I can just as easily do Needle first, then CotV, then what are you going to do? Again, if I Trinket Mage, and I think Parallax Tide will be a bigger problem if resolved, then I go for Needle. If it's still early, and I need threats to stick, then I'll go for CotV.

Again, those 2 cards you mentioned aren't enough for me to not play Faerie/Dragon Stompy disruption pieces (CotV, Trinisphere, Pithing Needle). That isn't even getting into other disrupting spells (Blood Moon, FoW, Misdirection, etc).

But remember metagames... You might exist in one where everyone and their mother packs piles of Chills and Hydroblasts/BEB for one and Pyroblast/REB for the other. There is no such thing as a purely dominant deck because anything can be hated out. Factor that in. No one hates on white and everyone WISHES they could hate on green.

Against

03-07-2008, 02:27 PM

I guess if one just likes Angels better than Dragons or Faeries. Faerie Stompy is really expensive to build with Sea Drakes in addition to the regular Moxes and equipment. Dragon Stompy is actually very reasonable price-wise. Lots of cheap rares and commons. I'll probably put it together when I get a chance.

I just like White Weenie. Watching the 1998 U.S. Nationals VHS tape with Matt Linde is what actually got me into competitive Magic. So, I just like White cards.

Arsenal

03-07-2008, 02:32 PM

In a developed meta, with an appropriate showing of each archetype's best, Angel has more problematic matchups than it's cousins. Which begs the question, from a competitive standpoint, why would you play a deck that loses to ABCD, but wins EF, when you could play a deck that loses to EF, but wins ABCD? I don't get it.

Sonne

03-07-2008, 03:59 PM

Probably because abcd are not that much played in that meta and EF are totally dominating?

If you say that there is a developed meta that has a nice rappresentation of all decks then ok, as I've learned angel stompy isn't really anymore a solid choice,or atleast it seems.

Probably another possible idea behind the choice of the AS deck instead of others is the "rogue" possibility it has, for example in my meta as i'm seeing these days since there is only a single white deck around, no one is ready to stop a monowhite with a lot of dedicated hate, there is just the common(and also really low) hate against aggro decks(probably towards the goblin deck since i've seen most of the hate is towards every idea of goblin)so if I would bring a totally rogue deck to the tournament probably is a better choice than taking a well known deck that everyone can hate.

This is what it comes to mind at the moment, probably there are more reasons though being honest everyday i understand more of the new magic meta (also in t1 and t2) white is a dieing color...Most of REAL tournaments use it as a splash IF they use it.

From a competitive point of view I can only think of a surprise deck...probably I'm wrong but still I've got some work to do to get updated.

Just a random thought, what about a integration of the AS idea with some extras of the D+T?Or what about switching some less used creature for a better disruption base? If artifacts are a problem why not taking some artifact hate in main?Even a 3x abolish could help against CotV since is rarely set @3..

Just random thoughts I'll soon elaborate and post a list with this changes...though it kinda loses his main goal...

Against

03-09-2008, 11:46 PM

About Raiders, they would be extremely bad in Angel Stompy. The deck never really gets or wants to be Hellbent. Golem or Serra Avenger seem to be the most efficient beaters for that drop slot.

Vindicator101

03-14-2008, 04:08 PM

I don't know if it had been mentioned before or discussed earlier in the thread, but after looking through a bunch of cards I came across Griffin Guide. It gives the same +2/+2 that is given by the sword of Fire and ice, but comes online for 2 less mana. Although you lose the card drawing/creature removal, you gain earlier damage, evasion in flying(knights,hounds,golems), and allows, if you like to overextend a little into your own cataclysm as if you kill the creature you practically get the same thing to replace it. This could potentially allow for you to have 3+ creatures on the board or an equipped creature along with another 2/2 flyer! I haven't really gotten to test it, but its seems like it could be a legitimate card for the deck.

Zilla

03-14-2008, 07:37 PM

other aggro decks WRECK it.
This is flat out wrong. The deck was designed to destroy aggro, and it does (or at least it did before the printing of Tarmogoyf).

Except for the fact that CotV @ 1 or CotV @ 2, or a 1st turn Trinisphere rape Angel Stompy.
This is completely untrue. Hell, I've played builds of Angel Stompy that run Trinishpere of its own in the board against combo. The deck is designed to achieve 3 mana by turn 2 or 3 at the latest in every single game it plays. Trinishpere is largely irrelevant to its gameplan.

It also runs Chalice in the SB, which it can play around quite effectively. If you look at the deck's curve, it's extremely diverse: 12 1cc, 12 2cc, 2 3cc, 4 4cc, 4 5cc and 4 6cc. Casting cost-based cards like Chalice, Engineered Explosives, and Deed, while somewhat effective, are by no means overwhelming threats against this deck.

Incidentally, Angel Stompy is favored in the Faerie Stompy matchup. Of the several times I've faced Faerie Stompy in actual real-life tournaments, I've never lost a match against it with Angel Stompy. Angel Stompy is more consistent, more threat dense, and has more removal. This isn't to say that Angel Stompy is a better deck; only that it's favored in the matchup.

The point I was trying to make is why would I want to play Angel Stompy over it's Stompy cousins? What common matchups does Angel Stompy > Faerie/Dragon Stompy?
It's better against Vial Goblins by a lot. It's also a much more consistent deck than Faerie Stompy, because its manabase is much more stable. By and large though, you're correct that it's only truly better against pure aggro.

In a developed meta, with an appropriate showing of each archetype's best, Angel has more problematic matchups than it's cousins. Which begs the question, from a competitive standpoint, why would you play a deck that loses to ABCD, but wins EF, when you could play a deck that loses to EF, but wins ABCD? I don't get it.
I'm not sure anyone has asserted that you should. Angel Stompy was the first of the mono-colored Tomb aggro decks. It was created years ago, at a time when there was essentially no combo in the format, and control was kept very securely in check by fast aggro decks like Vial Goblins, 3c Zoo, and RG Beats. Angel Stompy utterly dominates those archetypes, which is what I created it to do in the first place. In the 5(ish) years since its creation, the metagame has shifted VERY heavily towards combo and control, while Angel Stompy has changed very little. It's a metagame deck, and this isn't the metagame for it.

Bear in mind that you're asking why anyone would play a deck created 5 years ago over a deck created in the last year or two. There's no reason to play Angel Stompy over Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy unless your metagame is comprised largely of pure aggro and aggro-control decks. I don't think anyone said otherwise.

nix

11-24-2008, 06:14 PM

I have Played a very different build of angel stompy at my local legacy tournament, and the first time i played it i won 4-0. My build i think does a lot better against decks like thresh, here it is:

Mana:
4x Flagstones of trokair
10x plains
4x City of traitors
4x Ancient tomb
4x Chrome mox
1x Mox Diamond

Beats:
4x Exalted Angel
4x Windborn Muse
2x Stonecloaker
4x Glowrider
4x Aven Mindcensor

Control:
3x Thorn of amethyst
3x Magus of the Moat (i am poor)
4x Chalice of the void
3x Oblivion Ring

Equip:
2x Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

I know that isnt 60 cards, ill look it up and have it good in a few hours, but you can see the direction of the deck at this point.

Sideboard:
4x Armageddon
3x Pithing Needle
1x Thorn of amethyst
4x Suppression Field
3x Ghostly prison

There are some cards that i was looking at switching out, for instance, Thorn of amethyst, and all the ghostly prisons in the board, and i would like to get a fourth pithing needle to run. Trinisphere i think is a good option, instead of the thorns. Also, the glowrider needs to come out, i think, amybe swords to plowshares can replace it, or some maindeck armageddons.

i Think that with thresh and landstill being such powerfull decks today, the deck needs more control.
What do you think about this new direction?

Phantom

11-24-2008, 07:41 PM

This isn't Angel Stompy, it's Moat Stompy (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8506) (previously Gargangel Stompy). I'd love to talk about your build, but we should do it in that thread.

tivadar

11-25-2008, 03:28 PM

Perhaps this is an entirely new deck, but I wanted to post this suggestion here.

Currently, the main issue, in my mind, with Angel Stompy is in fact two-fold:
A. Cataclysm is rather bad in the current meta (it feeds goyf)
B. Angel is now just plain too slow (it costs 7 mana in total)

As most of you know, I play Wu Angel Stompy, and I've been playing with a build that drops angel that I like much better. The advantage of angel is that it's close to equipment + creature in a single card, being a 4/5 with lifelink. However, this deck lives or dies off of its equipment, so I've continued to fall back on Kinsbaile Cavalier to fill Angel's role.

Basically, double strike + equipment = win. This also has the advantage of only costing mono-white, making splashing a good deal easier. Not to mention, one can play silver knight alongside it for synergy.

I'm not going to post a list at this point, as mine would necessarily splash blue. I will say though that perhaps this deck should consider kinsbaile. He's a house!

Swing4Five

11-25-2008, 04:25 PM

The advantage of angel is that it's close to equipment + creature in a single card, being a 4/5 with lifelink. However, this deck lives or dies off of its equipment, so I've continued to fall back on Kinsbaile Cavalier to fill Angel's role.

Sooo because the deck is somewhat reliant on seeing equipment you want to make the deck more reliant on it's equipment? That seems ass-backwards to me. Not to mention losing evasion and lifelink which helps you stay in the game agianst aggro and combo if you manage to last long enough to get a swing in. Yes, I did have to look up Kinsbaile Cavalier, yes I have seen it before, and yes I did forget about it, because it's bad.

tivadar

11-25-2008, 05:09 PM

There's really no "somewhat" involved anymore. This deck now *is* reliant on seeing equipment against almost any form of aggro. What I'm suggesting is to use a creature that's more synergistic with that equipment and with some of the other creatures already in the deck.

