[Podcast] Everyday Eternal #5 - Therapy Session

[Koby]

In episode five of #EverydayEternal, Matt Pavlic (sdematt), Jacob Kory (Koby), Sean O’Brien (nedleeds), and Sam Craven (theCrav) discuss one of the most loved and most hated cards in legacy, Cabal Therapy. We discuss several different scenarios involving Cabal therapy and what card you might want to name most upon resolution of your Cabal Therapy. We also discuss the upcoming release of the Magic 2014 core set and its potential impact on eternal formats. If you play buzzword bingo, get ready for a good show because this episode is strictly better than a skill intensive mirror match, and that sure does seem good.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4099

Comments? Accolades?
Discuss below!

[Megadeus]

Listening Now. Man this is a fun one. Also I like how you guys have the notes like the reference to the theoretical Deadguy list in the show. More stuff like this would be great.

Edit: RED HEADED BOB MARLEY!!! LOL. That guy plays the weirdest decks...

[Shawon]

Lots of awkward... *pauses*... pauses. Just my first initial thoughts 2 minutes in, mind you, still listening.

[Koby]

Lots of awkward... *pauses*... pauses. Just my first initial thoughts 2 minutes in, mind you, still listening.

Haha there was a lot of content edited out, since it was either goof ups, tangents, or Sean rambling about foreign cards and GRVs again. I'm mostly to blame for this one - my computer systems are in flux. We're making due while I call in from Starbucks WiFi.

[Whippoorwill]

If you play buzzword bingo, get ready for a good show because this episode is strictly better than a skill intensive mirror match, and that sure does seem good.

That's a thing?

[nedleeds]

Given the technical mishaps and various internet explosions during this one I'm amazed it actually got finished. Koby recorded on 8-track over a 9600 baud modem. Our call dropped at least 3 times. Sam once again deserves a helping of blow and hookers.

[L0cke]

Something I want to see (or rather hear) every week or every other week is perhaps a short segment on the coolest, or most fun, or just plain weird decks (or plays) you guys have seen at local tournaments each since the last podcast. A lot of interesting things show up at smaller events that may never top-8 a Starcity or GP, and I'd bet a lot of people would enjoy hearing tales about them more regularly.

[Shawon]

I think Sean/nedleeds made a great point that might have gotten unnoticed in the conversation, given the awkward pausings, that you probably shouldn't be playing Cabal Therapy if you don't have knowledge of all the netdecks like in SCG. Format knowledge is key, as demonstrated by Koby when putting the unknown deck on Cloudpost mentioned in one of the hypotheticals regarding a Tropical Island -> Top.

The weirdest and funniest pause I've heard so far is when Koby loudly said "A big Goyf is a big problem."


Something I want to see (or rather hear) every week or every other week is perhaps a short segment on the coolest, or most fun, or just plain weird decks (or plays) you guys have seen at local tournaments each since the last podcast. A lot of interesting things show up at smaller events that may never top-8 a Starcity or GP, and I'd bet a lot of people would enjoy hearing tales about them more regularly.

You could just read a Caleb Durward article to get that info.

Speaking of the devil, another Cabal Therapy-related article podcasters should link on the website, if you guys are going to link Carsten Kotter's, is Durward's take on using Cabal Therapy, also called "Therapy Session." (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/)

[Koby]

Not sure why the link wasn't put up *ahem Sam* but the Carsten Kotter article was the one I inferred to during the podcast.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26464_Legacy-Shell-Game.html

[alphastryk]

So my thoughts on the first Deadguy Ale scenario (Misty->Island->Ponder->shuffle) - even if our opponent is on SnT-> Omni, they probably don't have all the pieces to kill us next turn, given the Ponder->shuffle. I think playing out mom and double therapying after we get more information from the opponent's turn two is how I would approach it. I'm certainly not going to guess and just lose to ANT or High Tide because I bricked the first discard spell and they can answer the second.

Esperblade Scenario 1 - Trop-> SDT is very obviously 12-post to me (though I do see it weekly), probably with limited colored sources and spells in both colors in their opening hand. They probably do have a green card (Crop Rotation or Primeval Titan) in hand, or there is no reason to get the dual. If we care, we might be able to snag that to slow the Glimmerpost bleeding (is that viable?) they also might have maindeck Tabernacle which could be problematic, but maybe FoW is more relevant so we can just jam our threats.

Just my thoughts

[(nameless one)]

You heard it here first: Thunderbluffs.dec is gonna be the tits Post-Theros

[phazonmutant]

Awesome podcast! Keep up the good work.
Busted out laughing at the awkward pause, then Koby belting out "A big Goyf is a big problem". Thanks for your insight, Koby :tongue:

Some thoughts on the Therapy scenarios:
Scenario 1 : I would have 100% snap-named Brainstorm, so I'm a little surprised that it didn't even get mentioned. Brainstorm is by far the most important cantrip in all of the combo decks and it's not especially likely that S&S and Omni will actually just have the turn 2 (especially after shuffling off Ponder!), which gives you a chance to see their hand then take what's relevant next turn with Mother of Runes without fear of them hiding pieces. Also, it still could be ANT or a control deck as you guys mentioned, so it's at least not 0% to hit against them like naming Show and Tell is. You actually argued this exact point in the scenario that went Delta, Probe, Ponder.

