Theros thread

[Nihil Credo]

Preview pictures from SDCC: http://imgur.com/a/PcrmD (except the Jace at the end, that's from FtV as you know)

Don't freak out about the Hero and hydra head cards, apparently those are merely tokens for a launch event minigame and not actual cards from the set.

MaRo puts the stuff in his blog: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/55998229408/so-now-what-can-you-tell-us-about-theros


- It is to Greek mythology what Innistrad was to gothic horror
- Top-down design
- First time I lead the design and Erik Lauer led the development since Innistrad
- the block has an enchantment theme somehow connected to the gods
- The set has gods, heroes and monsters. Each has a new mechanic tied to it
- Of the other two mechanics, one is a repeated mechanic brought back that strongly hits the flavor of Greek mythology; the second is a mechanic that we thought had potential but didn’t live up to it first time out - it has been mechanically retweaked and given a new name and flavor. The last mechanics is also tied to the gods
- There will be more legendary permanents than normal - not Kamigawa but above average
- The set’s tone is one of accomplishment and adventure
- Not a lot of tribal but minotaurs get some love
- Many nods to elements of the stories of Greek myth
- 3 planeswalkers - Elspeth and two new ones
- A few gold cards but mostly monocolored with a little monocolored theme
- A Future Sight card and the set does something we’ve never done before except on another Future Sight card.

My guesses:

- "the set does something we’ve never done before except on another Future Sight card": sounds a lot like Enchantment Creatures (done on Lucent Liminid which has been publicly acknowledged as a disappointment since it doesn't feel like an enchantment)
- "a repeated mechanic brought back that strongly hits the flavor of Greek mythology": I'm looking at Exalted which matches the theme of heroes very well, and Elspeth's presence might have something to do with it as well. Plus, if MaRo typed that sentence a bit strangely he might have been implying that it's been already brought back, which makes it a pretty short list.
- "a mechanic that we thought had potential but didn’t live up to it first time out - it has been mechanically retweaked and given a new name and flavor. The last mechanics is also tied to the gods": Splice onto * would be my guess, but if the gods are tied to the enchantment theme I don't quite see a spell mechanic to go with them. Otherwise it could be one of the zillion attempts at un-fucking Auras that they've tried over the years.


And the best news (http://mtgstocks.com/prints/10705):

http://i.imgur.com/hjZ5arD.png

[HPB_Eggo]

I would assume Banding - unlikely because of how unpopular it was - or, more likely, Exalted or Battalion for the 'Hero' mechanic. I'd put most of my money on Exalted, though.

Could also see a retooling of Bushido as the previously 'disappointing' mechanic, which would be kind of cool.

Outside of that, you just gotta love more Minotaurs and new walkers. Plus, a plethora of legendary stuff for Commander people! What's not to like?

[Aggro_zombies]

Thunder Bluff shall rise again!

The art for this set is nice, but then what Magic art isn't these days.

Given that the set has an enchantment theme, I'm wondering if one of the themes brought back is the "Sleeper" theme from Saga - that is, enchantments that can become creatures under certain circumstances. It would be an interesting mechanic for the Gods - here's this intangible presence that can suddenly become real when it descends from the heavens - although that mechanic wasn't really named the first time around.

I'm not sure how Exalted hints at Greek mythology specifically, though.

EDIT: I guess the card frame for the gods has a power/toughness box, so maybe not on the Sleeper thing.

[HPB_Eggo]

I'm not sure how Exalted hints at Greek mythology specifically, though.

It's meant to capture the feel, which for Heroes could be either a 'one-on-one duel' or a 'band together for victory.' Looking through mechanics there really isn't anything that really hits upon anything specific in Greek mythology that I'm seeing, hence the suggestions for things that 'feel' correct.

I could also see Soulbond and a handful of other things, but unless I'm just being tired and/or stupid my money is currently still on Exalted.

[nedleeds]

"- Not a lot of tribal but minotaurs get some love"

Well we'll see what happens with these Didgeridoo's I'm sitting on. :laugh:

[HammafistRoob]

Holy crap! Maro says the words minotaur and love in the same sentence and the card goes from a buck to almost ten at one point? If he was smart, he'd buy 2000 Steamflogger Boss' and then say the words "rigger" & "contraption". ( I know he's not supposed to do that, but he easily could)

[TsumiBand]

I'm guessing the "Future Sight mechanic redux" is Grandeur? Given the propensity of Legendaries, even with the new uniqueness rule in effect it still blows to draw nothing but Legendary Things, so having shit to do with them would be nice.

Some of that art is fucking sweet btw. I'm no art critic and usually by the time it's shrunk down to Magic card size a lot is lost in translation, but it is all very cool.

Also, not sure if it was explicitly spoiled on MaRo's page, but Random Horde Magic ftw at the prerelease (that whole Hydra boss fight thing)?? That sounds cool as shit.

[L0cke]

Holy crap! Maro says the words minotaur and love in the same sentence and the card goes from a buck to almost ten at one point? If he was smart, he'd buy 2000 Steamflogger Boss' and then say the words "rigger" & "contraption". ( I know he's not supposed to do that, but he easily could)

It actually first spiked around a month ago, which was a month before that post. For a couple weeks there were very few near mint 'Doos available anywhere, probably due to speculation, but buylist prices stayed at like a quarter. Probably just the fact that it is on the Reserved List, and the rumors of Minotaurs caused a lot of people to buy up what little stores had bothered to list.

[apple713]

Didgeridoo still wont be as good as Show and tell imo so im not sure who's wasting 5$ on these things....ofc id like a set just in case they print a minataur that happens to be better than emrakul or griselbrand but id find that really hard to believe.

[ESG]

<strike>Armageddon</strike>Agamemnon?

It would take some pretty unreal minotaurs to make that a playable tribe. Sell your Didgeridoos.

[apple713]

i just found the little artwork that was release. I'm a sucker for Mythology and stuff. I guess this is the set i've been waiting for. Hopefully it'll have a high power level too...(I can dream right)

The card that has caught my attention is that black card with the horns and the whip. The border on that card looks like something similar they did to the borders of miracle cards. It would be nice to have a really cool mechanic like miracles.

[Gheizen64]

After seeing the images for the cities, i'm pretty sure those are duals. Look:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144019&d=1374350825
Meletis
Island (Left side) - Plain (Right side)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144020&d=1374350825
Akris
Plain (Left side) - Mountain (Right side)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144021&d=1374351146
Setessa
Island (Left side) - Forest (Right side)

I'll go even more there and say that those will be Legendary duals but with full card art and with the type on the long side of the card, and no reminder text. This would make them feel more "legendary" even with no additional text, and will show nicely enough that they are "two" lands into one because of the Big art.

Brace yourselves guys, legenduals are comin.

p.s. those land types are in REVERSE order compared to normal duals. Trops are (in modern template) Forest Island, Plateau are Mountain Plain and Tundra'd be Plain Island. Maybe this hint at the fact that those are not exactly duals but something different? Like dual faced duals ? Please no.

[Aggro_zombies]

They could just be doing the thing they did with Lorwyn/Shadowmoor where every color combination had extended art split across that combination's two basics:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143635 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143627

[Gheizen64]

They could just be doing the thing they did with Lorwyn/Shadowmoor where every color combination had extended art split across that combination's two basics:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143635 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143627

LET A MAN DREAM!

Also i'd find that hard to be because those are pretty important cities for the Set, and especially with the legendary theme, i'm not seeing those being basic lands art.

EDIT: also they're a mix of Enemy and allies colors. So we will have duals over 3 sets, like old Ravnica.

EDIT2: The "something done in future sight" could be hinting at full art duals too (Future sight had full art cards)

EDIT3: that's an ugly mountain if i have ever seen one

[from Cairo]

The art on the cities is baller. I just hope that they are playables, be that basics or legendary duals. If they wind up being garbage bulk rares I would be disappointed.

In general the art in this set is looking cool.

[lyracian]

I am loving the art for the set. The 3 picturs of Elspeth with Halberd look great. I could see the Gods being done as Enchantment/Creatures.

Even if they do print Legend-Duals I do not see it having much effect on Legacy. Budget players save on buying a Duel or two; Surgical Extraction gets weaker as players mix there mana-base a little; a few decks will play five duals but with all the current options (Friend-Land, Fast-Land,Shocks) I do not see that making an impact.

If we are really lucky they will print some uber-powered God Creature that gets "Show n Tell" banned! :smile:
Beyond that I am not expecting anything from the set and will just wait to be presently surprised by what they do produce.

[Gheizen64]

I am loving the art for the set. The 3 picturs of Elspeth with Halberd look great. I could see the Gods being done as Enchantment/Creatures.

Even if they do print Legend-Duals I do not see it having much effect on Legacy. Budget players save on buying a Duel or two; Surgical Extraction gets weaker as players mix there mana-base a little; a few decks will play five duals but with all the current options (Friend-Land, Fast-Land,Shocks) I do not see that making an impact.

If we are really lucky they will print some uber-powered God Creature that gets "Show n Tell" banned! :smile:
Beyond that I am not expecting anything from the set and will just wait to be presently surprised by what they do produce.

Being able to save on one Sea, one Tundra in Esper for example is a pretty big deal monetary wise. But mostly, i think we'd see a lot more renewed interest in Legacy, and i'd love to see more tournaments, some more unbanned cards etc...

[lyracian]

Being able to save on one Sea, one Tundra in Esper for example is a pretty big deal monetary wise. But mostly, i think we'd see a lot more renewed interest in Legacy, and i'd love to see more tournaments, some more unbanned cards etc...Sure you can shave $300-$400 off a decks value with a Legendry Tundra/Sea/Scrubland it does not help you get Jace, Delta or other cards to become a playable deck. I just do not see it making Legacy that much more appealing to start playing. (although it would be nice to be proved wrong)

[Barook]

Thunder Bluff is back, bitches!


- Top-down design
That's the nice way of saying that it's going to be boring crap.

Most of the legendaries are probably going to cater the Commander marktet. And Wizards is going to make mad cash with it.

[theBloody]

Can't wait to build didgeridoo + trinket mage awesomeness.

[Occam]

I like how Heliod and Erebos are direct nods to the Greek Gods. Elspeth herself has parallels to Athena. Ares and Poseidon will be up for the red and blue Gods, I guess. Nessian Courser surely has to be up for a reprint as well, as this is probably the only set/block which has an etymological link to his name. The art is fantastic.

I want to see the gigantomachy and titanomachy reflected somehow.

While grandeur etc are more likely mechanics, I can potentially see morph happening as well. After all, there was some mention about the gods walking amongst the mortals.

For the GoT fans, does the Gorgon's throne not seem like a petrified version of the iron throne? Pretty sweet.

Edit to say I don't think duals are happening, although the art does seem congruent with that thought -- there was a statement that denied mana fixing in this block to channel people into dual colour strategies, right?

[Infinitium]

So am I the only one worried about them introducing new card (or possibly token) types? "Elite" creatures which apparently add up to one large creature? "Hero" cards that from the looks of it works as old equipment mono artifacts? Are the current restraints of the game really so devoid of innovative space that they keep having to make new shit up as they go?

EDIT: Also, "At the end of the Hydra's end step"? As in it has its own turn? They've introduced fucking neutral monsters?

EDIT EDIT: Okay so those were only for a launch event. Apparantly reading the op is tech. I guess the land art and constellation monsters are purty then. Whatever.

[Gheizen64]

I like how Heliod and Erebos are direct nods to the Greek Gods. Elspeth herself has parallels to Athena. Ares and Poseidon will be up for the red and blue Gods, I guess. Nessian Courser surely has to be up for a reprint as well, as this is probably the only set/block which has an etymological link to his name. The art is fantastic.

I want to see the gigantomachy and titanomachy reflected somehow.

While grandeur etc are more likely mechanics, I can potentially see morph happening as well. After all, there was some mention about the gods walking amongst the mortals.

For the GoT fans, does the Gorgon's throne not seem like a petrified version of the iron throne? Pretty sweet.

Edit to say I don't think duals are happening, although the art does seem congruent with that thought -- there was a statement that denied mana fixing in this block to channel people into dual colour strategies, right?

There was a statement that said that the new duals won't make it as easy to go tri-color. Legenduals+shocks, differently from checks+shockland, are pretty shit for tricolors.

[Gheizen64]

So am I the only one worried about them introducing new card (or possibly token) types? "Elite" creatures which apparently add up to one large creature? "Hero" cards that from the looks of it works as old equipment mono artifacts? Are the current restraints of the game really so devoid of innovative space that they keep having to make new shit up as they go?

EDIT: Also, "At the end of the Hydra's end step"? As in it has its own turn? They've introduced fucking neutral monsters?

Dude it's only for the pre-release? Dude? Plz tell us you're ok.

Also i got a leak in world preview

http://i.imgur.com/utoSlhG.png?1

:cool:

[nedleeds]

Didgeridoo still wont be as good as Show and tell imo so im not sure who's wasting 5$ on these things....ofc id like a set just in case they print a minataur that happens to be better than emrakul or griselbrand but id find that really hard to believe.

You don't understand shit if you are comparing it to Show and Tell, it costs 1. Compare it to Aether Vial. That's like saying why play Merfolk when you can Show and Tell Emrakul.

[TsumiBand]

So am I the only one worried about them introducing new card (or possibly token) types? "Elite" creatures which apparently add up to one large creature? "Hero" cards that from the looks of it works as old equipment mono artifacts? Are the current restraints of the game really so devoid of innovative space that they keep having to make new shit up as they go?

EDIT: Also, "At the end of the Hydra's end step"? As in it has its own turn? They've introduced fucking neutral monsters?

EDIT EDIT: Okay so those were only for a launch event. Apparantly reading the op is tech. I guess the land art and constellation monsters are purty then. Whatever.

Yeah the Launch event sounds rad to be honest. If it works like I think it does, it's something like Horde Magic. Conceptually I like the idea of a deck that runs on autopilot and goldfishes while X number of human players try to win. It's probably executed a lot cleaner than actual Zombie Horde Magic b/c there are a billion different things that just wreck a Zombie Horde deck - Moat, Elesh Norn, etc etc etc - and with regular Magic cards there are a ton of cards the Horde deck can't play because they involve making decisions. So a deck tailored to a particular Block of cards that eliminates the awkwardness of decision-making is a pretty interesting idea. IMO.

[DLifshitz]

Also i got a leak in world preview

This looks shopped.

In all seriousness, I doubt we'll just get legendary ABUR duals, if only because that would break Modern manabases. It would be awesome, though.

[TsumiBand]

This looks shopped.

In all seriousness, I doubt we'll just get legendary ABUR duals, if only because that would break Modern manabases. It would be awesome, though.

Then they can just ban more commons. Who cares heh. This is why people play Eternal formats right? To have insane manabases that permit fantastic plays that are way fucking better than Block Constructed?

[HPB_Eggo]

I'm guessing the "Future Sight mechanic redux" is Grandeur? Given the propensity of Legendaries, even with the new uniqueness rule in effect it still blows to draw nothing but Legendary Things, so having shit to do with them would be nice.

Eh. Grandeur showed up on a lot of things in Future Sight and the only reference specifically to Future Sight was about something they'd only done on one card. Not ruling it out, cause it would be cool, but it won't come out of the Future Sight reference.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Forecast! It's got the Greek/godly oracular flavour, and was an awesome idea but not particularly well done.

