sinkhole is bad and that makes me sad

[thefreakaccident]

I try to keep up with all the new additions, but nothing works anymore, straight manadenial IS a thing of the past. I feel that pure control, focusing on the board, is something that should never be pushed out entirely, but I fear that day has come. I personally have tested probably every single incarnation of lands, loam, stax, braids, with every single combination of land destruction and removal spells that this format has to offer, and board control is dead, entrely, utterly. Black is no longer a color for control, but a combo color. To explain further, it needs to be combined with fasts clocks either in the form of efficienti beats or quick combo, and has no merit on its own except for the occasional synergy with jace, mindsculpter.

I digress, but my point is valid, stax, pikula, land destruction is out of the picture for good. Is this a good thing? No! It is limiting the potential of the game by limiting the variety of ways in which a player can win the game, I.e. landlock them. And no, I don't feel like new gimmicky instant Win combos or 1 mana 3/2 beatsticks behind infinite countermagic is the right way to go. Black needs a low mana removal spell that can kill multiple large creatures, or they need to redesign an updated sinkole that kills 2 lands for 2 mana, because seriously, that's the only way sinkhole will ever compete again, if it gets better. Do we really want to play in a format where sinkhole is just plain bad/too slow? I call bullshit, and if I ever get the chance to make my own card it will be overpowered enough to make black land destruction viable again. I want to be able to clear my opponents boards again like In the olden days. Veteran explorer is a decent 'black deck' but it is seriously the only one, loses to combo and quick draws straight up, AND doesn't touch lands.


To sum everything I've just said up: I'm butthurt that theyve made infinite ways for people to dodge manadenial, but they haven't given any equally opposing tools to keep manadenial viable, and it has thus fallen to the wayside, hard. No, decks that pack 4stifle/4wasteland delver and cantrips ARE NOT what I'm talking about.

[allek]

Obviously I have no source on this but I know I've seen WOTC comment on land destruction as being boring for new/casual players and therefore it is highly unlikely that we'll see new playable LD-spells. EVER. That makes me a sad panda too, I love Sinkhole.

[Lemnear]

What are you expecting?

According to WotC casual players are bitching that Landdestruction and not being able to play your spells as a result of that mana denial is "unfun" (aside from Vintage's MUD decks, but WotC don't care for that format so it's ok there if you'll never be able to cast a spell against 2 dozen of sphere-effects) and they stopped printing land destruction up to the current point where all the tool-lands became a slight problem for Modern (and Legacy).

As a result, Landdestruction is still in the early 2000's while the threats of todays decks became better and cheaper with every expansion released and even Sinkhole with it's low cost is too slow for all the Delvers, Tarmogoyfs, SFM's, Elves and storm-combos.

The power creep of the last 6 years outclassed ol' 4cc cost control permaments like Braids and Smokestack. Even humility and Moat struggle to remain their spots in current controls 4cc spot (thanks to omnipotent Jace) and the issue of being outclassed is not only Limited to Black control but to nearly all cards/strategies of the early 2000's or have you seen any Werbear's, Psychatogs, Madness.dec, Spiritmonger, Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, Wrath of God, lately?

Black remains a good Color for Control, as long as you define if with creature-control and discard. Land-destruction was shifted to red and then droped by WotC as mentioned. Nothing we can do, pal.

I describe the Situation with Microsofts very own meme: "Deal with it!"



P.S.: Don't expect me being pleased with similar decisions Taken by WotC like stripping Black from conditional Tutors, balanced "Life for value" cards or Ritual-effects

[sco0ter]

Obviously I have no source on this but I know I've seen WOTC comment on land destruction as being boring for new/casual players and therefore it is highly unlikely that we'll see new playable LD-spells. EVER.

And rightfully so. I recently played against a Sinkhole/Vindicate/Acid Rain/Wasteland/Hymn... deck and it was the most boring game ever, because I sat there for 15 minutes doing basically nothing, but playing lands (which got destroyed right away) and/or discarding cards (because I couldn't play anything). I never had more than 2 lands, most of time only 1.

Granted, it was in a casual environment, but the decks were semi-competitive at least, and I can't imagine I'd had more fun when sitting in front of such a deck in a tournament instead.

[thefreakaccident]

And rightfully so. I recently played against a Sinkhole/Vindicate/Acid Rain/Wasteland/Hymn... deck and it was the most boring game ever, because I sat there for 15 minutes doing basically nothing, but playing lands (which got destroyed right away) and/or discarding cards (because I couldn't play anything). I never had more than 2 lands, most of time only 1.

Granted, it was in a casual environment, but the decks were semi-competitive at least, and I can't imagine I'd had more fun when sitting in front of such a deck in a tournament instead.

It's not about your fun.

[frogczar]

I too am saddened by the fact that Wizards strategy of dumbing down the game and eliminating "unfun" deck archetypes has crept into Legacy. What do you expect when they print 1/2 creatures with 3 awesome abilities for 1 hybrid black/green mana? Can you even imagine such a creature being printed even 10 years ago?

To be honest, I've always been a aggro player first and a prison/LD/control player second. Both of these strategies are nearly dead in Legacy and it makes me sad. It's also increasingly difficult to punish greedy manabases with cards like Blood Moon and even Wasteland. Once Deathrite Shaman hits the table, forget about preventing spells in any color from being cast.

That being said, there are ways to adapt, we have the largest card-pool of any format (that people actually still play). There has to be a good answer somewhere.

[Lemnear]

I too am saddened by the fact that Wizards strategy of dumbing down the game and eliminating "unfun" deck archetypes has crept into Legacy. What do you expect when they print 1/2 creatures with 3 awesome abilities for 1 hybrid black/green mana? Can you even imagine such a creature being printed even 10 years ago?

To be honest, I've always been a aggro player first and a prison/LD/control player second. Both of these strategies are nearly dead in Legacy and it makes me sad. It's also increasingly difficult to punish greedy manabases with cards like Blood Moon and even Wasteland. Once Deathrite Shaman hits the table, forget about preventing spells in any color from being cast.

That being said, there are ways to adapt, we have the largest card-pool of any format (that people actually still play). There has to be a good answer somewhere.

It's not DRS or the concept of mana denial would have dead with Alpha aka Birds of Paradise. It's that actual Threats cost a lot less today. You can draw paralles between Serra Angel, Exalted Angel and SFM -> Batterskull and look at the costs going from 5 to 3+4 to 2+2 or compare serendib efreet, Sea Drake with Delver.

[apple713]

I too am saddened by the fact that Wizards strategy of dumbing down the game and eliminating "unfun" deck archetypes has crept into Legacy. What do you expect when they print 1/2 creatures with 3 awesome abilities for 1 hybrid black/green mana? Can you even imagine such a creature being printed even 10 years ago?

To be honest, I've always been a aggro player first and a prison/LD/control player second. Both of these strategies are nearly dead in Legacy and it makes me sad. It's also increasingly difficult to punish greedy manabases with cards like Blood Moon and even Wasteland. Once Deathrite Shaman hits the table, forget about preventing spells in any color from being cast.

That being said, there are ways to adapt, we have the largest card-pool of any format (that people actually still play). There has to be a good answer somewhere.

Pithing needle is under rated. It answers lots of problems for decks. The issue is decks overlook it. It stops all planeswalkers. Many creatures like drs and kotr. It also stops some cobo type cards like sneak attack or candelabra. Further moor it stops lands like wasteland and karakas and maze.

On a seperate note i think because you name a card and not a card type, pithing needle isnt as good as it could be. It should allowyou to prevent all creature from using abilities or all lands and then it should see play.

[Megadeus]

Pithing Needle would be OP. Just play cursed totem if you wanna shut down dudes

[KristinXX]

Pithing needle is under rated. It answers lots of problems for decks. The issue is decks overlook it. It stops all planeswalkers. Many creatures like drs and kotr. It also stops some cobo type cards like sneak attack or candelabra. Further moor it stops lands like wasteland and karakas and maze.

On a seperate note i think because you name a card and not a card type, pithing needle isnt as good as it could be. It should allowyou to prevent all creature from using abilities or all lands and then it should see play.

I agree that Pithinh needle is under rated. There's been so many times I have been up against a planes walker & not had an answer for it & wished pithing needle was in my sideboard. I don't know many answers for planes walkers, they always really roggle me

[Finn]

Death and Taxes is mana and resource denial deck. Is that not what you are looking for?

[Megadeus]

Shit if you are worried about activated abilities play suppression field...

[Lemnear]

Shit if you are worried about activated abilities play suppression field...

Or Phyrexian Revoker ... that one at least beatz

[Barook]

Or Phyrexian Revoker ... that one at least beatz
Revoker doesn't stop lands, though.

Problem is that pretty much any pure LD above 0 man (Wasteland) sucks nowadays. Stifle is good enough against fetchlands, but comes with extra utility.

Let's imagine something like this would see print in Commander or whatever (not Modern/Standard-legal) - would it be playable?


Neo Sinkhole :r::r:
Sorcery
Neo Sinkhole can't be countered.
Destroy target non-basic land.

I doubt it would see play.

The best thing we could hope for is probably a pitch-Stifle effect in a non-blue color in an set aimed for the eternal market.

[Koby]

It's not about your fun.

This is so true it's beyond words.

Who is to say that because you can't have fun when I play my cards that I should suffer from WotC policy by removing my enjoyment? That in itself is fun-limiting. </griefer>

[nedleeds]

It's not DRS or the concept of mana denial would have dead with Alpha aka Birds of Paradise. It's that actual Threats cost a lot less today. You can draw paralles between Serra Angel, Exalted Angel and SFM -> Batterskull and look at the costs going from 5 to 3+4 to 2+2 or compare serendib efreet, Sea Drake with Delver.

Delver, Show and Tell. I mean ... you can keep somebody on Island and they can still crush you. Or drop Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell <tard face>. You would have to pair all the successful mana denial with a lock piece like Trinisphere. Once you are going there you're just better off trying to power the 3ball out before the LD. Then why not just play Armageddon? :eyebrow:

As for Sinkhole the card.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UZrvL47d_iU/UgUY3QyRoNI/AAAAAAAABpU/rzkDSb-VjfI/s749/sinkhole.png

[Anusien]

This is so true it's beyond words.

Who is to say that because you can't have fun when I play my cards that I should suffer from WotC policy by removing my enjoyment? That in itself is fun-limiting. </griefer>
When I'm sitting down trying to win a tournament, I want to win, and I don't care if you have any fun. I will seek out the most degenerate combo decks and limit your ability to interact with me.

But stepping away from the tournament for a minute and just looking at Magic; it's a game. People play to have fun. If, on the whole, players don't have fun at tournaments, they will quit going.

[Humphrey]

Sinkhole already sucked long time before. I eventually sold mine in 2008.

And what do you want to achieve with cheap(er) LD? It would only help decks with delver and friends.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sinkhole was never really a top tier card anyways. The problem is Sinkhole either is going to blow the game wide open or they are just going to replace the land and move on. Then late game while you are topdecking irrelevant Sinkholes they are topdecking spells that are going to ruin your day. If you want to play Sinkhole play Pox or even better go to GenCon and play 4x Sinkhole, 4x Hymn, 4x Strip Mine in the Peasant World Champs.

[Lejay]

If you really need to play land destruction try pithing needle + gitaxian probe.

[Gheizen64]

Did you know that we have a 2R land destruction spell that deal 3 damage too? And yet it's unplayed (Cryoclasm). However i think LD to be remotely playable nowadays it would need to have damage or alternative utility attached, else it just become a dead topdeck later on. Cards like Chocking Sands, Cryoclasm and Molten Rain aren't enough. Roiling Terrain was a good try, but costed 1 mana too much (it's a decent fetch hoser).

But yeah Pillage won't see play if you can play everything in your deck at the 2-3 cmc spots.

[Hardcore]

Nonsense! The overlooked factor is the context; the format is dominated by blue cantrips that make it easy to dig for stuff. Be it spells, or lands. (this is also why discard is quite weak)

Btw, mixing sinkholes and blue cantrips is a nice plan. A friend did just that, and he ran snapcaster, extirpate, surgicals, mishras and wasteland too. Less effective against Mono color decks, and recurring creatures, but otherwise OK. Probably very good anti -control.

[HammafistRoob]

My favorite LD card is definitely Shadow of Doubt. It's actually very strong against things like GSZ, Infernal, Entomb, SFM, and Intuition as well so it's usually not a dead card.

[Star|Scream]

Nonsense! The overlooked factor is the context; the format is dominated by blue cantrips that make it easy to dig for stuff. Be it spells, or lands. (this is also why discard is quite weak)

Btw, mixing sinkholes and blue cantrips is a nice plan. A friend did just that, and he ran snapcaster, extirpate, surgicals, mishras and wasteland too. Less effective against Mono color decks, and recurring creatures, but otherwise OK. Probably very good anti -control.

Right. Ban brainstorm!

[Hardcore]

My favorite LD card is definitely Shadow of Doubt. It's actually very strong against things like GSZ, Infernal, Entomb, SFM, and Intuition as well so it's usually not a dead card.

Interesting card! Thanks for sharing

[lordofthepit]

Sinkhole has won me plenty of games as a sideboard card in Team America and Jund.

