[Article]Eternal Europe: Raiding The Necromancer's Vault

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

C.K. productions proudly presents: Even more ways to efficiently count to ten.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26588_Raiding-The-Necromancers-Vault.html

Enjoy & test it out!

[rxavage]

C.K. productions proudly presents: Even more ways to efficiently count to ten.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26588_Raiding-The-Necromancers-Vault.html

Enjoy & test it out!


Excellent! I will be trying out a similar list. Also, this has also inspired me to go back to my Reanimator list with LDV and try out STD.

[Star|Scream]

Thanks for the article!!

My two questions:

Does adding top and LDV slow the deck down from the 12 cantrip version?

Does it shore up any matchups over the cantrip counterpart?

[.dk]

Sweet article - I was liking LDV in Tin Fins for the same reason once Gitaxian Probe was added. Based on number of draws you have, it becomes like a kind of "mini-doomsday" as you said. Finding business + protection and being able to draw both and just win is such an amazing feeling.

I love pieces like this on utilizing complicated and intricate cards (Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Cabal Therapy, etc). Probably because I also love playing with overly complicated and intricate cards too... ;) But in general, articles like this are usually my favorite. Keep them coming if you have any more!

[Jin Gitaxias]

Can someone give me a more in depth explanation of how cycling through your deck with LDV works?
I understand that you can make new piles when you go through your entire deck given that the number of cards in your deck can not be divided by five. But how do you calculate if the first new pile that comes up is 2 cards from pile A en 3 cards from pile B and not 1 card from pile A and 4 cards from pile B?

[Namida]

Actually, the way I learned how to do this is from reading an old post emidln made years back when people were using it in Doomsday. I haven't been able to find the post, but basically, your piles as you resolve Lim-Dul's Vault and loop through your deck change based on how many cards away you are from a number that is divisible by five.

At 50, 45, etc., looping changes none of the piles.

At 51, 46, etc., your piles when you loop will be comprised of one card you put on the bottom of your previous pile.

At 52, 47, etc., your piles when you loop will be comprised of two cards you put on the bottom of your previous pile.

In other words...When you cast Vault and your deck has 53 cards in it and you see a pile that has three cards you want but two you don't care for, you could put them on the bottom of that current pile. If the next pile has two cards you want, you can put them at the top of the pile and loop through the deck to see a pile of those five cards (The bottom three of the first pile plus the top two of the second pile).

There are many other things you can be taking into account (which is why LDV is an insane card), but I think that sufficiently answers your question on determining which cards will be in your piles.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@rxavage: Reanimator looks like a good home for LDV, too, with the Reanimation effects taking the role of the abundant combo piece similar to the Rituals in Cabal ANT. Happy you enjoyed the article!

@Star|Scream: Thanks for reading :) As to your questions, the 16 cantrip version is actually the slowest version in a certain sense because you often take longer to find an actual business spell than versions that have business other than AdN, PiF and Infernal. That's actually the big reason I've always favored the Grim Tutor build before: less trouble hitting business on time in goldfish mode. Given that I'm generally able to win the turn after LDV resolves (usually turn 2 because of the UB manacost, so turn 3 win) I think Vault actually speeds up the deck compared to other options.

As for shoring up matchups, no it doesn't. It just makes the deck more consistent and slightly faster, which means you just get a generally slightly stronger deck instead of helping any matchup in particular.

@.dk: Thanks,I like this type of article, too (both to read and write). I don't have any particular card on the backburner at the moment but you can be sure you'll see similar articles when I do :) As for LDV in TinFins, it would definitely makes sense for them to work well. Vampiric Tutor for Entomb is excellent and you have enough acceleration/reanimation effects to be able to set up the full win with LDV with some regularity.

@Jin Gitaxias: Namida's explanation works well. For me personally, an easy way to keep track of this is the following thought process: I imagine that instead of putting the 5 card piles onto the bottom of my library, I use them to build a new "bottom library" next to the original one I'm cycling through. If there are 48 cards in my library and I keep moving through it in piles of five, at some point I'll have moved through 45 cards. Now I just have to imagine that instead of putting the cards straight on the bottom I construct the "new" library next to the old one. That way I can "see" that there will be exactly three cards still lying where my original library was. As a result, I know that once I pay 1 life again, I will see new piles constructed out of the bottom three cards of pile A (the one going to the bottom first) and the top 2 cards of pile B (the one going to the bottom after pile A). Does that clear things up?

@Namida: True, I remember that post now. Was a very sweet explanation! Thanks for clarifying and reminding me of that!

[emidln]

@Namida: True, I remember that post now. Was a very sweet explanation! Thanks for clarifying and reminding me of that!

For anyone interested in the older mechanical analysis and some play situations, here are some links to storm boards stuff on the subject.