[Aggro_zombies]

EDIT: also they're a mix of Enemy and allies colors.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143618http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143632

Being a mix doesn't mean anything.

I sincerely doubt we'll see legendary duals. Maybe legendary lands that fix multiple colors and have some other ability, but not legendary duals.

Grandeur might be interesting in this set, but it's hard to say. We were told there were more legendaries than usual, but still fewer than Kamigawa (and thank god for that). That said, Grandeur is basically a blank ability for Limited, and I'm not sure they'd want an entire mechanic to be more-or-less totally dead in one of the more popular formats. On the other hand, Cipher was not too hot in Limited, so it's a possibility.

[Gheizen64]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143618http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=143632

Being a mix doesn't mean anything.

I sincerely doubt we'll see legendary duals. Maybe legendary lands that fix multiple colors and have some other ability, but not legendary duals.

Grandeur might be interesting in this set, but it's hard to say. We were told there were more legendaries than usual, but still fewer than Kamigawa (and thank god for that). That said, Grandeur is basically a blank ability for Limited, and I'm not sure they'd want an entire mechanic to be more-or-less totally dead in one of the more popular formats. On the other hand, Cipher was not too hot in Limited, so it's a possibility.

Why would you respond to an observation as if it was a point directed to you?

[Nihil Credo]

MaRo and others have said over and over that they hate how Legendary lands play and they only make them for rare exceptions that won't force you to risk manascrewing yourself, i.e. that you don't want to play in too many copies (Eye of Ugin, Maze's End).

Legendary duals will not be printed in the near future.

[Aggro_zombies]

Why would you respond to an observation as if it was a point directed to you?
...I'm not? I'm simply pointing out that there's precedent for doing all ten color combinations as panoramic basic lands.

I'm wondering if the "X Offering" mechanic from Betrayers might be something they'd bring back. Sacrifice to the gods is pretty universal across ancient religions, and they could tweak it such that it's not tied to certain tribes, but instead just a general "feed dudes" kind of thing.

EDIT: @Nihil: Oddly, Maze's End isn't legendary, although it seems like it should be. Even for legendary-sounding locations (*cough**cough*Valakut*cough*), they seem to just be okay with making them non-legendary lands. In that sense, the Eye was kind of a fluke.

Also - amusingly - when you do a simple search on Gatherer for card type "land" and set the filter to "Legendary," all of the blue-producing duals/shocks show up, as well as basic and snow-covered Islands. Clearly, we're due for some power-level errata!

[swoop]

Please dont panick over legendary duals just take two asperen all is good

[TsumiBand]

Also - amusingly - when you do a simple search on Gatherer for card type "land" and set the filter to "Legendary," all of the blue-producing duals/shocks show up, as well as basic and snow-covered Islands. Clearly, we're due for some power-level errata!

The filters on Gatherer suck. In fact I cannot stand that site b/c it always loses my session like right in the middle of browsing like 5 pages of hits for any given random search, and then only lets me reload and start over sometimes. I dunno if that's a shared experience or not but it happens to me at work and at home.

Anyway, MaRo's been called out - and acknowledged it - for providing misinformation about what WotC is "willing" to let see print. I'm not offering this as proof of Legenduals, but I am saying that they have no compunction when it comes to outright lying about upcoming sets. Which is fine, no reason to ruin the fun of spoiler season - just saying is all :P

[Gheizen64]

MaRo and others have said over and over that they hate how Legendary lands play and they only make them for rare exceptions that won't force you to risk manascrewing yourself, i.e. that you don't want to play in too many copies (Eye of Ugin, Maze's End).

Legendary duals will not be printed in the near future.

Maro also said that the change on the legendary rules allow them to finally print more legendary lands.

Also Maro said many things. I prefer to dream, no asperen for me thanks :D

I'm not bothered to find it now :rolleyes:

[Aggro_zombies]

The filters on Gatherer suck. In fact I cannot stand that site b/c it always loses my session like right in the middle of browsing like 5 pages of hits for any given random search, and then only lets me reload and start over sometimes. I dunno if that's a shared experience or not but it happens to me at work and at home.

Anyway, MaRo's been called out - and acknowledged it - for providing misinformation about what WotC is "willing" to let see print. I'm not offering this as proof of Legenduals, but I am saying that they have no compunction when it comes to outright lying about upcoming sets. Which is fine, no reason to ruin the fun of spoiler season - just saying is all :P
Legenduals don't have great game play, though. I think at this point, harking back to Alpha matters less than the ability to fetch these cards, and only being able to have one of your awesome mana fixers in play at a time because Legend Rule doesn't seem like a great selling point for cards that would probably be construed as violating the spirit of the Reserved List.

My guess is the art we've been shown is either concept art from the Style Guide or else panoramic art for basic lands, possibly a mix of both.

EDIT: Yeah, Gatherer does have issues. It annoys me to no end that I can't, say, search for all multicolor cards in a specific wedge or shard because the system explodes if you try to tell it to "require multicolor" and "exclude unselected colors". For example, if I want just Esper multicolor cards, there's no way to get it to show me just WU, UB, WB, and WUB cards. You have to search all multicolor cards that include the colors you want and just skim past the combinations you don't like.

[theBloody]

This (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&color=+![R]+![G]+[B]+[W]+[U]) is not satisfying? But yeah, their logical equations are pretty limited.

[Amon Amarth]

As a huge history nerd and someone who has watched a lot of 300 and played a shitload of God of War I'm more excited for this set than any previous expansion. Such sweet flavor, like Innistrad but with way more badassery and awesomeness! Now if they would just give me some Urza's Saga-level enchantments(so I can play ridic, creatureless combo/control decks) and Academy Ruins for enchantments(ditto) I can go back to being happy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eDQbN-ftGWg/UetRyPHcPiI/AAAAAAAAUGE/S3U-VLyukto/s1600/theros+god+card.jpg



:14::u::u::b::b::b::r::r:

Minokul, the Grisletaur
Legendary Creature - Minotaur Mothafucka
_____________________________________

Annihilator: 7, Banding, Flying, First Strike,
Haste, Hexproof, Islandwalk, Lifelink,
Rampage: 7, Trample, Vigilance

Whenever Minokul attacks, draw fourteen cards.
Whenever Minokul blocks, attacking player
discards fourteen cards.


"We wished the old forgotten cards like Show and Tell
to become at least a little bit playable." Mark Rosewater.

_____________________________________ 14/14

[Gheizen64]

I bet 10$ that there won't be a cheap (2 or less cmc), playable minotaur in Red. Screw that, i'd bet 1000$.

And if we get a red planeswalker, i'd bet it sucks. And if we got a red chaos enchantment, it will cost 4RRR and be casual random shit as always.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I bet 10$ that there won't be a cheap (2 or less cmc), playable minotaur in Red. Screw that, i'd bet 1000$.


Otoh, I still pity that I didn't hoard the Didgeridoos when Changelings were introduced in LRW. :laugh:

[Barook]

I bet 10$ that there won't be a cheap (2 or less cmc), playable minotaur in Red. Screw that, i'd bet 1000$.

And if we get a red planeswalker, i'd bet it sucks. And if we got a red chaos enchantment, it will cost 4RRR and be casual random shit as always.

I doubt we're getting another red Planeswalker so fast, considering red got a "good" walker in M14. Elspeth is going to be white again. We'll habe to wait and see about the other two.

@Bed Decks Palyer: That's a God card.

[Lemnear]

MaRo and others have said over and over that they hate how Legendary lands play and they only make them for rare exceptions that won't force you to risk manascrewing yourself, i.e. that you don't want to play in too many copies (Eye of Ugin, Maze's End).

Legendary duals will not be printed in the near future.

MaRo said he hated the Legendary lands because any additonali copy you have in you hand/draw is dead. That's why they changed the legend-rule to Print Legendary Lands again.

[Gheizen64]

I doubt we're getting another red Planeswalker so fast, considering red got a "good" walker in M14. Elspeth is going to be white again. We'll habe to wait and see about the other two.

@Bed Decks Palyer: That's a God card.

New chandra didn't see Standard play the first two weeks from releas. It'd be hilarious if it end as a 10$ junk mithic again :laugh:

10$ bought duals once. I remember bitching because they costed 3$ :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Stan]

You don't understand shit if you are comparing it to Show and Tell, it costs 1. Compare it to Aether Vial. That's like saying why play Merfolk when you can Show and Tell Emrakul.

Have you bothered to read the textbox of the card? It costs 3 generic to activate. It can be put in play in the first turn, but it costs as much as a S&T to activate, and if you want to cast and use it in the same turn, it's even more expensive.

[Gheizen64]

Have you bothered to read the textbox of the card? It costs 3 generic to activate. It can be put in play in the first turn, but it costs as much as a S&T to activate, and if you want to cast and use it in the same turn, it's even more expensive.

What he mean it's that a much, much harder to answer it since you play it on T1 and can generate mana advantage all game long like a vial. It's more comparable to a vial than a SnT, unless they print some truely broken 10 mana minotaurs. But if the most they print are 5-6 cmc ones, Digeridoo act like a pseudo-vial that need mana but is faster for larger creatures.

[Barook]

New chandra didn't see Standard play the first two weeks from releas. It'd be hilarious if it end as a 10$ junk mithic again :laugh:

It would be so satisfying to see her fail, especially after Maro acting so smug about her being so amazing.


Have you bothered to read the textbox of the card? It costs 3 generic to activate. It can be put in play in the first turn, but it costs as much as a S&T to activate, and if you want to cast and use it in the same turn, it's even more expensive.
Digeridoo is just one-sided, which is a big plus. But seriously, they would need to print a bunch of broken Minotaurs to make it remotely useful. S&T is still going to be better.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Digeridoo is just one-sided, which is a big plus. But seriously, they would need to print a bunch of broken Minotaurs to make it remotely useful. S&T is still going to be better.
Except that it really really shouldn't be compared to and used like S&T, because it really really is Minotaurus Vial. /didgeridoo

[Megadeus]

You play didgeridoo, turn two cast standstill. Turn 3 vial in a minotaur. Profit.

[Stan]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eDQbN-ftGWg/UetRyPHcPiI/AAAAAAAAUGE/S3U-VLyukto/s1600/theros+god+card.jpg



:14::u::u::b::b::b::r::r:

Minokul, the Grisletaur
Legendary Creature - Minotaur Mothafucka
_____________________________________

Annihilator: 7, Banding, Flying, First Strike,
Haste, Hexproof, Islandwalk, Lifelink,
Rampage: 7, Trample, Vigilance

Whenever Minokul attacks, draw fourteen cards.
Whenever Minokul blocks, attacking player
discards fourteen cards.


"We wished the old forgotten cards like Show and Tell
to become at least a little bit playable." Mark Rosewater.

_____________________________________ 14/14

Can be pitched to Force of Willl, so I guess it'd be playable. :laugh:

[ahg113]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eDQbN-ftGWg/UetRyPHcPiI/AAAAAAAAUGE/S3U-VLyukto/s1600/theros+god+card.jpg



:14::u::u::b::b::b::r::r:

Minokul, the Grisletaur
Legendary Creature - Minotaur Mothafucka
_____________________________________

Annihilator: 7, Banding, Flying, First Strike,
Haste, Hexproof, Islandwalk, Lifelink,
Rampage: 7, Trample, Vigilance

Whenever Minokul attacks, draw fourteen cards.
Whenever Minokul blocks, attacking player
discards fourteen cards.


"We wished the old forgotten cards like Show and Tell
to become at least a little bit playable." Mark Rosewater.

_____________________________________ 14/14

I like it, but it dies to Go For The Throat. Needs moar indestructible or protection from ~.

[Lemnear]

I like it, but it dies to Go For The Throat. Needs moar indestructible or protection from ~.

Hexproof?

Flying + Islandwalk is a BIT redundant ;)

[apple713]

You play didgeridoo, turn two cast standstill. Turn 3 vial in a minotaur. Profit.

Great so its a vial that that you have to pay for and is extremly limited in scope.



You don't understand shit if you are comparing it to Show and Tell, it costs 1. Compare it to Aether Vial. That's like saying why play Merfolk when you can Show and Tell Emrakul.

its like a mix of both cards really. Here's why. Its like aether vial because it cost 1 and is an artifact. its like Show and tell because it cost 3 to activate... COINCIDENTALLY show and tell has a CMC of 3, imagine that? Additionally if you are playing a horde of minotaurs that curve out very low like merfolk aethervial is better cause you dont have to pay to activate it. If you are playing a bunch of minotuars that are very high CMC and expecting to cheat them into play, Show and tell is better casue it doesnt get pithing needled, or gripped. If you are planning to activate it the turn you cast it you are now looking at comparing it to Sneak attack, except it doesnt give the creature haste and you dont sacrifice it.

There are going to have to be some godly minotuars for this to be used over all of the other options.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hexproof?

Flying + Islandwalk is a BIT redundant ;)

With flying you may block Hypnotic Specter and with islandwalk you have no fear that the opponent gang-blocks your Minokul with double Jokulmorder. Worldspine Wurm, however, still remains a bit troublesome...

[ahg113]

Hexproof?

Flying + Islandwalk is a BIT redundant ;)

True, then I guess indestructible to save from Wrath.

[kingtk3]

True, then I guess indestructible to save from Wrath.

Better to give him:

"0: exile <this> and return it to the Battlefield at the begin of the next end of turn."
This way it's also terminus proof ;)

[ahg113]

Better to give him:

"0: exile <this> and return it to the Battlefield at the begin of the next end of turn."
This way it's also terminus proof ;)

Would also save him from Diabolic Edict sac effects as well. Better suggestion is good.

[Megadeus]

Great so its a vial that that you have to pay for and is extremly limited in scope.




its like a mix of both cards really. Here's why. Its like aether vial because it cost 1 and is an artifact. its like Show and tell because it cost 3 to activate... COINCIDENTALLY show and tell has a CMC of 3, imagine that? Additionally if you are playing a horde of minotaurs that curve out very low like merfolk aethervial is better cause you dont have to pay to activate it. If you are playing a bunch of minotuars that are very high CMC and expecting to cheat them into play, Show and tell is better casue it doesnt get pithing needled, or gripped. If you are planning to activate it the turn you cast it you are now looking at comparing it to Sneak attack, except it doesnt give the creature haste and you dont sacrifice it.

There are going to have to be some godly minotuars for this to be used over all of the other options.

Thefact the you can cheat them into play at instant speed, and they stick around permanently makes it much more like vial. And you obviously are only going to play it if you are running high cost dudes to cheat in. Think of it as an aether vial that doesn't need you to run a curve. Also getting dudes under a standstill is awesome

[catmint]

Didgeridoo should not be compared to show & tell but rather to sneak and show. IF they print a super broken minotaur it could be doo + show. But since doo does not work with griselbrand the monster has to be really good. The advantage would be getting rid of red and beeing a lot less weak to manadisruption & taxing counters but the tradeoff is beeing weak to decay. My prediction unless there is a minotaur at the powerlevel of griselbrand the didgeridoos will stay in the colloectors binder.

[Megadeus]

You really don't need to be derping out busted ten drops. But if you could say cheat in some powerful 6-7 mana dudes then I could see it being a thing.

