Yet To Be Broken Cards

[Rush80]

I am wondering about cards (Legacy playable) which have minimal use in Legacy nowadays but people feel they have a great potential if and when additional cards are printed.

I suggest to have a Thread about this topic if it has not been address yet.

Possible examples are:
Force of Savagery
Helix pinnacle
Mayael's Aria
Mortal Combat
Lich's Mirror
Phage the Untouchable
Transcendence
One with nothing
Naked Singularity
Divine Intervention
Goblin Game
Scornful Egotist
Battle of the Wits
Biovisionary
Near-Death Experience
Test of Endurance
Lich
Hatred
Cadaverous Bloom

Please find below a link for Alternate Win/lose Conditions cards
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Alternate-win_card

Perhaps you may choose to contribute to this thread suggesting cards with great potential: "the Yet to be broken cards" (YTBB).

[Nihil Credo]

I don't see the point of this thread, other than listing your pet cards and saying "oh I wish Wizards would print something to make them good!", which is just white noise.

Magic is such a complicated game that nearly every card more complex than a vanilla has a chance of being broken by the right card; this is neither interesting nor useful information. Would Grindstone have been mentioned in a thread like this, before Painter's Servant was printed? Even if it did, would it have stood out compared to hundreds of other cards equally as unlikely to become combo pieces?

I'm not locking this thread yet, but only on the off-chance that I am wrong or missing something.

[(nameless one)]

I have toyed with Naked Singularity (with Welder) before. If you can get both to stick, you will win the game but so can Welder + Sundering Titan/Mindslaver.

The problem was the deck's dependency to Goblin Welder.

Shouldn't Goblin Game be banned? I feel like it suffers from Shaharazad Syndrome.

[apple713]

I am wondering about cards (Legacy playable) which have minimal use in Legacy nowadays but people feel they have a great potential if and when additional cards are printed.

I suggest to have a Thread about this topic if it has not been address yet.

Possible examples are:
Force of Savagery
Lich's Mirror
Phage the Untouchable
One with nothing
Naked Singularity
Scornful Egotist
Battle of the Wits
Biovisionary
Near-Death Experience
Test of Endurance
Lich
Hatred
Cadaverous Bloom

Please find below a link for Alternate Win/lose Conditions cards
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Alternate-win_card

Perhaps you may choose to contribute to this thread suggesting cards with great potential: "the Yet to be broken cards" (YTBB).

Actually im just gonna stop here (and not finish what i was writing) cause your wasting everones time...

Divine Intervention - this card forces a draw....WTF do you expect to break about it? a 0-0-X record?



The problem with those cards is that most are too mana intensive for legacy.

Helix pinnacle
Mayael's Aria
Goblin Game

To time intensive

Mortal Combat
Transcendence

[catmint]

It might not be a competitive discussion, but why not let people speculate about crazy combos. I don't think locking this thread is appropriate. There have been a lot MUCH more crappy threads which have not been threatened to be locked. If this is a start to a more restricive moderation so the quality of the forum is increased I would appreciate it, but then moving it to "casual" is also an option.

To the topic: can't thik of anything that makes lich even a tier3 combo. :smile:

[noahgs]

Why are we being so harsh on this and calling it a waste of time, It makes for good conversation and the decks of tomorrow may be comprised of some of these little gems.

[evanmartyr]

I've always thought that there were a few hidden gems waiting to be exploited. The card that immediately leaps to mind is Didgeridoo. Just needs a huge, game-ending Minotaur or Changeling, or some card (some card better than Conspiracy, rather) that turns all your huge, game-ending monsters into a Minotaur.

Really, anything that references a tribe and does something potentially powerful or unique is a pretty good candidate for this thread. I'm not sure most of the alternate win cons belong here, since they're not looking for an engine, per se, they're looking for a fragile and very specific board state (Near-Death Experience? Ugggggh.). Force of Savagery is the one in your list that I didn't know about.

Darksteel Reactor, actually, I'd throw in the list. It's not horrifically expensive, mana-wise, it's durable, it wins immediately upon the condition being met (not during your upkeep like a lot of the others) and it doesn't require you to do anything other than flop around on top of the opponent for 20 turns (or less, if you have some way to charge it like Energy Chamber, Power Conduit, Surge Node, or Coretapper. So until we get the reverse version of Vampire Hexmage, which I doubt will show up anytime soon, it'll be a weird build-around card.

Test of Endurance seems fine, but most decks that care about life gain either don't generate nearly enough extra life to get that high or have a much easier way of winning (Any version of Soul Sisters or Zombardment that's successful in Legacy will just kill your opponent rather than bother with a 4cc enchantment).

[thefringthing]

Won't this just be a list of every unplayable Johnny rare?

[JanoschEausH]

I once played around with Near-Death Experience, Blood Celebrant, Academy Rector, Plunge into Darkness and Diabolic Intent. Was fun. But nowhere near competetive.

[Rush80]

To All,

thank you for sharing your feeling about being full-of-wonders on this Thread. This make you wonder-full as the Game itself.


In this Thread, I suggest to avoid looking to combo-cards amongst the one printed which work now but we are open to speculation about possible cards which may interact nicely.

For example:

To the topic: can't thik of anything that makes lich even a tier3 combo. :smile:

Assuming the following card: { WW Stairs to Heaven: Sorcery. You gain 20 life. You lose the game at the beginning of your the next upkeep }.
You may not exclude Wizards print a card which allow you to gain a significant amount of life.

On Divine Intervention: It is the only card which allows you to intentionally draw.
Now consider this upcoming card, which Wizard may print (remember that in this game it is possible to draw intentionally or not):
{ B Tipping Point: Enchantment. When you cast Tipping Point you lose 6 life. If the game ends in a draw; you win. }

On Mana and Time Intensive cards for Legacy: yes these card looks intensive until they are not:
Omniscience, Hive Mind, Grieslebrand, Emrakul and many Bombs are perfect example of cards played now in Legacy.

To Nihil Credo: I share your concern about any card being a possible Bomb if new enabling-card is printed.
However we may identify now specific themes that certain cards have which may create synergy with new cards as they are printed:
Divine Intervention is an example, Force of savagery another one being the only creature with a significant power and zero toughness.

I still remember how Chaos Orb used to be use in Type 1...

Wonders and Imagination

[Tao]

You can significantly reduce the list by removing cards that CANNOT be broken or that simply have better alternatives already.

For example even if you get Force of Savagery to work, it will still be not much better than Knight of the Reliquary so what is the point. Same for Biovisionary. Control four KotRs at the beginning of your upkeep and you win the game as well. LED is strictly better by a million times compared to One with Nothing. Mortal Combat is way to restrictive in deck building and Divine Intervention isn't breakable by definition.

[Rush80]

To All,

thank you for sharing your feeling about being full-of-wonders on this Thread. This make you wonder-full as the Game itself.


In this Thread, I suggest to avoid looking to combo-cards amongst the one printed which work now but we are open to speculation about possible cards which may interact nicely.

For example:

To the topic: can't thik of anything that makes lich even a tier3 combo. :smile:

Assuming the following card: { WW Stairs to Heaven: Sorcery. You gain 20 life. You lose the game at the beginning of your the next upkeep }.
You may not exclude Wizards print a card which allow you to gain a significant amount of life.

On Divine Intervention: It is the only card which allows you to intentionally draw.
Now consider this upcoming card, which Wizard may print (remember that in this game it is possible to draw intentionally or not):
{ B Tipping Point: Enchantment. When you cast Tipping Point you lose 6 life. If the game ends in a draw; you win. }

On Mana and Time Intensive cards for Legacy: yes these card looks intensive until they are not:
Omniscience, Hive Mind, Grieslebrand, Emrakul and many Bombs are perfect example of cards played now in Legacy.

To Nihil Credo: I share your concern about any card being a possible Bomb if new enabling-card is printed.
However we may identify now specific themes that certain cards have which may create synergy with new cards as they are printed:
Divine Intervention is an example, Force of savagery another one being the only creature with a significant power and zero toughness.

I still remember how Chaos Orb used to be use in Type 1...

Wonders and Imagination

[spg]

Won't this just be a list of every unplayable Johnny rare?

I think most of the cards mentioned are likely unplayable Johnny rares, but you never know. Here are a few that I think about occasionally. They may not be candidates for being 'broken', but they might get good depending on which decks/metagames emerge:

Teferi's Response - I've tested this in the past and it's a huge blowout... when it works. Doesn't work very often though. For about 3 seconds when Deathrite Shaman started getting popular I thought this card was going to be sick tech - of course it doesn't work though.
Hunting Grounds - Needs a lot to go right to be good. If it could get the extra turn from Emrakul would be a lot better... Needs a lot to go right to be good.
Arboria - Weird Moat variant. Good with planeswalkers?
Strategic Planning - Was played in Vintage Welder decks for a short time, might find a niche home in a Legacy deck that wants to get cards into the graveyard without losing card advantage. Costs a fortune (in paper).
Tithe - I've played with this card before and it can be really strong. It can also be played in response to breaking a fetchland to get the greater effect. The primary weaknesses is that it makes mulligan decisions very difficult, and doesn't DO anything.
Artificer's Intuition - I've always loved this card and have been waiting for it to be usable. As far as I know there's no artifact Squee.
Necrologia - Competes with Ad Nauseum, might be better in some weird circumstances? Doesn't restrict deck construction casting costs as much.

[clavio]

Trained Armodon

[Julian23]

I don't know if anyone remembers the Deck but I played a Troll Divine Intervention in Wacky Deli.

[theillest]

This list needs more limited resources.

[Tao]

I think most of the cards mentioned are likely unplayable Johnny rares, but you never know. Here are a few that I think about occasionally. They may not be candidates for being 'broken', but they might get good depending on which decks/metagames emerge:

Teferi's Response - I've tested this in the past and it's a huge blowout... when it works. Doesn't work very often though. For about 3 seconds when Deathrite Shaman started getting popular I thought this card was going to be sick tech - of course it doesn't work though.
Hunting Grounds - Needs a lot to go right to be good. If it could get the extra turn from Emrakul would be a lot better... Needs a lot to go right to be good.
Arboria - Weird Moat variant. Good with planeswalkers?
Strategic Planning - Was played in Vintage Welder decks for a short time, might find a niche home in a Legacy deck that wants to get cards into the graveyard without losing card advantage. Costs a fortune (in paper).
Tithe - I've played with this card before and it can be really strong. It can also be played in response to breaking a fetchland to get the greater effect. The primary weaknesses is that it makes mulligan decisions very difficult, and doesn't DO anything.
Artificer's Intuition - I've always loved this card and have been waiting for it to be usable. As far as I know there's no artifact Squee.
Necrologia - Competes with Ad Nauseum, might be better in some weird circumstances? Doesn't restrict deck construction casting costs as much.

Now those are some good ones. I like.

Also: Izzet Charm - great card in RUG decks with Loam

[Barook]

This list needs more limited resources.

That would wreak havoc in Standard.

But in Legacy, where most decks operate in the 2-3 mana range? Not so much.

@Tithe: Weathered Wayfarer is the overall better card.

[Tammit67]

I came here expecting people to be discussing engines and shells that are a card or two away from being really powerful and format defining like goblin welder or artificer's intuition or worldly tutor or sword of the meek/thopter foundry. You know, a bunch of really powerful effects that don't have a competitive home.

Was wholly disappointed.

