Grixis Tempo

[alphastryk]

Been doing some testing of Young Pyromancer in a Grixis Tempo shell with Phazonmuant, here's where we're at so far. I've been very impressed with the card.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

8 blue fetch
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


Numbers may not be right, stole a lot of design from Canadian Threshold, but we've played games vs TES and Miracles to get to where it is now. Some notes on this - often you don't have a turn one play, which makes me think something is misbuilt. Do we need to try to fit Deathrite in here? Grim Lavamancer? Pierce / Snare / Stifle? Definitely save your Gitaxian Probes when possible to maximize Therapy and Young Pyromancer.

Quick try at the sideboard, not fully undertanding what matchups are bad:


1 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rakdos Charm

[saspook]

What is the proper number of humans to play before adding Cavern of Souls?

[KobeBryan]

What does this deck offer that RUG doesn't?

Rug has a 4/5 tarmogoyf for 1G. This deck doesn't offer any beaters.

[phazonmutant]

What is the proper number of humans to play before adding Cavern of Souls?

If we're playing 4 Daze, probably infinite. Or maybe as a 19th land? It's a reasonable sideboard card though.


What does this deck offer that RUG doesn't?

Rug has a 4/5 tarmogoyf for 1G. This deck doesn't offer any beaters.

This guy has consistently presented more power than Goyf in our testing and isn't vulnerable to grave hate. Also, spot removal is only ok against him. Black instead of green gets you extremely powerful, versatile disruption in the form of Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. We're not sure it's correct, but definitely worth exploring.

[nedleeds]

Grim Lavamancer does a nice job of drawing removal on the draw from creature decks. Could be defacto Duress for your Young Pyromancer ... but his inclusion probably merits a basic Mountain.

[KobeBryan]

Whats the point of using probe? This is a tempo deck, not a combo deck to see if you are safe to go off.

Why not just fill that slot with burns.

[L0cke]

I've been testing a little with this similar list, similar to what I played 2 weeks ago at the store after boarding, but with Bob and Young Pyromancer instead of Talrand.



4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
(12)

3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Flusterstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
(29)

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
(19)

Sideboard:

1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Perish
1 Force of Will



Its entirely possible that the basics are irrelevant and should be gone for more duals, however I personally like having non-wasteable lands to fetch up a lot, but thats maybe not what this deck needs. As alphastryk pointed out that week, and certainly it has been my experience since, Nivmagus elemental rapidly becomes functionally The Abyss for your opponent, often being 7/8 or 9/10 by turn three or four with a single Flusterstorm or early counter-war over something. He can still get Decayed, however so can Delver, and I think its often a faster clock than Delver as well. He also blocks Goyfs for days, and against damage based removal you will often get to waste your opponent's Bolt or whatever by Dazing it, then eating the Daze and letting the bolt resolve. Also I think Probe is excellent in this list, as it lets you know exactly what spells are safe to eat with Nivmagus, and what spells you need to save for something more relevant.

[YamiJoey]

Well I'm here with this:

(LEG) Grixis Delver

Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

I'd like to have some Stifles in here too, and I may cut a Sea for another fetch, but that's all neither here nor there. Without Stifle the Wastes seem a little less relevant, and I'm not playing Hymn, so mana denial isn't exactly plan A.

Tombstalker is better than 'Goyf. Always has been, always will be. Might look into cutting the Pierces for the card that kills something with toufhness less than the number of cards in your Graveyard, or a Dismember or something. Removal seems relevant in this format.

EDIT: Also Prove is a tempo card, especially in a deck that's playing Therapy. It allows you to play less Lands, and evaluate what your opponent's plan is. Tempo is a combo deck that goes off over the first four or five turns. Probe is so good.

[ivanpei]

I think in tempo decks, stalker >>> bob. Also, cabal works great with young pyro and probe. But if you cut cabal for hymm, you can cut the probes as well for other cards. That's how I would approach the build.

[HPB_Eggo]

If you're running counters and therapy with Pyromancer there is zero reason to not be running the set of Probes as well.

TBH it looks pretty solid, and if I was interested in playing a different color scheme than Jund with Pyromancer I'd be all for sleeving this up and getting some test results for you.

[YamiJoey]

I think in tempo decks, stalker >>> bob. Also, cabal works great with young pyro and probe. But if you cut cabal for hymm, you can cut the probes as well for other cards. That's how I would approach the build.

Hymn is bad in tempo. You don't need the card advantage, you need to hit their key Spells. Hitting Lands is fine, but I want to hold Stifle and Pierce up more than I want to cast a Sorcery. Thoughtseize lets me do both.

Also; Probe is too good with Pyroman, and you're cutting it for Lands. I think I'd have to add more lands to the above deck, as I don't want my hand to be Land/Waste/Pyroman and have to Muligan. Getting a Volc seems bad with 'Stalker. I really want to go Sea into Badlands, if anything. (Also, I'm not too up on the names of my duals. I mean the Rakdos one, obviously.)

EDIT: Also, this is the first time I've had access to both REB and BEB. Do we want both, or just REB? I can't think of anything Res I'm bothered about, unless the new Chandra is a lot better than I thought.

[SirTylerGalt]

Well I'm here with this:

(LEG) Grixis Delver

Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands


I'd play more Cabal Therapy and less Thoughtseize. Cabal synergizes better with Young Pyromancer :)

What are the 2 missing creatures?

[YamiJoey]

I'd play more Cabal Therapy and less Thoughtseize. Cabal synergizes better with Young Pyromancer :)

What are the 2 missing creatures?

I don't think I'll ever play more Therapies than 'Seizes in this kind of deck. I like the synergy, but not that much. If you don't have the Pyroman it is often a really bad card. I would consider it in Dega, or even four colours, where I could use Lingering Souls, Elspeth, and/or Sorin for backup, or in Green for Garruk, but when I don't have Pyroman I would just prefer a 'Seize, and making a 1/1 with it when I do it still great.

Also I'll have to find out what those two slots were. They weren't Creatures, but I cut some Spells when I read that I had 12. Probably Seize, Therapy, or Probe.

[L0cke]

I don't think I'll ever play more Therapies than 'Seizes in this kind of deck. I like the synergy, but not that much. If you don't have the Pyroman it is often a really bad card.

I have to disagree with you on Therapy being bad pretty much any time except when your opponent has no cards in hand. At its worst its a look at the opponent's hand, and making sure that they don't have the card you fear most at the time. Also, even if you don't have Pyromancer in play, the therapy just sits there in the 'yard waiting for when you need another look at their hand or to get rid of some other threat. Most of the time Therapy is just straight up better than Thoughtseize, and even if you are bad at Therapying blind, in your list you have Probe and some number of Thoughtseize to help you out with what to name.

[alphastryk]

I'm curious why a lot of people keep saying Confidant isn't a tempo card? Tombstalker is basically uncastable if you want to play wastelands, and I'm not convinced you need another 'big man' outside of Young Pyromancer.

Updated list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Forked Bolt
2 Perish
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Meltdown
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfur Elemental

[blindspotxxx]

Here's my take on the Grixis Shell:

4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scaldng Tarn

[SirTylerGalt]

I like Thought Scour in a Grixis tempo shell. You can use it to feed Tombstalker, Grim Lavamancer, and/or Snapcaster Mage.

It also combos with discard: you can use it to remove your opponent's two best cards, when (s)he hides them with brainstorm in response to your discard, like AJ Sacher did in his BUG deck a few months ago ( http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51438 ).

It also gives a lot more velocity, and helps you chain cantrips to create tons of elemental tokens. For example, with a Young Pyromancer in play, you can cast Brainstorm followed by Thought Scour at the end of your opponent's turn to add two 1/1 Elemental tokens at instant speed, giving you 2 more power to attack immediately.

It can also put Cabal Therapy in your graveyard for value :)


I think we should ask the same question BUG Tempo players asked themselves: do we want to play a "tap-out" deck that plays lots of discard, taps out for Bob / Young Pyromancer / Tombstalker, etc... Or do we want to play a deck that leaves mana open for counterspells / Stifle. The Team America players seem to have chosen the tapout style, prefering Tombstalker / Hymn to Tourach to Spell Pierce / Stifle, and playing Sinkhole in the SB. For Grixis Tempo, the choice is not as clear cut :)

I think I prefer to be proactive and strip my opponent's hand with Cabal Therapy + Young Pyromancer tricks... In this case, stifling their mana development seems less useful: you don't really care if they have mana, when their hand is empty... RUG Delver creates virtual card advantage when stifling mana resources, since their opponent has a lot of higher costed cards stranded in their hand... But you don't create any virtual CA if their hand is empty...

I'm also thinking about enchantment removal. I want to be able to remove a Leyline of Sanctity post-board against Show&Tell decks. I guess we can add 1 Tropical Island for a small green splash (especially good in Deathrite Shaman builds, where the green mana lets you remove creature cards and gain life against GY decks / burn). But I'm not sure what enchantment removal is most adapted. Krosan Grip is good against counterbalance, but it costs a lot... And it might be too late if your plan is to Krosan Grip on turn 3 and make them discard on turn 4 against S&T... Nature's claim is cheap, but cannot remove a Chalice at 1.

[Zupponn]

I think that more burn would be welcome in a deck like this. Chain Lightning would be a great inclusion, while cards like Lava Dart and Forked Bolt (which I saw in the OP) would be great creature killers.

[alphastryk]

Just a few comments:

if you're using our manabase (ported from thresh), Tombstalker is uncastable as BB is not a thing you realistically produce.

Snapcaster was in our initial lists but was surprisingly unimpressive, as you are not short on bodies or things to do.

Dark Confidant is infinite gas and makes sure you always have things to do. Having only must-answer men makes you very hard to profitably interact with.

I expected Probe to be cute and it would get trimmed / cut, but it has been just insanely good so far in testing. I would never want to cut below 3.

I certainly never felt like we needed more reach / burn, as Pyromancer produces a huge amount of damage in most situations.

[Expert Occultist]

I've been a big fan of Dark Confidant in tempo builds for awhile now but the best place to use him seemed to be in Team America where 2 cost cards hurt a lot. I'm glad Grixis finally got some muscle thanks to Young Pyromancer!

Greasefire!

x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Young Pyromancer
x4 Delver of Secrets

x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
x4 Gitaxian Probe
x4 Force of Will
x4 Daze
x4 Lightning Bolt
x3 Cabal Therapy
x2 Thoughtseize

x4 Polluted Delta
x4 Scalding Tarn
x4 Wasteland
x3 Underground Sea
x2 Volcanic Island
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x1 Badlands

The sideboard is still a work in progress but Pyroblast and Perish seem great. And yes, Gitaxian Probe is awesome!

[Amazing Larry]

I've been testing this deck myself with my buddy and have come up with this list so far.

12 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

30 Instants/Sorceries
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt

18 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

SB (Work in progress)
3 Thoughtseize
2 REB
2 Shattering Spree
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disfigure

The Shattering Sprees may be too cute, but I've wanted to try them with Pyromancer. Smash to Smithereens is probably a better choice here. Might try more burn or Dismembers/Disfigures in the board as well. It's still early testing, but so far I think the Pyromancer is legit. I wonder about using a Dark Triumph or two somewhere in the 75, probably just win more(and plays not so nice with Bob) but may be worth a shot. I'm still not sure what's better in this build; the Stifles or some extra Probes and Discard. I really love Stifle though...

[alphastryk]

I think Badlands is unneeded, and I'm hesitant to run one in a deck with 4 Dazes.

Also, Shattering Spree doesn't work the way you want - the copies are placed on the stack, not cast. This allows the copy to kill Chalice@1, but it won't trigger Young Pyromanacer, so it is not worth costing multiple R in my opinion.

[Amazing Larry]

Yeah, I missed the wording on Shattering Spree, and it is probably better to run Volcanic instead of Badlands. Any thoughts on Dark Triumph? I've played about 5 games with it in and its really not that hard to set up effectively, but it may be better off in the sideboard (or not in the deck at all?). I'm still not quite sure about it.

[Amazing Larry]

Been testing a bit more and currently have come to this build. Pyroman is good, and really plays well with Bob as Bob just draws more gas for Pyroman, but DRS is just too good not to play if you have black. I find that he really does everything we want Pyromancer to do (damage) plus a hell of a lot more. That 1cmc + mana accel, + shocks is just too good to pass up. You lose chump blockers, but I really don't want to stall the board. Maybe Pyromancer can fit in instead of Bob, I think that will be the next thing I try.

4 Delver
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce

18 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
8 Blue Fetches
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Submerge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Winter Orb

[YamiJoey]

DRS + Pyroman = Decktype

// Creatures: 10
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker

// Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

// Lands: 20
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

This is what I've been testing, and it seems sweet. It looks kind of unlikely I'll be able to take it to this weekend's tournament, which is a shame, but currently I'm struggling against Wasteland, and a lack of Stifle. I'm very tempted to cut Lightning Bolt, but I have stolen enough games to understand why that may seem like a bad idea, and when the Wastes catch up on the later turns after I've managed to power through it, they do become my main method of just closing the game out. However, Stifles would not only protect against Wastelands and provide the mana denial that may be intrinsic to the Legacy Tempo strategy, but they also just mess up various Deatrite Shamans and Delvers, alongside hitting Jace, and even the odd Chrome Mox here and there, and also having an additional hate card for Storm is nice.

[Vandalize]

I've found this deck to be really fun to play with, as I saw a lot of potential in Young Pyromancer. But this deck has one MAJOR issue. As a tempo deck (and in the Legacy format), this deck tends to empty its hand in the first few turns of the game, leaving us to topdeck mode. As a pseudo-combo, Young Pyromancer requires you to play lots of spells, and if you're in topdeck mode, this is just not enough. Making one 1/1 token per turn after a Pernicious Deed or Terminus isn't enough.

The only advantage I see in Grixis over RUG Delver is the discard options, as Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are really strong options. But lacking a resilient threat (Goose) and a thug (Goyf) really hurts this deck if your early disruption isn't matched with the right clock.

[YamiJoey]

I've found this deck to be really fun to play with, as I saw a lot of potential in Young Pyromancer. But this deck has one MAJOR issue. As a tempo deck (and in the Legacy format), this deck tends to empty its hand in the first few turns of the game, leaving us to topdeck mode. As a pseudo-combo, Young Pyromancer requires you to play lots of spells, and if you're in topdeck mode, this is just not enough. Making one 1/1 token per turn after a Pernicious Deed or Terminus isn't enough.

The only advantage I see in Grixis over RUG Delver is the discard options, as Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are really strong options. But lacking a resilient threat (Goose) and a thug (Goyf) really hurts this deck if your early disruption isn't matched with the right clock.

Whilst I'll agree with the lack of a Mongoose replacement, I feel that Tombstalker is a much better threat than Goyf onve they both land. We can rush our Stalker onto the table quite easily if we have to, so we aren't evn just going to get outraced, and when it drops we can shrink the Goyf simply by casting our 'Stalker. I would like to be playing something with Shroud, but I'm not too bothered, as I'm just going to make a load of 1/1's and ask you to deal with them. You're also not emptying your hand that much to do it, either. You're casting cantrips to find discard or removal, and then castingbthat with some value attached.

I am currently looking into Thought Scour somewhere. I want to screw with people's Brainstorms and Tops.

[shrewarmies]

I managed to make 9th place with the following list in a 60 man tournament here in Australia. I only missed top 8 because my opponent nor I were comfortable doing the ID math in the last round which would have secured me a top 8 place had we ID'd. We played out our match and I lost in 3. I missed out on top 8 by 0.9%.

9) Joshul
a Butler – Grixis Delver
Lands (18)
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Creatures (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
Sorceries (9)
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy

Instants (23)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

Sideboard (15)
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger’s Cage

The deck was misbuilt. You definately want to replace the third sea with the third volc. If I were to play it again I would find room for another burn spell like chain. I felt on the day that I had too many lands but that could just be variance. I do not play legacy very often but I felt that the deck was quite strong. If you woud like a report I can write one up. I just thought I would leave an example of a sucessful list in this thread.

[beez]

This has been my take on the Grixis tempo. Without Brainstorms and Ponders I find Delver loses some effectiveness, and I have gone for an almost combo-y approach that tries to explode for an early win. I realize Dark Confidant is probably a better play than the Flame Kin Harbinger but I like being able to tutor a NivMagus and go off turn 1-3. Confidant would be safer, but this deck is BLAZING Fast and explosive. Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy is nearly broken. I used to run Death's Shadow to mop up if necessary, but no room for him after YP printing. I haven't had time to play it in a super competitive environment yet beyond casual legacy,but it has been great so far. If anyone wants to test it themselves and give suggestions that would be cool.

Grixis NivMagus



4x NivMagus Elemental
3x Flame Kin Harbinger
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Kiln Fiend

4x Flusterstorm
4x Daze
2x Snuff Out
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Ground Rift
4x Gut Shot
4x Gitixian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Force of Will
2x Clout of the Dominus

4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Arid Mesa
4x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Mountain


Side
2x Force of Will
2x Clout of the Dominus
1x Snuff Out
3x Spell Pierce
1x Pact of Negation
2x Ground Rift
4x Surgical Extraction

[Qweerios]

I have been playing Grixis tempo since before the printing of Pyromancer and I've concluded that Pyromancer and Therapy were not very good in this deck despite all my efforts to see their success. Yes Pyromancer gives a lot of card advantage, but those are all very crappy cards. Three 1/1s won't get you very far against a 1/2. I mean, even a DRS or a Stoneforge will stall your board and you won't be able to swing profitably with neither pyro nor the tokens. Cabal Therapy is simply not very strong in a tempo strategy. It has a combo interaction with Pyromancer, and it's not a great one at that either.

I have stated this before in this thread and I will reiterate: what makes Grixis Tempo good compared to RUG and BUG variants is the fact that it has the hardest disruption and the most reach. Unlike other tempo decks, Grixis assumes more control over the board and wins through smaller threats.

Here's my list:


Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Fire // Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Dimir Charm
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[mdb1005]

Went 4-1 tonight playing in my weekly legacy event. Quick tournament report:

Lost first round to Death and Taxes. He had all 4 StP game one and had a guy on every vial activation game 2.

Won round 2 against High Tide. Lost game one. Won game two getting a quick clock off of pyro and pithing needling candelabra. Won game three after he surgical'd, saw my hand of 2 flusterstorm, pyro, and stifle

Won round 3 against BUG Landstill. Won game 1 just punching with a pyromancer and confidant. I had two pyromancers going and 6 tokens but he had Tabernacle and I didn't have the wasteland. Lost game 2 after I tore his hand apart with cabal therapy but didn't have any threats. He recovered better and beat me down with factories. Game 3 I was able to find pyromancer, confidant, and a pithing needle to name pernicious deed.

Round 4 my friend conceded to me since I had a better chance in the top 8 than him since he was playing Death and Taxes and we had a few combo players making it in and we split prize every week.

Round 5 (Top 8) played against OmniHalls. Won game one dazing cantrips and beating him down with pyromancer and tokens. Game two he mulled to six and I was able to answer everything accordingly while having the pyromancer out.

Overall the decks really strong. I used Drew Levin's 60 main and meta'd my sideboard for my local store.

Sideboard was:
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
1 JtMS
2 Pyroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Pithing Needle (these things were amazing all night)
4 Cabal Therapy

[phazonmutant]

Went 4-1 tonight playing in my weekly legacy event. Quick tournament report:

Nice, thanks for the report!

I took this to a local yesterday as well. Went 3-1, good for a top 4 split and $30 or so.

Alphastryk took the deck last week and went like 2-2 or something, so I made some changes that he suggested after we read Levin's article.

// Creatures - 15
4 Delver
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer

// Spells - 27
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Stifle
4 Lightning bolt
2 Dismember

// Land - 18
9 fetch
3 Volcanic
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

// Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Electrickery
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Meltdown

Alphastryk specifically mentioned wanting more colored sources, and Levin's 17 land list seemed a little greedy given how mana-hungry this deck is, even with the Turbo Xerox math of 4 Gitaxian Probe = 1 land. So I just went with 61 cards to give another pseudo half a land. Alphastryk and I agreed that Stifle doesn't seem at its best in this deck because it has more 2-drop threats, wants to tap out with Pyromancer in play, and doesn't even run the set of mana-denial. It's not focused. The split of interactive cards worked out well, each was useful and it kept the opponent guessing.

I wanted to try out Meltdown against all the Chalice decks in our meta. The second Smash would have been better in every instance. I think playing without grave hate is suicidal in legacy - there's enough graveyard-value decks like Loam in addition to its uses against Reanimator, Dredge, and ANT. Levin's list had Jace and Bonfire, both of which seem awful. Jace has been tried in BUG Delver and it just wasn't good even with the acceleration from Deathrite. Bonfire is a worse Electrickery - come on, like you're really getting to 5 mana? Electrickery was very good every time I drew it, but sadly didn't draw Darkblast.

Rd 1 - Hoogland Loam
G1 - He killed my first couple creatures while I played out Wastelands, then Knight raced my Delver.
G2 - I managed to manascrew the 25 land deck by blowing up a Mox Diamond, countering a Loam, and Wasting him off 2 lands until Delver got there.
G3 - I kept a controlling hand without a threat, something that if I played more Thresh I would have realized was a mistake. He got 5 lands in play and then winning was only a matter of time for him.
Surgical was marginal. I wasn't able to use it on Loam because he always left up a cycling land. Extirpate or Nihil Spellbomb would have been better. This seems like a tough matchup.

Rd 2 - Death and Taxes
G1 - I stupidly didn't Force a Jitte with Thalia in play to my Delver, Bob, Insectile Aberration. Almost won the race despite that thanks to a top-decked Stifle on the Jitte's damage trigger, but bricked on Bolt.
G2 - Lavamancer was looking good, then Rest in Peace came down. Delver beat down while I killed or countered every man he played.
G3 - We both kept 1-landers. He got down a Mom, Plowed my Delver, and Wasted my land, so I thought I was cooked when I had to cleanup like 3 times. I ended up drawing out of the manascrew first and Bob kept the gas flowing while he couldn't deploy his 3-drops in time. He did make a greedy attack with a Mom equipped with Jitte and Sword of Light and Shadow into open mana that probably lost him the game when I Bolted her.

