[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Tormod]

I run 3 Goyf and 2 Snare. (2 Spell Pierce in the sb)

Snare is very strong, if it ever looks like its dead in a match up, you pitch it to FoW.

Right now I prefer Snare over Pierce, especially if I'm running 4x Daze MD

[TheKingslayer]

Not convinced ... Snare is a blank vs S&T.dec, Elves, Bloodmoon or Planeswalkers. Wouldn't feel too well with such holes in my defense especially because AD can handle most 2cc spells (sans Tutor or Wish)


Snare nabs more problem cards (at every point in the game too.) Try testing against any blade deck. Resolved batterskull game over 85% of the time. Tarmogoyf gets in the way of geese. Tendrils decks can't cast tutors, even if they would otherwise be able to pay for taxation effects. Rest in peace has to be countered most of the time. And you can guarantee that the game will go long enough that miracles can pay 2 for a pierce.

[Lemnear]

Snare nabs more problem cards (at every point in the game too.) Try testing against any blade deck. Resolved batterskull game over 85% of the time. Tarmogoyf gets in the way of geese. Tendrils decks can't cast tutors, even if they would otherwise be able to pay for taxation effects. Rest in peace has to be countered most of the time. And you can guarantee that the game will go long enough that miracles can pay 2 for a pierce.

You can Decay the Germ-Token, Bolt the SFM, Decay the Goofy ... but you can't battle Silence or Discard with Bolt, Decay or snare

The discussion about Miracles is misleading ... If Miracles ever get enough mana that Pierce doesn't matter anymore (aka before dying) you already lost anyways

RIP is 4 mana against Pierce ... good luck getting 4 mana in time against Wasteland+Stifle+Daze

[Sasan]

Snare handles all problem cards better than Pierce may it be that it hits a creature spell which is obviously Pierce-proof
or is a hard counter versus the problem making non-creature spells. Pierce makes matchups better or solves situations better that are good for our deck or can be handled otherwise. Regarding the lack of protection: Besides the 8 tempo counters and 4 Shroud creatures we overfill the opponent with one drop creatures that he needs to remove. So the opponent runs out of removal and then Goyf can seal the deal.

[Tormod]

Went 3-0 & ID my round 4 last night at my local Legacy.

Played this list:

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:14
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Round 1 vs Sneak Show
GAME 1) Opponent on the play mulls to 6, turn 1 Lotus petal + Ancient Tomb: Show and Tell. I counter with FoW, he counters back. It resolves. Hello Emrakrul, onto game 2

-4 bolts, -2 Abrupt -2 Mongoose
+2pierces, +2rebs, +1 edict and +2 fire covenant +1 Surgical (I actually boarded this in by mistake)

GAME 2)
I forget exactly what happens but I win with turn 1 DRS followed by Delver, lots of control cards, to a goyf.

GAME 3) Opponent turn 1 petal and island pass turn, I play DRS pass. Turn 2 opponent digs and passes failing to drop a land, pass turn. I draw the surgical surprised to see it. I play a Delver and another DRS. Turn 2 My opponent Pyroclasm sacrificing his petal. I'm starring at the FoW in my hand and my 3 critters debating whether or not to fight. My opponent missed a land drop so I decide to fight. I FoW, my opponent FoW back. Pyroclasm resolves and wipes my board. EOT I surgical his FoW. His hand is fow (which I take), brainstorm, show and tell and emrakrul. so i have to top hope that he doesn't find a sol land with his brainstorm because my hand is out of counters. I play 5/6 Goyf pass. My opponent at 15 life brainstorms, and doesn't find a land. I dispatch my opponent in 3 turns.
1-0

Round 2 vs Meathooks
Cavern of souls makes this match up tricky and those Meathooks get scary real fast.

GAME 1) I FOW my opponent's turn 1 vial... the game turns into a race between my 2 and my DRS, Delvers and my removal vs various flying and muscle slivers and a mutavault. I'm a turn ahead because of my opponents turn 1 Aethervial and should win next swing. Then my opponent casts a Syphon Sliver (all slivers gain life link) and swings for 10. I can't win this race onto game 2

-4 FOW, -4 Stifle, +2 REB, +2 Fire Covenant, +1 Engineered Plague, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Diabolic Edict

GAME 2) I get an early Delver but my attacks are quickly stopped by muscle sliver and gail rider. I kill the flyer to push damage through with delver. Slivers gets out of hand fast as I'm staring down various 3/3 and 4/4 slivers. I top deck a Goyf for defence. I play a 2nd goyf . I draw DRS and the rest of the match is me hiding behind my Goyfs and using DRS until my opponent is dead and holding kill spells.

GAME 3) I get an early loam lock, destroy my opponents mana boosting my goose and goyfs. The highlight play was not dredging wasteland when my opponent had a muta vault and 2 galeriders. He draws a land activates his vault and swings with the team. Fire Covenant for 4 makes him sad face.
2-0

Round 3 vs Bant w DRS
3 rounds, each match was a epic battle that I don't have the attention span to recall and go over in detail.
GAME 2 I lost when m opponent cast lingering souls while having a 9/9 KoTR, i was tilted by the souls and actually forget to flip my delver.
GAME 3 Ended with a risky Fire Covenant paying 7 life to kill a Goyf and Noble hierarch putting me at 2 life and my opponent at 10. I swing with 5/6 Goyf. My opponent flashes in Clique to chump. two turns later its over. After the game someone mentions that my opponent should have taken the 5 damage and done lethal to me on the swing back with clique.

3-0

I draw my last round to prize, do some trades, hang out and socialize.


notes:
Today was the first day I actually cast a Fire Covenant, I really didn't like that the life payment is a part of the casting cost. There was times when I wished it was another abrupt decay or even a Arc trail. There's moments where I just wanted more burn in the board because certain match ups seems like the right play is to hide behind goyf and ping with shaman and something like chain lightning in the board would just speed that up.

[sherko7]

Went 2-2 in an LGS earlier. Won against Monoblack Control, Bant Tempo(?), then rounds 3 and 4 were both DnT. Lost both in 3 games. All 6 games against DnT were pretty close except the one where I greedy kept a hand with Ponder, BS, Delver, Daze, Fetch, Bolt, Decay. Ponder + BS didn't give the lands I needed. :(

[Sasan]

Good job boys. All games are close so that bUrg proves to be good versus all decks ;-)

[Water_Wizard]

Went 3-0 & ID my round 4 last night at my local Legacy.

Round 1 vs Sneak Show

-4 bolts, -2 Abrupt -2 Mongoose
+2pierces, +2rebs, +1 edict and +2 fire covenant +1 Surgical (I actually boarded this in by mistake)


Congrats!

What is the logic of boarding in Fire Covenant vs. S&S?

Would you post your sideboard?

Thank you!

[Sasan]

Obviously he wants to cast it in response of Griselbrand's draw ability when the opponent is low on life and kill Grisel. But I do not know it if is worth it. Emrakul cannot be targeted and the game is almost always over if Griselbrand can draw 7-14 cards.

[Water_Wizard]

Obviously he wants to cast it in response of Griselbrand's draw ability when the opponent is low on life and kill Grisel. But I do not know it if is worth it. Emrakul cannot be targeted and the game is almost always over if Griselbrand can draw 7-14 cards.

That was what I figured, but is seems so narrow that I don't think that it's worth it.

[Sasan]

Yup, I agree but perhaps Tormod can explain his choice. Sometimes someone sees something in the matrix that we do not see ;-)

[TheKingslayer]

You can Decay the Germ-Token, Bolt the SFM, Decay the Goofy ... but you can't battle Silence or Discard with Bolt, Decay or snare

The discussion about Miracles is misleading ... If Miracles ever get enough mana that Pierce doesn't matter anymore (aka before dying) you already lost anyways

RIP is 4 mana against Pierce ... good luck getting 4 mana in time against Wasteland+Stifle+Daze

Being overly reliant on bolt for Stoneforge is dangerous. I test against Esperblade more than any other deck (my good friend runs it.) And if they have force of will back up, you want to eat it up with snare, even if you do have a bolt in hand. It's dangerous to allow them to sit on a Batterskull sometimes anyway. Most of the time, discard is allowed to resolve, because it is inefficient to counter it.

Miracles runs sooo many basics. And if they land a top, you can bet that they will wipe the field with a Terminus or two. It's better to be able to stop a rest in peace at all points in the game. Not having a rest in peace increases your clock greatly with threshed geese and active deathrites.

[Tormod]

I drew Fire Covenant once against S&S and I ended up shuffling it away with brainstorm fetch. The thinking was that IF griselbrand hit the table it would give me a way to fight it. But overall that line of play is pretty bad, so I don't recommend it.

I changed the sb afterward while the ideas where fresh in my head, I'm not exactly sure what it was for the tourney but it wouldn't be more than 3 or 4 cards off from what I have for sb right now.

I'll list the cards I think of permanent fixtures of the deck first.

2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

These 8 cards are permanent fixes in my mind

The remaining 7 I have for now as:

1 Fire Covenant
1 Diaboic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor

During the event, I had a Engineered Plague over Dread of Night which I might switch back to.
I had a pithing needle as well, that I took out. But I like it post board for games I take out FOW for answers against LoTV, vials, etc.
I just added the Jace, and I look at this as a surprise card for games that go long. It could also be a sylvan library, but I want to give Jace a go.

The biggest thing I advocate is 3 Goyf over 2. Our win con is to reduce our opponent's life to zero and Goyf does more to contribute to that plan over spellsnare and we never want to be out goyf'd.

I have been thinking more and more about TNN, and I think the best way to play against TNN is ignore it and damage race. hide behind Goyf, use shaman, delver and burn to deal damage.

A variation of sb I am considering is:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain Lightning
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Plague

This board allows a more aggressive damage plan useful against midrange decks. 7 burn spells and 3 DRS and 4 Delvers should give enough reach to close out a game quickly before having to worry about things like TNN.

[Sasan]

Quick notes on your board: Flusterstorm is better than Pierce versus combo, so I recommend changing Pierces for Fluster.

Your board looks like you think that True-Name Nemesis will be meta deforming. We must see. If the card has that impact your edicts and charms are well placed.

Your alternate board takes another approach: You try to transform bUrg in games 2 and 3 versus midrange decks in a kind of UR Delver like build. It is interesting and should work. My only concern is that you lose much sideboard space for the other matchups :-).

[Sasan]

being overly reliant on bolt for stoneforge is dangerous. I test against esperblade more than any other deck (my good friend runs it.) and if they have force of will back up, you want to eat it up with snare, even if you do have a bolt in hand. It's dangerous to allow them to sit on a batterskull sometimes anyway. Most of the time, discard is allowed to resolve, because it is inefficient to counter it.

Miracles runs sooo many basics. And if they land a top, you can bet that they will wipe the field with a terminus or two. It's better to be able to stop a rest in peace at all points in the game. Not having a rest in peace increases your clock greatly with threshed geese and active deathrites.

this :-)


I can see going down one Snare for a Pierce or another Goyf but that is the maximum. I still prefer 3 Snares.

[Tormod]

Quick notes on your board: Flusterstorm is better than Pierce versus combo, so I recommend changing Pierces for Fluster.

Your board looks like you think that True-Name Nemesis will be meta deforming. We must see. If the card has that impact your edicts and charms are well placed.

Your alternate board takes another approach: You try to transform bUrg in games 2 and 3 versus midrange decks in a kind of UR Delver like build. It is interesting and should work. My only concern is that you lose much sideboard space for the other matchups :-).

I agree Flusterstorm is good vs combo. I also view that in storm match ups I feel the 4 Stifle md is plenty to stop the storm trigger. If I were playing a non-stifle deck, something more midrange than I would agree for Flusterstorm to be in the 75. I feel very competent with tempo which already has a great combo match up that I view Flusterstorm as "training wheels" vs combo, and you don't really need them. Given the 14 blue control cards we have md + 2 spell pierce and 2 REB sb. I rather have the slots open for something else.

Spell pierce is superior to flusterstorm for all other match ups with so many relevant targets.

Thus, Having edicts is an excellent tool for a variety of match ups. In the event that something lands that you can't hit directly, its nice to know you can find an answer.

I like to have silver bullets in the sideboard that can have a uses in a variety of match ups. Eg. Engineered plague vs elves, goblins, lingering souls, TNN... Against TNN, REB is huge as well.

I anticipate seeing a lot of TNN as folks try to shoe horn him into anything blue. So better to be prepared than not. I don't consider TNN a huge threat. The most it can do its swing and block our goyfs and mongoose. We can still push damage with DRS and Delver. If they start attacking with TNN, then our Goyfs and Gooses will swing back. We have access to DRS to gain life back to buy time to dig for answer if it comes to a damage race.

[vercadium]

Played against Carsten Linden piloting this at GP Antwerp's Legacy Championship - posted my experiences in the TES thread, but just thought I'd add that this deck is the real deal. Deathrite Shaman adds so many options and reach. While it wasn't the first time I'd seen the deck, it was my first time playing against it. Very impressed.

[Sasan]

And Carsten is the best bUrg player in the world. Good
that you played against each other and thanks
for the compliments for bUrg. :-)

[sherko7]

I've replaced the 3rd Snare for an Izzet Charm. Haven't tested much except against Elves. It is a great utility to have.:smile:

[Sasan]

A one-off Izzet Charm is always better than a Pierce so good choice although I would stick with 3 Snares :-)

[Tormod]

I've replaced the 3rd Snare for an Izzet Charm. Haven't tested much except against Elves. It is a great utility to have.:smile:

Interesting.

I like that the looting is a quick fix to enable threshold.
The removal is inefficient but relevant, and the 2 mana "pierce" is ok.

As I mentioned earlier, I run the 3rd Goyf over the 3rd Snare. As an interesting test, since its easy to distinguish the Izzet Charm from the rest of your deck, let me know how when it comes up if you would rather be drawing a Goyf instead or possibly snare.

Interested in hearing your feedback.

[sherko7]

Interesting.

I like that the looting is a quick fix to enable threshold.
The removal is inefficient but relevant, and the 2 mana "pierce" is ok.

As I mentioned earlier, I run the 3rd Goyf over the 3rd Snare. As an interesting test, since its easy to distinguish the Izzet Charm from the rest of your deck, let me know how when it comes up if you would rather be drawing a Goyf instead or possibly snare.

Interested in hearing your feedback.

Well I currently like the utility it provides. It is not "tempo-ish" removing a DRS with it, but it catches a lot of spells that we would otherwise FoW (LotV, Jace, Elspeth, etc...) and the looting effect is really nice.

I've only tested against Elves so I cannot really say I'd like a Snare whenever I drew it. But I never wanted to draw a Goyf early/mid game, so I really think 2 is a good number.

[Sasan]

The bug-deck with Nemesis won yesterday's French Legacy
Championship and it seems that it will be dominant on BOM. It stands 6-0 now.

That is the deck:
http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy-2/

I watched the stream now and the RUG Delver player had not a single chance. Let us see how it will go from now if the meta will be full of TNN if that guy wins BOM.

[Tormod]

The bug-deck with Nemesis won yesterday's French Legacy
Championship and it seems that it will be dominant on BOM. It stands 6-0 now.

That is the deck:
http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy-2/

I watched the stream now and the RUG Delver player had not a single chance. Let us see how it will go from now if the meta will be full of TNN if that guy wins BOM.

RUG tends to fair poorly against Abrupt Decay decks.

I've been thinking about ways to fight against TNN, and I think the way I want to fight TNN is by damage racing.

With Shaman and Delver. The goyfs and mongoose can be threat walls. I'm also considering a 1 pc Rancor, so that Goyf can trample over TNN. It seems like a really good blow out when opponent plays a TNN expecting to be able to absorb the attack, then you give you goyf +2/+0 and swing in for 6 or 7 and trample the damage over.

[Megadeus]

Could run Golgari Charm here to kill off TNN

[Tormod]

Could run Golgari Charm here to kill off TNN

yeah i thought of that, but that play loses tempo, then your opponent could just drop another TNN and you'd be screwed.

Rancor contributes to our win con, gains tempo, and makes TNN look bad. As a another bonus, it makes your goyf better than your opponents goyf.

[sherko7]

yeah i thought of that, but that play loses tempo, then your opponent could just drop another TNN and you'd be screwed.

Rancor contributes to our win con, gains tempo, and makes TNN look bad. As a another bonus, it makes your goyf better than your opponents goyf.

OK so at first I laughed at this. After pondering over it for a while though, Rancor sounds kinda cool. :cool:

[Pdingo]

Thanks sasan! Was playing poorly on the bazaar with ant^^
Shit happens.. well anyway to burg. I still see a 1-2 off TNN in it;)

[Star|Scream]

yeah i thought of that, but that play loses tempo, then your opponent could just drop another TNN and you'd be screwed.

Rancor contributes to our win con, gains tempo, and makes TNN look bad. As a another bonus, it makes your goyf better than your opponents goyf.

How does paying 2 mana to remove their 3 drop lose tempo? Also what if they have 2 nemesis on the board or a nemesis and an unflipped delver? Also what's wrong with having extra weapons against elves or TES?

[Tormod]

How does paying 2 mana to remove their 3 drop lose tempo? Also what if they have 2 nemesis on the board or a nemesis and an unflipped delver? Also what's wrong with having extra weapons against elves or TES?

You paid 2 Mana to remove their 3 mana 3/1 so you can swing with your 5/6 goyf to do 4 damage (-1/-1)
you paid 1 mana to play rancor on your 5/6 Goyf and swing for 7, Nemesis blocks and you do 6, you get repeated value on the +2/+0

Hence making a greater contribution to the damage race plan


(Maybe its not as relevant to the 2 Goyf build.)

[Sasan]

Bom 2013 Paris, the Eternal Weekend and the most recent SCG Open tournament are now over and we can relax: True-Name Nemesis did not break the format. Only 2 decks in the top 16s of all three events featured Nemesis and none of them were dominant.

For a moment, when some TNN decks wre featured and hyped during BOM, I felt that our testings were wrong and that TNN is a beast. But we can now say for sure that we - the bUrg players - did perhaps more testings than the other deck builders that tried to include TNN in every blue deck build.

The event coverage of the Eternal weekend sums it up really good:

"...Potentially a powerhouse, True-Name Nemesis is going to be one of the biggest question marks this tournament. It is extraordinarily resilient, susceptible to only global removal spells and sacrifice effects. From the moment it hits play, it is a virtual Lightning Bolt a turn, which is capable of quickly ending games. That said, it's also a creature, and one that costs three, to boot. In Legacy, when people tap three mana for a creature, it's usually Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Paying three mana for something that doesn't effectively end the game on the spot is a risky proposition, yet True-Name Nemesis still has people buzzing.

In the proper shell, the card can be absolutely devastating. So far this weekend, I have seen it in Stoneblade, Shardless BUG, and, of course, Merfolk. It serves as a wonderful clock for control decks, ending the game in short order once the game has been locked up...


Lebedowicz also tested out the newest addition to Legacy: True-Name Nemesis. It has been quite a divisive topic thus far this weekend, as it seems just a touch too slow in many matchups to really shine. It has been taking the place of two-drops for much of the weekend, which has led to more than one lost match. As Hall-of-Famer Randy Buehler said during his commentary, "If you aren't impacting the board on turn two, it's really hard to win in Legacy."..."

The way I see the things regarding of TNN and the developmnt of the meta:

- Normal Esper Blade list pack TNN in instead of Lingering Souls. It has nearly the same speed as the tokens. But for us the matchup does not change at all. Whether they equip a Lingering Souls token or a TNN, it comes nearly down to the same damage - as the other tokens attack, too - and we cannot block neither of those creatures. A timed Golgari Charm stops the Tokens AND TNN. That is why we do not need to adopt our board that much to fight TNN.

- UR Delver will play TNN if they want to play like a tempo deck with TNN as a substutite for Mongoose and/or Goyf. It has a higher curve and therefore will not be the best tempo deck in the format.

- Patriot can replace their Geists with TNN. But as TNN is slower not many lists have included the new Merfolk. The well ranked Patriot lists of BOM 2013 Paris and SCG Open LA did not have a TNN in their 60s. Playing 3-drops against our good mana denial deck is always a problem. No worries here.

- Some Shardless BUG lists have somehow adapted their lists to include TNN. But other important creatures are cut in that process. I mean no Shardless Agent in Shardless BUG and then call it Shardlessless BUG, really? The deck is a bit slower now. Good for us.

- Team America replaced its Tombstalkers with TNN. The list that was hyped during BOM felt clunky with 16 creatures. I have a strong feeling that we are a better tempo deck thaen "tap-out-Delver" aka Team America.

- Merfolk lists did not have good placings during the events. That is due to the fact that Merfolk was always a niche pet deck. We do not need to worry here as there are too few Merfolk decks out there.


However the recent comeback of Elves, the staying power of DnT decks, some good placements of Maverick decks and the fact that many people will just test TNN in the coming weeks has led the bUrg team to change the list and adopt to that situation. In our testings the best boarding plan to fight TNN is to bring in 2 REBS and 1 Golgari Charm (if you play Tormod's 3-Goyf list Rancor might be an option, too). Golgari Charm is a powerhouse versus the Elves, DnT and Maverick and can grab a win or two versus Sneak Attack decks, the most popular combo deck of the US format. Golgari Charm prevents Storm - the perhaps most popular combo deck in Europe - from the EtW-kill. So Golgari Charm is a must now in our sideboards. It is also a way to fight Rest in Peace - one main deck card in many Miracles build. The Miracles archetype will become more popular again after the printing of TNN.

Carsten Linden, the inventor of bUrg, did not attend BOM 2013 Paris due to private reasons but he was sure that bUrg would have had a good chance versus the top decks of the BOM. In fact he regretted not having been able to attend the event and show how good bUrg performs in a meta like this.

He wanted to share with you his latest list, that he developed to take down the event. He played with nearly the same list at the Legacy Championship Antwerp and crushed all the opponents. We boh tuned the list a bit after the results of BOM 2013 Paris, the Eternal weekend and SCG Open LA came in.

We can now proudly present you with our most recent list for the new meta:




Deck: Carsten's and Sasan's bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Fire Covenant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Submerge



Let me just explain one new seceret tech: Ashiok!

Ashiok is a highly underplayed Planeswalker. Its main application is to break the tempo mirror. Ruining the opponent's brainstorms and grabbing Goyfs, Geists, Mongeese, Delver and perhaps a Nemesis is strong. Carsten won during GP Antwerp all 4 matches versus tempo decks due to Ashiok and/or Nihil Spellbomb. Versus midrange or control decks with strong creatues Ashiok is the real deal, too. With 5 loyality counters when it hits, it is hard to remove. Just try the card before dismissing it. An all-star in today's meta. Look versus how many decks we board it in:


Sideboard Guide

Here is the detailed plan. It separates Nemesis and Non-Nemesis builds.

