[Deck] Burn

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I think Fork is way underrated. It has the potential to be a 2 for 4, and at worst its usually a 2 for 3. God knows how many times I used to just to make my Fireblast go through by forking their FoW. There have been almost no games where it hurt me being a topdeck. Very consistently its a solid addition to my deck. I take it over Chain of plasma or rift any day. The only build I wouldn't run it in is Bauble Burn.

Meh, I have been having these strange ideas like putting Spark Elementals in my deck. I know they suck, and make your opponent's once dead removal useful but the faint possibility of it being a 3 for 1 is seducing me. Someone smack sense into me!

[outsideangel]

Haven't we already discussed that running baubles is some what slow plan for burn decks? Is there some new testing that shows baubles working well?

Also I would never run Street Wraiths as it is a good way to kill yourself.

If you're playing Burn, you worry about the other guy's life total a whole lot more than you worry about your own. Reasons not to run Street Wraith include increased difficulty in mulliganing. Reasons not to run Street Wraith do not include taking two damage to make your deck more efficient.

Similiarly, Chain of Plasma isn't really poor in Burn because your opponent could occasionally send it back to you (though this is a mark against it) but because the only times it's going to be anything other than a 3-for-2 are when your opponent wants it to be, and 3-for-2's are subpar in Burn.

Re: Spark Elemental- He's actually not been bad to me. Your opponent will rarely have a blocker, and will rarely hold mana open for creature removal (they want to be swinging every turn to race you, and using all their mana to do the same) so he's usually a 3-for-1.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Re: Spark Elemental- He's actually not been bad to me. Your opponent will rarely have a blocker, and will rarely hold mana open for creature removal (they want to be swinging every turn to race you, and using all their mana to do the same) so he's usually a 3-for-1.

That was what I was thinking. What slot would you suggest he would replace? If he is usually a 3-for-1, why is he not a staple? I think if he is, then he should find a place for sure. If it is even 70% of the time in which he is a 3 for 1, than I think that is plenty. We can't afford to waste as much on effort with consistancy with this new meta.

[bigbear102]

Doesn't Chain of Plasma kind of throw away half the reason you're playing Burn, and not Sligh? One of the deck's strengths is the virtual card advantage is generates by making all their board control elements dead. If a deck that's capable of applying pressure can turn those into damage, it might not end well for you.

As Matt says, this may be irrelevant in match-ups you're all ready going to win; but that should mean the opposite conclusion. If its dangerous in the match-ups that are in the air(those that can race you), and it's ok in match-ups where you should win anyway(control), what good does it really do you?

Although Guerrilla Tactics + Chain is temptingly funny.


Your logic works most of the time in Magic, but burn is its own entity. Chain of Plasma is good against EVERYTHING, and better against the decks that will have a better game against you. I may be wrong now that Tarmogoyf is in the format, but other than goblins, burn races every aggro deck out there. It doesn't really hurt you in any match.


I'm still not convinced about the flame rifts. Maybe some solid testing will prove otherwise. For now though I use Chain of Plasma in place of the Flame Rifts.


You also must remember that my comments were in response to this post, meaning that you are trading a sorcery speed card that is damage parity with an instant speed card that is possibly parity, and can give you the chance to win on damage with it. Please understand where arguments come from BEFORE you bash them.

I personally don't play Chain of Plasma because I like Flame Rift better, and don't play burn because it isn't consistent enough.

[largebrandon]

Why not maindeck Pyrostatic Pillar? It works like a dream against everything. It also helps against combo.

[Soto]

They play one beater and can race you, since most of your spells are < 3CC

[Wallace]

Why not maindeck Pyrostatic Pillar? It works like a dream against everything. It also helps against combo.


I found out the hard way that Main deck Pillar hurts more than it helps. I have lost 3 games to my own Pillar.

[DragoFireheart]

I personally don't play Chain of Plasma because I like Flame Rift better, and don't play burn because it isn't consistent enough.

This is probably the #1 reason why burn isn't doing so well as of recent. It simply can be hated out too easily.

Has anyone thought about using Keldon Marauders? 2 for a 3/3 beater that always deals 2 damage with the possiblity to do one of the following:

1. Chump block a Goyf.

2. Deal a total of 5 damage.

3. Have another creature that will die on it's own to hinder Ichorid.

[Iranon]

Re Marauder and Spark Elemental:

I've mentioned this a few pages ago in a long-ish post...

You can turn pseudo-Sligh and make good use of the one-hit wonders.

Spark Elemental, Ball Lightning, Keldon Marauders, supported by Cave-In (all your creatures can swing through it).

[Wallace]

Re Marauder and Spark Elemental:

I've mentioned this a few pages ago in a long-ish post...

You can turn pseudo-Sligh and make good use of the one-hit wonders.

Spark Elemental, Ball Lightning, Keldon Marauders, supported by Cave-In (all your creatures can swing through it).

The problem with Marauders and Spark Elemental is that they can, 1) Be Blocked 2) Be Burned/Sword's. Burn should be going right to the Dome, creatures hinder this objective. The only creaturesthat belong in a Burn deck are Mogg Fanatic and maybe Street Wraith.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The problem with Marauders and Spark Elemental is that they can, 1) Be Blocked 2) Be Burned/Sword's. Burn should be going right to the Dome, creatures hinder this objective. The only creaturesthat belong in a Burn deck are Mogg Fanatic and maybe Street Wraith.

In the current meta, would there be a way to crack a solid guess as to the percentage of times a skilled player will get 3 for 1 out of ole Sparkie? If it is within reasonable percentages, he should find a place in the deck. He usually won't be blocked, sworded/burned, and will get through imo.

[DragoFireheart]

The problem with Marauders and Spark Elemental is that they can, 1) Be Blocked 2) Be Burned/Sword's. Burn should be going right to the Dome, creatures hinder this objective. The only creaturesthat belong in a Burn deck are Mogg Fanatic and maybe Street Wraith.

I make a defense for the Maraduers as they will always deal 2 damage and might be able to deal a total of 5. For 2-mana that isn't a shabby deal.

[Wallace]

In the current meta, would there be a way to crack a solid guess as to the percentage of times a skilled player will get 3 for 1 out of ole Sparkie? If it is within reasonable percentages, he should find a place in the deck. He usually won't be blocked, sworded/burned, and will get through imo.

Really, in a format packed with STP's, Smother, Lightning Bolt and Tarmogoyf you think you can get a Sparky through, good Luck.

[Tacosnape]

In the current meta, would there be a way to crack a solid guess as to the percentage of times a skilled player will get 3 for 1 out of ole Sparkie?

Very High. I'd say above 95%. I'd say even an unskilled one can do it over 90%, excluding counterspells or other random things that would negate any burn spell, not just sparky.


Really, in a format packed with STP's, Smother, Lightning Bolt and Tarmogoyf you think you can get a Sparky through, good Luck.

Tell you what. I'll play burn for a week and lay you $20 for every time I can't get one through in a game to $5 for every time I can, and then you can tell me all about the second part-time job you had to get to cover your losses.

First off, if you're on the play, none of these stop a turn one Spark Elemental. And if you run Sparky, you always play him right off the bat.

Secondly, any deck that runs Lightning Bolt is aggressive. Aggressive decks don't leave mana untapped against Burn. Doing so is a losing strategy.

Third, Spark Elemental is way quicker than Smother, and the only deck I know of running Smother is Black-based aggro-control, which also does not leave mana untapped against Burn. See above.

Fourth, Tarmogoyfs are not going to sit there and be untapped. They're going to swing.

Fifth, Swords is the only one of the cards you listed likely to hit a Spark Elemental. If it does, so the hell what? Gaining 3 life might gain you another turn to topdeck a burn spell, and if they left the mana open, that's a turn they didn't drop a threat that increases how quickly you're going to die.

Sixth, it's not a big deal of a 1-toughness or 2-toughness guy blocks it. That's one less guy that's swinging at you and possibly one more turn to topdeck a burn spell, and you still get trample damage through.

The only real threat in existence to Spark Elemental is Mogg Fanatic, or topdecking him on turn five or so when you're in a close damage race and your opponent has a creature he/she just summoned.

...Oh, and did I mention Spark Elemental's ungodly good against Ichorid?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Really, in a format packed with STP's, Smother, Lightning Bolt and Tarmogoyf you think you can get a Sparky through, good Luck.

They can feel free to bolt my Sparky (feels like an even trade), and they need to leave mana open to answer my Sparky which probably won't happen due to it being a life race and all. Being blocked is another possibility, however more than likely they will be wanting to smash my face in than holding back for a blocker.

A note on Fork and why I am no longer using it... Today in a game, I discovered a gap in my rule knowledge. The situation was that I had 4 lands (3 mountains/1 Ring) and a fireblast, and fork in hand. So I go for the kill by tapping my two mountains and then saccing them to the fireblast followed by a fork. Since I never ran into this situation before and am new to the deck, I was unaware of the little detail that my opponent merely has to counter my fireblast to stop both spells... On the stack I learned, if they countered my fireblast it would go off the stack leaving my fork doing nothing... Of course, I can't give priority to my opponent before I cast fork or fireblast would just resolve. So, with that said Fork sucks...

[redmage]

Tell you what. I'll play burn for a week and lay you $20 for every time I can't get one through in a game to $5 for every time I can, and then you can tell me all about the second part-time job you had to get to cover your losses.

I don't really see that as being a legitimate litmus test. It doesn't take into account the games you'll lose, or stop you from mulling into a turn 1 Sparky every game.



First off, if you're on the play, none of these stop a turn one Spark Elemental. And if you run Sparky, you always play him right off the bat.

This is actually a strong mark against Sparky. Since it's naturally the 2nd choice, as a creature, in the deck (Fanatic being the 1st), by adding him you now have 12 cards competing for that single turn 1 play: 4x Fanatic, 4x Rift Bolt, and 4x Sparky; all of which get notably "worse" the longer you hold on to them. Sparky would actually be my 3rd choice, of the three, and I certainly wouldn't "always play him right off the bat".



Secondly, any deck that runs Lightning Bolt is aggressive. Aggressive decks don't leave mana untapped against Burn. Doing so is a losing strategy.

Very true, and, since they're aggressive, they're likely playing creatures (most of which will have a turn of summoning sickness) that can block for a turn. I'd rather aim straight for the dome, than use my resources, optionally (by opponent's choice), killing their creatures.



Third, Spark Elemental is way quicker than Smother...
Again, with 12 cards competing for the turn 1 play (and Sparky being the 3rd choice), this doesn't necessarily hold true; however...



...the only deck I know of running Smother is Black-based aggro-control
This is true, but with Thoughtseize entering the format, black splashes could see a rise, and Smother is a solid answer to the ever present Goyf.