This deck used to be good because Angel could win on its own. That's rarely if ever the case anymore. Tombstalker beats it, goblins race or kill it, and goyf is at least nearly as big as it for a whole lot less mana.

I'm throwing a suggestion out there as to a possible replacement for Angel. And yes, I think Cavalier is superior to Angel. The primary reason for that is that he only costs 4 mana rather than 7 for essentially 4 power. The evasion is the big loss here. Life gain means so little now, though, in fairness, it can't be entirely overlooked. Also, please note that Kinsbaile acts as pseudo-equipment himself when combined with Silver Knight and Knight of the Holy Nimbus.

I've got no problem if you are not a fan, but the fact is that in the right build, he's actually rather good.

Mordel

11-25-2008, 05:24 PM

tivadar

11-25-2008, 07:53 PM

I don't think I would play an equipment card that can swing for four, dies to bolt/stb and gives doublestrike...that costs four. Pass. I'd feel more inclined to run fireshrieker...whick I would also never run...that's just me though.

I don't think I would play an equipment card that can swing for 4, dies to stp and bolt (for a turn) and gives lifegain and flying.... that costs 7. Pass. I'd feel more inclined to run loxodon warhammer (which is actually cheaper!)... which I would also never run... that's just me though.

How is Angel better?

Mordel

11-27-2008, 04:47 AM

I refuse to explain why a 2/3 knight that gives knights doublestrike is worse than exalted angel...okay, maybe a quick list, but I swear to satan that I will not fucking provide rebuttles to any further argument:

-angel does not require other creatures/equipment to be effective
-angel flies, period...no strings attached
-angel has spirit link, period...no strings attached
-angel has a fatter ass

Cavalier has its own set of advatages, but quite frankly angel is proven to be awesome in the archetype and does not require equipment to be good and has fucking flying. Cavalier requires equipment to have a semblance of evasion for all intents and purposes.

_erbs_

11-27-2008, 11:52 PM

For me, with regards to Angel vs Kinsbaile Cavalier, for me have completly different roles or deck composition.

Kinsbaile Cavalier
1. For me would fit a deck which runs really on lots of winnie creatures / threats , creatures with first strike abilities would really shine, maybe crusade would fit in nicely ?

Exalted Angel
1. Can provide an early win via morph since you use lands that produces 2 colorless mana
2. The deck build relies heavly on equips with that a single creature would be a bomb
3. Just maybe.., Empyral Armor could work ?

Mordel

12-03-2008, 03:16 AM

Erbs: do you mean empyrial plate?

_erbs_

12-05-2008, 01:05 AM

Erbs: do you mean empyrial plate?

yes empyrial plate not the enchantment

Clark Kant

12-07-2008, 03:37 AM

Jak

12-07-2008, 04:51 AM

So Zilla, now that you're back, any chance that you will finally start the new Angel Stompy thread with a revised list.

These days, not foregoing weak weenies like Isamaru and Savannah Lions to instead support Chalice and Trinisphere seems like a mistake.

Zilla posting once doesn't really mean he is back lol. Maybe he'll reply but I doubt he will make the new thread (as promised years ago!).

Moonlight

03-31-2009, 06:22 PM

My first post on this forum, and probably not the last...

Ive always loved Angel stompy, thats why I still want to play it.
Testing the following list, and hope any of you could help me out making it kick-ass..

3 Isamaru, hound of konda
4 Mother of runes
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Serra avenger
3 Jotun grunt
4 Exalted angel

2 Umezawa's jitte
2 Sword of fire and ice
2 Sylvan library

4 Swords to plowshares
3 Oblivion ring
3 Cataclysm

3 Chrome mox
4 Ancient tomb
4 Windswept heath
3 Savannah
2 Flagstones of trokair
1 Forest
7 Plains

feel free to make suggestions.. but tell me why you should change / add / throw away^^

any help is appriciated ;)

EternalDragon09

08-01-2009, 03:02 AM

ok so i figured after reading some awfully horriffic lists of this deck i would post my TESTED!! Angel stompy like it is supposed to be. however i do give honest constructive critisism i also enjoy recieving it too so feel free just dont be dumb...
Without futher delay here it is.

Creatures:
4 exalted angel
3 isamaru, hound of konda
4 mother of runes
2 savannah lions
2 serra avenger
4 silver knight
4 soltari priest

Spells:
3 cataclysm
2 shining shoal
4 swords to plowshares

Artifacts:
3 chrome mox
2 mask of memory
2 sword of fire and ice
2 jitte

Land:
4 ancient tomb
2 flagstones of trokair
13 plains

Board:
3 armageddon
3 honorable passage
4 orims chant
3 seal of cleansing
2 pithing needle

Now for the explanations of the choices and lodgic reasoning.

Angry men, with a mother

Angel- speaks for itself, without it this would be ww witch=gay.
hound- one drop beater that helps the mana curve of the deck and gets tools easliy.
mom- another speaks for itself its a staple.
lions- last minute decision really just another hound for the curve of even out and make it flow better.
avenger- just all around awesome but not more than two. she is a card u dont want in opening hand but to draw into the turn before u can play her and if u dont see her its not a big deal not a make or breaker.
silver knight- i wanted to keep the big pro red giving me adv. against gobs, red thresh, burn, dragon stompy.
priest- staple as well for obvious reasons and btw he has pro red.

Spells

cataclysm- this is where it becomes fun. it really is a 3 in one. its a bomb if it resloves obv. or if not needed its white give it to mox. and lastly and most fun of all its a 4cc pitcher to the super super tek card shining shoal lol
shining shoal-ok so here is my favorite card in the whole deck. its amazing seriously take it from me one of the top ten in legacy, OH. no jokes its bomb. anyways. i replaced paralax wave with cataclysm because the wave good just not as devastating as clysm. it takes out land pesky artifacts i cant deal with or anything and basically makes the game all in my favor. but the shoal is another wave in a way or a better harms way from m10. it gains tempo for not costing anything so i can tap out or with the mana excellerants i can make it huge and here is the best part it can count as a burn spell i wish i could run more than two but the 2 for one thing kinda hurts but trust me 2 is just right. simply amazing card in this deck it gives me the tempo gain i need to win sometimes when i draw it. Tarmogoyf attacks...shining shoal in response...removing angel...targeting you..WTF seriously? haha
swords to plowshares-duh. your playing white.

Artifacts

mox-mana excellerant staple.
mask-draw spell helps me gain back my tempo
sword of F/I-one of the best equiptments ever. staying with the pro red theme. also draw mechaninc
moonsword-THE BEST EQUIP EVER!!!!!!!!duh

Lands

tomb- acellerant life is irrelevant with moonsword
flagstones- cataclysm bonus.. what about wasteland??
plains- make it all possible:smile:

Board

Armageddon- pretty much against control.
honorable passage- super tek against progenitus lol. and keeps to pro red
chant- my only real hate against combo other than clysm haha take that empty the warrens.
seal- artifacts or enchantress, CB/top anything really. i just prefer this because it is stationary rather than an instant or whatever.
needle- CB/top, or anything just there really.

Aggro_zombies

08-01-2009, 04:12 AM

Isn't Baneslayer Angel just better than Exalted Angel now? The former has protection from Tombstalker, better power, and first strike (potentially allowing it to block and kill Tarmogoyfs). That it costs less mana than an unmorphed Exalted Angel is just gravy.

Also, why no Elspeth? It may be more expensive and potentially a little on the slow side, but being able to buff your guys or spit out creatures seems strong.

With only four Chants, you're going to get absolutely raped by combo.

Other than that, it seems decent. It's hard to read your post, though; you may wish to sound less like an excited twelve-year-old and edit it for grammar and spelling. Speaking of which, whatever happened to P_R telling people to use the Shift key? I started using correct capitalization on the internet because of this site.

beastman

08-01-2009, 04:32 AM

Savage necro.
I really think baneslayer should be in over exalted. I also think the green splash can make this deck playable with goyf.

OneBigSquirrelGod

08-01-2009, 03:17 PM

Im trying to creat a Build of Angel Stompy to start playing the deck again. The old one had a bunch of 1 and 2 casters,, Exalted Angel, and Waves, but Im trying to create a similar list to the Faerie/Dragon/Elephant/Demon Stompy lists, to abuse CotV and possibly Trinisphere. Ive been brainstorming and This is what I have so far...

3 Baneslayer Angel
4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Mindsensor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Moat
2 Parralax Wave

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

9 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

The Curve in the deck is high,maybe a little too high, but I think the deck has a good matchup against all Stompy Decks, and Even Some of the tier one decks, Like threshold, and Dreadstill, even possibly Merfolk. Does anyone have any advice (positive advice)

The Wes

08-01-2009, 04:56 PM

I love you for adding shining shoal!

EternalDragon09

08-02-2009, 12:27 PM

It's hard to read your post, though; you may wish to sound less like an excited twelve-year-old and edit it for grammar and spelling. Speaking of which, whatever happened to P_R telling people to use the Shift key? I started using correct capitalization on the internet because of this site.

Alright Faggro Zombies that knows everything about this deck, my meta game, and is an outstand english scholar. Seriously im 18 and it was 2 o'clock in the morning the last thing i was worried about was my spelling and grammar. I was trying to get the list and ideas down before i crashed which was hard enough so cut me a break on that one.

