[Deck] Burn

[redmage]

The rough list I've been having the most success with is:

Looks pretty good. :thumbsup:



Incinerate:
Weakest card in the deck IMO.

IMO, it's a bit better than POP due to its 'guaranteed' damage (aka it's 'never dead'), and I think that, so far, it has rightfully earned its status, as a 'staple', in burn.



I play it over magma jet, considering that with magma jet a 3rd turn win is impossible and a 4th turn win is nearly impossible.

For that reason, and the above, (IMO) it seems that you're playing POP (or possibly the Baubles) over the 'Jets. This brings me to a question that I've been pondering.

Are Magma Jets really nescessary in 'Bauble Burn'?

I can see that they have a few synergies. How often do Bauble players find themselves scrying their Baubles away?

Often, I only play 3 'Jets (without Baubles); supplementing my draw/manipulation with 2 Browbeats. 'Jetless might be the fastest/'right' way to go with 'Bauble Burn'. IMO, Magma Jet shines as a 'Control' card (spot burning troublesome creatures, and setting up a 3rd turn land drop for Flamebreak), but 'Control' is the role that I don't want to be playing. However, I have yet to see a Baubleless build where I wouldn't want at least 3. Much like the way it sets up a 3rd turn Flamebreak; I often find myself pitching it, to Cave-In, while continuing the assault with my 'business spells'.



Flame Rift:
This card is key to burn's success IMO.

I agree; it's the only 'guaranteed' 4-for-2 that we have (barring Fireblast, but that's an entirely different beast).



Price of Progress:
Ehhh.. I believe in most metagames it'd be a 1R-4dmg on avg. There really isn't any other possible 1R-4 available anyway, and fork is only a 1R-4 if you draw a fireblast. If I ran fork I'd only run 1. Ankh of Mishra may be a good substitute here.

It's certainly a meta call. I can see it's strength, as an instant, when coupled with Bauble topdecks/draws. That's one of the things I really like about Dr Math's '2 Forks' (over 2 of his Flame Rifts). If he's holding a Fireblast and topdecks a Bauble; I'd likely rather pop it, and go off during the opponents upkeep by drawing a Fork, than to wait untill my next turn and cast a Flame Rift (or any other Sorcery). The more instants you run, the stronger/faster your 'Bauble engine' becomes.



With Magma Jet and a low 4dmg burn count, I rarely get turn 4 wins and always miss them by 1-2pts of dmg.

In a more 'Controlish' build that I had (4 Fanatic, 4 Magma Jet, 4 Flamebreak); +2 Barbarian Ring, and -2 Mountains helped to alleviate that issue. I'm not sure if that'd be the 'right' call with Baubles, but it's an option if you ever choose to go back to testing/using the 'Jets.



I hope you guys like my list and understand my reasoning behind my choices.

Looks good if your meta allows it.



... and not yell at me for an entire 2 pages about how Cave-In is better then Flamebreak, lol....

Nobody's yelling. :P lol

Just discussing. :D


Oh, and I need help with making a sideboard.

What are you facing the most? Which matches are you looking for help against?

[BlinX]

Looks pretty good. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the thumbs up ^_^.


IMO, it's a bit better than POP due to its 'guaranteed' damage (aka it's 'never dead'), and I think that, so far, it has rightfully earned its status, as a 'staple', in burn.
I agree with your opinion, Incinerate is better than PoP because of its 'guaranteed' dmg. So, yes PoP would be the card I play over Magma Jet. I play PoP instead of another 1R-3 (chain of plasma) because burn desperately needs another 1R-4. With my metagame PoP most often avg's 1R-4, but it's not guaranteed and I haven't found a descent replacement for it yet. Ankh of Mishra seems to be a subpar solution, and anything less then 1R-4 will result in 18-19 dmg by turn 4.


Are Magma Jets really nescessary in 'Bauble Burn'?
IMO Magma Jets aren't really needed in Bauble Burn. Baubles already make the deck more consistent, and since I run 18mts over the minimal 17 I often play 3mts. Plus, My list is trying to use as many 1R-4dmg spells as possible, so I don't need Magma Jets to pass my subpar burn to the bottom. With 3 flamebreaks and basically a 52 card list I seem to draw 1 flamebreak often enough to use it, but not to screw me over. Also, baubles are only dead on a turn 4 draw, and if you increase your instant count you'll be good. I think Magma Jet will only slow down Bauble Burn, but PoP isn't the best card either.


I agree; it's the only 'guaranteed' 4-for-2 that we have (barring Fireblast, but that's an entirely different beast).
I love Flame Rift ^_^.


It's certainly a meta call. I can see it's strength, as an instant, when coupled with Bauble topdecks/draws. That's one of the things I really like about Dr Math's '2 Forks' (over 2 of his Flame Rifts). If he's holding a Fireblast and topdecks a Bauble; I'd likely rather pop it, and go off during the opponents upkeep by drawing a Fork, than to wait untill my next turn and cast a Flame Rift (or any other Sorcery). The more instants you run, the stronger/faster your 'Bauble engine' becomes.
Price of Progress is nice with its instant capability, but it's still not a for sure 1R-4. Maybe there are better cards to play in this slot, suggestions?



What are you facing the most? Which matches are you looking for help against?
I'm actually pretty new to legacy. I've chose to start with burn, since it seems easy/cheap/and I.. Love burn, duh?.. So anyway, most of my friends play standard/extended/janky casual lists, but some play legacy aswell. I'm not expecting to play Burn often against my friends, but more likely in a card shop tourny. Control seems to be the favorite in my area, so a rough estimate would be 55% control/ 35% aggro/ 10% Combo. I know there's a goblin deck, and my friends play some lifegain oriented decks, but thats about it. Not sure if that helps :S.

Thank you.

[redmage]

I'm not arguing about Cave-In, I'm just saying he misplayed.

He may have, it depends on whether or not he had the Red source + a Cheap drop for his last 2 cards.



Btw, here the play is to take out his Warchief, suspending the other Rift Bolt, leaving Bolt-mana open in case you need to react.

While I completely agree with (and did) the rest; I'm unsure if Warchief is the right target for Rift Bolt #1.

Here's why I chose Piledriver:

The opponent had: 2 tapped Mts, Lackey, Warchief, and 2 Piledrivers in play; along with 2 cards in hand.

I had: 1 Mt in play, Rift Bolt on the stack, and a hand of: L. Bolt, Flamebreak, Browbeat, Fireblast, Rift Bolt, and a Mt.

I'm obviously playing my 2nd Mt, suspending Rift Bolt #2 with it, and leaving the 1st Mt. open, for L. Bolt, in case I need to react; but as to the currently un-suspending Bolt...

Turn 2
[Opponent:] Yadda, yadda.

[Me:] Rift Bolt...
I'm at 19, and he's already got 17 on the table...

If I hit the Piledriver; he's got a Lackey, Piledriver, and a Warchief left in play. They can swing for 8 (as is), on his turn 3, which leaves me at 11. Here, I may be able to afford an EOT L. Bolt to his dome. Add my hopefully upcoming Flamebreak, and my 3rd turn un-suspending Rift Bolt to the mix; and I'm down to 8 life and 3 cards in hand; while the opponent is now at 11 life, a 'clean' board (2 Mt + 1 Wasteland), and 2 cards in hand (Warchief + ?). On turn 4 I'll have 3 Mts in play; and a 'mystery draw', Browbeat, and 2 Fireblasts in hand to try and deal out 11 damage (a possible turn 4 win).

On the other hand; leaving Lackey + Warchief alive (along with Piledriver #2) tempts him to further 'over-commit' (into my hopefully upcoming Flamebreak). He's only got 2 cards in hand; so a Flamebreak may send him into topdecking if he over-commits to the board any further. If he drops something 'severe'; I can always L. Bolt the 'Driver (to save more time/life), the Warchief (to prevent almost any 'new drop's' hasted-attack/Piledriver-pumping), or the new 'severe' threat.

I think that this 'L. Bolt flexability' optimizes my chances for an early win, but I could be wrong.

So... what if I Rift Bolt the Warchief instead?

If I hit the Warchief; he's got a Lackey and 2 Piledrivers left in play. They can swing for 11 (as is), on his 3rd turn, which would leave me at 8. Add my hopefully upcoming 3rd turn Flamebreak to the mix, and I'm down to 5, so I'll need to L. Bolt a Piledriver this turn, regardless of whether or not he drops another goblin, because (IMO) 5 life is just too risky. It's a Fanatic ping away from drawing 'dead' Flame Rifts, and a hasted Warchief (or Ringleader) attack away from drawing 'dead' Flamebreaks and Flame Rifts. I can't stop a Fanatic ping, and I may not be able to effectively/efficiently stop a Warchief (or Ringleader) on his turn 4, so I must L. Bolt a Piledriver on his 3rd turn.

Now... am I taking just 4 damage from a Lackey + 'Driver #2 alone, or did he drop his 2nd Warchief to swing with as well? Was his 3rd turn 'mystery card' a Matron for Ringleader instead; will one, or the other, be his 4th turn draw? He's likely taking 3-to-the-dome, from my turn-3-upkeep Rift Bolt, leaving him at 17; so I'm staring at Flamebreak, Browbeat, and 2 Fireblasts in hand; with (luckily) 3 Mountains in play.

Do I Flamebreak now, if it's just his Lackey and Piledriver #2, or do I chance a Browbeat while he's still at 17 life? I think I'd have to Flamebreak; taking him to 14, and me to either 15 or 11. This leads to me entering my 4th turn with 3 Mts in play (and with a 'mystery draw', Browbeat, and 2 Fireblasts in hand) to try and deal out 14 damage. No matter what the 'mystery draw' is; I'm going on into turn 5. This scenerio leaves me in a pretty similar situation to the 2nd "flexible L. Bolt" example (where I'd choose to L Bolt a Goblin), except that I've cut out the flexability, and locked myself into a turn 5 win at the soonest.



And yea, you had to spend a burn-spell on his creature, but you're still the candidate to win.

Possibly, but I think that Goblin's 'inevitability' (through the Matron/Ringleader engine) would eventually catch up with me, and the longer the the game drags out; the less comfortable I feel.

[Iranon]

Price of Progress and Fork are our best chances of dealing a lot of damage at instant speed for 2; there is nothing better available - good choices for Bauble Burn.

While Incinerate is decent, it is blatant filler and lacks the raw efficiency of the 1-for-3s. Flame Rift's drawbacks also add up, but I would keep those in over Incinerate if you are certain about Cave-In. Here's the reason:
2 Bolts, 2 2-for-4s, fireblast and cave-in is a possible turn 3 kill on the draw. If your opponent plays a few fetch lands, Cave-In might allow several other fast kills, and a similar scenario is far more likely on turn 4. you really need to maximise the number of 4+ damage spells to make good use of it though. I'm thinking along the lines of 4 Flame Rfit, 4 Price of Progress, 2 Fork.




@ Tacosnape:
If you run Baubles in addition to Chrome Mox... have you tested out Grapeshot? The card can be very amusing, especially against Aggro/Control which tend to be rough match-ups.
And if there is a man out there able to build and play a variant that can support Baubles, Moxen and Petals without screwing itself too badly, it's probably you!

[redmage]

Price of Progress and Fork are our best chances of dealing a lot of damage at instant speed for 2; there is nothing better available - good choices for Bauble Burn.

They are definitely good choices if your meta permits.



While Incinerate is decent, it is blatant filler and lacks the raw efficiency of the 1-for-3s.

I'd have to agree that it lacks the raw efficiency of the 1-for-3s, but I think it's better than just a "decent". This is why I said, "IMO, it's a bit better than POP due to its 'guaranteed' damage (aka it's 'never dead'), and I think that, so far, it has rightfully earned its status, as a 'staple', in burn".

Sure, I'd love another 'guaranteed' 4-for-2, or better yet, another 'guaranteed' 3-for-1 "Bolt" (we have another 'conditional' one with Spark Elemental), but until then; I think that Incinerate is a 'premium-choice'/'staple' in the deck, and I'd take Incinerate, over 'Sparky', most any day.



Flame Rift's drawbacks also add up, but I would keep those in over Incinerate if you are certain about Cave-In.

I dont think it's really a "Flame Rift vs Incinerate" debate. I think, currently, that they're both 'staples' in the deck.



Here's the reason:
2 Bolts, 2 2-for-4s, fireblast and cave-in is a possible turn 3 kill on the draw. If your opponent plays a few fetch lands, Cave-In might allow several other fast kills, and a similar scenario is far more likely on turn 4.

You bring up a good point.

Cave-In aside (it opens up all sorts of 'fun tricks', but not everyone runs it); If your opponent pops one fetch land, in the first 3-4 turns, a 'guaranteed' 3-for-2 becomes 'just as fast' as a 4-for-2 to your goldfish.

If, in your meta, opponents play/fetch basics more often (in the early turns), then I'd rather have a Fork, Chain of Plasma, or Thunderbolt (assuming Incinerate is already in the deck).

If they're playing/fetching more non-basics, in the early turns, PoP is the way to go.

If I were running BlinX's list in my meta; I'd likely switch "4 Flame Rift, 3 Price of Progress" to "3 Flame Rift, 2 Price of Progress, and 2 Fork (one in place of each)". Then if further tweaking were necessary; I'd look to replace either the 2nd PoP, or 2nd Fork, with a singleton Chain of plasma/Thunderbolt (to act as Incinerate #5).



I'm thinking along the lines of 4 Flame Rfit, 4 Price of Progress, 2 Fork.

That could 'very well be' the right set-up for your meta. If you see 2+ non-basics, in the first 3-4 turns, regularly enough; it looks quite deadly. :D

@BlinX



I play PoP instead of another 1R-3 (chain of plasma) because burn desperately needs another 1R-4. With my metagame PoP most often avg's 1R-4, but it's not guaranteed and I haven't found a descent replacement for it yet. Ankh of Mishra seems to be a subpar solution, and anything less then 1R-4 will result in 18-19 dmg by turn 4.

Personally, I'm not too worried about 18-19 damage. In my meta; I can usually count on at least 1 Fetch' in the first 3-4 turns (by my opponents), and I don't run Baubles so I trust my topdecks a bit more (if/when they're down to 2, or 1, life).

I agree with Ankh feeling subpar. It's better in the early game, and worse later; not a trait I look for in a 1-to-3-of card. Also, in 'Bauble burn", it would really tempt me to splash a couple Great Furnaces & Shrapnel Blasts (and I'm not so sure that 'that's the right way to go'. lol).

If (in your metagame) PoP most often avg's 1R-4, then it's probably the 'right' call. Personally, I run a 1-2 PoP, MD, in my meta. I don't necessarily want it early, but it's often a very strong mid-to-late game card/topdeck around here.



IMO Magma Jets aren't really needed in Bauble Burn. My list is trying to use as many 1R-4dmg spells as possible, so I don't need Magma Jets to pass my subpar burn to the bottom.

True, they may not be needed (and it's good that you regularly hit 3 Land with the Baubles), but (as a non-Bauble player) I'd be less worried about passing "subpar burn to the bottom", then I would be about passing down Baubles or excess land.



Also, baubles are only dead on a turn 4 draw...

Not necessarily; I can see situations where a third turn 'topdecked Bauble' could stop a possible 3rd turn win (specifically, anywhere you'd need the 3rd turn Mt instead). Also, if you've been forced in to the Control role (spending business spells on creaures); it can be a bad 5th+ turn topdeck if your hand is now empty.



...and if you increase your instant count you'll be good.

There's the real clincher (and why I havn't made the switch, to Baubles, yet).

If we use your list as an example (you've basically swapped PoP for 'Jet, both "instants", so it holds true for most):

Instants: 15
(4 L. Bolt, 4 Incinerate, 4 Fireblast, 3 PoP/Magma Jet)

Sorcery speed plays: 45
(Land, Baubles, and Sorceries)

All things even; you've got, roughly, a 1-in-4 chance of getting something 'immediately playable' with a Bauble pop. Otherwise, it's just staggered/postponed your play for a turn. While it's true that this effect is somewhat mitigated by having other cards in hand (aka, having alternative plays so that you can just 'ignore' the 'missing' card/s for a turn); the smaller your hand gets, the worse your baubbles become. Even if you could find a way to push the instant count up to 20; you've still only got, roughly, a 1-in-3 chance to hit one. This is why I still prefer having 'threats' over Baubles. That said; many people do find that Baubles, in their builds, can help to enable their turn 4 consistancy, and I can't argue with that. :thumbsup:



I think Magma Jet will only slow down Bauble Burn, but PoP isn't the best card either.

'Jet might slow it down. You've got a pretty solid burn package so I think the question becomes; "how badly do you need to scrye away Baubles and 'excess lands'?". PoP is solid in the right meta, but it's a card that I don't want more than 1-2 of, MD, unless I know what I'm facing (personal preference in my Baubleless build).



Price of Progress is nice with its instant capability, but it's still not a for sure 1R-4. Maybe there are better cards to play in this slot, suggestions?

Other 'conditional' 4-for-2s (Ankh, Pillar, and Fork) have their pros and cons as well, and only Fork is an instant. I already mentioned, above, some tweaks that I might make/test, and it's still true that, "If your opponent pops one fetch land, in the first 3-4 turns, a 'guaranteed' 3-for-2 becomes 'just as fast' as a 4-for-2 to your goldfish."; so (in the right meta) a "5th Incinerate" (via Chain of Plasma, or Thunderbolt) can be a solid option as well.



Control seems to be the favorite in my area, so a rough estimate would be 55% control/ 35% aggro/ 10% Combo. I know there's a goblin deck, and my friends play some lifegain oriented decks, but thats about it. Not sure if that helps :S.

My first instinct tells me to say "just race it". lol

I'd say; first prepare for what 'destroys' you. If you think you're gonna face Chalice@1; I like Shattering Spree. I like Pithing Needles & Flaring Pain vs. things like C.O.P./R.O.P. Red (Culling Scales can be a versatile answer as well). Worship & Sphere of Law don't appreciate it when Anarchy is cast. Try to anticipate what 'hate' (if any) you're likely to see at any given event.

Vs. Control there's always options like R.E.B./Pyroblast, Burnout, and Overmaster; Sirocco can really "make 'em cry" as well.

Vs. a lot of aggro you should be able to race it. If not, there's plenty of supplemental 'sweepers' to choose from.

Vs. Combo, it depends on what kind. Your Control 'hate' should help vs. Solidarity. Tormod's Crypt can be pretty handy for others (it's also decent vs Threshold to 'set up' a Flamebrak if/when facing 'grown' Werebears). Though primarily; it's a race when facing combo.

Lifegain can be Burn's ultimate nemesis though. Sulfuric Vortex can be dangerous (when combined with a lot of other 'self burn'), but it's a 'clock' in itself, and it stops lifegain cold. Flames of the Blood Hand would probably be my next choice.



Thank you.

You're welcome. :D

I hope you found some of the options/suggestions useful. :thumbsup:

[Dee]

hey,

i just joined this forum.. just want to ask how browbeat does in this deck? what about shrapnel blast? since we have 8 artifacts in the baubles already? ball lightning? and what about that 2cc timewalk red had in visions?

Welcome to The Source. Please be aware that capitalization and proper grammar are requirements on these boards. Please use them when posting in the future. Thanks. - Zilla

[Iranon]

Browbeat is playable but no no-brainer. 5 points of damage or ~6 points worth of business for 3 isn't bad. However, drawing 2 3-mana spells will slow you down regardless how efficient they are, this is worth with Browbeat because you don't get to deal the damage immediately and it doesn't alter the gamestate in a fundamental way to justify the casting cost. I personally hate the card but I won't knock its usefulness.

Shrapnel Blast needs more than 8 artifacts. More than 2 Great Furnaces screw with your Fireblast plan, and it's questionable if you want more artifacts maindeck. If your sideboard is full of artifacts it might work but 2 Mana and 2 cards for 5 damage is nothing exciting.
Yes it can use a topdecked Bauble for winning the same turn, but that is offset by the times it will sit dead in your hand.

Ball Lightning is a hit or miss. Few non-combo decks can afford to deliberately hold back when facing burn, but the vulnerability to creature removal isn't trivial. It's arguable that it isn't necessarily a bad thing when it tramples through a blocker or is sworded... but as long as the format bends over backwards to have some low-end creature removal to combat Goblin Lackey, they won't be reliable.

A singleton Final Fortune is another great way to affect an Old School air, but the risks generally exceed the rewards.

[Kazadoom]

Final fortune is useless in my opinion as the card just reads:
RR - instant
Deal no damage. draw a card , untap all permanents , you lose if you dont win :(
fortune needs creatures otherwise its useless in my opinion (maybe in a bauble version the get the last bauble draw but i dont know)

Ball ligntning is another option that doesn't fit the deck especially as we go further into the direction of beeing able to operate on 2 lands (see cave-in) to negate the mana denial plan.

Kazadoom

[Dee]

thanx for the ideas... so is there already a consensus whether bauble burn is better than no baubles?

Ive been trying to test cave-in and flamebreak, both are good but one has to choose between the two. Has there been a general consensus on which one is better? The cardloss in cave-in is terrible in some instances... Has anyone tried out urzas rage or sudden shock? to have uncounterable ways to burn your opponent.

Ive tried the shrapnel blast with 8 baubles and 4 furnaces with 16 mountains... its doing pretty ok in testing.. I'm still looking into the possibility of using chrome moxen or rite of flames, possibly together with browbeat.

Maybe trying to go for the turn 3 kill sacrifices the consistency of winning 4th to 6th turn because one doesnt use flames of the blood hand or browbeat etc to use the 3 mana on the 3rd turn...

I appreciate your suggestions. It would be really great to get red decks back to burn mode instead of little goblins running the show.

