Pillars of Legacy

[Griselpuff]

Vintage has pillars so why can't we? Here's my list:

Delver of Secrets (Blue-based tempo)
Green Sun's Zenith (Green Creature-based aggro)
Aether Vial (Non-Green Creature-based aggro)
Lion's Eye Diamond (Combo)
Show and Tell
Chalice of the Void
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Blue-based control)
Deathrite Shaman (BG/x fair decks)

Some of these obviously overlap, but I thought it was a good start. There are also a lot of decks that don't play any of these cards. I guess that's the cool thing about Legacy, the fact that no deck is really forced to play any given card, unlike Vintage.

[Teluin]

I can think of 10.

Tundra
Underground Sea
Badlands
Taiga
Savannah
Scrubland
Plateau
Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Bayou

[kiblast]

I can think of 6.

Tundra
Underground Sea
Savannah
Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Bayou

Ftfy

[Lemnear]

Vintage had 5 "Pillars" defined for Giving the Metagame a structure for the B&R Management which they dumped completely a few years ago.

I have no idea what the random definition of pillars in Legacy should provide, especially because Legacy is too diverse to shove it into 3-5 pillars which would however be a sign of a bad metagame. Having more pillars is a joke for Balance if that's your goal

[Barook]

Brainstorm is a pillar

FoW is a pillar

GSZ is NOT a pillar since only certain Maverick variants and Nic Fit runs it.

I would Bob as a Pillar as well since he forces a certain way to construct your deck.

[Lemnear]

Brainstorm is a pillar

FoW is a pillar

GSZ is NOT a pillar since only certain Maverick variants and Nic Fit runs it.

I would Bob as a Pillar as well since he forces a certain way to construct your deck.

Brainstorm is not a pillar. FoW however would be because all FoW decks play Brainstorm but not every deck playing Brainstorm contains FoW.

GSZ however is more of a pillar being run by Maverick, Elves, NicFit and everything other that relies on green creatures with Vial and LED being the remaining 2 "pillars" if i'd Force the Legacy metagame into a Box of 4. Bout everything else are subtypes. Im uncertain if Bob is a pillar considering it's a lesser player in legacy

[apple713]

I can think of 10.

Tundra
Underground Sea
Badlands
Taiga
Savannah
Scrubland
Plateau
Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Bayou

Thats too many


Tundra
Underground Sea
Savannah
Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Bayou


Ftfy

Thanks for correcting him.


Brainstorm is a pillar

FoW is a pillar

GSZ is NOT a pillar since only certain Maverick variants and Nic Fit runs it.

I would Bob as a Pillar as well since he forces a certain way to construct your deck.

Bob is not a pillar. In fact he's seeing less play all the time


Brainstorm is not a pillar. FoW however would be because all FoW decks play Brainstorm but not every deck playing Brainstorm contains FoW.

GSZ however is more of a pillar being run by Maverick, Elves, NicFit and everything other that relies on green creatures with Vial and LED being the remaining 2 "pillars" if i'd Force the Legacy metagame into a Box of 4. Bout everything else are subtypes. Im uncertain if Bob is a pillar considering it's a lesser player in legacy


FOW is a pillar for a different reason than you mentioned. It holds together the metagame so the tournament turnout isnt 100 belcher decks.



I think this post would have been a good discussion if the OP first defined the word "Pillar" for people and gave the vintage example. Theres no point to further discuss until he does so.






The Five Pillars of VintageMonday, August 17th, 2009 by Nick Detwiler

I – The Five Pillars of Vintage
Null Rod

If you’ve seen a few Vintage matches you may begin to wonder how the decks could ever be categorized. There are so many variations of given themes that at first it may seem impossible.

