Jace reprint and the effect on Legacy

[alphacat]

It has just been spoiled that Jace 2.0 is now in FTV:20. That means that the availability of the card has shot up considerably. I think it will also have a measurable effect on the overall Legacy metagame, as Jace is a barrier of entry for quite a few decks such as Stoneblade, BUG, Miracle. Do you guys think having it be reprinted will increase the popularity of the aforementioned decks?

Additionally, how will FTV20 affect the price of WW Jace? I suspect that foil Jace will not be affected by much, whereas regular Jace will drop to $100 or below. Any market experts want to chime in on what you think would happen?

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/358663491604856832/photo/1

[Mewens]

Is FTV:20 unlimited print or something? Because previous FTVs have not impacted price in any significant way for chase cards, iirc.

[Megadeus]

It hit Maze of Ith a bit. Otherwise I dont really know. I know Commander Arsenal hurt Loyal Retainers a bit as well.

[alphacat]

Reprints, even in limited amount have been proven to affect prices. The first FTV set affected Berserk, and every one since has affected something.

However, if FTV has proven anything, it's that the actual reprinted card will be quite a bit cheaper than the original version. Additionally, I think the increase in availability of Jace is what will affect Legacy. Even though FTV has always been relatively limited in quantity, having a guaranteed Jace in every box will mean that there is going to be that many more Jaces out there. It will allow people who want one to track one down much more easily.

[nedleeds]

Reprints, even in limited amount have been proven to affect prices. The first FTV set affected Berserk, and every one since has affected something.

Yeah. Beta Berserk went up. Thanks FTV and your shitty art and awful foils!

http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Limited+Edition+Beta/Berserk/

[Megadeus]

To be fair though, Berserk and Maze of Ith see MUCH less play than Jace. I do not think that outside of maybe Senseis Top has FTV had such a widely and heavily played card. (I guess Sol Ring)

[nedleeds]

To be fair though, Berserk and Maze of Ith see MUCH less play than Jace. I do not think that outside of maybe Senseis Top has FTV had such a widely and heavily played card. (I guess Sol Ring)

Right so the demand is higher.

My Russian Jace's will only go up in value. A multi-thousand print foil run in english only won't affect the price -- the demand for Jace is too high. Just like if From the Vaults lands hadn't been a steaming pile of shit and instead was just the 10 dual lands -- revised duels would be sitting where they are and the foils would be hitting the 200-500 mark (or maybe higher, depending on the foil zealots)

[anonymos]

I'm just disappointed that it means I won't be able to get a FTV 20 for a "reasonable" price now. I figure'd it would be full of nostalgia stuff. At least I get the art book from the kickstarter earlier in the year.

[alphacat]

Yeah. Beta Berserk went up. Thanks FTV and your shitty art and awful foils!

http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Limited+Edition+Beta/Berserk/

Well, I did say that the more exclusive versions (foil/foreign, won't be affected much). A/B are more comparable to foils, and U are more comparable to regular printing. On the other hand, even the chart you linked to shows that its price went down after the initial reprint was released. Fact is, all three versions dropped in price immediately after FTV Exiled.


I'm just disappointed that it means I won't be able to get a FTV 20 for a "reasonable" price now. I figure'd it would be full of nostalgia stuff. At least I get the art book from the kickstarter earlier in the year.

On the other hand, you'd be able to buy the other 19 cards for a bargain price.

[Aggro_zombies]

The nice thing now is, if you sit down across from a Legacy player and there's an obviously curved card in his deck, it's probably a Jace TMS.

Also free judge call, but that's beside the point.

[KobeBryan]

Reprints, even in limited amount have been proven to affect prices. The first FTV set affected Berserk, and every one since has affected something.

However, if FTV has proven anything, it's that the actual reprinted card will be quite a bit cheaper than the original version. Additionally, I think the increase in availability of Jace is what will affect Legacy. Even though FTV has always been relatively limited in quantity, having a guaranteed Jace in every box will mean that there is going to be that many more Jaces out there. It will allow people who want one to track one down much more easily.

tell that to tarmogoyf

[alphacat]

tell that to tarmogoyf

The difference here is that Goyf is a MYTHIC in an extremely limited set. Now, note that MM is already rather scarce, factor in the fact that opening a specific mythic is probably 1 out of 5 boxes or so, then you will understand why the increase in supply isn't that much. Compare that to, let's suppose equally as limited FTV set, but one Jace is GUARANTEED per box.

[nedleeds]

And FTV is available at Wal-Mart? Please.

[nedleeds]

The Hymns might end up being the most valuable thing in here. Anyone who wants one -- wants 4 and there are no other foil Hymns.

[dunk]

No effect on Legacy unless at least either of Force of Will or Wasteland is in, too.

