Which cards give control decks the most trouble?

[apple713]

So I was brainstorming cards for a hate based deck and I came up with the following but blanked completly on Control based decks

Aggro

moat
peacekeeper
ensnaring bridge
meekstone


Combo

ethersworn cannonist
meddling mage
Leyline of sanctity
counterbalance



Miscellaneous

magus of the moon
Blood moon
rest in peace


Control / Tempo
...


Anyone know what single cards really give control a really hard time? The list just happens to randomly be mostly white / blue cards but i'll take any card that gives control decks a really hard time. what cards can control decks do very little about or have little interaction with?





Suggested

Cavern of souls
aether vial
abrupt decay
Punishing Fire
Winter orb
Suppression field
Thalia
liliana of the veil
armageddon
Jace, the mind sculptor
gaddock teeg
thrun
elspeth, knight-errant
geist of saint traft
vendilion clique
Bitterblossom
Umezawa's jitte
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
choke
sulfuric vortex
chains of mephistopheles
lingering souls
mother of runes
nimble mongoose
decree of justice


Keep the ideas coming

[Norm]

Aether Vial is a good one, stax effects, targeted discard, etc...

[DragoFireheart]

Aether Vial
Cavern of Souls
Abrupt Decay
Goblin Ringleader
Nimble Mongoose

[death]

I've played only Ub-g control and from experience goblins, GY decks and ANT/PiF have been difficult matchups.

[DragoFireheart]

I've played only Ub-g control

ANT/PiF have been difficult matchups.

What? Clarify.

[DLifshitz]

Abrupt Decay
Punishing Fire
mana denial
Lingering Souls
Slaughter Games
Sylvan Library
Chains of Mephistopheles

[nedleeds]

Armageddon
City of Solitude
Choke
Boil
Thrun, the Last Troll
Gaddock Teeg
Cataclysm

[apple713]

Aether Vial is a good one, stax effects, targeted discard, etc...

dont want to add stax effects just cause it'll hurt me too. things like chalice on 1 or trinishphere. Chalice effect are mainly good with sol lands but outside of that not so awesome. Aether vial is good. added to te list


Aether Vial
Cavern of Souls
Abrupt Decay
Goblin Ringleader
Nimble Mongoose

added some things from here too


Abrupt Decay
Punishing Fire
mana denial
Lingering Souls
Slaughter Games
Sylvan Library
Chains of Mephistopheles

I'm getting the idea that maybe stopping them isnt necessarily the way to go about it but rather gain card advantage over them?

[alphastryk]

Winter Orb, Supression Field, Tsunami, Boiling Seas, Ravages of War, Thalia, Liliana of the Veil

[apple713]

Winter Orb, Supression Field, Tsunami, Boiling Seas, Ravages of War, Thalia, Liliana of the Veil

excellent, I dont know how i could have forgotten liliana.



also, if yall have suggestions for the other secions that would be greatly appreciated as well.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think that due to the nature of control, it is not easy to stop the strategy. Also: they have answers, and thus it's even more hard to hurt them.
Imho it's good to mix approaches: Vial+Thalia+Geddon, Vial+Waste+Lackey, Waste+Deathrite+Duress, Chains of Mephistophle+Hymn+Sinkhole, Bloodghast+Pox+Lftl.

EDIT: When it comes to U/x Control, some of the World Enchantments are pretty powerful: Nether Void, In the Eye of Chaos, City of Solitude...

[jamis]

Against control, you either want to swarm them with too many threats or you want to go bigger than them. If you can cast it, Karn Liberated will single-handedly take over a grindy control mirror.

[Shawon]

As an Affinity player, my best weapon against control is hands-down Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Tangle Wire is also good.

[Esper3k]

Control decks tend to be focused primarily on dealing with creatures, so permanents such as Jace, Elspeth, Chalice of the Void can be difficult for them to answer.

Hexproof creatures (Thrun, Geist) and flash / disruptive ones (Vendilion Clique, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Mother of Runes) can be problematic for them as well.