[Koby]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s320/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

[nedleeds]

I once played around with Near-Death Experience, Blood Celebrant, Academy Rector, Plunge into Darkness and Diabolic Intent. Was fun. But nowhere near competetive.

Rectal Plunge.dec?

[Rush80]

I came here expecting people to be discussing engines and shells that are a card or two away from being really powerful and format defining like goblin welder or artificer's intuition or worldly tutor or sword of the meek/thopter foundry. You know, a bunch of really powerful effects that don't have a competitive home.

Was wholly disappointed.

I think "Broken" has different meaning for people:
Some people define Broken cards like Omniscience- a truly Bomb;
others, cards like Brainstorm. Notice how the printing of fetch-lands enhanced brainstorm.

Recently, Spg, Tao and theillest focused on low CC cards which may become staples.

I personally think Hunting Grounds can be big; still ******** deck are missing a good wheel of fortune card.

Other like to focus on wierd-card with alternate win conditions (aka Lab Man).

Tammit67, would you like to share any suggestions or insight?

[lordofthepit]

Nefarious Lich
Autochthon Wurm

Anyone know a sick brew?

[Koby]

I think "Broken" has different meaning for people:
Some people define Broken cards like Omniscience- a truly Bomb;
others, cards like Brainstorm. Notice how the printing of fetch-lands enhanced brainstorm.


No I think we're all in agreement about what broken means. It's a degenerate effect or synergy that is so rampant or powerful as to warp the format around it.

Omniscience? Check.
Brainstorm + shuffle? Check.

Divine Intervention? Umm.. not really.

[force_of_phil]

The first card that comes to my mind is Lotus Cobra. Turn 2 cobra means 5 mana on turn 3 without any setup. It allows chaining a lot of cards for free, such as Explore or Harrow. Maybe there's potential for a turboland deck based around it, playing lots of extra fetches to thin the deck and generate mana, and Time Warp recursion. It's certainly better than running Horn of Greed, but is it better than High Tide?

[Barook]

The first card that comes to my mind is Lotus Cobra. Turn 2 cobra means 5 mana on turn 3 without any setup. It allows chaining a lot of cards for free, such as Explore or Harrow. Maybe there's potential for a turboland deck based around it, playing lots of extra fetches to thin the deck and generate mana, and Time Warp recursion. It's certainly better than running Horn of Greed, but is it better than High Tide?

Actually, I wonder why Exploration + CoW never sees play. Multiple fetches/Wastelands a turn sounds sexy.

[evanmartyr]

Won't this just be a list of every unplayable Johnny rare?

Every unplayable Johnny permanent was considered shit casual until Show and Tell. That red thing from Coldsnap was considered terrible until Griselbrand got printed and now you need just that one big demon in play to win the game with it. Blazing Shoal was considered unplayable until Infect creatures and 10+cc red AND green creatures.

The point is to find cards that break the rules, but require something that doesn't exist in the current card-pool to be good, let alone competitive, so we can more accurately scan through spoilers and get brewing as soon as something does show up.

[apple713]

I think most of the cards mentioned are likely unplayable Johnny rares, but you never know. Here are a few that I think about occasionally. They may not be candidates for being 'broken', but they might get good depending on which decks/metagames emerge:

Teferi's Response - I've tested this in the past and it's a huge blowout... when it works. Doesn't work very often though. For about 3 seconds when Deathrite Shaman started getting popular I thought this card was going to be sick tech - of course it doesn't work though.
Hunting Grounds - Needs a lot to go right to be good. If it could get the extra turn from Emrakul would be a lot better... Needs a lot to go right to be good.
Arboria - Weird Moat variant. Good with planeswalkers?
Strategic Planning - Was played in Vintage Welder decks for a short time, might find a niche home in a Legacy deck that wants to get cards into the graveyard without losing card advantage. Costs a fortune (in paper).
Tithe - I've played with this card before and it can be really strong. It can also be played in response to breaking a fetchland to get the greater effect. The primary weaknesses is that it makes mulligan decisions very difficult, and doesn't DO anything.
Artificer's Intuition - I've always loved this card and have been waiting for it to be usable. As far as I know there's no artifact Squee.
Necrologia - Competes with Ad Nauseum, might be better in some weird circumstances? Doesn't restrict deck construction casting costs as much.


That would wreak havoc in Standard.

hunting grounds seems like the only card on that list that is breakable. It's tutorable via enlightened. It falls in the right colors but missing itself does not. Threshold is very very easy to get with fetchlands and tempo... consider stifle, wasteland, ponder, brainstorm... so on t3. It would be played in a bant variant. It can be protected by sterling grove, and tutored for with it.


arboria doesnt protect against attacking planeswalkers.

But in Legacy, where most decks operate in the 2-3 mana range? Not so much.

@Tithe: Weathered Wayfarer is the overall better card.

weathered wayfarer is not better than tithe. Tithe can get you 2 plains. Weathered wayferer dies to bolt and swords before it gets you anthying. Not to mention its more mana intensive. It does have long term potential BUT your only gonna have fewer lands than opponent for so long until you catch up.... then its just a 1/1

i think the card that you would rather play is brainstorm...better than both combined :P

[Rush80]

The point is to find cards that break the rules, but require something that doesn't exist in the current card-pool to be good, let alone competitive, so we can more accurately scan through spoilers and get brewing as soon as something does show up.

That's it.
Thank You for saying clearer. :wink:

A good starting point maybe to scan through unique/weird/out-of-the-box features of some existing cards which have the potential to become big hitters.

[(nameless one)]

I once played around with Near-Death Experience, Blood Celebrant, Academy Rector, Plunge into Darkness and Diabolic Intent. Was fun. But nowhere near competetive.

Blood Moon should be on the OP list.

[evanmartyr]

weathered wayfarer is not better than tithe. Tithe can get you 2 plains. Weathered wayferer dies to bolt and swords before it gets you anthying. Not to mention its more mana intensive. It does have long term potential BUT your only gonna have fewer lands than opponent for so long until you catch up.... then its just a 1/1

i think the card that you would rather play is brainstorm...better than both combined :P

Wayfarer fetches wasteland, karakas, etc and its requirements are easily met with daze, fetch lands, etc. See u/w tempo for a deck that really takes advantage of it.

I'll admit that tithe is great for plumping out your hand and making land drops, but legacy requires a bit more out of its cards than that. Bottom line is that it does nothing inherently broken other than the potential for 1-for-2 at 1 mana.

[troopatroop]

Wayfarer fetches wasteland, karakas, etc and its requirements are easily met with daze, fetch lands, etc. See u/w tempo for a deck that really takes advantage of it.

I'll admit that tithe is great for plumping out your hand and making land drops, but legacy requires a bit more out of its cards than that. Bottom line is that it does nothing inherently broken other than the potential for 1-for-2 at 1 mana.

+1

Wayfarer is amazing in conjuction with Sac-Lands and Wasteland. It can do a lot more than Tithe, but they're really very different cards.

[Gheizen64]

The first card that comes to my mind is Lotus Cobra. Turn 2 cobra means 5 mana on turn 3 without any setup. It allows chaining a lot of cards for free, such as Explore or Harrow. Maybe there's potential for a turboland deck based around it, playing lots of extra fetches to thin the deck and generate mana, and Time Warp recursion. It's certainly better than running Horn of Greed, but is it better than High Tide?

Maybe some kind of turbo eldrazi exploration shell? Card look pretty strong indeed.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This thread is interesting, but I fear that Rush80 wants too much from us. We can't tell what broken things will be printed in future sets and thus it's quite hard to concentrate on potentially sick cards already printed. See: lets say they'll print this card:



Might of the Fourth Edition :1::g:

Enchantment

All Craw Wurm cards in your hand
cost:1: less to play for each
Llanowar Elves you control.

All Llanowar Elves creatures you control
get +1/+1 for each Forest you control.

Whenever a creature named Craw Wurm
enters the battlefield on your side,
search you library for a Forest card and put it
onto the battlefield.






Shall we discuss the brokeness of Craw Wurm? :smile:

I wish that someone breaks Kederekt Parasite. I bought twenty of them.

[evanmartyr]

That's super reductive. Boo.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's super reductive.

You mean my card? It wasn't meant 100% seriously.

Ok, from the OP, the only cards that made me wonder are these three:

Lich
Hatred
Cadaverous Bloom

The other cards are uninteresting and also: we may wait for years until something breaks Force of Savagery. But correct me if I'm wrong - does the Divine Intervention end just the game? If so, you may use it to end the matches (if you win at least one game) inShahrazad style. Not that it's brilliant idea.


So lets discuss the three cards I like:

Lich
Ahem, I changed my mind and I rathe not discuss it. It's a unique effect, of course and I still tinker with and idea to build Lich deck.

Hatred
Channel-Fireball, except you need creature instead of Fireball. To make it broken, you'd need something like negative Kavu Predaotr (preferbly with some sort of protection and/or evasion) or some way to gain life (if you don't plan it to play it like combo). The :1::b: phyrexian lifelinker that Affinity plays comes to mind. It'll be funny with Lich. :wink:

Cadaverous Bloom
This one was played in a combo deck seventeen years ago. I like the effect. But it just adds mana when your engine is going on, without it, it can't do anything. What woul you cut for it? Dark Ritual? Ad Nauseam? So, imagine the card that breaks tCadaverous Bloom and share it with us! Make it not really broken (no Disco Inferno), but rather design it so that it is a perfect card for the new Cadaverous [insert your card here] deck.

[Michael Keller]

If you can find a way to stuff Cadaverous Bloom in some sort of Enchantress shell with Oath of Lim-Dul, you can basically create a cycle-engine that lets you draw through your entire deck until you find multiple copies of other draw effects for the possible game-ending spell or ability.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you can find a way to stuff Cadaverous Bloom in some sort of Enchantress shell with Oath of Lim-Dul, you can basically create a cycle-engine that lets you draw through your entire deck until you find multiple copies of other draw effects for the possible game-ending spell or ability.

http://asuclub.net/images/smilies/smiley_clap.gif
That's nice find! These cards are expensive, but Enchantress shouldn't have trouble casting them. Interesting!

[monovfox]

Yet again, I will mention kill fiend.

3 damage per storm? Sign me up.

[rufus]

This seems like a pretty awful OP. All the drawbacks of a lame SCD post with none of the focus on a single card.

[Lord Seth]

Shouldn't Goblin Game be banned? I feel like it suffers from Shaharazad Syndrome.
Not at all. There are two key differences between the two. First, Shahrazad costs 2 mana, Goblin Game costs 7. Five mana is a huge difference. Second, Shahrazad makes players play out an entire game, which is much longer than just hiding a few objects. Additionally, simply writing down a number is an acceptable shortcut for Goblin Game (I'm surprised the card doesn't just tell you to do that in the first place), whereas you can't really "shortcut" an entire game of Magic.

You might as well wonder why Inspiration is allowed while Ancestral Recall is banned.

[rufus]

Cards like Divine Intervention explicitly cause draws were banned for a while, and that would be a more reasonable thing to consider since it does, effectively, cause another game. Though they'd have to ban Karn for the same reason then.

[Sloshthedark]

lol, half of the cards are downright idiotic "you win the game" cards, that kind of effect should not even exist in the game imho... :rolleyes: regardless how awful these are...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Teferi's Response - I've tested this in the past and it's a huge blowout... when it works. Doesn't work very often though.
Every time I play RUG, I tell to myself: "dude, why don't you try this in your sb, everyone plays Wasteland and there might even be someone playing Port", but then I just realize how tight the sb space is.