Rd 3 - Turbo Eldrazi
G1 - He drew a lot of lands and I made a lot of Elementals.
G2 - Things were looking good when I Therapied 2 Tops and an Ulamog. Then Eye of Ugin found Emrakul before I could kill him.
G3 - He drew a lot of lands, then Daze countered an Oblivion Stone with 4 mana open. I got there.

Quarters - Goblins
G1 - Lavamancer did a lot of work, although he killed both. Pyromancer took over the game, making his attacks miserable.
G2 - I Smashed his first Aether Vial, Wasted him every time he drew a second land, and tempo'd him out with Pyromancer. One sweet turn went like: play second Pyromancer, Probe, Daze in response, Waste your land.

I have to say, Pyromancer is nuts. I like that every threat is a must-kill (except maybe Lavamancer). Lavamancer is really mana-hungry - I had like 5 turns over the course of the night where I couldn't activate him because it was more important to find a counterspell or progress the board.

[TinkerRobot]

I've been testing this list with some buddies, however haven't been able to make it to a tournament yet. I like the combination of Pyromancer, Git Probe, and Cabal Therapy. One of the most exciting things (for the current metagame) has been playing Reanimate in a tempo shell. Being able to Thoughtseize or Bolt away their creature and Reanimate it is pretty sweet. With decks like Sneak and Show and Reanimator running around I've already been lucky enough to snag my opponent's Griselbrand. Also (and this is the pinnacle of greed in a Daze/Wasteland deck, I might add) playing Young Pyromancer with Punishing Fire has been insane for me. The only cards I'm sure I want in the sideboard are Red and Blue Blasts.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Fire / Ice
2 Ponder

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Submerge
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Rise / Fall
1 Perish
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt

[rockout]

Is anyone in this thread the guy who plays this on mtgo? I swear I watched a ton of games one night that a guy was playing this list. It looked pretty sweet.

[BRF]

Hi everybody , this is my first post. Last friday I played a local tournament, I went 5-0 and i won a Tundra. I´m very happy with this deck. I didnt take a note so i put the pairings :

1º Grixis ( with pyromancer) 2-1

2º Maverick with punisinhg 2-1

3º RUG with Standstill 1-0

4º Canadian 2-1

5º BUG with Standstill 2-1

I Played with Green for the Abrupt Decay.

My current list :

4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 B. Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands

Side
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Force of Will
1 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgary Charm



regards and sorry for my english.

[phazonmutant]

Levin's update at the end of his video article had some solid suggestions. I'm trying out a Badlands as the 61st card (replacing a fetch in my previous list) and cutting a Lavamancer for Tombstalker. So far I haven't been double fireblasted by Bob and he's been an incredible threat to draw into late-game several times. Bob always dies on sight anyway. :tongue:
A couple Tombstalkers in the board replaced the Perishes, he made a reasonable case that you would actually just prefer a threat in the matchups where Perish would be doing work. I'm loving Electrickery as a 1-of, 2 might be correct in the appropriate meta.

Pyromancer is the real deal. He either is killed or wins the game in 2-3 turns. So far I've won every match against fair decks on the back of Pyromancer and won against unfair decks with the general tempo plan.

[metronome2charisma]

fire covenant is a house. i cant think playing anything less than two is correct in almost any meta . its like casting a dismember that wraths the whole team and not just one...

[eriktyvollk]

I have been watching this deck develop and thought I would give it a go at a small 4 round local tournament this weekend.
The list
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
4 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
2 Tombstalker
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental

2-1 Elves
2-0 Allies
1-2 Jund
2-0 Esper Deathblade

Notes of Impportance
Elves was a suprisingly easy matchup, you have so much control over what they are doing and Cabal Therapy just destroys them.
Jund is ROUGH... I lost game three with my opponent at 2 life I boarded in Tombstalker and raced then got choked while tapped out with bolts in hand.
Happy with the deck Engineered Explosives were really bad and never was young pyromancer a standout. I feel like it is inferior to Rug...but has potential.

[thefreakaccident]

Why no flusterstorm? Seems potentially sick, any low mana storm cards seem pretty good with the young guy.

[SirTylerGalt]

Why no flusterstorm? Seems potentially sick, any low mana storm cards seem pretty good with the young guy.

You only get one token when you cast a Storm spell, since the Storm copies are "put on the stack", not "cast".

Flusterstorm works with Nivmagus Elemental, though.

[alphastryk]

so, this is promising: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58807

Thoughts?

[Esper3k]

He won it against Imperial Painter too!

I took this deck out for a spin at our local Legacy tournament this weekend. Had a blast with it and I'll put up a short tournament report in the morning.

[phazonmutant]

Wow, I'm sad I missed the coverage. Awesome that Grixis Tempo won! Independently of the SCG Open, I decided to play Grixis at my first local in the Seattle/Tacoma area. Ended 4-0'ing a 13 man event to win this little number:
http://i.imgur.com/h1fYpSsl.jpg (http://imgur.com/h1fYpSs)

// 15 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
2 Grim Lavamancer

// 28 Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Stifle

// 18 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Wasteland

// Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Electrickery
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Perish
2 Flusterstorm

I liked Levin's suggestion of adding Tombstalker to have a threat that lives through PFire, Engineered Plague, Abrupt Decay, etc, but thought that putting it in the board is stupid. The deck felt a little color-source-light with only 14 color producing lands, so the 61st card is the Badlands to help support the Tombstalkers. His suggestion of 3 Stifles "because they're interactive" in a deck that's not maxing out on Wasteland isn't internally consistent, so I chose a split of interactive cards to keep my opponents guessing. I cut a Bob mostly because I only own 3, but partly because I moved another Tombstalker main. I don't understand how people like Eric Rill can win without grave hate. It's like playing Russian Roulette. You can't even beat Loam decks without Surgical. 3 Extirpate effects might be too many though. All the other cards were versatile and valuable.

So on to the report.
Round 1 - Affinity with Tempered Steel, and Glimpse of Nature, and Lotus Petal. His deck actually just didn't function.
G1 I stabilized at 2 on the back of Lavamancer and some timely removal spells. My demon dragon won the game.
-2 Daze, -1 Force of Will, +2 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Electrickery
G2 He was having mana troubles for a while, which allowed me to kill all his men to death while Bob and later Pyromancer beat down.
1-0

Round 2 - Death & Taxes. The guy was early in learning the deck, props to him for picking up an interesting and difficult deck to master.
Game 1 - He dropped a couple Moms in play and I beat with Delver a bit. Then my Probe revealed a hand of Flickerwisp, Mangara, and Revoker (with Karakas on board and Vial at 3). Awkward. We had a little standoff where he wouldn't activate Vial because then I would Waste his Karakas (and 2nd land), but I couldn't attack with Delver or Waste because he would Vial in Flickerwisp. This gave me the time to drop a couple Pyromancers and swarm the board.
-3 Force of Will, -1 Spell Snare, -2 Daze, +1 Electrickery, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +2 Smash to Smithereens, +2 Cabal Therapy
Game 2 - I kept a hand with no blue source for my Ponder, but I did have a Bob, Badlands, Wasteland, Therapy x2, and Probe. He dropped a Vial and passed. Probe revealed a pretty stacked hand of Sword of Light and Shadow, Flickerwisp x2, SFM, Mirran Crusader, so I just did the value play and took the Flickerwisps. He dropped Stoneforge and got Jitte - uh oh! That card is the death of this deck. I had drawn Delta and Delver, so I Therapied Jitte and dropped Delver. I dropped Bob, he passed with Vial on 3, I played Pyromancer and Wasted his 2nd land. Fortunately he didn't hit a land to force me to chump Crusader, so Pyromancer was able to create dudes to take over the game and strip his hand with the Therapies in the graveyard.
Having Smash to Smithereens as an out to equipment felt great. He didn't rip the land, but if he had I still could have beat the Sword of Light and Shadow. Electrickery is usually pretty good against this deck but wouldn't have been this match.
2-0

Round 3 - BG Rock
Game 1 - I kept a questionable seven - Force, Daze, Bolt, Bolt, Dismember, and 2 lands. Would you keep that hand? He led Thoughtseize into Sylvan Library and I thought I was doomed when I continued to draw reactive cards. Probe revealed Gatekeeper of Malakir, Dark Confidant, Vampire Nighthawk, and Deathrite Shaman, and I thought I was doomed. Somehow though, I managed to beat down while bolting his Nighthawks and whatnot, then Pyromancer made chumps for days. Managed to scrape a win.
-3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Electrickery, +2 Surgical Extraction. I suspected Loam shenanigans.
Game 2 - I'm fairly certain I lost this. Don't remember it at all. Boarded in the Daze for a Gitaxian Probe based on how good it was I think.
Game 3 - I played Delver into Bob, he killed Delver then Wasted my Volcanic. I Brainstormed and whiffed on fetches. I did it again, whiffed. Fortunately he was having mana issues also while trying to play around Daze (wisely). Eventually I found more lands and Pyromancer was able to make a bunch of dudes, then win.
3-0

Round 4 - UWr Miracles
Game 1 - He mulliganned, then aggressively fetched duals (in my opinion). I was able to Waste him a couple times so he had to spend his turns Topping for mana instead of answers to my Pyromancer and Bob army.
-2 Daze, -2 Dismember, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Flusterstorm. Miracles plays off the top very well, so I don't want Therapy. Daze is usually pretty miserable against them (although it was good in the previous game). Force is good because it's really not a grindy matchup, it's a swingy matchup. You need hard counters for their bombs.
Game 2 - I played a turn 1 Delver knowing that he had REB, REB, Clasm in hand and a Volcanic in play. He waited to REB the Delver until my turn when I was able to Pierce the REB, then I wasted his (apparently only) Volcanic. However, he resolved Top and Counterbalance through my Daze, then my REB was never able to nug the Counterbalance. Delver brought him to 3, but then he plowed Delver and eventually won. I know I could have sequenced my attempts to kill Counterbalance differently given that I had Grim Lavamancer, Snare, Bolt, and REB in hand when he resolved Counterbalance, but I'm not sure what the correct line was.
-1 Lightning Bolt, +1 Daze. Daze is better on the play and I didn't see any of the creatures he might potentially have.
Game 3 - He mulliganned to 5, then fetched duals. I Wasted them and he lost. Maybe he had to fetch them, but it really wasn't close and my clock was 2 Lavamancers for a long time.
4-0

Moving forward, I think I want my sideboard to be -1 Lavamancer, -1 Extirpate, +2 Baleful Strix. It should be good in the Tarmogoyf matchups and Rill did pretty ok with them. Lavamancer was a nonbo with Tombstalker once or twice, so the third Lavamancer should instead be some other form of creature removal. If I expected lots of Death and Taxes, Virtue's Ruin would be a consideration. The Tombstalkers were able to close out a game quickly and people were forced to answer them immediately, so I think it's reasonable to have them maindeck.

[phazonmutant]

Played at CardKingdom's Labor Day duel for duals tournament. Went 5-1 to get second place, winning a Tundra. List is same as above, but cut the sideboard Extirpate and Grim Lavamancer for a Jitte and an Envelop. Lavamancer had some disynergy with Tombstalker, so I wanted to replace it with something for the D&T / Elves / Goblins matchup. Envelop is good against most combo decks and is also good against Miracles so I thought it was a reasonable inclusion.

Quick report since I'm tired:
Round 1 - UR Burn
Game 1 he mulliganned to 4 and scooped to my Delver into Probe. Game 2 he flooded out a bit. Delver ate most of his life total before he resolved a kill spell, then Lavamancer finished him off.
1-0

Round 2 - Traditional Reanimator
Game 1 he crushed me. I managed to kill a Griselbrand, but it was too late. Games 2 and 3 I brought in 9 cards. The interaction between Surgical, Pyromancer, and Cabal Therapy is cute. It didn't feel especially close.
This is the boarding I'm least sure about - I cut both Lavamancers and both Tombstalkers as well as all the Bolts and Dismembers for all the relevant cards. I think that I'm only going to win the game if I assume the control, and a late-game dragon that has the potential to double-fireblast me is worse than Pyromancer.
2-0

Round 3 - Big Zoo (lordofthepit's friend, "Batman")
Game 1 he led on Nacatl, I led on Bolt. He played a Hierarch without playing a land first, so I Dazed the Hierarch and Wasted his Taiga. He didn't draw lands soon enough. Game 2 he again led on Nacatl and Plowed my Delver, but he was on all lands in hand so I was able to win easily.
3-0

Round 4 - Big Zoo (lordofthepit)
This match was really tense. Game 1 I was behind from Dazing some stuff and he killed all my threats. I had to Force a huge Knight, which allowed Elspeth to resolve and win. Game 2 looked like he was going to win very easily when he had PFire online and I had nary a Surgical in sight. Random beats took me into the single digits, then Perish did some work. Goyf + PFire looked like it was going to be a huge problem, and my out was Pyromancer into Probe and hope to draw Tombstalker or Surgical. I hit Tombstalker which picked up a Jitte and won the game. Very very close. Game 3 he had to plow a Pyromancer before it took over the game, which allowed me to Surgical the other StP in his hand and ride a Tombstalker to victory.
4-0

Round 5 - Reanimator (Chase - I don't remember his source username, but I played him before at GP Denver)
Game 1 I mulliganed to a hand that had a Delver and Daze as protection. Unsurprisingly, he was able to play through that. Game 2 I felt pretty ok keeping a hand with several cantrips and a Daze, but he was able to play through REB, Stifle, and Flusterstorm by picking his spots when I was mana-constrained.
4-1

Round 6 - Canadian Thresh
Game 1 he's on the play and keeps me off lands well enough that my Pyromancers can't come online before his Delver and Tarmogoyf beat down. Game 2 looked like it was going overwhelmingly in his favor when he Roughed away a Lavamancer, Pyromancer, and Delver (I made a mistake by overcommitting) with Mongoose in play, but I played Tombstalker on back to back turns. His deck has trouble beating that. Game 3 we did a little dance Dazing and Bolting each other's Delvers, then I was able to get a Tombstalker down while at a healthy life total and with only Mongoose on his side. Yup, won that one. Very close, interesting games.
5-1

Chase won the tournament, winning an Underground Sea. Congrats!

I really, really feel that Tombstalker is the tits. He's an awesome out to have against Punishing Fire and Thresh. I might try Rill's quad Stifle list, but I have trouble believing that Grixis is a better Stifle deck than Thresh. I'm least sold on the Jitte - for example against Zoo he had Qasali Pridemage and also killed all my men so it was not a good card to bring in. Its power level is pretty high though. I feel like my list is pretty solid though. I don't really miss the 4th Bob - the awkward double Bob hands happen less frequently.

[lordofthepit]

Played at CardKingdom's Labor Day duel for duals tournament. Went 5-1 to get second place, winning a Tundra. List is same as above, but cut the sideboard Extirpate and Grim Lavamancer for a Jitte and an Envelop.

Thanks a lot. I appreciate you not posting this information until after I scout you with old intel. :tongue:

[Lemnear]

Tombstalker is fine unless you play against DRS, Scanvenging Ooze or Jace ... Oh wait!

[lordofthepit]

Tombstalker is fine unless you play against DRS, Scanvenging Ooze or Jace ... Oh wait!

Deathrite Shaman is absolutely embarrassing against Tombstalker.

[catmint]

that you can play stalker with shaman in the format and even in the same deck has been proven by bug tempo. I think for grixis the bug template with deathrite is a better place to start than the rug shell (who cares about gaining life). Lists without the appropriate toughness in creatures wont survive if people figure out to play golgari charm, zealous persecution and punishing fire hence tomstalker over confidant like in any tempo shell.

[Esper3k]

I am a fan of the Tombstalker lists as well since the deck can't beat something that sweeps X/1's without it. If you're playing the deck as a tempo list, not having a big finisher just doesn't seem correct. The way I see the creatures in this deck compared to RUG Delver is that Young Pyromancer fills a similar role to Nimble Mongoose (it provides you with an attacker that requires a sweeper to take care of) and Tombstalker fills the Tarmogoyf role.

[alphastryk]

...
Round 3 - BG Rock
Game 1 - I kept a questionable seven - Force, Daze, Bolt, Bolt, Dismember, and 2 lands. Would you keep that hand? He led Thoughtseize into Sylvan Library and I thought I was doomed when I continued to draw reactive cards. Probe revealed Gatekeeper of Malakir, Dark Confidant, Vampire Nighthawk, and Deathrite Shaman, and I thought I was doomed. Somehow though, I managed to beat down while bolting his Nighthawks and whatnot, then Pyromancer made chumps for days. Managed to scrape a win....

I don't think keeping that hand is possibly right.

Congrats on your successes.

[phazonmutant]

that you can play stalker with shaman in the format and even in the same deck has been proven by bug tempo. I think for grixis the bug template with deathrite is a better place to start than the rug shell (who cares about gaining life). Lists without the appropriate toughness in creatures wont survive if people figure out to play golgari charm, zealous persecution and punishing fire hence tomstalker over confidant like in any tempo shell.

Agreed that Tombstalker is a house, and definitely castable. He has some disynergy with Lavamancer and pressure on the graveyard can delay him, but it's not like we don't play removal. Deathrite Shaman is a powerful card, definitely worth testing. I think that the RUG shell is better though for a few reasons: a) Pyromancer wants you to play 3-4 Gitaxian Probe, which is redundant in a list with lots of discard, b) you really want to lead discard into your threat, but Pyromancer encourages playing him out and waiting to counter your opponent's removal, and c) Bob is better with Pyromancer because you don't really need mana, you need spells. That's just spitballing though. If I were to take a list to a tournament tomorrow, here's what I would try:

// 14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker

// 30 Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay

// 18 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

And make up a sideboard.



I am a fan of the Tombstalker lists as well since the deck can't beat something that sweeps X/1's without it. If you're playing the deck as a tempo list, not having a big finisher just doesn't seem correct. The way I see the creatures in this deck compared to RUG Delver is that Young Pyromancer fills a similar role to Nimble Mongoose (it provides you with an attacker that requires a sweeper to take care of) and Tombstalker fills the Tarmogoyf role.

I really don't think that Thresh's and Grixis's men are comparable. Pyromancer isn't similar to Mongoose at all since he's a 2-3 drop that can be killed and you can't drop Tombstalker on turn 2. They have different strengths, like both being houses on defense and being able to attack through board stalls.
Also, you'd be surprised at how well the deck plays as a board-control deck. It can definitely have tempo draws, but if I wanted to be pure tempo I'd play all the Stifles and Wastelands, then just play Thresh.



I don't think keeping that hand is possibly right.

Congrats on your successes.

You're right, that was just bad. Thanks!

[L0cke]

If I were to take a list to a tournament tomorrow, here's what I would try:

// 14 Creatures
// 30 Spells
// 18 Lands



Do you really think 62 cards is the right number for a deck with so few lands? Or are you just continuing your trend of being bad at math? :tongue:

[phazonmutant]

Do you really think 62 cards is the right number for a deck with so few lands? Or are you just continuing your trend of being bad at math? :tongue:

Wow that's embarrassing. I even put the category counts. Yeah, just cut a spell or two. I dunno, a Probe or something.

[L0cke]

Wow that's embarrassing. I even put the category counts. Yeah, just cut a spell or two. I dunno, a Probe or something.

I'm probably gonna play something like it tonight at the store. I think I'm going to cut a Decay and a Hymn, because I don't have optimal fetches to run the Bayou, so I'm playing a third Sea.

[twndomn]

Instead of Cabal Therapy, has anyone considered Opposition?

[lordofthepit]

Instead of Cabal Therapy, has anyone considered Opposition?

IIRC, Drew Levin wrote about it in his latest SCG Premium article. It looked like a random 5-color pile with a horrific manabase.

[bartmanqc]

I was flipping through my rare junk cards today. Then, I came across Pyromancer's Ascension. Is there any chance this card could be good in a build like the one that won the last SCG. I know that Abrupt Decay is a card, but who knows...

[phazonmutant]

I was flipping through my rare junk cards today. Then, I came across Pyromancer's Ascension. Is there any chance this card could be good in a build like the one that won the last SCG. I know that Abrupt Decay is a card, but who knows...

Ascension is a slow, vulnerable, combo card that requires a deck built around it in a format where grave hate is omnipresent. And you want to put it in a creature deck? I'll let you guess what my thoughts on it are.


IIRC, Drew Levin wrote about it in his latest SCG Premium article. It looked like a random 5-color pile with a horrific manabase.

He had some interesting reasoning for his choices. I might play it at some point for funsies, but I agree it doesn't look very competitive. Also it's definitely a control card, not a tempo card.

[Quasim0ff]

I'm testing Eric Rill's deck (or something close to it).

I've cut a lavamancer for a spell snare (a whole lot of stoneforge in my meta), and it has been really good so far.

My sideboard is:
2x Electrickery (basicly for the mirror and d&t)
1x Dread of Night (we have about 4 lingering souls players here... I know, amazing. (Might be Virtues Ruin))
1x Perish
3x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Baleful Strix

Deck is:

4x Delver
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Bob

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Probe
4x Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Daze
3x force
2x Dismember
1x Spell Snare

3 sea
3 volc
8 blue fetch (4x tarn, 2 delta, 1 misty, 1 strand (these are the ones in foil ^^)
4 wasteland

Deck has been AMAZING so far. Dominated against all combo as well as fair white decks (d&t, deadguy ale, junk etc)
Lands is a nightmare for the deck however. Unless I find waste for tabernacle as well as extraction for loam, I can't win. (I need to get rid of chasm as well).

I think I will try to get some dedicated hate towards equipment in my sideboard. Thinking about cutting 1x flusterstorm as well as 1x submerge for 2x hate for 2x STS.
Counterbalance is a fine matchup.

[L0cke]

Played this last night at the weekly at Super , had 18ish players? Went 3-0-ID into top eight, though round one doesn't count because my opponent showed up late and got a match loss. Overall I was very happy with the deck, Beat Belcher 2-0 (Stifled his Belcher activation 3 times game one), and Mono-Red Sneak attack 2-1. Durdled about vs Junk and UWR Stoneblade while I was waiting, and basically every game I found a Young Pyromancer and could cast it I won. Every game I played the deck seemed really strong, except vs junk, where three wastelands, and three Vindicates removed all but one mana producing land in the deck by turn 7 and then steamrolled me with an infinitely huge Knight.

