[Deck] Nausea - Tendrils for the win.

[MasterBlaster]

What did you take out of the deck for the Infernal Tutors?

[Evil Roopey]

What did you take out of the deck for the Infernal Tutors?

Whisper is what I cut. I also cut 1 Sleight for 1 Meditate so that I actually have something worth tutoring for.

[Ebinsugewa]

Whisper is what I cut. I also cut 1 Sleight for 1 Meditate so that I actually have something worth tutoring for.

Besides this, any sideboard changes? Also, I think we should probably update the front page with some of this Infernal Tutor business, even if it's only in the testing phase. The deck is going to play a lot differently than the current list, I think.

[Windux]

Why nobody though about Dark Confidant?
Just cut the Blue out of the Main together with the Sleigh of Hands, put another Bayou in and 3 Confidants?
Yeah of course "But we want to kill Round 1-3" but thats not everytime that, what the deck does.
Diminishing Dreams: I allways cast it with Burning Wish-> responde crush LED for Blue. So that would be no problem imo.
And what can the Confidant reveal? At worst Tendrils, but we are only playing 3:
0cc = 16
1cc = 18
2cc = 20
3cc = 0
4cc = 3

"But what is, when I draw 1 in the combo? Who want that?"
But its also often the case, that you draw a Sleigh of Hand (SoH), but no blue Mana or the opinion to use the Lotus Petal for SoH or for another better card...I allways choose the better card.

Depending from the List on page 1, I would try this changes

-4 Sleigh of Hands
-3 Nights Whisper
+4 infernal Tutor (you all know, how broken this thing is in this deck, or?)
+3 Dark Confidant

[Evenpence]

Dark Confidant seems good - Infernal Contract seems like it would be the suck in this deck though. Helms don't help Contract out at all - Night's Whisper is just better, especially if you stall out on one (or multiple!) contracts.

[Nightmare]

Dark Confidant seems good - Infernal Contract seems like it would be the suck in this deck though. Helms don't help Contract out at all - Night's Whisper is just better, especially if you stall out on one (or multiple!) contracts.He's discussing Infernal Tutor, not Infernal Contract.

[GreenOne]

I find confidant useful only G2 vs slow control decks: it needs 2 turn to give you card advantage and G1 confidant would attract all the forms of creature hate (otherwise useless G1). G2 the opponent is gonna side out the critter hate so confidant might be a good plan.

However, i'm really not sold on Confidant even in SB. I find it too slow to give card advantage, it doesn't cantrip when going off and needs 2 cards to be played first turn, the only turn in which you really wanna play it (you can't do something like land and confidant, but something like land Lotus ->Confidant).

[Nightmare]

I disagree. There is something to be said about the fact that every time you swing with Bob, you need one less spell to get lethal Tendrils. I played IGG last week and this was giant vs control. I sat behind Defense Grids and swung with Bob until I found enough gas to go off, and at that point only needed a storm of 5.

[Bane of the Living]

Bob is good but hes just too slow for Nausea guys. The difference between this deck and IGGy or even Salvagers is its much faster. Being faster allows us to race combo hate cards such as Rule of Law or Trinisphere. If we add bob we increase consistancy but sacrifice alot of speed. I wouldnt do it.

Nausea is the sacrifice of consistancy for speed. Nauseous speed.

Playtest with Infernal Tutor.. It will fill the gap in the deck.

[Nightmare]

That isn't the point though, Bane. You wouldn't be bringing Confidant in against Stax or Wombat. The idea is to bring him in against matchups where blazing speed won't win the game, IE: G2 vs Gro on the draw, etc. Sometimes speed isn't the best tactic, and in those matchups, Bob really shines.

[Windux]

The thing is, in my opinion, SoH seems to be the worst card in the deck.
I really often have the situation that im drawing this card, without a direct source of blue mana. If I play Land Grand, my first target is Bayou and my 2nd is Taiga.
But you can allways play Confidant. And yes, I totally would "discard" first Turn Lotus Petal or Dark Ritual for First Turn Confidant against the most Decks.
I mean, its better to get Confidant countered, then a Land Grant or a Tutor.

[Bane of the Living]

That isn't the point though, Bane. You wouldn't be bringing Confidant in against Stax or Wombat. The idea is to bring him in against matchups where blazing speed won't win the game, IE: G2 vs Gro on the draw, etc. Sometimes speed isn't the best tactic, and in those matchups, Bob really shines.

Ok so why wouldnt I want blazing speed against that deck? I usually want to win before gro has the mana to cast Counterspell. Playing around Daze, and through FoW. Meddling Mage can be raced similarly. Id rather run more discard to fight against Thresh. Duress would take out enemy hate cards yet can be grabbed with Burning Wish as well. Not bastardizing the sideboard with Bob. I cant think of any other matchups Id want him in. Confidant doesnt help with Meddling Mage anyways..

Ive been bringing in 3 Xantid Swarm, 3 Duress against Thresh. With good results.

[GreenOne]

The thing is, in my opinion, SoH seems to be the worst card in the deck.
I really often have the situation that im drawing this card, without a direct source of blue mana. If I play Land Grand, my first target is Bayou and my 2nd is Taiga.
But you can allways play Confidant. And yes, I totally would "discard" first Turn Lotus Petal or Dark Ritual for First Turn Confidant against the most Decks.
I mean, its better to get Confidant countered, then a Land Grant or a Tutor.

The fact is they won't counter it, they'll Plow or Fire/ice or bold or Pyroclasm or anything else it. This way they're gonna take advantage of an otherwise dead card in their hand. Not only, they're also doing a 2 for 1!
The field is well prepared to deal with a X/1 creature from the first turn (read lackey) this is why confidant might only find its place in the sideboard (when people remove maindeck creature hate).
Sleight of hand might be not the best card in the deck, but i find MD confidants much worse. If you want something on-color (black) you can try to run Brain Pry even if seems playable only with a helm in play: noone tested it.

[Vimes]

I've not been an avid Nausea player, but when the entire idea of a deck is blazing speed, talking about not going for speedy wins is kind of stupid in my opinion. Gro will make its hand better. You will not. Confidant will take time to work. Gro will kill it or just not care because it has enough counters in hand and enough mana to cast them since you've given them all that time. While I don't feel Confidant's potential has been fully realized in Legacy, fast combo and slow draw engines do not mix.

[Rambo]

Confidant makes the deck more consistent but slower. Its great in the sb as grow boards out plows against you and if they counter it its one last counter for your helm. But considering how this deck wants to race gobbs and such, i think this confidant has a better place in TJS.

[troopatroop]

Dark Confidant makes the opponents critter removal good. That, against Rifter and Gro, is bad news. If you want to play the deck slower, it shouldn't be a matter of changing the deck, but changing your play.

[Bane of the Living]

If you're really 'hellbent' on putting Confidant in the deck I'd take out a couple of sideboard cards and just bring him in game 2 when your opponent takes out their swords.

The thing is, what exactly is Bob going to improve? Not Rifter because they won't side out Lightning Rift. Against gro they still have counters, and against any other mid range control deck I'll assume they can still deal with the 2/1.

I guess my point is wtf are we talking about Bob?

What about Bob?

[MasterBlaster]

What about Bob?
LOL... I haven't seen that movie since I was like ten.

Anyways if you want to have a creature in the sideboard to help out when they side out creature hate I think Phyrexian Negator would be a better choice.(But still a bad idea)

[Evenpence]

It seems the talk has been alot about speed recently.

A few questions:

1) What's the percentages of kills on goldfishes? Is your first turn kill like 10%, second turn 35%, third turn 45%, fourth-x turn 20%? Something like that?

