Theros thread

[Vestar]

This is the worst and most boring set I have seen since kamigawa. I registered just to say this.

[Dice_Box]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Commune-with-the-Gods-Theros-Spoiler.jpg

Digs for relevant creatures, Aluren and puts Cabal Therapy and lands in the yard (feed your own Deathrite).

Sounds like something Aluren can utilize.I think Aluren would have more luck with this:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=213739&type=card

P.S. I changed your image due to size. Hope you do not mind.

Edit:
Just noticed that the other one fetches an Enchantment... Haha now I feel silly.

[Megadeus]

It also costs one less mana

[Dice_Box]

I know that, but it only gives you one card. That was the reason I was suggesting the other. But without the Enchantment clause I will say that the newer card will be better.

[DragoFireheart]

Enchantress might like that card. Can grab everything relevant in their deck.

[Megadeus]

Meh in a combo deck you care less about card advantage and more about card quality. If I can get similar card quality or better in a two mana card over a three mana card I'll take the two

[Wilkin]

Enchantress might like that card. Can grab everything relevant in their deck.

Perhaps. And whatever enchantments they don't put in their hand...they can replenish it back to play.

[Umezete]

Well to be fair theros has 1 card that can make it in legacy as ashen rider will for the most part be a strict upgrade from angel of despair.

Rest of it is boring with maybe 1 fringe playable here or there, but yeah the set is very unexciting from a competitive standpoint. Though I think we've been a tad spoiled with large sets lately with snaps/geist/delver in innistrad and deathrite/abrupt decay in rtr. Its kinda nice to have a whole set and not have the format turned on its head with it. Especially since most the changes in legacy lately (omi-tell aside) have been in just getting strictly better creatures department.

[Sasan]

Well to be fair theros has 1 card that can make it in legacy as ashen rider will for the most part be a strict upgrade from angel of despair.

Rest of it is boring with maybe 1 fringe playable here or there, but yeah the set is very unexciting from a competitive standpoint. Though I think we've been a tad spoiled with large sets lately with snaps/geist/delver in innistrad and deathrite/abrupt decay in rtr. Its kinda nice to have a whole set and not have the format turned on its head with it. Especially since most the changes in legacy lately (omi-tell aside) have been in just getting strictly better creatures department.

I cannot agree more. I am happy that we can relax and take a breath from the massive changes the last sets have brought to us.

[Richard Cheese]

I cannot agree more. I am happy that we can relax and take a breathe from the massive changes the last sets have brought to us.

Doesn't mean we can't still bitch about it!

[clavio]

I cannot agree more. I am happy that we can relax and take a breathe from the massive changes the last sets have brought to us.

YEP. Printing Legacy playable cards is not always a good thing.

[luckme10]

It's not like going fully historical was an option anyway. I suspect the 2WW white sorcery "Buttfucking 12-year-old Boys" didn't test very well with their 12-year-old boys audience.



They could be more subtle than this:

Call the Younglings XXX:u:
Sorcery
Tap X target Youngling creatures. If at least one of them is Human, take an extra turn after this one for each Youngling tapped this way.

Now that's a common card I could get behind!

[Malakai]

I will be playing a couple Swan Song in my board, but that's about it.

[TsumiBand]

I cannot agree more. I am happy that we can relax and take a breath from the massive changes the last sets have brought to us.

Yeah I thought the whole point of this Eternal format thing was to buy one deck one time and maybe catch 1-3 cards from a new set every once in a while. I'm not terribly fond of the idea that Legacy should endure as much "rotation" as Standard. I know nothing actually rotates, but it sure gets pushed out. As far as I'm concerned, Goblin Guide 'rotated' Jackal Pup right the fuck out, amirite

[Barook]

As far as I'm concerned, Goblin Guide 'rotated' Jackal Pup right the fuck out, amirite
If we go by that, then Goyf rotated out a good chunk of Legacy's creature base.

[TsumiBand]

If we go by that, then Goyf rotated out a good chunk of Legacy's creature base.

Indeed.

Who mourns for Watchwolf? None, for the list of the fallen is too great.

[joven]

If we go by that, then Goyf rotated out a good chunk of Legacy's creature base.

Yes and I somewhat hate it for that.

[Humphrey]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29785&type=card
I still miss him :cry:

also:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=31825&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29777&type=card


What I just noticed. Do you remember, when Bestow was playable?
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5139&type=card

[Lord Seth]

I'll be interested in how much play Swan Song sees. I don't think it'll see maindeck play, but it definitely seems a good sideboard card against most combo decks.

[Lemnear]

I'll be interested in how much play Swan Song sees. I don't think it'll see maindeck play, but it definitely seems a good sideboard card against most combo decks.

Yeah it's good against combo but I'm more afraid that it's EVEN BETTER IN blue combo decks like Show & Tell as well as Reanimator.

Feels like the mental-misstep-Dilemma

[Barook]

Yeah it's good against combo but I'm more afraid that it's EVEN BETTER IN blue combo decks like Show & Tell as well as Reanimator.

Feels like the mental-misstep-Dilemma
It's probably going to see play in the sideboards of control and combo since those don't care much about the token. As for Tempo, the token somewhat clashes with the concept of resource denial.

I don't think it's comparable to MM which was required to be played by pretty much every deck. Being actually blue instead of free already limits it.

It's rather the good old "let's print a card against blue and make blue the best color to use it in"-case - basically, business as usual. Thalia was a fluke in that regard.

[TsumiBand]

Whatever they'll just print more and more gold cards with Green in them that say "-this- can't be countered" and at some point we will see a critical mass of Better-than-Stable-Stags at which point everyone who hates stack interactions will just play that deck FTW.

In this way, Blue will become this over-preachy self-regulating self-aggrandizing color that only works with itself and only interacts with itself. Meanwhile people that get weird shit like "#onboardTricks" tattooed on their thigh will just reach for their uncounterable GW/x beats deck full of indestructible Beasts and burn spells and shit.

No, I don't actually know what I'm talking about either, I'm just waiting for my adderall to kick in before I go to the Theros prerelease.

I do want to say though that even if you're being ironic Barook, really Thalia isn't a fluke, right - she's in precisely the right color and does exactly what more good general purpose hatebears should do. Taxing is way underdeveloped as a competitive strategy for White aggro-control and they would do well to print more good White things that attempt to more solidly define a prison-aggro strategy. IMO it's one of the only other ways of creating a true control deck outside of "just give better counterspells to Black and White, hurp durp". (which I would totally be down for too, because I also hurp. They will just never print a good counter without :u: in it. I still think Swan Song would have been fine at :wu:).

[Malakai]

Swan Song would've been most interesting at G, although everyone would be (rightfully) wondering what happened to the color pie.

[Dice_Box]

The only way Green would get something like Swan is if it only targeted Blue cards.

Personally I would like to see white get more Tax counters like Mana Tithe. There is no reason why white can't have it own set of counters that build on that principle. Hell, might make things a touch more interesting.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like Werebear and Mystic Enforcer.

[TsumiBand]

So from an under-experienced POV at the prerelease -

I felt like I got a lot more product than I'm used to and I really liked being able to pick a pre-seeded pack to open in addition to 5 regular boosters.

I felt like my deck was pretty cool, but I couldn't stay for 7 fucking rounds so I took off. I need to remember to clear my damn schedule on prerelease days instead of being like "nah sure it's fine I'll probably scrub out and drop early, so I'll do this AND make plans for the early afternoon/evening, NBD". I dropped with a 3-1 record. Feels bad man.

Ended up WB with really no regrets. Rescue from the Underworld is THE SHIT. Sure, I'll block your guys and take like no damages and sac this here Ashen Rider sos I can reanimate a Grey Merchant of Asphodel and the Ashen Rider and like exile all the things because go screw.

Devotion -- kind of lame. Maybe it was because I was in two colors but I just about always only did it for like 2 - 4. The one time I had 5 devotion was when I had like that 2/2 for 1WW with flying/heroic, the 3/3 WB regeneration flyer guy that's solid as hell and like the 1/1 lifelink enchantment creature dude. And then I played Hundred-Hand Slap guy and made WWWWWW with that Devotion land and instantly gave him Monstrous. Next turn he definitely got the haste + flying boots. Bahahaha he blocks 100 creatures and swings over for massive damage.

Heroic -- I never saw it really matter. I had guys with Heroic but it was incidental.

Monstrous -- I made E. Honda monstrous a couple of times but it was never FTW or anything.