Second i see your points with baneslayer angel however all of you are forgetting something, while you are trying to build up enough mana for your baneslayer my exalted already smacked you in the nutz about twice, gave me about 16 life swing and with mom on the board your almighty baneslayer cant even hope to touch it. And my exalted goes right past tombstoner and dragon stompy anyways along with my arsenal of knights.

And lastly i only run four orim's chants in the board becasuse only two people play combo in my meta so why waste the spots when they r dead against everything else except aggro maybe rarely sometimes.

f|i[p]

08-02-2009, 05:46 PM

Creature and equipment ratio is really off... With only 11 creatures.. and 7 equipment, that's going to hurt you... Even back on the old angel stompy lists which had 6 equipments, and 18-20 creatures it was a problem at times.. So maybe you can fix your creature, equipment ratio...

More creatures, less equipment.

_erbs_

08-03-2009, 12:13 AM

Baneslayer vs Exalted Angel

Baneslayer
1. Has bigger muscles and survivability 5/5 1st strike and pro dragon / demon (tombstalker)

Exalted Angel
1. Comes out faster via morph but has a chance to get killed easily during morph phase.

For me they have different roles. Baneslayer is built for a late game beater while exalted is best as an early beater.

Shinning Shoal is a nice card especially against burn or other combat tricks you want to pull off but the question is does it really deserve a main board spot...

As for the recent deck...

3 Baneslayer Angel
4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Mindsensor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Moat
2 Parralax Wave

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

9 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

May i suggest trying this instead.. if your going the stompy route (DS, Sea, etc.)

I've personally tested this version and its like playing like stax your 1st 7 cards will dictate how your entire game is going to pan out.. it has its shinning momemnts and awesome at times but whats hard about it is when your faced against flyers (DnT, sea stompy, faeries, etc) your defense will greatly suffer if you can't bring down an early chalice or trini.

This deck requires alot of aggressive mulligans to run to its potential. Moat costs a ton (monitary) also so unless you have moat already you would think twice before purchasing it since it doesn't have alot of decks that can be used and investing in it could get you several duals and fetch which has more versatility.

LANDS [27]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Flagstones of Trokair
14 Plains
4 Mox Diamond

UTILITIES [16]
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Moat
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Armageddon

CREATURES [15]
4 Aven Mindsensor
4 Exalted Angel
4 Windborn Muse
3 Baneslayer Angel

EternalDragon09

08-03-2009, 01:59 PM

Of course the shoal deserves a mainboard spot. It is so versitile and gains rediculous tempo for you.

As for the baneslayer i dont like her at all, she cant still be swords and snuff outed or any other popular kill mech. The pro tombstalker and dragon stompy is not relevant enough you need to come up with better points if you want to convince me she is above standard play. Second exalted is so much better because if you drop mom turn one then her turn two you dont have to do anything except flip her they will be two scared/ and or waste too many spells trying to kill one or both of them leaving you with all you other creatures and free rain.

idraleo

08-03-2009, 03:33 PM

I'm trying a more aggroish/token oriented build, Spectral Procession seems good since it gives 3 Flying guys for us, and the cmc of W/2 allows to cast it ever on the 3rd/2nd turn. The bad thing of that deck is that it doesn't have a nice 3cmc drop with a nice body, or ability that really impact the game. Btw, this decklist is less tested but it could give some nice advice ^_^

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
14 [M10] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
4 [10E] Windborn Muse

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [M10] Ajani Goldmane

Kuma

08-03-2009, 05:03 PM

There aren't enough good creatures that cost 2W to make this anything like Dragon/Faerie/Elephant/Demon Stompy.

You're better off coming up with a different idea or playing Armageddon Stax.

EternalDragon09

08-03-2009, 06:30 PM

I agree you cannot convert angel stompy which is more similar to ww then an actually stompy archtype. You are trying to take the deck in two many different directions on one hand i see where it is similar to stax on the other more similar to cedric phillips almighty STANDARD kithkin aggro.

I will post my newest list of AS. A few changes that have occured in the matter of 48 hours of extensive testing and outsider advice from some of magics most creative and ingenious minds, so here it is.

DUDES: 22
4 exalted angel
4 mom
4 priest
4 sliver knight
3 hound of konda
1 savannah lions
2 serra avenger

SPELLS: 7
2 shining shoal
4 STP
1 tithe

ENCHANTMENTS/ ARTIFACTS: 13
3 parallax wave
3 chrome mox
2 jitte
2 mask of memory
3 SOFI

LANDS: 18
4 Ancient tomb
1 City of Traitors
13 Plains

BOARD: 15
3 geddon
3 aura of silence
4 orims chant
3 honorable passage
1 shining shoal
1 parallax wave

I didnt change much just a few things first off cut one land, for a single tithe for diversity and its white so equips to mox, i kept finding getting one single more land than needed. Second, i added one city of traitors because wizards only allows me to play 4 tomb i wanted to play 5 since i added an equp. finally i replaced cataclysm with p. wave for the reason i want as many dudes of mine on the board as possible, cataclysm although devestating did not have great synergy with that. However wave is just as a defensive card as offensive. It can not only remove pesky creatures of my opponents but can get a few of my key guys out of harms way.

For example, im testing against landstill the other day, not a favorable match correct well im working on it. I have a mom morphed down exalted angel and jitte on board, a single tomb, mox(imprinted), and plains i untap my opponent is taps out plays deed to stabilize. i play parallax wave he laughs i beat, say go. He draws, plays factory says go. now wave only has 4 counters i lost a turn with it OH well. i draw tap plains and mox attempt to equip morphed down angel and beat, my reason for this is to force the deed he does not want an active jitte or angel i cannot morph up the angel so he must blow it now. he Swords in response i mom angel naming white, in response he blows deed trying to kill everything for 4 i respond and activate wave on my mom and angel. deed resolves. blows up wave,mox and jitte. angel comes back in along with mom unmorphed and both untapped. I play my second equip in my hand and pass the turn. the next turn i equip the angel and with mom goes the whole way.
The point was that wave is so versitle its rediculous seriously.

_erbs_

08-04-2009, 12:44 AM

Running serra avenger with no vial is hard especially when you draw them early on. Eventhough your list runs 2 at times it will happen and running 3 isamaru for me is not good aswell. The 2 thoughness doesn't seem to matter for me. I'll rather put out more threats on the board.

I dislike using chrome mox aswell as it throws away your resources. I'll rather boost my lands so i could use mox diamond

nightmaster

08-04-2009, 02:51 AM

Isamaru and Lions should become Figure of Destiny as he is not a dead draw late.

I think you need more than 13 white mana sources(That can't be countered/easily discarded/easily destroyed thus putting you in a bad position) with so many double white casting costs.

-1 City
-1 Tithe
+2 Plains

It might also be a good idea to consider dropping a mox for a plains as well.

Silver Knight can become Samurai of the Pale Curtain unless you face a ton of goblins. And get Oblivion Ring in there, it is so good since it takes out almost anything. I also suggest Kitchen Finks as he can survival mass removal, at least for a little while.

Also, what's your meta since it would be easier to suggest cards if we knew what you were facing against.

surly

08-04-2009, 04:49 AM

Razor Golem can also be a really good cmc3/4 creature in case you can support him (=running enough plains)

EternalDragon09

08-04-2009, 09:02 AM

@ nightmastet i see your points however the o ring seems a little klunky for me, i run 4 stp and 3 wave i like that enough and what does samuri help with not threshold really so what else is she good with??

my biggest concerns are the mass threshold lists and the rest is kinda a toss up in the air we have one or two combos, a few tier 2 aggro decks occasionally gobs, but other than that its mostly thresh or landstill, dreadstill, some blue something any suggestions on that one?

nightmaster

08-04-2009, 12:52 PM

Ok so mostly Thresh and Landstill. Well Angel Stompy can lose very easily to Landstill so that will be a problem. First, I think you need a 4th wave to at least try and avoid mass removal. 4 Finks is a must now since they survive it once. Not that long ago I considered playing Reveillark for two reasons:
1. He was another creature you could power out with Ancient Tomb.
2. Against mass removal, he replaces himself with two smaller creatures that can of course be equipped.

Samurai is good against Ichorid and against Thresh since he trades with Mongeese, however, since he is not synergistic with Reveillark or Finks and since Landstill is a much harder matchup you I wouldn't suggest playing him then. Plus Finks trades with geese also. If you still worry about Thresh, Jotun Grunt.

As for Shining Shoal, I really don't know. The only cards worth pitching are wave and angel and I can see myself wanting them. Plus, Shoal can be serious card disadvantage.

Oblivion Ring I found was a great addition if you had some extra space or if control was not as prevalent and 4 Wave/Cataclysm was not needed.

Finally, how much are you liking Mask? I dropped Mask is order to fit more stuff in.

@surly: Razor Golem is a good card yes but two things.
1. In his deck with so many mox and tomb type cards he will still often cost 4 or even 5 mana when he is really good when he cost 3 or less.
2. He dies to artifact removal also which I find a problem with people using things like Krosan Grip to stop Counterbalance.
In all, I find Finks a better 3cc.

f|i[p]

08-04-2009, 01:12 PM

Right now, if there is going to be a revival of angel stompy, I think it requires at the least vials, or chalices..

goyf almost killed angel stompy before, now they have counter balance as well, which A LOT of people play...and I really do think that counter balance is a bigger problem than goyf . So if you are planning to play 1cc and 2cc spells like the traditional angel stompy, you are going to have a hard time dealing with cb, a resolved cb would mean GG.

If goyf was a deck restriction before, cb is a bigger deck restriction for angel stompy.

I think having chalices and maybe trinispheres is a good way to go. THe problem is there aren't many good 3cc creatures that white has to offer.