Fourth, Tarmogoyfs are not going to sit there and be untapped. They're going to swing.
Last I knew, Goyf didn't have haste; so he'll still be able to block freely for a turn. Opponents won't need to hold back a blocker since the vast majority of creatures played, turns 1-4, will have summoning sickness for a turn.



Fifth, Swords is the only one of the cards you listed likely to hit a Spark Elemental. If it does, so the hell what? Gaining 3 life might gain you another turn to topdeck a burn spell, and if they left the mana open, that's a turn they didn't drop a threat that increases how quickly you're going to die.

And here I thought that one of the main reasons Swords was so good was that it was cheap enough to allow someone to drop a "threat" and still have mana left over for an "answer"; however, you're probably right in that the 3 life might "buy you a turn".



Sixth, it's not a big deal of a 1-toughness or 2-toughness guy blocks it. That's one less guy that's swinging at you and possibly one more turn to topdeck a burn spell, and you still get trample damage through.

Maybe it's just personal preference/playstyle, but I'd rather just aim for the dome, and this just doesn't seem like a very strong supporting point for the Elemental. If you're only going to do 1-2 dmg to the opponent; Shock, Needle Drop, Lava Dart, etc. would be at roughly the same level of playability in Sparky's place.



The only real threat in existence to Spark Elemental is Mogg Fanatic, or topdecking him on turn five or so when you're in a close damage race and your opponent has a creature he/she just summoned.

So this is assuming that any creatures summoned turns 1-4 had haste?



...Oh, and did I mention Spark Elemental's ungodly good against Ichorid?

I suppose you could always bring him in, from the SB, vs. Ichorid...

[Iranon]

One of the greatest advantages of Burn is that your spells have an alternate use picking off troublesome creatures/strategically slowing them down when needed. If I thought this aspect was irrelevant and just wanted to goldfish, I'd play some combo deck that is twice as fast and more resilent at the same time.

There are 2 ways of making this practicable, instead of running out of steam: Running more very efficient cards (Spark Elemental, Flame Rift, Keldon Marauders, Ball Lightning) or reusable damage sources (Pulse of the Forge and Sulfuric Vortex are the only ones I'd play).
Marauders are well worth burning away a blocker - end situation is same life total for the opponent assuming we used a bolt, possibly more for us (if an opponent couldn't swing with something small), and one creature less for them.

Actually, Swords is even less of a reason against creatures than burn in any deck that runs decent-sized critters. Plowing their own Tarmogoyf will statistically buy our opponent more than 2 turns, in which all sorts of ugly things can happen (being beaten down by a other critters, a Counterbalance lock, sideboarded hate)

[Wallace]

Thank you Redmage for saving me from typing a long reply to Tacosnape. Totaly agree with everything you said. I think Spark Elemental was in Burn before you had Rift Bolt, now you have a 50/50 chance to hit with it and rift bolt is just better.



Sixth, it's not a big deal of a 1-toughness or 2-toughness guy blocks it. That's one less guy that's swinging at you and possibly one more turn to topdeck a burn spell, and you still get trample damage through.

Sparky as a creature removal spell? This is burn people, GO TO THE DOME!!!


Secondly, any deck that runs Lightning Bolt is aggressive. Aggressive decks don't leave mana untapped against Burn. Doing so is a losing strategy.
Last time I Checked people save there instant speed burn spells till end of opponents turn.

[Lemuria]

If I would run any creature besides mogg, I'd probably go with Ball Lightning. Actually, I went on a tournament here and I went 3-2. I lost to Thresh game 2 and 3 thanks to countertop, and lost to Scepter/Chant. But even then, I won all my first games and Ball Lightning was brute. Anyway, even Ball Lightning been great for me, I think this deck should run only mogg as a creature. You guys are all forgeting that many decks still run jittes, and although Burn can win through a jitte, Ball Lightning, Spark Elemental or any creature you might think, cannot.

[Iranon]

Spark Elemental eats one Jitte counter. Lightning bolt deals 3 damage, 2 of which can be regained by a Jitte counter... the difference is neglegible given that your top priority should be to prevent an active Jitte anyway.

The difference is more pronounced in the case of Ball Lightning... but again, one of our best (least objectionable. We might be screwed either way) options is to blast the bearer before Jitte gains counters. In which case we face the problem of running out of gas before we can finish the job... which in turn means a single card with the potential to deal 6 damage is golden.

Having a Ball Lightning trample over a Tarmogoyf is usually a good thing because it'll often deal damage and buy us at least a turn.

For the record: My preferred build of Burn does not contain creatures beyond Mogg Fanatic; it's optimised to switch gears to 'mono-red control' effortlessly without running cards that are dead with a standard Burn approach. I simply don't think agree with the following:

This is burn people, GO TO THE DOME!!!
I can only repeat that if I wanted to goldfish, I would play a deck that's actually good at it. Burn is attractive because it can try to ignore the opponent when convenient OR pick off their creatures if necessary. I would go as far as to say that the only good Burn decks are the ones built around this principle.

[Wallace]

I can only repeat that if I wanted to goldfish, I would play a deck that's actually good at it. Burn is attractive because it can try to ignore the opponent when convenient OR pick off their creatures if necessary. I would go as far as to say that the only good Burn decks are the ones built around this principle.

Going to the Dome is what burn does best, if I am missing somthing here, please tell me? Bolt your Face, Bolt your face, bolt your face,...Looks like going to the dome to me? Mogg Fanatic is the only creature that belongs in Burn.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Going to the Dome is what burn does best, if I am missing somthing here, please tell me? Bolt your Face, Bolt your face, bolt your face,...Looks like going to the dome to me? Mogg Fanatic is the only creature that belongs in Burn.

I would love to be able to always go for the dome, but there is a slight lack of adequate spells. Yeah if WotC printed another 1 for 3 spell there would be no argument. However, they didn't yet... Mogg Fanatic is solid and is not for mere burn purposes like you said earlier, but I am not too terribly impressed by his 1 dmg to the dome. I think Sparkie is something to look into. Maybe I am a bad player, but whenever I was playing UG Madness (yeah inferior Thresh laugh it up lol) I would usually not block the Spark elementals with anything. Unless Gofy is REALLY huge, the Thresh player should be wary of blocking with the Gofy only to see a bolt go at it. I am a little conservative with my counters and would probably hold back my FoW's for PoP and fireblast, so I would not be too enthused at the possibility of having to bail out my gofy. What I am saying is, Sparkie and Bolt for one gofy seems like a good trade. With that in mind, I think Sparkie can be a fairly consistent lava spike. Just what our deck needs.

[Wallace]

So in a deck that depends on Burn alone to, you are going to use up two spells to kill a Goyf. So now if you went turn one land, :r: burn spell, turn 2, land Burn Spell, Burn Spell, turn 3 Cast Sparky and Bolt the Goyf.

End of Turn 1:
5 Cards in Hand
Opp. @ 17

End Turn 2:
3 Cards in Hand
Opp. @ 11

End Turn 3:
1 Card in Hand
Opp. @ 11

So you now have 1 card in your hand and your opponent is still at 11, maybe 8 if you had another :r: spell. I really don't want to be stuck with one card in my hand while my opponent sits there and recovers. Point the bot and The burn spell that Sparky should have been at you opponents head and now they are @ 5 with on card in your hand.

[bigbear102]

The only real threat in existence to Spark Elemental is Mogg Fanatic, OR TOPDECKING HIM ON TURN FIVE OR SO WHEN YOU'RE IN A CLOSE DAMAGE RACE and your opponent has a creature he/she just summoned.


emphasis added...

That is the most important reason that Sparky should not be played. He can be dead. No other spell in the deck is dead unless it is countered. Every card except for land off the top can be played for some sort of an effect, and an immediate effect. Spark Elemental is the only card that is completely nullified by something other than a counterspell, sans Humility stopping Fanatic, but that means they paid 4 to stop 1 damage.

Burn cannot afford to have a dead card late game. You already play about 18 land which can lose you the top deck game, you don't want 4 more conditional cards in your deck.

[Tacosnape]

So in a deck that depends on Burn alone to, you are going to use up two spells to kill a Goyf. So now if you went turn one land, :r: burn spell, turn 2, land Burn Spell, Burn Spell, turn 3 Cast Sparky and Bolt the Goyf.

End of Turn 1:
5 Cards in Hand
Opp. @ 17

End Turn 2:
3 Cards in Hand
Opp. @ 11

End Turn 3:
1 Card in Hand
Opp. @ 11


This really isn't an accurate assessment of how any burn hand in a build with Spark Elemental would -ever- play out.

First of all, you don't drop Spark Elemental if there's a 4-toughness blocker out. Duh. Secondly, you don't try to kill Tarmogoyf. You ignore Tarmogoyf.

Third of all, there's no way the situation happens where Spark Elemental is one of the spells you're casting on turn 3 unless your draw card for that turn was Spark Elemental, and even then you should have other options in your hand to cast with the option to wait on the Spark Elemental.

So, Sace, for the situation you describe to exist, the 9th card from the top of your library has to be a Spark Elemental. The chances of this in a standard 60-card build with 4 Elementals are 1 in 15. That means 14 out of 15 times, this scenario won't happen. That's pretty freaking good, if you ask me.

Otherwise, your opening play is Mountain, Spark Elemental to the dome, go, and Sparky works exactly like another 3 for 1 spell.

EDIT: @Bigbear: The number of close damage races in which you'll be involved in the first place will be dropped -because- you run Spark Elemental, making this largely a non-factor. The fact that you're running more 3-for-1's will buy you time, improve your consistency, and often give you an entire extra turn to play with, and if that turn is occasionally messed up by drawing a dead Spark Elemental, oh well. And not -all- topdecked Spark Elementals are dead.

[Wallace]

@Tacosnape Sorry I forgot to add the quote. I was refering to this statment...


I am a little conservative with my counters and would probably hold back my FoW's for PoP and fireblast, so I would not be too enthused at the possibility of having to bail out my gofy. What I am saying is, Sparkie and Bolt for one gofy seems like a good trade. With that in mind, I think Sparkie can be a fairly consistent lava spike. Just what our deck needs.

[DragoFireheart]

Alright, here's a question then:

Which is better, Sparkie or Chain of Plasma?

[Lemuria]

People, just listen, I went to a Tournament with Ball Lightning md and I know what I'm saying.

There will be times when you'll look at your hand and wish that creature would be a burn spell.

I would run anything before run another creature. Even Sudden Shock is better, as a uncounterable burn.