Craziest matchup was against some guy with RB Onboard Tricks. Tyramet the Murder King is a one-card combo with everything about this format or at least he was in that deck. Left unchecked he just turns derpy early drops into mid/late damage to seal the deal, but he also plays with Bestow really well. I'm a scrub so I didn't see this, but dude attacks with some guy that's uber enchanted with Bestow guys and he just has Tyramet and that same tapped guy in play and he's at like 10, so I untap and try to force some crappy blocks by going all in. He just sacs his one guy to Tyramet which made all the Bestowed guys fall off and onto the battlefield. So he domes me, then blocks with the deathtouch enchantment that just turned into a creature and wrecks my biggest guy, then chumps the other one and takes like 2. Untap play guys and kill me with Tyramet damages. Fuck. We ended up going to time in the last round and I gave him the W because I knew I would have to go and he had a very cool deck that I didn't even really want to kill because I just wanted to see all his tricks work. He drew Tyramet like every game and always turn 2ed him like a boss, but I like a boss from a different department always had the Viper's Kiss to keep him from doing things. I think he actually had to like target his own Tyramet with a removal spell just to return it to his hand and bring it online for the play I just mentioned but seriously, that little bastard is crazy.

Apart from a couple games where I mulled to oblivion I loved my deck and would totally keep it together for a few after-the-fact games at work if it weren't for the fact that I want to throw some of this jank into my Ghost Council of Orzhova EDH deck so goddamn bad.

This is what I ended up playing:

7x Plains
10x Swamp
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

Hopeful Eidolon
Wingsteed Rider
Observant Alseid
Ephara's Warden
Hundred-Handed One
Baleful Eidolon
2x Blood-Toll Harpy
Erebos's Emissary
Disciple of Phenax
2x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Abhorrent Overlord
Sentry of the Underworld
Ashen Rider

Ray of Dissolution
2x Divine Verdict
Viper's Kiss
Pharika's Cure
Rescue from the Underworld
Sip of Hemlock


It was pretty fun, even though I was just kind of over it and pissy by the end, but I was probs just hungry. Went home, had chicken, perked up.

So none of this has anything to do with Legacy except that really after seeing the way Devotion works/doesn't work quite like it seemed like it would, I believe that any cards that may have been under consideration for their Devotion-related aspects should be really strongly reconsidered unless you are really going heavy on maxing it out. I don't just mean Gods, I mean like... all the devotion stuff was under-performing -- and not just for me, for lots of other players there. You really do have to be trying pretty hard to get more than like 4 out of it. One of my friends was looking at his pool and trying to figure out how to squeeze in the Black God and realizing that 99% of the time it would never be a creature if he also used his good cards (which ultimately lead to like Jund colors). So basically like unless you feel it's going to go into a deck with a lot of double-colored requirements like Death and Taxes, or maybe Merfolk or something, most of the time it is just so underwhelming. It's a good thing I didn't pull a God and try to force it, it would have ruined my deck.

[HPB_Eggo]

Mono-black is the only limited deck that really takes advantage of Devotion. A deck full of Merchants and Disciples with Whip of Erebos out is not something you want to deal with in Limited. I ended up going 6-0 with a mono-black deck that had that along with a handful of Insatiable Harpies, an Abhorrent Overlord, and a bunch of lower-curve guys to get the game to the point where Devotion could do its thing.

Most fun thing to do? Make a ton of harpies with Overlord, and then use his sacrifice trigger to recur all of your Devotion guys with Whip and, eventually, kill himself with it to make another horde of harpies.

But, yeah, outside of that Devotion seems like kind of a weak sideshow, even in a Limited environment.

[LeoCop 90]

The problem with choosing black at the prerelease is that to have a good black deck you must go almost mono-black and you absolutely need to have multiple Grey merchant of Asphodels. Fact is, if you have the right cards black is the strongest color in my opinion, but you can't count on having those cards in sealed.

[Darkenslight]

Calling it now - Black to be overdrafted.

[Derklord]

@HPB_Eggo: Well, there are only 16 cards with devotion, black is the only color with enough devotion cards to even consider going monocolored, which you definitly must.

Just as they made monstrosity bad by making it cost 5 or more mana on every card (except Polukranos, World Eater@1) they also wasted devotion by making no card where it feels thresholdy - the EtB effects aren't good enough for constructed.

[Barook]

While still no Geist, I noticed that Daxos of Meletis has some synergy with Exalted.


I do want to say though that even if you're being ironic Barook, really Thalia isn't a fluke, right - she's in precisely the right color and does exactly what more good general purpose hatebears should do.
I called her a fluke because she's in the right color without jamming :u: into her casting cost. Getting Legacy-playable anti-blue cards that are symmetrical is extremely rare because in most cases, they aren't symmetrical and blue decks themselves can get the best use out of them.

[HPB_Eggo]

@HPB_Eggo: Well, there are only 16 cards with devotion, black is the only color with enough devotion cards to even consider going monocolored, which you definitly must.

Just as they made monstrosity bad by making it cost 5 or more mana on every card (except Polukranos, World Eater@1) they also wasted devotion by making no card where it feels thresholdy - the EtB effects aren't good enough for constructed.

Absolutely agree. Devotion will see zero play outside of limited, and will see very little play even in limited - I'm close to 100% certain mono-black is the only color that uses it well there and even then it requires you to have a large number of specific cards that aren't good unless you are capable of going all-in on the Devotion strategy.

Only reason it worked for me was because I ended up with all of the cards in what I got for sealed. I would advise against ever trying to draft mono-black Devotion, as it's really just asking to get hosed.

[shrubs]

So I swung by the local shop yesterday to poke around, and had forgotten that it was prerelease. On a whim, I signed up as I had nothing going on.

I have never been so bored playing Magic. My pool was atrocious, the games were long and durdlely, and the cards felt derpy. After a strong 0-2 start I dropped- life is too short for bad Magic.

I really want my money and time back, and should have handed someone my cards on the way out. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting to have the most-fun-everTM, but for $25 I expected something resembling enjoyment. But the box was cool! Yeah....

[Kayradis]

Went 4-0-1 (split 1st w/ my buddy) with Mono-B at the Pre-Release. 45 Boosters added to the card pool.

Could MBC be a deck in standard?

[caiomarcos]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3209&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=220377&type=cardhttp://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ths/obasdfkjw8324lz/AUMAJUEYuVR_EN_LR.jpg

EDIT: Smite

Clearly the best way to deal with creatures with power 4 or greater is to summon a creature with power 4 or greater.
For 6 mana you can find 6/6 aplenty.
That's a shame. Since at least Tarmogoyf this game has become "play creatures or play creatures, but if you insist in not playing creatures, take this 6 mana sorcery speed removal."

[TsumiBand]

Clearly the best way to deal with creatures with power 4 or greater is to summon a creature with power 4 or greater.
For 6 mana you can find 6/6 aplenty.
That's a shame. Since at least Tarmogoyf this game has become "play creatures or play creatures, but if you insist in not playing creatures, take this 6 mana sorcery speed removal."

In fairness, Modern does have Path to Exile which is the "smallest" format Tarmogoyf actually lives in.

Similar to fair counters, removal should have a degree of scalability. The fact that Path/Swords give your opponent land/life is the justification for letting them occur at :w:. Reprisal in today's Standard would be pretty over the curve; the lower bound doesn't make up for the lack of an upper bound.

Legacy would crumble under this idea because there would be even less answers to cheating-ass-cheaters with Reanimate or Show and Tell, but I don't know that this is a terrible way to play Standard. I felt like my removal was 'adequate' at the prerelease. If I were going Constructed I'd probably enjoy the benefits of like Orzhov Charm and Hero's Demise and the smattering of relevant-to-mah-interests burn spells.

[Finn]

Sure. I guess if the creatures are overcosted, the removal should also be. Very reasonable.

[HPB_Eggo]

Could MBC be a deck in standard?

Nah. Theros doesn't really add much to constructed play in terms of MBC, and the pool outside of Theros isn't super great. Maybe some form of MB something will show up, but I'm not seeing control as of the moment.

[Amon Amarth]

Sure. I guess if the creatures are overcosted, the removal should also be. Very reasonable.

Vanquish as a Sorcery at 6 mana is wayyy under the curve. And it's an uncommon. At five as an instant it seems fine as "expensive Limited removal spell with upside". Scry 1 is not even close to being worth all those drawbacks.

[Nihil Credo]

Vanquish as a Sorcery at 6 mana is wayyy under the curve. And it's an uncommon. At five as an instant it seems fine as "expensive Limited removal spell with upside". Scry 1 is not even close to being worth all those drawbacks.