[Iranon]

Flamebreak is the accepted choice; Cave-In needs a solid reason (such as fearing Empty the Warrens or running potentially dead cards like Pyrostatic Pillar or Price of Progress maindeck). This allows you to abuse certain metagames and minimise the associated risks.

I can't believe that a list with 20 lands is optimal if you are also running Baubles. If you don't need to make relevant compromises, Shrapnel Blast is good but it's not worth bending over backwards for.
Chrome Mox has some synergy with Browbeat and Shrapnel Blast, hmm. You might be on to something there.

About the goblins... let's keep them coming. Goblins is a fairly good match-up for Burn.

[jrr87]

here's my decklist. its like HighTide but with like 10 sorceries not including lands.

4 Simiam Spirit Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
2 Flames of the Blood Hand

2 Browbeat
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

17 Mountain


That list is separated by Creatures, Instants, Sorceries, Land.

Here's my SB.

2 Anarchy
3 Pyroblast
2 Sirocco
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt

[DeppChef]

I played the Legacy Side Event yesterday at Grand Prix Amsterdam. I think we were some 56 participants. I was first after swiss and finally made it with a total score of 8-0-1 :smile:

The deck was:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Spark Elemental
4 Magma Jet
4 Browbeat
4 Fireblast
3 Flame Rift
3 Price of Progress
3 Flamebreak
19 Mountain

Board:

3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Sirocco
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pithing Needle
1 Flamebreak

As you can see, I played Browbeat, Spark Elemental and Price of Progress main and I´m convinced this is the right choice.

Browbeat does anything you want and no matter what your opponent decides. Spark Elemental is lovely. In 9 out of 10 he is 3 damage for 1 mana meaning all in all 20 slots with 3 for 1. Price of Progress is outstanding. Its only worthless against Solidarity that you dont care about anyway cause first game is nearly autoloss.

All in all I would play it again the same way. Any suggestions?

[lillelassie]

My comments and questions:

I like your list - but I'm really curious about what decks you faced?

Honestly your list seems to autolose to Goblins and other forms of aggro (jitte) - with no Mogg Fanatics and only 3 MD Flamebreak. Did you face Chalize of the Void? It's becoming popular in goblin decks and and Faerie Stompy? you have no answer to it.

Also - was there any time you wished that Browbeat was a 3 dmg-burnspell - so you could instantly kill an opponent, without giving him another turn?

All in all I like your deck in a control-thresh meta, but it's not looking to good against aggro (Goblins) or decks packing devastating artifacts (Chalize, Jitte).

[Cintanul]

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
3 Fireblast

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress

3 Flamebreak

4 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
8 Mountain

4 Jotun Grunt
4 Disenchant
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sirocco

I played the above this last Sunday at an eight man tourney and got 1st.

Thresh deck #1 won 2-1.
Interesting plays included him playing a Meddling Mage naming Rift Bolt while it was suspended, keeping it removed from the game. I took out Flamebreaks for Jotun Grunts, which helped a lot by keeping him off of threshold. I sideboarded in Pyroscatic Pillar for the Price of Progress one game, and they did a lot of damage to the opponent, but also a lot to me, so I didn't use them again.

Thresh deck #2 won 2-0.
Jotun Grunts getting hit by Flametongue Kavu is not fun. He countered my man plan.

ATS lost 1-2.
Close games. I played defensively one game, which was probably a mistake. Another interesting play was him playing Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir while Rift Bolt was suspended, again keeping it removed from the game. I sideboarded in Discenchant (-3 Flamebreak, -1 Lightning Helix), but never drew them.

Top 4 - Thresh deck #1 (again) won 2-0.
Price of Progress for eight is awesome.

Top 2 - ATS (again) won 2-0.
He had a horrible hand the first game. Second game was closer, but burn came through! I still never drew Discenchant.

I never played Flamebreak and always sideboarded it out. Price of Progress worked quite nicely.

I'd like to put in a couple more fetchlands, but otherwise I like the main deck. The sideboard still needs work. Maybe some needles?

[Kazadoom]

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
3 Fireblast

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress

3 Flamebreak

4 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
8 Mountain

4 Jotun Grunt
4 Disenchant
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sirocco


Savanna should be plateau? maybe play 8 fetches and cut 2 plateaus
so you can fetch them whenever you need and dont draw them that often if you dont need them. It also reduces the dmg from price you may take.

Btw. nice to see burn winning :D

[Cintanul]

Savanna should be plateau? maybe play 8 fetches and cut 2 plateaus
so you can fetch them whenever you need and dont draw them that often if you dont need them. It also reduces the dmg from price you may take.

Btw. nice to see burn winning :D

Haha, yeah, Plateaus.

Three might be ok, but I think two would be too vulnerable to Wasteland, etc.... I realize you'd only get them when you need them, but it's not unlikely to need to cast white spells two turns in a row (Grunt followed by Helix) where wasteland could really hurt.

[BlinX]

Only 3 Fireblast?
No flamerift, when it's the only garunteed 1R-4.
Your going to take roughly the same amount of dmg if not more from fetches and plateau/PoP, that you'd gain with Lightning Helix....
When I played fetches, I've often found my self not consistently drawing 3 mts... So I'd have to run more land and less burn in order to compensate, thus the deck thinning loses its entire purpose.
Also a wasteland to a plateau would really bite. A bunch of dead helixes sucks.

I don't hate your list. Actually mine used to be almost identical..., but I didn't like the thought of dead helixes. PoP dmg to my self + Fetch dmg + Flame rift dmg + flamebreak dmg.

Honestly I'd say forget the whole Rw, and go mono red. Cut the fetches and play 17-18 mountains cuz you play baubles. Replace Lightning Helix with Flamerift for a more consistent turn 4 win, and IMO drop magma jet for Incinerate cuz the 1 less dmg lost me games. Oh and up fireblast to 4x.

Ehh.. I'm not perfect though, good luck ^_^.

[cianty]

I suppose you were facing a red splash of Thresh? Otherwise I would never take out Flamebreaks as they are the only chance of surviving a Mongoose/Worship lock. That's another reason for Flamebreak over Pyroclasm/Cave-in - at least to me.

[Kazadoom]

I for my part like to split 3Flamebreak/2Cave-In it worked out really well in my matches so far.

[Lego]

I didn't see anyone discussing your list, so I thought I'd help you out:


4 Simiam Spirit Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
2 Flames of the Blood Hand

2 Browbeat
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

17 Mountain

Fairly standard list. Usually you don't want to separate your instants from your sorceries, as this is just confusing. And we need discussion of why you play certain things, and why you leave out others, especially if you're making strange choices that may be based on your meta.

You're running 8 Chain Lightning. Plus, I don't know how you can justify Simian Spirit Guide. He was discussed earlier in the thread, go back and check it out.

Also, you probably need to play a sweeper. Flamebreak has usually been the staple, but you can replace it with Rolling Earthquake or Cave-In if you'd like.

Suggestions:
-4 Chain Lightning, -4 Simian Spirit Guide
+1 Mountain, +3 Flamebreak, +4 Mogg Fanatic

I left the 2 Flames of the Blood Hand, because I suppose they could be justifiable in some metas, but I still wonder about that slot. Sulfuric Vortex is another option in this slot, but I would just wonder if either is better than other options.

As for the board, Defense Grid is the only real stand-out choice. What are you boarding this against? Seems bad.


No flamerift, when it's the only garunteed 1R-4.

Flame Rift is far from a staple card in burn. One of the biggest reasons not to play it is that it makes your Goblin matchup worse. I'm seeing more and more little green men these days. It's possible that in your meta there are a couple of matchups it makes better, and that's worth taking a hit in the Goblins match, but that generally doesn't seem to be the case.


I for my part like to split 3Flamebreak/2Cave-In it worked out really well in my matches so far.

What are you fearing enough that you feel like you need 5 sweepers?


Has anyone tried out urzas rage or sudden shock? to have uncounterable ways to burn your opponent.

It's counterintuitive to play inefficient uncounterable burn spells when everything else in your deck is counterable. The deck should already have a stellar matchup against control decks, as your spells are almost always going to be cheaper than whatever they use to counter them. They're fighting a losing war. In which matchups do you see uncounterability helping, and exactly how would it help?

Sudden Shock seems slightly more justifiable than Urza's Rage, but not because of its uncounterability.

[redmage]

I for my part like to split 3Flamebreak/2Cave-In it worked out really well in my matches so far.

I run a similar set-up with 2 Cave-In, and 1-3 Flamebreak MD (depending on how many 'geese I'm expecting to face). I've been pretty happy with the results so far.

@DeppChef

Congrats on the finish, and I like the list.

One question though; have you had any problems/issues running 7 MD, 3cc, spells with only 19 MD lands? I've been a fan of Browbeat for quite awhile, but I've been leery of running more than 2-3 (when in combination with the MD Flamebreaks). O.k., I guess it's 2 questions; do you find yourself relying on 'Jet scryes' very often (for the 3rd land) with such a high 3cc card count?

[Cintanul]

Only 3 Fireblast?
No flamerift, when it's the only garunteed 1R-4.
Your going to take roughly the same amount of dmg if not more from fetches and plateau/PoP, that you'd gain with Lightning Helix....
When I played fetches, I've often found my self not consistently drawing 3 mts... So I'd have to run more land and less burn in order to compensate, thus the deck thinning loses its entire purpose.
Also a wasteland to a plateau would really bite. A bunch of dead helixes sucks.

I don't hate your list. Actually mine used to be almost identical..., but I didn't like the thought of dead helixes. PoP dmg to my self + Fetch dmg + Flame rift dmg + flamebreak dmg.

Honestly I'd say forget the whole Rw, and go mono red. Cut the fetches and play 17-18 mountains cuz you play baubles. Replace Lightning Helix with Flamerift for a more consistent turn 4 win, and IMO drop magma jet for Incinerate cuz the 1 less dmg lost me games. Oh and up fireblast to 4x.

Ehh.. I'm not perfect though, good luck ^_^.

The white splash is more for what can be done with the sideboard, though I also like Lightening Helix. Maybe I feel more comfortable with the flexibility Discenchant provides. And Jotun Grunt is an awesome man-plan, haha, though Keldon Marauders might be just as good for a mono-red man-plan.

Mono-red is tempting though due to not being hit by Wasteland. I'd still play Magma Jet because it's really needed in a deck like this where hitting lands at the wrong time really hurts.

[Cintanul]

I suppose you were facing a red splash of Thresh? Otherwise I would never take out Flamebreaks as they are the only chance of surviving a Mongoose/Worship lock. That's another reason for Flamebreak over Pyroclasm/Cave-in - at least to me.

Yeah, neither of the two I played got Worship out (not sure if they had them in the deck/sideboard or not).

Good point about Flamebreak. Discenchant helps too.

[Kazadoom]

for me helix is
1)to compensate the life loss from fetchies
2)3for2 instant
3)slot filler for siderboard cards

The reason to play white is not helix, but disenchant (i even consider dropping the count in my meta) and grunt which is just awesome in so many matchups.

Yes i need tose sweepers there's much aggro here in austria (many random deck where it helps). in the past i was playing 4Flamebraeks + 1Earthquake (+2sb) but i just hated to draw multiples.
Then i switched to 3 (+1sb)/2 (+1sb) config moving one break to the side.
Those 7 sweepers after siderboarding really helped me so far (although it may be paranoid^^)

To wasteland: sometimes you can just sac the wasted land in response, actually did that a few times it may not be optimal but in the following position its quite good:

some cards in hand+Jet+Fireblast
he wastes your land => tap in response, Play fireblast in response, let it resolve use jet to scry for whatever you need to win in the next 1,2 turns.

one further point for baubles is that it helps against discard! just crac them on the opponents turn so he cant duress the draw away during his turn.

[DeppChef]

@ redmage:

nope, 19 lands has never really been a problem. Often enough you can keep a one-land-hand cause of having 20 spells with casting cost 1 plus playing 4 Magma Jet which helps a lot finding the third land after drawing the second one. Actually with 2 lands you can do anything you want. Even 18 lands is worth a try.

You don´t want to be flooded cause that means you´re running out of gas. At Grand Prix Lille I played 20 lands. two times I was able to play Fireblast - hardcast (!).

Still I haven´t found any solid solution against chalice played for 1. On the other hand I´m not sure if it really hurts us too much. There are still a lot of spells that you can play so chalice for 1 is not an autoloss.

Even if some are doubting, but Goblin IS a good matchup, especially after boarding with 4 Flamebreaks and Pithing Needle (for Aether Vial). In sanctioned tournaments I played against them for some 10 times and won 8 of them.

[redmage]

19 lands has never really been a problem.

It's good to hear that 19 lands has worked out well for you. It seems that any less would make you a bit too dependant on scrying to find that 3rd land (with 7 3cc spells MD).

I love the relationship between Browbeat and Fireblast. It's great to cast a 'Beat, with 'Blast backup, for a possible 9 dmg; and I find that (if I don't have a "Blast) a 'Beat will draw me into one quite often. In tandem, they really punish the opponent no matter what he/she "chooses".



You don´t want to be flooded cause that means you´re running out of gas. At Grand Prix Lille I played 20 lands. two times I was able to play Fireblast - hardcast (!).

Musta been some pretty bad draws, or a nice loooong match to hit 6 Mts.



Still I haven´t found any solid solution against chalice played for 1.

The answer I prefer is Shattering Spree. The replicated copys get around chalice@1.



On the other hand I´m not sure if it really hurts us too much. There are still a lot of spells that you can play so chalice for 1 is not an autoloss.

Yeah, the 'Jets, and 'Beats, should draw you into your higher CC threats pretty well. One of my favorite attributes of our new 3-for-1 (Rift Bolt) is its natural resiliance to Chalice@1.

[balla26]

I think I've found some new tech: Sandstone Needle. Yeah, go ahead and search it up on the gatherer. I've been using Sandstone for the past few days and I have gotten several turn 3 wins and consistent turn 4 wins. I have taken out most of the slower cards in favor for a faster deck.

My list:

15 Mountain
3 Sandstone Needle

4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Spark Elemental
4 Incinerate
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Flame Rift
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Thunderbolt
4 Fireblast

[raudo]

Cave-in was great last weekend against mana denial and chalice based decks:

When facing chalice@1 you can discard your extra bolts for it. And when facing mana deniel, well it's just surprise 2 to the head.

My list was something like:

17 mountain
8 bauble

16 1cc bolts
4 fireblast
4 flame rift
4 magma jet
3 browbeat
2 price of progress
2 cave-in

Other notes: Trinisphere is just ridiculous hate card and almost an automatic game loss.

[Kazadoom]

Trini Depends how soon its on the board an if you just need 2 spells to finish him off then it doesnt matter.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

But all decks that are playing Trinisphere also playing Chalcid...

How is the STAX and FS matchup? Autoss?

[troopatroop]

Pretty much. Burn loses to Jitte under almost all circmstances. Trinisphere or Chalice own you. You basically have no outs.

[Bane of the Living]

I was playing Angel Stax against burn last week and lost 0-2 because I couldnt lock my opponent down before I went to 0. I couldnt get hits in with Exalted before death. I had Sphere of Law but he had Anarchy. I suggest that and Shattering Spree if you see alot of stax type decks.

Also, I dont think he had Chain Lightnings, softening the blow from my CoTV@1. Rift Bolt gets around chalice.

[kicks_422]

I've never had trouble with Stax decks. Their Ancient Tombs help a lot, and dropping Chalices and Trinispheres only delay their death if they don't get something to lock us out. After SB, Shattering Sprees come in (which manhandle both Chalice and Trinisphere), and with the 8 Baubles, are found easily.

Shattering Sprees also come in handy against Jittes.

For reference, my SB:

4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering SPree
3 Anarchy

[slyfer]

Instead I have problem because he play the routine:
land, go, landx2 mana trinisphere/chalice @1, and turn 3 armageddon with flagstone out, i don't draw anymore lands

We have outs to chalice@1 and trinisphere because red >>>> artifacts, the problem is that we take armageddon into out teeth :smile:

[kicks_422]

You don't have to feel bad about that, because almost every deck in the format is incapacitated by such a broken opening by Stax, not just Burn.

[bigbear102]

I have been playing this list lately, and really like it:

4x Bolt
4x Chain
4x Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Lightning Helix
4x Magma Jet
4x Fireblast
3x Flame Break

4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Jotun Grunt

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Plateau
6x Mountain

SB:
4x Pillar
4x Shattering Spree
3x PoP
4x???

I really like this build a lot. I know Grunt MD is kinda odd, but it helps more than it hurts. It gives you outs against a lot of things this deck has problems with. I can easily feed it, and that is why I play 8 Fetches when I really only need 5-6. Helix makes up for the extra damage nicely.

I don't think that enchantment hate is really needed in the format right now. Pillar deals with all of the matchups you might need it in. If they get a worship out you have Flamebreak to deal with Mongeese.

Shattering Spree is the best artifact destruction in my opinion. It gets around Chalice and kind of Trinisphere. It makes the affinity matchup go from about 60-40 to about 80-20.

I think the last 4 slots in the board are going to include 2-3 copies of Pyroclasm. I know this deck should beat goblins but it is historically one of my personal worst matchups, and I like to have a bit more insurance. With 3 Flamebreak and 2-3 Clasm post board the game should definately be in my favor.

I really wanna test Flame Rift in here somewhere, but have been running into the problem of too many sorceries and not enough spells to play eot. That can be a real problem sometimes. Testing should resolve this issue.

[bigbear102]

Instead I have problem because he play the routine:
land, go, landx2 mana trinisphere/chalice @1, and turn 3 armageddon with flagstone out, i don't draw anymore lands

We have outs to chalice@1 and trinisphere because red >>>> artifacts, the problem is that we take armageddon into out teeth :smile:

You should be able to play Shattering Spree before they get Geddon off, and after that you are playing a deck that curves out at 3. You also have Fireblast to get one last hurrah for their Geddon. With Shattering Spree in the board I don't really see why you should have much of a problem with Stax, unless they do get the nut draw, then every deck loses to them.

Dropping Pillar early helps too, as most of their deck will be CC under 3, and Ancient Tombs get them low. Odds are if you get a 2nd turn Pillar they will deal at least 10 damage to themselves.

[Shriekmaw]

I'm not quite sure how many people saw this list, but it did get third in one of the Meandeck tournaments that they hosted. It also managed to beat Iggy Pop in the Top 8 of the tournament. I found some of these cards very interesting in the deck.

“Burninator” by Mark Trogdon
Third Place, Meandeck Open
December 17, 2006
Columbus, Ohio

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
3 Seal of Fire
4 Flame Rift
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Thunderbolt
2 Cave-in
3 Browbeat
4 Fireblast
17 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Anarchy
3 Meltdown

Tell me what you think about this list Matt (bigbear102). I think mono-red is the way to go, but the white splash is pretty interesting to test out and it seems like the results speak for themselves.

[kicks_422]

18 card SB FTW. I'm guessing those Blasts are just 4 of one kind, or 2 of each?

I don't like Seal of Fire in straight Burn because I think there are better options for it. Also, no Flamebreaks are odd/scary - meta choice, I suppose?

This is my list, and I'm pretty happy with this.

18 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Flame Rift
2 Breath of Darigaaz
4 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

Sideboard:

4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Anarchy

Those 2 Breath of Darigaaz could easily become 2 Price of Progress if need be. I just want more sweepers in the deck because my meta as of the moment is leaning on quick aggro (hence the 4 Flamebreaks as well).

No Pyroblasts and REB's in the SB. Seriously. A Pyroblast on a counter to get a burn spell through could just as easily be 2 burn spells instead.

[bigbear102]

On "Burninator":
1) I hate Browbeat. This is personal preference, but I just don't like it.
2) Thunderbolt is probably a decent call with the increase in Faerie Stompy/Skies decks. For reference:
Thunderbolt
1R
Instant
Deal 3 damage to target player, or 4 damage to target creature with flying.

It is a solid card, and being able to kill Serendib is nice.
3) Seal of Fire is weak. The deck wants to win asap, and having a spell that doesn't deal 3 damage other than Magma Jet is not a good idea.
4) Cave in, in this build it is probably the right call. With Seals and Browbeats you are going to have draws that you don't need to use, so they can be pitched. I just can't validate weakening other slots to play this card. You need dead cards in order for Cave-In to be worth it, I think Flamebreak is just better.
5) Flame Rift: I am currently debating this card, I know how powerful it can be, and personally love it. I'm not sure with the increase in aggro if it is safe to play. It is a house against combo/control, but you beat control, and with pillar can race combo. It's a very iffy card, but I in no way can blame him for running it.

Everything else is pretty standard. 17 land is a bit low for my liking, I usually go with 18, but it's not bad.

On the white splash, I really like Grunt. In testing he has proven himself. It makes the gro matchup even more in your favor, whereas it is about 60/40 with mono-red. The lack of Wasteland in this metagame is also a good reason to play the whitesplash, 2 decks play it, Goblins and Landstill. I added pyroclasm to the board in addition to Flamebreak main to shore up the goblins matchup, and Landstill is about 70-30 in your favor anyway, if not even better than that.

[Iranon]

Why Pyroclasm instead of Cave-In? Empty the Warrens cheese smells, and compared to Pyroclasm, your weakest red card becomes '2 to both for free', which Burn would run if it existed.


On Trogdon's list: Since he included Seal of Fire and Flame Rift, I'm stumped why he didn't run Pulse of the Forge... possibly in the Browbeat slot. Each card is questionable on its own, but they work exceedingly well together.

[yiff]

How does shattering spree replicate copies get around chalice for 1, you can't replicate it cuase you can't play it in the first place...CC is 1.

[Taurelin]

How does shattering spree replicate copies get around chalice for 1, you can't replicate it cuase you can't play it in the first place...CC is 1.

