FTV 20 100% Spoiled - Discussion

[apple713]

Seems like this is not as great as one would have hoped with the exception of jace. Some cards got a good facelift and others look terrible. Vensur is probably my fav new artwork. I think the swords will be pretty sweet too, except that gay foiling process. Tangle wire looks ridiculously bad, but fyndhorn is finally foil for all those elf tribes. Hymn's artwork is rather dissapointing since it was the first time it was foiled.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/rc/259


heres the list

dark ritual
swords to plowshares
hymn to tourach
fyndhorn elves
impulse
wall of blossoms
thran dynamo
tangle wire
fact or fiction
chainer's edict
akroma's vengeance
gilded lotus
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
char
Venser, Shaper Savant
Chameleon Colossus
Cruel Ultimatum
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Green Sun's Zenith
Kessig Wolf Run


What do yall think?

[Megadeus]

That tangle wire. Blech

[StefN]

Except Jace, I obviously like the Hymn and I thinck the Fyndhorn Elve is quite nice.
The rest is..........well............

[Sloshthedark]

yet again, poor design, useless product... not worth my attention, if any... just more kids with pseudopimp confusing art cards...

kick out the crap , make that beta frame for nostalgia and earn both some of my respect and money...

[Aggro_zombies]

I will want to pick up the Fyndhorn Elves and the Akroma's Vengeance for EDH purposes. The rest of it...eh.

The Jace really does carry this product.

[Shawon]

So, they referenced a Psychatog deck that had Chainer's Edict, and they went with Chainer's Edict as the more iconic card? I know I don't really mean it as I will always check spoilers, but fuck it, this is the last time I'm ever going to give a shit about FTV sets.

[Megadeus]

Yeah kessig wolf run dissapointed me as well... kessig was just a worse version of valakut...

[Norm]

Blame Gavin for ruining this. FTV 20 had massive potential and this is certainly a disappointment in my eyes. For those of you who watched SCG Live back when Gavin was a regular commentator you'll know that he routinely interrupted other commentators and directed all conversation toward his own personal experiences with cards and tournaments etc. I was so sick of that guy making everything about him in some disgusting attempt at proving himself to the world or some crap "Yeah that play was awesome, I remember when I did something similar only entirely more awesome in some random tournament..I'm cool!". This set may as well have been named FTV: Things that Gavin likes!

Thanks Gavin Verhey, you suck.

[apple713]

Thanks Gavin Verhey, you suck.
had to look this guy up... seems that he was part of the terribleness that is now known as gatecrash.


Cards that'll see play or were so bad they were worth mentioning

dark ritual
swords to plowshares
hymn to tourach
fyndhorn elves
thran dynamo <---edh
tangle wire <----not pimp at all for people who play vintage and actually use this card
fact or fiction <---------3rd foil printing of this card...really guys
gilded lotus <--------edh
char <---------wtf really....i would have been happier with a differnt picture for lightning bolt
Venser, Shaper Savant <------satisfaction
Jace, the Mind Sculptor


8/20 thats like a 40%....maybe the back side of the bell curve WOTC. no wonder legacy is dying, yall aint got the love for it.

[KobeBryan]

my local game store is asking for $300 for this set.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Wanderlust]

That tangle wire. Blech

+1. That Tangle Wire art is godawful.

Also, Gavin Says: "Plus, with the opportunity to get new art that looks far superior to the not-at-all representative old art of the card, Chainer's Edict was perfect fit.

WTF is he talking about? The old art for Chainer's Edict is infinitely more interesting (and superior from a composition standpoint imo) that my mind is blow by his comment here. The old art is brutal and beautiful at the same time.

[GoblinSettler]

That tangle wire. Blech

Yoga pants, the card. Sigh. So that's kinda embarrassing.

Original art on Chainer's Edict is one of my favorites.

Expected to see Icy Manipulator. But I can understand going with Swords.

I think the new Fyndhorn Elves look nice. Will try to pick one up for EDH. That's it for me on this FtV.

[Erdvermampfa]

Seems like they're holding the option to reprint Force of Will in a regular set because they finally realized that Modern can't do without it.

[phonics]

Char? Wolf Run? Ultimatum? Chameleon Colossus? If I wanted foil versions of those I would pay the 50 cents and that would be that, they wouldn't have the hideous set symbol either. New art is wasted on the Tangle Wire that no one wants (people that play it would want another version and outside of those people no one plays it), and I find it odd that there are huge chunks of 'magic history' that aren't really represented. When I think of the past of magic, archtypes like rec sur, tog, Rebels, fires, Affinity, faeries, and necro pop into mind among others, yet none of these are really represented at all in this set. It is really like he was forced to put these cards in because of Jace. What really annoys me though is the logo, how could they approve of such a poor design? It literally looks like it was made in mspaint with a circle filled in red with 20 inside in using the default font. Surely someone on the design team could devote more than 5 seconds towards the development of the symbol.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Blame Gavin for ruining this. FTV 20 had massive potential and this is certainly a disappointment in my eyes. For those of you who watched SCG Live back when Gavin was a regular commentator you'll know that he routinely interrupted other commentators and directed all conversation toward his own personal experiences with cards and tournaments etc. I was so sick of that guy making everything about him in some disgusting attempt at proving himself to the world or some crap "Yeah that play was awesome, I remember when I did something similar only entirely more awesome in some random tournament..I'm cool!". This set may as well have been named FTV: Things that Gavin likes!

Thanks Gavin Verhey, you suck.

:laugh::laugh:

Woeful product. Hymn, Wire and Elves are plain ugly, period. It's nice that Impulse doesn't sport some random half-naked barely legal teen (as is the new MtG fashion for last years), otoh, the lady is... ok, lets not start this. Kessig Wolf Run? Sorry? What's that? It's from that other game, isn't it? But at least it has nice illustration. A big green dude might be different, sadly they need to print something good and recent, but I'd love to see something better than just Chameleon.
In fact, this is like when you throw 20 random (even thogh powerful) cards on a table. Nothing that links them together, no idea behind them. I don't like it.



kick out the crap , make that beta frame for nostalgia and earn both some of my respect and money...
I got better idea.
Dear WotC, return to the old frames and black borders first, then over next few years reprint all the stuff since 8th Edition.