Esper3k

08-04-2009, 02:24 PM

It makes me happy to see the resurrection of this thread!

I've experimented with an Angel Stompy/Death & Taxes Hybrid before with Ancient Tombs and Exalted Angel. I'm curious to see how Baneslayer Angel plays out as well.

Some thoughts I had:

I love playing Cataclysm in this deck - it's really freaking hard to stop an Exalted + Equipment after a Cataclysm.

If you're using Cataclysm, I think O-Ring is definitely a must-have.

I am very interested in the Chalice/Trinisphere version with Elspeth and it sounds like it'd be a lot of fun to play.

tivadar

08-04-2009, 02:48 PM

I was the biggest proponet of AS in the past, but I really just don't see what it wins to anymore. Exalted costs 7 mana (albeit over 2 turns) for a 4/5 flyer lifegain, Goyf costs 2 mana for a 4/5. Exalted just isn't an efficient beater anymore.

If you do want to run this deck, drop the cataclysm idea. It's way too slow and feeds goyf/tombstalker. Flip is right, if you want to run this deck now, it' requires some form of disruption. I'd argue for Chalice, though Trinisphere or Ethersworn may also work. Tell me this, what cards does angel stompy offer now that are superior to cards in other colors? Here's what my list would be potentially:

Exalted Angel: Really not so great anymore, as tombstalker is cheaper and better, as is goyf much of the time, not to mention, exalted has a tendency to get burned early.
Parallax Wave: An interesting choice and decent, especially with cards such as finks. Not gamebreaking though.
STP: Definitely a good card, but sorta hurts the chalice/trini plan
Moat: If you can run it, hands down a reason to play this deck. Being able to stop goblins + merfolk + goyf is awesome.

But that's all I can really think of. Weight that against what you get from merfolk, namely Daze, Standstill, and Force of Will, and I think this deck just falls a bit short.

Esper3k

08-04-2009, 03:59 PM

With the Chalice/Trinisphere version, I think Baneslayer is something to be tested.

The two biggest threats to Baneslayer are StP and Snuff Out, which Chalice at least easily solves one of those problems in this deck.

tivadar

08-04-2009, 04:26 PM

Chalice also snuffs out your own STPs. O'Ring is O'k, but still not so stellar.

With chalice you lose Mother, Isamaru, Figure of Destiny, and probably your knights as well... With chalice, this becomes a rather different deck.

EternalDragon09

08-04-2009, 07:11 PM

Alright so here is what i have been working on the past few days Nightmaster.

4 exalted angel- cant loose her she gives me insane life swings and comes out so earley she gets a target painted on her head.
3 dog- one of the best one drops in white
3 jotun grunt- beats thresh kills goyf and mongoose, helps against loam and dredge. Meta choice really.
4 mom- obviously
1 savannah lions- magic makes me feel like i have to play at least one.
4 silver knight- good. pro red.
4 soltari priest- evasive, great with equipments. pro red.

1 path to exile- 5 targeted removal spells is good.
2 tithe- thins the deck, versitile with chrome mox. helps post board abolish.
4 Stp- best targeted removal spell ever printed.

3 parallax wave- phenominal. versitial a must have.

3 chrome mox- mana excellerant.
2 mask of memory- draw engine.
2 sword of fire and ice- draw engine, pro red, blue, and shock.
2 jitte- best equipment ever printed.

4 ancient tomb- mana.
14 plains- more manas.

Board

1 jotun grunt
3 abolish
3 armageddon
3 honorable passage
4 orims chant
1 parallax wave

@ nightmaster, i love mask especially with angels and mom and priest its like christmas in july haha. but seriously really solid helps you rebuild your hand if you dumped it or are reseting for mid-late game.

nightmaster

08-04-2009, 11:01 PM

-1 Path
+1 Parallax Wave

If you are not going to run Finks or Reveillark then you really need 4 Wave for mass removal. Plus one Path is a little random.

I still say Isamaru and Lions should be Figure of Destiny. I guess Tithe works because of Mox. Otherwise, looks good.

EternalDragon09

08-05-2009, 02:28 PM

I will try the 4th wave i was testing last night, i realized mba bones us. All there pro guys can fucking die in a fire. how do you think the wave will increase my threshold match. i supplemented grunts in too, they help uber much against thresh its rediculous. Kills both there guys he is soo good.

acutally i changed the single path to 2/3 split with stp. i kept getting fucked by extripate why not people do it with armageddon and ravages and shit like that so why cant i and i board the last wave you think its main worthy 4?? i stress the path so much because how many people play basics now adays you see more nonbasics then basics thats the key, thats why wasteland is so good duh.

EternalDragon09

08-05-2009, 02:43 PM

Also on another note abolish is insane!! cc of 3 or alt. cc of discard plains so much better than d. chant or seal or aura of silence. cant be needled. cant be hit so easily with top/cb. and cant be snared. so take that threshold.

EternalDragon09

08-09-2009, 09:33 PM

Shimi

08-10-2009, 04:05 PM

ok so apparently this forum went dead again.... i am still trying to revive it. i decided on a pretty much final list with some pretty extensive testing these past few weeks its pretty solid. i dont like the path to exlie however stp is so much better, i can deal with the life adv especially with angel and jitte but cant afford to give anything else my insane mana adv. even tho its only a basic.

I agree with you, Stp is ALOT better than path.Also one friend ask me for an angel stomp decklist (he loves playing whiteweenie and that is the perfect deck for him) and i was thinking and i'm building it what do you think chrome mox is essencial or the deck can still be decent without it?

f|i[p]

08-10-2009, 04:37 PM

We have stated angel stompy's problems..

if you play 2cc creatures with p/t 2/1 or 2/2 and actually requires equipment for people to actually bother removing them Id say their quite weak... In a metagame full of red they might matter.. But generally silver knights cannot even deal with mishras factory, so goes isamaru's and lions. I used to have people just counter equipments in this deck, and I pretty much had a bunch of 2/2's and 2/1s . It forces you to over commit just to get damage through. Then it ends up being a race. What does a silver knight/isamaru/ do in front of a goyf. A priest cannot race a goyf without equipment. Youd have to play down at least 2 priests to race a goyf. Jotun grunts only last for a few turns. And you can't even play 1 after the other.

We can go to other paths,like splash green to actually get our own goyfs, and beefier creatures.

GOing mono white is not the way to go anymore, unless you play the traditional WW which just races opponents and usually falls short at it.

Esper3k

08-10-2009, 06:01 PM

For me, I think the way to go is the Chalice/Trinisphere method. That also really lets you take advantage of the Stompy manabase - I'll start messing around with it after GenCon.

Angel Stompy could also steal the Mangara + Karakas synergy as well. Mangara does cost 3, so you wouldn't be hurt by your own Chalices and Trinispheres.

EternalDragon09

08-10-2009, 11:17 PM

@Smili: Obviously you need the mox prolly not 3 but at least two.@Flip: As far as the 2/1 or 2/2 guys go i make them a threat thats the point of ww duh!!! no no no no splashing. mono white is the best way to go and i would love to see someone play me and say my 2/2 silver knight is anything less than spectacular. however he is problally is the only card in the deck that could fluctuate in number or possibly be replaced entirely according to your meta-ggame or possibly world meta depending, but for the time being i think he is staple because he not only cant be bolted, fired in tempo thresh but aggro loams removal cant touch him nor can any random aggro that runs red and dont let me forget his is the all time best goblin killer. And as far as soltari goes your dumb if your trying to cut a pro red unblockable guy, he is part of the heart of ww and AS forsure. And my puppy dog aka lackys kriptonite is probally one of the best cards ever to be printed for one white mana with 0 draw backs, and he helps curve out the deck so when you have real concerns or the meta-game randomly has 0 aggro or 0 red and no goblins then your right and your just one of the people that spends 30-40 dollars on one goyf and i laugh when my 2 dollar parallax wave rfgs him while i beat you in the head with my how you said WEAK white weenies. not trying to be a dick just honest and realisitc.

EternalDragon09

08-10-2009, 11:44 PM

My most current list is.

Guys:
3 isamaru
1 savannah lions
4 exalted angel
4 silver knight
4 soltari priest
4 mom
3 jotun grunt

Spells:
4 stp
4 parallax wave
2 tithe
2 jitte
2 sofi
2 mask of memory

Lands:
3 chrome mox
4 ancient tomb
14 plains

Board:
3 abolish
2 engineered explosives
1 jotun grunt
3 honorable passage
4 orims chant
2 armageddon

Extremly solid. debating one change however either cut one silver kight or the cat for one more jitte just because its so damn good. idk more testing it never hurts.

The Wes

08-11-2009, 12:04 AM

With 8 of your guys being pro red, would sols be a good addition, especially with the creature recursion it brings?

EternalDragon09

08-11-2009, 02:09 PM

@wes: you bring up a good point however sofi gives me way more card adv. and ultimatly thats what i want, and its more proactive. And mom gives me pro anything so the color is not worth the cardadv. loss.

Arsenal

08-11-2009, 02:25 PM

Is turn 2 Exalted Angel better than turn 3 Baneslayer Angel? It seems that almost any deck contemplating running Exalted Angel would be better off running Baneslayer.

Exalted Angel, while a turn faster assuming you (a.) hit your mana and (b.) Morph, doesn't do much in combat versus other early fatties (Goyf & Stalker come down pretty quick).

Baneslayer, although a turn slower, is a house in combat. She laughs at Stalker and may be able to take on a 4/5 Goyf whereas Exalted Angel needs to hope that the opposing Goyf is a 3/4 (not likely).