Scenario Delta, Probe, Ponder : This has got to be >80% ANT. Maybe 10% Omnishow, 10% other (including TinFins, Thresh, etc). Given that they're likely to be on ANT, by far the best card to name is Lion's Eye Diamond. If they ever draw into Past in Flames, that Infernal Tutor is suddenly live again, whereas almost none of the listed decks play IGG. They could also be playing Burning Wish which could lead to a quick loss if you name Infernal Tutor and they have the Wish in hand.

[thecrav]

All negatives about this episode may be blamed on me. There was a lot of Glenmorangine and Wine (sitting next to a delicious steak) inside of me.

[HammafistRoob]

In the Maverick scenario, wouldn't you want to Therapy them turn 1 naming Mother of Runes? That card is the biggest pain in the ass for Deadguy type decks, and if she becomes active, you have basically no chance at winning. I would almost never be afraid of StP here, they HAVE to use it on your mom. They run 4 removal spells so if they use one on mom(they have to) your Bob will easily take control. I would definitely fetch swamp & Therapy turn 1 on Mom in this matchup. If you play Scubland ---> Mother, you're just begging to have them drop Thalia and Wasteland you(going back to what Sean had said about protecting your manabase. I think this should be your main concern here).

I seriously don't understand why you would Therapy a Daze. Just to get a blue card out of their hand to weaken a possible FoW? The Daze is practically a dead card, why fear it? I would just jam Stoneforge with one floating. It would have been helpful if we knew how many cards they had in hand... this is a discard spell exercise.

I don't think a priest would go for a pyromancer. Young or not, he'd probably think he was a witch. Also, when are you guys gonna have your first guest? Till next time I write something shitty in your thread, stay classy.

[Koby]

Also, when are you guys gonna have your first guest?

Man it's like these questions get easier and easier to answer!
Episode 6 will have a pair of guest judges, since Sean was in a focus group on "How to get more GRVs per game?" and Sam (our esteemed editor) is busy with moving.

[HammafistRoob]

Touche salesman, I too, have an uncle.

An easier question then, what made you guys define yourselves as "a group of fun loving guys?"

Anything to do with boozeand/orbud making yall http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8 ?

[nedleeds]

I enjoyed following this episode at Legacy the next night by promptly having Cabal Therapy in my opener in my round one -- and in both games naming Show and Tell against my 12 post opponent. Then having him promptly top deck it in both games with zero library manipulation the turn after the therapy. Nothing like driving an hour for 6 minutes of uninteractive Magic.

[Megadeus]

I enjoyed following this episode at Legacy the next night by promptly having Cabal Therapy in my opener in my round one -- and in both games naming Show and Tell against my 12 post opponent. Then having him promptly top deck it in both games with zero library manipulation the turn after the therapy. Nothing like driving an hour for 6 minutes of uninteractive Magic.

Skill Game

[Shawon]

Skill Game

Drink!

[davelin]

I wouldn't have minded hearing why Cabal Therapy should be included in a deck versus say Duress or Thoughtseize. I thought it was interesting that in several of the scenarios you covered, having a Duress would've been better in your opening hand versus Therapy.

[nedleeds]

Many decks run both (as a b/w deck might), obviously if you are running hot and want to gain tempo through durdly midrange flexslots in the metagame you'd run out your point discard first (IoK, Dooress, TS) then crush face with a Therapy on your second turn.

[Koby]

I wouldn't have minded hearing why Cabal Therapy should be included in a deck versus say Duress or Thoughtseize. I thought it was interesting that in several of the scenarios you covered, having a Duress would've been better in your opening hand versus Therapy.


Many decks run both (as a b/w deck might), obviously if you are running hot and want to gain tempo through durdly midrange flexslots in the metagame you'd run out your point discard first (IoK, Dooress, TS) then crush face with a Therapy on your second turn.

I tend to agree with Sean; the question is not whether what to replace with Cabal Therapy but usually how to compliment it. There doesn't need much justification (that's French for Vindicate to astute listeners of this podcast) to run Cabal Therapy in decks that play fair and have ways to flashback. Being able to get two shots with one card is damn good. Format knowledge helps to make it hit your opponents cards. Lastly, being able to target yourself to remove cards from you hand (Storm, Reanimator) is a very underrated ability of the card compared to Duress. From the budget angle, Therapy is easier to find and afford than Thoughtseize while providing a very close analog.

[sdematt]

I agree.

If you're using Cabal Therapy in a combo sense, that's cool. But if you're the deck just running discard, Therapy helps compliment your hand disruption strategy.

I'm running Lingering Souls at the moment, so running Cabal Therapy is really, really good since you don't have to sacrifice any relevant creatures to strip hands. It's been very good.