[Tacosnape]

Sudden Shock is a terrible idea. So is Chain of Plasma. Anything that's not doing 2 damage higher than the amount of mana you're paying for it has potential to be really bad.

Ball Lightning is a world of difference from Spark Elemental because you can't drop a Ball Lightning on turn one. Turn one Spark Elementals almost always get through. Ball Lightnings have a much lower connect rate.

@Sace: You have a valid point as far as that you shouldn't ever be spending double burn spells on a Tarmogoyf.

[DragoFireheart]

Sudden Shock is a terrible idea. So is Chain of Plasma. Anything that's not doing 2 damage higher than the amount of mana you're paying for it has potential to be really bad.

Ball Lightning is a world of difference from Spark Elemental because you can't drop a Ball Lightning on turn one. Turn one Spark Elementals almost always get through. Ball Lightnings have a much lower connect rate.


I think I will -4 Chain of Plasma and +4 Sparkie and see how that works out.

[Lemuria]

I didn't say that Sudden Shock is good. I was trying to say that every burn spell is better then a creature.

Spark Elemental might be good on turn one, but if your opponent drops any creature, that would be 2 or 3 less damage to his dome. You lose games because of 3 points of life.

[DragoFireheart]

I didn't say that Sudden Shock is good. I was trying to say that every burn spell is better then a creature.

Spark Elemental might be good on turn one, but if your opponent drops any creature, that would be 2 or 3 less damage to his dome. You lose games because of 3 points of life.

So is sparkie better or worse than chain of plasma?

[Wallace]

So is sparkie better or worse than chain of plasma?

Worse!!!! What part of

.... I was trying to say that every burn spell is better then a creature....
Did you not understand?
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ONS/en-us/Card12449.jpghttp://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/10E/EN/Card129577.jpg
^^^^^^^^^^^Better than ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Bovinious]

Lemuria was saying any spell was better than any creature, so I think you misread Sacearuse, unless that was /sarcasm.

[Soto]

And chain of plasma is?

A spell, yes. While Elemental is a creature. Thus Chain > Sparky.

[Ozymandias]

Is this deck best off trying to race the Counterbalance lock or siding in enchantment removal?

[Soto]

REB or pyroblast...or both

[Ozymandias]

Well, REB/Pyro are obviously out of the question. You can't side out quality burn for something that can get countered by the very thing it's aiming to destroy.

The question is better phrased as a) Side in Krosan Grip? b)Rawdog Fireblast/Flamebreak/Rift Bolt? or c) side in Urza's Rage?

[DragoFireheart]

Worse!!!! What part of

Did you not understand?
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ONS/en-us/Card12449.jpghttp://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/10E/EN/Card129577.jpg
^^^^^^^^^^^Better than ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, Sparkie is a 3-1 ratio compared to a 3-2 ratio.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well, Sparkie is a 3-1 ratio compared to a 3-2 ratio.

Indeed :smile:

[porcupinetreeman]

Well, Sparkie is a 3-1 ratio compared to a 3-2 ratio.

That is true, but you don't want burn spells that die to every removal in the format.

My current list is:

19 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic

3 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Rift Bolt
2 Price of Progress

SB:
2 PoP
4 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 REB
4 Sulferic Vortex
2 Flaring Pain

I've been using this list and it has been working well.

[bigbear102]

Ok, if you guys want to run Spark Elemental, go for it. People who have played the deck to relative success have ruled it out as one of the best spells to play. I personally would not play Chain or Sparky, but if I was going to play 1 it would be Chain.

My reason is the one I already stated, drawing a dead card is bad in burn. Spark Elemental is good against the goldfish, yes, so against combo play it all you want. Against control and aggro it's not nearly as good. Turn 1 it is good, but you can't count on having a spell in your hand turn 1 to justify playing it.

If you want to play spark Elemental, then play Sparky, Marauders, Jackal Pups, and Lightning Serpent (look it up bitchez). Creatures go in sligh, burn spells go in burn.

I'm getting sick of this back and forth. If you want to find out what's good play it in a tournament. Take whoever's side you believe to be more persuasive and correct.

[DragoFireheart]

WotC just needs to make 1 or 2 more 3-for-1 burn spells. If they did that this wouldn't be a problem. :smile:

[LordEvilTeaCup]

WotC just needs to make 1 or 2 more 3-for-1 burn spells. If they did that this wouldn't be a problem. :smile:

This is so sadly true... Meh, this deck is fun to play but should I just hang up my deck until that hallowed day? This deck seriously needs something.

Heh, my friend used to play Sligh so I know all of those creatures Bear. I hear what you are saying, and I don't feel Sparkie is optimal either. I would never ever bring burn to a serious tourney so I don't think I am getting those test results... With that being said, Burn right now is not winning with its current set-up. Surely there is something new or maybe unfairly discredited that could at least push the deck up a bit. I realize this deck has been around a long time, and innovation is almost impossible. However, in my novice burn mind I believe if we go for a faster goldfish things might improve a bit. Consistency and lack of dead draws is nice, but I think our speed and damage potential is more important in the current meta. Play as it is now, and you lose. Probably play it less consistent and more explosive, and perhaps you still might find yourself losing. However, why hold onto what is not working?

I am right back to not liking the Fanatic. I want to kill as fast as possible. Period. I probably should be playing combo, but its too late and I already bought my burn cards:tongue: So nevermind whats better, what is the fastest burn list you can possibly make (strangely enough I would not want to remove Magma Jet even in a build that says screw consistency)?

[Sims]

WotC just needs to make 1 or 2 more 3-for-1 burn spells. If they did that this wouldn't be a problem. :smile:


Hmmm...... So, 5 or 6 spells that are 3-for-1... And you're going to run how many cards to kill chalice so you don't have more than half your business spells invalidated?

[bigredmeanie]

Hmmm...... So, 5 or 6 spells that are 3-for-1... And you're going to run how many cards to kill chalice so you don't have more than half your business spells invalidated?


That's not really a valid point, as this deck already loses to Chalice.

[Lemuria]

That's not really a valid point, as this deck already loses to Chalice.


Actually, CorruptedAngel post did make sense. I was able to win through a chalice set by one. PoP and Fireblast pwned him so much.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm...... So, 5 or 6 spells that are 3-for-1... And you're going to run how many cards to kill chalice so you don't have more than half your business spells invalidated?

I wouldn't mind taking that risk myself. There Shattering Spree in the board, and the very likely possibility that opponent doesn't play Chalice. If I could I would have 20 Lightning Bolts and call it a day. If I lost to chalice set at one, oh well. Meh, its hard to argue with someone though if they have Spike in their avatar (I am pretty sure that is some Spike eye action)... I think I auto lose either way. Spike is just so much pwnage.

[Ozymandias]

Another question: What is this deck's plan vs. combo?

I expect that Flamebreak and Shattering Spree are rather useful against EtW and Belcher, but what does this deck do when it comes up against Tendrils? I guess the plan is just to race, right?

[Lemuria]

Another question: What is this deck's plan vs. combo?

I expect that Flamebreak and Shattering Spree are rather useful against EtW and Belcher, but what does this deck do when it comes up against Tendrils? I guess the plan is just to race, right?

Pyrostatic Pillar

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Pyrostatic Pillar

Yeah, they are playing so many LED's, Rituals, and recur them with Ill-Gotten Gains. That is a lot of pain if you get it down early.

[Sims]

That's not really a valid point, as this deck already loses to Chalice.


The deck can still play around chalice unless there is a resolved Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 2, which leaves just Fireblast, Flamebreak, a useless Browbeat in certain builds (sure, draw 3 dead cards), and Rift Bolt. Chalice at 1 alone does hurt, but in builds running a slightly more balanced curve there is a lot more resilience in having Magma Jet, Incinerate, Price/flame rift/CoPlasma/Volc Hammer/Whatever-your-2+-mana-poison-is... If you added 2 more 1-for-3s than you'd probably drop the Incinerates and many people would argue Magma Jet (if you run price, 1 for 3 is better than 2 for 2 despite scry) and though if you don't run Price and instead use one of the other options you'd probably drop that and either Jet or Incinerate.... This block of text summed up means if you had 6 options for "Bolts" than your only spells that don't cost 1 would be ONE two mana card (incinerate or jet), Flamebreak, Fireblast, Rift Bolt, and depending on the deck Browbeat or Fork... That's a lot of dead draws, sitting in your hand doing nothing.

Too many 1-for-3's could be a bad thing, but that is based upon a metagame where people are using Chalice for other purposes (stax plan, or to hate certain decks/cards) or you rape and pillage and people start bringing the pain.


Aside: Yes, that is Spikes eye as he's falling out of a stained glass church window just before the grenade goes off.

[DragoFireheart]

Perhaps this is the end of burn? :frown:

It's just like Affinity in that it is simply too easy to hate out once people are aware of it's presence.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Perhaps this is the end of burn? :frown:

It's just like Affinity in that it is simply too easy to hate out once people are aware of it's presence.

:cry: NOOO!!!!!!!! Sorry, just felt this was a dramatic moment.

Burn has been pretty dead for a while, but its popularity still burns bright. It is a fun deck to play, and I will always carry it with me for some great casual games.

[Sims]

It's been dead for a long time. It's just fun, occasionally, to kick back and sling burn for fun in casual and when you just don't feel like playing a super competitive deck in weeklys and what not.

This thread probably won't die, but if it does, just bring up Lava Dart. It'll make this thread triple in size, I promise*


*and by triple in size I mean it'll get locked.

[DragoFireheart]

So which burn spell is better? Lava Dart or Shock?

...

Just kidding. :laugh:

Really though, I am looking for a filler for PoP as some decks I Vs don't run non-basic lands. Hitting PoP against those decks is slightly annoying.

Here's my current decklist:

Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic

Spells
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
3 Flamebreak
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt
4 [______]

Enchantments
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands
19 Mountain

Right now I am debating Keldon Marauders, Spark Elemental, Chain of Plasma or something else. It would be filler until I knew what deck I was going up against and then decide if I want to side in PoP or not.

[Lemuria]

So which burn spell is better? Lava Dart or Shock?

...

Just kidding. :laugh:

Really though, I am looking for a filler for PoP as some decks I Vs don't run non-basic lands. Hitting PoP against those decks is slightly annoying.

PoP just blows. Well, here is the list I'm running, maybe will give some lights:

18 mountains

4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Flame Rift
3 PoP
3 Flamebreak

[Wallace]

PoP just blows. Well, here is the list I'm running, maybe will give some lights:

Pop Blows!? Where the hell do you play legacy? Pop has beed the MVP in every tournament I have played in. I have done as much as 14 on the 3rd turn with it. Pop, most of the time, hits for 6-8 and the fact that the only Non-basic burn plays is Barb. ring, pop really has no draw back. Here is my latest burn list, has been doing really well in testing.