PS: Straight from the bottom of the article:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/footers/M14/EN_M14_ArticleFooter_GameDay_Top.jpg
"half-naked barely legal teen" is the one fashion, the other is "a wet dream of a dude with fixation on weapons, armour, glasses and DD sized bosom". :rolleyes:

[jamesh]

+1. That Tangle Wire art is godawful.


i just commented somewhere else, the art is very mtg 2013
i hate it but maybe new kids and casuals will like it
wizards continue their strategy (as with modern masters) of spoiling the hot card(s) early and then later spoils are rubbish
personally i'm not interested in promotional product, but i'm sure it will sell well for jace and venser (more horrible art)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Did anyone on the entire internet guess that was Impulse art?

Also that flavor text makes no sense. "I call it preparation." Okay then why are you calling it impulse. Like, acting on impulse, doing things as they occur to you?

Tits and ass Tangle Wire shot, why?

Someone set Venser on fire.


OTOH the Gilded Lotus and Fyndhorn Elves art are very sweet, and the Hymn and Akroma's Vengeance bits are okay. I'm not really sure how I feel about the new Edict art.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Elves are plain ugly, period.

What dude no shut up.

[Aggro_zombies]

Char? Wolf Run? Ultimatum? Chameleon Colossus? If I wanted foil versions of those I would pay the 50 cents and that would be that, they wouldn't have the hideous set symbol either.
Ultimatum and Colossus are (arguably) good cards for their years. Had Bitterblossom come out sooner, it should have been in over Colossus, but Morningtide was out the following year and thus pitted Faeries against 5CC for that slot. Char was a big red spell during its heyday in Standard, although hardly what I'd call iconic; Lightning Helix showed up in many of the same decks and is far more memorable. Wolf Run, though, just actually baffles me. Looking at the lists he pulled...he shows a RG deck with Wolf Run in it to justify GSZ, then the next year shows a RG deck with GSZ in it to justify Wolf Run. Really? That's the best you can do? No Lingering Souls, arguably a more important Standard card from that period of the year? I mean, RG Wolf Run was basically a worse Valakut deck, but Jace boots Valakut out of a slot, so I guess you'd want to have some other nod to some aspect of the Never-Ending Tier 1.5 RG Ramp Decks. Still, having that deck in there twice is a bit...lazy, for lack of a better word.

But yeah, a lot of these choice are strange. Wall of Blossoms is fine, I guess, since Cursed Scroll and Survival are both on the Reserved List, but why not Oath of Druids (or was that the next year)? Similarly, in the Thran Dynamo deck that was shown, Wildfire is the iconic card - indeed, the deck was named after it. Fact or Fiction over Fires also strikes me as odd, although I guess any Zvi deck from that era is sufficient. Chainer's Edict...going to second the change of art being bad, but I guess I can sort of see what he was getting at in that justification, even if that era is remembered primarily for UG Madness and UB Tog.

It's just...a lot of the cards he's highlighted aren't mainstays in the decks he's showcasing, they're support cards. Slide and/or Lightning Rift were the important cards in the RW deck shown for Vengeance, for example; the same is true for Wall of Blossoms, Gilded Lotus, Thran Dynamo, Dark Ritual, Impulse, and Hymn. I can see some of that for the era covered by the Reserved List because many of the iconic cards from that time are either on the List or have been previously printed in a FtV (such as Necro and Tinker), but man, that doesn't help this product any.

It's like they said, "Okay, we have a Jace in here, that's gonna drive the price up to four or five times MSRP at least. What can we add to keep it from getting even more ridiculous?"

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Akroma's Vengeance is at least another WoG for the pimpers/EDH group, while Rift/Slide would be a waste. But yes, you're right, Vengeance is just a support card.

[Darkenslight]

The reasoning given in the article is sound (based on a major championship), but what it amounts to is a horribad mess. Edict in over 'Tog? Char over Helix? Lotus over, well, anything? Wall over Survival or Recurring Nightmare?

Artworks are pretty adequate, if a little mediocre for the most part.

[Lemnear]

No FoW is a downer.

FOIL Hymn, Jace, Swords, wire, Ritual and GSZ is def. worth it.

FoF, Ultimatum, Carmo Collosus etc. are 50c crap

[Barook]

Wizards wouldn't be happy if they didn't include a bunch of "FUCK YOU!"-cards to troll its consumers.

The new Hymn art is okay (although the wolf one would have been more iconic), Fyndhorn Elves are ugly as fuck and the Tangle Wire bondage is just plain dumb. Chainer's Edict art makes sense considering the old one doesn't show Chainer.

I like how they even linked the video to reason the inclusion of Char despite Lightning Helix being the key card here. :rolleyes: Fun fact: Char has already been the 15th anniversary foil. Now they're going to do it again on the 20th? :eyebrow:

Thran Dynamo is a pure EDH card. It should have been Wildfire, not some random ass mana artifact.

It's sad how they can get away with churning out shitty product by including one money card.

@Lemnear: FoW would have been the bomb alongside Jace.

40$ infinite supply package with FoW and JMS on MODO? I would take 20!

[(nameless one)]

The reasoning given in the article is sound (based on a major championship), but what it amounts to is a horribad mess. Edict in over 'Tog? Char over Helix? Lotus over, well, anything? Wall over Survival or Recurring Nightmare?

Artworks are pretty adequate, if a little mediocre for the most part.

I agree with most of these but they can't reprint SotF or RecNite. They're both in the reserved list.

RecSur was probably the hardest to represent as most of the pieces there are banned.

Although Gilded Lotus is another representation of Black Lotus so I understand why they shoe-in-ed it there.

Also, it would have been cool to see Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero over Tangle Wire there and have Jitte in the Ink Eyes slot. Equipments are part of the game too. And Sivvi was one of the most dominating Legendary creature in its time.


No FoW is a downer.

FOIL Hymn, Jace, Swords, wire, Ritual and GSZ is def. worth it.

FoF, Ultimatum, Carmo Collosus etc. are 50c crap

I wouldn't foil my Wires to that art. That art is just bad.