[Richard Cheese]

I feel your pain. I saved up for Ice Storms and Sinkholes back in the day, and the deck was just my baby. Sometimes Eva Green and Team America still run Sinkholes, but LD as an archetype is basically dead because there are just too many 1-2 mana plays, fetchlands, cantrips, etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, blame the powercreep. Even in the world of Dazes here and there, Sinkhole would be quite strong, but not when a usual 3/2 flying, 3/3 shroud, 4/5 vanilla, 15/15 "you lose" creature (or deadly spells' chain) costs three mana and below.
Not that I pity that exactly this one archetype is dead, otoh, I understand that there are ppl who like LD and who even heavily invested into it.
I sold my beta Holes three years ago and never shed a tear.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is so true it's beyond words.

Who is to say that because you can't have fun when I play my cards that I should suffer from WotC policy by removing my enjoyment? That in itself is fun-limiting. </griefer>
Who is to say that your fun trumps my fun? Why should I have to tolerate being able to do stone nothing from turn three onwards because I have no mana? There are still plenty of ways to grief in Magic.

Powerful LD is gone, and I say good riddance. Give us some occasional MLD to keep ramp shenanigans in check but let the Stone/Molten Rains stay where they are.

[HammafistRoob]

Who is to say that your fun trumps my fun? Why should I have to tolerate being able to do stone nothing from turn three onwards because I have no mana? There are still plenty of ways to grief in Magic.

Powerful LD is gone, and I say good riddance. Give us some occasional MLD to keep ramp shenanigans in check but let the Stone/Molten Rains stay where they are.

I have to agree here. I feel like wizards made the right move when they pretty much said cheap mana denial is a thing of the past. They want their game to grow, and people still have fun even if they lose, as long as they get to play their cards.

[Hardcore]

Mana denial is not that easy; you have to find the LD cards. If both you and your opponent draw lands he well get free from your grip.

As for fun, explain what makes Belcher, TES/ANT and similar decks fun for the opponent.

Btw, mana denial would be good for the format; it would slow it down by forcing land greedy decks to play more of them and control decks to play more counterspells. Blue was once a color for countering spells, but today is mostly a combo enabler.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I have to agree here. I feel like wizards made the right move when they pretty much said cheap mana denial is a thing of the past. They want their game to grow, and people still have fun even if they lose, as long as they get to play their cards.

LD for Standard was perfectly balanced post Caw-Blade IMO. Tectonic Edge + Goblin Ruinblaster was just right. I ran mono-red with 4x Tec Edge MD and 4x Ruinblaster SB. I had an edge post board against Caw-Blade/UB Control decks that would get greedy and need to hit 5-6 mana bombs like Giddeon or Titans to stabilize, buying me those 1 or 2 turns I needed to edge out a W at the cost of a weaker game against combo decks or aggro decks (I was like 2-6 against the mirror because they ran MD +2/+0 lands and SB Pro-Red dudes in my anti-control slots). I don't think LD ever gave me a free win there like Stone Rain or Wasteland sometimes can but it would often keep a stupid 5-7 cmc bombs deck under the gun for an extra turn or two which is something I feel like Standard needs more than a bunch of undercosted beaters that only keep control decks honest in a lucky little kid sort of way.

[Hardcore]

undercosted
beaters that only keep control decks
honest in a lucky little kid sort of way

Thalia and all the new hate bears. They exist because wizard are to weak to use the ban hammer, and too stupid to not make new broken cards.
That is bad of course; it is not very fun to feel you must go looking for hate for your deck to be viable.

" -what is your game plan? -To hope I can hate my opponents beyond top 8. "

Fun?

[Barook]

Powerful LD is gone, and I say good riddance. Give us some occasional MLD to keep ramp shenanigans in check but let the Stone/Molten Rains stay where they are.

I could live with that if Wizards stopped rehashing old, iconic cards with double or tripple the mana cost and printing stupid shit like Emrakul, Omniscience and Enter the Infinite.

[Lemnear]

I could live with that if Wizards stopped rehashing old, iconic cards with double or tripple the mana cost and printing stupid shit like Emrakul, Omniscience and Enter the Infinite.

But, but if WotC prints new LD they have to overthink their habit of printing Sets Full of 6cc+ i-win-buttons for their casual crowd which would be sad if they can't resolve their "exciting" all-in-one-creatures! *whine*

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As for fun, explain what makes Belcher, TES/ANT and similar decks fun for the opponent.


The fact that they're hard to pilot, you may still interact, at least because you got your lands, and even if you for some reason can't, the games are over pretty fast. Also, Belcher has bad matchup against pile of beermats,
Sitting in a chair, doing nothing for forty minutes while watching some half-ape in a jugallo T-shirt drawing one Stone Rain after another is much more frustrating. Also, playing Pox/Stax is like asking for a kick in the nuts. Not everyone is that patient like I am.

[TsumiBand]

Jesus, everyone here makes it sound like dedicated LD decks are the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from. Hasn't anybody seen what happens when those rad LD decks don't draw their nuts? They tank so fucking hard that it's all they pilot can do to keep themselves from throwing all 75 into a toilet.

Efficient creatures are in anyway; a turn 1 DRS is the one of the last things a dedicated LD deck would probably like to see. I mean shit you can't even Rancid Earth it away with Threshold; fuck this game, am I right?? Stupid uber BoP, destroying the world I love.

I remember the first LD deck I played against; it was :b::r: and played shit like Mesmeric Fiend, Petravark, Faceless Butcher, a bevy of 3 mana LD spells and like, Magnivores and Sengir Vampires and shit. Crushed the hell out of my 80-card Madness deck. 2002 was rough for me. I do miss the archetype, but I can't help but think that LD would need to be printed at such a level now to matter a damn that it would be genuinely unfair. Like, I don't think it fixes anything in Legacy in any fair configuration. What would you bring it in against, anyway. Blue need only get to 2U to drop Emrakul, so fuck it. Maverick would just like sac its own land in response and look for more land, so who cares? If Wasteland isn't good enough to prevent those decks from going active, I don't know that a spell that costs nonzero mana is going to do the job.

[FTW]

Sinkhole was never really a top tier card anyways. The problem is Sinkhole either is going to blow the game wide open or they are just going to replace the land and move on. Then late game while you are topdecking irrelevant Sinkholes they are topdecking spells that are going to ruin your day. If you want to play Sinkhole play Pox or even better go to GenCon and play 4x Sinkhole, 4x Hymn, 4x Strip Mine in the Peasant World Champs.

This. Hell, play this:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Dead Weight
4 Sinkhole
3 Vendetta

4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Carnophage
4 Pulse Tracker
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
1 Flesh Reaver

4 Black Vise

4 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
2 Barren Moor


Turn 1 on the draw... Dark Ritual, Black Vise, Sinkhole. T2 1-mana bear Strip Mine. G2SB?
Or on the play T1 ritual, Vice + creature. T2 Sinkhole. GG.

[thefringthing]

I feel like it's a bigger deal that aggro decks have been completely pushed out of the format than that there are no good dedicated board control decks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This. Hell, play this:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Dead Weight
4 Sinkhole
3 Vendetta

4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Carnophage
4 Pulse Tracker
4 Black Knight
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
1 Flesh Reaver

4 Black Vise

4 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
2 Barren Moor


Turn 1 on the draw... Dark Ritual, Black Vise, Sinkhole. T2 1-mana bear Strip Mine. G2SB?
Or on the play T1 ritual, Vice + creature. T2 Sinkhole. GG.

Nope, playing this

16 Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Snap
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will (uncommon)
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Gush
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Old Man of the Sea (uncommon)
4 Phantasmal Bear

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Jesus, everyone here makes it sound like dedicated LD decks are the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from. Hasn't anybody seen what happens when those rad LD decks don't draw their nuts? They tank so fucking hard that it's all they pilot can do to keep themselves from throwing all 75 into a toilet.
...Like, I don't think it fixes anything in Legacy in any fair configuration...
Not everyone plays Legacy... WotC thinks that LD loses them the kitchen crowd, and I believe they have far more data than you got.
Also, what is "the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from"? Most people hate when they are unable to play their spells for whatever the reason (be it manascrew, colorscrew, resistors, etc.), at least that's the kind of whining I hear most often. And from my experience, playing against Pox/Stax is the most annoying in all the Magic - games tend to last for eternity, especially Stax does nothing for many turns, and then the more lucky guy of the two wins 1:0 because he finally draws and sticks Delver/Goyf, LED/IT, Bloodghast/NetherSpirit or Elspeth/Mishra; this of course takes no less than 50 minutes and is full of action like "draw, go".

[evanmartyr]

Not everyone plays Legacy... WotC thinks that LD loses them the kitchen crowd, and I believe they have far more data than you got.
Also, what is "the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from"? Most people hate when they are unable to play their spells for whatever the reason (be it manascrew, colorscrew, resistors, etc.), at least that's the kind of whining I hear most often. And from my experience, playing against Pox/Stax is the most annoying in all the Magic - games tend to last for eternity, especially Stax does nothing for many turns, and then the more lucky guy of the two wins 1:0 because he finally draws and sticks Delver/Goyf, LED/IT, Bloodghast/NetherSpirit or Elspeth/Mishra; this of course takes no less than 50 minutes and is full of action like "draw, go".

Stax maybe, reasonably well put-together pox decks (see 8rack in modern) actually have a clock, or a soft lock, that makes it clear you'll lose soon. When you have a Liliana or a Raven's Crime + Dakmor Salvage, a rack effect, and an Ensnaring Bridge, people tend to concede to save some time.


I feel like it's a bigger deal that aggro decks have been completely pushed out of the format than that there are no good dedicated board control decks.

Goblins just won in Minneapolis. Seems like maybe the death of aggro is a bit overblown?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, the modern (and Modern) Pox decks are not that slow like the ones that were winning with sole Nether Spirit.

[Megadeus]

Yep, the modern (and Modern) Pox decks are not that slow like the ones that were winning with sole Nether Spirit.

They also played mishras factories. If people don't like playing against pox and stax they really shouldn't be playing legacy. Land and mana attacking is a part of almost every deck in three format

[nedleeds]

This. Hell, play this:

[cards]
3 Vendetta


I'm pretty sure Vendetta will never be cast in competitive magic again with DRS running around. I think you are looking for Disfigure.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They also played mishras factories. If people don't like playing against pox and stax they really shouldn't be playing legacy. Land and mana attacking is a part of almost every deck in three format
:eek:

Thinking...

Ok, so you're confirming my words that manadenial drives ppl away from game and that WotC might dislike it?

[FTW]

I'm pretty sure Vendetta will never be cast in competitive magic again with DRS running around. I think you are looking for Disfigure.

How do you play Deathrite Shaman in Peasant magic? Bring silver paint with you? Or are you showing up with DQ-me-already-so-I-can-go-buy-lunch.dec?

Vendetta is to hedge against any random creatures that might be bigger than 2/2 (e.g. Mogg Flunkies), since 7 Disfigure looks pretty narrow. If you thought that was for a sanctioned format, I'm surprised you were more concerned about Vendetta than 4 Strip Mine + 4 Black Vise...

[nedleeds]

How do you play Deathrite Shaman in Peasant magic? Bring silver paint with you? Or are you showing up with DQ-me-already-so-I-can-go-buy-lunch.dec?

First off why are we talking about peasant magic on the source? Is that a format for slightly less poor people than the pauper crowd? You can discuss poor people magic at

Pauper and Peasant Information (http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap)

[FTW]

First off why are we talking about peasant magic on the source? Is that a format for slightly less poor people than the pauper crowd? You can discuss poor people magic at

Pauper and Peasant Information (http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap)

If you read the post I quoted, I was replying to a comment that Sinkhole could be played alongside Strip Mine in Peasant. We were basically agreeing that is the only format where Sinkhole still maintains its power level, largely because it is overpowered as a common and you can run it alongside 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Strip Mine against decks with 10-18 lands. Seems good.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If you read the post I quoted, I was replying to a comment that Sinkhole could be played alongside Strip Mine in Peasant. We were basically agreeing that is the only format where Sinkhole still maintains its power level, largely because it is overpowered as a common and you can run it alongside 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Strip Mine against decks with 10-18 lands. Seems good.

Yeah, it could be played in Pauper too, but running turn 1 LD alongside 4 Black Vise seems pretty awesome and that is the only format you can do it in.

Strip Mine counts as an uncommon in peasant FYI, so no 4x Vise 4x Strip mine allowed.

[Megadeus]

:eek:

Thinking...

Ok, so you're confirming my words that manadenial drives ppl away from game and that WotC might dislike it?

If you are posting in this forum it is assumed that you play legacy. If you play legacy and hate mana denial, then I'm not sure how you enjoy legacy.

[FTW]

Strip Mine counts as an uncommon in peasant FYI, so no 4x Vise 4x Strip mine allowed.

Huh? "Decks may include four Strip Mines as commons because one of those cards was "Common 1" -- counted as common in Peasant Magic -- in Antiquities. " from the creator of Peasant format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/58

EDIT: Nevermind, I found an updated site on Peasant Magic and apparently Mana Drain is banned and Strip Mine is errata'd to be uncommon. Oh well. Dammit, why can't Wizards make a format where I can play 4 Strip Mine 4 Black Vise please and thank you.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you are posting in this forum it is assumed that you play legacy. If you play legacy and hate mana denial, then I'm not sure how you enjoy legacy.
Your logic is so flawed that I don't even know where to start. The only thing where you weren't wrong is that I play Legacy. But from that on, it's like reading an alien spaceship's manual.