The card choices may be a little odd, however I really like where the deck is now. I never really liked drawing more than 1-2 Deathrite Shamans, so I cut to 3 and cut a spell to run 2 Bobs over what I was running a couple weeks ago. My favorite opening with this deck is to have a DRS on the play, untap, play a Young Pyromancer with Daze/Force/Stifle/Bolt in some combination and be able to cast non-free spells the turn you play him. Also the second green source (Taiga) was basically irrelevant, and it really should have been a Volcanic Island. Also, there are 61 card here, but I haven't found a card I want to cut yet, and it seems to be running well despite being slightly suboptimal.

The List

//18 Lands

3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//15 Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker

//28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze



//Sideboard:

2 Cabal Therapy
1 Extirpate
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Meltdown
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Dismember
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Force of Will



For the open this weekend in Atlanta I think I need to swap the Smash to Smithereens/and or Meltdown(there's a millon loam decks in the Super meta, and they all run chalice and mox damond, so its usually a 2 or 3 for 1) and one other card for a Pair of Submerge, but otherwise I think this what I will probably be playing there.

[phazonmutant]

Played this last night at the weekly at Super , had 18ish players? Went 3-0-ID into top eight, though round one doesn't count because my opponent showed up late and got a match loss. Overall I was very happy with the deck, Beat Belcher 2-0 (Stifled his Belcher activation 3 times game one), and Mono-Red Sneak attack 2-1. Durdled about vs Junk and UWR Stoneblade while I was waiting, and basically every game I found a Young Pyromancer and could cast it I won. Every game I played the deck seemed really strong, except vs junk, where three wastelands, and three Vindicates removed all but one mana producing land in the deck by turn 7 and then steamrolled me with an infinitely huge Knight.

The card choices may be a little odd, however I really like where the deck is now. I never really liked drawing more than 1-2 Deathrite Shamans, so I cut to 3 and cut a spell to run 2 Bobs over what I was running a couple weeks ago. My favorite opening with this deck is to have a DRS on the play, untap, play a Young Pyromancer with Daze/Force/Stifle/Bolt in some combination and be able to cast non-free spells the turn you play him. Also the second green source (Taiga) was basically irrelevant, and it really should have been a Volcanic Island. Also, there are 61 card here, but I haven't found a card I want to cut yet, and it seems to be running well despite being slightly suboptimal.

The List

//18 Lands

3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//15 Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker

//28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze



//Sideboard:

2 Cabal Therapy
1 Extirpate
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Meltdown
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Dismember
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Force of Will



For the open this weekend in Atlanta I think I need to swap the Smash to Smithereens/and or Meltdown(there's a millon loam decks in the Super meta, and they all run chalice and mox damond, so its usually a 2 or 3 for 1) and one other card for a Pair of Submerge, but otherwise I think this what I will probably be playing there.

Interesting list! Casting Tombstalker looks like it could be tough and it seems like you're light on removal, maybe consider shaving a Stifle? Thresh seems to be moving towards 3.

As far as the board goes, it looks pretty rough. I think you have way too much grave hate for an open - consider cutting to 2 Surgicals. The meltdown was pretty bad in my testing, but 2 shatter effects seems reasonable. I really think you want tthe 3rd Therapy and 2 REBs, and a couple of Fire Covenants if you can find room.

Good luck!

[nedleeds]

Strains and stresses over one of's and 3 or 2 of stuff.
Plays 61 cards.

I need a meme for this.

[Quasim0ff]

I don't like tombstalker at all.

it is primarely great against RUG/bug where it can't be answered by bolt/decay, and in both match ups you are favoured because of Young Pyromancer.

[L0cke]

Interesting list! Casting Tombstalker looks like it could be tough and it seems like you're light on removal, maybe consider shaving a Stifle? Thresh seems to be moving towards 3.

As far as the board goes, it looks pretty rough. I think you have way too much grave hate for an open - consider cutting to 2 Surgicals. The meltdown was pretty bad in my testing, but 2 shatter effects seems reasonable. I really think you want tthe 3rd Therapy and 2 REBs, and a couple of Fire Covenants if you can find room.

Good luck!

I found that in about 30ish games over the last week or so I have only not been able to cast Tombstalker (when I had enough cards in graveyard to delve it) twice, and once was vs Junk where I got Vindicated/wasted off of all black by turn 4, the other was this afternoon where I drew all my Volcanics and no fetches or Seas.

I think for the open I will be cutting the Meltdown, since its mainly for the million Chalice and affinity decks that show up at Super, and maybe the Extirpate as split second is basically irrelevant against most of the decks I will care about at the open. The Knight of the Reliquary decks also often feel difficult to beat as their men beat my men by way too much, so I definitely want submerge. Would you suggest dropping a flusterstorm and something for the REB's?

[Esper3k]

While Submerge is amazing and all, I've found Perish to be so much better. Killing Mongoose is key in the RUG matchup. Rough is also... rough especially in the non-Tombstalker lists.

[Quasim0ff]

Hi.

HOW THE FUCK DOES PEOPLE BEAT DEATH AND TAXES?

Regards,
Quas

[btm10]

I'm also on the fence about Tombstalker, mostly for the state mana reasons, but I wanted to touch on a related problem, which is the manabase in general. I'm running basics over Wasteland, because I want the option of playing around Wasteland and Blood Moon. If you're up against active Port + Waste, you've either already lost and should scoop, or you have an active mancer and enough countermagic/discard + probes and brainstorms to protect and activate it. I find myself fetching my basics first unless I'm in a position where I need a color now and have the wrong fetch (e.g., I need R to play YP and only have Sea Delta, but have protection to go now).

Several people have mentioned basics at various points in this thread, but the topic hasn't been addressed at any length, and I think we should at least be discussing it.

[L0cke]

Hi.

HOW THE FUCK DOES PEOPLE BEAT DEATH AND TAXES?

Regards,
Quas

Two things helped me a lot. First was countering their vials, if they have to play fair on mana you can land a couple early threats before they do, or they cant deploy anything and just tie up your mana. Second was Izzet Staticaster out of the board. That card is a beast, comes down in end step, shoot mom, untap shoot mom again clears up the ground for your guys quite a lot. Or cast in response to them porting your lands during your upkeep. Its also a dude, so Thalia doesn't slow you down, and it hits every one of their men except SFM and Serra Avenger.

[phazonmutant]

I found that in about 30ish games over the last week or so I have only not been able to cast Tombstalker (when I had enough cards in graveyard to delve it) twice, and once was vs Junk where I got Vindicated/wasted off of all black by turn 4, the other was this afternoon where I drew all my Volcanics and no fetches or Seas.

I think for the open I will be cutting the Meltdown, since its mainly for the million Chalice and affinity decks that show up at Super, and maybe the Extirpate as split second is basically irrelevant against most of the decks I will care about at the open. The Knight of the Reliquary decks also often feel difficult to beat as their men beat my men by way too much, so I definitely want submerge. Would you suggest dropping a flusterstorm and something for the REB's?

Nah, Flusterstorm is awesome. I like a Perish in the board as someone else mentioned, but Submerge is fine too.



HOW THE FUCK DOES PEOPLE BEAT DEATH AND TAXES?
Never ever ever let them get Jitte or Mangara-Karakas online. Otherwise it's not that difficult. I have an Electrickery in the board which has been awesome in that matchup. You have to be the aggressor with Delvers and swarm the board with Pyromancer.


Several people have mentioned basics at various points in this thread, but the topic hasn't been addressed at any length, and I think we should at least be discussing it.

No. We're a tempo deck with a fairly low curve, cutting Wasteland is stupid. We're also 3 colors, land-light, reasonably color intensive. Fetching basics is going to screw you as much getting Wasted will.

[L0cke]

Nah, Flusterstorm is awesome. I like a Perish in the board as someone else mentioned, but Submerge is fine too.



My biggest problem is that perish will kill my Deathrites, which single-handedly can turn games around. So we'll see.

[btm10]

Also, you'd be surprised at how well the deck plays as a board-control deck. It can definitely have tempo draws, but if I wanted to be pure tempo I'd play all the Stifles and Wastelands, then just play Thresh.


This is more what I'm getting at. Probably off-topic for the thread, but still relevant. I'll take the discussion elsewhere.

[Esper3k]

Hi.

HOW THE FUCK DOES PEOPLE BEAT DEATH AND TAXES?

Regards,
Quas

We're playing black and red. X/1 white creatures really shouldn't be a problem. In addition to options like Dread of Night, Virtue's Ruin, Grim Lavamancer, etc., I personally am a fan of Darkblast (plays well with Pyromancer and I'm playing a Tombstalker list, so it feeds Stalker as well). We play Red, so it's not like we have a shortage of great artifact removal options either for their equipment.


I'm also on the fence about Tombstalker, mostly for the state mana reasons, but I wanted to touch on a related problem, which is the manabase in general. I'm running basics over Wasteland, because I want the option of playing around Wasteland and Blood Moon. If you're up against active Port + Waste, you've either already lost and should scoop, or you have an active mancer and enough countermagic/discard + probes and brainstorms to protect and activate it. I find myself fetching my basics first unless I'm in a position where I need a color now and have the wrong fetch (e.g., I need R to play YP and only have Sea Delta, but have protection to go now).

Several people have mentioned basics at various points in this thread, but the topic hasn't been addressed at any length, and I think we should at least be discussing it.

Fundamentally, being a tempo deck (per the thread title) means you're going to be susceptible to Blood Moon (at least we're playing Red). Wasteland hurts us a little more than it hurts RUG simply because they function on a generally lower mana curve, but we can still just play through fine since we generally operate on 2 lands. Ports can be annoying, but we have our own Wastelands as well as plenty of Instant / free spells.

[Quasim0ff]

I think the main problem in the matchup was that I had to spend 3 bolts killing his 3 thalias in concussive turns.. + He played 2x Restoration Angels maindeck, as well as just sword of fire and ice and jitte.

Didn't have force/daze for 1st turn vial both games, which was hard to deal with as well...

Anyway: Played this list yesterday in a tournament:

13x Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Dark Confidant
1x Grim Lavamancer

6x Removal:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Dismember

11x Cantrip:
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Gitaxian Probe

12x Counters:
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Force
1x Spell Pierce

18x Land:
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
1x Perish
2x Fire Covenant
2x Baleful Strix
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Flusterstorm
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Electrickery
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Submerge

Went 4-1-1 (drew into top 8)

Round 1:
OTD vs Sneak and Show

Game 1 I had an early delver and a confidant (which he forced)

He went 2x Lotus Petal, Island, Volc Island, Tomb by turn 3 and had Show and Tell. I forced, He brainstormed and forced, I forced again (spent now) and he played his maindeck flusterstorm(....) He laid griselbrand and game was officially good.

Out: 4x Bolt, 2x Dismember, 1x Grim Lavamancer.
In: 2x REB, 2x Flusterstorm, 3x Cabal Therapy

Game 2: I won by having a ton of counters, as well as a T1 delver, T2 bob, T3 double waste his volc and tomb.

Game 3: OTD. He played t1 mountain. I gitaxian Probe and he reveals 2x Petal, Grisel and City of Traitors. I feel pretty good, ponder on t2 to see if I find a land (kept a 1 lander with delver, reb, flusterstorm, probe, force, daze and volc). I don't find on the ponder, and shuffle and find wasteland(...). Turn 3 I flip delver, and land Young Pyromancer. He has drawn flusterstorm, SnT, Island for his 3 draws. Stupid aggressive line I took, and I got punished for it.

0-1 (1-2)

Round 2: Oops, All Spells.

He wins the roll and goes for a t1 Spy. I force, and he doesn't have the pact so I win.

Same as before, both in a out.

He goes turn 1 probe which reveals and I don't have force. He doesn't have the win, so I play Probe and he has a lot of mana but, but they are all ritual based. He doesn't go for it, as he doesn't have any protection vs my flusterstorm. T2 delver from me, and I just sit on it untill I have to counter his spells with flusterstorm etc.

1-1 (3-2)

Round 3: Grixis Delver (THE MIRROR!)

Game 1 I keep a hand of stifle, delver, daze, ponder, waste and 2x fetch OTP.
T1 delver vs his T1 delver (I daze, he force back)
t2 wasteland his land, play ponder, see delver, bolt, probe. Draw delver, reveal probe to t1 delver, play t2 delver, play probe and see he is stuck on mana. he lands a confidant but I get another waste + a stifle in due time, and I chip away untill he is a at 6 life with 2x delver on board and a bolt in hand. He blocks one delver and goes to 3, and I play young pyromancer which he forces. I take 2 from bob, goes to 11 and he passes.
I play bob, and he forces (he is spent now) and I show him the bolt.

Out: 4x Daze, 3x Force (OTD)
In: 2x Strix, 2x REB, 2x Fire Covenant, 1x Electrickery

G2 I just have, he has all creatures, I have all removal (empty board by t4). (4 life to kill 2x Bob and 1x Delver with covenant, value!)
I land Pyromancer, and just grind him down with it. He kept a hand of basically all lands and creatures.

2-1 (5-2)

Round 4 vs Rakdos w. Deathrite+P. Fire

G1 I just go t1 stifle your land, t2 confidant, t3 bolt deathrite, waste your land play delver, and game was good.

I thought he was regular Jund, he I Brought in Perish
G2 he goes t1 Thoughtseize (take bolt), t2 deathrite thoughtseize (take covenant), t3 bob. I had no way to interact with Bob that game and he just won on the back on Bob.
G3 was just the same as G1, where I just tempoed him six feet under.
Matchup was so coinflippy, but I won the die roll so I was happy :)

Round 4, Mono-U omnitell.
OTD

He resolved an early Show and Tell, and had both pact+force for protection. The last 2 cards after SnT was Omni+EtI. GG, off to game 2.

Same as vs. round 1.

Both G2 and G3 I just had an early Bob, and won via the card advantage. The final game, I REB'd 2x Cunning Wish + Dazed a 3rd and I had double flusterstorm, force (+blue card) as well as 2x daze in hand when I double wasted his 2x tombs with him on 5. Pretty easy matchup, I think, due to the massive amount of permission (+ Therapy).

Drew with U/G infect in R6, so we could get something to eat.

Top 8:
Had no artifact hate in board (No1 had smash to smithereens) and got paired vs fucking DnT with maindeck resto angel as well as Sword of Fire and ice. Both games was sad for me. Worst matchup for me in the entire top 8.

Top 8 consisted of:
1x Sneak and Show
2x UWR Delver (eventual winner)
3x Mono-U Omnitell
4x Grixis Delver (me)
5x Death and Taxes (eventual 2nd place)
6x U/G Infect
7x U/W Miracles
8x Mono-U Omnitell.

Won about 45$ in ChannelFireball Credit.
The winner won about 80$ in CFB Credit + A FTV:20.

Tournament was a blast, and will keep on playing and testing this deck (Going to BoM Paris in november, where I'll likely be playing this list + another sideboard).

[Quasim0ff]

Sideboard config as of right now:

2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Electrickery
2x REB
2x Flusterstorm
2x Fire Covenant
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Perish
1x Dread of Night
1x Surgical Extraction (replaceble card. As of yet, I haven't met any M/U's where I'd want Surgical.

I am thinking about dropping the spell pierce in the main for a cabal therapy, and add something else in the sb - or perhaps just keep the 3rd therapy in the sb (in order to go up to 4 vs combo).

Deck is performing insane vs. anything but d&t...... Stupid white weenie.

[phazonmutant]

I've played Grixis at a number of local events recently and done well. List below. To recap quickly:

Saturday, 3-0-1 cut to top4, then 2nd at a 30ish person tournament. 1st got a Force.
2-1 Junk (w/ Stage-Depths) - cantrips allowed me to draw more relevant spells than him, and he never got an opportunity to Depths. Tombstalker closes.
2-1 Agent BUG - close games. I mana-deny him in G2. Game 3 I drop Tombstalker in a tight race with Tarmogoyf and narrowly get there with burn.
2-0 Big Zoo - Still a thing in my meta. Similar to Junk, cantrips draw me relevant spells and I am able mana-screw him by killing dorks and wasting. Tombstalker closes.
ID with UWR landstill. We played a bunch of G1s for fun and I crushed him 3-1.
2-0 Big Zoo - Same deal.
0-2 UWR Landstill - I guess he put his gameface on. G1 I keep a hand with 2 cantrips but no threats and am slow out the gates. He has removal + Snapcaster into removal. G2 I have nothing but men and only 2 lands and am slow out the gates. I do missequence though. So I have Pyromancer, Bob x2, Delver, and 2 Dazes at one point. I drop Bob, he plows with 1 mana up. Fine. He passes, I dropped Bob again, where instead I should have dropped YP. I fought his Snap -> Bolt with 2 Daze but he had the Force. I then dropped YP with no spells in hand and he killed it then killed me.

Sunday, 3-1, 12ish person tournament
2-1 Miracles - He had Punishing Fires, but fortunately I was able to dodge them. G2 CB killed me, then G3 Sulfuric Vortex very easily closed G3 after getting a couple swings in with creatures that got killed.
0-2 Agent BUGr Aluren - Yup. Played against Whippoorwill and he crushed me, not close. Very innovative and interesting deck! Value creatures going on anemic beatdown won the games, but I had to respect the combo so couldn't just board like against Agent BUG.
2-0 Miracles - I was able to mana-screw him when it was relevant and slowroll my threats so he had to burn Terminuses. Vortex won G2, but probably wasn't necessary. This matchup seems very very good.
2-1 Infinite Cunning (Mono-U Omnitell) - I somehow managed to snag g1. I boarded in like 10 cards, but he won g2. G3 I stripped his hand. Therapy is awesome.

Monday, 3-1, 35ish person tournament
2-1 Sneak & Show - He got g1, but didn't resolve a relevant spell sideboard games.
1-2 UR Nivmagus - Joke deck, right? I guess if there's no Abrupt Decays in the meta it's a fine choice. I think I boarded wrong and could have played tighter. G3 came down to topdecks with both of us in single digits, but didn't get there.
2-1 Miracles - Counterbalance is good, but Sulfuric Vortex is better
2-0 Miracles - This guy was playing a build without Vortex and with some Crucibles and Snapcasters. He didn't really stand a chance.

I'm liking the deck a lot. It has so much value! Also playing with quad Probe is very, very sweet. I think the deck is better suited to being somewhere on the board-control or aggro-midrange control spectrum instead of pure tempo like the SCG winning decklist. Stifle is good in Thresh, but Pyromancer encourages you to play a little bit longer game. I've built my deck to reflect that. It gets tempo draws, but can also stand up to more diverse late-game strategies than Thresh (I believe). Tombstalker is unreal. I just do not understand how people aren't playing more of him. He wins almost every race and is bigger than almost all removal and creatures. And finally, the list. It's similar to what I was running before.

// 14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
1 Grim Lavamancer

// 28 Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

// 18 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Wasteland

// Sideboard
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Electrickery
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
1 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm

I'm really torn on the 3 additional disruption slots. I don't believe Stifle is the right choice (although it has done well). Snare has been good for me so far, but I'm not sure it's better than Pierce. The games that I've lost have been to lots of 1-cmc removal and Show and Tell, so maybe it's better to play Pierce? I'd welcome thoughts on this.

[phazonmutant]

Played this deck at SCG Seattle. Started off strong with 3-0, then lost 2 straight to Meathooks and Burn, then essentially stopped caring. Ended up 4-4 (drop to cube).
I can post a tournament report if anyone is interested. Otherwise I won't bother.

As far as the deck moving forwards, I definitely feel like it has some nut draws and some unique appeal. I'm very ambivalent about Tombstalker. It's very good many times and won a couple of tight races, but it might be the case that it causes your mana and other deckbuilding choices to just be worse. I really should try out the 4 Stifle list to see how it is.

As far as the highlights, I won against Joe Lossett! It was close, but Miracles matchup is definitely favorable. I lost 0-2 to Elves, but I feel like I made some decisions incorrectly because I've never played against Elves with tempo. It's way harder than playing against it with Miracles or TES.

[lordofthepit]

I'm very ambivalent about Tombstalker. It's very good many times and won a couple of tight races, but it might be the case that it causes your mana and other deckbuilding choices to just be worse.

You should cut them. :smile:

[Quasim0ff]

Played this deck at SCG Seattle. Started off strong with 3-0, then lost 2 straight to Meathooks and Burn, then essentially stopped caring. Ended up 4-4 (drop to cube).
I can post a tournament report if anyone is interested. Otherwise I won't bother.

As far as the deck moving forwards, I definitely feel like it has some nut draws and some unique appeal. I'm very ambivalent about Tombstalker. It's very good many times and won a couple of tight races, but it might be the case that it causes your mana and other deckbuilding choices to just be worse. I really should try out the 4 Stifle list to see how it is.

As far as the highlights, I won against Joe Lossett! It was close, but Miracles matchup is definitely favorable. I lost 0-2 to Elves, but I feel like I made some decisions incorrectly because I've never played against Elves with tempo. It's way harder than playing against it with Miracles or TES.
Tombstalker was the least impressive part of the deck when I started playing it.

I cut it early, and haven't looked back at all.

I wouldn't mind a tournament report :)

[grixis]

hello

first of all, sorry for my english

i have seen that some people like eric hill (winner scg with grixis) play 2 baleful strix in side

someone can tell me why ? against what match up ?

Futhermore, what do you think about replace fow by cabal therapy main deck because we play 4 probe ?

Thanks for answers =)

I will publish my list tomorow to have yours advice =)

[Quasim0ff]

Strix is an amazing card right now: It cantrips and blocks everything from the other fair decks (Other than mirran crusader).

No, you need FoW. It is usually correct to side them out for cabal therapy in g2, but it is needed to play them main vs combo etc.