[apple713]

Control decks tend to be focused primarily on dealing with creatures, so permanents such as Jace, Elspeth, Chalice of the Void can be difficult for them to answer.

Hexproof creatures (Thrun, Geist) and flash / disruptive ones (Vendilion Clique, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Mother of Runes) can be problematic for them as well.

I think your right regarding the permanents. I feel like Liliana is the best cause it destroys both their hand and the few creatures they run.. That is if you can land one.

Thurn is good on its own cause it doesnt rely on aether vial to be flashed into play

I feel as though the deck may be leaning towards the aether vial route since it's running mainly 1 2 and 3 drop creatures.

Not a huge fan of teeg cause it keeps me off moat, but it keeps control off jace, terminus, force, EE. Also, Meddling mage keeps them off Swords to plowshares along with mother.



I think these ideas are great guys. Are there more? Maybe i missed cards in the other sections?

[ajfennewald]

I haven't seen sulfuric vortex mentioned yet.

[ahg113]

I haven't seen sulfuric vortex mentioned yet.

As a tag-along, Pyrostatic Pillar. Anti-control (all the cantrips and non-FoW counterspells), and anti-combo.

[crow_mw]

I think these ideas are great guys. Are there more? Maybe i missed cards in the other sections?

Choke is traditionally a good hate card for control decks. Also depending on what wincons do you intend to run yourself and it hurts your own hatebears, but for many creature decks, as well as s'n't, reanimator, dredge and the likes landing a Humility is gg.

[apple713]

I haven't seen sulfuric vortex mentioned yet.

great card


As a tag-along, Pyrostatic Pillar. Anti-control (all the cantrips and non-FoW counterspells), and anti-combo.

more for storm combo i would imagine but i can see the application. Hurts my deck almost as much


Choke is traditionally a good hate card for control decks. Also depending on what wincons do you intend to run yourself and it hurts your own hatebears, but for many creature decks, as well as s'n't, reanimator, dredge and the likes landing a Humility is gg.

humility will probably end up in the SB

[Esper3k]

Teeg + SoLS = makes control decks cry.

City of Solitude is also a punch in the balls for them.

[.dk]

Defense Grid is pretty good against Blue based control. As is Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.

[Humphrey]

Choke
Sulfuric Vortex
Chains of Mephistopheles

[FTW]

I'm getting the idea that maybe stopping them isnt necessarily the way to go about it but rather gain card advantage over them?

THIS

IMO targeted hosing, aside from Islands hate (Choke), isn't the way to go because control decks, unlike other decks, aren't really trying to DO anything to hose in the first place. They're just trying to stay in control of the game. There's nothing to hose, because they're the one waiting for you to make a move and they're the one reacting. So beat them by breaking that control by either:

-gaining massive card advantage they can't compete with (Goblin Ringleader, Dark Confidant, Punishing Fire, Lingering Souls, planeswalkers, etc.)

-playing things they can't interact with (Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Thrun, not spending mana all game then attacking with 10 zombie tokens)

-or limiting access to their tools to control you (City of Solitude, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Chalice of the Void, Suppression Field, Manabarbs, Blood Moon, etc.)

Rather than control "hate", I think there's a lot more "protection" from control - e.g. Abrupt Decay, Vexing Shusher, Cavern of Souls, Silence, Xantid Swarm, City of Solitude. Suitable protection depends on your deck's strategy I guess...

That said, if you want to beat on some control decks, just sleeve up some Merfolk or Goblins.

[apple713]

THIS

IMO targeted hosing, aside from Islands hate (Choke), isn't the way to go because control decks, unlike other decks, aren't really trying to DO anything to hose in the first place. They're just trying to stay in control of the game. There's nothing to hose, because they're the one waiting for you to make a move and they're the one reacting. So beat them by breaking that control by either:

-gaining massive card advantage they can't compete with (Goblin Ringleader, Dark Confidant, Punishing Fire, Lingering Souls, planeswalkers, etc.)