[Barook]

If they wanted to print further money, they could have reprinted Port instead of Dynamo.

Hell, a foil Brainstorm would have been a nice card.

[kiblast]

FOIL Nielsen Stp? Om nom nom

[nedleeds]

What would a box set of Magic's history be if there wasn't a single mana Elf in it?


Haaaaahhaaaa what a hideous shitbox. Nice $400 preorder.

[Megadeus]

I'm fine with them not putting just infinite value by just putting shit tons of expensive cards, but some of these choices seem terrible. Like has been said about GSZ and wolf run. GSZ is fine, that card was awesome, but wolf run... god... lingering souls, delver, hell vapor snag!! The delver decks are much more iconic than wolf run decks

[MirrorMask]

Absolute garbage! Jace won't save the day because you can just buy it as a single at the same price. The whole point for me is to get a bunch of interesting cards at a lower price than the singles' market price. For me it's a huge fail.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also, it would have been cool to see Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero over Tangle Wire there and have Jitte in the Ink Eyes slot. Equipments are part of the game too. And Sivvi was one of the most dominating Legendary creature in its time.
Yep, you're 100% right about this! :thumbs up:


I wouldn't foil my Wires to that art. That art is just bad.
Sadly,you're also 100% right about this... :cry:

[Lemnear]

Absolute garbage! Jace won't save the day because you can just buy it as a single at the same price. The whole point for me is to get a bunch of interesting cards at a lower price than the singles' market price. For me it's a huge fail.

Yes, you can buy yourself a FOIL FtV Jace for the price of a whole box.

I'll take a box then, thanks.

(In all honest, I'll get a few boxes and see the price rocket with all the playables (which players want as Sets) in there. Considering the other FtV sets still tanking at ~100€ with MUCH less playables in them, this FtV is pure gold bought at ~110€ per box.

[MirrorMask]

Yes, you can buy yourself a FOIL FtV Jace for the price of a whole box.

I'll take a box then, thanks.


The rest of the box is garbage so the value you get is.. what? 20-30 bucks that come from Venser+ 50 cent rares/uncommons that we already have in excess? And even Venser is mediocre. At least for Legacy players, not to mention the rest (except commander maybe?).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I confess: Looking at the bigger picture of the new Fyndhorn, redhead's not bad.

EDIT: Funny thing I just realized - the article about this product is the greatest indictment of Reserved list ever. There are other things to mention, but these stay above all other:
#4: 1996 - zero Necropotence?
#6: 1998 - Cantrip Wall instead of any RecSur namesake

FTV 20:
1993: Black Lotus (kthxbye...)
1994: Mana Drain (screw calendary!)
1995: Necropotence
1996: Force of Will
1997: Undiscovered Paradise
1998: Survival of the Fittest
1999: City of Traitors
2000: Tinker
2001: Fact or Fiction
2002: Psychatog
2003: Exalted Angel
2004: Grim Monolith
2005: Umezawa's Jitte
2006: Char? Yes!
2007: Tarmogoyf
2008: Thoughtseize
2009 - 2013: whatever spectacular money cards you'll gather in Gatherer...

FTV by your very own.

[MightyPenguin007]

I can agree to an extent that a good deal of these cards are unplayable, but will fit nicely in the EDH and Cube formats. Still, I can't complain too much seeing as how I got mine at MSRP +$5. That's a pretty good deal. So I'll be able to flip most of these cards and get some more Dual Lands and Fetchlands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There is an awful lot of complaining here about a box marked to sell at $75 that includes a foil Jace + a lot of other Legacy, EDH and Cube playables.


Also why would you want Tog over Chainer's Edict, the latter actually sees play in most Cubes. The former is like ninth in the running for one of the weakest color combinations. Hey I remember the Tog decks being really good in every format too but that was ten fucking years ago.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I confess: Looking at the bigger picture of the new Fyndhorn, redhead's not bad.

EDIT: Funny thing I just realized - the article about this product is the greatest indictment of Reserved list ever. There are other things to mention, but these stay above all other:
#4: 1996 - zero Necropotence?
#6: 1998 - Cantrip Wall instead of any RecSur namesake

FTV 20:
1993: Black Lotus (kthxbye...)
1994: Mana Drain (screw calendary!)
1995: Necropotence
1996: Force of Will
1997: Undiscovered Paradise
1998: Survival of the Fittest
1999: City of Traitors
2000: Tinker
2001: Fact or Fiction
2002: Psychatog
2003: Exalted Angel
2004: Grim Monolith
2005: Umezawa's Jitte
2006: Char? Yes!
2007: Tarmogoyf
2008: Thoughtseize
2009 - 2013: whatever spectacular money cards you'll gather in Gatherer...

FTV by your very own.

I'm pretty sure people would tear Wizards a new asshole about nepotism if some people could pay $75 for a box with a market value around $1400

[alphacat]

Man, you guys complain so freaking much. First you complain that the set is 200+, now you complain it doesn't have drain or fow. Are you guys serious? How much do you think the set will be if those were in it?

I personally think it's a great set in terms of cards, stp, dr, hymn are all iconic cards. The only thing I thought they didn't do well on was it didn't invoke nostalgia as much as I would have liked. Tbh, Serra angel, stasis, dr teeth, monger, are all inexpensive cards to reprint that defined their era. I also felt the art was actually very lackluster, tangled wired received a horrible art, hymn was very mediocre as well.

However, I feel like criticizing wizards for not including money cards when have is already included sound like spoiled brats to me.

[Picc]

Honestly other then jace & Hynm its a largely disappointing product. Jace ensures the price will be many times msrp, the rest honestly isn't worth the price of admission let alone what its going for. Meh, at least it was good deal for the folks who managed to get it at msrp and it might get the price of foil Jace down a bit.