2) What matchups are improved with less disruption and more speed?

3) What matchups are improved with disruption?

4) Are there any other pieces of disruption that can be considered aside from counterspell disruption? For instance, Engineered Plague against Goblins, etc.

[Evil Roopey]

It seems the talk has been alot about speed recently.

A few questions:

1) What's the percentages of kills on goldfishes? Is your first turn kill like 10%, second turn 35%, third turn 45%, fourth-x turn 20%? Something like that?

2) What matchups are improved with less disruption and more speed?

3) What matchups are improved with disruption?

4) Are there any other pieces of disruption that can be considered aside from counterspell disruption? For instance, Engineered Plague against Goblins, etc.

I haven't got around to percentages yet with the new list, but I can explain some other things.

For your second question, Threshold. Threshold really doesn't get online till turn four. they have to spend these turns using cantrips to optimize their hand. If you don't give them that time, they will almost always only have one counter in hand. This is actually why Solidarity is so bad against Thresh, because they have to go off on the turn that Thresh will have a close to optimal hand.

The matches that would be improved by disruption are very low hence the reason I don't have any. That and the fact that adding disruption just seem useless, almost any of your spells can be a Duress for a counterspell if you play correctly.

Also, I wouldn't be worrying about your aggro match. It is quite possibly the least of your worries.

[MasterBlaster]

Do you have a list with Infernal Tutor that you feel is optimal yet?

I'm very much interested in seeing the new face of Nausea.

[Pyrokinesis]

I picked up the deck and started screwing around with it after seeing Roopey topdeck like Squee last Saturday.

A half-decent list:
Nausea


main

Mana

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Land Grant
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

4x City of Traitors
4x Helm of Awakening//Whee!

Scary cards

4x Night's Whisper

Tutors

4x Burning Wish//See sideboard.

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Infernal Tutor:

1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils of Agony

//18 cards.

Eggs
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Darkwater Egg
4x Shadowblood Egg
//12 cards.
//Main

Sideboard
3x Durress
3x Xantid Swarm
Wishboard:
1x Promise of Power
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Regrowth
1x Infernal Contract
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Echoing Ruin
1x Hull Breach
1x Chain Lightning
//8 cards.

I really like this build. Playing it feels like driving a tank into suburbia - broken if beatable. It has eleven tutors (effectively). I at first tried no Spoils, then two, then three, as it gives you a chance at scoring a crucial Helm of Awakening, but you only want to play one in a game (if any). This build even forces you to tutor/wish for Tendrils, which cuts down on dead draws. I moved the fourth Whisper to the maindeck because the Lion's Eye Diamonds facilitate such more ridiculous plays that it seems laughable. However, LED is a veritable suicide bomb vs. Force of Will, so it could be better anyway. Best maindeck change I can think of is moving a Whisper to the board (taking out Hull Breach or Regrowth, most likely) and putting something terrible in the maindeck to replace it. Maybe a fourth Spoils.

So this is an adequately consistent (and onanistic) list with Infernal Tutor in it. At least until Ramsaroop comes along and beats me across the face with better ideas.



P.S: Isn't it nice to finally kick Sleight of Hand to the curb?

[GreenOne]

i'd like to have a maindeck meditate instead of diminishing returns:
- Costs 1 blu less (this version is more blue-light) so can be easily cast when you draw it
- it doesn't make my opponent draw any new force of will / daze
- it doesn't remove my other 1 ofs when i cast it. If I remove my copy of tendrils in the maindeck i can only go for burning wish -> tendrils.
- 4 cards are usually enough to win.

I think diminishing returns is in the sideboard because is a sorcery, but maindeck we can run istants too, as Infernal Tutor tutorizes for anything.

[calosso]

I picked up the deck and started screwing around with it after seeing Roopey topdeck like Squee last Saturday.

A half-decent list:
Nausea


main

Mana

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Land Grant
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

4x City of Traitors
4x Helm of Awakening//Whee!

Scary cards

4x Night's Whisper

Tutors

4x Burning Wish//See sideboard.

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Infernal Tutor:

1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils of Agony

//18 cards.

Eggs
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Darkwater Egg
4x Shadowblood Egg
//12 cards.
//Main

Sideboard
3x Durress
3x Xantid Swarm
Wishboard:
1x Promise of Power
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Regrowth
1x Infernal Contract
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Echoing Ruin
1x Hull Breach
1x Chain Lightning
//8 cards.

I really like this build. Playing it feels like driving a tank into suburbia - broken if beatable. It has eleven tutors (effectively). I at first tried no Spoils, then two, then three, as it gives you a chance at scoring a crucial Helm of Awakening, but you only want to play one in a game (if any). This build even forces you to tutor/wish for Tendrils, which cuts down on dead draws. I moved the fourth Whisper to the maindeck because the Lion's Eye Diamonds facilitate such more ridiculous plays that it seems laughable. However, LED is a veritable suicide bomb vs. Force of Will, so it could be better anyway. Best maindeck change I can think of is moving a Whisper to the board (taking out Hull Breach or Regrowth, most likely) and putting something terrible in the maindeck to replace it. Maybe a fourth Spoils.

So this is an adequately consistent (and onanistic) list with Infernal Tutor in it. At least until Ramsaroop comes along and beats me across the face with better ideas.



P.S: Isn't it nice to finally kick Sleight of Hand to the curb?

I hope you know Roop cut night's whisper for infernal tutor. Also he runs meditate over diminishing returns.

[Pyrokinesis]

Meditate over Returns maindeck: Better.

Sleight of Hand over Night's Whisper: Just stupid. THere's almost no reason to take out WHisper instead of Sleight for IT.

[Evil Roopey]

Meditate over Returns maindeck: Better.

Sleight of Hand over Night's Whisper: Just stupid. THere's almost no reason to take out WHisper instead of Sleight for IT.

In fact there is. You see Sleight of Hand cost 1. Night's Whisper cost 2. See the huuuuge margin in between that? It's big, trust me. This is also the reason why I am only running 3 IT and 4 Spoils. Making the deck as consistant as possible when you don't have a Helm is actually the main objective here.

Also, I haven't tested it yet, but Brainstorm might go back in with the addition of more shuffling effects.

Roop

[Skullclamping]

everybody is talking about your list Roop, so can you post it?

I think 3 IT are enough because of its 1B CC

Thanks,
Skullclamping

[Evil Roopey]

everybody is talking about your list Roop, so can you post it?

I think 3 IT are enough because of its 1B CC

Thanks,
Skullclamping

Not only that but the fact that it is still a situational tutor makes it less then optimal when you draw them in multiples, especially without a Helm.

Nausea 2.1
// Mana
4 City of Traitors
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

// Cantrip
3 Darkwater Egg
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Shadowblood Egg
3 Sleight of Hand (Maybe Brainstorm?)
1 Meditate

// Other Shit
4 Burning Wish
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Spoils of the Vault
3 Infernal Tutor

// Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Night's Whisper
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Promise of Power
1 Regrowth
1 Infernal Contract
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Simplify
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Firebolt
4 Xantid Swarm

[Lord Dralnu]

I noticed roop made a comment about brainstorm over SoH and I like it. I was testing it out and it seemed to be better most of the time. In roop's current list there are 8 shuffle effects which seem enough to take advantage of it. Brainstorm is also good for setting up your cantrips or meditate after LED. It protects against discard somewhat. Maybe someone,who is better than I, can test it further, I think it should work out well.

[Bane of the Living]

The deck originally ran Brainstorm and I think it was a bad idea to replace it with Sleight in the first place. I never really liked it in the deck, a draw 3 is just way more powerful when setting up for the turn 2 kill.