[mcfarland]

Your logic is so flawed that I don't even know where to start. The only thing where you weren't wrong is that I play Legacy. But from that on, it's like reading an alien spaceship's manual.

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Generally, people playing Legacy derive their fun by hitting as hard as they can, and being hit as hard as their opponents can swing - not by casting their pretty six-drop.

[Hardcore]

You mean I don't automatically win by playing Shivan Dragon? Darn...

[FTW]

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Generally, people playing Legacy derive their fun by hitting as hard as they can, and being hit as hard as their opponents can swing - not by casting their pretty six-drop.

You made Exalted Angel cry. Don't worry honey, you're still pretty no matter how old you get.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Generally, people playing Legacy derive their fun by hitting as hard as they can, and being hit as hard as their opponents can swing - not by casting their pretty six-drop.

That's why I wrote that WotC's concern with LD is that they lose the casual/EDH crowd. Legacy ain't the whole MtG...

From what are my experiences with casuals, they're a band of whiners, and what makes them whine the most is discard/LD/lock in no particular order (or better said: whichever resource denial you use). WotC don't wanna lose those people and I quite do understand them; after all, they print their own money so they need to take these things into considerations.

As a both ex-casual and soon-to-be-ex-Legacier, I played all kinds of resource denial from my very first Forest_Elf_Thermokarts.dec, through Erhnamgeddon to Stax (and I still got my set of Stasis in case something happens) and any StifleWasteGG pile, so I really don't have trouble to understand that LD is a part of game. Hey, I even was a guy who played Global Ruin (go search it) in 7th Ed. - LRW Extended Madness Zoo!
Otoh, I do understand that many ppl dislike to play against LD, (maybe because in fact they don't technically play, but just stare hopelessly, while their opponent tries to kill them with a 2/1 firststriker and a 1/3 flyer). ANT at least kills fast and if you don't have any answers it still isn't that painful as having all the things possible, but been unable to play them. Also - combo is quite hard to play, while slamming Stone Rain after Stone Rain is not that mentally requiring.
I shelved Stax on the same day I sold my Sol lands (quite obv.), but I sold them not because I'm a gentlemen who can't withstand torturing his opponents, but because LD sucks. In a format where there are 15/15s for 2U, I find little pleasure in twiddling around with Waste+CoW, etc. Generally, I derive my fun by hitting as hard as I can, and being hit as hard as my opponents can swing - not by casting some :b::b: or :1::r::r: sorcery that does nothing.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Well I don't think LD really is a dead strategy. There are quite some effective loam control versions popping up from time to time.
And there are so many combinations of unusual choices for LD focused Pox decs that are not fully explored imho:
Green for Life from the Loam+Abrupt Decay, Red for Devastating Dreams+Burning Wish, Blue for Brainstorm+Stifle+Shadow of Doubt.
Maybe try it with a combination of Mox Diamond+Ancient Tomb+City of Traitors+Trinisphere+Chalice of the Void+Tangle Wire+moar LD. Or combine Loam based strategies with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth+Maze of Ith or Rishadan Port.
There are just so many different things to do between aggro loam, pox and 43 lands, maybe some of them work well in the current meta.

Footnote: Please don't pick any specific card and say "but that card sucks", I was merely pointing at the horrendous amount of combinations possible and probably not fully explored.

[Lord Seth]

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.
Yes, mana denial is part of Legacy, but it's generally only a secondary focus of the deck. Merfolk plays 4x Wasteland, but it's not out to keep its opponents permanently off land, it just wants to disrupt them long enough to quickly force through a win, and this is true in general about Legacy decks that play Wasteland and similar cards. There's a big difference between a deck that happens to have some land destruction in it and a deck that has land destruction as its principal focus, and decks that fall into the latter group are generally Tier 2 at best.

[TsumiBand]

That's why I wrote that WotC's concern with LD is that they lose the casual/EDH crowd. Legacy ain't the whole MtG...

So the thing about casual / EDH players is that they have their own unique banlists. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the same people that play casually and cry foul when their opponents blow up lands institute house rules about cards / effects they hate. If those guys are the ones complaining about OP cards preventing them from taking their 72-card decks to FNM, that's wanting it both ways. "Not only do I *hate* playing against counterspells, I *demand* you cease printing them, because fucking KEENAN won't stop bringing them to my house every other Saturday for Game Night unless YOU GUYS QUIT MAKING THEM"

[Sansian]

Huh? "Decks may include four Strip Mines as commons because one of those cards was "Common 1" -- counted as common in Peasant Magic -- in Antiquities. " from the creator of Peasant format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/58

EDIT: Nevermind, I found an updated site on Peasant Magic and apparently Mana Drain is banned and Strip Mine is errata'd to be uncommon. Oh well. Dammit, why can't Wizards make a format where I can play 4 Strip Mine 4 Black Vise please and thank you.

Play the Microprose MTG game from the late 90's. You can play 4x strips, vices, sinkholes, and contract from below. It makes for some fun comp-stomping.

[sco0ter]

It's not about your fun.


When I'm sitting down trying to win a tournament, I want to win, and I don't care if you have any fun. I will seek out the most degenerate combo decks and limit your ability to interact with me.

But stepping away from the tournament for a minute and just looking at Magic; it's a game. People play to have fun. If, on the whole, players don't have fun at tournaments, they will quit going.

I basically meant this.

Playing against LD at a tournament is the same unfun as playing against it at the casual kitchen table.

[Barook]

So the thing about casual / EDH players is that they have their own unique banlists. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the same people that play casually and cry foul when their opponents blow up lands institute house rules about cards / effects they hate. If those guys are the ones complaining about OP cards preventing them from taking their 72-card decks to FNM, that's wanting it both ways. "Not only do I *hate* playing against counterspells, I *demand* you cease printing them, because fucking KEENAN won't stop bringing them to my house every other Saturday for Game Night unless YOU GUYS QUIT MAKING THEM"
The thing about counterspells is that in general, the only way to interact with them is by playing counters by yourself.

It's way eaiser to interact with creatures since there's tons of removal in various colors AND you can attack/block with them. Interacting with graveyards also seems easier since Wizards printed tons of hate.

[Megadeus]

The thing about counterspells is that in general, the only way to interact with them is by playing counters by yourself.

It's way eaiser to interact with creatures since there's tons of removal in various colors AND you can attack/block with them. Interacting with graveyards also seems easier since Wizards printed tons of hate.

I mean our you either fight through them or make them un counterablr with one of the million ways WOTC is designing cards like Cavern of souls, savage summoning, or hell just play a naturally uncounterable creature

[TsumiBand]

The thing about counterspells is that in general, the only way to interact with them is by playing counters by yourself.

It's way eaiser to interact with creatures since there's tons of removal in various colors AND you can attack/block with them. Interacting with graveyards also seems easier since Wizards printed tons of hate.

Are we talking about interacting as "having a response" or "playing a deck with uncounterable spells" or what? Because there's been an awful lot of playable uncounterable things lately, in concert with the overall weakening of new countermagic. I mean I know that the emphasis is placed on the in-game decision tree or whatever that they call it, wherein they're trying to foster interaction via the cards in play. But I dunno why someone can't just be a dicknose and cram every Green uncounterable thing into their deck and show up to their Kitchen Table event all like, "approach me, fraternal sibling".

And keep in mind I am still talking about the casual crowd here with their weird house rules and junk. It literally does not matter what gets printed b/c they can just ban it at Steve's house and keep playing. Do the regulars at FNM really just auto-lose to Stone Rain and that's why it cannot be printed anymore?

[Barook]

Being or making stuff uncounterable is as bad and non-interactive as counterspells themselves. The entire "counters vs uncounterable" standoff about who can be a bigger dick towards the other player reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inTRblYTevk).

My point was that Wizard has gone way more creature-centric in last few years because it's very easy to interact with creatures (except they pushed Hexproof like a bunch of idiots).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

And keep in mind I am still talking about the casual crowd here with their weird house rules and junk. It literally does not matter what gets printed b/c they can just ban it at Steve's house and keep playing. Do the regulars at FNM really just auto-lose to Stone Rain and that's why it cannot be printed anymore?
Ask Wizards. It looks like they think so. :really:




My point was that Wizard has gone way more creature-centric in last few years because it's very easy to interact with creatures (except they pushed Hexproof like a bunch of idiots).
And Emrakul.

[Barook]

And Emrakul.
I wanted to name Emrakul, but there are a few ways to interact with it (e.g. O-Ring, Karakas). But Emrakul as a whole was a stupid design that should have never seen the light of day - while Maro whines in his blog about Chaos Warp because it gives red a way to deal with enchantments... :rolleyes:

[FTW]

I wanted to name Emrakul, but there are a few ways to interact with it (e.g. O-Ring, Karakas). But Emrakul as a whole was a stupid design that should have never seen the light of day - while Maro whines in his blog about Chaos Warp because it gives red a way to deal with enchantments... :rolleyes:

Dear MaRo,
This just in. Mountains can produce mana for colorless spells too!
I know. Shocking.
Nevinyrall's Disk Oblivion Stone Ratchet Bomb Spine of Ish Sash Lux Cannon Plague Boiler Karn Liberated Chaos Orb
Hmmm.. apparently red can kill enchantments.
But hey, at least those don't use red mana. At least no spells requiring heavy red mana can kill enchantments. Good thing they never printed any cards like Apocalypse or Worldfire


I mean our you either fight through them or make them un counterablr with one of the million ways WOTC is designing cards like Cavern of souls, savage summoning, or hell just play a naturally uncounterable creature

This is why creatures are OP today.

Back in the good old days, creature decks and combo decks could still win tournaments even when the opponent was running 4 Counterspell + 4 Daze + 4 Mana Leak + 4 Brainstorm in Standard. No need for uncounterable creatures! You just splash some discard, or play chicken with your opponent until you can cast more threats per turn than they can counter and sandbag a few in case of a Wrath, or play threats earlier and force them to choose between keeping mana open to counter and playing something themselves to race/interact with your board. You know, use strategy instead of DASHULKBIGUNSTOPPABLECREATUREDERP.

This was also when a Doom Blade effect costed 0-1 mana. Hexproof wasn't a thing yet. (OMG OMG but ____ dies to everything. SO bad). How ever could creatures win?? Speed and strategy!

WotC has decided new players don't have strategy so they have to print moar unkillable stuff and worse counters and LD so Timmy doesn't cry when a better Magic player kills his favorite fatty.

[Lemnear]

Nope, WotC did 2 things:

1) Printing less counters which are either insanly narrow in use or costing twice the mana of the actual threat you counter and

2) printing more and more creatures with spell-like Enter/Leave-the-Battlefield effects which always leave you on the short end if you try to handle the creature with (spot-)removal.


This is WotC's way to give creature-decks a Form of cardadvantage only white and Blue instants/sorceries were able to create before Alara. To the demise of card-Type-diversity, creatures now have better effects and cost less than respective Instants/Sorceries/Enchantments/Artifacts like Dark Confidant/Tutelage or Griselbrand/Y.Bargain, etc. are examples for.

The fact that even dedicated Control decks in Legacy today often Base their success on creatures is a sign.

P.S.: We derailed ... hard

[FieryBalrog]

Dedicated LD is never going to be good in bluecantrips.format

[Will_L]

Dedicated LD is never going to be good in bluecantrips.format

ban brainstorm

[ahg113]

Instead of banning brainstorm, WotC should print cheaper LD, Sinkhole should be thoughtseize'esque like B, Pay 2 life- destroy target land. Or RR- Destroy target non-basic land, deal 2 damage to its controller. Change Stone Rain from a sorcery to an instant.

It does suck as a non-U player to see that color develop, and black and red stagnate. Not trying to ban anything, just OP the other colors. Fine with the creatures > spell phase of the current printings, it balances out the past.

edit- missed sarcasm in ban brainstorm, duly noted

[dontbiteitholmes]

Instead of banning brainstorm, WotC should print cheaper LD, Sinkhole should be thoughtseize'esque like B, Pay 2 life- destroy target land. Or RR- Destroy target non-basic land, deal 2 damage to its controller. Change Stone Rain from a sorcery to an instant.

It does suck as a non-U player to see that color develop, and black and red stagnate. Not trying to ban anything, just OP the other colors. Fine with the creatures > spell phase of the current printings, it balances out the past.

edit- missed sarcasm in ban brainstorm, duly noted

That is the worst idea I've ever heard. I hope you are joking.

[ahg113]

That is the worst idea I've ever heard. I hope you are joking.

While the effects are drastically, and comically, inappropriate, the idea is, let blue manipulate it's library, have the best interaction with the stack. Let the other colors, as deemed appropriate best interact with the "battlefield". I think it's perfectly fine, attrition should be an available strategy, besides stifle/shadow of doubt - fetchlands. Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Cavern of Souls are not solutions for red & black, however "playable" they are in those colors to combat counterspells. LD combats cantripping in essence that cantripping doesn't progress the boardstate, and without lands, one cannot cantrip (g.probe aside).

