Show and Tell and selection

[Purgatory]

I found this discussion on another Magic site where it has yet to be resolved, even though an L2 Judge has joined in. I tried searching for something similar here, but came up with nothing, so apologies if it has been discussed before.


Situation: You are on Show and Tell and you know from a previous Enlightened Tutor that your opponent has an Oblivion Ring in hand. You want to play Show and Tell and elect to put in "nothing" while Jedi Mind Tricking your opponent into putting in the Oblivion Ring. Is there a legal way to do this? (Assuming that the Show and Tell hand is Show and Tell, Show and Tell, Emrakul and nothing else).

For example, could one put a card face down from my hand and when my opponent does the same thing, just state that I've chosen nothing and put the card back? I guess one could use pieces of paper and write down "nothing", but it's also a huge tell, especially if one has used the face-down card method before.

[humppa]

You can choose to put "nothing" - that is true
On BoM2013 the head judge tell us that we can write the card name on a paper instead of just putting the card on the table. I.e. you can write "nothing - not the card, but really nothing" - I recommend to play it in this way always and tell it to all your opponents before the game.

[cdr]

All players have to make a choice before revealing the choices. If you're choosing a card, you're choosing a card - you can't go with "nothing" at that point.

I would recommend writing on a face-down piece of paper as suggested. If you don't want it to be a tell, do your choice by writing every time.

[Malchar]

What would happen if you made a mistake and wrote down a card that isn't actually in your hand? This would be an example of something that couldn't happen if you were just choosing actual cards in your hand and putting them facedown on the table.

[Hopo]

What would happen if you made a mistake and wrote down a card that isn't actually in your hand? This would be an example of something that couldn't happen if you were just choosing actual cards in your hand and putting them facedown on the table.

Also, if your opponent chooses to put in an illegal card type, will it be considered as a choice of not revealing and putting into play anything? Or can this be corrected to fulfill the card type requirements?

[Quasim0ff]

What would happen if you made a mistake and wrote down a card that isn't actually in your hand? This would be an example of something that couldn't happen if you were just choosing actual cards in your hand and putting them facedown on the table.

Call a judge.

@Hopo
Call a judge.

[cdr]

Illegal choices are illegal choices. That's covered in the IPG same as any other gameplay error.

[jake556]

Sorry for necro but didn't want to make a separate thread for same subject. So I understand that if an illegal action happens the game reverts back to just before this action took place. So If opponent dropped in Planeswalker off of S&T does he simply pick up his PW and end up with nothing or does he get to pick it up and choose another card from his hand? Probably after seeing what you chose. Thanks in advance

[Tammit67]

Sorry for necro but didn't want to make a separate thread for same subject. So I understand that if an illegal action happens the game reverts back to just before this action took place. So If opponent dropped in Planeswalker off of S&T does he simply pick up his PW and end up with nothing or does he get to pick it up and choose another card from his hand? Probably after seeing what you chose. Thanks in advance

It is very unlikely a judge would allow a backup to where the erring player got to make a different choice because of the information exchanged


A good backup will result in a situation where the gained information makes no difference and the line of play remains the same (excepting the error, which has been fixed). This means limiting backups to situations with minimal decision trees.

This is a nice way of saying that the backup was minimally impactful. For example, the Active player casts Terror on a White Knight, and the White Knight is put in the graveyard. In this case a rewind is quick and clean and doesn't impact any decisions. But now lets add to the scenario. Lets say the Active Player cast the terror to remove a blocker and then attacked with his entire team. In this case more decisions have been made. A rewind may be acceptable, but it may alter the attack. Finally, the Active player cast terror on the knight, attacked. The opponent blocked. Combat tricks were used on both sides. In this case, too much information has been revealed. Backing up to the point of error would drastically impact the flow of the turn. The fewer decisions, the more likely a rewind is acceptable.

[mchainmail]

It is very unlikely a judge would allow a backup to where the erring player got to make a different choice because of the information exchanged

The accepted (L3) solution is that the Jace player puts nothing in, and the game moves on.

[Ahtii]

Situation: You are on Show and Tell and you know from a previous Enlightened Tutor that your opponent has an Oblivion Ring in hand. You want to play Show and Tell and elect to put in "nothing" while Jedi Mind Tricking your opponent into putting in the Oblivion Ring. Is there a legal way to do this? (Assuming that the Show and Tell hand is Show and Tell, Show and Tell, Emrakul and nothing else).


Would you get a Warning from judge If you chose your another show and tell in hand? And then go "oh , this is illegal target! Damn , cant put in anything!"

Offcourse that would Reveal information but in my opinion it would be fair.

[cdr]

Would you get a Warning from judge If you chose your another show and tell in hand? And then go "oh , this is illegal target! Damn , cant put in anything!"

Offcourse that would Reveal information but in my opinion it would be fair.

No, you cannot deliberately choose to do somethng illegal. That's Cheating, in fact. You'd be lucky to get off with a warning and not a DQ.

[Julian23]

Would you get a Warning from judge If you chose your another show and tell in hand? And then go "oh , this is illegal target! Damn , cant put in anything!"

Offcourse that would Reveal information but in my opinion it would be fair.

You are saying it would be FAIR to get a free advantage over your opponent. That is the definition of unfair.

[cdr]

You are saying it would be FAIR to get a free advantage over your opponent. That is the definition of unfair.

Yeah, the intent seems to be to "trick" the opponent by doing something illegal. But even if there were no potential advantage, you still can't deliberately perform illegal actions. Still Cheating.

If you plan on ever no-choicing while playing Show and Tell, just get in the habit of writing your choice instead of putting cards down.

[PirateKing]

I can understand if Show and Tell was written:
Each player may reveal a card from their hand. If an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card is revealed this way, put that card onto the battlefield.
Doesn't seem any more unfair than Oracle, other than more easily facilitating the discussed line of play.

But it's not written that way, so oh well.