Big effect on Modo though, because Jace becomes very affordable now.

[mcfarland]

The nice thing now is, if you sit down across from a Legacy player and there's an obviously curved card in his deck, it's probably a Jace TMS.

Also free judge call, but that's beside the point.

The FTV foiling process (as well as the new M14), while pretty ugly, doesn't actually bend much at all. They've pretty much eliminated the warping, so that's a plus.

[Gheizen64]

Meletis gonna be WG legendary dual, calling it.

[phonics]

The difference here is that Goyf is a MYTHIC in an extremely limited set. Now, note that MM is already rather scarce, factor in the fact that opening a specific mythic is probably 1 out of 5 boxes or so, then you will understand why the increase in supply isn't that much. Compare that to, let's suppose equally as limited FTV set, but one Jace is GUARANTEED per box.

I think that it will probably work out to be like tarmogoyf. The price of the product is going to be adjusted accordingly, so for the most part people wont be getting it for ~40$. I thought FTV releases are much less than something like modern masters, last time I went to my lgs a couple days ago they still had MM for sale, FTV are sold out months in advance. It would probably have to be reprinted elspeth v tezzeret style if they want to make it more available.

[saspook]

The Hymns might end up being the most valuable thing in here. Anyone who wants one -- wants 4 and there are no other foil Hymns.

Compare this to FTV Realms, a set where people had Maze of Ith as incentive to crack the box open. Here I suspect that a very large percentage of the FTV sets will be opened up and the non Jace cards sold off to recover the cost of the box. This will put more Hymm's into circulation and they should be relatively cheap for a period before climbing back up. Ancient Tombs are $9.00 FTV or Tempest.

[Memnoch]

I for one, welcome our new foil Hymn overlords.

I'll be picking up 4 of the JTMS as well. Unless the foiling process looks like ass. (Even then, I probably still will :rolleyes: )

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I just finished my playset of Jace and I did in fact think for a moment or two on the chances of it being reprinted in the boxed set of FtV: 20. I figured either way, price would go up, and the playablility is most important, not the "pimp" that a special form of foil provides. I do have the funds to purchase 4 FtV: 20 boxed sets, but I cannot find them. Also, I'm not entirely sure they are worth it. Hymn to Tourach and Impulse, while good cards, and paired with Jace, is it worth what they are going for on the secondary market for me? Especially since I already have 4 Jace? As I said, I do have the funds, but cannot find them on the primary market, and ebay and the like are making the price reasonably unreasonable. Any thoughts? Also, I would bet there to be at least one blue fetch among the 20 cards...Either Strand or Delta (or are they on the reserved list? I thought jace might've been, but clearly not). Help and thoughts on the matter are appreciated.

-ABC

[nedleeds]

Compare this to FTV Realms, a set where people had Maze of Ith as incentive to crack the box open. Here I suspect that a very large percentage of the FTV sets will be opened up and the non Jace cards sold off to recover the cost of the box. This will put more Hymm's into circulation and they should be relatively cheap for a period before climbing back up. Ancient Tombs are $9.00 FTV or Tempest.

Yeah that's actually a really good comparison. I didn't know those foil Tombs were so cheap. Maybe there are more foil haters like myself than I give the world credit for. Heck I'd argue Tomb is more played than Hymn (if you roll EDH and Vintage in).

[Mr.C]

I just finished my playset of Jace and I did in fact think for a moment or two on the chances of it being reprinted in the boxed set of FtV: 20. I figured either way, price would go up, and the playablility is most important, not the "pimp" that a special form of foil provides. I do have the funds to purchase 4 FtV: 20 boxed sets, but I cannot find them. Also, I'm not entirely sure they are worth it. Hymn to Tourach and Impulse, while good cards, and paired with Jace, is it worth what they are going for on the secondary market for me? Especially since I already have 4 Jace? As I said, I do have the funds, but cannot find them on the primary market, and ebay and the like are making the price reasonably unreasonable. Any thoughts? Also, I would bet there to be at least one blue fetch among the 20 cards...Either Strand or Delta (or are they on the reserved list? I thought jace might've been, but clearly not). Help and thoughts on the matter are appreciated.

-ABC

Buy the DCI Foil Impulses. They look way nicer.

[The Treefolk Master]

I now have an affordable foil Jace to finish foiling my EDH deck; hooray. The 20 symbol is horrid (seriously, couldn't they come up with something nicer?), but the price tag on a WWK foil jace is sadly out of my budget.

[mishima_kazuya]

No effect on Legacy unless at least either of Force of Will or Wasteland is in, too.

Big effect on Modo though, because Jace becomes very affordable now.

Still waiting on Lion's Eye Diamond to be a MOCS promo. :frown:


Also, I'm still hoping for foil Control Magic for my cube.