Esper3k

08-11-2009, 07:27 PM

Baneslayer looks really good on paper, I'll admit.

Another bonus to her is that her Prot Dragons lets her fight Pit-Dragons all day!

EternalDragon09

08-11-2009, 09:57 PM

wait wait wait what color is pit dragon.......... any guesses? oh red thats right so the pro dragons dont matter and tombstalker is still a color so mom protects any guy from him and baneslayer is too clunky with the mana curve being 5 is wierd.

Esper3k

08-11-2009, 10:11 PM

Why would him being red matter? All they have to do is pay R and hop him over the vast majority of the creatures in your deck.

Secondly, just because you're running Mother of Runes doesn't mean you'll always be able to get one out and keep it active. What happens when it gets spot removed?

Again, with Tombstalker, the only creature you have in your version that can even block him is the Exalted Angel...

EternalDragon09

08-12-2009, 02:39 AM

once mom is in play she is nearly imposible to remove, especially with wave.
and angel is just superior.

Digital Devil

08-12-2009, 05:19 AM

Hi to everyone. It is my first post concerning deck strategies, and I wanted to share my thoughts about this deck. I've been playing it for years, and the thing I noticed is basically this deck > battle phase. Angel Stompy has been forgotten because of its bad combo (at least g1) and its hard control matchup. As Zilla said a few posts ago, this is basically a metagame deck. If your environment is filled with Zoo/Goblin/Slight, just run this deck and expect to Top8 a regular amount of time. Since combo is a little part of the meta-pie (at least it is, here in Italy), it is acceptable to lose against combo in g1. Post side, there are utilities (mainly Chalice of the Void and Glowrider/Thorn of Amethyst) which can help to fight the desperate combo matchup. Needless to say, this deck destroys aggro and packs a heavy duty punch against aggro/control. Control is a coin toss, since it depends on the initial hands of both players, but if we get on the long run, we are inevitably losing. This just to set a basement for my argumentations (just let me know if I'm telling something weird, basically I'm here to improve my deckist). As for the list, I'm gonna post it down there with my thoughts. I wrote a primer about the deck on Tipo1.it, but since "Angel Stompers" are really hard to find on that site, I hope you can concentrate on my statements rather than my post count and help me finding a good balance for the list.

MANA BASE --- LANDS (16)

8x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
2x Flagstones of Trokair

I know 16 lands may sound a bit low, but I found it to be the perfect number. Since Wizards allows me to play only 4x Tombs, I packed in 2 additional Cities (just like Evan Tomeny). Flagstones of Trokair comboes well with Cataclysm, which I run maindeck as a 3-of.

Just to make sure you can understand how my version works, here is my fight-plan

OTHER SPELLS --- UTILITIES AND GROUND CONTROL (23)

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Chrome Mox
3x Cataclysm
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Tithe
2x Path to Exile
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Mask of Memory
1x Steelshaper's Gift

Besides Stp's which are auto-include, I'm going to explain the quantities and why I choose certain cards. I can't imagine this deck without running Chrome Mox. It is just too good to not fit it in the deck. It is synergystic with Cataclysm and allows broken T1 plays (Cotv/Angel etc.)
Plus, it has a nice effect with Tithe, which basically is Plains 9-10. Tithe also comboes with 'Clysm, and helps thinning the deck as well as smoothing the land count. Cataclysm is broken. It is certainly bad in many situations (since aggro/control decks tend to play creatures which are single-handedly bigger than ours and run well with a low curve), but the drawback is certainly balanced by its strenght. It allows the deck to steal some games against control, as well as crushing aggro decks with quite ease. It is a Shatterstorm/Wrath of God/Tranquillity/Armageddon all in one card, except it is worse than its single counterparts. The awesome thing is it kills all Planeswalkers, making it a good weapon against both Landstill's Elspeth and manabase. I decided to run 3 because I wanted to fit in a 3rd Oblivion Ring, 'cause I think it's a good answer both to Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf, which are the main reasons of this deck deck-a-dence. Path to Exile is bad post Cataclysm, but before casting it it is pure gold: the opponents has less % of finding a land after the mass-destruction effect. Plus, it is a good spot removal: I don't see reasons to not play it. Our creatures tend to be less efficient than Tarmo/Stalker/Nought. Just remove 'em and continue the beatdown. I'd rather give my opponent a land if I can kill that 5/6 guy: I can't afford to be outraced. As for the equipment, Zilla's 2/2/2 split is a pretty strong balance. Since I hate drawing double masks, as it doesn't help to stand against bigger creatures, I decided to fit in a mono-Gift to fetch for those Jittes if needed. Plus, it is cc1, which makes it a good starter. That's because I completely scrambled the creature base. Only three 1-drops:

RRF --- THE CREATURES (21)

4x Exalted Angel
4x Silver Knight
4x Aven Mindcensor
3x Mother of Runes
3x Soltari Priest
3x Serra Avenger

Exalted Angel is the deck's namesake. It just won me too many games. Playing less than four is a crime. Silver Knight has the nice ability to say "I'm game" against a good part of the field. Dragon Stompy has a hard time removing it, as well as goblin, zoo, and basically red-based strategies. Zoo and Goblins have Stp/Path, but if they spend one on Knight they have one less for Exalted Angel. Aven Mindcensor is THE creature. It costs 3, making it hard to Cbalance. It has flash, so it screws up your opponent's math, and is a nice trick if played in response to Standstill. It has the innate ability to semi-stifle fetchlands, as well as shutting down Survival decks. It has sinergy with Cataclysm, making harder for your opponent to recover, and can cover Path's drawback. Plus, it can screw up your opponent's plans against combo (Infernal/Mystical Tutor anyone?). Oh, I forgot it is evasive!!! Mother of Runes is also an auto-include. The only thing I hate about her is that late game it is a bad topdeck, and if we're losing the race we're forced to take even more damage to make her working. Plus, it doesn't do much for the aggro part. Soltari Priest is pretty strong, but 4x is too much: it doesn't block. Serra Avenger is the midgame bomb. I play 3 mainly because of Chrome Mox. She has collected many heads in various tournaments just by carrying a Sword.

The plan is basically the same as Zilla's Razor Golem version - never overcommit, just play a creature, then remove to death your opponent's menaces or equip your dude, play Cataclysm if you are in trouble or if you want to seal the deal.

My sideboard is generally dedicated to the combo matchup.

MY SIDEBOARD

4x Chalice of The Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sword of Light and Shadow
---1x meta slot---

Chalice is a must. No more to say about that. I play Thorn of Amethyst instead of Glowrider because it is faster. It doesn't have an auto-included clock, but against combo I usually side out spot removals anyway, so I beat normally with my creatures. It is easier to cast on turn one, which can delay your opponent a bit more, usually giving the time to take him low on life. Needle and Relic are 2-of. Why? Because once I read here on this forum a convincent theory about those cards. They aren't vital (although you can say Needle>Deed/Counter/Top>AS): if they appear in your hand or if you draw 'em, it's fine, otherwise it isn't too much of a loss. Against 3sh I usually side Chalice, so I don't let in Relics. Only Needle if necessary, but even then, I don't want to shut down my deck by myself. SoLaS is there against many Rock style decks, Landstill and Stax. Just exchange with SoFaI if needed. 1 meta slot is generally filled with an additional Needle if I play in a Rockish/Cbalance meta. If I expect to face Aggro Loam or Ichorid, then it becomes the 3rd Relic. If the meta is combo-heavy, just pack a singleton Glowrider. Now this slot is filled with a mono Gaea's Blessing, since in my meta there is a Spring Tide deck, an Aluren w/Brain Freeze and two Imperial Painter (both mono :r: and the u/r version).

My version is less explosive than the Lions/Isamaru version, but I found it to be more stable. I have to admit there are anti-synergies (Mother of Runes forces to overcommit, clashing with Cataclysm; also Path gives the chance for your opponent to recover, but I never regret that, since I can just outrace them), but that's why I'm here. I wanted to fit in some Kitchen Finks. Just let me know if you like the list or if you can help me improving it.

P.S. As for Baneslayer Angel, I found it to be inferior to Exalted. It is bigger, but it is slower. Tarmo? Stalker? Dreadnought? Personally I run so many removals I never had any problem with them. The real trouble is Counterbalance.

P.P.S. Sorry for my incoherent grammar, english is not my native language =)

Esper3k

08-12-2009, 08:54 AM

once mom is in play she is nearly imposible to remove, especially with wave.
and angel is just superior.

Except if they happen to have any sort of removal spell at all for her before you can get her online. If you drop her early at all, you're not going to have Parallax Wave out either to protect her.

I disagree that Exalted is purely superior to Baneslayer angel. I think Baneslayer deserves testing and it hasn't been shown that Exalted is better yet.

Arsenal

08-12-2009, 10:16 AM

I don't understand how people are automatically writing off Baneslayer so easily.

Is she a turn slower? Sure, but what does that really mean? Assuming you drop Exalted Angel turn 1, then Morph on turn 2, you've effectively spent 7 mana and you've committed all your resources and turns thus far to a single threat. And this scenario requires you to have Chrome Mox + City/Tomb + Exalted Angel in your opening 7. This also opens you up to any number of removal spells (Bolt when Exalted is 2/2, StP whenever, Diabolic Edict if you were on the draw, etc).

Conversely, why not drop a 1cc spell, a 2cc spell, then Baneslayer on turn 3? In this scenario, you most likely have board position, a varied assortment of threats, and you're not as reliant on getting Chrome Mox + Tomb/City in your opening 7 in order to go to town.