Chalice of the Void
XX (0), Artifact
Chalice of the Void comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Whenever a player plays a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

Sure you can play a spell. It just gets countered. The replicate copies, however, are not countered, because they aren't played. They are simple put on the stack and hence get around Chalice.

[yiff]

Chalice of the Void
XX (0), Artifact
Chalice of the Void comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Whenever a player plays a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

Sure you can play a spell. It just gets countered. The replicate copies, however, are not countered, because they aren't played. They are simple put on the stack and hence get around Chalice.

thank you very much

[coyote]

Is a wishboard (kinda) viable at all with burn? It goes against the burn strategy but it may improve more game one matches.

On that note my maindeck would look like:

4:Lightning Bolt
4:Chain Lightning
4:Rift Bolt
4:Lava Spike
4:Mana Clash :D

3:Burning Wish
4:Fork
3:Price of Progress (May change pending the number of plains.dec x 200 scrubs)

4:Mishra's Bauble
4:Urza's Bauble
4:Fireblast

18:mtn

SB:
1:Cave-in
1:Anarchy
1:Shattering Spree
1:Pulverize
1:Searing Rays.............what. Invasion? Huh? Oh my....
1:Meltdown
1:Overmaster
4:Pyrostatic Pillar
4:Red Elemental Blast

That's just off the top of my head, but I'd really like to know what you think.(About the sideboard mainly) Please don't start dropping OMGLOLBBQNOMAGMAJETWTFSCRUB!@#$ because I'm very set against the card.

[coyote]

Until future sight comes out I would advocate burn builds staying mono-red. After its release I'm not sure I'll be able to keep from splashing white...

Orange Crush

4:Lightning Bolt
4:Chain Lightning
4:Rift Bolt
4:Lava Spike
4:Fireblast
4:Lightning Helix
4:Orim's Chant
4:Jotun Grunt
4:Mishra's Bauble
4:Urza's Bauble
4:Street Wraith (lets hope the preview is accurate)

8:Fetch
6:Mtn
2:Plateau

This build is near identical to the Grunt burn threads that have been running around and I do hope to join them in June, however, one card I think they overlook is Orim's Chant. I haven't seen a deck build yet that uses this card aggressively. Hell yeah, its a combo buster, but even vs. aggro its awesome. Case in point; (On the play) Mtn, bolt, go. Turn 2, Fetch, bolt, go. Chant during opponents upkeep.HUGE.Timewalk effect. Mid to late game? Still a defensive tool. (and one of the best.)

[bigbear102]

"Is a wishboard (kinda) viable at all with burn? It goes against the burn strategy but it may improve more game one matches."

If ur not winning at least 75% of game ones then you should play another deck.

[kicks_422]

Having 4 Street Wraiths AND 8 Baubles makes your deck too thin. You only play these cards when there's nothing left to add to the deck - and I see you're missing some vital cards such as Magma Jet nd Flamebreak.

[coyote]

Flamebreak - Port
Magma Jet - Garbage

[yiff]

Hey guys, just started testing this deck out and I'm pretty impressed. I dunno which version would be better though, 8 baubles or 0 baubles. Here is my current list, looking for some criticism.

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
4x Flame Rift
4x Fireblast
4x Urza's Bauble
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Flamebreak
2x Price of Progress
16x Mountain

SB
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Anarchy
2x Price of Progress
2x Shattering Spree

Watcha guys think?

[kicks_422]

Flamebreak - Port
Magma Jet - Garbage

And if they don't have Port? Are you expecting to be facing Goblins in every match?

Magma Jet saves you from horrible draws, which the deck is prone to. It's one of the best burn spells of all time, up there with Lightning Bolt and company.

[Finn]

Kicks, you really have to chuckle a bit on how cyclical some of these threads - particularly this one - can get. Magma Jet is not clearly awesome until you play it a few times. In six months, you will have to derive its utility to another person.

Yiff, if you have Mishra's Bauble, you want fetchlands.

Dear world: Mishra's Bauble is only worth using in a deck with about 16 sorceries if you use fetchlands to affect your draw.

[coyote]

Is there an aggro deck other than gobs that you feel flamebreak is needed to win? Zoo maybe. But thats generally an easy race without flamebreak. I was a little short in my last post as my girlfriends dog had just lit me the fuck up for trying to fill its water dish, so I apologize. I see how much potential magma jet has, I just think its better left out if baubles are used. And instead of just dumping on flamebreak I should have suggested cave-in.

The cave-in arguement could go on for another 3 pages vs. flamebreak but since I'm a stubborn mule and refuse to take out a set of forks it playtests better than flamebreak. "Free" spell in the sense that no mana is used is a plus so I can fork it 3rd turn and nab an early efreet. Or at any point really.
I may just be looking for excuses to keep fork for old times sake :D

[kicks_422]

Well, Flamebreak isn't only used against aggro, you know... There's also aggro-control, with their Nimble Mongeese, Meddling Mages, Crystalline Slivers, Dark Confidants, etc.

I think Cave-In is pretty bad. Sure, it's free and all, but I think 3 is still the magic number for sweeper damage, and giving up 2 cards or a free spell is sometiems just too much for a deck with no draw.

[Zilla]

Well, Flamebreak isn't only used against aggro, you know... There's also aggro-control, with their Nimble Mongeese, Meddling Mages, Crystalline Slivers, Dark Confidants, etc.
And yet Flamebreak is actually quite bad in those matchups. 3cc sorcery speed removal isn't exactly hard for Thresh or Countersliver to answer; if anything it just makes their Dazes better. You should be able to race these decks without bothering with their creatures at all. In practice, this often doesn't happen, but Flamebreak doesn't improve the situation. They simply have strategic superiority.

The simple answer to the question is, yes, Flamebreak is only in there for Goblins. Goblins is the most popular deck in the format, and it's a tough match without Flambreak, and a favorable one with. That may or may not be a good enough reaon to run it in the maindeck. It's hard to say, because it really is the weakest card in the deck against almost everything else.

[Iranon]

...and it should be noted that against Goblins, Cave-In is usually enough to kick them in the junk while being a far better tool against Empty the Warrens if that is an issue. On the draw, Flamebreak can come online a little late especially since having 3 mana on turn 3 is by no means guaranteed unless you run an unusually high amount of mana sources.

However... in just about any match-up Flamebreak is poor, Cave-In is downright abysmal unless you maindeck suck-or-shine spells like Pyrostatic Pillar or Price of Progress.

[CalebD]

A question for bauble varients: why no barbarian ring? You don't need to run 4, that might get in the way of fireblast from time to time, but 2 shouldn't. I tested a few games and thresh is very, very easy to get with the baubles, making ring a consistant source of uncounterable, colorless direct damage.

[KillemallCFH]

I run 2 barbarian rings in my bauble burn build. I don't think they've ever gotten in the way of fireblast and they've randomly won a couple of games.

[LrdMcCaffrey]

I've been toying around with a burn deck that goes in a very different direction. Basically, it occured to me that Ankh of Mishra, given the prevalence of fetch lands and the fact that rather few decks nowadays like to play off 2 lands, seems like at the worst it is most likely a colorless flamerift, and has the very good possibility to be much better if you're opponent is relying on fetch lands.

There are 2 problems with Ankh of Mishra. First, is that the faster it comes down the better it is. A turn 1 ankh is 2 more damage than a turn 2 ankh. To get it down early, I chose to use Chrome Mox.

The second problem is that with tossing spells to chrome mox and playing Ankh, a spell that doesn't actually deal any straight up damage, you are risking running out of gas with the traditional 3 to the dome burn spells. To get more bang for the card, I also tried using Shrapnel Blast, a card that's demonstrated itself to be an excellent finisher in testing. It recycles unneeded or extra ankhs or late game Moxes to cook a solid chunk of your opponent's face. Little scary if it gets countered but fortunately you give aggro control and combo, the only decks with counterspells, enough to worry about as is. To help support Ankh, I'm also running 4 Great Furnaces. If someone more intelligent than me can make a good list with Baubles or any other good artifacts I'm forgetting, go ahead. (Pyrite Spellbomb does not count as a good artifact).

That said, the list:

Ankh Burn
Name Qty Sideboard
Mountain (4) 15
Great Furnace 4
Chrome Mox 4
Mogg Fanatic 4
Ankh of Mishra 4

Shrapnel Blast 4
Flamebreak 3
Price of Progress 3
Incinerate 4
Magma Jet 4
Fireblast 3
Chain Lightning 4
Lightning Bolt 4

Lands: 19, Spells: 37

SB
Shattering Spree 3
Flamebreak 1
Price of Progress 1
Pyrostatic Pillar 3-4
Sulfuric Vortex 3
4-5 slots free



Mogg Fanatic's are in there to take advantage of any opponents that have nothing on the creature front. If it trades with a dork and pings their face he's gone above and beyond the call of duty.

Flamebreak is a pretty inefficient burn spell but is there to stall fast aggro, for who ankh well as may not exist. The fairly high mana count is to give me enough for consistent 3 land turn 3, and to be able to consistently Shrapnel Blast+Fireblast. Chromes also make pretty terrible late game mana topdecks, so they necessitate a slightly higher land count. There is also the fact that the artifact mana base opens you up to Wasteland/Deed/Disenchant effects, so I'd rather not get mana screwed because I trimmed the land too tight. Fortunately, Blast does make disenchant effects significantly worse. What's that? Sinkholing my Furnace? Sure, but take 5 while you are at it. I'd run Wastelands to make Ankh more painful, but they would make Price of Progress and Fireblast significantly worse.

Other than that the burn complement is nothing particularly exciting. No flame rift because I have enough symettric effects already. Price of Progress can be dead in certain metas, but from what I've seen is at the least on par with Flame Rift, and randomly blows some games wide open. (I had a funny victory vs Urg WeeNaught gro. After double Pyro Pillar+Ankh, I just cast a single Price for 8 when he was trying to get enough damage to kill me. Naught is pretty terrible when each pump is 4 to the dome.)

Pyro's+Ankhs make any decks cost of living rather high. I was considering adding some more fast mana to get them turn 1 consistantly, but Lotus Petal and Mox diamond both seem kinda....bad....and Spirit Guide doesn't double as Blast Fodder. Flamebreak and Price are to complete the playsets against the appropriate decks.

Sulfuric Vortex looks pretty nubby but it's not testing out badly. It keeps me from Just Losing (tm) vs any random lifegain/white decks you run into, as well as providing a slow finisher. Sulfuric Vortex at 6-8 life, backed up by the power of prayer, is usually enough to finish things.

I geuss with the sideboard, i'd be looking for more ideas to bring in vs mid-range/aggro decks. Breath of Darigaaz might be ok, doubling as a modest finisher, but i'd be afraid that without the kicker modern aggro decks wouldn't even notice it. Anarchy might be a decent call, if WW/DnT/Angel Stompy is oddly popular where you play. The anti aggro cards would be boarded in for Ankhs/Prices, depending on the deck and it's manabase (Ie Goblins, Ankh and Price out, Domain Zoo, Ankh out 4 prices in). The only problem with this is that it brings my artifact count very low for Shrap Blast, so I might have to make room for a few more artifacts MD. I have enough land to probably support a few Darksteel Citadels or Mishra's factories without the red sources getting too low, but then Fireblast would be getting rather iffy, so I'd probably be better off adding artifact spells. Cursed Scroll maybe? Slooooooooow.


EDIT: Been doing a bunch more testing this afternoon. Due to the mehsauce of the MWS meta, Ankh has been very meh. (decks with all basic mana bases...really don't care about it much, nor does aggro), but on the games when it hits turn 1 or 2, or vs decks with ACTUAL manabases, it's quite unpleasant. Shrapnel Blast on the other hand has been a house and half. Very few other burnspells make quite as big holes in people as the 5-for-2, aside from monster Price's. It's been great for going for the 10 pt gib kill. Got absolutely wrecked by a CB thresh deck though. All that hate didn't help when I could no longer successfully resolve...anything...

My other favorite card so far is Magma Jet. It helps filter out late game artifacts, and denses up the burnspells in those grueling topdeck wars. Very solid card, and one that I'm not afraid to toss out to kill a dork if I have too. Flamebreak has been testing very nicely also. It's really odd to play the controlling roll with a burn deck, but taking some beats, holding back, then wiping 3 dorks with a Break and settling in to char the dome seems to be my best strategy so far vs straight aggro.

[coyote]

"Sulfuric Vortex at 6-8 life, backed up by the power of prayer, is usually enough to finish things."

I love it. I'm soooo maindecking a playset of power of prayer...

[Weekend Daddy]

What about using Ghost quarter? You'll lose some life for bringing it out, but it's kind of like having a Seal of Fire out...in land form! : You know there's 2 damage to disperse, but you can set it off whenever you feel like it.

[Iranon]

re Ghost Quarter: With just 4 Denial Lands, there is little chance your opponents will have only basics to target when you actually wish to pop one, hence Wasteland would be better. After all, if life is more critical than mana they can just forgo replacing the land.

The 'synergy' is really a case of 'sucking slightly less'. It's a nice idea though.



re Power of Prayer: I'm not sure it does as much as some people think it does. I'm also concerned about the apparent anti-synergy with Atheist's Scorn, although some run both. Has anyone tested it rigorously enough to have conclusive results?

[LrdMcCaffrey]

All the mana denial lands run into the problem of making either Fireblast or Shrapnel Blast unreliable, but playing some more I think some of them would be needed to get the most out of Ankh, so i geuss something has to go.

Shrapnel Blast-less list would be something like:

2 Ghost Quarter/Barbarian Ring
Mountain (4) 16
Wasteland 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4
Mogg Fanatic 4
Ankh of Mishra 4

Flamebreak 3
Price of Progress 4
Incinerate 4
Magma Jet 4
Fireblast 3
Chain Lightning 4
Lightning Bolt 4

Fireblast less list on the other hand-

Barbarian Ring 2
Wasteland 4
Mountain 10
Great Furnace 4
Chrome Mox 4
Mogg Fanatic 4
Ankh of Mishra 4

Shrapnel Blast 4
Flamebreak 4
Price of Progress 4
Incinerate 4
Magma Jet 4
Chain Lightning 4
Lightning Bolt 4

Barbaring Ring over Ghost in list 2 to keep enough red sources for consistent flamebreakage.

In both lists Prices are up to 4 MD to help fill the need for an explosive finish.

I might try looking at a bauble list later cutting Furnaces for wastes to help support Blast so you could run both, I just haven't had time so far. It seems like it would be a reasonably viable idea. Definetly would have to give up the fetch deck selection part though :-P.

Looking at Cave-in, it looks like you would be using alot of gas to do very little damage. While it's a more efficient answer than Flamebreak, at least Break makes a very solid if mediocre burn spell by it's lonesome when you aren't toasting weenie hordes, whereas the RR3 for cave in basically necessitates the ACC.

You guys have seriously never used the tutoring engine of Fervent Prayer? Heck with Enlightened Tutors, that things been dragging 1-of MD bombs to the top of my library for years.

*Dear Lord I promise that if the next card is Pernicous Deed you will get a NICE big fat check in the collection box this sunday as well as major Props in any tourney reports. Amen.*......MISE

EDIT: Actually it'd sorta be the opposite of tutoring, as those all seem to run along the lines of mephistophelian bargains. What would commending your soul to the good lord in exchange for favorable topdecks be called then?

[coyote]

Has anyone tested serum powder? It wouldn't be as good (if at all) in builds with staple cards like ankh or shrap blast or whatever. But in builds that mainly are trying to make a deck that is the many versions of bolt...viable...ish? Try it for fun? I've been goldfishing with it on MWS, it isnt terrible...but it ups my bad top deck cards to 12....so I'm not sure. Just a thought.

[slyfer]

I don't think that chrome mox is a card for this deck's philosophy. It makes you remove 1 burn spell, just to play ankh ? if it gets dazed or forced you lost so much steam.

Simian spirit guide is mediocre because it's not a burn... but compared to mox it's better because doesn't cost an extra card.

Spirit of burn is to race... race with cards! making opposing sword to plowshares, wrath, removals, ecc... dead cards!

I tested flame rift, and don't like it because it's ok only vs landstill the slowest deck in the format (or rw rifter). In every other case, together with maindeck flamebreak, let you go to 13 life points at least, and you find youself under opponent's life points.
Opponent creatures + sometimes burns are enough to lose.

So i don't recommend flame rift in a generic metagame (only control heavy).
It's bad also vs aggro control, because a thresholded creature can beat + we have too much loss of life.
Hasted goblin hurts too, you cannot play turn 2 flame rift, and going -4 + taking next turn attack!

[LrdMcCaffrey]

I'd play Flame Rift in the same meta I'd play Flesh Reaver in. That is to say, absolutely no meta that is going to exist any time soon.

[bigbear102]

WOW....

If you are going to play Ankh of Mishra, play it in Sligh or RDW. You need to be able to play Port and Wasteland to make it effective. Dropping it turn 2 against some decks will do absolutely nothing. The assessment that Ankh is good in this meta is correct, but it's just not good in this deck. If you want to play Ankh and Shrapnel blast and the like play it in a deck that is not so reliant on the top deck. You want creatures to do that. Play Jackal Pups, maybe Lavamancers, something with permanent damage sources so as not to die when you draw it late game and need an answer.


As for Ankh in burn, the decks it's good against are:

Control.

You should already smash control, so it's not even needed against the best deck it's good against.

Thresh can live off of 2-3 land, so that MIGHT be a fireblast to them, if that much.

Goblins have Lackey and Vial, and you don't wanna do any damage to yourself that you are not also doing to them (Flamebreak).

Combo plays at max 4 land before they kill you. Again, that might be a fireblast.

The point is that if you are on the draw against any deck, you will probably not do enough damage to warrant a spell that hurts your topdecks and also does damage to you. Drawing Ankh after turn 2 is completely useless, completely.

Shrapnel Blast is not good in this deck because it makes you play bad cards. Chrome Mox and Great Furnace are both able to be easily destroyed. The point of burn is to maximize virtual card advantage. The only spell I fully advocate that is a permanent is Mogg Fanatic because of Goblins, he can kill any goblin in their deck, and stops turn 1 Lackey without wasting burn.

@LrdMcCaffrey: You advocate playing 4 Price of Progress in a deck with:
2 Ghost Quarter/Barbarian Ring
Mountain (4) 16
Wasteland 4

yet say that Flame Rift is not good because it deals you 4 damage??? Price also has anti-synergy with Ghost Quarter AND Wasteland. You have 6 ways of making your cards less effective, doesn't seem good to me.

@Coyote: you answered your own question about Serum Powder, it's a bad topdeck. And, any hand with a serum powder in it is not keepable BECAUSE it has Serum Powder in it. Drawing it is completely useless. Every card in burn serves a purpose off the top. Either they do damage, or they feed cards that do damage. Drawing a mountain can sometimes be a good thing when you are holding double fireblast, it's uncommon, but it happens. Drawing a Serum Powder will NEVER be relevant.

[KillemallCFH]

Concerning Flame Rift, I use 3 in my deck. They are not to be used turn 2 usually, but as a win card. I often find my opponent at 8 life with only 7 damage in my hand (or only enough mana to deal 7 damage). By maximizing the number of 4 damage burn, it lets you win a turn earlier in these situations by going Fireblast+Fork or Fireblast+Flame Rift (or Flame Rift+Fork if you have 4 mana) instead of setlling for Fireblast+Lava Spike and letting them swing for the win next turn. This is all assuming that you have more than 4 life, but from my experiences, you usually do.

[coyote]

@Coyote: you answered your own question about Serum Powder, it's a bad topdeck. And, any hand with a serum powder in it is not keepable BECAUSE it has Serum Powder in it. Drawing it is completely useless. Every card in burn serves a purpose off the top. Either they do damage, or they feed cards that do damage. Drawing a mountain can sometimes be a good thing when you are holding double fireblast, it's uncommon, but it happens. Drawing a Serum Powder will NEVER be relevant.

I run a build with all the baubles and more often than not its beneficial. Example hand: bolt, fork, mtn, rift bolt, bauble, SP, bauble. Now, if I dump this hand my fork, bolt, and rift bolt chances go from 1/15 to about 1/17...meh....negligable.....however I increase the odds of drawing chain lightning, lava spike, fire blast, etc. I dunno, in goldfishing I seem to have less problems than more, but I'm gunna playtest it tonight at a local tourney and get some real results up. I definately agree with both major points against SP, but I like playing risky for marginal reward. Plus its a filler that I can live with instead of running the many crappy versions of incinerate. Either way, I'll post some results monday from both tourneys.

[b4r0n]

It seems like Burn would be a perfect deck to run Street Wraith in. The perfect draw for burn is a turn 3 kill that looks something like Mountain, Chain, Mountain, Chain, Bolt, Mountain, Chain, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast. Street Wraiths, like Baubles, let you slim down the deck and produce a greater chance of a fast kill. While this isn't the same as running a 48 card deck, it's pretty close.

Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

0:
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble

1:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Spark Elemental

2:
4 Magma Jet

Finishers:
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

[slyfer]

0:
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble


:eek: to me these are like "12 dead cards in aburn deck"
could be more burns, and let opponent live a turn more, letting resolve the cantrip and counter the FEW spells you have to throw.

Because it's obvious that you have less burn that normal, just to play useless cantrips. :laugh:

what you claim is only THEORY. It's the god hand i can also have with burn spells in place of cantrips.
Futhermore, 30/31 burns is at least mre consistent, avoiding hand with too much useless cantrips, and avoiding topdeck cantrips.