[Lemnear]

After another Careful read some of the reasoning given for the choices are Sound (with past Promo prints in the back of your head). Still, with Grim Monolith appearing several times without a chance to see a reprint is a slap in the face of the games history. My wishboard would have been without considering the reserved list and the lists they picked to represent the Year:

1993: Dark Ritual
1994: Swords to Plowshares
1995: Hymn to Tourach
1996: Force of Will
1997: Vampric Tutor (much more essential than Impulse)
1998: Recurring Nightmare
1999: Grim Monolith
2000: Tangle Wire
2001: Fact or Fiction / Meddling Mage
2002: Counterspell / Chainer's Edict
2003: Exalted Angel / A. Vengeance
2004: Metalworker
2005: Umezawa's Jitte
2006: Lightning Helix
2007: Tarmogoyf
2008: Thoughtseize (had no Chance because of Hymn)
2009: Cryptic Command
2010: Jace
2011: GSZ
2012: Primeval Titan

That would have been insane.

[bfeingersh]

I wish they had chosen better for STP/Dark Rit/Hymn, couple iffy choices, and 2 cards from Wolf Run Ramp seems like a wasted opportunity, but all in all I'm happy with it.

[Aggro_zombies]

After another Careful read some of the reasoning given for the choices are Sound (with past Promo prints in the back of your head). Still, with Grim Monolith appearing several times without a chance to see a reprint is a slap in the face of the games history. My wishboard would have been without considering the reserved list and the lists they picked to represent the Year:

1993: Dark Ritual
1994: Swords to Plowshares
1995: Hymn to Tourach
1996: Force of Will
1997: Vampric Tutor (much more essential than Impulse)
1998: Recurring Nightmare
1999: Grim Monolith
2000: Tangle Wire
2001: Fact or Fiction / Meddling Mage
2002: Counterspell / Chainer's Edict
2003: Exalted Angel / A. Vengeance
2004: Metalworker
2005: Umezawa's Jitte
2006: Lightning Helix
2007: Tarmogoyf
2008: Thoughtseize (had no Chance because of Hymn)
2009: Cryptic Command
2010: Jace
2011: GSZ
2012: Primeval Titan

That would have been insane.
Rec. Nightmare, Metalworker, and Monolith are on the Reserved List. I know you weren't considering it, but there's not much point to this exercise if you don't.

Prime Time would be better in 2011, when it was still seeing play. Lingering Souls would have been a better inclusion for early 2012 (when they probably worked on this product).

Tarmogoyf was just reprinted, so I could see them not wanting to do that. Honestly, there isn't a ton in that year that would be exciting - maybe the black Command?

[Lemnear]

Rec. Nightmare, Metalworker, and Monolith are on the Reserved List. I know you weren't considering it, but there's not much point to this exercise if you don't.

Prime Time would be better in 2011, when it was still seeing play. Lingering Souls would have been a better inclusion for early 2012 (when they probably worked on this product).

Tarmogoyf was just reprinted, so I could see them not wanting to do that. Honestly, there isn't a ton in that year that would be exciting - maybe the black Command?

I'm aware of that all. My point was, that of you take the RL and recent promos into account, there was barely more to hope for, so I can't see why peeps complain. For gods sake, after the terrible Dragons, Legends and still questionable Realms WotC put a dozen Eternal staples or Legacy/Vintage/Commander in there and still there's whinning

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm aware of that all. My point was, that of you take the RL and recent promos into account, there was barely more to hope for, so I can't see why peeps complain. For gods sake, after the terrible Dragons, Legends and still questionable Realms WotC put a dozen Eternal staples or Legacy/Vintage/Commander in there and still there's whinning
Oh, I see.

Well, I'm pretty sure if you cut the Jace from this product, the remaining 19 cards are worth more than the $40 MSRP, so that's cause to celebrate. I would say that Char is the only really questionable inclusion in the sense that very few target audiences are really excited about it; many of the other odd cards appeal to EDH players (Dynamo, Lotus), Cube players (Edict), and various flavors of casual players, so they're at least understandable given that you don't want this to be FtV: Treat for Hardcore Spikes Who've Been Playing for a Long Time Plus Jace to Move This Thing Off Shelves.

[force_of_phil]

Love the new art for Fyndhorn Elves. They actually look like Fyndhorn elves, complete with the snow-covered juniper. Venser and Chainer's Edict are upgrades too. Tangle Wire... not so much.

Red got thoroughly boned, having only one card, and the worst one in the product by a good margin. If this is supposed to represent 20 years of magic, I guess it had to be that way.

[BlackFlameAshura]

I absolutely despise Gavin's arguments for a lot of these choices. It sounds like he mainly chose cards to put in here that were EDH and/or cube staples. It seems to be his argument for almost every card that he's mentioned.

Swords: "A must-have for Cube? Yep. A popular Commander card? Absolutely!"
Hymn: "Whether you're Cubing or playing Legacy, Hymn remains a brutally effective card to this day."
Fyndhorn Elves: "I've heard numerous Cube players wish there was another piece they could use."
Impulse: "Impulse was a staple tournament card in its day, and a card you still see in Cube and Commander decks everywhere."
Tangle Wire: "But I'll say this: Zac Hill taught me over and over that this card is unbeatable in Cube, and I haven't found his claim to be far off point."
Fact or Fiction: "One evokes nostalgia, and when we were already switching out so many other pieces of art for Cube updates or new commissions, it would be nice to keep some of the more iconic older ones." (doesn't exactly count, but shows they weighed it based on cubing)
Akroma's Vengeance: "I look forward to casting this in a Cube draft soon."
Ink-Eyes: "Ink-Eyes is still a popular Commander and Cube card to this day"
Venser: "And, of course, he's an ever-popular Cube and Commander card as well."
Chameleon Colossus: "as a card you see often in Cubes and every now and again in Commander"
GSZ: "It's also a staple for formats like Cube"

He mentions Legacy for a handful of cards, but it's pretty clear what the draw is here and I don't know how I feel about it. On one hand I'll be picking the set up for my cube which will probably run a good chunk of this set, but on the other hand the set is an absolutely awful and unfaithful representation of Magic's history and the decks put on display here. About half of it sounds about right, but the other half seems like they completely chose the wrong card. Chainer's Edict, Akroma's Vengeance, and Impulse strike me as some of the bigger offenders (where they probably should've went with Dr. Teeth, Astral Slide, and either Prosperity or Drain Life). I get that the alternatives aren't always really playable, but that really isn't the point. This set isn't about picking cards for their playability, it's to show off the history of Magic. While I like getting a cool new art foil Akroma's Vengeance, Astral Slide WAS that deck and could easily have been reprinted. So what if its current applications are next to none? I'd rather have the set be showing off the game's history. And if nothing else, it's a million times more playable than the Shivan Gorge they gave us in Realms last year...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like Olle Rådes deck. I think I'll build it. I wished to keep some crappy decks in case our local chicken-table meta revives, and this will be a perfect companion for the Creaturegeddon. Crappy, RG, lots of creatures, Jokulhaups. What's not to like? (Except the Spiders. They're really awful. What flyers am I missing in IA-AL block?)