[apple713]

Thefact the you can cheat them into play at instant speed, and they stick around permanently makes it much more like vial. And you obviously are only going to play it if you are running high cost dudes to cheat in. Think of it as an aether vial that doesn't need you to run a curve. Also getting dudes under a standstill is awesome

and running high cost dudes to cheat in makes it like....you guessed it show and tell

yes getting dudes under a standstill is awesome but even merfolk has dropped standstill from their list because it is too conditional.

This will be a tier 3 deck at best

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why we just can't play the curves-and-cheats Didgeridoo.dec? Think Goblins. They don't cheat Emrakul into play, but ain't that deck quite powerful even without Emmie?

Imagine something like this (rough list, ok):

Lands:
16 Mountain (AN)
4 Wasteland (TE)

Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial (DKS)
4 Didgeridoo (HL)

Creatures:

4 Minotaur Lackey (THE)

4 Minotaur Herddriver (BOG)

4 Minotaur Cow (BOG)
3 Minotaur King (JIN)
3 Minotaur Warchieftain (THE)

4 Taurus Herdleader (JIN)

3 Bull Minotaur (THE)
1 Emanuelle, the Big Udder (THE)


tl,dr: Lets wait for Theros.

[SilverGreen]

Yeah, Gatherer does have issues. It annoys me to no end that I can't, say, search for all multicolor cards in a specific wedge or shard because the system explodes if you try to tell it to "require multicolor" and "exclude unselected colors". For example, if I want just Esper multicolor cards, there's no way to get it to show me just WU, UB, WB, and WUB cards. You have to search all multicolor cards that include the colors you want and just skim past the combinations you don't like.And that's why Providence has provided the World with Magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/).

Seriously. I can't understand why people are so eager to keep suffering. Just fuck the hell out of this shitty Gatherer thing.

[Richard Cheese]

Is this thread seriously still about Didgeridoo? We should build a labyrinth to house this completely pointless discussion.

http://media.oglaf.com/comic/labyrinth.jpg

[Barook]

If Theros is a success, we might get other sets inspired by other, popular mythologies.

E.g Norse mythology with Vikings and co. - that would be pretty sweet.

[Amon Amarth]

If Theros is a success, we might get other sets inspired by other, popular mythologies.

E.g Norse mythology with Vikings and co. - that would be pretty sweet.

This is already, somewhat, a thing.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198084

As well as Warstorm Surge.

[Stan]

If Theros is a success, we might get other sets inspired by other, popular mythologies.

E.g Norse mythology with Vikings and co. - that would be pretty sweet.

You may not have been playing long enough to remember this, but such a block already exists. Ice Age.

[JanoschEausH]

You may not have been playing long enough to remember this, but such a block already exists. Ice Age.

They should totally make a block based on oriental myths n stuff!

[Darkenslight]

They should totally make a block based on oriental myths n stuff!

It's called Kamigawa block, and it focusses mainly on Japanese mythology.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also, wouldn't be nice to have an Africa-inspired block?














:tongue:

[Lemnear]

They should totally make a block based on oriental myths n stuff!

Arabian Nights not good enough for you? Portal 3 Kingdoms for Chinese Myth, Kamigawa for Japanese. What do you want more?


Also, wouldn't be nice to have an Africa-inspired block?


Mirage?




I rather wanna see an Egypt-Themed Set.

[Barook]

Also, wouldn't be nice to have an Africa-inspired block?
Torment was already a black-heavy set. :tongue:

[nedleeds]

Have you bothered to read the textbox of the card? It costs 3 generic to activate. It can be put in play in the first turn, but it costs as much as a S&T to activate, and if you want to cast and use it in the same turn, it's even more expensive.

You want to cast it on turn one Snip.. It costs 1 ... like Aether Vial. It's not a Sorcery. It's not blue. It's an artifact ... like Aether Vial. It allows you to flash in men ... Like Aether Vial. It pairs with mana denial and/or Standstill ... like Aether Vial.

It's 1,000,000 times more like Aether Vial than Show and Tell.

It's a recurring way to cheat men into play ... it's not Show and Tell. Snip.

Whether it sucks or not is not what's being debated, it sucks only relative to the Minotaur's that get printed. If Griselbrand had been a Demon Minotaur Advisor Plant it would be a $50 card.

Cut out flames. Knock it off and keep it civil.

[Bignasty197]

Torment was already a black-heavy set. :tongue:

Lol'd hard. Well done, sir.

[Lord Seth]

Arabian Nights not good enough for you? Portal 3 Kingdoms for Chinese Myth, Kamigawa for Japanese. What do you want more?
It's hard for it to be "good enough" when, even ignoring their extremely limited print runs, both were from 12+ years ago.

[JanoschEausH]

They should totally make a block based on oriental myths n stuff!

For the ones who didn't get it... I was obviously trolling...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

For the ones who didn't get it... I was obviously trolling...
For the ones who didn't get it... I was also trolling...

[TsumiBand]

I understood the trolls, and the trolls of the trolls, and I thought the black joke went a little too far, but then I went to sleep and got over all these things.

The hubbub around Didgeridoo is just mind-boggling. It necessarily has to drop a threat on a par with both the average Aether Vial play as well as the average Show and Tell play in order to warrant any of this discussion. Changeling shenanigans aside (for now) the only ones that seem to be worth a damn are pretty schlocky when compared to what Vial and S&T have to offer. Unless I'm wildly undervaluing Boros Reckoner and like, Blaze Commando and Etherium-Horn Sorceror (which won't even trigger if you cheat it into play, so just no), there's just no cause to talk about it yet.

It's like talking about a new set and some WotC yutz goes, "Oh and BTW, we are printing some Kithkin" and then suddenly people are speculating about whether or not Ballyrush Banneret is going to become a format pillar. Just maybe wait for the bloody cards to actually get spoiled. Everyone will have a chance to discuss the actual merits of Didgeridoo after we have actual facts about actual cards that are actually in the set -- and yeah if there is a sweet turn 1 Didgeridoo, turn 2 Ancient Tomb -> BEEF play then you're damn right I want in on that shit, but I question the logic in anticipating it. Because seriously, the best Minotaurs aren't even proper Minotaurs - Mirror Entity and Chameleon Colossus are not exactly superior to your average S&T plays, though I guess a case could be made that they are somehow as strong as an Aether Vial play. Kind of. Except Vial doesn't tap your manas if you need to main phase a thing. So I dunno. Stop talking about it :)

[HPB_Eggo]

Eh. Didgeridoo does't need a single Minotaur on the power level of Griselbrand to be playable. All it really needs is 4-5 Minotaurs with huge, Legacy-tier ETB impact that cost 5+ mana. As it stands, there aren't any of those sorts of Minotaurs.

As an example, imagine if Blaze Commando had Haste, his ability read "Whenever a source you control deals non-combat damage to a creature an opponent controls..." and he dealt one damage to target creature, then two damage to target creature, then three damage to target creature when entering the battlefield. Those creatures cannot block this turn.

Not on par with Griselbrand, but still strong enough to make Didgeridoo a consistent finisher in a Minotaur deck if such a deck were something that could be played to begin with. Even if there were only two big Minotaurs worth playing, if enough smaller Minotaurs existed to make a somewhat decent deck out of them, Didgeridoo could become an actual card.

Regardless, I'll agree that there isn't a ton of point to discussing the card before seeing what's being printed, but if you're going to make that argument we might as well just freeze the whole thread and wait until they start revealing actual cards. Fact is, most of this thread is pretty 'useless,' but that doesn't mean it isn't fun to sit around and speculate on what might happen. If you don't like it, don't participate in it and don't read it.

[Michael Keller]

The bottom line is this: Theros and the subsequent sets following it will contain new Minotaurs. Didgeridoo - from a basic, fundamental standpoint - has a very powerful ability. Aether Vial is the obvious correlation, but don't forget - there's a stark difference between the two besides the obvious restriction to Minotaurs. This of course is mana investment versus turn progression. In order for Vial to be truly effective, you need to be able to have a few turns in order for it to really get going.

Didgeridoo, on the other hand, immediately enables you to cheat your creatures into play for three colorless mana a piece. In a deck utilizing Ancient Tombs and or City of Traitors, it's not unreasonable to assume you'll be able to drop a turn-two guy with some serious firepower. Didgeridoo is also a far better top-deck than its counterpart at most points in the game, which is obviously a plus.

The only thing we're waiting for is the spoiler. Once that happens and some sort of mammoth Minotaur(s) sees print, Didgeridoo could become a legitimately powerful turn-one play - and that much stronger actually on the play.

[TsumiBand]

Well sure, but there are a lot of cards out there that are one half of an engine waiting for the broken combo piece - just because someone says 'Minotaurs get some love' doesn't anticipate a new deck.

As stated, Aether Vial's no mana activation means that you can drop threats and scale up those threats in two different ways; playing lands and/or via Vial. Didg can't do that, so it will not function as a Vial for Minotaurs, it isn't able to.

So comparing it to Show and Tell is logical because it is so similar to that as well - pay 3 to ignore the mana cost of something and put it into play. So what kind of threat facilitates that? What kind of deck facilitates that?

Here's the other great thing about Aether Vial - most of decks that can play it do not completely suck if they don't see it. So in order for Didgeridoo to matter a damn, it will have to somehow be a more relevant version of Vial (if only for this specific tribe) and somehow also not be in a deck which is super terrible if it doesn't draw a Didgeridoo. I could just lack imagination, but I have trouble envisioning a deck that has a mana curve which would prefer to see a Didgeridoo than an Aether Vial, but also doesn't care if it doesn't draw it because it can still do good things without it. It could be one of those "shut up and play both" things, but then you're talking about a deck trying to compete with Goblins for conceptual space (Vial + Lackey to drop threats vs. Vial + Didgeridoo to drop threats) and unless there are some bomb-ass Minotaurs in Theros it will be difficult to convince people that this deck would be stronger than Gobbos.

[StefN]

@ Didgeridoo: Just my 5cents.

To be honest. I'm totally exited what kind of Minotaur they will bring out. The thing about Didgeridoo is, that it's powerlevel is totally absurd. It's a Vial and Show&Tell in one card, and that's pretty insane. Just imagine, instead of Minotaur you could cheat in Eldrazis, or whatever....Dragons?? Everyone would be like....WOW..........yeah but I know it's not, so we have to wait what will come in Theros.

Didgeridoo could possibly enable two different types of decks. If Wizards would print two "Emrakul/Progenitus" Minotaur a SnT like deck could be possible. TrinketMage, EnTutor, Didgeridoo, SolLands whatever. If it would be good enough? Not sure, depends strongly on the powerlevel of the Minotaur fatties.

The other route (and that's the one I'm more excited about), is the Goblin, Merfolk route where you use Didgeridoo as a Vial. I could thinck of a mixture of cheap and a few expensive Minotaur so that we can abuse the whole potential of Didgeridoo, but also play most of the Minotaur without it. Again it absolutely depends on the Minotaur that we will see in the future...................

[Darkenslight]

@ Didgeridoo: Just my 5cents.

To be honest. I'm totally exited what kind of Minotaur they will bring out. The thing about Didgeridoo is, that it's powerlevel is totally absurd. It's a Vial and Show&Tell in one card, and that's pretty insane. Just imagine, instead of Minotaur you could cheat in Eldrazis, or whatever....Dragons?? Everyone would be like....WOW..........yeah but I know it's not, so we have to wait what will come in Theros.

Didgeridoo could possibly enable two different types of decks. If Wizards would print two "Emrakul/Progenitus" Minotaur a SnT like deck could be possible. TrinketMage, EnTutor, Didgeridoo, SolLands whatever. If it would be good enough? Not sure, depends strongly on the powerlevel of the Minotaur fatties.

The other route (and that's the one I'm more excited about), is the Goblin, Merfolk route where you use Didgeridoo as a Vial. I could thinck of a mixture of cheap and a few expensive Minotaur so that we can abuse the whole potential of Didgeridoo, but also play most of the Minotaur without it. Again it absolutely depends on the Minotaur that we will see in the future...................

Artificial Evolution?

[(nameless one)]

@ Didgeridoo: Just my 5cents.

To be honest. I'm totally exited what kind of Minotaur they will bring out. The thing about Didgeridoo is, that it's powerlevel is totally absurd. It's a Vial and Show&Tell in one card, and that's pretty insane. Just imagine, instead of Minotaur you could cheat in Eldrazis, or whatever....Dragons?? Everyone would be like....WOW..........yeah but I know it's not, so we have to wait what will come in Theros.

Didgeridoo could possibly enable two different types of decks. If Wizards would print two "Emrakul/Progenitus" Minotaur a SnT like deck could be possible. TrinketMage, EnTutor, Didgeridoo, SolLands whatever. If it would be good enough? Not sure, depends strongly on the powerlevel of the Minotaur fatties.

The other route (and that's the one I'm more excited about), is the Goblin, Merfolk route where you use Didgeridoo as a Vial. I could thinck of a mixture of cheap and a few expensive Minotaur so that we can abuse the whole potential of Didgeridoo, but also play most of the Minotaur without it. Again it absolutely depends on the Minotaur that we will see in the future...................

All this Conspiracy talk is driving the price of Didgeridoo up. Maybe I should pick them up.

[catmint]

Don't get why people keep talking about "minotaur tribal with doo". Does not make sense at all.

Vial is a mana acceleration card and good with creatures you can also cast, so you can play multiple creatures in turn 3+ or vial in creatures while you use your mana to do other stuff like wasting/porting/dazing so you get tempo advantage. If you pay 3 to use doo for creatures you can cast anyway you don't get any advantage at all. If you play a bunch a "legacy uncastable fatties" your deck does not work unless you have a doo in play, so probably a bad idea. So even for the very very very unlikely scenario that they print enough good minotaurs to build a tribal deck which competes with goblins and merfolk, vial would still be better. Doo is there to cheat a fatty in play. So if the print a broken minotaur people can start to play around with doo and show & tell.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

The way it works I think is if they print enough impactful creatures at 4-7, that way you can play it in a stompy shell with trinispheres and sol lands.

[Grollub]

They better make something like,

The Labyrinth
Legendary Land
When The Labyrinth comes into play exile target minotaur you control or sacrifice The Labyrinth.

2, Tap: Tap target creature, it then fights the minotaur exiled by The Labyrinth.


Greek mythology hell yeah! Gogo Minotaurus. Bad? Yeah probably, but awesome.

[Amon Amarth]

Paying 3 mana for a 3 mana minotaur seems fine because it gives it flash and makes it uncounterable. I think a Didgeridoo pushes you towards sol lands, moxen and other ramp because it gets you an active 'doo faster and without it you can still drop fat minotaurs into play. Of course this is assuming they print minotaurs that actually kick ass. Taurean Mauler is probably the only playable one.

[Norm]

Awesome Minotaur
8RR
Awesome Minotaur may block any number of creatures. When Awesome Minotaur blocks a creature, Awesome Minotaur deals 2 damage to that creature and that creature's controller.
4/9
"RRRAWR!!"

Art could be a giant minotaur swinging some incredibly scary poleaxe into a swarm of goblins.