//BUG Delver:
//OTP: -1 Daze-2 Force-4 Stifle+3 Submerge+1 Fluster+ 1 Ashiok+ 2 ReB
//OTD: -4 Daze- 1 Force-4 Stifle+3 Submerge+3 Fluster+2 ReB + 1 Ashiok

//BUG Delver with Nemesis:
//OTP: -1 Daze-2 Force-4 Stifle+3 Submerge+ 1 Ashiok+ 2 ReB+ 1 Golgari Charm
//OTD: -4 Daze- 1 Force-4 Stifle+3 Submerge+2 Fluster+2 ReB + 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm

//Shardless BUG:
//OtP: - 4 Force -1 Stifle -2 Daze+ 2 Submerge+ 2 Fire+2 ReB+ 1 Ashiok
//OtD: - 4 Daze -1 Stifle -2 Force+ 2 Submerge+ 2 Fire+2 ReB + 1 Ashiok

//Shardless BUG with Nemesis:
//OtP: - 4 Force -2 Stifle -2 Daze+ 2 Submerge+ 2 Fire+2 ReB+ 1 Ashiok+1 Nemesis
//OtD: - 4 Daze -2 Stifle -2 Force+ 2 Submerge+ 2 Fire+2 ReB + 1 Ashiok+1 Nemesis

//Jund/Rock/Aggro Loam:
OtP: - 4 Force - 2 Stifle -1 Daze+ 3 Submerge + 2 Fire+1 Loam + 1 Ashiok
OtD: - 4 Daze - 3 Stifle -1 Force+ 3 Submerge + 2 Fire+1 Loam + 1 Ashiok

//Omni Tell/Monu U Omni Show Infinite Dreams:
//-4 Mongoose-1 Bolt+2 REB + 3 Fluster

//Sneak Show:
//-1 Mongoose-1 Goyf-3 Snare-1 Bolt+2 REB + 3 Fluster+ 1 Golgari Charm

//Hive Mind:
//-2 Mongoose -1 Goyf-2 Bolt +2 REB +3 Fluster

//Miracles:
//+2 ReB + 3 Fluster+ 1 Golgari Charm- 4 Daze- 2 Bolt

//RUG Delver:
// -4 Daze- 2 Force - 2 Snare +3 Submerge+ 2 REB+1 Loam + 1 Nihil+1 Ashiok

//Blade without Nemesis:
//-2 Daze-1 Force+ 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Golgari Charm + 1 Ashiok

//Blade with Nemesis:
//OtP: -2 Daze-1 Force+ 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Golgari Charm + 1 Ashiok
//OtD: - 4 Daze - 1 Force + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Golgari Charm + 1 Ashiok + 2 REB

//Death Blade:
//OtP: -2 Force - 2 Daze -1 Stifle + 1 Ancient Grudge+ 1 Loam + 2 Fire Covenant + 1 Ashiok
//OtD: -4 Daze -1 Force + 1 Ancient Grudge+ 1 Loam + 2 Fire Covenant + 1 Ashiok

//Maverick:
//-4 Stifle-1 Force -2 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fire+ 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm

//Punishing Maverick:
//OtP: - 4 Force - 2 Stifle -2 Daze+ 3 Submerge + 2 Fire+1 Loam + 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm
//OtD: - 4 Daze - 4 Stifle+ 3 Submerge + 2 Fire+1 Loam + 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm

//Goblins:
//OtP: +1 Ancient Grudge+2 Fire + 1 Golgari Charm - 3 Snare -1 Force
//OtD: +1 Ancient Grudge+2 Fire + 1 Golgari Charm- 3 Snare -1 Daze

//TES/ANT:
//+3 Fluster+2 Fire+1 Nihil+ 1 Golgari Charm- 2 Decay- 2 Mongoose - 2 Goyf -1 Bolt

//Doomsday :
//+3 Fluster+2 ReB- 2 Decay- 1 Mongoose - 1 Goyf -1 Bolt

//Belcher:
//+2 Fire+ 1 Golgari Charm+ 3 Fluster- 4 Wastelands-2 Goyf

//Enchantress:
// +1 Golgari Charm -1 Bolt (Note: Golgari MUST target Argothian Enchantress)

//Dredge:
//+1 Nihil+2 Fire- 3 Snare

//Merfolk:
//OtP: +2 Fire+ 2 ReB+1 Ancient Grudge-4 Stifle-1 Force
//OtD: +2 Fire+ 2 ReB+1 Ancient Grudge-4 Stifle-1 Daze

//Affinity:
//+ 2 ReB + 2 Fire+1 Ancient Grudge-4 Stifle-1 Daze

//Elves:
//-2 Mongoose- 4 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fire + 1 Golgari Charm

//UR Burn:
//-4 Stifle+ 2 ReB+2 Fluster

//UR Burn with Pyromancer and/or Nemesis:
//-4 Stifle -1 Daze+ 2 ReB+2 Fluster + 1 Golgari Charm

//Burn:
//-3 Wasteland+ 3 Fluster

//Death&Taxes:
//OtP: -1 Stifle-2 Daze -2 Force + 2 Fire + 1 Grudge + 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm
//OtD: -4 Daze -1 Stifle+2 Fire+1 Grudge+ 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm

//NicFit:
// + 1 Golgari Charm+ 2 Fire Covenant+1 Nihil+ 1 Ashiok+ 3 Submerge-3 Snare - 4 Daze -1 Force

//Zombardement:
//+1 Nihil+2 Fire+1 Golgari Charm-4 Mongoose

//Rip Combo:
//+ 2 REB + 3 Fluster+1 Golgari Charm- 4 Bolt- 1 Mongoose - 1 Taiga

//UB Tezzeret:
//-4 Daze+2 REB+1 Ancient Grudge+1 Fire Covenant

//Deadguy Ale:
//OtP: -2 Force -2 Daze - 1 Stifle + 2 Fire+1 Grudge+ 1 Golgari Charm + 1 Ashiok
//OtD: -1 Force -3 Daze - 1 Stifle + 2 Fire+1 Grudge+ 1 Golgari Charm + 1 Ashiok

//Reanimator:
//+ 3 Fluster+ 2 ReB+1 Nihil-2 Decay-2 Goyf -2 Mongoose

//Spiral Tide:
//-4 Wasteland - 1 Mongoose+3 Flusterstorm+2 REB

//Mirror:
//-4 Daze - 3 Snare -2 Force + 3 Submerge + 1 Loam + 2 ReB + 1 Fluster+1 Nihil + 1 Ashiok

//Painter's Servant:
//-4 Wasteland - 2 Mongoose + 3 Flusterstorm + 2 ReB + 1 Grudge

//Grixis Delver:
//- 4 Daze -1 Force + 1 Golgari Charm+ 2 ReB + 1 Loam + 1 Ashiok

//Hypergenesis:
//-3 Snare - 1 Mongoose -1 Goyf + 2 ReB + 3 Fluster

//MUD:
//-4 Stifle + 1 Ashiok + 1 Grudge + 1 Loam + 1 Fire Covenant

//Pox:
//-4 Force -1 Bolt -1 Daze + 3 Fluster+ 1 Loam + 1 Grudge + 1 Compost

//Tin Fins:
//-2 Decay-2 Goyf -1 Mongoose-1 Bolt+ 3 Fluster+ 2 ReB+1 Nihil

//Stax:
//-2 Bolt - 1 Daze + 1 Grudge + 1 Loam + 1 Golgari Charm

//All Spells:
//-1 Wasteland + 1 Nihil

//Patriot:
//-4 Daze+ 1 Loam + 2 ReB + 1 Ashiok

//Patriot with Stoneforge:
//-4 Daze -1 Force+ 1 Loam + 1 Grudge + 2 ReB + 1 Ashiok

//Patriot with Nemesis and Stoneforge:
//-4 Daze -1 Force+ 1 Loam+ 2 ReB + 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm

//Turbo Eldrazi
//- 3 Snare - 1 Goyf - 1 Mongoose + 2 ReB + 3 Fluster

//Bant:
//-4 Stifle-1 Force -2 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fire+ 1 ReB+ 1 Ashiok

//Bant with Nemesis:
//OtP:-4 Stifle-4 Force - 2 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fire+ 2 ReB+ 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm
//OtD:-4 Stifle-2 Force - 4 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fire+ 2 ReB+ 1 Ashiok + 1 Golgari Charm

//No Bant:
//-4 Stifle-3 Daze + 3 Submerge+3 Fluster+ 1 Ashiok

//Zoo:
//- 4 Stifle-1 Daze + 3 Submerge + 1 Nihil + 1 Fire Covenant

//Sliver:
// -4 Stifle -1 Daze + 2 Fire Covenant + 2 ReB + 1 Grudge

Aluren:
// + 2 ReB + 1 Golgari Charm-1 Mongoose - 2 Bolt


The primer has been updated. The midrange beater list was deleted as the new list crushes all metas - no need for special lists for special metas.

Hope you enjoyed the read :-).

[Ralf]

Bom 2013 Paris, the Eternal Weekend and the most recent SCG Open tournament are now over and we can relax: True-Name Nemesis did not break the format. Only 2 decks in the top 16s of all three events featured Nemesis and none of them were dominant.

- Team America replaced its Tombstalkers with TNN. The list that was hyped during BOM felt clunky with 16 creatures. I have a strong feeling that we are a better tempo deck as "tap-out-Delver" aka Team America.



You forgot the French Legacy Cup were TA with TNN is the winner...

[Sasan]

You forgot the French Legacy Cup were TA with TNN is the winner...

Fair enough. You are right. But my statements remain true as the TNN trend was not visible in the 3 other main tournaments.

[Lemnear]

You know what they sold the Commander set for 70€ each and charged 50€ for TNN alone?

[Sasan]

That is why we need some more data and material in the coming weeks. Meta gaming is always based on predictions, too. And the bUrg team makes statements based on arguments and the most recent data. Nothing wrong with that.The proposed list has a staying power even if TNN will not be played much. Golgari Charm and Ashiok are good right *now* and the list is prepared for the predicted slight meta game shift ;-)

[Sasan]

For the record, my buddy Moritz made place 83 on BOM with bUrg - but he was probably the only one to play that deck. So for that matter, it is a great great finish. He will write a tournament report in 3 days :)

[Ralf]

For the record, my buddy Moritz made place 83 on BOM with bUrg - but he was probably the only one to play that deck. So for that matter, it is a great great finish. He will write a tournament report in 3 days :)

To be precise your buddy's place is 82.
Cuz I'm n° 83 !!!

[Sasan]

Ah great for you ;-) What did you play? Congrats. Awesome finish regarding the number of players ;-)

[Ralf]

Ah great for you ;-) What did you play? Congrats. Awesome finish regarding the number of players ;-)

I played NicFit ��

[fdiv_bug]

I just wanted to drop a quick note to Sasan and all the others who have worked to make such an awesome thread for this deck, to say thanks! The content here alone has convinced me to learn to play this deck, and I'm really looking forward to it. I'd watched mog's performance with it in Milwaukee and was intrigued by it then, but wary about such a versatile deck without some good people to discuss it with; now that I've found one of the best primer threads I've ever seen, for any deck, I'm hoping I can have similar success with practice and patience. :smile:

[SirTylerGalt]

I just wanted to drop a quick note to Sasan and all the others who have worked to make such an awesome thread for this deck, to say thanks! The content here alone has convinced me to learn to play this deck, and I'm really looking forward to it. I'd watched mog's performance with it in Milwaukee and was intrigued by it then, but wary about such a versatile deck without some good people to discuss it with; now that I've found one of the best primer threads I've ever seen, for any deck, I'm hoping I can have similar success with practice and patience. :smile:

I agree. Awesome primer. I also think the sideboard guide is awesome. I'm going to test the deck in the next few weeks :)

[Sisyphos]

Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Fire Covenant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Submerge



//MUD:
//-4 Stifle + 1 Ashiok + 1 Grudge + 1 Loam + 1 Ashiok



So your boarding plan against MUD revolves around hiding a 16th sideboard card in your bag and hope nobody notices? :wink:

[Sasan]

So your boarding plan against MUD revolves around hiding a 16th sideboard card in your bag and hope nobody notices? :wink:

Sorry bad typo :) will be fixed :)

[Sasan]

@fdiv_bug, SirTylerGalt: Thanks for the compliments. I feel flattered. The atmosphere and discussions in the thread are super. That is the contribution of us all :-)

[kingsey]

Is there any good links where I can watch this deck being played? I'm a long time TA guy, but I find this deck very interesting.

[Sasan]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4IwASk_gpJ0

:-) Great Play by mog.

[sherko7]

Going to a big event this weekend. 1st place gets 1 U. Sea, 1 Tundra, 1 Volcanic Island and 1 Tropical Island. :laugh:

Anyway, I have 2 byes for the event and its expected to go 7 rounds. Below is what our local metagame looks like:

http://mtgmanila.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/cerberus-legacy-open-6-metagame-report-and-decklists/

- that one was early October

Any tips on what to play in the board? My current configuration is this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

As you can see, I've decided to cut down on Snares and added Forked Bolt. I'm expecting a rather fair meta even if 2 weeks ago, the 40-man tourney I attended had 5 combo players in the top 8 (3 Elves, 1 Dredge, 1 TES). I do not have the metagame breakdown for that. Anyway, I tried Izzet Charm on the Forked Bolt slot but I really didn't like it. It was utility, but a 2 mana Shock/Spell Pierce/Looting is BAD. Anyway, suggestions?

[Sasan]

Try Ashiok in the Clique slot. Your combo MU is already great. Ashiok pays off versus midrange decks. It is a huuuuge secret tech.

Otherwise, playing a one off Forked Bolt instead of the third Snare is ok in a fair meta. But why don't you play Dismember instead? It answers Goyfs and Equipment (Skull Token) as well and makes a bit up for the loss of one Snare. With Shamans Dismember's casting costs are free.

Otherwise perhaps someone can finally comment on the latest bUrg list in the primer. It was developed for ALL metas ;-) Sherko, it is also a good idea to this new blueprint list to your tournament. And to all bUrg players: Try Ashiok. NOW :D

[fdiv_bug]

Otherwise perhaps someone can finally comment on the latest bUrg list in the primer. It was developed for ALL metas ;-) Sherko, it is also a good idea to this new blueprint list to your tournament. And to all bUrg players: Try Ashiok. NOW :D

I don't have any comments yet, or else I would. :smile:

It's the list I'm starting with, and I ordered most of the missing pieces yesterday. I'm still short one Volcanic Island, but if I can't borrow one from a friend I might run with an 8th fetch until I can pick up the dual. Do people think this would work all right, or should I go up one Tropical Island or Underground Sea (I have playsets of both, but only one of the other duals in the deck) in place of the second Volcanic in the meantime?

[lavafrogg]

Sasan!

I was going to pm you last night but I fell asleep.... I didn't realize this was your pet deck:p

I play midrange and ashiok is a beating if he goes uncontested for a few turns... He can be decayed though so you need to be careful. As for our discussion yesterday I will just pick up here, as it seems appropriate.

This deck reminds me of the 4 color threshold deck that won a GP back when the world was thresh-goblins-solidarity the guy just got greedy, said fuck it, and won a tourney. The list never took off because it's mana base was terrible.

I do not understand why you would play this over RUG or BUG in that the only thing you gain over RUG which gets more burn or BUG which gets better access to dismember/discard.

What do you gain?

You have a shakier manabase against tempo/mana disruption style decks.

You still have a terrible mid range match up.

Do you pick up options against control? Don't tempo decks beat control anyway?

I am just confused all over.

[Sasan]

I don't have any comments yet, or else I would. :smile:

It's the list I'm starting with, and I ordered most of the missing pieces yesterday. I'm still short one Volcanic Island, but if I can't borrow one from a friend I might run with an 8th fetch until I can pick up the dual. Do people think this would work all right, or should I go up one Tropical Island or Underground Sea (I have playsets of both, but only one of the other duals in the deck) in place of the second Volcanic in the meantime?

Try another Usea or Tropical as having more duals is good in a Wasteland format with DNT mania ;)

[Sasan]

Sasan!

I was going to pm you last night but I fell asleep.... I didn't realize this was your pet deck:p

I play midrange and ashiok is a beating if he goes uncontested for a few turns... He can be decayed though so you need to be careful. As for our discussion yesterday I will just pick up here, as it seems appropriate.

This deck reminds me of the 4 color threshold deck that won a GP back when the world was thresh-goblins-solidarity the guy just got greedy, said fuck it, and won a tourney. The list never took off because it's mana base was terrible.

I do not understand why you would play this over RUG or BUG in that the only thing you gain over RUG which gets more burn or BUG which gets better access to dismember/discard.

What do you gain?

You have a shakier manabase against tempo/mana disruption style decks.

You still have a terrible mid range match up.

Do you pick up options against control? Don't tempo decks beat control anyway?

I am just confused all over.


Haha great that we can finish the discussion from the RUG thread ;) Yes it is my pet deck.

I will let the other bUrg players state what they think about your arguments. Let the discussion begin. I will post my experience later. It is boring if I always start a discussion :-)

[personalbackfire]

Haha great that we can finish the discussion from the RUG thread ;) Yes it is my pet deck.

I will let the other bUrg players state what they think about your arguments. Let the discussion begin. I will post my experience later. It is boring if I always start a discussion :-)

You would play RUGB over Rug or BUG for access to all 4 colors, to say it simple.

It is my experience that tempo decks really want Bolt to have reach. Granted, I haven't played a ton of games with BUG Delver, but I've always liked having Bolt in the deck as a way to close out games.

The reason you would want BURG over RUG is because of Deathrite Shaman and Decay.

Deathrite Shaman really is just that good. It is good against Rug, it's good against opposing Shamans, it is good against graveyard strategies. He just does a lot of work. In addition, you are playing less 2 drops, which makes holding up one mana situational counters/stifle more easy.

Decay also deals with some problem cards that RUG struggles with, like Counterbalance. In addition, it kills opposing creatures, it is versatile. In a pinch you might be able to float mana or use your Shamans to kill a Bloon Moon.

Decay is a better "flex" slot than RUG has access too.

So the question becomes is having Decay and DRS worth the shaky manabase?

I'm still not sure. The question becomes harder if you like playing Gitaxian probe, because there really isn't room to play Probe and everything else in this deck.

[Sasan]

I want to drop in an additional question: Is probe that good in RUG? Spell Snare does a hell lot of work in bUrg and not playing Probe makes you a better player as you must predict every key interaction ;-)

[personalbackfire]

I want to drop in an additional question: Is probe that good in RUG? Spell Snare does a hell lot of work in bUrg and not playing Probe makes you a better player as you must predict every key interaction ;-)

I think so for reasons already stated. It is impossible to know what to play around turn 1 or 2 without Probe.

[TheKingslayer]

Sasan!

I was going to pm you last night but I fell asleep.... I didn't realize this was your pet deck:p

I play midrange and ashiok is a beating if he goes uncontested for a few turns... He can be decayed though so you need to be careful. As for our discussion yesterday I will just pick up here, as it seems appropriate.

This deck reminds me of the 4 color threshold deck that won a GP back when the world was thresh-goblins-solidarity the guy just got greedy, said fuck it, and won a tourney. The list never took off because it's mana base was terrible.

I do not understand why you would play this over RUG or BUG in that the only thing you gain over RUG which gets more burn or BUG which gets better access to dismember/discard.

What do you gain?

You have a shakier manabase against tempo/mana disruption style decks.

You still have a terrible mid range match up.

Do you pick up options against control? Don't tempo decks beat control anyway?

I am just confused all over.

I agree with Personalbackfire. I would like to add...

Honestly, the mana base isn't really that "shaky." It's a blue deck at its core, and every spell costs one (except for abrupt decay.) Every once in a while I find myself being tilted off of mana, but very rarely, and for the most part, being a tempo deck, the opponent is likely putting themselves behind with all of our stifles and wastelands and shamans. As well, Deathrite really is the adhesive that makes the deck possible. He keeps ANT off of threshold, negates past in flames, keeps RUG off of threshold. He's a swiss army knife that allows for more explosive mana in the early game to use for more disruption (our combo matchup is more definitively better than other tempo decks), deploying threats, and cantripping. Near the end of the game, he circumvents copious amounts of blockers to end the game quickly. As well, he allows a lot of tempo can be had even while on the draw when playing a shaman and following it up with a wasteland and stifle, while still actively deploying threats and leaving counter mana up. Deathrite makes it much more difficult for other tempo decks to just run away with the game off of a wasteland.

Bolt allows for tighter play and it can be used to close out games, rather than running 4 abrupt decays (which is clunky and would force us to run more lands instead of spells.) like BUG. Having access to both allows for tighter play and powerful options in dealing with permanents RUG normally can't deal with.

The mana base is initially very difficult to navigate, but becomes much easier with plenty of practice.

Also, having access to sideboard cards like Fire Convenant is powerfully rewarding and it works to shore up those troublesome mid range matchups. Our matchup against Jund is significantly better than RUG's.


p.s. Spell Snare is the tits. It stops nearly every game ending two drop for us at all points in the game. I don't care to know for certain that my opponent has a stone forge in their hand. It is in my best interest to assume it is there, and I'm much more comfortable knowing that I can counter it when they play it.


I used to play RUG. After making the switch, I tried to go back to RUG, but I was disappointed in it's lack of relative explosiveness, utility, and clunkiness in tapping out for tarmogoyf. I returned to BURG with more spell snares and I haven't looked back, nor have I ever been disappointed.

[dunk]

That is due to the fact that Merfolk was always a niche pet deck.

It was tier 1 during the Misstep days...

Anyway, enough nitpicking - Ashiok looks pretty awesome in here. In theory even that awesome that I want to and will play 2 copies of it. Might be unncessary or bad even, but I'd really like to draw that card as often as possible to see if it's really that good.

[mog]

Lots of proponents of the deck ; ) I'd just like to add that the combination of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt, and ALL of the good sideboard cards really gives the deck a lot of play and many options in any single game. It feels great to have multiple outs to equipment, Tarmogoyf, and all of the other troublesome permanents in the field. Except for Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan. Those cards are a real beating.

I think I like the new sideboard, too. I was confused at cutting Spell Pierce at first but now that I think about it, that card's never been very good for me. Combo decks play around it all day and we have better options against planeswalkers. The only time I miss it is against MUD, but I think my strategy against that deck is to wake up on the winning side of the fluctuation curve each morning. Clique is still really good against Sneak Show and combo but I think that having better cards against Death and Taxes, Patriot, and the midrange decks is worth it. Ashiok is interesting. So far, he just eats Abrupt Decay and gets attacked by Nemesis. I haven't managed to steal a creature yet but there is time ; )

[Tormod]

I don't want to rehash what everyone else has already said, because I couldn't say it any better myself.

What i will say is that I wanted to play a deck with the best 1 drops in the format.

Delver =/= not fooling around and we're putting you on a clock
Deathrite is "brainstrom" it fixes your draws, it fixes your mana, its a clock, its defensive, its control it simply is what you need it to be
Brainstorm is Brainstorm' nuff said
Bolt, if you're playing tempo without red you're doing it wrong
Mongoose, so much better than Geist of Saint Traft. Faster, comes out easier.

The deck has a lot of play, the ability to clock with delver AND deathrite in the goyf mirror is huge.
Abrupt decay fixes the problems of counterbalance and chalice of the void presents to RUG
Abrupt decay, Spell Snare and Golgari Charm answers Rest in Peace, which RUG has no answers

It's RUG with better technology, better suited for today's Legacy threats

[mog]

This just in, Ashiok can steal Grave Titan. I'm sold.

[Sasan]

Concerning the vulnerability of Ashiok versus Decay and Nemesis you should take this into consideration:

Nemesis needs 3 full turns to kill an Ashiok. That is why Ashiok reads: You gain 9 life. It stalls the board versus Nemesis and makes it possible to attack through it. And in the course of the three turns the chances are good that we can steal a useful creature with him. Ashiok is a nice tool to fight Nemesis.

Being a Decay magnet is good as our Goyfs and Delvers survive in that course. Having more must-answer cards versus a limited aresenal of removal is always great.


A sidenote: Ashiok not only shines versus Nicfit by stealing a Grave Titan. It makes a Veteran Explorer useless, as the card only triggers if it leaves the battlefield and not if it is put into exile from the library :)

[Sasan]

You guys rock concerning advocating bUrg. I added a section to the primer: "Believers in bUrg". I quoted some of the best anwers there ;-)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26647-Deck-bUrg-Tempo&p=747940&viewfull=1#post747940

I have nothing to add.

[Quasim0ff]

I can vouch that Ashiok is insane.
I played tested him a lot in vintage (as well as BURG), and he just gains SO much value!

[Ralf]

A sidenote: Ashiok not only shines versus Nicfit by stealing a Grave Titan. It makes a Veteran Explorer useless, as the card only triggers if it leaves the battlefield and not if it is put into graveyard from the library :)

Not even close.
Explorer triggers if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
Thragtusk triggers if it leaves the battlefield.

Just to be precise. As it will matter in a lot of games (bouncing a Thragtusk will trigger the 3/3 token :D).

Ashiok could be nice. I'll wait further testing from your side. I feel like it is more of a "control" card but in a tempo shell.
Weird but maybe fun !

[Quasim0ff]

Not even close.
Explorer triggers if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
Thragtusk triggers if it leaves the battlefield.

Just to be precise. As it will matter in a lot of games (bouncing a Thragtusk will trigger the 3/3 token :D).

Ashiok could be nice. I'll wait further testing from your side. I feel like it is more of a "control" card but in a tempo shell.
Weird but maybe fun !
The thing is, Ashiok is insane in these midrange aggro-tempo decks. Ashiok is insane in the mirror, vs maverick, vs D&T, BUG etc. It's really solid in these matches.

[Sasan]

Not even close.
Explorer triggers if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
Thragtusk triggers if it leaves the battlefield.

Just to be precise. As it will matter in a lot of games (bouncing a Thragtusk will trigger the 3/3 token :D).

Ashiok could be nice. I'll wait further testing from your side. I feel like it is more of a "control" card but in a tempo shell.
Weird but maybe fun !

Thanks, it is bit more precise than my statement but the assumption that Explorer can be handled by Ashiok is true. And Thragtusk can be handled, too.

As you play Nicfit you should know that your MU versus nearly all tempo decks is rather good. With Fire Covenants, Ashiok, Shamans we have perhaps a bit better fighting chance against Nicfit than RUG Delver, Patriot or Team America - the latter has no Stifles so it should be a cakewalk for the Nicfit player.

We always talk about the applications of Ashiok versus midrange but my buddy Carsten Linden's main intention was to break the tempo mirror with such powerful tools like Loam and Ashiok. Tempo decks are all about having enough lands (Loam fills that spot and attacks the opponent's mana base) and the right use of cantrips (Ashiok ruins all brainstorms and ponders of even the best cantrip players in the world). That Ashiok is great versus midrange and rogue decks like Nicfit and good versus Nemesis decks is a good bonus :)

[sherko7]

That's it, I'm sold. I'm getting Ashiok in. :tongue:

Anyway, for the bUrg VS the world argument:

Deathrite Shaman has warped Legacy into a format wherein there are only 2 types of "decks to beat" right now - those that play Deathrite Shaman (Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves, hell even Maverick plays them now), and those that try to beat Deathrite Shaman (faster combo decks like ANT, Sneak Show, white decks like UWR, DnT that pack RiP). OK so maybe except RUG... RUG's still in there primarily because of its consistency and the amount of followers the deck has accumulated since its conception.

With that, why the hell not pack DRS into RUG? Honestly, the tempo mirror feels almost 1 sided sometimes. We can shrink their Goose, they can't. We can get rid of their Goyf, they can't rid us of ours. I've almost never encountered mana issues with the deck, primarily and ironically because of DRS himself - the very reason to splash black.

Why play bUrg instead of just plain BUG? Simple - Lightning Bolt.

[Quasim0ff]

That's it, I'm sold. I'm getting Ashiok in. :tongue:

Anyway, for the bUrg VS the world argument:

Deathrite Shaman has warped Legacy into a format wherein there are only 2 types of "decks to beat" right now - those that play Deathrite Shaman (Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves, hell even Maverick plays them now), and those that try to beat Deathrite Shaman (faster combo decks like ANT, Sneak Show, white decks like UWR, DnT that pack RiP). OK so maybe except RUG... RUG's still in there primarily because of its consistency and the amount of followers the deck has accumulated since its conception.

With that, why the hell not pack DRS into RUG? Honestly, the tempo mirror feels almost 1 sided sometimes. We can shrink their Goose, they can't. We can get rid of their Goyf, they can't rid us of ours. I've almost never encountered mana issues with the deck, primarily and ironically because of DRS himself - the very reason to splash black.

Why play bUrg instead of just plain BUG? Simple - Lightning Bolt.
Because you'd need to play Sea, as the real reason DRS is so much better than Hierach/BoP is that it will eventually be 2 damage each turn… And then you are basically just playing BURG :)

BURG is RUG with 2 sea's, and some black cards. That's it.

[SirTylerGalt]

A sidenote: Ashiok not only shines versus Nicfit by stealing a Grave Titan. It makes a Veteran Explorer useless, as the card only triggers if it leaves the battlefield and not if it is put into graveyard from the library :)

I didn't get the Veteran Explorer part. Why would you put a Veteran Explorer into a graveyard from the library?!

[Sasan]

I didn't get the Veteran Explorer part. Why would you put a Veteran Explorer into a graveyard from the library?!

The Nicfit plan is to generate mana with Explorer. That is why they want to cast an explorer, kill it and bring two lands in play and cast their biggies. With Ashiok you can manage to prevent that "combo".

