Ice Cauldron charge counters

[FTW]

My board:
Ice Cauldron
Voltaic Key
City of Traitors
2 Swamp


There are 0 charge counters on Cauldron.
I have Griselbrand and Grim Affliction in hand.

I pay 2BB and tap Cauldron to exile Griselbrand from my hand and put a charge counter on Ice Cauldron. I pass the turn.

Next turn I cast Grim Affliction on some enemy dork to Proliferate my Cauldron, with one mana open.
I tap Cauldron for its mana ability.
I pay 1 and activate Voltaic Key to untap Cauldron.
I tap Cauldron for its mana ability.

What happens? How much mana is in my pool? Does Cauldron produce no mana since no mana was used to put the last charge counter on it? Does it produce 2BB for each charge counter, so 4BBBB total, only usable to cast Griselbrand? Does Cauldron do nothing for the proliferated counter and just produce 2BB for the original counter?

Or would a judge slap me upside the face for wasting his time instead of just getting 2BB from my lands + 2BB from Cauldron and skipping the whole proliferate BS?

[FTW]

Also, what happens if:
-Ice Cauldron starts off with 1 charge counter on it, previously having exiled Increasing Ambition paying BB
-the Griselbrand is my Commander (but somehow in hand) and I choose to send it to the Command Zone instead of exile
-I don't cast Grim Affliction so Cauldron still has 2 charge counters

When I use Voltaic Key to activate the mana ability twice and remove both counters from Cauldron, will it:

1) "forget" Griselbrand since it never went to exile and give me BBBB total for Ambition?
2) give me 4BBBB total for Griselbrand that I can still use to cast it from the Command Zone?
3) give me 4BBBB that I cannot spend on anything (since the pointer would be pointing to nothing)?
4) give me an unusable 2BB for the first counter and BB for Ambition with the second counter?
5) give me 2BB (the last mana spent) for each counter only usable for Ambition (the last card exiled, since Griselbrand was never exiled)?

[FTW]

Can anyone chime in about Ice Cauldron?

[phazonmutant]

Can anyone chime in about Ice Cauldron?

Can you jump in a hole and die?

Just kidding.

Scenario 1 seems legit. The oracle seems to link charge counters to the "last noted type and amount of mana", so if you can use 2 charge counters, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to cheat out Griselbrand with your 4-card combo.

Your second situation doesn't make sense. There's either no charge counters on it and then you imprint Griselbrand, or there are charge counters from Increasing Ambition and you can't activate the first ability. Even assuming Griselbrand was somehow exiled then sent to the command zone instead, you couldn't use Ice Cauldron's second ability's mana to cast Griselbrand from command zone because it's a different object than the one Ice Cauldron was tracking. Also, Griselbrand is banned in EDH.

[FTW]

Thanks. I clearly wasn't asking if this was a viable way to cheat Griselbrand out in Legacy. I'm wondering if Proliferate and untap effects can be used to abuse Ice Cauldron to produce large amounts of colored mana to cheat out random.fatty, mostly in Commander. Could be interesting in ramp strategies. Rosheen Meanderer likes the X on Ice Cauldron... Imagine using Rings of Brighthearth + Voltaic Key + Doubling Cube + Ice Cauldron (with Rosheen+other mana stored) to cast Hydras...



Your second situation doesn't make sense. There's either no charge counters on it and then you imprint Griselbrand, or there are charge counters from Increasing Ambition and you can't activate the first ability. Even assuming Griselbrand was somehow exiled then sent to the command zone instead, you couldn't use Ice Cauldron's second ability's mana to cast Griselbrand from command zone because it's a different object than the one Ice Cauldron was tracking. Also, Griselbrand is banned in EDH.

According to Gatherer, it can exile multiple cards at once. You can always activate the first ability.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202494

But the rules tips seem pretty ambiguous for the case when multiple cards are exiled by Ice Cauldron (e.g. card A and card B). You can cast both card A and card B from exile normally; that is clear. Ice Cauldron only gives mana for the last type of mana spent and to be spent on the last card tracked (card B). But if card B is "lost" (i.e. sent to Command Zone instead of exile), then it isn't clear whether it would still refer to card A, the last linked card. Also, if you cast card B using Cauldron mana and there are still charge counters left, it isn't clear whether it would revert to tracking card A and card A's mana or if that information is permanently lost and the remaining charge counters are useless. Or if the remaining charge counters would provide mana for card B, useless since card B was already cast. All it says is that you can exile multiple cards...

I'm wondering if anyone knows this card works, since Gatherer tips don't really cover these corner cases well. Thanks.

[phazonmutant]

Thanks. I clearly wasn't asking if this was a viable way to cheat Griselbrand out in Legacy. I'm wondering if Proliferate and untap effects can be used to abuse Ice Cauldron to produce large amounts of colored mana to cheat out random.fatty, mostly in Commander. Could be interesting in ramp strategies. Rosheen Meanderer likes the X on Ice Cauldron... Imagine using Rings of Brighthearth + Voltaic Key + Doubling Cube + Ice Cauldron (with Rosheen+other mana stored) to cast Hydras...

Haha, if that's what gets you going at night, well, more power to you. For what it's worth, Ice Cauldron is one of those joke cards whose sole purpose is daggering judges. Short answer, yes, Proliferate + untap effects will work.


According to Gatherer, it can exile multiple cards at once. You can always activate the first ability.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202494

Unless Ice Cauldron has a charge counter on it. So sure, you could use Voltaic Key in response to Cauldron's ability and exile another card, or you could draw mana from it and not cast the spell exiled with Cauldron, then use the first ability again...but why would you?