But, your avatar is that of Einstein, so obvious put down is genius level. Or... it's lazy to say just play blue, or black and red can't have fun toys. Death & Taxes does this, but is neither red, nor blue. Modern D&T also plays a nice mana denial strategy, Goblins can be up there as well. So there are options, but not many, hence the discussion.

[FTW]

Or... it's lazy to say just play blue, or black and red can't have fun toys. Death & Taxes does this, but is neither red, nor blue. Modern D&T also plays a nice mana denial strategy, Goblins can be up there as well. So there are options, but not many, hence the discussion.

Black can't have fun toys in mana denial? Huh? Have you ever played Pox.dec?

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2-4 Pox
4 Wasteland

and recently

4 Liliana of the Veil (+1 pressures control decks to either sandbag and discard lands or discard important spells. ultimate kills half of land)

Yeah, WotC isn't printing any new toys, but if you're talking about existing Legacy archetypes using existing cards, Black has no problem playing mana denial...

The issue is not that black doesn't have mana denial toys, but that mana denial is no longer effective when a flipped Delver or T1 Omniscience will still kill you. So that other tangent is still relevant to discussion: power creep of creatures to appease new players has outclassed land destruction spells from 13-20 years ago.

[ahg113]

Black can't have fun toys in mana denial? Huh? Have you ever played Pox.dec?

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2-4 Pox
4 Wasteland

and recently

4 Liliana of the Veil (+1 pressures control decks to either sandbag and discard lands or discard important spells. ultimate kills half of land)

Yeah, WotC isn't printing any new toys, but if you're talking about existing Legacy archetypes using existing cards, Black has no problem playing mana denial...

The issue is not that black doesn't have mana denial toys, but that mana denial is no longer effective when a flipped Delver or T1 Omniscience will still kill you. So that other tangent is still relevant to discussion: power creep of creatures to appease new players has outclassed land destruction spells from 13-20 years ago.

The first card, Sinkhole, you mention is the banner child for this thread, -1. +1, Lili, card is sweet. -1, Wasteland is not a black card. And the crux of the issue, fringe cards Smallpox and Pox do not an indefensible realistic strategy make.

"...outclassed land destruction spells from 13-20 years ago," is the reason new LD spells should be created. Delver happened, I think it was a mistake, but life goes on. Oh... blue got another shiny toy in Omniscience... life goes on. A T1 Delver is not back breaking, Omni, way much more so. So if I can keep that person off land (barring a god draw all the time), then it stands to reason, I have a chance of winning, awesome.

But hey, it's not like I money at magic so...

[Megadeus]

One mana sinkhole? I'll be playing UB stifle sinkhole.dec with snap caster mage. Good luck casting anything that costs more than one

[FTW]

The first card, Sinkhole, you mention is the banner child for this thread, -1.

Irrelevant straw man. I was not listing new cards available for black land destruction. I was listing the land destruction shell of Pox to show that as an aggregate black already has more mana disruption tools available than Goblins or D&T. You listed some existing Legacy decks that have viable mana denial strategies using older cards. My point: while you're at it, and talking about the color black, Pox.dec (a longstanding Legacy archetype) should be in the discussion too.

While this thread is about Sinkhole becoming weak (even Pox decks are considering cutting it), Pox variants can still put up decent results in the current meta. I don't know what you're getting at by "indefensible realistic strategy" since all archetypes have weaknesses, but Pox has Top 8'd several large tournaments over the last 18 months, has a fairly long history in Legacy, and is on the front page of the "Established Decks" section... Splashing green for Loam, Abrupt Decay and T1 LD off Mox Diamond is one way Pox.dec can speed up to compete with the power creep.


-1, Wasteland is not a black card.
Who cares? Are you talking about Wizards printing new mana denial cards with black because you like the aesthetics of the color on cardboard and the flavor of the color pie, or are you talking about efficient mana denial tools available to black decks?

Goblins and D&T, which you mentioned as viable mana denial strategies, rely on Wasteland+Port which are neither red nor white...

[Lord Seth]

Dear MaRo,
This just in. Mountains can produce mana for colorless spells too!
I know. Shocking.
Nevinyrall's Disk Oblivion Stone Ratchet Bomb Spine of Ish Sash Lux Cannon Plague Boiler Karn Liberated Chaos Orb
Hmmm.. apparently red can kill enchantments.
First, some of those are rather old cards, so citing them as something that should be carried over to today is a bit weak; you might as well argue that High Tide shows that Blue should be getting mana ramp. But ignoring that and focusing on the newer cards, artifacts/colorless cards have long been able to do things that a spell of a particular color can't, though often less efficiently than a spell of the "correct" color could to make up for it. This is like saying that Blue should in the present be getting lifegain spells on the basis that Chalice of Life exists.


But hey, at least those don't use red mana. At least no spells requiring heavy red mana can kill enchantments. Good thing they never printed any cards like Apocalypse or Worldfire
You know, while I do disagree with Rosewater on this (I thought Chaos Warp was a really cool card and think it's a good way to go about giving Red enchantment destruction while keeping it in color), you're making an utter strawman of what he said. Here's what he said:
"Red is not supposed to have such pinpoint ability to remove enchantments."

Emphasis mine. Apocalypse and Worldfire certainly have little "pinpoint ability" to remove enchantments.

[TsumiBand]

First, some of those are rather old cards, so citing them as something that should be carried over to today is a bit weak; you might as well argue that High Tide shows that Blue should be getting mana ramp. But ignoring that and focusing on the newer cards, artifacts/colorless cards have long been able to do things that a spell of a particular color can't, though often less efficiently than a spell of the "correct" color could to make up for it. This is like saying that Blue should in the present be getting lifegain spells on the basis that Chalice of Life exists.


You know, while I do disagree with Rosewater on this (I thought Chaos Warp was a really cool card and think it's a good way to go about giving Red enchantment destruction while keeping it in color), you're making an utter strawman of what he said. Here's what he said:
"Red is not supposed to have such pinpoint ability to remove enchantments."

Emphasis mine. Apocalypse and Worldfire certainly have little "pinpoint ability" to remove enchantments.

In fairness though, it was part of a conversation about Anarchy. Red's mass removal tends to be a lot like White's when it comes to destroying things en masse - all permanent are dicked. I realize they just printed Overload cards; I don't know either, man.

Really though Chaos Warp could have only happened in that Commander set with that wording. Warp World is different because it is all players getting X cards to oops something stupid into play, maybe even improve their board position. Target player getting one shot at flipping a cromulent permanent though, that's pretty fucked up. I like the card, but it should have been a shitty Proteus Staff for opponent's permanents only (which would have made me NOT like it, but that's way more fair).

It's weird for Eternal players because we are used to playing with cards that are at their mildest slightly-more-than-fair and at their worst the biggest mistakes ever. So Red gets things like Anarchy and we go "well fuck it, you guys did this shit once before and now you say you can't, y u no have balls?" I would not want to be the guy in charge of maintaining balance in Legacy without breaking Brainstorm or Show and Tell or fetchlands or Black tutors or Lackey or Goyf or whatever the fuck else.

[ntropy]

One mana sinkhole? I'll be playing UB stifle sinkhole.dec with snap caster mage. Good luck casting anything that costs more than one

I think the whole point is that this isn't good enough. Keeping people off land doesn't stop them. Every card in RUG cost 1 or less except Goyf. As long as they stick an Aether Vial, Goblins are done with their lands. If you miss one LD spell vs S+T, Emrakul hits. A one mana Sinkhole would make a few decks better, but none of them would be dedicated LD, because I don't think the best decks care about LD. LD only works in conjunction with other strategies - RUG, Goblins, and Pox come to mind.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like the idea of one mana Sinkhole, but I'd go even farther, I'd make it a black phyrexian mana. I think that there are some completely stupid cards in Legacy (mainly blue), so I'd love to balance the whole format by printing even more stupid cards in other colors.
I think it'll be very nice. WotC could even rename the format to Stupid.

"Hey Dan, gonna play some cards?"
"Yeah, dude, definitely! Gotta test my new deck for Stupid!"
"Good idea, the Stupid season is about to start, lets make some tests!"

[jtos84]

Sinkhole is still playable in legacy. I was winning small tournaments with it in my deck as a four of. I played it in two opens and I went 5-4 in both of them. To be fair sinkhole was not the reason I lost the games I did in those tournaments. It was mainly play errors, or the lack of the correct card ratios in the main, and the wrong cards in the s/b.

I do not really understand what purpose sinkhole would have to be a dominant card in legacy. Drawing sinkhole with the intention of winning because of it seems like something from the past. Straight land kill strategies are so simplistic they just become boring. It seems like an attempt to get around actually playing a game of magic. It also comes down to popularity. How many players want to play a format where sinkhole is just one of the best cards. Many people are more intrigued by spells that change the game state in a more creative way.

I like sinkhole just fine, but in terms of power level and overall reliability of strategy it is lacking. An example would be me on the play and my opponent has one land out on my second turn. I sinkhole. My opponent plays another land and a creature. I sinkhole again. My opponent does the same thing. It just does not affect the game in a reliably strong way. One of your better shots with sinkhole is with the pox build. Even that is such a pipe dream anymore that I don't know why it is played aside from passing the time with other people.

[TraxDaMax]

Stifle 2 Fetchlands of your opponent and wasteland his only Dual he was allowed to play. If your opponent has only a slight bit of temper, you'll notice right away in the form of: "Oh wow, fun magic..."

People don't want their lands destroyed I guess. I think Sinkhole is one of the coolest cards ever, but these days there are way too many one drops that will kill you, meaning people often only need one mana source to kill you.
So in order to make Sinkhole viable, you'd need to ban Dark Ritual/Delvers/Deathrites(this one is probably worst for LDtactics)/Lavamancers/Mongeese/Death's Shadows/Rite of Flame/LED/Mox Opal etc...

Which ofcourse, is clearly not going to happen.

[Megadeus]

Deathrite as a source of mana is just a worse birds of paradise. Obviously overall it is probably a better card because of how much utility it brings, but I mean let's not act like it is the first mana dork ever printed.

[FTW]

You know, while I do disagree with Rosewater on this (I thought Chaos Warp was a really cool card and think it's a good way to go about giving Red enchantment destruction while keeping it in color), you're making an utter strawman of what he said. Here's what he said:
"Red is not supposed to have such pinpoint ability to remove enchantments."

Emphasis mine. Apocalypse and Worldfire certainly have little "pinpoint ability" to remove enchantments.

Legit point. I didn't actually read his blog, I've just heard secondhand from others about his thing about Chaos Warp stepping out of the color pie, but not that it was specifically in reference to "pinpoint removal".

Technically red could kill any blue enchantment (or any other blue permanent) since the beginning of the game: REB, Pyroblast, Active Volcano, Jaya Ballard.

Red still has Capricious Efreet, which can potentially kill enemy enchantments of any color though has a random component to it. I like Chaos Warp in that, though it has more "pinpoint" accuracy, it still has that random flavor to it. Red has historically been able to do non-red things (tutor for any card, draw extra cards, edict effects, gain control of creatures, take extra turns, destroy permanents, etc.) with a drawback of randomness or all-or-nothing (Final Fortune). I think that fits nicely with red's theme of chaos and appreciate that designers have tried to incorporate that into cards with actual playability.

Anyway, that was an aside. Main comment in that post was about power creep of creatures being out of step with power creep/wane of spells.

[FTW]

Deathrite as a source of mana is just a worse birds of paradise. Obviously overall it is probably a better card because of how much utility it brings, but I mean let's not act like it is the first mana dork ever printed.

The big difference, I think, is that Birds of Paradise is not playable in most decks (especially since Noble Hierarch) and DRS often adds enough mana to be equivalent and actually does other stuff too. It also just gets more fuel every time you kill their land, kind of a punch in the face.

[Barook]

One thing that irks me about the Chaos Warp debate is Pongify is okay to the point that Rapid Hybridization is a functional reprint.

Blue isn't supposed to have creature removal. Sure, the flavour is to turn the creature into another one (Polymorph-style), but Chaos Warp has a flavorful explanation behind it as well.

But it seems to be a typical case of "If blue gets stuff from other colors, don't give a fuck - if another color gets something new - start a witch hunt!".


The big difference, I think, is that Birds of Paradise is not playable in most decks (especially since Noble Hierarch) and DRS often adds enough mana to be equivalent and actually does other stuff too. It also just gets more fuel every time you kill their land, kind of a punch in the face.
DRS has also the idiosyncrasy that its mana ability actually gets better against LD.

[Megadeus]

The big difference, I think, is that Birds of Paradise is not playable in most decks (especially since Noble Hierarch) and DRS often adds enough mana to be equivalent and actually does other stuff too. It also just gets more fuel every time you kill their land, kind of a punch in the face.

My point being though that this is not the first mana dork we have had that fixes mana well enough to blank land destruction

[FTW]

My point being though that this is not the first mana dork we have had that fixes mana well enough to blank land destruction

Consecrate Land and other cards also blank land destruction. What's relevant, I think, is blanking land destruction without running a blank.

Magic is diverse enough that every card/strategy has an answer. However, some of those answers are very narrow (lol @ Tsabo's Web being used to hose Rishadan Port). But if you're only packing answers, you have to hold back on threats. When you can get both at once (Qasali, Knight of Rel, Sc Ooze, etc.)...

