[Brainstorming]Skullbriar, the Walking Grave

[Davran]

Commander:
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave

Ramp:
Arbor Elf
Elves of Deep Shadow
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Search for Tomorrow
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Wild Growth

Tutors:
Crop Rotation
Vampiric Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Demonic Tutor
Beseech the Queen
Sylvan Scrying
Expedition Map

Card Draw/Selection:
Read the Bones
Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena

Removal:
Fleshbag Marauder
Acidic Slime
Shriekmaw
Duplicant
Abrupt Decay
Deglamer
Go for the Throat
Beast Within
Dismember
Krosan Grip
Putrefy
Maelstrom Pulse
Damnation
Vraska the Unseen

Skullbriar Utility:
Bramblewood Paragon
Champion of Lambholt
Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Corpsejack Menace
Forgotten Ancient
Immaculate Magistrate
Profane Command
Contagion Clasp
Fireshrieker
Tangle Wire
Whispersilk Cloak
Rancor
Canopy Cover
Doubling Season

Recursion:
Eternal Witness
Regrowth
Phyrexian Reclamation
Crucible of Worlds

Misc. Utility:
Lotleth Troll
Scavenging Ooze
Imperious Perfect
Ant Queen
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Skullclamp
Culling Dais
Lightning Greaves
Garruk Wildspeaker

Lands:
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dryad Arbor
Gilt-leaf Palace
Homeward Path
Llanowar Wastes
Overgrown Tomb
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Strip Mine
Tainted Wood
Twilight Mire
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Verdant Catacombs
Wasteland
Woodland Cemetery
Yavimaya Hollow
Forest x 12
Swamp x 8

The general idea is to cast a turn 2 Skullbriar and go to town on whomever has the weakest board position or is playing the strongest general. From there, there's plenty of cheap removal and sources of evasion to keep up the beats long enough to get to 21 commander damage.

I've tried to skew the ramp options to cards that come down on turn 1 in order to maximize a turn 2 Skullbriar. This also maximizes my ability to re-cast him on turn 3 if he eats removal or some sort of flash blocker. It's also worth noting that most of the 1 drop mana dorks are elves for Immaculate Magistrate, they make perfect fodder for Skullclamp, and they all give a +1/+1 counter to Skullbriar with a Varolz, the Scar-Striped in play.

Should the Skullbriar plan go sour, Kokusho, the Evening Star + Sac Outlet + Recursion is the backup plan.

[FTW]

I've played against Skullbriar online a bit and found it plays best when you play hyperaggressive and try to win with commander damage. Skullbriar's ability highly favours attacking and connecting every single turn - otherwise you are not getting full bang out of his ability - and he is essentially immune to sweepers having haste and keeping all his counters!

However, he is vulnerable to spot removal and has no natural evasion. He's particularly vulnerable to -1/-1 counters, since Contagion Clasp or Fume Spitter basically locks Skullbriar out of existence :(.

So I would run:

Whispersilk Cloak
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Vengeance
Lightning Greaves
Rancor
Asceticism
Brawn
Melira, Sylvok Outcast


Corpsejack Menace, Doubling Season, graft creatures and some proliferate effects seem good too.
If you're going to abuse +1/+1 counters, I'd be tempted to run Lotleth Troll.


If you do include Melira as -1/-1 protection, might as well include:
Birthing Pod
Survival of the Fittest
Carrion Feeder
Puppeteer Clique
Rendclaw Trow
for the random Melira combo.

Beyond that I would just play a ton of utility and removal and some protection, since Skullbriar can win the game on his own very quickly if you let him do his thing.

[FTW]

Hmmm...


//Commander: 1
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave

//Mana Dorks: 4
Arbor Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt

//Ramp: 5
Nature's Lore
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Yavimaya Elder
Solemn Simulacrum
Garruk Wildspeaker

//Equipment: 5
Whispersilk Cloak
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Vengeance

//Other Buffs: 4
Rancor
Asceticism
Brawn
Forgotten Ancient

//Proliferation: 3
Doubling Season
Corpsejack Menace
Contagion Engine

//Tutors: 10
Vampiric Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Imperial Seal
Expedition Map
Demonic Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Survival of the Fittest
Birthing Pod
Natural Order

//Removal & Utility: 20
Abrupt Decay
Beast Within
Fleshbag Marauder
Ashes to Ashes
Go for the Throat
Vendetta
Tragic Slip
Dismember
Acidic Slime
Putrefy
Maelstrom Pulse
Bramblecrush
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Shriekmaw
Wickerbough Elder
Eternal Witness
Deadwood Treefolk
Puppeteer Clique
Pernicious Deed

//This is EDH Bro: 8
Sylvan Primordial
Terastodon
Duplicant
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Sepulchral Primordial
Genesis
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Liliana of the Dark Realms

//Melira combo: 3
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Carrion Feeder
Woodfall Primus

//Lands: 37
Dryad Arbor
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Bayou
Overgrown Tomb
Misty Rainforest
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Windswept Heath
Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Verdant Catacombs
Llanowar Wastes
Command Tower
City of Brass
Gilt-Leaf Palace
Golgari Rot Farm
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Homeward Path
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Volrath's Stronghold
8 Forest
7 Swamp


That's just a rough guess. Maybe you should actually play with a much lower curve and go all aggro? IDK. GL. Hopefully that gives you some ideas.

[Davran]

Stuff

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I like the direction the list you posted is heading, and I think that's the way I'm going to go as well. I'm planning on brewing tonight...so we'll see where this goes.

It occurred to me on my otherwise boring drive home from work that Varolz, the Scar-Striped has a nice synergy with Skullbriar. You can essentially let Skullbriar grow by doing his thing, and when he is eventually killed just put him in the graveyard for scavenge shenanigans. The "exile" effect will return him to the command zone, counters intact, for another bout.

[Davran]

I've been brewing...and I've come up with this janky combo for an "infinitely" large Skullbriar:

Plan A:

Aluren + Cloudstone Curio + Hunting Moa/Bond Beetle and some other three drop.