Also, when it comes to combat, Baneslayer > Exalted by a very wide margin. 4 power doesn't mean as much as it used to thanks to 4/5 & 5/6 Goyfs and 5/5 Tombstalkers, both which can come down almost as early as your Exalted Angel.

I definitely think Baneslayer warrants more testing.

Media314r8

08-12-2009, 10:18 AM

I disagree that Exalted is purely superior to Baneslayer angel. I think Baneslayer deserves testing and it hasn't been shown that Exalted is better yet.

Agreed. I think dropping something like a 3sphere, windborn muse, or a moat turn two/three into a turn three/four baneslayer is much more impressive than dropping a 2/2 morph into an exalted. Don't get me wrong - exalted angel is the reason why the deck exists, but I don't think a creature as powerful as baneslayer can be so easily discarded in this deck. Perhaps a more controling direction:

'you don't attack.dec'

4 city
14 plains
1 flagstones
1 kor haven
4 chrome mox

4 CotV
4 trinisphere
4 ghostly prison
4 Moat (forget that this part of the deck costs $200-300 for a moment and MWS test it)

4 Mother
4 Mindcensor
4 windborn muse
3 guardian seraph (good against storm, tribal, burn, and aggro)
3 exalted
2 baneslayer

Arsenal

08-12-2009, 01:58 PM

In the 1cc beater slot, has Figure of Destiny been tested? It seems better than Savannah Lions/Isamaru. Thoughts?

Aggro_zombies

08-12-2009, 03:29 PM

3 guardian seraph (good against storm,
Um...what?

Tendrils of Agony doesn't do damage, and last time I checked Brain Freeze doesn't affect your life total at all. EtW is rarely played anymore and Grapeshot is Grapeshit.

f|i[p]

08-12-2009, 06:38 PM

@Media314r8's list

I would probably run something like your list, but I wouldn't put moats in( I think they are overkill since you already have prisons as well as muse in there).. Instead I would put armageddon x3-4 just to be able to seal the deal.

Guardian seraph is interesting in someway but I don't think it prevents life loss from tendrills..

I also wouldn't run 4 mother of runes, since you already have chalices in there. I actually do run 3 mothers, just to make sure I have turn 1 drops aside from just dropping a land and passing the turn.

Equipment will help this deck jitte sofi, Elspeth would work here as well(even ajani goldmane would)...Considering most of the creatures have power 2-3..

Media314r8

08-12-2009, 06:51 PM

Um...what?

Tendrils of Agony doesn't do damage, and last time I checked Brain Freeze doesn't affect your life total at all. EtW is rarely played anymore and Grapeshot is Grapeshit.

I actually just had this conversation with my friend. I was thoroughly dreamcrushed. My bust.

Media314r8

08-12-2009, 07:00 PM

;370031'] @Media314r8's list

I would probably run something like your list, but I wouldn't put moats in( I think they are overkill since you already have prisons as well as muse in there).. Instead I would put armageddon x3-4 just to be able to seal the deal.

I also wouldn't run 4 mother of runes, since you already have chalices in there. I actually do run 3 mothers, just to make sure I have turn 1 drops aside from just dropping a land and passing the turn.

Equipment will help this deck jitte sofi, Elspeth would work here as well(even ajani goldmane would)...Considering most of the creatures have power 2-3..

Mother is to hold the ground early game and to blank removal, (lest it's on her) also blocks a turn one lackey. I think she is better than swords here, as you can at least set her proactivly, and then drop chalice. The deck can chalice at 2 without hampering its funtionality, which is of note.

I think moat is too good not to play, as they really need to have an answer to it or lose. I would cut prison effects before I cut moat, as any flying creature in your deck will win you the game thereafter. (which is why I think equips are unnecessary here save for possibly killing things like SGC)

I ran 'geddon here for a little while, but decided that the deck was turning into white stacks, which is not a direction I want it to go in. I tried it in the side, but suppression field is really gas against control decks right now (as well as not affecting you so long as you remember to board out your mom's goblin raiders against control), as it really kills EE/ruins recursion, and many landstill decks are using plainswalkers as win conditions in addition to fetches, top, ect.

The sideboard I'm working with is currently:
3 aura of silence
3 sphere of law
3 suppression field
4 relic of progenitus
2 umezawa's jitte (Hippocracy much? I think the two slots just solidify the zoo/goblins MU... open to suggestions)

Also open for suggestions for the 3 seraph slots (one may need to be another exalted/baneslayer, I find myself wanting to draw them 1/10 cards rather than 1/12)

electrolyze

08-12-2009, 09:50 PM

Why not run cataclysm in that slot? Its works good with the prison effects, trinisphere and stuff. Its also really good against zoo, tribal, landstill, and i think many other decks.

You can also run elspeth in that slot. Your base is good to support her cost, and I think she is really, really strong, She can even pump your little ones into monsters.

Digital Devil

08-13-2009, 05:19 AM

Is there anyone (besides me and Eternal Dragon) who is still playing the "basic" list (w/o Cotv mainboard)? It is way faster, and the only card who ever gave me a problem was CBalance. Also, since Control is a hard matchup, too, wouldn't playing 2x-3x Kitchen Finks raise the odds against decks packing mass removal? Deed/Wrath/Cbalance are our enemies, and Kitchen Finks seem to fix the problem. Plus, KF recover lost life, making them fit well in a Tomb/Mox shell. It is pure card advantage, which is a thing I've been always searching for. Maybe as a 2-of, since the cmc is meh. Also, they combo with 'Clysm. 2 creatures against one is "teh nutz"

tivadar

08-13-2009, 01:56 PM

Digital Devil

08-15-2009, 09:30 AM

I just can't see a basic list working. Basically, if you run it, angel and other creatures just don't measure up to other colors in the format:
Goyf: a 4/5 for 2 mana
Nactal: a 3/3 for 1 mana
Kird Ape: a 2/3 for 1 mana
Thoctar: a 5/4 for 3 mana
Reliquary: around a 5/5 for 3 mana

The only way to beat these decks is to use CotV to prevent them from casting all the low CC stuff and then using high CC stuff to give you card advantage.

Or, optionally, splash green and beat them at their own game... Then Chrome Mox is a lot more relevant than tomb/city.
Well... for basic I didn't mean the Parallax Wave/Lions/Isamaru build, because that's what I mean for classic. I'm sorry, because I didn't allow the readers to understand what I mean, since for me it's self-explanatory but in fact it isn't. So, sorry again.

I wanted to underline the fact that the creatures you listed are all efficient and cheap, but as those creatures were released, other two cards joined the party: Oblivion Ring and Path to Exile. Now I'm running a 4 Swords/3 Rings/2 Paths split, and creatures aren't really an issue. The curve of my build is like this:

0 xxx (3)
1 xxxxxxxxxxxx (12)
2 xxxxxxxxxxxxx (13)
3 xxxxxxxxx (9)
4 xxx (3)
5
6 xxxx (4)

The only things that disappoint me are Counterbalance and my own Chrome Moxen, that's why I play 3. 14 out of 21 creatures in my build are evasive, so I barely block anyway. I just wanted to know if Kitchen Finks would deserve some slots, as it is has synergies with Cataclysm, helps fighting sweepers, recovers some life loss and has a 3cc cost which is a good point against Counterbalance. The thing I noticed is when a 3cc card is on the top3 of your opponent's library, he or she can just keep the 3cc card away from the top to not draw it and swap them when I have to cast an O-Ring. That said, CBalance/Top is pretty much gg even with maindecked Rings. The deck has access to a good amount of removal, but when it comes to face that soft lock it is just doomed. I have the staples for a Chalice Aggro variant, but I don't get why I should play that instead of Dragon Stompy. The fact is, this deck owns any sort of aggro, and has good odds against aggro/control w/o Counterbalance. CB/Top, Landstill and combo are hard matchups, though. Splashing for green seems like a reasonable idea, but it tends to weaken the manabase. Basically the mono-white version is no longer viable. Blame on Counterbalance, I loved this deck. I don't want to mourn for Angel Stompy, is there a way in the universe this deck (not the Chalice aggro version) can continue to exist? I'm afraid the answer is "no" =(

EDIT: please, tell me if my thoughts are correct. Now, suppose your opponent just focuses on countering your equipment. Then, all you have is 2/2s. But if counters are used on equipment, they have less for removal. But if you remove your opponent's threats, then, equipments are useless, since they are used to a) accelerate the clock and b) make critters as big as hell, as they are 2/2s, and can't survive in a world of 2 mana 5/6s. But, once 5/6s are killed, even a 2/2 can end the game. Now, since people says Angel Stompy is no longer competitive, and the implicit thing is they talk about the Lions/Isamaru version (which I think it's pretty much dead with Chalices and Cbalance all around), I can just assume they aren't talking about the newer versions which are being developed by you all. Then, in the last few pages (counting from where the last necromancy had been started) no one has ever mentioned Cataclysm. I mean: this deck smashes aggro. Lots of removal spells help against Aggro Control. Oblivion Ring gets rid of Counterbalance. If they Grip Ring, they have one less for Jitte/Sword. Cataclysm do help against control. How can a deck with lots of removal, a higher curve than the original version plus the inclusion of Cataclysm be compared to the "I play a 2/1, hope to resolve Parallax Wave otherwise I'm f****d" version? Also, about Path to Exile. You get extra lands? Then I play Tithe, and get extra lands too. After that, I'm gonna destroy you and your manabase with Cataclysm.

Side note: Aven Mindcensor is divine. Play it on turn 1 and watch your opponent's face. It won me many games just by itself, giving me the time to swarm and win. Also, Path + Censor is tech. Stay tuned for more updates.