[Megadeus]

I see where you are coming from. Though I would hardly call BoP or Hierarchs blanks. Obviously sinkhole has lost some if it's luster in recent years thanks to very efficiently costed threats and such. But that's unfortunately the way magic is going right now.

[thefreakaccident]

I see where you are coming from. Though I would hardly call BoP or Hierarchs blanks. Obviously sinkhole has lost some if it's luster in recent years thanks to very efficiently costed threats and such. But that's unfortunately the way magic is going right now.

LOL I thought things were bad when they printed wild nacatl, oh how naïve I was.

Edit: What do you guys think about a 1cmc fulminater mage? It's actually quite fair. Almost not good enough, but decent... It would force more basics I think.

Edit 2: A veteran explorer that kills two lands instead of tutoring lands.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

LOL I thought things were bad when they printed wild nacatl, oh how naïve I was.

Edit: What do you guys think about a 1cmc fulminater mage? It's actually quite fair. Almost not good enough, but decent... It would force more basics I think.

Edit 2: A veteran explorer that kills two lands instead of tutoring lands.
FulMage: He'll be better then the original, and the original was rare. This card will never happen.
How does the proposed Explorer work, is it made like the original one: one opponents land, one yours? Or does he kill two target lands? The latter is too strong, imho.

[Megadeus]

Id be all over an anti veteran explorer

[Barook]

FulMage: He'll be better then the original, and the original was rare. This card will never happen.
How does the proposed Explorer work, is it made like the original one: one opponents land, one yours? Or does he kill two target lands? The latter is too strong, imho.
Each player sacrifices a land? Make it non-basic only and it becomes interesting since it can get around fetchland activations of greedy mana bases.

[kiblast]

How does the proposed Explorer work, is it made like the original one: one opponents land, one yours? Or does he kill two target lands? The latter is too strong, imho.

Umh, Raze already exists.

Edit. I know you're trying to break it, you're welcome.:wink:

[TsumiBand]

Maybe the new Legend rule makes this less bad, but I feel like if Raze was ever going to be a thing someone would have already broken it in conjunction with Flagstones of Trokair. People tried it with like Smallpox and junk, but it relied on drawing Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth early enough to make turn 2 Smallpox on the play any good.

Really it just comes down to the fact that all kinds of creatures are way better than they were before and the design push to keep things on the battlefield with your "options open" means that (a) big creatures are good because it's harder to disrupt the ramp (b) little creatures are way better than before so they just sneak under the radar of LD (c) LD in general costs more now anyway and it will probably be like that for a long time. Honestly if Raze and Sinkhole aren't already in a deck making things happen, I don't think that there's a deck just waiting to be born. While Flagstones is cute and makes Raze and things like Boom // Bust more one-sided, a mana base to support all these things is just asking to get punched by Wasteland, so it doesn't matter.

[apple713]

The card i believe needs to see play for ld to be successful is

encroach

Combine it with surgical extraction and gitaxian probe and pithing needle and they'll be hurting. Small pox is required to catch up on the draw. Thalia is also a great threat here. If you could swing 3 colors blue brings stifle to the party. Mixing white for thalia adds vindicate.

[Will_L]

The card i believe needs to see play for ld to be successful is

encroach

Combine it with surgical extraction and gitaxian probe and pithing needle and they'll be hurting. Small pox is required to catch up on the draw. Thalia is also a great threat here. If you could swing 3 colors blue brings stifle to the party. Mixing white for thalia adds vindicate.


> stifle
> thalia
> same deck

Thalia sucks with 1 mana instants/sorceries. I wouldn't play a deck with Thalias, Smallpox and Stifle. Seems pretty bad.

[AndyTron]

One thing that irks me about the Chaos Warp debate is Pongify is okay to the point that Rapid Hybridization is a functional reprint.

Blue isn't supposed to have creature removal. Sure, the flavour is to turn the creature into another one (Polymorph-style), but Chaos Warp has a flavorful explanation behind it as well.

But it seems to be a typical case of "If blue gets stuff from other colors, don't give a fuck - if another color gets something new - start a witch hunt!".


DRS has also the idiosyncrasy that its mana ability actually gets better against LD.

Blue? Really? How can people still justify saying things like this? Green is actively getting new printings in a larger share of the color pie then blue ever did in it's entire history combined. Green gets get one mana cantrip effects in Ancient Stirrings, chant effects in Autumn's Veil and Xantid Swarm, creature removal engines in Ulvenwald Tracker and Master of the Wild Hunt, spot removal in Pit Fight and Prey Upon and Plummet, burn in Hornet Sting, several instant speed card draw spells, and too many counterspells to mention. All things green is never supposed to get, and all printed fairly recently. Green can interact with the graveyard both by exiling cards from it and returning cards to hand, destroy any permanent type one for one, has sweepers for both enchantments and artifacts (and flying creatures), and draws tons of cards. Green also has a habit of being able to do other color's specialties better then they do. Compare Oxidize with Smelt, Nature's Claim with Disenchant, and Scavenging Ooze with Withered Wretch.

The most obvious comparison to Chaos Warp should be Beast Within, since both are three mana instants that remove a permanent type their colors aren't supposed to be able to handle. Yet somehow the green card doesn't even get mentioned by the head of R&D and you bring up Pongify.

Blue's biggest slice of the color pie might as we be "being whined and bitched about by people who are bad at magic." If you really need an example, look no further then the entire Commander format. Green is the de facto best color, yet everybody still complains about "Spike and his islands." Go figure.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sadly 3/4 of the above cards are total crap except for the Limited. Or maybe they're not, but then why I need to look them up. (Hint: because no one plays them?)

Green has... burn in Hornet Sting
I look forward to your Unyaro Bee Sting Burn decklist.

Green Burn. Top Eights since 1994.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Blue? Really? How can people still justify saying things like this? Green is actively getting new printings in a larger share of the color pie then blue ever did in it's entire history combined.

While Green does get a good deal of the color pie (compare something like Bramblecrush or Acidic Slime to Red's sorry excuse for land destruction nowadays), it's nowhere near Blue-levels of absurdity. Blue has gotten a huge swath of effects over the years, many of them competitive or close to it. Green getting things like Harmonize or Hornet Sting doesn't really compare to things like Show and Tell, Omniscience, Propaganda, Vendillion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Delver, and any other "this was printed as BLUE?!" cards to say nothing of overpowered, yet thoroughly Blue, cards like Jace.


If you really need an example, look no further then the entire Commander format. Green is the de facto best color, yet everybody still complains about "Spike and his islands." Go figure.

Green still plays second fiddle to Blue in EDH and both colors are far and away better than the other three benighted wretches, especially Red/White.

[AndyTron]

Sadly 3/4 of the above cards are total crap except for the Limited. Or maybe they're not, but then why I need to look them up. (Hint: because no one plays them?)

I look forward to your Unyaro Bee Sting Burn decklist.

Green Burn. Top Eights since 1994.

This is legacy. Yes, the only green cards I mentioned to have any real format presence are Xantid Swarm, Ulvenwald Tracker, and Scavenging Ooze but given that probably about 100 non-land cards see regular tournament play out of over 10,000 legal ones that's 33% compared to roughly 1%. How many cards see legacy play out of each new set? Maybe between one and three on average? This is three out of 12 cards in a color that either shouldn't be able to do what it does that well, or at all.

Several of the other cards are also far from being limited fodder. Master of the Wild Hunt shows up in NicFit from time to time and Nature's Claim and show's up in combo sideboards and is also a vintage staple. And that's all just in legacy. The point is that even if they were all unplayable, green shouldn't have any of them, and it's color pie is far larger then blue's.

And finally, Hornet Sting is awful. It doesn't mean green should have gotten it. It's not as though Pongify Chaos Warp are tearing up the tourney scene.

[kusumoto]

This is legacy. Yes, the only green cards I mentioned to have any real format presence are Xantid Swarm, Ulvenwald Tracker, and Scavenging Ooze but given that probably about 100 non-land cards see regular tournament play out of over 10,000 legal ones that's 33% compared to roughly 1%. How many cards see legacy play out of each new set? Maybe between one and three on average? This is three out of 12 cards in a color that either shouldn't be able to do what it does that well, or at all.

Several of the other cards are also far from being limited fodder. Master of the Wild Hunt shows up in NicFit from time to time and Nature's Claim and show's up in combo sideboards and is also a vintage staple. And that's all just in legacy. The point is that even if they were all unplayable, green shouldn't have any of them, and it's color pie is far larger then blue's.

And finally, Hornet Sting is awful. It doesn't mean green should have gotten it. It's not as though Pongify Chaos Warp are tearing up the tourney scene.

I don't see why Nature's Claim is such a big deal.

It's just a usually better Naturalize. What is not green about this effect?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is legacy. Yes, the only green cards I mentioned to have any real format presence are Xantid Swarm, Ulvenwald Tracker, and Scavenging Ooze but given that probably about 100 non-land cards see regular tournament play out of over 10,000 legal ones that's 33% compared to roughly 1%. How many cards see legacy play out of each new set? Maybe between one and three on average? This is three out of 12 cards in a color that either shouldn't be able to do what it does that well, or at all.
Xantid Swarm are ten years old, Tracker sees nearly no play and Ooze is a good green creature with good green effect, so where's the trouble?



Several of the other cards are also far from being limited fodder. Master of the Wild Hunt shows up in NicFit from time to time and Nature's Claim and show's up in combo sideboards and is also a vintage staple. And that's all just in legacy. The point is that even if they were all unplayable, green shouldn't have any of them, and it's color pie is far larger then blue's.
Compared to JTMS or S&T and BS and basically any other blue card, Nature's Claim is ridiculous. It destroys artifact or enchantment and gives four life to them. Is it so op compared to Disenchant?



And finally, Hornet Sting is awful. It doesn't mean green should have gotten it.
But why? Isn't part of the fun with color pie the fact that WotC sometimes make card out of it? It'll be a bit boring if blue had all card draw, flyers and nothing else, black had all removal, intimidators and nothing else, etc.

There are other mechanics / design features (like transform cards) that I dislike, but I'm fine with occasional shake of color pie, especially when most of the cards are weak.

[AndyTron]

While Green does get a good deal of the color pie (compare something like Bramblecrush or Acidic Slime to Red's sorry excuse for land destruction nowadays), it's nowhere near Blue-levels of absurdity. Blue has gotten a huge swath of effects over the years, many of them competitive or close to it. Green getting things like Harmonize or Hornet Sting doesn't really compare to things like Show and Tell, Omniscience, Propaganda, Vendillion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Delver, and any other "this was printed as BLUE?!" cards to say nothing of overpowered, yet thoroughly Blue, cards like Jace.

Snappy and Clique are both very good cards, but I wouldn't call either of them unblue. Blue gets flash creatures, high power low toughness fliers, and actually does sometimes get to move cards between the opponent's hand and library although Wizards doesn't do it very often. I never really understood how anybody can call Snapcaster Mage unblue. Saying that it's unfair or that blue just shouldn't have it for some reason doesn't make it outside of it's color pie. Blue get's flash, 2/1 bodies at two mana, and instant/sorcery recursion. The argument I hear most is that it should have been red. This is flat out wrong. It's an invitational card. It should be whatever card Tiago Chan wants it to be. Show and tell is an old card. With the exception of swarm all the other cards I mentioned were printed in the last few years. It would never see print these days and definitely doesn't fit blues part of the pie. But at the time, it actually wasn't such a stretch. Propaganda effects were also not uncommon in blue at the time but have since been identified as mistakes and moved to other colors. But for some reason, whenever people talk about the color pie they talk about blue and count things that have long been identified as mistakes and ignore similarly out of place old cards like Touch of Honey or Miri's Guile. Also most old he cards you mentioned were at some point part of blue's color pie, and it's generally acknowledged that they shouldn't have been. Most of the cards I mentioned are straight up color bleed, and they rarely ever come up as examples of such.

I not denying that over the last twenty years blue has at different times had way ore of the pie then it should, I'm just saying that it's been a while since it's had the largest piece. Sometimes, when something has been true for so long, people just stop checking to see if it's still the case.



Green still plays second fiddle to Blue in EDH and both colors are far and away better than the other three benighted wretches, especially Red/White.

I've never actually played EDH, but I've read a lot about it and am familiar with the cardpool and most of the staples and common tactics. From what I can tell, the only things blues has that green doesn't are unconditional counters, cards that steal permanents, and time walk effects. Green has the best ramp, great card drawing (either best or second best depending on who you ask), excellent graveyard manipulation, and plenty of one card combos like T&N or hoof. It also does most other thing reasonably well. If that weren't enough Wizards has taken it upon themselves to print answers to two of blues three big advantages, counters and creature stealing, and both of those are lands. Which green happens to be the best at finding.

If green is not the de facto best color, it's at least debatable. And that doesn't add up when you compare how little heat its gets in respect to blue.

[AndyTron]

I don't see why Nature's Claim is such a big deal.

It's just a usually better Naturalize. What is not green about this effect?

It's kind of my whole point. Naturalize is a functional reprint of one of he most iconic white cards in Disenchant. Claim, along with Krosan Grip are both arguably better at doing things that green shouldn't be the best at.