Now that seems like a fun card to flash in with didgerawhateveridoo


Is it broken? Who cares!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No, it's not broken. In a world of Emmies and Grislies, this is a perfectly good card with funny design. :cool:

It costs fortune, has no relevant pro or eva, can be countered, does nothing to the opponent (unlike Emmy), can't win on it's own (unlike Emmy, Proggy and Grisly), can't touch creatures with pro:red or eva, needs lots of time to kill with attacks and is only powerfull the more crappy creatures stand against him. The only really scary abilities are the damage dealing ones, but then again, the first one just kils creatues, so it's a much worse WoG/Earthquake that can be pseudocountered by any removal possible. So this leaves us with his last ability, but without a way to flash him in a path of many angry creatures, this is mostly irrelevant, because 95 % of time (read: without Didgeridoo/Sneak Attack), the opponent may attack fearlessly. And even if it happens that the Minotaur gets cheated into play during their attack step, whatever? To do something broken, he needs the opponent to do something broken first - and if that guy managed to stick eight to twelve (fourteen, sixteen, you name the number) goblins/elves/worms/soldiers/whatever-the-dudes in play AND still didn't win until this hit the game, he shouldn't whine when the opponent makes similarly "broken" thing and cheats unto the beetlefield an absurdly big minotaur with absurdly big axe. And in fact the dude ain't broken at all - look, when you use him the way he has to be used, he just dies to two Craw Wurms. And that's the moral of the story - never fight a minotaur, just unleash your wurms to eat it.

You, my sir, should work for WotC, and I really like the card.

[Norm]

No, it's not broken. In a world of Emmies and Grislies, this is a perfectly good card with funny design. :cool:

It costs fortune, has no relevant pro or eva, can be countered, does nothing to the opponent (unlike Emmy), can't win on it's own (unlike Emmy, Proggy and Grisly), can't touch creatures with pro:red or eva, needs lots of time to kill with attacks and is only powerfull the more crappy creatures stand against him. The only really scary abilities are the damage dealing ones, but then again, the first one just kils creatues, so it's a much worse WoG/Earthquake that can be pseudocountered by any removal possible. So this leaves us with his last ability, but without a way to flash him in a path of many angry creatures, this is mostly irrelevant, because 95 % of time (read: without Didgeridoo/Sneak Attack), the opponent may attack fearlessly. And even if it happens that the Minotaur gets cheated into play during their attack step, whatever? To do something broken, he needs the opponent to do something broken first - and if that guy managed to stick eight to twelve (fourteen, sixteen, you name the number) goblins/elves/worms/soldiers/whatever-the-dudes in play AND still didn't win until this hit the game, he shouldn't whine when the opponent makes similarly "broken" thing and cheats unto the beetlefield an absurdly big minotaur with absurdly big axe. And in fact the dude ain't broken at all - look, when you use him the way he has to be used, he just dies to two Craw Wurms. And that's the moral of the story - never fight a minotaur, just unleash your wurms to eat it.

You, my sir, should work for WotC, and I really like the card.

Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts on that, I agree with them all and sincerely thank you for the kind words. Cheers!

P.S: The moral of that story cracked me up :)

[StefN]

http://i.imgur.com/9UDCjj8.jpg

Fake? Seems interesting :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts on that, I agree with them all and sincerely thank you for the kind words. Cheers!

P.S: The moral of that story cracked me up :)

I'm glad that you liked my analysis... :smile:

[Barook]

Currently it's considered fake until further prove. Why else should it be that blurry?

Rules question: If Elspeth gives herself protection, does she get

a) combat damage
b) redirected damage from burn spells?

I'm would say no in both cases, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

[ahg113]

I'm leery because the card number looks fudged. Given that it's blurry, the font size appears to be googly glop.

But as far as a passable planeswalker, it looks legit. It protects itself from creatures, 3 cmc, and an ultimate that's not nearly as beneficial as the other two abilities. Given it's Elspeth, protecting others and making tokens is in flavor with her character. Seems like a very good planeswalker for white.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

That's a really interesting design for a planeswalker, especially how she can use the positive loyalty ability to protect herself in a manner that's more creative than the typical "make tokens" method. It also seems like it might be competitive and doesn't have Amazing!

All good reasons to deem it fake.

[Barook]

If it's a fake, then at the very least, it's an interesting design. Certainly way better than "Useless Bitch on Fire 4.0".

The protection itself doesn't do much, unlike token generators or other protective abilities. Nice for evasion and some other shenanigans, but that's it.

The all-star of her is the Oblation ability. Sure, it can get rid of enemy must-kill threats, but at the cost of card advantage.

However, she can recycle herself if you draw extra copies of her or other legends (which seems pretty nice in a Legendary block). Hell, at worst, she reads:

:1::w::w:, sorcery: Draw two cards.

That's not too shabby and gets pretty good with token generators like Lingering Souls.

The ultimate looks like a nice finisher since only mass removal and Maze of Ith can really stop it.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I hate to add to speculation about a card that might not exist, but that is a fairly neat concept if it is real. Sorcery speed protection is dumb as shit though. I suppose there are situations where it will pass the "self protection" test, but ehhhhhhhh not as well as Elspeth the First.

Even without the new uniqueness rule, multiple Elspeths are a fairly decent mono-White method to draw cards via the -2 Oblation effect. For this reason alone I feel like questioning the validity of the card, because there will be times when it is literally a mono-White Divination. That's... really quite good for White. Add to it that it is a 3-cmc walker for 1WW with 4 loyalty... hmmm.

[from Cairo]

If it's legit the new Elspeth is very solid.

[Lord Seth]

I'm liable to think it's a fake because the collector's number doesn't look quite right. It might be the blur, but it looks like it's just "24" surrounded by asterisks, and there's no slash to be seen.

A shame though, the card seemed kinda cool.

[Gheizen64]

Seems too good to be real. It's easy to draw 4 over two turns with this cards, and even sacrificing a land make for a pretty insanely good trade.

The +1 also protect her from all form of damage and removal against monocolored decks. That's why too strong for a +1 ability. That's basically +1, elspeth can't be touched until next turn.

Also 4 starting loyalty? Dunno.

On the other hand, it's an interesting design because it can protect itself in a new way, can give evasion to your creatures and can oblate any permanent, an extremely versatile ability.

[Barook]

Seems too good to be real. It's easy to draw 4 over two turns with this cards, and even sacrificing a land make for a pretty insanely good trade.
If you do that, you'll gain +1 CA (lose 2 cards and Elspeth due to 0 Loyality). And you can't recycle lands, thus you need to recycle cards you've spent mana on. Consdiering this, it actually isn't that bonkers, but merely good.


The +1 also protect her from all form of damage and removal against monocolored decks. That's why too strong for a +1 ability. That's basically +1, elspeth can't be touched until next turn.
Instant removal can still wreck her. And an Elspeth which protects herself doesn't do anything to the board state for a while.

[rufus]

If you do that, you'll gain +1 CA (lose 2 cards and Elspeth due to 0 Loyality). And you can't recycle lands, thus you need to recycle cards you've spent mana on. Consdiering this, it actually isn't that bonkers, but merely good...

There's no 'if he or she does' clause, so you can do the Mangara of Corondor trick to get better CA with the ability, though I'm not sure how many good choices there are for that. (N.B. Do you still shuffle your library if the permanent is no longer there?)

[FTW]

Thefact the you can cheat them into play at instant speed, and they stick around permanently makes it much more like vial. And you obviously are only going to play it if you are running high cost dudes to cheat in. Think of it as an aether vial that doesn't need you to run a curve. Also getting dudes under a standstill is awesome

You have inspired me to post some lulz in the New and Developmental Deck section. Look for Minotaurs!

[Barook]

There's no 'if he or she does' clause, so you can do the Mangara of Corondor trick to get better CA with the ability, though I'm not sure how many good choices there are for that. (N.B. Do you still shuffle your library if the permanent is no longer there?)
It targets, so the entire ability would be countered if the target is gone.

[Infinitium]

You have inspired me to post some lulz in the New and Developmental Deck section. Look for Minotaurs!

Why are you reinventing the wheel when there's already Thunder Bluff? Sure it was somewhat stifled when Wizards had to emergency ban parts of the combo but what's left of it + the Minotaur advantage factor is still perfectly viable for the current metagame, especially should Theros print some utility beef to round out the sheer power of it (which is admittedly a longshot, especially as it would mean cutting existing cards).

EDIT: Also, even assuming that Elspeth is real it's not really playable - the first ability is essentially a bad form of evasion, the second is some super slow card advantage that costs you tempo and the last does too little too late. What decks want this? Aggressive decks can't afford to durdle and control decks can't afford to play cards with no immediate impact on the battlefield. I suppose there's some cute tricks to be had with SDT and it is another semi-decent answer to S&T Emrakul but still. Meh.

EDIT EDIT: Or wait Barook is correct in that the ability targets - no cute tricks to be had with SDT at all. Guessing there's no need to even test this in Miracles then.

[Lemnear]

Why are you reinventing the wheel when there's already Thunder Bluff? Sure it was somewhat stifled when Wizards had to emergency ban parts of the combo but what's left of it + the Minotaur advantage factor is still perfectly viable for the current metagame, especially should Theros print some utility beef to round out the sheer power of it (which is admittedly a longshot, especially as it would mean cutting existing cards).

EDIT: Also, even assuming that Elspeth is real it's not really playable - the first ability is essentially a bad form of evasion, the second is some super slow card advantage that costs you tempo and the last does too little too late. What decks want this? Aggressive decks can't afford to durdle and control decks can't afford to play cards with no immediate impact on the battlefield. I suppose there's some cute tricks to be had with SDT and it is another semi-decent answer to S&T Emrakul but still. Meh.

no, the first ability gives herself or any other perm the ultimate protection from removal and opposing creatures, the second ability is a removal for all kind of permaments including opponents Walkers for 2 cards (which xou van activate twice in a row) and the third is a neat kill-condition.

Fellas, this is the new Liliana of the Veil

[Kayradis]

I was watching Cedric Phillips play yesterday with White Weenies.
This is the card the deck needs.

Alright.

LETS START SPECULATIIIIIIIIING!

[Infinitium]

Sure, you can use Elspeth's first ability to protect itself if the opponent is currently ahead (unless he controls creatures of different colors, whelp). At which point I suppose you've just spent 3 mana on a Planeswalker that's doing nothing. Likewise, you can topdeck this in the lategame and drop it on an empty board in order to.. draw two cards? Or continually do nothing and put the opponent on a 7-turn clock. As for protecting other permanents, sure. Except that all currently played removal in legacy is either instant, targeting players or targeting the battlefield. Considering that, I suppose it's the ultimate protection from Firespout. For one creature.

Liliana of the Veil, like the rest of the playable PW's, is good because you can play it on pretty much any boardstate and immediatly come out ahead. Elspeth is either an incredibly slow card advantage engine or 3cc removal that refurbishes the opponent and then some. Not Liliana of the Veil. Not playable.

[Barook]

Since the wording is confirmed now, I guess it's time to discuss these cards:

Some Boros guy :1::w::r:
Legendary something
First strike, vigilance
Heroic - Whenever cardname is the target of a spell you control, creeatures you control get +1/+1, and gain trample until end of turn.
3/2

Decent fighter body, but its ability seems kinda meh.

Polukranos, World-Eater :2::g::g:
Legendary Creature - Hydra
X:g::g: Monstrosity X. (If this creature isn’t monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos.
5/5

Might be interesting for ramp decks, especially if you could give it deathtouch, but that might be too cute. Lack of protection and evasion sucks, though.

[apple713]

Since the wording is confirmed now, I guess it's time to discuss these cards:

Some Boros guy :1::w::r:
Legendary something
First strike, vigilance
Heroic - Whenever cardname is the target of a spell you control, creeatures you control get +1/+1, and gain trample until end of turn.
3/2

Decent fighter body, but its ability seems kinda meh.

Polukranos, World-Eater :2::g::g:
Legendary Creature - Hydra
X:g::g: Monstrosity X. (If this creature isn’t monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos.
5/5

Might be interesting for ramp decks, especially if you could give it deathtouch, but that might be too cute. Lack of protection and evasion sucks, though.

its 4 cmc for a 5/5... that sweeps the board.... really you need more.... greedy.

[Barook]

its 4 cmc for a 5/5... that sweeps the board.... really you need more.... greedy.
It can be supressed by Karakas, among other things.

And you still need lots of mana to sweep the board unless your opponent runs a bunch of X/1 dorks. At 4 mana, it needs to have a decent board impact. Otherwise, you could just play NO. It might be good, but at least for Legacy, I'm a bit sceptical.

[Richard Cheese]

God I hope the whole set is filled with absurd Greek names like that. Fingers crossed for Queen Doppelpopolous.

[Barook]

God I hope the whole set is filled with absurd Greek names like that. Fingers crossed for Queen Doppelpopolous.
I'm more interested how they're going to handle the theme, since they pretty much confirmed they're going with pop culture mythology this time. Especially considering the failure that was Kamigawa.

I expect the Sparta equivalent to be alot like 300.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm more interested how they're going to handle the theme, since they pretty much confirmed they're going with pop culture mythology this time. Especially considering the failure that was Kamigawa.

I expect the Sparta equivalent to be alot like 300.

It's not like going fully historical was an option anyway. I suspect the 2WW white sorcery "Buttfucking 12-year-old Boys" didn't test very well with their 12-year-old boys audience.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Flavor-wise I'm not a fan of Monstrosity/Monstrous. It just feels so clunky.

You play a creature, then you tap some more lands after to make it "Monstrous" which really just means slapping some +1/+1 counters on it, then you split damage equal to the number of +1/+1s across any number of creatures the opponents control, then you have them deal damage equal to all of their powers added together of the creatures that you damaged with the ability (not the same as normal keyword "fight"ing) back to your now "Monstrous" creature.

Just seems... obnoxious to deal with.

[Zinch]

Flavor-wise I'm not a fan of Monstrosity/Monstrous. It just feels so clunky.

You play a creature, then you tap some more lands after to make it "Monstrous" which really just means slapping some +1/+1 counters on it, then you split damage equal to the number of +1/+1s across any number of creatures the opponents control, then you have them deal damage equal to all of their powers added together of the creatures that you damaged with the ability (not the same as normal keyword "fight"ing) back to your now "Monstrous" creature.

Just seems... obnoxious to deal with.

With the "confirmed" wording this is only aplicable to this hydra. The "Montrosity" keyword only gives +1/+1 counters, the damage ability is not included in the keyword (wich I prefer, it would be a very limited ability)

[Stan]

It's not like going fully historical was an option anyway. I suspect the 2WW white sorcery "Buttfucking 12-year-old Boys" didn't test very well with their 12-year-old boys audience.

Not to mention that this card would be banned in Russia.

[Lemnear]

Another Expansion - Another Kicker-Variant For Creatures!

How creative... *facepalm*




I expect the full flavor of creature-growing + additional minor effect. Remind: This is an expansion under the hands of Tom LaPille :(

[Barook]

It's not like going fully historical was an option anyway. I suspect the 2WW white sorcery "Buttfucking 12-year-old Boys" didn't test very well with their 12-year-old boys audience.
They could be more subtle than this:

Call the Younglings XXX:u:
Sorcery
Tap X target Youngling creatures. If at least one of them is Human, take an extra turn after this one for each Youngling tapped this way.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

It's not like going fully historical was an option anyway. I suspect the 2WW white sorcery "Buttfucking 12-year-old Boys" didn't test very well with their 12-year-old boys audience.