[My Name Is Scott]

The deck originally ran Brainstorm and I think it was a bad idea to replace it with Sleight in the first place. I never really liked it in the deck, a draw 3 is just way more powerful when setting up for the turn 2 kill.
The problem with brainstorm is that you never want to draw what you put back. Putting sleight in over brainstorm was a huge improvement, as the deck didn't have enough shuffle effects to support a good brainstorm. Brainstorm has yet to be tested with the addition of three more shuffle effects as far as I know. That's the reason roop didn't have a definate slot, sleight of hand may still be better.

[Ebinsugewa]

I'm really not a big fan of Brainstorm for the reasons already stated. At absolute worst, Sleight replaces itself and clears off the top of your library. Having to dilute the deck with shuffle effects is not worth the Ancestral that Brainstorm may or may not provide you.

On a testing note, preliminary goldfishing with the deck has not proven Infernal Tutor as a factor in my wins (IE it was a Storm spell if I even cast it at all). But, I do believe this is a result of the small sample size, and I will continue to play the deck. Meditate coming back is a major plus, the deck was lacking with the draw that Night's Whisper provided :(

[clavio]

I have to disagree, It has been much more effective than whisper in all of my testing. I have only once had to cast it for storm once. It is so good that Im going to buy some and make this one of my primary decks that I play.

[ACME_Myst]

Hi all,


first off, let me make one thing clear. I have absolutely NOBODY over here to competetively (?spelling?) test against Tier1 Legacy decks. Therefore my experiences in testing rely more or less on some vintage (5C stax and WTF in particular) and Legacy rogue decks. If someone from these boards would like to help me test this with Magic Workstation or the like, please send me a message.


Now, for my current decklist:

//Land (11)

1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
2 City of Brass [should probably be Seas too..]
2 Ancient Tomb

//Creatures (3)

3 Trinket Mage

//Artifact Mana (8)

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond


//Spell Mana (8)

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

//Cantrip (8)

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Chromatic Sphere
2 Night's Whisper

//Draw/Tutoring (9)

3 Meditate
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Spoils of the Vault

//Random (13)

4 Helm of Awakening
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Tendrils of Agony


Sideboard

[Nothing yet]

So that's it for the decklist. Here are some explanations of cardchoices:

Land:

Fetches/Duals more or less explain themselves I guess. Ancient tomb is in there to drop 1st turn helm or top + activation.


Other Mana:

Also explains itself. 8 Rituals, petals + LED. LED is great, super synergy with Infernal Tutor, big draw spells or IGG.

Cantrip:

Sensei's Divining Top: Great setup card, combo's with Helm to go infinite and is great with fetch.

Chromatic Sphere: 1 Mana colorfixing cantrip, 0 under Helm. Superb.

Night's Whisper: I felt like I needed another setup card in this deck and was really doubting between whisper and brainstorm. I finally decided for whisper because it net's you an extra card. Should I ever start to run Force of Will then I'd probably switch to brainstorm.

Draw/Tutoring:

Meditate: Legacy's best draw spell, but not always wanted since it doesn't ensure victory. I feel running four is too much, but I may be wrong here.

Infernal Tutor: Basically the card this deck is build to abuse. I simply love it. With LED it becomes a demonic tutor, without LED it helps you find redundant rituals/tendrils so you can have a good game against control without actualy giving them a vital countertarget.


Spoils of the Vault: Someone once said this card is Legacy's vampiric tutor. Well I agree, even though it sometimes randomly kills you, it's very powerfull when used as it should be.

Creatures:

Trinket Mage: Probably a strange choice, but since the deck was build to abuse Infernal Tutor, and since that card works so great with LED, I figured I should include Trinket. Besides finding LED to "free" your infernal, it also acts as a mini-toolbox tutor finding sphere's tops or petals as desired. With Helm in play and when fetching LED it actually accelerates too!


Random:

Helm of Awakening: Great enabler to go off. Helps about every card in the deck and combos great with top.

Duress: I should have at least some kind of protection against control right?

Diminishing Returns/Ill-Gotten Gains: Your bombs. Resolving one of these usually wins you the game.

Tendrils: duh.



So now that we've got all the cards covered, some good news, and some bad news:

The good news: This decks average goldfish is somewhere around turn 2.8 . I figure that's pretty fast, or at least for Legacy it is. Speed should really be this deck's greatest strength, and personally I don't think I would mind removing the 4 duress if it would significantly lower my goldfish.

The bad news: Well, even though it's possibly to create a redundant hand with infernal tutor to play around FoW and friends, this deck (like most combo, but still..) has a pretty bad game against most control. It sort of autoscoopes to 3Sphere, sphere of restistance and that sort of stuff. Wasteland is a bitch too, even though you can play around it.



Here are some goldfishes with the deck, just to give you guys an idea about how to play this. As it happened, in the three goldfishes I did I drew three distinctly different "types" of opening hands. Please note these are actual goldfish hands, not hands I made up:


Goldfish nr 1 "The Suicide Hand":

I lose a dieroll to my virtual opponent, so let's assume we are on the draw.

My opening hand:

2 Spoils of the Vault
Infernal Tutor
Tendrils of Agony
Dark Ritual
2 Lotus Petal

So as said, this is kind of a suicide hand. Especially since I have a double Spoils, this hand is very risky to keep. I decided I should however, since if my opponent won't play any counterspells or the like, this will probably result in a turn 1 win. I figured that whas pretty sweet since I needed a demonstration goldfish for here, and turn 1 kills always look good. So here we go:

Turn 1:

draw: polluted delta

1 play delta (why not..)
2 play petal [Storm 1]
3 play petal [Storm 2]
4 Break 2x petal [Storm 2, BB]
5 Play Dark Ritual [Storm 3, BBBB]
6 Spoils for Lion's Eye Diamond [Storm 4, BBB]
find it 11 cards down, bringing me down to 9 lives.
7 Infernal Tutor for second LED [Storm 5, B]
8 Play 2x LED [Storm 7, B]
9 Play Spoils for Infernal Tutor, break 2x LED in response [Storm 8, BBBBBB]
find it 6 cards down, 3 lives left
10 Play Infernal Tutor for Tendrils of Agony [Storm 9, BBBB]
11 Play Tendrils [Storm 10]


Ok, so I have to admit that hand was just über broken. Let's shuffle up a new hand:


Goldfish nr 2 "Average":

I win the dieroll, so I will go first.

My Opening hand:

Helm of Awakening
Tendrils of Agony
Infernal Tutor
Lotus Petal
Underground Sea
Night's Whisper
Trinket Mage

So that's an average hand. It's got some tutoring, some draw, a little bit of acceleration and a land. I decide to keep, so here goes:


Turn 1:
Play Underground sea, play lotus petal, play Helm of Awakening.

Turn 2:
Draw Polluted Delta.
Play delta, break for swamp, play Trinket Mage for LED.

Turn 3:
Draw Chromatic Sphere.
Attack with Trinket Mage, bringing him down to 18 life.

1 Drop Sphere [Storm 1]
2 Drop LED [Storm 2]
3 Swamp, break sphere [Storm 2, B]
draw Lotus Petal
4 Play Petal [Storm 3, B]
5 Play Whisper [Storm 4]
draw dark ritual and helm of awakening
6 Tap Underground Sea, play Infernal Tutor for second Dark Ritual [Storm 5]
7 sac petal, play Ritual [Storm 6, BBB]
8 play Helm of Awakening [Storm 7, BB]
9 Play Dark Ritual [Storm 8, BBBB]
10 Play Tendrils [Storm 9, BB]


Alright, so that average hand without any real bombs or rituals just gave us a turn 3 victory. Pretty nice. Let's have one more go:

Goldfish nr 3 "I need that topdeck":

Once more, I win the dieroll, so I will be on the play.