Plan B:

Aluren + Cloudstone Curio + Ulvenwald Bear + Bone Shredder

This approach has a few pros and cons...

Pros:

1. It's instant speed, which means your opponent will instantly regret saying "no blocks".

2. The pieces aren't super terrible on their own. Ok, so Ulvenwald Bear and Bond Beetle are pretty terrible...but there are actually worse magic cards.

3. You don't actually need Skullbriar to make this work, although he is the best target. Other alternatives include Lotleth Troll, Inkmoth Nexus and Varolz, the Scar-Striped.

4. You can kill someone as early as turn 4 about as often as you can win the lottery.

Cons:

1. "In response, [insert removal spell here]"

2. It's a 4 card combo.

3. No redundancy or protection for the main engine pieces (Aluren and Cloudstone Curio).

4. You need a 5th card to give Skullbriar some sort of evasion if you use Plan A.

Any thoughts on how to make this more resilient/better...or is this just a terrible idea that's destined to fail spectacularly?

[Aggro_zombies]

Ring of Kalonia is pretty funny with Skullbriar, as is Ring of Xathrid - although that latter one is less useful since you want to max out on ways to force Skullbriar through.

[FTW]

Ring of Kalonia is pretty funny with Skullbriar, as is Ring of Xathrid - although that latter one is less useful since you want to max out on ways to force Skullbriar through.

Hahaha wow I forgot those Rings even existed. Kalonia actually looks good!

There's also that Land with 4,T: target creature is unblockable this turn. Rogue's Passage? I would add that.

Tempting Licid would be good if you\re going to play with random Aluren dorks. Just "lure" some dork and attack with it and Skullbriar, Skullbriar goes unblocked, then unattach the Licid before the creature dies and attach it to some other dork next turn....

Akroma's Memorial probably doesn't hurt in multiplayer...

[TsumiBand]

Would Unspeakable Symbol be terrible here?

[Davran]

Ring of Kalonia is pretty funny with Skullbriar, as is Ring of Xathrid - although that latter one is less useful since you want to max out on ways to force Skullbriar through.

Ring of Kalonia seems sweet. The counters on upkeep portion seems slow as hell, but the trample is certainly needed. The regeneration ring might be worth it too simply as a way to protect Skullbriar from removal if I end up taking the "bad" combo approach.



There's also that Land with 4,T: target creature is unblockable this turn. Rogue's Passage? I would add that.

Tempting Licid would be good if you\re going to play with random Aluren dorks. Just "lure" some dork and attack with it and Skullbriar, Skullbriar goes unblocked, then unattach the Licid before the creature dies and attach it to some other dork next turn....

Akroma's Memorial probably doesn't hurt in multiplayer...

Rogue's Passage is on the short list of "must have" lands next to Shizo, Death's Storehouse.

I didn't know Tempting Licid existed...but it seems pretty decent. I've been debating Golgari Decoy, but the Licid seems like a much better version of that effect. Of course I could always take the ponies approach and rock a sick Prized Unicorn instead...and isn't there some equipment that has this effect too?


Would Unspeakable Symbol be terrible here?

I don't see how since Skullbriar keeps the counters. It actually seems pretty good.

[Anarky87]

I love me some Skullbriar. And it seems that just making him try and dome people as fast as you can with general damage is the most consistent way to go, and I also include a counter theme in the deck. I run the usual means of keeping him protected, with a number of ways to be able to save him from getting tucked. Also, I run a Jarad, Golgari Lich with my counter theme as a means of just killing everyone at the table if I need to. There were a few cards mentioned in here that I hadn't thought about, and I have a few slots I'm toying with, so I'll give them a try.

[Davran]

I love me some Skullbriar. And it seems that just making him try and dome people as fast as you can with general damage is the most consistent way to go, and I also include a counter theme in the deck. I run the usually means of keeping him protected, with number of ways to be able to save him from getting tucked. Also, I run a Jarad, Golgari Lich with my counter theme as a means of just killing everyone at the table if I need to. There were a few cards mentioned in here that I hadn't thought about, and I have a few slots I'm toying with, so I'll give them a try.

Do you have a list posted somewhere? I'm always looking for inspiration...

[Anarky87]

I'll have to type one out as I don't think I have a list on my computer for it. I'll see if I can get it posted before work.

[FTW]

Yeah, I can't think of a way to prevent tuck effects other than giving him Hexproof (doesn't stop Hallowed Burial/Terminus) and maxing out on creature tutors (Worldly, Sylvan, GSZ, Chord of Calling, Survival, Fauna, Birthing Pod).

Bounce is just about as bad as tuck, since it removes all the counters. Recasting him for GB is irrelevant since you'll still be starting from scratch trying to push a 1/1 through, only it won't be turn 2 anymore and opponents will have more developed board states...

So you probably want every way to give him shroud/hexproof imaginable.
Sylvan Safekeeper
Asceticism
Lightning Greaves
Vines of Vastwood
Whispersilk Cloak

etc..

But that still doesn't stop mass-bounce like Evacuation.

Another way to protect him would be to simply run multiple sacrifice outlets and sacrifice him in response to bounce/tuck.

Attrition
Carrion Feeder
Culling Dias

etc...

With sufficient GY recursion (to return him from GY) or sufficient ramp (to recast him from Command Zone), you could set it up so he's easy to deploy again. GY hate effects are irrelevant since exiling him will just send him back to the Command Zone and he'll never lose those counters. Hmmm... that might be the way to go. Playing a BG sacrifice/recursion shell with ways to force him through by either killing enemy creatures (Attrition/Grave Pact) or giving him evasion and adding counters.

[Anarky87]

. Hmmm... that might be the way to go. Playing a BG sacrifice/recursion shell with ways to force him through by either killing enemy creatures (Attrition/Grave Pact) or giving him evasion and adding counters.


More or less the path I went down. Played a pretty good amount of "Sacrifice a creature:" effects like Grim Backwoods, Greater Good, Jarad, High Market, etc. Then boost him with counters and push through with evasion. I've found Fireshrieker to be pretty good at 1 shotting players.