Ah you miss a little card ...flamebreak....the card that let you win goblin

PS: why people use spark elemental? it's clear dead card, because activate the "creature removal cards" of opponent. Sword to plowshare is a dead card vs us. Why do we let it be usefull? Meh..
Fanatic is the only creature playable in burn deck (read page 1)

[Goblin Snowman]

:eek: to me these are like "12 dead cards in aburn deck"
could be more burns, and let opponent live a turn more, letting resolve the cantrip and counter the FEW spells you have to throw.

Because it's obvious that you have less burn that normal, just to play useless cantrips. :laugh:

what you claim is only THEORY. It's the god hand i can also have with burn spells in place of cantrips.
Futhermore, 30/31 burns is at least mre consistent, avoiding hand with too much useless cantrips, and avoiding topdeck cantrips.

Ah you miss a little card ...flamebreak....the card that let you win goblin

PS: why people use spark elemental? it's clear dead card, because activate the "creature removal cards" of opponent. Sword to plowshare is a dead card vs us. Why do we let it be usefull? Meh..
Fanatic is the only creature playable in burn deck (read page 1)

The reason people play the 12 Cantrips is to speed Burn up; They give you cards on the next upkeep, you opponants, meaning you can play spells, just only instants. People realized that there is not enough good burn to fill up 60 cards, therefore, they started running the 8 baubles. Street Wraith is simply a better Bauble. People use Spark Elemental because it's better against Solidarity most of the time, and better against the format as a whole. People tap out against Burn on their turn anyway, effectivly shutting off STP and other removal.

[bigbear102]

Arguing that Spark Elemental is good against Solidarity is not that great of an argument. Solidarity is not played nearly as much as it used to be, and post-board you should have the advantage with at least Pillar. Spark can also be killed by any creature removal. If the opponent is tapped out fine, but what if they have a blocker? If you top deck it late game it is irrelevant most of the time. The lack of targets in this deck means that if you play it any time after the first 2-3 turns you will probably see it die prematurely. A lot of combo decks have also started running ETW, which makes Sparky even less stellar against them.

[Goblin Snowman]

Arguing that Spark Elemental is good against Solidarity is not that great of an argument. Solidarity is not played nearly as much as it used to be, and post-board you should have the advantage with at least Pillar. Spark can also be killed by any creature removal. If the opponent is tapped out fine, but what if they have a blocker? If you top deck it late game it is irrelevant most of the time. The lack of targets in this deck means that if you play it any time after the first 2-3 turns you will probably see it die prematurely. A lot of combo decks have also started running ETW, which makes Sparky even less stellar against them.

I'm not advocating it, just telling him why it might get played.

[bruno_tiete]

It seems like Burn would be a perfect deck to run Street Wraith in. The perfect draw for burn is a turn 3 kill that looks something like Mountain, Chain, Mountain, Chain, Bolt, Mountain, Chain, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast. Street Wraiths, like Baubles, let you slim down the deck and produce a greater chance of a fast kill. While this isn't the same as running a 48 card deck, it's pretty close.

Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

0:
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble

1:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Spark Elemental

2:
4 Magma Jet

Finishers:
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

I was actually thinking of how to make a proper list with baubles and wraiths. It seems to me Sparkies are subpar, as called for by bigbear. I wouldn't run 4 magma jets, also.

It's accepted current Magic Theory that cantrips reduce your needs for land in a two for one basis. That is, each couple cantrips should allow you to cut a land from your deck. Therefore, a very low CC list, as should be 48-cards burn would need 14-15 lands at most. Otherwise you will get flooded a lot.

I see fetches are great with baubles, and would run then. Thing is 12 cantrips plus 8 fetches allow you to run threshold stuff, for what I mean barbarian ring. I was never a fan of barbarian rings for its pinging and its uselessness (for not achieving threshold) in can you get mana flooded, where it would exactly be at its best. Still, this is support enough for it in 48-burn.

In the theme of keeping the land count as low as realisticly possible, Cave-in should be sweeper of choice. And run at most in a set of 3 copies.

This brings us the possibility to maindeck our two all-or-none favorite spells: Price of progress and Pyrostatic Pillar. If you run 2 of each, it will act as if you where running 2.8 copies of them in a regular non-bauble build, which can be used as Cave-in fodder in the "none" scenarios. I know this is kinda silly, playing 1/5 spells which can be completelly dead, but they tend to be all when the other is none and vice-versa. I can't think of a single deck which would bother both Price and Pillar. I may be letting something go, you see.
Also keep in mind you should only cast Pillar against someone who cant beat you with it on the table. I mean, save it for Storm Combos. You dont want to be hurt severelly while casting your 3-for-1s for nothing.

Usually I am a Flamebreak guy, with foil copies and all, but i have to admit it puts pressure on your land count, and thus is not appropriate here.

48-burn should have a lot less importance in its oppening 7 and a lot more in it's topdeck than regular burn. This makes those "bad topdeck" cards even worse. I am not sure Mogg Fanatics do the cut here. I am pretty sure Sparkies don't.

We also have to have in mind baubles make instants waaaay better than sorceries. Gameplay towards optimizing mana usage should be a constant in burn playing, but gets extra value here.

Let me scrap a decklist now:

14 lands

7-6 mountains
7-6 fetch lands
0-2 barbarian ring

4 Lightining bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4-0 Mogg Fanatic

4 Incinerate
0-3 Magma Jet
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyrostactic Pillar

3 Cave-In
3-4 Fireblast

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

This deck should have its second Fireblast as a dead card. Yet, maybe the fourth one is still worth the slot, given we have Cave-ins to pitch it for in case we need to. Also it is safe burn from under Pillar (as is Cave-in).

Just so that i dont pass a wrong idea of my position regarding burn:
- I normally run baubleless. This post is an exercise;
- I run both 4 Flamebreaks AND a lone Cave-in. Aggro & Aggro-Control are everywhere here in Brazil. I run 19 Mountains to support turn 3 Break;
- I think Mogg is a No-brainer in most builds. In mine, at least.
- I used to have 2 Flame Rifts Maindecked. They are not just good against control, they are good against combo as well. Bad thing is you tend to end up dead anyway without Pillars. I am currently testing 2 Pillars maindeck, for combo is getting a good chunck of the field too. There are 2-4 Iggys and TESs at each 16-man tournament.

Nice Thread of yours. Made me rethink a lot of my stablished concepts about the deck.

[gosumog]

ok whoever says baubles r dead cards obviously doesnt read the whole card... the only reason this deck is bad is simply this: it COMPLETELY rolls to Chalice(1) dear god its disgusting =(. i was totally making this deck for my big $15 entry till i remembered chalice... ewwww ( this only applies to the straightforward, spark elemental build. i REALLY like the build right above my post with pillars main board. it looks godlike what are the loopholes? [chalice for 0 keke xD])

anyway im running this deck at a $15 entry fee place, top4 pool card draft includes alpha Badland ^.^ so help me out and ill mail each of you a small chunk of it when i rip it up infront of everyone

19 mtn
4 mogg fan

4 lightbolt
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
4 fireblast
4 magma jet
4 incinerate
3 flamebreak
3 flame rift ( 3+3+3+3+3+4 = 19, can u see what im saying? yeah i realize mog fans and painlands make this point less significant)
3 sulfuric vortex (i expect pulses mainboard, and this turns bad games into good games ^.^)

side (this is where im confused and need help)
1 4th vortex
4 anarchy
4 pillar
3 REB
3 Pyroblast

now looking at some lists i dont see Cop:R or Worship in many sides, is Anarchyx4 worth it for my TERRIFYING match against angel stompy? it may not look bad on paper but when u see that jitte, u know u just lost the game, save you play a vortex and it doesnt get disenchanted, which is gonna happen ^.^

im new to legacy so i dont know what to expect, and my shop is very unorthodox.. they try to mix up the meta because were used to many staple good players. im hoping burn will blow them out with its screw your cantrip attitude.

can i get some insight? is 6 REBs good enuf to stop solidarity? Should i make room for a 4th Flamebreak in the side/main to end games against goblins/thresh? what about that fourth vortex, is that really neccesary? i think i want to fit in some PoP

im looking to free up slots and right now im looking at Anarchy, Flamerift, and my sided Vortex ..

oh yeah what do i do against enchantress Solitare, (or 48 land or whatever the version is called with a bunch of land) i heard a LOT of people are playing this at the meta.

bigbear, i know you got some good advice on meta sideboard for burn =P out with it, im trying to win this tourney

Proper grammar, spelling, capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Use them ihenceforth. - Zilla

[burkey_boy]

well you need answers to solitary conefinement for enchantress, im not sure what 43 land runs. so anarchy is good for that

im not sure if vortex is good enough MB, also flamebreak is really important in those gobs matchups. so i think 4 is the go

Proper grammar, spelling, capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Use them ihenceforth. - Zilla

[ClearSkies]

If you are so afraid of Chalice for 1, why not run Shattering Sprees or Meltdown in SB? Even Engineered Explosives might be useful.

I like Vortex in Mainboard since it stops people from "running away" (Gaining life) from zero life. It also puts people on a definite clock, if you run out of burn in your hand, or you need the last few points of damage to win.

[bigbear102]

You are basically looking at a meta where Meltdown and Price of Progress are absolute gold. 43 land will lock you out with Chalice, but dropping Meltdown and then PoP will be a 2 card combo for the win.

Enchantress is a hard matchup, but from the way you described it i'm thinking you actually meant 43 land. If you do play against enchantress, again, PoP is a very good card. Pillar is actually the best card to bring in against them though. LonelyBaritone is on my team, and we have played the match a lot. If I get turn 2 Pillar, he can't win the game. It is that simple. Ok, he's now claiming that I win "a lot" of the games when I get turn 2 pillar.

Angel Stompy is a tough matchup when the get Jitte online, so Meltdown comes in against them. I haven't played Anarchy in my board for years now, as CoP:Red sucks against this deck. If you think there is going to be a lot of AS, then Anarchy isn't a bad choice, but I would not have more than 3 in the board, as it costs 4 and you should never have to cast it twice.

At your maindeck, I would personally drop at least one Vortex for the 4th Flamebreak. It helps immensely against goblins. Vortex isn't a bad card, just not my favorite, but it does help a lot against Jitte. I played it at GenCon in 05 and it was decent for me.

My board would be in your meta:

3x Anarchy
4x Pillar
4x Meltdown
4x Red Blast

I would not play Anarchy personally, but if you want to that would be my board.

[gosumog]

i decided right after the post to -1 flame rift for +1 flamebreak. Any opinions on 2 flamerift main as opposed to anything else (like PoP maybe, or some incinerate cousin)?

yeah i can see meltdown would take care of my problems that i had anarchy for. So i replace anarchy with 2-3 PoP and 1-0 REB. What would i bring in meltdown against besides the ones mentioned?

[bigbear102]

I would go -1 Vortex. It is slow, and Flame Rift speeds up your clock by a turn.

Meltdown comes in against anything with artifacts really. It hoses Affinity, stops Chalice, and comes in against Equipment. The main uses are Chalice and Equipment. Other than that, you probably won't know you need it till game 3 against people who side in chalice against you. I know when I play burn I win the majority of my game 1's, so it's not a problem losing game 2 to a boarded chalice, cuz then game 3 you have the answer.

[gosumog]

With 2 vortex main, and 0 side, how do i deal with pulse? Pillars, and side out the flame rifts? i worry because i dont know if pillar is good against those matchups besides stopping pulse, and pillar would end up killing me when they swing with priests/knights.

also when racing combo, what do i side out for REB/pillars? vorex/flamebreak/rift bolt, or maybe magma jet?

MAIN
2 vortex
3 flame rift
4 flamebreak
SIDE
1 Vortex
2 Pyroblast/2 REB
4 Pillar
4 Meltdown
2 PoP

am i being too scared of life gain? can i play around it?
How does meltdown targeting work in regards to Chalice, artifact lands? any other scenarios i am forgetting. Does X = 0 to meltdown i guess is the question

[redmage]

With 2 vortex main, and 0 side, how do i deal with pulse? *...snip...* am i being too scared of life gain? can i play around it?

I guess it depends on how much life gain you reasonably expect to encounter. If it really is that big of an issue in your meta (more than just 1 or 2 decks); Sulfuric Vortex, and/or Flames of the Blood Hand are probably the best options available, but both have their own "pros & cons".



also when racing combo, what do i side out for REB/pillars? vorex/flamebreak/rift bolt, or maybe magma jet?

I'd keep the Rift Bolts in; they're still a pretty fast turn 1-2 play (when you suspend them). Your 3CC options should probably be sided out first (vorex/flamebreak). After that; Magma Jets aren't a bad option either (2 mana for 2 dmg is a bit slow while trying to "race" combo). The final option would be to side out your Mogg Fanatics. They're generally useless vs. combo after turn 1; however, you might want to keep a few Fanatics/Jets in, if you suspect Dark Confidants, so that you don't have to use your "business spells" against them.



How does meltdown targeting work in regards to Chalice, artifact lands? any other scenarios i am forgetting. Does X = 0 to meltdown i guess is the question

Meltdown doesn't "target". It just destroys all artifacts that have a converted mana cost of "X" or less. X= whatever you set it at when you cast the spell (while it's "on the stack"). If they have a Chalice @ 1, then you can play Meltdown for :1::r: (or anything higher), and Meltdown will still destroy it.

Another solid option vs. Chalice, & equipment, is Shattering Spree. While a Chalice @ 1 will counter the "origional" Spree; it doesn't stop/counter any of your "replicated" copies. Also, Shattering Spree kills Jittes for less mana than Meltdown does; and, if you replicate it, they need to Force/Daze/Counter each individual copy (instead of just countering a single Meltdown).

Edit: I just re-read your question and I think I understand what you mean in regards to "X". While an X spell is "on the stack"; "X" = whatever you cast it at (so a Chalice @ 1 would have a converted mana cost of :2: while it's being played). Anywhere else (besides being "on the stack"), "X" = :0:. So the answer would be yes; Meltdown does see the X's, on a Chalice of the Void, as :0:'s while it's in play.

[bigbear102]

Against non-blue combo you take out 4 Fanatic for 4 Pillar. Against solidarity you take out 4 fanatic, 2 Vortex, 2 Flamebreak

You don't need REB for most combo anymore, it is all black/red based.

@redmage: YOU NEVER BOARD OUT MAGMA JET. It is 2 mana for 2 damage and 2 cards. It is the only card selection the deck has, and is extremely important, especially when you are racing. I would rather drop it turn 2 and not see 2 more mountains, than double bolt them and then draw 2 mountains.

[redmage]

@redmage: YOU NEVER BOARD OUT MAGMA JET. It is 2 mana for 2 damage and 2 cards. It is the only card selection the deck has, and is extremely important, especially when you are racing. I would rather drop it turn 2 and not see 2 more mountains, than double bolt them and then draw 2 mountains.

I guess we'll have to "agree to disagree" then. Personally, I run few enough lands that I'm not really all that worried about hitting 2 mountains in a row; so I'd rather keep in my higher damage-to-mana ratioed cards; however, I currently don't run Fanatics; so Jet is often one of the the next cards that I begin to side out while "racing combo" (if/when I decide that I need room beyond just siding out my "3cc sweepers" & a cantrip or 2). You may "never" side them out with your build, but I've never had any issues siding out 1-2 with mine. Don't get me wrong; Jet can be a great card, but I rarely want to see more than one, and often; I don't even want/need the "one" if I do see it.

[Tacosnape]

Magma Jet is utter crap.

Seriously? If Burn played burn spells that all actually had the correct mana-to-damage ratio then it wouldn't need Magma Jet. All Magma Jet does is hypothetically cause you to not run out of steam.

Burn doesn't lose by running out of steam. Burn loses by being outraced.

Burn loses by either getting out-aggroed, out-comboed, or having a deck reach a state where it can handle all the burn you can throw at it (IE, an active Jitte, a Counter-Top, etc.)

Magma Jet is a problem here, not a solution. It does nothing to help any of these three scenarios. Every game you think you lose by topdecking a mountain at the last possible scenario is a game you would have won if you played cards that actually dealt the appropriate amount of damage. 2 mana on turn 2 should be doing 4-6 damage, not 2 damage.

Magma Jet is a card for Red-splash creature-based aggro and aggro control decks. Not for burn.

[redmage]

Magma Jet is utter crap.
*snip*
All Magma Jet does is hypothetically cause you to not run out of steam.


I'm not sure that I'd go that far; however, it is a part of Burn's "control package" vs. strong aggro: Fanatic, Jet, and Flamebreak/Cave-In. None of which are are all that optimal when you're truly "racing", but they are/were a "necessary evil" in a meta with a strong Goblins presence. Especially with there being a lack of the "proper" 3-for-1's, and 4-for-2's that the deck would ideally like.

Jet's biggest strength (in a deck so "light" on mana) is to assure a turn 3 land drop; thus, setting up your Flamebreak. That's one of the main reasons it's on my list of possible things to side out in any match where Flamebreak isn't needed.



If Burn played burn spells that all actually had the correct mana-to-damage ratio then it wouldn't need Magma Jet.

There's the kicker. Ideally we want/need four "3-for-1's", two "4-for-2's", and 3 lands in our first 9 cards. That means a deck would need roughly 27 "bolts", and 13 "4-for-2's". Frankly, the cards needed to fulfill those quantities havn't been printed yet. We've only got 20 good "bolts" (Spark Elemental doesn't count because it gives a viable target, nullifying our virtual card advantage, to what would otherwise be "dead" creature kill in the opponent's hand), and the majority of the available 4-for-2's are quite conditional; thus, we're left to fill the void with pieces from the "control package", 3-for-2's, some cantrips, and/or things like Vortex/Browbeat.

Incinerates (and their brethren like T. Bolt) are "just as good" as a 4-for-2 if the opponent cracks a fetch. I don't like the Baubles because the instant/sorcery ratio is slanted too far towards sorceries; however, I do like Street Wraith, but they can add up pretty quickly when our second best (i.e. "guaranteed") 4-for-2, Flame Rift, deals 4 to ourselves as well. I don't see enough life gain (in my meta) to justify Vortex, but I do think that Browbeat is deceptively good.



Burn doesn't lose by running out of steam. Burn loses by being outraced.

However, you can "run out of steam" if you're facing counterspells, or if you're forced into the control role for too long without the proper tools (the latter is really only an issue vs. Gobs).

[gosumog]

3-4 PoP
3-4 spree (i prefer this over meltdown because it can dodge counters AND chalice, is there any decks id side in artifact hate in that run counters? or i might just go back to meltdown)
3-4 pillar (do you run 4 to make sure you drop it turn 2? because ive noticed with 2 out i cant cast spells. Is there a match where you would want 2 out?)
4-5 REB

im gonna use anarchy at my local shop because me and my friend placed 1/2nd with burn decks Lol, im expecting a lot of hate next week. (newbs playing tier 1 and mad they lost to burn 2 weeks in a row)

so what would i side against landstill, same as solidarity? why do you take out fanatics against solidarity (i thought they were a 5-for-1 on turn 1)?

[redmage]

3-4 PoP
is there any decks id side in artifact hate in that run counters?

It depends on your meta. Jittes/Chalices have crept in & out of decks like Thresh, Faerie Stompy, MeatHooks, Hanni Fish, etc.



3-4 pillar (do you run 4 to make sure you drop it turn 2? because ive noticed with 2 out i cant cast spells. Is there a match where you would want 2 out?)

As long as you've got enough Mts. & Fireblasts in your deck; you can still win with 2 out; however, I'd generally only drop 2 vs. combo because most combo decks have the ability to bounce/destroy one fairly easily, and then win. Overall, dropping a 2nd pillar is a very "gamestate dependant" choice.



so what would i side against landstill, same as solidarity?

Side in, or side out? Vs. Landstill I'd bring in PoP first (useless vs. solidarity). Beyond that; you could bring in REB/Pyro to counter/destroy their SB Mages, counter their draw spells, and/or to push through your final burn spells. Overall, Landstill has a LOT of "dead" cards against you in game 1. Things like Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict, Pernicious Deed, and Crime/Punishment do "nothing" against you. As for siding out; it's pretty much the same as it is vs. Solidarity. Your Fanatics' greatest strength would be to occasionally block something, but (with the amount of creature hate that Landstill packs) it's not likely that they'll get the chance; however, it depends on the opponent's SB strategy. If they side out all of their creature hate, then your Fanatics may be able to give you a block or 2.



why do you take out fanatics against solidarity (i thought they were a 5-for-1 on turn 1)?

Personally, I don't currently run them, but their main issue is that they only really "shine" when they're played on turn 1. Other than that; they're bad topdecks, and (even with a full playset MD) you've only got a "less than 20% chance" of having one in your opening hand.

[bigbear102]

Fanatic comes out against Solidarity after Flamebreak because it doesn't reliably deal enough damage if topdecked after turn 2.

You board in 4 Pillar so that you have it early. The theory that 4 of a card is one you want in your opening hand is the theory used here. 3 will get you one early, but against combo turn 2 is sometimes too late, so you definitely don't want to wait to draw it. I would really only ever play 2 against Storm combo, or if they are low enough life that it will kill them with the next spell cast.

@Tacosnape: Have you ever played burn? Seriously, I don't want speculation from the other side of the table, have you played burn consistently for a period of time? If you have, then you know that the quality of the cards you draw is the important factor. Like Redmage said, there aren't enough quality burn spells to fill the deck out. Magma Jet is a spell that gets you to the quality cards, and also adds to the strategy.

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flame Rift
4x Incinerate
4x Fireblast
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Magma Jet
3x PoP
3x Flamebreak
18 Land

If you can give me a better grouping of cards for damage to mana ratio that doesn't scoop to goblins then let me know, cuz I missed some cards somewhere. Your whole point is suggesting that we are playing the wrong cards, if you know the right ones then enlighten me. I believe most everyone agrees that Magma Jet is a staple in burn right now. How else do we get to the quality cards?