-Matt

[HammafistRoob]

I tend to agree with Sean; the question is not whether what to replace with Cabal Therapy but usually how to compliment it. There doesn't need much justification (that's French for Vindicate to astute listeners of this podcast) to run Cabal Therapy in decks that play fair and have ways to flashback. Being able to get two shots with one card is damn good. Format knowledge helps to make it hit your opponents cards. Lastly, being able to target yourself to remove cards from you hand (Storm, Reanimator) is a very underrated ability of the card compared to Duress. From the budget angle, Therapy is easier to find and afford than Thoughtseize while providing a very close analog.

^ This. Cabal therapy also just steals games about as often as something like a Stifle/Waste package. Getting a 3for1 for one black mana, even at sorcery speed, is arguably stronger than even Ancestral Recall. Since you're guaranteed to hit 3 things you want versus drawing three random cards.

Just the other day I was playing GWb Maverick against ANT. He wins the roll, plays Ponder turn one, Probe + kills me turn two after I wasted him. Ouch. I side in my 4th Thalia, 2nd Teeg, and 4 Thoughtseize. I open a clear keeper with Savannah, Catacombs, GSZ, Seize, Thalia x2, KotR. I thoughtseize turn one and see Delta, Therapy x2, LED x2, Brainstorm, Ponder. After tanking for a bit I nab Ponder, hoping his Brainstorm whiffs on a shuffle effect. He proceeds to Therapy on Thalia turn one, I draw a blank and pass praying to live one more turn. But I don't, he Brainstorms into the actual nuts and kills me turn 2. I'm pretty sure ~90% of storm pilots are smart enough to make this play, there's really nothing else to name here when you don't know their hand but you know they pack 4 Thalia in the 75.

Back in the day (2008maybe), I messed around with a weird ass UB Tide Variant. The only MD black spells were 3 Duress, 4 Therapy and I also had 4 Peek and 4 FoW. It was actually kinda brutalizing and extremely fun. With the discard slowing them down, I would easily have 5 lands most times I would combo. Anyways, now that Gitaxian Probe exists, Therapy has finally gotten the attention it deserves. Is there even a deck that wouldn't play 4 Probe when playing 4 Therapy(other than Dredge& Zombardment, the decks that focus more on the Flashback of Cabal)? It would probably be wrong.

(Yes I like commas)



I'm running Lingering Souls at the moment, so running Cabal Therapy is really, really good since you don't have to sacrifice any relevant creatures to strip hands. It's been very good.

-Matt

No doubt. I assume your talking about The Rock, where you also have a plethora of small utility guys like Bob and DRS. Oftentimes in such decks, you don't mind saccing a Bob after he did his job and your lifetotal starts to dwindle. Or if you have to get rid of a card you know they're holding, sac that Deathrite after he accelerated you for a bit. I hate watching people play these decks and never flashing therapy back when they should because they are afraid to sac amazing creatures. It's like wtf hello? Wake up? Half your deck is amazing creatures, you'll get more.

[monovfox]

>be me

>hear "this could replace Kiln Fiend in the nivmagus deck"

>attempt to write angry comment on why Kiln Fiend is the best card ever

>End up writing green text

[thefringthing]

Could we get some more Skype sound effects going off constantly in the next show? That was my favourite part.

Good show, though. This is the first episode I've listened to. Audio quality is a little rough, but good job avoiding dead air and fine discussion.

[sdematt]

Could we get some more Skype sound effects going off constantly in the next show? That was my favourite part.

Good show, though. This is the first episode I've listened to. Audio quality is a little rough, but good job avoiding dead air and fine discussion.

It's because Koby was using his phone at a Starbuck's to call in. Not as good as a headset and mic. We're just having logistical issues at the moment.

You should listen to the rest of our episodes.

-Matt

[saspook]

This was a good episode. It was interesting to see just how cautious some of the commentators are compared to the others. Maximizing "hitting something in their hand", vs "naming something that matters" is situationally depended, but people tend to skew one way or the other.

[thefringthing]

I take back what I said previously. The best part is how you need to turn one blind Therapy Show and Tell every time no matter what.

[Koby]

I take back what I said previously. The best part is how you need to turn one blind Therapy Show and Tell every time no matter what.

I mean, have you seen the deck we're playing - it's the definition of "fair".

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Finally got to listen to this one, good work, interesting to listen to and good enough quality to take with me on the subway (yay!).

One thing I found striking in the discussion against Storm (well, Delta->Island, Probe, Ponder I think it was) is that you thought a Storm player would probably have kept open Brainstorm if he'd seen the Therapy. I likely wouldn't do that unless I had an Infernal to hide on top of my library (LED obviously goes straight into play unless you're holding ADecay) because if you're calling Brainstorm with your Therapy, the actual important cards - the fast mana - is perfectly safe. Even more so as I believe a lot of players would reason exactly like you did and not call Brainstorm anyway.
In addition, I think it's correct to always assume they're on Storm. If they're on OmniTell instead, they almost definitely can't kill you on their turn given how the deck looks so you'll be able to Therapy them for real afterwards anyway.

Also, thanks for plugging my work! Much appreciated! :)