There are, however, important distinctions that are drawn that help categorize each deck. The Five Pillars of Vintage:

1.Mana Drain (Various control strategies, most now with a combo finish)
2.Mishra’s Workshop (Prison based decks)
3.Dark Ritual (Combo decks)
4.Bazaar of Baghdad (Dredge decks)
5.Null Rod (Creature strategies)
The DCI has made a concerted effort to make each pillar playable. Even in an environment as diverse as Vintage, with combo, prison and control strategies abounding, creature based aggressive strategies are more than viable – they’re successful.

http://islandhomemtg.com/2009/08/the-five-pillars-of-vintage/ <----rest of article

Thats a start



It makes about a million times more sense to think of Legacy revolving around shells or deck skeletons than around single-card "pillars" if you ask me.



and yes it should be shells not pillars for legacy

you have the

chalice / stax shell with sol lands

CB top

Bloodbraid/shardless cascade shell

S&T

aether vial aggro

and Dark Ritual makes a reappearance in legacy too.

[Zombie]

It makes about a million times more sense to think of Legacy revolving around shells or deck skeletons than around single-card "pillars" if you ask me.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It makes about a million times more sense to think of Legacy revolving around shells or deck skeletons than around single-card "pillars" if you ask me.
So true...
The only pillar I see right now that is carved in stone (and also easily distinguished) is Ux-tempo. Dazes, Forces, Delvers, Wastelands. Mainly RUG is a pillar; it is played for years and not much changed except for the one-mana flying dudes.
Also, Storm is a pillar. But then again everyone starts to fragment it because "DDFT is different from ANT which is different from SI which is different from TES which is..." And there goes your pillar. :rolleyes:

Instead of throwing around random cards or random decks, it'll be good to just remind the metagame clock (combo-tempo-midrange-boardcontrol-etc., it was something like that) and then define the basics of each class. (E.g. to define Ux-tempo we may start with the Dazes, FoWs, Delvers and Wastes.)

Also:

I think this post would have been a good discussion if the OP first defined the word "Pillar" for people and gave the vintage example. Theres no point to further discuss until he does so.

[Griselpuff]

I would define Pillar as a card that has multiple distinct archetypes built around it, or at the very least having it be a really critical card (glue, if you will).

I didn't include enablers/answers like Bob and FOW. You don't really build decks around them, unlike the cards I listed.

GSZ is definitely a pillar. It's the glue that makes a lot of non-blue decks viable. It's played in Maverick, Bant, Junk and Elves.

[(nameless one)]

I think Shells are the way to describe Legacy subgroups.

How do you define a shell? It all depends if they get affected based on which hate.

[ahg113]

GSZ is definitely a pillar. It's the glue that makes a lot of non-blue decks viable. It's played in Maverick, Bant, Junk and Elves.

So Bant is a blue deck (unless they're just paying life for g.probe- ala Belcher or some dredge variants)...

Shells makes more sense than pillars, and the first distinction is U/not U. Then playstyle - combo, tempo, mid-range, control. Missing from this list is aggro, for better or worst.

GSZ makes sense as a pillar though as it's the replacement effect for Survival, which would have definitely been a pillar.

[kusumoto]

How about just...

Combo
Aggro
Tempo
Control

because there aren't card based pillars in Legacy.

[ahg113]

How about just...

Combo
Aggro
Tempo
Control

because there aren't card based pillars in Legacy.

What aggro decks are there?

[Zombie]

what aggro decks are there?

TES.

(forum software is retarded and decapitalizes that)

[DragoFireheart]

Based on the current Decks to Beat, here are the current pillars on a glance:

Brainstorm
Deathrite Shaman
Aether Vial
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Show and Tell
Lion's Eye Diamond
Deathrite Shaman
Deathrite Shaman
Show and Tell
Brainstorm
Deathrite Shaman
Deathrite Shaman

To sum that up:
Brainstorm
Deathrite Shaman
Show and Tell
Aether Vial
Lion's Eye Diamond

[Lemnear]

TES.

(forum software is retarded and decapitalizes that)

I love you for that post, dood.

Indeed the best Goblin.dec in the game lol

[Koby]

I love you for that post, dood.

Indeed the best Goblin.dec in the game lol

I routinely call TES the 5c Goblin aggro deck.

I also call Charbelcher the best Goblin deck in Legacy. Both its kill conditions lethal you with Goblins.

[Griselpuff]

Brainstorm is NOT a pillar, by my definition. And GSZ just specifies Green-based creature decks, so it's okay to have blue

[Kayradis]

TheSource.com

It's a pillar.
It keeps legacy together.