[AndyTron]

Xantid Swarm are ten years old, Tracker sees nearly no play and Ooze is a good green creature with good green effect, so where's the trouble?

Yes. Nothing you said is incorrect. But I've only really been trying to make one point. That green has both the largest total part of the color pie and the most color bleed. Where as most of blues share of the pie has been systematically moved to other colors, green keeps getting more and more. For example, people complained that Vengevine seemed more red then green. MaRo claimed that green gets haste as tertiary, even though I've never been able to find an earlier mention of this. He went on to say that because haste is tertiary it's going to show up in green almost exclusively at mythic, which was supposed to explain Vengevine's power level. People bought this and stopped complaining. From then on green has been getting almost as many haste creatures as red, and certainly more then black.Strangleroot Geist and hoof being notable examples. Again, I'm not saying that green is the best color. Most of the cards I mentioned are not constructed worthy. But most magic cards are not constructed worthy, and green has the largest share of the color pie.


Compared to JTMS or S&T and BS and basically any other blue card, Nature's Claim is ridiculous. It destroys artifact or enchantment and gives four life to them. Is it so op compared to Disenchant?

S&T is a mistake, but JtMS and BS are just blue being the best at what blue is supposed to be the best at. Claim, while not overpowered in any sense, is green being the best at what white is supposed to be the best at.




But why? Isn't part of the fun with color pie the fact that WotC sometimes make card out of it? It'll be a bit boring if blue had all card draw, flyers and nothing else, black had all removal, intimidators and nothing else, etc.

There are other mechanics / design features (like transform cards) that I dislike, but I'm fine with occasional shake of color pie, especially when most of the cards are weak.

I'm not really in disagreement about this, I just couldn't figure out why Pongify and Chaos Warp were being singled out, while the entire color green was left unmentioned.

[FTW]

I think there are two confounded arguments here...

One person is arguing that Blue is by far a stronger color than Green.

One person is arguing that Green gets more out-of-color-pie cards/upgrades than other colors.

I don't think anyone is contesting that Brainstorm, Snappy, Clique, SnT and Jace are awesome and Legacy-defining, but (aside from SnT) they are distinctly blue effects. Delver is an exception, since Blue is historically supposed to have LESS efficient creatures than Green. Blue is just getting broken cards period, partly because blue's abilities are just more powerful parts of the game (stack interaction, card drawing). That's been a reality since alpha when Ancestral Recall easily outclassed Lightning Bolt and Healing Salve.


But they do seem to be trying to make green better and better at non-green things.

-Disenchant effects were historically White. They got shifted to green, which now does it better.
-Flash is traditionally blue, with green only getting flash weenies. Yeva and Wolfir Avenger say otherwise.
-Fight was historically Red (Tahngarth). It got shifted to green.
-Versatile land destruction was historically red (Fissure, Pillage, Aftershock). It has now been shifted to green (Acidic Slime, Bramblecrush).
-recurring haste creatures were historically red (Phoenixes). The best ones are now green (Vengevine, Strangleroot)

actually, seems like red is just getting shafted

[TsumiBand]

I do think Fight in Green is a little bit ridiculous. Card drawing is great though.

In fairness - Fight is pretty much just instant speed Provoke. Your creature is taking damage by fighting something. My personal beef with it is on the basis of flavor; it is way too precise and tactical for Green. Green would just as soon do something like "the creature you control with the higher power fights the creature with the highest power an opponent controls" because that is your natural order fight-for-dominance Green shit right there; Pit Fight is a fucking burn spell. If anything, it should have been in White because it is pin-point, tactical style "my guy moves in to take out your guy" type stuff. Not that White *needs* that kind of shit, it only has the best 1-mana removal spells in the game. But it just doesn't strike me as very Green.

Anyway land destruction still sucks

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I decided I won't discuss the fact that after twenty years of MtG printings, there's a green Disenchant. Because in all fairness, I see nothing to pore about - it's a Disenchant and that's about it.
If anybody hates the sliced and diced pie, he may play Old School MtG. But if I should choose one thing of all the things I hate about MtGs evolution in last fifteen years, I'd have to smoke something really venomous to exactly start with Naturalize.


-Disenchant effects were historically White. They got shifted to green, which now does it better.
-Flash is traditionally blue, with green only getting flash weenies. Yeva and Wolfir Avenger say otherwise.
-Fight was historically Red (Tahngarth). It got shifted to green.
-Versatile land destruction was historically red (Fissure, Pillage, Aftershock). It has now been shifted to green (Acidic Slime, Bramblecrush).
-recurring haste creatures were historically red (Phoenixes). The best ones are now green (Vengevine, Strangleroot)
Historically, green sucked except for Sylvan Library, Berserk and big dudes. (Drop of Honey ain't mistake, it's perfectly green card and one and only of its kind for centuries.)
Than WotC decided to change this. (About the same time they decided the whole game should not suck, read: Mirage development.) Enter Uktabi Orangutan. Over more than a decade, pie was sliced and I see no trouble in it. It still holds, maybe it's not that firm as it was, but there's nothing to do about it, the cards are already printed, moreover it's a marginal trouble. What I see as much more annoying is the trend of last three to five years and I seriously doubt that in the future years I will enjoy the game the same as I did for years. (That's why I'm slowly cashing out.) But this has nothing to do with Naturalize and much more with Emrakul, Omni, EtI, Grisly, new card frame, transform mechanics, power creep, WotCs gold hunts and overall pussyfication of game.

Nauralize is fine. LD isn't.

[thefreakaccident]

Poor sinkhole :(.

[OmniStrata]

Sinkhole seems to have disappeared from discussion... :frown:

Me? I'm LOVIN' sinkhole. Once I stuck it in my Pox deck in place of my Rancid Earths, ah how shiny the world became! Too slow? Da fuq?

On the play, by turn 3, I get 3 untapped lands and you have ONE! [even better if they decided to daze the Sinkhole only to get smallpoxed! This is Godly vs. Delver decks since on turn 3, they have just 1 land [dazed island previous turn] and 1 creature ^_^]

I will admit this however, without the combined force of Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole, the card by itself is moderate at best, though as a 2 drop, I'd say it's one of the best tempo thefts ever!

[thefreakaccident]

Smallpox is even worse than sinkhole lol, too unilateral... In order to use the card correctly (i.e. get true benefit from it), you need to run more lands (dead cards), or have no critters (no threats other than liliana/cursed scroll, and you might not even have those casting smallpox turn 2), or have no hand when the opponent has a hand.... All of which are absolutely awful even with the option of mana retrieval (loam/crucible). Yes boys and girls, I've tested pox decks as well.

TBH I've never been a fan of hymn in manadenial decks, as it is a blank later in the game, and my opponents always get super lucky with it never hitting lands/topdecking lands (I've learned in magic to design my decks with 1 idea in mind: I have awful luck, and my opponents will without fail get exactly what they need/want... This is why I allow my playtest partners to cheat to simulate 'perfect god draws' every game, because if you can't beat the perfect draw of another deck consistently, you might as well not even play yours). That being said though, hymn is still much much better than smallpox will ever be.

[HammafistRoob]

My favorite LD card is definitely Shadow of Doubt. It's actually very strong against things like GSZ, Infernal, Entomb, SFM, and Intuition as well so it's usually not a dead card.

According to blacklotusproject.com, a few days after I posted this SoD more than tripled in price. Starcity should hire me to write articles, apparently I'm godly.

[TsumiBand]

According to blacklotusproject.com, a few days after I posted this SoD more than tripled in price. Starcity should hire me to write articles, apparently I'm godly.

I noticed that. I googled it a little bit and thought maybe it was more to do with that Modern deck that got played a couple days before - not gonna re-search for it now b/c getting ready for work, but IIRC it did well (1st?) and had more than a few interesting card choices.

I definitely also made sure I knew where my Shadow of Doubts were, because reasons I guess. Only have two :(

Anyway, Shadow of Doubt is very cool, but I dunno if it is a card that makes LD a real thing anymore than Stifle does. As it applies to ruining fetchlands it's arguably much better, but it is another card that you wouldn't necessarily want to topdeck - it cycles (kind of) but then you're left with the chance of ripping your own tutor that you cannot cast in a meaningful way.

Still it has a host of applications - messes with tutors/fetchlands/SFM/KotR/Intuition/all manner of shit I can't name. I would love it to be more playable than I think it actually is, but it is very cool indeed.

[GreekAsTheGods]

tl;dr "I don't like that opponents can fight back."

Shucks, landlock isn't being supported well enough. As a fellow LD player I really dislike that my opponents are no longer forced to sit and watch me play MTG and are instead given the ability to participate in the games.

You see, at one time people like me and Original Poster would go to tournaments. We'd shuffle our decks and look across at the guy that was about to spectate his own loss with no options to stop it. Like the passenger in a car crash. And that was comforting... because it really took the opponent out of the equation really. It was kind of like playing solitaire. I felt like I was the lone controller of my fate.

Now though R&D have stated they don't like this.... they actually want me and others like me to play against another person!!!!!!!! A person who has options during their turn!! Why should my opponent be able to do things? I'm already damaging myself by drawing an additional card during my upkeep or playing Sign in Blood.... there shouldn't be an opponent damaging me too!!! Them doing damage to my life is really limiting to me.

You see... if I have no life I can't pay more life to draw cards.... all I get to do is destroy everything my opponent plays simply with the cards that I'd normally have in my hand. That's too restrictive. An opponent shouldn't be able to control my resources like that. If my opponent can lower my life by playing cards, then I can't pay that life to get more cards to prevent my opponent from ever being able to play anything.

Does that make sense? It's almost like my opponent is stopping me from playing solitaire by.... I dunno... involving themselves in the game....

It's ridiculous honestly. Totally agree with Original Poster here. Good Thread.

[Norm]

tl;dr "I don't like that opponents can fight back."

Shucks, landlock isn't being supported well enough. As a fellow LD player I really dislike that my opponents are no longer forced to sit and watch me play MTG and are instead given the ability to participate in the games.

You see, at one time people like me and Original Poster would go to tournaments. We'd shuffle our decks and look across at the guy that was about to spectate his own loss with no options to stop it. Like the passenger in a car crash. And that was comforting... because it really took the opponent out of the equation really. It was kind of like playing solitaire. I felt like I was the lone controller of my fate.

Now though R&D have stated they don't like this.... they actually want me and others like me to play against another person!!!!!!!! A person who has options during their turn!! Why should my opponent be able to do things? I'm already damaging myself by drawing an additional card during my upkeep or playing Sign in Blood.... there shouldn't be an opponent damaging me too!!! Them doing damage to my life is really limiting to me.

You see... if I have no life I can't pay more life to draw cards.... all I get to do is destroy everything my opponent plays simply with the cards that I'd normally have in my hand. That's too restrictive. An opponent shouldn't be able to control my resources like that. If my opponent can lower my life by playing cards, then I can't pay that life to get more cards to prevent my opponent from ever being able to play anything.

Does that make sense? It's almost like my opponent is stopping me from playing solitaire by.... I dunno... involving themselves in the game....

It's ridiculous honestly. Totally agree with Original Poster here. Good Thread.

Too far

[GreekAsTheGods]

Too far

Perhaps the sarcasm is a bit much. But I stand by the underlying idea that LD (a deck I really did use for an extremely long period of time) is counter-intuitive and, in any game where it works properly, basically leads to a 1 v 0 game where the other player watches you play out your turns in hopes that you don't have another LD card waiting in your hand.

I was trying to post as if I felt that the opponent being able to interact and do damage to me was a denial of resources on the same level as mindlessly destroying an opponents' land would be. ">_> I thought I succeeded in that respect....


Poe's Law?

[ahg113]

Perhaps the sarcasm is a bit much. But I stand by the underlying idea that LD (a deck I really did use for an extremely long period of time) is counter-intuitive and, in any game where it works properly, basically leads to a 1 v 0 game where the other player watches you play out your turns in hopes that you don't have another LD card waiting in your hand.

I was trying to post as if I felt that the opponent being able to interact and do damage to me was a denial of resources on the same level as mindlessly destroying an opponents' land would be. ">_> I thought I succeeded in that respect....


Poe's Law?

Miracles giving a resurgence to the CounterTop shell makes this argument moot. One sided strategies are rampant. WotC can push versions of solitaire willy-nilly, just not an LD flavor. The lack of the LD flavor is what's lame.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Miracles giving a resurgence to the CounterTop shell makes this argument moot. One sided strategies are rampant. WotC can push versions of solitaire willy-nilly, just not an LD flavor. The lack of the LD flavor is what's lame.

CounterTop stands more as a a symbol of how terrible R&D are at Set Design these days. Onslaught Block was the last block that I felt was decently balanced. Ever since the start of Mirrodin block there's been gems like Skullclamp making it through development somehow. Most of the problem cards in CounterTop were released Post-Mirrodin block and are the product of poor design. Top was Kamigawa, Counterbalance was Coldsnap. Jace was Worldwake and stands as one of the biggest oversights and design mistakes in pretty much any TCG. You can't really use that particular deck as a reason to give more support to LD since that deck is loaded to the teeth with cards that should have straight up never been printed.