But Ralf as a NicFit player can perhaps explain it better ;-).

[SirTylerGalt]

The Nicfit plan is to generate mana with Explorer. That is why they want to cast an explorer, kill it and bring two lands in play and cast their biggies. With Ashiok you can manage to prevent that "combo".

Ralf confirmed that my understanding of the rules and interactions is right there. Anyone who plays Nicfit can prove me wrong :)

Oh ok. You want to use Ashiok to exile the Explorer before they draw it. I was confused because you were talking about the distinction between putting it in the graveyard from play or from the library. Also, Nic Fit will usually keep hands with at least one Explorer or a GSZ to find one ;)

[Sasan]

Oh ok. You want to use Ashiok to exile the Explorer before they draw it. I was confused because you were talking about the distinction between putting it in the graveyard from play or from the library. Also, Nic Fit will usually keep hands with at least one Explorer or a GSZ to find one ;)

Yes I don't say that Nicfit will fold to Ashiok but it is a tool to make that hard matchup a bit better. And I am sincerly believing that we have a winning chance against NicFit compared to RUG, Patriot or Team America.

[Holly]

But it doesn't matter if the card is in their library?! Sure you can hit with your Ashiok the Explorer .. but it's as common that they will draw it because you removed 3 cards in their library.. if you don't know its there (and how would you without cheating?) it doesn't matter at all.. The + ability does nothing against explorer (or any other creatures (besides creatures returning to the top of the library like Vengeful Pharaoh or in combination with cards like Submerge)).

[Sasan]

The thing is that Ashiok is good versus decks with a great threat density and a good number of high quality creatures. The chances are high that you can steal some useful ones. It does not matter that they draw a good creature because of the mill Ashiok provides as long as their deck is full of good creatures. Ashiok is furthermore better versus brainstorm decks that do not have that much creatures but have creatures as their win condition - aka tempo decks. I agree that Ashiok versus Explorer is just a situational thing and not the first reason to have that planeswalker in our sideboards.

[SirTylerGalt]

The thing is thaty Ashiok is good versus decks with a great threat density and a good number of high quality creatures. The chances are high that you can steal some useful ones. It does not matter that they draw a good creature because of the mill Ashiok provides as long as their deck is full of good creatures. Ashiok is furthermore better versus brainstorm decks that do not have that much creatures but have creatures as their win condition - aka tempo decks. I agree that Ashiok versus Explorer is just a situational thing and not the first reason to have that planeswalker in our sideboards.

Why is Ashiok good against Brainstorm decks? Couldn't my opponent just respond to Ashiok's ability with a Brainstorm, putting back two useless cards on top? In this case, Ashiok would actually help me get rid of useless cards (even better than a fetchland, since the bad cards are exiled, not just shuffled in the library to be drawn again).

I can see how Ashiok could be annoying for Miracles though.

Also Ashiok + Submerge seems like a great interaction :)

[sherko7]

The Nicfit plan is to generate mana with Explorer. That is why they want to cast an explorer, kill it and bring two lands in play and cast their biggies. With Ashiok you can manage to prevent that "combo".

But Ralf as a NicFit player can perhaps explain it better ;-).

I used to play Nic Fit extensively. The deck is good against tempo, and Ashiok can't do squat to fight that. The deck's fat creature density is too low to be able to hit with Ashiok reliably. Stifle Explorer triggers instead of fetches, waste on sight and hope you win before they start getting online.

[Sasan]

I used to play Nic Fit extensively. The deck is good against tempo, and Ashiok can't do squat to fight that. The deck's fat creature density is too low to be able to hit with Ashiok reliably. Stifle Explorer triggers instead of fetches, waste on sight and hope you win before they start getting online.

Yup. A bad matchup. But thank God NicFit is not a meta factor :D

[Sasan]

Why is Ashiok good against Brainstorm decks? Couldn't my opponent just respond to Ashiok's ability with a Brainstorm, putting back two useless cards on top? In this case, Ashiok would actually help me get rid of useless cards (even better than a fetchland, since the bad cards are exiled, not just shuffled in the library to be drawn again).

I can see how Ashiok could be annoying for Miracles though.

Also Ashiok + Submerge seems like a great interaction :)

Yes they can Brainstorm in response but you can mill every turn. Mathematically they cannot have an answer for that every turn. If you are ahead on the board the pure presence of Ashiok makes it really hard for them to cantrip right and seach for answers. And Ashiok hitting the board *after* the turn the tempo player has used brainstorm/ponder ruins the cantrip assuming that he laid down a draw pattern and game strategy for the next turns.

[Tormod]

I must admit, this ashiok discussion is lost on me. I'm having trouble understanding how paying 3 Mana for exile 3, then next turn using the - ability to bring one of creatures into play, and then being able swing with said creature the following turn. Is a good line of play for a tempo deck. I think I rather have Scavenging Ooze or True-Name Nemesis.

So to play Ashiok, you don't deal any damage until the 3rd turn she comes into play.

What am I missing?

[Sasan]

I must admit, this ashiok discussion is lost on me. I'm having trouble understanding how paying 3 Mana for exile 3, then next turn using the - ability to bring one of creatures into play, and then being able swing with said creature the following turn.

So to play Ashiok, you don't deal any damage until the 3rd turn she comes into play.

What am I missing?

Well casting an uncounterable Goyf the first turn after she hit the table for free and a Mongoose/Delver the next turn is really strong.

Situation: You play a first turn Shaman. They drop a first Turn Delver. You play Ashiok on your second turn with Daze backup and mill 3 and exile a Goyf. They flip the Delver on their second turn. You bolt it turn 3, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok and have two Mana open. You can cast a Mongoose and have one mana open for the opponent's next turn. If he does not have a Bolt and you untap for turn 4 you can start milling again to 4 (out of Bolt range) or take a Delver/Mongoose of available. How can the opponent ever recover from that?


The situation will never be excatly the same in reality. But I wanted to give you an idea how sweet Ashiok is.

[Ralf]

I must admit, this ashiok discussion is lost on me. I'm having trouble understanding how paying 3 Mana for exile 3, then next turn using the - ability to bring one of creatures into play, and then being able swing with said creature the following turn. Is a good line of play for a tempo deck. I think I rather have Scavenging Ooze or True-Name Nemesis.

So to play Ashiok, you don't deal any damage until the 3rd turn she comes into play.

What am I missing?

I'm on the same page as you are !

Now "opening our minds" it could work a bit as miracle kind of stuff:
Fire covenant (terminus) everything they have on board at their EOT. Next turn drop Ashiok (Jace) and start winning...

Until further testing I'm not sold at all !!! ahahah

[Sasan]

I can happily announce that Carsten Linden - our bUrg specialist and tempo guru - has written an article for MTGMadness on how to win the tempo mirror easily. The article will answer some of the questions arising from the use of Ashiok in the tempo mirrors. Once the article goes online I will inform you.

[Sasan]

I'm on the same page as you are !

Now "opening our minds" it could work a bit as miracle kind of stuff:
Fire covenant (terminus) everything they have on board at their EOT. Next turn drop Ashiok (Jace) and start winning...

Until further testing I'm not sold at all !!! ahahah

I always encourage all bUrg players to test (may it be Ashiok, Golgari Charm, the lack of Spell Pierces in the blueprint list) and write in the thread. With the testings and the help of you all we could analyze TNN in a record time and are ahead of the rest of the legacy world that packs TNN in every blue deck now before realizing that he is a flop in tempo decks. We must keep up the good work and test. Just the fact that Carsten and I propose you to play a certain list just does not mean that you should follow him or me blindly. Sometimes a dicussion can bring new insights.

A sidenote: As we love rogue tactics we confront you often with unknown or underplayed cards like Fire Covenant, Compost or now Ashiok. It is normal that the first reaction is mixed. But look at Compost: Even RUG Delver players name it as a good way to fight Shardless. Today someone suggested playing Fire Covenant in rg goblins instead of Pyrokinesis'. You see: the bUrg thread is full of innovations :D

Second sidenote: The main application of Ashiok is to steal creatues. Simple as that. The brainstorm effects etc can be ignored as you will always try to cast it as soon as possible and will steadily use - 2 until you hit a good creature. The possible subtle effects versus brainstorm are just situational side effects.

Third and last sidenote: Versus Miracles Ashiok is ok because oft he ultimate and the possibilty to hit a Snapcaster. But if you have better sideboard options, do not board it in ;)

[Megadeus]

I just don't see how ashiok prevents explorer from doing anything. If explorer is already on board (as it is a one drop) then ashiok does nothing.

[Sasan]

I just don't see how ashiok prevents explorer from doing anything. If explorer is already on board (as it is a one drop) then ashiok does nothing.

Right. Only if it is not on board. If Explorer is on board and you do not have Stifle, you have lost anyway. But let us go away from the Nicfit MU that is 30 % :D It takes up too much room. Let us concentrate on the matchups that matter.

[SirTylerGalt]

Well casting an uncounterable Goyf the first turn after she hit the table for free and a Mongoose/Delver the next turn is really strong.

Situation: You play a first turn Shaman. They drop a first Turn Delver. You play Ashiok on your second turn with Daze backup and mill 3 and "exile" a Goyf to the graveyard. They flip the Delver on their second turn. You bolt it turn 3, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok and have two Mana open. You can cast a Mongoose and have one mana open for the opponent's next turn. If he does not have a Bolt and you untap for turn 4 you have a Delver for free and can start milling again to 4 (out of Bolt range). How can the opponent ever recover from that?


The situation will never be exactly the same in reality. But I wanted to give you an idea how sweet Ashiok is.

Turn 1 (you): Cast Shaman
Turn 1 (him): Cast Delver
Turn 2 (you): Ashiok, mill 3, exiling a Goyf (BTW, I still have no idea why you always talk about the "graveyard" when talking about Ashiok, since it exiles cards!). Ashiok has 5 loyalty.
Turn 2 (him): Flip Delver, attack Ashiok down to 2.
Turn 3 (you): Bolt Delver, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok, Ashiok dies?

Casting your own Goyf on T2 here would have been better than casting Ashiok here, since you would have had 1 mana open for Spell Snare / Spell Pierce (or even to Bolt his Delver T2), and you end up with a Goyf too...

I need to test Ashiok, but I feel like a 3-mana card is not necessarily the best plan in the tempo mirror... Maybe against midrange or Miracles to disrupt their Sensei's Divining Top shenanigans. But in the mirror, I think it's too expensive. Unless you plan to play it as a late-game bomb, once both players are in top-deck mode... But in this case I'd rather have a Planeswalker that can protect itself, like Jace or Lili. Or a True-Name Nemesis to finish the damage race!

[Sasan]

Having another Goyf would not be better in the situation because the opponent does not have its Goyf anymore. Furthermore we play only with 2 Goyfs so we do not have it always in the opener :)

The graveyard part has been edited out, it is a concentration error due to the lack of sleep ;)

[SirTylerGalt]

Having another Goyf would not be better in the situation because the opponent does not have its Goyf anymore. Furthermore we play only with 2 Goyfs so we do not have it always in the opener :)

The graveyard part has been edited out, it is a concentration error due to the lack of sleep ;)

Yes, but removing a Goyf from your opponent's library is not the same as removing it from his hand. Statistically, if his creatures are shuffled randomly in his library, removing the top 3 cards shouldn't change the statistical distribution of creatures. You could as well be removing 3 lands with Ashiok, helping your opponent find a threat faster... And if he uses Brainstorm and Ponder to draw useful cards and keep useless cards on top of his library, Ashiok actually helps him improve the density of good cards in his library.

[Lemnear]

I rather cast Threads of Disloyalty on a resolved Tarmogoyf than durdling with a 3cc Walker in the Tempo mirror. Didn't you declare TNN a no-go in the Tempo mirror lately because of the cost? Investing 3 mana for a complete random effect in Tempo is not where you want to go afaik.

[Sasan]

I rather cast Threads of Disloyalty on a resolved Tarmogoyf than durdling with a 3cc Walker in the Tempo mirror. Didn't you declare TNN a no-go in the Tempo mirror lately because of the cost? Investing 3 mana for a complete random effect in Tempo is not where you want to go afaik.

Yup good points :-). But we are talking about a SB card and not about 2 MD TNN' replacing our Goyfs in the lists. It is a 3-drop that can grind the opponent out and has the potential to grab 1-x creatures. 2-for-1s are always costier. TNN is a 1 for 1 for 3.

Threads or Mind Harness are limited. Ashiok can make for example use of the come to battlefield triggers of the DnT creatures or steal a non-green/red creature with CC>3. It saves SB space due to the broad applications.

[dunk]

I must admit, this ashiok discussion is lost on me. I'm having trouble understanding how paying 3 Mana for exile 3, then next turn using the - ability to bring one of creatures into play, and then being able swing with said creature the following turn. Is a good line of play for a tempo deck. I think I rather have Scavenging Ooze or True-Name Nemesis.

So to play Ashiok, you don't deal any damage until the 3rd turn she comes into play.

What am I missing?

The point is that sometimes the tempo strategy will not work but instead a grind starts, which "Rug / Burg" usually has trouble to win. It's rarely about exiling cards, but about getting some "tempo" by forcing them to deal with your walker or you will create an immense board advantage pretty fast. That's the theory behind it at least. I haven't got to play with it yet...

The example with Veteran Explorer was weird though. If they don't have it on turn 1... arrogant as I am I think they are dead by then. Ashiok would seal the deal pretty fast though, and being able to snatch their creatures sounds sweet. Exiling is also quite strong against them. If they nutdraw us then Ashiok probably sucks, but so do all cards of our deck then...

[Star|Scream]

Yup good points :-). But we are talking about a SB card and not about 2 MD TNN' replacing our Goyfs in the lists. It is a 3-drop that can grind the opponent out and has the potential to grab 1-x creatures. 2-for-1s are always costier. TNN is a 1 for 1 for 3.

Threads or Mind Harness are limited. Ashiok can make for example use of the come to battlefield triggers of the DnT creatures or steal a non-green/red creature with CC>3. It saves SB space due to the broad applications.

But it requires an empty board or you to have blockers because it can't defend itself. Also, there is always a nonzero chance that you will exile three non-creatures MULTIPLE turns in a row.

Bottom line is it does nothing to affect the board or your hand the turn it etb.

[SirTylerGalt]

Don't get me wrong: I like the idea of having a Planeswalker I can use in the late-game once both players are in top-deck mode. Jacob Wilson played a Jace in his RUG Delver sideboard when he won the Seattle SCG Legacy Open. I think Ashiok might be good in that role against creature decks (and possibly Miracles, since it foils their Top shenanigans). But I think we shouldn't play it for the wrong reasons. It doesn't reduce the opponent's threat density: yes, you can get lucky and exile 3 creatures at once; but you can also get unlucky and exile 3 lands. Also, it's not a given that it would mess up their cantripping: if they cantrip correctly, they can actually use Ashiok to their advantage.

BTW, since we are considering Ashiok, couldn't we also consider other planeswalkers, such as Jace or Ral Zarek? Since Jacob Wilson was playing a 1-of Jace in his RUG Delver sideboard, couldn't we also consider it in bUrg? Deathrite Shaman lets us cast it earlier too :)

[Sasan]

Florian Koch plays Ral Zarek in his SB and was always a fan. We started with Jace, too, but CC4 is too ambitious. Jacob's play style of laying down a land per turn is controversial as we want to use unnecessary lands in our hands for BS (aka Ancestral Recall) ;-) That is why cc4 is out of question for me. If it was not the case, I would crush control, the tempo mirrors and the decay matchups with Thrun ;-)

[from Cairo]

Turn 1 (you): Cast Shaman
Turn 1 (him): Cast Delver
Turn 2 (you): Ashiok, mill 3, exiling a Goyf (BTW, I still have no idea why you always talk about the "graveyard" when talking about Ashiok, since it exiles cards!). Ashiok has 5 loyalty.
Turn 2 (him): Flip Delver, attack Ashiok down to 2.
Turn 3 (you): Bolt Delver, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok, Ashiok dies?


Worth noting at this point your opponent has established Ashiok as a concern and apparently doesn't have the burn spell to finish it off. The bUrg Player could elect to Bolt the Delver and tick Ashiok up again, bringing the Planeswalker out of burn range and perhaps exiling more threats.

My understanding of the card's purpose is that it's a fast form of disruption to library manipulation, it pulls/distracts the opponents resources due to it's high starting loyalty, and if one can utilize it on a favorable board position it provides inevitability - either closing a game quickly with subsequent +2 -X turns exploding board presence, or slowly by eliminating options from the opponents deck for a couple turns at a time and deploying threats without expending Ashiok's loyalty.

Admittedly 3 mana is a lot and this card requires multiple turns to make an impact. I don't know that it's great, but from what Sasan is describing I can see some potential.

[mog]

I'm still testing with Ashiok but I think that it is best saved for a stalled board or a situation where we can protect it. And I agree that milling with Ashiok is like rolling the dice if it doesn't live long enough to minus. Just keep it alive long enough to minus.

[gluedstamps]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4IwASk_gpJ0

:-) Great Play by mog.

It's a pleasure to watch Ed play! It was very inspiring when I saw it the first time.

Regarding the Nic Fit vs RUG/bUrg matchup
I've played A LOT with both Nic Fit and RUG and it's more or less impossible for RUG to win unless they draw perfect or the Nic Fit player is bad (something that usually seems to be the case). bUrg has a way better matchup thanks to Fire Covenant. Pre-board the mu is hard but afterwards it's more of less impossible to loose, unless you make horrible play mistakes. Suddenly their bombs can be unarmoured. Sure, I've lost games when I've drawn dead and didn't manage to flip Delver for like five turns, etc but that's rather unlikely..

Haven't played bUrg that much BUT it feels way better then RUG over all. Sure, it's harder to navigate but with the right decisions you've (at least) the possibility to beat any deck, even the hard matchups for RUG.

[Tormod]

If it was not the case, I would crush control, the tempo mirrors and the decay matchups with Thrun ;-)

You know, it wouldn't take much to persuade me to run an "uncounterable" hex-proof, regenerating Troll in the sb. What the heck, I'm going to give it a go at my next local.

In terms of finding a card that can grind out games, how about a Jitte? I know it doesn't work with Goose but we have 9-10 creatures that it would, and if you run a clique or something that could work.

I've also considered Scavenging Ooze

Bitterblossom could also be an interesting candidate as the "grind" card we're looking for. Would make having a Jitte even more techy and tempting.

(disclaimer: I'm thinking out-loud and sharing my thoughts as they come to me)

[KobeBryan]

been playing this deck on cockatrice

I still lose to BUG shardless

THe matchup isn't any different than playign with RUG

[Sasan]

been playing this deck on cockatrice

I still lose to BUG shardless

THe matchup isn't any different than playign with RUG

The matchup is fair and around 50/50. Perhaps you can tell me what is the most difficult part for you in the matchup so that we can analyze how you can change your playstyle ;-).

[Sasan]

You know, it wouldn't take much to persuade me to run an "uncounterable" hex-proof, regenerating Troll in the sb. What the heck, I'm going to give it a go at my next local.

In terms of finding a card that can grind out games, how about a Jitte? I know it doesn't work with Goose but we have 9-10 creatures that it would, and if you run a clique or something that could work.

I've also considered Scavenging Ooze

Bitterblossom could also be an interesting candidate as the "grind" card we're looking for. Would make having a Jitte even more techy and tempting.

(disclaimer: I'm thinking out-loud and sharing my thoughts as they come to me)

I took Bitterblossomg into consideration already. It is a bit slow but nice versus Lilliana. The idea is to have a token generator that can protect our Mongeese from Lilli's edict effects. For that matter. Ashiok fills that creature generating role a bit and is more powerful.

Jitte would be nice if Mongoose had hexproof. But with shroud we render 1/3 of our creatures un-equipable :) Ooze is good in grindy games versus the graveyard dependent tempo mirrors (aka RUG and to some degree Team America). But Ooze does nothing versus Patriot.

Sulfuric Vortrex works nice in the grindy games versus control, not so versus the tempo mirror.

If you are considering playing Thrun, just play TNN as it is far better castable. But it dies to Plagus, Charms, REBS (counter mode) etc. So yeah Thrun is better *if* you have the mana open. The evasion part is not relevant as you want a beatstick that can clear the ground and give you some time to find Bolts, Delvers, Shamans and "ping" the opponent to the face.

I still think that Ashiok is the card we are looking for when it comes to flexibility. Due to our limited SB space we need a card that can break tempo mirrros, control MUs and perhaps midrange creature matchups. Ashiok fills that role with TNN in the second place and the third place belongs to Clique. The latter is not so good versus tempo but great versus combo, control and Aether Vial and Punishing Fire midrange decks.

Fun card that would be great if the color requirements were not so horrible: Sprouting Thrinax.

[KobeBryan]

The matchup is fair and around 50/50. Perhaps you can tell me what is the most difficult part for you in the matchup so that we can analyze how you can change your playstyle ;-).

The way i've been play is that i try to stifle their fetches, then wasteland their duals.

If i see a DRS in play, I bolt it instantly.

But you can only do this for so long until they drop threats down like goyf and their baleful strix. I have actually bolted a baleful so I can attack.

When they get their engine online its pretty much game.

On g2, I usually take out my daze or fow depending on the draw or play. I would bring in 2 fire covenants, 2 pyroblasts for their blue cards.

I'm not sure if i want to bring in submerge.

[mog]

Submerge is excellent against Tarmogoyf, Shardless BUG, and Team America. Consider saving your Stifle for Shardless Agent, Ancestral Vision, or Liliana. Consider saving your Bolt for Baleful Strix, other blockers, or Liliana if you have your own Deathrite Shaman, have a large graveyard, or do not need your graveyard as a resource.

[Teadaze]

I also don't get, why Ashiok should be that good. Especially in Tempo mirrors with 12 creatures and like 50 cards in the deck, the chances to exile a creature should be below 50% for the first try (1-0,8×0,8×0,8=0,488).
In the best case you get a creature after the turn you dropped.Ashiok and he survived, why not play a nemesis instead?
Is the potential ca really worth the risk?
If we want an edge in grindy matchups why not play sylvan library ?
Maybe I missed something but has this card been discussed before?
Unfortunally I can't playtest a lot so I am somehow dependant on other people's impressions.
Btw I got third at a local tournament last week. Only loss to belcher, in the importent third geme I kept a risky hand with ponder and daze, hoping to draw something wich was a mistake i guess. I am still missing flusterstorms in the sideboard but I think I mainly still need to learn a lot.

[sherko7]

This is it. I'm taking this baby to a bigger tourney tomorrow. Our "bigger" tourneys make up 50-60 people at most. 70-80 if we're lucky. I have 2 byes, so in 6 rds I just need to win my first 2 (go 4-0) then ID the next 2 to get top 8.

Just minor tweaks to the SB. Was unable to get Ashiok, but I'm pretty confident about the tempo mirror anyway.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

[Sasan]

Good luck :-) Hope you do well.

[Tormod]

go bUrg, go!

good luck

[fdiv_bug]

This is it. I'm taking this baby to a bigger tourney tomorrow.

Best of luck, man! I'm looking forward to hearing if the Forked Bolt ends up making any difference, because I think the card is pretty good right now.

[sherko7]

Time to go! I hope the Pithing Needle is worth it. I'm not really concerned with the Forked Bolt. Its great! The additional removal + reach + possible 2 for 1 is really worth it. I just hope I don't run into the Tempo haters. Our current meta is full of RUG and Patriot, so I wouldn't be surprised if the meta is prepared for them like the last tourney. Anyway, here's the poster. Gotta go. :smile:

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1385011_10202487586337893_2116147406_n.jpg

[sherko7]

Well I got 9th. 50-60 players played. Lost to Omnitell (G3 I had Pyroblast and double FoW but lacked a blue card, he had a Pact anyway for the 2nd FoW) and then lost my win and in against Junk (mull to 5 games 1-2, mana screw game 3). The deck is well positioned against most of the decks to beat, unfortunately loses to most decks trying to beat the tempo meta here (Junk, Maverick, DnT). Also managed to draw 3 DRS twice, one of them against combo. Not really a good day for me. Not planning to post a report, starting to feel like I need to cut a color, but we'll see. The deck's pretty solid, albeit it lacks the consistency of RUG or BUG. The deck would sometimes feel clunky, the double/triple DRS draws are one of 'em. Sometimes Decay can be a pain to cast as well, and then a couple of times I'd feel like 2 Decays are not enough. One thing I'd definitely want in the future is to grab True Name Nemesis. That solves a lot of the deck's issues, but we'll see! Pretty hard to track those down locally. :tongue:

Don't get me wrong, the deck still packs a punch! Need more work on the board probably. Forked Bolt was a blast! Definitely worth cutting 1 Snare. The Pithing Needle in the board didn't really come up so I don't really know if it's worth it.

[Sasan]

Ah that was close to top 8. But anyway, congrats for the stellar finish.

Regarding the three problem matchups that you mentionned, I can assure you that GW Maverick is nearly unlosable after boarding and the Jund matchup is in our favour, too. DnT is rough but even.

Against all 3 decks more shroud creatures (TNN, Reanimate) or just playing more creatures (Ashiok) help. Versus DnT and Maverick 2 Fire Covenants and 1 Dread of Night/Golgari Charm solve all your problems. Compost is insane versus Jund. So there are more powerful tools here to fight these 3 decks. RUG has an awful midrange MU and bUrg is solid there.

Playing Forked Bolt seems reasonable but I do not like sorcery speed removal. How about Tarfire, Izzet Charm or Dismember or even Disfigure? :)

[paeng4983]

Well I got 9th. 50-60 players played. Lost to Omnitell (G3 I had Pyroblast and double FoW but lacked a blue card, he had a Pact anyway for the 2nd FoW) and then lost my win and in against Junk (mull to 5 games 1-2, mana screw game 3). The deck is well positioned against most of the decks to beat, unfortunately loses to most decks trying to beat the tempo meta here (Junk, Maverick, DnT). Also managed to draw 3 DRS twice, one of them against combo. Not really a good day for me. Not planning to post a report, starting to feel like I need to cut a color, but we'll see. The deck's pretty solid, albeit it lacks the consistency of RUG or BUG. The deck would sometimes feel clunky, the double/triple DRS draws are one of 'em. Sometimes Decay can be a pain to cast as well, and then a couple of times I'd feel like 2 Decays are not enough. One thing I'd definitely want in the future is to grab True Name Nemesis. That solves a lot of the deck's issues, but we'll see! Pretty hard to track those down locally. :tongue:

Don't get me wrong, the deck still packs a punch! Need more work on the board probably. Forked Bolt was a blast! Definitely worth cutting 1 Snare. The Pithing Needle in the board didn't really come up so I don't really know if it's worth it.