[DragoFireheart]

Brainstorm is NOT a pillar, by my definition.

And what is your definition of "a archtype pillar in Legacy"?

In Vintage it's defined by card(s).

[kusumoto]

Legacy has too many archetypes to do this.

Nobody wants a list of 20 cards. That's pointless.

Here I can revise my list for you.

Aggro/Tempo
Combo
Control

That's Legacy.

[Griselpuff]

The list of cards is not actually that long. I have yet to see anybody contribute a valuable "pillar" by my definition. I'm not sure what you DragoFireheart means by archetype pillar, but when I say pillar, I just mean card that is the "glue" for several different archetypes. If the list of cards is only around 10 or so, I think that is a valid way of thinking about specific decks and their strengths and weaknesses.

[Lemnear]

The list of cards is not actually that long. I have yet to see anybody contribute a valuable "pillar" by my definition. I'm not sure what you DragoFireheart means by archetype pillar, but when I say pillar, I just mean card that is the "glue" for several different archetypes. If the list of cards is only around 10 or so, I think that is a valid way of thinking about specific decks and their strengths and weaknesses.

It's pointless to define "pillars" in the way they exist(ed) in Vintage before WotC just said "Fuck Vintage! Let's stop bothering with balance there", and just name a dozen of cards which overlap in x archetypes.

Every Deathblade so has FoW, BS and Jace as pillars, S&T also 3 in BS, FoW and S&T itself, TES 2 with LED and BS.

This means that Deathblade and OmniTell share 2/3 of it's "pillars". What Information do you get from that? Do they play similar? No, that listing simply has no value or meaning and is ergo nonsense unlike in Vintage where overlaps are rare.

Workshop does not play well with manadrain
Ritual does not play well with manadrain
Manadrain does not play well with Bazaar
Etc.

The Moment Nullrod was consumed by Workshop strategies, Ritual neutered by Flusterstorm, MBT and a million New resistors like Thalia, E.Cannonist, Thorn, P.metamorph and Lodestone and manadrain was simply to slow to interact with Workshop and Bazaar, Vintage stopped being a balanced Format between pillars

[Tao]

The list of cards is not actually that long. I have yet to see anybody contribute a valuable "pillar" by my definition. I'm not sure what you DragoFireheart means by archetype pillar, but when I say pillar, I just mean card that is the "glue" for several different archetypes. If the list of cards is only around 10 or so, I think that is a valid way of thinking about specific decks and their strengths and weaknesses.

In that case Brainstorm is pillars, foundation, roof and walls of the format. The ten cards would be:

- Brainstorm
- Brainstorm
- Deathrite Shaman
- Force of Will
- Brainstorm
- Brainstorm
- Force of Will
- Show and Tell
- Lion's Eye Diamond
- Brainstorm

[crow_mw]

The Source logo gives quite a nice idea about what pillars of legacy are.

If you define 'pillars' as cards that are a glue that enable certain archetypes, than most of list in OP is not valid. Delver is not a foundation of tempo decks - he is just a strong guy in his spot, who can be easily replaced by something else. In fact tempo decks were doing fairly well before it was printed. Similar can be said about Deathrite Shaman or even Jace.

And while I agree that it is more convenient to discuss 'shells' rather than specific cards, I do believe there are pillars that define entire format and hold Legacy together. Those pillars are cards, that any deckbuilder takes into consideration, whether they are playing them or not. The interaction of the deck with each pillar is carefully considered and either the deck is built around handling it or makes a very aware choice, to ignore it. Such pillars are mostly disruption cards. You can build an amazing t2 kill deck, but if it auto looses to FoW it is possibly not a best choice. As such pillars of legacy include:

- FoW (representing all common countermagic)
- Wasteland (also representing Blood Moon and other non-basic hate)
- Swords to Plowshares (representing cheap creature removal)
- LED (as representative of storm combo)
- Show and Tell (might be a meta thing)

The list could also include some discard spells, some creatures (goyf?) or some board sweepers, but none of them is prominent enough that I would consider it a pillar representing entire category.