[Rush80]

Other YTBB Cards:

Argivian Restoration
Biorhythm
Enchanted Evening
Fathom Seer
Fold into Aether
Game Preserve
Gamekeeper
Hand of Praetors
Hedron Crab
Illusions of Grandeur
Kira, Great Glass-spinner
Kormus Bell
Layline of Singularity
Living Lands
Magus of The Vineyard
Mass Polymorph
Mimic Vat
Momentous Fall
Necrotic Ooze
Rooftop Storm
Sages of the Anima
Sanity Grinding
Shape Anew
Shifting Sky
Skeletal Scrying
Sun Titan
Telemin Performance
Tortured existence
Treasure Hunt
Treasure Mage
Twilight Shepherd
Underworld dreams

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Other YTBB Cards:
Fathom Seer
Illusions of Grandeur
Kira, Great Glass-spinner
Sun Titan


I'm not sure what you mean by broken, but...
- Fathom Seer was played in UW Tempo, you might find the thread on this site, it's a source of many laughs. Card wasn't broken, but strong enough. If they'd unban Fastbond (impossible) or print similar stuff (must be better than Exploration), this card may be broken. But again, it's not a Gush, you need three mana to play the Morph.
- Illusions of Grandeur were part of a broken combo deck back in late 90's and early 200x's. So yes, technically the card is broken and I think of designing a fun AdN deck with this and Zuran Orb. (Preferably Zuran Orb, as you combo on Trun 3 and this means three more lands to sac to feed both AdN and Crit.)
- Kira, GGS was played in Folks and I can't see it been broken anytime soon, unless some combination of these factors happen: WotC prints another Abrupt Decay, thus effectivelly forcing players to use pro-active creature protection instead of counterspells - btw, for a brief time I play Kira in RUG and sbed her when on the play, as it was my only answer to Decay -, they'd design a fragile yet broken creature card (but not even Dark Confidant is broken enough to warrant Kira's protection, so she's basically condemned to Merfolks' sb). There's nothing to break about Kira, unless we resort to "Power of the 4th Edition" jokes.
- Sun Titan is already broken in Bloodghast Dredge. The ability to combo on first turn with multiple Colliseum activations is amazing.

[(nameless one)]

Not at all. There are two key differences between the two. First, Shahrazad costs 2 mana, Goblin Game costs 7. Five mana is a huge difference. Second, Shahrazad makes players play out an entire game, which is much longer than just hiding a few objects. Additionally, simply writing down a number is an acceptable shortcut for Goblin Game (I'm surprised the card doesn't just tell you to do that in the first place), whereas you can't really "shortcut" an entire game of Magic.

You might as well wonder why Inspiration is allowed while Ancestral Recall is banned.

I guess I compared it to the wrong card but Goblin Game does involve dexterity outside of using coin flips.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I guess I compared it to the wrong card but Goblin Game does involve dexterity outside of using coin flips.

You meant Chaos Orb or Falling Star?

[Grollub]

My guess for a sleeper card would be Replenish. It's one-sided, there's tutors like Entomb and Intuition and it was viable in an era of Extended sporting Necropotence, Demonic Consultation, Yawgmoth's Will and Survival of the Fittest amongst others.

Not really a single card, but I think as an archtype Sligh is bound to get a resurge some time soon.

Feels like it just need one single new enchantment to break it.

[Teluin]

Sundial of the Infinite

[nedleeds]

weathered wayfarer is not better than tithe. Tithe can get you 2 plains. Weathered wayferer dies to bolt and swords before it gets you anthying.

Yeah ... and Sign in Blood is better than Dark Confidant.

[Megadeus]

- Kira, GGS was played in Folks and I can't see it been broken anytime soon, unless some combination of these factors happen: WotC prints another Abrupt Decay, thus effectivelly forcing players to use pro-active creature protection instead of counterspells - btw, for a brief time I play Kira in RUG and sbed her when on the play, as it was my only answer to Decay -, they'd design a fragile yet broken creature card (but not even Dark Confidant is broken enough to warrant Kira's protection, so she's basically condemned to Merfolks' sb). There's nothing to break about Kira, unless we resort to "Power of the 4th Edition" jokes.


Abrupt Decay can't be countered.... So Im confused here

[Tammit67]

Tammit67, would you like to share any suggestions or insight?

Did I not? I mentioned a couple things but here are a few more...
Artificer's Intuition
beck&call
Worldly tutor
Cloudstone curio
Gifts ungiven
Intuition
Traumatize (targeting yourself)
Snapcaster mage (combo shell besides solidarity)
Pyromancers ascension
Regrowth
Heartbeat of spring
Reforge the soul
Goblin welder
The entire staxx package and archetype (give it either a bit more power and consistency and we get vintage)
Attunement
Recurring Nightmare
Past in flames
Stasis
Spoils of the vault
Helm of awakening
Gush
Warp World
Krak-clan ironworks and co
The newer affinity lists in vintage

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Bed Decks Palyer View Post
- Kira, GGS was played in Folks and I can't see it been broken anytime soon, unless some combination of these factors happen: WotC prints another Abrupt Decay, thus effectivelly forcing players to use pro-active creature protection instead of counterspells - btw, for a brief time I play Kira in RUG and sbed her when on the play, as it was my only answer to Decay -, they'd design a fragile yet broken creature card (but not even Dark Confidant is broken enough to warrant Kira's protection, so she's basically condemned to Merfolks' sb). There's nothing to break about Kira, unless we resort to "Power of the 4th Edition" jokes.


Abrupt Decay can't be countered.... So Im confused here

Shhh! No one realized that yet, so why do you spoil my fun!? :mad:

Crap, so you're telling me that I wasted 10 bucks on a cute trick that doesn't work? Ok, at least I got that playable rare that might be broken some time in a future... :rolleyes:

But well, I believe that there are other people that will miss how the Kira-Decay interaction really works and make a same mistake as I did - I created a mental image that Kira is medlinmaging the Decay, rather than countering it, and that's why it happened to show in my sb for a while. Thanks for correcting me, I'd look like an idiot.
Otoh, I still may use her, in case I'd find it good against Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares and all that other annoying stuff that kills Delver/Goyf.


On the topic: Rush80, I'm afraid that of the cards you've mentioned, none will be broken any time. Tammit's list, however...
I'm a bit surprised Gifts don't see any play. I'd love Stasis to be good, I bought fourty of them. All of the mentioned cards are very powerful or at least very unique and I wouldn't be surprised if they define some tier1 deck in future years.

[evanmartyr]

Other YTBB Cards:

Argivian Restoration
Biorhythm
Enchanted Evening
Fathom Seer
Fold into Aether
Game Preserve
Gamekeeper
Hand of Praetors
Hedron Crab
Illusions of Grandeur
Kira, Great Glass-spinner
Kormus Bell
Layline of Singularity
Living Lands
Magus of The Vineyard
Mass Polymorph
Mimic Vat
Momentous Fall
Necrotic Ooze
Rooftop Storm
Sages of the Anima
Sanity Grinding
Shape Anew
Shifting Sky
Skeletal Scrying
Sun Titan
Telemin Performance
Tortured existence
Treasure Hunt
Treasure Mage
Twilight Shepherd
Underworld dreams

Some of those are really cool finds...Sanity Grinding is a new one to me, but seems like it could be really baller if more heavy blue spells that maybe have alternate casting costs show up...but even then, Chroma's not going to count mana sources, so it's unlikely to mill more than say Mind Funeral would (just as an example at that casting cost).

I don't think Magus of the Vineyard is going to ever break. Eladamri's Vineyard was played because you could ramp yourself and there was a very decent chance that your opponent would just get shocked half the time, being unable to use the green mana. Now, there's no even potential upside to giving them mana. So barring a rules change, it's not likely to improve.

Telemin Performance could be a hilarious sideboard card against some decks, but even "creatureless" combo in Legacy tends to run a couple cards that are technically creatures (Spirit Guides, etc). You can't use it to mill yourself, either.

Gamekeeper already got what it needed, and that was Cabal Therapy. The Gamekeeper/Blightsteel Colossus deck could use a bit of love, but being able to continue the mill chain for free when you hit another Gamekeeper was exactly what the doctor ordered. I'm not sure that it's "missing" anything.

Shape Anew needs a truly busted non-creature artifact (since the Polymorph shell already exists and isn't too phenomenal). Something along the lines of Emrakul. Or, you could use it in a polymorph shell that runs creatures for defense or as a secondary plan, and use Shape Anew on manlands to get out a Blightsteel or something similar...kind of like a U Natural Order? Possessed Portal, perhaps?

Shifting Sky is the best of the lot. The potential for stupidity is really high with that. Too bad it doesn't hit lands, though :P

[Rush80]

Some of those are really cool finds...Sanity Grinding is a new one to me, but seems like it could be really baller if more heavy blue spells that maybe have alternate casting costs show up...but even then, Chroma's not going to count mana sources, so it's unlikely to mill more than say Mind Funeral would (just as an example at that casting cost).

I don't think Magus of the Vineyard is going to ever break. Eladamri's Vineyard was played because you could ramp yourself and there was a very decent chance that your opponent would just get shocked half the time, being unable to use the green mana. Now, there's no even potential upside to giving them mana. So barring a rules change, it's not likely to improve.

Telemin Performance could be a hilarious sideboard card against some decks, but even "creatureless" combo in Legacy tends to run a couple cards that are technically creatures (Spirit Guides, etc). You can't use it to mill yourself, either.

Gamekeeper already got what it needed, and that was Cabal Therapy. The Gamekeeper/Blightsteel Colossus deck could use a bit of love, but being able to continue the mill chain for free when you hit another Gamekeeper was exactly what the doctor ordered. I'm not sure that it's "missing" anything.

Shape Anew needs a truly busted non-creature artifact (since the Polymorph shell already exists and isn't too phenomenal). Something along the lines of Emrakul. Or, you could use it in a polymorph shell that runs creatures for defense or as a secondary plan, and use Shape Anew on manlands to get out a Blightsteel or something similar...kind of like a U Natural Order? Possessed Portal, perhaps?

Shifting Sky is the best of the lot. The potential for stupidity is really high with that. Too bad it doesn't hit lands, though :P


I throw in the list Telemin Performance in case Wizards prints an "Creatures extractor" card as { BBBBBBBB That's All Folks, Enchantment: You may pay 6 life and exile this Enchantment to search for all creatures in a opponent library and put in play under opponent control. Play this ability as a sorcery. }

Yes Shape Anew needs a game-ending artifact to be printed to shine.

[ahg113]

I have a soft spot for Descendants' Path. Finishing up an ::icky:: modern humans deck to abuse it. Descendants' Path + Mutavault seems legit. I have no experience with Turbo Eldrazi, but it seems like that's a small piece that could compliment that deck, if it needed it which I doubt, or they'd prolly be doing it.

IRT Telemin Performance - it's funny, it sometimes works, but not as much as it should. I used it as a wish target in Belcher to lose with style points against U/W Miracle decks. G1, it should always win. G2, I got a Meddling Mage out of it :(

Also a believer that Necrotic Ooze is underplayed some how. There is so much casual grave hate going around, and the best inefficient answer is probably Ground Seal, but Ooze can win games on the spot, split second aside.

I feel as though the reason a lot of these cards haven't been used in winning decks is the mana restriction. Either the cost is to high, or the limitation of use (such as Artificer's Intuition).