[clavio]

2004: Metalworker


Metalworker would have been pretty good in Mirrodin.

[Lemnear]

Metalworker would have been pretty good in Mirrodin.

Indeed. Just marked the hilarity of WotC presenting a list with playsets of Urza's Saga cards which are also part of the reserved list but a single Gilded Lotus from the Pro Tour New Orleans as justification to choose a pretty random 5cc Artifact as posterchild to represent Mirrodin with all it's artifacts which define the shape of Eternal up to this point. There are a dozen other choices which would have made a lot more sense, especially with the Dynamo already covering "mana artifacts"

[Richard Cheese]

Love the new art for Fyndhorn Elves. They actually look like Fyndhorn elves, complete with the snow-covered juniper. Venser and Chainer's Edict are upgrades too. Tangle Wire... not so much.

Red got thoroughly boned, having only one card, and the worst one in the product by a good margin. If this is supposed to represent 20 years of magic, I guess it had to be that way.

Too bad they're on the super ugly new frames, with super ugly FTV foiling process.

[Darkenslight]

Metalworker would have been pretty good in Mirrodin.

Metalworker is on the Reserved List.

[Lemnear]

Metalworker is on the Reserved List.

We all knew. I even mentioned that in the post with the list.

Again: with WotC themselves even talking Extended decks to justify their decisions and with the RL and recent printed promos Taken into account, we players could not expect much more, even if Char, Lotus, Dynamo etc. are lousy choices for their time regardless.

How dumb is it from WotC's side to present 3 times a list in which 4 Grum Monolith were the backbone of the deck, but them giving us Tangle Wire, Dynamo and Lotus instead?

Representing 20 years of Magic without the Chance to include true icons like Grim Monolith, Metalworker, Mana Drain, Power9, Duals, Bazaar, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, Tolarian Academy, Gaea's Cradle, Survival of the Fittest, Recurring Nightmare and several dozens more leaves a bad taste, no matter how big you write Commander, Casual and Cube on the product.

[Dark Ritual]

We all knew. I even mentioned that in the post with the list.

Again: with WotC themselves even talking Extended decks to justify their decisions and with the RL and recent printed promos Taken into account, we players could not expect much more, even if Char, Lotus, Dynamo etc. are lousy choices for their time regardless.

How dumb is it from WotC's side to present 3 times a list in which 4 Grum Monolith were the backbone of the deck, but them giving us Tangle Wire, Dynamo and Lotus instead?

Representing 20 years of Magic without the Chance to include true icons like Grim Monolith, Metalworker, Mana Drain, Power9, Duals, Bazaar, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, Tolarian Academy, Gaea's Cradle, Survival of the Fittest, Recurring Nightmare and several dozens more leaves a bad taste, no matter how big you write Commander, Casual and Cube on the product.

Grim monolith would have been a shoe in if not for the RL. And WotC has made it abundantly clear the list isn't going anywhere, otherwise they would have done something before this product was released to reprint recurring nightmare in foil in here because of RecSur, grim monolith was in a slew of decks, metalworker as well. I wish recurring nightmare had been in same with monolith. But WotC has their hands tied.

Okay so cube was a justification for some inclusions. Well, what's the problem with that? I see no problem with that, same with commander. They pitched legacy a bone in hymn to tourach, another foil dark rit and swords to plowshares, and JTMS.

Tangle wire is a fine inclusion. Foils from nemesis retail for insanely high amounts so it's nice to have another foil option available for considerably less.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, what's the problem with that?
There's no troubl with Cube or Commander, but with the fact that this pile doesn't represent the last two decades of tournament Magic. Otoh, if they meant it like "this is how the game looked like, from kitchen tables to PTs", then ok.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Okay so cube was a justification for some inclusions. Well, what's the problem with that?

Pretty much what BDP said. I've got no problem picking it up as is for Cube and, hell, while you're still missing a lot of other important pieces and a lot of the stuff in the boxes are relatively inexpensive online, you can buy 4 of the set on MTGO for $160 and get a lot of your stuff for various Esper builds practically right out of the box (mainly Jaces). That's not too bad, so in a lot of aspects from the playability sense, the set's actually quite great.

My problem is that they're advertising it like it's doing some serious representing of winning decks from all of these eras. While some of them aren't too bad, cards like Chainer's Edict, Akroma's Vengeance, Gilded Lotus, and Char (among others) are pretty bad representations in that while they saw a lot of play and were quite strong (except the really questionable Lotus), they weren't even close to being THE key card of the decks. From those eras, we probably should've seen Psychatog, Astral Slide, something from Affinity (going to go with Disciple here), and Lightning Helix (because while that one wasn't quite the deck's key card, it was absolutely the key card for the aforementioned win AND was still in that PT's actual winner's deck). I'm just saying that I simply dislike it misrepresenting what it's being marketed as simply for the sake of playability in more casual formats like Cube and Commander.

[Dan Turner]

I may get a set of Dark Rituals and Swords to plowshares but other then that I have everything else in here I would want. I just got my signed foil Dynamo for my EDH deck.

[Finn]

The next time you see a clearly insane card on a spoiler, think of this post. This product is going to be amazingly profitable for them. I think that the card choices make perfect sense if the purpose of them is to get wotc to cash in on the secondary market value of cards. The formula seems pretty clear to me.