[TsumiBand]

If you define 'pillars' as cards that are a glue that enable certain archetypes, than most of list in OP is not valid. Delver is not a foundation of tempo decks - he is just a strong guy in his spot, who can be easily replaced by something else. In fact tempo decks were doing fairly well before it was printed. Similar can be said about Deathrite Shaman or even Jace.

Not that Delver is a pillar of the format necessarily, but I don't think this is true. Delver is just about one of the best Blue one-drops one can think of; I do not think it could be swapped at this point for another random beater or thing that flies.

One of my favorite things to remember about Magic is that there are no bad threats, only bad answers. As I examine this statement right now, though - and this is at least by my reckoning at least a 10 year old adage, if not older - the fact of the matter is not all threats are created equal. If I'm playing bad the "no bad threats" rule and playing with Flying Men instead of Delver and my opponent's only life total changes are due to my attack with that creature, I have to protect Flying Men for 20 turns. In the case of Delver of Secrets, if it flips on turn 2 I need only protect it for 7. There are countless reasons why Delver is a stronger play and better enables strategies that leverage Blue control against their threat base than previous Blue spells. I strongly suspect that even the Bluest, card-drawingest decks would rather capitalize on the better clock.

[DragoFireheart]

, but when I say pillar, I just mean card that is the "glue" for several different archetypes. If the list of cards is only around 10 or so, I think that is a valid way of thinking about specific decks and their strengths and weaknesses.


Brainstorm is NOT a pillar, by my definition.

:rolleyes:

[FTW]

Thats too many


Tundra
Underground Sea
Savannah
Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Bayou



More like:

1) Island.landtype

2) Deathrite Shaman

3) Ancient Tomb

4) Aether Vial

5) Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame

In other words:
-blue-based aggro-control
-Gx-based creature decks, disruptive or aggro, usually with some kind of creature-based mana acceleration
-sol land based decks focused around playing powerful 3cc cards on turn 1/2
-Vial aggro backed with disruption
-fast combo fueled by accelerants

While those pillars involve merging of deck types, I think they represent the key engines to gain some kind of unfair advantage and compete in Legacy. You either need to be able to counter unfair stuff or cheat stuff out unfairly.

I'd argue there used to be other engines like Lightning Bolt (Zoo, Burn, Goyf Sligh), Thoughtseize (MBA, sui black, pox), Life from the Loam (aggro loam, Lands, loamstill) and Seat of the Synod, but those are only powerful efficient cards and are outclassed by actual unfair stuff. You might be able to make the case for Narcomoeba being a pillar, but it doesn't look so hot next to DRS.

[Finn]

DragoFireHeart=Awesome

[Griselpuff]

Okay well it looks like this discussion is going in a completely different direction than I intended due to my poor definition of the word "pillar". What I was looking for was somewhat similar to what Carsten did, but looking for a one specific card that represented multiple archetypes. Brainstorm and FOW are terrible examples of this because they are in so many different decks. Answers generally do not define decks; threats do. I'm looking for cards that define how a certain deck might play out. In that case, a deck having Aether Vial gives loads more info than a deck that contains Swords to Plowshares.

Re: Delver, he's definitely the main threat of blue based tempo decks. Blue based tempo decks span multiple archetypes and are a dominant factor of Legacy's metagame. End of argument.

[death]

Look up.



Up.



That's right.



Look at the f'n banner!

[Megadeus]

Would Life from the loam be considered one?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

a deck having Aether Vial gives loads more info than a deck that contains Swords to Plowshares.

Yes, you're sooo right... :sarcasm:


4 Aether Vial

So, what do we see here? What loads of info? Doesn't it matter if that's part of a Vial Goblins, Merfolk or Maverick? There goes your "loads of info".


I think that it's futile to discuss this Pillar Tombs of Legacy stuff unless we agree on what pillar is.

"Column or pillar in architecture and structural engineering is a structural element that transmits, through compression, the weight of the structure above to other structural elements below, in other words a column is a compression member."

Ok, so in MtG world, pillar might be something like this:
"Column or pillar in deckbuilding and metagaming is a deckbuilding element that transmits, through very powerful effect, the weight of the deck above to other deckbuilding/metagaming elements below, in other words a column is a card(s) that makes certain decks/archetypes work."