[grixis]

thanks for answer

this is my list :

creatures (13)

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer

sorcery and instant (29)

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe

lands (18) :

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

ok, for the MD, my hesitations are :

- dismember or terminate (with bob, you dont often want to loose life, and terminate can kill all creatures)
- dismember or fire/ice ( it can kills snapcaster, bob, clique, two elves, shamane, delver, stoneforge..... and tap an tarmo to attack with your token and you draw a card)
- dismember or forked bolt, like the last player who perf with grixis on SCG ( forked can be nice, because, like fire/ice he can kill lots of creatures, make CA, i think to death and takes against mother, thalia, for example)

=> i need a anti-creature who kill tarmo MD i think (so forked bolt is not very good i think, no ?)

seconde hesitation is about probe and cabal :

- in fact, in played 4 cabal and 4 probe you have 15% to have them in your started hand and 30% to have them at your 5 turn, and dont forgot, we played this cards cause of their synergie with pyromencer (but put token on probe isnt very very good) but probabilities to have cabal / probe / pyromencer are not very good (29% on turn 8 if i remember)

So, my question is, why we dont play basic discard (kozilek or thoughtseize). for example :

=> - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 saisie ?

and the last hesitation for the main deck is :

spell pierce. i explain why : i hate play young pyromencer and dark confidant whan i cant protect them, so im not often play them when i dont know adversaire hand or when i have 2 mana (for daze, or bolt, stp...) but if i have 3 land, i can play them to be dazeproof and if i have spell pierce, i can play it against bolt, stp ....and protect my creature (and for pyromence put token immediatly)

=> so maybe - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 pierce ( i had test pierce today, and im happy about it)


now we pass to the side :

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (against dredge, combo..)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast (the same and delver, jace too)
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer (aggro, shardless, jund....)
SB: 1 Perish (shardless, jund, elfball, little maverick and knight of reliquary even if there are not lots of played nowadays)
SB: 2 Submerge (the same thaht perish)
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens (against chalice of the void, in france there are some MUD and big red now, and turn 1 calice is awful if i havent fow)
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm (same reason thaht smash, and to TT too, maybe dredgre and reanimator too)
SB: 2 Baleful Strix (against miror and middrange deck : tt, esper, deathblade...)
SB: 3 Force of Will (against combo deck of course)

my hésitation for the side :

- darkblast : i think its a very good card against all litte crea (snap, mother, thalia, grim, delver, clique...ELFBALL) and against shamane, stoneforge too. We can use it at upkeep => dredge 3 instead of draw and darkblast again. ok its litte expensive lol but it save my life sometimes (DTAXES, elfball..)

futhermore, its synergique with young pyromence to put lots of token and with grim lavamancer to put cards in graveyards

- a second perish (instead submerge maybe) because i expected to see lots of shardless, elfball, jund at the BOM paris and perish save my life lots of times =)

- flusterstorm : its confortable to know you have it against combo et ANT/TES particulary =)

- sulfur elemental or dread of night : i you thought that there will be lots of deat and taxes

i think its all for me,

thanks for reading

thanks for advices =)


ooohhh no, i forgot, i have seen this side somewhere, what do you think about that, it can make suprise =) :

sideboard :

1 griselbrand
1 iona
1 elseh
4 reanimate
2 exhume
4 entomb
2 faithless looting

anyway something like that. i tested it on cockatrice and people said : "you change deck" ; "what the fuck".

other strategy, you can play reanimator with pyromencer (its great with elesh). your opponent will side againt reanimator and at the second you enter delver, bob ...

THANKSSSSSSSSSS ! im waiting for answers =)

[Mortox]

other strategy, you can play reanimator with pyromencer (its great with elesh). your opponent will side againt reanimator and at the second you enter delver, bob ...

There's actually a player who has been running online daily events with this sort of concept, he basically runs a straight Reanimator deck but with 4 maindeck Pyromancers (not sure what he cut, maybe Gitaxian Probes or something?) and it actually seems to give Reanimator a lot more resilience, he beat me a couple times because I brought in all my GY-hate and he just beat me down with endless Pyromancer tokens (he just cast spells then Dazed/FoW'd his own spells to create like 5+ tokens early) so the concept definitely has merit especially if you're expecting to come up against a lot of GY hate.

[KobeBryan]

I feel this deck isn't as good as brug against jund.

what do you guys think.

[KobeBryan]

thanks for answer

this is my list :

creatures (13)

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer

sorcery and instant (29)

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe

lands (18) :

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

ok, for the MD, my hesitations are :

- dismember or terminate (with bob, you dont often want to loose life, and terminate can kill all creatures)
- dismember or fire/ice ( it can kills snapcaster, bob, clique, two elves, shamane, delver, stoneforge..... and tap an tarmo to attack with your token and you draw a card)
- dismember or forked bolt, like the last player who perf with grixis on SCG ( forked can be nice, because, like fire/ice he can kill lots of creatures, make CA, i think to death and takes against mother, thalia, for example)

=> i need a anti-creature who kill tarmo MD i think (so forked bolt is not very good i think, no ?)

seconde hesitation is about probe and cabal :

- in fact, in played 4 cabal and 4 probe you have 15% to have them in your started hand and 30% to have them at your 5 turn, and dont forgot, we played this cards cause of their synergie with pyromencer (but put token on probe isnt very very good) but probabilities to have cabal / probe / pyromencer are not very good (29% on turn 8 if i remember)

So, my question is, why we dont play basic discard (kozilek or thoughtseize). for example :

=> - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 saisie ?

and the last hesitation for the main deck is :

spell pierce. i explain why : i hate play young pyromencer and dark confidant whan i cant protect them, so im not often play them when i dont know adversaire hand or when i have 2 mana (for daze, or bolt, stp...) but if i have 3 land, i can play them to be dazeproof and if i have spell pierce, i can play it against bolt, stp ....and protect my creature (and for pyromence put token immediatly)

=> so maybe - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 pierce ( i had test pierce today, and im happy about it)


now we pass to the side :

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (against dredge, combo..)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast (the same and delver, jace too)
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer (aggro, shardless, jund....)
SB: 1 Perish (shardless, jund, elfball, little maverick and knight of reliquary even if there are not lots of played nowadays)
SB: 2 Submerge (the same thaht perish)
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens (against chalice of the void, in france there are some MUD and big red now, and turn 1 calice is awful if i havent fow)
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm (same reason thaht smash, and to TT too, maybe dredgre and reanimator too)
SB: 2 Baleful Strix (against miror and middrange deck : tt, esper, deathblade...)
SB: 3 Force of Will (against combo deck of course)

my hésitation for the side :

- darkblast : i think its a very good card against all litte crea (snap, mother, thalia, grim, delver, clique...ELFBALL) and against shamane, stoneforge too. We can use it at upkeep => dredge 3 instead of draw and darkblast again. ok its litte expensive lol but it save my life sometimes (DTAXES, elfball..)

futhermore, its synergique with young pyromence to put lots of token and with grim lavamancer to put cards in graveyards

- a second perish (instead submerge maybe) because i expected to see lots of shardless, elfball, jund at the BOM paris and perish save my life lots of times =)

- flusterstorm : its confortable to know you have it against combo et ANT/TES particulary =)

- sulfur elemental or dread of night : i you thought that there will be lots of deat and taxes

i think its all for me,

thanks for reading

thanks for advices =)


ooohhh no, i forgot, i have seen this side somewhere, what do you think about that, it can make suprise =) :

sideboard :

1 griselbrand
1 iona
1 elseh
4 reanimate
2 exhume
4 entomb
2 faithless looting

anyway something like that. i tested it on cockatrice and people said : "you change deck" ; "what the fuck".

other strategy, you can play reanimator with pyromencer (its great with elesh). your opponent will side againt reanimator and at the second you enter delver, bob ...

THANKSSSSSSSSSS ! im waiting for answers =)

I actually like this concept. It looks pretty fun. Seems more fun than that BRUG deck out there.

Thing is, decks with counters and DRS will still not be the easiest thing to beat.

[Quasim0ff]

I think the transforming sideboard is decent.
I don't think it's good for a long tournament.

I think 0 force main simply is not possible to pull off during a tournament.

Personally I run 3 probe, 1 therapy, 4 ponder, 3 force and 0 lavamancer main.

I run 1 Perish, 1 Dread of Night in sideboard, and these have been enough so far for the matches I want them in.

Deck is still a blast to play, and I really think it's well positioned atm.

[grixis]

true, i agree, its not good for a tournament...

and advice for the rest of my deck (not with reanimator version)

thanks

[Quasim0ff]

true, i agree, its not good for a tournament...

and advice for the rest of my deck (not with reanimator version)

thanks

My current list:

4x Delver
4x Bob
4x Pyromancer

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe

1x Cabal Therapy

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Dismember

4x Stifle
4x Daze
1x Spell Snare
3x Force of Will

4x Wasteland
3x Sea
3x Volc
8x blue fetch (2 delta, 2 misty, 3 tarn and 1 strand).

SB:
2x Cabal Therapy
2x REB
2x Flusterstorm
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Dread of Night
1x Perish
2x Fire Covenant
1x Electrickery
1x Fluff-card (will most likely be a surgical extraction).

[grixis]

my final list is a little the same than you

but

i played :

- 1 ponder - 1 cabal - 1 spell snare / + 2 spell pierce + 1 grim lavamencer (3 cabal in side)

i prefer spell pierce at spell snare

like this when i have 3 land i can protect my bob, delver, pyromencer etc from bolt, stp...

Furthermore, i can counter liliana, thoughtseize, brainstorm, jace...

i think its not bad...

But, when can i play instead of spell pierce ?

And what do you think about darkblast ? =)

- 2 submerge / + 1 perish + 1 darkblast

thanks

[Quasim0ff]

currently, darkblast is the 15th sideboard card =)

snare is for goyf/bob/sfm etc.

[grixis]

yes i know but you have anti creature : dismember, bolt (side : perish, submerge...)

what we want to counter is : liliana, discard (kozilek,...) jace, stp, bolt... maybe jitte and batterskull if you kill stoneforge

other question :

dismember or terminate ?

cause, i often play dismember for 2 (1 colorless and 1 black) life because with dark confidant i dont want to loose to much life

and terminate can kill all creature too (knight, tarmo, grisel) and without loose life. His only inconveniant is for one red and one black, do you think its very bad in his deck ?

thanks

[SirTylerGalt]

I really like where these Grixis Pyromancer / Reanimator brews are going.


Here is Todd Anderson's deck tech at the SCG Invitational

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_young_frankenstein_w.html

He 4-0'ed a daily event a few weeks ago with it:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6044698

And Drew Levin just wrote a premium article about the deck (will be available for free one month from now):

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27219_The-Many-Flavors-Of-Young-Frankenstein.html



Going forward, I want to see if I can fit Izzet Charm and/or Thought Scour to put fatties and Cabal Therapy in my graveyard...

[Myelectronicdays]

Really interested in trying out this young pyromancer / reanimator hybrid. Looks like a fun variation

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

[grixis]

i see lots of Deathmark (3 or 4 in side)

so, this card cant be replace dismember main deck ?

Because, creature you want to kill are : tarmo, mother, stoneforge, shamane, knight, thalia.....(you just not kill dark confidant), you see ather creature that i forget ?

thanks

[grixis]

PS : SirTylerGalt, thanks for those articles =) =) =)

[grixis]

i think i had found something to replace dismember =)

Smother : what are creatures that smother don't destroy in legacy ?

=> dark confidant, stoneforge, tarmo, clique, snapcaster, shamane, delver : all creatures no ?

and for 1 colorless, one black contrary to :

- dismember : have to pay life (and we dont want it with bob)

- terminate : one red, one black (we play 18 lands, we dont always have lots of land)

- foked bolt : dont destroy big crea like tarmo, knight and its sorcery

so, what do you think about that smother ?

[Koby]

=> dark confidant, stoneforge, tarmo, clique, snapcaster, shamane, delver : all creatures no ?

so, what do you think about that smother ?

What about Disfigure? It kills all but Tarmogoyf, but is sitting at the 1 mana sweet spot. It answers 90% of all the problems that Tempo would normally face.

[grixis]

yes but, the aim of the cards is to kill all creature no ?

that's why you dont play forked bolt

if you want to play disfigure, i think that Chain Lightning is better, cause its one more blast to finish pv of your opponent, like we often do with bolt (even if chain lightning is a sorcery)

i just suppose ....

[Quasim0ff]

What about Disfigure? It kills all but Tarmogoyf, but is sitting at the 1 mana sweet spot. It answers 90% of all the problems that Tempo would normally face.
I'd rather play darkblast. Only think darkblast doesn't kill is SFM and a flipped delver, however.
The only reason to play forked bolt is due to massive amount of DnT in your local meta, basically.

[Koby]

I'd rather play darkblast. Only think darkblast doesn't kill is SFM and a flipped delver, however.
The only reason to play forked bolt is due to massive amount of DnT in your local meta, basically.

And Deathrite Shaman, which blocks Elemental tokens.

[Quasim0ff]

And Deathrite Shaman, which blocks Elemental tokens.
Darkblast kills it, after it blocks. It's a drawstep for a DRS.

[grixis]

And Deathrite Shaman, which blocks Elemental tokens.

it make lots of condition, no ?

[grixis]

Darkblast kills it, after it blocks. It's a drawstep for a DRS.

yes, i have already do this, its expensive but it can save your life =), like on shamane

and what do you tinh about it :

2 spell pierce maind deck, like some tempo *****

its great to protect your creature from bolt or stp =)

and against liliaana, jace and discard too (against combo too)

[RedVelvet]

Why not start main deck as the reanimater deck and side all 15 into normal Grixis delver. I would rather be reanimater game one when they have a lower chance of having the answer for it.

[grixis]

new list with nemesis and deathrite

=> can you give me advice ?

ps : dont care about manabase and side (it's test)

3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic edict
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp


SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

[L0cke]

Played this at an SCG IQ today for 2nd place.


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm

4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Force of Will


4 Young Pyromancer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant

//Sideboard
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
1 Meltdown
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Dismember
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Force of Will


There were 25-26 people I believe? 5 rounds+top 8. I thought the deck did quite well. Went 3-1-1 in swiss to draw into top eight. Beat Hoogland Loam, Thresh, Shardless BUG, drawing with Jund and losing to Thresh. My only regret is not playing at least 2 Spell Snare somewhere. I just desperately needed more ways to beat a Goyf. Beat Shardless BUG in the quarterfinals 2-0, nedleeds offered to scoop to me in the semi's because he won't ever play standard and I would have had I gone to the invitational. In the finals I mulliganed to 6 twice, and lost both those games. Although, game three was quite close, he ripped 5 lands in a row off the top and I didn't have the mana to stop all the Golgari Charms. In the end I just got 75 bucks in credit for my troubles, but at least it was an afternoon of legacy.

[nedleeds]

True story. I didn't lose all day.

[KobeBryan]

Why not start main deck as the reanimater deck and side all 15 into normal Grixis delver. I would rather be reanimater game one when they have a lower chance of having the answer for it.

Because against a tempo deck, people usually side out the FOW and they wouldn't bring in GY hate.

Game 1, people usually will have FOW which could counter your reanimation spells. But game 2, when it all comes out, they are in trouble especially since no one sides in gy hate against a tempo deck.

[L0cke]

Fixed that for you.



Game 1, people usually will have FOW which could counter your reanimation spells. But game 2, when it all comes out, they are in trouble especially since no one sides in gy hate against a Non-Green tempo deck.

[RaizeAren]

How well positioned is Grixis in the metagame right now? I would think with True-name running around in the blade decks that there will be an abundance of Golgari charm and Toxic Deluge that could cripple this deck. I like this deck and am debating between running a version of this or ANT for an upcoming tournament. (Maybe this indicates a couple of spell pierce main? Answered my own question I suppose) Interested in how people view the future of this deck.

[KobeBryan]

How well positioned is Grixis in the metagame right now? I would think with True-name running around in the blade decks that there will be an abundance of Golgari charm and Toxic Deluge that could cripple this deck. I like this deck and am debating between running a version of this or ANT for an upcoming tournament. (Maybe this indicates a couple of spell pierce main? Answered my own question I suppose) Interested in how people view the future of this deck.

i wouldn't play it...all the creatures are 1 toughness.

the amount of golgari charm is going to wreck you.

[Juice11]

I'm wondering if there's anyway to run this deck without the bobs? I only have one right now. What are some other creatures that are run in grixis delver or what would a creature list look like with 0-1 bob?

[Zilla]

I'm wondering if there's anyway to run this deck without the bobs? I only have one right now. What are some other creatures that are run in grixis delver or what would a creature list look like with 0-1 bob?
Depends on your meta, but I sometimes cut some Bobs in favor of a couple maindeck Grim Lavamancers. Not a good plan if you're in a combo heavy meta, but if you're playing against a lot of aggressive creature strategies it's a solid option, imo.

[L0cke]

I'm wondering if there's anyway to run this deck without the bobs? I only have one right now. What are some other creatures that are run in grixis delver or what would a creature list look like with 0-1 bob?

I very much like Deathrite Shaman. He lives through Golgari Charm, blocks 1/x's, eats bolt/swords for your Pyromancers to live after, and lets you play turn 2 Pyromancer with stifle/pierce/snare up. I run 3 DRS, 2 Bobs, 1 Lavamancer, for 14 total creatures.

[YamiJoey]

So I've been playing Drew Levin's reanimator thing, and it's incredible. At first I thought the transformational game-plan was the biggest advantage it had, but I played a tonne of G1's to work out how to play the schizophrenic main-deck, but it plays incredibly smoothly once you get used to it. You draw some Entombs and stuff whilst beating down with Delver, and then when they break through you just untap and make a Griselbrand or something. The real problem comes from tempo's suicidal nature, often just bleeding life until it wins, coming at huge odds to Reanimate costing you over a third of your starting life. I would be interested in testing an Esper variant using stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull for similar results over the Young Pyromancer and Lightning Bolt combo, but then I think it'd probably turn into Esper Nemesis and play vastly different. (TNN with an Elesh Norn out does not seem like a reasonable board state to face.)

[SirTylerGalt]

So I've been playing Drew Levin's reanimator thing, and it's incredible. At first I thought the transformational game-plan was the biggest advantage it had, but I played a tonne of G1's to work out how to play the schizophrenic main-deck, but it plays incredibly smoothly once you get used to it. You draw some Entombs and stuff whilst beating down with Delver, and then when they break through you just untap and make a Griselbrand or something. The real problem comes from tempo's suicidal nature, often just bleeding life until it wins, coming at huge odds to Reanimate costing you over a third of your starting life. I would be interested in testing an Esper variant using stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull for similar results over the Young Pyromancer and Lightning Bolt combo, but then I think it'd probably turn into Esper Nemesis and play vastly different. (TNN with an Elesh Norn out does not seem like a reasonable board state to face.)

If you don't want to lose life, you could always Entomb / Reanimate a Platinum Emperion :p

[YamiJoey]

Being unable to cast FoW to protect my bomb seems loose. Sadly Platinum Angel is incredibly weak.

[kryllex]

Hey there guys! New to the Forum, but as i saw Grixis, i just had to post and share my Deck with you guys :tongue::wink:
So, I am running Grixis for a bit now, and I am incredibly satisfied with the Deck. Actually, i am not a big fan of the Deathrite in this shell, especially because I don`t want to add more Creatures due to the Delver flip. But, on the other Hand, i never had the Feeling, that i need him, for Mana boosting or whatever, even if im Running 2x 3drops, which are, indeed, Nemesis - Thanks to Young Pyromancer, who defends the entire ground with his tokens, until TNN Lands the drop or Delver flys over a few times. Also, i am Running 4x Bob, because i think in a Deck like this, he just goes nuts. A few more Draws, feeding the Pyromancer, are just awesome. :smile:

My momental built is this:

Maindeck:
2x True-Name Nemesis
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Dark Confidant
1x Grim Lavamancer

3x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle

4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Baleful Strix (I LOVE these!! :eek:)
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Force of Will
2x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
1x Pyroblast
1x Smash to Smithereens
1x Rough // Tumble

Currently thinking about adding 1x Diabolic Edict to the Maindeck, probably cutting 1 Pyromancer for it. Of course, because of the TNN flooding the Meta atm.
And maybe 2x Spell Pierce, because things like Zealus Persecution nearly wipe out my whole Field.

[Illusions]

I posted about this in the MTGS grixis tempo thread, but it seems to me that a lot of these lists are actually midrange decks masquerading as tempo decks. In my opinion, bob and YP are both midrange cards, as they don't present enough of a board presence to be able to close out a game themselves. They sacrifice immediate tempo for card advantage, when what you actually want in a tempo deck is immense pressure backed up with as much disruption as you can feasibly pack. Often, this involves sacrificing card advantage for an immediate advantage in board presence, and disruptive capability (i.e. the reason why force of will is so good in tempo). We should be building away from cutesy value engines, and towards more immediately powerful strategies that rapidly close out the game. Drawing cards is good, but it's never been better than winning the game.

For the most part, this deck shares the large bulk of its disruption package with the other delver decks, with the primary difference being the threats it packs. Bob and YP don't bash in, aren't evasive, and require several turns before they start accruing enough value to win the game. On top of this, they die to a stiff breeze, and are difficult to protect. Because they're so fragile, you need to protect them for a comparatively long time compared to other threats, that could close out the game in the meantime, and mitigate risk. I think there are two promising avenues at this stage that grixis players should be experimenting with. The first is using a trimmed down creature package of:

4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Tombstalker
2/3 TNN

To put the screws to your opponent. Each creature is capable of ending the game on its own, and backed up with lightning bolts and chain lightning, is a real threat that needs to be answered. This creature package doesn't fold to the TNN hate that is currently seeing widespread play, and everything is evasive, which plays into our plan of dealing damage and mopping up with burn. There's a tendency for players to shy away from a creature if they aren't getting 100% value out of it, when in actuality, it may still be the best creature for the job. In this case, we aren't running green for DRS, but he's still more efficient than GLM, and can hit your opponent's yard. Even without the green ability, he's still the best 1 drop ever printed, and makes your early game a turn faster, while adding reach and yard hate in the midgame. He's the primary reason you would want to run black. The same goes for TNN. We aren't putting a sword on him like UWR, but he's still an unblockable threat that can't be removed, and unlike UWR, we can put him down a turn earlier, and back him up with more aggressive threats. What we want is a clock that doesn't need much protection, and he gives us that. Tombstalker is highly underrated right now. If he sticks, it's essentially game over.

The second configuration that looks promising is the unearth/vexing devil package, in which case you play like a sligh deck. A few lists have been posted on MTGS, but the creature package I would use is probably something like:

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Vexing Devil
2 Tombstalker

You then back this up with 3 unearth, a traditional delver disruption package, and lightning bolts. In this case, you're looking to burn your opponent down, with the option of controlling them and bashing face while you get your threats online. I'm not sure how well vexing devil plays into the tempo strategy, since he's basically a burn spell rather than a threat in the early game, but I think it has a lot of potential with unearth in this type of shell.