I feel you in your 9th finish. I've been there a lot of times.
Let's get back at them on December one. I hope to see you and your brother there!

[sherko7]

Ah that was close to top 8. But anyway, congrats for the stellar finish.

Regarding the three problem matchups that you mentionned, I can assure you that GW Maverick is nearly unlosable after boarding and the Jund matchup is in our favour, too. DnT is rough but even.

Against all 3 decks more shroud creatures (TNN, Reanimate) or just playing more creatures (Ashiok) help. Versus DnT and Maverick 2 Fire Covenants and 1 Dread of Night/Golgari Charm solve all your problems. Compost is insane versus Jund. So there are more powerful tools here to fight these 3 decks. RUG has an awful midrange MU and bUrg is solid there.

Playing Forked Bolt seems reasonable but I do not like sorcery speed removal. How about Tarfire, Izzet Charm or Dismember or even Disfigure? :)

I don't like Tarfire simply because we only play 2 Goyfs, and most of our opponents play 4. I've tried Izzet Charm, its a bit too clunky. 1cc removal is what I need. Dismember and Disfigure would work, but I really like the possible 2-for-1 that Forked Bolt provides. :smile:


I feel you in your 9th finish. I've been there a lot of times.
Let's get back at them on December one. I hope to see you and your brother there!

I really wanna play this Dec. 1st but I might have a family gathering to attend, but we'll see! :smile:

On a sidenote, I'm working on a whole new build. Not sure if it would still belong in this thread but:

Creatures (12):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (30):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy/Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Cabal Therapy and Stifle are interchangeable. They're both kinda dead late game, but at least Stifle can be exiled to FoW. The build maximizes the potential DRS and brings along Pyro for the ride. T1 DRS, into T2 Pyro into Cabal Therapy is nasty. Don't even get me started about what happens if you have Probe and even Daze back-up. This is a rough list I came up with during work, and will surely test it out soon. I think that with Pyro, we should prefer to be pro-active rather than reactive, which is why I prefer Therapy over Stifle here. Let me know what you think. I know Sasan doesn't like Pyro in bUrg. I didn't like him before, but he maybe worth giving a second look.:tongue:

[fdiv_bug]

Playing Forked Bolt seems reasonable but I do not like sorcery speed removal. How about Tarfire, Izzet Charm or Dismember or even Disfigure? :)

Funny you said that, Sasan. Yesterday at a 22-person weekly at my friendly local game store I ran the same main as sherko7, but with a Badlands in place of the second Volcanic Island (which I'll discuss a little below), and I became annoyed at least once over the course of 5 rounds because I couldn't use Sorcery-speed Forked Bolt to pull combat tricks. I do agree that the two-for-one potential of the card is very high right now, but I've swapped it with a Fire // Ice to preserve that aspect, while giving me Instant speed and pitching to Force of Will like the Spell Snare it replaced. I'll have to see with testing whether the one additional mana to cast Fire versus Forked Bolt is a major hindrance, and I have no idea if Ice will ever come in handy.

Regarding the Badlands over the second Volcanic Island, it occurred to me that at least one of our turn-one plays -- Nimble Mongoose -- would require green out of the gate, ideally with a Tropical Island for Daze support. Therefore, in order to be able to cast Abrupt Decay on turn two should the need arise, as well as get our fourth color online with only two lands in play, the next land would need to be a Badlands. A turn one Volcanic Island is suboptimal because it won't let us cast Abrupt Decay on turn two, nor can we have all four colors online turn two unless we added a Bayou, which still wouldn't help us cast the Decay. The only thing I dislike about the Badlands is it can't be fetched with a Misty Rainforest, requiring me to flip the Rainforest/Tarn split to 3 of the former and 4 of the latter. I know this topic has been discussed before, both in the primer and in the thread, and I'm not looking to dig up any old grudges, but that's my reasoning for the change. If there are things I have overlooked or angles I failed to consider, please bring them up. :)

I also had the chance to play against True-Name Nemesis in two of the rounds, both times in Shardless BUG. Those two rounds were the only ones I lost, and I only lost them because of TNN. It's my opinion that printing that card was a bad idea, not because it's an unstoppable blowout (which it can be if you haven't specifically built to hate it and cards like it), but because it's simply not a fun way to lose. I was running the stock sideboard, but with the frustration of losing two very un-fun rounds, along with the strong performance of the card at SCG Dallas yesterday, I think I'm going to up the Golgari Charm count in the board to two, or possibly swap it with Toxic Deluge. I don't know what I'd want to drop to make room for either, though, so I'm open to any and all suggestions. I think that TNN is going to be out in force at Grand Prix Washington D.C. next weekend, and I'd like to make sure we have the best answers available, so let's discuss!

Other than the problem posed by TNN, a problem which affects everybody, I think this is an awesome deck with plenty of answers and opportunities to reward tight play, and I'm really looking forward to running it in DC.

[Water_Wizard]

I wanted to post some results from Legacy 2-mans on MTGO. I played 10 matches and am 7-3. With a little tighter play, I think that I could have been 8-2. I'll briefly discuss my match-ups and then discuss my questions and comments with bUrg.

I'm running the stock list, with the only change being 1 Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard over the Ashiok. The GDC is for the Elves match-up, after reading this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-uwr-delver/ and it did save my butt once.

Burn; 2-0 matches, 4-1 games
I was able to get early Delvers, followed by Goyfs. My opponent probably made some play mistakes by directing early burn at my dome and not directing early burn at my Delvers. It was nice to be able to run the whole deck off of two mana, minimizing the Price of Progress blowout. Additionally, I don't think that this opponent ran Volcanic Fallout, which would have been a beating. Life gain from Shaman's kept me in at least one of the games. My opponent also had some land-heavy draws and needed to mulligan a few times, which helped.

Shardless; 1-0 matches, 2-0 games. Not much to say. I think that my opponent made some poor decisions, as he chose to double FOW a turn 1 delver (I won the roll, land, delver, he FOW's, I Daze, he FOW's again - okay, you can have a mull to 3). He has a mana-heavy draw game 2.

12-Post; 1-1 matches, 2-2 games.
The first time I played against this deck, I was absolutely blownout. He was able to hit his land drops while I built an army of graveyard-dependent creatures (DRS, Nimble, Goyf). I was attacking into him and had him on a 2-turn clock. He drops Bojuka Bog, which I Stifle. I attack him down to 7, with lethal on the board, adding a Goyf (my board is DRS, threshed NM, threshed NM, and Goyf). He drops Vesuva, copying Bojuka Bog - there goes my graveyard. He then casts Trinket Mage for Tormod's Crypt, nuking his own graveyard. My once proud army becomes a 1/2, 1/1, 1/1, and 0/1, with his 2/2 Trinket Mage ruling the board. I don't draw any burn and he cast Primeval Titan the next game and I scoop.
In the games that I won, I was able to use Stifle an Expedition Map and Wasteland to buy time before slowly dwindling his life total. Glimmerpost hurts, as it buys extra turns, and thus, extra land drops. I boarded in Ancient Grudge in this match-up, as there were plenty of targets. He ran Pithing Needle main (which I needed to FOW game 1) and he also ran Oblivion Stone, along with Candelabra, Expedition Map, and the Trinket Mage package, which I assume included Chalice of the Void.

Elves; 2-0 matches, 4-1 games.
Grafdigger's Cage saved my butt, as he had Natural Order in hand. GDC does a great job neutering GSZ and NO. Delvers are key in this match-up, as the ground crew doesn't do much except for blocking. In both of my rounds against Elves, they boarded in Thoughtseize, which I though was odd. Personally, I don't think that the deck diluting is worth it, but I'm not a master Elves pilot. Two of my wins were very close, with needing Delvers to blind flip or else face death - nail bitters. I also tried boarding in Dazes on the play, as I think that the tempo boost can be worthwhile - I removed Stifles and an extra Mongoose. However, Stifle can be helpful in targeting Craterhoof's cip ability.

RUG; 0-1 matches, 0-2 games.
The first game, he won the roll and just outdrew me. He hit 3 Goyfs with minimal cantripping, which was just too much for me to handle. In game two (which I reviewed via video playback), I made some poor sequencing choices and allowed him to block my un-threshed Goose with his unflipped Delver, which was a poor decision, in retrospect. Had I sequenced more optimally, I'm certain that I could have forced a game 3.

Bant Enchantress; 0-1 matches; 1-2 games
This match-up ran the RiP, Energy Field, Helm combo with Emrakul as a back-up plan. He was running at least 3 RiP main, which just neutered my army. Game 3, he dropped 2 Carpet of Flowers, which I chose to battle over because he was stuck on one Forest. Anyhow, he pulls out of it before I can apply enough pressure and I die to tentacle monster. The new legends rule also helps him out as he can use two Serra's Sanctums per turn.

High Tide; 1-0 matches; 2-0 games.
He gets stuck on land in game 2 and I am able to Flusterstorm his cantrips to keep him locked on 1 land (I had another Flusterstorm in hand and it was clear that he was digging for land).

My thoughts/comments about the deck. Overall, it was very smooth, although I had good draws for the most part (only needed to mulligan a handful of times). This deck does surprisingly well against combo and midrange, although falters against slower decks if it cannot run enough tempo and does not find an early beater. I did have trouble finding black during the burn match-up. I like fdiv_bug's suggestion of swapping a Volcanic Island for a Badlands, and I might try that, but I'm wary of having too many non-Island lands.

This deck is extremely susceptible to graveyard hate, and cards like RiP mean that we only have 4 creatures that have the potential of greater than 1 power. For that reason, I will be looking to broaden the threat-base (TNN) or increase the Abrupt Decay count.

In any case, I feel that this deck is finely tuned and does have a great game-plan against most, if not all, of the top-tier decks. The sideboard advice in the primer is very much appreciated. I tried some variations, like leaving in Daze versus Elves (which I did not like) and bringing in Ancient Grudge vs. Twelve Post, and generally, I think that the sideboard options are very solid. I'm looking forward to playing against more of the creature-based decks, like Death and Taxes and Maverick. I would also like to play against the mid-range/control match-up, in either Esper and/or Miracles.

[Sasan]

I don't like Tarfire simply because we only play 2 Goyfs, and most of our opponents play 4. I've tried Izzet Charm, its a bit too clunky. 1cc removal is what I need. Dismember and Disfigure would work, but I really like the possible 2-for-1 that Forked Bolt provides. :smile:



I really wanna play this Dec. 1st but I might have a family gathering to attend, but we'll see! :smile:

On a sidenote, I'm working on a whole new build. Not sure if it would still belong in this thread but:

Creatures (12):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (30):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy/Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Cabal Therapy and Stifle are interchangeable. They're both kinda dead late game, but at least Stifle can be exiled to FoW. The build maximizes the potential DRS and brings along Pyro for the ride. T1 DRS, into T2 Pyro into Cabal Therapy is nasty. Don't even get me started about what happens if you have Probe and even Daze back-up. This is a rough list I came up with during work, and will surely test it out soon. I think that with Pyro, we should prefer to be pro-active rather than reactive, which is why I prefer Therapy over Stifle here. Let me know what you think. I know Sasan doesn't like Pyro in bUrg. I didn't like him before, but he maybe worth giving a second look.:tongue:


Although I think that your list will do fine, I strongly believe that you need some shroud/hexproof creatures in that build. The reason why UR Delver never took of was the fact that they never had shroud creatures and therefore lacked constiency - now they have TNN ;-).

I never said that Young Pyromancer is bad in bUrg. But I stated that the card needs to be a 4-off and therefore there is no space for him. The fact that we play rather reactive spells and not much burn, Therepies or Probes was a problem, too. And Goyf is always a better topdeck. Therefore YP in bUrg is meh and Goyf is always ok or striclty better - especially as a game-ending 2-off bomb. But feel free to try YP. Even some RUG lists use him to a certain degree ;-).

[Sasan]

Funny you said that, Sasan. Yesterday at a 22-person weekly at my friendly local game store I ran the same main as sherko7, but with a Badlands in place of the second Volcanic Island (which I'll discuss a little below), and I became annoyed at least once over the course of 5 rounds because I couldn't use Sorcery-speed Forked Bolt to pull combat tricks. I do agree that the two-for-one potential of the card is very high right now, but I've swapped it with a Fire // Ice to preserve that aspect, while giving me Instant speed and pitching to Force of Will like the Spell Snare it replaced. I'll have to see with testing whether the one additional mana to cast Fire versus Forked Bolt is a major hindrance, and I have no idea if Ice will ever come in handy.

Regarding the Badlands over the second Volcanic Island, it occurred to me that at least one of our turn-one plays -- Nimble Mongoose -- would require green out of the gate, ideally with a Tropical Island for Daze support. Therefore, in order to be able to cast Abrupt Decay on turn two should the need arise, as well as get our fourth color online with only two lands in play, the next land would need to be a Badlands. A turn one Volcanic Island is suboptimal because it won't let us cast Abrupt Decay on turn two, nor can we have all four colors online turn two unless we added a Bayou, which still wouldn't help us cast the Decay. The only thing I dislike about the Badlands is it can't be fetched with a Misty Rainforest, requiring me to flip the Rainforest/Tarn split to 3 of the former and 4 of the latter. I know this topic has been discussed before, both in the primer and in the thread, and I'm not looking to dig up any old grudges, but that's my reasoning for the change. If there are things I have overlooked or angles I failed to consider, please bring them up. :)

I also had the chance to play against True-Name Nemesis in two of the rounds, both times in Shardless BUG. Those two rounds were the only ones I lost, and I only lost them because of TNN. It's my opinion that printing that card was a bad idea, not because it's an unstoppable blowout (which it can be if you haven't specifically built to hate it and cards like it), but because it's simply not a fun way to lose. I was running the stock sideboard, but with the frustration of losing two very un-fun rounds, along with the strong performance of the card at SCG Dallas yesterday, I think I'm going to up the Golgari Charm count in the board to two, or possibly swap it with Toxic Deluge. I don't know what I'd want to drop to make room for either, though, so I'm open to any and all suggestions. I think that TNN is going to be out in force at Grand Prix Washington D.C. next weekend, and I'd like to make sure we have the best answers available, so let's discuss!

Other than the problem posed by TNN, a problem which affects everybody, I think this is an awesome deck with plenty of answers and opportunities to reward tight play, and I'm really looking forward to running it in DC.

Hey, good finish mate :) Regarding the Badlands versus Volcanic Island topic: With Taiga and Badlands we will have more often situations where land and cantrip in the opener is a direct mulligan if the land is Taiga, Wasteland or Badlands. With Badlands the odds are far highter to take a mulligan. Therefore I would never play more than one non-blue dual in bUrg. Furthermore you stated another problem: Not all our fetchlands can get Badlands. A great advantage of bUrg and RUG is the ability to fetch everything with every fetchland. Let us not lose that advantage. I discussed it in the primer that Badlands may be an alternative to Taiga, but not to Volcanic Island.

Funny thing is that I tested in recent weeks a changed mana base : - 1 Volcanic + 1 Fetch. It worked great as we do not need that much red sources. But that testing was before the print of TNN. Now REBs from the board are crucial and one elegant way to fight TNN. Having red mana as soon as possible is needed. Yes I know that a fetch can get you red mana, too. But I don't want to compromise on red sources in the new unknown TNN meta.

Regarding TNN: If TNN becomes a thing after the hype is over we can think about exchanging one Fire Covenant with Toxic Deluge. Then we would have 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluxe, 2 REBs versus Nemesis. That should be enough. If you do not want to cut Fire Covenants (a one-sided Wrath of God at instant speed is perhaps still a must and therefore should still be a 2off), you can cut Ashiok for the second Charm or first Engineered Plague or an Edict effect or a third REB. You see we have tools to fight TNN.

But honestly I think that our current list as good chances versus Nemesis, too if we adapt our playstyle. I read plenty of tournament reports of players piloting TNN and watched every video available etc..My conclusion of all this is that the players rely very much on TNN and have tuned their decklists in such a manner that they cannot afford *not* to have at least one TNN active per game. That means that we must spend all our ressources and spells in preventing TNN. In the maindeck have 4 Forces of Wills, 4 Dazes that are kept alife with Stifle and Wasteland (come on, TNN is still a 3-Drop). In the sideboard we have 2 REBS and one Golgari Charm. Ashiok is a Nemesis magnet and can lead to a 3-turn-delay of the clock of Nemesis. So we have pre board 8 tools to fight Nemesis and afer boarding still 8 ones (assuming that some Dazes or Forces are boarded out), but after boarding our tools are more effective. With our cantrip action and the fact that the opponent cannot run more than 4 copies of TNN I think that we have a mathematical advantage here.

[Sasan]

I wanted to post some results from Legacy 2-mans on MTGO. I played 10 matches and am 7-3. With a little tighter play, I think that I could have been 8-2. I'll briefly discuss my match-ups and then discuss my questions and comments with bUrg.

I'm running the stock list, with the only change being 1 Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard over the Ashiok. The GDC is for the Elves match-up, after reading this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-uwr-delver/ and it did save my butt once.

Burn; 2-0 matches, 4-1 games
I was able to get early Delvers, followed by Goyfs. My opponent probably made some play mistakes by directing early burn at my dome and not directing early burn at my Delvers. It was nice to be able to run the whole deck off of two mana, minimizing the Price of Progress blowout. Additionally, I don't think that this opponent ran Volcanic Fallout, which would have been a beating. Life gain from Shaman's kept me in at least one of the games. My opponent also had some land-heavy draws and needed to mulligan a few times, which helped.

Shardless; 1-0 matches, 2-0 games. Not much to say. I think that my opponent made some poor decisions, as he chose to double FOW a turn 1 delver (I won the roll, land, delver, he FOW's, I Daze, he FOW's again - okay, you can have a mull to 3). He has a mana-heavy draw game 2.

12-Post; 1-1 matches, 2-2 games.
The first time I played against this deck, I was absolutely blownout. He was able to hit his land drops while I built an army of graveyard-dependent creatures (DRS, Nimble, Goyf). I was attacking into him and had him on a 2-turn clock. He drops Bojuka Bog, which I Stifle. I attack him down to 7, with lethal on the board, adding a Goyf (my board is DRS, threshed NM, threshed NM, and Goyf). He drops Vesuva, copying Bojuka Bog - there goes my graveyard. He then casts Trinket Mage for Tormod's Crypt, nuking his own graveyard. My once proud army becomes a 1/2, 1/1, 1/1, and 0/1, with his 2/2 Trinket Mage ruling the board. I don't draw any burn and he cast Primeval Titan the next game and I scoop.
In the games that I won, I was able to use Stifle an Expedition Map and Wasteland to buy time before slowly dwindling his life total. Glimmerpost hurts, as it buys extra turns, and thus, extra land drops. I boarded in Ancient Grudge in this match-up, as there were plenty of targets. He ran Pithing Needle main (which I needed to FOW game 1) and he also ran Oblivion Stone, along with Candelabra, Expedition Map, and the Trinket Mage package, which I assume included Chalice of the Void.

Elves; 2-0 matches, 4-1 games.
Grafdigger's Cage saved my butt, as he had Natural Order in hand. GDC does a great job neutering GSZ and NO. Delvers are key in this match-up, as the ground crew doesn't do much except for blocking. In both of my rounds against Elves, they boarded in Thoughtseize, which I though was odd. Personally, I don't think that the deck diluting is worth it, but I'm not a master Elves pilot. Two of my wins were very close, with needing Delvers to blind flip or else face death - nail bitters. I also tried boarding in Dazes on the play, as I think that the tempo boost can be worthwhile - I removed Stifles and an extra Mongoose. However, Stifle can be helpful in targeting Craterhoof's cip ability.

RUG; 0-1 matches, 0-2 games.
The first game, he won the roll and just outdrew me. He hit 3 Goyfs with minimal cantripping, which was just too much for me to handle. In game two (which I reviewed via video playback), I made some poor sequencing choices and allowed him to block my un-threshed Goose with his unflipped Delver, which was a poor decision, in retrospect. Had I sequenced more optimally, I'm certain that I could have forced a game 3.

Bant Enchantress; 0-1 matches; 1-2 games
This match-up ran the RiP, Energy Field, Helm combo with Emrakul as a back-up plan. He was running at least 3 RiP main, which just neutered my army. Game 3, he dropped 2 Carpet of Flowers, which I chose to battle over because he was stuck on one Forest. Anyhow, he pulls out of it before I can apply enough pressure and I die to tentacle monster. The new legends rule also helps him out as he can use two Serra's Sanctums per turn.

High Tide; 1-0 matches; 2-0 games.
He gets stuck on land in game 2 and I am able to Flusterstorm his cantrips to keep him locked on 1 land (I had another Flusterstorm in hand and it was clear that he was digging for land).

My thoughts/comments about the deck. Overall, it was very smooth, although I had good draws for the most part (only needed to mulligan a handful of times). This deck does surprisingly well against combo and midrange, although falters against slower decks if it cannot run enough tempo and does not find an early beater. I did have trouble finding black during the burn match-up. I like fdiv_bug's suggestion of swapping a Volcanic Island for a Badlands, and I might try that, but I'm wary of having too many non-Island lands.

This deck is extremely susceptible to graveyard hate, and cards like RiP mean that we only have 4 creatures that have the potential of greater than 1 power. For that reason, I will be looking to broaden the threat-base (TNN) or increase the Abrupt Decay count.

In any case, I feel that this deck is finely tuned and does have a great game-plan against most, if not all, of the top-tier decks. The sideboard advice in the primer is very much appreciated. I tried some variations, like leaving in Daze versus Elves (which I did not like) and bringing in Ancient Grudge vs. Twelve Post, and generally, I think that the sideboard options are very solid. I'm looking forward to playing against more of the creature-based decks, like Death and Taxes and Maverick. I would also like to play against the mid-range/control match-up, in either Esper and/or Miracles.

Thanks a lot for the kind words :)

Having more threats that are not susceptible to gravehard hate is always nice. We have the same problem versus RIP as RUG does. That is why our Spell Snares are gold-lettered in these matchups. I do not think that upping the Decay count will help. Once RIP hits it is very hard for our Goyfs or Mongeese to become strong fast enough even if we destroy RIP. We need to counter it or Stifle the trigger if we have reached Thresh. A 14th creature from the board that dodges graveyard hate is fine. Play Clique or TNN or (as Carsten Linden and I suggest) Ashiok. All of these options are fine. Golgari Charm from the board answeres a resolved RIP, too, but I think you already know that :)

Btw, versus 12-Post try this boarding if you like:

//Turbo Eldrazi/12-Post
//- 3 Snare - 1 Goyf - 2 Mongoose - 1 Bolt+ 2 ReB + 3 Fluster + 1
Loam + 1 Grudge


Rgarding the Cage it comes down to a meta choice: If you think you might run into some tempo mirrors, Nihil Spellbomb is the better grave hate. If you feel that Eleves is a hard matchup and will be played frequently in your meta Cage is a better option. The latter is better versus Dredge, too. I jut do not feel that Surgical Extraction is another option as it only helps randomly against combo. But in that matchup we do not need that much help. We need strong grave hate versus the hard matchups.

[fdiv_bug]

Hey, good finish mate :)

Thanks! :smile:


Regarding the Badlands versus Volcanic Island topic: With Taiga and Badlands we will have more often situations where land and cantrip in the opener is a direct mulligan if the land is Taiga, Wasteland or Badlands. With Badlands the odds are far highter to take a mulligan. Therefore I would never play more than one non-blue dual in bUrg.

This certainly was a factor on Sunday, as I had to mulligan at least two hands because there was a Taiga or a Badlands in the opener. Obviously the former will happen from time to time, but if the latter had been a Volcanic Island then I likely would have kept the 7. Maybe I'll toss in an 8th fetch, as you mentioned, and see if I like that; I can always fall back on the accepted wisdom if it doesn't work for me.

And as always, I appreciate the feedback and open discussion. This isn't the type of deck you can throw together and turn sideways until you wind up in the winner's circle, but it certainly gives you all the tools you need to get yourself there, and this thread with all its contributors helps me get better at doing that.

[Tormod]

I swapped my 3rd main deck Goyf for a TNN, not sure I'll stick with this change because I really do like the 3rd goyf. I may swap the 4th mongoose instead. That would give me another body for the rancor plan post board.

TNN cannot race or defend against a Rancored Goyf.

I'm on the 2 Golgari Charm plan vs TNN and anticipation of the rise of Stoneblade and a greater presence of supreme verdict to fight TNN decks.

Coincidently, I've been feeling that the deck needs an 8th fetch to help set up threshold more easily, but I don't want to go to 19 lands... yet

[Sasan]

Thanks! :smile:



This certainly was a factor on Sunday, as I had to mulligan at least two hands because there was a Taiga or a Badlands in the opener. Obviously the former will happen from time to time, but if the latter had been a Volcanic Island then I likely would have kept the 7. Maybe I'll toss in an 8th fetch, as you mentioned, and see if I like that; I can always fall back on the accepted wisdom if it doesn't work for me.

And as always, I appreciate the feedback and open discussion. This isn't the type of deck you can throw together and turn sideways until you wind up in the winner's circle, but it certainly gives you all the tools you need to get yourself there, and this thread with all its contributors helps me get better at doing that.

If it were not for REBS and the fear to lose the tempo mirros because of Stifles I would play most certainly with 8 fetches. But it is close call. I think it is very acceptable to cut a Volcanic for a fetch.

And you are right about your assumption that playing bUrg needs a lot of skill. bUrg is perhaps the most complicated non-combo deck. But with tight play we can win versus nearly every deck. But we do not have auto-win matchups like Goblins have regarding to Miracles. Every win is hard work and mistakes/sloppy play is forbidden. So after a 9-rounf tournament one always needs a break :D

[Sasan]

I swapped my 3rd main deck Goyf for a TNN, not sure I'll stick with this change because I really do like the 3rd goyf. I may swap the 4th mongoose instead. That would give me another body for the rancor plan post board.