The mechanical primer spoke of:
http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ddft&thread=433&page=4#2893

Link to a situation involving LDV with solution explanations from cheeseburger and myself:

http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=puzzles&action=display&thread=177

[Megadeus]

@Jin Gitaxias: Namida's explanation works well. For me personally, an easy way to keep track of this is the following thought process: I imagine that instead of putting the 5 card piles onto the bottom of my library, I use them to build a new "bottom library" next to the original one I'm cycling through. If there are 48 cards in my library and I keep moving through it in piles of five, at some point I'll have moved through 45 cards. Now I just have to imagine that instead of putting the cards straight on the bottom I construct the "new" library next to the old one. That way I can "see" that there will be exactly three cards still lying where my original library was. As a result, I know that once I pay 1 life again, I will see new piles constructed out of the bottom three cards of pile A (the one going to the bottom first) and the top 2 cards of pile B (the one going to the bottom after pile A). Does that clear things up?


Regarding this, would you actually be allowed to set the cards aside in the correct order, until you finish resolving the spell or need to use those cards for the full loop?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@emidln: Sweet, thanks!

@Megadeus: I actually have no idea if you could just put the already Vaulted cards in a new pile and declare that its on the bottom of your library. I don't think it's actually necessary/helpful, though. You aren't allowed to look at them again (without first looping through completely) anyway and you need to count out if you can loop and by how many cards before starting already so you might as well just put the cards straight to the bottom of your deck when paying the life (after ordering them correctly).

[lyracian]

I have always liked LDV; I expect there will be a rash of sales after this article. :tongue:

Your example 3 of Mull to 6 shows seven card images. I am guessing you added the Volcanic later to make a point about counting the number of cards in your deck?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I have always liked LDV; I expect there will be a rash of sales after this article. :tongue:

Your example 3 of Mull to 6 shows seven card images. I am guessing you added the Volcanic later to make a point about counting the number of cards in your deck?

I wish! In all honesty, I'm not sure how that happened. Clearly I didn't add a card to the hand by accident after writing the analysis as it takes all seven cards into account (I would either have removed the reference to the mulligan or changed the analysis if the added card were intentional), so I assume I accidentally mulled to seven and never realized. :/ Sorry about the mess up and thanks for catching it!

Also, yeah, LDV is sweet and I'm quite happy to be playing with it for once :) As for the sales, how many Storm players are there, really? ;)

[thefringthing]

Is there a rule that says when you look at card and then put then on the bottom of your library, you can do so in the order you want?


401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in which the cards go into his or her library.

[ThediscoPower]

I tryed out your list (Carsten) right after I saw the article, the only difference being that I don't play the senseis for 2 preordains instead. So far, I absolutely loved it. The only thing that is bothering me is sideboarding one petal, but if you say that it has been good for you so far, then I am willing to do it. Very good work on this!!!

[Mr Miagi]

As for the sales, how many Storm players are there, really? ;)

How many Minotaur players are there, really? Look at the Didgeridoo ;)

[ThomasDowd]

Is there a rule that says when you look at card and then put then on the bottom of your library, you can do so in the order you want?

Thanks!



Oracle text via gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159832

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Oracle text via gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159832

Thanks for taking care of the rules question, both of you!

@ThediscoPower: Happy to hear you enjoy the list. As for the Petal, I haven't really played enough with the latest version to be even close to confident in my conclusions on the card. I tried cutting it because Martin had done so and so far I haven't consciously missed it. It might well be important enough to force back in, though, especially as it's the only way to go turn 1 LDV into turn 2 win.

@MrMiagi: Lol, alright, point taken!

Also, I want to ask the following question (inspired by a comment back on SCG): How many of you would be interested in reading a "Beginner's Guide to Storm"-type article in which I explain how, imo, one should go about learning to play storm?

[Koby]

I would love to see a similar article on effective Cantripping in cantrip heavy combo decks that feature Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe; possible also Top and Preordain. Effective ways to see lots of cards for least mana etc.

[Kayradis]

I do believe it could be a good idea.

More and more storm/combo decks are appearing in the multiple circuits around the globe, and some players, thinking it only requires you to count to 10 grab the deck and cast Tendrils, fail miserably at it and shelve it for XX years.

You having a much more easily accessible tribune for the masses with SCG will probably clarify a lot of misconceptions on the archetype.

[Squirrel]

Also, I want to ask the following question (inspired by a comment back on SCG): How many of you would be interested in reading a "Beginner's Guide to Storm"-type article in which I explain how, imo, one should go about learning to play storm?


I would love to see a similar article on effective Cantripping in cantrip heavy combo decks that feature Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe; possible also Top and Preordain. Effective ways to see lots of cards for least mana etc.

I would appreciate both articles. This could also be the base for an ANT Primer, including other articles.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I would love to see a similar article on effective Cantripping in cantrip heavy combo decks that feature Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe; possible also Top and Preordain. Effective ways to see lots of cards for least mana etc.