[slyfer]

I completly agree with BigBear.
magmajet is a staple. If you play the deck you see that one of the risk of loosing is that oppoent stabilize at low life, while you topdeck mountains. If you just hit a magma jet, you can avoid this or lesser the risk (if you see 2 burn ok, but if 2 mountain you are still fine!). Magma jet brings you time towars better "quality" that is "more burn" that is "low risk of topdecking lands".

As regards the maindeck mine like bigbear except:

19 lands = 17 mountain + 2 barbarian ring.
Ring are very strong, they made me won 2 games out of 20 that would have been lost. So they deserve a slot

Then I don't play rift (1R sorcery 4 burn to every player) because it's weak vs aggro deck, it's strong only vs control, but you just beat control with the rest of the deck.
For example, think about goblin. Usually you need to cast flamebreak (-3) and you take some hits. Goblin are very much (more than 25 creatures) and you cannot waste burn on creatures.
So taking -4 or -8 life point is crucial... I prefer flame of the blood hand 3x (i play 1 more land)

As regards sideboard... actually it depends on metagame very much because if burn is NOT expected, you won't suffer thins like chill, warmth, circle of protection, ivory mask ,etc... so anarchy can be omitted.
In my metagame, only 1 person plays (and not always) angel stax and only 2 people in italy play sea stompy. So I won't need massive artifact destruction. the only artifact generally played that hurts is jitte.
Anyway I suggest don't play shattering spree, because vs stacker your manabase is hurted a lot among tangle wires, triniphere, chalices (set at 1 still negates 1 copy). The best artifact removal is rack and ruin or crash (take 1 mana, crash + burn, etc...). The main problem vs stacker is armageddon and smokestack.
If they don't play armageddon maindeck or side, the match up is fair.

PS: play price of progress maindeck!!! many times it's 4 damage for 2 mana only!! it's huuge! :)

[Iranon]

I'm sorry for the wordiness, but the recent points about Magma Jet made me want to update an overview about Barbecue Theory that I had lying in a drawer for quite some time... if you don't want to read a categorisation (is that a word?) of just about any playable spell in the deck, skip right to the end, past the asterisks.




Playable cards in Burn


1.) The Staples:

Magma Jet greatly smoothes the way the deck plays, Flamebreak singlehandedly ensures strategic superiority to weenie aggro (Mogg Fanatic also helps here) and Magma Jet smoothes out your draws quite nicely although its status as a staple is the most debatable of the list. The others are simply too efficient to cut.

Lightning bolt
Chain lightning
Lava Spike
Rift Bolt
Mogg fanatic
Magma jet
Flamebreak
Fireblast




2.) The wannabes - when nothing but the second best will do.

The following spells are either slightly on the expensive side for what they do or have drawbacks disproportional to their benefits when compared to the staples. Some are quite good in their own right, others need strong reasons for inclusion.

Seal of Fire
Shock
Incinerate
Thunderbolt
Chain of Plasma
Volcanic Hammer
Flame Rift
Fork
Flames of the Blood Hand
Browbeat



3.) One-hit wonders

3-for-1, 5-for-2 and 6-for-3 is as good as they come. Running them can, however, give your opponent relevant cards and they won't always get through. They are generally considered inferior to straight burn.

Spark elemental
Keldon Marauders
Ball lightning



4.) Doomsday Devices - baubles and friends.

The baubles essentially allow you to run a 52 card deck and enable a few more options. Getting the most use of them requires a somewhat painful mana base (fetch lands, barbarian rings), and drawing into sorcery speed burn when you intend to kill can slow the deck down. Whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks is uncertain; Bauble Burn has a small but dedicated following. Street Wraiths, while not connected to artifacts, fits right in with the rings and generally does the same things for the deck.

Urza's Bauble
Mishra's Bauble
Barbarian ring
Shrapnel Blast
Street Wraith (Honourable Mention)



5.) Ouch. Ouch. Ouch! - reusable damage

Burn has an annoying tendency to almost kill the opponent only to run out of gas. Reusable damage sources seem the perfect option with the added bonus of circumventing some plays that cripple conventional Burn decks (Chalice, Countertop engine, life gain). However, most of the cards in this bracket slow down your goldfish time, give an opponent relevant cards and need to be drawn at the right times in the right quantities to be anything but a hindrance. They require extensive tweaks to be even worthy of consideration and the advantages rarely outweigh the drawbacks.

Cursed scroll
Grim lavamancer
Magus of the scroll
Genju of the Spires
Pulse of the forge
Sulphuric vortex



6.) Eat Embers, Sucker - Maindeckable Hate

These could all be filed under a different category, however, they are liable to suck royally against many decks. On the other hand, they can steal games almost on their own.
Cave-In is generally an inferior sweeper with the benefit of handling a dozen goblins on turn 1 even when on the draw. In decks that sacrifice soft benefts for increased damage-per-card/mana output, they can be also contribute to a fast kill and might get the nod over Flamebreak for that reason alone.
Ankh of Mishra and Price of Progress play merry hell with colourful and fetch-happy mana bases. Pillar greatly aids most of the more difficult match-ups, at the cost of being uncastable in many of the good ones. Listed for completeness' sake, I'd personally play another deck in metagames where it's a valid maindeck inclusion.


Cave-In
Ankh of Mishra
Price of Progress
Pyrostatic Pillar


***


What to do with them


A lot of Burn decks are badly built and unfocused.

A deck that simply wants to throw interchangeable and efficiently-costed fire at an opponent's face until they stop screaming doesn't need the filtering of Magma Jet. Smoothing out the mana/spell ratio might be worth the loss in efficiency once, but barring exceptional circumstances you never want to see it twice in a game. This might change if you bring in a lot of sideboard cards, but generally speaking it's simply not worth it.
If there is a profound difference between the spells - e.g. a version with a lot of maindecked hate or one that can switch gears to Mono-Red-Control with sweepers and recurring damage sources - gets a lot more mileage out of the card selection and Magma Jet can be thing that holds the deck together.
If you don't need it, don't run it.

Generally, any well-built Burn deck that doesn't run mostly staples and 'wannabes' either tries to take advantage of a known metagame or exploits synergies. I can't really say much about the former without entering the realms of speculation, but for the latter it's helpful to formulate a goal, start with the thing that helps to achieve it and then fill the remaining slots with cards that aid that sub-strategy. Instead of giving mostly redundant decklist, I'll just outline the design choices of some possible card combinations beyond the staples:


Example 1: We want to win quickly and reliably. No fancy control tools or creatures, as few inefficient cards as possible.... so Fanatics and Jets go straight out of the window.
Baubles and Street Wraith essentially increase the density of efficient spells. Since ******** will generally be achieved before the game is over, Barbarian Ring doubles as both mana source and damage source, increasing consistency. A few fetch lands fill the yard and also have minor synergy with Mishra's Bauble. The slowtrips give instants a larger edge over sorceries so Incinerate goes in (a card I normally hate as it shows a 'I wish there were more bolts and can't be arsed to abuse powerful synergies' approach). So does Price of Progress if the metagame allows.
For the last few slots, Fork is worthy of consideration as is Flame Rift despite its sorcery status - both further bolster our chance of killing turn 3. For a sweeper, we run Cave-In - on mana-light hands, it can help a quick kill. None of these is without problems in multiples, but we fill all empty slots with 2 each.
The resulting deck is fast, consistent and translates its excellent goldfish performance directly into actual play (no permanents). On the downside, it's a little on the painful side and vulnerable to explosive Aggro on the draw.


Example 2: We want a fast and reliable goldfish without squandering life points... the creatures deliver just that.
Again, Flamebreak is replaced by Cave-In: We want the ability to clear the board and play our creatures on the same turn, and it also leaves Keldon Marauders alive. We don't have the room for a full playset of creatures and the staples since we shouldn't go below 18 lands. Magma Jet, Rift Bolt and Keldon Marauders are likely candidates for trimming since we have too many suboptimal topdecks the turn we wish to kill.
We achieved the objective at the cost of opening ourselves up to creature removal, but most of that comes in the form of Swords to Plowshares or Burn - all relevant anyway.


Example 3: We want tactical flexibility by recurring a non-creature damage source... without wrecking our goldfish record too badly. Pulse of the Forge fits the bill very well.
For it to be reusable, we need to either hurt ourselves or use delayed damage spells. Rift Bolt, Flame Rift and Seal of Fire do just that. Again, we don't have the room for a playset of each; Magma Jet and Seal of Fire are trimmed to 3 each because drawing a fistful of 2-damage spells is bad no matter how convenient their soft benefits are.
In terms of speed, the deck is average at best, but it rarely ever runs out of gas and can use its Burn on creatures liberally if needed (Lackey, True Believer, Meddling Mage... often a necessary evil) without slowing down to a crawl. It also forces non-control decks to 'win big', which can be a problem for Combo and further opens Aggro up to the sweepers.



The three decks above play quite differently in pracice, and the card choices are internally consistent. I'm not saying those are the best builds ever, but I'd put each and every one of them over a version that fills its slows with progressively worse bolt-replacements.

[Tacosnape]

@Tacosnape: Have you ever played burn? Seriously, I don't want speculation from the other side of the table, have you played burn consistently for a period of time? If you have, then you know that the quality of the cards you draw is the important factor. Like Redmage said, there aren't enough quality burn spells to fill the deck out. Magma Jet is a spell that gets you to the quality cards, and also adds to the strategy.

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flame Rift
4x Incinerate
4x Fireblast
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Magma Jet
3x PoP
3x Flamebreak
18 Land

If you can give me a better grouping of cards for damage to mana ratio that doesn't scoop to goblins then let me know, cuz I missed some cards somewhere. Your whole point is suggesting that we are playing the wrong cards, if you know the right ones then enlighten me. I believe most everyone agrees that Magma Jet is a staple in burn right now. How else do we get to the quality cards?

I have been playing burn for 11 years. Long enough for you? I wrote an entire essay on Burn once in college for extra credit in a mathematics class (My teacher played magic). Not even kidding. In order for Burn to be consistently successful you need to have a specific mana-to-damage ratio averaged across all your cards. A condensed version of the principles behind it can be found several pages back in this thread somewhere.

Without catching a Flamebreak, which earns its slot despite the damage ratio by buying you multiple turns on occasion, or dropping into the awful strategy of trying to play control, you only have a limited number of mana with which to deal 20 damage.

Dealing 2 damage for 2 mana is a horrible, horrible idea. If there are insufficient cards to run, run the baubles.

As for the rest of that list, it looks pretty solid. I don't always maindeck Price of Progress either, just depends largely on the metagame.

[gosumog]

im hesitant to main PoP, and on side wont a good player predict me putting it in and start fetching for better lands? Still, i like the idea of 4 on side. What should i drop 1 of to make for PoP if that is my decision

4 pillar
4 spree
4 REB
3 Pop

there needs to be a thread for playtesting, im sick of newb.dec

[Tacosnape]

im hesitant to main PoP, and on side wont a good player predict me putting it in and start fetching for better lands? Still, i like the idea of 4 on side. What should i drop 1 of to make for PoP if that is my decision

4 pillar
4 spree
4 REB
3 Pop

there needs to be a thread for playtesting, im sick of newb.dec

Cut a Pillar. In fact, I'd cut all four in favor of a fourth PoP and three Pithing Needles.

[bigbear102]

I would drop a REB, as they are normally good in the same matchups.

@Tacosnape: You have still failed to state why running a card that increases card quality is a bad idea. There are simply not enough quality cards. Magma Jet smooths out your draws. Playing burn for 11 years does not say much when you obviously dismiss one of the best cards to be printed for the deck in those past 11 years. After 16 Bolt and 4 Fireblast it is the first card to be put in the deck in an open meta. As for Bauble, look to the arguments against Street Wraith in CRET Belcher. With 8 Bauble, it is possible for the justification, but playing 4 bauble and no jet just gives you a 58 card, sorcery hating deck.

Also, have you ever played burn against combo??? Cutting Pillar for Needle is about the worst idea ever. If you are going to play Needle you cut spree, as it also turns off Jitte. Pillar is the absolute best card Burn has against fast combo. If you don't know that then I really know that you have not been testing this deck lately, and are spewing out information that you found to be relevant in the past. I have no doubt that you understand the mathematics behind a burn deck, but if you have been keeping up to date then you know that Pillar is one of the best board cards possible.

[Iranon]

There are 2 reasons to run Magma Jet:
1) search for relvant tech/avoid useless tech
2) general smoothing for consistency


1) is not going to be very relevant for you as your list is fairly standard. Hoping to find a Flamebreak in the face of explosive Aggro openings is about the extent of this; if you improved your efficiency by not having Magma Jet in the first place you might well race them. Not a sufficient reason.

2) Consistency simply means achieving the desired goal in the desired time. Magma Jet increases the odds to kill by turn 5, but that is nothing to get excited about. It is useless if you aim for a turn 3 kill and slightly decreases the odds of winning turn 4 as well, so for the purposes of the average Burn players' plans it reduces consistency.

Sometimes the soft benefits are worth it, but your deck doesn't strike me as one where that's the ase.

[bigbear102]

There are 6-10 cards in the deck that i posted that will be bad topdecks, plus the 18 land. In certain matchups and/or after the first few turns, you don't want to see: PoP, Flamebreak, Mogg Fanatic. This also works as the tech cards you pointed out, minus Fanatic.

Turn 1, Spike
turn 2 Bolt Spike
turn 3 Magma Jet
turn 4 Flame Rift, Fireblast, Bolt

This happened to me at GenCon in 2005. One exception being the Flame Rift was a Fork, but I changed it to the equivalent in the newer list.

Without the Jet I would have drawn a mountain on turn 4 instead of the Bolt, he would have dropped Solitary Confinement, and I would have lost the game.

So what cards do you guys suggest to replace Magma Jet with? Any of the Incinerate brothers don't actually speed your clock up, and unless you want to run Spark Elemental, there really isn't anything cheaper that is better.

Burn usually wants to goldfish its opponents, and that is usually what happens game 1. Mogg Fanatic does not fit into this exercise because he is not a spell, and requires time to do the damage. Rift Bolt is another possible wrench seeing as if you draw it as one of your last spells it also could need time, but we are not debating those cards now.

Usually, 7 spells will win you the game, sometimes 8. Fireblast and Flame Rift average out Magma Jet and almost Mogg Fanatic. PoP makes up the difference sometimes, and sometimes hurts us. Running any other 2cc 3 damage spell (pretty much the only burn we have left) does not add to the clock at all. Magma Jet is better than any of the other burn spells because of the essential uselessness of the extra 1 point of damage you get. Magma Jet pulls its weight by helping to eliminate drawing of excess useless cards in certain matchups, ones that add to the number of spells we need to play (Fanatic, PoP, and Flamebreak normally).

That is why I run Magma Jet, the extra damage from any of its possible replacements is not needed, and it helps smooth draws. If anyone could please give me a card that would be better than Magma Jet please do, don't just say it's bad, because if there were more burn spells available, I would agree with you guys, but as is, Jet is the best we got.

[Rialko]

I've been reading through some of this thread and figured I'd post what I run for burn to see if any of you could offer improvement ideas.

Mainboard

Land
20 Mountain

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Ball Lightning

Spells
2 Browbeat
2 Lava Spike
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard
1 Price of Progress
4 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Flamebreak

At the moment I'm working on getting my hands on/incorporating a couple cursed scrolls or forks. Other than that, any recommendations would be helpful.

[Cait_Sith]

Ball Lightning is bad. Cut it. Turn it into two more Lava Spikes. I'd then cut two mountains for 2 more Browbeat.

[Iranon]

I think your number of creatures is awkward. Enough to make removal decidedly non-dead for your opponent, while not following through and saying 'screw it, I'll just overpower them'.
Browbeat in a deck that includes 100% useless topdecks (Grim Lavamancer) also seems questionable. Lava Spike needs to be a 4-of.

Either toss the creatures entirely, or focus your strategy on them and have an identity crisis asking yourself if you're still playing Burn (Sparky, Ball, Marauder. Cave-In to make them connect and also wreck Aggro).

[Tacosnape]

I would drop a REB, as they are normally good in the same matchups.

@Tacosnape: You have still failed to state why running a card that increases card quality is a bad idea. There are simply not enough quality cards. Magma Jet smooths out your draws. Playing burn for 11 years does not say much when you obviously dismiss one of the best cards to be printed for the deck in those past 11 years. After 16 Bolt and 4 Fireblast it is the first card to be put in the deck in an open meta. As for Bauble, look to the arguments against Street Wraith in CRET Belcher. With 8 Bauble, it is possible for the justification, but playing 4 bauble and no jet just gives you a 58 card, sorcery hating deck.

Also, have you ever played burn against combo??? Cutting Pillar for Needle is about the worst idea ever. If you are going to play Needle you cut spree, as it also turns off Jitte. Pillar is the absolute best card Burn has against fast combo. If you don't know that then I really know that you have not been testing this deck lately, and are spewing out information that you found to be relevant in the past. I have no doubt that you understand the mathematics behind a burn deck, but if you have been keeping up to date then you know that Pillar is one of the best board cards possible.

God, it's like Wasteland in Landstill all over again.

I have clearly stated why I think Magma Jet sucks, you just choose not to listen. It's 2 mana for 2 damage. Its presence in your deck severely harms your chances of a turn 3 kill and actually reduces your chances of a turn four kill. The Baubles are a far superior option because they don't slow you down.

Pyrostatic Pillar stops what, exactly?

Against Solidarity: They'll counter it, bounce it, or Hydroblast it.
Against Epic Storm: Tendrils of Agony can get around it, Empty the Warrens is too fast for it.
Against Belcher: Empty the Warrens is too fast for it, Charbelcher is unaffected by it. Needle on Belcher is better here.
Against Aluren: They'll Force or Deed it, but it might be decent here. Needle on Cavern Harpy's just as good.
Against Gamekeeper Salvagers: They'll Duress it, Therapy it, Deed it, or wish for a Harmonic Sliver and destroy it.
Against SI: Their entire deck is too fast for it.
Against Iggy Pop: Tendrils of Agony can get around it, Iggy Pop can bounce it.

Pyrostatic Pillar is garbage alone against Combo. And with Belcher on the rise, 4C Landstill sometimes sporting COP: Red, and Jitte as prominent as ever, Pithing Needle seems like a pretty damn good option to me.

[matelml]

I believe Pyrostatic Pillar is actually very good in burn. No it probably won't win you the game on it's own, but will deal 4 damage or more for 2 mana a lot the time. So you argue opponents can bounce or counter it. Since when are threats bad because your opponent can bounce or counter them? So you shouldn't be playing fireblast because they can counter or duress it anyway? If solidarity bounces it it did atleast 4 damage which is goood enough for 2 mana (and probably more). The same for living wish->harmonic sliver. Sure Tendrils combo can win even with the Pillar on the board but if you play some burn along with it becomes very hard. You have answers for Empty the warrens which easily gets around Pillar in the form of Cave-inn/Flamebeak. Pyrostatic pillar is not only decent to good against combo, against many kinds of control/slow aggro-control it's also good. I am not saying Needle is bad in the sideboard but Pyrostatic Pillar is also good.

[bigbear102]

Ok, well I guess we agree to disagree with Magma Jet vs Bauble. I believe it is a very strong card, as do most other people who play burn, so you play bauble and we'll play jet.

As for Pillar, I believe matelml hit the nail right on the head.

Solidarity isn't very prominent, and as already stated, they will take at least 4 from it.
TES has a very hard time with it, ask Bryant, he had to stack city damage, then sac gobs to plunge as to not lose.
It is weak against belcher, needle is better here.
Aluren is a goldfish
SI isn't played, and what is good against them if they go off turn 1-2?
IGGy pop is again like Solidarity, taking 4 minimum isn't bad.

I have to ask, what are you going to bring in against Salvagers Game that isn't going to be Duressed, therapied, or deeded????

[strom]

I have clearly stated why I think Magma Jet sucks, you just choose not to listen. It's 2 mana for 2 damage. Its presence in your deck severely harms your chances of a turn 3 kill and actually reduces your chances of a turn four kill. The Baubles are a far superior option because they don't slow you down.

Baubles can slow you down as well, especially when your top card is a sorcery or mana source, which will happen quite often.

[bruno_tiete]

I tested a bit with Bauble Burn, with 8 Baubles, fetchlands and Street Wraiths. The number of games and match-ups I played is indeed small, but it gave me better insight on a few issues to which I couldnt figure out solutions.

The first is, except for Lightining Bolt, 1CC burn is sorcery speed. This makes your Baubles Timewalk you a lot. The worst possibility being baubling into another bauble.

Baubles and Wraiths make it very hard to make mulligan decisions, as they present you huge Question Marks on what your opening hand really is.

The need for sorcery speed mana pushes you into cracking fetches asap, while your Mishra's Baubles tempt you to keep a nice card you peeked at on top of your library. This makes you waste mana or information.

The deck is even more prone to getting Chaliced out of the game than regular Burn builds.

I am back to 60-card decks. :)

On the current topics, I run 3 Magma Jets, as they can make your day, or break it when drew in couples. The main reason is the added reliability on Flamebreak mana. I could see it being dropped in Cave-in builds, but I guess it would still be worth its slots.

Pyrostactic Pillar is a device to give you time against combo. Its not supposed to say I win. It's supposed to say, "well, while you handle it I will just burn you a little more".

On the taking out Moggs against Solidarity, you play the game with more than 60% cards from your opening hand. This means that average Mogg will deliver 4 damage (on the draw) >60% of the time, while having a close to 12% chance of dealing each one of 3,2 or that lousy 1 damage. (note these calculations are pretty rough) This should average around 3.3 damage on the draw, increased on the play. I dont see a reason to cut it out. I'd just drop Flamebreaks and PoPs. Am I missing something?