Opening hand:

Island
Trinket Mage
Dark Ritual
Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
Infernal Tutor


This hand is great vs any non-control deck. ANY black mana source you find will win you the game right here, right now. I guess this is a reason to keep the hand for the purposes of goldfishing. In a real match, you might want to consider your chances a little bit more carefully.

Turn 1:
play Island, play Top

Turn 2:
During my upkeep, tap island to look with top, revealing:

Polluted Delta
Trinket Mage
Lotus Petal

Remember that part about only needing one black mana source? I stack the petal on top, drawing it during my draw step. After that:

1 Play petal [Storm 1]
2 sac petal, play dark ritual [Storm 2, BBB]
3 play double LED [Storm 4, BBB]
4 play Infernal Tutor, crack 2x LED in response [Storm 5, BBBBBBB]
search for Ill-Gotten Gains
5 play Ill-Gotten Gains [Storm 6, BBB]
Return 2x LED, Infernal Tutor
6 play double LED [Storm 8, BBB]
7 play Infernal Tutor, crack 2x LED in response[Storm 9, BBBBBBB]
fetch Tendrils
8 play Tendrils [Storm 10, BBB]


well, these are just three goldfishes I wrote out for you guys, hope it makes some things clear about playing this deck.


Also, I spend the better part of my evening yesterday testing against a combo/control deck running 4x FoW, 2x Daze, 2x Mana Leak and 4x Duress, combined with lots of early game carddraw (Brainstorm and friends) and that deck having about a turn 4 goldfish. Oh yeah, it ran 2x Stifle in the maindeck as well. These conditions forced me to race against a deck running about all the hate I could possibly not wish for. Although these are really bad conditions, I still went 50/50 against the guy and we still need to play the deciding match. After those games he told me that even though he had FoW, he could never really find any good target to use it on, simply because I never really made any *very* important plays, so it wouldn't really matter it he forced or not. My point in saying this is actually giving an example that it is possible to have a decent matchup against a deck running lots of control combined with a fast clock.


If you've come to here, thank you for reading through all that crap I wrote. I would ask anybody who is interested to come up with ideas to further develop this deck as I would really like to make it competetive.

grtz,

Thomas

ps. Once again, if you would like to help me test against Tier1 decks you have experience playing with, please do PM me.

[Jander78]

Merged threads.

[Ebinsugewa]

I have to disagree, It has been much more effective than whisper in all of my testing. I have only once had to cast it for storm once.

I'm certainly not doubting the usefulness of the card, but in my preliminary testing, I can't declare the deck broken enough to play again. I'm glad you have had better luck though.

PS - Merged what threads?

[ACME_Myst]

well,

i started a new thread in the new&developent forum for my deck, but he merged it with the nausea thread. so please note my build isn't trying to be a new build of nausea, rather it's a standalone tendrils build.

i must say however that there definitly are some overlapping things between the decks. don't know if anybody is interested in my build since i don't really have any reports on matchups against Tier1 decks, but maybe it brings up some ideas on how to insert Infernal Tutor in nausea. i don't know, i merely figured i wanted my list online for discussion, so that might explain some things about that post (the goldfish games for example) which otherwise might seem out of place.

greetz

[MasterBlaster]

I have to disagree, It has been much more effective than whisper in all of my testing. I have only once had to cast it for storm once. It is so good that Im going to buy some and make this one of my primary decks that I play.
I finally got around to throwing this deck together and trying it out and I have to say that I completely agree with Clavio. Infernal Tutor is simply amazing and it's not nearly as dependent on LED as I thought it would be. About a third of the time I cast Infernal Tutor with an empty hand, I didn't use an LED to help to empty it.

Also I kind of think that a second Meditate should be put into the deck somehow.

[Locutus]

Hi all,
I've been reading this thread for some time now, as Nausea is kind of fun to play :)
I played the deck this weekend at our local legacy tournament, mostly because everyone else said you can't play tendrils in legacy. I'm from Germany and there aren't many lagacy players around here, so most tournamenst are about 20-30 people, and we don't really have a metagame here, as half of those people are playing their own creations, so it's hard to predict what's coming at you. The non-rouge decks always include goblins and some survival decks, so I thought playing combo would be a good idea.

Here is my Decklist:

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Land Grant
3 City of Traitors
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills

//Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Spoils of the Vault
3 Infernal Tutor

//Cantrip/Draw
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Darkwater Egg
3 Shadowblood Egg
4 Meditate
3 Brainstorm

//Others
4 Helm of Awakening
2 Tendrils of Agony

//Sideboard
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Firebolt
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony


I would have played one Ill-Gotten Gains main insted of a Meditate or Brainstorm, but didn't get another one, so i left it in the board. I choose Meditate over Night's Whisper, because i never had a problem getting a blue mana to cast it while testing, and four cards are usually enough to win right then. Also it is instant, so you can go like Burning Wish, response Meditate, response sac LED, so you get the mana, draw four cards and then get whatever is missing with the wish :)

We were 28 people, so we played 5 rounds.

Round 1 was against some Mono-G Stompy.
He played first both games, but i went off turn 2 and 3, so it was 2:0 in under 10 minutes. Aggro decks without any disruption are not scary, but he claimed i would have been dead next turn in both games. I was at 13 and 10 life, so I guess he was right.

Round 2: Rifter
Not a bad matchup, but Abeyance is kind of bad for you. I played first, and he played a plains on his first turn. I went off turn 2 without playing a helm, and it worked really good. After i played Tendrils with storm 12+, he revealed the Abeyance from his hand and scooped. Game 2 my opening hand wasn't as fast as in Game 1, but after playing a helm turn 2 i went off turn 3 again, starting with ritual, wish for Therapy, Therapy naming Abeyance, 'cause it is the only way I can loose this matchup. He didn't have one, and didn't draw one through cycling with my Infernal Tutor on the stack, so again it was 2:0 in really short time.

Round 3: Some kind of 4-Color Control
Not much to say here, both games he got turn 2 Meddling Mage naming Tendrils with Force backup for my Firebolt. 0:2 :(

Round 4: ATS
I play first, going City, Helm, go. He drops a Bird, and i kill him turn 2. Game 2 I mulligan down to 5, and the only mana sources i see are cabal rituals, and no fixers at all. I'm down to 6 life when I finally see a chance to go off, but i have to spoil for another ritual losing 8 life.. In game 3 my starting hand again isn't to hot, I had 2 Duals and a City but no helm and no tutor. I play lands for three turns, then dropping some eggs until i finally draw some tutoring. I start going off, and he hardcasts a Force on my Dark Ritual, but I got another one, so it doesn't matter. He showed me a Stifle in Game 2 after i killed myself, so i Wish for Duress before playing Tendrils, and of course he had a Stifle in his Hand. I end up with 3 Mana and stormcount 8 with Tendrils and Infernal Tutor in my Hand and Helm in play, so I play Tendrills for 18, bringing him down to 1. He naturalizes my Helm on his turn, but can't do much else. I had all three duals in play, and luckily drew a City from the Top, so I'm hellbent for the Tutor, find a Burning wish and have the mana to play it, giving me the Firebolt of inevitable Doom in my Hand. I nevcer thought i would use it to kill a player when putting together the SB..2:1 :cool:

In the last round, my possible opponents are:
Rifter
NQG
2x Goblins
RGSA
Solidarity
Blue Weenie
So I have 4 autowins, one mediocre matchup, one bad matchup and an autoloss..guess which one i got? Yeah..Storm at instant speed >> Storm at sorcery speed :(

So in the end I got a 7th place with 3-2, which could have been a 4-1 4th place with a little bit more luck with the pairings. I had a lot of fun playing the deck, and a lot of time to recover from the hard thinking between the rounds, a clear advantage over solidarity :D
Oh yeah, and i got a Blistering Firecat for my 7th place *wee*

As far as the deck is concerned, Infernal Tutor really is a great card, it only sucked one time when I tried going off to soon. Also Brainstorm is better than SoH, because you dig a card deeper, and often will either have a way to shuffle (I had 8 shuffle effects in my deck), or you have a Spoils, which can remove the two cards you put back if you don't need them, or can just cantrip if you name than when you just need more spells for your stormcount, or you can put back a card you want to play, than crack an LED und draw the Card with a sphere/egg. I would consider Spoils as the worst card in the deck, because it is very risky. While goldfishing i often did something like Bayo, eot Spoils for Helm, lose 35 life. It also makes Infernal Tutor worse, as you sometimes remove tha card you want to find from the game. I definitly wouldn't play more than 3.