Fun fact, most of the pederasts shied away from anal sex because of all of the health risks involved and instead got their nut on via intercrural sex (a.k.a "thigh-fucking"). Still disturbing and unfit for a children's card game, but at least the Greeks weren't all growing up prolapsed.

I've got to echo the disappointment with Yet-Another-(+1/+1)-Counters-Mechanic. And I remember not too long ago that Iwamori of the Open Fist was considered somewhat undercosted. Lol, creature power creep.

[ahg113]

God I hope the whole set is filled with absurd Greek names like that. Fingers crossed for Queen Doppelpopolous.

"Yes, I knew this day would come. So, you're finally here, heh? Nice try doppleganger. Save it for queen Dopplepopolis"

RIP Harry Goz* a Prince amongst men, a legacy cut short, a voice- so sweet, go win the Spice Wars

Adrienne Barbeau... beautiful inspiration

MTG related- reusing Battalion in consecutive blocks seems lazy.
The Hydra is cool in the sense that it's not reduced to sorcery speed, but corner case for Legacy playable. I actually don't mind the kicker cost because it's delayed, so functionally the same, plays very differently.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is that "Heroic" ability supposed to be the mechanical version of "Answering the Call"? Because I can't see how else it's evocative of classical Greek heroism.

Also, wow, two out of five of the mechanics in the next set are already boring: "When you target this with a spell, get another bonus (on top of what you were already getting by targeting this with a spell)!" and "Your creature gets bigger (once) and maybe does something else (once)!". Hoo boy, can't wait to get me some Theros packs!

My money's on this being the fourth bad set in a row.

[Lemnear]

I have to repeat: Tom LaPille is lead-designer. What do you expect?

[Barook]

I have to repeat: Tom LaPille is lead-designer. What do you expect?
I'm more interested to see how Born of the Gods plays out since it has Ken Nagle and Tom LaPille in charge. Probably one or two ridiculous, format-warping cards and then jank as usual.

[Lemnear]

I'm more interested to see how Born of the Gods plays out since it has Ken Nagle and Tom LaPille in charge. Probably one or two ridiculous, format-warping cards and then jank as usual.

Ups!

Ignore my post. Theros has MaRo as Lead and Born of the Gods was LaPille. My fault. Still nothing to cheer at imo

[Finn]

The Hydra is a monogreen spot removal OR mass removal card that can be fetched with Green Sun's Zenith. It is absurdly powerful. Elves will definitely adopt this card.

I can't think of any decent green removal since Desert Twister.

[Zombie]

The Hydra is a monogreen spot removal OR mass removal card that can be fetched with Green Sun's Zenith. It is absurdly powerful. Elves will definitely adopt this card.

I can't think of any decent green removal since Desert Twister.

Beast Within is pretty decent by my reckoning. As are Pulse and Decay.

[Lemnear]

The Hydra is a monogreen spot removal OR mass removal card that can be fetched with Green Sun's Zenith. It is absurdly powerful. Elves will definitely adopt this card.

I can't think of any decent green removal since Desert Twister.

I doubt that Elves want the Hydra, just because you can only use it a single time and by Taking the costs of it being a sweeper into consideration, you can just Hoof your opponent instead

[Zombie]

Plus it's still a minimum of 6 mana to kill anything. 6 mana kills PLAYERS.

[Barook]

The Hydra is a monogreen spot removal OR mass removal card that can be fetched with Green Sun's Zenith. It is absurdly powerful. Elves will definitely adopt this card.
Wouldn't Elves not rather win on the spot?

Let's assume the worst case scenario: It survives, you have 4 mana available next turn, pump for 2, deal 2 damage, sweep 1-2 creatures, swing with a 7/7 - not too shabby. Of course it can get silly if you have more mana available, but when does this happen in Legacy outside of Elves, Nic Fit and Maverick decks with Cradle in play? Monogreen Chalice Stompy might like it as well.

It gets bonus points for being immune to Bolt, unlike Master of the Wild Hunt.

[Finn]

OK. I am a bit surprised to see so many people question this, so now I wish to explore what we all are thinking. I will make my case:

First off, it is a green version of Pyrokinesis. To my knowledge, there has never been anything in the game like that. This alone is very significant. (As an anecdote, people on this very web forum talked smack about Imperial Recruiter because it was a "weak Goblin Matron" and similar foolish statements when it was a $15 card and just made legal in Legacy. Well, Eladamri's Call was a card back then. Lesson: If it is the only card in a color that does some function, it deserves serious consideration, even if there is not a deck in which it fits at that time. I hope nobody debates this.

Secondly, there are actually nonblue decks out there. They seek to fight Elves toe-to-toe. Spot removal, Phyrexian Revoker, Ethersworn Canonist, Grim Lavamancer, etc. are all cards that Elves has to contend with. A stalled board state for Elves often looks like Visionaries and Nettle Sentinels with a sprinkling of more pertinent creatures that are not quite useful because the opponent has them pinned down in some fashion. I got the Craterhoof deal - it is of course an important point, but when Elves is chumping my Batterskull a lot of times, they are just buying time to get something like this. This happens almost routinely when I have D+T or Esper Blade because they get rid of the Jitte somehow - usually Abrupt Decay. I do not know if it is similarly common against other Mystic builds. But the result is that I have a lot of life and they just can't kill me in one shot. Then there are issues with lack of sufficient mana. As it happens, this guy can kill an x/1 for one less mana than fetching a Craterhoof. I may be reaching on this part.

Are Elves players used to simply killing outright on the turn the Behemoth comes out? Does this happen often enough that a backup plan of this sort is unnecessary?

Third, it is a single spell because they are fetching it. It requires little investment in terms of design space, especially in a sideboard.

Did I mention that it is a green card? 6 mana kills players, yes. But not in green.

Abrupt Decay requires black mana. That defeats the purpose. I don't know what "Pulse" is, but I bet it requires nongreen mana. Beast Within has a significant downside, etc.

[from Cairo]

I'm not sure that Legacy has a deck that wants the Hydra.

When Elves get up to the mana range that they can be doing something broken with Polukranos, they are probably able to do something more broken with Craterhoof Behemoth.

I feel like it could potentially see consideration in one of the Nic Fit variants. To me it seems like an upgrade over Master of the Wild Hunt, which has seen little-no play in successful lists. Huntmaster of the Fells and Ifh-Biff Efreet are other 4cc that come to mind, but likely get the nod given the option of going after Planeswalkers.

[Squirrel]

It's not like going fully historical was an option anyway. I suspect the 2WW white sorcery "Buttfucking 12-year-old Boys" didn't test very well with their 12-year-old boys audience.

To be fair, the age recommendation is 13+, the don't need to test outside of their target group.

[TsumiBand]

OK. I am a bit surprised to see so many people question this, so now I wish to explore what we all are thinking. I will make my case:

First off, it is a green version of Pyrokinesis. To my knowledge, there has never been anything in the game like that. This alone is very significant. (As an anecdote, people on this very web forum talked smack about Imperial Recruiter because it was a "weak Goblin Matron" and similar foolish statements when it was a $15 card and just made legal in Legacy. Well, Eladamri's Call was a card back then. Lesson: If it is the only card in a color that does some function, it deserves serious consideration, even if there is not a deck in which it fits at that time. I hope nobody debates this.

Secondly, there are actually nonblue decks out there. They seek to fight Elves toe-to-toe. Spot removal, Phyrexian Revoker, Ethersworn Canonist, Grim Lavamancer, etc. are all cards that Elves has to contend with. A stalled board state for Elves often looks like Visionaries and Nettle Sentinels with a sprinkling of more pertinent creatures that are not quite useful because the opponent has them pinned down in some fashion. I got the Craterhoof deal - it is of course an important point, but when Elves is chumping my Batterskull a lot of times, they are just buying time to get something like this. This happens almost routinely when I have D+T or Esper Blade because they get rid of the Jitte somehow - usually Abrupt Decay. I do not know if it is similarly common against other Mystic builds. But the result is that I have a lot of life and they just can't kill me in one shot. Then there are issues with lack of sufficient mana. As it happens, this guy can kill an x/1 for one less mana than fetching a Craterhoof. I may be reaching on this part.

Are Elves players used to simply killing outright on the turn the Behemoth comes out? Does this happen often enough that a backup plan of this sort is unnecessary?

Third, it is a single spell because they are fetching it. It requires little investment in terms of design space, especially in a sideboard.

Did I mention that it is a green card? 6 mana kills players, yes. But not in green.

Abrupt Decay requires black mana. That defeats the purpose. I don't know what "Pulse" is, but I bet it requires nongreen mana. Beast Within has a significant downside, etc.

Probably referring to Maelstrom Pulse. And it totes requires Black.

Here's the thing that's derpy about Hydra guy, is that over the last couple of blocks Green has been getting good-enough removal vis-a-vis Fight. Which basically says "As long as your deck is spitting out giant Green things, destroy target creature" because Green creatures are huge and insane. And while Elves definitely can create bonkers amounts of mana, there are going to be times when that :x::x::g: activation cost kick Pulkranasomething right in the pills. 5 damage for 11 mana is bad, I don't think it really matters how it is divided, or how it is less cards than "fatty + Fight card".

Honestly - look at Pit Fight. As long as you control, like, I dunno, Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf or any huge creature really, it's a Green Murder. And who is playing it? Anyone? If players won't spend 1G for destroy target creature, I dunno that they'll pay 16G for 8 damage.

[Barook]

First off, it is a green version of Pyrokinesis.
How often is Pyrokinesis hardcast? To pull of a 4 damage Pyrokinesis effect, you have to invest :2::g::g: + :4::g::g: first.

Nobody argues that the effect is sexy if you have enough mana, but reaching that point in Legacy is the problem. Because more often than not, you're either dead before or you could do more broken things.

Edit:

Honestly - look at Pit Fight. As long as you control, like, I dunno, Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf or any huge creature really, it's a Green Murder. And who is playing it? Anyone? If players won't spend 1G for destroy target creature, I dunno that they'll pay 16G for 8 damage.
To be fair, it isn't only removal, it also gets fatter. If you curve into it, then it's going to deal 3 damage on the next turn, killing 2-3 opposing dudes and then you can swing with an 8/8 beater.

[TsumiBand]

How often is Pyrokinesis hardcast? To pull of a 4 damage Pyrokinesis effect, you have to invest :2::g::g: + :4::g::g: first.

Nobody argues that the effect is sexy if you have enough mana, but reaching that point in Legacy is the problem. Because more often than not, you're either dead before or you could do more broken things.

Edit:

To be fair, it isn't only removal, it also gets fatter. If you curve into it, then it's going to deal 3 damage on the next turn, killing 2-3 opposing dudes and then you can swing with an 8/8 beater.

I get that it makes it huge, but I'm not convinced that it isn't as good as just casting a Fight spell. Even if it has the potential to be divvied up amongst a bunch of dudes with little-to-no toughness. Seems so bad though. It is a super-expensive one-shot, and not only that but the Hydra *is* more or less Fighting each creature - they deal damage right back to it. So not only is it a really expensive effect, but you'll be impelled either to not use it OR try and use it when you're guaranteed to keep your guy, and it isn't like everyone else isn't playing undercosted fat these days. I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something.

If it had said "damage equal to its power" instead of "damage equal to X" then it might be quite strong. But instead it is 'only' X. So the turn after you cast it, if you get your land drop you can throw 4G at the ability, so like... cool, two counters and two damage. I'd way rather Pit Fight something.

[HPB_Eggo]

Looked at hydra, thought it was awesome. Reread hydra, realized it targets - rather than just hitting all opponent's creatures - and divides the damage between targets. Realized it was kind of 'meh'.

Elves will never run this simply because there isn't any reason to do so. There are zero board states where it would be the best possible thing to grab, and it isn't useful in enough general board states to be a general MD option.

Think of it like this...

1) If Elves could win with a big guy, they'll get Craterhoof. There isn't anything that will win harder, with the potential exception of Ruric Thar in some odd side cases.

2) If Elves needs to remove a non-creature permanent, the hydra just doesn't matter.

3) If your in a position where you're staring down, say, a ton of tokens and actually need a sweeper it just isn't going to cut it.

Adding all of those together you get a somewhat big guy who can remove a few small creatures but has no evasion, no haste, and no protection. It's like Terastadon - not terrible, but at most it will be a one-of in the SB of some Elves decks expecting a lot of specific board states. Nothing more.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'm pretty sure it's not playable. That said, I still like it a lot. :smile:

[Infinitium]

It's still a very good 5-mana investment off GSZ versus other tribal decks and good enough versus RUG (shoots down Delver, blocks their fat, isn't a potential 2-for-1 etc). The way I see it it's essentially a better Masticore, albeit with Peacekeeper not seeing play and Abrupt Decay being readily available that may not be very relevant at the moment. Still, as Finn noted having an effect unique to a color is not to be underestimated. Especially when that utility comes attached to relatively undercosted fat and is easily tutored to boot.

[Barook]

And we're back to XX:g: cost which pretty much kills it for potential Legacy use.

[HPB_Eggo]

And we're back to XX:g: cost which pretty much kills it for potential Legacy use.

Agreed.

I will say it's a super interesting/flavorful idea, but this specific card is not one that will see much - if any - play in Legacy.

I'm waiting for the 1/1 Minotaur for R with Monstrous X - When *this* becomes monstrous, deal X damage to target creature. THAT would be playable. Maybe even on the potentially-too-strong side of playable.

[TsumiBand]

Ugh, hopefully Monstrous is more robust than just damaging all the things.

In fact both the spoiled mechanics thus far are hopefully more well-rounded than what's been seen so far. The RW guy is interesting kind of, but only in formats where you actually want to cast spells on your own dudes. Green guy is not that good even if you have a ton of mana to throw around. Your opponent controls two Delvers and a Snapcaster; you really just paid 2GG + 11G to take out their threats and swing for 10? With what, all those Elves? The elves that could have won you the game if you used that fuck-yall-bitches mana for Craterhoof Behemoth? Puuuuuke.

[Darkenslight]

Ugh, hopefully Monstrous is more robust than just damaging all the things.

In fact both the spoiled mechanics thus far are hopefully more well-rounded than what's been seen so far. The RW guy is interesting kind of, but only in formats where you actually want to cast spells on your own dudes. Green guy is not that good even if you have a ton of mana to throw around. Your opponent controls two Delvers and a Snapcaster; you really just paid 2GG + 11G to take out their threats and swing for 10? With what, all those Elves? The elves that could have won you the game if you used that fuck-yall-bitches mana for Craterhoof Behemoth? Puuuuuke.

Actually, the Boros-colored dude could see play in a weird midrange "Burning Pants"-type deck.

[MGB]

The bottom line is this: Theros and the subsequent sets following it will contain new Minotaurs. Didgeridoo - from a basic, fundamental standpoint - has a very powerful ability. Aether Vial is the obvious correlation, but don't forget - there's a stark difference between the two besides the obvious restriction to Minotaurs. This of course is mana investment versus turn progression. In order for Vial to be truly effective, you need to be able to have a few turns in order for it to really get going.