[Aggro_zombies]

The FTV foiling process (as well as the new M14), while pretty ugly, doesn't actually bend much at all. They've pretty much eliminated the warping, so that's a plus.
Did they change it? My previous FtV cards basically curl into little balls, and I live in the desert, so it's not a humidity issue.

[TsumiBand]

The FTV foiling process (as well as the new M14), while pretty ugly, doesn't actually bend much at all. They've pretty much eliminated the warping, so that's a plus.

Are you kidding? I just played m14 Sealed today with my work friends, and I definitely had a foil Groundshaker Sliver, and it was pretty obvious at times where it was at.

Anyway, previous releases go to show that these reprints don't have to mean anything; it's Jace, so it will be expensive. But now the WWK one is worth $X and the FTV one is worth $N and they don't have to have anything to do with each other because reasons.

[Aggro_zombies]

and they don't have to have anything to do with each other because reasons.
Reasons:

1) FtV foiling is ugly as hell.

2) The FtV:20 expansion symbol looks like ass.

3) FtV foils curl into little tubes that are better suited to snorting cocaine than playing Constructed.

[kaiserruhsam]

Surprised he didn't get new art, especially considering the easter egg.

[Megadeus]

People in a LGS's facebook group speculating that FTV foil Jace is going to be 200+ dollars :facepalm:

[TsumiBand]

Reasons:

1) FtV foiling is ugly as hell.

2) The FtV:20 expansion symbol looks like ass.

3) FtV foils curl into little tubes that are better suited to snorting cocaine than playing Constructed.

None of that matters because they are both Jace the Mind Sculptor. It is a legal Magic card with the same text as Jace the Mind Sculptor; it could have a still frame from When Harry Met Sally as the art, a swastika as the expansion symbol and disintegrate if left unsleeved for more than 15 seconds, and none of that matters because it's Jace. If people had a real problem with the aesthetics of a card, no one would have ever played Proxy Vintage with white bordered shitty looking faded Swamps that had "Timetwister" written over the art. If it functions as JTMS and it is tournament-legal, it's worth whatever the fuck people will pay.

[Aggro_zombies]

None of that matters because they are both Jace the Mind Sculptor. It is a legal Magic card with the same text as Jace the Mind Sculptor; it could have a still frame from When Harry Met Sally as the art, a swastika as the expansion symbol and disintegrate if left unsleeved for more than 15 seconds, and none of that matters because it's Jace. If people had a real problem with the aesthetics of a card, no one would have ever played Proxy Vintage with white bordered shitty looking faded Swamps that had "Timetwister" written over the art. If it functions as JTMS and it is tournament-legal, it's worth whatever the fuck people will pay.
Well, sure. But people might not be willing to pay the same price as, say, a foil Worldwake Jace for the reasons I outlined. It'll still be worth money, it just doesn't have to be the same amount of money.

[TsumiBand]

Well, sure. But people might not be willing to pay the same price as, say, a foil Worldwake Jace for the reasons I outlined. It'll still be worth money, it just doesn't have to be the same amount of money.

That's... that's what I said. One JTMS is worth X, and the other is worth N. But they don't have to correlate or affect each other, like, at all. The game treats them as the same card, sure, but IRL they are separate - and not just separate, but unique.

I mean Tarmogoyf is proof enough of that - the "mid price" Future Sight one is on tcgplayer.com for 125 and the MMA one is 140. They are unique items in spite of the way the rules of the game treat them, and so each one has a value that can be assessed on two axes - individually as literally separate items, but dependent on their 'mutual' in-game relevance and power as if they were really the same item. Which sucks.

Insert "hurp durp don't like it go play checkers get better job hurp ma durp" argument. Yeah I know about all that noise. I really don't care anymore, I've put the notion of owning any such cards out of my head for as long as certain things remain constant in my life - I don't think that excludes me from finding the practice deplorable though.

EDIT - And actually if I go to SCG and look at prices, they are both at 150 right now. It's a great day for America everybody

[apple713]

It hit Maze of Ith a bit. Otherwise I dont really know. I know Commander Arsenal hurt Loyal Retainers a bit as well.

the reason it hurt is becasue the demand for those cards is much less.

With FTV series you can compare it to tarmogoyf reprinting....except that instead of paying 10$ for a pack and a chance to rip 1 you are now paying like 200$ for a set of FTV 20 (cause stores will gouge) and you are guaranteed one.

because they increase the price of FTV the price of Jace doesnt drop.

not to mention the foiling process on FTV actually ruins the card for me. IMO it not really pimping... it more like you are degrading your deck... just my view

[ivanpei]

The ftv jaces might start high, but will eventually drop slightly to equal non foil workwake or slightly less than worldwake non foil. This is because ftv foils are hideous and pimpers stay away from ftv foils like the plague.