Locu

[clavio]

I played nausea today. I went 1-2. I gotta say, Im not happy. I think I played the deck adequetly enough, I just got shafted I guess. I didn't take any notes or anything so this might not be 100% what happened. But I just want to point out the problems I had.

To be fair all of my opponents played force of will.

Match 1: Hes playing ATS (wtf)

game 1 I go off like turn 3. Standard stuff.

game 2 I go land grant, he goes force of will. He goes cabal therapy, being he knows every card in my hand. He flashed it. He sex monkeyed my helm, but I dont think it mattered. He ended up winning via creature beat.

game 3 I spoils to death, and I would have won right there if I had not been killed my myself.

Match 2: Aluren
I won, he had some shitty luck.

Match 3: Relic orb

Game one: he counters all of my shit, then beats down with efreet
Game two: he counters all of my shit, then beats down with efreet. Chalice for one at some point. He also bounced my xantid swarm, and it couldn't come back thanks to chalice.

I want to cut down my spoils count. I think 2-3 should be good, but 4 is just over the top. Infernal tutor is pretty bitchin, I think Ill play 4. Overall I think this deck can be one of the best, it just needs to be refined a little bit

[MasterBlaster]

I'll have to disagree with you. Spoils may suck but it is a necessary evil. Often I find myself very dependent on Spoils to grab me the Helm or Ritual that I need to start comboing. Also I hope that one of those 4 Infernal Tutors that you're playing is in the sideboard.

[Locutus]

With 4 Burning wish and 3 Infernal Tutor main, I think 2-3 Spoils is enough tutoring power. Spoils is good, because it can get Ritual, Helm, or LED before you go off, but playing two spoils in one game will often cost more life than you have, unless you get really lucky.

[MasterBlaster]

With 4 Burning wish and 3 Infernal Tutor main, I think 2-3 Spoils is enough tutoring power. Spoils is good, because it can get Ritual, Helm, or LED before you go off, but playing two spoils in one game will often cost more life than you have, unless you get really lucky.

Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor are both great but they do little to set you up to start the combo because they can't grab a Helm or Ritual. Also casting multiple Spoils isn't so bad if you're running Brainstorm.

[PunkRocker1134]

Still only Three Spoils is really needed. Atleast so far in my testing. Then again I run a mix of Iggy Pop and Nausea and to be honest I think it is much better than Nausea. It has consistancy and some speed.

[Evil Roopey]

Still only Three Spoils is really needed. Atleast so far in my testing. Then again I run a mix of Iggy Pop and Nausea and to be honest I think it is much better than Nausea. It has consistancy and some speed.

So it's basically Iggy-Pop with wishes? Or does it just have the Nausea mana-base? I have actually been thinking about doing something similar to this, but never really got around to it.

[PunkRocker1134]

this is what mine looks like:

Iggy/Nausea


// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [B] Bayou
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [A] Taiga
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Spells
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [ST] Sleight of Hand
4 [VI] Helm of Awakening
3 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [OD] Shadowblood Egg
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [OD] Darkwater Egg
4 [MR] Chromatic Sphere
3 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [FD] Night's Whisper
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [MR] Promise of Power
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth
SB: 1 [7E] Infernal Contract
SB: 3 [8E] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

Mine is more of a nausea base with Iggy in the deck, but with Iggy maindeck we also gain the ability to side in Leyline and use Iggy as a Mind Twist. Also it gives Infernal tutor a better target then Mediate. I am tempted to run Iggy with Burnign wish too. This is what I've been messing with and to decent goldfishes at the very least.

[GreenOne]

Reanimate!

Has anyone ever tested rite of flame or second sunrise?

Second sunrise can be funny with all those eggs, LED, and petal. You can IT for it and break LED for WWW.

[MasterBlaster]

I haven't tested either of those cards but I can't imagine Rite of Flame being any good as Nausea doesn't run enough red cards to justify it and it makes a horrible wish target because it doesn't give enough mana.

Second Sunrise on the other hand might be really good. The only problem would of course be getting the double-white. I'll test it(eventually).

Edit: Anybody know what I should cut from the deck to fit in a Second Sunrise?

[Evil Roopey]

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [A] Badlands
1 [U] Bayou

// Spells
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MR] Chromatic Sphere
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [OD] Darkwater Egg
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [OD] Shadowblood Egg
4 [VI] Helm of Awakening
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [OV] Meditate
2 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [FD] Night's Whisper
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Ruin
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [OD] Firebolt
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth
SB: 1 [OV] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [MM] Unmask
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroclasm


That is my current list. Just thought it might fuel some discussion.

[MasterBlaster]

So the changes are:
-4 Land Grant
-1 Wooded Foothills
-1 Taiga
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Brainstorm
+1 Ill-Gotten Gains
+2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Polluted Delta
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Badlands
+1 Underground Sea

I'm guessing the changes were made to make it more consistent.

What were the reasons for taking out Land Grants in Favor of Fetchlands? I would have figured a free spell would have been too good to consider it's removal.

[Evil Roopey]

So the changes are:
-4 Land Grant
-1 Wooded Foothills
-1 Taiga
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Brainstorm
+1 Ill-Gotten Gains
+2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Polluted Delta
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Badlands
+1 Underground Sea

I'm guessing the changes were made to make it more consistent.

What were the reasons for taking out Land Grants in Favor of Fetchlands? I would have figured a free spell would have been too good to consider it's removal.


Showing the control deck your hand had proven to be to much of a liability to get a free spell.

[Ebinsugewa]

I played Stolze's kid brother I think round one in CT with Nausea. He surprised me by winning turn 3 by getting the nuts off a Meditate after I tapped out for Nightscape Familiar. He seemed to be playing a wierd build, having Gemstones and Forbidden Orchards. He even mini-Tendrils'ed for 14 and I smashed his face because he had one card in had every turn, I kept countering the key draw. Anyways, I'd like to go back to playing this or the Culling Tendrils deck or something for a change, have you been working on it again, Roop? I play in a mostly scrubby aggro meta and I think Storm combo would be a hot call.

[kicks_422]

The only blue cards in the deck are 2 Brainstorms, 1 Meditate, and 1 Diminishing Returns... How about dropping the blue altogether? I've modified my list to this:

4 City of Traitors
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Shadowblood Egg
2 Darkwater Egg
4 Lotus Petal

4 Helm of Awakening
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Spoils of the Vault
3 Night's Whisper
3 Tendrils of Agony

And for the SB, same as the one Evil Roopey posted, only -1 Diminishing Returns, +1 Skeletal Scrying (still testing it out... looks like it would be replaced, though...)