Now when we've made this vague and completely pointless definition, lets look smart and start a discussion where we may throw around random pieces of gaming jargon.

"One of the pillars of Legacy, especially when looking solely at metagaming (and for this reason I'll not only weight certain cards in vacuum, but also will think of completely static metagame) and even more during deckbuilding, might be very easily distinguished once you'll look at the metagame clock... but it's a very start.
Although power-creep (and to some extent also bans and restrictions and/or lack of those), together with card availability and human tendention to overlook the not so visible interactions, lead to the creation of certain archetypes in the past, when thinking of pillars, one must not limit his thought process to only "decks to beat" or "tier1 strategies". Because a pillar may support not only great buildings, but also the more usual ones.
With blue been color-to-choose in MtG since the AlphaBeta, and with the domination of the color (and related power of the decks/archetypes/strategies that prey upon it), it shouldn't be surprising that when searching for a pillar, one must undergo a journey to the world of blue. Yet such a simplification like "blue is domitaing and thus blue is pillar" is not only intellectual lazy and dishonest, but also completely useless for the people like you and I, who do really understand the Legacy; the trends, the game itself and the hidden undercurrent and metagame shifts.
As much as I'd love to use the usual definition of pillar, I'm afraid it's unusable for me anymore, as I already outgrown the players' base and thus left the common "Brainstorm-Force" paradigm. Everyone not convinced or determined to look on the things from completely new perspective may stay true to the old paradigm, but seen how it less and less works in the world of new and is condemned to describe the world of the past (lets say the last decade or so; and the pre-Mirage, pre-tournaments-in-mind designed Magic was even worse), the easy (yet childish) style of weighting and describing the mutual powers of certain cards/decks/archetypes is unsuited for me. No more I can just rely on something unscientifical (yes, you heard the word) like the everydays "Force is the force that holds format together" or "guys, aethr vail is sooo broekn".
I challenge the community to come with a better definition of what pillar is than the one by yours sincerely."

[lochlan]

Answers generally do not define decks; threats do.

This coming from the guy who played Energy Field/RIP Control? I'm at a loss. I'm not even trying to slam you (you seemed cool, we met briefly in Denver at Applebees when Nick and I crashed your dinner), I'm genuinely confused. Miracles, Landstill, and many other control decks are the same way--they have very little other than answers. (You win with a Mountain Goat, as the old joke goes.)


Re: Delver, he's definitely the main threat of blue based tempo decks.

When I look at UR Delver vs. RUG I can't help but think that you may be placing too much importance on Delver of Secrets. I'll concede that it's "usually" the best threat in RUG and certainly made the deck the powerhouse it is today, but "no Delver is an island" (apologies to John Donne).

[lordofthepit]

Pillars are not the most played cards in the format, but rather, staples played in roughly non-overlapping decks that encompass most of the format.

If I had to come up with a few right now, they are as follows:

Lion's Eye Diamond
Show and Tell
Green Sun's Zenith
Delver of Secrets
Aether Vial
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Chalice of the Void
Dark Confidant

Yes, there are some overlaps, but that's as close as I can come up with right now.

Edit: I came up with this without seeing the list in OP's original post. Incredibly, the only difference is Dark Confidant vs. Deathrite Shaman to represent the B/G fair decks, so we're pretty much in agreement.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, if by the word "pillar" you mean something like the five or so cards that fuel Vintage (Bazaar, Workshop, Drain,you know), then I beg to disagree. Imagine the differencies between the two formats. Would you mull to Bazaar and does the card have immense impact on how your deck plays? Would you mull to Confidant?

The only exceptions are Show and Tell, because S&T decks modus operandi is extremely different when you (don't) have an access to it's namesake card. And when I think about it, this is also true about Aether Vial: having it or not completely changes the dynamic of particular game.
LED... LED is powerful, indeed. Even in Ichorid (yes, few Ichorid builds don't even use LED) this card makes the deck fast and helps them in two directions at once, all at a cost of :0:

I think that pillar is a card that if banned, the decks build around it will crumble or at least will be crippled or hurt. See Bazaar/Shop in Vintage. There aen't that many cards in Legacy. The only ones I may think of are LED, Vial, S&T and Brainstorm; maybe Force of Will, too.
But the impact of those cards on the format is lesser than that of their repsective counterparts in Vintage. (Unless I'm wrong.) You can't compare Force to Drain...