[Anarky87]

Finally got around to this:

-Creatures-
1 Forgotten Ancient
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich
1 Eternal Witness
1 Golgari Guildmage
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Necropolis Regent
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Corpsejack Menace
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Spike Weaver
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Moriok Replica
1 Jugan, the Rising Star
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gravecrawler
1 Bloodghast
1 Cytoplast Root-Kin
1 Vigor
1 Filth
1 Brawn

-Artifacts-
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
1 Bonehoard
1 Expedition Map
1 Fireshrieker
1 Golgari Keyrune
1 Golgari Signet
1 Skullclamp
1 Golgari Cluestone
1 Contagion Clasp
1 Contagion Engine
1 Loxodon Warhammer

-Planeswalkers
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

-Enchantments
1 Asceticism
1 Black Market
1 Dauthi Embrace
1 Death's Presence
1 Doubling Season
1 Gravepact
1 Greater Good
1 Predatory Hunger
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Rancor
1 Shape of the Wiitigo

-Instants-
1 Golgari Charm
1 Momentous Fall
1 Putrefy
1 Strength of the Tajuru
1 Tainted Strike

-Sorceries-
1 Blessings of Nature
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Increasing Savagery
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Rain of Thorns
1 Jarad's Orders

-Lands-
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Grim Backwoods
1 High Market
1 Llanowar Reborn
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Oran Rief, the Vastwood
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Strip Mine
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Tainted Wood
10 Forest
7 Swamp

I think that's less than 100, because apparently I've taken some stuff out, and that's all that I found in my deckbox. I didn't want to invest heavily into this deck at the time, and I just wanted something I could throw together pretty quickly and play some games. If decide to put some money into it, I'd definitely put some of the higher dollar cards in there.

[Davran]

List

Thanks for sharing!

Has Golgari Charm been worth it's slot? It's one of those cards I have in the pile of "maybe" cards but never end up actually slotting in because I'm not sure it does enough. That said, I suppose if the regeneration mode was going to be good in a deck, this one is probably it.

I can't believe I forgot about Champion of Lambholt. That thing is perfect in here.

Nice find on Dauthi Embrace! That's exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for as an alternative to Rogue's Passage.

What do you think about Canopy Cover as another evasion + protection card?

Lastly, I was cracking some prize packs from the pre-release this weekend, and stumbled on Savage Summoning. It seems like it might be good in a more competitive version of this deck, especially vs. other competitive decks. I also think Witchstalker might have some potential as another hard to kill body that grows as the game plays out.

[Anarky87]

Has Golgari Charm been worth it's slot? It's one of those cards I have in the pile of "maybe" cards but never end up actually slotting in because I'm not sure it does enough. That said, I suppose if the regeneration mode was going to be good in a deck, this one is probably it.

I haven't played too many games where it comes up, but it has been kinda randomly useful sometimes. Though it could probably be something with a better effect.


I can't believe I forgot about Champion of Lambholt. That thing is perfect in here.

She can be pretty beast mode. She usually gets smoked pretty fast, but with something like Asceticism out, it can start to get out of hand.


Nice find on Dauthi Embrace! That's exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for as an alternative to Rogue's Passage.

I was running Rogue's Passage in my Kozilek EDH deck as a way to push through general kills. I might try to find a way to fit it in here as well.


What do you think about Canopy Cover as another evasion + protection card?

It probably has a place. Giving Skullbriar more means of evasion is never a bad thing, and that has just about everything we'd want out of a card.


Lastly, I was cracking some prize packs from the pre-release this weekend, and stumbled on Savage Summoning. It seems like it might be good in a more competitive version of this deck, especially vs. other competitive decks. I also think Witchstalker might have some potential as another hard to kill body that grows as the game plays out.

The 2 cards I was looking at out of M14 for my deck were Kalonian Hydra and Vastwood Hydra. Both seem like decent additions. Also, Primeval Bounty might be a thing, too. Seems like anytime I cast a equipment/instant/sorcery/enchantment = Skullbriar getting +3/+3 permanently could be legit. And the other modes aren't too bad either.

PS: Also, saw Predator Ooze in the OP. That is definitely going in my deck.

[Davran]

I was running Rogue's Passage in my Kozilek EDH deck as a way to push through general kills. I might try to find a way to fit it in here as well.

Yeah, I use it in my Intet, the Dreamer deck since Intet doesn't really do anything if she can't connect. The :4: is a little less of a big deal there since I tend to have plenty of lands in play, but I worry that it may be a little too steep of an activation for an aggressive deck. Shizo, Death's Storehouse is much more manageable, as is Dauthi Embrace.


The 2 cards I was looking at out of M14 for my deck were Kalonian Hydra and Vastwood Hydra. Both seem like decent additions. Also, Primeval Bounty might be a thing, too. Seems like anytime I cast a equipment/instant/sorcery/enchantment = Skullbriar getting +3/+3 permanently could be legit. And the other modes aren't too bad either.

Kalonian Hydra is nuts for sure. Vastwood Hydra is cute at best, but I don't think it really does enough. I mean, the most common way it's going to die is via a Wrath of God or some similar effect, so the counters just sort of evaporate. You could of course cast it for some absurd amount, sacrifice it to a Culling Dias or something, and reap the Skullbriar goodness...but it seems like it might be a little win-more at that point. Also, it has no evasion of any kind for whatever that's worth.

[Anarky87]

It'll probably end up being less awesome then I thought. But the thought of casting it for a lot, saccing it to Jarad and have everyone lose life, plus pump Skullbriar tickles my interest. Or sac it to Greater Good for a mess of cards and the same pump. I'll give it a whirl when I find one.

[Davran]

I threw this list together last night...