The blue cards never really helped that much during my goldfishes... They were just OK, not great... With this build, I'm having much less fizzles and more explosive draws... :tongue:

[M.Maddox]

How do a few counterspells not wreck this deck?

[emidln]

How do a few counterspells not wreck this deck?

The general idea is to bait properly, board Xantid Swarms, and to generally win before your opponent has counterspell mana online. Since Force of Will is in the format, you need to bait properly, have a bit of luck, and you get to race their Force of Will draw (approximately 40% of the time).

[Bane of the Living]

Showing the control deck your hand had proven to be to much of a liability to get a free spell.

That's a pretty huge card in the deck that your writing off to a bad control matchup. The deck has a weakness to counterspells whether or not your revealing your hand. Im not sure how removing a free land tutor will make the match better. Your really playing this deck with 11 lands? Are you still playing the deck roopey? The only reason the deck ran consistant without Meditate was because your eggs and cantrips drew into other spells not 11 lands. If control continues to be a problem just play fucking Duress. I swear it works. Infact I think Ive always played the deck with at least 3 maindecked.

A few counterspells never happen.. At the most you will see FoW and Daze together. Sometimes FoW and Counterspell if thresh is on the play. Meddling Mage is turn 2 as well. White thresh aside its not something to worry about too much. Ive literally seen this deck win turn one when the first turn Land Grant was Forced and the only mana source was a Lotus Petal.

IMO this deck still needs Meditate. It became much less consistant once removed, relying way too much on Helm and amazing egg cantripping.

[PunkRocker1134]

Bane Whats your list. I'm very curious to see it.

[Evil Roopey]

That's a pretty huge card in the deck that your writing off to a bad control matchup. The deck has a weakness to counterspells whether or not your revealing your hand. Im not sure how removing a free land tutor will make the match better. Your really playing this deck with 11 lands? Are you still playing the deck roopey? The only reason the deck ran consistant without Meditate was because your eggs and cantrips drew into other spells not 11 lands. If control continues to be a problem just play fucking Duress. I swear it works. Infact I think Ive always played the deck with at least 3 maindecked.

A few counterspells never happen.. At the most you will see FoW and Daze together. Sometimes FoW and Counterspell if thresh is on the play. Meddling Mage is turn 2 as well. White thresh aside its not something to worry about too much. Ive literally seen this deck win turn one when the first turn Land Grant was Forced and the only mana source was a Lotus Petal.

IMO this deck still needs Meditate. It became much less consistant once removed, relying way too much on Helm and amazing egg cantripping.


Fetchlands are free land tutors. Showing the control player my hand meant I couldn't bait counters because they new what I was going to do. The deck always ran 12 lands if you included Land Grant in the land count, and no it hasn't been a problem, and yes I have extensively tested this list. It ups the Gro match by a whole 10% more in your favor, putting it at 6-4. This is amazing. Meditate is in the deck, it's a tutor target, along with IGGy. Maybe you should test the new list before making assumptions.

[Ebinsugewa]

Meditate is in the deck, it's a tutor target, along with IGGy. Maybe you should test the new list before making assumptions.

That being the one on the first page? Niknight and I were also discussing removing blue, we'll tell you if anything comes of it.

[Bane of the Living]

Fetchlands are free land tutors. Showing the control player my hand meant I couldn't bait counters because they new what I was going to do. The deck always ran 12 lands if you included Land Grant in the land count, and no it hasn't been a problem, and yes I have extensively tested this list. It ups the Gro match by a whole 10% more in your favor, putting it at 6-4. This is amazing. Meditate is in the deck, it's a tutor target, along with IGGy. Maybe you should test the new list before making assumptions.


Roopey the Meditate comment was directed torwards kicks_422.

I dont count Land Grant as a land count because when I draw it during combo I can play it for free as a spell and add 1 to the death count. Im sure you understand my concern in drawing into lands? I think any smart Thresh player knows the difference between a Helm of Awakening//Burning Wish and a Shadowblood Egg//Nights Whisper. I dont really understand this baiting you speak of. I play though counterspells, I win through counterspells. Wasnt that the point of the turn 2 win?

My current list should be the same as Roopeys except for 3 maindeck Duress. I believe I kicked Brainstorm//SoH for it.

[kicks_422]

Bane, you're right, Meditate fills a great need in the deck... I'm taking out the 3 Night's Whispers in the main and replacing them with 3 Meditates... Also -1 Wooded Foothills, +1 Tropical Island...

I haven't gotten around to testing the fetchland configuration that Roopey posted, but since he says it's good, and since he's the creator of this awesomeness, I'm inclined to believe... :tongue:

EDIT1: Is Mishra, Artificier Prodigy usable in this deck?... We were discussing it in our group and thought it was a win-more card, and in our opinions not needed... Fetching more LED's is sexy, though... :tongue:

EDIT2: I'm experimenting with the deck a bit... replaced Land Grants, the duals, and fetchland for 4 Gemstone Mine and 4 Chrome Mox...

Gemstone Mine helps a lot in the color-fixing department, and I won't tap it for more than 3 times in a game... And Chrome Mox to imprint early Tendrils or extra Spoils in hand, or just a free spell... I've had positive results so far... Next I'll try the fetchlands/duals configuration.... :tongue:

[Zir]

A new card which is could be good in nausea just popped up from TS:
Chromatic Star - 1
Artifact (C)
{1},{T}, Sacrifice Chromatic Star: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
When Chromatic Star is put into a graveyard from play, draw a card.
"This item is not from...now. It reflects a sky no longer ours and gleams with hope that does not exist."
-Tavalus, acolyte of Korlis

This is basically CSphere with a minor tweak, but it could be worse than the eggs should you need to filter the 2 colorless from City of Traitors.
Thoughts?

[Evil Roopey]

A new card which is could be good in nausea just popped up from TS:
Chromatic Star - 1
Artifact (C)
{1},{T}, Sacrifice Chromatic Star: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
When Chromatic Star is put into a graveyard from play, draw a card.
"This item is not from...now. It reflects a sky no longer ours and gleams with hope that does not exist."
-Tavalus, acolyte of Korlis

This is basically CSphere with a minor tweak, but it could be worse than the eggs should you need to filter the 2 colorless from City of Traitors.
Thoughts?

I'm definatly going to test it.

[Bane of the Living]

Its certainly a replacement for Sphere in every deck, especially Affinity. I dont see it needed as an additional cog in Nausea tho because it would make you too Helm dependant. But, it replaces Sphere.

[kicks_422]

How about 4 Spheres, 4 Stars, 1 of each Egg?... There were some instances when I found myself needing to crack Eggs to hopefully draw something good, but I only had 1 mana floating to do so...

[Lego]

Its certainly a replacement for Sphere in every deck, especially Affinity. I dont see it needed as an additional cog in Nausea tho because it would make you too Helm dependant. But, it replaces Sphere.

It's not an auto-replacement for Sphere in all decks. Salvagers Game will almost certainly want to keep the Sphere, as their Solidarity matchup would seem to me to be abysmal otherwise (although not much better as is.)

[MattH]

It's not an auto-replacement for Sphere in all decks. Salvagers Game will almost certainly want to keep the Sphere, as their Solidarity matchup would seem to me to be abysmal otherwise (although not much better as is.)
I must confess, I am not at all following you on this. Can you explain this?

[Bryant Cook]

You can't respond to the draw on Chromatic Sphere to kill them, on the draw with Chromatic Star you can. Thus, it being worse against Solidarity. It's the same card basically, theres no real need to play Chromatic Star over Sphere. Not many decks are going to kill your Chrome Sphere anyways...