White has Divine Verdict at common as its workhorse fattie removal. Given that Heroic triggers are a huge boon to white's weenie strategy, and that it's one of the two colours with access to straight enchantment removal, it doesn't surprise me that development decided to nerf them on creature removal (Vanquish isn't really the most egregious example of that either: Ephara's Warden is).

I think Red got the exact opposite treatment, if you look at its commons and uncommons a lot of them are a bit better than usual (Akroan Crusader, Ill-Tempered Cyclops, both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet), presumably to help offset the fact that it's so weak against huge Aura-clad creatures.

[TsumiBand]

White has Divine Verdict at common as its workhorse fattie removal. Given that Heroic triggers are a huge boon to white's weenie strategy, and that it's one of the two colours with access to straight enchantment removal, it doesn't surprise me that development decided to nerf them on creature removal (Vanquish isn't really the most egregious example of that either: Ephara's Warden is).

Right.

In the first Mirrodin block, Green got Oxidize, I think during Darksteel. In Limited at least people were pretty quick to compare it to a Green StP for robots, and it was pretty fair although I do not think this translated into Constructed in the same way, for lots of reasons (it isn't StP, and anyway, Ravager was a huge stymie to such spells).

So wherein Limited Theros is concerned, if my common removal spells are things like Ray of Dissolution or Divine Verdict I don't really see a huge problem. Enchantment creatures show up all over the place so your Naturalize effects are fairly widely applicable. Divine Verdict is fine for Limited as far as I can tell.

[FieryBalrog]

Now that Theros is out and I've played with the cards some, well... I'll just say I haven't seen a large fall set this boring in a really, really long time.

[Barook]

Heroic is such a boring mechanic.

Stuff like Varolz, Scavenge in general or Bloodrush probably would have acted favorably with it which explains the heavy focus on creature mechanics in the RtR block. But then they cut it due to infinite combos with activated abilites and we go yet another uninsprining mechanic.

[Aggro_zombies]

There was a heavy focus on creature mechanics in RtR block because there's a heavy focus on creatures in modern Magic design.

It's unlikely that they ever seriously tested Heroic as a "target by spells or abilities" mechanic, since it would be way too easy to break even without going infinite. Given that it was meant to be the Hero mechanic, and thus go on a bunch of small creatures (since humans and other humanoid creatures in Magic tend to be small and cheap), they would have to make some awfully lame Heroic triggers to balance that version of it. Honestly, having seen Heroic in action at the prerelease, it's really fine for what it's trying to do. Heroic decks can deliver some really savage beats early and, unlike many weenie W/x strategies, can stay relevant in the late game thanks to being able to make existing threats bigger. Sure, it's a really boring mechanic since there's very little difference to how different Heroic decks operate (cast Heroic dude, target Heroic dude with trick, ???, Profit!), but it probably wasn't meant to be a puzzle mechanic in the same way that, say, Evolve was.

Really, once they decided this set would be focused on heroes, gods, and monsters, there was no way it couldn't be creature-focused. That premise alone means two of your three factions absolutely have to be made of dorks.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I didn't think much of Heroic, but then I didn't really see a ton of it. I suspect that a Limited deck with a bunch of Bestow guys and that 3/2 with Deathtouch and "Heroic - Cruel Edict" would be a huge pain in the dick to play against.

I keep wondering if there might be something to it in Constructed, just because there are Heroic guys that not only get a counter but have an effect like "prevent all damage dealt to -this-" and "give the rest of your team counters too" and whatnot. Being able to insta-Crusade your team doesn't suck, and like even some old tech like Rancor kind of has new appeal if it can be used to give a guy +3/+1 and trample (plus whatever else triggers). So at least if you get your Heroic guy killed you'll get your Rancor back assuming they don't do the good play and 2-fer you. I dunno.

That devotion land does some work. I'd be interested to see if that could sneak into a deck. As-is I'm guessing the EDH crowd eats it for breakfast.

[Aggro_zombies]

The devotion land does not seem particularly playable in Legacy. Cabal Coffers sees zero play and it is arguably an easier, less disruptable plan to have a bunch of Swamps in play than to have a huge board presence. It's worth noting that the devotion land is worse than Cradle at massively boosting your mana despite placing the same sort of restraints on deckbuilding and Cradle only sees play in very specific decks, so I'd say the chances of Devotion Land making it are not very good.

In EDH people tend to like big durdle decks, which makes the devotion land great.

[joven]

I don't really get why Heroic not triggers when it is targeted by an opponent. Is the creature suddenly not a Hero anymore or lost its courage when facing an opponent's spell?
It wouldn't be overpowered, would it?

Also, I think both Heroic and Bestow are weak and uninteresting mechanics even for Limited play.

Bestow is extremely overcosted (except maybe Nighthowler) given that you have to risk card loss by getting twofered. Also, you don't really get much more than the creature. It's just sort of sitting on the shoulders of another creature (at least with the Bestow cards printed in Theros which all basically have the same effect as aura or as creature). So why do I have to pay more than the casting cost of the creature?

Also, Heroic is inherently connected to some sort of card loss since you have to put spells in your deck that target your own creatures. Most of such spells are combat tricks and auras which, I assume, are widely considered as not worth to put into a deck most of the time even in Limited. Also, targeting own creatures by itself always opens you for getting twofered (except the target has hexproof or something).

[Lemnear]

Because it was too much to ask for something like:

1GW - Legendary Creature

Hexproof
Heroic - Draw a card
Sacrifice an enchantment: this creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn

0/1

Best of Argothian Enchantress and Auratog.

[Kayradis]

Instead we have Fleecemane Lion.

It's gonna be a 15$ + card in a month.

[Lemnear]

Instead we have Fleecemane Lion.

It's gonna be a 15$ + card in a month.

Aside Swan Song it's the best card in the set. Presale is still expensive as fuck

[Kayradis]

I know. We are opening more boxes tonight before Midnight Release to make sure we stock enough for the guys that will buys ALL THE SINGLES before FNM tomorrow. I had to book a day off at my normal work to make sure that all that stuff would be ready for the release tonight.

I'm still wondering if Fleecemane Lion could see play in Legacy. Nic Fit?
I am also looking at putting a 1 x Thassa, God Of The Sea in Merfolks since you can vial her in and devotion to :u: will be easily attainable.

[Lemnear]

I know. We are opening more boxes tonight before Midnight Release to make sure we stock enough for the guys that will buys ALL THE SINGLES before FNM tomorrow. I had to book a day off at my normal work to make sure that all that stuff would be ready for the release tonight.

I'm still wondering if Fleecemane Lion could see play in Legacy. Nic Fit?
I am also looking at putting a 1 x Thassa, God Of The Sea in Merfolks since you can vial her in and devotion to :u: will be easily attainable.

Big Zoo or Maverick maybe. Thassa is a win-more card in Meerfolk. Grab some FOIL Swan Songs for me ;)

[Kayradis]

I'll put all the ones we crack aside in a top loaded. Ill msg you with the price tonight!

[Megadeus]

I don't really get why Heroic not triggers when it is targeted by an opponent. Is the creature suddenly not a Hero anymore or lost its courage when facing an opponent's spell?
It wouldn't be overpowered, would it?

Also, I think both Heroic and Bestow are weak and uninteresting mechanics even for Limited play.

Bestow is extremely overcosted (except maybe Nighthowler) given that you have to risk card loss by getting twofered. Also, you don't really get much more than the creature. It's just sort of sitting on the shoulders of another creature (at least with the Bestow cards printed in Theros which all basically have the same effect as aura or as creature). So why do I have to pay more than the casting cost of the creature?

Also, Heroic is inherently connected to some sort of card loss since you have to put spells in your deck that target your own creatures. Most of such spells are combat tricks and auras which, I assume, are widely considered as not worth to put into a deck most of the time even in Limited. Also, targeting own creatures by itself always opens you for getting twofered (except the target has hexproof or something). with bestow, if the creature that the aura is targeting dies, then the creature aura comes into play as a creature.

Please people understand the mechanic before coming in here to complain. Yes they suck and are way over costed, but damn.

[TsumiBand]

Bestow is extremely overcosted (except maybe Nighthowler) given that you have to risk card loss by getting twofered. Also, you don't really get much more than the creature. It's just sort of sitting on the shoulders of another creature (at least with the Bestow cards printed in Theros which all basically have the same effect as aura or as creature). So why do I have to pay more than the casting cost of the creature?

That's not how Bestow even works.

You can pay its casting cost and cast it in "Creature Mode" - so it comes into play as an enchantment creature.