Something like Tortured Existence don't seem to have a home because there aren't many competitive decks that aren't considered "tight" where you have a creature in hand you'd rather throw away to the yard for another creature to come to hand. This is helpful with Madness creatures maybe? Or perhaps there is a value creature being played alongside a hosts of recur guys such as Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Nether Shadow, Vengevine, etc.

And for wild speculation - I think Enchantments are going to matter again relatively soon. In magic, not necessarily Legacy. Replenish was a beast of a card in the day, Humility is still a premium enchantment, and Serra's Sanctum is cheap considering the effect. Enchanted Evening looks very abusable. From the, destroy your enchantment/lands, to enchantment/plainswalkers- put disenchant on a scepter for profit? Throw in some rectors for good measure. And when the cost is clear, cast any number of body producing enchantments. Basically, I think Enchantress is gonna be tier sooner or later, because it's a design space they haven't pushed, because of because so.

[apple713]

Did I not? I mentioned a couple things but here are a few more...
Artificer's Intuition
beck&call
Worldly tutor
Cloudstone curio
Gifts ungiven
Intuition
Traumatize (targeting yourself)
Snapcaster mage (combo shell besides solidarity)
Pyromancers ascension
Regrowth
Heartbeat of spring
Reforge the soul
Goblin welder
The entire staxx package and archetype (give it either a bit more power and consistency and we get vintage)
Attunement
Recurring Nightmare
Past in flames
Stasis
Spoils of the vault
Helm of awakening
Gush
Warp World
Krak-clan ironworks and co
The newer affinity lists in vintage

many of these have already been maximized in their usage - recurring nightmare / helm of awakening / beck and call

some are banned like gush

I agree with you about stax shell

heartbeat of the spring is a lot like high tide
warp world is too mana intensive for serious deck
Traumatize is too mana intensive for its effect - You can accomplish something similar with glimpse the unthinkable- Maybe used in conjunction with Hunting grounds for the Threshold. If there was a creature that returned itself to your hand during your upkeep if its in the grave similar to squee but was worth cheating into play with hunting grounds.

gifts would probably never work out just because opponent chooses.
Intuition is similar to gifts, but unless your thinking of getting something like life from the loam wasteland and tranquil thickit package its got limited potential to be "broken". It;s a great card tho. I think its extremly undervalued.

The following have potential IMO

stasis
reforge the soul
artificers intution - just waiting for a combo piece to fetch - will fit extremly well with mox opals and the new legendary rule and tezzeret
past in flames was played with pyromancers asension, just not in legacy but this may be worth visiting

[apple713]

I have a soft spot for Descendants' Path. Finishing up an ::icky:: modern humans deck to abuse it. Descendants' Path + Mutavault seems legit. I have no experience with Turbo Eldrazi, but it seems like that's a small piece that could compliment that deck, if it needed it which I doubt, or they'd prolly be doing it.

IRT Telemin Performance - it's funny, it sometimes works, but not as much as it should. I used it as a wish target in Belcher to lose with style points against U/W Miracle decks. G1, it should always win. G2, I got a Meddling Mage out of it :(

Also a believer that Necrotic Ooze is underplayed some how. There is so much casual grave hate going around, and the best inefficient answer is probably Ground Seal, but Ooze can win games on the spot, split second aside.

I feel as though the reason a lot of these cards haven't been used in winning decks is the mana restriction. Either the cost is to high, or the limitation of use (such as Artificer's Intuition).

Something like Tortured Existence don't seem to have a home because there aren't many competitive decks that aren't considered "tight" where you have a creature in hand you'd rather throw away to the yard for another creature to come to hand. This is helpful with Madness creatures maybe? Or perhaps there is a value creature being played alongside a hosts of recur guys such as Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Nether Shadow, Vengevine, etc.

And for wild speculation - I think Enchantments are going to matter again relatively soon. In magic, not necessarily Legacy. Replenish was a beast of a card in the day, Humility is still a premium enchantment, and Serra's Sanctum is cheap considering the effect. Enchanted Evening looks very abusable. From the, destroy your enchantment/lands, to enchantment/plainswalkers- put disenchant on a scepter for profit? Throw in some rectors for good measure. And when the cost is clear, cast any number of body producing enchantments. Basically, I think Enchantress is gonna be tier sooner or later, because it's a design space they haven't pushed, because of because so.

replenish is the card like show and tell that only gets better with time. same with serra's sanctum. I should really pick these cards up. I dont know about enchantress being top tier but maybe if it gets the right mix of enchantments i could get there. I mean it has a great foundation. I think you've convinced me to up my game with enchantments. lots of enchantments get banned tho cause they are too good...Survival, earthcraft, oath of druids dream halls was a 1 point. yawgmoths bargain, necropotence...on and on

[Bed Decks Palyer]

On Replenish - if you're interested in Tress archetype, try the new one with blue for the Energy Field that packs RiP/Helm combo. I like it, it's really nice deck.

[Tammit67]

many of these have already been maximized in their usage - recurring nightmare / helm of awakening / beck and call

some are banned like gush

They have been used but they haven't dominated. Their effects are very powerful.

Where do you see something that is banned?


I agree with you about stax shell

heartbeat of the spring is a lot like high tideYeah although you can get some nice things like early harvest for a UG heartbeat of spring tide deck.

warp world is too mana intensive for serious deckOf course, but few decks can deal with a resolved one. And if one resolves there is a good chance you can just chain them with E witness. It is a pet card of mine even if it doesn't belong.

Traumatize is too mana intensive for its effect - You can accomplish something similar with glimpse the unthinkable- Maybe used in conjunction with Hunting grounds for the Threshold. If there was a creature that returned itself to your hand during your upkeep if its in the grave similar to squee but was worth cheating into play with hunting grounds.I'm envisioning a URx storm list that decks itself then flashes everything back with past in flames. Maybe high tide as the mana generation. Putting a ton of cards in the GY is a really strong effect and you might be able to build with Force instead of LED this way and end with tendrils. Certainly one of the more wild thoughts I've mentioned


gifts would probably never work out just because opponent chooses.
Intuition is similar to gifts, but unless your thinking of getting something like life from the loam wasteland and tranquil thickit package its got limited potential to be "broken". It;s a great card tho. I think its extremly undervalued.
If there is ever good enough cards that combo can go "Give me any combination of 2 from these 4 and I kill you" Kinda like vintage lists do, then gifts is bonkers. In vintage your opponent doesn't really get a choice and in fact you usually get to cast all 4 of those cards. The fact it gives 2 cards instead of 1 like intuition makes it stronger with a more powerful card pool

The following have potential IMO

stasis
reforge the soul
artificers intution - just waiting for a combo piece to fetch - will fit extremly well with mox opals and the new legendary rule and tezzeret
past in flames was played with pyromancers asension, just not in legacy but this may be worth visiting

In conjunction with Pyromancer's, I'd like to mention manamorphose is a really dumb card. Perhaps there exists some thought scour, probe, force, past in flames, rituals, manamorphose deck that is actually reasonable but it would take a lot to develop. the tools are there, the deathrite issue needs solving.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

In conjunction with Pyromancer's, I'd like to mention manamorphose is a really dumb card. Perhaps there exists some thought scour, probe, force, past in flames, rituals, manamorphose deck that is actually reasonable but it would take a lot to develop. the tools are there, the deathrite issue needs solving.

Just for the info - few years ago I met a guy on MWS who built an UR storm deck. Not only it was extremely Wasteland-rpoof, but it also won on turn3 without any trouble, even turn2 was doable, but if there was nothing that pressed you, why not play that one basic more and laugh at their $41.99 Wasteland? It used red and art. fast mana: LP, LED, RoF, Desp. Ritual, Seething Song/Pyretic Ritual (depends on what you fear more, Spell Snare or Spell Pierce), insane amounts of cantrips (BS, Ponder, Manamorphose, GP, Overmaster) and then it used Burning Wish for PiF, replay stuff, kill with Brain Freeze or Freeze yourself, replay even more stuff, kill with Bw->ToA.
The deck was sick, it had just one trouble. All the rites are worse than DRit. Also, Overmaster (and Pact of Neg.) was your only protection.

I don't think it's viable anymore, because DRS sucks and everyone plays Spell Pierce, otoh, I may build it just for the fun.

[Julian23]

The deck you're talking about UR(b) Past in Flames Brain Freeze Deck popularized by Caleb Durwald. It also used Empty the Warrens + Bushwacker post SB to get around graveyard hate.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The deck you're talking about UR(b) Past in Flames Brain Freeze Deck popularized by Caleb Durwald. It also used Empty the Warrens + Bushwacker post SB to get around graveyard hate.

Thanks for info, that'll be the deck!

[Deviruchi]

I would love to see a tier 1 deck with any of these cards:

Nether Void
Psychatog
Desolation
Spoils of the Vault

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would love to see a tier 1 deck with any of these cards:

Nether Void
Psychatog
Desolation
Spoils of the Vault

Desolation was my pet card... fifteen years ago. :-D
It would be interesting to see how it may work today. Turn1 Deathrite, turn2 Desolation might be very annoying for decks like RUG, controls, etc.

[apple713]

I would love to see a tier 1 deck with any of these cards:

Nether Void
Psychatog
Desolation
Spoils of the Vault

Nether Void should be top of the this topics discussion. It's powerful and has a unique ability. and can be built around. It's tutorable with enlightned tutor.

[(nameless one)]

B/G aggro Void featuring Deathrite Shaman (to fight other DRS), Abrupt Decay, and Great Sable Stag (or any uncounterable creatures)

Hell, Minotaur Void could be awesome. Theros Minotaurs, Vial/Didgeridoo, Cavern of Souls, Nether Void!


Mishra Stax in EDH is awesome too. Have Mishra and Nether Void onto the field together: you play regular Magic while everyone else can't.


Honestly though, it saddens me Land Tax + Scroll Rack isn't as powerful as it was a decade ago. Maybe if they print more Chains of Mephistopheles effects to abuse all other draw engines. But then you have Bob to fight that already.

[Greenpoe]

I feel Desolation could fit in some build of Pox or even Braids staxx. Dark Ritual, Cabal Minion, Sinkhole, Smallpox/Big pox, Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland, Rishidan Port, Trinisphere, Nether Void, Chalice...Somewhere in there is a deck. Now only if Black Vise were legal...

[TraxDaMax]

Every unplayable Johnny permanent was considered shit casual until Show and Tell. That red thing from Coldsnap was considered terrible until Griselbrand got printed and now you need just that one big demon in play to win the game with it. Blazing Shoal was considered unplayable until Infect creatures and 10+cc red AND green creatures.

The point is to find cards that break the rules, but require something that doesn't exist in the current card-pool to be good, let alone competitive, so we can more accurately scan through spoilers and get brewing as soon as something does show up.



I even heard that Lion's Eye Diamond was once considerd the worst card in Mirage.
I like the speculating although the suggestions in the openingpost are terrible in my opinion.

[apple713]

I feel Desolation could fit in some build of Pox or even Braids staxx. Dark Ritual, Cabal Minion, Sinkhole, Smallpox/Big pox, Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland, Rishidan Port, Trinisphere, Nether Void, Chalice...Somewhere in there is a deck. Now only if Black Vise were legal...

unfortunately black as a solitary color just doesnt get there. It doesnt have answers to artifact or enchantments. It has to be incorporated with another color. green white and blue provide excellent support for black.

[Grollub]

Abrupt Decay seems tailor made for Nether Void. It cannot be countered thus it still only cost 2 and on the flip side Nether Void cost 4 so your opponent can't decay it either.