8BB

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Incinerate
2 Chain of Plasma
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble

3 Barbirian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain

or if the Baubles aren't your thing:

Toasty

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Incinerate
3 Magma Jet
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flame Rift
2 Flamebreak

3 Barbirian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain

[Peter_Rotten]

Those Baubles will be great for pumping up your opponent's Goyfs. I'd run more burn or replace them with 4 Taigas and 4 Goyfs. :wink:

[Wallace]

Those Baubles will be great for pumping up your opponent's Goyfs. I'd run more burn or replace them with 4 Taigas and 4 Goyfs. :wink:

This is BURN!! The one extra damage my opponents Goyf will do for 2 or 3 turns is ok cuz they will be dead!! Hasn't this already been talked about?


Going to the Dome is what burn does best, if I am missing somthing here, please tell me? Bolt your Face, Bolt your face, bolt your face,...Looks like going to the dome to me? Mogg Fanatic is the only creature that belongs in Burn.

[Lemuria]

Pop Blows!? Where the hell do you play legacy? Pop has beed the MVP in every tournament I have played in. I have done as much as 14 on the 3rd turn with it. Pop, most of the time, hits for 6-8 and the fact that the only Non-basic burn plays is Barb. ring, pop really has no draw back. Here is my latest burn list, has been doing really well in testing.




Didn't you understand what I meant by "blow"?

Lemme say it again:


PoP just blows. In other words, PoP rocks the house.

How can I not like PoP and still run them in my list? You just misreaded.


Also, Peter has some points. Making a goyf bigger is not actually the real issue, but cast a bauble and wait the next turn to draw a spell, where that bauble could be already a burn, could mean a game loss for you.

[Jak]

Didn't you understand what I meant by "blow"?

Lemme say it again:


PoP just blows. In other words, PoP rock the house.

How can I not like PoP and still run them in my list? You just misreaded.


Also, Peter has some points. Making a goyf bigger is not actually the real issue, but cast a bauble and wait the next turn to draw a spell, where that bauble could be already a burn, could mean a game loss for you.

That is not what blows mean. Anyway, I do not like baubles. Delayed draw is shit.

[Lemuria]

That is not what blows mean. Anyway, I do not like baubles. Delayed draw is shit.



Then I didn't make myself clear. Sorry for that.

Anyway, PoP is great.

[Wallace]

Didn't you understand what I meant by "blow"?

Lemme say it again:


PoP just blows. In other words, PoP rocks the house.

How can I not like PoP and still run them in my list? You just misreaded.


Also, Peter has some points. Making a goyf bigger is not actually the real issue, but cast a bauble and wait the next turn to draw a spell, where that bauble could be already a burn, could mean a game loss for you.


You are right, you have to wait a turn to draw the card. The only time I find them to be an issue is when you hit a Bauble off of the Bauble slowtrip. The Bauble's soul function is to let you play less expensive burn spells and less land. I am willing to take the small risk that I will hit a Bauble when I need a burn spell, not to mention that 16 of the spells I play are instant speed and can be cast when I draw them during my opponents turn.

Just so ya know " PoP just blows. " to me means you don't like it. I read it just the way you typed it.

[Ozymandias]

For future reference, "blows" refers to being the receptive member in oral copulation, a position many conisder degrading or suboptimal. I understand how this can be confusing, as "sucks" means the same thing while being an antonym.

In any case, I think that 4 PoP are absolutely necessary between the main and the side, when Loam decks are a competitive and powerful archetype.

[Lemuria]

Just so ya know " PoP just blows. " to me means you don't like it. I read it just the way you typed it.


Yeah, you're right on that. I realize that I wasn't clear.

[DragoFireheart]

PoP just blows.

Dude, whatever you are smoking I want some of it. :cool:

[Lemuria]

Dude, whatever you are smoking I want some of it. :cool:


hahahaha, ok, ok, I give up!!!! Sorry because my english is not that much. I actually want to meant exactly the opposite.


Now listen: Price of Progress is one of the greatest spells in the deck, if not the best:cool:

[DragoFireheart]

Now listen: Price of Progress is one of the best spells in the deck, if not the better:cool:

Which brings me back to my question of what a decent filler spell could be if your meta contains lots of Basic-Land decks. [Which mine does :rolleyes: ]

Off-Topic question: Does this forum discuss Two-Headed Legacy?

[Ozymandias]

I would suggest either Baubles, Street Wraith, or Flame Rift, depending on how suicidal you are.

[DragoFireheart]

I would suggest either Baubles, Street Wraith, or Flame Rift, depending on how suicidal you are.

I might start using flame rift. Chain of Plasma is just too annoying to go through the steps for.

Flame Rift will also deal massive damage in two-headed, along with Flamebreak and Sulfuric Vortex.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Is there a deck that does suck more than burn in 2headed?

[DragoFireheart]

Is there a deck that does suck more than burn in 2headed?

Burn with main-decked Vortexs, Flamebreaks and Flamerifts isn't too bad in Two-Headed. Just have your partner disruption the other-teams bombs while you burn the crap out of them. :laugh:

-------------------

Something about Flamerift is that it lets burn get a possible 3rd-turn clock.

1st: Play a Mountain, suspend Rift Bolt
2nd: Cast Rift Bolt, Play a Mountain, Cast Flamerift
3rd: Play a Mountain, cast a Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt and a Lava Spike. Cast Fireblast.

You can't do this with the other 2cc spells that burn normally uses. I may start using Flamerift for a faster clock, though it sucks in mirror.

[Lemuria]

I don't see any problem with flame rift, actually, quite the opposite.

I've been doing great with them, except against goblins, where I take one out and md another flamebreak.

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, oh god yes flamebreaks. They are the red "Wrath of God" so to speak. They pwn the crap out of aggro decks so hard it isn't even funny.

Well, except for some white weenies like Silver Knight.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm, yet another large Italian tourney where a burn deck tops 8. I am not sure if its just the meta or what, but Burn is doing alright there. For reference, here is what I am referring to.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587&page=25

I found the deck list online and it had many similarities to the other burn deck that placed.

5) volta giacomo - BURN

18 Mountains
2 Keldon Megaliths
4 Fanatics
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Flame rift
4 Chain Lighning
3 Flamebreak
3 Price of progress
3 Sulfuric vortex

SIDE:
3 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's crypt
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pithing Needle
1 Vortex
1 Price of progress
1 Flamebreak


The Keldon Megaliths was an odd choice, but maybe he couldn't afford losing life to the Ring with all the Rifts? Both of the decks that top 8'ed had a healthy amount of Vortex MB. Also, the SB is pretty interesting as well. I think I like the Needles if you see Belcher in you meta. Edit: I just noticed the lack of Magma Jet... That is indeed interesting.

[Lemuria]

Hmmm, yet another large Italian tourney where a burn deck tops 8. I am not sure if its just the meta or what, but Burn is doing alright there. For reference, here is what I am referring to.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587&page=25

I found the deck list online and it had many similarities to the other burn deck that placed.

5) volta giacomo - BURN

18 Mountains
2 Keldon Megaliths
4 Fanatics
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Flame rift
4 Chain Lighning
3 Flamebreak
3 Price of progress
3 Sulfuric vortex

SIDE:
3 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's crypt
3 Pillar
3 Pithing Needle
1 Vortex
1 Price of progress
1 Flamebreak


The Keldon Megaliths was an odd choice, but maybe he couldn't afford losing life to the Ring with all the Rifts? Both of the decks that top 8'ed had a healthy amount of Vortex MB. Also, the SB is pretty interesting as well. I think I like the Needles if you see Belcher in you meta. Edit: I just noticed the lack of Magma Jet... That is indeed interesting.


We usually SB some Pyrostatic Pillar, but it seems that there is no combo decks in Italy. Burn can easily deal with most aggros and aggro/control decks that not pack countertop.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

We usually SB some Pyrostatic Pillar, but it semms that there is no combo decks in Italy. Burn can easily deal with most aggros and aggro/control decks that not pack countertop.

There is some Pyrostatic Pillar in the board. Sorry, I shortened it to Pillar. I will fix it.

[Lemuria]

Ah, I saw it now...my bad.


Even then, seems strange. Which MUs he mb teh Pyrostatic PillaRzors when there was no combo?



I have a question. Isn't Sirocco a good card on the SB? I did well with it in the tournament, well, since we have some other blue decks besides Thresh

[ClearSkies]

I have a question. Isn't Sirocco a good card on the SB? I did well with it in the tournament, well, since we have some other blue decks besides Thresh

It does works wonders against MUC and that Reset-Brainfreeze deck if you get it to resolve.

It does seem like a pretty narrow card though.

[Wallace]

Ah, I saw it now...my bad.


Even then, seems strange. Which MUs he mb teh Pyrostatic PillaRzors when there was no combo?



I have a question. Isn't Sirocco a good card on the SB? I did well with it in the tournament, well, since we have some other blue decks besides Thresh


Sirocco was nice, now due to the fact that most control decks are 3 to 4 colors, it is inafective. The number of blue cards in a players hand will be small or they can just brainstorm is response and put two blue cards on top of libary.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I liked the Italian style of burn when playing around with it last night, so I changed my build.

Land

2 x Barbarian Ring
18 x Mountain

Burnination

4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
3 x Price of Progress
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Fireblast
3 x Flame Rift
3 x Flamebreak
4 x Incinerate
3 x Sulfuric Vortex

SB

3x Shattering Spree
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Crypt
1x Flame Break
1x Price of Progress
1x Vortex

I cut out creatures entirely to fit in the extra Vortex and Flame Rifts. My Ichorid matchup is weakened, so I threw in some Crypts in the board. I don't think that will save me so I might just take them out and focus more on other MU's. Overall though, I feel very comfortable with this build and like the interaction between the Vortex and Rifts. It puts the opponent that much closer to death (well it does that to you too...), and helps ensure that Flame Rift to be the last card they see.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Sirocco was nice, now due to the fact that most control decks are 3 to 4 colors, it is inafective. The number of blue cards in a players hand will be small or they can just brainstorm is response and put two blue cards on top of libary.

I agree!

The only burn spell that has some conditons you should play is price of progress!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

A few cards I was thinking of using lately are Pulse of the Forge, Firebolt, and Flames of the Blood hand. Have all these cards been deemed unworthy? They all seem to have merits at first glance, but is it just a case of having superior options?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Pulse never comes back to your hand
Firebolt is like shock because you could never pay the flashback!
Flames of the Blood is nice but a little expensive...