Alternately, you can pay the Bestow cost to cast it as an Aura, with the same targeting rules as any old Aura. If, for any reason, it would not be attached to a permanent, it hits the battlefield as a creature instead. This can happen as part of the spell's resolution, or if the creature it's already attached to leaves play.

So even though it is probably too overcosted for most Constructed formats, you don't just get instantly 2-for-1ed when someone responds to your casting an Aura by killing the creature.

EDIT - totes ninja'd :/

[HammafistRoob]

So I did terrible at the prere last weekend, 3wins 2losses. Mostly because I was basically mono blue with like 6 red cards, and that damn pro blue hydra killed me 3 times. Once on a topdeck on the dudes final turn, which was kinda a feel bad moment haha. I was also to dumb to side in a few more red creatures against those two people, which could have helped and definitely would've been the right move. I also realized my curve was a bit to high and I didn't fix it between rounds, oh well.

I did however 4-0 a draft tonight playing a sick UB deck with a good curve, a few fatties, lots of overcosted removal, and 5 deathtouch guys. First pack was the rare Whip and I knew I would be playing black, and I think I was the only one in my pod going for black. Blue has some really good commons for this set, and black turned out to be a perfect compliment. I played no heroic guys and no devotion cards, nice job Wizaaaadz. Some good commons I played were:

Aqueous Form
Voyage's End
Griptide
Breaching Hippocamp
Omenspeaker
Baleful Eidolon
Returned Phalanx
Lash of the Whip

Aqueous Form is fucking amazing, and the horse fish lead to some huge blowouts. The two drops were very tough for people to get by and it allowed me to start dropping bombs, mainly, Horizon Scholar(x2), and take over the game. I had access to some sick tempo plays with the Griptides (and horsefishthing), being an instant is just so sweet. You heard it here first, UB or GTFO!

[joven]

with bestow, if the creature that the aura is targeting dies, then the creature aura comes into play as a creature.


Yes, I know, but it's not that good.


That's not how Bestow even works.

You can pay its casting cost and cast it in "Creature Mode" - so it comes into play as an enchantment creature.

Alternately, you can pay the Bestow cost to cast it as an Aura, with the same targeting rules as any old Aura. If, for any reason, it would not be attached to a permanent, it hits the battlefield as a creature instead. This can happen as part of the spell's resolution, or if the creature it's already attached to leaves play.

So even though it is probably too overcosted for most Constructed formats, you don't just get instantly 2-for-1ed when someone responds to your casting an Aura by killing the creature.

EDIT - totes ninja'd :/

If all targets of a spell are gone the spell is countered (it fizzles as we used to say in the early days). That means the Bestow spell won't become the creature and you're twofered.

[HammafistRoob]

Incorrect, it will not fizzle.


Wizards official site
702.102. Bestow

702.102a Bestow represents two static abilities, one that functions while the card with bestow is on the stack, and another that functions both while it's on the stack & while it's on the battlefield. "Bestow [cost]" means you may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost." and "If you chose to pay this spell's bestow cost it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant creature. These effects last until one of two things happens: the spell has an illegal target as it resolves or the permanent this spell becomes, becomes unattached." Paying a creatures bestow cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.

702.102b If a spell's controller chooses to pay its bestow cost, that player chooses a legal target for that Aura as defined by its enchant creature ability and rule 601.2c. See also rule 303.4.

702.102c A spell's controller can't choose to pay its bestow cost unless that player can choose a legal target for that spell after it becomes an Aura spell.

702.102d As an Aura spell with bestow begins resolving, if its target is illegal, the effect making it an Aura spell ends. It continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield under the control of the spells controller. This is an exception to rule 608.3a.

You don't choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you're casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creatures as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.

On the stack, a spell with bestow is either a creature spell or an Aura spell. It's never both.

Unlike other Aura spells, an Aura spell with bestow isn't countered if it's target is illegal as it begins to resolve. Rather, the effect making it an Aura spell ends, it loses enchant creature, it returns to being an enchantment creature spell, and it resolves and enters the battlefield as an enchantment creature.

Unlike other Auras, an Aura with bestow isn't put into its owner's graveyard if it becomes unattached. Rather, the effect making it an Aura ends, it loses enchant creature, and it remains on the battlefield as an enchantment creature. It can attack (and its tap abilities can be activated, if it has any) on the turn it becomes unattached if it's been under your control continuously, even as an Aura, since your most recent turn began.

If a permanent with bestow enters the battlefield by any method other than being cast, it will be an enchantment creature. You can't choose to pay the bestow cost and have it become an Aura.

Auras attached to a creature don't become tapped when the creature becomes tapped. Except in some rare cases, an Aura with bestow remains untapped when it becomes unattached and becomes a creature.

[Barook]

Painter's Servant interaction with Soldier of the Pantheon is rather cute (not that it's Legacy-playable, though).

[HammafistRoob]

Not for Legacy, but maybe in Modern? I'm not aware of any other good interactions for the Painter though. Renounce the Guilds?


Also, I think both Heroic and Bestow are weak and uninteresting mechanics even for Limited play.

Bestow is extremely overcosted (except maybe Nighthowler) given that you have to risk card loss by getting twofered. Also, you don't really get much more than the creature. It's just sort of sitting on the shoulders of another creature (at least with the Bestow cards printed in Theros which all basically have the same effect as aura or as creature). So why do I have to pay more than the casting cost of the creature?

Have you played Limited with it? I'm like 99% positive you haven't, so how can you say that it's bad with such certainty?

Bestow is actually quite good in Limited. Take Baleful Eidolon for example, he has early game presence if you need a blocker ASAP or he has built in card advantage unless your opponent's whole team has flying. It's versatility that makes them good, and quess what? They're commons. I had four of those little beasts in my draft pool and nobody stood a chance.

I think the blue one is pretty good too, it's either a 2/2 flyer for 3 or it makes your best guy fly in the mid-late game. GOOD DRAFT CARDS ARE GOOD

Bestow doesn't look very impressive on paper, but the fact is drafting bestow cards over devotion and heroic cards is going to give you more wiggle room with your picks. You're not gonna be trying to force dumb enchantments/pump spells or go mono colored. Bestow is the best ability for draft, not even close.

[Darkenslight]

Not for Legacy, but maybe in Modern? I'm not aware of any other good interactions for the Painter though. Renounce the Guilds?

Have you played Limited with it? I'm like 99% positive you haven't, so how can you say that it's bad with such certainty?

Bestow is actually quite good in Limited. Take Baleful Eidolon for example, he has early game presence if you need a blocker ASAP or he has built in card advantage unless your opponent's whole team has flying. It's versatility that makes them good, and quess what? They're commons. I had four of those little beasts in my draft pool and nobody stood a chance.

I think the blue one is pretty good too, it's either a 2/2 flyer for 3 or it makes your best guy fly in the mid-late game. GOOD DRAFT CARDS ARE GOOD

Bestow doesn't look very impressive on paper, but the fact is drafting bestow cards over devotion and heroic cards is going to give you more wiggle room with your picks. You're not gonna be trying to force dumb enchantments/pump spells or go mono colored. Bestow is the best ability for draft, not even close.

In addition, it also seems to have the best ability for activating the other two set mechanics, which is hilarious in context.

tl;dr Bestow is a lot better than it appears in Limited. Whether that can translate to Constructed is another thing altogether.

[TsumiBand]

Yes Bestow is very very good in Limited.

I can't tell you how impressed I was with my third round guy's BR Tyramet deck. I talked about it earlier, but man that thing enabled all kinds of stupid shenanigans vis-a-vis Bestow. Like I felt shitty for always having the Viper's Kiss in hand because I just wanted to watch it work, but it would have made me lose(instead of draw).

[warai]

Anyone tested Ashiok on legacy BUG?

[joven]

Incorrect, it will not fizzle.

LOL, Wizards make rule exceptions to fix bad mechanic design. :D The text on the cards clearly stated that its just an aura spell if you use Bestow, so I though normal rules would apply.
At least it makes somewhat sense. Well, that makes Bestow a little bit better.


Sure it works good in Limited. It has to since Theros Limited is specially designed for/with it. I find it still sick to pay 5-7 mana for an aura, that might become a creature some time later.
Sure, Baleful Eidolon is one of the better ones.