[on1y0ne]

You can't respond to the draw on Chromatic Sphere to kill them, on the draw with Chromatic Star you can. Thus, it being worse against Solidarity. It's the same card basically, theres no real need to play Chromatic Star over Sphere. Not many decks are going to kill your Chrome Sphere anyways...

You are incorrect, Bryant. Although adding the mana to your mana pool does not use the stack, the draw does. The same is true for tapping a City of Brass for mana, you can respond to the trigger of the damage, but you cannot respond to the mana being put into the mana pool.

[quicksilver]

You are incorrect, Bryant. Although adding the mana to your mana pool does not use the stack, the draw does. The same is true for tapping a City of Brass for mana, you can respond to the trigger of the damage, but you cannot respond to the mana being put into the mana pool.

Inccorect, chromatic sphere draws you a card at mana speed, just like the painlands deal a damage to you at mana speed. Chromatic star is more like city of brass in that the card draw and damage are both seperate triggered abilities.

[MasterBlaster]

Inccorect, chromatic sphere draws you a card at mana speed, just like the painlands deal a damage to you at mana speed. Chromatic star is more like city of brass in that the card draw and damage are both seperate triggered abilities.

So Chromatic Sphere is always superior, unless someone wants to Disenchant the Chromatic Star? Ok. Can you explain to me why people use Terrarion in Affinity instead of Chromatic Sphere?(Off topic I know, but it perplexes me.)

[Bane of the Living]

The off topic answer is that it gives the double black mana for Cranial Plating, that it gives a red then black to cast Atog and Disciple. It gives WU for Meddling Mage. It also draws you a card when you sac it to ravager or atog. Which is why Chromatic Star will be good in affinity.

[slylie]

The off topic answer is that it gives the double black mana for Cranial Plating, that it gives a red then black to cast Atog and Disciple. It gives WU for Meddling Mage. It also draws you a card when you sac it to ravager or atog. Which is why Chromatic Star will be good in affinity.

:wink:

I think its pretty obivous why it is that much better: You get the cantrip if its cracked for mana or not. Terridon is sometimes played in sphere's place for that reason: sometimes you just want to draw the card without having to manaburn, and just sac it to ravager for a battlegrowth.

[kicks_422]

After fiddling around with the Chromatic Star and figuring out what's better between it and Sphere, I dedcided to run both... :D

4 City of Traitors
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass/Forbidden Orchard

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star

4 Helm of Awakening
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Meditate
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Regrowth
1 Night's Whisper
1 Infernal Contract
1 Promise of Power
1 Firebolt
1 Simplify
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Defense Grid

I decided to cut the eggs entirely because the 2 mana needed to filter were an issue sometimes...

Any other things from TS that we can potentially use?

[Drkdstryer]

You run a Diminishing Returns main? Obviously it's nice with Infernal Tutor and Hellbent, but you should really post your Wish-board as well.

3 Meditate is really high as well. And you run a very strange manabase - no fetches or Landgrants.

But it's good to know that you think that Star > the other Eggs - I was definitely also thinking of cutting the Eggs altogether and you just helped me in that decision.

[kicks_422]

I run a Returns main for those occasions when I feel like I don't have enough cards in hand to chain 10+ spells into a Tendrils... What better way to restock your hand than with a Draw7? :tongue:

Meditates are really for the draw that the deck sometimes needs... Though I'm contemplating on dropping them and the Returns for 4 Duress, as protection... Is that the right call?...

Also my mana base is as such because as Roopey pointed out, revealing your hand with Land Grant is a huge liability against control, and I've had a troubling amount of games lost because of the 1-2 life lost from cracking fetches... And 5-color lands at least ease your mind a bit from thinking of the proper land to fetch, and that's a good thing with all the thinking that you do with Nausea.... :tonuge:

[noobslayer]

That deck really isn't Nausea anymore. Nausea is based on a low mana curve and mana efficient cantrip effects and strong tutor power. This deck is based on a more rounded out mana base and higher cc drawing effects.

[Drkdstryer]

OK, here's where I've gone with Nausea.

Nausea 2.1
// Mana
4 City of Traitors
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

// Cantrip
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Shadowblood Egg
3 Sleight of Hand
2 Night's Whisper

// Other Shit
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Spoils of the Vault
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meditate

// Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Night's Whisper
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Promise of Power
1 Regrowth
1 Infernal Contract
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Simplify
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Firebolt
4 Xantid Swarm

OK, here are the big changes:

1 Tendrils - I really, REALLY hated drawing Tendrils when I was comboing - I almost always just Wish or Infernal Tutor for it. So I went down to just one in the main. It sometimes sucks drawing it when you go off, but you can fire off a smaller one to stay alive and then keep comboing next turn. Sucks, but it happens. Taking it completely out of the main means that you can only Burning Wish, and I use Infernal Tutor just too much to do that.

No Taiga - I never Land Granted or fetched for Taiga. Ever. I have enough Red to support Burning with in the Shadowblood Eggs and the 8 Chromatics. I figured that Burning Wish is one of the spells you cast at the end of your chain, so it's better to use Tropical Island for the Sleights and the Meditate when you fetch up lands early. Either way, having one less land and one more spell seems pretty good in the abstract, right?

Night's Whisper - Obviously only 2 seems untuned, but I like it better than Brainstorm and I had 2 empty slots. Anything Blue would increase my dependency on non-black mana, and I like Rituals too much to do that.

I mean, I don't actually have a Legacy playgroup right now; the best I can do is goldfishing, and I've been having some amazing hands. Turn 2-3 seems pretty regular for this build. I'd LOVE to get another Infernal Tutor in the deck; thinking about cutting a Whisper for it. Chaining Infernal Tutors into Thresholded Cabal Rituals, or Helm'ed Rituals, and LEDs when you are about to Burning Wish (my favorite)... Infernal Tutor is such a good card.

Thoughts? I'm pretty sure that cutting the Taiga is such a major move that it would require more than me sounding off on how good it is :>

[addaro]

Hi Drkdstryer

I have picked up Nausea as my deck for Legacy. So I started goldfishing and it seemed pretty awesome. I only disliked the Brainstorms because of not enough shuffling effects (replaced them with Sleights) and Meditates, I have left just one in the deck. But the rest was really good, Turn 2-3 all the time. So I practiced a lot and felt OK to start playing with it.

And here is the bad part, my first games showed a need for Duress and some bounce. And proved Spoils to be just too dangerous against many decks, turn 2-3 I was at like 14-11 life...so I cut them down to 3.

Also 1 Ill-Gotten Gains MD seems good to me. And why do you have so many Egg efects? 4+4+3 seems too much to me.

So anyway here is my view on Nausea, the things I am still considering is cutting the Taiga for a fetch land, because there really is no need for it with all the mana filtering and dropping Sleights for one more Tendrils and Duress and one MD bounce - Chain of Vapor.

// Mana
4 City of Traitors
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

// Cantrip
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
2 Shadowblood Egg
3 Sleight of Hand

// Other Stuff
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Helm of Awakening
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Duress

SB is the same, I will start thinking of it more after I find the MD optimal.

[Zir]

I've cut the Land Grants for Fetches like Roop did, and haven't looked back since. Seriously, being able to get lands that tap for two useful colours and not having to show your hand is such a huge boon for the deck. My control matchup is pretty decent, and I don't seem to need the MD duresses. I might cut a few eggs for them though, see how they work. Anyway, I advise everyone to test cutting the land grants. I'm pretty sure you won't be dissapointed.