In any case, food for thought.

Cheers!

[Qweerios]

@illusions,

I agree with you on the role of grixis tempo and how reach is its most convincing attribute of this color combination. I believe the right approach to grixis is something close to team america with red instead of green (AKA: Bolt > Decay). You swap Goyfs for TNN, making the creature base more resilient and less vulnerable to GY hate while also increasing the low blue count for FoW. Along with Tombstalker, TNN is another difficult threat to remove that only succumbs to very different, yet specific, removal.

Since the core of the deck is blue and some of the best black cards require double black mana (Liliana, Tombstalker, Hymn), red cards should be kept to a minimum mainly for Bolts, Forked Bolts, and SB options like Red Blasts and Ancient Grudge.

I suggest the following as a contender:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
0-4 Forked Bolt
0-4 Dismember
0-4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands


Oh and I don't think Chain Lightning is a good card compared to Forked Bolt and Dismember...

What do you think?

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[wcm8]

Losing Goyf for TNN seems reasonable, but Abrupt Decay is part of what makes Team America such a great deck. So I wouldn't say that Bolt > Decay in all situations. The flexibility of Decay and also it not being counterable is important in a format as broad and fast as Legacy.

Honestly I think Grixis is just trying to force a color combination that doesn't quite justify itself yet. I do think Grim Lavamancer and Young Pyromancer have potential. I wonder if you could play a bunch of hyper cantrips that could build up an army of Pyromancer tokens and also fill up the graveyard for early/multiple Tombstalkers.

[Qweerios]

Losing Goyf for TNN seems reasonable, but Abrupt Decay is part of what makes Team America such a great deck. So I wouldn't say that Bolt > Decay in all situations. The flexibility of Decay and also it not being counterable is important in a format as broad and fast as Legacy.

Honestly I think Grixis is just trying to force a color combination that doesn't quite justify itself yet. I do think Grim Lavamancer and Young Pyromancer have potential. I wonder if you could play a bunch of hyper cantrips that could build up an army of Pyromancer tokens and also fill up the graveyard for early/multiple Tombstalkers.

Team America's success has much more to do with its effectiveness at using one sided Golgari Charms and being the fastest deck playing Liliana than its versatile targeted removal in a TNN/Elves/DnT metagame.

I don't think Decay is nearly as good as Bolt for a tempo deck in the current metagame. Let's not forget how Decay costs 2 mana and how that is one of Team America's weaknesses. As a long time TA player I can assure you that the lack of T1 removal is greatly missed in BUG Delver decks. Not being able to remove a T1 Mom or DRS on the draw greatly decreases your ability for backbreaking tempo plays and will sometimes blow you out of the water. Not being able to Ponder or Brainstorm into removal with 2 mana is another way in which TA's removal suite falls short. Besides, almost every targetable threats in this format will fall to Bolt with the exception of the ever-so-unpopular Goyf and KotR.

As far as targeting non-creatures go, Ancient Grudge is generally much better at handling equipments and vials than Decay. Flashback also has good synergy with Liliana. As for enchantments under CMC 3, RiP is not as much of an issue without Goyfs. CB is about as much of a downer as losing Decay can get but that's easily mitigated with a healthy dose of red blasts against Miracles.

[wcm8]

That's why TA plays some number of Dismember/Disfigure, with more in the board + Golgari Charm to wipe away all X/1s. Grixis can only achieve through something like Electrickery or Fire Covenant.

TA can run some number of Krosan Grip to deal with Batterskull and such. And it's actually better than Grudge against the UWr tempo decks due to it being uncounterable.

I'm not trying to hate on this thread or UBR in general, but what I am saying is that in order to justify running the color combination, there needs to be a great reason to do so. Otherwise you're just running a less effective version of an existing deck (RUG, BUG, or UWR). So what is it that BR can offer to the blue tempo shell that isn't available elsewhere? And that is also better than Goyf and Stoneforge Mystic? I'm not so sure that Young Pyromancer or Grim Lavamancer are good enough with the current Legacy metagame. And then if we aren't running any Red creatures, does this really justify playing a third color just for access to Bolt and some sideboard options? What makes this better than the 4-color Rug lists?

It's tough. I think what would need to happen is some sort of amazing BR creature would need to be printed. I don't foresee spells getting much better than what we already have access to.

[Hof]

@illusions,

I agree with you on the role of grixis tempo and how reach is its most convincing attribute of this color combination. I believe the right approach to grixis is something close to team america with red instead of green (AKA: Bolt > Decay). You swap Goyfs for TNN, making the creature base more resilient and less vulnerable to GY hate while also increasing the low blue count for FoW. Along with Tombstalker, TNN is another difficult threat to remove that only succumbs to very different, yet specific, removal.

Since the core of the deck is blue and some of the best black cards require double black mana (Liliana, Tombstalker, Hymn), red cards should be kept to a minimum mainly for Bolts, Forked Bolts, and SB options like Red Blasts and Ancient Grudge.

I suggest the following as a contender:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
0-4 Forked Bolt
0-4 Dismember
0-4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands


Oh and I don't think Chain Lightning is a good card compared to Forked Bolt and Dismember...

What do you think?

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

I made a deck almost exactly like that right after TNN (oktober 2013). I had some number of Spell Pierce in your 0-4 slots, and only 19 lands.
I had the same approach as you (Team America with red instead of green).
I never got around to playtesting it, and wasn't able to get all the cards before BoM. Maybe now is the time...

One very important point about this deck IMO compared to other tempo decks, is that every creature has evasion. Every single one.
This goes nicely with burn spells, for obvious reasons.
For this reason I don't think we need Liliana. I would max the number of TNN. I would probably suggest:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire /Ice

3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

[Qweerios]

I know you aren't "hating" on Grixis but your argument here implies that complementing a UB core with green is better than red because Decay, Golgari Charm, and KGrip is assumed to be superior than their red counterparts as a whole... which I disagree with completely.

There is no need for cheap sweepers in tempo decks, they just happen to be good in certain matchups. Not having access to Golgari Charm doesn't somehow make the DnT, Elves, and TNN matchups harder (because thats where they are most relevant for). Forked Bolt is a wonderful card against all of these decks and will result in numerous 2 for 1s. It is also very versatile as it also kills x/2 creatures which happen to be extremely popular (DRS, SFM, Delver...). All of that for half the cost of any -1/-1 sweeper. When it comes down to TNN, any edict effect will work if you have an efficient removal suite. Surround a couple of Lilies and Edicts with any combination of Bolts/Forked/Dismember and you have a killer swarm/aggro/tempo removal suite. Against a deck like Deathblade and Patriot for instance, I really dislike boarding in a Golgari Charm or a Zealous Persecution when I could be boarding edict effects because it only affects their TNN. Cards like ZP and GC really shine against Elves and DnT decks, that's about it.

If TA plays any amount of Disfigure and Dismember, it is often no more than 1-2 copies mainboard, and it comes at the cost of playing Liliana. Because of the high land and creature count for a tempo deck, TA usually plays 25-26 instants/sorceries at most. Let's not forget how narrow and inconsistent a removal suite of 1-2 Disfigure and 4 Decays can be compared to a full 5-6 1 CMC burn suite. That's 5-6 dead cards against a lot of decks out there, and they are much more likely to be all shut down by an active mom on T1 (therefore the need for cheap sweepers for G2 and G3).

Well yes, red is worth playing simply for Bolt > Decay. It doesn't take much to see how Bolt has more relevance to more matchups and how it is plainly more a tempo card than Decay. RUG decks don't need more than red SB cards and 4 Bolts main to justify playing red altogether. There is nothing preventing RUG from switching Volcanics with USeas, playing AD > Bolt, and having access to much needed TNN hate in their SB. Yet RUG has more success conceding to a Chalice@1, a CB/Top lock, or a resolved RiP while playing Bolts > Decayss than they do the other way around because Bolt is more efficient and linear than Decay in a UG tempo shell.

Unlike bUrg, Grixis tempo offers a much more stable manabase (I play bUrg too, and the manabase is a shipwreck). Most importantly, more of Grixis' black cards are double colored. I can tell you by experience that Decay in bUrg is probably the heaviest card in that deck. The combination of black and green in a blue-centric, 4 colored tempo deck is extremely difficult to accomplish smoothly and can backfire on you just as easily. For those reasons, some of the latest lists of bUrg have foregone Decay altogether in favor of Dismember, which I believe to be an improvement.

[Qweerios]

Attended a small weekly tournament with Grixis Tempo and was pleasantly surprised by this deck's performance.

Results:
2-0 vs. 12 Post

Tombstalker, Nemesis, and Delvers along with Bolts got me through a Primeval Titan fetching Glimmerposts every swing for a total of 20+21 life. Took the second game with double Nemesis and Bolts.

2-0 vs. Deathblade

Came back from a triple Delver and double Wasteland start from my opponent and stabilized with a Tombstalker for the win. Won the second game with my own triple Delver start and Ancient Grudge sealed the deal.

2-1 vs. Canadian Thresh

Won the first with 3 FoW and a Tombstalker. Lost the second to 2 Goyfs that I failed to answer or race. Stabilized against 4 Mongoose with 2 Nemesis on the last game and ended it with a Tombstalker.

0-2 vs. UR Delver

Double Waste and bolt on my DRS gets me after I fail to find a land when a Young Pyromancer kills me in 5 turns. Took 2 Wastes and 2 Bolts on my DRS on G2 and never found another land with 2 Brainstorm and 2 Ponder. I died around turn 10 to a Delver while I looked at my Underground Sea and 3 Wastes in play while holding a Nemesis, Tombstalker, 2 Bolts, 1 Forked Bolt, and a Pyroblast....

Here's the deck:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Forked Bolt
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage


-The deck feels a lot like Team America except that Nemesis and Bolts close out games much faster than Goyf and Decay.

-Chain Lightning was sided out a lot and Forked Bolt would have served as well. I think Forked Bolt would be better in the main, therefore opening space in the SB. Perhaps a pair of Diabolic Edicts would be better (additional Nemesis removal and answers Goyf/Mongoose/KotR)?

-Tombstalker did a lot of work.

-Hymn to Tourach was amazing.

[cogitoergosum]

For those running pyromancer, what are your thoughts on running 1-2 innocent blood in heavy TNN metas? Seems good but might be too cute. Haven't tested it yet.

[bob2008]

@Quweerios :
I like your list. I totally agree that red has a lot to offer. Burn combined with evasive creatures feels very strong.

My list is very similar to yours except that I play Stifle instead of Hymn.
This allows me to lower the land count to 19 as Stifle can also be used to protect my own mana base(sure these are corner cases). The free slot is used for another bolt.
Hymn might be more brutal and powerful but a well timed Stifle can create bad blowouts as well.
However the addition of Stifle changes the way the deck is played. With stifle you go from a more proactive to a more reactive tempo-oriented direction.
What do you guys think about this approach?

I haven’t much time recently but so far I played two small tourneys at our LGS and finished 3:0 and 3:0 (against 2x death and taxes, reanimator, big zoo, ANT, BURG)
@all:
I used to play Electrickery or Fire Conv. as sweepers but recently I realised how good Marsh Casualties is! You guys should give it a try! The card is good against d&t, elves etc AND can be used to kill TNN. My current sideboard contains 2 Lilly and 2 Marsh casualties and 3 Pyroblast - so I think I don’t have to be afraid of opposing TNNs.

Opinions?

[Qweerios]

@bob2008,

I am glad someone else shares an interest for this great deck, it is really underrated. Congratulations on your results with the deck!

To answer your question, I don't like Stifle in this type of shell because it is reactive. The Team America formula of proactive disruption combined with free reactive disruption is very efficient already. It allows you to optimize your mana for threats and disruption while your opponent is forced to play into Daze/FoW. It is more difficult to optimally play a Nemesis if you cannot leave mana open for a Pierce/Snare/Stifle. Hymn is always a devastating blow to your opponent while stifle forces you to leave mana open and may or may not be as game-breaking. I used to play and Stifle version of Grixis Tempo and the deck requires a number of Spell Pierce/Snare that I always struggled to find space for. Also, Clique is better than Nemesis in a reactive deathrite-tempo deck. I eventually dismissed the concept because the deck didn't pack enough of a fast punch compared to RUG and thus I could not always take advantage of the windows Stifle granted me.

I don't think Electrickery and Fire Covenant are good enough for the meta. As far as sweeping weenies go, I think Forked Bolt is as good as it gets because it doubles up as removal against most of the field and will sometimes yield 2 for 1 exchanges. As for Marsh Casualties, I don't like the card. It is great against Elves and DnT decks (where Forked Bolt shines just as bright) but terrible against Nemesis decks. Nemesis decks commonly have low threat counts and play cards with 2 toughness such as Deathrite, Stoneforge, Delver, and even Geist. For Nemesis (midrange) decks, I much prefer edict effects such as Liliana and Diabolic Edict because they are relevant against the rest of the deck and double up as additional removal against other non-Nemesis midrange decks (Goyfs, KotR, Ooze, etc...)

[Qweerios]

Took 1st place at a 34-man tournament today using this beautiful little deck.


Threats (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells (26)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana of the Veil


Round 1: 2-0 vs. budget mono green aggro crap (bye)

Round 2: 1-2 vs. Maverick

SB: -4 FoW, -2 Daze, +2 Grudge, +2 Edict, +1 Lily, +1 Needle,
I had the last game but a topdecked Sigarda rained on my parade)

Round 3: 2-0 vs. UWr Miracles

SB: -4 Daze, -2 Forked -2 Tombstalker, -1 Bolt, +3 Pyro, +3 Pierce, +2 Needle, +1 Lily
I played Tombstalker in game 1 so I expected RiP to be sided in for G2, which my opponent did.

Round 4: 0-2 vs. Team America

SB: -4 FoW, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily, +1 Pierce
Terrible hands, mulligan, and Delver flips cost me the game. We played 3 more games afterwards and I won all 3.

Round 5: 2-0 vs. UWr Miracles

SB: -4 Daze, -2 Forked -3 Bolt, +3 Pyro, +3 Pierce, +2 Needle, +1 Lily
I kept Tombstalkers in because I didn't play any during G1. I didn't see RiP and I saw a Snapcaster.

Round 6: 2-0 vs. Blade Control

SB: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +3 Pyro, +2 Grudge, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily

I finished 8th and we split top8. 3 of us played for store points that work towards a temporary ranking system. I got the bye since we were 3 to proceed, and played in the finals against the same guy I lost to on round 4 (Team America) and won 2-1.

2-1 vs. Team America
SB: -2 Daze, -1 FoW, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily on the draw
-4 FoW, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily, +1 Pierce on the play

Any questions or feedback?

[lambert101]

I currently am on UWR delver but love me some deathrite but hate goyf so this list looks awesome. Was wondering if the 2 fork bolts could become 2 abrupt decay? Just a thought. Additionally, how was the 1 of Lilly in the main? Would a 4th TNN just be better? Finally, what about thoughtseize over hymn to cut the badlands for another volcanic to increase the use of daze? Another thought of cutting the 2 forkedbolts and the 1 of lill for 3 spell pierce main to have 3 disfigures/decays/fbolts? Finally, what about thoughtseize over hymn to cut the badlands for another volcanic to increase the use of daze?

[Qweerios]

Thoughtseize is a loss of tempo and life. Hymn is a crippling blow that your opponent will struggle to recover from. Reaching double black mana isn't too complicated and the payoff of playing powerful cards such as tombstalker, hymn, and Liliana is well worth the color commitment.

I would advise against splashing into green for decay as the deck is already blue and black heavy with a splash in red. I admit that decay would be a desired card if it were on color.

Forked bolt is great because it is cheap, removes almost every creature in the format, gives reach, and can potentially be a 2 for 1. Its closest competitor is dismember. Anything over cmc 1 doesn't fit the bill.

I don't want spell pierce main because I don't want to be forced to leave mana open to react to my opponent. Hymn is by far the better alternative. I wouldn't cut removal for pierces either.

4 nemesis works fine. I bumped him down to 3 because I would often draw multiples before I could play one, and you don't really need more than 1 to begin with. I tried a singleton Liliana in the main because I am always siding her in. Liliana is a great card for almost every matchup in practice but she is less attractive alongside daze and fow in theory. She also doesn't count towards the instant/sorcery count for delver. I try to stay above 25 at all times.

Disfigure is strictly inferior to forked bolt.

Attempting to "increase the use of daze" by cutting badlands is futile.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[SirTylerGalt]

@Qweerios:

I played around with your previous list on Cockatrice. I moved the 2 Forked Bolt main - as you suggested - and removed a Tombstalker for a Liliana, since Liliana is useful in many matchups. I guess removing a TNN for Liliana also makes sense, but it lowers the blue count for FoW. Not sure which one I want more.

In the sideboard, I wanted a second Pithing Needle effect, and ended up adding a Null Rod instead (which Javier played at GP Paris).

I love Grixis Tempo, but I hate that so many cool creatures in those colors have 1 toughness (Dark Confidant, TNN, Delver, Young Pyromancer), which limits our options in a meta filled with -1/-1 effects.

Have you considered a one-of Bitterblossom? They use it as the 13th creature in some bUrg lists.

[Qweerios]

@Qweerios:

I played around with your previous list on Cockatrice. I moved the 2 Forked Bolt main - as you suggested - and removed a Tombstalker for a Liliana, since Liliana is useful in many matchups. I guess removing a TNN for Liliana also makes sense, but it lowers the blue count for FoW. Not sure which one I want more.

In the sideboard, I wanted a second Pithing Needle effect, and ended up adding a Null Rod instead (which Javier played at GP Paris).

I love Grixis Tempo, but I hate that so many cool creatures in those colors have 1 toughness (Dark Confidant, TNN, Delver, Young Pyromancer), which limits our options in a meta filled with -1/-1 effects.

Have you considered a one-of Bitterblossom? They use it as the 13th creature in some bUrg lists.

I don't think that lowering the blue count from 24 to 23 Is significant for fow. I believe that replacing what is essentially a two-drop with a three-drop is more relevant here. Also, diversifying your threats is important if you dont want -1/-1 effects to be relevant.

Null rod is definitely an interesting tech. However, I added the second needle to combat stage depths and miracles. Null rod does very little for those matchups compared to the second needle. As for other matchups, I prefer the combination of needle and grudge against mom, vials, and equipments. Needle is also great against sneak attack and liliana will shut down any attempt to show n tell.

I contemplated bitterblossom as a sb card at best but figured it was only good against miracles. I dont like the fact That it notably grows goyf either.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[bob2008]

Another attendance at our LGS.
This time with Hymn over Stifle – worked well :cool:
Again 3:0 in Matches this time beating BUG-Delver, Elves and D&T
More people should give this a try....

[Qweerios]

I agree. What did you play against?

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[bob2008]

I recently did some more testing against TNN-Blade and Team America and the deck performed quite well. Especially the games against TA proved the huge tempo advantage that Bolt provides (compared to A.Decay). I don’t have much to time for magic lately but as far as I can say the deck seems to have good matchups against most of the DTB.

However the last event at our LGS was really awkward. I seldom had so less fun while playing magic...
I expected to face the usual suspects like Elves, TA, Strom and co but ended up playing against fringe decks all day long.

First round was against POX (0:2) followed by a more or less close 1:2 loss against Locus-MUD (had to mull down to 5 in the last game). The last round completed my list of shitty matchups for that day as I had to play against Nic Fit. Somehow I managed to win this 2:0 but hey I was on tilt anyway since the fantastic POX-paring in round one.

Gonna try to delete this day from my memories....

[KobeBryan]

Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Forked Bolt

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SB: 2 Exhume
SB: 4 Entomb
SB: 2 Faithless Looting
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 4 Reanimate

This is my newest reiteration of the deck. Game 1 wins with stifle wastes like RUG, but game 2 is when people don't board things in for you.

[YamiJoey]

Stifle - Wasteland / Dark Confidant - Pyroman doesn't seem like a very focused strategy. One thing I learned when I played various Delver variants (before switching back to the Best Deck) was that you need to choose your role. Pyroman and Bob are both very midrange grindy cards that favour the likes of Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil, whereas Stifle and Wasteland are a very aggressive strategy, shutting your opponent down and keeping the game on the opening turns. Whilst making a T1 Stifle, T2 Bob/Pyroman -> Daze -> Waste you and you're probably dead seems fine, RUG plays it because its only 2-drops are Goyf in basically the whole deck. (Eg 1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13058&iddeck=95835) - Nothing in the main - [url=http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12975&iddeck=95198[/url] - The lone Fire // Ice breaking the mould.) This is the same reason UWR doesn't play it.

Wastes are fine, they deal with problem Lands and mess with people, but Stifle forces your whole game in another direction. 2-drops Delver is a slow control deck. I'm an advocate for something like:

4 Delver, 4 Deathrite, 4 Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Lightning Bolt, 3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 4 Wasteland
8 Fetchlands, 3 Sea, 2 Volc

This is a hyper aggressive style deck, that has the ability to T1 control draw, into a Deathrite or Delver, then on T3 you're making your threats count, and the damage you've done on T1 alongside your protection with threat on T2 becomes apparent. You could cut Therapies here for Stilfe, but then you're a strange RUG Delver deck. (Which may not be bad.)

The midrange variant I would play as:

4 Delver, 4 Deathrite Shaman, 4 Bob, 4 Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm, 4 Probe, 4 Ponder
4 Bolt, 4 Therapy, 3 Hymn
4 Daze, 4 Force
8 Fetchlands, 3 Sea, 2 Volc

Probably want to cut a Spell or two for another Land here or something, but this deck Grinds a little better, using disruption as plan No. 1, and then when it has a mana spare it will get a Threat and all of a sudden your opponent is out of cards and you have a little guy and a free counterspell.

Generally, it's always the Red that feels out of place in these decks. Black forces you to play a Sorcery Speed disruption/interaction plan, which slows you down, and your Red is a 2-drop value Creature and a Burn Spell.

[Bravosi]

Hey,
Yesterday I played the deck for the first time and it performed quite well…
i played:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 TNN

4 Bolts
4 Chain lightning
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Counterspell

4 Scalding tarn
4 Misty rainforest
1 poluted delta
3 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

I don't like playing hymne in this deck because I don't want to wait till turn 3 until I can cast my first burn spell.