[TsumiBand]

Really though, Magic cards break the rules of the game all the time. For the longest time, Isochron Scepter had a ruling which stated "normally you cannot cast a spell during the resolution of an ability, but Isochron Scepter breaks this rule." It's been changed ever-so-slightly to say its ability "provides an exception" to the rule, but the same idea remains - you shouldn't be able to cast anything during the resolution of a spell or ability, that'd be like drawing cards in response to the second half of Merfolk Looter's ability or something dumb like that. It's their own fault for having a thing say cast instead of play or even just copy like all the Fork variants.

I agree the reminder text on the card isn't explicit in stating that it can always ETB as a creature in the event it can't do so as an Aura. It gets to join the elite forces of Madness and Unearth as examples of cards which don't describe the ability nearly as well as they should. I don't think it has any secret lines of play as a result of this wording so it's better than both of the above for that. I'm not a rules guru but it seems like a replacement effect for the spell's resolution would have been fine, right? "If this would resolve with no legal targets, it enters the battlefield as a creature instead" could have been fine, IMO. But there's probably some awesome reason why it needs to be as it is. Meh I dunno, me just throw money at game in hope for ultimate power.

[Gheizen64]

Anyone tested Ashiok on legacy BUG?

No idea in legacy, but he's decent in modern, since everyone play cheap creatures there, in every deck, except tron maybe (it run things like the treasure mage or Sakura tribe elder depending on the builds).

[FieryBalrog]

I don't think it has any secret lines of play as a result of this wording so it's better than both of the above for that.
Actually there are some secret interactions between Bestow and stuff like Aurelia's Fury that are very counter-intuitive (you can cast a card with Bestow as an aura even if tagged with Aurelia's Fury; however you cannot cast a card with Bestow if tagged with Moonhold's white effect, even if you want it as an aura).

Yet at the same time you are NOT able to Essence Scatter a card cast with Bestow as an aura. And obviously this remains true even if the target dies and the spell un-intuitively un-fizzles by ETBing as a creature.

All in all, Bestow is a mechanic that leads to a lot of un-intuitive hogwash and rules memorization, and this Limited-only clunker of a mechanic doesn't seem remotely worth the cost. Congrats Wizards, you created a mechanic that is about as complex as Madness but isn't anywhere close to as cool.

[TsumiBand]

Actually there are some secret interactions between Bestow and stuff like Aurelia's Fury that are very counter-intuitive (you can cast a card with Bestow as an aura even if tagged with Aurelia's Fury; however you cannot cast a card with Bestow if tagged with Moonhold's white effect, even if you want it as an aura).

Yet at the same time you are NOT able to Essence Scatter a card cast with Bestow as an aura. And obviously this remains true even if the target dies and the spell un-intuitively un-fizzles by ETBing as a creature.

All in all, Bestow is a mechanic that leads to a lot of un-intuitive hogwash and rules memorization, and this Limited-only clunker of a mechanic doesn't seem remotely worth the cost. Congrats Wizards, you created a mechanic that is about as complex as Madness but isn't anywhere close to as cool.

I think some of that stuff is fairly easy to get though. It doesn't "re-creature-ize" until resolution, so it spends its life on the stack as an Aura and only changes to a creature during resolution. BUT it exists in hand as an Enchantment Creature, which Moonhold is happy to prevent but Aurelia's Fury allows because it is dual-type.

"Can't cast" should just prevent you from announcing that spell if it meets certain criteria, and Bestow is basically only a thing at two points - when the spell is on the stack and when it's concerned with entering the battlefield.

This isn't nearly as weird as like casting Trickbind on a Basking Rootwalla's Madness trigger to leave that poor bastard in exile, or like exiling an Unearthed creature in order to dodge Unearth's exile. Or any of the host of bad shit phasing somehow allows for -- we should feel good about not having anything that remotely approaches phasing or bands with ___ or any of that.

Total unrelated aside - since replacement effects for costs don't prevent them from being paid (see the old Void Maw and Yawgmoth's Will combo - although that doesn't work anymore (which has nothing to do with being able/unable to pay the cost)), I don't get why Madness ever needed to have a trigger in the first place. "If this card would be discarded, you may choose to cast it for its Madness cost instead." Seems fine. Cost is still paid, your Wild Mongrel is +1/+1 and probably staying Green but who knows, and you get a rad 4/4 trampler for 2G without bumping into stupid Stifle FTL. Or at the least you're not necessitating shortcuts by secretly passing priority more times than you needed to. Meh, it doesn't matter I guess b/c no one even plays t3h madness these days, but w/e

[rufus]

..."If this would resolve with no legal targets, it enters the battlefield as a creature instead" could have been fine, IMO. But there's probably some awesome reason why it needs to be as it is. Meh I dunno, me just throw money at game in hope for ultimate power.

I think they're trying for 'works the way you think it does'. Otherwise bestow could just have been: "If you cast this for the the bestow cost, you may have it enter the battlefield as an aura attached to a creature."

Bestow interacts with cards like Animar, Soul of Elements or Blood Funnel that have spell type specific cost changing effects in a reasonably sensible way.

Does Hopeful Eidelon trigger Tallowisp's or Kor Spiritdancer's abilities if it's played for the bestow cost?

There's some potential funny interactions with Avoid Fate, Confound and the like.

[FieryBalrog]

I think some of that stuff is fairly easy to get though. It doesn't "re-creature-ize" until resolution, so it spends its life on the stack as an Aura and only changes to a creature during resolution. BUT it exists in hand as an Enchantment Creature, which Moonhold is happy to prevent but Aurelia's Fury allows because it is dual-type.

"Can't cast" should just prevent you from announcing that spell if it meets certain criteria, and Bestow is basically only a thing at two points - when the spell is on the stack and when it's concerned with entering the battlefield.

Actually this is a great demonstration of how confusing it is: your explanation is technically incorrect since the first step of casting a spell is to announce it and move the object to the stack: BUT it exists in hand as an Enchantment Creature, which Moonhold is happy to prevent but Aurelia's Fury allows because it is dual-type.

How the object exists in the hand isn't what Moonhold or Aurelia's Fury are concerned about, technically speaking. The reason it works is because, once on the stack, when casting a spell, spell type restrictions are checked before modal choices that do things like change a spell's type. That is why casting a creature card using Bestow-mode doesn't trigger Animar, but does bypass spell-type restrictions.



This isn't nearly as weird as like casting Trickbind on a Basking Rootwalla's Madness trigger to leave that poor bastard in exile, or like exiling an Unearthed creature in order to dodge Unearth's exile.

As we can see from your confusion above, I don't see how this stuff about Madness or Unearth is any more unintuitive than "I can still cast this as a non-creature spell even though I'm not allowed to cast any noncreature spells" or "I can't cast this as a non-creature spell because I'm not allowed to cast creature spells". I mean if this is intuitive, then well, anything is. Madness is "obviously" an ability that triggers on exiling the card during the replacement effect applied to the discard, so you can trickbind it. Unearth "obviously" means "exile it instead of putting it anywhere else" with its replacement effect, so things that exile a card aren't affect by the replacement.

[TsumiBand]

Actually this is a great demonstration of how confusing it is: your explanation is actually wrong since the first step of casting a spell is to announce it and move the object to the stack: BUT it exists in hand as an Enchantment Creature, which Moonhold is happy to prevent but Aurelia's Fury allows because it is dual-type.

How the object exists in the hand isn't what Moonhold or Aurelia's Fury are concerned about. The reason it works is because, once on the stack, when casting a spell, spell type restrictions are checked before modal choices that do things like change a spell's type. That is why casting a creature card with Bestow doesn't trigger Animar, but does bypass spell-type restrictions.



As we can see from your confusion above, I don't see how this stuff about Madness or Unearth is any more unintuitive than "I can still cast this as a non-creature spell even though I'm not allowed to cast any noncreature spells" or "I can't cast this as a non-creature spell because I'm not allowed to cast creature spells". I mean if this is intuitive, then well, anything is. Madness is "obviously" an ability that triggers on exiling the card during the replacement effect applied to the discard, so you can trickbind it. Unearth "obviously" means "exile it instead of putting it anywhere else" with its replacement effect, so things that exile a card aren't affect by the replacement.

What are you talking about? That's exactly what matters under Aurelia's Fury // Moonhold.

I'm looking at 601.5 - A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast. As you yourself put it, the very first action one takes when attempting to cast a spell is to put it on the stack - only after you've tried to do this can you start choosing modes, etc. Bestow is determined after it's put onto the stack, this was part of the prerelease rules announcement. So yes, it matters because you cannot even start to put it on the stack, it never changed zones precisely because of the type restriction.


You don't choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you're casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.