TNN cannot race or defend against a Rancored Goyf.

I'm on the 2 Golgari Charm plan vs TNN and anticipation of the rise of Stoneblade and a greater presence of supreme verdict to fight TNN decks.

Coincidently, I've been feeling that the deck needs an 8th fetch to help set up threshold more easily, but I don't want to go to 19 lands... yet

Then perhaps you can try cutting one Volcanic for the 4th Tarn. With your 3 Goyf plan it is ok to cut one for a Nemesis. I would never cut a onedrop for a 3-drop (Mongoose for TNN).

[Tormod]

Then perhaps you can try cutting one Volcanic for the 4th Tarn. With your 3 Goyf plan it is ok to cut one for a Nemesis. I would never cut a onedrop for a 3-drop (Mongoose for TNN).

i agree that swapping a goose for a nemesis doesn't seem optimal. but since we have 10 other 1 drops it might a worthwhile to give it a go since its a hard to remove threat that isnt grave yard dependent.

I'm still theory crafting on that one.

[Sasan]

http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-1-rug-deckbuilding-theory/

Here is a recent and good article that explains why RUG Delver is not the best deck in legacy anymore. Tomorrow the blog will continue with discussing bUrg. Let us see what will be said concerning our deck ;-).

Although the article is great I must say that the boarding plans provided there are somehow flawed (boarding out Stifles versus Esper Blade and Miracles? What?). So do not take the boarding plans for granted. Stick with the plans in the primer ;-).

Regarding the discussion of cutting one Snare for extra removal: The article let me remember the awesome tech Magma Spray. It is a great great creature removal card at instant speed that can deal with Ichorids and Veteran Explorer as a bonus. Again a good secret tech.

Personally, I will still play 3 Snares as we already have a good amount of removal spells (6). RUG Delver only plays with 5. As Snare "removes" many many creatures it is already a removal spell in disguise :D

[fdiv_bug]

http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-1-rug-deckbuilding-theory/

Here is a recent and good article that explains why RUG Delver is not the best deck in legacy anymore. Tomorrow the blog will continue with discussing bUrg. Let us see what will be said concerning our deck ;-).

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's post!

[sherko7]

Funny you said that, Sasan. Yesterday at a 22-person weekly at my friendly local game store I ran the same main as sherko7, but with a Badlands in place of the second Volcanic Island (which I'll discuss a little below), and I became annoyed at least once over the course of 5 rounds because I couldn't use Sorcery-speed Forked Bolt to pull combat tricks. I do agree that the two-for-one potential of the card is very high right now, but I've swapped it with a Fire // Ice to preserve that aspect, while giving me Instant speed and pitching to Force of Will like the Spell Snare it replaced. I'll have to see with testing whether the one additional mana to cast Fire versus Forked Bolt is a major hindrance, and I have no idea if Ice will ever come in handy.

Regarding the Badlands over the second Volcanic Island, it occurred to me that at least one of our turn-one plays -- Nimble Mongoose -- would require green out of the gate, ideally with a Tropical Island for Daze support. Therefore, in order to be able to cast Abrupt Decay on turn two should the need arise, as well as get our fourth color online with only two lands in play, the next land would need to be a Badlands. A turn one Volcanic Island is suboptimal because it won't let us cast Abrupt Decay on turn two, nor can we have all four colors online turn two unless we added a Bayou, which still wouldn't help us cast the Decay. The only thing I dislike about the Badlands is it can't be fetched with a Misty Rainforest, requiring me to flip the Rainforest/Tarn split to 3 of the former and 4 of the latter. I know this topic has been discussed before, both in the primer and in the thread, and I'm not looking to dig up any old grudges, but that's my reasoning for the change. If there are things I have overlooked or angles I failed to consider, please bring them up. :)

I also had the chance to play against True-Name Nemesis in two of the rounds, both times in Shardless BUG. Those two rounds were the only ones I lost, and I only lost them because of TNN. It's my opinion that printing that card was a bad idea, not because it's an unstoppable blowout (which it can be if you haven't specifically built to hate it and cards like it), but because it's simply not a fun way to lose. I was running the stock sideboard, but with the frustration of losing two very un-fun rounds, along with the strong performance of the card at SCG Dallas yesterday, I think I'm going to up the Golgari Charm count in the board to two, or possibly swap it with Toxic Deluge. I don't know what I'd want to drop to make room for either, though, so I'm open to any and all suggestions. I think that TNN is going to be out in force at Grand Prix Washington D.C. next weekend, and I'd like to make sure we have the best answers available, so let's discuss!

Other than the problem posed by TNN, a problem which affects everybody, I think this is an awesome deck with plenty of answers and opportunities to reward tight play, and I'm really looking forward to running it in DC.

I am convinced with Forked Bolt. I don't think I'll ever swap it with Snare ever again. The possible 2-for-1's is worth playing sorcery speed removal, and I find myself often using instant speed removal during my main phases anyway (Against DRS, MoM, etc...).

Regarding Badlands, the only reason I'll probably add it to the deck is to make DRS more consistent at shooting people. I think Tropical Island + Badlands is strictly better with DRS in play than U. Sea + Taiga. The "tempo loss" at not being able to activate DRS because you used the Sea to cast Snare is just sad.


Although I think that your list will do fine, I strongly believe that you need some shroud/hexproof creatures in that build. The reason why UR Delver never took of was the fact that they never had shroud creatures and therefore lacked constiency - now they have TNN ;-).

I never said that Young Pyromancer is bad in bUrg. But I stated that the card needs to be a 4-off and therefore there is no space for him. The fact that we play rather reactive spells and not much burn, Therepies or Probes was a problem, too. And Goyf is always a better topdeck. Therefore YP in bUrg is meh and Goyf is always ok or striclty better - especially as a game-ending 2-off bomb. But feel free to try YP. Even some RUG lists use him to a certain degree ;-).

I think YP fits the Mongoose role quite fine. Both cards need global removal to be rid of. I do understand the merits of Goose, as I've rode him to more victories than I did with Delver really. I'd have to test more though, my current list just doesn't perform as well as I'd have imagined. :laugh:

[fdiv_bug]

Regarding Badlands, the only reason I'll probably add it to the deck is to make DRS more consistent at shooting people. I think Tropical Island + Badlands is strictly better with DRS in play than U. Sea + Taiga. The "tempo loss" at not being able to activate DRS because you used the Sea to cast Snare is just sad.

That's a good point and something I hadn't thought of.

[Tormod]

Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.

I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.

Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?

[lavafrogg]

Sasan, you are rediculous. I am finding posts in comments around the internet of you defending bUrg. You rock.

[Sasan]

Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.

I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.

Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?

I think that running 19 lands - one more than RUG - with a deck that has Shamans is wrong. We only have 29 Spells as we play 13 creatures and with a 19th land the spell count is 28 and the Delver blind flip rate is weakened. I know that some people say that you only need 25 spells to flip Delver but I want a real high chance of flipping him and do not want to waste a cantrip for that.


So You should play 18 lands and it can only be Taiga or Badlands. Both choices are understandable. I want to be able to cast creatures without blue lands, therefore Taiga rules.


Florian Koch states the following and I cannot agree more on that:

"The mana base is probably just what you would expect from this deck. Some people have inquired about Taiga, as that one is so bad in RUG Delver. The Taiga can still be annoying, but it is necessary as it’s often critical to have all colors available with just two lands. If you take into account that you want to be able to cast Abrupt Decay with these two lands, then there are just two options. Either you have Taiga in your deck and go for Taiga plus Underground Sea, or you add Badlands and go for Badlands plus Tropical Island. However, the Taiga variant is much more desirable than Badlands as you can cast all 14 non-blue spells with Taiga instead of just 9 with Badlands. Ergo Taiga is a bad land, but Badlands is worse."

If you want more black sources cut a Volcanic for another Underground Sea. I already stated that 3 red sources might be too much in bUrg although we must see if REBs become utterly important in the TNN meta. An 8th fetch might work, too. And a secret tech of some RUG Delver players is to have a 19th land for tempo mirrors in the SB. For mana demanding matchups that could work, too. Although I would love to see a basic island in the sideboard for more reliance. But as the mana base is rock solid in bUrg it is not that much needed.

[Sasan]

Sasan, you are rediculous. I am finding posts in comments around the internet of you defending bUrg. You rock.

Hey thanks ;) I am already on the train to tell Drew Levin about bUrg as his Delver primer in the premium section that he just released is so awful. He proposes to play RUG Delver with 2 Volcanic Islands (!!!) and 4 (!!!) Spell Pierces. He states that Probes are not good in RUG and plays a one-off Probe. probes should be played at a number of 3-4 or zero ;). OK that was a bit off-topic. But if you have Premium read that article and watch the videos where he has no plan how to sideboard :)

[TheKingslayer]

Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.

I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.

Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?

Drop the second volcanic island. It's the one land you least need in multiples, and the static-present lands you want to fetch are u sea and trop anyway. Eight fetchlands allows for optimal decisions and options of choosing which lands you want. As well, when I tried running 19 lands, I always felt the extra land... and it hurt with it not being another counter. So, try testing with one Volcanic and one Badlands or Taiga.

[Tormod]

I sucked tonight.

R1 vs UR Delver burn (goblin guide, chain lightnings)
3 grindy games that went to time. By the end of turn 5 of extra turns, I had a Delver and Deathrite, against lands.
At my shop we prize X-1 so my opponent a regular scooped to me.
1-0

R2 vs RUG Delver
Was against a really good player, last time we played was in the 1/4 finals of a GTP.
Kicked my butt 2-0. (I ran a True-Name Nemesis for kicks in place of Goyf 3) I also ran a toxic Deluge in place of Golgari Charm 2, it got stuck in my hand. if i cast it to kill my opponents goyf, it would have killed me. Cutting both.
1-1

R3 vs Miracle (helm combo)
I got paired down to my opponent who was 0-1-1 and he scooped to me. We played for funsies, and I won game 1, I lost game 2 and 3 to helm combo. Admitted, I made play mistakes, I resolved a Notion Theif against a Jace brainstorm, but that was after my play mistake which cost me the game. I had Notion Thief and a shaman with my opponent 4 life. But the turn before I should have wastelanded his 4th land after he cast Jace, but I allowed him to untap and play a land and a batterskull.
2-1 (yeah weird)

R4 vs Dark Maverick with Thespian Stage, Dark Depths combo.
I got paired down to my opponent who was 1-2 and he scooped to me too. I lost in 2 games. Notables are getting hit by a Bojuka Bog. Attacking instead of blocking when my opponent had a jitte with 0 counters on it. I had toxlc deluge and fire covenant stuck in my hand, when they showed up using them would have killed me against an 8/8 knight. I cast True-Name this match, to have my opponent enlighten tutor for engineered plague.
3-1

So despite actually winning any of my match ups I prize. I could say it wasn't my day, that I didn't draw well. But simply my head wasn't in it and I made a lot of mistakes.

But the notes I come out with is:
-The mana was fine, it never affected the outcome of my matches.
-Toxic Deluge wasn't good for me
-True-Name Nemesis sucked for me main deck
-I want a 3rd abrupt decay somewhere.
-I've won games with Fire Covenant, but there's times it really sucked to draw.

[Sasan]

I sucked tonight.

R1 vs UR Delver burn (goblin guide, chain lightnings)
3 grindy games that went to time. By the end of turn 5 of extra turns, I had a Delver and Deathrite, against lands.
At my shop we prize X-1 so my opponent a regular scooped to me.
1-0

R2 vs RUG Delver
Was against a really good player, last time we played was in the 1/4 finals of a GTP.
Kicked my butt 2-0. (I ran a True-Name Nemesis for kicks in place of Goyf 3) I also ran a toxic Deluge in place of Golgari Charm 2, it got stuck in my hand. if i cast it to kill my opponents goyf, it would have killed me. Cutting both.
1-1

R3 vs Miracle (helm combo)
I got paired down to my opponent who was 0-1-1 and he scooped to me. We played for funsies, and I won game 1, I lost game 2 and 3 to helm combo. Admitted, I made play mistakes, I resolved a Notion Theif against a Jace brainstorm, but that was after my play mistake which cost me the game. I had Notion Thief and a shaman with my opponent 4 life. But the turn before I should have wastelanded his 4th land after he cast Jace, but I allowed him to untap and play a land and a batterskull.
2-1 (yeah weird)

R4 vs Dark Maverick with Thespian Stage, Dark Depths combo.
I got paired down to my opponent who was 1-2 and he scooped to me too. I lost in 2 games. Notables are getting hit by a Bojuka Bog. Attacking instead of blocking when my opponent had a jitte with 0 counters on it. I had toxlc deluge and fire covenant stuck in my hand, when they showed up using them would have killed me against an 8/8 knight. I cast True-Name this match, to have my opponent enlighten tutor for engineered plague.
3-1

So despite actually winning any of my match ups I prize. I could say it wasn't my day, that I didn't draw well. But simply my head wasn't in it and I made a lot of mistakes.

But the notes I come out with is:
-The mana was fine, it never affected the outcome of my matches.
-Toxic Deluge wasn't good for me
-True-Name Nemesis sucked for me main deck
-I want a 3rd abrupt decay somewhere.
-I've won games with Fire Covenant, but there's times it really sucked to draw.

Yeah we already stated that TNN is not a maindeck card :) What mana base did you play? A third decay can be played in the board or instead of the third Spell Snare.

And keep up the good work :)

[jeanbathez]

So now the deck dets more public : article on starcitygames : http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27339_GRUB-A-Dub-Dub-Stifle-You-Bub.html
Because i'am at work i can't read it atm. I think Sasan is namedropped, but he seems to diagree in a few Points, have to read it at home.

[Sasan]

Drop the second volcanic island. It's the one land you least need in multiples, and the static-present lands you want to fetch are u sea and trop anyway. Eight fetchlands allows for optimal decisions and options of choosing which lands you want. As well, when I tried running 19 lands, I always felt the extra land... and it hurt with it not being another counter. So, try testing with one Volcanic and one Badlands or Taiga.

Ok let us be mathematical here:

In our maindecks we have 4 cards that need red (Bolts) and 3 that need black from time to time (Shaman - although the green ability is not often used, Shaman is a mana dork for the first few turns). 2 cards need black for removal (Decay). You need the Bolts ready asap and Shaman does not need black mana asap. But black is needed more times during a game wheres you probably just need red occasionally. It is a tie between black and red here.

So let us look at the sideboard: Fire Covenants are black and red so they do not count. Ashiok and Charm need black. REBs and Grudge need red. So we have a 2:3 ratio. So with this maindeck and sideboard we need just a little bit more red than black. But it is a close one.

Compare these numbers to green: We have 11 main deck cards that need green - as Shaman can be cast of an USea we can say 6 - and 2 sideboard cards. The main deck green creature cards are our win condition except for Delver. With these numbers it should be clear that we need as much green dual lands as possible. So 3 is a fine number. Green is our second most important colour after blue.

But do we need 3 duals that produce red? The same amount as the green ones? And is black that far behind in the color race to be left with only two duals?

With cutting one Volcanic for another fetch we have upped the black count virtually by one and the red count is the same. Only versus Dnt it can beome a problem as they can cut you of a color with Ports and Wastes. But your game breaking Charm and Fire Covenants ask at least for the same number of black duals. So if they could not cut you off black in the past, they won't achieve that with red.

So after thoroughful thinking I say: Let us go for + 1 Fetch - 1 Volcanic. We can reach Thresh faster then. That is a huge bonus.

[Sasan]

So now the deck dets more public : article on starcitygames : http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27339_GRUB-A-Dub-Dub-Stifle-You-Bub.html
Because i'am at work i can't read him atm. I think Sasan is namedropped, but he seems to diagree in a few Points, have to read it at home.

I must read that article now but the decklist he presents seems wrong.

[Sasan]

Ok after reading I posted in the comments of the article. I invited Glenn to join the thread and discuss his list with us. I think that his TNN approach is not right - but we covered that already and tested the card thoroughly.

[Tormod]

Yeah we already stated that TNN is not a maindeck card :) What mana base did you play? A third decay can be played in the board or instead of the third Spell Snare.

And keep up the good work :)

I played 2 seas, 2 volcs, 2 trops, 1 taiga, 7 fetches + 4 wasteland. (standard land package)

These are my changes:
Maindeck:
I swapped out the True-Name Nemesis back for the 3rd Goyf (I really noticed the absence of the 3rd, I think 3 works well I'm my meta)

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Vendilion Clique

[Sasan]

The record of semi-good articles continues :D

http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-2-burg-bug/

Do not take that for granted what Jona states :) Carsten and I hardly lose to the tempo mirror. So the statement that bUrg loses to tempo decks is not true. The assumption that Jund beats bUrg is not true at all - it is the best tempo deck against midrange.

[sherko7]

That's a good point and something I hadn't thought of.

Yeah, it is a point I feel we need to discuss more. It happens to me a lot. In a deck likr bUrg that wants to win before our opponents can stabilize, I feel like upping the efficiency of DRS is really worth it.


Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.

I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.

Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?

Given the issue, I would still not add a second non blue dual. play Taiga OR Badlands, not both.


I think that running 19 lands - one more than RUG - with a deck that has Shamans is wrong. We only have 29 Spells as we play 13 creatures and with a 19th land the spell count is 28 and the Delver blind flip rate is weakened. I know that some people say that you only need 25 spells to flip Delver but I want a real high chance of flipping him and do not want to waste a cantrip for that.


So You should play 18 lands and it can only be Taiga or Badlands. Both choices are understandable. I want to be able to cast creatures without blue lands, therefore Taiga rules.


Florian Koch states the following and I cannot agree more on that:

"The mana base is probably just what you would expect from this deck. Some people have inquired about Taiga, as that one is so bad in RUG Delver. The Taiga can still be annoying, but it is necessary as itÂ’s often critical to have all colors available with just two lands. If you take into account that you want to be able to cast Abrupt Decay with these two lands, then there are just two options. Either you have Taiga in your deck and go for Taiga plus Underground Sea, or you add Badlands and go for Badlands plus Tropical Island. However, the Taiga variant is much more desirable than Badlands as you can cast all 14 non-blue spells with Taiga instead of just 9 with Badlands. Ergo Taiga is a bad land, but Badlands is worse."

If you want more black sources cut a Volcanic for another Underground Sea. I already stated that 3 red sources might be too much in bUrg although we must see if REBs become utterly important in the TNN meta. An 8th fetch might work, too. And a secret tech of some RUG Delver players is to have a 19th land for tempo mirrors in the SB. For mana demanding matchups that could work, too. Although I would love to see a basic island in the sideboard for more reliance. But as the mana base is rock solid in bUrg it is not that much needed.

Definitely gonna try -1 Volc +1 fetch first simply because I do not have Deltas atm for Badlands.:tongue:

[thefringthing]

How crazy am I: Werebear?

[sherko7]

How crazy am I: Werebear?
I lol'd. I guess of you don't have Goyfs, Werebear's the best sub.:tongue:

[cheerios]

Hey thanks ;) I am already on the train to tell Drew Levin about bUrg as his Delver primer in the premium section that he just released is so awful. He proposes to play RUG Delver with 2 Volcanic Islands (!!!) and 4 (!!!) Spell Pierces. He states that Probes are not good in RUG and plays a one-off Probe. probes should be played at a number of 3-4 or zero ;). OK that was a bit off-topic. But if you have Premium read that article and watch the videos where he has no plan how to sideboard :)

I wouldn't trust Drew Levin when it comes to RUG. If I remember correctly, he suggested cutting the stifles before.

[Sasan]

I wouldn't trust Drew Levin when it comes to RUG. If I remember correctly, he suggested cutting the stifles before.

Yep that is right. He is not playing the archetype that often.

[sherko7]

I never really understood why he hated Stifles that much. I'll look for his article on it when I get home. Anyway, I almost never hold up Stufle T1 on the play unless I'm keeping a one lander or if my one drop is Goose. Watcha think?:smile:.

[Sasan]

That is reasonale as developing pressure on the play is great. But if I am paired to a bad matchup I would hold Stifle and hope that I can get a free win by sinkholing the opponent ;-)

[sherko7]

On Glenn Jones' article, he really makes a good argument about a few issues with the deck. But is it true that a lot of European RUG players started losing after making the switch? :tongue:

Fire//Ice over the 2nd Abrupt Decay seems okay. I haven't let go of my 2nd A.D., but if I do I'd probably swap in Fire // Ice as well.

More U. Sea + Taiga VS Trops + Badlands argument. If only I had Deltas I'd make the switch in a heartbeat.:tongue:

Although I'm pretty grateful to Taiga. Last tourney, I won versus Junk with a resolved Choke by fetching Taiga and playing Gooses + Bolts. Managed to break a KotR after drawing a fetchland (he had Urborg in play). I would have died a miserable death if I had Badlands instead.

[Sasan]

No we did not start losing. I do not know where he takes his insights ;-).

Fire/Ice handles far less spells than Decay. Decaying a Counterbalance, Chalice,Aether Vial, Goyf etc. is huuuge:-)

[sherko7]

So I just came home from a local charity tourney (all proceeds to be donated to the victims of the super typhoon Haiyan) and finished 2-2. 20 players competed for a foil Misty Rainforest and a GP Hong Kong playmat.

R1 - Sneak Show (0-2)

Done in 2 games. This was just bad. G1 I mull'd to 4 and ended up with 2 Wasteland 1 Goyf 1 Ponder. He went T2 Griselbrand and I scooped. G2, a misplay on my part ended the game. After Daze-ing his T2 SnT (off of City of Traitors) I played the Trops again to Ponder instead of Wasteland-ing him. T3 he played Ponder, Lotus Petal, Fetchland (floating 2 of course), SnT. I Force'd, he Flusterstorm'd off of Petal ftw.

0-1-0

R2 - MUD (2-1)

G1 - T1 Delver and hoped for the best. I already knew he was playing MUD, so when I lost the roll I knew I was in for trouble. My opener had no FoW, just 1 land and Wasteland plus cantrips and Delver. Luckily no Chalice on his T1. He managed to drop a T3 Batterskull of of Grim Monolith that met no resistance. He dropped me down to 4 with Lodestone + Batterskull. A bolt on Lodestone and the dropping a Goyf (5/6) meant I could stall him while Delver did his thing. Won that one.

G2 - A 2nd Metalworker (I had Bolt'd the first) meant he would be having no mana issues whatsoever. Voltaic Key + Kuldotha fetching Greaves and Blightsteel ended the game quickly.

G3 - This was a close one, but T1 Delver meant all I needed was to delay him. Luckily, bUrg went bonkers and manascrewed him with Wastelands. He had a T3 Chalice for 1 (I had FoW'd the T2 Chalice) but that couldn't stop Delver who had already dealt him 6. Dropped a Goyf on T4 and proceeded to end the game there.

1-1-0

R3 - DNT (0-2)

This was my testing buddy. Mull to 4 on G1, 'nuf said. G2 I had Decay'd his Vial and left him manascrewed after 2 Wastes. Goyf had him down to 6 but he was able to topdeck lands and managed to stall me. A few turns later he has Batterskull, Jitte, SofI, SFM, Revoker (on DRS) and Thalia and play and that was that.

1-2-0

R4 - Bant Maverick (2-1)

G1 - Double Stifle and double Wasteland meant my opponent couldn't play the game, especially since he decided to StP my DRS. I won with T2 Delver going all the way.

G2 - He managed to get a Vendillion Clique equipped with a SofI. I made a mistake of Bolting a T1 Noble Hierarch. I started digging for removal but to no avail. GG.

G3 - Close game here. I managed to Submerge an SFM in response to the SFM trigger and then later on Submerged a KotR in response to him searching for a land off of it. GG there. Goose did all the work here as he exhausted his StP's on my Delver and Goyf. Later on he managed to GSZ an Ooze. I BS'd for a DRS and with him having only 1 green source, that was the game right there.

2-2-0

Overall pretty happy with how the deck performed. Here's the list I played:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Disfigure
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

I tried cutting the Forked Bolt for the Disfigure. It was meh. They both have their merits but since I was cutting a Volc, I imagined I'd be trying to fetch red less and decided to go Disfigure. There was a total of 2 times in the tourney where I was thankful I drew it instead of Forked Bolt and both were not related to mana restrictions.

The Surgical Extraction was because I was expecting Reanimator and Dredge. True enough they were there, but I wasn't able to play them. I might swap the Nihil Spellbomb for Gafdigger's Cage sometime soon. Cage really has a lot more applications, and I don't think I'd need another Goose killer, DRS should do fine. :tongue:

P.S. Added Sasan on Facebook LOL

[lavafrogg]

No we did not start losing. I do not know where he takes his insights ;-).

Fire/Ice anderes far less spells than Decay. Decaying a Counterbalance, Chalice,Aether Vial, Goyf etc. is huuuge:-)

What has changed to stop the winning?

[Sasan]

The win/loss-rate is
good with that deck, it is really better than Canadian :-)

[Lemnear]

The win/loss-rate is
good with that deck, it is really better than Canadian :-)

How was todays tourney?

[Tormod]

I've made a deviation in 'the plan' that I'm going to test out. I run 3 goyfs, it seem to work well in the Toronto Meta.

Main:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
7 Fetches

Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrobast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rakdos Charm

notes: i've been wanting to add spell pierce and the 3rd spell snare to the deck. after seeing Owen Turtenwald win GPDC and seeing zero copies of stifle in his deck, it gave me the idea that those could be the slots that i use. After seeing GP and what a pain it was to deal with True-Name, I wanted to go to 3 redblast effects and 2 golgari charm. I added the rakdos charm as another way to interact with artifacts. True Name is good, but its equipment that sends it over the edge. It has the side benefit of being a 2nd piece of graveyard hate. I doubt the deal damage for every creature you have will be relevant, but it might be good vs elves, death and taxes, lingering souls, a bunch of tokens. Its probably more cute that good and likely better as another grudge. I like having a 3rd abrupt in the side, because there are matches where i just want more. The addition of True Name in the board can play a strong defensive role, almost justifying its spot in removal for its ability to deny your opponent from attacking.