A BG Nether Void deck could be fun. Choke in conjuction with Nether Void looks hilarious.

[apple713]

Abrupt Decay seems tailor made for Nether Void. It cannot be countered thus it still only cost 2 and on the flip side Nether Void cost 4 so your opponent can't decay it either.

A BG Nether Void deck could be fun. Choke in conjuction with Nether Void looks hilarious.


great sable stag
loxodon smiter
skylasher
Thrun, the last troll
abrupt decay
much further down on the list

volcanic fallout
urzas rage
wreak havock
supreme verdict


if you play white, void is tutorable. Great for combo protection. IDK how the deck would do vs aggro tho cause it seems like a very weak aggro deck? The other concern is nether void cost 4 which is about the time when combo decks have won by. not to mention that we can't make nether void uncounterable?

[Dice_Box]

Nether Void and Vexing Shusher?

[Kayradis]

I've been toying with the idea for about an hour now. Just checking all the uncounterable spells on the gatherer.
At this point, seems to be heading towards a junk build.
Nic Fit shell?

The fact that N.Void can be countered is shitty. But if we push the envellope and try something where OmniTell headed not too long ago it could be an area to be explore...

[Barook]

As far as uncounterable goes: Cavern of Souls and Vial?

[Kayradis]

Goblins splashing black or Merfolks splashing back.

At this point...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

A BG Nether Void deck could be fun. Choke in conjuction with Nether Void looks hilarious.

And Gloom.

[Grollub]

To be fair I think running uncounterable cards, just for running them for the synergy with Nether Void would be a bad idea. Most of them are fairly cost inefficient. I think controlish BG deck cards with Smallpox would be much stronger, Smallpox do everything you'd want from a card running Nether Void - discard, kill a land and creature. I'd start any Nether Void list with the following skeleton,

4 Smallpox
3 Nether Void
2 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland

and probably additional Sphere of Resistance.

If I were to splash any other color than green it'd be blue for various Intuition stacks - in particular Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage and Life from the Loam to end the game fast once you're in control.

[Finn]

In the spirit of the OP...

-I have been waiting and waiting for the environment to be right for Copy Artifact which is undercosted. Like for years, waiting.

-Carrionette: A cookie for anyone who knew that if the opponent pays the 2, you do not lose the Carrionette. A pecan pie if you knew that you can activate this ability, respond to it, and activate it again, and so on until you run out of mana. I have an entire table of tasty treats for you if you figured out that you can do all this, then respond with something like Tortured Existence to save Carrionette from itself if you were so inclined.

-Transmute Artifact: it is the cheapest of these kinds of tutors, but also it is capable of Entombing an artifact. Just don't pay the difference.

[Teluin]

Serra's Sanctum. Come on Theros!

[apple713]

Serra's Sanctum. Come on Theros!

Are you hoping that Sanctum will become the next tolarian academy?

Unfortunatly I dont beleive that is possible because artifact are so much more versatile than enchantments. Enchantments dont typically have activated abilities, let alone mana producing abilities like artifacts.

Sanctum is already pretty broken when you play it with enchantments

What i dont understand is why wizards shafted black and red when it came to Urzas lands. gaea's cradle in green, sanctum in white, academy in blue.... where is red and black?

Soulkeepers chamber
Legendary Land
add B to your mana pool equal to the total amount of life lost by all players this turn.

Coveteous Lair
Legendary Land
Add R to your mana pool equal to the total number of instant and sorcery spells cast this turn.

done... would it have been that hard wizards?

[evanmartyr]

Are you hoping that Sanctum will become the next tolarian academy?

Unfortunatly I dont beleive that is possible because artifact are so much more versatile than enchantments. Enchantments dont typically have activated abilities, let alone mana producing abilities like artifacts.

Sanctum is already pretty broken when you play it with enchantments

What i dont understand is why wizards shafted black and red when it came to Urzas lands. gaea's cradle in green, sanctum in white, academy in blue.... where is red and black?

Soulkeepers chamber
Legendary Land
add B to your mana pool equal to the total amount of life lost by all players this turn.

Coveteous Lair
Legendary Land
Add R to your mana pool equal to the total number of instant and sorcery spells cast this turn.

done... would it have been that hard wizards?

Yes, Wizards clearly understood the power level of the cards they were printing, and intentionally shafted Black and Red /rollseyes.

[ahg113]

@apple713- While I agree with your gripe, I disagree with your follow through. The mana source should be a known static quality. Something more like, number of cards in your graveyard - B, number of cards in your opponents graveyard - R. Under the premises, your used resources are still resources for black and the amount of destruction you cause your opponent (LD was a thing back then) is a fuel source for red.

But we're straying from the topic of real cards with potential instead of make believe cards.

Something like Lotleth Troll + Squee, Goblin Nabob + Tortured Existence seems legit and compact in theory, but what then? In those colors, it's B/G, so Pernicious Deed, Vengevine? It seems weak because there is a lot of casual graveyard hate. You could load up on disruption, some ramp maybe- but ramp to what with such a low initial curve? (Internal thought process for making something successful. Modern Necrotic Ooze deck was great in G1, all over the place, and then died horribly in G2 and G3, so Ooze wasn't broken.) Madness creatures, Dawnstrider, Fauna Shaman, Pack Rat, Trespasser il-Vec, the best critters I could figure that profit from discard.

[Tammit67]

Soulkeepers chamber
Legendary Land
add B to your mana pool equal to the total amount of life lost by all players this turn.

Coveteous Lair
Legendary Land
Add R to your mana pool equal to the total number of instant and sorcery spells cast this turn.


Well the red one is pretty obviously broken and the black one likely as well

[Teluin]

Are you hoping that Sanctum will become the next tolarian academy?

Unfortunatly I dont beleive that is possible because artifact are so much more versatile than enchantments. Enchantments dont typically have activated abilities, let alone mana producing abilities like artifacts.

Sanctum is already pretty broken when you play it with enchantments

I actually meant more in the line of Gaea's Cradle. With the possibility of enchantment creatures in Theros (who knows, right?), then it COULD happen. Maybe. Probably not... but maybe!

[Megadeus]

Well the red one is pretty obviously broken and the black one likely as well

The red one would be sweet in a storm deck. The black one seems like it would be alright but nothing busted.

[Tammit67]

The black one seems like it would be alright but nothing busted.

Seems really good with Ad nauseum or illusions of granduer. I'm sure I'm missing something better

[nedleeds]

The black one is a turn one or two win (plunge into darkness is the idiocy you are looking for). The red one is likely a turn 3 or 4 best ritual ever (besides the broken black Sanctum).

[Megadeus]

Seems really good with Ad nauseum or illusions of granduer. I'm sure I'm missing something better

Didnt realize it was all players. Alright that is enough to break it in half lol. Sometimes I am glad people on the source arent in R&D... Not that these cards wouldnt be super banned lol

[PirateKing]

Serra's Sanctum will only become broken once there are many useful 0 cost enchantments.

And I always figured that Cabal Coffers was the black land. While not from Urza and not without cost, it produces black based on something.
Then there is that shitty new card that does dead guys, but who cares.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It'll be nice to use Copy Artifact along some big artifatties like Sundering Titan and such. :-)

[Tammit67]

How could I have forgotten food chain and Defense of the Heart!?

4 noble hierarch
4 mulldrifter
4 tarmogoyf
4 Shardless agent
1 Aetherling
1 Trigon predator
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Aethersnipe
2 misthallow griffin
1 Fierce empath
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakyl, aeon's torn

4 Food chain
4 brainstorm
4 force of will

2 moorland haunt
or something

[apple713]

How could I have forgotten food chain and Defense of the Heart!?

4 noble hierarch
4 mulldrifter
4 tarmogoyf
4 Shardless agent
1 Aetherling
1 Trigon predator
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Aethersnipe
2 misthallow griffin
1 Fierce empath
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakyl, aeon's torn

4 Food chain
4 brainstorm
4 force of will

2 moorland haunt
or something

Food chain has a thread. It was broken and then got fixed with the banning of goblin recruiter. I enjoy food chain elves cause its backup plan is beatdown when you dont get foodchain.

defense of the heart is great, except not everyone plays with creatures. It's possible to give your opponent creatures via forbidden orchars and the 'hunted' creatures but at a cost of 4 it seems less effective than S&T, especially since it is situational and has a chance of being destroyed before its used. however it does win the game with a combo of kiki / pestermite or whatever.

[DragoFireheart]

Temporal Mastery.

[kusumoto]

Temporal Mastery.

Doubtful that will happen isn't it?

I mean it would take something pretty specific to make that thing worth it.

[DragoFireheart]

Doubtful that will happen isn't it?

I mean it would take something pretty specific to make that thing worth it.

It was a joke. Guess some forgot.

[Tammit67]

Food chain has a thread. It was broken and then got fixed with the banning of goblin recruiter. I enjoy food chain elves cause its backup plan is beatdown when you dont get foodchain.

Yeah I know it has a thread, its just the card screams broken to me still. One day!

[apple713]

Yeah I know it has a thread, its just the card screams broken to me still. One day!

it is if it sticks but you need that drake u can cast from exile.

card interactions are there, but the problem is that there hasnet been a combinaation of 60 to support it optimally.

[kingtk3]

food chain + misthollow griffin + Vela the Night-Clad = GG
It's not very hard to assemble since you can run manipulate fate and fierce empath in addition to brainstorm and ponder.

Food chain IS a deck.

[Tammit67]

food chain + misthollow griffin + Vela the Night-Clad = GG
It's not very hard to assemble since you can run manipulate fate and fierce empath in addition to brainstorm and ponder.

Food chain IS a deck.

One whose combo pieces aren't very good outside the combo :( That's the issue

[kingtk3]

There aren't many combo decks where the pieces are good outside the combo: for example Omniscence is useless if you don't have S&T or Dream Halls.

I'm not saying that food chain is Tier1 or stronger than Omnitell, but at least if you don't find food chain you can go in aggro mode (manipulate fate gives you a card and 3 3/3 flying at least)

[rufus]

There aren't many combo decks where the pieces are good outside the combo: for example Omniscence is useless if you don't have S&T or Dream Halls.

You can try silly stuff like Embargo+Puca's Mischief, but anything that's great on its own and has a good combo option is going to end up in the ban list.

[(nameless one)]

One whose combo pieces aren't very good outside the combo :( That's the issue

While Food Chain isn't blue, both Griffin and Vela can be pitched to Force of Will.

[apple713]

the card that needs to be broken is
devastating dreams

it can be cast off of cascade and wont kill the creature you end up with as a result of the cascade. It's great against combo / control decks for taking their lands and against other aggro decks for plowing their creatures.

[Megadeus]

the card that needs to be broken is
devastating dreams

it can be cast off of cascade and wont kill the creature you end up with as a result of the cascade. It's great against combo / control decks for taking their lands and against other aggro decks for plowing their creatures.

I play it in 4 color loam and it wins games. You really don't need to do anything cute with cascade to make it sick.

[apple713]

I play it in 4 color loam and it wins games. You really don't need to do anything cute with cascade to make it sick.

yes but loam doesnt typically do well in general. I feel like the card needs something else to make it awesome


maybe it needs to use multiple dream like cards from torment.