Also due to the warping issue, regular legacy players still prefer non foil original jaces. Its like how original non-foils are worth more than foul prerelease versions. I dont see much change Jace prices since its such a staple. It'll drop probably 20 dollars initially imo. Anyway its great for the format andwill retard jace price increases for a little while. Hopefully it will draw interest into the legacy format, though i suspect most of the jaces will end up in edh/commader decks since its a staple there as well.

[Dzra]

Its like how original non-foils are worth more than foul prerelease versions.

A typo has never been more true.

[lyracian]

I do not particularly like foils so only keep the new art cards anyway so assuming the local shop honours my pre-paid order at $120 then I shall sell JTMS and get 19 free cards! :smile:

Even if they are a short run of bad foils it is still more Jace's in circulation and allows more people to play Legacy magic (even if the people buying it trade them off to those wanting to play). I use Impulse in my Mono-blue Control deck so I am glad to see the "Mom Art" on a card I will use.

[Norm]

A typo has never been more true.

My thoughts exactly.

[YamiJoey]

I like that I will be able to get a Jace 'on the cheap'. Now to find the other three, and possibly offload my FTV version for value and a regular Jace. They have changed the foiling process on the FTV, so I may want to keep it.

[Barook]

Big effect on Modo though, because Jace becomes very affordable now.

How are FTV releases handled on Modo? Limited release like Modern Masters?

[pryite199]

How are FTV releases handled on Modo? Limited release like Modern Masters?

For a limited time you can buy as many as you want from the store.

[apple713]

I now have an affordable foil Jace to finish foiling my EDH deck; hooray. The 20 symbol is horrid (seriously, couldn't they come up with something nicer?), but the price tag on a WWK foil jace is sadly out of my budget.


Reasons:

1) FtV foiling is ugly as hell.

2) The FtV:20 expansion symbol looks like ass.

3) FtV foils curl into little tubes that are better suited to snorting cocaine than playing Constructed.


For a limited time you can buy as many as you want from the store.

would this be a good time to acquire a set of 4?

[dunk]

would this be a good time to acquire a set of 4?

Are you talking about Mtgo? There for sure.

Paper is a bit more complicated, though. Tarmogoyf saw a reprint and rose, thanks to the pushed demand. I could see the same happening to Jace...

[Kayradis]

Still. I'd rather play a WWK NON-foil JTMS than a FTV:20 JTMS.
Any trust fund baby that want an expensive card can just get his parents to buy him 4 FTV:20 box and be all proud.
I have the same opinion on MMA Goyfs.

It's like saying a reproduction of a Picasso is worth as much or more as the dammed original.
End Rant.

It wont have a major impact on the format other than the fact that now I will be able to call Judge over the fact that I can spot the foil JTMS in my opponent's deck.

Screw FTV products.

[YamiJoey]

Still. I'd rather play a WWK NON-foil JTMS than a FTV:20 JTMS.
Any trust fund baby that want an expensive card can just get his parents to buy him 4 FTV:20 box and be all proud.
I have the same opinion on MMA Goyfs.

It's like saying a reproduction of a Picasso is worth as much or more as the dammed original.
End Rant.

It wont have a major impact on the format other than the fact that now I will be able to call Judge over the fact that I can spot the foil JTMS in my opponent's deck.

Screw FTV products.

MMA Goyfs are more expensive on eBay. Only by around £5, but if you're getting the cheaper ones then you get Future Sight. Also, any "Trust fund baby" will be getting foil WWK ones and laugh at you with your damaged chod. Don't get elitist about this shit, it's good that people can get various forms of the cards they want. I want a foil Jace, now I can have a slightly cheaper version by having a 20 on the right hand side instead of a cross. Deal.

[Barook]

For a limited time you can buy as many as you want from the store.

If they included FoW as well, they would make an astronomic amount of money with MODO sales alone.

[apple713]

If they included FoW as well, they would an astronomic amount of money with MODO sales alone.

in fact, people might actually start buying into MODO if they did something smart like that

[Barook]

in fact, people might actually start buying into MODO if they did something smart like that
I would buy at least 4 boxes if that was the case. But when was the last time Wizards was smart?

They could easily do an Exiler (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Magic_Online_Deck_Series) style deck that includes a single FoW. That would immediately limit the price FoW can fetch.

[dunk]

Force of Will is on Modo's reserved list ( it's just an imaginary list by Worth Wollpert ) and I'm very sure that Wotc won't put infinite money in the box. I really hope for Rishadan Port, which may be less important than force but is why too scarce for it's actual playability.

I wouldn't be too surprised if all the remaining spoilers were 1-3$ cards, maybe throw in another 20-40§ as a bone, but Jace def restricts a lot of possible options.