[Brainstorm] Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker & Shadowborn Apostle

[NeZ]

Hey guys, today I thought about a EDH deck using Shirei as my general with some kind of Shadowborn Apostle Combo.

The plan is obviously to bring a bunch of Apostles into play at once and sac them for profit even in my opponents' turns.


// Commander
1 [BOK] Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker

// Lands
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
35 [BRB] Swamp

// Creatures
1 [ISD] Skirsdag High Priest
1 [M13] Bloodthrone Vampire
1 [ROE] Cadaver Imp
1 [DDE] Carrion Feeder
1 [DDD] Deathgreeter
1 [M13] Liliana's Shade
1 [4E] Royal Assassin
1 [AVR] Blood Artist
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [M11] Reassembling Skeleton
1 [PRE] Ravenous Demon
28 [M14] Shadowborn Apostle
1 [M14] Shadowborn Demon
1 [LE] Dark Supplicant
1 [LE] Scion of Darkness
1 [MI] Spirit of the Night
1 [AVR] Harvester of Souls
1 [ISD] Reaper from the Abyss
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
1 [DDC] Abyssal Gatekeeper
1 [M14] Festering Newt
1 [M14] Bogbrew Witch
1 [ON] Rotlung Reanimator
1 [M14] Xathrid Necromancer

// Spells
1 [V09] Skullclamp
1 [DDE] Phyrexian Arena
1 [RAV] Empty the Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Eldrazi Monument
1 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding
1 [CS] Thrumming Stone
1 [SOK] Death Denied
1 [ON] Oversold Cemetery
1 [M14] Bubbling Cauldron
1 [WL] Shattered Crypt
1 [OD] Entomb
1 [PD3] Dread Return


I know it's a rough idea, but does someone have any thoughts on that?

I'm pondering about the number of Apostles I need. 28 may be too few, but I don't want to have a one-trick-pony though.

Thanks,
NeZ

[TsumiBand]

Funny you should mention it...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26263-EDH-Seizan-Perverter-of-Truth-(Demonic-Demons!)

The general was swapped about 5 times but the combo is solid.

[FTW]

If you don't want to be a 1-trick storm/drain pony then I like your general better. I went the heavy combo route, but yours looks fun too! That's how I started... fewer Shadowborns and more cool demons for more interesting lines of play. Your general works really well with this gameplan, maybe better than Balthor since it doesn't help your opponents?

Still, I think you're running too many mediocre cards in here and not enough Shadowborns. With less than 1/3 of the deck as shadowborns, you actually risk missing on Ripple 4 a lot. I would run minimum 34. And you can run some cool demons too!

My favorite demons for this style of deck:

Rune-Scarred Demon
Harvester of Souls
Reaper from the Abyss
Demon of Death's Gate
Bloodgift Demon
Kuro, Pitlord
Lord of the Void
Seizan, Perverter of Truth


Remember that if you are worried about removal, you can do EOT sac 6 apostles into Rune-Scarred Demon for some protection or recursion effect. Twilight's Call and Balthor are amazing since you can do it EOT to return everything, end step sac apostles to find some cool demon, then untap and attack with it!

Recursion:

Twilight's Call
Living Death
Balthor the Defiled
Death Denied
Elixir of Immortality


I would cut stuff like Royal Assassin, Cadaver Imp, Bogbrew Witch, Festering Newt, Liliana's Shade, Deathgreeter, and some of the other mediocre core set cards.

There's really no reason not to run lands like Cabal Coffers and Crypt of Agadeem to boost your mana and a few tutors to help you find Thrumming Stone or recursion.

[NeZ]

Funny you should mention it...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26263-EDH-Seizan-Perverter-of-Truth-(Demonic-Demons!)

The general was swapped about 5 times but the combo is solid.
That's clearly a different approach to Apostle. Not a fun way though. The important thing in a round of EDH is to provide entertainment for all 4 players while not breaking the format (you know how easy that is) or masturbating because everyone else scooped. Duel EDH btw is just stupid. My 2 cents.