Digital Devil

09-27-2009, 01:47 PM

I was wondering, with the release of Zendikar, if Kor Sanctifiers would improve this deck's matchup against Counter/Top based decks. Basically the card is a +1 attached to a 2/3 body. In the worst case scenario, it is better than a hard-cast Simian Spirit Guide. I know it may look crappy, but I've tested it intensely since it first appeared on MTGSalvation. I'm playing only 1-of atm, to keep the curve smooth. It replaced a Mother of Runes in my list, and it went good. There are still 6 starters in my list, plus, I run a full set of Chrome Moxen to support stronger starts (and because extra mana is needed to cast Sanctifiers with Kicker). The 22 mana build looks great, it is stable and consistent. Plus, I have a 4th answer to Counterbalance maindeck, without fearing a Krosan Grip on my O-Rings. It also randomly removes pesky things like Jitte/Nought/Vial/Chalice. I repeat it, at worst, it kills Bob and survives, can keep a Mishra's Factory in check, and random utility creatures. Card advantage is always great. They printed Path to Exile to deal with Goyf. They printed Sanctifiers to deal with Counterbalance. Oh, how could I forget about O-Ring, which can deal with both? My latest list is as follows:

// Lands
8 [9E] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [TSB] Soltari Priest
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [ZEN] Kor Sanctifiers

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [EX] Cataclysm
2 [VI] Tithe
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MR] Mask of Memory
1 [FD] Steelshaper's Gift

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FUT] Patrician's Scorn
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm

I just can't afford to waste 8 slots for a single matchup. Thus, I removed Chalice. I kept Thorn because of its versatility: it really shines against Stax, Enchantress, Landstill and, obviously, Combo. I also removed Chalice because the best hate we can run is cc1: just think about Relic and Needle. The additional Paths are for the Merfolk/Zoo matchup. Merfolk needs to be dealt with instant-speed removal: we need blockers to withstand their army, and besides Aven Mindcensor we can only play creatures on our turn. Also, Path is cool because it is cheap and fast, and avoids Daze. Against Zoo, well... Qasali Pridemage maindeck, and Krosan Grip coming from the board make me think about removing Ring. Patrician's Scorn has returned as a sb-tech. I didn't like the idea of playing the third Needle or the fourth Oblivion Ring. My will was to help filling the holes of the deck. Armageddon? Nope, I already have Thorn against Control. Glowrider? Nope, I removed Chalice because I hate to waste slots on a single matchup. Thorn is better, and I already play 4. The other problematic cards which came to mind were Deed and Counterbalance. But, as I said, since I dislike playing more than 2 Needles, I choose Patrician's Scorn because nobody expects it, it is hard to Counterbalance, and, most important, is free. Obviously it destroys my own Oblivion Rings, but I simply wait 'till they destroy 'em themselves to cast this bomb. Also secret tech against Survival and Enchantress.

P.S. I have a question. What is the better creature base?

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [TSB] Soltari Priest
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [ZEN] Kor Sanctifiers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [TSB] Soltari Priest
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [ZEN] Kor Sanctifiers

f|i[p]

09-27-2009, 03:12 PM

Their only difference is 1 priest vs serra avenger. I'd go for the full play sets of priests. Id rather cast priest early than wait for 4th turn for avenger.

However, I have a question since you've been pushing for a non splash angel stompy.

Aside from swords to plowshare. What do you do against a goyf? Cataclysm can't do much against it since you might end up leaving a creature thats far bigger than any of yours. Exalted angels are usually dealt with in a quick fashion, and almost rarely goes online. Specially now with decks packing qasali pridemage, equipments seem to be less reliable. They still are a must answer however.

I don't really think cataclysm is as strong as they used to be when goyf wasn't around.Long ago you could simply leave a silver knight equiped with a SoFI and win.. Now 4/5 goyfs can block it .. and kill it at the same time. Priests would go further. But you would end up racing the opponent.

I just don't see the logic of not splashing a color in angel stompy at all. Green gives you your own goyfs as well as pridemages for utility.

Its your choice however.

Also lately there have been ton's of aggro decks floating around different metagames and combo seems fewer than ever... Maybe angel stompy can actually make a come back with the right card choices..

Digital Devil

09-27-2009, 03:58 PM

;386561']Their only difference is 1 priest vs serra avenger. I'd go for the full play sets of priests. Id rather cast priest early than wait for 4th turn for avenger.

However, I have a question since you've been pushing for a non splash angel stompy.

Aside from swords to plowshare. What do you do against a goyf? Cataclysm can't do much against it since you might end up leaving a creature thats far bigger than any of yours. Exalted angels are usually dealt with in a quick fashion, and almost rarely goes online. Specially now with decks packing qasali pridemage, equipments seem to be less reliable. They still are a must answer however.

I don't really think cataclysm is as strong as they used to be when goyf wasn't around.Long ago you could simply leave a silver knight equiped with a SoFI and win.. Now 4/5 goyfs can block it .. and kill it at the same time. Priests would go further. But you would end up racing the opponent.

I just don't see the logic of not splashing a color in angel stompy at all. Green gives you your own goyfs as well as pridemages for utility.

Its your choice however.

Also lately there have been ton's of aggro decks floating around different metagames and combo seems fewer than ever... Maybe angel stompy can actually make a come back with the right card choices..
Ok, I'll restart my testing with 4 Priests. I used to play with 3 Serra Avengers because vigilance is a nice ability, (especially with equipments) and because I fear to not be able to block when needed. The reason I don't splash a color is because I've tested all possible combinations (even the :w::r: one with REBs in the SB) and the common thing I noticed was the frustrating problem of having an inconsistent deck. One of the strenghts of this deck is the resilience to mana denial (via Tithe/Flagstones/Mox, and lots of basics). I've been almost always mana-screwed with all the possible color combinations, and, even the :u: splash, which is supposed to grant more flexibility and better topdecks, was a failure. Talking about Cataclysm, I understand your point, that's why I play 3 maindeck, and side 'em out against Aggro/Control strategies. I used to play 4x, but I noticed the same exact thing as you did, and rapidly replaced one with the 3rd Oblivion Ring, which also answers Counterbalance. That's because, to answer your question, it's the :u::u: enchantment the real problem. I rely on my removal to deal with threats, but if those removal can't be played, the risk is to be outraced. The fact is, Goyf stares at an untapped Mother, fails to outrace an Exalted Angel, it's sent to Mars by StP and O-Ring, and if my Jitte ever connects, even a 2/2 can become 6/6. Your statement regarding combo is also true, that's why I abandoned Chalices sb. I play this deck as my "semi-homebrew" deck, only if the meta allows it, but the times I do I really enjoy it, and also remember how it was 3 years ago. That's why I'm pushing towards a "resurrection". I also noticed white has access to lots of on-color answers to its same problems. I want to see mono :w: Angel Stompy top8ing @ a major event. Maybe I won't, but I'm doing all my best to do so. Or, at least, I hope to see someone else with this deck in his deck box.

f|i[p]

09-28-2009, 03:47 AM

I really think green hast the best splash now. As geddon stax has splashed the color as well.. I was actually thinking Red as well, as it gives you reach as well as figure of destiny which is always a threat even lategame.

However, having green will give you tarmogoyf. Pridemage will be very crucial in goyf wars and it can answer any artifact or enchantment as well. THis is one of the reasons zoo became viable again and they run it as a 4 of.

Not only does green give you good creatures, it gives you great sideboard against blue. Choke which is one of the best. Krosan grips are great against counterbalance , sensei,pernicious deed and etc. I actually splashed green in stax just for chokes and grips. There are other cards that can be used like compost, gaddock teeg which can be very helpful in the sideboard. Although cannonist is a good hoser for combo, I choose teeg over it because, teeg helps against ichorid as well.

I am actually tweaking a G/w version of angel stompy, as I think I might take out chrome moxen over all. I don't like its card disadvantage, and explosive starts with angel doesn't work as well as it did years and years ago.

Atwa

09-28-2009, 08:12 AM

In a cataclysm build, there is even more reason for splashing green: Armadillo Cloak.

I know it seems crappy, but being able to keep 2 pumpcards around (cloak and and jitte/sword) with a creature usually wins you games. Who cares if you only have a priest and your opponent keeps his Goyf?

Digital Devil

10-03-2009, 05:58 AM

;386681']explosive starts with angel doesn't work as well as it did years and years ago.I have to disagree with this. Lightning Bolt, StP, Force of Will and Daze were already 1.5 legal. Exalted Angel is as effective as it has always been. The other creatures, though...

being able to keep 2 pumpcards around (cloak and and jitte/sword) with a creature usually wins you games.
Cloak is meh. Wanna be 2x1'd? Play Grafted Wargear, then. Cloak does what Exalted Angel already does. I loathe Enchant-things. Equipments offer the chance to make every single creature in your deck a must-answer threat. The real question is: who cares if you have an equipped Mindcensor if your opponent doesn't have a single creature on his side of the table? I've never had a single issue with that. The only problem is against control. The green splash increases the odds against Landstill & co., but also increases those of being manascrewed, because the mana base is much more unstable. I'm just saying even a 2/2 can end the game, if paired with some good answers. And white has a lot of on-color answers.

f|i[p]

10-04-2009, 10:45 AM

@Digital devil
I believe that a turn one angel isn't as effective as it was years ago. Zoo has risen in popularity, and there are tons of people who play it now. Tempo thresh is also more common. The last thing I'd want to see is pitch a white card to chrome mox, play tomb, cast morphed angel.... Bolt, path...stp, daze.. there goes 2 cards, and 2 damage...I'd rather cast a 1cc threat than play angel right away. Exalted angels aren't as strong as they used to be.