LD has existed forever and has always been a one-sided strat. And I say that as someone who primarily ran the deck type for a very very long time. There were some good non-black cards added to LD even as late as Lava Blister in Odyssey. Tremors was pretty decent too if you already solidified a resource advantage.

Pretty sure one-sided strats are something WotC want to get rid of. The fact that they're pushing new ones and bringing back dormant ones is more a result of terrible set design and oversights as opposed to being okay with the idea of one-sided strats.

[ahg113]

CounterTop stands more as a a symbol of how terrible R&D are at Set Design these days. Onslaught Block was the last block that I felt was decently balanced. Ever since the start of Mirrodin block there's been gems like Skullclamp making it through development somehow. Most of the problem cards in CounterTop were released Post-Mirrodin block and are the product of poor design. Top was Kamigawa, Counterbalance was Coldsnap. Jace was Worldwake and stands as one of the biggest oversights and design mistakes in pretty much any TCG. You can't really use that particular deck as a reason to give more support to LD since that deck is loaded to the teeth with cards that should have straight up never been printed.

LD has existed forever and has always been a one-sided strat. And I say that as someone who primarily ran the deck type for a very very long time. There were some good non-black cards added to LD even as late as Lava Blister in Odyssey. Tremors was pretty decent too if you already solidified a resource advantage.

Pretty sure one-sided strats are something WotC want to get rid of. The fact that they're pushing new ones and bringing back dormant ones is more a result of terrible set design and oversights as opposed to being okay with the idea of one-sided strats.

While I understand and agree with the majority of what you say, proof is in the pudding. WotC "pushing" one-sided strategies, even if ill informed/conceived/planned/etc. is still a relevant state effecting the game. I'd be inclined to fully agree if it weren't for the request of multiple mulligans- Jace, Counterbalance, Enter the Infinite, Omniscience etc.

Onslaught was an awesome block, nostalgia is fun- Rotlungs, Shepards, W.Wretchs, times were simpler with zombie clerics.

[GreekAsTheGods]

While I understand and agree with the majority of what you say, proof is in the pudding. WotC "pushing" one-sided strategies, even if ill informed/conceived/planned/etc. is still a relevant state effecting the game. I'd be inclined to fully agree if it weren't for the request of multiple mulligans- Jace, Counterbalance, etc.

Onslaught was an awesome block, nostalgia is fun- Rotlungs, Shepards, W.Wretchs, times were simpler with zombie clerics.


It's true, despite the pushing of one-sided strats being largely unintentional (top being released as an uncommon is some tell of how drastically they underestimated some of their creations) the strats were indeed still pushed and are still widespread and dominant. And LD definitely isn't worse than any of the current offenders on that front.

The main question is what do you consider to be a healthy game state. Should R&D really be looking at how to give LD the support they've unintentionally given to other one-sided strats or should they be looking at what they can do to limit the current dominant one-sided strats? It sounds like they want to do away with LD from what I heard. Would Legacy be healthier without it?

[TsumiBand]

Yeah, because "not interacting with lands because they are lands and now all the LD costs too much" is a much better place to be than "not interacting with creatures because fucking Hexproof makes my targeted removal impossible to cast".

The definition of "interaction" apparently needs to be expounded upon - it isn't just choosing blockers. Everyone has this different idea of how best the game expresses itself as an interactive, two-player event. Funneling the whole game through the battlefield doesn't foster interaction; it overloads one area of the game with opportunity and robs it from the rest. Why is blocking your guy with my guy more or less 'interactive' or 'filled with choices' than deciding whether or not I kill the creature with Lightning Bolt, or for that matter Counterspelling it before it touches play. Everyone's playing cards and stuff, who cares which zone your creature is in when I kill it.

And yeah sure, LD prevents people from playing their cards at all sometimes, but the strategy as a whole tends to fall flat on its face when it gets a shit draw, or the opponent viciously doesn't miss key land drops. EDH is battlecruiser Magic, and that is enough for me; why does it need to bleed over into Standard unchallenged with giant spells, bad counters and unanswerable mana ramp? These bonkers mid-game 5/5 protection from Spike creatures are fun and funny, and I really am a little kid when it comes to Magic cards and I would just as soon play guys and burn all day every day, but shit man. Some of this stuff just is not very cool at all.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Yeah, because "not interacting with lands because they are lands and now all the LD costs too much" is a much better place to be than "not interacting with creatures because fucking Hexproof makes my targeted removal impossible to cast".

The definition of "interaction" apparently needs to be expounded upon - it isn't just choosing blockers. Everyone has this different idea of how best the game expresses itself as an interactive, two-player event. Funneling the whole game through the battlefield doesn't foster interaction; it overloads one area of the game with opportunity and robs it from the rest. Why is blocking your guy with my guy more or less 'interactive' or 'filled with choices' than deciding whether or not I kill the creature with Lightning Bolt, or for that matter Counterspelling it before it touches play. Everyone's playing cards and stuff, who cares which zone your creature is in when I kill it.

And yeah sure, LD prevents people from playing their cards at all sometimes, but the strategy as a whole tends to fall flat on its face when it gets a shit draw, or the opponent viciously doesn't miss key land drops. EDH is battlecruiser Magic, and that is enough for me; why does it need to bleed over into Standard unchallenged with giant spells, bad counters and unanswerable mana ramp? These bonkers mid-game 5/5 protection from Spike creatures are fun and funny, and I really am a little kid when it comes to Magic cards and I would just as soon play guys and burn all day every day, but shit man. Some of this stuff just is not very cool at all.

I disagree on some of this. When I ran LD at local tournaments quite a few of my games would eventually result in my opponent just watching me play solitaire while staring at a graveyard full of what used to be his mana base. I was actually pretty disliked as a whole among the locals as well xD The strategy is frustrating and counter-intuitive on a level that no other strat really is. At least with things like CounterTop the strategy is "I'm going to optimize my own draws, make yours as crappy as possible and counter everything until Jace (A card that should have never been printed) instantly ends the game in my favor. The strat, while frustrating and counter-intuitive in its own right, at least gives the opponent the option to pay the mana and cast a spell even if it is countered in the end anyways.

From what I've heard.... sometimes as not so nice mutterings about my deck.... is there's nothing more frustrating than paying to enter a tournament and being denied the opportunity to even play MTG because your opponent just straight up removes your ability to play cards. Losing because your attempts to win were counter-played by someone still gives you the opportunity to "attempt to win". LD doesn't do that if the deck has even mediocre draws.

[troopatroop]

It's been years since Sinkhole "did" anything, but I'm not so sure that makes it bad. If only they could print some decent red nonbasic LD, Grixis could have something to show for it. Between Sinhole/Stifle/Wasteland/and X, that makes 16 or so good LD cards, which makes mana denial a seriously strong prospect. Obviously, that's never going to happen in the face of modern, so we're basically fucked forever. Sorry mate :(

[Barook]

is there's nothing more frustrating than paying to enter a tournament and being denied the opportunity to even play MTG because your opponent just straight up removes your ability to play cards.
RUG Delver can do this as well between free counters, Stifle and Wasteland if they have a decent draw.

Being instagibbed by combo on T1 or T2 when you don't play counters isn't that much fun, either. One of the reason why I play Dark Maverick over the GW variant now is access to T1 discard. Thalia, Teeg and whatever else hatebear you have in the deck won't do jackshit when they're on the play and go off on their T2.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's been years since Sinkhole "did" anything, but I'm not so sure that makes it bad. If only they could print some decent red nonbasic LD, Grixis could have something to show for it. Between Sinhole/Stifle/Wasteland/and X, that makes 16 or so good LD cards, which makes mana denial a seriously strong prospect. Obviously, that's never going to happen in the face of modern, so we're basically fucked forever. Sorry mate :(

_____________________
Other Fissure :r::r:

Sorcery (R)

Exile target non-Dragon
creature, non-basic land
or non-red planeswalker.

"Take care of holes."
_____________________


Am I doing it right?

[Lemnear]

_____________________
Other Fissure :r::r:

Sorcery (R)

Exile target non-Dragon
creature, non-basic land
or non-red planeswalker.

"Take care of holes."
_____________________


Am I doing it right?

I guess that would be ok for that cost. The question would be, if a single card would drag a player that deep into red alone. The issue is that red and black have no depths in WotC's Design of today.

Edit: Waiting for the first user mocking that it does no damage and thus is unplayable in Burn.dec ;D

[Barook]

Edit: Waiting for the first user mocking that it does no damage and thus is unplayable in Burn.dec ;D
You know what's really sad about this? It's actually Wizards current design strategy for red nowadays - slapping direct damage everywhere, whether you like it or not.

The freshly spoiled Destructive Revelry is just another case of this. And Chandra, Pyromaster's +1 is a prime example that they can't print any utility without direct damage anymore.

Edit: To be on the actual topic: Who asked this question? (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/58310665931/recently-a-thread-was-created-on-an-mtg-legacy-website)

[Lemnear]

What was ze actual question? Neither ze comment of MaRo nor ze comment of ze other users make any sense if zey use the Power 9 in basically ze same line to talk about Blightning and Birthing Pod. I'm confused

[TsumiBand]

I dunno exactly who asked that question, but MaRo's reply is aggravating as shit. Not because I particularly care whether or not Sinkhole is or isn't playable (it is, but LD.dec is not), but because he just isn't even slick about some of his sidesteps.


teluin asked: Recently, a thread was created on an MtG Legacy website titled: "sinkhole is bad and that makes me sad". I love the card Sinkhole, but the poster isn't exactly wrong about the card's power level either. I just mention this because of your comment on how power creep has been controlled for the last 10 years - it really hasn't. Yes I know examples can be named from early sets, but the same can be said for recent ones. Jace, Stoneforge, Delver, to name a few. Anyway, that's all.

MaRo: Alpha had the power nine. Name nine cards made in the last five years that even come close to matching those nine in power.



OK man, you're right, the Power 9 are baaaaahroken, which BTW is about as useful as the word "value" has become when discussing Magic cards. So instead of talking about the thing they asked about, just go off on a tangent and make it seem like the scope of the question is too small. "Guys guys we're forgetting the real issue here, Sinkhole's playability is a red herring when you consider fucking MOXEN"

It would legitimately be difficult to be in MaRo's position - Magic fanatics love/hate his game depending on spoilers of the day and their last experience playing the game, and he does respond to very pointed remarks from time to time. The context of the question is clearly about the Sinkhole is bad thread - from a Legacy website - so why would the Power Nine have anything to do with anything? Just say "market research shows people feel locked out of the game when LD works, so yeah Sinkhole isn't probably very good in Legacy but like I said 47,000 times before, we aren't printing anything harsher than Craterize, so sorry Legacy you guys have to have lands in play just like the rest of us."

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I guess that would be ok for that cost. The question would be, if a single card would drag a player that deep into red alone. The issue is that red and black have no depths in WotC's Design of today.

Edit: Waiting for the first user mocking that it does no damage and thus is unplayable in Burn.dec ;D

You know what's really sad about this? It's actually Wizards current design strategy for red nowadays - slapping direct damage everywhere, whether you like it or not.

The freshly spoiled Destructive Revelry is just another case of this. And Chandra, Pyromaster's +1 is a prime example that they can't print any utility without direct damage anymore.
True. This is really annoying trend; not that it's completely bad idea, but it's sooo boring. If they'd be to redesign Burning Wish today, it would deal 1 dmg for sure.

Speaking of Sinkhole: It's legal in T1 and T1,5 only, one of which a completely insane format and the other is defined by Daze and one-mana critters. (Ok, I'm exagerrating a bit... but just a bit.) No wonder that Hole ain't what it was, otoh, I think that it could be still useful if used in correct shell.
The black disrutive tactics have two troubles: both LD and discard gets weaker as the game progresses. But these two combined should fare well, as blank card (be it discard or LD) is dead no more - there will always be a target for your disruption, be it land or hand, because less lands in play = more cards in hand. This is hardly surprising, I know, but what surprises me is the fact that except for Pox, there are very few (mono)black aggro/control decks that use thos tactics of continuous depletion of opposing resources.
Recently I tested RUG on MWS and I ran into a monoblack deck using these tools (along with ten or so creature removal) and I was completely dead to it. Light on creatures, my deck was unable to overcome the press with just mere "Delver, flip, Force, Force, Force until they die", and since turn 3 or so, I was completely unable to play anything.

If combined with clock (be it sole Ghast or whatever), the fact that he attacks all of my resources (even gravey with DRS), forced me to scoop. So there's not only the usual Pox decks, but maybe one may find different disruptive tactics.

I imagine something like this:

4 Wasteland
X Swamp

4 Drit
9 removal
4 DRS
4 Confidant
4 Hypno Specter (I'm serious)
4 Bloodghast
4 Sinkhole
1 Icequake (dodges Spell Snare :cool: )
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn

May it work?

[GreekAsTheGods]

It's been years since Sinkhole "did" anything, but I'm not so sure that makes it bad. If only they could print some decent red nonbasic LD, Grixis could have something to show for it. Between Sinhole/Stifle/Wasteland/and X, that makes 16 or so good LD cards, which makes mana denial a seriously strong prospect. Obviously, that's never going to happen in the face of modern, so we're basically fucked forever. Sorry mate :(


Lava Blister is good non-basic LD. Pardic Miner can stall an opponents' land drops for a turn as well. It isn't direct LD but it still forces the opponent into 1 turn of draw-go.