If you don't want to be a 1-trick storm/drain pony then I like your general better. I went the heavy combo route, but yours looks fun too! That's how I started... fewer Shadowborns and more cool demons for more interesting lines of play. Your general works really well with this gameplan, maybe better than Balthor since it doesn't help your opponents?
Then why did you went 1-trick combo instead of 'interesting lines of play' in the first place? Could you post a deck list of how you 'started'? I'd like to see it! My point is to cheat a demon into play and muddling around without playing an insta-win combo. I want to leave my opponents a chance to get back into the game.


Still, I think you're running too many mediocre cards in here and not enough Shadowborns. With less than 1/3 of the deck as shadowborns, you actually risk missing on Ripple 4 a lot. I would run minimum 34. And you can run some cool demons too!

My favorite demons for this style of deck:

Rune-Scarred Demon
Harvester of Souls
Reaper from the Abyss
Demon of Death's Gate
Bloodgift Demon
Kuro, Pitlord
Lord of the Void
Seizan, Perverter of Truth


I would cut stuff like Royal Assassin, Cadaver Imp, Bogbrew Witch, Festering Newt, Liliana's Shade, Deathgreeter, and some of the other mediocre core set cards.
Yeah but I wanted to get the most value of Shirei while playing Apostles. Hence the mediocre choices like Liliana's Shade, Deathgreeter and Cadaver Imp. I know it's hard to have answers and recurring while sticking to your theme, but that's what Commander is all about.
Again, I am not counting on Ripple 4 as it's just a one of with no tutors at all in the deck. And I want to leave it that way. Your demon choices are pretty much the same as mine, as there are really not many black demons for this kind of deck out there.


There's really no reason not to run lands like Cabal Coffers and Crypt of Agadeem to boost your mana and a few tutors to help you find Thrumming Stone or recursion.
The main focus of this thread is of course not the lands as it's a mono color build and therefore the go-to manabase is simply not debatable as there are a few lands (Bog) you really have to play. :wink:
I should've just left it out. :smile:

I guess there aren't really many variants on how to build a EDH based on Apostles, and so far we're already at a dead end. Combo or just the same old demons over and over.

[TsumiBand]

Oh dear. Well, whatever Commander is "all about" is fortunately up to the people you're playing with, so if you don't sit across from Spikes then that's fine - I personally don't go full tilt every EDH game either, I'm currently designing a fucking fucking terrible Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch EDH thing because I'm tired of battlecruisers and decks with incidental oops-i-wins like Sedris and even WortTRM (which I tried to keep SuperJohnny, but damn it if there aren't a bunch of weird ways to go broken). So I see what you did there, and in fairness I did sort of shotgun a link. Sorry if it's unhelpful :/

I guess your stated goals are a little fuzzy though. IIUC you want to do all of the following:

* Cheat a demon into play via Apostle
* Get 'the most' out of your commander (I presume to mean 'return as many 1 power guys to play as possible')
* 'Muddle around' and let your opponents not feel like you're just assembling Voltron

So really I feel like you're looking to exploit lots of 1-or-less power creatures, presumably with Enter/Dies effects? I'm honestly not sure how 'broken' you're willing to go or which effects your playgroup frowns on, but I'll throw out things that can achieve this 1-or-less power thing and maybe you can make a command decision.

Mindwarper
Unbreathing Horde
Corrupt Court Official
Guiltfeeder
Bone Shredder

Yeah I dunno, I feel like you found most of the solid ones.

There's also the Heartless Summoning trick - this would let you undercost your fat (though they shrink too, obviously) and let you move up the curve with recursive effects - now letting you recur all manner of things with power 2 or less. Such raw, unmitigated power should never be left in the hands of one mere mortal.

Actually, unless I'm horribly mistaken, effects such as Mutilate and Black Sun's Zenith should allow you to kill your own team, and then somehow assuming your commander is/was in play for the whole shebang (Nightmare Lash and company can keep it alive or various Auras I suppose), return the lot of them to play even if their power is greater than 1 while they're in the graveyard. At least, I see no evidence to the contrary that it checks on resolution. You could then play with your Demon theme and use Bloodthirsty Ogre on creatures you control, for... some reason. Maybe you can durdle around with stacking the top card of your deck re: Putrid Cyclops but that's a lot of trouble to go through for Scry 2.