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Pulse never comes back to your hand
Firebolt is like shock because you could never pay the flashback!
Flames of the Blood is nice but a little expensive...

I was thinking there was some synergy between Rift and Pulse, but yeah I have to agree. However, I kinda like Flames of the Blood Hand. Not sure where you would put it, maybe if your meta was less creature heavy you would take out Flamebreak for it. Also, I would like to have a little feedback on my newest list. At this point, its kinda hard to discuss because the large differences of opinion. Still, I would appreciate it nonetheless.

[Iranon]

I've talked repeatedly about how good Pulse of the Forge is when you make good use of the synergies (Flame Rift, Rift Bolt, Seal of Fire, theoretically Keldon Marauder although I don't run that) and play intelligently. Sometimes that includes dodgy things like mana burning yourself or delaying the use of sweepers.

Pulse helps where Flames of the Blood Hand would (not as efficiently, but you don't have to have the mana open at exactly the right time).

It shines if you had to point burn elsewhere (Lackeys, Hippies, Meddling Mages, True Believers, early Goyfs when it looks like you might lose a straight race...).

It helps whenever you run out of steam... regardless of whether the reason was life gain (including a short Tendrils), counterspells, threats that warranted frying them or discard. This functionality can only be achieved by recurring damage sources. Other recurring damage sources suck royally when you don't need them; this is still solid if unexciting Burn.

The conditional nature is only relevant when the opponent has an overwhelming clock, in which other recurring damage is unlikely to save you either.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I've talked repeatedly about how good Pulse of the Forge is when you make good use of the synergies (Flame Rift, Rift Bolt, Seal of Fire, theoretically Keldon Marauder although I don't run that) and play intelligently. Sometimes that includes dodgy things like mana burning yourself or delaying the use of sweepers.

Pulse helps where Flames of the Blood Hand would (not as efficiently, but you don't have to have the mana open at exactly the right time).

It shines if you had to point burn elsewhere (Lackeys, Hippies, Meddling Mages, True Believers, early Goyfs when it looks like you might lose a straight race...).

It helps whenever you run out of steam... regardless of whether the reason was life gain (including a short Tendrils), counterspells, threats that warranted frying them or discard. This functionality can only be achieved by recurring damage sources. Other recurring damage sources suck royally when you don't need them; this is still solid if unexciting Burn.

The conditional nature is only relevant when the opponent has an overwhelming clock, in which other recurring damage is unlikely to save you either.

You definitely have my attention Iranon. Could you give me an example list of what you have in mind? I am already using Rift Bolt and Flame Rift, but I am somewhat hesitant to use seal of fire. Anyway, I see the beautiful synergy and think it could work. How effective was this synergy in practice? Doing a few loops and tricks to get some recurring dmg might be well worth it. Still, it seems a bit tough to pull off.

[Iranon]

Of course many things depend on what you expect to face... this is a slightly modified version from a time when Price of Progress didn't warrant a maindeck slot, and Cave-In possibly belongs as well.

19 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
3 Seal of Fire

3 Flame Rift
3 Magma Jet

4 Rift Bolt
4 Pulse of the Forge
4 Flamebreak

4 Fireblast




About the usefulness of the synergy... it's a fine point. Most of the games you don't really use it, but the subtle advantages seemed a big deal. Even if I had a slow hand, opponents would have to choose between running headlong into a Flamebreak or risk something stupid like EoT Pulse, Pulse, sacrifice a Seal, Fireblast.

I already listed the other benefits... I don't know, maybe I'm overrating them because it felt a lot better than it strictly was to have a bunch of tricks up my sleeve.
On the other hand... none of the components sucked on its own, and the disadvantage in goldfish time to other builds was pretty neglegible so I figure it's worth it.

These days, Price of Progress is better and Seal of Fire is weaker than at the time I fiddled with the concept (fuels Goyfs instead of stopping some creature-based combos without needing mana open). I'm not sure if this approach needs further tweaking or whether it's too slot-hungry in a meta where PoP belongs maindeck.

[Lemuria]

Of course many things depend on what you expect to face... this is a slightly modified version from a time when Price of Progress didn't warrant a maindeck slot, and Cave-In possibly belongs as well.

19 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
3 Seal of Fire

3 Flame Rift
3 Magma Jet

4 Rift Bolt
4 Pulse of the Forge
4 Flamebreak

4 Fireblast




About the usefulness of the synergy... it's a fine point. Most of the games you don't really use it, but the subtle advantages seemed a big deal. Even if I had a slow hand, opponents would have to choose between running headlong into a Flamebreak or risk something stupid like EoT Pulse, Pulse, sacrifice a Seal, Fireblast.

I already listed the other benefits... I don't know, maybe I'm overrating them because it felt a lot better than it strictly was to have a bunch of tricks up my sleeve.
On the other hand... none of the components sucked on its own, and the disadvantage in goldfish time to other builds was pretty neglegible so I figure it's worth it.

These days, Price of Progress is better and Seal of Fire is weaker than at the time I fiddled with the concept (fuels Goyfs instead of stopping some creature-based combos without needing mana open). I'm not sure if this approach needs further tweaking or whether it's too slot-hungry in a meta where PoP belongs maindeck.

IMO Seal is too slow, doesn't deal enough amount of damage and pimp others goyf.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Street Wraith and Baubles could work with PotF. I am not sure how much its worth ensuring that the forge gets back to your hand as 3 mana is expensive. Still, I think a build with Wraith, maybe fetches, and Flame Rift would get the job done. It seems risky, but at least its a fun experiment.

Edit: I have been thinking this over, and I this could be a pretty sweet idea. The only thing that really annoys me is that is a Flame Rift is a sorcery....

In this list I think you will be getting Pulse back to your hand quite often. However, it is a lotta damage self-inflicted damage. Most of these cards are good anyway, so Pulse is just capitalizing off the synergy.

3x Pulse of the Forge
3x Flamebreak
3x Flame Rift
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Price of Progress
4x Incinerate
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Street Wraith
4x Fireblast

3x Barbarian Ring
4x Bloodstained mire
12x Mountain

[Koby]

Why not play with 8 Baubles? (Urza's and Mishra's) over St Wraith? Pulse of the Forge will at MOST buyback once, but usually not if you're playing with the right tempo. The goal should be to thin your deck out as much as possible.

On the same token, if you do play on using Pulse, throw in 8 fetch lands ASAP. Easiest way to kill yourself is by inflicting fetchland pains.

[Wallace]

Pulse of the Fordge is not a good choice in Burn. Even with fetch lands and Street wraith's your opponent will alway have less life than you. I almost always have my opponent at 11 on the 2nd turn. Turn 3 comes around and now you are going to cast pulse? I don't know about you but if I am lower than my opponent on the 3rd turn and they are at 11 or less, I might be a little worried.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think Browbeat wins the slot of the 3cc burn spells!

But the inclusion of Browbeat or not was discussed over 1000 times...

But i like Keldon Maruders in the right burn deck!

[Wallace]

I think Browbeat wins the slot of the 3cc burn spells!

But the inclusion of Browbeat or not was discussed over 1000 times...

But i like Keldon Maruders in the right burn deck!

I have moved away from creatures all together in burn. If I was going to run a 3cc spell it would prob. be Flames of the Bloodhand. I have been thinking about running Wheel of Fate but have not tested it yet.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Pulse of the Fordge is not a good choice in Burn. Even with fetch lands and Street wraith's your opponent will alway have less life than you. I almost always have my opponent at 11 on the 2nd turn. Turn 3 comes around and now you are going to cast pulse? I don't know about you but if I am lower than my opponent on the 3rd turn and they are at 11 or less, I might be a little worried.

Oh yeah, I agree. It was more of a fun experiment if anything else. And yeah... it was still difficult to get the darn pulse back to my hand.

I for one though really like 4x Baubles and 4x Wraith for deck thinning purposes. One, I don't use fetch lands in my main build and no Flame Rift. The only pain I am really inflicting myself is Wraith and my Rings... Two, I don't like 8 baubles because of the ratio of sorcery to instants. With Wraith it doesn't matter. Also, drawing to many baubles can be a pain too. In most builds Wraith a risky, but if you don't use many self-damaging spells you should be fine.

I second that Browbeat wins the 3cc slot war. Its my new found friend. I dropped flamebreak for pure meta reasons.

[Ozymandias]

I would almost certainly play Sulfuric Vortex over Browbeat, because the damage over-time ratio is so much better. As well as the damage-per mana ratio. But I would play Flamebreak over either. For one thing, it gives you hope vs. EtW tokens. For another, your opponent can't buy a turn by giving you the cards. For a third, it takes care of a horde of Zombies.

[Wallace]

I would almost certainly play Sulfuric Vortex over Browbeat, because the damage over-time ratio is so much better. As well as the damage-per mana ratio. But I would play Flamebreak over either. For one thing, it gives you hope vs. EtW tokens. For another, your opponent can't buy a turn by giving you the cards. For a third, it takes care of a horde of Zombies.

Vortex was not in question, we all agree that in in the mian board. He said he doesn't play Flamebreak because of the meta he plays in. If aggro isn't big in your meta then Break is not needed. You will lose to ETW most of the time anyway, pre-board, Flamebreak is to slow to deal with ETW. I play Pyroclasm and Pyrostatic Pillar in the SB to deal with combo/ETW.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Vortex was not in question, we all agree that in in the mian board. He said he doesn't play Flamebreak because of the meta he plays in. If aggro isn't big in your meta then Break is not needed. You will lose to ETW most of the time anyway, pre-board, Flamebreak is to slow to deal with ETW. I play Pyroclasm and Pyrostatic Pillar in the SB to deal with combo/ETW.

I have been struggling to find the correct amount of Vortex's that should be MB'd. Once again it comes to meta, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on it. I went down to 2 myself.

[Wallace]

I have been struggling to find the correct amount of Vortex's that should be MB'd. Once again it comes to meta, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on it. I went down to 2 myself.

I run 2 Vortesies and 2 Flamebreaks. This seems to be the right mix for my meta. I have 3 Pyroclasm and 1 more Votex in the board just in case.

[ClearSkies]

I have been struggling to find the correct amount of Vortex's that should be MB'd. Once again it comes to meta, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on it. I went down to 2 myself.

I always keep 2 Vortex in my burn deck too. Opponent gaining in any way just sets me too back, especially as the game goes further and further.

Besides, it lets me constantly deal damage even when I don't play anything. Also, it is a must counter for pure control decks. (Like MUC in my meta)

How do you guys handle Chill? Each time I play my burn deck, it does pretty good until Chill hits the table.

[Wallace]

I always keep 2 Vortex in my burn deck too. Opponent gaining in any way just sets me too back, especially as the game goes further and further.