[addaro]

Well and how many lands do you use? 11 like before (4 Grants, 4 Cities and 3 Duals) or more? Because the Cities are a huge boost giving two mana and grants giving a free storm count. Also with so many lands in the deck and so many countrips it must be hard to get hellbent without a use of LED. It just seems to me that when you change the lands you get a lot closer to just change the whole deck to be an IGGY POP. The way Nausea plays is a lot different, its just balls to the walls (or how you say it in english). If you change the mana base to be more safe against control and Wasteland and then remove the Spoils because of more safety you just get the Veggie Tendrils deck. And thats not why I have picked exactly this deck.

Just my 2 cents (can anyone please explain this to me? I get the idea when and how to use this phrase but dont understand the origin of it, thanks).

[Zir]

Well and how many lands do you use? 11 like before (4 Grants, 4 Cities and 3 Duals) or more? Because the Cities are a huge boost giving two mana and grants giving a free storm count. Also with so many lands in the deck and so many countrips it must be hard to get hellbent without a use of LED. It just seems to me that when you change the lands you get a lot closer to just change the whole deck to be an IGGY POP. The way Nausea plays is a lot different, its just balls to the walls (or how you say it in english). If you change the mana base to be more safe against control and Wasteland and then remove the Spoils because of more safety you just get the Veggie Tendrils deck. And thats not why I have picked exactly this deck.

Just my 2 cents (can anyone please explain this to me? I get the idea when and how to use this phrase but dont understand the origin of it, thanks).
My build uses this manabase:

4 City of Traitors
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

So I'm using 1 more land then you are. The point of this is that you retain the aggro-smashing properties of nausea, but rather than taking it up the ass once a control deck sees you don't have any mana except for the grant and they counter it, you don't have to worry about that anymore. The extra storm doesn't matter usually, and having lands that basically only tap for mana of one kind really sucks when you can have them tap for two colours. There's a drifference between playing balls to the walls combo and just running suboptimal cards for a rather trivial speedbump.

My 2 cents

[addaro]

Have anyone thought about not using colored lands at all. Here is a thread http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=293814&sid=6d050fa74b18617a4cf76bf8298e2a63 about Workshop Tendrils, so I thought like using 8 lands that give two colorless mana and about 12 Sphere/Star/Egg effects would be sufficient enough. The counts may be different, but you get the idea.

[Zir]

I'm thinking that's probably a bad idea. Hear me out on this:
This increases your reliance on Helm of Awakening, since in any other case the eggs will just be -1 mana. Secondly, what lands would you use? I can think of City of Traitors, Crystal Vein and Ancient Tomb. Tomb can't be used here since the lifeloss tends to add up real quickly between spoils and this. Crystal Vein needs to be sacced for its 2 mana, meaning it won't be worthwhile most of the time. Lastly, you become unable to play any tutors or draw prior to drawing off, seeing as your lands will only produce colourless mana. In theory, it doesn't seem like such a good idea, but the extra mana might offset the drawbacks, I'd have to test to be sure, but those are my initial thoughts.

[addaro]

Well I tried it over MWS and its not very good. You need something like 8-10 lands that produce two mana - all your comments are true, the additional life loss hurts and Crystal Veins sucks. And then the count off egg effects must be also more then 12, something like 14 seemed good to me (but you know how MWS shuffler sucks). So after all you get just the Easter Eggs deck, which is not very good. Im going back to original Nausea.

Well I see that you follow this thread Zir - may I ask you to post your decklist? Im trying your manabase and would like to know your opinion about the Duresses main. Whether its good to have Duress to get rid of their counter or another threat which they must counter or die.

[Zir]

Mana
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [b] Volcanic Island
1 [u] Underground Sea
1 [A] Badlands
1 [u] Bayou
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual

4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [VI] Helm of Awakening

Eggs
4 [MR] Chromatic Sphere
3 [OD] Darkwater Egg
3 [OD] Shadowblood Egg

Business
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [OV] Meditate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [FD] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Ruin
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [OD] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth
SB: 1 [OV] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm

This is my list for a quite aggro-orientated meta, pre-TS. If you're playing more control decks than I am, adding 4 Duress to the main is definately a good move, but you'd have to cut back on the draw effects, seeing as Dureess is a pretty bad draw when comboing. I'd play something like this:

Mana
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [b] Volcanic Island
1 [u] Underground Sea
1 [A] Badlands
1 [u] Bayou
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [VI] Helm of Awakening

Eggs
4 [MR] Chromatic Sphere
4 [TS] Chromatic Star

Business
4 [US] Duress
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [OV] Meditate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [FD] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Ruin
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [OD] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth
SB: 1 [OV] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [TS] Grapeshot

[Daze]

As we need more decklists (and a bump), my 2 cents:


4 City of Traitors
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
1 Shadowblood Egg
4 Helm of Awakening
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Chromatic Star
2 Night's Whisper
1 Grapshot

// Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Simplify
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Firebolt
1 Infernal Contract
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Defense Grid
1 Regrowth


I cut green because I cut Land Grant. Land Grant is a nice card because it adds stom count, doesn't cost you 1 life and you can play it even if you have already played a land- this is important for Infernal Tutor. But showing your opponent your hand has been one of the worst things you can do with this deck, as far as I've seen. Your opponent just knows quite well what you want to do and which cards are your keycards. Control gains a lot off Land Grant, as does Cabal Therapy. And even if your opponent is playing neither -Land Grant gives him/her an advantage which can be game-deciding.

Without Land Grant, green is totally useless- you always get the 1 green for Simplify off the 8 Chromatics, the 4 Petals or even the LEDs. And you usually tap Bayou for black anyways.

For the 8 Chromatics, they are WAY better than the eggs because they cost 1 less and the only card the eggs are better with are the cities.

3 Tendrils is also a must-play, because we have to rely on double-Tendrils vs Control.
The Tutors have been the greatest improvement ever since they just win games. 2 LEDs + Wish/Tutor or LED+Tutor/Wish+ Helm are game because of the Iggy.
I also cut blue because I didn't like Meditate- it costs too much mana, is not fast and you don't want to rely on 4 cards because often that just isn't enough. With Meditate gone, blue felt strange in the deck and I'm testing Nights Whisper (again...) atm. I also test the 2nd Iggy main because it happens that you don't have enough red to keep the cycle going or you have the Iggy in the hand you want to discard for LED.
Another option is Rite of the Flame, since we could need even more acceleration, but sadly it's a little bit offcolour...
As for the Whispers, mb they Brainstorms are better, but another card that probably belongs MD is Grapeshot. It's just great against Meddling Mage and it can "replace" up to 3 missing storm-copies (we have an answer to Lacky, STRIKE!).

The manabase has suffered a little bit since I play 4 Bloodstained Mires, which is a problem because of Needle, maybe I'll again replace 2 of them with Polluteds. A great improvement on the other hand are the basic swamps- with all those Loamdecks rising and Wasteland still being a problem for the deck, especially in multiples, Basics often felt so god damned good...

I've not really changed the SB since I was too concerned with the MD -only Grapeshot has been a card that had to be in there. Empty the Warrens could also be considered (especially if you are running Rite of Flame) -it can win games where you don't have the mana to get your stormcount high enough, maybe it's worth going for.

Against Control, relying on double-Tendrils has been the best plan so far- Duress is the best option after that, because Grid is often too slow and Xantid Swarm is easily hated (yeah, mb they Side the hate out/have none, but we just cut green, you know...).
Thoughts? :P (and excuse my English... )

[APriestOfGix]

If somebody legitly wants to talk about this deck you can't just kill it back off, if you did, then kill off Slavebringer...


OK, so i'm wondering how many duals i should run, is green really worth it?