[SCD] Epic Experiment

[Tombstalker]

Greetings MTGS, im new to the ins and outs of posting an SCD topic so please bear with me.

Ive been working on a deck built around epic experiment from return to ravnica. The card has seen play in the Modern format and now I would like to start a discussion on it for Legacy.

The card is reminiscent of a powered down and currently banned mind's desire possibly even more similar in function to casting multiple shardless agent. Either effect is potentially broken in the right context and so I believe epic experiment can also be broken.

So far I have been attempting to utilize the card in a primarily Ru storm shell where it attempts to go off early by "short storming" or "cascading" into multiple powerful spells, the best of which so far being ancestral vision, empty the warrens and grapeshot while cascading through multiple cantrips and rituals to refuel the hand and generate a second or subsequent lethal combo. Ive had the deck manage to free cast 3 ancestral visions followed by EtW once followed by a lethal grapeshot although I admit this is not the norm and not even typical at this point.

The reason for the endeavor, besides the fun of trying something new, is to run a predominantly red combo deck that uses repeated brute force to win rather than a single combo turn, although hopefully capable of either. With these aspects should (in theory) come less reliance on protection and more resilience to countermagic (and possibly to a lesser extent hand disruption) since the deck runs multiple wincons MD as opposed to tutors. Between experiment, empty and visions main the deck should be able to power through opposing protection by exhausting it. I am not sure this statement will prove true or that the direction I have taken is the correct one but its where ive been testing.

Initially I intended to avoid the use of staples such as LED, IT and the color black since ideally I would like the deck to be able to recover and refuel after a short storming rather than dump its hand for hellbent to help give it the ability to grind. However a lack of efficient red rituals has led me to splash into black for dark rits and therapies. I would love to find alternatives but to this point the deck remains inconsistent and can at times get "business flooded".

Lastly I have not focused much on a protection package yet rather working on the basic function of the deck as primary concern. Any help by all you Legacy guru's out there would be welcomed.

The very rough list:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe

4xCabal Therapy

4 Epic Experiment
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Grapeshot

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Island


And here are a few other cards, some have been tested to greater or lesser degree's, some not at all:


Personal tutor
Silence
Simian spirit guide
Lotus bloom
Guttersnipe
Seething song
Pyretic ritual
Manamorphose
Reforge the soul
Remand
Past in flames
Overmaster
Goblin electromancer
Blood moon
Infernal plunge
tendrils of agony
lion's eye diamond

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Is manamorphose really worse than Probe? That seems like weakest card in the deck, I also believe you could probably get away with one or two copies of tendrils so you're epic experiments have a higher chance of being lethal.

[Tombstalker]

Thats hard to answer at this point. Usually id say probe hands down due to information and therapy but here its a mana fixing cantrip thats hopefully free which likely puts it on par. Ultimately I would like to run both but 60 fills up quick. Tendrils main might be correct as you say but more than 1-2 gets clunky quick. I could try replacing a grapeshot or two?

[rufus]

Epic Experiment doesn't shuffle before the reveal, which means it can work with deck stacking effects like Lim-Dul's Vault, Scroll Rack, or Insidious Dreams. Another thing that might be interesting are recycling effects like Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains.

[Tombstalker]

Oh excellent thoughts brother I hadnt considered any of those yet except PiF. Thank you.

[HPB_Eggo]

How much do you usually play Experiment for? I'm going to try and come up with some card suggestions of my own, but it's difficult to tell on early examination just how much you can put into it, either on a more 'regular' turn or a straight combo turn.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure Cabal Ritual would be stronger than Desperate Ritual here. As pointed out above you'll fill up your graveyard pretty fast if you cast an early 'small' epic experiment, and Cabal Ritual will make all of your later Experiments that much bigger.

[Tombstalker]

In testing I usually aim for X = 4+ since even this low will fizzle without prior setup although sometimes ill go for less if I know whats coming up. Some more suggestions would be great.

I know experiment has huge potential if we can just unlock it, dependent mostly on setup and what flips after.

For example 3 storm cards = 9 total copies if you've only cast experiment prior, so experiment for 4-> cantrip + 3 consecutive tendrils is lethal off only 1 card in hand and 6 mana..

It could even go down the path of doomsday piles in a way except without committing removing your entire deck, or the brain fry.

Edit heres a couple that fit this route:


ancestral knowledge
index


Edit Edit- lim-dul's vault is starting to make this thing come together, might just be the engine it needed. List is drastically different now ill post changes if something solidifies.

[apple713]

In testing I usually aim for X = 4+ since even this low will fizzle without prior setup although sometimes ill go for less if I know whats coming up. Some more suggestions would be great.