[Megadeus]

Loam does fine. Hoogland wins with his deck. Lands finished 7-1 last week in the legacy portion of the invitational. Hoogland went 6-1-1. Loam can easily over power dRS

[Shawon]

Spoils of the Vault is just sitting in the crap rare bin, waiting for the time to finally be abused. I don't think it saw any Legacy play other than being in Belcher... BUT I did come across a Smallpox deck that ran a Spoils. Weird.

[apple713]

Spoils of the Vault is just sitting in the crap rare bin, waiting for the time to finally be abused. I don't think it saw any Legacy play other than being in Belcher... BUT I did come across a Smallpox deck that ran a Spoils. Weird.

i feel ya on that one.... the issue is tho that you can either name a card that is not in your deck and exile your library and loose all your life, or you can gamble on getting a card somewhere in the middle. because you cant control the life lost or position cards in your deck, its not really reliable for anything. unless you have lich in play or maybe lich's mirror?

[FTW]

I am wondering about cards (Legacy playable) which have minimal use in Legacy nowadays but people feel they have a great potential if and when additional cards are printed.

I suggest to have a Thread about this topic if it has not been address yet.

Phage the Untouchable


Alright, here's my crack at a tier 3 LOLPHAGE deck:


//Manas: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

//Lock Pieces: 16
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Torpor Orb

//Engine: 12
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

//Creatures: 11
3 Phage the Untouchable
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


Basically the idea is to get superfast red mana and Sneak Attack/Through the Breach Phage with a Torpor Orb in play and make the opponent lose the game on impact. Because this is so unreliable, rather than adding combo pieces to find it, I've just shoved in more reliable Sneak Attack creatures and an 8moon disruptive shell. But you can randomly win games with Torpor Orb + Sneak Attack + Phage.

EDIT: Or, instead of playing this pile, why not just play Torpor Orb in a UR SneakShow deck and cram in some Phages? FoW, good cantripping, Intuition. What's great is that a lot of Show and Tell hate involves creatures with ETB abilities (Angel of Despair, Gilded Drake, etc.) and Torpor Orb conveniently shuts them off, making your own Show and Tells that much more powerful and hosing a bunch of other decks.

[Megadeus]

Alright, here's my crack at a tier 3 LOLPHAGE deck:


//Manas: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

//Lock Pieces: 16
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Torpor Orb

//Engine: 12
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

//Creatures: 11
3 Phage the Untouchable
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


Basically the idea is to get superfast red mana and Sneak Attack/Through the Breach Phage with a Torpor Orb in play and make the opponent lose the game on impact. Because this is so unreliable, rather than adding combo pieces to find it, I've just shoved in more reliable Sneak Attack creatures and an 8moon disruptive shell. But you can randomly win games with Torpor Orb + Sneak Attack + Phage.
That's worse than just randomly winning with annihilator 6 + 15 damage...

[FTW]

That's worse than just randomly winning with annihilator 6 + 15 damage...

Of course. I didn't say it was good. I was just attempting to use one of the cards on the list. They're all jank, what do you expect?

That said, Torpor Orb has benefits in UR SneakShow for shutting off hate...

[Ereinion]

Transcendence + Sulfuric Vortex = a lock if I am reading correctly.

[FTW]

Transcendence + Sulfuric Vortex = a lock if I am reading correctly.

I think you forgot to read the upper right corners.

[(nameless one)]

I have a reason to believe Cataclysm can be broken.

If you resolve it against swarm aggro,midrange, and control you're going to be ahead.

It doesn't just deal with creature swarm, it also deals with lands! That's great against midrange and control.

The only thing I see bad with it is how do you build around it? I know it's a sideboard card in Death and Taxes. Land Tax control deck seems like the place for it. If it resolves, save your Land Tax, Scroll Rack, a land and Thalia and you're gonna be ahead. Did I mention its also a Wrath effect against planeswalkers? If you can resolve it though a Jace deck.

[nedleeds]

Of course. I didn't say it was good. I was just attempting to use one of the cards on the list. They're all jank, what do you expect?

That said, Torpor Orb has benefits in UR SneakShow for shutting off hate...

I'm no semi-pro but you might want to reread Phage. I don't think Sneaking her in is a hot idea.

EDIT: you were joking about playing her with Orb.

That's awful.

[FTW]

I'm no semi-pro but you might want to reread Phage. I don't think Sneaking her in is a hot idea.

EDIT: you were joking about playing her with Orb.

That's awful.

While it's not viable in a competitive deck, if I'm not mistaken, Torpor Orb does dodge Phage's ETB "lose the game" triggered ability while still allowing her other 2 abilities to trigger.

She is technically the only single creature that is a 1-hit kill off Sneak Attack/Through the Breach if opponent has 16+life, which is somewhat bragging rights even if difficult to assemble.

Although Annihilator 6 and draw 21 come pretty close to "I Win"...

[(nameless one)]

Why not just use Blightsteel Colossus? If he hits without getting block, you also win the game.

[Lurker101]

Shouldn't Goblin Game be banned? I feel like it suffers from Shaharazad Syndrome.
Kind of off topic but that's always confused me too. It's a strange clunky subgame card that just wastes time.

[Lord Seth]

Kind of off topic but that's always confused me too. It's a strange clunky subgame card that just wastes time.
I don't see how it's confusing Goblin Game isn't banned. Even ignoring the fact you can easily shortcut it by just writing down numbers and revealing them, the card costs 7 mana. It's downright unplayable in Legacy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why not just use Blightsteel Colossus? If he hits without getting block, you also win the game.

Because the task was to break Phage, not BSC... :smile:

[FTW]

Why not just use Blightsteel Colossus? If he hits without getting block, you also win the game.

Because that is not a "yet to be broken" card :)

EDIT: slow-ninjad

[apple713]

I wonder if anyone is sitting on a stack of Illusionary masks waiting for them to be broken.... Anyone?

[bjholmes3]

The only thing broken about that card is how much sense it makes.

[Lord Seth]

The only real usage I can think of for Illusionary Mask is for bypassing enter-the-battlefield triggers, and if you wanted that you could instead play Torpor Orb, as it's far easier to get and can sometimes hurt your opponent (Stoneforges are a lot less scary without tutoring).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The only real usage I can think of for Illusionary Mask is for bypassing enter-the-battlefield triggers, and if you wanted that you could instead play Torpor Orb, as it's far easier to get and can sometimes hurt your opponent (Stoneforges are a lot less scary without tutoring).

Otoh, it's much more funny than Orb. I'd play it so that I may:
- tap some lands to add :2:
- cast the Illusionary Mask with a very serious face
- ask the opponent "Ok?" with even more serious face
- lean back in a chair after it resolves
- pass the card to the opponent when he begs to read it
- answer "I don't know" when he asks what the card does.

[bruizar]

Clockspinning

[HammafistRoob]

Ancestral Recall

[Kayradis]

"Ach! Hans, Run!"

[UnderwaterGuy]

I wonder if anyone is sitting on a stack of Illusionary masks waiting for them to be broken.... Anyone?

Possibly, it is a very expensive card.

I don't think we can expect to see anything more powerful than Phyrexian Dreadnought that works with it though. It's just a repeatable Stifle in most decks.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Will creatures put into play with Illusionary Mask trigger morph abilities when turned face up?

[Octopusman]

chaos;752505']Will creatures put into play with Illusionary Mask trigger morph abilities when turned face up?

They will.

I tried to make a mask-naught deck in Legacy. I used the fathom seer with it. It was 'aight. Only problem is that you can still counterspell a creature "cast" off of the mask. Unfortunately, it's not similar to aether vial.

[thefreakaccident]

Something that has yet to happen, despite all of the preeching that I have done...


Curfew in Goblins.

I'm not kidding, it is nothing less than an overall improvement to the deck itself.

[DragoFireheart]

Mountain Goat.

[thefreakaccident]

Digeridoo will get overpowered Minataurs to rain on your parade friend.


Can you imagine if they actually made thunderbluff a real thing, essentially being a crazy tribal dragon stompy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Something that has yet to happen, despite all of the preeching that I have done...


Curfew in Goblins.

I'm not kidding, it is nothing less than an overall improvement to the deck itself.

I am hard pressed to think of a time in Legacy's history when it was a worse idea to play Curfew.

[thefreakaccident]

I am hard pressed to think of a time in Legacy's history when it was a worse idea to play Curfew.

Yeah, opposing cip abilities kind of change things a bit nowadays, there was a time, during the flavorless goyf period where that was true though.

[Julian23]

I can't believe that a search in this thread for "Contamination" yielded zero results. I see that with the rise of omnipresence of DRS the card lost some of its power but it's still incredibly powerful.

[Asthereal]

Volrath's Shapeshifter + Phage the Untouchable is pretty funny.
Sure you don't block my Shifter? :smile:

By the way, another card that still needs to be broken is of course Fecundity.
Back in 2002 I had a silly deck with Goblin Bombardement and many cheap guys, but I'm sure there's a better way.

[Dice_Box]

I can't believe that a search in this thread for "Contamination" yielded zero results. I see that with the rise of omnipresence of DRS the card lost some of its power but it's still incredibly powerful.The black Moon that hits basics? No how can that be waiting to be broken in half?

[Julian23]

Volrath's Shapeshifter + Phage the Untouchable is pretty funny.
Sure you don't block my Shifter? :smile:

Also known as FEB - Full English Breakfast. It used Survival of the Fittest. The fun part was that you would attack with it as an Akroma, then change it into Phage after no blocks.

[thefreakaccident]

Doran the siege tower turning deathrites into something that can also turn sideways, as well as making goyfs bigger? Hmm, it also beefs stoneforge and spellskites.

[GoblinZ]

I wish Forcefield could be playable someday, I once saw one forcefield in the sb of an imperial painter deck this year.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Storm Seeker
I just bought a Legends one.
also, I¨d love if something slly happens and they - whomever "they" are - make that "Ancient" or "Kindergarten" format of ABU-Weatherlight and I'd play anything with Maro+WOrb.

[LeoCop 90]

Wouldn't Contamination be devastating in a deck like zombardment that can recur creatures from his graveyard? I didn't know this card existed and i'm wondering why no one plays it. It seems a powerhouse to me.

[Zupponn]

2 cards that I've always liked were Dwarven Recruiter and Bloodchief Ascension.

[Myelectronicdays]

I wish Forcefield could be playable someday,

amen to this.. still one of my fav cards.

[Fatal]

Contamination has two big difference between Blood Moon:

1) It is conditional
2) It has to be sacrificed when condition isn't met

Look how Blood Moon works:

2R on start -> Only basics works - Opponent can't do anything except enchantment removal and basics.

now compare it to Contamination:

2B on start -> it dies in upkeep - so it require setup - but on the other side it works also vs basics.

Scenario:

1) You use swamp and cast Gravecrawler on turn 1.
2) Opponent leave open mana and pass.
3) You have Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and cast Contamination on turn 2 - In resp opponent kill your gravecrawler - now you just lose contamination since you won't cast it before next upkeep.

[apple713]

Door to Nothingness anyone know how to make this work? Theres no way to cheat an activation cost is there? I love the card and its artwork just can't imagine getting 10 mana in a legit fashion.

on a separate note

enduring renewal might be work looking into again.

[Hopo]

Door to Nothingness anyone know how to make this work? Theres no way to cheat an activation cost is there? I love the card and its artwork just can't imagine getting 10 mana in a legit fashion.


There's always Tooth and Nail into two Composite Golems.

EDIT: which is absolutely worthless, legacy-wise.

[Richard Cheese]

2 cards that I've always liked were Dwarven Recruiter and Bloodchief Ascension.