[bigbear102]

A lot of decks don't run PoP's main, and depending on the board you bring in up to 8 cards. Personally I just bring in Pillars, but if REB is in the board that is also needed. I play 3 Flamebreak, and assuming no PoP's, would need more cards to take out. Not that Mogg is bad in the Solidarity matchup, but it's just not as good as other cards, not reliably dealing 3 damage. It's not that Fanatic is bad, just not as good as the board cards, and better than the standard burn.

[gosumog]

can i get some opinions on what to side OUT in matchups (especially gro and thresh)

[slyfer]

vs threshold, I play maindeck PoP, I just side in the flamebreak#4. I don't need red elemental blast, the only problem is the green creatures, when they reach threshold you have a couple of turn only... Start with fanatic is good, because you keep in check the mongoose, try a flamebreak to make Nx1 (but stay alert to daze).
Overall it's a positive match up.
I would not side in pillar, because in many games I win with me at 2 life.... I would loose under my pillar.

I play 4 rack and ruin in side, I see that I can beat stacker only if he doesn't play armageddon. Of course PoP is huge main deck in this match up.
I could not cast shatter spree under chalices, spheres, tangle wires. Instant is superior. You remove the key artifact and just win.
Side out flamebreaks and a chain.

vs goblin I side in only the flamebreak #4 again

vs storm, side in 4 pillar, side out some burns (never side out fireblast)
When u side in pillar, don't side out fanatic...it makes damage under pillar.

Then I have 4 needle .... I am not sure about these slot.... can stop some things like chimeric idiol, or some tools of monoblack deck (don't know if they are much played). Belcher has spree, but needle could be a surprise factor.

the rest could be some anarchy

[gosumog]

great, thanks for the info.

no REB against thresh? anyone else agree on this? its nice to take out the FoW on your flamebreak, or to stop mental note. (doesnt seem like much but it stops their thresh and they dont draw, looks like great advantage to me)

isnt rack and ruin too expensive? is artifact hate really neccesary for burn? what are the pros/cons of Spree/RackRuin/Smash in actual matchups i would worry about (i kind of like this card in burn becuz of topdeck factor)

i have 1 PoP main, would i want 3 on side against Thresh meta? also, 4 flamebreak/19 land main deck against thresh meta?

im thinking of cutting REB because i never see solidarity. opinions?

all your help is appreciated

[zander1]

Has anyone tested ensnaring bridge??
It seems pretty good to me against jitte, piledriver, exalted angel...
And with baubles you can control your number of cards in your hands easily.

[KillemallCFH]

Has anyone tested ensnaring bridge??
It seems pretty good to me against jitte, piledriver, exalted angel...
And with baubles you can control your number of cards in your hands easily.Yeah, Ensnaring Bridge is f'ing awesome in Burn. The list my friend uses, which came in 2nd at the last tournament in Hadley (37 people), runs 2 MD and either 1 or 2 SB.

[DURESSyou92]

how many browbeats should i be playing? Ive heard from some people that its bad but ive found that the pronblem with burn is that it runs out of steam right before your about to win.

[ClearSkies]

Yeah, Ensnaring Bridge is f'ing awesome in Burn. The list my friend uses, which came in 2nd at the last tournament in Hadley (37 people), runs 2 MD and either 1 or 2 SB.

How about this list, if you don't mind?

I tested Ensnaring Bridge quite a few times, and I always found it to be completely unnecessary. If you have low amount of cards in hand, and opponent isn't near death, you are probably losing. If you have a high amount of cards in hand, ensnaring bridge doesn't do much.

Also, drawing an ensnaring bridge when it could have been a burn isn't very good, at least the several times I tested it. Free time walks for opponents is pretty bad when you trying to race your opponent.

Often at times, if you going to play Ensnaring Bridge, you can't play burn spells during that turn because you don't have mana for it.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you have low amount of cards in hand, and opponent isn't near death, you are probably losing.You mean it will help you when you're losing? That seems like a good reason to run a card.

It would also be good against Tarmogoyf, which I assume is a problem for this deck.

[redmage]

how many browbeats should i be playing?

Depends on your deck's Land count, and your "sweeper" of choice. If you run Cave-In, I'd say 2-3 (together, if your opponent takes 5, they can give you more options for turn 3 wins on the draw). If you prefer Flamebreak, then it's probably 0-2; however, if you run 18-20 land, you probably don't want more than 5-6 total 3cc spells in your deck.

[Curby]

I suppose it's bad because no one has talked about it, but what about Mindstorm Crown instead of Browbeat and/or Magma Jet? I know, I know... it doesn't replace itself until next turn, and never does direct damage to the opponent, and gives artifact hate some life.

However, it does provide more consistent drawing and makes baubles somewhat more playable (bauble into bauble is slightly less annoying, etc.).

To dodge artifact hate, you might only use it during games 2/3 hoping that they side out the hate, but then it fills your precious sideboard slots.

[DragoFireheart]

I suppose it's bad because no one has talked about it, but what about Mindstorm Crown instead of Browbeat and/or Magma Jet? I know, I know... it doesn't replace itself until next turn, and never does direct damage to the opponent, and gives artifact hate some life.

However, it does provide more consistent drawing and makes baubles somewhat more playable (bauble into bauble is slightly less annoying, etc.).

To dodge artifact hate, you might only use it during games 2/3 hoping that they side out the hate, but then it fills your precious sideboard slots.

The point of burn is to have a deck that runs pretty much the same every time while at the same time creating a virtual card advantage. Mindstorm Crown does not do either of those sadly.

It's funny though, I had someone over at the GameFAQs card forum trying to tell me that Browbeat is a worse card for burn than Ball Lightning. He also tried to tell me Scent of Cinder was a awesome card and could hit someone for 7 damage. I hope I'm not the only one that finds this silly.

[Wallace]

Here is the list I came up with, LMK what you think.

4 x Lightning Blot
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Lightning Helix
4 x Fireblast
3 x Flamebreak
3 x Price of Progress
3 x Flame Rift
3 x Grim Lavamancer

4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Plateu
8 x Mountain

SB
4 x Pyroblast
4 x Sirocco
3 x Pyrostatic Pillar
2 x Shattering Spree
2 x Earthquake

[TrialByFire]

the ensnaring bridge that Killemall was talking about in his friends list actually won him the game and the match. I had double silver knight with active jitte. He drops bridge (completely unexpected) and burns me with the last card in his hand. I procede to never be able to attack again and add more counters to my jitte, and he draws more burn than me and finishes me off. So yea ensnaring bridge is good. Especially since everyone plays aggro/control.

[DragoFireheart]

the ensnaring bridge that Killemall was talking about in his friends list actually won him the game and the match. I had double silver knight with active jitte. He drops bridge (completely unexpected) and burns me with the last card in his hand. I procede to never be able to attack again and add more counters to my jitte, and he draws more burn than me and finishes me off. So yea ensnaring bridge is good. Especially since everyone plays aggro/control.

The bridge will work if you expect a heavy creature environment. If it's heavy non-creature than it won't work.

Depends on the meta-game.

[bigbear102]

@Sac: Don't play Lavamancer, it's your only creature, and odds are it'll die before it does anything. Play Fanatic if you play a creature, especially if there is gobs in your meta, you should play 4 if you see lots of gobs. Flame
Rift is an iffy card, depends on your preference, I like it sometimes and I don't like it sometimes. Sirroco is also quite bad in this metagame, seeing as combo now plays 0 blue cards and or is 4 color. Landstill plays too many colors to make it worthwhile. Other than that the deck looks really solid.


The bridge will work if you expect a heavy creature environment. If it's heavy non-creature than it won't work.

Depends on the meta-game.

Spoken like my sig.... it's good when it's good and it's bad when it's bad.... not very good justification. I would definately not play it in burn. There is not enough of a justification. Play Flamebreak and just kill the dudes while dealing damage to your opponent. Bridge can be killed EOT and leave you with your pants down. If you do want to play Bridge I would suggest playing a lot of artifacts, more controlling. Possibly something like this:

4x Great Furnace
11x Mountain
4x Wasteland

4x Pyrite Spellbomb
4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Bridge
4x Lavamancer
4x Magus of the Scroll
4x Shrapnel Blast
4x Magma Jet
4x Bolt
4x Lava Spike
2x Fireblast
4x ???

[zander1]

Spoken like my sig.... it's good when it's good and it's bad when it's bad.... not very good justification. I would definately not play it in burn. There is not enough of a justification. Play Flamebreak and just kill the dudes while dealing damage to your opponent. Bridge can be killed EOT and leave you with your pants down. If you do want to play Bridge I would suggest playing a lot of artifacts, more controlling. Possibly something like this:

I didn't mean to play it main because it's just too bad against goblins when you've just one card in your hand and against combo it's quite unnecessary.
I just thought to sideboard it in against decks like ******** or other decks which win through big creatures. But the main reason why to play it seems to be jitte, because no flamebreak or cave-in is able to destroy an equipped silver knight.
The problem is, that almost everyone in my meta who plays a few creatures has a jitte and i couldn't do anything with my flamebreaks against it, because it gets countered, the creatures are too strong for it or it resolves and then they just play another creature. I think that the bridges are the right solution here. Against decks which might have disenchant I would also put some additional needles in the deck.
What do you mean?

[The Coming Curse]

how many browbeats should i be playing? Ive heard from some people that its bad but ive found that the pronblem with burn is that it runs out of steam right before your about to win.

I would say no more than 2 main deck(if you are playing bridges), thats what my buddies burn deck plays, and ive seen him get completely screwed over by browbeat when he has a bridge in play and it has cost him some games(in testing agaisnt me at least) but it has also drawn him the right amount of burn to win

[Curby]

What artifact destruction should Burn run in the sideboard? Meltdown and Shattering Spree are popular for the sweeping and uncounterable qualities respectively, but both die against a Chalice of the Void for 1, right? If Chalice is one of the more feared cards for this deck, it seems that Chalice-dodging is among the most important qualities of our shatter effects. Smash and Crash both dodge Chalice for 1 and 2, so how about those? Or are Meltdown and Spree good enough to use in the face of Chalice?

[Sims]

Spree gets around chalice, iirc.

Pay 2 to cast and replicate it, the replicated copy will still hit Chalice.

[Illissius]

Both of them dodge Chalice. Only the first copy of Spree is countered, and Meltdown is only countered if X = 0. (Meltdown is like Deed, not like Punishment)

[redmage]

What artifact destruction should Burn run in the sideboard?

Personally, I prefer Spree and/or Meltdown.



Meltdown and Shattering Spree are popular for the sweeping and uncounterable qualities respectively, but both die against a Chalice of the Void for 1, right?

Nope, both can "dodge" a Chalice@1. With Meltdown you just pay a minimum of :1::r: and you're fine (X = whatever you set it at, when you declare the spell, while it's on the stack). With Spree your replicated copies go directly on the stack so you're set because you don't actually "play" them (Chalice of the Void: "Whenever a player plays a spell...").



If Chalice is one of the more feared cards for this deck, it seems that Chalice-dodging is among the most important qualities of our shatter effects. Smash and Crash both dodge Chalice for 1 and 2, so how about those? Or are Meltdown and Spree good enough to use in the face of Chalice?

Meltdown and Spree are "good enough" for the most part. They give you the greatest opportunities to garner card advantage with 2+-for-1 plays; however, if you're looking for 'Instant' options, there's always Rack and Ruin and/or Overload. Smash just doesn't 'do enough' to justify its 3cc, and Crash leads players into wanting to sac Mountains that sould probably be saved for their Fireblasts instead.

[bigbear102]

Ironically, right after the post complaining that a Jitte carrying Silver Knight doesn't die to Flamebreak, someone asks about artifact destruction...

Silver Knight is a 10 turn clock, but should kill in 3-5 turns. You have to deal with the Jitte, not the Knight. Crash, Meltdown, and Spree are the best cards out there. If you are afraid of Equipment, Needle is also quite good. They are better than Bridge because you don't need to empty your hand, and are cheaper.

[Curby]

Nope, both can "dodge" a Chalice@1. With Meltdown you just pay a minimum of :1::r: and you're fine (X = whatever you set it at, when you declare the spell, while it's on the stack). With Spree your replicated copies go directly on the stack so you're set because you don't actually "play" them (Chalice of the Void: "Whenever a player plays a spell...").

A-ha. I'm too unused to the new rules, sorry for that. The Comprehensive Rules state:


203.3b When calculating the converted mana cost of an object with an {X} in its mana cost, X is treated as 0 while the object is not on the stack, and X is treated as the number chosen for it while the object is on the stack.

I do rather like the general counter-dodging of Spree though, and the fact that I can kill a SoFI for :r: instead of :3::r:. In other words, the resiliency of Spree and its mana efficiency for point destruction seems to put it over the board-sweeping capability of Meltdown. If my board only has room for one, is there a compelling reason/matchup/meta in which to run Meltdown over Spree? I guess Meltdown is good when facing a bunch of cheap artifacts like Lion's Eye Diamond in a combo deck, but we have things like Pyrostatic Pillar for such matchups. Thanks!

Edit: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Chalice+of+the+Void corroborates what redmage said about Spree+Chalice.


however, if you're looking for 'Instant' options, there's always Rack and Ruin and/or Overload.

Of course, Overload is countered by Chalice for 1 regardless of Kicker. Also, I don't think you can play Rack and Ruin when there is a single artifact in play (409.1c). When is an instant-speed shatter effect so crucial? Overall it seems that putting Sprees in the board is best.

[BullBar]

You are generally correct...SSpree>Meltdown in most cases. The main matchup where the reverse is true is Raffinity, a budget way for new players to enter the format, so consult your local metagame.

[Soto]

What hate does Burn have against Enchantments (Worship + Silver Knight)??

[DragoFireheart]

What hate does Burn have against Enchantments (Worship + Silver Knight)??

Anarchy. Red gets screwed on enchantment removal.

Also silver knight isn't an enchantment and isn't too much of a problem for burn. :tongue:

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Also silver knight isn't an enchantment and isn't too much of a problem for burn. :tongue:Except for that whole, Protection from Your Deck part.

Barbarian Ring?

[DragoFireheart]

Except for that whole, Protection from Your Deck part.

Barbarian Ring?

Why are you trying to shoot the knight anyways? All you need to kill is the equipment on him, be it the jitte or SoFI he is wielding.

It's a waste of time to kill him as the only card he can stop is your Mogg. Nevermind the fact that Anarchy can kill him.

Now Worship... thats a problem for burn.

[Wallace]

Hands down Shattering Spree is the better choice!!

4 x Pyro/Red Elemental Blast
3 x Spree
3 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Pyroclasm
1 x Price of Progress (4th Copy)
1 x Flamebreak (4th Copy)

This is the board I am running. Combo and Dead Guy are the decks 2 worst match ups. Pillar is great against both and Pyroclasm takes out goblins, from Warrens and most of the creatures that Dead Guy will run. Running a 4 mana spell in a burn deck is just stupid.

[Wallace]

What hate does Burn have against Enchantments (Worship + Silver Knight)??

Its burn just kill your oppenent before thay can drop worship!! Plus Barb ring will take down the knight in a pinch!

[Soto]

Alright, I had completely forgotten about Barbarian Ring. Do you play 4 maindeck? Can you post your list?

Also with a list not running barbarian ring, is the 4xGreat Furnace, 4x Pyrite Spellbomb, and 4x Shrapnel Blast effective?

[Wallace]

Alright, I had completely forgotten about Barbarian Ring. Do you play 4 maindeck? Can you post your list?

Also with a list not running barbarian ring, is the 4xGreat Furnace, 4x Pyrite Spellbomb, and 4x Shrapnel Blast effective?

This is my list:

4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Fireblast
3 x Price of Progress
3 x Flame Rift
3 x Flamebreak
3 x Rift Bolt

12 x Mountain
4 x Barbirian Ring
2 x Wooded Foothills
2 x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Pyroclasm
3 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Shattering Spree
1 x Price of Progress
1 x Flamebreak

As far as running the artifact build....You need to go all the way with to make it any good, build something like this...

4 x Wasteland
4 x Barbirian Ring
4 x Great Furnace
8 x Mountain

2 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Pyrite Spellbomb
4 x Grim Lavamancer
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Shrapnel Blast
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
3 x Ankh of Mishra
3 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Fireblast
2 x Price of Progress

[thefreakaccident]

I skipped last week, but apparently complete Jank used this deck to get first out of a field of aggro-control, plus little tidbits of everything else...

Mana Production
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox

The Beats
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Epochrasite
4 Dark Confidant

The Search
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Shrapnel Blast

The burn
4 Fling
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
2 Fireblast

[Wallace]

I skipped last week, but apparently complete Jank used this deck to get first out of a field of aggro-control, plus little tidbits of everything else...

Mana Production
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox

The Beats
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Epochrasite
4 Dark Confidant

The Search
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Shrapnel Blast

The burn
4 Fling
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
2 Fireblast

I guess you could call that a burn deck? :confused:

[DragoFireheart]

What he posted is NOT a burn deck.

[Soto]

Thanks for the lists. I don't think the artifact build is what I'm looking for but I will try it out a few times. The other list though is pretty much what I've been running -the fetches. Since you're running 20 lands, have you considered running Flames of The Blood Hand instead of ??? Flame Rift? You can pull of some nice tricks against Jitte in the late game where you have the mana.

[Wallace]

Thanks for the lists. I don't think the artifact build is what I'm looking for but I will try it out a few times. The other list though is pretty much what I've been running -the fetches. Since you're running 20 lands, have you considered running Flames of The Blood Hand instead of ??? Flame Rift? You can pull of some nice tricks against Jitte in the late game where you have the mana.

I don't like Flames of The Blood Hand just because it costs 3. If I was going to run a 3 mana burn spell it would have to be Char. Flames might be a board card though. See in the current Syracuse meta game you have to be ready for a lot of Land Still and Combo. I don't really have to worrie about Jitte. Keep me posted on how you do with the artifact build though. I will be running the first list in Eli's DLD this weekend. I will let you know how I do.

[Wallace]

Went 3-2-1 great day. Drew in last round to play in another event. Was up one game already. Lost to Thresh/Counter Balance (0-2-1) and to Breakfest (1-2) Breakfest diden't combo out lost to Tarmaghoyf both games. Had I drawn less land I prob have pulled it out against Breakfest. The Thresh/Counter balance came down to me drawing 2 Barb. Rings and nnneding a mountain for the win, drew game one with the Price of Progress. Game was close and game 3 he drew 3 x Blue Blast and two Force of will. Learned a lot, will post changes to deck as soon as I make them. :rolleyes:

[Curby]

Flames of The Blood Hand instead of ??? Flame Rift? You can pull of some nice tricks against Jitte in the late game where you have the mana.

Except they can gain life in response, right? No split second. =)

[Soto]

Yeah but you could also respond to their life gain by playing flames.

[Curby]

Yeah but you could also respond to their life gain by playing flames.

If I have 4 counters on my Jitte, I'll remove one at a time for life and let them resolve individually. The most that each Flames could do is stop the gain of 2 life each regardless of when they are played. Sometimes that's all that matters, and stopping 2 is more than other burn spells could do, but it's not as powerful as completely stopping Jitte lifegain.

Anyway, this will likely earn me a bunch of flames, but I did an informal card analysis on burn (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm). Lemme know what you think. =)

[zander1]

If I have 4 counters on my Jitte, I'll remove one at a time for life and let them resolve individually. The most that each Flames could do is stop the gain of 2 life each regardless of when they are played. Sometimes that's all that matters, and stopping 2 is more than other burn spells could do, but it's not as powerful as completely stopping Jitte lifegain.

Anyway, this will likely earn me a bunch of flames, but I did an informal card analysis on burn (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm). Lemme know what you think. =)

I think it's great!!
Maybe i'll start running 3 sonic bursts, because it helps against a 4th land, a 2nd fireblast or topdecking a bauble.

[Iranon]

Anyway, this will likely earn me a bunch of flames, but I did an informal card analysis on burn (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm). Lemme know what you think. =)

A nice individual assessment, but focusing more on individual power than synergy, which is in my opinion just as important. I wrote a lengthy post about that a while back (#592 on page 30; unfortunately I didn't really get any feedback for it); I think combining both would be a good way to start a guide about efficient Burn.

[Soto]

Sacearuse, I'd like to see your list. You mentionned in one of your posts the problem of Barbarian Ring with Fireblast, and I've encountered the same problems. I think we should lower the number of Barbarian Rings to 2 or 3. I've been testing with Flame Rift instead of Flames of the Blood Hands and I'm impressed, except for the times it comes out late game and it causes a draw (or loss).

Also since you're running a very small number of expensive cards, you could lower the number of lands you play (20) to about 18 (perhaps the 2 Rings), and add another burn spell...which I haven't figured out yet.

-Soto

[Wallace]

Sacearuse, I'd like to see your list. You mentionned in one of your posts the problem of Barbarian Ring with Fireblast, and I've encountered the same problems. I think we should lower the number of Barbarian Rings to 2 or 3. I've been testing with Flame Rift instead of Flames of the Blood Hands and I'm impressed, except for the times it comes out late game and it causes a draw (or loss).

Also since you're running a very small number of expensive cards, you could lower the number of lands you play (20) to about 18 (perhaps the 2 Rings), and add another burn spell...which I haven't figured out yet.

-Soto

Barb Ring is amazing!! The quote you are refering to was a specific game where I drew 2 rings early and forced the game 1 draw with rice of progress. You need to run 4 rings, ring was def. the MVP of the deck. You can run 18 or 20 land, if you run 20 make sure to run 4 fetch lands, with 18 you won't need them. As far as flame rift goes, CUT IT, the card is very under par. I added a forth Rift Bolt and Price of progress. I am messing with the build a little bit now and don't have my final list. I will post it in a day or two.