Didgeridoo, on the other hand, immediately enables you to cheat your creatures into play for three colorless mana a piece. In a deck utilizing Ancient Tombs and or City of Traitors, it's not unreasonable to assume you'll be able to drop a turn-two guy with some serious firepower. Didgeridoo is also a far better top-deck than its counterpart at most points in the game, which is obviously a plus.

The only thing we're waiting for is the spoiler. Once that happens and some sort of mammoth Minotaur(s) sees print, Didgeridoo could become a legitimately powerful turn-one play - and that much stronger actually on the play.


This is a really great point - all it takes is some newly spoiled bombs to turn otherwise "casual" cards from old sets into tournament staples.

Look at Show and Tell and Sneak Attack for an earlier example. Also, Dark Depths.

Didgeridoo has always been an intriguing card but lacked real playibility because most of the Minotaur cards in the game are very lackluster.

[Rush80]

Theros spoiler starting with a burst.
E.g. first Theros card which is an upgrade (for aggro deck for sure) of a Vintage-Legacy staple: Disenchant.

Destructive Revelrly; {RG}
Instant.
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Destructive Revelrly does 2 damage to that permanent's controller.

[Gheizen64]

Theros spoiler starting with a burst.
E.g. first Theros card which is an upgrade (for aggro deck for sure) of a Vintage-Legacy staple: Disenchant.

Destructive Revelrly; {RG}
Instant.
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Destructive Revelrly does 2 damage to that permanent's controller.

Smash to smithereens that hit enchantments too. Not sure how much it is relevant because no one play enchantments (well, Omniscience, but omniscience win the moment it enters play), but i like the card. The 1G satir that sacrifice for RRR is also a cute card, and the 1WR legend isn't even that bad (first strike and vigilance make for some bretty good combat critter), since it's a 3/2.

The enchant creature is also pretty decent (for the level of enchant creatures we've got), but 3 turns is way too long, unless you slap him on some hexproof creature or smth i guess.

All revealed cards have positively surprised me from a design standpoint (the pegasus too, it's a common but it isn't stupidly underpowered).

[TsumiBand]

Theros spoiler starting with a burst.
E.g. first Theros card which is an upgrade (for aggro deck for sure) of a Vintage-Legacy staple: Disenchant.

Destructive Revelrly; {RG}
Instant.
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Destructive Revelrly does 2 damage to that permanent's controller.

I might still rather have Hull Breach, but this is damn cool.


Actually, the Boros-colored dude could see play in a weird midrange "Burning Pants"-type deck.

Eh maybe, I think it's still Blouses or GTFO if you need to play Auras. Totem armor is a neat mechanic though, maybe there's something there.

[Barook]

Destructive Revelrly is pretty cool. As far as enchantments are concerned - Counterbalance is still a thing (although you have to be lucky to destroy it) - and the typical random crap like Moat, Humility, etc.

The Satyr is an interesting design, although its place in Legacy is questionable. At worst, he's a filter for red mana. Spending 1.5 turns for on mana acceration alone doesn't seem too hot, though. He's probably best buddies with Burning-Tree Emissary. Time for RG Manadude Vial Aggro! :laugh:

Anax and Cymede has a nice fighter body, but that's it. Unless a creature has hexproof, you don't really want to cast spells on your dudes in Legacy due to the efficiency of removal in the format.

The overall quality of the spoiled cards so far seems pretty good. After the 1-2-3 strike that was GTC - DGM - M14, that's also necessary.

[Lemnear]

Theros spoiler starting with a burst.
E.g. first Theros card which is an upgrade (for aggro deck for sure) of a Vintage-Legacy staple: Disenchant.

Destructive Revelrly; {RG}
Instant.
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Destructive Revelrly does 2 damage to that permanent's controller.

I what parallel-universe is Disenchant a Vintage or Legacy staple? If you have to fight sphere's you run Natures Claim or gamble on resolving Trygon Predator in Vintage and in Legacy you have Qasali Pridemage is you are looking for a 2cc-catch-all. Hull Breach is at least a sorcery which you can run in a Wish-Board.

That card is complete wayne.

[Rush80]

I what parallel-universe is Disenchant a Vintage or Legacy staple? If you have to fight sphere's you run Natures Claim or gamble on resolving Trygon Predator in Vintage and in Legacy you have Qasali Pridemage is you are looking for a 2cc-catch-all. Hull Breach is at least a sorcery which you can run in a Wish-Board.

That card is complete wayne.

Yes, Nature's claim is the most played.
Currently, aggro decks like White Weenie, Bomberman, Blade control etc. use to sideboard disenchant (or wear/tear).

[rufus]

...
The Satyr is an interesting design, although its place in Legacy is questionable. At worst, he's a filter for red mana. Spending 1.5 turns for on mana acceration alone doesn't seem too hot, though. He's probably best buddies with Burning-Tree Emissary. Time for RG Manadude Vial Aggro! ...

Trading 3 mana + 1 card for 3 mana seems pretty weak as mana washing effects go, and the body isn't up to snuff for legacy. IMO he'd be marginal if the CC were :g: instead.

[ESG]

Destructive Revelry is actually huge for Burn. It handles pretty much all the most troublesome permanents and still deals damage. Unfortunately, Burn has been poorly positioned IMO since the printing of Griselbrand. If I was in a meta with fewer combo decks, I'd run Burn with this card.

[FTW]

1) If Elves could win with a big guy, they'll get Craterhoof. There isn't anything that will win harder, with the potential exception of Ruric Thar in some odd side cases.

2) If Elves needs to remove a non-creature permanent, the hydra just doesn't matter.

3) If your in a position where you're staring down, say, a ton of tokens and actually need a sweeper it just isn't going to cut it.

Adding all of those together you get a somewhat big guy who can remove a few small creatures but has no evasion, no haste, and no protection. It's like Terastadon - not terrible, but at most it will be a one-of in the SB of some Elves decks expecting a lot of specific board states. Nothing more.

Yeah, basically, if you're staring down Ethersworn Canonist + Phyrexian Revoker on Symbiote (no digging) but very little clock, then this makes a sexy GSZ target. Get him out now, next turn blow up the fish dorks and swing for a bunch. Ouch. But I don't see why else you would get him. You actually need to be seeing 2 or more hatebears locking you out for it to be worth spending 10-ish mana to kill stuff.

Does anyone remember playing casual/multiplayer way back in the mid 90s when they printed Meteor Shower and Rolling Thunder? Rolling Thunder is actually a decent X burn spell in a ramp strategy, much better than Fireball and less symmetrical than Earthquake, more efficient than Comet Storm at killing a few small things, and may find its way into various EDH decks. But Meteor Shower just always sucked. The problem is paying XXR/XXG is a LOT worse than paying XRR/XGG.

[Barook]

At the very least, the art (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/261c) looks pretty amazing.

It also looks like there are going to be 5 new legendary equipments.

[davelin]

At the very least, the art (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/261c) looks pretty amazing.

It also looks like there are going to be 5 new legendary equipments.

It also sounds like the gods of Nyx will be represented as enchantments cards.

[(nameless one)]

Nylea, God of the Hunt

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/feat261a_15_gtt6ub4dxg.jpg


Some city dwellers will come into the forest to honor her, especially to pray that the seasons will change in a timely manner. Nylea hates sacrifices and is notoriously hard to please.

Depending on their offerings, worshippers could as easily anger her as win her blessing.

Women... Am I not right?

[Barook]

It also sounds like the gods of Nyx will be represented as enchantments cards.
They're definitely creatures, since they have a P/T box.

Considering they're called living enchantments in the article, they're probably enchantment creatures or something similiar.

[Amon Amarth]

They're definitely creatures, since they have a P/T box.

Considering they're called living enchantments in the article, they're probably enchantment creatures or something similiar.

That seems the most likely, they've already done it in Future Sight so I wouldn't be surprised to see it used here to good effect.

[mrjumbo03]

It also looks like there are going to be 5 new legendary equipments.

Looks like they won't be equipments.

Bident of Thassa (http://i.imgur.com/3KLlV13.jpg)
2uu
Legendary Enchantment Artifact Rare
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
2{U}, {T}: Creatures your opponents control attack this turn if able.

From MTGS, it says it's the release foil.

[Aggro_zombies]

"Enchantment Artifact"? Are you fucking kidding me? Enchantments and artifacts are already extremely similar card types if you set aside the flavor; historically, the only real difference between them was that artifacts were solely colorless and that enchantments could use color-specific abilities while artifacts were often generic. They punted the first of those out the window in Shards because they apparently couldn't be bothered to come up with something interesting for Esper, and now they're just flat-out admitting that there aren't really any lines between the two types anymore, even flavor-wise. Man, I am going to love this set.

EDIT: as for the actual card itself, it's thoroughly mediocre. A legendary Coastal Piracy is fine, I guess, and the force to attack thing is cute, but the card is pretty boring.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Shitty design.

Not only is Enchantment Artifact completely stupid, but the "Siren" ability has been colorshifted to Red. Oh wait, that card has Amazing! so the color pie doesn't matter. My mistake.

[Mewens]

On the plus side: Enchantress will get hate bears now, too.

Shroudy hate bears.

[Barook]

so the color pie doesn't matter. My mistake.
The color pie does matter - unless it's blue.

The artifact part is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose. I've also misread it as being an equipment with no equipment cost first, hence being fetchable with SFM.

But as a plain artifact? This just sucks. I can imagine the R&D conversation:


"I've designed this pretty sweet, red removal spell which can also hit enchantments since the block has an enchantment theme!"
Maro: "But red can't have enchantment removal. It isn't part of the color pie!"
"Then how about enchantment artifacts? Red can blow up artifacts!"
"Brilliant!"

Oh boy, at the current pace, I sure can't wait for Aura equipments. :rolleyes:

[Higgs]

Isn't Maro the lead designer on this set? If so I'm not surprised at the the enchantment-artifact bs. They don't bother with creativity anymore, they just pick up something "cool", that is marketable, easy to consume, wrap it up in shiny clothes and throw it out there. "This is Magic's version of greek mythology, how awesome is that ha??" I watched the comic con panel for Theros and thought Maro was the most insincere public speaker I've ever seen in my life. Listening to him what I really heard was "This is cool and awesome alright, just swallow whatever shit I'm shoving down your throat you nerds. Also stop asking questions because it annoys me. We know what's best for you."

I think they are completely uninterested in the gaming and creativity aspect of Magic, completely impatient and closed to criticism and just want to mass produce content to be consumed by the crowds. At one point they said something along the lines of "we've looked at all the greek mythology, popular culture references, movies, games and adopted some of the ideas". Which goes to show that they don't want to be creative and just want to steal ideas, dress them in new clothes and spew out a mash of cool things platter.

[Nihil Credo]

I think they are completely uninterested in the gaming and creativity aspect of Magic, completely impatient and closed to criticism and just want to mass produce content to be consumed by the crowds. At one point they said something along the lines of "we've looked at all the greek mythology, popular culture references, movies, games and adopted some of the ideas". Which goes to show that they don't want to be creative and just want to steal ideas, dress them in new clothes and spew out a mash of cool things platter.MaRo's explanation for this is that when they made Kamigawa, they put in a ton of cool authentic Japanese folklore, all those bizarre spirits and concepts, and so forth. And what did Magic players actually like in the block? Ninjas first and foremost, with samurais a distant second. A.K.A. the most boring and "recognisable" parts.

So we got Innistrad which had some nice art touches but stuck 100% to recycling horror tropes, and now Theros which looks like it will stick to the parts of Greek mythology than a ten-year-old could recognise. Pity. We could use more sets like New Phyrexia or Shadowmoor.

[(nameless one)]

What I don't get is why do they keep selling to the 10 year old crowd. The pack itself says it's for age 13+

[Kayradis]

We could use more sets like New Phyrexia or Shadowmoor.


Well.....I really miss the phyrexian. They took over Mirrodin, but since when do they just wanna stop? I'm starting to miss the 12-Blocks-Long storylines and concepts. I'd almost be happy with a return to the Urza sets.

[Kage]

So what's next?

Santa's Workshop

Legendary Snow Elf Enchantment Artifact - Equipment?

[Kayradis]

So what's next?

Santa's Workshop

Legendary Snow Elf Enchantment Artifact - Equipment?

Santa's Workshop :4:

Legendary Snow Elf Enchantment Artifact - Equipment

Morph :3:

When Santa's Workshop is turned face up, search your library for an equipment card and put it into play equipped to target creature an opponent control. Turn Santa's Workshop face down. You can only use this ability once a year.

2/2

[HammafistRoob]

That shitty card is at least playable in some EDH builds. But wtf? They should've made it a 1/1 as well so it dies to even more. There will never be a Legacy playable Artifact Enchantment. *crosses fingers*

[Barook]

There will never be a Legacy playable Artifact Enchantment. *crosses fingers*
The same was said about flip cards - then Delver happened and we know how it went.


MaRo's explanation for this is that when they made Kamigawa, they put in a ton of cool authentic Japanese folklore, all those bizarre spirits and concepts, and so forth. And what did Magic players actually like in the block? Ninjas first and foremost, with samurais a distant second. A.K.A. the most boring and "recognisable" parts.
The block had far more problems than that. It was the block with the most "cannibalistic" mechanics (as MaRo puts it - which means they only play well with the block, but not with other magic cards) which were also uninteresting.

Flip a flyer into a ninja? Awesome! Soulshifting an overcosted, janky spirit into a smaller, equally shitty spirit? Significantly less awesome.

The powerlevel was also horrendously low due to balancing out Mirrodin, resulting in unplayable jank across the board - in contrast, we had SDT and Jitte (which plagued Standard to the point where it was almost banned). And to be honest, power level is a huge factor how people receive a set. Modern Masters is not only a fun format to draft, but also delivered high value with each pack.

[Lemnear]

That shitty card is at least playable in some EDH builds. But wtf? They should've made it a 1/1 as well so it dies to even more. There will never be a Legacy playable Artifact Enchantment. *crosses fingers*

Like a black equivalent for 2BB which kills creatures and reanimates those?

[nedleeds]

A multicolor Minotaur lord

Here's hoping the minotaur lord pitches to force.

[spg]

Here's hoping the minotaur lord pitches to force.

Here's the full list of Maro's hints today about Theros. No full spoilers, but some stuff that might be fun to think about:


Here are some things you can expect from Theros:

A 3/3 with three abilities that uses fate counters
Multiple cards with the word "nongorgon"
A high-profile cycle of legendary permanents that are not creatures or lands
A rare card with five words of rules text in which one of the words is "planeswalker"
An artifact creature that appears to be a big horse made out of wood
A 5/5 giant snake that can be cast for GG
A multicolor Minotaur lord
A card that could have been in Modern Masters
A giant that brings fire to humans
A creature with a saboteur ability (it has an effect if the creature deals combat damage to an opponent) which is one of the Power Nine


Here are a few names of cards you will see:

Anger of the Gods
Chained to the Rocks
Lost in a Labyrinth
Rescue from the Underworld
Underworld Cereberus
Witch's Eye



Finally, here are some of the creatures you're going to see (note that not all of these are creature types and is only a partial list):

Catoblepas
Chimera
Cyclops
Harpy
Hippocamp
Hundred-Handed One
Kraken
Nymph (Alseid, Dryad, Lampad, Naiad, and Oread)
Pegasus
Satyr
Siren
Triton

[Esper3k]

Hundred-Handed One


Awesome nod to Greek mythology.