-You find an excuse to create the set. I like "20 year anniversary" as well as the next one.
-You plop a premium base card in there to entice savvy players to consider buying it.
-Your marketing campaign tries hard to convince players that the rest of the cards are not the chaff they actually are.


Voila! $100 (or whatever) for 20 pieces of cardboard for an *obscene* profit margin. I think the entire enterprise is genius.

In fact, if I am in charge of the direction of the wotc division at Hasbro, I see a clear path to amazing profits indefinitely.

-Every year or so "accidentally" print a ridiculously overpowered card in minuscule ultrarare quantities that "slipped" through the future-future league unrecognized or was dropped in afterward somehow.
-As long as Modern/Legacy/Commander exist in their current state, this is a card that is guaranteed to have a very high market value.
-Package it with a few wannabes and rake it in.
-All you need is market research to make sure that the player base can withstand periodic alienation in Standard. Oh wait, they have oodles of that.

Now that they have figured out how to capitalize on printing ridiculous cards, they would be submoronic to not do this. You can count on seeing lots of "premium" products like this in the future.

[Dan Turner]

The next time you see a clearly insane card on a spoiler, think of this post. This product is going to be amazingly profitable for them. I think that the card choices make perfect sense if the purpose of them is to get wotc to cash in on the secondary market value of cards. The formula seems pretty clear to me.

-You find an excuse to create the set. I like "20 year anniversary" as well as the next one.
-You plop a premium base card in there to entice savvy players to consider buying it.
-Your marketing campaign tries hard to convince players that the rest of the cards are not the chaff they actually are.


Voila! $100 (or whatever) for 20 pieces of cardboard for an *obscene* profit margin. I think the entire enterprise is genius.

In fact, if I am in charge of the direction of the wotc division at Hasbro, I see a clear path to amazing profits indefinitely.

-Every year or so "accidentally" print a ridiculously overpowered card in minuscule ultrarare quantities that "slipped" through the future-future league unrecognized or was dropped in afterward somehow.
-As long as Modern/Legacy/Commander exist in their current state, this is a card that is guaranteed to have a very high market value.
-Package it with a few wannabes and rake it in.
-All you need is market research to make sure that the player base can withstand periodic alienation in Standard. Oh wait, they have oodles of that.

Now that they have figured out how to capitalize on printing ridiculous cards, they would be submoronic to not do this. You can count on seeing lots of "premium" products like this in the future.


I am trying to figure out where Wizards profits on this. I believe MSRP is $35 or $40, that means wholesale is $20-$25 so Wizards is selling to distributors for around $15-$20 each. I think the total profit per box is only on the scale of about $2 or so.


The people making the money are the brick and mortar stores selling above MSRP and the people who grab them up to re-sell via E-bay and such.

[Barook]

The next time you see a clearly insane card on a spoiler, think of this post. This product is going to be amazingly profitable for them. I think that the card choices make perfect sense if the purpose of them is to get wotc to cash in on the secondary market value of cards. The formula seems pretty clear to me.

-You find an excuse to create the set. I like "20 year anniversary" as well as the next one.
-You plop a premium base card in there to entice savvy players to consider buying it.
-Your marketing campaign tries hard to convince players that the rest of the cards are not the chaff they actually are.


Voila! $100 (or whatever) for 20 pieces of cardboard for an *obscene* profit margin. I think the entire enterprise is genius.

In fact, if I am in charge of the direction of the wotc division at Hasbro, I see a clear path to amazing profits indefinitely.

-Every year or so "accidentally" print a ridiculously overpowered card in minuscule ultrarare quantities that "slipped" through the future-future league unrecognized or was dropped in afterward somehow.
-As long as Modern/Legacy/Commander exist in their current state, this is a card that is guaranteed to have a very high market value.
-Package it with a few wannabes and rake it in.
-All you need is market research to make sure that the player base can withstand periodic alienation in Standard. Oh wait, they have oodles of that.

Now that they have figured out how to capitalize on printing ridiculous cards, they would be submoronic to not do this. You can count on seeing lots of "premium" products like this in the future.
While there is truth in it, the main problem I see with this the "limited" print run. Cards on the JMS level are unhealthy for tournament attendance and thus ultimatively bad for Wizards.

Sure, they make tons of cash, but they could even make more with a bigger print run. That said, the same product on MODO is 100% pure profit without even trying and they're going to sell shitloads of it.

I do expect the upcoming Commander product to have a few money cards as well (think Flusterstorm or Scavenging Ooze).

[nedleeds]

Cards on the JMS level are unhealthy for tournament attendance

?

Explain ... I don't know anyone who doesn't come to play Vintage or Legacy because of JTMS.

[nedleeds]

Tangle wire is a fine inclusion. Foils from nemesis retail for insanely high amounts so it's nice to have another foil option available for considerably less.

In a way this is a paradox. Jimmy McFoilballs wants to look like a pimp and foil his <whatever>. By buying the $3.00 FTV Tangle Wire he just ends up looking poor because everyone knows it's a cheap shitty version of the original.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, Finn might be right. Yes, WotC may have just the two bucks on these products, on the other hand, if they make them interesting, they'd sell large quantities of them.

Btw, I'm not against interesting products. I just don't find this one interesting. You'd get Jace, yes, but then it's just lots of not exactly amazing cards, some of them don't even satisfy the conditions under which they should have been put in the FTV20: they don't exactly represent their era/deck, see Char.
In fact, the main troublemaker is JTMS, because all other cards look clunky compared to him. Also some of the illustrations are not really good, but as this is a matter of taste, it's kinda moot.

[Lemnear]

Wtf?

WotC throws half a dozen Legacy, Commander staples into a single box and peeps whine about it being mediocre because of fillers like Char and devauluing their Pimp stuff?

Players should be thankful that WotC learned from Realms and Legends; even those boxes still cost ~100€ on MCM so I doubt paying 'bout the same for FtV:20 is unreasonable

[Dark Ritual]

Please tell me how astral slide or lightning rift over akroma's vengeance would have made this product better. Yes, those were the engines of rifter as a deck. No, nobody wants or uses astral slide or rift in cube MAYBE in commander but that's about it and foils are super cheap. The same is true of psychatog; nobody uses psychatog anymore outside of cube and even there some people don't run Dr. Teeth. Again, those foils are super cheap and you have options in terms of foils (newframe FNM or oldframe set foil.) Akroma's vengeance in foil was driven up by EDH players and cube players, and is a card people actually use there as well as being a useful tool in the rifter decks as a sweeper/while not as big a keystone as slide and rift in the deck, it was still a driving force towards its success as a deck.