[Zombie]

The whole pillar thing is just silly. I think people tried it in Pauper once upon a time, too. Dunno why people try to force a concept to apply to an entirely different format.

[DragoFireheart]

Okay well it looks like this discussion is going in a completely different direction than I intended due to my poor definition of the word "pillar". What I was looking for was somewhat similar to what Carsten did, but looking for a one specific card that represented multiple archetypes. Brainstorm and FOW are terrible examples of this because they are in so many different decks. Answers generally do not define decks; threats do. I'm looking for cards that define how a certain deck might play out. In that case, a deck having Aether Vial gives loads more info than a deck that contains Swords to Plowshares.


I didn't realize Aether Vial could turn side ways in a Goblin deck and hit me for 20 damage. Are they running some secret tech that I missed?

[apple713]

More like:

1) Island.landtype

2) Deathrite Shaman

3) Ancient Tomb

4) Aether Vial

5) Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame

In other words:
-blue-based aggro-control
-Gx-based creature decks, disruptive or aggro, usually with some kind of creature-based mana acceleration
-sol land based decks focused around playing powerful 3cc cards on turn 1/2
-Vial aggro backed with disruption
-fast combo fueled by accelerants

While those pillars involve merging of deck types, I think they represent the key engines to gain some kind of unfair advantage and compete in Legacy. You either need to be able to counter unfair stuff or cheat stuff out unfairly.

I'd argue there used to be other engines like Lightning Bolt (Zoo, Burn, Goyf Sligh), Thoughtseize (MBA, sui black, pox), Life from the Loam (aggro loam, Lands, loamstill) and Seat of the Synod, but those are only powerful efficient cards and are outclassed by actual unfair stuff. You might be able to make the case for Narcomoeba being a pillar, but it doesn't look so hot next to DRS.



This is probably as close as you are going to get as pillars for legacy

[goblinsplayer]

I didn't realize Aether Vial could turn side ways in a Goblin deck and hit me for 20 damage. Are they running some secret tech that I missed?

+1

[Plague Sliver]

Wouldn't you just define pillars as format-defining cards?

We could list all these super effective, bang-for-the-buck cards like Brainstorm or Deathrite Shaman, but for my money it comes down to 3:

- Force of Will
- Lion's Eye Diamond
- Show and Tell

These cards either enable the degenerate, or stop it.

Think about it this way: I could pack my deck w/ 4 Brainstorms, 4 Vials, 4 DRS, etc. But I'd still get stomped by the 3 pillars if I ran goodstuff.dec and didn't consider the effects of these 3 cards.

/my 2 cents

Edit: 200 posts! woo-hoo!

[Zombie]

Please stop already, this is useless ffs : /

[Quasim0ff]

The reason why this is impossible to do, compared to Vintage Pillars, is that the card pool in legacy is very linear.
There's no Workshop, There's no Bazaar etc. Bazaar and Workshops were 2 of the 4 pillars, with the three other being Rituals, Mana Drains and Null Rods.

Also: A pillar is not just good cards, that go in multiple decks.

One could argue that the pillars of legacy could be:

Aether Vial
Show and Tell
Jace
Tarmogoyf(/Delver of Secrets)
Cabal Therapy

Obviously these cards don't relate to ONE particular archetype, as that isn't what pillars are supposed to do. Pillars highlight the broader trends of the legacy metagame. Not just good stuff cards. Brainstorm can NEVER be a pillar, as it is multifunctional. It works in both Jace decks, Show and Tell, Delver/Goyf decks and even in most of the Cabal Therapy decks. (ANT/TES).

[Higgs]

The way I view pillars in Legacy is through a loose combination of archetypes and centerpiece money cards which the decks revolve around. So my list would be

UWx Jace-Tundra control decks
Show&Tell combo
LED Storm combo
BUG Midrange-Control
Tarmogoyf Tempo (probably has a cross section with BUG)
BGx Dark Confidant Midrange
Vial Tribal Decks
and... Burn! :)