[Sasan]

I've made a deviation in 'the plan' that I'm going to test out. I run 3 goyfs, it seem to work well in the Toronto Meta.

Main:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
7 Fetches

Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrobast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rakdos Charm

notes: i've been wanting to add spell pierce and the 3rd spell snare to the deck. after seeing Owen Turtenwald win GPDC and seeing zero copies of stifle in his deck, it gave me the idea that those could be the slots that i use. After seeing GP and what a pain it was to deal with True-Name, I wanted to go to 3 redblast effects and 2 golgari charm. I added the rakdos charm as another way to interact with artifacts. True Name is good, but its equipment that sends it over the edge. It has the side benefit of being a 2nd piece of graveyard hate. I doubt the deal damage for every creature you have will be relevant, but it might be good vs elves, death and taxes, lingering souls, a bunch of tokens. Its probably more cute that good and likely better as another grudge. I like having a 3rd abrupt in the side, because there are matches where i just want more. The addition of True Name in the board can play a strong defensive role, almost justifying its spot in removal for its ability to deny your opponent from attacking.

Your list would be perfect if it would not lack Stifle. You know we have a tricky manabase that does not always work out. That is why we need Stifle to protect ourselves from opposing Wastelands :)

[Sasan]

Perhaps you noticed that I did not post a lot the last few days. The reason was that I watched the meta game shifts and wanted to change the deck to be good in the future meta. Even at my local tournament on Saturday that is slow to meta game changes, nearly every one played True-Name Nemesis. I was beaten brutally by Nemesis. In the first 3 rounds out of seven I ran into 6 (!!!) cast copies of TNN - some were countered, some were removed but it is bad to be hit by the second copy as many people run 3-4 Nemesis - at least after boarding. I dropped after 3 rounds as it was no fun and went home and brainstormed/tested for the rest of the weekend how bUrg can handle that situation. The GP DC and the strong showings of TNN will make the hype to continue.

My testings show that 3 Rebs and 2 Golgari Charms reliably fight TNN. That is why we need drastic sideboard changes. Ashiok was cute but I wanted to streamline things and have just a solid, flexible sideboard without experiments.

With TNN our Goyfs and Mongeese - the latter more than the former - became weaker. Delver and Shaman are now our most important creatures due to the evasion they provide. We need to protect them better. As Snare does not handle Nemesis and does not proect our creatures *and* is weak to the popular Sneak and Show decks, we need Spell Pierce to return to your main decks.

As we need our Forces and Dazes to answer Nemesis more spot removal is needed for other creatures hitting the ground.

Ladies and Gentlemen let me introduce you to "New bUrg":



Deck: Sasan's new bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:12
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Piere
1 Izzet Charm
1 Dismember
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tropical Island




Why do we run only 3 Mongeese? The meta has shifted towards True-Name Nemesis as the most played "hard-to-kill" creature. As Nemesis can block and kill Mongoose our little hero has become weaker. With only 7 fetchlands and no Probes Mongoose does not reach Thresh that fast. As the number of Decay decks has declined, it is not hurting ourselves to run only 3 Mongeese. Playing 3 Mongeese can give us the opportunity to run 12 creatures - 13 always felt clunky as we had to cut important spells.

Spell Snare *was* a good meta call. Spell Snare is a hard counter that can interact with all key spells of all decks to beat (Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, Burning Wish, Punishing Fire, Chalice of the Void on one, Rest in Peace, Stoneforge Msytic). Spell Pierce is more flexible and can protect our creatures from removal - Delver and Shaman became more important in the True-Name Nemesis meta as we must overcome the wall Nemesis provides. Spell Pierce also hits many key spells and is useable versus Sneak Attack whereas Snare is a blank. That is why I would now recommend running 3 Spell Pierces in your main deck. 1 Spell Pierce is disguised as an Izzet Charm.

Izzet Charm is a fantastic card that is very flexible. It is a removal spell and a soft counter in one card. Plus it can let us reach Thresh more aggressively.

With Decays and Izzet Charm costing 2 mana each, we need another, faster removal at instant speed that can kill nearly every creature in the format. As we do not run Spell Snares and have only 2 Goyfs we want to handle opposing Goyfs. The removal spell of choice is Dismember. It is castable with nearly no drawback thanks to the lifegain ability of Shaman. Dismember can answer a Batterskull token, can handle Griselbrand with the help of one of your other removal spells etc. - it is the best creature spot removal in a tempo deck right now.

With 8 pieces of removal - including 2 that can hit artifacts and enchantments - there is no way a permanent will stay long on the opponent's battlefield.

3 Pierces handle the non-creature/non-artifact spells - planeswalkers and enchantments. That is a huge counter/removal suite besides the Forces/Dazes. With this configuration Spell Snare is not needed anymore.

Tropical Island in the sideboard: And now we come to a innovation. I must admit it: bUrg can have some moments where the mana base does not work out - especially versus opponents playing Wastelands AND Stifles/Ports. In the past I suggested you to play Loam to stabilize in those matchups. But Loam needs to man. That is why a real land is better. Tropical Island can cast our cantrip and threats and is therefore chosen. Feel free to run other lands in that spot for example Underground Sea or even a basic island. But do not run a fetch land as we need a Stifle-proof option here. The Tropical Island is boarded in versus tempo mirrors. Those matchups come down to the question who has more lands in play. Tropical Island is also boarded in versus matchups where I board out our protection suite - aka Stifle. It is awkard to know that Stifle does not have value in a matchup (GW Maverick, Merfolk) but needs to stay in to protect your mana base from opposing wastelands. So ladies and gentlemen, play a land in your sideboard. You will never ever regret it.

Hope you enjoy the new list and keep crushing your opponents.

I updated the primer and the boarding guide to reflect the changes I made in the most current build.

[lavafrogg]

The BUG lists in DC ran 3 sideboard golgari charm and 2 main board tombstalker to deal with true name nemisis. You could easily do the same thing.

[Sasan]

Thanks for your input but Tombstalker is not castable for our deck :) With access to REBs we perhaps just need 2 Charms as REBS are great for our combo matchup. BUG does not have REBS due to obvious reasons.

[Tormod]

Your list would be perfect if it would not lack Stifle. You know we have a tricky manabase that does not always work out. That is why we need Stifle to protect ourselves from opposing Wastelands :)

I'm willing to give it a go. The meta is shifting to become more midrange with True-Nemesis. Though its not the same deck, Ben Friedman and Owen Turtenwald had great finishes with UWR Delver and opted for more spell pierces over stifle.

I agree fully on the 3 redblast, 2 charms plan right now, 1 pc engineer plague might be the best tech, so that's worth considering. In my Stoneblade, I have started to run an old tech of 1 pc Llawan Cephalid Princess in the sb.

If TNN is a big concern, then perhaps 1 or main deck discard is worthy tech to explore. They could replace spell snare if you feel that snare is no longer good.

[Sasan]

Snare only handles Goyfs and Stoneforges now as the decks to beat concentrate on the cc3 cost now. That is why my most recent list is a good reaction to the meta shift. I think you can debate whether you want the third Goyf over the Dismember or not but otherwise the new bUrg list is really really strong :-)

[TheKingslayer]

Snare only handles Goyfs and Stoneforges now as the decks to beat concentrate on the cc3 cost now. That is why my most recent list is a good reaction to the meta shift. I think you can debate whether you want the third Goyf over the Dismember or not but otherwise the new bUrg list is really really strong :-)

I don't agree with getting ride of Snares, even with True-Name nemesis. I've been running Snare and Pierce together. Dropping snare is assuming batterskull and rest in peace aren't problems just beause Nemesis is a thing. As well, I feel it is important to run 4 deathrite shaman now more than ever to circumvent Nemesis's infinite blocking ability. Deathrite is already a lightning rod, but he also helps incredibly in the tempo mirror (you won't have to waste a slot on an extra land.) I don't think 2 Tarmogoyfs are necessary. I've been playing BURG goyfless for quite some time, and it has been functioning incredibly well. I also feel having 7 fetchlands makes the deck less consistent.

Here is my list for now:

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose


Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancient grudge
1 Life from the Loam


I'm contemplating dropping a goose for my own nemesis, but I haven't had an opportunity to test it yet. I've also been alternating between badlands and Taiga for the reasons stated earlier in the thread. I was running a troll aescetic for a while, but dropped him in favor of another golgari charm. As well, running 4 deathrites warrants the need for utilizing them as threats.

[Tormod]

I'm with King Slayer on this one really don't agree on dropping Spell Snare, maybe dropping to 2, copies maybe but its so good. Maybe my meta is not as sensitive. Regarding the 3 drop slot, meaning TNN, we have really good answers in our board.

I think 2 Nemesis belong in the 75 along with 2 discard spells

[Sasan]

You can run 2 Snares instead of Dismember and Izzet. I think 3 is too much, especially if you cut Dazes to 3 like Kingslayer ;-).

Running Goyf-less is really a problem in the tempo mirror. But you save the slot of running an extra land in the SB. I will think about it ;-).

Running our own TNN has too much anti-synergy with Charms. We must see if we can handle TNN reliably. If no, we must play our own ones. You know, if you cannot beat them, just join them ;-)

With 4 Shaman you will automatically shrink your Mongeese if you happen to play versus aggro decks like Goblins as they are light on spells. You will need to eat the cards of your own grave.

But KingSlayer brought an idea up..I will test that. Hold on :-)

[TheKingslayer]

You can run 2 Snares instead of Dismember and Izzet. I think 3 is too much, especially if you cut Dazes to 3 like Kingslayer ;-).

Running Goyf-less is really a problem in the tempo mirror. But you save the slot of running an extra land in the SB. I will think about it ;-).

Running our own TNN has too much anti-synergy with Charms. We must see if we can handle TNN reliably. If no, we must play our own ones. You know, if you cannot beat them, just join them ;-)

With 4 Shaman you will automatically shrink your Mongeese if you happen to play versus aggro decks like Goblins as they are light on spells. You will need to eat the cards of your own grave.

But KingSlayer brought an idea up..I will test that. Hold on :-)

I hardly ever deploy more than one deathrite at a time. They usually get killed pretty quickly anyway, or I shuffle them away as I would a land.Also, their disynergy with goose very rarely arises, even with four. However, as Dark Confidant once said, "Greatness at any cost."

[Sasan]

Thanks to your feedback. I have updated the list.




Deck: Sasan's new bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique


I always felt that 4 Shamans is worth a try and have always had lists with 4 Shamans. But I never followed that route as our Mongeese become weaker with 4 Shamans. This and our only 2 black sources were the reasons. But with Nemesis our Mongeese already became weaker - I already stated that 3 is the right number now. Shaman became more imporant due to the ping abillity. With that in mind we can now run 4 Shamans. We must therefore run a fetchland more to support more black sources. That is totally fine as it helps our 3 Mongeese to reach Thresh faster and makes up a bit for the anti-synergy with Shamans. Now with 4 Shamans we can now afford some more UU spells.

That leads to the comeback of Counterspell. Yes we had that card in our very first bUrg built but felt it was too clunky. Now we can come back to that tech. Counterspells counters Nemesis. That is huuuge. Counterspell is the perfect card that can handle everything Snare and Pierce handle. That is why we can now run a split of 2 Snares, 1 Pierce and 1 Counterspell. So we have 3 Snare effects and 2 Pierce effects. That is flexible as hell and gives us more main deck answers to Nemesis.

With the possibilty to run ab it more UU spells now Nemesis becomes a real thing for our deck. With the Shaman ramp and our more stable mana base we can now play with our own one-off Nemesis that acts as Mongoose 4 - so the shroud count is the same versus Decay decks.

We now have 9 creatures with evasion from Nemesis plus more main deck answers to the nasty Merfolk. Our deck does not become that much slower without the 2 Goyfs as the ping ability of Shaman plus Mongoose/Nemesis makes 5 damage a turn. Goyf was needed as a two-off as a late game bomg to bring through the last 4-5 points of damage. As Nemesis can chump block Goyf forever that strategy is not so viable anymore. With + 1 Shaman + 1 Nemesis - 2 Goyf we can certainly make our last points of damage far more reliably in the current meta game.

With 4 Shamans we now can get rid of the Tropical Island in the sideboard and play Clique. Turn 1 Shaman into turn 2 Clique is great versus combo. Clique has flying and can grab a Nemesis of the opponent's hand.

Now the pieces chain perfectly together.

Note on the anti-synergy between our own Charms and our one-off Nemesis: That is not a problem. If we are ahead in the damage race with our Nemesis we do not cast the Charm. If we are behind we can cast it.

As we have still a really flat mana curve and much much evasion and anwers for Nemesis I think that we will have a good matchup versus Nemesis decks and are better positioned in the new meta than RUG Delver.

Thanks for Tormod and TheKingSlayer for helping me update my list. The primer and sideboard guide is now up to date with the above list.

[Lemnear]

Didn't you hit on me a few weeks before when I suggested 4 DRS to make TNN maindeckable?!? ;D

[Sasan]

You were right. Simple as that :)

The half-finale match of the GP DC where 2 Nemesis fought 1 Nemesis opened my eyes.

[Tormod]

I think if were going to play TNN we should play more than 1. Its a good card no doubt, but the 1 off seems loose. I think the counter spell is better as another pierce or TNN. We have force of will and daze to deal with True name, and we could pitch truename to FoW in a pinch.

the other idea is to run 2 goose and 2 true name. This would make threshold less important to the deck which sometimes it struggles with and give use the option to run a jitte in the side with 10-11 creatures being able to carry equipment and 8 cantrips to smooth it out.

[sherko7]

Due to some issues IRL, had to let go of the deck. :frown: Most of the pieces actually. Sucks but the Seas and DRS were easiest to let go. Will continue to playtest online though. More power! Will be building this again once I have the cash. :laugh:

[Lemnear]

I think if were going to play TNN we should play more than 1. Its a good card no doubt, but the 1 off seems loose. I think the counter spell is better as another pierce or TNN. We have force of will and daze to deal with True name, and we could pitch truename to FoW in a pinch.

the other idea is to run 2 goose and 2 true name. This would make threshold less important to the deck which sometimes it struggles with and give use the option to run a jitte in the side with 10-11 creatures being able to carry equipment and 8 cantrips to smooth it out.

Jitte is by far too mana intense to have a spot in a deck build on Wasteland, Stifle and Daze.

This deck could easily run 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2-3 TNN on the back of Gitaxian Probe to thin the deck out (Virtual more creatures and lands in the deck) and gain Perfect information about when to make the 1UU Investment wisely, etc.

Just an idea

[Tormod]

Jitte is by far too mana intense to have a spot in a deck build on Wasteland, Stifle and Daze.

This deck could easily run 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2-3 TNN on the back of Gitaxian Probe to thin the deck out (Virtual more creatures and lands in the deck) and gain Perfect information about when to make the 1UU Investment wisely, etc.

Just an idea

You probably right,

What I'm thinking is that against us, our opponent wouldn't dream of bringing in any artifact hate, and in the TNN mirrors, it seems like the guy with the Jitte is typically the victor.

TNN + Jitte is like a combo that = GG against all the fair decks

[TheKingslayer]

Jitte is by far too mana intense to have a spot in a deck build on Wasteland, Stifle and Daze.

This deck could easily run 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2-3 TNN on the back of Gitaxian Probe to thin the deck out (Virtual more creatures and lands in the deck) and gain Perfect information about when to make the 1UU Investment wisely, etc.

Just an idea

This format is quickly becoming very stale, if checking for when it's safe to drop a Nemesis is what it has turned into.

[Sasan]

Due to some issues IRL, had to let go of the deck. :frown: Most of the pieces actually. Sucks but the Seas and DRS were easiest to let go. Will continue to playtest online though. More power! Will be building this again once I have the cash. :laugh:

Oh no :-( Hope you will soon come back to bUrg after getting more cash :-)

[Sasan]

Jitte is by far too mana intense to have a spot in a deck build on Wasteland, Stifle and Daze.

This deck could easily run 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2-3 TNN on the back of Gitaxian Probe to thin the deck out (Virtual more creatures and lands in the deck) and gain Perfect information about when to make the 1UU Investment wisely, etc.

Just an idea

Now you are into something with that idea. Must check that out ASAP ;-).

[Sasan]

I playtested a lot last night and found out that 2 True-Name Nemesis' are better than one. As I do not want to cut the Mongoose number to 2 I went up to 13 creatures again. As I do not want to have many cards with UU I cut the Counterspell that was mainly there to have an answer for opposing Nemesis'. But with upping our own Nemesis count that is not needed anymore. With 13 creatures I could not include 2 Probes in the build. With Probes playing Nemesis would be that much greater. But well, the GP winning list did not play Probes either and with tight play and good reading of the opponent we do not need them.

As we become a little bit weaker game 1 versus combo due to the higher Nemesis count, I upped the counterspell suite to 7 (!!!) in the board. Therefore we should not fear combo decks. Our matchup is perfect versus them.

With that in mind we have now a better midrange matchup due to Nemesis.

The only problem of Nemesis, the tempo matchup, is not a problem at all. Carsten Linden dropped me a line that Nemesis is perfectly castable if you let the tempo opponent feel like he is the aggressor. With taking the control route there will be a moment when you remove their Goyfs and drop your own Nemesis and win. He thinks Nemesis is as good as Goyf in the tempo mirror if played right.

With 2 own Nemesis we do not need to play 2 Golgari Charms in the sideboard anymore. With 3 REBS and one Charm this should work well out. The anti-synergy between Charm and our own Nemesis was also a factor to cut the Charms number to one.

For reference here is the most recent list:



Deck: bUrg by The Sourcers.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:13
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Fire Covenant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge



It may have taken some days but right now I feel that the list is now perfect. Thanks to all of you, especially Lemnear, for your inputs. It helped me a lot to tune the list I posted a few days earlier. Although only some slots are changed these nuances make the difference between winning or losing in real close matchups.
Keep up the good work folks :)

PS: Sideboard guide has been updated. Now I hope that the most current list stays stable for at least a month as I hate rewriting the sideboard guide every couple of days :D

[Lemnear]

13 creatures is a lot. Fanning zoo-like hands is often annoying in a lot of matchups within a very tempo- and combo-centric environment like we have atm.

Just to get this in the right direction: I suggested the full set of DRS and the replacement of Goose with TNN and Probes for several reasons:

1) without goose, you can fling your own graveyard to the forehead of the opponent with the help of DRS against matchups which may lack a lot of instants/sorceries in their grave like D&T, meerfolk, 12-post, etc

2) Probe is a free spell to give food for your DRS while giving perfect information about how to play your answers/threats while also virtually increasing the desity of lands, creatures and solutions within the deck and therefore running 11+ creatures isn't required and the manabase is strong enough to support TNN

3) the 4th DRS battles opposing thresh-strategies and graveyard-decks while moster-blocking Goblin Lackey

4) removing Goofy and Goose makes you less vulnerable to opposing GY hate like their own DRS and Rest in Piece

5) playing TNN over Goofy often blanks opposing Abrupt Decays

[Sasan]

13 creatures is a lot. Fanning zoo-like hands is often annoying in a lot of matchups within a very tempo- and combo-centric environment like we have atm.

Just to get this in the right direction: I suggested the full set of DRS and the replacement of Goose with TNN and Probes for several reasons:

1) without goose, you can fling your own graveyard to the forehead of the opponent with the help of DRS against matchups which may lack a lot of instants/sorceries in their grave like D&T, meerfolk, 12-post, etc

2) Probe is a free spell to give food for your DRS while giving perfect information about how to play your answers/threats while also virtually increasing the desity of lands, creatures and solutions within the deck and therefore running 11+ creatures isn't required and the manabase is strong enough to support TNN

3) the 4th DRS battles opposing thresh-strategies and graveyard-decks while moster-blocking Goblin Lackey

4) removing Goofy and Goose makes you less vulnerable to opposing GY hate like their own DRS and Rest in Piece

5) playing TNN over Goofy often blanks opposing Abrupt Decays

Can you suggest a list and I will playtest it this night versus all DtB :) Deal?

I feel like if we are goind your route, we should play 11 creatures. The probes do nit thin the deck out that much that they replace a creature. But on the other side you only need to cast a Nemesis and protect it/interact with the opponent. Something tempo decks love to do. Delver/Shamans for the early pressure and Nemesis as a sticking one-sided sulfuric Vortrex. I just feel that Nimble Mongooe is not out of date, yet. Especially we must consider the fact that the opponent will bring in Plagues/Charms etc so it is nice to have Mongoose as it dodges all that hate. But I am hoping that you suggest a list and I will work with it and see if it is good :)



Maindeck: 60
Deck: Sasans bUrg test.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire Covenant
3 Submerge


That would be a Probe/Nemesis/Mongoose-less list that could work. Do you mean something along these lines?

[Lemnear]

Along those lines. I'm a bit unsure about the numbers of probes, snares (or even pierces if you asked me) and decays but may leave that to testing or down to the input of more experienced pilots. ;D

I guess the Taiga lost it's justification in the list though. Would ponder over 2 thoughtseize in the sb over the pierces to diversify hate



Edit: sry for the short response ... buisy at work :\

[Sasan]

I will test a similar list tonight and ask Carsten Linden to have a word on that, too. Thanks. It is appreciated.

[Star|Scream]

Is Delver enough of a clock against combo? I know Deathrite plus Delver is 5 a turn, but on their own it's no so great unless you get something like land, delver, 5 blue cards with a blind flip on turn 2.

I think you should maybe have at least one clique in the board for when you take out your TNN. That way you can stay untapped yet still drop a threat AND disrupt end of turn.

[Quasim0ff]

Taiga is 100(!!!!)% wrong in that list.

You have daze + DOUBLE UU cards now. Taiga is 100% not reliable and has no place.


Also, please play spell pierces over Spell Snares in that list. You are very weak to combo, as you have just 4 force/4 daze to counter SnT/etc.

[TheKingslayer]

We should use probe to make sure Nemesis is safe from our opponents' dazes and Serum Powders in place of Delvers so we can effectively mulligan for True-name while simultaneously thinning out the deck.

[Tormod]

I went 4-0 tonight at my local weekly Legacy night.

This is what I played:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage



Round 1 vs UB Delver
Game 1 Delver get there whiles Abupts take out his.
Game 2 I mull to 5, opponent plays island go, i turn 1 delver. Opponent untaps, brainstorms and misses his and drop.
2-0/1-0

Round 2 vs Enchantress
A relatively new fellow to the Legacy format.
Game 1 He gets an early enchantress, I have drs and a delver, he follows up with rest in peace which I spellsnare, he plays energy field, I wasteland his city of brass.
Game 2 He plays more conservatively. I force a choke, He resolves humility and rest in peace, i play out 2 drs and 2 delver and beat on him for 4 a turn. I abrupt rest in peace in response to his helm activation
4-0/2-0

Round 3 vs BUG Delver
I don't remember too much about these matches except they were grindy, and in a lot of the ways it felt like a mirror match
Game 1 I forget but lots of goyfs, drs, delvers and true name on both sides.
Game 2 He beats me with double deathrite shaman to my 1
Game 3 I get good fast draw beat down. I live the dream with red blast True-Name Nemesis
6-1/3-0

Round 4 vs UWR Delver (we're both 3-0)
Game 1 he wins with double delvers
Game 2 I stop a turn 2 jitte with spell snare, lots of trading back and forth until i establish 1 delver and 1 drs on the board. I attack and manage his mana, a timely spellsnare stops stoneforge, Opponent plays a TNN, but he's already at 8 life, I drsfor 2, EOT, swing for 3 and drs for 2.
Game 3, I get double delvers, I swing in for 6, he bolts my delver, I divert it to his face and he takes 9
8-2/4-0

-I pulled the goose, making the deck less reliant on green mana turn 1, and graveyard hate. I didn't really miss goose to much to be honest.
-2 True-Name seemed like a enough and I like the 2-2 split with goyf. It gave me resilience to rest in peace.
-snares did more work than pierce for me, but i was glad to have them both.

I really liked how the main deck played. but I will look at doing something to the mana, because i don't have goose i'm not worried of having 7 fetches or gitaxian probes to push threshold. Sideboard, I think I will add a Zuran Orb. One way to race against True-Name is through life gain. Divert felt like it might have been too cute.

[Sasan]

Congrats for your great finish :)

[Sasan]

I have tested the Goyf/Mongeese-less list that Lemnear suggested and chatted a lot with Carsten Linden and we came to the conclusion that we do not want to go that route for now.

The reason is that we expect a lot of Nemesis hate in the coming weeks and as grave hate strategies (Rest in Peace) will decline more and more, Mongoose will become stronger. It is always nice to have a Mongoose as a backup plan if the opponent lands his Engineered Plague or Golgari Charm.

The fear that we lose to decks packing in multiple Nemesis' is not there anymore. Carsten playtested the last days with the best legacy players and dropped me the message that all Nemesis decks lose to bUrg sideboards including 2 Pyroblasts and 2 Golgari Charms.

With that in mind we discussed about the number of creatures we want to run and 13 is still the way to go. Remember that I introduced the 13 creature trend in bUrg and Carsten adapted it and now he does not want to leave that route. With a midrange meta you need more meat on the table and Deathrite Shaman is not always a threat as it is often a one-mana planeswalker that acts as a mana dork. bUrg needs more "real creatures". Tarmogoyf is still the best beater and we must find a way to include Tarmogoyf and TNN and Mongoose and Delver and Shaman...Wow that is a lot.

Now let me introduce you the new official creature suite:

I added this column to the primer:


Creature Numbers

So we must now decide on the creature numbers. We want to play Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose, Delver, Tarmogoyf and True-Name Nemesis.

Tempo decks do not want to play more than 12 creatures normally. My innovation to the bUrg was to play 13 ones. The reason is the current midrange meta game that is removal and creature heavy. Tempo decks need more meat on the table. 13 is the perfect number of threats for bUrg. That is more true if you realize that Deathrite Shaman is not always a threat - it is a one-mana planeswalker that ofen acts as a mana dork and therefore cannot do damage. So we need a bit more "real" creatures.

Deciding on the correct creature configuration is not an easy task. But there is one key deck building rule that we should consider:

- We need a full playset of cards if we are always happy to have mulitple copies of them in our hands/in play.
- We need only three copies of the chosen card if we always want one per game but not necessarily more of them.