General:
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave

Creatures:
Korozda Guildmage
Lotleth Troll
Nether Traitor
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Eternal Witness
Fleshbag Marauder
Glissa, the Traitor
Hunting Moa
Predator Ooze
Tempting Licid
Varolz, the Scar-striped
Brawn
Corpsejack Menace
Cytoplast Root-kin
Disciple of Bolas
Forgotten Ancient
Acidic Slime
Lord of Extinction
Shriekmaw
Vulturous Zombie
Necropolis Regent

Instant:
Crop Rotation
Noxious Revival
Savage Summoning
Abrupt Decay
Go for the Throat
Naturalize
Strength of the Tajuru
Beast Within
Putrefy
Momentous Fall

Sorcery:
Green Sun's Zenith
Reanimate
Demonic Tutor
Explore
Nature's Lore
Profane Command
Regrowth
Sylvan Scrying
Praetor's Grasp
Damnation
Harmonize
Blessings of Nature

Artifact:
Expedition Map
Infiltration Lens
Mana Vault
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Contagion Clasp
Culling Dais
Ring of Kalonia
Contagion Engine

Enchantment:
Rancor
Canopy Cover
Oversold Cemetery
Sylvan Library
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena
Doubling Season
Death's Presence

Planeswalkers:
Garruk Wildspeaker
Vraska the Unseen

Lands:
Bojuka Bog
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dryad Arbor
Gilt-leaf Palace
Grim Backwoods
Homeward Path
Llanowar Wastes
Miren, the Moaning Well
Oran-rief, the Vastwood
Overgrown Tomb
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Strip Mine
Tainted Wood
Twilight Mire
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Verdant Catacombs
Woodland Cemetery
Snow-covered Forest x10
Snow-covered Swamp x8

[Davran]

I've been tweaking this deck in preparation for some of the side event tables at the SCG Classic coming to my hometown this weekend. Here's the updated list:

Commander:
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave

Ramp:
Arbor Elf
Elves of Deep Shadow
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Search for Tomorrow
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Wild Growth

Tutors:
Crop Rotation
Vampiric Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Demonic Tutor
Beseech the Queen
Sylvan Scrying
Expedition Map

Card Draw/Selection:
Harmonize
Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena

Removal:
Fleshbag Marauder
Acidic Slime
Shriekmaw
Duplicant
Abrupt Decay
Go for the Throat
Beast Within
Dismember
Krosan Grip
Putrefy
Bramblecrush
Damnation
Vraska the Unseen

Skullbriar Utility:
Bramblewood Paragon
Hunting Moa
Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Corpsejack Menace
Forgotten Ancient
Immaculate Magistrate
Profane Command
Contagion Clasp
Fireshrieker
Ring of Kalonia
Tangle Wire
Rancor
Canopy Cover
Doubling Season

Recursion:
Eternal Witness
Reanimate
Regrowth
Animate Dead
Crucible of Worlds

Misc. Utility:
Lotleth Troll
Scavenging Ooze
Ant Queen
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Momentous Fall
Skullclamp
Culling Dais
Lightning Greaves
Garruk Wildspeaker

Lands:
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dryad Arbor
Gilt-leaf Palace
Homeward Path
Llanowar Wastes
Overgrown Tomb
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Strip Mine
Tainted Wood
Twilight Mire
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Verdant Catacombs
Wasteland
Woodland Cemetery
Yavimaya Hollow
Forest x 12
Swamp x 8

The general idea is to cast a turn 2 Skullbriar and go to town on whomever has the weakest board position or is playing the strongest general. From there, there's plenty of cheap removal and sources of evasion to keep up the beats long enough to get to 21 commander damage.

I've tried to skew the ramp options to cards that come down on turn 1 in order to maximize a turn 2 Skullbriar. This also maximizes my ability to re-cast him on turn 3 if he eats removal or some sort of flash blocker. It's also worth noting that most of the 1 drop mana dorks are elves for Immaculate Magistrate, they make perfect fodder for Skullclamp, and they all give a +1/+1 counter to Skullbriar with a Varolz, the Scar-Striped in play.

Should the Skullbriar plan go sour, Kokusho, the Evening Star + Sac Outlet + Recursion is the backup plan.

Any suggestions for tightening up the list would be appreciated...I'd love to farm some vendor credits for cube/EDH pimp purposes.

[Davran]

Made a couple changes:

- Treasured Find, + Doubling Season

I figured I would give Doubling Season a shot since it has a lot of potential when played early off of some ramp. I had originally excluded it as a win-more effect, but Skullbriar hasn't been growing as fast as I would like in testing.

- Reassembling Skeleton, + Ant Queen

It seemed like I needed some sort of mana sink, so in comes the Ant Queen. Despite the initial investment being a little higher, it does produce Skullclamp fodder for the same price as Skeleton while also having the potential to just churn out chump blockers to slow my opponents down.

[Davran]

Traded in a big pile of bulk for a Vampiric Tutor...so:

- Noxious Revival, + Vampiric Tutor

I'm also considering finding room for Fireshrieker as a way to speed up the Skullbriar clock. The most likely cut is Savage Summoning.

[Davran]

Made a couple of updates:

- Savage Summoning, + Fireshrieker

As it turns out, Savage Summoning doesn't really do anything, like, ever. Fireshrieker might not do anything either...but at least I can live the dream of double Skullbriar triggers every once in a while.

- Infiltration Lens, + Tangle Wire

Infiltration Lens is best described as "cute", especially when you're playing against good magic players who will happily trade a couple of cards to prevent themselves from losing to a hasty zombie. I'm not entirely sure why I overlooked Tangle Wire when I first built the deck...

[Davran]

Out:
Ring of Kalonia
Momentous Fall

In:
Whispersilk Cloak
Deglamer

Ring of Kalonia is way too slow to actually matter, especially because it never survives until my next upkeep. I'm hoping that Whispersilk Cloak will fly a little further under the radar. Another alternative is Trailblazer's Boots which may actually be better because they are cheaper. Also, it's worth noting that shroud is somewhat problematic with all of the other counter generating effects in the deck.