I get that FTV foils aren't as pimp as original set foils. But not everyone is loaded that likes foils so spending 50 on a foil nemesis tangle wire isn't even an option. They can, however, afford the 5 that this tangle wire will cost.

WotC doesn't make much on FTV's. They're going to make the same amount on this FTV in comparison to FTV: Legends per unit. It's the stores that profit the most off of these as a thank you from WotC. The MSRP is 40 dollars, so there isn't much room for profit on their end with the middle man in the mix as well.

[Darkenslight]

Please tell me how astral slide or lightning rift over akroma's vengeance would have made this product better. Yes, those were the engines of rifter as a deck. No, nobody wants or uses astral slide or rift in cube MAYBE in commander but that's about it and foils are super cheap. The same is true of psychatog; nobody uses psychatog anymore outside of cube and even there some people don't run Dr. Teeth. Again, those foils are super cheap and you have options in terms of foils (newframe FNM or oldframe set foil.) Akroma's vengeance in foil was driven up by EDH players and cube players, and is a card people actually use there as well as being a useful tool in the rifter decks as a sweeper/while not as big a keystone as slide and rift in the deck, it was still a driving force towards its success as a deck.

I get that FTV foils aren't as pimp as original set foils. But not everyone is loaded that likes foils so spending 50 on a foil nemesis tangle wire isn't even an option. They can, however, afford the 5 that this tangle wire will cost.

WotC doesn't make much on FTV's. They're going to make the same amount on this FTV in comparison to FTV: Legends per unit. It's the stores that profit the most off of these as a thank you from WotC. The MSRP is 40 dollars, so there isn't much room for profit on their end with the middle man in the mix as well.

I'm pretty sure this was the initial rationale for the From the Vault box sets after FTV: Dragons. That they were a thank-you to those stores who run tournaments often.

[goblinsplayer]

This ftv is hideous. From yoga pants tangle wire and a shitload of cards just being cube staples and nothing else. Plus Jace jacking up the price so it becomes unaffordable for a lot of people. Plus, they print it in hideous ftv foiling. If I ever lose to a ftv Jace, I will rip it up and go buy them the original copy from the vendor. Yuck.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm not arguing that Vengeance is worse than Rift/Slide, I even wrote that it's nice to have new wrath for the EDH/Cube horde.
I don't have anything against Char, WotC may put there Flare or even a checklist, I won't be buying that box. For the last time: my main resons to dislike this product are these - I don't think this pile represents twenty years of (tournament) Magic, I think that several (maybe pack of) illustrations are hideous, I believe some of the spells don't exactly represent their deck (for good or for bad), and I think that the whole FTV isn't balanced and Jace is like a sore thumb (as he definitely makes all other card "meh" compared to him).
Other than that, no trouble at all: price will be dictated by the unseen hand of market, people who'll like it will buy it, Sun will shine, fbirds will sing, haters gonna hate...

[(nameless one)]

I'm pretty sure this Box set was more than the "famous card of year" box set.

I don't know if you notice but if you look at all the cards, they represent most of the card type and the generic card functionality.




dark ritual
swords to plowshares
hymn to tourach
fyndhorn elves
impulse
wall of blossoms
thran dynamo
tangle wire
fact or fiction
chainer's edict
akroma's vengeance
gilded lotus
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
char
Venser, Shaper Savant
Chameleon Colossus
Cruel Ultimatum
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Green Sun's Zenith
Kessig Wolf Run




They got everything covered. From ritual, removal, dig spell, search spell, resistor; I can go on and on. It represents every other iconic card effect in the game. I think that's what this box is about and I appreciate that.

Not every product is tailor made for you. Sometimes, before you complain you should look at it on another perspective.

[Lemnear]

I'm pretty sure this Box set was more than the "famous card of year" box set.

I don't know if you notice but if you look at all the cards, they represent most of the card type and the generic card functionality.



They got everything covered. From ritual, removal, dig spell, search spell, resistor; I can go on and on. It represents every other iconic card effect in the game. I think that's what this box is about and I appreciate that.

Not every product is tailor made for you. Sometimes, before you complain you should look at it on another perspective.

I disagree. I see a lot of effects covered multiple times (carddraw, removal, manaboost) and other iconic effects like Landdestruction (Sinkhole, Wasteland), Counters (FoW, counterspell, Cryptic command), Tutors (Vampric Tutor, Doomsday, Grim Tutor) and others not covered at all.

I Join the Chorus of this set not representing 20 years of M:TG at all

[(nameless one)]

Now that you pointed that out, I thought Counterspell was there.

Thanks for making me look like a fool WotC! Now I'm pissed!

Though seriously, doesn't GSZenith count as a tutor? Doesn't Venser count as a permission spell?

I do guess WotC hates land destruction so much that they still try to erase it from the game.

I am surprised that an equipment didn't make it there. If it was my way, I'd remove Tangle Wire with Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero (legendary creature) and add Jitte on the Ink Eyes slot.

And maybe Avalanche Rider on the early slots to represent Ponza/land destruction. Hell, Wildfire would have been my pick instead of Dynamo as there's already a mana rock there (the Lotus)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think I wrote something like that (I mean: this box has all the needed stuff ot be a small precon - removal, creatures, etc.), i just don't like all the choices. (And some pictures are ugly.)



I disagree. I see a lot of effects covered multiple times (carddraw, removal, manaboost) and other iconic effects like Landdestruction (Sinkhole, Wasteland), Counters (FoW, counterspell, Cryptic command), Tutors (Vampric Tutor, Doomsday, Grim Tutor) and others not covered at all.

I am surprised that an equipment didn't make it there. If it was my way, I'd remove Tangle Wire with Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero (legendary creature) and add Jitte on the Ink Eyes slot.