There's also some legitimacy to a Green/Black LD archetype based around manlanding an opponents lands and then genociding them down with affects that damage creatures. It takes a bit more skill to play than standard MBLD but I don't see that as a bad thing. I won like $250 once with a deck using Kamahl and Pestilence. There's probably better substitutes to Pestilence these days too.

[Teluin]

Edit: To be on the actual topic: Who asked this question? (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/58310665931/recently-a-thread-was-created-on-an-mtg-legacy-website)

I did

[GreekAsTheGods]

I've been saying the power creep in recent years has been ridiculous and everyone seems to think it's perfectly fine as long as they have 4 copies of all the broken cards. Nobody cares about long term game health.... xD

"OP card is fine as long as I own 4 of them. Then they aren't OP cards, they are just MY cards." -MTG Community 2013.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lava Blister is good non-basic LD. Pardic Miner can stall an opponents' land drops for a turn as well. It isn't direct LD but it still forces the opponent into 1 turn of draw-go.

There's also some legitimacy to a Green/Black LD archetype based around manlanding an opponents lands and then genociding them down with affects that damage creatures. It takes a bit more skill to play than standard MBLD but I don't see that as a bad thing. I won like $250 once with a deck using Kamahl and Pestilence. There's probably better substitutes to Pestilence these days too.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=131005&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=322&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=368542&type=card

This way all of their lands become Swamps, and note how those can be enchanted, killed, and so forth... :smile: Sadly it's more like a copypaste from the "Lets break some horribad cards" thread than anything serious... :laugh:

[GreekAsTheGods]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=131005&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=322&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=368542&type=card

This way all of their lands become Swamps, and note how those can be enchanted, killed, and so forth... :smile: Sadly it's more like a copypaste from the "Lets break some horribad cards" thread than anything serious... :laugh:


xD I had no idea that bell existed. Kamahl is still decent IMO. Cheating him into play in a combination LD Reanimator deck or something. The way I did it back in the day wouldn't be nearly fast enough nowadays.

[ahg113]

"OP card is fine as long as I own 4 of them. Then they aren't OP cards, they are just MY cards." -MTG Community 2013.

+1

[Barook]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=131005&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=322&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=368542&type=card

This way all of their lands become Swamps, and note how those can be enchanted, killed, and so forth... :smile: Sadly it's more like a copypaste from the "Lets break some horribad cards" thread than anything serious... :laugh:
Why not go for monoblack and Curse of Death's Hold? Watch your opponent never having lands in play ever again.

[TsumiBand]

I've been saying the power creep in recent years has been ridiculous and everyone seems to think it's perfectly fine as long as they have 4 copies of all the broken cards. Nobody cares about long term game health.... xD

"OP card is fine as long as I own 4 of them. Then they aren't OP cards, they are just MY cards." -MTG Community 2013.

I don't own any Sinkholes... and they are no longer fine nor are they OP. Creatures and effects that get them into play are more powerful than the LD which used to keep them in check. Turn 1 Aether Vial made LD less viable, Show and Tell made LD less viable, a flipped Delver makes it less viable, and so many other effects that just diminish the returns of killing land when the threats are either already in play or don't need land to come into play.

[Dice_Box]

I run LD in one of my stompy builds. A Moggcatcher is used to fetch a Goblin Settler and then Kiki makes copies. But even that is only a secondary part of the deck since the main way I lock out land is with 8 moon effects.

This was always going to happen, Wotc has long said that their vision of the game did not include more LD. Shy of a major shift in policy this is unlikely to change.

[HammafistRoob]

1) The black disrutive tactics have two troubles: both LD and discard gets weaker as the game progresses. But these two combined should fare well, as blank card (be it discard or LD) is dead no more - there will always be a target for your disruption, be it land or hand, because less lands in play = more cards in hand. This is hardly surprising,

2) I know, but what surprises me is the fact that except for Pox, there are very few (mono)black aggro/control decks that use thos tactics of continuous depletion of opposing resources.

3) Recently I tested RUG on MWS and I ran into a monoblack deck using these tools (along with ten or so creature removal) and I was completely dead to it. Light on creatures, my deck was unable to overcome the press with just mere "Delver, flip, Force, Force, Force until they die", and since turn 3 or so, I was completely unable to play anything.

If combined with clock (be it sole Ghast or whatever), the fact that he attacks all of my resources (even gravey with DRS), forced me to scoop. So there's not only the usual Pox decks, but maybe one may find different disruptive tactics.

4) I imagine something like this:

4 Wasteland
X Swamp

4 Drit
9 removal
4 DRS
4 Confidant
4 Hypno Specter (I'm serious)
4 Bloodghast
4 Sinkhole
1 Icequake (dodges Spell Snare :cool: )
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn

May it work?

1) Why do you care about their hand if they have no lands? Just smash every dude/land they play and continue to beat face. Use SDT and fetchies to filter bad cards away.

2) Since people play Leyline of Sanctity, it is extremely hard to justify playing a lot of targeted discard. I hate every single Leyline ever printed because they take interaction out of the game. Sure it does nothing to your LD, but the decks packing LoS can win with two lands easily if you waste all you turns trying to blow up their land while they cantrip into more lands. Also turn 1 DrS into turn 2 KotR just took a massive dump in your cornflakes. Land destruction spells suck. (@OP) Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it. The game changes as time goes on, nobody wanted to eat all of their Mogg Fanatics when the combat damage changed.

3) RUG gets polished off by random jank decks, it's designed to beat tier 2+ decks. I once beat a friend of mines' RUG build playing Lorwyn block Rw Giants, 5 straight games. Does that mean I should think Giants is a viable Legacy strategy? Hells no.

4) I am the godfather of MBAC. I used to win/consistently top8 with it when everyone considered it awful. I just don't think it's time yet, although The Gate and Pox are Tier 2 so all hope isn't lost yet. That list looks fun as hell, but I really don't like the LD, except Wasteland obviously. I feel you could use those 5 slots and probably axe the Hippies (frown town) so 9 slots to shore up whatever matchups your expecting. I'm also not the biggest fan of Hymn anymore, sure it's card advantage but really only if you pluck 2 relevant cards. I feel like one mana discard is far superior these days. I mean we have Inquisition, Seize, Duress, and CABAL THERAPY? Knowledge of their possible lines makes it easy to play optimally. Not to mention Hymn is just too slow against any form of combo these days unless you're on the play or you also have a one mana discard spell to make sure they don't go off Turn 2. That's of course assuming they don't just Duress you first taking your Duress and laugh as they just took away your only play for the whole game.

Damn I wanna play monoblack, but first I must burn every Leyline of Sanctshitty ever made.

[GreekAsTheGods]

I don't own any Sinkholes... and they are no longer fine nor are they OP. Creatures and effects that get them into play are more powerful than the LD which used to keep them in check. Turn 1 Aether Vial made LD less viable, Show and Tell made LD less viable, a flipped Delver makes it less viable, and so many other effects that just diminish the returns of killing land when the threats are either already in play or don't need land to come into play.

Aether Vial can just be nuked with abrupt Decay if you use Bayous in your deck. I honestly haven't run LD since MM was legal, so I can't comment on spells like Show and Tell or Shallow Grave or Sneak Attack, etc etc.

If someone beats you because they don't need land to play things though, and your deck is solely aiming to beat them by destroying their lands.... by that logic don't they deserve to win?

[TsumiBand]

Aether Vial can just be nuked with abrupt Decay if you use Bayous in your deck. I honestly haven't run LD since MM was legal, so I can't comment on spells like Show and Tell or Shallow Grave or Sneak Attack, etc etc.

If someone beats you because they don't need land to play things though, and your deck is solely aiming to beat them by destroying their lands.... by that logic don't they deserve to win?

http://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Not+sure+if+trolling+_a5c70830dd7a0a90225cad028ca88767.jpg

Pretty much all of Legacy is a ton of spells which are grossly undercosted, so I guess I'm saying that every deck in the field is trying to do precisely that. Sinkhole and friends are generally not enough to effectively stymie all the things anymore. So, every deck ever is aiming at "do as many things as possible with as few mana as needed" and they are all better than dedicated land destruction for this reason. Asking whether or not it's "deserved" feels like you're telling me I'm surprised by my own argument, was that on purpose? O_o

[Gheizen64]

http://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Not+sure+if+trolling+_a5c70830dd7a0a90225cad028ca88767.jpg

Pretty much all of Legacy is a ton of spells which are grossly undercosted, so I guess I'm saying that every deck in the field is trying to do precisely that. Sinkhole and friends are generally not enough to effectively stymie all the things anymore. So, every deck ever is aiming at "do as many things as possible with as few mana as needed" and they are all better than dedicated land destruction for this reason. Asking whether or not it's "deserved" feels like you're telling me I'm surprised by my own argument, was that on purpose? O_o

He's on a baiting spree, i suggest you to ignore him until he stabilize.

[GreekAsTheGods]

http://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Not+sure+if+trolling+_a5c70830dd7a0a90225cad028ca88767.jpg

Pretty much all of Legacy is a ton of spells which are grossly undercosted, so I guess I'm saying that every deck in the field is trying to do precisely that. Sinkhole and friends are generally not enough to effectively stymie all the things anymore. So, every deck ever is aiming at "do as many things as possible with as few mana as needed" and they are all better than dedicated land destruction for this reason. Asking whether or not it's "deserved" feels like you're telling me I'm surprised by my own argument, was that on purpose? O_o

No, and "telling me I'm surprised by my own argument" doesn't even make remote sense. I made no reference to anything about surprise or your state of mind.

If a figure skater hits another in the leg with a steel pipe hoping to win from crippling her opponent and the other figure skater puts her skates on her hands and wins the olympics by skating in a handstand I'd say she earned her olympic medal.

If an LD deck tries to win by LD and another deck wins because they can do things without land then they deserve to win.

If figure skate A goes back next olympics and tries the same thing and loses again then I'd say maybe it's not meant to be and she should revise her strategy.

Same thing here. People love to attribute lack of success to other things, in this case it's WotC. But they've said straight up that they don't like LD and it's not a strategy that they want to promote. Those statements are pretty easily accessible to anyone who has the internet. If steel pipe to the knees isn't working then abandon Tanya Harding. If killing an opponents land isn't doing anything then aim elsewhere.



He's on a baiting spree, i suggest you to ignore him until he stabilize.

A "baiting spree"... you heard it here first..... xD Sounds legit.

[TsumiBand]

He's on a baiting spree, i suggest you to ignore him until he stabilize.

Sounds about right.

Land destruction sucks, you guys.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Sounds about right.

Land destruction sucks, you guys.

Destroy Land ----> Lose Game ----> Destroy Other Things
Destroy Land ----> Lose Game ----> Repeat

Option 1 sounds better but it seems I'll be written off as a troll and you'll go with option 2 instead. Good luck with that.

[TsumiBand]

I honestly haven't run LD since MM was legal, so I can't comment on spells like Show and Tell or Shallow Grave or Sneak Attack, etc etc.

I hope you were referring to Mental Misstep, but in case you meant Masques - I get the joke now. How long has Sneak Attack been a deck, again? It was pretty well-off during the Misstep-legal days, but you seem to be inferring you have no experience with or against the deck.


Destroy Land ----> Lose Game ----> Destroy Other Things
Destroy Land ----> Lose Game ----> Repeat

Option 1 sounds better but it seems I'll be written off as a troll and you'll go with option 2 instead. Good luck with that.

I swear to Christ, your reading comprehension is sloppy like Dakota Fanning at a Ke$ha concert.

Nothing makes any sense anymore. I'm locking myself in an empty dishwasher with Drano and bleach and green food coloring. I don't even care what happens next. Science!!

[GreekAsTheGods]

I hope you were referring to Mental Misstep, but in case you meant Masques - I get the joke now. How long has Sneak Attack been a deck, again? It was pretty well-off during the Misstep-legal days, but you seem to be inferring you have no experience with or against the deck.


Mental Misstep made everything easy to deal with... was what I meant... and was in the last LD deck I used.

But nice work warping the statement into something completely different.

It's like that one time when you somehow twisted what I said to somehow being you surprised at your own argument. I can see how you're so often confused when you're not only arguing with another forum poster but some voice in your head who's arguing about something completely different.

[FieryBalrog]

Destroy Land ----> Lose Game ----> Destroy Other Things
Destroy Land ----> Lose Game ----> Repeat

Option 1 sounds better but it seems I'll be written off as a troll and you'll go with option 2 instead. Good luck with that.

How are you not getting the issue? Just read the thread title ffs. You're tilting at windmills here.

[GreekAsTheGods]

How are you not getting the issue? Just read the thread title ffs. You're tilting at windmills here.

I get the issue and responded directly to it multiple times. Although people replied to it trying to twist it into weird passive aggressive unrelated statements about their stand of mind the title topic has been addressed and runs into a dead end at the same place any way you go about talking about it.

New LD support isn't being printed because WotC doesn't like that strat.

With that said, one can either continue playing it as is or change up strats.

If they wanted LD to be an option they'd just unban Strip Mine. They reprinted it in from the Vault, it's not like the card is inaccessible. They don't want the strat to be viable though.