Besides, it lets me constantly deal damage even when I don't play anything. Also, it is a must counter for pure control decks. (Like MUC in my meta)

How do you guys handle Chill? Each time I play my burn deck, it does pretty good until Chill hits the table.


Hope that you have a blast in hand or you can scoop it up and go to the next game.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Lol, chill does suck... However, its really not wise play for an opponent to be packing chill. They are hating the wrong color, so usually you won't see that. I am sorry you had to go through that tragedy.

[The Rack]

Do you guys play REBs in the Board for chill? Whenever I play monoblue I always pack chill in the board, Sirocco is good too.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Do you guys play REBs in the Board for chill? Whenever I play monoblue I always pack chill in the board, Sirocco is good too.

Its not that bad of an answer. The only problem is, its really the only answer commonly used. Makes it vulnerable to just be countered followed by you scooping.

[The Rack]

A long time ago in a galaxy far away I would be fine with paying 4R to play a REB destroying one of their 2 chills. It happened to me more than a few times. And I later won that same game.

[ClearSkies]

Its not that bad of an answer. The only problem is, its really the only answer commonly used. Makes it vulnerable to just be countered followed by you scooping.

Yea, exactly. After a few times, of being in this situtation, and seeing many other people in my local tournament in this situation, this answer just isn't good enough.

One person in my local tournament devoted his whole sideboard to fight against MUC. (4x Sirocco, 4x red blast, 4x pyroblast, and 3x something else) Just couldn't break that Chill. Yea, it isn't the smart thing to do, but he just didn't like MUC, lol.

I guess splashing green for Krosan Grip is just overdoing it right?

[The Rack]

@Krosan Grip: I don;t think it is overdoing it. It might be what Burn needs to be that much more competitive. Maybe 1 Taiga 7 Fetchlands and 4 Grips in the board. It's either Grips or scooping right?

[outsideangel]

Chill is not a bit problem. One can win through Chill. It does not stop the playing of spells. You want a real problem, CounterTop is a real problem.

[Wallace]

Chill is not a bit problem. One can win through Chill. It does not stop the playing of spells. You want a real problem, CounterTop is a real problem.

Counter Top is a bigger problem than chill for one reason, no one plays chill! Chill in the board used to be good, no that goblins is on the decline and almost no one plays burn, I think it is a waste of a card in the board. I ran into chill the last time I played burn and was pissed. There were two goblin decks and my burn deck in the 30 man event. The guy said he knew I was playing burn and he saw goblins so he added it to his board. Chill was good against 3 decks in a 30 man field, waste of a card! The adding green idea for grip may be a good one, counter top is a bitch to deal with.

[DragoFireheart]

If we add green for Grip... We could add Tarmogoyfs too!

:laugh:

[Ozymandias]

No, because then you lose the virtual card advantage of playing no creatures, and tarmogoyf is slow compared to bolts.

[Wallace]

If we add green for Grip... We could add Tarmogoyfs too!

:laugh:

This is one of the only times I would disagree with adding Goyf. Creatures are to slow for burn to play with. Goyf in all of its awsomeness does not belong in burn.

[cianty]

A quick rules question:

Opponent has Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top combo assembled. I play Shattering Spree targeting Top and copy it once. I believe Counterbalance counters the played Spree but the copy still destroys the Top. Is this right?

[Lemuria]

How do you guys handle Chill? Each time I play my burn deck, it does pretty good until Chill hits the table.


Well, there's a really funny way to do it.


MD some fetches and Volcanic Islands. Then, you SB Alter Reality and scream BLUE SPELLS on his face :cool:

[Taurelin]

Opponent has Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top combo assembled. I play Shattering Spree targeting Top and copy it once. I believe Counterbalance counters the played Spree but the copy still destroys the Top. Is this right?


Theoretically yes. The original is countered by Counterbalance, while all copies aren't. The reason is that they aren't played, so Balance doesn't trigger. This is also a way to destroy Chalice of the Void @1 btw.

But: Your opponent will probably use the Tap-ability of Sensei's Top and hide it on top of his library until next turn. :tongue:

[cianty]

Theoretically yes. The original is countered by Counterbalance, while all copies aren't. The reason is that they aren't played, so Balance doesn't trigger.

That's what I meant.


This is also a way to destroy Chalice of the Void @1 btw.

Yeah, I know :smile:


But: Your opponent will probably use the Tap-ability of Sensei's Top and hide it on top of his library until next turn. :tongue:

Argh, dammit! Good point! I totally missed that! So much for that...

[badjuju]

@ Pulse of the Forge

If anyone played during Mirrodin standard, they'd know how good Pulse of the Forge was. Yes, you do have to know how to manage your life total and possibly mana burn yourself to abuse the card. A major reason why burn doesn't always do so hot is because, as most others stated, it runs out of gas. Pulse of the Forge acts as a lifesaver, especially if you're running against a clock. If you can last against some backbreaking aggro and get to 6 or so mana under 5 life (might require calculating mana burns by abusing phases), imagine the EOT: pulse, pulse, untap, pulse, pulse. What beats 16 damage off one card? Anyways I don't know what I'm talking about since I don't play burn, but I just want to say that the card is pretty nuts when played correctly.

[Wallace]

@ Pulse of the Forge

If anyone played during Mirrodin standard, they'd know how good Pulse of the Forge was. Yes, you do have to know how to manage your life total and possibly mana burn yourself to abuse the card. A major reason why burn doesn't always do so hot is because, as most others stated, it runs out of gas. Pulse of the Forge acts as a lifesaver, especially if you're running against a clock. If you can last against some backbreaking aggro and get to 6 or so mana under 5 life (might require calculating mana burns by abusing phases), imagine the EOT: pulse, pulse, untap, pulse, pulse. What beats 16 damage off one card? Anyways I don't know what I'm talking about since I don't play burn, but I just want to say that the card is pretty nuts when played correctly.

I will say it again,...


Pulse of the Fordge is not a good choice in Burn. Even with fetch lands and Street wraith's your opponent will alway have less life than you. I almost always have my opponent at 11 on the 2nd turn. Turn 3 comes around and now you are going to cast pulse? I don't know about you but if I am lower than my opponent on the 3rd turn and they are at 11 or less, I might be a little worried.

...and I know what I am talking about because I play bure all the time.

[Ozymandias]

This still leaves the elephant in the room of Counter-Top.

How do we deal with it? Is Grip really the best answer?

[Iranon]

I agree wholeheartedly with Yesmilord. Against fast Aggro, it is arguably superior to another sweeper because you have to be able to use the sweeper in time (draw it and have the mana... Goblins for example will use Port to prevent that if they can).

Pulse lets you recover from emergency use of your Burn when you finally draw it, greatly smoothing things out.
A 4-for-3 isn't terribly good but it's acceptable, and it's the only reusable damage source that isn't a total dud when it comes to getting reasonable goldfishes (hmm, the plural looks awful either way...).

Pulse isn't a no-brainer, but it's an acceptable choice and my personal favourite; no other card adds as much flexibility to the deck without cutting down significantly on the amount of fire to toss around. Yes, abusing it to the fullest requires jumping through hoops... but when it works it's worth it and if you don't need recurring damage it's still halfway decent (when compared to things such as Sulphuric Vortex, Cursed Scroll etc).

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well, does anyone think 7x Baubles and 4x Wraiths is just too much uncertainty and randomness? I started using them in the first place to get rid of Magma Jet. Now, I want to use 7 or 8 due to the fact I was still stuck with cards I felt weren't optimal ie Shock/Mog/Sparkie... I playtested it a few times, and it has worked ok overall. Sometimes even fantastic. Still, I imagine some nightmarish situations popping up like wraith into a bauble, then bauble into a bauble... In one game I did note that I Browbeated, and my opponent let me draw 3 cards. The 3 cards were land, Bauble, and Wraith. Knowing this would happen, I made sure to cast Browbeat on my turn. So I drop the bauble and land, and then cycleed my wraith. My Wraith found a bauble and I dropped it... During my opponent's upkeep I drew 2 cards. Long story short, all that work netted me a single Bolt! I think that is pretty rare happening, and basically my 3cc spell said 3 dmg on it there. So basically, lots of Baubles, Wraiths, and beating peoples' brows can bring some randomness to the table. Goyf also gets a nice banquet of creature and artifacts. Something that he would usually not get from your side otherwise. When its all said and done though, I like Bauble Wraithy burn over the more conventional. Just trying to find the right number.

About Counter-top, my strategy is to ignore its existence! If reality is perception, maybe it will work.

Edit: Meh, I have college work to do and I just found myself for the last hour playtesting my deck... Goddamn magic and its addictingness. Well, here is the fruit of my labor. It might look like an ugly bastard child, but I just ask that you playtest it and see how it runs before commenting. You really can't see how the Baubles and Wraiths work out by just looking at the list...

Deck Thinning
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Urza's Bauble
4x Street Wraith

3x Flame of the Blood Hand
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast

Mana

2x Barbarian Ring
16x Mountains

Well lets just say my SB will be very jam packed... I already mentioned why I took out flamebreak. I also took out Sulfuiric Vortex (with fear and intrepidation mind you and it will be SB'ed) due to it being a sorcery. Instead I kinda half-assedly attempt to make for it with Flame of the Blood Hands. Its an instant, can prevent life gain, and deals 4 dmg. Not too bad. I don't use fetch lands, because I am already giving Gofy too much feed and Wraiths hurt me enough. With this list, I have 22 spells that I can use as an instant (for those who don't know, you can cycle Wraith with instant speed.) Thus, my baubles very consistently net me something I can use or I already have another instant to throw at my opponent already in hand. I loving the way it plays! I am getting turn 4 kills at a nice rate. I hated some many cards and the lack of another 1cc spell that did 3 dmg always. This is my answer to that at least.

[Wallace]

Well, does anyone think 7x Baubles and 4x Wraiths is just too much uncertainty and randomness? I started using them in the first place to get rid of Magma Jet. Now, I want to use 7 or 8 due to the fact I was still stuck with cards I felt weren't optimal ie Shock/Mog/Sparkie... I playtested it a few times, and it has worked ok overall. Sometimes even fantastic. Still, I imagine some nightmarish situations popping up like wraith into a bauble, then bauble into a bauble... In one game I did note that I Browbeated, and my opponent let me draw 3 cards. The 3 cards were land, Bauble, and Wraith. Knowing this would happen, I made sure to cast Browbeat on my turn.

Well browbeat is a sorcery so I hope you cast it on your turn...:confused:

[bigbear102]

Well browbeat is a sorcery so I hope you cast it on your turn...:confused:

You beat me to it... damn you!!!