And maybe Avalanche Rider on the early slots to represent Ponza/land destruction. Hell, Wildfire would have been my pick instead of Dynamo as there's already a mana rock there (the Lotus)
This.
But GSZ is tutor. Still: no LD sucks - no matter how much they hate it, it was (and still is) an important part of game. Venser's good for C-spell and it also represents all the Capsizes and stuff.

Remove Dynamo, add Wildfire, remove Tangle Wire, add Lin-Sivvi, remove Ink-Eyes, add Jitte. Would the deck be too good with JTMS and Jitte in it?

[Lemnear]

I think I wrote something like that (I mean: this box has all the needed stuff ot be a small precon - removal, creatures, etc.), i just don't like all the choices. (And some pictures are ugly.)




This.
But GSZ is tutor. Still: no LD sucks - no matter how much they hate it, it was (and still is) an important part of game. Venser's good for C-spell and it also represents all the Capsizes and stuff.

Remove Dynamo, add Wildfire, remove Tangle Wire, add Lin-Sivvi, remove Ink-Eyes, add Jitte. Would the deck be too good with JTMS and Jitte in it?

Nah, Jitte is a affordable GP Promo and posterchild of Kamigawa. I would have loved to see it in there.

I agree that GSZ appears to be the Tutor in there (stupid me) even if we could be picky and Stick it into the category "manaboost" ;D and Venser covering the "counterspell". Still very hairsplitting.

I agree with the suggested changes

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I agree with the suggested changes
Sadly that's all we may do about it... :frown:
I'm still awed by JTMS. This one card completely outshines anything that could be put into the box, and it also makes the price tag intimidating. But well, for those who like these packs, this must be a real pleasure. Once you'll get over thefact that several illustrations are not very nice and few card choices are strange, this may be nice purchase.

[H]

Honestly, everything after Jace, Hymn, Ritual, and Swords, is just incidental and largely irrelevent to me. Sure, it would be great if everything in here was a bomb, but everyone knows that would never happen. Just wish they used the Tempest art for Ritual, since there is no promo for that one.

[Lemnear]

Sadly that's all we may do about it... :frown:


Wouldn't say that. We just had a very heated discussion about a certain topic ... That's fine. Nothing that stands between you and me either personal or regarding other topics (at least for me) :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wouldn't say that. We just had a very heated discussion about a certain topic ... That's fine. Nothing that stands between you and me either personal or regarding other topics (at least for me) :)
You misunderstood me. I meant that we can't change what WotC throw in the packs. :smile: And I find it sad, because the proposed change would make it better.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Why on earth this card had to happen!? It'll be so nice, cheap and balanced pack, but this dude made it so op...

[Amon Amarth]

What the fuck did they do to Tangle Wire? Atrocious.

[Michael Keller]

Set's garbage.

$0.02.

[Finn]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guaranteed a Jace with each purchase? If the price point is below $100, I have to seriously consider buying four of them. How is that garbage?

[Darkenslight]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guaranteed a Jace with each purchase? If the price point is below $100, I have to seriously consider buying four of them. How is that garbage?

Because thw whole thing could have been so much more epic, and actually worthy of a 20th Anniversary release. Is it value for money at $100? Sure. But it lacks a consistency that the other FTVs have had.

[SaberTooth]

why they use the ugliest art for dark ritual? OMFG and no brainstorm? :(

[phonics]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guaranteed a Jace with each purchase? If the price point is below $100, I have to seriously consider buying four of them. How is that garbage?

Pretty sure that there are only a few that were lucky to get it at msrp or less than 100$, most places are going to charge some adjusted price around 200$. The adjusted price and low print run mean it wont affect prices, and there isnt a point in buying the set when you can most likely get the singles you want for much cheaper. At that price, the draw is jace, but you can almost get 2 jaces for the price of market price of ftv 20, or a playset of the stp, rituals or whatever.

[guelahpapyrus]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guaranteed a Jace with each purchase? If the price point is below $100, I have to seriously consider buying four of them. How is that garbage?

Good luck finding one for MSRP.

[Lemnear]

The question is: how much are FOIL versions of Jace, StoP, Hymn, Dark Ritual and the "lesser relevant" Commander cards worth to you?

Getting them for about 100€ is still a reasonable deal unless you REALLY care for the foiling process

[Dark Ritual]

why they use the ugliest art for dark ritual? OMFG and no brainstorm? :(

The ugliest dark rit art is the judge foil and it isn't even close. When I saw that judge foil dark rit for the first time I wondered what crack the artist was on when they drew that piece.

No brainstorm is easy. They didn't want the set loaded with too much value and I highly suspect they saw the pricetags on FNM and masques foil brainstorm and auto slashed it. Also, why does brainstorm NEED to be in this set? There are much better cards to select for this set than brainstorm in terms of how iconic they are.

Any FTV is worth it at MSRP until they print FTV: Thrulls, Homarids, fallen empires, and homelands oh my!

If Jace was still worth 50-60, sure this set would be better. But too many people are going "OMG JACE IS IN THERE AND IS WORTH INFINITE~!~!~!~!!!!" so they're blinded to the quality of this box set.

The kamigawa slot could have easily been jitte and would have probably been gifts ungiven if it wasn't in FTV: Exiled because gifts ungiven was amazing in that standard then again being banned in commander and meh in cube make it less likely.

[Lemnear]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/From_the_Vault_Twenty_Full_Set.c8p263675.prod

Are you fucking kidding me? 500 boxes for sale @ 200€ p.p. and my LGS can't get even 1? Brillant distribution... *puke*

[Dan Turner]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/From_the_Vault_Twenty_Full_Set.c8p263675.prod

Are you fucking kidding me? 500 boxes for sale @ 200€ p.p. and my LGS can't get even 1? Brillant distribution... *puke*

unless your LGS is one of those who "never" get stuff like this but you know their ebay account sure does.

Our LGS said they are getting 24.

12 going to Ebay with the extra money being used to upgrade the board games and other stuff he provides for free for the gaming area.

6 are going to be used as tournament prizes

6 are silent auction with the start being MSRP inside the store, he said this way we can get them at what we are willing to pay for them.