If you insist that staying mono white is better than splashing a color because of mana base issues. I will leave you to your thoughts and hope that you have success.

Even if white is my favorite color, I know, that its the weakest color,and therefor needs all the support it can get from other colors.

I will just concede to the fact that, we should agree to disagree.

@Atwa
Cloak was actually good and used in green/w rouge decks that ran troll ascetic.

Digital Devil

10-04-2009, 01:12 PM

;388617']@Digital devil
I believe that a turn one angel isn't as effective as it was years ago. Zoo has risen in popularity, and there are tons of people who play it now. Tempo thresh is also more common. The last thing I'd want to see is pitch a white card to chrome mox, play tomb, cast morphed angel.... Bolt, path...stp, daze.. there goes 2 cards, and 2 damage...I'd rather cast a 1cc threat than play angel right away. Exalted angels aren't as strong as they used to be.

If you insist that staying mono white is better than splashing a color because of mana base issues. I will leave you to your thoughts and hope that you have success.

Even if white is my favorite color, I know, that its the weakest color,and therefor needs all the support it can get from other colors.

I will just concede to the fact that, we should agree to disagree.
Listing the cards against which a creature smashes its teeth is not a mean to say it's not good. Of course, against an unknown opponent, the first thing I want to do is to drop Mother of Runes, or a Sword. Then, if I know what kind of deck my opponent is playing, it's pure gold. For instance, if my opponent is playing Aggro Loam/Goblins/Merfolk/Burn/Dragon or Faerie Stompy, namely a deck with little to no removal (and in the case of Burn if I lose 2 life because of Tomb, I take 1 dmg less because that burn spells should be aimed @ me at first glance, and instead I force my opponent to redirect it to my face-down card), turn 1 Exalted Angel is as good as it has always been. Obviously against Zoo I'm not playing turn 1 Angel, because between Chain Lightning, Stp/Path and Bolt it wouldn't survive a single cleanup step. And obviously if I'm on the draw I'm waiting for my opponent to vomit its hand to deal with pesky creatures like Mother or Mindcensor, then land the fatal Angel. If Angel survives, or has backup protection, nothing can stand in its way. I managed to outrace both Progenitus and Phyrexian Dreadnought, and it continues to happen. Angel is as good as it was years ago, it's the other cards which got stronger. Meanwhile, as creatures started to get bigger, white got better removal spells. I've never seen Faerie Stompy splashing white for Oblivion Ring and Rule of Law, mainly because of the consistency issues. Trying to fill every gap is impossible. Every deck has its strenghts and weaknesses, and should be accepted for that. I'm not saying this is the Deck to Beat, I just wanted to point out the fact that besides combo, this deck has no unwinnable matchup. To win and continue winning, one must adapt: choosing the right card means using the card that best fulfills its purpose, not the card that is accepted as strongest. Just like you said, I want to discover the correct card choices to make this deck stronger. Splashing for another color makes Angel Stompy a different deck.

lorddotm

10-30-2009, 06:29 AM

White Chalice Aggro

4 Mindcensor
4 Glowrider
4 Hookmaster
4 Sanctifier
2 Exalted Angel

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice
4 Trini
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclasm
4 SoFI

8 Plains
4 Flagstone
4 Tomb
4 City

Very rough list.

Digital Devil

10-30-2009, 04:03 PM

Very rough list.
For sure. The Sanctifiers are cool, though. I play them as a one-of because I need the anti-artifact/enchantment plan #4, and I hate to draw multiple Rings, just in case I need to cast a gamebreaking Cataclysm. Tomorrow I'm going to play this deck in a 40+ men tournament, and since I think it can win in the proper meta I wanted to post my latest list.

// Lands
8 [9E] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [ZEN] Kor Sanctifiers

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [EX] Cataclysm
2 [VI] Tithe
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MR] Mask of Memory
1 [FD] Steelshaper's Gift

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FUT] Patrician's Scorn
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm
The meta is going to be full of Zoo and Goblin decks, lots of red based, Enchantress, Stax, some Counter/Tops and a single Landstill deck. Absolutely no combo decks. Figure of Destiny has proven to be a good card. 2nd turn 4/4 hastes this deck by a bit, making it faster and giving less to no time for your opponent to answer your threats. I cut Soltari Priest, mainly because I needed another starter, and FoD, although slow, can be powered up with ease, making it auto-include. The curve is of a kinda weird concept, but seems to work well for now. Any suggestions?

EDIT: I woke up now. The tournament will start in half an hour. Epic fail.

Meister_Kai

10-30-2009, 05:33 PM

Personally I never agreed with Razor Golem and Knight of the Holy Nimbus being cut from the list. Also, wasn't it the point of Angel Stompy to play some threats, cataclysm, swords their last dude and beat with a Golem+another creature? In fact I would say the Golem was the MVP of the deck, if he was equipped with basically anything after clysm' that was probably game.

I guess I am pretty biased though, as I have been running Zilla's last posted list since it was, well, posted, and I haven't seen any reason to change hardly anything up. I never liked the tithe or the chrome mox inclusions either, because even though they allow for turn 1 angels so forth that puts you at a major disadvantage if they daze whatever card you attempt to play early.

EDIT; Zilla's last posted list (I admit the sideboard with some of my inclusions involved is sort of outdated)

Originally Posted by GodzillA
If you're going to alter it, I'd start with this build:

//NAME: Angel Stompy

// Mana
17 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb

// Beats
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus / Soltari Priest
4 Razor Golem
4 Exalted Angel

// Equipment
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 3 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Armageddon

The only card I can see cutting right away is perhaps Isamaru. In a Cataclysm centric build you probably won't have enough mana to make Figure of Destiny huge, so I don't know what could replace the dog.

Digital Devil

10-31-2009, 06:05 AM

//NAME: Angel Stompy

// Mana
17 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb

// Beats
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus / Soltari Priest
4 Razor Golem
4 Exalted Angel

// Equipment
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 3 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Armageddon
I used to play Razor Golem, too, but I missed the explosive turn 1 plays that made me win the game outright. The problem with that version is that it's slower, meaning combo and control are even harder matchups. Without Chrome Mox I couldn't hose my opponent with a Chalice, or play a first turn Glowrider. Golem was cool because it dodged Counterbalance/EE/Deed, but fell prey to sb Grips. Now that Qasali Pridemage and Trygon Predator are common deck choices, playing him seems dangerous. Also, after playing Cataclysm, I found it to be a weak topdeck, especially if I was forced to sweep the board but didn't have the third backup land. That's why I play Mox. It lets you have insane turn 1 plays (first turn Morph, first turn Aven Mindcensor, or second turn 4/4 Figure and so on), while keeping the deck faster and still resilient to mana denial. Figure works well with the "keep and sweep" mechanic of Cataclysm. It can be played before Cataclysm to have a huge beatstick your opponent can't outrace; it can be played after, just like Isamaru. The equipment split is cool. 6 is the right number, and I never wanted more than that number. I play a 1-of Gift just because sometimes it is better to fetch for a Sword than having a Mask which doesn't affect the race. And I see no logical reason behind not playing Oblivion Ring. It solves almost all of the problems this deck can come up against (Counterbalance/big creatures/lock pieces). Aven Mindcensor, to me, is a must-include, too. It can be used as pseudo-removal, it's evasive, it's a continuos semi-stifle and sometimes it can even steal g1 against combo. As for the sideboard, I found 8 slots against combo to be too much. Also, the hate pieces I used to side in were :1: cc, so Chalice was sometimes symmetric. Although extremely powerful, I found Thorn of Amethyst to be the best tool (not CotV) against combo, as well as control. Then I replaced the remaining slots with other utilities, but that's a personal choice. That said, I find the Chrome Mox version to be superior to the Razor Golem one. I wanted to test my latest version today, but unfortunately I woke up too late (I didn't even hear my alarm clock). Has anyone succesfully played both versions of the deck?

overseer1234

12-02-2009, 01:01 PM

Ah come on, this thread keeps on dying over and over again...

Annyway here's the decklist I'm currently running:

4x Chrome Mox
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Exalted Angel
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Mother of Runes
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x Silver Knight
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Flagstones of Trokair
11x Plains
3x Cataclysm

Sideboard

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Aven Mindcensor
3x Glowrider
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Cataclysm

Loving explosivenes in decks (bubble hulk, and dragon stompy like decks) I play 4 chrome mox, however no city of traitor's (yet) since I like my mana sources permanent, and there's a lot of WW in the deck so....

On to the equipment: 6 equipment but no mask of memory.
Mask doesnt doe enough against other agro, and it's really only good on creature's with evasion (and one of them needs the body more then the cards) so I'm splitting this by adding an extra jitte and sword.
Maybe I'll change it back if is doesn't seem to work)

Aven mindcencor main deck: playing tomb and mox get's it down on turn 2 easily, hose's combo and is a permanent stifle on fetch, AND: its so freaking funny to play it in response to a standstill :D no reason not to run This.

Samurai main deck (leftover from playing with death& taxes (untill wizards decide to rape the deck) works wonders as a GY hoser, and became better with the coming of bloodghast (3/1 like ichorid made it more like a 1time shot).
(Also you sometimes get it up against bad opponent's and they simply forget the bushido and you get to steal some creature's during combat.)

3 oblivion ring and one in the board: absolutely no reason not to run this.

Sideboard has it's complement of GY and combo hate, the last 3 slot's are filled up with the 4-off's, but can also become arti/ench hate...

Alright, discuss people. Don't let a deck as fun as this one die out...