If we apply those rules to our creature base the followiging conclusion can be drawn:

- We need 4 Delvers. Multiple active copies often mean a victory. Delver is a card that benefits from being cast in the first 2 turns. The odds of drawing him early are highet with a playset.

- We need 3 Deathrite Shamans: As we can only play with two black sources we can perhaps only afford to play three of them. We do not want a hand with two Shamans. So three is the perfect count. As all decks run a great number of spot removal and target your Shaman, you will perhaps need another one. As Shaman stabilizes our mana base and as the main hate versus bUrg is to kill our Shamans 4 can the right number in the most current meta game. Right now we stay at 3 in order not to overloard our first turn actions with Stifles/Delvers/Shamans.

-We need 4 Nimble Mongeese: We are never unhappy to have more than one copy in play. More cost efficent Mongeese can always be cast and are seldomly a drawback. Swinging for 6 is never regretted.

- We need 3 Tarmogoyfs: Hands with multiple Tarmogoyfs always feel clunky. Tarmogoyf is a beatstick that can set the ground and help Shaman and Delver to make damage due to their evasion. There are situations where we do not want to tap out for casting Tarmogoyf. bUrg can nearly always make 14-15 damage points without Goyf. Goyf is needed as a late game bomb. We only need one Goyf per Game. 3 is the perfect number.

Wait, that makes 14 creatures. But we only can afford to run 13. Is that a contradiction? No. True-Name Nemesis is a hybrid Goyf/Mongoose. If it has been casted it can do the same things as Mongoose but also block like a champ - Tarmogoyf style. With Evasion he can push through the last points of damage - just like Goyf. So with a creature that is Goyf and Mongoose in one card, why do not we play a playset of the nasty Merfolk and cut our Goyfs and Mongeese? Simple, we want to run efficent beaters. True-Name Nemesis costs cc3 and nearly always asks for tapping out, even if you would play with 4 Shamans. It makes our tempo deck too midrangy. Even Patriot does not run more than two copies of True-Name Nemesis. So after running a playset or even 3 True-Name Nemesis' is out of the way, we can now decide if we want to run one or two of them. As True-Name Nemesis does nothing that cannot be achieved with Goyf or Mongoose we must stick at our more efficent threats. But I tell you what: True-Name Nemesis solves our problem of needing to run 14 creatures in a 13 creatures shell. If TNN is a hybrid Goyf/Mongoose in a tempo deck - being a bit worse - we can now cut one Mongoose and replace him with a True-Name Nemesis.

Look at the creature base now:
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose (one being a True-Name Nemesis)
3 Tarmogoyf (one being the same one-off True-Name Nemesis).

Now, does it not look sweet? Yes it does. True-Name Nemesis saves us deck space. He is the Izzet Charm of creatures - the latter can save us a slot as it is removal and counter spell in one card.


Here is the state of the art list for the current international meta game:



Deck: Sasan's bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam



The Primer and sideboard guide has now been updated.

@Spell Snare/Spell Pierce discussion: It is a meta call and I described in the primer why I would still run Snares over Pierces. Read it up there and if you do not agree, just run Spell Pierces ;-).

@TheKingSlayer: I understand the irony ;-) The highly unfunniness of TNN was a bit part of the reason we do not want to turn bUrg into a TNN deck ;-). We want to play interactive and fun Magic.

@ Taiga: With one copy of TNN and without a Counterspell Taiga belongs to the list. The list that has been discussed as a test build - let us call it the Lemnear list, as he suggested it more or less - does not need Taiga anymore.

@ Lemnear: I am sorry that your great ideas did not lead to a new stock list based on them. If the meta game changes a bit and becomes divided in TNN.dec or combo.dec we might come back to your good suggestion. But right now we think our list is better for the *current* meta state.

[jparula]

Just some list i've been trying out on mws.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

I feel TNN is really strong and wanted to find the best deck for it. I wanted a deck that would have reach/burn to finish the game quickly with 2/3 nemesis hits (thus bolt and shaman), was able to drops nemesis on turn 2 some of the times (shaman), would have other creatures with evasion (delver) that could deal damage in the early/later game. I've been really happy with the list above, although i'm not really sure about the quantities on pierces/snares, hymn and dismember. I feel like the other cards fit the deck perfectly but those kind of alternate in value depending on the match-up.
I've also had some trouble with the sideboard and have tried a lot of different stuff, however i feel like i rely too much on the green mana i have few sources of.

Sideboard:

2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer

Has anyone tried anything like this? Any tips on cards i should be trying out?

Regards

[Sasan]

I feel that you should post your list at the Team America thread as your list is BUG plus Bolts and a singleton Grim in the SB. bUrg is RUG Delver with Shaman and better sideboard. That is why I
think we cannot give you the expert advices you are looking for. But perhaps a Team America expert can answer your questions.

If you want to try a good bUrg list give my new official list a try ;)

[mog]

Just wanted to say, it's been hilarious watching you guys spin around in circles after the results of the Grand Prix. Back to square one less a Mongoose adding a True-Name Nemesis with extra Golgari Charms in the board. I can get behind that, hahaha.

[Star|Scream]

Just wanted to say, it's been hilarious watching you guys spin around in circles after the results of the Grand Prix. Back to square one less a Mongoose adding a True-Name Nemesis with extra Golgari Charms in the board. I can get behind that, hahaha.

I agree. It's hard to take anything seriously on this thread.

[Sasan]

Just wanted to say, it's been hilarious watching you guys spin around in circles after the results of the Grand Prix. Back to square one less a Mongoose adding a True-Name Nemesis with extra Golgari Charms in the board. I can get behind that, hahaha.

Better we make the circles in the thread rather than losing in a tournament due to a bad list :)

Yeah it is the same list - 1 Mongoose + 1 TNN and -1 Fire Covenant and -1 Dread of Night/Ashiok + 2 Charms :-P Not much has changed :-P

I think no one can say that a one-off TNN hurts bUrg or makes it worse. In fact it makes us less color screw, less grave dependent and is Goyf 3 while keeping 4 virtual Mongeese. It makes the deck slightly better. These are nuances but they decide if you win a tournament or do not make it to the Top 8 ;)

[Einherjer]

But there is one small, yet important difference. When we, the common folk, spin around when debating around single cardchoices it affects our own lists. Even if we post them every now and then it still says "decklist:XYZ". What we do not do is like "THE OFFICIAL HAIL TO GOD COPY MY DECKLIST"style of things, you know?

Greetings

[mog]

Yeah, I didn't mean to be negative. It is just nice and sometimes entertaining to see all the steps to a natural conclusion. Nice work.

[Sasan]

I agree. It's hard to take anything seriously on this thread.

First of all, that kind of harsh criticism is not based on facts. We discussed deck lists that exchanged perhaps 4-5 cards if not less - The meta game is shifting and we are testing for weeks now and I do think that it is appreciated that we post every step in the think process. It is a thread with a great discussion culture where every single question is answered or every idea is discussed. Every idea that seems not bad at first glance is tested. So show me one single thread here that has that approach.

And the end result matters. The list now is perfect and the primer is to be taken more seriously than half of the primers on the source - or when was the RUG Delver primer updated and how many primers are so short that they read like a long post?

So I sincerely ask you take back your offense. Real bad move.

[Sasan]

But there is one small, yet important difference. When we, the common folk, spin around when debating around single cardchoices it affects our own lists. Even if we post them every now and then it still says "decklist:XYZ". What we do not do is like "THE OFFICIAL HAIL TO GOD COPY MY DECKLIST"style of things, you know?

Greetings

Yeah if you followed the thread you would know that I always appreciate more ways than the one in the primer. But as Carsten and I want to promote the deck here in the US and make it viable there we need just a bit of marketing. And catch words like "official ultimate list" sound nice, huh? ;-) But the more important reason for that approach is that 4 color decks can be messed up quite hard if not done right. It is such a fragile construction that always can break if 2-3 cards are exchanged. For example: 3-4 more black cards in the main deck make bUrg total garbage. That is why I want official lists so that no one can come and say that bUrg is a bad deck although they played a bad list :) I hope that makes sense.

[Star|Scream]

First of all, that kind of harsh criticism is not based on facts. We discussed deck lists that exchanged perhaps 4-5 cards if not less - The meta game is shifting and we are testing for weeks now and I do think that it is appreciated that we post every step in the think process. It is a thread with a great discussion culture where every single question is answered or every idea is discussed. Every idea that seems not bad at first glance is tested. So show me one single thread here that has that approach.

And the end result matters. The list now is perfect and the primer is to be taken more seriously than half of the primers on the source - or when was the RUG Delver primer updated and how many primers are so short that they read like a long post?

So I sincerely ask you take back your offense. Real bad move.

When you boast three different "OFFICIAL" and final builds three days in a row, there is no way you can be taken seriously. Just yesterday you said two TNN were better than one. Now you are saying one is better. Earlier you were advocating playing Ashiok in your lists. I stand by my statement that it is hard to take you seriously.

[fdiv_bug]

When you boast three different "OFFICIAL" and final builds three days in a row, there is no way you can be taken seriously. Just yesterday you said two TNN were better than one. Now you are saying one is better. Earlier you were advocating playing Ashiok in your lists. I stand by my statement that it is hard to take you seriously.

If you don't like his or anyone else's ideas, then you are under no obligation to follow them. If you find it entertaining to simply watch the discussion, then enjoy, but please do so quietly and/or respectfully. Thanks in advance!

Regarding the list, I'm sticking with the non-TNN build, in part because I don't have them, and in part because I think the 4/4/3/2 Delver/Goose/DRS/Goyf team is still the right one for me. I had good performance with the Forked Bolt in the 3rd Spell Snare slot on day one of the GP, only missing day two by the last round to end at 6-2-1, but in a side event on Sunday I tried out a third Abrupt Decay in that slot. It didn't seem to help or hinder, so at the moment I'm trying a Maelstrom Pulse to see if that speaks strongly to me, one way or the other.

One thing that I did develop a firm belief in over the course of the events is the 8 fetch mana base. This one feels right to me, and I expect it's what I'll stick with even as minor changes take place around it.

[Sasan]

When you boast three different "OFFICIAL" and final builds three days in a row, there is no way you can be taken seriously. Just yesterday you said two TNN were better than one. Now you are saying one is better. Earlier you were advocating playing Ashiok in your lists. I stand by my statement that it is hard to take you seriously.

Well then I cannot take you seriously.

Ashiok stays a great card but the SB space is limited due to the Golgari Charms. Only the first and last list were official. The second one was a test build. The difference between the first and third is minor. And it was too much changing of lists in some days that is true. I can only stress that the differences were only 3-4 slots. I do not know how that harsh criticism can arise. But perhaps you have better manners in real life. And perhaps you can let you crushed by my list to take this seriously. I would just download Cockatrice just for you. But stop bashing and posting nonsense in the otherwise great thread that has been praised for its discussion culture by Glenn Jones from SCG. Where is your primer that you manage with labor and love? Yeah there is none . You are a troll.

[Sasan]

If you don't like his or anyone else's ideas, then you are under no obligation to follow them. If you find it entertaining to simply watch the discussion, then enjoy, but please do so quietly and/or respectfully. Thanks in advance!

Regarding the list, I'm sticking with the non-TNN build, in part because I don't have them, and in part because I think the 4/4/3/2 Delver/Goose/DRS/Goyf team is still the right one for me. I had good performance with the Forked Bolt in the 3rd Spell Snare slot on day one of the GP, only missing day two by the last round to end at 6-2-1, but in a side event on Sunday I tried out a third Abrupt Decay in that slot. It didn't seem to help or hinder, so at the moment I'm trying a Maelstrom Pulse to see if that speaks strongly to me, one way or the other.

One thing that I did develop a firm belief in over the course of the events is the 8 fetch mana base. This one feels right to me, and I expect it's what I'll stick with even as minor changes take place around it.

As stated in the primer 8 fetch lands is totally fine :) But in a tempo heavy meta 7 is perhaps slightly better just to dodge opposing Stifles a bit more. And your creature base is just slightly changed from the new proposed
one. Just respectable changes you made and these should work out well :-)

Ah and the Spell Snare choices are always playstyle dependent and meta choices. A Snare/Pierce split or a Removal Spell more might work there too. If you run maelstorm pulse please do not run TNN as 2 cc3 spells and 4 cc2 spells would make the mana curve a bit high.

[Star|Scream]

Well then I cannot take you seriously.

Ashiok stays a great card but the SB space is limited due to the Golgari Charms. Only the first and last list were official. The second one was a test build. The difference between the first and third is minor. And it was too much changing of lists in some days that is true. I can only stress that the differences were only 3-4 slots. I do not know how that harsh criticism can arise. But perhaps you have better manners in real life. And perhaps you can let you crushed by my list to take this seriously. I would just download Cockatrice just for you. But stop bashing and posting nonsense in the otherwise great thread that has been praised for its discussion culture by Glenn Jones from SCG. Where is your primer that you manage with labor and love? Yeah there is none . You are a troll.

I don't know why you're taking this so defensively. I'm just saying that you somehow claiming to have created the perfect "OFFICIAL" decklist yet you keep changing it over and over is comical. I'm not being a troll. You're just not approaching this from a serious deck-building mindset. Official lists aren't set in stone every other day. They take weeks and months to hone. It just seems like you try one thing and fail, so you try another, then back to the first, and so on and so forth. That's not being serious.

Please don't call my manners into question because I am not being mean. I am just being honest.

[Sasan]

I cannot repeat myself more: One list was suggested by a forum member and I said that I would test it to say if it is a good approach. The other lists were just like the list now. I bet my ass that all lists - except the test list that was never mentionned in the primer - were and are top notch and can beat all decks to beat. I would understand you if I had posted a single bad list but all lists are beasts. They are all so sweet that deciding on the right one is not easy. And take note that one list was by me, one by the community and the last one double checked with Carsten. You know that you get different results if you have different people tuning it? The core was always the same and only the creature base was changed. Just get over it and try to build similar lists on any archetype and then come and talk about deck building theory. And one thing must be repeated again: Just stop trolling.

And believe me we test different lists just after the first TNN spoilers appeared. No list was half-tested. All
work incredibly well.

Edit: I just looked it up.

The first list was posted during the GP weekend or so. It was a conservative approach as the impact of
TNN was believed to be just a hype.

Then there came a list that was and is perfect for the meta game of the moment.

The newest list considers the trends that all decks plan to hate out Nemesis and therefore mongoose becomes better.

The rush is not my fault. It is the result of the meta vacuum we are now on. The lists of Esper Blade two weeks ago, one week ago and today have changed dramatically. This does not get criticized? Well I hope that you return to normal arguments and stop bitching.

[Star|Scream]

I cannot repeat myself more: One list was suggested by a forum member and I said that I would test it to say if it is a good approach. The other lists were just like the list now. I bet my ass that all lists - except the test list that was never mentionned in the primer - were and are top notch and can beat all decks to beat. I would understand you if I had posted a single bad list but all lists are beasts. They are all so sweet that deciding on the right one is not easy. And take note that one list was by me, one by the community and the last one double checked with Carsten. You know that you get different results if you have different people tuning it? The core was always the same and only the creature base was changed. Just get over it and try to build similar lists on any archetype and then come and talk about deck building theory. And one thing must be repeated again: Just stop trolling.

And believe me we test different lists just after the first TNN spoilers appeared. No list was half-tested. All
work incredibly well.

Edit: I just looked it up.

The first list was posted during the GP weekend or just own day later. It was a conservative approach as the impact of
TNN was believed to be just a hype.

Then there came a list that was and is perfect for the meta game of the moment.

The newest list considers the trends that all decks plan to hate out Nemesis and therefor mongoose becomes better.

The rush is not my fault. It is the result of the meta vacuum we are now on. The lists of Esper Blade two weeks ago, one week ago and today have changed dramatically. This does not get criticized? Well I hope that you return to normal arguments and stop bitching.

I'm not bitching. I'm not trolling.

I said I cannot take you seriously when you proclaim you have the one and only official decklist. Oh but that's changing today, then tomorrow, now back to 1 TNN, or maybe 2? It's silly.

It doesn't mean the deck is bad or you didn't test it well. It just means you're being silly and it's hard to take you seriously. Get over yourself. You're not the owner of the archetype.

[Sasan]

Thanks.


And a discussion process can lead to a conclusion that is not that much changed from the stock list of
the last months :-) A discussion must be open-minded.

[Tormod]

***I'll make a disclaimer that the variance in opinions could be related to local meta***

Sasan, the creature package you propose is very similar to what I ran last week and I must admit it didn't work for me.

Last week I ran (14 creatures)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis

Your proposing now that the creature package is: (13 creatures)
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

The difference is (1) Nimble Mongoose which has some relevance. From my experience I didn't like the singleton True-Name Nemesis. Maybe it was me, but having only 1 copy I may have over valued it and would want to only play it when I had counter back up. To be honest, based on a lot of the content in this thread I was convinced to play fewer creatures, Going down from 14 to 12. I wanted to add more control pieces, initially I considered cutting stifle to make room for 3 pierce and 3 spell snare. I quickly added the stifles back in, but I was still stuck on what should I cut from the deck to make room. I really like Lemnear idea of cutting goose. The current builds of bUrg have a difficult time of achieving Threshold early. We run only 7 fetchland and 0 gitaxian probes. We are 2 turns behind RUG's threshold with their 4 free cards (3 probes and 8th fetch) and rely on our Deathrites to hold off their buy time for our threshold plan. There are a lot of times where goose is 1/1. Yesterday, there was no absence of graveyard hate. In 4 rounds I had 3 rest in peace cast against me, twice it resolved and, at least as many deathrite shaman battles. So right now at my meta, I feel good about cutting goose (-4) for +1 Deathrite Shaman(4), +2 Spell Pierce(4), +1 True-Name(2) Having 2 True-Name made cutting goose easier.

Having less green makes it easier to switch the Taiga to a Badland, since green is only needed for 2 abrupt, 2 goyfs and deathrite activations. I am also considering cutting another fetchland since Threshold isn't important anymore and adding a 8th mana producing that which makes me better against the stifle/wasteland decks in my meta. (top 4 decks yesterday were all delver decks bUrg, UWR, Grixis, BUG.) I'm not suggesting that everyone should play this, but it seemed really strong for me yesterday, the deck seemed to 'flow' better than any of the other bUrg builds I've played so far.

This is what I have built in response to yesterdays performance. (For the record I went 4-0)

I'd like to nick-name this 'gooseless' variant:
'HeisenbUrg Delver' in honor of Walter White :tongue:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badland
4 Wasteland

sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dread of Night
1 Liliana of the Veil


Simple design and the numbers are pretty good

sideboard discussion:
Having 3 red blast vs True-Name seemed like a bit much. But I wanted an answer for it. Adding a Badland open the idea of running a Liliana in the Veil. Likely its greedy, but I'm willing to give it a go. Having turn 2 Liliana is a nice option.

Since I was off the threshold plan, There is an opportunity to play Grim Lavamancer as a removal option.

Since I was off goose, there wasn't as many reasons not to run Umezawa's Jitte. Having 12 bodies live for equipment. True-Name Nemesis + Jitte is combo against fair decks. You swing with this, you win.

Dread of Night might get switched to a massacre

[Sasan]

I'm not bitching. I'm not trolling.

I said I cannot take you seriously when you proclaim you have the one and only official decklist. Oh but that's changing today, then tomorrow, now back to 1 TNN, or maybe 2? It's silly.

It doesn't mean the deck is bad or you didn't test it well. It just means you're being silly and it's hard to take you seriously. Get over yourself. You're not the owner of the archetype.

You know that I only call it official deck list if the inventor of the archetype approves it? I cannot see where that is the case except the Team America Thread of Daniel. That is why the term official is not wrong. It is the stock list for discussions. So everyone can say: I played the stock list - 1 Goyf + 1 TNN for example. It streamlines the discussion and helps.

Well if you say the lists are good and tested, where is the point in criticizing my person? Is that approved by the forum guidelines or by social behavior? if must be great to sit behind a computer and insult people, huh?

[Tormod]

Respectfully: Can we please just get back to the subject?

the noise is distracting from the content.

[Star|Scream]

You know that I only call it official deck list if the inventor of the archetype approves it? I cannot see where that is the case except the Team America Thread of Daniel. That is why the term official is not wrong. It is the stock list for discussions. So everyone can say: I played the stock list - 1 Goyf + 1 TNN for example. It streamlines the discussion and helps.

Well if you say the lists are good and tested, where is the point in criticizing my person? Is that approved by the forum guidelines or by social behavior? if must be great to sit behind a computer and insult people, huh?

I am not insulting you!! I am saying you are acting silly and I can't take you seriously! Please read what I just wrote again!

Anyway let's stop. It's going nowhere.

[Sasan]

***I'll make a disclaimer that the variance in opinions could be related to local meta***

Sasan, the creature package you propose is very similar to what I ran last week and I must admit it didn't work for good for me.

Last week I ran (14 creatures)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis

Your proposing now that the creature package is: (13 creatures)
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

The difference is (1) Nimble Mongoose which has some relevance. From my experience I didn't like the singleton True-Name Nemesis. Maybe it was me, but having only 1 copy I may have over valued it and would want to only play it when I had counter back up. To be honest, based on a lot of the content in this thread I was convinced to play fewer creatures, Going down from 14 to 12. I wanted to add more control pieces, initially I considered cutting stifle to make room for 3 pierce and 3 spell snare. I quickly added the stifles back in, but I was still stuck on what should I cut from the deck to make room. I really like Lemnear idea of cutting goose. The current builds of bUrg have a difficult time of achieving Threshold early. We run only 7 fetchland and 0 gitaxian probes. We are 2 turns behind RUG's threshold with their 4 free cards (3 probes and 8th fetch) and rely on our Deathrites to hold off their buy time for our threshold plan. There are a lot of times where goose is 1/1. Yesterday, there was no absence of graveyard hate. In 4 rounds I had 3 rest in peace cast against me, twice it resolved and, at least as many deathrite shaman battles. So right now at my meta, I feel good about cutting goose (-4) for +1 Deathrite Shaman(4), +2 Spell Pierce(4), +1 True-Name(2) Having 2 True-Name made cutting goose easier.

Having less green makes it easier to switch the Taiga to a Badland, since green is only needed for 2 abrupt, 2 goyfs and deathrite activations. I am also considering cutting another fetchland since Threshold isn't important anymore and adding a 8th mana producing that which makes me better against the stifle/wasteland decks in my meta. (top 4 decks yesterday were all delver decks bUrg, UWR, Grixis, BUG.) I'm not suggesting that everyone should play this, but it seemed really strong for me yesterday, the deck seemed to 'flow' better than any of the other bUrg builds I've played so far.

This is what I have built in response to yesterdays performance. (For the record I went 4-0)

I'd like to nick-name this 'gooseless' variant:
'HeisenbUrg Delver' in honor of Walter White :tongue:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dread of Night
1 Liliana of the Veil


Simple design and the numbers are pretty good

sideboard discussion:
Having 3 red blast vs True-Name seemed like a bit much. But I wanted an answer for it. Adding a Badland open the idea of running a Liliana in the Veil. Likely its greedy, but I'm willing to give it a go. Having turn 2 Liliana is a nice option.

Since I was off the threshold plan, There is an opportunity to play Grim Lavamancer as a removal option.

Since I was off goose, there wasn't as many reasons not to run Umezawa's Jitte. Having 12 bodies live for equipment. True-Name Nemesis + Jitte is combo against fair decks. You swing with this, you win.

Dread of Night might get switched to a massacre

Thanks for your input. I appreciate your list and perhaps we can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of your approach.

Plus sides:
-12 Creatures (meaning more spells)
- better mana base (badlands is better than taiga in your list, 4 Shaman therefore make sense)
- Only Shaman suffers from RIP.

Possible Down Side:
- Only one: You lose Mongoose and have only
2 Shroud creatures. While Goyf or Mongoose are perhaps equally good versus many decks Goyf is quite bad in matchups where you face a Swords to Plowshares.dec or a deck relying on Decay. Those are the times you miss 4 shroud creatures. Versus Control more shroud creatures are appreciated, too. On the other hand it is true that Mongoose is slower in bUrg than in RUG. I am happy that RUG players slowly begin to abandon their Probes so that the difference will not be that significant anymore. I think that Mongoose in bUrg asks for a conservative and not aggressive
playstyle. bUrg is tending to be on the control side of tempo decks. But if you want to play more aggressively Mongoose seems slow. So a playstyle option.


@Sideboard: Let me know how Lilli works for you. It seems bit greedy tough.
Massacre harms your Shamans and Delver too much.

@my creature base: You said it: Do not treat Nemesis as a holy card that must be cast with counter backup. Just think if you draw it: Oh another Mongoose/Goyf (just depends what you need at the moment) and treat it accordingly :-)

[cheerios]

@Sasan

How has the SB Golgari Charms in the TNN lists worked for you? I'm planning to run a TNNless burg list just for the sake of casting Golgari Charm on them TNNs.

[Sasan]

Although I miss the second Fire Covenant I think running 2 Charms is the right move now. You need at least 4 slots of TNN hate, as you need to kill him on the stack or just the turn he lands or the turn after. The reason is that pumping the TNN will give you a hard time to use Charms. That is why only Charms will not work, some REBs must come in. I am on the point where boarding in Charms versus Merfolk is useless due to their pump lords. But with 2 REBs, 2 Charms and some forces/Dazes that are not boarded out you get there. Charm happens to be a blowout versus DNT and Elves. As this is the case, it is not a narrow SB card. REB neither. So we are in the happy position to have 2 solid answers to TNN without dedicating that much SB space. Note that a 3 REB and 1 Charm configuration will work, too. Playing 2 Charms and one TNN as supposed in the new list is ok, as the anti-synergy will not often occur and if it the case you must see if you are ahead or left behind in the damage race. Then you can chose whether to cast Charm or not ;)

[cheerios]

LOL. I have forgotten the Merfolk decks and just focused on the Delver-TNN lists. Might run a singleton Engineered Plague with the 2 Golgari Charms. Tho I don't think they should be a problem for a deck with Abrupt Decay, Lightning bolt and REBs. I'll post my insights once I get to test. Been spending time testing ANT and RUG but I have been getting the itch to get into the Burg train again.