[guelahpapyrus]

Note, that the card that "could have been in Modern Masters," when asked if it was black, MaRo replied with, "Maybe :)"

[TorpidNinja]

Note, that the card that "could have been in Modern Masters," when asked if it was black, MaRo replied with, "Maybe :)"

If it is Thoughtseize I'd put good odds of it coming back as mythic.

[Kayradis]

Let the speculations begin!

[spg]

If it is Thoughtseize I'd put good odds of it coming back as mythic.

Thoughtseize and Damnation are the only two that really jump to mind...

Edit: that people would actually care about. Maybe it's Chimney Imp.

[clavio]

Weren't there thousands of cards that were eligible for Modern Masters??

[TheArchitect]

Thoughtseize and Damnation are the only two that really jump to mind...

Its got to be thoughtseize. WoTC wont be printing any more "... Destroy... Can't be regenerated" cards.


Also, I've suspected it for a while, but I am calling it now. The reworked/reworded mechanic, is the mechanic for the gods and is World Enchantments. Gods will act as world enchantments. Im thinking the P/T box on the previewed god card frame was either to throw us off or is some other kind of number similar to loyalty counters.

[nedleeds]

Making world enchantments flies in the face of his goal of making enchantments not shit.

[Lemnear]

Making world enchantments flies in the face of his goal of making enchantments not shit.

I doubt making "enchantment artifacts" is any better, pal.

The topic about Enchantments vs. Artifacts is ages old. It would have been better if WotC had ever made a clear mechanical difference between them like:

Enchantment: color-identity effects and
abilities

Artifacts: global/State-based effects and activated abilities (tap and/or mana and/or sacrifice permaments)

[nedleeds]

They did have fundamental differences. You could tap artifacts and turn then off ... like the mechanical things they are. Forever you couldn't tap enchantments ... but as the game has been dumbed down for beards, casuals and mouth breathers we've lost much of the original flavor of RG PHDs game.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I too, am disappointed in the blurring of card types. Land-Creatures were okay, I guess, as dryads are like tree people.

Instant creatures? I suppose... some things are "fast" but don't have haste Quick Sliver?

Artifacts with colors? Not really a fan, as any color should be able to make machines (Red has mountain/rocks to build them with, White have large swaths of land to find mineral components, Green have a type of creation magic, Black have swamps and stuff like peat which I assume can get mining stuff from, Blue have their own type of mind-magic to infuse inanimate objects to life). But okay, I can kind of see that happening.

Enchantment creatures? Why not just have the ability of something like Hidden Gibbons. That idea was working for a while, and kept the flavor a little better.


My question now is why do we even have different types? Just for the kill spells?

[Barook]

Thoughtseize would fit the bill and even if a good chunk of the set sucks, they would have an instant chase card.

Although it's kinda odd for Standard to have 2 quality discard spells (Thoughtseize and Duress) in the format.

[Gheizen64]

I too, am disappointed in the blurring of card types. Land-Creatures were okay, I guess, as dryads are like tree people.

Instant creatures? I suppose... some things are "fast" but don't have haste Quick Sliver?

Artifacts with colors? Not really a fan, as any color should be able to make machines (Red has mountain/rocks to build them with, White have large swaths of land to find mineral components, Green have a type of creation magic, Black have swamps and stuff like peat which I assume can get mining stuff from, Blue have their own type of mind-magic to infuse inanimate objects to life). But okay, I can kind of see that happening.

Enchantment creatures? Why not just have the ability of something like Hidden Gibbons. That idea was working for a while, and kept the flavor a little better.


My question now is why do we even have different types? Just for the kill spells?

I agree totally. Also, artifacts should really have worked only as untapped if continous, or once tapped, if mono. Richard did get the flavor right back then, mechanical things don't work when they're turned off, then we got monkeys. And monkeys with directive jobs at that, sadly.
I mean if someone asked me today why we still got artifact and enchantments as different types, i'd probably answer "why we still got monkeys?".

[Barook]

I agree totally. Also, artifacts should really have worked only as untapped if continous, or once tapped, if mono. Richard did get the flavor right back then, mechanical things don't work when they're turned off, then we got monkeys. And monkeys with directive jobs at that, sadly.
I mean if someone asked me today why we still got artifact and enchantments as different types, i'd probably answer "why we still got monkeys?".
It makes the distribution of hate kinda ridiculous. Black can destroy neither (unless we dig deep for some kind of old, funky artifact removal like Gate to Phyrexia) and Maro throws a childish fit when red gets enchantment removal while enchantments and artifacts are kinda the same now.

Flavor and "intangible things" my ass when Freyalise sets up a nuke to blow everything up aka Pernicious Deed.

[rufus]

Making [shit] flies in the face of his goal of making [not shit].

Fixed that for you.

[TsumiBand]

It makes the distribution of hate kinda ridiculous. Black can destroy neither (unless we dig deep for some kind of old, funky artifact removal like Gate to Phyrexia) and Maro throws a childish fit when red gets enchantment removal while enchantments and artifacts are kinda the same now.

So, this isn't the first time this has happened though, right? And it isn't always terrible in the long run - but it does make Standard really weird.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205275&type=card

IIRC there was a Mono-Green-Control deck that made the rounds for a time, before Tooth and Nail was like "to hell with this format, I am a thing now". And then they made sure that Red wasn't getting Shatterstorm type stuff.

The thing of it is though, generally these Standard season oddities don't tend to have a gigantic impact on Eternal - just talking about the mixing of card types here. I mean it's weird that they exist at all, so it's this weird chapter in Magic history that you can't make go away, but other than that it just clashes enough with the rest of the game that it doesn't matter. It's generally because it doesn't happen very often, or the decks are all so dependent on synergy that strictly comes from the block they're in, that they never really evolve beyond being Standard decks.

Sometimes when these are mechanic-based it works out fine -- Bant Exalted + free counterspells and duals is kind of an okay deck. But just, like... putting a colored mana cost on artifacts, or making a handful of burn spells colorless, doesn't change the fact that most of the good artifacts are still entirely colorless and one or two anti-protection burn spells don't really affect the long-term status of the game.


Flavor and "intangible things" my ass when Freyalise sets up a nuke to blow everything up aka Pernicious Deed.

Ah yeah, that was kind of a mistake. Although consider the corollary; a 'destroy all nonland' Pernicious Deed would be tear-assing around every Planeswalker printed since ever, and then the problem would be the same in reverse.

[Gheizen64]

Artifact lands however are so much more logical than enchantment whatever. I mean, it's basically a mox that use a landdrop. Both card types are also much more similar since they have effect on tap and shit. Lands also have transformed into creature and artifacts since antiquities, so i think it's a much more logical "next" step. But enchantments already had an identity crisis, often underrepresented, with only basically the "not tapping" since colored artifact (that i don't like, but i can digest much more easily that enchantments that tap). Only things that remain is colorless enchantments, and i guess they'll come next time we visit the eldrazi.

[nedleeds]

I agree totally. Also, artifacts should really have worked only as untapped if continous, or once tapped, if mono. Richard did get the flavor right back then, mechanical things don't work when they're turned off, then we got monkeys. And monkeys with directive jobs at that, sadly.
I mean if someone asked me today why we still got artifact and enchantments as different types, i'd probably answer "why we still got monkeys?".

He looks even more confused in his article as he babble about how artifacts are so much better than enchantments but his lackeys are the ones who powered up artifacts by defiling the games progenitors intent.

Now we are stuck with a bunch of old continuous artifacts that are kicked in the nuts (see: Winter Orb) or stuff that's pretty insane because tapping doesn't turn off your stuff (see: Tangle Wire in Vintage w/ Sphere of Resistance). Even better we get stupid text on cards like Trinisphere (As long as ~ is untapped). Other interesting cards are just crappy (Relic Barrier, Kill Switch).

In the end the game is no better for the changes. Any reduction in complexity was complete and utter horseshit -- these seem shills introduced Flip Cards, Double Faced Abortion Cards, Planeswalkers, Infect, Storm etc..

Edit: Even though this exists ...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/med/173.jpg

[Vacrix]

The art style represents a return to Classical Antiquity. I dig.

[Dark Ritual]

Its got to be thoughtseize. WoTC wont be printing any more "... Destroy... Can't be regenerated" cards.

Putrefy disagrees with you. Just reprinted in dragon's maze and look it says it on the card too. Mutilate, merciless eviction...both pretty much say can't be regenerated as well. Would not be surprised to see a damnation reprint in a god themed set.

Hoping thoughtseize is in so it isn't 60 anymore. Then again it could be MaRo trolling us by putting in plague beetle.

Chained to the rocks is probably a reference to Prometheus being chained to rocks and having his liver eaten each day.

Anger of the gods is probably some gigantic spell that is as splashy as cruel ultimatum or something like it or just another spin on some wrath effect.

[TheArchitect]

Putrefy disagrees with you. Just reprinted in dragon's maze and look it says it on the card too. Mutilate, merciless eviction...both pretty much say can't be regenerated as well. Would not be surprised to see a damnation reprint in a god themed set.

That's a good point about putrefy. Mutilate and merciless eviction is how they want "cant be regenerated" destruction to have to be set up. Reprinting putrefy was an odd and contradicting choice. Damnation would definitely fit the whole god theme, but they have said before they really are trying to stay away from adding the can't be regen'd clause to cards so I still don't think it is too likely.

[evanmartyr]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1307

Suuuper disappointing, but I guess the theme decks haven't had interesting flagship cards for a while now (only one I can think of was the Krenko one from m13).

Bestow seems like a nifty mechanic IF there are some reasonably costed ones. I imagine a 2 mana 2/2 green creature that bestows for one or two could be functionally similar to Rancor in some situations.

So far Monstrosity triggers are absurdly expensive, so fuck that for Legacy.

Heroic seems crappy so far. Not a huge surprise.

Devotion to [color] is, I assume, the reworked Chroma mechanic. Again though, could be neat if there are cheaper options that still retain some impact.

[Gheizen64]

Devotion could have been interesting to push monocolor, but sadly, it's a kind of mechanic that would be super broken in standard before it got good in legacy due to how much on the board there is, comparatively. I say sadly because it's an interesting way to promote mono-color a bit but eeeh.

[Aggro_zombies]

Devotion could have been interesting to push monocolor, but sadly, it's a kind of mechanic that would be super broken in standard before it got good in legacy due to how much on the board there is, comparatively. I say sadly because it's an interesting way to promote mono-color a bit but eeeh.
If Chroma didn't do it, I don't see why Devotion would.

The "Living Weapon but for auras" is rather disappointing as the god mechanic. It seems like you're better off just casting it as a creature most of the time.

EDIT: Apparently (https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/372219786903556098), if the creature you're targeting dies, the Bestow dude still resolves as a creature instead of giving your opponent a 2-for-1. Odd. I guess that's necessary to make the mechanic not crappy.

[Lemnear]

The only chance to see Devotion in Legacy is within tribal decks like Meerfolk, goblins and Elves.

I just talked about in the Elves-thread as MaRo basically announced a 5/5 Legendary Enchantment Creature for GG and Devotion

[Kayradis]

I kinda like the black dude. Some of us here are toying with a mono-b control shell.

[Gheizen64]

The only chance to see Devotion in Legacy is within tribal decks like Meerfolk, goblins and Elves.

I just talked about in the Elves-thread as MaRo basically announced a 5/5 Legendary Enchantment Creature for GG and Devotion

A legendary enchantment creature for GG as a vanilla 5/5 would already go unplayed. If devotion is a negative ability, card sucks.

[Barook]

Sounds like the reworked two mechanics instead of one.

Bestow reminds me alot of Liquids, except with less rules nightmares. I would watch out for the staples of the GW Hexproof deck in Modern as they might get new toys to play with.

They could have named Monstrosity Commander and it would have been more fitting. I like EDH and don't mind a card here and there, but shit like this should stay in the Commander sets because it's getting ridiculous.

Devotion sounds like a fixed Chroma.

@Lemnear: I don't think that's the green god.


- A 5/5 giant snake that can be cast for :g::g:

Black devotion cards might be cool. Between stuff like DRS, Bob and Liliana, there are quite a few cards to feed devotion - or brew something with Dark Rituals. :tongue:

[Infinitium]

I.. actually like the god creature spoiled thus far? The Devotion mechanic actually makes sense, as does the related animation mechanic. Granted a 5/5 unblockable indestructible creature (that gives card quality) for 3 is pretty fucken broken for standard, even if it comes online on turn 4 at the earliest and only in permanent-heavy decks.

As for legacy, eh. In b4 Stax shell (scry, win condition and fucking over planswalkers are do-want abilities though, just sayin').

[TheArchitect]

Well looks like chroma was the reworked mechaninc. Would not have seen that one coming.

Bestow is actually kinda cool. It fixes the part of the "problem" of aura's often giving your opponent an easy 2 for 1.

Dont forget, almost all of the cards in intro packs are usually unplayable, not only in legacy, but even in standard so don't get too upset already.

[Barook]

The wording has been updated:

Thassa, God of the Sea :2::u:
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn’t a creature. (Each :u: in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
:1::u:: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
5/5

It costs one more devotion, but keeps being Indestructible - which makes it AD-proof. As far as the power level is concerned - I like it and it might very well be Legacy-playable in the right deck.

Let's have a look at important blue permanents that see Legacy play outside of Merfolk:

Delver (only unflipped), Snapcaster Mage, Clique, JMS, Counterbalance, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent

Five Devotion makes it less attractive for Merfolk since you can only jam it down on T3 as creatures with Vial support now.

But I could see it finding a home in U/W Miracles, especially the Legends build Joe Lossett runs (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5866433). It has Cliques, Counterbalance, JMS and Venser to get the God active and there's synergy with Karakas to dodge your own Terminus (while it doesn't care about Supreme Verdict, which is a plus). The Scry 1 ability helps to get rid of chaff with Brainstorms, SDT and Jace and improves card quality even by itself. And it can be a 5/5 indestructible beatstick which happens to be unblockable and has AWESOME.

I'm kinda excited for the white God now since it might have high relevance in Death & Taxes if it costs 3 mana. But my educated guess tells me that only the blue one is going to be good while the rest is overcosted jank. I sure can't wait for the red God who pings players for 1. :rolleyes:

[TsumiBand]

If Chroma didn't do it, I don't see why Devotion would.

The "Living Weapon but for auras" is rather disappointing as the god mechanic. It seems like you're better off just casting it as a creature most of the time.

EDIT: Apparently (https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/372219786903556098), if the creature you're targeting dies, the Bestow dude still resolves as a creature instead of giving your opponent a 2-for-1. Odd. I guess that's necessary to make the mechanic not crappy.