[zulander]

Has anyone tested out wheel of fate? Seems pretty good at refilling your hand.

[Wallace]

Has anyone tested out wheel of fate? Seems pretty good at refilling your hand.

to slow, no room for it.

[DragoFireheart]

I have thought about taking out Mogg for... something else.


Creatures:
4 Mogg Fanatic

Non-Creatures:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
3 Flamebreak
2 Browbeat

Lands:
19 Mountain

Mogg is a horrible top deck and is starting to seem lack-luster with all the Goyfs running around.

Maybe run Keldon Marauders? They always do 1 damage on the turn they are cast which makes them equal to a mogg in top-decking. They will always deal 2 damage when they vanish and have the ability to do 5 damage total. They cost 2 mana though.

[Wallace]

I have thought about taking out Mogg for... something else.


Creatures:
4 Mogg Fanatic

Non-Creatures:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
3 Flamebreak
2 Browbeat

Lands:
19 Mountain

Mogg is a horrible top deck and is starting to seem lack-luster with all the Goyfs running around.

:confused:

Mogg Fantastic is fine, I think it blocks Ghoyf for 1 turn and still does 1 damage. Not to mention it kills just about any first turn creature. I held off a Moongoose for 4 turns with 1 Fanatic. Many a Fanatic was throw in front of a Ghoyf too. Browbeat is ok but I think a burn spell in its place would work a little better. I think you really need to look at Rift Bolt too, I was only running 3 at the last DLD, I am no running 4. Its another 1 drop 3 damage burn spell.

[DragoFireheart]

:confused:

Mogg Fantastic is fine, I think it blocks Ghoyf for 1 turn and still does 1 damage. Not to mention it kills just about any first turn creature. I held off a Moongoose for 4 turns with 1 Fanatic. Many a Fanatic was throw in front of a Ghoyf too. Browbeat is ok but I think a burn spell in its place would work a little better. I think you really need to look at Rift Bolt too, I was only running 3 at the last DLD, I am no running 4. Its another 1 drop 3 damage burn spell.

Oh I do run 4 Rift Bolts. Take a look again at my decklist. :tongue:

So what other burn spells should I run? Should I try out the Keldon Marauders?

[Wallace]

Oh I do run 4 Rift Bolts. Take a look again at my decklist. :tongue:

So what other burn spells should I run? Should I try out the Keldon Marauders?

Oops! :laugh: You really need Price of Progress main deck. Great card! Another card I went from 3 to 4 on. I droped the Flame rifts in my Bure deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Oops! :laugh: You really need Price of Progress main deck. Great card! Another card I went from 3 to 4 on. I droped the Flame rifts in my Bure deck.

Hmmm... Lets assume my meta has lots of basic land decks.

Yeah I know, crazy huh?

Is there something I can use in place of Price of Broken Progress?

4 Mogg Fanatic

Non-Creatures:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
3 Flamebreak
3 [______]

Lands:
18 Mountain

[ClearSkies]

How does main decked Sulfuric Vortex sound, especially if some people like to play with gain life cards in your meta?

Sudden Shock is too slow right?
What about a Landslide as a 1 of?

[DragoFireheart]

OOOOH!

How about some old school super-secret tech?

Power Surge:

Enchantment

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, Power Surge deals X damage to that player, where X is the number of untapped lands he or she controlled at the beginning of this turn.

[Wallace]

Hmmm... Lets assume my meta has lots of basic land decks.

Yeah I know, crazy huh?

Is there something I can use in place of Price of Broken Progress?

4 Mogg Fanatic

Non-Creatures:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
3 Flamebreak
3 [______]

Lands:
18 Mountain

Ankh of Mishra is a great choice. It may find its way into my build. Ya know Iam from The cuse, nobody play basic land here!

[technogeek5000]

This seems like a cheap deck to build. Im trying to get my friend into legacy and i have about all the cards for this deck. What im realy looking for now is a list that everyone can agree on for the current meta game.

So lets start with the basics:

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 Fireblast
4 magma jet
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike

these are auto 4 of's, correct

Now for some of the other choices

3/4 flame rift
3/4 flamebreak
3/4 price of progress

Are these the best options for these slots. Also in the current meta game what should be 4 ofs and what should be 3 ofs.


The mana is something i have know experience with in this deck. My dad's old burn deck ran 17 at one point and all the way to 20.

18/19 Mountains

What is the right number for the list so far. Also are there any better options for mana (im sort of on a bugdet so i dont think chrome mox would work).

And finnaly the sideboard. I have no idea what other people run for this so im just gonna take a shot.

3/4 pyroclasm
3 shattering spree
1/4 ensnaring brigde
? red elemental blast
_________________

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Wallace]

This seems like a cheap deck to build. Im trying to get my friend into legacy and i have about all the cards for this deck. What im realy looking for now is a list that everyone can agree on for the current meta game.

So lets start with the basics:

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 Fireblast
4 magma jet
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike

these are auto 4 of's, correct

Now for some of the other choices

3/4 flame rift
3/4 flamebreak
3/4 price of progress

Are these the best options for these slots. Also in the current meta game what should be 4 ofs and what should be 3 ofs.


The mana is something i have know experience with in this deck. My dad's old burn deck ran 17 at one point and all the way to 20.

18/19 Mountains

What is the right number for the list so far. Also are there any better options for mana (im sort of on a bugdet so i dont think chrome mox would work).

And finnaly the sideboard. I have no idea what other people run for this so im just gonna take a shot.

3/4 pyroclasm
3 shattering spree
1/4 ensnaring brigde
? red elemental blast
_________________

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

All of the 4 of's you listed are fine. Magma Jet only does 2 damage for 2 mana so I actually cut it to 3. Flamebreak is great in the main, :r::r::r: for 3 damage and the chance to clear the board is great, I would run 3. Price of Progress is amazing in Legacy, I am now running 4 in the main. As for the rest of the slots: Mogg fanatic is a good choice, Ankh of Misura fits well, Cursed Scroll can work. I would really stay away from Flame Rift and look to play an instant in that slot. As for the mana base: You really need to run 4 Barbirian Ring's, the card is sick! If you run 20 land then run 4 Wooded Foothills/Bloodstained Mire or You can just run 18 Land with no fetchs. Ensnaring Bridge is whorable don't bother with it. The board all depends on the meta game. 4 Red Blasts are a staple, after that it really depends on where you play. Pyrostatic Pillar is really good aginst combo and good aginst contral, while Sulf. Vortex stops any life gain and has the added bonus of dealing 2 damage a turn. Pyroclasm can be run if you are expecting a lot of goblins or if there are a lot of combo decks winning with Empty the Warens. If you look a little earlyer in the thread you can view the list I ran to a 4-2 record last weekend in Eli's DLD. I am in the middle of making changes to the deck and I will post the new build as soon as I am done with it. Hope this helps.

[DragoFireheart]

I thought about main-decking Sulfuric Vortex. 1-2 at most.

Good idea?

[Wallace]

I thought about main-decking Sulfuric Vortex. 1-2 at most.

Good idea?

It could be. I had two slots open and threw in 2 Ankh of Misura. Vortex is nice but costs :1::r::r:. 3 mana could be a problem. It is only a 2 of though so it could work.

[DragoFireheart]

It could be. I had two slots open and threw in 2 Ankh of Misura. Vortex is nice but costs :1::r::r:. 3 mana could be a problem. It is only a 2 of though so it could work.

Well I do 19 lands instead of 8 to help with the slightly higher mana curve as I also run 3 Flamebreaks.

I love the art on the flame break card btw.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/Wallpaper_Flamebreak_1280x960.jpg

[Jak]

I want to build this deck because it is cheap. Hopefully it will be fun for me and my friends because having more decks is always fun. ANyways here is a list.

Lands
18 Mountains

Three Damage Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike

Four Damage Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift

Other
4 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
2 Browbeat

SB
4 Pyroblast
4 REB/Null Rod
4 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree

Thoughts?

[DragoFireheart]

I want to build this deck because it is cheap. Hopefully it will be fun for me and my friends because having more decks is always fun. ANyways here is a list.

Lands
18 Mountains

Three Damage Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike

Four Damage Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift

Other
4 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
2 Browbeat

SB
4 Pyroblast
4 REB/Null Rod
4 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree

Thoughts?

I would suggest getting Sulfuric Vortex into your sideboard for life-gaining decks.

-1 Flamebreak

3 Flamebreaks is all you need. You never want to see more than one in most games.

+1 Mountain

If you want to run 18 mountains then I suggest getting rid of the browbeats.

[Wallace]

I want to build this deck because it is cheap. Hopefully it will be fun for me and my friends because having more decks is always fun. ANyways here is a list.

Lands
18 Mountains

Three Damage Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike

Four Damage Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift


Other
4 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
2 Browbeat

SB
4 Pyroblast
4 REB/Null Rod
4 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree

Thoughts?


You need Barbarian Ring and flame rift is bad. I had 3 in the main and droped the all. You can really find a better spell.

[Wallace]

So here is my new Burn list:

4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Fireblast
4 x Price of Progress
3 x Flamebreak
2 x Ankh of Misura

11 x Mountain
4 x Barbirian Ring
4 x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Sulfuric Vortex
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Shattering Spree
1 x Flamebreak

[DragoFireheart]

So here is my new Burn list:

4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Fireblast
4 x Price of Progress
3 x Flamebreak
2 x Ankh of Misura

11 x Mountain
4 x Barbirian Ring
4 x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Sulfuric Vortex
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Shattering Spree
1 x Flamebreak

Have you ever had a problem with Rings being in the way of your Fireblast? [Not drawing 2 mountains]

[Soto]

List looks good. I was going through some cards earlier, and I came across Landslide. It seems pretty good as a 2-3of for the late game. Obviously not against decks with counterspells but otherwise looks pretty strong.

[DarkAkuma]

So here is my new Burn list:

4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Fireblast
4 x Price of Progress
3 x Flamebreak
2 x Ankh of Misura

11 x Mountain
4 x Barbirian Ring
4 x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Sulfuric Vortex
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Shattering Spree
1 x Flamebreak

Thats deffinantly to many Barb Rings for playing only 4 fetches, 0 baubles, 4 Price's and 4 Fireblasts.

In my bauble burn list I only run 2 rings, and that has felt just right. I tried 3 before, but drew them just a little to often.

Other then that, that looks like a good solid list. Price > Flame Rift. I hate that card, and anyone running Flame Rift needs to stop playing burn...

[bigbear102]

Jason: You are really going to kick yourself when you draw an Ankh late game and need a damage spell. It's not a card to just throw in your deck cuz you have slots open. You either play 4 or you play 0. Many of the decks in the format can run off of 2-3 land, including thresh, breakfast, ichorid, goblins and every other combo deck seeing play. If you're gonna play it you want it turn 2, so a 2 of just won't cut it. Play something like Chain of Plasma if you want the extra slots full, it'll deal the damage when you want it.

Also, with no goblins in the cuse meta at least, you can drop flamebreak from the main deck. It really isn't needed right now.

[Wallace]

Jason: You are really going to kick yourself when you draw an Ankh late game and need a damage spell. It's not a card to just throw in your deck cuz you have slots open. You either play 4 or you play 0. Many of the decks in the format can run off of 2-3 land, including thresh, breakfast, ichorid, goblins and every other combo deck seeing play. If you're gonna play it you want it turn 2, so a 2 of just won't cut it. Play something like Chain of Plasma if you want the extra slots full, it'll deal the damage when you want it.

Also, with no goblins in the cuse meta at least, you can drop flamebreak from the main deck. It really isn't needed right now.

He man thanks for the advice, The ankh's were just a place holder anyway. The flamebreaks were really good for me against 3 of the six people I faced in the DLD, none of which we goblins. I will stick with them for now and see how my next 2 or 3 tournoments go.

[DragoFireheart]

Jason: You are really going to kick yourself when you draw an Ankh late game and need a damage spell. It's not a card to just throw in your deck cuz you have slots open. You either play 4 or you play 0. Many of the decks in the format can run off of 2-3 land, including thresh, breakfast, ichorid, goblins and every other combo deck seeing play. If you're gonna play it you want it turn 2, so a 2 of just won't cut it. Play something like Chain of Plasma if you want the extra slots full, it'll deal the damage when you want it.

Also, with no goblins in the cuse meta at least, you can drop flamebreak from the main deck. It really isn't needed right now.

I would still keep the breaks since they can hit annoying crap that can't be targeted [Mongoose] and that can regen [Troll].

But yeah, the Ankhs need to go. At least with the Vortex you do damage every turn, which puts some serious pressure on control decks.

The other nice thing about the Vortex is that it normally gets around Counter-Top due to it having the odd 3cc, if that has any worth.

[Wallace]

I would still keep the breaks since they can hit annoying crap that can't be targeted [Mongoose] and that can regen [Troll].

But yeah, the Ankhs need to go. At least with the Vortex you do damage every turn, which puts some serious pressure on control decks.

Yeah twice during the DLD I killed multiple Moongeese and Trolls with break! BigBear what do you think about running 2 Cursed Scrolls in my 2 open slots? Right now I added 2 Sudden Shocks but I am lloking at adding the Scrolls.

[Soto]

I just took third at my local tournament of 19. I did get lucky with my matchups as my opponents weren't the most experienced of players but nonetheless i felt the good ran pretty well.

List:

16 3for1's
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
3 Flamebreak
1 Fork
2 Flames of the Blood Hands

18 Mountains
1 Barbarian Ring (couldn't get them before the tournament)

The lone fork allowed some epic plays of fireblast for 8. About the Barbarian Rings, I personally wouldn't run 4 because threshold doesn't come soon enough and lands might become a problem if you keep exploding your own. The Flames weren't spectacular and I feel like testing Landslide (2 or 3 ) and taking out a few lands for something like Thunderbolt. Since I'm only running flamebreaks as 3CC , 19 lands is a bit too much i think.

Opinions?

[Wallace]

I just took third at my local tournament of 19. I did get lucky with my matchups as my opponents weren't the most experienced of players but nonetheless i felt the good ran pretty well.

List:

16 3for1's
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
3 Flamebreak
1 Fork
2 Flames of the Blood Hands

18 Mountains
1 Barbarian Ring (couldn't get them before the tournament)

The lone fork allowed some epic plays of fireblast for 8. About the Barbarian Rings, I personally wouldn't run 4 because threshold doesn't come soon enough and lands might become a problem if you keep exploding your own. The Flames weren't spectacular and I feel like testing Landslide (2 or 3 ) and taking out a few lands for something like Thunderbolt. Since I'm only running flamebreaks as 3CC , 19 lands is a bit too much i think.

Opinions?

It is real easy to get thresh after you tap you mountains for mana, then sac them to cast Fireblast for free. They are great cuz people think that you don't and won't have thresh and BOOM 3 cards to the yard and you have thresh!

[Soto]

But no lands to use the Ring's ability....^^

[redmage]

But no lands to use the Ring's ability....^^

Ummmm...


...you tap you mountains for mana, then sac them....

Reading is tech. ;)

[Soto]

doh

[Lemuria]

So here is my new Burn list:

4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Fireblast
4 x Price of Progress
3 x Flamebreak
2 x Ankh of Misura

11 x Mountain
4 x Barbirian Ring
4 x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Sulfuric Vortex
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Shattering Spree
1 x Flamebreak

Ankh it's just great, but it's not a good idea run fetches while you run ankh

[bigbear102]

@Jason: I have never run Scroll in my decks, I just rely on winning before the mid-late game. Most of the time if the game gets to the point where scroll is good you have lost anyway. I would play another burn spell over it personally, but it is a solid card.

[redmage]

I would play another burn spell over it

Agreed.

Scroll is a better fit in mono-red control decks such as "Big Red". Your best bet, in Legacy, would be to run another 2 burn spells, test 2x Browbeats/Forks, or "thin your deck" by filling the leftover space with 2x Street Wraiths.

Also, 4x B-Rings is probably a bit high. You "never" want to see more than one of them, so 2-3 should be plenty.

[Iranon]

Only jumping on the bandwagon... but here the reason why Scroll sucks:

Sure, Burn wants many things, including a recurring damage source. However, it shouldn't compromise its goldfish potential too badly for anything on that wish list. This is the same reason why we run Flamebreak and/or Cave-In, but definitely no Pyroclasm.

Scroll is a mana investment of 1+3 for 2 points of damage, which makes it useless for goldfishing. At the 3 mana we need for the activation, we could get '4 damage with a very relevant benefit' or '5 damage, slightly conditional'. By the time scroll overtakes those, we have spent 10 mana, over a minimum of 3 turns.

If you want to run a recurring damage source, Sulfuric Vortex or Pulse of the Forge are more appealing. The former solves lifegain issues (Jitte) and requires no further investment. The latter isn't totally useless for goldfishing and excellent to secure damage races when resources are tight (EoT Pulse. Pulse. Fireblast. 12 damage off 2 cards, on 3 mountains).

[Wallace]

But no lands to use the Ring's ability....^^

You tap the mountains before you sac them and you will have :r: or :r::r: in your pool to do whatever you need with.

[DragoFireheart]

Something to make note of is that In Two-Headed giant Flamebreaks and Sulfuric Vortex deal double damage. My burn deck got me 2nd place at a recent two-headed giant tourny.

Creatures:
4 Mogg Fanatic

Non-Creatures:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
3 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands:
19 Mountain

[technogeek5000]

Im looking for the correct mana base currently. I believe that 19 mana sources is the right number and tha i want to run 2-3 barb rins. So basically i have come to 17 mountains and 2 barb rings. Is this the correct number if you run cards like 3x flamebreaks.

[Lemuria]

Why aren't anyone running Price of Progress? That card is simple retarded

[DragoFireheart]

Why aren't anyone running Price of Progress? That card is simple retarded

Well for me, I tend to have a lot of mono-colored decks in my format.

I do sideboard them however.

[Lemuria]

This is the current list I'm running:

4 x mogg fanatic
3 x ball lightning
4 x lightning bolt
4 x chain lightning
4 x lava spike/rift bolt
4 x incinerate
4 x magma jet
4 x flame rift
4 x fireblast
3 x price of progress
3 x flamebreak

19 x mountain

I know this isn't a creature deck, but ball lightning is too amazing to not consider. Flame rift helps to get your opponents in the red zone very quickly and Price of Progress just wins you games.Very often you do six damage and sometimes you can hit for eight.

[DragoFireheart]

This is the current list I'm running:

4 x mogg fanatic
3 x ball lightning
4 x lightning bolt
4 x chain lightning
4 x lava spike/rift bolt
4 x incinerate
4 x magma jet
4 x flame rift
4 x fireblast
3 x price of progress
3 x flamebreak

19 x mountain

I know this isn't a creature deck, but ball lightning is too amazing to not consider. Flame rift helps to get your opponents in the red zone very quickly and Price of Progress just wins you games.Very often you do six damage and sometimes you can hit for eight.

Flame Rift is horrible in aggro match-ups, though it's decent against control / combo.

Ball is a no-no as it dies to removal and there is a crap load of removal in this format.

[Lemuria]

At first, I picked up this deck just to play for fun, but I'm surprised how this deck is doing for me. I haven't play against thresh, but I had very good results playing against good decks such as CounterSliver, Pox and even Stax (WITH CHALICE SET AT ONE!!!). It just smashes randomness and it sure can race faster then most aggros.

So yeah, now I'm playing this for serious.

[Wallace]

So I played in the Psmacku Mox Ruby tournament today with my new Burn List:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progres
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Street Wraith
2 Flamebreak
2 Sudden Shock
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Barbirian Ring
11 Mountain

First Round: 2-0 Win
Don't Remember what I played, I won 2-0, might have been 2-1 IDK. Win

Round 2: Survival, Dave Price 1-2 Lose
Game1 was over quickly I win. Game 2 I bure for 3 on first turn, he drops 2 tarmogoyf's and drop Pirostatic Pillar, I lost the race. Game 3 starts out real bad for me. He Goes Duress, Therapy, Therapy. I lost Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Incinerate to the discard. I drop a pillar and keep burning his face. I stall out hitting 6 land. I could have drew Price of Progress FTW but drew the 6th land of the game. I had already Fetched 2 and used 1 wraith. I hate Land!!!

Round 3: Enchantress, Akki 2-0

Game 1: Lots of burn to the face, is over kind of fast, he had mana problems.

Game 2: He mull's and once again has some mana issues. i keep a sub par hand. He sits on Forest w/Utopa Sprall, White for 3 turns, He drops Enchantress says go. Now I have a very intresting hand, Price of Progress x 2, Flamebreak, Pyroclasm, Pillar. I draw land and pass. He says " I draw a land this is over. " He draws a land and drops Solitary Confinement ad just looks at me? I don't scoop, he says go. I draw Rift Bolt and cast pyroclasm, Killing his Enchantress. He keeps Confinement around a turn of two before droping an Enchantress's Presence and he replaces the Confinement. Couple of turns pass he scoops to drawing land.

Round 4: Farie Stompy/ Blue Skies Danny Meeker 0-2
Game 1: He draws multiple Force of Wills and Daze's. Then use's his maindeck Misdirections, I lost.

Game 2: Chill :cry:

I would like to congradulat Danny on winning the Event.

Round 4: Enchantress, again. Zach Tartell 2-0

Game 1: I win in 3 turns, Go me! He fetch's. I go Turn 1, Bolt , Turn 2, Spike, Spike, Turn 3, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast. GG

Game 2: Lots of burn to his head, I think it lasted 4 or 5 turns this game.