I think you're talking about the difference between "can't cast [type]" and "can't cast [non-type]". Aurelia's says "can't cast noncreatures" - Baleful Eidolon is an enchantment creature up until you decide to make it a "Bestowed" Enchantment - Aura, at which point it is already on the stack. Moonhold says "can't cast creatures" (well it says 'play' according to Oracle, that's weird). That Bestow spell is an enchantment creature in your hand, and you cannot begin to cast it because it is a creature. You don't make the Bestow choice until after it would go on the stack, but it simply isn't able to, per the rule above. I may have glossed over my explain a little bit, but I don't believe I misunderstood anything there.

You are right though, there are hidden interactions. So it is not as face-value as I thought. But the Moonhold thing is just a matter of looking at your hand and going "Oh, shit, it's a creature. I can't put this shit on the stack right now, because effects and stuff."

What is kind of fucked up is that facedown creatures are this weird corner case where by their nature they need to be facedown before they go on the stack, or else the gig is up right? So honestly I think they maybe should have thought of that, since you can get around a "can't play lands" effect by playing Zoetic Cavern in Downward Dog - the game can't see that it's a land because it goes on the stack facedown. **LIGHTNING EDIT -- this has nothing to do directly with Moonhold, it's just an example of how changing the card type before it goes on the stack is germane to the discussion**

It's the same-but-different stuff that tends to kill me; when there's conceptual real estate for things to exist in a certain vein, but they just gotta sit and make new rules for things because they do. Bestow creatures probably ought to have the chance to change before they go on the stack, like facedown creatures do. Other things that IMO are perfectly fine but for some reason they can't/won't do, like letting non-planeswalkers make emblems (Praetor's Counsel, you dick), I just don't get. The tech is like... right there, it's in the game already, but instead there have to be new rules and/or memory issues and shit.

[Richard Cheese]

What are you talking about? That's exactly what matters under Aurelia's Fury // Moonhold.

I'm looking at 601.5 - A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast. As you yourself put it, the very first action one takes when attempting to cast a spell is to put it on the stack - only after you've tried to do this can you start choosing modes, etc. Bestow is determined after it's put onto the stack, this was part of the prerelease rules announcement. So yes, it matters because you cannot even start to put it on the stack, it never changed zones precisely because of the type restriction.



I think you're talking about the difference between "can't cast [type]" and "can't cast [non-type]". Aurelia's says "can't cast noncreatures" - Baleful Eidolon is an enchantment creature up until you decide to make it a "Bestowed" Enchantment - Aura, at which point it is already on the stack. Moonhold says "can't cast creatures" (well it says 'play' according to Oracle, that's weird). That Bestow spell is an enchantment creature in your hand, and you cannot begin to cast it because it is a creature. You don't make the Bestow choice until after it would go on the stack, but it simply isn't able to, per the rule above. I may have glossed over my explain a little bit, but I don't believe I misunderstood anything there.

You are right though, there are hidden interactions. So it is not as face-value as I thought. But the Moonhold thing is just a matter of looking at your hand and going "Oh, shit, it's a creature. I can't put this shit on the stack right now, because effects and stuff."

What is kind of fucked up is that facedown creatures are this weird corner case where by their nature they need to be facedown before they go on the stack, or else the gig is up right? So honestly I think they maybe should have thought of that, since you can get around a "can't play lands" effect by playing Zoetic Cavern in Downward Dog - the game can't see that it's a land because it goes on the stack facedown. **LIGHTNING EDIT -- this has nothing to do directly with Moonhold, it's just an example of how changing the card type before it goes on the stack is germane to the discussion**

It's the same-but-different stuff that tends to kill me; when there's conceptual real estate for things to exist in a certain vein, but they just gotta sit and make new rules for things because they do. Bestow creatures probably ought to have the chance to change before they go on the stack, like facedown creatures do. Other things that IMO are perfectly fine but for some reason they can't/won't do, like letting non-planeswalkers make emblems (Praetor's Counsel, you dick), I just don't get. The tech is like... right there, it's in the game already, but instead there have to be new rules and/or memory issues and shit.

CDR help pls.

[TsumiBand]

I posted a question in the ruling board with a link back here.

Interesting how we can come to the same conclusions but for entirely different reasons. Go home Magic rules, you're drunk. And confusing.

In any event, clearly the strongest card to come out of Theros is Ashen Rider as it is amazing in RBW Rifter. Exile two permanents AND Shock something? It's impossible to lose! PREDICTION: Undead Gladiator soon-to-be $50 card.

[Darkenslight]

I posted a question in the ruling board with a link back here.

Interesting how we can come to the same conclusions but for entirely different reasons. Go home Magic rules, you're drunk. And confusing.

In any event, clearly the strongest card to come out of Theros is Ashen Rider as it is amazing in RBW Rifter. Exile two permanents AND Shock something? It's impossible to lose! PREDICTION: Undead Gladiator soon-to-be $50 card.

DEATH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, PITIFUL MEATBAG! [/Morbo]

...Read Ashen Rider again:

When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent.

[TsumiBand]

DEATH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, PITIFUL MEATBAG! [/Morbo]

...Read Ashen Rider again:

When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent.

EDH is making me soft, man. I thought it was leaves play not dies, b/c Nim Deathmantle is my best friend and in my head it was like ".... it's the same trick!"

Fuck.

[ziggy_stardust]

edit: guess I should say "hi" first, lol.. didn't realize this was my first post because I've lurked here for a loooong time (longer than my registration date) and I could've sworn I posted here before, but guess I didn't.

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2013/10/hope-eternal-legacy-brewing/

Here's an Ashiok deck I threw together.. it could certainly use some tuning, but I think it's a good starting point for straight UB. Currently brewing BUG and Grixis versions. I really like the idea of using Deathrites to quickly accelerate into Ashiok, but at the same time, it makes Innocent Blood a lot worse.

Here's where I'm at with the UB version, right now:

Planeswalkers (8)
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creatures (4)
2 Trinket Mage
2 Baleful Strix

Spells (25)
1 Chrome Mox
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Innocent Blood
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

Lands (23)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mishra’s Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Damnation
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Misdirection
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Swan Song
1 Virtue’s Ruin

[rufus]

edit: guess I should say "hi" first, lol.. didn't realize this was my first post because I've lurked here for a loooong time (longer than my registration date) and I could've sworn I posted here before, but guess I didn't.

You might get better feedback in the 'New and Developmental Decks' subforum. Ashiok is not very good, how often is it going to be better than, say, Vendilion Clique or Hypnotic Specter?

[HammafistRoob]

I agree about Ashiok being bad, but there's no harm in trying I guess. Definitely swap Innocent Blood out for Disfigure. Card is nuts right now and nobody plays it :(

[Kayradis]

Theros Limited? Not a bad format. Still. Not as good as anything we had in the past 2 years.
After multiple drafts (3-0/2-1/1-2/0-3) I came to that conclusion.
Draft Tempo blue cards.
The can't be beaten.

[(nameless one)]

Is it me or this set doesn't have proper removal outside of Magma Jet and Mini Jet?

[Barook]

Is it me or this set doesn't have proper removal outside of Magma Jet and Mini Jet?
That's intentional to make auras suck less.

Just look up the discussion a few pages ago how they literally doubled and trippled the mana cost of some removal.

[HammafistRoob]

Is it me or this set doesn't have proper removal outside of Magma Jet and Mini Jet?

Speaking of strictly limited? Magma Jet and its little bro are actually pretty bad in this format because the things you care about killing don't die to it. Sure if you're playing against scrubs who enchant the first dude they can you'll be able to sneak in some 2fer1s, but I don't build decks hoping my opponents are bad. I would never play mini jet and would only play magma jet in an agressive deck. The 3 damage one is better and it's a common.

The removal is overcosted, sure. But if you design your deck to ensure you make it to the late game, and pack 18 lands, it shouldn't be a problem. My last draft deck was insane and most games I played ended with my opponents board being either completely empty or having a useless bear or two. I didn't play red, I used blues combat tricks along with blacks deathtouch and shit removal.

[Koby]

I still hate Bestow. It's so clunky as a mechanic rules-wise; even though it's simple in game play. "Hey look fool-proof Auras! Now you won't have those feel-bads from 1-for-2s"

[Nihil Credo]

I still hate Bestow. It's so clunky as a mechanic rules-wise; even though it's simple in game play. "Hey look fool-proof Auras! Now you won't have those feel-bads from 1-for-2s"

This is really my biggest issue with modern Magic design (I think FTK nowadays wouldn't get reprinted less for power reasons than because "b-but newbies won't understand it kills itself on an empty battlefield!"); that said, Auras are probably the one part of Magic which absolutely needed the drawbacktomy® treatment, because it's silly to have such a big chunk of cards be unplayable by default. I wish they'd find an evergreen solution and be done with it, but at least having a block-sized mechanic is an improvement over a random tweak on Rancor every few sets.