Well that's classically always the problem with Auras right? They have to be exceptionally cheap to be able to sneak by someone's removal because the blow-out just isn't worth it. I can think of like four Auras ever that are half worth considering outside of Hexproof.dec - the rest are just Limited jank. (Rancor, Moldervine Cloak (because no blow out, w00t), Curiosity, and as a distant fourth your friend and mine, Armadillo Cloak)

I figured they would have done something like Splice onto Creatures with the Auras. Like you cast a creature and then pay some extra, reveal the Aura, if the spell resolves attach the Aura as the creature ETB. However I do kind of like the idea of Auras that just turn into creatures. The spoiled White card is kind of a beast, kind of - 4/4 flying first strike for 3WW doesn't suck too bad, and while the Bestow cost is not really probably worth it in Legacy, there will be more cards to evaluate later.

Maybe we'll see a cheaper version of Auratouched Mage or the Blue one that kind of does the same thing but not? That 2/2 for 1UU guy. (EDIT: Academy Researchers is the Blue card.) Anyway, honestly Auras have waited a long time to be focused on, apart from incidentally due to Hexproof being kinda busted, so I'm down to see what happens.

[theillest]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/arc1307_uiojkl_booster5.jpg
Mirage reprint?

[Rush80]

The wording has been updated:

Thassa, God of the Sea :2::u:
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn’t a creature. (Each :u: in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
:1::u:: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
5/5

It costs one more devotion, but keeps being Indestructible - which makes it AD-proof. As far as the power level is concerned - I like it and it might very well be Legacy-playable in the right deck.

Let's have a look at important blue permanents that see Legacy play outside of Merfolk:

Delver (only unflipped), Snapcaster Mage, Clique, JMS, Counterbalance, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent

Five Devotion makes it less attractive for Merfolk since you can only jam it down on T3 as creatures with Vial support now.

But I could see it finding a home in U/W Miracles, especially the Legends build Joe Lossett runs (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5866433). It has Cliques, Counterbalance, JMS and Venser to get the God active and there's synergy with Karakas to dodge your own Terminus (while it doesn't care about Supreme Verdict, which is a plus). The Scry 1 ability helps to get rid of chaff with Brainstorms, SDT and Jace and improves card quality even by itself. And it can be a 5/5 indestructible beatstick which happens to be unblockable and has AWESOME.

I'm kinda excited for the white God now since it might have high relevance in Death & Taxes if it costs 3 mana. But my educated guess tells me that only the blue one is going to be good while the rest is overcosted jank. I sure can't wait for the red God who pings players for 1. :rolleyes:


Possibly there is a cycle for each color of 5/5 Legendary Enchantment Creature - Gods.
Each has to be indestructible, cheap casting cost with devotion as penalty and a different arrays of skills.
We know the green one costs GG.

As said previously in this forum, it may turn out to be a boost for mono-colored decks, goblins, elves, white w. and perhaps bears.

Also multiple casting color cards (e.g. Wheel of sun and moon; Boros Reckoner, ...) may get some synergistic benefits with devotion.

[Zombie]

The green one isn't the God card - Maro spoke of a snake, yet the green deity is a humanoid.

[FTW]

Yeah, Chroma kind of failed at pushing monocolor due to all those crazy hybrid cards. It ended up being unplayable or pushing Sanity Grinding.LOLZ with a bunch of 5cc unplayable stuff. Devotion could force some interesting design choices, especially after Rav...

Does anyone think the 2RR red Monstrosity could be playable in moon stompy? 4/5 for 2RR is pretty damn good as far as red beaters go (and no hoops to get around or vulnerability to bolt or manasinking like Pit Dragon), and if you ever do hit 7 mana with this and 3sphere/Chalice out it's GG.

The Gods are interesting for Standard... Nice mechanic in that they are immune to most forms of death but still "shut off" by Day of Judgment (due to everything else dying). For Legacy, meh, Merfolk doesn't need that effect... nor would Goblins need a non-Goblin card or Elves need a 5/5 beater.

[Tylert]

I don't see a lot of decks that have 4 U in the mana cost of permanents they use at the same time on the table, and that could use this card.
Devotion in legacy seems difficult to trigger, especially for Blue which is more of a support color (Well, it doesn't play that much permanents).

Jace / Clique (However they are both legendaries and most of the time if you have Jace and clique on the board you are probably already winning).
Merfolks? Do they want to play this card?
In Shardless BUG?? but what would it replace?

I like the card, but i don't see it making too much impact. you can neuter it easily by removing other permanents with U in the casting cost.
Maybe a finisher in a MUC control deck playing permanents, but can it be viable???

I'm waiting for the white one with high expectations... a 1 mana taxing effect would be so great on it :)

[Barook]

I'm waiting for the white one with high expectations... a 1 mana taxing effect would be so great on it :)
My predictions are:

White: life gain
Blue: Scry 1 (already known)
Black: no idea
Red: ping player for 1 damage
Green: +1/+1 counter on target creature

That would sound like something Wizards would do.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Why is the Kraken a crab? :confused:

[Zombie]

Green: +1/+1 counter on target creature

That would sound like something Wizards would do.

If the casting cost was low enough it'd actually be amazing in Elves. Zenithable/Orderable, hard to kill with creature removal and can just dump a bunch of mana to turn individual Elves into threats.

[Tylert]

If the casting cost was low enough it'd actually be amazing in Elves. Zenithable/Orderable, hard to kill with creature removal and can just dump a bunch of mana to turn individual Elves into threats.

I guess the +1/+1 counter on target creature is more what would be triggered in the upkeep... the 1G activated ability could be something like target creature gets trample until end of turn.

[rufus]

Why is the Kraken a crab? :confused:

They cross-bred it with slivers. Also, still not good enough for Quest for Ula's temple.

[Lemnear]

I guess the +1/+1 counter on target creature is more what would be triggered in the upkeep... the 1G activated ability could be something like target creature gets trample until end of turn.

1G: Fight-ability

would be awesome

[Barook]

1G: Fight-ability
would be awesome
That would be amazing, except it would get stupid pretty quickly once God Mode is turned on. X damage to target creature for :1::g: and being repeatable?

Trample, regeneration, deathtouch and Lure are possible candidates. My money is on Lure since it would work pretty well with an indestructible God.

[Gheizen64]

Purphorops, not so awesome god 2R
Creature etc...
Indestructible
Not so awesome (this card is red and as such sucks)
At the beginning of your upkeep, ping for 1
Devotion 5
1R: ping for 1
5/5

Wouldn't even be too bad honestly. White and black ones will be the important ones i think (white has D&T and many colored permanents that you want to keep on the board, while black has dark ritual and could possibly play something like Dark Tutelage for easy Devotion).

The monstrous cards for now all sucks seriously. Who thought a 7 mana cost was relevant? 11 mana to destroy 3 lands ? Lol. Unless we get something crazy for later mana generation like a super-gilded lotus, i'm not seeing any of those cards seeing play anywhere.

[jrw1985]

Thassa, God of the Sea
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn’t a creature. (Each U in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
5/5


Good in Merfolk? It can be Vialed in, it has an ability to make 4/4 Folk unblockable even if the opponent doesn't play Islands, and it Scryes away the redundant Islands and bad countermagic to up your Merfolk count once you hit the midgame. Oh, and with 2 UU folk out this guy is bigger than batterskull. Seems fairly decent.

[Star|Scream]

Thassa, God of the Sea
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn’t a creature. (Each U in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
5/5


Good in Merfolk? It can be Vialed in, it has an ability to make 4/4 Folk unblockable even if the opponent doesn't play Islands, and it Scryes away the redundant Islands and bad countermagic to up your Merfolk count once you hit the midgame. Oh, and with 2 UU folk out this guy is bigger than batterskull. Seems fairly decent.

EDIT:
Why would you want a non-merfolk card that requires you to have AT least 2 other creatures on the board to even work?

[Zombie]

2, actually. The God counts itself, and Folk is chock full of UU cards.

[HPB_Eggo]

Completely ignoring power level, flavor, or potential usefulness in Legacy...

Am I the only one who's really happy that they're putting PW-esque repeatable abilities on cards that aren't PW for once? It's been - in my memory, at least - a long while since we've seen any remotely strong repeatable effects on anything that isn't a PW. Hopefully they're moving away from making them the only permanents capable of doing things.

Also, potential use of all these things in Enchantress should be considered. Blue God doesn't seem particularly great - Scry 1 every turn is nice but you can get a similar effect from Library/Guile and the deck doesn't care about having unblockable, 5/5 creatures with indestructibility - but the Green or White Gods might work out well, along with the slight possibility that some of the other Enchantment Creatures/Artifacts they print might boost the deck up a little. Will have to wait and see.

[Star|Scream]

2, actually. The God counts itself, and Folk is chock full of UU cards.

Fair enough, but the point is still valid. Having this in your hand or on the battlefield and drawing things like cursecatcher, image, reejery is terrible. It doesn't do anything on its own, which makes it a terrible topdeck.

[.dk]

/edit: i'm an idiot and can't read

[TheArchitect]

Completely ignoring power level, flavor, or potential usefulness in Legacy...

Am I the only one who's really happy that they're putting PW-esque repeatable abilities on cards that aren't PW for once? It's been - in my memory, at least - a long while since we've seen any remotely strong repeatable effects on anything that isn't a PW. Hopefully they're moving away from making them the only permanents capable of doing things.

THIS. I'm glad to once again see creatures can do something good that's not a trigger on entering the battlefield or leaving the battlefield.

[Rush80]

Seems like there might be a new Painter's Servant deck coming here if any of these actually turn out to be reasonable. Could potentially give a potent backup backup plan to Grindstone in the form of 5/5 indestructible dudes swinging in.

Mmm....
may not work if you read the description of Devotion:

Each U in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.

[.dk]

yep, already edited my post. i should sleep more.

[clavio]

Completely ignoring power level, flavor, or potential usefulness in Legacy...

Am I the only one who's really happy that they're putting PW-esque repeatable abilities on cards that aren't PW for once? It's been - in my memory, at least - a long while since we've seen any remotely strong repeatable effects on anything that isn't a PW. Hopefully they're moving away from making them the only permanents capable of doing things.

Mercurial Chemister was a total beast (....in limited) once he got going

EDIT: What about Deathrite Shaman? Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

[HPB_Eggo]

Mercurial Chemister was a total beast (....in limited) once he got going

EDIT: What about Deathrite Shaman? Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

Was more speaking to the Scry 1 than the Unblockable, and more to the fact that it's an Enchantment than that it's a creature.

Still, I think Scry 1 every turn no matter what is a very different feel than DRS or Chemister or things of that sort. Very similar to what PWs do, and I'm really glad that they at least appear to be putting PW-like impact on permanents that aren't PWs. DRS is similar in that it has PW power-level and flexibility, but how it feels when you play its abilities out just seems very different to me.

[Koby]

I'm apathetic about this set. However, I wouldn't be surprised if some interesting cards show up and make waves in Eternal formats. I expect to see some very interesting twists on Artifacts for Workshop. I doubt actual spells will make their way to Eternal however.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

They cross-bred it with slivers.




You win.:frown:

[from Cairo]

I think Thassa, God of the Sea is pretty cool. It doesn't jump out at me as amazing in Legacy or anything, but at the same time it has some nice utility factors tacked into one card. I could see one of the gods turning out to be playable, this one could even take a fringe slot in some Legacy list. Maybe something like Sea/Faerie Stompy would run this as a 1-2 of, giving a Sol shell deck Scry is valuable and tacking it onto a permanent that can grant creatures unblockability and become a 5/5 unblockable/indestructible itself is a pretty good package. I don't think the card is crazy good or anything, but it's interesting.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The idea of Didgeridoo becoming playable is appropriate since this seems so far to be the worst designed piece of shit set since then.

Legendary Enchantment Creature- God. No. Fuck off. Fuck right off.

This shit would stand out for awfulness in a fan card creation forum.

Also, Chroma.

It's called Chroma.

You already had this mechanic.


Completely ignoring power level, flavor, or potential usefulness in Legacy...

Am I the only one who's really happy that they're putting PW-esque repeatable abilities on cards that aren't PW for once? It's been - in my memory, at least - a long while since we've seen any remotely strong repeatable effects on anything that isn't a PW. Hopefully they're moving away from making them the only permanents capable of doing things.

Deathrite Shaman
Sword of Feast and Famine
Batterskull
Stoneforge Mystic
Young Pyromancer
Gravecrawler
Knight of the Reliquary
Scavenging Ooze
Griselbrand
Titans
Everything in Elves

etc..

[Lemnear]

Also, Chroma.

It's called Chroma.

You already had this mechanic.

Just doesn't sound fitting so they choose a new shiny wrap for the old, boring crap.

Jesus, if they would have named all the stupid Kicker-variants they released over the last 7 years of the game as exactly what they are, the game had only half the number of keywords it currently has.

[Aggro_zombies]

Also, Chroma.

It's called Chroma.

You already had this mechanic.
It's not exactly chroma. Devotion to black counts the number of :b:, not the number of black mana symbols, which matters for things like hybrid (:bg: contains a black mana symbol but doesn't count as :b:).

We knew there was a tweaked returning mechanic - in fact, the only mechanic we don't know right now is the outright returning mechanic, unless that's scry. If it is, none of the mechanics in this set are remotely interesting. My guess is it'll end up like Dragon's Maze: bland set with a couple interesting cards in it.

[rufus]

... My guess is it'll end up like Dragon's Maze: bland set with a couple interesting cards in it.

Isn't that the design formula: yawnfest + chase rare?

[TsumiBand]

I think it's different enough from Chroma that it isn't fair to compare the two.

Chroma was generally [Do something X times where X is the number of mana symbols]. Devotion is more like "Threshold for mana symbols". Seven cards in graveyard vs. five mana symbols in play, but both unlock abilities of spells or permanents (as worded so far).

And that's only given the single example; Thassa looks for 5+ devotion to stop NOT being a creature. Other permanents may do the inverse and explicitly gain some quality, like "blah blah white thing 5 devotion or more, -this- has flanking and bands with Gods" or something.

I personally would like to see a few more examples before I evaluate whether or not the mechanic or the set is valuable. Calling it at 33 cards just because they showed their affinity for checkboxes ("we haven't done artifact enchantments yeah, ho ho!") is a little premature.

[Star|Scream]

You guys are so jaded. Do you even like the game?

[Phoenix Ignition]

You guys are so jaded. Do you even like the game?

Haven't you ever heard a friend complaining about their family before? Everyone likes to vent frustration, but it's not like they're going to stop being family.

[Barook]

You guys are so jaded. Do you even like the game?
As far as Dragon's Maze is concerned, it was received quite badly.

MaRo blames it on the "complexity" of the set. I would blame it on uninspiring, overcosted jank across the board.

[Aggro_zombies]

You guys are so jaded. Do you even like the game?
I used to. But the last three sets have been shitty, and this one looks like it will be shitty too. An entire year's worth of shitty sets isn't unheard-of, but it would be nice if they didn't do that in the first place.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

For the record, I quite like the God-card concept and its execution so far. In my mind, that's what the Planeswalkers should have been like. I still don't like Planeswalkers.

[Darkenslight]

You guys are so jaded. Do you even like the game?

Yes, but Wizards dun goofed with RTR block, as a whole. MaRo even admitted this in his recent State of Design article.

[HammafistRoob]

^Link?

[rufus]

^Link?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/262

MaRo seems to have a higher opinion of the sets than I do.

[mini1337s]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/262

MaRo seems to have a higher opinion of the sets than I do.
Dun goofed = best selling set of all time? They need to goof a bit more often if you ask me.