Deglamer is coming in as a nod to all of the indestructible general/enchantment business we're sure to see with the release of Theros. I'm expecting the red god to be pretty popular, at least for a while, so this should help us deal with it. Momentous Fall sits in my hand more often than not, so it seemed like an easy cut.

I updated the OP with the most recent list since this is no longer a Brainstorming thread.

[Davran]

Let's talk Theros changes.

There are only a couple cards worth considering for the list:

1. Hero's Downfall. Murder is one mana too expensive for a deck like this one that wants efficient answers...but destroying a planeswalker at instant speed might be worth the extra mana. Of course this doesn't prevent the first activation of the planeswalker, and depending on the walker that may be enough (looking at you, Karn). The most likely swap would be for Bramblecrush, but Hero's Downfall isn't nearly as versatile. I think this one will ride the pine for a while.

2. Reaper of the Wilds has a lot of potential. A 4/5 for 4 is already slightly above the curve, and the activated abilities further push it ahead of the competition. In reality, this is more like a 6 drop since you'll want to have hexproof mana up when you cast it more often than not. That said, it doesn't really have any synergy with the rest of the deck beyond the occasional scry trigger from a random blocker.

3. Read the Bones. Finally, something worth actually considering! This fills the same role as Harmonize in the deck. It draws one less card for one less mana and 2 life, but the scry function helps to filter that draw a little better. It also can help to bottom a couple of crap cards being bounced around by Sylvan Library and/or Sensei's Divining Top. Overall, I thin it will be more useful than Harmonize, so I'll be making the swap.

4. Rescue from the Underworld is worth mentioning simply because of the flavor and the instant speed. I'm sure it will do some good work in the format, but it's not really for this deck.

5. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is mostly a "fixed" Cabal Coffers. Since Coffers didn't make the list, it's conditional version won't either. Cute card for all of the mono-colored decks out there though...

In summation:

- Harmonize, + Read the Bones

[Davran]

Played a bunch of games in between rounds at the pre-release this weekend, and the deck performed pretty well. Turns out that a turn 3 Tangle Wire is pretty brutal in this format...especially when you've spent your first and second turns slamming a Rakdos Carnarium and are getting beaten down by a hasty zombie elemental.

A couple more changes:

Out:
Reanimate
Animate Dead

In:
Phyrexian Reclamation
Champion of Lambholt

The only worthwhile reanimation targets in the deck are Ant Queen and Kokusho. At 5 and 6 life, respectively, the one-shot reanimation effects simply weren't cutting it, even if they do return the creature directly to play. I'm hoping that the switch to Phyrexian Reclamation will allow me to reanimate less valuable targets where necessary without worrying about "wasting" one of my reanimation spells. Also, this frees up some room for another card.

Champion of Lambholt seems like it could be quite strong in the deck...although it might warrant another token producer to take it over the top. Further, it's a warrior...so it will interact meaningfully with Bramblewood Paragon.

[Elias]

You might want to play Lotus Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide to enable the turn one Skullbriar.

[Davran]

You might want to play Lotus Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide to enable the turn one Skullbriar.

The problem with these is that while they do enable the turn 1 Skullbriar, they're absolutely abysmal as top decks later in the game. I think if I were going to go this route I would much rather have Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox since they stick around and at least provide mana more than once if drawn late.

That said, I'm still not convinced that the 1 extra damage is worth it because of the card disadvantage. If this were an Edric deck that was capable of drawing a whole pile of cards to replace these I would definitely agree with you. It's a little harder to refill my hand in these colors, which makes potentially dead draws and/or card disadvantage even worse than usual.

[Davran]

Made a couple more minor changes to the list in the OP:

Out:
Hunting Moa
Bramblecrush

In:
Imperious Perfect
Maelstrom Pulse

I've been considering Imperious Perfect since I first put the list together for a number of reasons. It acts as a lord for all of the ramp dorks, it's an elf that makes elves for Immaculate Magistrate, it makes warrior tokens that work with Bramblewood Paragon, and it can spit out Skullclamp fodder/chump blockers. Hunting Moa was cute, but ultimately pretty vanilla. The elf should be much more valuable in the long run.

Maelstrom Pulse is simply a better Bramblecrush. Nothing to see here.

[TsumiBand]

I picked up one of these buggers last night.

I think I thought there were a lot more counter-bestowing things than there actually are in BG, because my best Gatherer-Fu left me with the distinct impression that unfortunately, this is guy in an okay tribe (Zombies) but in funny colors to really exploit it, and that there are not nearly as many permanent counters as I thought there were.

There are a few cards/ideas I would like to brainstorm over:

Bounty of the Hunt - I'm 94% certain that if Skullbriar is removed from play (i.e., sacrificed back to the command zone) before the delayed trigger, the counters should be permanent, correct? So while combat 'gotchas' are probably not the bestest way to go and I'd need to definitely have a sac outlet for the bastard, free spells are free (unless they cost 5).

Soul's Might - a slightly easier 4G than BotH's 3GG, and has a potentially much higher effect with no need for a sac outlet. Especially if the commander comes down early, it's hard to imagine this being strictly worse than Bounty of the Hunt.

Opal Palace - this thing from the new Commander set seems really, really solid with Skullbriar (and several other commanders for various reasons). As I understand it, the effect should work even from the first casting, so the gain from this card stands to be pretty substantial in both long and short games.

Renegade Krasis - evolve all the things. Seems real good.

Spikes, in general - most Spikes like Spike Feeder are okay-ish on their own, and in this kind of deck they are more like weird Modular creatures than anything. But they also look really awkward and in a world of Fatty McFattyTrons seem pretty lackluster. I've seen a couple lists with them but honestly they seem very slow.

Counters vs. Auras/Equipments - it kind of seems like it's better to not harp on things like Doubling Season / Soul's Might / whatever-else gives counters to things, and instead just kind of go with the OG approach and treat the counters like a nice side-effect. It's not like tuck and bounce don't exist pretty much everywhere, so if you fail in your mission to keep Skullbriar in friendly game zones, it seems like going with the Fat Pants plan is just as "voltronic" as trying to load him up with counters, and it would also work fairly well with whatever other creatures you plan on playing. Also, for all their problems, Auras are still more cost-effective than Equipment and counter-placement, and honestly in a format where your general is recursive and commander damage is immutable, I think a lot of the problems with Auras are somewhat mitigated.