-playing things they can't interact with (Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Thrun, not spending mana all game then attacking with 10 zombie tokens)

-or limiting access to their tools to control you (City of Solitude, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Chalice of the Void, Suppression Field, Manabarbs, Blood Moon, etc.)

Rather than control "hate", I think there's a lot more "protection" from control - e.g. Abrupt Decay, Vexing Shusher, Cavern of Souls, Silence, Xantid Swarm, City of Solitude. Suitable protection depends on your deck's strategy I guess...

That said, if you want to beat on some control decks, just sleeve up some Merfolk or Goblins.

You are right, about control decks doing nothing. My question shuold have been, what cards can control decks do very little about or have little interaction with. Things like what you named.

what cards are extremly hard to keep in control?

[from Cairo]

Sylvan Library


This card right here.

[Finn]

Nimble Mongoose
Goblin Ringleader
Mother of Runes

[Dice_Box]

Ensnaring Bridge
Vexing Shusher
Gaddock Teeg
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Umezawa's Jitte
Anarchy

[Richard Cheese]

Haven't seen Bitterblossom mentioned yet.

Discard in general was classically the anti-counter strategy, as was mana denial, but both are fairly conditional and lose effectiveness as the game goes on. Seriously though...Boiling Seas? Has everyone forgotten that Boil is a card?!

[clavio]

Decree of Justice!

[HPB_Eggo]

Control generally has to answer things to win games. If a threat is either so fast or so resilient that they can't answer it, they lose.

As such, some examples...

Mother of Runes. Honestly not sure why this hasn't been mentioned more, but blanking spot removal is great against control.
Aether Vial. Listed by a lot of other people, it's good because it blanks one of only three ways they have of dealing with creatures - counters, spot removal, and sweepers. (Some control decks also generate blockers, and those are the ones Aether Vial tends to be not quite so good against.) It also makes your entire deck faster if it sticks.
Liliana. If they can't hold onto cards, they can't hold onto answers. Since you only need one threat to stick to win and they need to answer every threat, every card is worth more for them than it is for you.
Sylvan Library. Conversely, since they need to answer every threat and you only need one to stick, having even a single extra threat to put down can win you the game. Library can do that for you, and more.
Sulfuric Vortex. It's very resilient - Abrupt Decay is its only real worry in most control decks - and it puts the control player on a hard clock.
Nimble Mongoose. 3/3 with Shroud that comes down for one mana? Like MoM but hits harder and doesn't need backup.
Thalia. If they can't cast all of the answers they have, they won't win. Combine with mana denial to make your deck fast enough to win before they can answer your threats.

Obviously there are lots more, but the reasons stay more or less the same. If your deck is full of threats and the opponent's deck is full of answers, you only need to stick one threat they can't deal with fast enough to win. Faster, more resilient threats having a greater chance of sticking long enough to win. If every threat you land can only be answered one way, and you land a threat every turn while turning off your opponent's CA/CQ engines, you will eventually win. If you land enough to go lethal by turn three and can do so again on turn five if they play a sweeper - think Goblins, in many games - then you're so fast they can't do anything but try to have a sweeper every couple of turns. And, of course, there's a lot between those extremes, but that's really how you do it.

[Piceli89]

This card right here.

+1

[Iron Buddha]

The problem is to find ways to deal with a lot of problematic cards at the same time. Technically there is an answer to very problematic card. At the moment, I'd say, you really should have an answer to Jitte, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant (Abrupt Decay, EE), Punishing Fires (RiP, C. Wish, EtA, CB, Trinket Mage) and enough gas for grindy matchups.

[Octopusman]

I ran a hate deck that used Jace 2, Magus of the Moon, Peacekeeper, meddling mage, Mother of Runes, Forces, spell pierce, (pithing needles, canonist, thalia in the board) etc.
I loved that deck.

One of the main problems was that I would get completely blown out by terminus since I would rely too much on bears. Meddling Mage can't stop cycling of gem palm and you don't always have a mom.
Meddling mage could be on supreme verdict or terminus. Without mom, they will just plow mage or play the other sweeper.