Duly noted. That definitely sounds like a good subject to cover.

@Kayradis: Whenever I write an article on Storm, I strangely hope not too many people actually listen to me and pick up the deck. I don't want anything to be banned and Wizards hates the archetype with a passion... Meaning I'm not really too sad the whole "Just gotta count to ten" thing happens for most people that try out storm. We wouldn't want enough people to play the deck to really make a dent, would we?^^
That being said, I'm reasonably confident the complexity level of the deck will keep that from happening anytime soon, which is why I still write articles promoting it. That and how much fun actually playing it is! (<- speaking of misconceptions)

@Squirrel: I already have a - very basic - ANT primer (well, rather a presentation of the deck) among my archives, though it remains far from comprehensive enough for me to be content with. Good to know there's a public for more of those kinds of things!

[Sloshthedark]

As I was cited in the article, followed the discussion but was rather busy to respond, so to put some thoughts behind my list:

General construction

Basicaly the setup is mix of local metagaming and playful evening with GP Madrid 2010 lists. Plaing only storm I get bored time to time so I wanted to try something new besides weird SB. Originaly it had 3 SDT, not sure what has to go to put the 3rd top in =/.


Lands

I'd like another 2 fetches best =) , that being impossible... so after observing the biggest impulse to fetch basic is having the other one in hand/play already I tried playing none and it's fine for me... I fetched Sea most times knowing Opp has wasteland in hand anyway and strongly oppose fetching basics preemptively unless the situation calls for it, your 3rd land is going to be nonbasic anyway, the 2 previous restrain your options not to mention stifle leaves you with "just" island. Scenarios where wasteland/basic problem is the only obstacle (like swamp duress, fetch duress kill) are rare for me the accept it... you can obviously face daze+waste+stifle blowout situations, there are many scenarios and some feat. making them waste you, so basicaly you sacrifice some stability preboard to have more postboard - colorwise, mine choice being worse in waste-lock enviroment... I'd say I lose the same I gain in general in my meta.
Not playing Ground Seal I might go for 10 fetch 3 Sea setup. Other than that, you get some element of surprise... like Bayou->top into Badlands-> kill =D


SDT

the idea behind SDT is you with "delayed draw" you can better face discard and setup you Turn, the LDV interaction being obvious and it rather improves your longer games... still you have to accept the card does nothing first 2 turns most games unlike Preordain. Oldschool Ant tech. I don't miss the 4th ponder that much.


LDV

Some spanish guys used to run that 1-2 years ago, I used to dislike this tech post-ban because of card disadvantage, vulnerability to REB, SS and with 2 cc 2 colors it's weird element at first... it still feels very non-fluent, same with BW, but besides my love for old frames, walls of text and incomprehensible paintings I believe it has some real application - being a must counter puts Opps into tough decisions in early game same as it can turn the game upside down lategame. I rarely search for one-offs but cardtypes, combinations, so I haven't thought about looping, interesting how often it's fine to rearange just top 5 cards... Makes deck more challenging.


AN vs. EtW, 2x PiF

I rarely miss Ad Nauseam, EtW, although I dislike the cards looks and style, is more effective solution nowadays. With Ad Nauseam 0 floting you execute yourself more times then the combo itself. Lotus petal being the accelerant you don't want to see multiples, It's better to see useful card rather than improve your T1 Etw potency imo. I might consider AN SB but when to put it in? Also know CC is no limit both SB and MD with that goes my signature 2 PiF tech, used to play it even with AN in - speeds up the deck, prevents random discard+deathrite mishaps and is overall sick beyond belief... btw. still looking for 2nd korean foil... anyone?


SB

Thief - The list cited was build for our weekly LGS, this particular SB expected 2-3 other Ants, 2x reanimator/Tin-fins, 1x S&T in 14-20 people... Ant is the only deck that can actually punnish T2 brainstorm, Thief is more unexpected than Spannish Inquisition, can chip off lives reasonably well in longer games as well as satisfy suicidal tendencies vs. certain creatures... so much for the Thieves... Not definite recommendation but earns you some respect sometimes unpredictible lunatic reputation as well.

Pyroblast - unlike discard hits S&T, topdecked or with Leyline, and important BS in mirrors, has nice application vs. T2 CB which control player does not expect, covers Clique and Delver (which is not irrelevant as best Threshold starts against AnT feat. DoS).. works great for me

Ground Seal - before DRS discard alone used to be a joke, and many decks have GY hate as best and sometimes only choice in SB, and since spell can cost 2 lifes you play LDV, you know... sadly sometimes DRS is enough to stop you... Seal cycles itself so it's acceptable inclusion, practical aplication is kind of ok, hasn't been stellar for me as DRS decks leave some AD or Pulse in, but won some games... again is unexpected and prevents you from getting paired vs. reanimator =/

Lightning Bolt - wanted to play 3, have just 1 Alpha =D ... seriously - just decided I can't fit all 3 in with other cards I want to try... application - kills DRS, pings for 3...and you don't expect it...


and that's about it... Carsten, thank you for the article interesting read as always, maybe we'll meet at Bom or GP someday...