I'll try a snapcaster mage in the slot of the 4th TNN (20 potential cc1 targets seem to be a lot)

I'm not sure if I want to play a tropical island to have access to the third ability of DRS, maybe in the board.



Gesendet von meinem HUAWEI P6-U06 mit Tapatalk

[Qweerios]

@Bravosi

Of course you want a single Tropical Island. DRS abilities are all relevant and having access to Ancient Grudge in the SB is a great addition.

Also, I like the Stifle route for Grixis as well with the RUG-like shell except for the replacement of Goyf by Nemesis. Having everything being instant speed and/or cost 1 mana is a safe way to leave mana open for Stifle. Losing the double black spells in favor of more burn is another interesting take and might just make the deck more linear.

[Bravosi]

The green ability of DRS is useful against Dredge, tinfins and burn (+ delverburn) but in most matchups you don't want to see it. Sideboard solutions as ancient grudge might be an interesting point... I'll give it a try…

The snapcaster I tested in the slot of the 4 th nemesis performed very good and I'm really happy with the one off counterspell;-)

Gesendet von meinem HUAWEI P6-U06 mit Tapatalk

[Qweerios]

@Bravosi,

It is also good at shrinking burn, gaining life against a Nemesis, and Reanimator. It is a single land in your deck so it won't kill you. Not having that land in several matchups however, will kill you...

[mextremartini]

@Bravosi:
I made some substitutions, and i am also playtesting a lot in cocktrice. There are few changes... (CAPSLOCK)


4 Delver
4 DRS
3 TNN
1 SNAPCASTER

4 Bolts
ZERO Chain lightning
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 FORKED BOLT
2 SPELL PIERCE
1 GITAXIAN PROBE

4 Scalding tarn
4 Misty rainforest
ZERO poluted delta
3 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 TROPICAL ISLAND

[Quasim0ff]

Took 1st place at a 34-man tournament today using this beautiful little deck.


Threats (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells (26)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana of the Veil


Round 1: 2-0 vs. budget mono green aggro crap (bye)

Round 2: 1-2 vs. Maverick

SB: -4 FoW, -2 Daze, +2 Grudge, +2 Edict, +1 Lily, +1 Needle,
I had the last game but a topdecked Sigarda rained on my parade)

Round 3: 2-0 vs. UWr Miracles

SB: -4 Daze, -2 Forked -2 Tombstalker, -1 Bolt, +3 Pyro, +3 Pierce, +2 Needle, +1 Lily
I played Tombstalker in game 1 so I expected RiP to be sided in for G2, which my opponent did.

Round 4: 0-2 vs. Team America

SB: -4 FoW, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily, +1 Pierce
Terrible hands, mulligan, and Delver flips cost me the game. We played 3 more games afterwards and I won all 3.

Round 5: 2-0 vs. UWr Miracles

SB: -4 Daze, -2 Forked -3 Bolt, +3 Pyro, +3 Pierce, +2 Needle, +1 Lily
I kept Tombstalkers in because I didn't play any during G1. I didn't see RiP and I saw a Snapcaster.

Round 6: 2-0 vs. Blade Control

SB: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +3 Pyro, +2 Grudge, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily

I finished 8th and we split top8. 3 of us played for store points that work towards a temporary ranking system. I got the bye since we were 3 to proceed, and played in the finals against the same guy I lost to on round 4 (Team America) and won 2-1.

2-1 vs. Team America
SB: -2 Daze, -1 FoW, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily on the draw
-4 FoW, +2 Edicts, +1 Lily, +1 Pierce on the play

Any questions or feedback?
Crushed UWR Delver 7-1 earlier this week,
However Goyf seems to be fairly hard to deal with, once resolved. The only out you have to goyfs are tnn and liliana, and that seems fairly narrow.

[meffeo]

Crushed UWR Delver 7-1 earlier this week,
However Goyf seems to be fairly hard to deal with, once resolved. The only out you have to goyfs are tnn and liliana, and that seems fairly narrow.

What about some Submerge in sideboard? I've always found them very useful, especially in response to a cracked fetchland.

[Esper3k]

Perish is a little expensive but god it's such a kick in the balls...

[meffeo]

Right, Perish could be also a great answer, also vs Elves. I noticed the absence of Krosan Grip, what about the Miracles matchup?

[Quasim0ff]

Perish is a little expensive but god it's such a kick in the balls...

We are DRS deck. That seems fairly stupid.

Also, We are not base green. I'd prefer abrupt decay over krosan grip, anyway, as in the miraclesmu it also can kill angels/clique as well as top/balance.

I played -1 forked bolt +1 spell snare in the md, and will likely test -2 forked +2 spell snare in the future. The card is just incredible for us, as it handles sfm/goyf/counterbalance/jitte/tibalt.

[Qweerios]

If Goyf is a concern, I suggest replacing Forked Bolts with Dismembers. A healthy amount of 1 CMC removal is essential to this deck's success because we cannot allow DRS to go unchecked. The little guy does too much to alleviate our pressure.

@Quasim0ff,

To be fair of Snare vs. Removal, Snare doesn't answer Jitte if you cannot remove SFM. Removal is generally more versatile at handling a Goyf than a Snare. Counterbalance is a bitch but it is a fair concession given that we play a Grixis deck. However I will grant you that Snare is probably the best way known to man to deal with a Tibalt...

@Meffeo,

I don't think Submerge is desirable when you have access to black and red removal.

[Quasim0ff]

If Goyf is a concern, I suggest replacing Forked Bolts with Dismembers. A healthy amount of 1 CMC removal is essential to this deck's success because we cannot allow DRS to go unchecked. The little guy does too much to alleviate our pressure.

@Quasim0ff,

To be fair of Snare vs. Removal, Snare doesn't answer Jitte if you cannot remove SFM. Removal is generally more versatile at handling a Goyf than a Snare. Counterbalance is a bitch but it is a fair concession given that we play a Grixis deck. However I will grant you that Snare is probably the best way known to man to deal with a Tibalt...

@Meffeo,

I don't think Submerge is desirable when you have access to black and red removal.
I really cannot accept giving miracles a G1-bye, basically, if they know how play around daze. Recently, with the massive uprise of Team 'Murika, dismember might actually be fine, as they have goyf/bob(tnn :()/drs/tombstalker that all dies to it.

I'd rather play Arc Trail than Forked Bolt, or even Flame Slash over forked bolt. Arc trail at least kills Tibalt +1. (My current meta is 3x Tibalt+Gamble meta, really underrated deck I think. Really good with madness!!! Mark my words, new tear1-deck...)

On a less "2-mana planes walker must be good"-sidenote, my current sideboard is:
2x Spell Pierce
2x Red Elemental Blast (These are just superior to Pyroblast, when we don't play geese honestly.)
2x Flusterstorm (These might be Swan Song's eventually, or at least a 1/1 split. I don't like to have no response to a sneak attack on the stack, other than FoW, Pierce, Daze as well as Pithing Needle. Currently no-1 plays Sneak in my meta, however, so not really needed.)
1x Extirpate
1x Surgical (Only have 1x Foil NPH one. Also, Extirpates split second ability might actually be relevant vs something... Perhaps Tin-Fins? I honestly don't know.)
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Ancient Grudge (Only have 1x TSP foil grudge. Also, Bolt + kill batter skull is naise)
1x Smash to Smithereens
1x Pithing Needle (Good vs Jace, Sneak Attack, Top, Tibalt(...). Just a fine catch-all card honestly. I like to be on the safe side. Also good vs. belcher)
1x Null Rod (Good vs. Storm as well as Miracles)
1x Grafdiggers Cage (I'd honestly like to find room for 1 more of these, as they really make elves a better matchup!)
1x Liliana of the Veil (Best card in the Board. Also nominee for best card in the MD, I want her to give birth to my babys)

[Esper3k]

We are DRS deck. That seems fairly stupid.

Also, We are not base green. I'd prefer abrupt decay over krosan grip, anyway, as in the miraclesmu it also can kill angels/clique as well as top/balance.

I played -1 forked bolt +1 spell snare in the md, and will likely test -2 forked +2 spell snare in the future. The card is just incredible for us, as it handles sfm/goyf/counterbalance/jitte/tibalt.

Just because we play DRS doesn't mean that Perish is horrible. That argument is like saying playing any sort of sweeper that could hurt yourself too sucks. Obviously, you don't Perish if you're up on the board. If you don't have a DRS out or yours has gotten killed off (more likely), Perish is just great. If it's the choice between Perishing and dying to multiple Goyf/Mongoose/Elves, you'd happily sacrifice a DRS for that.

[Quasim0ff]

Just because we play DRS doesn't mean that Perish is horrible. That argument is like saying playing any sort of sweeper that could hurt yourself too sucks. Obviously, you don't Perish if you're up on the board. If you don't have a DRS out or yours has gotten killed off (more likely), Perish is just great. If it's the choice between Perishing and dying to multiple Goyf/Mongoose/Elves, you'd happily sacrifice a DRS for that.

The thing is, in the match ups were Perish is good (elves, team 'Murika, RUG etc), they already are really grindy. Yes, we are fairly week to a resolved Goose, as well as a resolved goyf - Which is why Liliana is there. She is an house (She is even that good - Doesn't care about 'Murican grammar). These match ups are very grindy, and liliana is just that.

Besides - Both Elves and RUG is on a heavy decline. I might have to undust my german Untergang's eventually, if TNN gets banned (thus meaning miracles, and all these predators on RUG/Elves gets fairly weak again), but until then - I don't agree with cutting cards that make hard match ups (miracles, other TNN-predators) hard to deal with, because of beaters. We are not green, which means abrupt decay isn't likely for us (And honestly - if we wanted Decay, we are in the wrong thread, aren't we? No G in this BUR deck!) - Which against just makes for an argument for Spell Snare.

btw - Crushed 2 elves players today in a local legacy league 4-0 without perish. Matchup are a grind, so play it like that. If you want to, Electrickery is likely even better than perish vs elves, as that means our bolts should just be used for DRS.)

[Esper3k]

The thing is, in the match ups were Perish is good (elves, team 'Murika, RUG etc), they already are really grindy. Yes, we are fairly week to a resolved Goose, as well as a resolved goyf - Which is why Liliana is there. She is an house (She is even that good - Doesn't care about 'Murican grammar). These match ups are very grindy, and liliana is just that.

Besides - Both Elves and RUG is on a heavy decline. I might have to undust my german Untergang's eventually, if TNN gets banned (thus meaning miracles, and all these predators on RUG/Elves gets fairly weak again), but until then - I don't agree with cutting cards that make hard match ups (miracles, other TNN-predators) hard to deal with, because of beaters. We are not green, which means abrupt decay isn't likely for us (And honestly - if we wanted Decay, we are in the wrong thread, aren't we? No G in this BUR deck!) - Which against just makes for an argument for Spell Snare.

btw - Crushed 2 elves players today in a local legacy league 4-0 without perish. Matchup are a grind, so play it like that. If you want to, Electrickery is likely even better than perish vs elves, as that means our bolts should just be used for DRS.)

Yeah I was just suggesting cards to fight Tarmogoyfs per the above poster's issue. While Liliana is amazing, sometimes to need to just sweep all the big green guys away. That being said, I wouldn't play more than 1 Perish in the SB if I did.

Vs Elves I think the red removal would be even better than the black removal. Hell, just throwing more Forked Bolts at them seems fine.

Anyone been playing with Rakdos Charm at all? I keep wanting to make that card work...

[Quasim0ff]

Yeah I was just suggesting cards to fight Tarmogoyfs per the above poster's issue. While Liliana is amazing, sometimes to need to just sweep all the big green guys away. That being said, I wouldn't play more than 1 Perish in the SB if I did.

Vs Elves I think the red removal would be even better than the black removal. Hell, just throwing more Forked Bolts at them seems fine.

Anyone been playing with Rakdos Charm at all? I keep wanting to make that card work...

Played a list with 3 rakdos charm SB in a vintage Grixis Key+Vault-list, when it got spoiled. Wasn't impressed, and I highly doubt it's the right card for us.

I just want 2 spell snare, and have been using them as of late, as everything (from my POV) almost revolves around 2manacost (Only deck this is terrible against is SnT - Where it's always just force-fodder).

We might go back to play with Feuriges Abkommen again - Card is just a massive beating vs anything playing fair.

[mextremartini]

Played a list with 3 rakdos charm SB in a vintage Grixis Key+Vault-list, when it got spoiled. Wasn't impressed, and I highly doubt it's the right card for us.

I just want 2 spell snare, and have been using them as of late, as everything (from my POV) almost revolves around 2manacost (Only deck this is terrible against is SnT - Where it's always just force-fodder).

We might go back to play with Feuriges Abkommen again - Card is just a massive beating vs anything playing fair.

I've been using 1 rakdos charm as a split of artefact destruction and graveyard. Besides the charm, there was also a couple of one offs, like 1 graffdiggers cage and 1 ancient grudge!

[Quasim0ff]

I've been using 1 rakdos charm as a split of artefact destruction and graveyard. Besides the charm, there was also a couple of one offs, like 1 graffdiggers cage and 1 ancient grudge!
Usually counters and drs is enough vs graveyard, in legacy, I've found...

[Illusions]

Running the following list:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Watery Grave


Still working on the SB, though I know there'll definitely be some number of marsh casualties for TNN, and smash to smithereens in there. Lots of Miracles in my meta, it seems like a pretty painful matchup, at least for my take on the deck. Do we have anything that can shut down counterbalance once it's online? I was thinking of just destroying their tops to slow them down, and hoping to counter the counterbalance, though there's probably a better way.

The one of watery grave is in there for both budget reasons, and because I'm the kind of sadist who likes to wasteland his opponent, and then surgical extraction their non-basics to keep them off a particular colour. The watery grave is sub-optimal, but I justify it as retaining the ability to fetch a black source in the event that my underground seas get completely shafted. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after my underground seas. I've yet to be in a situation where watery grave is my only land, and I need to run out dazes, though I'm aware it's certainly a possibility.

Other than that, the list feels pretty solid. I love stifle, especially with DRS. Catching people out with it is amazing, and it helps protect us against wasteland. I had a maverick player exasperated today that I always seemed to have exactly what I needed, which I take as a compliment to the deck. I also like stifle because it makes stoneforge significantly weaker. When UWR drop a stoneforge into a stifle, they're facing a TNN deck that packs more TNNs than they do, more evasive sources of damage, and more burn. I also like to be able to stifle my opponent's wastelands.

Got in a bunch of casual games today, played against MUD, imperial painter, miracles, and maverick.

MUD: on the play, it was hard for him to hold on. I handed out a savage beating in the first game, and was caught against a first turn chalice in the second game, which led to an equally savage loss. Game three I got him to 6 with two DRS and a TNN, and he landed a blightsteel colossus that attacked with lightning greaves. I blocked with one DRS, and had to cast a brainstorm into his chalice in order to exile it from the yard and shoot him for 2. My turn I bashed in with TNN for 3, ran a bolt into chalice, then used it to shoot him for 2 with the second DRS.

Painter: Got him to 2, when he finally found his second combo piece, and went off. I was being pretty aggressive, since I figured I had one more turn. He had to exile SSG to get the necessary mana to win. Second game was a beat down, with a turn 2 TNN, a second in hand, a bolt, and a chain lightning in support. Third game he had to leave.

Junk Maverick: played a lot of games against this one, seemed pretty even, if slightly in our favour. He had to scoop numerous games because his mana base got shredded, which I'd then use as acceleration. The games he won were generally ones where I didn't draw enough land hate to keep him restricted, or he managed to keep me off black mana. If he got mom or KOTR online, it was pretty hard for me to get back in it. Also, swords for tombstalker is troublesome, but not the end of the world. My experience is that this is the kind of the deck that can come back from an aggressive delver start, so you need to apply some pretty relentless pressure and hit their mana hard. Stifle was an all-star.

Miracles: Game one I got a good start, only to eat a terminus. I dropped a delver only to have it eat a swords, and then a TNN which was promptly put to the bottom of my deck. Stoneforge managed to land a jitte, and from that point onwards I was strangled and devoured like a gazelle being eaten by a rock python. Game two I came out firing with backup counterspells, and managed to get there with a delver and a tombstalker. Game three he landed a turn two counterbalance. I managed to push a few threats through using some creative wastelanding, and inspired mental gymnastics, but terminus is a hell of a card.

As a bonus, I also played against a TNN bant deck the other week, I think it was Reid Duke's list? I managed to come out ahead, though I suspect it was more due to luck than anything else. I landed TNN earlier, and managed to keep him off his own threats long enough to scrape out a win. Second game his TNN suited up courtesy of stoneforge mystic and a misplay on my behalf, and I reaped the whirlwind. Third game I managed to get a TNN out, and then a second one after he'd managed to stick one of his own. I raced him with progenifish and bolts.

Anyway, it's always a pleasure playing this deck, it's hugely fun, and seems quite powerful in a way that's distinct from the other delver lists. Looking forward to taking it to a tournament.

[festeringGAB]

what do you think about this?

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13440&iddeck=98752

Inviato dal mio Nexus 5 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Qweerios]

Personally I find it difficult to play Stifle and Pierce with several other T1 plays such as DRS, Delver, and Ponder. 3-drops (Nemesis) make it even harder to squeeze in disruption. I also find Gitaxian Probe to be most relevant in a tempo shell, and I don't see where it would fit.

[mextremartini]

Personally I find it difficult to play Stifle and Pierce with several other T1 plays such as DRS, Delver, and Ponder. 3-drops (Nemesis) make it even harder to squeeze in disruption. I also find Gitaxian Probe to be most relevant in a tempo shell, and I don't see where it would fit.

Actually, I've been working in a Grixis List, more tempo orienteded, and it looks like an evolution of Canadian Thresh.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lighning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Forked Bolt

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

You've got the tempo play, but also have stabalized creatures as TNN compared to Goyf (graveyard weak, and swords as well)
Thus, with delver and DrS keeping our opponent in the early stage of the game, we are suppost to be the first one to resove TNN.
The list have been working out for me. What do you guys think?

[festeringGAB]

Personally I find it difficult to play Stifle and Pierce with several other T1 plays such as DRS, Delver, and Ponder. 3-drops (Nemesis) make it even harder to squeeze in disruption. I also find Gitaxian Probe to be most relevant in a tempo shell, and I don't see where it would fit.

mmmm..canadian is the best tempo deck and play mangoose, delver, ponder pierce stifle.... :///

[Qweerios]

mmmm..canadian is the best tempo deck and play mangoose, delver, ponder pierce stifle.... :///

Mongoose is a terrible T1 play for RUG. Its often better to bluff a Stifle than to drive out a Mongoose without threshold. RUG doesn't play cards like Nemesis and Liliana either so choosing between a T1 Delver, Ponder, or Stifle is a fairly simple choice compared to a T1 Stifle vs. Deathrite. I am not saying playing Stifle in Grixis is bad, but it is definitely something to think about when you have access to strong proactive disruption that RUG doesn't have.

[Ahtii]

I've been playing different types of grixis tempo for quite long time right now. Here is the list im playing and some reasoning behind it.

Printing of True-Name Nemesis affected this archetype a lot imo , not because True-Name would be strong in the list , but about how much the card demands for hate. Normally TNN hate hits Grixis _Really_ hard. (golgari charm , Engineered plague , Zealous Persecution.. etc.) True-Name Nemesis does not shine in the deck, like it would in Esper deathblade , but its still very strong and does what you expect it to do. I have taken the path to slow deck down a bit ,now I have tools to play control when needed. I have Strong invidual cards (Hymn to Tourach), instead of some narrow tempo choices (Cabal Therapy / Gitaxian Probe / Stiffle). Young pyromancer has not impressed me (unless you draw them in multiples), so I have decided to cut them.

After all the cutting , I have still left the core of delver decks in here. untouched four-off's (Delver , Brainstorm , Lightning Bolt , Daze , Wasteland)



Im playing atm:

Creatures:14
4xDelver of Secrets
4xDark Confidant
3xTrue-Name Nemesis
3xGrim Lavamancer

Spells:26
4xBrainstorm
4xLightning Bolt
4xForce of Will
4xDaze
2xSpell Pierce
4xPonder
4xHymn to Tourach

Lands:20
3xUnderground Sea
3xVolcanic Island
1xBadlands
1xCreeping Tar Pit
4xWasteland
4xBloodstained Mire
4xScalding Tarn

SB:(Current , still in progress)
2xPerish
3xEngineered Plague
1xPyroblast
2xSurgical Extraction
2xSpell Pierce
1xThoughtseize
1xUmezawa's Jitte
2xDiabolic Edict
1xSmash to Smithereens


About few card choices:

-Ponder: I want to find lands when i needed to , I want to find threats when needed to. I have Greedy costs in spells (hymn + True name) I get land screwed way less after cutting stiffle for ponder.

-Dark Confidant: playing 4x bob + 4x Fow seems sketchy. I agree. But to be honest , usually when I flip FoW to bob , im glad about it. (FoW is a strong card, especially if you have more cards than opponent!) Also , in fair matchups (where confidant damage would matter) It's sad , but he rarely survives to actually draw cards.
(4brainstorm+4Ponder+4Delver//fetchlands also helps to dodge damage)

-Hymn to Tourach: been testing Thoughtseize , Cabal therapy + Probe combo and Hymn. Young Pyromancer + Cabal therapy + Gitaxian Probe can be sweet. But i decided to cut pyromancer , for the same reason that im cutting Cabal therapy. it doesnt do enough on its own. I wanted to Play True-Name Nemesis in the deck, so my manacurve went bit up, I was in a spot where I needed to add few lands anyway , I took this chance to add Badlands , so i can also play Hymn to Tourach. Hymn is a Brutal spell when resolved.

-Grim Lavamancer: Kills lots of stuff , its not as good as Deathrite Shaman ,but it kills Deathrite Shaman. + I didnt want to add fourth colour to my deck.

-Creeping Tar Pit: This land has been great ! Won me so many games after terminus or other sweeper. (I wanted to add 2 more lands to normal 18 land base, for True-Name // Hymn to Tourach reasons. This taps for Black , and gives deck little bit of reach)

-Stiffle: Been playing Stiffle earlier. it does give free wins with wasteland. but it destroys me mentally everytime when the card is dead. Its just too situational , too bad when its bad. Also playing Ponder on the spot of Stiffle.