I know experiment has huge potential if we can just unlock it, dependent mostly on setup and what flips after.

For example 3 storm cards = 9 total copies if you've only cast experiment prior, so experiment for 4-> cantrip + 3 consecutive tendrils is lethal off only 1 card in hand and 6 mana..

It could even go down the path of doomsday piles in a way except without committing removing your entire deck, or the brain fry.

Edit heres a couple that fit this route:


ancestral knowledge
index



i believe the cards you are looking for are


long-term plans
lost hours




but this belongs in a storm deck hands down

[FTW]

I don't like Cabal Therapy in here if you are going for a brute force strategy that doesn't need protection. I think it just dilutes the strategy and the effectiveness of your Epics and random spell chaining. I think those spells would only be good if: a) you ran some sort of combo setup to stack your topdeck and needed to protect it so you could pull off a very specific Epic and b) ran some sort of fodder creature for Therapy other than EtW. I don't think that's where you want the deck to go though...

Wouldn't this deck just get that much more resilient with Burning Wish?

i.e.:

//36 mana:
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Seething Song
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain

//11 win:
4 Burning Wish
3 Epic Experiment
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

//12 cantrip:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Ancestral Vision

//Wishboard:
Empty the Warrens
Epic Experiment
Diminishing Returns
Grapeshot
Past in Flames
Cave-In
Shattering Spree
Goblin War Strike


You'd basically get a much more resilient version of Belcher.

I'm worried that if you go the Dark Rit/Cabal Rit route you'll end up with something like this:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Burning Wish
3 Epic Experiment
3 Empty the Warrens

Etc, at which point you're just a worse version of TES

What about going the EPIC PYROMANCER route? This is probably better suited to casual or Modern, but you could run
4 Probe + 4 Manamorphose
Brainstorm + Ponder
rituals
Epic Experiment
Empty the Warrens + Young Pyromancer
draw 7s (Reforge the Soul, which you could set up to Miracle via Brainstorm or get for free off Epic) or draw 4s (Infernal Contract)
other profit

Seems like you'd be able to churn out a bunch of tokens, rip their hand with Cabal Therapies up the wazoo, and then win with token swarm or grapeshot or something.

[Tombstalker]

i believe the cards you are looking for are


long-term plans
lost hours
Sweet youve found the tutor for a kill condition! (nm glossed over the 3cc). Also I gotta say I just started testing full LDVs and 2 ancestral knowledge and that card is fucking nuts with experiment!! Drop it, set up your next 10 cards (removing lands) then watch the deck cascade through itself to a tendrils or even grapeshot kill haha.

FTW- I like the wish idea and dropping protection (since I cant squeeze it at this point anyway). The rest is a lot to absorb but I agree about not wanting to be a worse TES.

[apple713]

Sweet youve found the tutor for a kill condition! (nm glossed over the 3cc). Also I gotta say I just started testing full LDVs and 2 ancestral knowledge and that card is fucking nuts with experiment!! Drop it, set up your next 10 cards (removing lands) then watch the deck cascade through itself to a tendrils or even grapeshot kill haha.

FTW- I like the wish idea and dropping protection (since I cant squeeze it at this point anyway). The rest is a lot to absorb but I agree about not wanting to be a worse TES.

i feel like this deck doesn't have advantages over the tes / ant variants. lets say tes generates 7 mana to start combing. is x=5 really going to get you there? wouldnt you be better off with a burning wish or ill gotten gains?

[Tombstalker]

At this point I cant argue that. But I feel were barely delving the surface here and the deck will need protection, likely silence/chant effects but thats for later. For now picture this, we setup via LDV or even better ancestral knowledge, experiment into the top 3-5 choosing not to cast PiF (goes to grave) gaining HUGE mana off free rits, flashback PiF then an even larger experiment (after LDV again or rest of ancestral knowledge) then proceed through rinse repeat through the whole deck while refueling your hand off free ancestral visions..

The goal im working towards is to cascade through the deck without going all in on LED or with ad naus thus keeping fuel for another run if disrupted. The secondary option would be to be able to combo off traditionally with tutor/cantrip chains or just repeated short storms. Think of experiment as the tutor that starts the chain rather then ends it.

Edit- also consider topdecking a infernal tutor is usually not enough even 1 turn later unless the gamestate is very late. Topdecking LDV/knowledge to find experiment can spark a combo. Also its been pretty easy so far to set up small experiments to get things like BS + free ancestral recalls so the deck can seriously grind. These are optimal situations obviously though they dont occur all the time, yet.