Skullbriar's actual wording - "Counters remain on Skullbriar as it moves to any zone…" Apart from the odd chance that it gets burdened with an overabundance of -1/-1 counters from, like, Black Sun's Zenith or something, this would also include things like…gold counters, charge counters, etc etc etc. I'm really not entirely sure at *this* very moment if there are any other counters worth sticking to this guy?? It seems like a fairly outside chance.


I'll be experimenting with lists here in a minute, but these were my initial thoughts on Skullbriar… have any of you continued to play with this guy in recent months? Does goofy Theros offer anything to this deck? If I'm on the right track with Auras, it almost (almost) seems like this deck would benefit from the bare minimum of playable Bestow guys.

[Davran]

Bounty of the Hunt - I'm 94% certain that if Skullbriar is removed from play (i.e., sacrificed back to the command zone) before the delayed trigger, the counters should be permanent, correct? So while combat 'gotchas' are probably not the bestest way to go and I'd need to definitely have a sac outlet for the bastard, free spells are free (unless they cost 5).

Judge! I think the delayed trigger would fail if Skullbriar was no longer in play. But, it seems like a lot of work for three counters. Regardless, you're going to want a sac outlet or two...Black Sun's Zenith is kind of a big deal for this deck to dodge.


Soul's Might - a slightly easier 4G than BotH's 3GG, and has a potentially much higher effect with no need for a sac outlet. Especially if the commander comes down early, it's hard to imagine this being strictly worse than Bounty of the Hunt.

This one gets better as Skullbriar gets bigger, which is nice. I have to agree that it seems more "worth it" than Bounty of the Hunt.


Opal Palace - this thing from the new Commander set seems really, really solid with Skullbriar (and several other commanders for various reasons). As I understand it, the effect should work even from the first casting, so the gain from this card stands to be pretty substantial in both long and short games.

Definitely belongs in here. If ever there was a commander that wanted this card, it's Skullbriar. Prime Speaker Zegana is another...


Renegade Krasis - evolve all the things. Seems real good.

I didn't include this guy because the majority of my creatures don't actually cause him to evolve. If your deck is different, he could be pretty decent. On the whole though, it's probably worse than, say, Forgotten Ancient.


Spikes, in general - most Spikes like Spike Feeder are okay-ish on their own, and in this kind of deck they are more like weird Modular creatures than anything. But they also look really awkward and in a world of Fatty McFattyTrons seem pretty lackluster. I've seen a couple lists with them but honestly they seem very slow.

Some of the spikes could be good here...like Spike Weaver and Spike Feeder. If anything, all of the stuff that grants +1/+1 counters can turn them into value engines.


Counters vs. Auras/Equipments - it kind of seems like it's better to not harp on things like Doubling Season / Soul's Might / whatever-else gives counters to things, and instead just kind of go with the OG approach and treat the counters like a nice side-effect. It's not like tuck and bounce don't exist pretty much everywhere, so if you fail in your mission to keep Skullbriar in friendly game zones, it seems like going with the Fat Pants plan is just as "voltronic" as trying to load him up with counters, and it would also work fairly well with whatever other creatures you plan on playing. Also, for all their problems, Auras are still more cost-effective than Equipment and counter-placement, and honestly in a format where your general is recursive and commander damage is immutable, I think a lot of the problems with Auras are somewhat mitigated.

The thing about the auras is that most of them trigger on upkeep or whatever...and that sort of thing always blows up in my face. Personally, I think the only Auras the deck really wants are things like Rancor, Canopy Cover, and maybe Aspect of the Mongoose. Not only to they "beat" the drawback of auras in general, but they also grant protection/evasion which Skullbriar desperately needs.


Skullbriar's actual wording - "Counters remain on Skullbriar as it moves to any zone…" Apart from the odd chance that it gets burdened with an overabundance of -1/-1 counters from, like, Black Sun's Zenith or something, this would also include things like…gold counters, charge counters, etc etc etc. I'm really not entirely sure at *this* very moment if there are any other counters worth sticking to this guy?? It seems like a fairly outside chance.

Yeah, he'll keep whatever you give him. A fate counter is a rather useful one to have thanks to Oblivion Stone existing.



I'll be experimenting with lists here in a minute, but these were my initial thoughts on Skullbriar… have any of you continued to play with this guy in recent months? Does goofy Theros offer anything to this deck? If I'm on the right track with Auras, it almost (almost) seems like this deck would benefit from the bare minimum of playable Bestow guys.

I took the deck apart a while ago...I have ADD when it comes to EDH decks. I might put it back together though if the mood strikes me. I think the only thing I added from Theros was Read the Bones...although Bow of Nylea does add a counter as one of its modes.

[TsumiBand]

There's probably some Auras with Totem Armor that Skullbriar can leverage against. I *thiiiink* (but not sure) that Totem Armor's replacement effect trumps any and all destroy effects, so even under a "can't be regenerated" one like good old-fashioned [cards]Wrath of God[cards] the dude can hang out after losing only his Donkey Umbra, or whatever he's wearing. I think.

[FTW]

Any way you can splash white for Gaddock Teeg and Nevermore on BSZ? That card just wrecks your whole gameplan, forever. Maybe you can argue that skullbriar is pretty fly for a white guy? IDK. Might take some work.

Otherwise I recommend finding some answer to prevent that card from ever resolving. Maybe even Praetor's Grasp-type effects.

[TsumiBand]

Any way you can splash white for Gaddock Teeg and Nevermore on BSZ? That card just wrecks your whole gameplan, forever. Maybe you can argue that skullbriar is pretty fly for a white guy? IDK. Might take some work.

Otherwise I recommend finding some answer to prevent that card from ever resolving. Maybe even Praetor's Grasp-type effects.