So I wnet 3-2 on the day. I lost to some mana flood and to the first person I have run into playing chill. I had some mana issues, mainly drawing way to much. It was a fun day but I think I am going to throw Burn on the Back Burrner for a while. Thank you to everyone who attended and I hope to see you all at the Epic DLD.

[Soto]

I'm running this list to a local tourny tonight. Ill post results later.

4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Flamebreak
3 Price of Progress
1 Fork
2 Landslide

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

[DragoFireheart]

I'm running this list to a local tourny tonight. Ill post results later.

4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Flamebreak
3 Price of Progress
1 Fork
2 Landslide

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Depending on your meta I highly suggest using Sulfuric Vortex main-decked: it utterly kills control decks and stops annoying life-gaining crap like Jitte.

[Soto]

in da board
im trying to run as little 3cc cards as possible

[Soto]

..i did horribly bad...

[Lemuria]

What SB did you use?

[DragoFireheart]

..i did horribly bad...

Details. What match-ups killed you?

[Soto]

I played against Mono Black LD and discard and i got killed by NETHER VOID??? Wasn't expecting that. Slowed me down enough for nantuko beats. Then i got a bye and just quit ^^. I played a little with the deck and it felt fine i just had some bad luck that one match with the void. I didnt do that bad...

[Lemuria]

I don't understand, because I always did very good against discard. Also, since my meta runs some discard, I always pack Guerrila Tatics in my SB.

[ClearSkies]

I played against Mono Black LD and discard and i got killed by NETHER VOID??? Wasn't expecting that. Slowed me down enough for nantuko beats. Then i got a bye and just quit ^^. I played a little with the deck and it felt fine i just had some bad luck that one match with the void. I didnt do that bad...

Nether Void is a bit unexpected, but yea, Chill-like effects can slow down a burn deck quite a bit. The few times I took Burn to the tournment, I lost to Chill-like effects completely everytime.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

This is a list I have been playing with. Nothing that notable, except that I play Shock over Fanatic. I play fork, so god forbid this should happen, I could fork the shock. Also, it has a much higher probability to deal 2 dmg than the Fanatic. If it has to, it can answer whatever the Fanatic could.

I run the fork as my two of, because it is almost always a 2 for 4 or at least an Incinerate. I respect the ankh too, but I feel much more comfortable with the fork in this slot.

Deck

Creatures

4 x Mogg Fanatic

Burn

4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Incinerate
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Price of Progress
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Fireblast
3 x Flamebreak
2 x Fork

Mana

17 x Mountains
2 x Barbarian Rings

Sideboard
1 x Flamebreak
2 x Pyroblast
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Sulfuric Vortex
3 x Shattering Spree

[Wallace]

I like your build but think you might want to run Mogg Fanatic. His biggest role is to block that big creature beating your face. Fanatic is more of a delay tactic than it is a burn spell or an attacking creature. I have tested this deck a lot and have found the fanatics to be a good choice. They have saved my ass many times.

[VsTheWorld]

Also note that Mogg Fanatic is your only way of shutting off an active Bridge from Below against Ichorid.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I like your build but think you might want to run Mogg Fanatic. His biggest role is to block that big creature beating your face. Fanatic is more of a delay tactic than it is a burn spell or an attacking creature. I have tested this deck a lot and have found the fanatics to be a good choice. They have saved my ass many times.

It is nice to stop a rampaging Gofy for one turn and you will get one damage out of the deal. Also, the little detail of stopping opponent's bridges totally slipped my mind. There goes my attempt to be innovative lol. I didn't see really anything in Lorywn that would go in this deck either. Needle Drop is close, but just not good enough. But whatever! Burn will always be a blast to play even if WotC are mean and cruel and don't throw cards are way.

[Tacosnape]

Burn's also a lot more viable now that people are playing Thoughtseize.

But not running Mogg Fanatic? Come on. He's the best anti-combo card red -has- right now, in addition to a time-staller, fast beater, and an all-but-guaranteed 1 to the face (I mean, okay, sure, they -might- Stifle it.)

[DragoFireheart]

Burn's also a lot more viable now that people are playing Thoughtseize.

But not running Mogg Fanatic? Come on. He's the best anti-combo card red -has- right now, in addition to a time-staller, fast beater, and an all-but-guaranteed 1 to the face (I mean, okay, sure, they -might- Stifle it.)

I would stifle your mogg... because chances are there wouldn't be anything else to stifle in a burn deck. :frown:

In any case Mogg is too cool to take out of this deck. I think it's going to be awhile before we get any cards that can optimize this deck without changing the entire theme of it.

[Wallace]

In any case Mogg is too cool to take out of this deck. I think it's going to be awhile before we get any cards that can optimize this deck without changing the entire theme of it.

The only thing that would replace Mogg Fanatic is another :r: spell that deals 3 damage to target player.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Burn's also a lot more viable now that people are playing Thoughtseize.

But not running Mogg Fanatic? Come on. He's the best anti-combo card red -has- right now, in addition to a time-staller, fast beater, and an all-but-guaranteed 1 to the face (I mean, okay, sure, they -might- Stifle it.)

Ha ha ha, yes it was a bout of silliness on my part. This is why I love the Source. Its like that slap in the face you always need, but never get. Man, I would be one lost soul without it...

[Wallace]

So I have thrown Burn on the preverbial back burner, I think I have someone else to pilot it for a tourny of two though. I want to try and run the Bauble/Bauble/Street Wraith verison, ashould I run 8 Baubles (Urza's & Mishura's) or should I run 4 x Bauble, 4 x Street Wraith?

[chokin]

I don't like straight up burn. I think the deck needs some lasting power. I had a friend play burn with Slith Firewalkers, Grim Lavamancers, Mogg Fanatic, and I think Jackal Pups. I had another friend run Mishra's Factory and Flame Rift(with Glacial Chasm...wtf?)

Burn is fun, fast and can put so much pressure down against combo that they can't successfully go off. But a single COP: Red makes you cry(that's why my friend had Mishra's.

[Wallace]

I don't like straight up burn. I think the deck needs some lasting power. I had a friend play burn with Slith Firewalkers, Grim Lavamancers, Mogg Fanatic, and I think Jackal Pups. I had another friend run Mishra's Factory and Flame Rift(with Glacial Chasm...wtf?)

Burn is fun, fast and can put so much pressure down against combo that they can't successfully go off. But a single COP: Red makes you cry(that's why my friend had Mishra's.

Ok the deck you described is called Sligh, not burn and second, no one plays COP red any more. Of cource I said the same thing about chill and ran into that at the last event. COP red is a bitch if it hits. This deck is fast enough and packs enough burn to race a COP red.

I have played burn in the last 3 big legacy events I have played in, went 3-2, 4-2, and 3-2. Burn is a very vialable deck, it is easy to play, cheap to build and very fast. I can consistently win on turn 3 or 4 pre-board and depending on the match up, turn 4-5 or 5-6 post-board.

With the exception of my one loss to goblins, a match up I normally auto win, all of my losses were close and most came to good draws from the board. I have only lost one game 1 in the 6 losses I have had with this deck. I would say that 10 - 6 is not to bad for a deck that has " no lasting power ", especially in the very tough Syracuse meta game.

[bigbear102]

Ok, for the last time (yeah right...) CoP: Red is not hard for Burn to beat. You have to know what you are doing and play well. It doesn't come online until turn 3, when they are around 10 life. Most decks playing CoP's have non-basics, meaning a long game makes a resolved PoP gold. You just have to play it right.

Kronicler can attest to this, CoP:Red never saved him against me. Pulse of the Fields has had my number a few times, but CoP has never stopped me from winning a game. Chill on the other hand... that's why I had to stop playing it at locals.

[DragoFireheart]

Ok, for the last time (yeah right...) CoP: Red is not hard for Burn to beat. You have to know what you are doing and play well. It doesn't come online until turn 3, when they are around 10 life. Most decks playing CoP's have non-basics, meaning a long game makes a resolved PoP gold. You just have to play it right.

Kronicler can attest to this, CoP:Red never saved him against me. Pulse of the Fields has had my number a few times, but CoP has never stopped me from winning a game. Chill on the other hand... that's why I had to stop playing it at locals.

Which is yet another reason to main-deck a Sulfuric Vortex or two. :cool:

I'm telling you guys, fit those into your burn decks and you will be amazed at how they can turn around games. It puts a clock on any sort of Control deck, it prevents life gain and puts a hell of a lot of pressure on your opponent. If you suspect that your opponent will be siding in enchantment destruction side out the Vortexs for something else, giving them more dead cards :laugh:

Also @ Comments about adding creatures: burn uses so many burn spells because.

1: It's a burn deck.

2: Burn spells will kill faster than creatures.

3: By using more creatures you will be giving your opponent the chance to use his dead cards. One big favor in burn is the virtual card advantage.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Which is yet another reason to main-deck a Sulfuric Vortex or two. :cool:

I'm telling you guys, fit those into your burn decks and you will be amazed at how they can turn around games. It puts a clock on any sort of Control deck, it prevents life gain and puts a hell of a lot of pressure on your opponent. If you suspect that your opponent will be siding in enchantment destruction side out the Vortexs for something else, giving them more dead cards :laugh:

Also @ Comments about adding creatures: burn uses so many burn spells because.

1: It's a burn deck.

2: Burn spells will kill faster than creatures.

3: By using more creatures you will be giving your opponent the chance to use his dead cards. One big favor in burn is the virtual card advantage.


I maindeck a Vortex and have a PoP in my board for my local meta, due to my janky meta and PoP being dead too many times. For a major tourney of course you would want 4 x PoP mainboarded so what would suggest to take out to? I was thinking maybe one Flamebreak to the SB and one Vortex out, but I am not sure. Anyway, in my janky meta at least... that one Vortex somehow shows up all the time and wins me the game.

[DragoFireheart]

I maindeck a Vortex and have a PoP in my board for my local meta, due to my janky meta and PoP being dead too many times. For a major tourney of course you would want 4 x PoP mainboarded so what would suggest to take out to? I was thinking maybe one Flamebreak to the SB and one Vortex out, but I am not sure. Anyway, in my janky meta at least... that one Vortex somehow shows up all the time and wins me the game.

For a card to take out, I would take out the Chains of Plasma. You want to keep the Flamebreaks/Vortexs maindecked until game two where you then can decide if you need more Flamebreaks/Vortexs or need something else.

[DragoFireheart]

Has a optimized deck-list for Burn ever been used to try and place a Top-8 at any sort of tourney?

[ClearSkies]

Has a optimized deck-list for Burn ever been used to try and place a Top-8 at any sort of tourney?

Of course it has Top-8 in tournaments before. Mostly, it is due to good metagaming.

Not sure if we allowed to post other results here from other websites
http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Burn
List of Top 8s for Burn in Germany? Maybe?

Have anyone tried Dragon Claw as a sideboard card?

[DragoFireheart]

Of course it has Top-8 in tournaments before. Mostly, it is due to good metagaming.

Not sure if we allowed to post other results here from other websites
http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Burn
List of Top 8s for Burn in Germany? Maybe?

Have anyone tried Dragon Claw as a sideboard card?

Interesting about that dragon claw. Used in mirror matches VS other burn decks maybe?

[burkey_boy]

dragon claw.. didnt think of that. always went with sun droplet for gain life.

burn is graet. i have my list pretty much filled out. last thing is the mogg fanatic slot. im really not impressed all the time with the mogg... bit crap really most of hte time.

we need another 3 damage 1cc burn spell.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Here is one from a fairly large Italian tourney.


Schiano Diego

Burn!

// Lands
17 [UNH] Mountain
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Spells
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [10E] Incinerate
3 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
3 [NE] Flame Rift
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [MM] Crash
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex

[DragoFireheart]

Here is one from a fairly large Italian tourney.


Schiano Diego

Burn!

// Lands
17 [UNH] Mountain
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Spells
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [10E] Incinerate
3 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
3 [NE] Flame Rift
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [MM] Crash
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex

Hmm, seems like too many Vortexs/Flamebreaks main-decked. Perhaps he has a creature-heavy meta in which Flamebreak just owns face. Why he has 3-Vortexs main decked I'm not sure of. Maybe he faces a lot of life-gain decks in his meta?

If he is facing lots of life-gain in his meta I would just use another deck. He may be using Vortexs vs Control decks. Vortex owns the crap out of control.

I also don't care much for Flame Rift, though some people like it. I'd take out the 3 of them and put some Moggs in. Moggs the only creature burn can use without it being truly dead. It can chump block Gofys, kill annoying weenies like Dark Confidant and Goblin Lackey and hose Ichorid.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I have been wondering about Flame Rift myself. Maybe this deck has to play a bit more suicidal to pull out some quick wins. If it reaches mid game, you lost anyway. Flame Rift can hurt really bad, but the deck is not up to snuff as it stands. I think going for pure speed could be of help.

[DragoFireheart]

I have been wondering about Flame Rift myself. Maybe this deck has to play a bit more suicidal to pull out some quick wins. If it reaches mid game, you lost anyway. Flame Rift can hurt really bad, but the deck is not up to snuff as it stands. I think going for pure speed could be of help.

Well I am also thinking about the mirror matches that burn might, on the off chance, run into. Flame Rift does nothing in that regard but help your opponent more than yourself.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well I am also thinking about the mirror matches that burn might, on the off chance, run into. Flame Rift does nothing in that regard but help your opponent more than yourself.

This is true, but I think we should disregard the mirror. Flame rift isn't too hot against aggro-control at times either, but it can bring a faster win and that is something we need. I am thinking of using Flame Rifts, Forks, and of course PoP for the possibility of a faster kill. The build would lose lots of consistency for speed. Meh, just an experiment.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm still not convinced about the flame rifts. Maybe some solid testing will prove otherwise. For now though I use Chain of Plasma in place of the Flame Rifts.

It's always funny when people blindly bounce it back at you. :laugh:

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I'm still not convinced about the flame rifts. Maybe some solid testing will prove otherwise. For now though I use Chain of Plasma in place of the Flame Rifts.

It's always funny when people blindly bounce it back at you. :laugh:

Ha ha ha, wow yeah that is funny.

[Taurelin]

For now though I use Chain of Plasma in place of the Flame Rifts.

It's always funny when people blindly bounce it back at you. :laugh:

Yes, but it's also funny if your opponent suddenly has the opportunity to turn his StoPs, WoGs, Disenchants, EEs, Pyroclasms, Pernicious Deeds and all his other dead cards in the Matchup in 3 points of damage. Quite often your opponent has more (dead) cards in his hand than you, so Chain of Plasma puts you at a serious disadvantage.

I wouldn't recommend it.

[Jak]

I hear free lightning bolts are good.

[redmage]

I hear free lightning bolts are good.

They are; however, your opponent would have to be dumb enough to "chain it" twice in a row before you'd get the virtual effect of a free "lightning bolt". Remember, Chain has an initial investment of 2 mana.

That said, it can convert a random card, and the initial Chain of Plasma into virtual "Lightning Bolts" if the opponent is dumb enough to "Chain it" once.

[slyfer]

Is 3x red genju (R, enchant mountain) tech in sideboard??
Consider that thay side out "EVERY" creature removal...

[bigbear102]

Chain of Plasma is a fine card in burn, so what if they pitch their dead cards? If they have more than 2 dead cards in hand it's a positive matchup anyway. I'll turn an extra land/incinerate/riftbolt into 3 free damage any day.

The genju isn't bad sideboard, I just don't think it's needed.

And Flame Rift doesn't only help your opponent in the mirror. It just speeds the game up. You have to play it on turn 2, or have at least 2 cards in your hand that can kill your opponent if/when it resolves. At worst you play it for the draw.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Chain of Plasma is fine, except that it gives your opponent a chance to win the damage race when it's convenient. If you expect it to get bounced back at you at the wrong times, it's probably a good choice. As you advance in the standings, however, it seems to me that it would become a greater liability. When your opponent successfully applies pressure (such as with a big Tarmogoyf, a few goblins, etc.), Chain of Plasma is unlikely to be your friend.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Doesn't Chain of Plasma kind of throw away half the reason you're playing Burn, and not Sligh? One of the deck's strengths is the virtual card advantage is generates by making all their board control elements dead. If a deck that's capable of applying pressure can turn those into damage, it might not end well for you.

As Matt says, this may be irrelevant in match-ups you're all ready going to win; but that should mean the opposite conclusion. If its dangerous in the match-ups that are in the air(those that can race you), and it's ok in match-ups where you should win anyway(control), what good does it really do you?

Although Guerrilla Tactics + Chain is temptingly funny.

[Wallace]

Flame Rift is a bad chioce, I have droped it all together. I now use the 8 bauble version of Burn. Useing the bauble's lets you run better burn spells. You don't need to run the Flame Rift or Chain of Plasma. Run the 16 one drop for 3 damage spells, Incinerate and Fireblast and make sure you are running at least two main deck Vortex. After hat you just have to decide on what your meta calls for, I run Mogg Fanatic and Flamebreak with four main deck Price of Progress.

Just so ya know Tactics Reads: When a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Guerrilla Tactics, Guerrilla Tactics deals 4 damage to target creature or player.

[Nihil Credo]

Just so ya know Tactics Reads: When a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Guerrilla Tactics, Guerrilla Tactics deals 4 damage to target creature or player.


Chain of Plasma deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Then that player or that creature’s controller may discard a card. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Emphasis mine. He copies the spell, so he is the controller of that copy, just like if he had Twincasted one of your burn spells. Since it is that copy which causes you to discard a card, the Chain/Tactics combo works.

[Iranon]

Meh... it's not as if an opponent will often want to fling it back. It might cause you to lose damage races once in a while, but the drawback isn't in the same league of Flame Rift or Fork. The problem is that 3-for-2 isn't good in the first place.

An anology: Some horrible Shahrazad milling decks can appear vicious unless you realise that you don't have to play along - concede subgames, suck up the life loss and they fall apart.
In both cases the opponent can completely avoid the uniqueness of the card. The difference is that if they do so, Shahrazad provides a strong effect (1w for half the opponent's life) that doesn't work well with the rest of the deck while a vanilla Chain of Plasma is weak all-around.

Giving an opponent a choice only works if it's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. That is arguably the case with Browbeat - 5 damage or 3 cards are both very good returns for 3 mana (personally, I still don't like the card). An instant Volcanic Hammer is nothing to write home about.

In theory, a situation might come up where Chain of Plasma does something that doesn't require the consent of the opponent. We can't pave the way for this though, because possible synergistic cards (such as Fiery Temper) are too weak to run in our own deck.
There might be bizarre applications such as massive self-harm in the face of a Pulse of the Fields, but those occasions will be too rare to be significant.

[Wallace]

My current Burn List:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Incinerate
2 Magma Jet
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble

3 Barbirian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain

I have droped the Mogg Fanatics for the Baubles. You really want to draw a spell off of the cantrip, Fanatic has been under performing. They are good when you drop them turn one, after that they are just ok. The bauble's let you draw the good burn spells that are available. I really don't like the :1::r: spells, this version allows you to run less of them. Magma Jet's scry ability is nice, but I would rather do more than 2 damage for 2 mana. Give this list a try, you won't be dissapointed. I don't like to post sideboards due to the fact that they will be diffrent depending on your meta game.

[bigredmeanie]

What's up with the Baubles? Why not just run spells in those slots?

Also, I wouldn't run any fetchlands. They don't thin your deck enough to matter, and they will randomly screw you when your opponent has a Stifle.

[KillemallCFH]

I'm pretty sure he's running fetches for Mishra's Bauble. (Look at top card w/ bauble; if you like it, don't fetch; if you don't, shuffle it away.)

[Jak]

Street Wraith is so much better than Baubles.

Also 3 for 2 being bad? Is that why we run Incinerate?

[Wallace]

I said that I diden't like the :1::r: spells, didn't say they were bad. The baubles are really good, better than wraith in the testing I have done. I have tried 4 x Bauble 4 x Wraith and it works ok. The wraith seemed to hurt more than it helped, aggro decks were destroying me.The fetch lands do thin you out more than you would think. Running 8 :0: drop cantrips and for fetch's really nets you more usefull spells. Plus like KillemallCFH said, if you Bauble and see a land, you can shuffle with the fetch.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I said that I diden't like the :1::r: spells, didn't say they were bad. The baubles are really good, better than wraith in the testing I have done. I have tried 4 x Bauble 4 x Wraith and it works ok. The wraith seemed to hurt more than it helped, aggro decks were destroying me.The fetch lands do thin you out more than you would think. Running 8 :0: drop cantrips and for fetch's really nets you more usefull spells. Plus like KillemallCFH said, if you Bauble and see a land, you can shuffle with the fetch.

Yes, baubles and fetch-lands seem like a solid gameplan. How much more competitive, is your build over the more traditional build? Also, do yo feel there is anyway to get burn in some form to become at least tier 1.5?

[Wallace]

Yes, baubles and fetch-lands seem like a solid gameplan. How much more competitive, is your build over the more traditional build? Also, do yo feel there is anyway to get burn in some form to become at least tier 1.5?

I played a diff. version of burn in 3 out of the last 4 legacy events I played in. I Lost a total of 6 games between the 3 events. 4 of the games were lost by drawing to much land, the other two I just lost. 3 of the games could have been won on my last draw, I drew a land. A 11-6 match record at 3 major events with any deck, is not to bad. I am hoping the baubles fix the problem I have been having with drawing to much land.

[Iranon]

Actually, I don't run Incinerate. It's less objectionable than most straight burn spells that aren't bolts, but I prefer a synergistic package (several options, depending on the metagame to abuse) to bolt-wannabes.

[DragoFireheart]

Haven't we already discussed that running baubles is some what slow plan for burn decks? Is there some new testing that shows baubles working well?

Also I would never run Street Wraiths as it is a good way to kill yourself.