Hmm, maybe use Recruiter in a terrible Painter-style deck with Charbelcher as the win?

Personally, I still want to find a good deck to put Grisly Salvage in.

[Madmaniac21]

Personally, I still want to find a good deck to put Grisly Salvage in.

Lands, no?

[Richard Cheese]

Lands, no?

I guess, I want something more aggressive. I've seen it being used in Eva Green, but I'm not sure how competitive that deck is these days. I tried it in a Junk deck with all kinds of synergies, but it was unfair decks day so I promptly lost to everything and binned the idea.

[rufus]

I guess, I want something more aggressive. I've seen it being used in Eva Green, but I'm not sure how competitive that deck is these days. I tried it in a Junk deck with all kinds of synergies, but it was unfair decks day so I promptly lost to everything and binned the idea.

Zombies
Ghoul Tree
GBW reanimator with Loyal Retainer and Pulsemage Advocate

[troopatroop]

Wild Nacatl


lol srsly tho wtf

[boneclub24]

Wild Nacatl


lol srsly tho wtf

Zoo ain't good no more, yo.

[BVB09]

Zombies
Ghoul Tree
GBW reanimator with Loyal Retainer and Pulsemage Advocate

Ghoultree would be nice if Survival wasn't banned, what a shame:frown:

[Zupponn]

Hmm, maybe use Recruiter in a terrible Painter-style deck with Charbelcher as the win?

That's the only idea I've been able to come up with. The only problem is that even with Changelings dwarves mostly suck.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I feel like there has to be something broken to be done with Heartless Summoning. And now we have Commune with the Gods to help (dig for the Heartless Summoning and put a Myr Retriever into the yard, perhaps).

[troopatroop]

Zoo ain't good no more, yo.

Exactly, and Wild Nacatl is still an incredible magic card. It can be played outside of just Naya you know...

[TsumiBand]

I feel like there has to be something broken to be done with Heartless Summoning. And now we have Commune with the Gods to help (dig for the Heartless Summoning and put a Myr Retriever into the yard, perhaps).

I was just talking about this jank at work with a friend.

It was between breaks and we were half-assing it a little but we decided that Disciple of Bolas + Wall of Blood + Heartless Summoning = 1BB: draw 19-or-so cards, and that this was somehow okay if we played Priest of Gix and Soul Spike too. Hyper combo finish!

Yeah, no, probably not. Disciple + Heartless Summoning is randomly funny with things like Corpse Dance or Footsteps of the Goryo though.

Yeah no this deck is terrible. /wrists

[GoblinSettler]

I was just talking about this jank at work with a friend.

It was between breaks and we were half-assing it a little but we decided that Disciple of Bolas + Wall of Blood + Heartless Summoning = 1BB: draw 19-or-so cards, and that this was somehow okay if we played Priest of Gix and Soul Spike too. Hyper combo finish!

Yeah, no, probably not. Disciple + Heartless Summoning is randomly funny with things like Corpse Dance or Footsteps of the Goryo though.

Yeah no this deck is terrible. /wrists

I like goblins too much to only play them in legit lists like Vial Goblins. One of the janky offshoots was Heartless Summoning Goblins.

The fun part is Heartless Summoning with Settler and Gardener.

8sinkholes.dec

[Erdvermampfa]

Training Grounds

[CaptainTwiddle]

I was just talking about this jank at work with a friend.

It was between breaks and we were half-assing it a little but we decided that Disciple of Bolas + Wall of Blood + Heartless Summoning = 1BB: draw 19-or-so cards, and that this was somehow okay if we played Priest of Gix and Soul Spike too. Hyper combo finish!

Yeah, no, probably not. Disciple + Heartless Summoning is randomly funny with things like Corpse Dance or Footsteps of the Goryo though.

Yeah no this deck is terrible. /wrists

I fully believe that Heartless Summoning will be a legit Legacy card EVENTUALLY. If nothing else, once enough worthwhile artifact creatures that cost 2 or less are printed there is potential with Glimpse of Nature or something like Vedalken Archmage. Otherwise, I could see a deck that perhaps contains some sort of a hard combo with HS, but primarily just uses it to accelerate out large, powerful creatures. In general, Legacy decks aren't well suited to handle 5/5s and larger. I mean, as is, you can use Heartless Summoning on turn 1 (via Mox, Petal, etc.) to power out turn 2 Grand Architect and Treasure Mage, which leads to a Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite.

[Shawon]

Heartless Summoning + Grinning Ignus?

[boneclub24]

Exactly, and Wild Nacatl is still an incredible magic card. It can be played outside of just Naya you know...

I'd feel like I were cheating on Zoo if I played her anywhere else.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Heartless Summoning + Grinning Ignus?

This isn't really a combo. With Heartless Summoning on board, you end up paying R for Grinning Ignus and R to activate it to get 2R. So, while you net one colorless mana, you're going to run out of red.

[Holly]

[card]Skyshroud Elf[/cards] fixes that problem !
You only need an Anthem effect so he won't die.. voilá 4card combo in 4 colors to make infinite red mana ..yeah !

I'd could see Heartless Summoning in a Demon Stompy shell to power out some cc4 6/6 demons.. but then again sol lands do the same..

[AngryTroll]

Personally, I still want to find a good deck to put Grisly Salvage in.

I keep wanting to put Grisly Salvage alongside Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay and Ghastly Demise, and maybe even Werebear. The deck starts building itself, but don't know how to actually end up with a working deck from this pile of awesome ideas.

Between Grisly Salvage and Commune with the Gods, I'd love to build an Evershrike deck. It dodges Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt! A 6/4 flier for 1BB at instant speed isn't terrible...but it's not so hot if you spend turn two setting it up and turn three doing it.

[zulander]

Volrath's Shapeshifter + Phage the Untouchable is pretty funny.
Sure you don't block my Shifter? :smile:

By the way, another card that still needs to be broken is of course Fecundity.
Back in 2002 I had a silly deck with Goblin Bombardement and many cheap guys, but I'm sure there's a better way.

Fecundity + Krark-Clan Ironworks + Myr Retriever = draw whole deck.

[Finn]

I am playing Metalworker and Staff of Domination right now in something that smells like part 12-Post, part MUD. There's an Emrakul and a Karakas in there somewhere, so...
Unlimited mana. Check.
Unlimited cards. Check.
Unlimited turns. Check.

[Zupponn]

Heartless Summoning + Myr Retreiver + Myr Retreiver = Grapeshot you for a million.

[NilsH]

Doran the siege tower turning deathrites into something that can also turn sideways, as well as making goyfs bigger? Hmm, it also beefs stoneforge and spellskites.

I've been playing Doran, Spellskites, DRS and Sygg, River Cutthroat(!) in Modern. It's good :wink:

[zulander]

I've been playing Doran, Spellskites, DRS and Sygg, River Cutthroat(!) in Modern. It's good :wink:

There's a Golden Wish Doran Rock deck that's hilarious. It plays 4 treefolk harbinger and 4 Skincutter. Lulz.

[apple713]

Hecatomb

so much potential. maybe with stifle...?

Zur's Weirding with a small amount of life gain could defiantly lock your opponent out.

There area bunch of busted cumulative upkeep cards that can be abused with the following.


thrull parasite
power conduit
Chisei, Heart of Oceans

[Megadeus]

Hecatomb

so much potential. maybe with stifle...?

Zur's Weirding with a small amount of life gain could defiantly lock your opponent out.

I liked Adrian SUllivans reasoning for weirding in the SB of some blue decks for combo MUs. Against them your life total is irrelevant, and you can just basically stop them from ever drawing anything that they could use to kill you

[apple713]

I liked Adrian SUllivans reasoning for weirding in the SB of some blue decks for combo MUs. Against them your life total is irrelevant, and you can just basically stop them from ever drawing anything that they could use to kill you

well most combo decks only have a handful of enablers much fewer than you have life so its good. I just figured it could be a good control card in general.

[Megadeus]

Well you do have to remember that it is not one sided. I mean I guess you could play it as like a 4 mana standstill... Get ahead on board with creatures or pressure and force your opponent to not be able to stop you. But I think in general it is better used as a combo card. Or maybe a Blue Stax card vs combo or something

[apple713]

Well you do have to remember that it is not one sided. I mean I guess you could play it as like a 4 mana standstill... Get ahead on board with creatures or pressure and force your opponent to not be able to stop you. But I think in general it is better used as a combo card. Or maybe a Blue Stax card vs combo or something

what do you combo it with?

[Kich867]

Reassembling Skeleton -- Someone brought Contamination up earlier, this card is ideal in my opinion. The ruling on contamination states that you can choose to sac a creature upon resolution, so even if he's in your graveyard you can simply return him to play with the trigger on the stack and then let him die.

Also, I just really want to see a deck play Reassembling Skeleton, I have so many ideas to see him played (like Junk Loam with Therapies and Lingering Souls and Wurm Harvest).

[TsumiBand]

Reassembling Skeleton -- Someone brought Contamination up earlier, this card is ideal in my opinion. The ruling on contamination states that you can choose to sac a creature upon resolution, so even if he's in your graveyard you can simply return him to play with the trigger on the stack and then let him die.

Also, I just really want to see a deck play Reassembling Skeleton, I have so many ideas to see him played (like Junk Loam with Therapies and Lingering Souls and Wurm Harvest).

Good call.

There's a couple of annoying dudes that'd work with Contamination, along the lines of Reassembling Skeleton. Tenacious Dead, Gravecrawler (plus the requisite Zombie friend), Undead Gladiator, to name a couple off the top of my head. Maybe Ichorid if you're desperate. Bloodghast? Hmmm.

[apple713]

Good call.

There's a couple of annoying dudes that'd work with Contamination, along the lines of Reassembling Skeleton. Tenacious Dead, Gravecrawler (plus the requisite Zombie friend), Undead Gladiator, to name a couple off the top of my head. Maybe Ichorid if you're desperate. Bloodghast? Hmmm.

i think the ideal creature is nether spirit combined with entomb

the problem is that you can't rely on a strategy of a cards that can only be a 4 of in the deck. Maybe if you also ran enlightened tutor.

[somethingdotdotdot]

How about heartless summoning with food chain? Food chains already a deck with a lot of 2X mana cost cost creatures that are have some cantrip ability tied to them. Food chain lets you go off; heartless summoning lets you reduce the mana costs to find the food chain with your cantrip creatures.

[TsumiBand]

How about heartless summoning with food chain? Food chains already a deck with a lot of 2X mana cost cost creatures that are have some cantrip ability tied to them. Food chain lets you go off; heartless summoning lets you reduce the mana costs to find the food chain with your cantrip creatures.

I wonder if UG might not be the stronger call, though. Dormant Sliver for a multiplicative effect, and could be played with the handful of Clones that are okay enough to be played to draw the whole deck. Shit it'd even be 'good' with Beck // Call, if you have the non-Food Chain mana (creatures only :( :( )to cast the Beck part.

EDIT: LOL you can even win the turn you 'go off' with Reflex Sliver. Oh bad budget brew. This sounds awesome. Why have we been playing White in this deck at all?? What a load of fail

[Rizso]

Dust Bowl is pretty sweet land that isnt seeing play or very little and has a very strong ability. Been looking at both dust bowl and flagstones for a while now.

[Megadeus]

Dust Bowl is pretty sweet land that isnt seeing play or very little and has a very strong ability. Been looking at both dust bowl and flagstones for a while now.