I don't think that play-right article is desirable, it's experience, general game knowledge and sharp mind that rewards you and defines your playstyle... thinking for a minute... maybe it's needed considering what happens under SCG camera...

[sdematt]

I liked the article. Not many people know how good LDV really is.

We referenced you in the latest Everyday Eternal Podcast :)

-Matt

[Kayradis]

@ Mon,Goblin Chief : I think SCG deserves a new Elves! primer. The last one was almost 2 years ago by Chris A. and with all the new options it could be a sweet piece.

I also understand you when you talk about bannings. Fortunately for us, Legacy is not Modern!

[mike1987]

C.K. productions proudly presents: Even more ways to efficiently count to ten.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26588_Raiding-The-Necromancers-Vault.html

Enjoy & test it out!

Awesome article as always Carsten! Really enjoyed reading it. I think LDV does make ANT even more consistent.

Just a few questions if you dont mind.

1) I see that your new list plays 2 Sensei's divining top. May I know what is the rationale behind it? Cause SDT is inherently a slow card and removing one lotus petal might combo-ing off ad nauseum even harder(Yes I know ANT is a bad ad nauseum deck as compared to TES) but sometimes going via that route is needed depending on card draw and the situation of the board state.

2) Since ANT is more of a PIF deck, so a lethal tendrils is more often than not the winning condition. Adding ETW does indeed give you a higher win rate against decks like Canadian threshold if you naturally draw it(or it is easier to play around soft counters as it costs 1 less than ad nauseum and PIF effectively) or even an alternative win con against decks like jund or maverick if it's being cast early in the game. Just wondering how is it treating you so far in your matches?

3) Lastly, I am really psyched to try out LDV in ANT, what do you think of this change that I make to your old list.
Old list: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25130-Eternal-Europe-The-Storm-Experience.html

-2 Preordain, -1 Grim Tutor, -1 Island --> +2 LDV, +1 ETW, +1 Badlands


Hopefully we can see more awesome articles from you! Thanks:)

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@sloshthedark: Thanks for putting down your thoughts/motivations. Some answers:

basics: what happens most for me is that I play first against RUG and fetch an Island, they drop their Delver/Cantrip/counter something and I get to get the swamp. At that point its really hard to lose in my experience. As such basics feel worth it to me.

LDV: felt the same about it before but retesting it fell in love with the card. It often feels like you can't lose when you resolve it, so sweet. Also: finally got to loop into a kill this weekend needing brainstorm and double accel in the same pile - so sweet :)

Double PiF/ANT: have been testing that, too, lately. It's pretty good because drawing Pif is sweet but still not sure it's actually necessary. In that build I have AdN and the missing Petal in the board, bringing it in against heavy discard decks and S&T - quite useful in those matchups to randomly win or at least necro for 10+ cards.

Your arguments for the SB cards are good, will try out some of them. I've also played with the idea of boarding a couple of Bolts independently - BURG can be a problem when they have Delver and Shaman and you can't deal with either. Killing Delver just buys you so much time, it might even be worth it for that alone.

@sdematt: Darn it, still behind on my listening schedule. Thanks for reminding me! Sadly couldn't listen to the first one on the "road", sound wasn't loud/clear enough to hear through subway noise - might be my MP3 player, though. Checked out the one with the judge Q&A, the sound quality seemed much better so I'll try listening to them outside again. Is that the one I'm referenced in (I skipped a bit of the Q&A because it felt like I knew all the answers already ;) )?

@Kayradis: would need to test some more to really cover Elves well. Will look out for the opportunity to test it more (managed to borrow it for one mini-tournament so far).

@Mike1987: Thanks :) As to the questions:
1)Basically the same reasoning Sloshthedark had. Makes your matchups against discard better and is very good when setting up cute plays/LDV. I wouldn't fault anyone for running the more standard Preordains instead, which might still be the correct choice. For every game Top wins me, there's one where it doesn't really do much of anything because you have better things to spend your mana on.

2)EtW wins games no other card could. I only use it once in ten games maybe (more in certain matchups, though tutor chains and Pif into Tendrils are still the main plan) but it's really worth it for those, especially as tempo is pretty much the hardest matchup among the most common decks.

3)I'd probably cut the 7th discard spell before the second Preordain, though doing what you suggest seems quite reasonable, too. Remember that having extra-cantrips also really helps to make LDV insane.