Anyway, I would play Vortex over Ogre Dakken (gogo IBA speak) aka Flames of the Blood Hand. I also probably wouldn't play either, unless you really see a lot of life gain in your meta. Unless people are recurring 3-4 life every turn (Pulse of the Fields, survival getting baloth every turn...) you shouldn't have a problem.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well browbeat is a sorcery so I hope you cast it on your turn...:confused:

Darn you Browbeat! This is what happens when you proxy shit up. My whole life I played Ug Madness (back when it was good...) or some other aggro-control so I am screwing up all over place with little details. *Shakes fist at the color Red* I will learn you some day, just you wait.

Anyway, I am using Ogre Dakken (way cooler name) merely because its an instant and pretty descent. I do wonder about the validity of what I am doing here. I am attempting to only use the best burn cards, but find I must then use worse cards to support my thinning... Its like a paradox! Although I feel that Ogre Dakken is not overwhelming inferior to other options and better descent just for being 3 for 4. Maybe it could become a PotF or something else, but I am looking for a nice 4 dmg spell with instant speed. I always seem to be 1 short of killing my opponent without it and Rift is a sorcery as well. For those more experienced with Baubles, am I being overly paranoid? Can I safely lower my instants count?

Magma Jet is nice, because it deals damage/scry all in one and you don't have to worry about the same shenanigans that you would with baubles. So far though, I think I prefer baubles/wraiths thus far but I have gained new respect for the Jet.

[Wallace]

I have been testing with Baubles for over a month now, they are really good, I recently switched to 4 x Bauble 4 x Street Wraith, this seems to work better. Now you don't have to worrie to much about running lots 'o' instants. Wizards could make this a little easier and just print another :r: for 3 burn spell!!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I have been testing with Baubles for over a month now, they are really good, I recently switched to 4 x Bauble 4 x Street Wraith, this seems to work better. Now you don't have to worrie to much about running lots 'o' instants. Wizards could make this a little easier and just print another :r: for 3 burn spell!!

Can you show me your list? As I posted before, I started with 4 Bauble and 4 Wraith. To my chagrin, I was still left with cards I felt were crap. Maybe if you use Flame Rift you can use 4 Bauble and 4 Wraith, but I am concerned with the amount of damage you are doing to yourself. Otherwise, even with 4 Bauble and Wraith, I am sure you will be left with some cards you would rather do without. Also, I am starting to like the 3 for 4's as it is usually the magic number to bring my opponent to death. I suppose if we find Wraith and Rift to be an acceptable risk, we will be killing pretty quickly.

[Wallace]

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Incinerate
2 Chain of Plasma
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

3 Barbirian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain

The only card that I don't like in this list is Chain of Plasma, and that isn't that bad. Flame rift is to risky, I played it in my first burn list and it was not fun.

[The Rack]

Sacearuse: I would play your exact list with te exception of 2 Magma Jet in place of Chain of Plasma. I think Burn needs that consistency and never wants to see 2 Mountains on the top of your library in a row. My 2 cents.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Incinerate
2 Chain of Plasma
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

3 Barbirian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain

The only card that I don't like in this list is Chain of Plasma, and that isn't that bad. Flame rift is to risky, I played it in my first burn list and it was not fun.

I don't like Chain of Plasma myself. I would rather use Thunder Bolt, but I guess its taste. Still, I think you can make a case for getting rid of Chain, and Rift for baubles. I think its hard not going all the way with the Baubles. You only have to sacrifice the Vortex, which admittedly is not fun because Vortex is fun.

[Wallace]

Sacearuse: I would play your exact list with te exception of 2 Magma Jet in place of Chain of Plasma. I think Burn needs that consistency and never wants to see 2 Mountains on the top of your library in a row. My 2 cents.


I had the same thought, then I tested Jet, 2cc for 2 damage was a bit of a turn off, the only reason I am running Chain is because it is an instant and it is 2cc for 3 damage. I guess that is 2 reasons but you get my point?

Thunderbolt is fine, if the rest of your burn deck isn't PIMPED OUT!! If I could get foil Thunderbolts I may use them. Another ok 2cc instant burn spell is Sonic Burst, you have to discard a card to cast it but it does 4 damage. This is a good use for the extra land or baubles you may draw.

[redmage]

Thunderbolt is fine, if the rest of your burn deck isn't PIMPED OUT!! If I could get foil Thunderbolts I may use them.

Bah, your Chain Lightnings aren't foil, and I don't see that stopping you from running them.

Run what works best for your meta, and the deck. Not just what you can find in foil.

[zulander]

I don't read the burn forum that much but I do have a couple of questions. Has anyone tried Sensei's top/howling mine/wheel of fate? It seems to me that the biggest problem burn has is it keeps running out of burn or keeps running into mana.

[Wallace]

Bah, your Chain Lightnings aren't foil, and I don't see that stopping you from running them.

Run what works best for your meta, and the deck. Not just what you can find in foil.


Yeah but the diff. between Chain of Plasma and Thunderbolt is small, Iwould rather run chain because if your opponent does throw it back then you can return the favor. I don't run things just because they are foil, chain lightning is to good not to run, so I deal with the fact that they can't be foil.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Yeah but the diff. between Chain of Plasma and Thunderbolt is small, Iwould rather run chain because if your opponent does throw it back then you can return the favor. I don't run things just because they are foil, chain lightning is to good not to run, so I deal with the fact that they can't be foil.

I have Italian Chain Lightning... I think that is kinda pimp as the Italians are the Gods of Burn.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I apologize for the double post. I was wondering how does our matchup against combo look after we SB in Pyrostatic Pillars? Of course it matters which combo we are going against, but I think its a horrible match up for us either way. They are just plain faster. My point is, maybe we should forgo some MU's entirely and focus on winning others. Could there be a better SB card than Pyrostatic Pillars for the modern meta? I never took burn to a tourney so I would appreciate strong analysis from those who actually play Burn in tournaments.

[cann0nfodder]

I have played Burn and TES and I have found that pyrostatic pillar is basically worthless. The only deck that must answer a pillar before it can win is High Tide. I have seen pillars dropped against me before and I simply stormed until I had enough life left to survive a fireblast and then threw a tendrils at the burn player's face which left him unable to kill me under his own pillar. I then waited for as long as I wanted before I finished him off with a second tendrils.

The best defense against storm combo is to play cards like chalice of the void or maybe even thorn of amethyst on your sideboard. Chalice at zero on turn one can often slow down a storm combo deck such as TES or Belcher just long enough for you to win. Also although thorn of amethyst does slow you down, It must be dealt with before a storm player can win. I havent tested thorn before in a burn vs. combo match up but it should be much more detrimental to your opponent since it makes all of your opponent's 0cc artifacts and rituals cost one more than it is to you since it just makes you pay an extra 1 for your spells. Regardless, I would much rather play chalices on my SB than pyrostatic pillars.

[cianty]

Hey y'all. I went 3-1 with this list at a small local tourney

3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt

4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
1 Fork
3 Browbeat
2 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast
2 Rolling Earthquake

18 Mountain


I don't take burn usually but I felt my metagame allowed to do it, so I went with it for the fun of it.

Quick report:

Round 1: 2-1 Threshold
No counterbalance, so this was almost easy. Keldon Marauders are the only way to keep up with 'goys and geese.

Round 2: 2-0 Goblins
4 maindecked sweepers plus I drew like god. These were the easiest games all night.

Round 3: 2-0 R/G/B Beats
Way too slow to stand a chance against me.

Round 4: 0-2 CRET Belcher
I should have dropped before this match...
First round he made like 12 tokens. I didn't get the Earthquake to get rid of them in time.
Second game he had the first turn kill.


Conclusion: Burn is always fun to play. If you know your meta game very well you might actually go well with it. The belcher player made his first appearance. Next time I won't choose Burn again, though.

[The Rack]

I think Chalice at 0 would be great for the Burn decks that dont run Baubles. Thats the problem. Needles could work to stall Belcher a bit but besides those 3 I don't see any real great answers besides them. My 2 cents.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ok, it looks like we are in agreement then. Unfortunately since I play the Bauble version, Chalice of the Void won't be seeing action in my SB. Hmmm, that is a definite plus for not playing Baubles though. Bringing in Pithing Needle against Belcher would be a strong play as well so who knows. Does anyone have any secret tech to share? I am leaning towards throwing some Crypts in the board myself.

[cianty]

Chalice would have been completely useless as he didn't play a single 0cc spell. Needle and Earthquake were the only chances I had but you can't count on having both of them in hand. Don't play Burn on large tournaments or otherwise, if you are religious, pray to god you don't paired against combo. It's simple as that.

[largebrandon]

Chalice would have been completely useless as he didn't play a single 0cc spell. Needle and Earthquake were the only chances I had but you can't count on having both of them in hand. Don't play Burn on large tournaments or otherwise, if you are religious, pray to god you don't paired against combo. It's simple as that.

I disagree. Pyrostatic Pillar is amazing against ANY storm based combo. Needle is there for other combo, as is tormod's crypt.

[redmage]

This still leaves the elephant in the room of Counter-Top.

How do we deal with it? Is Grip really the best answer?

I suppose, if Counter-Top is really prevalent in your meta, and if you wanted to stay Mono-Red, you could always sideboard 2-4 Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

Then, depending on what you run, you could hardcast any of these without worry:
Price of Progress
Incinerate
Magma Jet
Rift Bolt
Flame Rift
Chain of Plasma
Browbeat, Flames of the Bloodhand, Vortex, etc...

[Wallace]

I suppose (if you wanted to stay Mono-Red) you could always sideboard 2-4 Boseiju, Who Shelters All if Counter-Top is really prevalent in your meta.

Then, depending on what you run, you could hardcast any of these without worry:
Price of Progress
Rift Bolt
Incinerate
Chain of Plasma
Flame Rift
Magma Jet
Browbeat, Flames of the Bloodhand, Vortex, etc...

Plus, most lists that run Counter-Top can't really do much vs. Fireblast.

Great Idea man, I was talking about the same thing on the way to New York city for champs. 2-3 Boseiju in the board is a great idea. Just being able to force through a Price of Progress will win you most games. Boseiju offers you a way out of a Counter/Top lock or just lets you drop spells against any control deck. I think the best part is that no one will see it coming, shhhhh...don't tell anyone...:wink:

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Its starting to get old, but once again I am seeing burn T8'ing AGAIN in Italy. The meta did not seem that janky from looking at the top 8 lists, so what is going on? Are we missing something here? There was even combo in the meta this time! Not only there, I see it doing alright in some smaller tournies elsewhere. Maybe Burn is can get the job done, due to hate being somewhat rarer in a larger tourney where they to worry about other decks. Once again their SB were pretty unique. Devastating Dreams in particular seemed unusual. Sirocco too find itself in one of the decks SB. Other than that, the two burn decks used 4x Flamebreak and once again 4x Sulfuric Vortex. Are they using it more for the continual damage and for creating a race than life gain purposes?