Pretty sure Esperblade for a short time ran dust bowl as a 1 of. It was pretty cool

[apple713]

stronghold gambit This should be under watch IMO being in the colors of Sneak and show. There are a few match ups that don't play ant creatures so it would be a free added threat. Not sure how much it would actually benefit without some serious testing. Thoughts?

[Scott]

stronghold gambit This should be under watch IMO being in the colors of Sneak and show. There are a few match ups that don't play ant creatures so it would be a free added threat. Not sure how much it would actually benefit without some serious testing. Thoughts?

I read a Michael Keller article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52596/the-cutting-room-floor-the-shining) a while ago about a Stronghold Gambit brew of his.

[Lord Seth]

stronghold gambit This should be under watch IMO being in the colors of Sneak and show. There are a few match ups that don't play ant creatures so it would be a free added threat. Not sure how much it would actually benefit without some serious testing. Thoughts?
It seems kinda dubious. For creatures that cost 1-2 mana you might as well just cast them, and if the creature costs 3+ mana you're taking some risks that your opponent won't just have a cheaper creature to plop into play. Even assuming the opponent doesn't, you're using up a card just to save yourself a few mana. There's a reason ritual effects are pretty much just limited to Storm decks.

The only way I can see the card getting broken in any way is if they print something like Phyrexian Dreadnought where the drawback occurs when you cast it rather than when it comes into play.

[apple713]

It seems kinda dubious. For creatures that cost 1-2 mana you might as well just cast them, and if the creature costs 3+ mana you're taking some risks that your opponent won't just have a cheaper creature to plop into play. Even assuming the opponent doesn't, you're using up a card just to save yourself a few mana. There's a reason ritual effects are pretty much just limited to Storm decks.

The only way I can see the card getting broken in any way is if they print something like Phyrexian Dreadnought where the drawback occurs when you cast it rather than when it comes into play.

maybe if you play discard heavy and use creatures like emrakul.



I read a Michael Keller article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52596/the-cutting-room-floor-the-shining) a while ago about a Stronghold Gambit brew of his.

This was a good article. It recommends playing discard heavy also.

[SirTylerGalt]

maybe if you play discard heavy and use creatures like emrakul.




This was a good article. It recommends playing discard heavy also.

Caleb Durward also streamed MTGO games a few weeks ago playing B/R Sneak Attack / Reanimator, featuring 2 Stronghold Gambit in the SB.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-sneak-and-breach/

[thefreakaccident]

Gilded Drake

[Finn]

The backup card you want with Contamination is Bitterblossom. It makes the deck immune to grave hate and has the added benefit of being awesome.

[-Spooky-]

The backup card you want with Contamination is Bitterblossom. It makes the deck immune to grave hate and has the added benefit of being awesome.

At one point I ran a contamination deck with Creakwood Liege alongside the blossom. He makes guys for you to sac and also pumps your blossom tokens.

[MaximumC]

I saw this:


Reassembling Skeleton -- Someone brought Contamination up earlier, this card is ideal in my opinion. The ruling on contamination states that you can choose to sac a creature upon resolution, so even if he's in your graveyard you can simply return him to play with the trigger on the stack and then let him die.

Also, I just really want to see a deck play Reassembling Skeleton, I have so many ideas to see him played (like Junk Loam with Therapies and Lingering Souls and Wurm Harvest).

And came here to post this:


The backup card you want with Contamination is Bitterblossom. It makes the deck immune to grave hate and has the added benefit of being awesome.

But was beaten to it!

Basically Reassembling Skeleton suffers from the same fate that a TON of the cards in this thread do, namely, the tactical avenue they abuse is better abused by something else. Skeleton is an awesome card, and bringing a creature back as much as you want for 1B is a good ability. Problem is, if you're looking for sacfood, then Bitterblossom just does it better. Gravecrawler too, probably.

For most of the cards in this thread, try this out: make the best deck you can with the card. Then, ask yourself whether you would be better off swapping out the card in question with a more frequently played card in Legacy. So, for example, say you make a deck with Stronghold Gambit and discard effects. Once you're done tuning, you stop and ask yourself: would I be better off with Show and Tell, Natural Order, or Sneak Attack? There are certainly reasons to avoid each ("I dont want to play blue," for example) but be honest in your testing and you'll probably find these choices accomplish what you're after -- cheat'n the fatties -- better than your original choice.

Things get real for these "also rans" when there is a deck where those cards really do work better. So, for example, say they printed this:

Stronghold Support
Artifact, 1
If a player would reveal his or her hand, that player instead reveals his or her hand and discards all cards with a casting cost of 8 or greater.

This would be a very reasonable printing to hose Sneak/Show type builds, and would make Stronghold gambit very powerful with 7-cc creatures as a way to destroy decks relying on Grislebrand, Omniscience, and Emrakul.

So, basically: pick up cards in this thread because they are all dirt cheap now, but don't play them until you find the new printing or interaction that makes them better than alternatives. It can happen (remember Shallow Grave?) It will happen. And old cards going from crap to awesome is one of the coolest things about this game.

[Cire]

Stronghold Gambit looks great actually - just run a lot of discard and a big costed card.


4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Emrakul
4 Progentius
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Despise
4 Stronghold Gambit
4 Show & Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
2 Daze
2 Ostracize

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 U/R Fetch Land

Edit - actually I would remove Emrakul just for plays like --> Turn 1 land -->Probe see if they have creatures OH, they have Emrakul only since its a S&T deck --> Petal -->Gambit -->Jin-Git --> WIN!)

Actually what would be the best 7 mana creatures so the above play can occur against Grizelbrand?

Simic Sky Swallower?
Sire of Insanity?

[LeoCop 90]

Orcish Lumberjack

It always seemed fantastic to me. I can't imagine there is not a way to abuse 5 mana on turn 2. Suggestions ?

[menace13]

Orcish Lumberjack

Suggestions ?

1. Throw them away
2. ???
3. Profit

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played them. It was funny with lands destruction and hasty creatures like Ball Lightning and Yavimaya Ants.

[Erdvermampfa]

What about Patron Wizard? Has anyone got some experience playing that card?

[SirTylerGalt]

What about Patron Wizard? Has anyone got some experience playing that card?

Here it is with the "" tags for other people who don't know what it does: [cards]Patron Wizard

[bruizar]

stronghold gambit This should be under watch IMO being in the colors of Sneak and show. There are a few match ups that don't play ant creatures so it would be a free added threat. Not sure how much it would actually benefit without some serious testing. Thoughts?

been sitting on foil gambits for 2 years now. It will jump in price eventually.

[Cire]

What about Patron Wizard? Has anyone got some experience playing that card?

Possible Mono Blue Devotion Wizards?

4 TNN
4 Cursecatcher
2 Patron Wizard
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Master of Waves
2 Thassa, God of the Sea

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensies Diving Top

4 Spellpierce
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

20 Islands

[Lord Seth]

Tribal Wizards is not particularly impressive. It wasn't that great even before a lot of anti-counter stuff (Cavern of Souls, Supreme Verdict, Abrupt Decay) came along.

[Erdvermampfa]

Then what about Aphetto Alchemist + Arcanis the Omnipotent to draw a huge number of cardz?

[UnderwaterGuy]

Then what about Aphetto Alchemist + Arcanis the Omnipotent to draw a huge number of cardz?

How do you get Arcanis into play though?

[Erdvermampfa]

How do you get Arcanis into play though?

How about Apprentice Wizard?

[kiblast]

Apprentice Wizard to fuel Aphetto Alchemist and Arcanis… Yeah it sounds totally broken.

[apple713]

Necrologia should be on the watch as well because its a 1 time bargain for 5 mana. slightly limited but still seemingly OP.

[Hopo]

Necrologia should be on the watch as well because its a 1 time bargain for 5 mana. slightly limited but still seemingly OP.

Necrologia basically became obsolete when Ad Nauseam was introduced. It does everything worse than Ad and wasn't even on the radar before that.

[kiblast]

Argivian Find should be played somewhere. It's not even card disadvantage, instant speed, recycles EE and other goodies.

[thefreakaccident]

Desert is actually pretty sick vs 1/1s. I just rediscovered this playing lands vs DnT. My opponent could not attack with his flickerwisps, nor his thalia, AND he had mother of runes active. Pretty good if you ask me, considering nobody plays it.


Desert coincidentally also happens to be another way of activating veteran explorer.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not gonna read through this whole thread but it might have been mentioned.

One card that used to see play but fell out of favor is Skeletal Scrying.

It was a great singleton in control and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see it show up again at some point.

[apple713]

Not gonna read through this whole thread but it might have been mentioned.

One card that used to see play but fell out of favor is Skeletal Scrying.

It was a great singleton in control and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see it show up again at some point.

that card is terrible... it has too many restrictions and its already worse than many other options seen in blue. necrologia is gonna be better almost 100% of the time for x=4 and ambition's cost is your x=3 sign in blood is your x=2

[TsumiBand]

Skeletal Scrying used to be pretty cool, but yeah unfortunately things that are arguably better/easier to cast have since come along and are not really played much. Though it did used to be one of my favorite parts of Esper Angel Stompy (not that it was called that; this was for-balls-ever ago). Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy, Skeletal Scrying, and of course, ye old Exalted Angel. That girl needs more time in the sun.

I still feel like with all the SFM and equipment madness of the last couple years, the Phantom creatures from Judgment would be fun to play with. Of course now I think TNN probably just does everything they do and more, but whatever :( Just want to pop a sucker in the mouth with Phantom Centaur + Moldervine Cloak. Fuck all naysayers. 8BlastCentaur.dec, coming to an Arby's near you.

Every free or "cheap-as-free" spell with Flashback + Quiet Speculation. Is Quiet Spec broken yet? I heard people said it was good with that 2/1 for 1R that makes dudes, but I haven't heard anything about that lately. Even if it is not regarded as amazing yet, still seems like Quiet Spec is just lurking waiting for Flashback to be rehashed too many times.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played Phantom Centaur with Armadillo Cloak in 7thEd./INV-9thEd./TSP Extended. It was pretty.

[Julian23]

Every free or "cheap-as-free" spell with Flashback + Quiet Speculation. Is Quiet Spec broken yet? I heard people said it was good with that 2/1 for 1R that makes dudes, but I haven't heard anything about that lately. Even if it is not regarded as amazing yet, still seems like Quiet Spec is just lurking waiting for Flashback to be rehashed too many times.

Will Lava Dart make its long-awaited comeback and once again revolutionize the metagame? :eek:

[dontbiteitholmes]

Will Lava Dart make its long-awaited comeback and once again revolutionize the metagame? :eek:

Used to be you couldn't mention that card without causing a shitstorm.

I used to love it and I had quite a bit of success with the ol' Lava Dart but it hasn't been good in a while with powercreep and I think DRS put the nail in that coffin.


that card is terrible... it has too many restrictions and its already worse than many other options seen in blue. necrologia is gonna be better almost 100% of the time for x=4 and ambition's cost is your x=3 sign in blood is your x=2

necrologia "Cast Necrologia only during your end step." Unplayable.

ambition's cost Sorcery speed Skeletal for 3 under most circumstances.

sign in blood Sorcery, double black, only draws 2.

I'm not saying Skeletal Scrying is insanity or anything but I fail to see how any of these cards are better in the average game of Legacy. Necrologia is horrible, it's not a one time use Bargain, that would actually be okay, it's a one time use Necropotence for 5. That card isn't even worth discussing. I did used to love Ambition's Cost in Burning Rock though.