[Koby]

This is really my biggest issue with modern Magic design (I think FTK nowadays wouldn't get reprinted less for power reasons than because "b-but newbies won't understand it kills itself on an empty battlefield!"); that said, Auras are probably the one part of Magic which absolutely needed the drawbacktomy® treatment, because it's silly to have such a big chunk of cards be unplayable by default. I wish they'd find an evergreen solution and be done with it, but at least having a block-sized mechanic is an improvement over a random tweak on Rancor every few sets.

I agree regarding Auras. The last (current?) evergreen attempt is to make Shroud++ in Hexproof, but that was pushed to hard (hint: Geist of Saint Traft) as to make it a glaring (http://magiccards.info/gtc/en/229.html) issue. I think on the whole, the Auras (not Bestow) from Theros seem to make an earnest effort to give an immediate effect that would otherwise give some effect when the aura resolves - either by cycling or permanently growing the creature via Ordeals.

[HammafistRoob]

Hexproof was also a step in the right direction as far as making auras playable goes. I hate Hexproof though, along with anything that takes interaction out of the game, like Leylines, Shroud, and Uncounterability. Dumb and lazy design in my opinion.

EDIT- Ninja'd by a ninja

[rufus]

This is really my biggest issue with modern Magic design (I think FTK nowadays wouldn't get reprinted less for power reasons than because "b-but newbies won't understand it kills itself on an empty battlefield!"); that said, Auras are probably the one part of Magic which absolutely needed the drawbacktomy® treatment, because it's silly to have such a big chunk of cards be unplayable by default. I wish they'd find an evergreen solution and be done with it, but at least having a block-sized mechanic is an improvement over a random tweak on Rancor every few sets.

The vast majority of cards are unplayable by default in constructed, and there are a couple of other auras that aren't terrible: Combo elements like Spliter Twin and ones you want to cast on your opponent's stuff like Threads of Disloyalty. In principle, they could make auras that are potent enough to offset their intrinsic drawbacks, but those would end up being a problem in limited.

It does seem like they're trying to make auras less derp, though they generally fail. (Totem armor anyone?)

[Malakai]

Killing their guy in response, while not a 2-for-1, still tazes them pretty hard because they just spent like six mana for a 3 drop.

[TsumiBand]

Killing their guy in response, while not a 2-for-1, still tazes them pretty hard because they just spent like six mana for a 3 drop.

http://i.imgflip.com/408il.jpg

[Aggro_zombies]

Hexproof was also a step in the right direction as far as making auras playable goes. I hate Hexproof though, along with anything that takes interaction out of the game, like Leylines, Shroud, and Uncounterability. Dumb and lazy design in my opinion.

EDIT- Ninja'd by a ninja
Shroud at least has the drawback of being symmetrical, and as such it's been replaced with hexproof, which has no drawback whatsoever.

The only way they'd be able to make auras playable as a class would be to change the rules of how they work. Auras aren't just bad because you get two-for-one'd if they kill your guy later, they're bad because you must also have a guy to target in the first place and can then get two-for-one'd while the aura is on the stack. It's the same reason you don't often see dedicated combat tricks in Constructed, really - you're mostly better off playing more removal or more dorks rather than cards with targeting restrictions and the opportunity for your opponent to net card advantage at inconvenient times.

[TsumiBand]

The only other thing is to make more Auras with Flash, or start forcing non-interactive game states, with things like Split Second and moar Hexproof guys that reward you for enchanting them.

I think I said as much earlier, but I really thought that the "aura-centric" mechanic would be more like Splice. An Aura with some version of "Splice onto Creature" that would let you cast them at the same time (it couldn't probably be Splice proper, since you just reveal it and not actually cast the Spliced cards) would have plenty of the drawbacks of the aura plan - you still need a dude, it could get countered on the stack, blah blah blah - but you can't get owned by removal quite so easily and it doesn't force you into a 2-step process.

Given that Auras took a major league backseat to Equipment and that's probably not going to change for some time, probably the best possible play would be to just sit back and let the Hexproof guys roll off the presses.

[Humphrey]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=24579&type=card

[Mewens]

I'd really be interested to see how they tested out auras. They clearly tried bigger and better auras (see all the 5- and 6-drops from RAV / TSP block), and they tried mitigating the card disadvantage (again, all the "aura plus a thing" cards from RAV; the "play it again" ones from Urza's, equipment and now bestow) ...

I do wonder if they ever internally pushed auras' power level? I mean, tried out ones that really packed a punch -- ie, R for +4/+0 and "can only be blocked by two or more creatures." I know there's a fine line between between "strong enough to matter" and "promoting blowouts," but everything we've seen regarding auras seems to follow a mindset that auras have been properly costed, just unplayable due to the 2-for-1 specter. (I guess Daybreak Coronet was one attempt. It at least acknowledges that great losses – a 3-for-1 – can be balanced with huge upsides.)

[Barook]

I really don't get R&D sometimes.

Take Dragon Mantle for example. 2-for-1s could be easily prevented if it said "When you cast Dragon Mantle, draw a card". It would make both counters and removal in response much less attractive and make the aura much more valuable since it's guaranteed to replace itself.

[HammafistRoob]

I thought the exact same thing when I first read Mantle on the spoiler a few weeks back. They'd also have to move it up to uncommon to make it decent power level for limited. It'd be to good at common, it already kinda is.

[Aggro_zombies]

I do wonder if they ever internally pushed auras' power level? I mean, tried out ones that really packed a punch -- ie, R for +4/+0 and "can only be blocked by two or more creatures."
Madcap Skills was a huge beating in Limited at twice that cost and only +3/+0.

In fact, I'd be willing to wager that Limited is the primary reason they can't push auras too far. If you make auras too good without good removal, draft and Sealed become ridiculously swingy slugfests. If you make removal stronger to keep pace with that, it sucks depth out of the format: picking removal highly is a no-brainer, which means you have to get lucky and open it or cross your fingers and hope someone passes it to you. You could have a compromise format with strong auras, medium removal, and weak creatures, but that sounds miserable.

[Barook]

Madcap Skills was a huge beating in Limited at twice that cost and only +3/+0.

In fact, I'd be willing to wager that Limited is the primary reason they can't push auras too far. If you make auras too good without good removal, draft and Sealed become ridiculously swingy slugfests. If you make removal stronger to keep pace with that, it sucks depth out of the format: picking removal highly is a no-brainer, which means you have to get lucky and open it or cross your fingers and hope someone passes it to you. You could have a compromise format with strong auras, medium removal, and weak creatures, but that sounds miserable.
Problem is that equipment pretty much does what auras are supposed to do, except better.

IMHO, auras could fill a niche of "spells with permanent benefit" as long as they're supposed to be cast on your own guys (stuff like Pacifism is fine).

Imagine something like this:

Thunderstruck :1::r:
Enchantment - Aura (U)
Enchant creature
When you cast Thunderstruck, it deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
Enchanted creature has first strike.

Basically, a Volcanic Hammer with less suck. I don't play Limited, but I doubt it would break anything at uncommon, considering stuff like Lightning Strike is common and at instant speed.

It would also open alot of design space. Imagine some "spell auras" with the Rancor mechanic (although Wizards would probably overcost it to hell to make it completely unplayable trash).

[TsumiBand]

Imagine something like this:
Thunderstruck
Enchantment - Aura (U)
Enchant creature
When you cast Thunderstruck, it deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
Enchanted creature has first strike.

Galvanic Arc was a thing, and it was pretty okay in Limited as I recall.

I think Auras just fundamentally too dependent and not powerful enough to matter a damn. I mean, you can either Rancor a Kird Ape, or Show and Tell a Darksteel Colossus :(

The most playable 2-card Aura combos in that vein include stuff like the 6-cmc Auratouched Mage and that Academy Researchers, and both are subject to the phrase "in response..."

If Bestow didn't have to cost a fuckton that would be probably the next best thing, but somehow a 1/1 with lifelink that might also be an Aura needs to cost fucking 3W, because drafting. Bleh :/ I mean it's solid in Limited sure, but Jesus the entire card type just mostly sucks in every other format.