[FTW]

Then why did you went 1-trick combo instead of 'interesting lines of play' in the first place? Could you post a deck list of how you 'started'? I'd like to see it! My point is to cheat a demon into play and muddling around without playing an insta-win combo. I want to leave my opponents a chance to get back into the game.

I didn't. The original list had Seizan as a general, no combo (no Tendrils or Exsanguinate), and just cheated out demons for fun. The list is not posted on that thread anymore.

But after that, I realized I had a deck with 30+ 1/1 dorks and the worst topdecks ever. Think about it... 60% of the time or more you're topdecking land or a 1/1 that does nothing without 5 more of them in play. That is REALLY BAD if you're trying to play a long EDH game. Opponents are topdecking Sheoldred and Sun Titan and Primordials and Spelltwines and Rite of Replication you're topdecking 1/1s. Doesn't look good. I tried to mitigate that by running draw effects (Phyrexian Arena) and Seizan as a general to draw through your deck faster, but you still get owned on the symmetry.

Anyway, at that point I decided the deck had more potential for the short game than the long game and that it would be an fun to try to actually "break" Apostle by looking at degenerate engines in BW and mono B. But it did start off as a "cheat fun demons into play" interactive deck.



Yeah but I wanted to get the most value of Shirei while playing Apostles. Hence the mediocre choices like Liliana's Shade, Deathgreeter and Cadaver Imp. I know it's hard to have answers and recurring while sticking to your theme, but that's what Commander is all about.

IMO there are better 1/xs you can play if you want to milk Shirei.

Bone Shredder
Apprentice Necromancer
Blood Seeker
Crypt Rats
Epochrasite
Guul Draz Assassin
Hell's Caretaker
Hex Parasite
Necroplasm
Plaguebearer
Silent Arbiter
Thrull Parasite
Triskelion
Wight of Precinct Six


Not saying to run all of them, and Royal Assassin may be worth keeping, but as for many of the others IMO there are much better 1-power creatures you can run that give you interactivity with opponents. Cadaver Imp is OK I guess, but at that point I'd rather just put Phyrexian Reclamation in the deck to return creatures to hand and have a busted engine instead of a mediocre 1/1.



Again, I am not counting on Ripple 4 as it's just a one of with no tutors at all in the deck. And I want to leave it that way. Your demon choices are pretty much the same as mine, as there are really not many black demons for this kind of deck out there.

It's not just the ripple 4. You need enough Shadowborns to have a high enough probability of seeing 6 early and getting to keep 6 on the battlefield while opponents are interacting with you. Otherwise the card is pretty much useless, barring random interactions with the Scion of Darkness engine. I think 28 is too low for that. It would suck to have 4 Shadowborns on the board sitting around and doing almost nothing while you're in topdeck mode and opponents are doing crazy things. I tested it out a bit and kept finding I wanted more Shadowborns. My combo list runs over 40 but I think you'd be fine somewhere in mid 30s.

As for demons, our lists had some relevant differences. Rune-Scarred is amazing, since you can immediately tutor up Twilight's Call or Eldrazi Monument if you suspect the opponent is going to kill your board and now you have protection. Even in a non-combo list I would often want to find him first. Kuro is also pretty amazing, letting you wipe out multiple creatures at once. I'd highly recommend both.



The main focus of this thread is of course not the lands as it's a mono color build and therefore the go-to manabase is simply not debatable as there are a few lands (Bog) you really have to play. :wink:
I should've just left it out. :smile:

Yeah, I just wanted to point out that some lands (like Crypt of Agadeem) which are normally not auto-includes would be really strong in this sort of build. Also, because so many topdecks are 1/1 dorks, having "value lands" like Bog or Buried Ruin just gives you more fun tools to work with.

I guess there aren't really many variants on how to build a EDH based on Apostles, and so far we're already at a dead end. Combo or just the same old demons over and over.[/QUOTE]