[apple713]

At this point I cant argue that. But I feel were barely delving the surface here and the deck will need protection, likely silence/chant effects but thats for later. For now picture this, we setup via LDV or even better ancestral knowledge, experiment into the top 3-5 choosing not to cast PiF (goes to grave) gaining HUGE mana off free rits, flashback PiF then an even larger experiment (after LDV again or rest of ancestral knowledge) then proceed through rinse repeat through the whole deck while refueling your hand off free ancestral visions..

The goal im working towards is to cascade through the deck without going all in on LED or with ad naus thus keeping fuel for another run if disrupted. The secondary option would be to be able to combo off traditionally with tutor/cantrip chains or just repeated short storms. Think of experiment as the tutor that starts the chain rather then ends it.

Edit- also consider topdecking a infernal tutor is usually not enough even 1 turn later unless the gamestate is very late. Topdecking LDV/knowledge to find experiment can spark a combo.

I started goldfishing my version

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58123

took out 3x cabal therapies for epic experiements just to test. The experiments are enablers but is it trying to follow the ANT route or is it trying to create its own path?

If its trying to create its own path then you must ask yourself, what does it do best?

It can cast a small number of spells in a chain BUT only instant and sorcery spells, SO, if x = 5 i can on average cast 3x spells for free off the top.... In a best case scenario what would you do with 3 spells with CMC <= 5?

when you can answer that question then you can really start building. I think 7 mana is reasonable amount to expect. 6 is probably more realistic but whatever.

what can you do in a best case scenario with x=5 ? Pick 3 spells with cmc <=5

[Tombstalker]

4*Lotus Petal
4*Dark Ritual
4*Rite of Flame
4*Cabal Ritual

4*Brainstorm
4*Ponder
4*Probe
3 manamorphose
2 ancestral vision

4*Epic Experiment
4 LDV
2 ancestral knowledge

1 PiF
1 ToA
1 Grapeshot

15 lands

Actually there's another card or two (62 but I'm on my phone now).

I think I will try to answer the questions you pose because it may tell if the deck is worth pursuing. The good news is between LDV and knowledge we can basically build the best case scenario of 3-5 cards.

Here's a question, what potentially broken cards can we fit as 1-2 ofs in addition to storm spells and ancestral recall? I like the draw 7 idea especially if chants are cast first.

Experiment is kinda like AdN that you can cast at 1 life, but can still fizzle just the same. Free rits are like having a deck full of LEDs without causing hellbent.

[rufus]

...
It can cast a small number of spells in a chain BUT only instant and sorcery spells, SO, if x = 5 i can on average cast 3x spells for free off the top.... In a best case scenario what would you do with 3 spells with CMC <= 5?

when you can answer that question then you can really start building. I think 7 mana is reasonable amount to expect. 6 is probably more realistic but whatever.

what can you do in a best case scenario with x=5 ? Pick 3 spells with cmc <=5

Channel the Suns,Seething Song,Past in Flames->Epic Experiment (X>11)?

[apple713]

Channel the Suns,Seething Song,Past in Flames->Epic Experiment (X>11)?

key there being past in flames. which seems like an auto include fro this deck

[HPB_Eggo]

I think the strongest facet of this sort of deck - at least when compared to ANT or TES - is the fact that a 'fizzled' combo can turn into another combo the turn after. Capitalizing on that aspect of the deck as opposed to going all-in on an Epic Experiment with the hopes of winning or casting a second Epic Experiment seems like the correct direction to go.

Past in Flames is a great example of capitalizing this, as would be Cabal Ritual. Keeping up with disruption over simply dumping tons of acceleration on your combo turn gives you the ability to destroy hands with Epic Experiment, which then gives you 1-2 more turns of breathing room for casting your second Experiment. Add in the fact that Grapeshot and/or EtW is largely comfortable with winning over multiple turns and it seems like you could make a deck that combos into applying pressure, then combos again into applying more pressure, and just keeps applying pressure until it wins.

[4eak]

Oddly enough, I've been playing around with Epic Experiment in this thread. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26525-Epic-Experiment) I see three possible routes:

1) Red-splashed High Tide

In this case, you really do have an incredible mana ramp to abuse Epic experiment (there isn't a better ramp as far as I'm concerned), and the deck can be built with nothing but instants and sorceries. You basically have Epic Experiment and Time Spiral (I've been using Mind's Desire because I fucking love that card) working fairly nicely together. It might be win more though.

2) Go for a Past in Flames/Burning Wish based ritual deck, as FTW pointed out to me.

Unfortunately, from what I can tell (in my fairly brief experience with this approach), this deck is just too slow compared to Belcher or AdN, and it isn't consistent enough. Even if we were just interested in making a budget deck, I think LEDless Belcher is a much better deck.

3) A 12-post ramp

I tried this before, but coloration was a serious problem. I think there are much better win cons for a 12-post deck as well.



peace,
4eak