-Deathrite Shaman: I didn't want to add 4th colour, land base is twisted enough already I think. But I have to agree it might be wrong. It is really strong card. (also not playing it lets me sideboard Perish easier)

-Spell Pierce: This slot is most iffy in the deck at the moment. Counters most of the decks problem cards (bloodmoon , Liliana , Golgari charm, Terminus)

[Illusions]

Mongoose is a terrible T1 play for RUG. Its often better to bluff a Stifle than to drive out a Mongoose without threshold. RUG doesn't play cards like Nemesis and Liliana either so choosing between a T1 Delver, Ponder, or Stifle is a fairly simple choice compared to a T1 Stifle vs. Deathrite. I am not saying playing Stifle in Grixis is bad, but it is definitely something to think about when you have access to strong proactive disruption that RUG doesn't have.

I agree with this, but I like the utility stifle has against a lot of decks. I haven't tested hymn yet, but I think I'll try replacing the stifles with hymn to see how it plays. I can see hymn being completely backbreaking in a lot of situations, but the fact that it costs BB puts me off a bit. That, and it encourages you to tap out on your turn, which I don't really like. Still, I'm definitely willing to consider it, and I'll give it a go when I get the chance (probably next week).

[wcm8]

Lejay has been running the following lately on MODO. He is a player worth watching, as he tends to develop/perfect decks 'ahead of the curve' that influence the Legacy metagame (e.g. BUG Cascade, Mono Blue Omniscience).

20 Lands (4 Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Badlands, 1 Tropical, 4 Waste, 4 Delta, 4 Tarn)
4 Delver
4 DRS
3 TNN
2 Confidant
1 V Clique
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 Daze
4 Bolt
3 FoW
3 TSeize
2 IofKozilek
1 Fire//Ice
1 Diabolic Edict

SB:
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 V Clique
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Electrickery
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Smash to Smithereens

A few comments on the list: I love the creature configuration. 2 Confidants is about all that you would want, and the 3/1 split of TNN and Clique makes sense to me. Not entirely certain about the 1/1 split of Fire and Edict, there must be something potentially better here. I also wonder if Liliana could make an appearance. The SB looks pretty solid, but I could see dropping Smash to Smithereens for Ancient Grudge.

The lone Tropical Island is just there for eating the occasional creature with DRS. If you play Ancient Grudge in the SB, it allows for the Flashback.

I intend on giving this list a go at my next local event to see how it does in an "American meta".

Hymn to Tourach could arguably be run since this deck's manabase is very similar to Team America.

The advantages it has over existing tempo decks:
RUG -- the Grixis deck doesn't care about graveyard hate as much. It also seems slightly better against combo and control -- Confidant for gas, targeted discard for disruption (Stifle is not always so great). Also, DRS is simply the best one drop in Legacy.
BUG -- Bolt is arguably better removal than Abrupt Decay. Grixis loses access to Goyf, but still has a big advantage in creature matchups thanks to TNN, Lavamancer, etc.
UWR -- Discard is often better than Spell Pierce in a lot of matchups. As good as SFM is, I think Grixis has access to better creatures. StP is also a dead card in some matchups, whereas Bolt can at least go to the dome.
UR -- Again, access to Black is very relevant. Blood Moon decks aren't usually common enough to worry about dipping into 3 colors.

The biggest disadvantage is basically not having a good way of dealing with Enchantments. But aside from Counterbalance, there aren't too many that this deck is so worried about.

[Qweerios]

I don't really see the point of Badlands if the deck doesn't play any non-blue double costed spells. If you can support Hymn, I think you should play it over TS/IoK in any Delver deck. Switching out Tombstalkers for Bobs doesn't sound too good either and I don't think Clique is as good as Lily. Also, Grudge sounds infinitely better than Smash in the SB. Marsh Casualties sounds better than Electrickery as well.

[Quasim0ff]

I honestly like the Hymn+TStalker better than IoK/TS/Bob list. I simply think it's stronger, card by card. Also, with Drs, by T2 you can have pierce mana + hymn, which is just backbreaking!

However - Probe isn't a weak card. It's 1 for 1 with an upside, which is very strong. it makes it easier to know which approach to take, in the games.

[Quasim0ff]

Playing this in a local mixed format (legacy and modern) tournament.

Currently 5-0 with this list:

Threats (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells (26)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Spell Pierce
2 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Flusterstorm

[bob2008]

@ QuasimOff: I would like to hear about yor matches (and you final result of course...)

I am (once again) away from stifle an back on the dark side (Hymn).

My current list is very similar to yours. Except some sb-slots and 2 dismember instead of FB.

Unfortunately i do not have much time recently, but the few testing results i have are still very positive.

[Quasim0ff]

@ QuasimOff: I would like to hear about yor matches (and you final result of course...)

I am (once again) away from stifle an back on the dark side (Hymn).

My current list is very similar to yours. Except some sb-slots and 2 dismember instead of FB.

Unfortunately i do not have much time recently, but the few testing results i have are still very positive.

Ended 5-1 in the legacy portion of the tournament.

Lost to shardless bug, which seems like a regular shit matchup. Won vs Jund and MUD also. I had a force for his chalice in G1, and he was on double Tomb lands, so Delver made short work on him. Lost G2, where he just had t1 chalice (force) and also T1 Golem, T2 Worker, T3 Golem + Wurmcoil. G3 I had T1 delver, he had T1 chalice but I had force for his relevant threads, as I had Smash to Smithereens + Grudge in hand.

Beat Elves, Jund, MUD, UWR and some homebrew Bant list. (With NO)

Also, SB is -1 grudge +1 smash, obv.

[Qweerios]

I tried playing Bobs today instead of Tombstalker and Lily in the main. It worked out quite well. I lost to Team America 0-2 as I got Wastelanded into oblivion both games but I won against ANT, RUG, and mono blue Delver. I did get blown out by Golgari Charm but the combination of Hymn and Bob is just a great way to bury your opponent under masses of cards. I don't know if Bob is superior to Stalker/Lily but It does put me under lots of restrictions. I don't want to play Dismember anymore and FoW is a tough flip (it happened against RUG but I still won). Overall I'd like to get rid for double black spells altogether, it seems to be what gets against any Delver deck.

[Quasim0ff]

I tried playing Bobs today instead of Tombstalker and Lily in the main. It worked out quite well. I lost to Team America 0-2 as I got Wastelanded into oblivion both games but I won against ANT, RUG, and mono blue Delver. I did get blown out by Golgari Charm but the combination of Hymn and Bob is just a great way to bury your opponent under masses of cards. I don't know if Bob is superior to Stalker/Lily but It does put me under lots of restrictions. I don't want to play Dismember anymore and FoW is a tough flip (it happened against RUG but I still won). Overall I'd like to get rid for double black spells altogether, it seems to be what gets against any Delver deck.

I found Deathrite is the best, and most important, card in the deck. I have, myself, been really pleased with both TNN as well as Lilly, but I could w/o doubt see that Bob's are decent. I would however, just play the regular old Grixis deck with 4x Delver, 4x Bob, 4x Pyromancer, as that deck had an insane combomatchup. It's just real weak to golgari charm, that is, which is why I decided against playing it recently.

[Esper3k]

Against RUG, are you finding yourself having any problems getting to 3 mana consistently to cast the 4 three-drops you have (in the above list with TNN + Liliana)?

How do you feel about the Miracles matchup?

[Quasim0ff]

Against RUG, are you finding yourself having any problems getting to 3 mana consistently to cast the 4 three-drops you have (in the above list with TNN + Liliana)?

How do you feel about the Miracles matchup?
No, I haven't had trouble. They have to respect wasteland a lot more than I do, simply because of the fact that I also run 4x death rite as well as 2 lands more than they do. Respect their stifle, and you should be set.

it is, like in any tempo MU a grind. It very rarely comes down to just a T1 delver. Also, you have basically 5 MD "I win" cards, in TNN, TS and Lilly. TS is bigger than any removal they play (they've moved away from Dismember, recently). TNN is basically the reason RUG isn't very best DTB anymore. Lilly is a house. At least, she kills a goyf, which couldn't get burned out.


I think the Miracles MU isn't the best, which is why I'm playing cards like Null Rod and 2x Needle in the board. I think it's like 65-35 G1, due to no stifle for their miracles and 55-45/45-55 in their favor (depending on, if you are on the play or draw).

The, by far, worst MU is however Shardless BUG.

[Esper3k]

No, I haven't had trouble. They have to respect wasteland a lot more than I do, simply because of the fact that I also run 4x death rite as well as 2 lands more than they do. Respect their stifle, and you should be set.

it is, like in any tempo MU a grind. It very rarely comes down to just a T1 delver. Also, you have basically 5 MD "I win" cards, in TNN, TS and Lilly. TS is bigger than any removal they play (they've moved away from Dismember, recently). TNN is basically the reason RUG isn't very best DTB anymore. Lilly is a house. At least, she kills a goyf, which couldn't get burned out.


I think the Miracles MU isn't the best, which is why I'm playing cards like Null Rod and 2x Needle in the board. I think it's like 65-35 G1, due to no stifle for their miracles and 55-45/45-55 in their favor (depending on, if you are on the play or draw).

The, by far, worst MU is however Shardless BUG.

Do you ever feel like playing Submerge at all? I keep wanting to play it because being able to Submerge and not get Submerged back feels so sexy (especially when you're playing Tombstalkers).

I feel like the RUG matchup plays similarly to the BUG vs RUG matchup, which I've felt was rough due to their Stifles. However, with the removal in Grixis being 1 mana (vs generally 2 in BUG for Abrupt Decay), I think that may make a huge difference.

[Qweerios]

I found Deathrite is the best, and most important, card in the deck. I have, myself, been really pleased with both TNN as well as Lilly, but I could w/o doubt see that Bob's are decent. I would however, just play the regular old Grixis deck with 4x Delver, 4x Bob, 4x Pyromancer, as that deck had an insane combomatchup. It's just real weak to golgari charm, that is, which is why I decided against playing it recently.

You don't have to play that deck to appreciate Bob. Some TA lists play 2-3 Bobs instead of TNN/Stalker/Lily and they do great. A bob following an Hymn or after a T1 Delver has been plowed will most likely trigger multiple times and result in a win.

@Esper3k,

However, Bolt doesn't hit Goyf and Decay being uncounterable is a real boon in that matchup. Personally I think BUG (Team America) has a better matchup against RUG than we do. Although, if you play Tombstalker, it's a straight-up win against RUG in 95% of cases.

[Esper3k]

You don't have to play that deck to appreciate Bob. Some TA lists play 2-3 Bobs instead of TNN/Stalker/Lily and they do great. A bob following an Hymn or after a T1 Delver has been plowed will most likely trigger multiple times and result in a win.

@Esper3k,

However, Bolt doesn't hit Goyf and Decay being uncounterable is a real boon in that matchup. Personally I think BUG (Team America) has a better matchup against RUG than we do. Although, if you play Tombstalker, it's a straight-up win against RUG in 95% of cases.

Yeah, while we do have access to Liliana and stuff like Diabolic Edict / Perish if we want to deal with Tarmogoyf, I was just thinking about Submerge again. Although, TNN and Tombstalker both trump Goyf (TS usually trumps in this matchup barring a Planeswalker in the yard or something).

[Quasim0ff]

Do you ever feel like playing Submerge at all? I keep wanting to play it because being able to Submerge and not get Submerged back feels so sexy (especially when you're playing Tombstalkers).

I feel like the RUG matchup plays similarly to the BUG vs RUG matchup, which I've felt was rough due to their Stifles. However, with the removal in Grixis being 1 mana (vs generally 2 in BUG for Abrupt Decay), I think that may make a huge difference.

I'd likely actually find room for Abrupt Decay in the board before submerges. Submerges is just pure shit vs miracles, which is among the worst match ups we face.

I know, that Bob is easily played in BUG lists as well. However, with the want of playing TS in this particular deck, I just don't want to risk it. I find Lilly, TNN and TS to be the best threats. However, he might make the Miracles-MU a slight one, due to being CA which they have to respond to immediately.

I honestly found RUG to be a very favorable MU, as we have so many cards that are good vs them, and they have only a few which are backbreaking VS us. Also, our threats are impossible to answer (TS + TNN), and we run more lands so it's all about respecting their stifles and play accordingly. Also, waste their trops over volcanics.

[Qweerios]

I agree with quasimoff that rug is A favorable matchup. However, rug can always get their nut draws and prevent anything relevant from hitting the board.

If we play decays in the board, I dont think we should side them in against rug.

On an unrelated note, I have been testing decay instead of bolts with our delver/drs/nemesis/stalker shell and I am really liking it. As far as individual card choices go I preffer both nemesis and stalker to goyf simply due to their higher resiliance and evasion.

The more I play this deck, the more I want mainboard lilianas and focus entirely on blue and black mana. Since I am forced to have green for drs, abrupt decay looks great.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[Quasim0ff]

I agree with quasimoff that rug is A favorable matchup. However, rug can always get their nut draws and prevent anything relevant from hitting the board.

If we play decays in the board, I dont think we should side them in against rug.

On an unrelated note, I have been testing decay instead of bolts with our delver/drs/nemesis/stalker shell and I am really liking it. As far as individual card choices go I preffer both nemesis and stalker to goyf simply due to their higher resiliance and evasion.

The more I play this deck, the more I want mainboard lilianas and focus entirely on blue and black mana. Since I am forced to have green for drs, abrupt decay looks great.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2
That just makes the deck BUG straight up, W/O Goyfs. People have experienced such lists before. I find bolt to be really nice, as it helps close out games + is actually castable vs stuff like Thalia etc. Decay is really hard to play, and almost straight up impossible if they play GQ+Arbiter.

I think that's whats so appealing about RUG. It can just crush any deck in the format, given the right draws.

I found 1 Liliana to be optimal in the MD, but being able to go up to 2 after SB in the games is correct I figured.

Personally toying with finding room for 1 or possible 2 stifles.

[Ahtii]

Thoughts on Grafdiggers over surgicals? What do you guys think about SB marsh casualties?

My sideboard is a mess at the moment. Do you have sideboard cards over/underperforming?

Grim Lavamancer has been awesome for me (Im afraid doesnt combo with tombstalker , and only available without it)

I started with 2 surgicals and 1 cage , felt like surgical is basicaly only good vs Loam. Most of the time , I would want more powerfull GY hate



Current list:
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 TNN
3 Bob

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze

4 Ponder
4 Hymn
1 Forked Bolt

1 Liliana

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground sea
2 Volcanic island
1 Badlands
1 Taiga

SB:
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge

[Esper3k]

Surgical also doubles as combo hate. Not good at stopping them initially, but against certain decks (liken Sneaky Show), after you stop or discard one of their combo pieces, Surgicaling it makes their life pretty hellish.

[Ahtii]

On the other hand Grafdigger's Cage doubles as hate VS elves (Zenith + Natural Order + Fetch land Dryad Arbor)

[Esper3k]

On the other hand Grafdigger's Cage doubles as hate VS elves (Zenith + Natural Order + Fetch land Dryad Arbor)

Agreed. They both have different applications, which is why I personally prefer a split between the two.

[Illusions]

So I tested out hymn in place of stifle, and found that 19 land wasn't enough to reliably cast the card on turn 2. I didn't want to cut a counterspell to add in an extra land, so I tested out thoughtseize instead, even though I don't think it's necessarily what a tempo deck wants to be doing. That said, I'm a convert, if only because it makes the miracles matchup a bit better, and you can still wreck patriot delver by forcing them to discard their equipment. It's performed well enough that I'm thinking of including the full playset, though I'm not sure what to cut just yet. My list for reference:

4 Delver
4 DRS
3 TNN
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Thoughtseize

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

It feels pretty consistent the way it is at the moment, though I can understand choosing forked lightning over chain lightning.

[Ahtii]

Played 61 man tournament today ! Went 3-3. Deck was wonderfull , I did few mistakes that cost me games. Played against Reanimator (lost 2-1) , Bug Landstill (won 2-0) , Junk Loam deck (won 2-0) , Death and Taxes (lost 2-1 after huge mistake with upkeep triggers that cost me the game) , Elves (lost 2-0) , Maveric (won 2-1)

My list was:

3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Hymn to tourach
4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod

Deck was really good. If I could go again , I would go with exact same 75 (Maybe 1 more Liliana from the board.. Just like Quasimoff said) Sadly I Played Poorly in games 4 and 5 (Death and Taxes + Elves) The deck really got playable matchup against those , and I even drew well , just made mistakes myself.

[CabalTherapy]

I wonder why this deck hasn't a proper primer or something like a wider introductory post, since it really looks solid and could be moved easily to the Established Decks forum.
I like the color constellation of this tempo deck and also wonder if DRS is an obligatory element of it? (= me new to Grixis Delver)

[Quasim0ff]

I wonder why this deck hasn't a proper primer or something like a wider introductory post, since it really looks solid and could be moved easily to the Established Decks forum.
I like the color constellation of this tempo deck and also wonder if DRS is an obligatory element of it? (= me new to Grixis Delver)

DRS is easily the best card in the deck.

[DarthVicious]

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Thoughtseize
2 Sinkhole

4 Underground Sea
4 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland


4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Sinkhole
2 Extirpate
2 Chain Lightning
2 Perish



The version I've been testing. Still fidgeting around the counter spells between Forces and Pierces, maybe some Hymns, maybe more burn.

[CabalTherapy]

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Thoughtseize
2 Sinkhole

4 Underground Sea
4 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland


4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Sinkhole
2 Extirpate
2 Chain Lightning
2 Perish



The version I've been testing. Still fidgeting around the counter spells between Forces and Pierces, maybe some Hymns, maybe more burn.

As far as I can contribute to the discussion here, I would try to build the creature base as evasion-heavy as possible. = DRS, Delver, Stalker, TNN
I think they give this deck an edge in comparison to Canadian, UWR, TA, where Tarmo, Snappy, Mystic etc. stay on the ground.
Also, I suggest that Grixis Tempo without Confidant and Snappy is stronger than then Midrange variant with Lilliana, therefore I would run things as aggressive as possible.
However, I am new to Grixis since I want to establish this as my second competitive deck apart from my pet deck ANT (Burn, Dregde, SI and UWR have fallen out of my favor).
I am currently testing 2 TNN, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Delver, 4 DRS and 2 Dismember/1 Forked Bolt in the slots of Chain Lightning but I guess the Lightning is more versatile.

But from what I know, I would definitely run Hymn over Stifle for maximum destruction. :cool:

[Ahtii]

DarthVicious

Your decklist made me wonder couple of things:

First you are playing 20 lands , with curve topping to 2cmc (edit:snapcaster is 3-4 ok). You have 4 badlands + 4 daze. Your opponents are also playing wasteland!
Imo that landbase is bit sketchy.

I understand that Grim Lavamancer is crazy good at the moment, I tried playing it in the main also. When its good , its totally awesome, but I personally (like many others) came to conclusion that Deathrite Shaman is most of the time still better. I play Lavamancer in sideboard , and im glad its there! Have you tried Deathrite?

True-Name Nemesis? Everyone is packing their decks with TNN hate. #engineeredplague#humanwizardstribal#1toughnessftw. Also Golgari charms , zealous persecutions , Even Edict efects hit you really hard!
Spy kids lists are playing Young pyromancer to migitate Edict efects and Liliana, those are bad for you also. You take all the damage from TNN hate , yet you are not even playing it!!
True-Name Nemesis would give you loads free games i think. Also it gives you an reasonable out to resolved tarmogoyf.


Sinkhole? Its cool card! I love it and I would definately love for it to work. But Team America cutted sinkholes since they do nothing but give opponent tempo advantage when they draw lands.
I Have tried playing UBx delver variants with sinkhole + Stifle + Snapcaster. Its cool way to steal game, but does so little in some matchups. I Feel like hymn to tourach has stronger impact on game than Sinkhole almost always , Sinkhole can be better topdeck in grindy games though. Do you lose much games where opponents just draw lands? and your sinkholes do nothing? I definately did.

[DarthVicious]

DarthVicious

Your decklist made me wonder couple of things:

First you are playing 20 lands , with curve topping to 2cmc (edit:snapcaster is 3-4 ok). You have 4 badlands + 4 daze. Your opponents are also playing wasteland!
Imo that landbase is bit sketchy.

I understand that Grim Lavamancer is crazy good at the moment, I tried playing it in the main also. When its good , its totally awesome, but I personally (like many others) came to conclusion that Deathrite Shaman is most of the time still better. I play Lavamancer in sideboard , and im glad its there! Have you tried Deathrite?

True-Name Nemesis? Everyone is packing their decks with TNN hate. #engineeredplague#humanwizardstribal#1toughnessftw. Also Golgari charms , zealous persecutions , Even Edict efects hit you really hard!
Spy kids lists are playing Young pyromancer to migitate Edict efects and Liliana, those are bad for you also. You take all the damage from TNN hate , yet you are not even playing it!!
True-Name Nemesis would give you loads free games i think. Also it gives you an reasonable out to resolved tarmogoyf.


Sinkhole? Its cool card! I love it and I would definately love for it to work. But Team America cutted sinkholes since they do nothing but give opponent tempo advantage when they draw lands.
I Have tried playing UBx delver variants with sinkhole + Stifle + Snapcaster. Its cool way to steal game, but does so little in some matchups. I Feel like hymn to tourach has stronger impact on game than Sinkhole almost always , Sinkhole can be better topdeck in grindy games though. Do you lose much games where opponents just draw lands? and your sinkholes do nothing? I definately did.

I cut the Snapcasters for Terminate so I have an out to >3 toughness. I'd like it to be one mana, but we can't run StP in every deck. I thought about Deathmark or something black, idk... Suggestions other than Disfigure are welcome.

Sinkholes are 2 main, 2 side because they're not for every matchup. And my play set is Beta...

The creatures are really my biggest issue. Bob is just too good to cut IMO, that's the direction I'd really like to go. I want a 4th. 4 Delver is a no-brainer. Lavamancer I could probably move one to the side... I like Snapcaster a lot. Tombstalker I could run as a 1-2 of, but more than that makes Lavamancer/Snapcaster into weaksauce. I have Deathrites, and could run them, but I was testing other things at the time. I was considering Herald of Torment, or Serendib Efreet, something like that.