The obvious answer is Lifeforce, since Black has few ways to deal with Enchantments.

But no yeah, I was thinking about BSZ today, and man that would be shitty. Melira, Sylvok Outcast would be a thing against that as well, I suppose? :/

I'm guessing the better answer is to either get the counter count to dumb-ass levels before BSZ, or load up on ways to sac your commander instead of letting it hang around and feel the wrath of anticounters.

In the same-but-different category; Maze of Ith makes a sad panda. Caustic Rain? :(

[Davran]

There's probably some Auras with Totem Armor that Skullbriar can leverage against. I *thiiiink* (but not sure) that Totem Armor's replacement effect trumps any and all destroy effects, so even under a "can't be regenerated" one like good old-fashioned Wrath of God[cards] the dude can hang out after losing only his Donkey Umbra, or whatever he's wearing. I think.

Here's the reminder text for totem armor: "If enchanted creature would be destroyed, instead remove all damage from it and destroy this Aura." It doesn't say anything about regeneration, so in my mind Wrath of God and friends only succeed in blowing up your Donkey Umbra. If they go Wrath --> Damnation or something you're totally boned, but the totem armor will take the first wrath right on the chin for you.


Any way you can splash white for [cards]Gaddock Teeg and Nevermore on BSZ? That card just wrecks your whole gameplan, forever. Maybe you can argue that skullbriar is pretty fly for a white guy? IDK. Might take some work.

Otherwise I recommend finding some answer to prevent that card from ever resolving. Maybe even Praetor's Grasp-type effects.

To be honest, the best thing is to have some sacrifice outlets around. There's more than just BSZ that wrecks you - any kind of tuck or bounce also puts you back to square 1. High Market, Ashnod's Altar, Varolz...stuff like that.


The obvious answer is Lifeforce, since Black has few ways to deal with Enchantments.

But no yeah, I was thinking about BSZ today, and man that would be shitty. Melira, Sylvok Outcast would be a thing against that as well, I suppose? :/

I'm guessing the better answer is to either get the counter count to dumb-ass levels before BSZ, or load up on ways to sac your commander instead of letting it hang around and feel the wrath of anticounters.

In the same-but-different category; Maze of Ith makes a sad panda. Caustic Rain? :(

Lifeforce is some tech for sure if you have someone playing mono-black in your meta. Melira is cute too if you're afraid you're going to see BSZ often.

As for Maze of Ith, yeah. It can be a pain. I was packing Wasteland and Strip Mine plus Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map and Crop Rotation to find them. Crucible too. Acidic Slime is a good man too, although it can take a little while to come down. You could also run Ghost Quarter (a basic is better than Maze) and Tectonic Edge. Or, just give Skullbriar some boots, or a little Canopy Cover.

[TsumiBand]

Lifeforce is some tech for sure if you have someone playing mono-black in your meta. Melira is cute too if you're afraid you're going to see BSZ often.

Yeah I had my sarcastic hat on. Lifeforce is not tech and Melira is indeed "just cute".


To be honest, the best thing is to have some sacrifice outlets around. There's more than just BSZ that wrecks you - any kind of tuck or bounce also puts you back to square 1. High Market, Ashnod's Altar, Varolz...stuff like that.
…
As for Maze of Ith, yeah. It can be a pain. I was packing Wasteland and Strip Mine plus Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map and Crop Rotation to find them. Crucible too. Acidic Slime is a good man too, although it can take a little while to come down. You could also run Ghost Quarter (a basic is better than Maze) and Tectonic Edge. Or, just give Skullbriar some boots, or a little [cards]Canopy Cover.

Ok cool, I figured that'd be the good approach to both scenarios.

Haha I forgot about Boooooooots. I've been playing so much EDH where Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots would just be an afterthought that I hadn't even considered them, hurp. Gotta have Booooooooots

[FTW]

Yeah I had my sarcastic hat on. Lifeforce is not tech and Melira is indeed "just cute".


Melira is far from "just cute". Thanks for reminding me about her! When I built a Skullbriar prototype (more Voltrony with a full equipment package - all 5 Swords, Jitte, Greaves-- since lets be real, your plan A is to swing into the redzone every single turn), I was very concerned about BSZ. Unlike the tuck effects and bounce, BSZ dodges hexproof (green's easiest form of protection) and lasts FOREVER... you can pretty much never ever do anything with Skullbriar for the rest of the game as his -1/-1 body dies as a SBE before you can bounce it or move new counters on. I had to auto-concede one of my earliest matches with it because, being all Voltrony, I really had no shot of winning without him.

Anyway, sac effects were one way to save him. Another was Melira. Before you know it, I realized I was one piece away from having Melira combo. 2/3 pieces of Melira combo are things that protect Skullbriar from losing, so why not? It also gave me an alternate win condition in case Skullbriar got pwned. And then I added more creature tutors to enable the combo, which in turn helped me deal with tuck effects on Skullbriar. Basically, adding Melira combo also added tons of protection for plan A. So why not?

Anyway, yeah, so Melira combo. You can't play Finks or Redcap, but you can run:


Carrion Feeder
Viscera Seer
Bloodthrone Vampire
Blood Artist
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Puppeteer Clique
Woodfall Primus
Rendclaw Trow
Birthing Pod
Green Sun's Zenith
Survival of the Fittest
Fauna Shaman
Chord of Calling
Worldly Tutor


etc..
It's not necessarily easy to assemble a winning combo from there (without Blood Artist, you can just blow up all their noncreature permanents or reanimate all their dead creatures and swing), but the plus side is that a big chunk of the pieces (Sac outlets, creature tutors, Melira) help your plan A.

Thoughts?

[TsumiBand]

I don't want to belabor the point, but I feel like if we're just talking about -1/-1 counter protection, IMHO there's a major point being missed.