[lyracian]

If Bestow didn't have to cost a fuckton that would be probably the next best thing, but somehow a 1/1 with lifelink that might also be an Aura needs to cost fucking 3W, because drafting. Bleh :/ I mean it's solid in Limited sure, but Jesus the entire card type just mostly sucks in every other format.Boon Satyr is good enough for Standard mostly, I think, because of the Flash. Bestow is a great ability the problem is that the bar for creature, even in a trash format like Standard, is still very high and these guys are just not good enough to play as creatures. We need more creatures like Satyr that are aggressively costed as creatures so the Bestow is a 'free extra' you might use once is a while.

[TsumiBand]

Boon Satyr is good enough for Standard mostly, I think, because of the Flash. Bestow is a great ability the problem is that the bar for creature, even in a trash format like Standard, is still very high and these guys are just not good enough to play as creatures. We need more creatures like Satyr that are aggressively costed as creatures so the Bestow is a 'free extra' you might use once is a while.

Well Bestow is overcosted yeah but I just mostly mean the "Enchantment - Aura" idea in general is just probably always going to be one of the weakest strategies in Constructed formats ever, because the relative strength of everything else is usually contingent on the idea that it's great by itself AND with the other cards. Ordeal of [some God] does absolutely nothing unless there's a dude to play it on and creatures being the most interactive card type in most Constructed formats are a terrible place to assume no points of failure in your plan. Hence the favorable approach of Equipment cards; ok fine StP my guy right now, my Equipment falls off and stays in play and I'll just attach it to whatever I draw next.

This is one reason why I played and loved Moldervine Cloak when it was in Standard, because it could fake Equipment's resilience. Kill my dude? Counter the Aura? Random answers to stuff etc? Cool man. Next turn - dredge 2, make whatever's in play +3/+3, crush. It was pretty base, but it was not terrible by any means and none of the creatures in the deck were bad (RG Gruul dumb stuff so like Kird Apes and Scab-Clan Maulers and shit, I think the worst guy was that 1/1 for G with Bloodthirst and "can't be blocked by creatures with less power", so you can imagine my little kid delight when it was a 5/5) so honestly, if there were any "Top 5 Auras" list I'd give Moldervine Cloak the #2 spot behind like Rancor just b/c it's cheap balls cheap and similarly tough to actually get rid of.

Anyway as long as Equipment is good and around Auras will probably just be second fiddle by necessity. Meh.

[lyracian]

Anyway as long as Equipment is good and around Auras will probably just be second fiddle by necessity. Meh.I agree; even Rancor struggled to get played in Legacy these days. You pay an extra mana or two for the resilience Equipment offers but unless they really push the power of Aura's (or more hexproof dudes) the risk/reward is never going to be worth it.

[Darkenslight]

As an aside, Devotion Green Aggro is currently tearing up Cleveland. Just watched the game against WBR Control, ending with a 37/37 Kalonian Hydra and Reverent Hunter.

[Barook]

As an aside, Devotion Green Aggro is currently tearing up Cleveland. Just watched the game against WBR Control, ending with a 37/37 Kalonian Hydra and Reverent Hunter.
Time to speculate on Boon Satyr and Reverent Hunter since they're dirt cheap right now.

[Lord Seth]

What I'd like to see return are those Aura cards that you had the option to cast whenever you could play an Instant, but if you did, you'd have to sacrifice them at end of turn. Stuff like Armor of Thorns or Grave Servitude, for example.

[Infinitium]

Or maybe if wizards ceded the point and just stopped printing new aura cards? It's not like the mechanics of them cannot be reproduced using ordinary enchantments (see: Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo, any number of cards with upkeep triggers).

[rufus]

...
If Bestow didn't have to cost a fuckton that would be probably the next best thing, but somehow a 1/1 with lifelink that might also be an Aura needs to cost fucking 3W, because drafting. Bleh :/ I mean it's solid in Limited sure, but Jesus the entire card type just mostly sucks in every other format.

They could print a cycle or two of creatures with no cc and a bestow cost. Something like:
Divine Force
(no cc)
Creature
Common
If Divine Force is an enchantment, enchanted creature gets +1/+2
Bestow :W:
1/2

They would probably still be terrible in other formats, and be limited thanks to stuff like Aether Vial or Green Sun's Zenith

[Aggro_zombies]

I can't see them doing a null cost at common, but uncommon might be fine for those.

[Darkenslight]

Time to speculate on Boon Satyr and Reverent Hunter since they're dirt cheap right now.

Not on MTGO - a set of each seems to be running 30 tix for nonfoil and 50 for foil.

[Barook]

Not on MTGO - a set of each seems to be running 30 tix for nonfoil and 50 for foil.
Well, I was able to get two Saytrs for 2 Tix, one for 3 Tix, one foil for 3 tix and 2x two hunters for 0.5/1 tix each.

So I'm leaning back now and enjoying the show, especially since Satyr looks like it's becoming a popular Standard staple.

[Barook]

Master of Waves has seen a ridiculous price increase recently.

That said, could it have potential in Merfolk? People discussed the potential of the blue God - Master is itself a Merfolk and brings its own army along. Sure, the army is gone if it dies, but being burn/AD proof with counter back-up might do the trick.

[Tokugawa]

Master of Waves has seen a ridiculous price increase recently.

That said, could it have potential in Merfolk? People discussed the potential of the blue God - Master is itself a Merfolk and brings its own army along. Sure, the army is gone if it dies, but being burn/AD proof with counter back-up might do the trick.
To Max the effect of the master, standard mono-U decks bring full copies of "unplayable" cards like Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter.

Could a merfolk player do the same thing in legacy, to replace Rejeery with some UUU guy? I don't think so...

[Barook]

Could a merfolk player do the same thing in legacy, to replace Rejeery with some UUU guy? I don't think so...
Why would you do something that stupid? There's no reason to run shitty cards.

If you jam down two of your :u::u: lords before it, that's already five 2/1 tokens. I don't think it should be too hard to get to a decent devotion number with a normal build.

[Final Fortune]

To Max the effect of the master, standard mono-U decks bring full copies of "unplayable" cards like Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter.

Could a merfolk player do the same thing in legacy, to replace Rejeery with some UUU guy? I don't think so...

He's also a Wizard, which makes Patron Wizard a solid UUU drop in Wizard.dec to reach high devotion counts.

[HammafistRoob]

Why would you do something that stupid? There's no reason to run shitty cards.

If you jam down two of your :u::u: lords before it, that's already five 2/1 tokens. I don't think it should be too hard to get to a decent devotion number with a normal build.

I'm not sure if they want to be ticking Vials up to four and the mana cost might be to high. I'm also not sure if dodging Bolt and Decay is that relevant since they can just use them to keep your devotin low. Probably worth a try though

[lyracian]

Master of Waves has seen a ridiculous price increase recently.
Is he actually being used in a deck or is it pure speculation? I got one at the pre-release and could not even get $5 for it; maybe it is time to stick it on ebay...

[Barook]

Is he actually being used in a deck or is it pure speculation? I got one at the pre-release and could not even get $5 for it; maybe it is time to stick it on ebay...
Something like this (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6074380)

Thassa also raised due to this.

[Kayradis]

http://i.imgur.com/vqiKzwd.jpg

[cherub_daemon]

Yeah, Swan Song is good against combo but I'm more afraid that it's EVEN BETTER IN blue combo decks like Show & Tell as well as Reanimator.

Speaking of which, does Swan Song make Defense of the Heart an alternate/main plan for SnT-type decks?

Edit: I have apparently forgotten how to do the cool-guy card link thing, and cannot find it. Any assistance is appreciated.
Edit 2: Fixed. Thanks, man.

[theillest]

Speaking of which, does [cards]Swan Song[\cards] make [cards]Defense of the Heart[\cards] an alternate/main plan for SnT-type decks?

Edit: I have apparently forgotten how to do the cool-guy card link thing, and cannot find it. Any assistance is appreciated.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18250-ANNOUNCEMENT-Card-tags-(2-0!)

[Lord Seth]

Is he actually being used in a deck or is it pure speculation? I got one at the pre-release and could not even get $5 for it; maybe it is time to stick it on ebay...
Three people at the Pro Tour made top 8 with a deck with Master of Waves, two of them making it into the finals.

[KobeBryan]

Speaking of which, does Swan Song make Defense of the Heart an alternate/main plan for SnT-type decks?

Edit: I have apparently forgotten how to do the cool-guy card link thing, and cannot find it. Any assistance is appreciated.
Edit 2: Fixed. Thanks, man.

don't end at swan song...drop forbidden orchard too.

[Gheizen64]

Should i open the Commander preview thread? A good sb card for legacy has already been spoiled.

[Tylert]

Yes, go ahead :)