[Wallace]

Its starting to get old, but once again I am seeing burn T8'ing AGAIN in Italy. The meta did not seem that janky from looking at the top 8 lists, so what is going on? Are we missing something here? There was even combo in the meta this time! Not only there, I see it doing alright in some smaller tournies elsewhere. Maybe Burn is can get the job done, due to hate being somewhat rarer in a larger tourney where they to worry about other decks. Once again their SB were pretty unique. Devastating Dreams in particular seemed unusual. Sirocco too find itself in one of the decks SB. Other than that, the two burn decks used 4x Flamebreak and once again 4x Sulfuric Vortex. Are they using it more for the continual damage and for creating a race than life gain purposes?


After Top 8ing this weekend at TMLO III with Goyf Sligh I figured out what this deck needs. Taqrmogoyf, Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic and one other creature. I played burn in 4 legacy events before I switched to Goyf Sligh and I have to say that Sligh is way more playable in the current meta. Burn runs out of gas and bends over to heavy counter magic. With Sligh you can fight through hate with creatures. Now your opponent has to deal with 3 point spells being thrown at there head every turn and "The Besta creaturea eva"...to quote a very intoxicated Kenji Tsumura.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

After Top 8ing this weekend at TMLO III with Goyf Sligh I figured out what this deck needs. Taqrmogoyf, Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic and one other creature. I played burn in 4 legacy events before I switched to Goyf Sligh and I have to say that Sligh is way more playable in the current meta. Burn runs out of gas and bends over to heavy counter magic. With Sligh you can fight through hate with creatures. Now your opponent has to deal with 3 point spells being thrown at there head every turn and "The Besta creaturea eva"...to quote a very intoxicated Kenji Tsumura.

I love Sligh of any style and with this Gofy sligh brew looks hot. Its outta reach for me though. The duals, the fetch, the gofy... thats why I forever rock out the mono colored whatever. It got class of its own. Heh, whose kidding who if I had the cards I would play Gofy sligh in a heartbeat. Still, I found it interesting that burn has been doing well in some areas. Is that just meta luck? I think probably but who knows.

[Curby]

Ugh, I'm quickly moving away from Chain of Plasma. The whole point of burn is to play as few permanents as possible. My build uses 4 Fanatics and basic Mountains in the main, period. This means that my opponent will likely have far more dead cards in hand than I do, and Chaining will actually help him more than me. Turning Incinerate into a free Lightning Bolt only saves me 2 mana. Turning a Krosan Grip, StP, etc. into a free Lightning Bolt is free damage for the opponent. If we weren't trying to generate card advantage by neutering opponents' cards, Chain would be at least passable. Giving the opponent more fuel in a damage race is not a good idea.

I'm on the fence with Browbeat. In close games, you cannot use it at the end or they'll simply let you draw. If there's no Fireblast there, they'll watch you discard to 7 and win the game. In the early game, you're busy tapping out for your assorted Bolts and Incinerates, and there are games where you might not even see 3 land (at least if you play under 20 like I do). Situational cards are horrible, especially in a deck where there is no card draw and little card quality, so you MUST make sure that every card can guarantee as much damage as possible. Ask yourself why Burn uses Mogg Fanatic but not Spark Elemental.

Burn's two problems are concentrated hate (play Aegis of Honor against burn and watch their jaw drop) and weak card draw/manipulation. Due to the second problem, I cannot see myself ever taking Magma Jet out. Even then, 2x Hymn to Tourach means game pretty much every single time.

I've updated my list to a more suicide version with Flame Rifts. Flame Rift and Fire Blast kills from 8 life using only 2 cards and 2 land, greatly reducing the safety zone for an opponent. I'm using 6 sweepers because of my critter-heavy meta, and may switch out Flamebreak for Pyroclasm for the enhanced sweep speed. Price of Progress in the side is another metagame decision, but Flame Rifts and sweepers would come out for them in a more typical meta.

http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm

P.S. I also have a Bauble build that goes nuts with fetches as well, letting us run a really lean deck. The side effect of that is Helix in the main and Disenchant effects in the side, though Green with Grip would be better.

[Iranon]

I much prefer Cave-In over Pyroclasm. Cave-In can actually speed you up on mana-light hands.
While ususally Burn doesn't need acceleration, a 0-mana card that said 'Add 1r to your mana pool. Straw Fire deals 2 damage to each player' would rock. That's what the card you pitch turns into for all intents and purposes.

[Curby]

I much prefer Cave-In over Pyroclasm. Cave-In can actually speed you up on mana-light hands.
While ususally Burn doesn't need acceleration, a 0-mana card that said 'Add 1r to your mana pool. Straw Fire deals 2 damage to each player' would rock. That's what the card you pitch turns into for all intents and purposes.

Begin rambling rant: :tongue:

You're pretty much never going to hardcast Cave-In, the alternate casting cost (ACC) sucks, and its effect sucks for either casting cost. Cave-in costs 5, but Earthquake for 2 damage costs 3. It's still a Sorcery, so you can't sweep a bunch of hasty Bridge tokens or play it in response to the second Imperious Perfect/Muscle Sliver/Mad Auntie/Merrow Reejery. Pretty much any flier in Legacy is huge (Tombstalker, Exalted Angel) or tiny and boltable (Birds of Paradise, Hypnotic Specter) and never comes in swarms, so the ability to hit fliers is negligible.

What about using the ACC? If he gives his guys haste, it doesn't help. If he casts Duress or Cabal Therapy to pull disruption or sweepers from your hand, it can't be cast in response. Cave-In only helps us more than other sweepers if someone makes an army quickly or combines it with Armageddon, gives us a turn after that point to respond, and doesn't disrupt our hand. That's a bit of a stretch to consider maindecking it over other sweepers. If it were an Instant, one might at least consider it.

Note that the alternate cost itself is crap. Burn needs all the card advantage it can get, so with that in mind consider when this would really be a good idea. Against a nontoken creature army, you use two cards but might kill a bunch, but that army usually takes a while and you would have had a chance to cast another spell (Pyroclasm et. al.). If you're just killing tokens, there's a chance they can go off again, and you're not really gaining card advantage unless they expended themselves making the first token army.

Just as serious Legacy doesn't use most Auras anymore because of the possibility of 2-for-1 plays, Cave-In allows the opponent to 2-for-1 us, and the thing we'll lose isn't extra Mountains but all-important gas that we'd need to win with. Since we'll almost never hardcast this, it always swallows another spell, and a counter will be a 2-for-1 play every time.

I might try Cave-In, but it really seems like a bad deal in every respect. I'd rather have other cards to kill swarms, and I'd rather have other cards to kill the opponent. I'm not saying it's never the right card to win games, but almost everything will at one point be "just the right card." Please convince me otherwise. :wink:

[ClearSkies]

You're pretty much never going to hardcast Cave-In, the alternate casting cost (ACC) sucks, and its effect sucks for either casting cost. Cave-in costs 5, but Earthquake for 2 damage costs 3. It's still a Sorcery, so you can't sweep a bunch of hasty Bridge tokens or play it in response to the second Imperious Perfect/Muscle Sliver/Mad Auntie/Merrow Reejery. Pretty much any flier in Legacy is huge (Tombstalker, Exalted Angel) or tiny and boltable (Birds of Paradise, Hypnotic Specter) and never comes in swarms, so the ability to hit fliers is negligible.


Flamebreak deals 3 damage for 3 mana, and can't regenerate. Rolling Earthquake affects all creatures except creatures with Horsemanship. However, 1 Rolling Earthquake usually cost more than the entire Burn Deck themselves...

[Iranon]

@kirbysd:

Ok, I'll expound on my short statement a little then... two can ramble :P

I was merely comparing Cave-In to Pyroclasm, a card you brought up and one I believe to be simply horrible.
To get one thing out of the way: Both are save-my-ass cards that will suck when they aren't, in fact, saving your ass. I assumed you have a reason to run either: there are concerns that are best solved with a sweeper but for which Flamebreak - usually the best choice because it also deals 3 for 3 and a single card - is dangerously slow.

***

Most of your points against Cave-In are not relevant to a direct comparison:
The sweeper effects of the cards are identical, 2 damage to everything including flyers, at sorcery speed. Neither will save you from fat, combo creatures that win the game immediately or sufficient quantities of hasty stuff.

Your disaffection with the alternate casting cost is understandable, but you seem to ignore the 'drawback' of Pyroclasm. Pitching a precious Burn spell might cause you to run out of gas, but so might running a spell that doesn't hurt the opponent in the first place; if you truly count Cave-In as a 1-for-2 you would have to count Pyroclasm as a dead card.

Assuming you need creature control early on, the card you pitched turned into half a Flame Rift that cost -2 mana. If it was a Bolt, you dealt 1 damage less in total (and 2 more to yourself) and spent 3 mana less - in my opinion a good trade-off in any Burn deck that doesn't run too much mana in the first place (remember, if we're running either of these as a playset chances are we have no spells that need 3 mana -> low land count).
Pitching a card for Cave-In *feels* like a larger sacrifice than spending mana and a card that sweeps but doesn't deal damage. This isn't really the case outside very specific circumstances (You need the sweeper early on, burn cards are a more important consideration than mana in the long run, and they counter it. And even then, Cave-In wins if the counter in question is Daze.)

If you don't need a sweeper, Cave-In gives you either the opportunity to deal 2 eventually if the game lasts that long (in which case both cards suck, Cave-In slightly less so. This is a realistic scenario against mono-anything control) or speed up your win in a hand with efficient burn spells but little land (likelyhood depending on your deck; quite high if you favour efficiency over soft benefits).

***

Should Cave-In be considered a staple in Burn? No. Outside builds that can directly abuse its lack of a mana cost (for example Not-Quite-Sligh variants with Sparks/Balls/Marauders) or a metagame pressure to have your sweepers online quickly, I'd rather rely on Flamebreak.

If the major problem is a bunch of Goblin tokens, Rolling Earthquake is a 2-mana answer that can also damage the opponent (doesn't always prevent them from swinging once though; only Cave-In or VERY narrow cards do that.) but that's as slow as Flamebreak in the face of Zombie hordes.
There are also a variety of useful sideboard cards to stop token hordes in time (Powder Keg is a 2-mana answer that also destroys morphs and chalices efficiently and has a trillion other applications; it shares the problem of not dealing damage to the opponent though).