I ran Echoing Truth to deal with spirits or angels. Without spierce or force backup it would be gg if responded to.


The slow clock of a hate deck like this isn't enough to take down control. If I did it again, I'd probably run Geist + Jitte in an attempt to shore it up.
Unfortunately, geist is a spirit cleric and not a "human" spirit.

I didn't run caverns due to running both magus of moon & jace 2 (manabase was extremely tight because of this) but luckily magus of the moon, meddling mage, canonist, thalia, peacekeeper are all human.

Super fun. Good luck.
There have been a lot of green suggestions in there. Maybe burning tree shaman has a place if top is abused.
Personally, I think vial isn't good enough but revoker works great with vial if you go that route. Remember, they can't respond to revoker etb if they agree the vial activation resolves so you can snipe tops, etc.

[apple713]

I ran a hate deck that used Jace 2, Magus of the Moon, Peacekeeper, meddling mage, Mother of Runes, Forces, spell pierce, (pithing needles, canonist, thalia in the board) etc.
I loved that deck.

One of the main problems was that I would get completely blown out by terminus since I would rely too much on bears. Meddling Mage can't stop cycling of gem palm and you don't always have a mom.
Meddling mage could be on supreme verdict or terminus. Without mom, they will just plow mage or play the other sweeper.

I ran Echoing Truth to deal with spirits or angels. Without spierce or force backup it would be gg if responded to.


The slow clock of a hate deck like this isn't enough to take down control. If I did it again, I'd probably run Geist + Jitte in an attempt to shore it up.
Unfortunately, geist is a spirit cleric and not a "human" spirit.

I didn't run caverns due to running both magus of moon & jace 2 (manabase was extremely tight because of this) but luckily magus of the moon, meddling mage, canonist, thalia, peacekeeper are all human.

Super fun. Good luck.
There have been a lot of green suggestions in there. Maybe burning tree shaman has a place if top is abused.
Personally, I think vial isn't good enough but revoker works great with vial if you go that route. Remember, they can't respond to revoker etb if they agree the vial activation resolves so you can snipe tops, etc.

I've spoken with you about your deck before and its where i've gotten some of the ideas for my current build from. I've gone a different route than red but may revisit it. The current build i've been working on doesnt win fast enough or put enough pressure on control decks.

Main problems i ran into with my first build was dealing with elspeth cause it flies over moat. oh and being short on lands. Geist does seem like a problem as well

[Kagehisa]

Great Sable Stag.

[Humphrey]

Great Sable Stag.
http://cdn.memegenerator.co/instances/600x/40263082.jpg

[Megadeus]

Vs miracles I enjoy chalice of the void plus gaddock teeg :-)

[kirdie]

Cards whose high power budget is offset by a weakness insignificant vs control
Some cards are only printed with their high power because they have a weakness to make it balanced.
Against control however, both time and life are resources that you have in abundance, thus making the following cards very strong versus control, even though they don't actually attack them directly.

Bitterblossom (tokens for Time and Life)
Dark Confidant (cards for time and life)
Ancestral Visions (cards for time)
Luminarch Ascension (tokens for time, weak against damage but you don't get damage vs control)

Cards which attack or tax Mana
The Control Spells are mostly expensive noncreatures, which leaves them succeptible (or however it is spelled) to mana denial or taxing.

Wasteland
Daze
Spell Pierce
Rishadan Port
Blood Moon if 3 Colors

Cards which prevent countering or cannot be countered or don't care much about it because they can be played again
Manlands
Cavern of Souls
Lingering Souls
Life from the Loam
Defense Grid
City of Solitude
Xantid Swarm
Hardcast Emrakul (12 Post)

Anti-Blue
In General:
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Choke

Specific Decks:
Goblin Piledriver
Inkwell Leviathan

Other Stuff
Sword of Feast and Famine
Liliana of the Veil
Pithing Needle