Edit: Also, the land. I have full play sets of every black dual and every black fetch. Beyond that, I only have 2 Tundra... Hence the reason for no TNN, and the reason I really hate Daze.

[DarthVicious]

As far as I can contribute to the discussion here, I would try to build the creature base as evasion-heavy as possible. = DRS, Delver, Stalker, TNN
I think they give this deck an edge in comparison to Canadian, UWR, TA, where Tarmo, Snappy, Mystic etc. stay on the ground.
Also, I suggest that Grixis Tempo without Confidant and Snappy is stronger than then Midrange variant with Lilliana, therefore I would run things as aggressive as possible.
However, I am new to Grixis since I want to establish this as my second competitive deck apart from my pet deck ANT (Burn, Dregde, SI and UWR have fallen out of my favor).
I am currently testing 2 TNN, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Delver, 4 DRS and 2 Dismember/1 Forked Bolt in the slots of Chain Lightning but I guess the Lightning is more versatile.

But from what I know, I would definitely run Hymn over Stifle for maximum destruction. :cool:

I'll never stop running SI. Ever.

[Illusions]

So has anyone tested out Dack Fayden? Also, does anyone want to put together a primer to help separate this deck from the young pyro gitaxian probe version running the same colours? The deck could use a name -- I'd suggest The Mexican to play off Team America and Canadian Thresh, Patriot, etc. -- but that's probably up to whoever puts the primer together.

[CabalTherapy]

So has anyone tested out Dack Fayden? Also, does anyone want to put together a primer to help separate this deck from the young pyro gitaxian probe version running the same colours? The deck could use a name -- I'd suggest The Mexican to play off Team America and Canadian Thresh, Patriot, etc. -- but that's probably up to whoever puts the primer together.

I could image myself writing something about this deck. But I guess my lack of experience with it hinders me from doing it. But certainly, it would be nice to have something like a primer for this thread.

[Ahtii]

I would love to write about the deck really. I play the deck almost everyday on cockatrice, so I have played it a LOT... But theres few problems in my mind.
The main problem that is holding me back is my lack of tournament experience with the deck. (lack of legacy events in Finland) Also I dont have top: 8s in Sanctioned Tournaments I have played with this deck. Would you guys feel uncomfortable with it?

Second. I dont use English nearly enough. Im not 100% comfortable with my english writing skills (text can be bit clunky // full of typos)

Also as developing the deck , I know only things that influenced in my choices. So writing about the history of deck is bit hard. (I copied eric rills delver/pyromancer/confidant list with cabal therapys. TNN and Deathrite got printed , everyone hated TNN with golgari charms etc and pyromancer started to look less appealing --> went from there... Found this thread and liked Quasimoff's list a lot. Tried that list and stole few ideas to my own.) I Dont know how you guys got your hands into Grixis tempo, Grixis delver , Bolt Bug or what ever you want to call it. My deck is named Grixis Green in cockatrice :D

Last... Im not even totally sure what you guys think this deck is supposed to run? Do you guys think that the core of the deck is ready ? Or do we just list in all the cards people have suggested in the thread? What is the stock version of this deck in your minds? Do we rule out the Young Pyromancer//Gitaxian Probe// Cabal therapy package since it evolved into that spy kids deck?
Imo if we want own primer to this deck , the core is something like this:


4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
2-4 True-Name Nemesis
2-4 Flex creature slot (Dark confidant,Tombstalker, vendilion Clique, Grim lavamancer or snapcaster mage)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Discard spells (Hymn to tourach , Inquisition of kozilek // Thoughtseize)
0-2 Flex Slots for spells like Forked bolt, Chain Lightning , Liliana Of the Veil , extra discard spells or counters.

20 lands with 4 Wasteland and 1 dual splashing Green
(My land build is 4 waste , 4 ugsea , 2 volcanic , 1 badlands , 1 taiga , 8 fetch) Running Bayou or Tropical over Taiga might be correct, Im planning to stay with the taiga and Scalding Tarns + Bloodstained mires.

Imo we could gather just small stories about your contribution, experience and history with the deck in this thread? Just for the help of whoever writes the primer?(I volunteer to try if nobody else wants to do it) since theres not much data to use yet (sample decklists etc) Also would be just nice to hear what made you guys pick grixis tempo over other , more proven legacy decks.

[CabalTherapy]

I would love to write about the deck really. I play the deck almost everyday on cockatrice, so I have played it a LOT... But theres few problems in my mind.
The main problem that is holding me back is my lack of tournament experience with the deck. (lack of legacy events in Finland) Also I dont have top: 8s in Sanctioned Tournaments I have played with this deck. Would you guys feel uncomfortable with it?

Second. I dont use English nearly enough. Im not 100% comfortable with my english writing skills (text can be bit clunky // full of typos)

Also as developing the deck , I know only things that influenced in my choices. So writing about the history of deck is bit hard. (I copied eric rills delver/pyromancer/confidant list with cabal therapys. TNN and Deathrite got printed , everyone hated TNN with golgari charms etc and pyromancer started to look less appealing --> went from there... Found this thread and liked Quasimoff's list a lot. Tried that list and stole few ideas to my own.) I Dont know how you guys got your hands into Grixis tempo, Grixis delver , Bolt Bug or what ever you want to call it. My deck is named Grixis Green in cockatrice :D

Last... Im not even totally sure what you guys think this deck is supposed to run? Do you guys think that the core of the deck is ready ? Or do we just list in all the cards people have suggested in the thread? What is the stock version of this deck in your minds? Do we rule out the Young Pyromancer//Gitaxian Probe// Cabal therapy package since it evolved into that spy kids deck?
Imo if we want own primer to this deck , the core is something like this:


4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
2-4 True-Name Nemesis
2-4 Flex creature slot (Dark confidant,Tombstalker, vendilion Clique, Grim lavamancer or snapcaster mage)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Discard spells (Hymn to tourach , Inquisition of kozilek // Thoughtseize)
0-2 Flex Slots for spells like Forked bolt, Chain Lightning , Liliana Of the Veil , extra discard spells or counters.

20 lands with 4 Wasteland and 1 dual splashing Green
(My land build is 4 waste , 4 ugsea , 2 volcanic , 1 badlands , 1 taiga , 8 fetch) Running Bayou or Tropical over Taiga might be correct, Im planning to stay with the taiga and Scalding Tarns + Bloodstained mires.

Imo we could gather just small stories about your contribution, experience and history with the deck in this thread? Just for the help of whoever writes the primer?(I volunteer to try if nobody else wants to do it) since theres not much data to use yet (sample decklists etc) Also would be just nice to hear what made you guys pick grixis tempo over other , more proven legacy decks.

Hi mate,
I share your thoughts and also your core of the deck.
About the language: I guess, it really doesn't matter that much. The source is the international home for so many Legacy players, and English is used as a lingua franca all around the world. In that case, content > narrative methods and style. Go for it. This deck clearly deserves more attention. It is my tempo deck of choice and it would be cool to have a proper primer on this one in the Established Decks forum.

My proposition would be to make a short introduction to this deck (keeping the name simple "Grixis Delver" or maybe "UBr Tempo", whatever) while establishing the core (something like you mentioned above) without releasing a descriptive deckslist like in the TES thread for example. In addition, one could mention other possibilities for the main deck and a list of proven SB cards.

[Illusions]

I would love to write about the deck really. I play the deck almost everyday on cockatrice, so I have played it a LOT... But theres few problems in my mind.
The main problem that is holding me back is my lack of tournament experience with the deck. (lack of legacy events in Finland) Also I dont have top: 8s in Sanctioned Tournaments I have played with this deck. Would you guys feel uncomfortable with it?

Second. I dont use English nearly enough. Im not 100% comfortable with my english writing skills (text can be bit clunky // full of typos)

Also as developing the deck , I know only things that influenced in my choices. So writing about the history of deck is bit hard. (I copied eric rills delver/pyromancer/confidant list with cabal therapys. TNN and Deathrite got printed , everyone hated TNN with golgari charms etc and pyromancer started to look less appealing --> went from there... Found this thread and liked Quasimoff's list a lot. Tried that list and stole few ideas to my own.) I Dont know how you guys got your hands into Grixis tempo, Grixis delver , Bolt Bug or what ever you want to call it. My deck is named Grixis Green in cockatrice :D

Last... Im not even totally sure what you guys think this deck is supposed to run? Do you guys think that the core of the deck is ready ? Or do we just list in all the cards people have suggested in the thread? What is the stock version of this deck in your minds? Do we rule out the Young Pyromancer//Gitaxian Probe// Cabal therapy package since it evolved into that spy kids deck?
Imo if we want own primer to this deck , the core is something like this:


4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
2-4 True-Name Nemesis
2-4 Flex creature slot (Dark confidant,Tombstalker, vendilion Clique, Grim lavamancer or snapcaster mage)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Discard spells (Hymn to tourach , Inquisition of kozilek // Thoughtseize)
0-2 Flex Slots for spells like Forked bolt, Chain Lightning , Liliana Of the Veil , extra discard spells or counters.

20 lands with 4 Wasteland and 1 dual splashing Green
(My land build is 4 waste , 4 ugsea , 2 volcanic , 1 badlands , 1 taiga , 8 fetch) Running Bayou or Tropical over Taiga might be correct, Im planning to stay with the taiga and Scalding Tarns + Bloodstained mires.

Imo we could gather just small stories about your contribution, experience and history with the deck in this thread? Just for the help of whoever writes the primer?(I volunteer to try if nobody else wants to do it) since theres not much data to use yet (sample decklists etc) Also would be just nice to hear what made you guys pick grixis tempo over other , more proven legacy decks.

That more or less seems like the shell most people here are using. I might be a bit biased, but it seems like most of the stronger reports are coming from the TS/TNN variant. It's also possible to get away with 19 lands (I run 19, for example), though I think if you're using Hymn, 20 is better.

In terms of advantages over other delver decks, every threat is evasive, and capable of closing the game out if need be. You get access to DRS, which speeds you up in the early game, and makes you more resilient to land hate. You get lightning bolt to close games out, and hand destruction to improve your disruption suite. Also, this is the fastest deck running TNN, and is as fast as Team America in terms of getting Lily out. Faster when you consider your burn suite.

In terms of weaknesses, the deck can struggle against fatties and goyfs if you don't have a TNN on the board, or aren't running dismember main. It also suffers the same problem as other tempo decks in that it's not as strong in the late game. If you can get a strong start, few decks will be able to keep up, but the longer the game goes on, the more difficult it is to exploit those small gaps in tempo.

I like bolt BUG and grixis green :). The problem with calling the deck grixis delver or grixis tempo is that there's already the YP/git probe/therapy/bob version, with its own thread over on MTGS, and that deck is also called grixis delver. I think the two decks are different enough to warrant being called different things, though it doesn't particularly bother me either way.

[Esper3k]

My vote is for a name like Team Asia (you know, the next up and coming world power) to trollolol people :)

[thecrav]

My vote is for a name like Team Asia (you know, the next up and coming world power) to trollolol people :)

Blue, Red, and Black all in Asia? I think I know what to name it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Flag_of_South_Korea.svg/900px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png

[Ahtii]

I Tried to write something! I feel like im not a writer person xD

[Esper3k]

In the sample manabase you put up, it needs to be running Scalding Tarn instead of Bloodstained Mire since Mire can't find Tropical Island.

[meffeo]

I stumbled upon this deck after seeing that all my efforts on casting Touraches were nullified by that powerful delve spell known as Dig Through Time; rest until the next banlist, BUG Delver.

After chatting with some friends, we thought that the following Tempo list is (at least) worth testing:

Creatures (13)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Spells (29)

1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Murderous Cut
4 Force of Will

Lands (18)

1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)

1 Electrickery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Submerge

What do you Sourcers think? It'd be nice to hear your thoughts about it.

[Qweerios]

I think Dismember is better than Murderous Cut in general because it can be used on T1 and T2 against decks like DnT, Elves, and Delver decks.

Tombstalker also beats Tasigur in this type of deck because Goyf is a big threat to your gameplan and flying is extremely relevant.

I would advise against Stifle because Grixis doesn't have the means to get lots of points of damage very quickly compared to, say, RUG. The strength of this color combination for Tempo lies in its ability to reach. Spell Snare is what I would suggest because the most potent spells against Grixis tend to be popular 2 mana spells like Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, Baleful Strix, Counterbalance (auto lose pre-board?), Chalice, etc... Also, if you want to abuse Pyromancer to the fullest, you should stay away from situational reactive spells. If anything, Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy would fit better.

2 Underground Seas is not enough to support 4 DRS and a couple of black cards here and there. Play at least 3 copies.

I suggest:

-1 Murderous Cut, +1 Dismember
-1 Tasigur, +1 Tombstalker
-4 Stifle, +1 Underground Sea(19 lands), +2 Thoughtseize/Spell Snare, +1 Forked Bolt

[meffeo]

Thanks for your input.

Still sticking to the Stifle plan, what about something like:

-1 Force of Will, -1 Stifle
+2 Spell Snare

Even if I was more than often in the situation with a Pierce in hand facing a Goyf and with a Snare in hand facing a Jace...

I added the 19th land as USea and don't want to cut the singleton FBolt.


Edit:
Crap, they're 61. Have to cut probably the Stifle's playset.

[jrsthethird]

Can someone write a primer for this deck please? I'm returning to the format after a 4 year hiatus and picked up a non-Wasteland version of the 1st place deck to get back into it.

I used to play New Horizons and I really like the deck so far, but I'm still a little unsure about the format as a whole and especially sideboarding. I'm playing on MTGO, I don't have the $2500 it takes to get back into this game.

Here's the list I'm testing:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard:
2 Submerge
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique

This is almost a carbon copy of Noah Walker's #1 SCG Columbus list, with these changes:

Main: -4 Wasteland, +1 Volcanic Island, +1 Island, +1 Misty Rainforest, +1 Gitaxian Probe
SB: -1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Submerge

I get the feel of the deck. I don't think I'm making the best decisions yet, but that comes with time. I just goofed on a Brainstorm with Delver out; I could've stacked the deck to flip him but didn't. Noob mistake, but whatever. I'll get there. My main questions are pretty much metagame things; I haven't seen all the decks yet so I'm not 100% sure what someone's playing if I see a new card I'm not used to. That also comes with time. And, I'm terrible at sideboarding with it because I don't know exactly what cards are better than others in what matchups yet.

I also seem to never have a clue what to name with Therapy. It was always one of my favorite cards, and I always want to side it in, but when I have it in hand I don't play it because I don't know what the best card in the other deck is yet (situationally or overall). And it seems so good with Pyro and I haven't been able to do that yet.

I eventually want to get Wastelands and Stifles. I've seen lists with Stifle/Waste, Waste only, and neither. What are the pros/cons of each option?

Also, in comparing Noah's 1st place list with Brett Schmuckler's 4th place list, Brett ran Monastery Swiftspear instead of Deathrite Shaman. Also had a full set of Cabal Therapy split between main and SB, as well as a full set of Pyromancers instead of just 3. No Waste either. The play style differences aren't apparent to me yet (except I had a Badlands in my deck briefly and it was bad). I'm not looking at sideboard differences yet; that would be nice but I feel like I'm asking enough in this post.

Now that I'm done writing this (and that I FINALLY found the thread for this deck), I'll go back through it and read it. I'm sure some of my questions will be answered. That said, with two top 4 finishes in a big event, I hope we can get a Primer for this written and bump it into a more serious forum.

[hartigan]

Can someone write a primer for this deck please? I'm returning to the format after a 4 year hiatus and picked up a non-Wasteland version of the 1st place deck to get back into it.

Main: -4 Wasteland,

I also seem to never have a clue what to name with Therapy. It was always one of my favorite cards, and I always want to side it in, but when I have it in hand I don't play it because I don't know what the best card in the other deck is yet (situationally or overall). And it seems so good with Pyro and I haven't been able to do that yet.

Shouldn't really need too much of a primer as it's a Delver Tempo deck, cast more spells than your opponent to tempo them out, stop them from doing anything too back-breaking and win with your goodstuff threats. (3/2 fliers for 1, 5/5 fish for 1, 2/1 token machines, 3/1 untouchables, 1/2 planeswalkers etc.)

I know you said you were looking to pick them up but you should DEFINITELY pick up Wastelands, they allow for the most "broken" openings. Turn 1 DRS and Turn 2 Wasteland while still having two mana available to cast something like Young Pyromancer or Delver with Spell Pierce mana up is insane.

Therapy is a card that may be hard for you to cast if you are just returning to the format especially playing a fair deck. If you were playing combo you can sometimes get by just naming Force of Will to get your cards through but in this deck you want to be naming threats that can overpower yours or cards you can't beat. There are a lot of articles out there on Cabal Therapy naming I suggest Caleb Durward's article on Channel Fireball, it's titled "Therapy Session".

Also Gitaxian Probe is very helpful in tandem with Cabal Therapy ;)

[FANAttIC]

Noah won twice with his list. Pretty sure he is onto something.
DRS is a true one mana walker, I would stick with it instead of Swiftspear.

[hartigan]

Noah won twice with his list. Pretty sure he is onto something.
DRS is a true one mana walker, I would stick with it instead of Swiftspear.

The age of Swiftspear being better than most other 1 drops is over, definitely stick with Deathrite over Swiftspear... unless you're playing that version of Grixis Delver that is still trying to be UR Delver.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys, just bought into the "trying to be UR delver" version of Grixis delver for modo. Decided to finally hop on the brainstorm band wagon after 3 years of competitive legacy. How would you guys recommend altering the sideboard, if at all, for this new DRS version which is taking over? Maybe up the mainboard removal a little? Here is my list:


Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Gurmag Angler

Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Dig Through Time
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt

Lands: 17
4 Volanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Badlands

Sideboard:
2 Price of Progress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sudden Demise
1 Null Rod
1 Thoughtseize
1 Smash to Smithereens

[ironclad8690]

Just went 3-1 in a daily event using close to the list above.

Zombardment 2-0

Omnitell 2-0 (I even forgot to attack 1 turn in game 2 but it didn't matter)

Grixis Control 1-2

Sylvan Plug 2-1

[Zulabnar]

i took this list for testing:


1 tombstalker
2 snapcaster mage
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

Instants [20]
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt


Sorceries [8]
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Lands [18]
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

and went against a good fish player with UR monastery (so a very similar deckbuild with stifle and monastery and full set of dig)

the result was 2-2 on mainboard 2-3 sidein

All matches was very close, and wasteland more than once wins the game


My opinion is that snapcaster is too slow in this deck, 3 mana open are too much and flashbacking a bolt is normally the option. Aniway in this matchup is a 2x1 situation.
Tombstalker is enormous but BB in cc is too difficult to cast, i will try the zombiefish next
DRS are simply not so powerful, ok you eat graveyard, fix mana, and i win a match for a 2 life point gain, but i don't know if is the right choice. Monastery Swiftspear is a very nice card to consider in rush.

At the moment the manabase is very poor, DRS sometimes fix it but at turn one sometimes i prefer ponder/brainstorm/delver

The very question is the side, against delver decks i should love something lyke pyroclasm or maybe a bigger creature like goyf. Also snare works well but are 1 x 1

Maybe in green there is something that could help?

[Lormador]

Against other Delver decks I haven't had a lot of trouble due to having the same DRS advantage as BUG along with the quick Lightning Bolts. Pyromancer can go wide around Goyf and Goose. Goyf can be a quick death without a Peezy though, so I've got a 1 of Mind Harness that can come in against decks playing him (including RUG). TNN will be good here if you run him. Gitaxian Probe has been really helpful too, knowing whether they have the Daze or Pierce or Stifle can really bring a turn together.

I'm not sure if Surgical Extraction or Life from the Loam can be brought in here. Against Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay, Eric Rill's old Spy Kids list played a 1 of Mizzium Skin, and I think that's quite brilliant.

[ironclad8690]

Tournament Report: MTGO Daily Event

6/26/2015

Played the GP Kyoto list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

1 Cabal Therapy

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Price of Progress
2 Submerge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard breakdown:
4 Counterspells
2 Graveyard/Combo Hate
2 Discard
2 Burn
2 Anti-Green
2 Artifact Hate
1 Catch-all


BURG Delver: 0-2

Game 1: Opp casts early delver, and I don't have any removal. He was able to resolve DRS and dig through time and cantrip into multiple burn spells at 2 life while I bricked, and he lethal'ed me.

Game 2: I mull and have to keep a 2 bolt 3 land 1 dig through time hand. He protects his 2nd pyromancer and I fall way behind on board. He establishes another pyromancer and things really get bad while he has cantrips and gas while I have nothing.

Recomendation: Add an Electrickery to the sideboard for Young Pyromancer mirror matches. Don't board in Submerge here, they can just not play forests. Also debatable worth boarding in flusterstorm.

Burn: 2-1

Game 1: He drew too many creatures, and I probed him to generate more tokens. I got at too low life, and he bolted me out.

Game 2: I have the turn 1 swiftspear turn 3 delver bunch of countermagic nut draw.

Game 3: I am able to barely win off the back of cantripping well into the removal i needed. I had to trade an early pyromancer for an eidolon of the great revel, but I am confident it won me the game.

MUD: 2-1

Game 1: He draws 3 glimmerposts in the top 13 cards of his library. I almost get there, but sundering titan and lightning greaves put an end to my plan.

Game 2: Swiftspear backed by Counterspells get there

Game 3: He dies to his own inconsistencies after I bolt his lodestone and drop a null rod after he plays a metalworker. I forked bolt the metalworker later anyways to get a prowess trigger, he drops a worthless staff of domination, and I FOW the chalice for 1 he plays later. He scoops after that depsite playing several glimmerposts.

Omnitell: 2-0

Game 1: Fast clock from delver and pyromancer with just enough countermagic to stop his turn 3 show and tell.

Game 2: 3 Swiftspears by turn 3, force backup pithing dig through time and cantripping into dazes let me win by turn 4. He pyroclasmed turn 3, but I dazed (even if he countered back that puts them out of range, god prowess is broken sometimes).

---

I think I will play a more UR focused version moving forward with 7 maindeck removal spells because it fits my playstyle. I really do like tasigur though, and cabal therapy does help the combo matchups a lot. Goal is to make room for Electrickery in the SB.

[ironclad8690]

Created a new primer here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-Grixis-Tempo&p=891217#post891217