But the rules tips seem pretty ambiguous for the case when multiple cards are exiled by Ice Cauldron (e.g. card A and card B). You can cast both card A and card B from exile normally; that is clear. Ice Cauldron only gives mana for the last type of mana spent and to be spent on the last card tracked (card B). But if card B is "lost" (i.e. sent to Command Zone instead of exile), then it isn't clear whether it would still refer to card A, the last linked card. Also, if you cast card B using Cauldron mana and there are still charge counters left, it isn't clear whether it would revert to tracking card A and card A's mana or if that information is permanently lost and the remaining charge counters are useless. Or if the remaining charge counters would provide mana for card B, useless since card B was already cast. All it says is that you can exile multiple cards...

I'm wondering if anyone knows this card works, since Gatherer tips don't really cover these corner cases well. Thanks.

It will always refer to the last exiled card. So once you exile a second card onto the Cauldron, you can never use Cauldron mana to cast the first card again. However, if you send a card to the Command Zone instead of exile, going to exile is replaced by going to the Command Zone. Therefore, if you say activate Cauldron for BB, Key it, activate it again for {2}, exile Juzam Djinn for the second activation, and replace exiling Griselbrand with sending him to the Command Zone for the first activation, then next turn you could tap Cauldron for BB to cast Juzam, but you can't use that mana to cast Griselbrand.

For more detail on linked abilities, see:

607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to “the exiled cards” or to cards “exiled with [this object],” these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability

[nedleeds]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eLb_uY1hIPE/UE-97qR5FpI/AAAAAAAAAog/k8rZ9DvIWds/s576/IMAG0305.jpg

[rufus]

...It will always refer to the last exiled card. So once you exile a second card onto the Cauldron, you can never use Cauldron mana to cast the first card again...
The old rulings in oracle indicate that that is the case. However, Duplicant uses similar phrasing, but seems to be set up to work the other way. (With Strionic Resonator the issue isn't completely academic anymore.)

[FTW]

but why would you?

Lots of reasons in casual/EDH games. To store extra mana and the original card is not relevant to cast yet, or if you draw a more threatening spell to ramp out, or to save a key card from someone's Thoughtseize or whatnot. You can still cast the first card from exile without using Cauldron mana even after Cauldron is dead, so it is essentially like it is in your hand except it doesn't have any drawbacks of being a card in hand. So if there is a Sire of Insanity or Bottled Cloister or you have Hellbent creatures, you could hide cards under a Cauldron for x=0 and still use them. Just another way to break some rules of the game.


Therefore, if you say activate Cauldron for BB, Key it, activate it again for {2}, exile Juzam Djinn for the second activation, and replace exiling Griselbrand with sending him to the Command Zone for the first activation, then next turn you could tap Cauldron for BB to cast Juzam, but you can't use that mana to cast Griselbrand.
A little confused here when you say "activate" since both abilities are activated and involve mana. So say you have a Cauldron with 0 counters. You activate the first ability paying BBBB, then in response untap it with Key and activate the first ability again for BB. The stack resolves and you exile Scathe Zombies first (for BB) and then Griselbrand (for BBBB), but you choose to send Griselbrand to the Command Zone instead of to exile. So Griselbrand is never exiled. Is the link "broken" or never made? Now when you activate the second ability, which mana cost and which card is it linked to?
a) BBBB for nothing, since Griselbrand isn't in exile
b) BB for Scathe Zombies
c) BBBB for Scathe Zombies

Thanks

[Malchar]

The old rulings in oracle indicate that that is the case. However, Duplicant uses similar phrasing, but seems to be set up to work the other way. (With Strionic Resonator the issue isn't completely academic anymore.)

Duplicant doesn't really have similar language because it doesn't refer to the last card exiled.

If the first ability of Ice Cauldron is used to exile multiple cards, then the second ability could theoretically refer to any or all of the exiled cards. However, the second ability only ever cares about the last card exiled.


A little confused here when you say "activate" since both abilities are activated and involve mana. So say you have a Cauldron with 0 counters. You activate the first ability paying BBBB, then in response untap it with Key and activate the first ability again for BB. The stack resolves and you exile Scathe Zombies first (for BB) and then Griselbrand (for BBBB), but you choose to send Griselbrand to the Command Zone instead of to exile. So Griselbrand is never exiled. Is the link "broken" or never made? Now when you activate the second ability, which mana cost and which card is it linked to?
a) BBBB for nothing, since Griselbrand isn't in exile
b) BB for Scathe Zombies
c) BBBB for Scathe Zombies

Thanks

It's clear to me that the mana will be the last noted type and amount. This has nothing to do with the exiled cards. Since the BBBB activation resolves last, then that's the mana you'll get when you use the second ability.


If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.

The mana can't be used on Griselbrand because it's not in exile anymore. Specifically, Griselbrand was not exiled by ice cauldron. It was put into the command zone. Therefore, scathe zombies remains the "last card exiled with ice cauldron".

The result should be option C.

[rufus]

Duplicant doesn't really have similar language because it doesn't refer to the last card exiled.

Duplicant:


...Duplicant has the power, toughness, and creature types of the last creature card exiled with Duplicant...

(This is apparently a change motivated by Strionic Resonator.)

[Malchar]

Duplicant:

(This is apparently a change motivated by Strionic Resonator.)

My mistake, I wasn't looking at the newest wording for Duplicant.