The bad counters should fall off if Skullbriar goes from the battlefield to the graveyard and then into your hand, yeah? There are a fuck-billion cards that will do that in Green and Black, ranging from 'awful' to 'staple'. You're under no obligation to throw Skullbriar back into the command zone if it's a shitty thing to do after Black Sun's Zenith; any Regrowth effect will wipe the slate clean, and not only that but if you can reliably just recast the sucker, it won't have upped your commander re-cast tax.


Disentomb
Ghoulcaller's Chant
Phyrexian Reclamation
Death Denied
Disturbed Burial
Evolution Charm
Golgari Guildmage
Grim Discovery
Nature's Spiral
Oversold Cemetary
Oath of Ghouls
Regrowth
Revive
Soulless Revival
Treasured Find
Stitch Together
Down // Dirty
Eternal Witness
Lord of the Undead
Morbid Plunder
Reaping the Graves
Recollect
Elven Cache
Entomber Exarch
Woodland Guidance
Genesis
Restock
Praetor's Counsel


Not that there isn't merit in packing Melira Combo, but like...yeah. Treasured Find, Regrowth, Eternal Witness, Phyrexian Reclamation, Oath of Ghouls... if nothing else a BG decklist would at least start its life with most of those cards as an auto-include, ne? With lands like Rogue's Passage and/or Opal Palace potentially being in the deck, I'd be willing to try Grim Discovery. And that's just straight to-hand; there's things that are potentially riskier that send things to the top of your library like Reclaim, Noxious Revival, Unholy Grotto, Volrath's Stronghold...

I could be just off my rocker about the usefulness of letting Skullbriar hit the garbage like that, but really it feels like a BG deck is incidentally loaded for bear against that potential plan.

[Davran]

I don't want to belabor the point, but I feel like if we're just talking about -1/-1 counter protection, IMHO there's a major point being missed.

The bad counters should fall off if Skullbriar goes from the battlefield to the graveyard and then into your hand, yeah? There are a fuck-billion cards that will do that in Green and Black, ranging from 'awful' to 'staple'. You're under no obligation to throw Skullbriar back into the command zone if it's a shitty thing to do after Black Sun's Zenith; any Regrowth effect will wipe the slate clean, and not only that but if you can reliably just recast the sucker, it won't have upped your commander re-cast tax.


Disentomb
Ghoulcaller's Chant
Phyrexian Reclamation
Death Denied
Disturbed Burial
Evolution Charm
Golgari Guildmage
Grim Discovery
Nature's Spiral
Oversold Cemetary
Oath of Ghouls
Regrowth
Revive
Soulless Revival
Treasured Find
Stitch Together
Down // Dirty
Eternal Witness
Lord of the Undead
Morbid Plunder
Reaping the Graves
Recollect
Elven Cache
Entomber Exarch
Woodland Guidance
Genesis
Restock
Praetor's Counsel


Not that there isn't merit in packing Melira Combo, but like...yeah. Treasured Find, Regrowth, Eternal Witness, Phyrexian Reclamation, Oath of Ghouls... if nothing else a BG decklist would at least start its life with most of those cards as an auto-include, ne? With lands like Rogue's Passage and/or Opal Palace potentially being in the deck, I'd be willing to try Grim Discovery. And that's just straight to-hand; there's things that are potentially riskier that send things to the top of your library like Reclaim, Noxious Revival, Unholy Grotto, Volrath's Stronghold...

I could be just off my rocker about the usefulness of letting Skullbriar hit the garbage like that, but really it feels like a BG deck is incidentally loaded for bear against that potential plan.

I agree with this completely. The only time it gets shaky is if there's some sort of 1-2 punch of BSZ into Tormod's Crypt or something...but you can always just let them Crypt you, put Skullbriar in the command zone and start over again with state based effects dumping him into the yard.

Opal Palace actually helps out a bunch too since it counts the number of times he's been cast from the command zone. So even if you have no other outs you can just cast him until the bonus from Opal Palace cancels out the BSZ counters. Not exactly mana efficient or quick...but it will get there eventually. Also...aren't -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters like matter and anti-matter under the current rules? So if Skullbriar has -5/-5 or something and I Opal Palace him for +2/+2 (remember, the first time you cast him is #1), the next cast (+3/+3) should do the trick?

[TsumiBand]

I agree with this completely. The only time it gets shaky is if there's some sort of 1-2 punch of BSZ into Tormod's Crypt or something...but you can always just let them Crypt you, put Skullbriar in the command zone and start over again with state based effects dumping him into the yard.

Opal Palace actually helps out a bunch too since it counts the number of times he's been cast from the command zone. So even if you have no other outs you can just cast him until the bonus from Opal Palace cancels out the BSZ counters. Not exactly mana efficient or quick...but it will get there eventually. Also...aren't -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters like matter and anti-matter under the current rules? So if Skullbriar has -5/-5 or something and I Opal Palace him for +2/+2 (remember, the first time you cast him is #1), the next cast (+3/+3) should do the trick?

Yeah, +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other as a state-based action. Opal Palace would eventually bleed them right off though if it's a mighty Zenith that might prove to be prohibitively mana-intensive; and indeed if you're getting Crypted or something you can also just recast it from the command zone and let it toss itself in the trash, then Regrowth-reprint it back to your hand (and cast it for regular old BG, the way Gorlax intended).

Again none of this means Melira Combo shenanigans isn't a compelling idea for the deck, I'm just not certain that its use as anti-counter tech is as critical as was being stated.

I'm trying to think if there's a Dragon Fangs-like effect that would apply to the little bastard as well. There's those equipments that say "whenever a Rogue/Wizard/Soldier ETB you may attach -this- to -that-" but I don't think there are any for Zombie Elementals. Bugger that.

[Davran]

I'm trying to think if there's a Dragon Fangs-like effect that would apply to the little bastard as well. There's those equipments that say "whenever a Rogue/Wizard/Soldier ETB you may attach -this- to -that-" but I don't think there are any for Zombie Elementals. Bugger that.

The only "weird" equipment that I can think of is Blade of the Bloodchief. Sure, he's not a vampire...but it could still be decent? I think?