[Sasan]

Good to have you back :-)

[Isre Morn]

Thanks to TNN and Sasan's advice in the RUG Tempo Thread that there's a Primer Thread of BURG tempo in the forums, I'll participate from time to time on the discussion here. Finally I get the feeling of piloting with DRS and AD :smile: (previous RUG player).

Atm I fetch the cards together, which may take some time, because I don't own some cards like Underground Seas. Here's my current list I imagine.


4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf


4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

1 Life from the Loam
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Fire Covenant


First I thought of going 4 DRS, 4 Delvers, 2 Goyf and 2 TNN, but I don't like the the disharmony with Golgari Charm and its cc3. I share your thoughts about 4 Goose is too much, because we don't reach threshold so far. 3 shroudbeaters for 1cc are better than 2 for 3cc. I don't want to go over 12 Creatures overall.

I have problems with including a single Bayou/Taiga/Badlands at the beginning with the deck, because I hate to have it in my starting hand and because of Daze. Is there a good chance to pilot well with my landbase and -choices? If not, Badlands or Taiga, or even Bayou?

So far, greetings, halo

[Sasan]

Great that you joined bUrg ;-)

First of all, if you want to run 12 creatures I would cut the TNN from the stock list like you did.

The Snare/Pierce split is just a matter of playstyle. I hate splits as you always have the wrong card in hand then but that is only a personal thing.

The manabase needs a Taiga or Badlands to be able to have the possibility to operate from 2 lands. Just read the primer with arguments for the Badlands vs Taiga discussion.

Taking mulligans due to a Waste/Taiga opener is a necessary evil of the deck.

The SB looks fine although it lacks at least one extra piece of countermagic versus combo. 2 Grudges are too much as you have Decays and Snares. 2 Cages might be too much either as you already have Shaman MD.

Otherwise good list :)

[Isre Morn]

Thanks for your comment and help. I finally internalised the possibility to operate from 2 lands (like in RUG) and therefore the necessity with a nonblue-dual as in the primer mentioned.

I like the split, because you have additional answers to potential threads. Each card has its up- and downsides against the metagame. But I like to be prepared for everything. If no need, bad luck and they become FoW fodder. So far for theory, a dynamic game shows another reality ;-) All in all I know the eternal discussions about Snares/Pierces, finally a mixture between playstile and metacall.

I think you're right about the grudges/cages.

[Sasan]

I updated the primer with the boarding plan for Deathblade with TNN. The last SCG open has proven that Death Blade will use Nemesis instead of Bobs in the near future.

Therefore the boarding I would suggest would be:

//Death Blade with Nemesis:
//OtP: -2 Force - 2 Daze + 1 Ancient Grudge+ 2 REB+ 1 Golgari Charm
//OtD: -4 Daze - 1 Stifle+ 1 Ancient Grudge+ 2 Golgari Charm+ 2 REB


I also updated the primer with a ressources section where I gathered links with articles concerning bUrg.

[lurch]

Dear All,

I have never posted at the Source before - I am a long time reader but never actually bothered to participate. At a German forum, I posted a short tournament report which Sasan kindly asked me to share with fellow TheSource readers. As this is my first post here, I might make some mistakes in formatting or other forum conventions - please excuse that. Yesterday (Sunday, November 24th) I visited the local "Deck, Worscht unn' Woi" in a German city called Mainz. The tournament was one of a series of privately held monthly tournaments by a local Legacy club - a couple of friends that happen to love the format. We were 29 players and played 5 rounds.

I have been true to my love Canadian for the past two and a half years - but after having been extraordinarily unhappy with the deck at BOM 8 in Paris last month (a measly 5:4 in the main event), I decided to change my approach to tempo - my slightly adapted version of bUrg, which I neutrally called "German Thresh" in order not to cause any confusion.

This is the 75 I ran:

German Threshold:

12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

30 Spells
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

18 Land
4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

15 Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant

First round: Elves with Sebastian from Berlin
I recently moved to Berlin and only know a limited number of people from the local Legacy scene. Funny enough, my first round opponent was visiting for the weekend - Mainz is about 600km from Berlin...He was a nice chap, on we go.
Game 1 he is OTP. I play Volcanic, Delver and kept an otherwise land heavy hand with two wasteland - he goes into combo turn 2 ab and plays Ruric Thar as well as 5-6 elves. I scoop in order not to show him any more cards. Games 2 and 3 I draw a lot of meat, removal and counters - no way he could have managed, the games finish fast. Nice opponent and time for a cappuccino - Sweet.
2:1; 1:0

Second round: Grixis Reanimator with Christian
I have played against Chris and his personal (excellent) Grixis Reanimator Brew many times before with RUG tempo - and barely stood a chance. I know him well and we joke before the game - where I tell him that I brought 4 Grafdigger's Cage for him and his GY brew - sweat on his forehead, smile on my face.
Game 1 I play an early Mongoose which does not Thresh for what feels like an eternity. After a grindy 8 or 9 turns, he plays Reanimate on Griselbrand and smashes face. Game 2 is funny..I play Deathrite, next turn he answers it with Pithing Needle - in Response I Brainstorm and find Misty, Deathrite, Deathrite...no matter what, I play the small guys and a Delver, counter every discard spell he plays and he dies.
Game 3 I am much too greedy and play all 3 Deathrite Shamans, as well as a Cage hin (would have been dead to Explosives but wanted to close the game). Again, he draws his Needle and is superbly happy....until he sees the Ancient Grudge (Hello, leveling ftw ;)) I brought in. Three turns later, he scoops. No time for coffee, on with round 3
2:1 ; 2:0

Third round: Elves with Martin, who later won the tournament
The second time with elves starts for me with a mulligan to 5 (@Sasan, I checked my notes, not 6). Game 1, he is stuck on 2 lands in play and no plays - seems like he kept a hand with all fatties and NO (?!?). Delvers and Mongoose do their jobs.
Game 2 und 3 he is just elves. In G3 I have 2 flippet Delvers by turn 3 as well as Fire Covenant in Hand. He has the nuts and draws his entire Deck. This is where I'd like to discuss something with you guys later on: I think after Julian won the BOM, everybody finally agreed to play Ruric That, the Unbowed. With him, I feel that Fire Covenant is not as good anymore. Toxic Deluge would have killed my Delvers, too - but his entire board would have been emptied for 12 damage. No way this worked with Fire Covenant (in this case, would have needed 22 life). Martin has played well and deserved the win. He later on won the tournament and a Tropical Island.
1:2; 2:1

Fourth round: BUG Tempo with Benjamin
G1 I am otp and keep a hand with Delver, Daze and Wasteland and Goyf - so I am just bUrg. G2, I am also just bUrg. Really fast games, time for two cappuccino afterwards with beautiful waitresses...
2:0; 3:1

Fifth round: Lands
Game 1 I play Mongoose and Delver. His kill condition is Thespian Stage/ Dark Depths Combo. He is superbly happy and tells me that I do not have any answers to his combo maindeck...the following two turns, I show him that Stifle is a good card (activation of Thespian stage), Bolts and creatures go all the way. G2 he is lands, stalls the game with 2 Fife from the loam and I loose. G3 ends in extra turns. He asks me if I concede to him so he gets a higher spot in the top 8, which I deny.
1:1; 3:1.1

Result:
I finished sixth place out of 29 with 3:1.1, which is enough for a Thoughtseize - which I actually need for a deck. Extraordinarily good tournament organization (good Cappuccino, sweet waitresses and nice opponents. Deck was pure dope, but in my typical combo meta, I would not leave home without Spell Pierce in the main. I loved the cut in Nimble Mongoose to 3, he just comes a little bit later. I personally would not like to play the deck without him (also because of my sweet japfoils, I have to admit). The worst card in the deck was Fire Covenant. I will think about replacing it with engineered plague (easier to cast, no life loss) or toxic deluge (more flexible, but anti-synergistic with the deck's creatures).

Best,
Lurch

[Tormod]

Hi Lurch,

Welcome to the Source and the Thread

I've cut Fire Covenant myself even though its won me some games.
I've dropped Nimble Mongoose from my list, because I find it toug to reach threshold. It could be the abundance of DRS and graveyard hate in my meta, so I call my gooseless version "HeisenbUrg Delver" For me to run a goose, I would want to add the 8th fetch and find room for 2-3 probes.

I agree on the split between Snare and Pierce. I have cut down on the number of stifle. I'm running to 3, and I may cut a second one as well.
I'm running 2 Snare and 3 Pierce and 3 Stifle.

This is my list today

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dread of Night
1 Liliana of the Veil


I am brainstorming a build with goose again, this is what i would run

12 creatures
3 DRS
3 Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name

30 spells
4 Daze
4 FOW
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt decay
3 Gitaxian Probe

I've read some reports from GPDC and it seems that quite a few of the "tempo" decks cut stifle. The highest performing RUG deck went 13-2 and cut 2 stifles for the event in favour of 2 Chain lightning, after the event he went on to cut the 3rd to run a single stifle. Turtenwald cut Stifle from his winning decklist in favour of more Pierces Its off tempo to hold mana up for stifle when you could drop a delver, mongoose or DRS

I'm just not convinced Stifle is necessary as a 4 of.

[TheKingslayer]

Hi Lurch,

Welcome to the Source and the Thread

I've cut Fire Covenant myself even though its won me some games.
I've dropped Nimble Mongoose from my list, because I find it toug to reach threshold. It could be the abundance of DRS and graveyard hate in my meta, so I call my gooseless version "HeisenbUrg Delver" For me to run a goose, I would want to add the 8th fetch and find room for 2-3 probes.

I agree on the split between Snare and Pierce. I have cut down on the number of stifle. I'm running to 3, and I may cut a second one as well.
I'm running 2 Snare and 3 Pierce and 3 Stifle.

This is my list today

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dread of Night
1 Liliana of the Veil


I am brainstorming a build with goose again, this is what i would run

12 creatures
3 DRS
3 Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name

30 spells
4 Daze
4 FOW
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt decay
3 Gitaxian Probe

I've read some reports from GPDC and it seems that quite a few of the "tempo" decks cut stifle. The highest performing RUG deck went 13-2 and cut 2 stifles for the event in favour of 2 Chain lightning, after the event he went on to cut the 3rd to run a single stifle. Turtenwald cut Stifle from his winning decklist in favour of more Pierces Its off tempo to hold mana up for stifle when you could drop a delver, mongoose or DRS

I'm just not convinced Stifle is necessary as a 4 of.

If you're going to run Stifle, run 4. We aren't RUG, and the card is at it's best in our deck when you can drop a Deathrite turn one, follow it up with a threat while simultaneously holding counter AND stifle mana up. That's power.

[Tormod]

If you're going to run Stifle, run 4.

That's just nonsense that has been perpetuated through out the format. I agree turn 1 shaman is great, but in your example you say you can play a threat turn 2 and still have an open land for control. You can do that anyways with 2 lands in a tempo deck. Its not wrong to run 4, but its ridiculous to say anything less than 4 is wrong.


"Stifle is not where I want to be right now. It costs tempo to hold up, resulting in many cases where it would have been better to simply use mana and get further ahead. People make arguments that Stifle makes Daze better-and they’re right in some cases-but what they forget is that ruthlessly pressing your advantage by using all of your mana either deploying threats or digging for them also makes Daze better."
(http://manadeprived.com/best-ptq-season/)

[TheKingslayer]

That's just nonsense that has been perpetuated through out the format. I agree turn 1 shaman is great, but in your example you say you can play a threat turn 2 and still have an open land for control. You can do that anyways with 2 lands in a tempo deck. Its not wrong to run 4, but its ridiculous to say anything less than 4 is wrong.


"Stifle is not where I want to be right now. It costs tempo to hold up, resulting in many cases where it would have been better to simply use mana and get further ahead. People make arguments that Stifle makes Daze better-and they’re right in some cases-but what they forget is that ruthlessly pressing your advantage by using all of your mana either deploying threats or digging for them also makes Daze better."
(http://manadeprived.com/best-ptq-season/)


If you're holding mana up, it's usually for a counter or stifle anyway. I don't think more than 2 threats need to be deployed at one point in time. As well, there is a significant advantage to having a deck where almost every single threat costs one. I think Stifle is a fantastic card, and it's at it's strongest in the early game, which means running four will garner the highest probability of being able to use it in the first three turns on a land. As well, it has countless relevant targets that generate a lot of tempo for us later in the game. Also, despite being a tempo deck that wrecks mana bases, Stifle is sometimes incredibly essential in protecting our own glass mana base against opposing wastelands.

Foolish people will hold up stifle turn one instead of deploying a threat.

Ponder is the only blue spell that isn't an instant anyway, in which it would be debatable between holding up blue for stifle or pondering.

Deathrite activations are instant speed, so it's up to you as to wether or not stifling something during your opponent's turn or ending it with a deathrite activation is the better play.

Also, dropping too many threats can often be a huge loss of tempo, if you aren't holding your insurance plans (counterspells and stifles, or sometimes that second delver w/ FOW) for protecting your first flipped delver or active deathrite.


Edit. I don't think Gitaxian probe is good in this deck. It gives you really important information for free, but doesn't necessarily give you ways to deal with them. You may respond by saying that it cantrips and replaces itself, but the probability that it will draw you that really, really important Spell Snare is incredibly minute. I'd much rather calculate the probabilities and run more reactive answers in snare/pierce/stifle, because they actually generate tempo.

[Tormod]

@TheKingslayer


In your example, wouldn't your opponent just crack his fetchland after your EOT DRS activation making your stifle look bad? Everything you said has value and merit, and you seem committed to the idea of any less than 4 stifle as being correct. I can only recommend to try playing a few games without it, and running higher quality spells.

Mongoose is only an "ok" card without ways to boost your graveyard. Probes is good way to get an extra free card in the graveyard. As for your analysis that probe narrow minded. Its a free card, gives you information on how to play out your hand, and it replaces itself. You can't expect probe to be everything under the sun. In this case, we want to enable threshold that's the goal.

[Sasan]

Dear All,

I have never posted at the Source before - I am a long time reader but never actually bothered to participate. At a German forum, I posted a short tournament report which Sasan kindly asked me to share with fellow TheSource readers. As this is my first post here, I might make some mistakes in formatting or other forum conventions - please excuse that. Yesterday (Sunday, November 24th) I visited the local "Deck, Worscht unn' Woi" in a German city called Mainz. The tournament was one of a series of privately held monthly tournaments by a local Legacy club - a couple of friends that happen to love the format. We were 29 players and played 5 rounds.

I have been true to my love Canadian for the past two and a half years - but after having been extraordinarily unhappy with the deck at BOM 8 in Paris last month (a measly 5:4 in the main event), I decided to change my approach to tempo - my slightly adapted version of bUrg, which I neutrally called "German Thresh" in order not to cause any confusion.

This is the 75 I ran:

German Threshold:

12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

30 Spells
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

18 Land
4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

15 Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant

First round: Elves with Sebastian from Berlin
I recently moved to Berlin and only know a limited number of people from the local Legacy scene. Funny enough, my first round opponent was visiting for the weekend - Mainz is about 600km from Berlin...He was a nice chap, on we go.
Game 1 he is OTP. I play Volcanic, Delver and kept an otherwise land heavy hand with two wasteland - he goes into combo turn 2 ab and plays Ruric Thar as well as 5-6 elves. I scoop in order not to show him any more cards. Games 2 and 3 I draw a lot of meat, removal and counters - no way he could have managed, the games finish fast. Nice opponent and time for a cappuccino - Sweet.
2:1; 1:0

Second round: Grixis Reanimator with Christian
I have played against Chris and his personal (excellent) Grixis Reanimator Brew many times before with RUG tempo - and barely stood a chance. I know him well and we joke before the game - where I tell him that I brought 4 Grafdigger's Cage for him and his GY brew - sweat on his forehead, smile on my face.
Game 1 I play an early Mongoose which does not Thresh for what feels like an eternity. After a grindy 8 or 9 turns, he plays Reanimate on Griselbrand and smashes face. Game 2 is funny..I play Deathrite, next turn he answers it with Pithing Needle - in Response I Brainstorm and find Misty, Deathrite, Deathrite...no matter what, I play the small guys and a Delver, counter every discard spell he plays and he dies.
Game 3 I am much too greedy and play all 3 Deathrite Shamans, as well as a Cage hin (would have been dead to Explosives but wanted to close the game). Again, he draws his Needle and is superbly happy....until he sees the Ancient Grudge (Hello, leveling ftw ;)) I brought in. Three turns later, he scoops. No time for coffee, on with round 3
2:1 ; 2:0

Third round: Elves with Martin, who later won the tournament
The second time with elves starts for me with a mulligan to 5 (@Sasan, I checked my notes, not 6). Game 1, he is stuck on 2 lands in play and no plays - seems like he kept a hand with all fatties and NO (?!?). Delvers and Mongoose do their jobs.
Game 2 und 3 he is just elves. In G3 I have 2 flippet Delvers by turn 3 as well as Fire Covenant in Hand. He has the nuts and draws his entire Deck. This is where I'd like to discuss something with you guys later on: I think after Julian won the BOM, everybody finally agreed to play Ruric That, the Unbowed. With him, I feel that Fire Covenant is not as good anymore. Toxic Deluge would have killed my Delvers, too - but his entire board would have been emptied for 12 damage. No way this worked with Fire Covenant (in this case, would have needed 22 life). Martin has played well and deserved the win. He later on won the tournament and a Tropical Island.
1:2; 2:1

Fourth round: BUG Tempo with Benjamin
G1 I am otp and keep a hand with Delver, Daze and Wasteland and Goyf - so I am just bUrg. G2, I am also just bUrg. Really fast games, time for two cappuccino afterwards with beautiful waitresses...
2:0; 3:1

Fifth round: Lands
Game 1 I play Mongoose and Delver. His kill condition is Thespian Stage/ Dark Depths Combo. He is superbly happy and tells me that I do not have any answers to his combo maindeck...the following two turns, I show him that Stifle is a good card (activation of Thespian stage), Bolts and creatures go all the way. G2 he is lands, stalls the game with 2 Fife from the loam and I loose. G3 ends in extra turns. He asks me if I concede to him so he gets a higher spot in the top 8, which I deny.
1:1; 3:1.1

Result:
I finished sixth place out of 29 with 3:1.1, which is enough for a Thoughtseize - which I actually need for a deck. Extraordinarily good tournament organization (good Cappuccino, sweet waitresses and nice opponents. Deck was pure dope, but in my typical combo meta, I would not leave home without Spell Pierce in the main. I loved the cut in Nimble Mongoose to 3, he just comes a little bit later. I personally would not like to play the deck without him (also because of my sweet japfoils, I have to admit). The worst card in the deck was Fire Covenant. I will think about replacing it with engineered plague (easier to cast, no life loss) or toxic deluge (more flexible, but anti-synergistic with the deck's creatures).

Best,
Lurch

Thanks for your awesome tournament report. It is really appreciated.

[kiblast]

I think that the '' Run four copies of Stifle if you want to play Stifle'' argument is flawed. Because it should rather read '' Run four copies of Stifle.''. Seriously guys questioning Stifle right now is plain stupid. The card is the glue that holds your 3 colors or 4 colors tempo decks together. Running less than 4 in these decks is a mistake. It is the main tool you are supposed to use to create those infamous tempo micro gaps that, ultimately will win you the game. Between Miracles and the U based aggrocontrol decks shifting to midrange after TNN was printed Stifle is even more valuable. Combo? It's good vs Reanimator, incredibly good vs Dredge, fairly good vs Storm and Sneak Show. Good in the tempo mirror. Good vs Goblins and Dnt. How do you think you are going to protect your incredibly fragile four colour 18-lands mana base without Stifle? Remember this is legacy everybody except combo decks is on 4 Wastelands. Building tempo decks eschewing Stifle is like playing Top-less Miracles. That ain't gonna work.

Edit: please understand that I'm not advocating 4 Stifle haphazardly just because we are on the tempo plan and we are supposed to do that. I truly think that the card is simply too good and versatile not to be run as a 4 of in certain archetypes.

[Sasan]

killblast is right. UWR Delver will learn the lesson that their stifle less builds are wrong - just like RUG did after they fell for Drew Levin.

[Tormod]

Hate to use the old "look at the facts" trick, but here ya go

Friedman 0 stifles wins the SCG before GPDC
Turtenwald 0 stifles wins GPDC
The top 16 of GPDC had a total of 6 copies of stifle split between TWO deck
The last SCG the top 16 had ZERO copies of stifle including the 3 Delver decks.

Maybe the European meta is that different that you have the "4 stifle rule" but that kind of thinking doesn't jive in my neck of the woods.

[lavafrogg]

Those are just the facts. Who cares about them?

[kiblast]

So a couple of top 8s all made in the last few weeks (and we all are aware that net decking doesn't exist right) can whitstand years of tempo deck building from other players all over the world… sure.

[Quasim0ff]

So a couple of top 8s all made in the last few weeks (and we all are aware that net decking doesn't exist right) can whitstand years of tempo decks… sure.

There was a period, some years ago, where people also cut stifles.

Just like everything, it goes up and down.

*The reason people get behind cutting stifles,is that people are already playing as if the opponent has it. And then, when they don't at all, it's a huge tempo victory.

[TheKingslayer]

UWR isn't a tempo deck in the sense that we are. They are very mid-range based and run away with games with the great chasm that a Batterskull builds between life totals against an opponent. They don't need stifles with Nemesis/Geist and Stoneforge.

Edit: The stifle argument is being based off of a related, but different archetype if the claim is being based around UWR's presence. They also run Swords to Plowshares...

[Einherjer]

There was a period, some years ago, where people also cut stifles.

Just like everything, it goes up and down.

*The reason people get behind cutting stifles,is that people are already playing as if the opponent has it. And then, when they don't at all, it's a huge tempo victory.

Care stating this fact to a Miracle Pilot? I wanna see where your "huge tempo victory" is when I consistently wipe your board and Flash Angels in - without having to fear Stifle.... or having to fear Stifle, but none coming... Tell the Living Weapon Trigger to stay at home, cause you could have had Stifle, tell the Combo decks Fetchland to fail in finding a Land, cause basically you could have had a Stifle...

Playing less than 4 Stifles makes this deck obsolete, whereas playing 4 is perfect and the deck is strong.

Greetings

[Quasim0ff]

Care stating this fact to a Miracle Pilot? I wanna see where your "huge tempo victory" is when I consistently wipe your board and Flash Angels in - without having to fear Stifle.... or having to fear Stifle, but none coming... Tell the Living Weapon Trigger to stay at home, cause you could have had Stifle, tell the Combo decks Fetchland to fail in finding a Land, cause basically you could have had a Stifle...

Playing less than 4 Stifles makes this deck obsolete, whereas playing 4 is perfect and the deck is strong.

Greetings
I am supporting stifle, 100%.

I am saying that, when people play against builds that usually has stifle, but then suddenly don't, and they don't change their way of playing… Yeah, well…
You suddenly got a tempo advantage, from playing ie. 4x spell pierce. When trying to play around stifle, you open up yourself to other spells…

As soon as this becomes the trend, stifle goes up in value again. :)

(I DON'T suggest cutting stifle! Storm/Miracles just gets so much harder to play against).

[Tormod]

I am saying that, when people play against builds that usually has stifle, but then suddenly don't, and they don't change their way of playing… Yeah, well…
You suddenly got a tempo advantage, from playing ie. 4x spell pierce. When trying to play around stifle, you open up yourself to other spells…
^^^
Exactly this.

No one is debating if Stifle is good or not, Clearly it is because Legacy good. But its value goes up and down.

What the deeper discussion is, if Stifle is an auto 4 or none. I think its false to say MUST play 4 or don't play any at all. I can pay 3 stifles and 3 spell pierce over 4 stifles and 2 spell pierce, and its just silly to say that one is with more stifles is strictly better.

I use the UWR in the example because that's the one Sasan brought up. RUG hasn't been the same since TNN came out so I don't have any recent top 8 lists to show you other that what I have mentioned. 2 RUG builds, one with 2 stifle and one with 4 stifle.

[Sasan]

Einherjer already mentionned where Stifle reigns supreme. Note that the psychological value of not having Stilfe but let the opponent think we have Stifles can be used in post-board games like against Maverick, Merfolk etc. where you board out Stifles for value. But otherwise we need 4 Stifles.

I cannot stress it any more but we are a FOUR color deck that happens to be mana screwed from time to time. bUrg is not playable at all without the ability to protect the mana base from opposing Wastelands.

The RUG built with only 2 Stifles has had a good placing at the GP but that does not mean the list was good. The player skill outshined the miserable main deck choices. If you want to play Stifle, play 4, if you don't want, don't play bUrg. You can play RUG without Stifles somehow (it is not advised) if you run 19 lands and additional cantrips - just like Saito did a year ago.

bUrg needs 4 Stifles and at least 3 Deathrite Shamans to be a deck and not a pile of garbage. The rest is somehow debatable. You have already seen that the creature base for example is flexible (that explains the 3 different lists we had featured in the primer during the last couple of days - these are somehow flex slots that are playstyle/taste dependent and do not change the MU percentages dramatically).

I am glad that we have a good and solid discussion going on here with good arguments. Just keep that up.

[TheKingslayer]

Care stating this fact to a Miracle Pilot? I wanna see where your "huge tempo victory" is when I consistently wipe your board and Flash Angels in - without having to fear Stifle.... or having to fear Stifle, but none coming... Tell the Living Weapon Trigger to stay at home, cause you could have had Stifle, tell the Combo decks Fetchland to fail in finding a Land, cause basically you could have had a Stifle...

Playing less than 4 Stifles makes this deck obsolete, whereas playing 4 is perfect and the deck is strong.

Greetings

Agreed. The living weapon trigger is one of the most important triggers in this game for us.

[kiblast]

It just takes an Inquisition of Kozilek or a Gitaxian Probe to see if you have Stifle or not. Your huge tempo mind trick fails after few turns against good opponents.
Also consider that to bluff Stifle you need to stay U open all the time… can you afford to play with one less land just because you want to bluff something?

4 Stifle is the correct amount in UGR and UGRx tempo decks.Not playing it and just bluffing it all the time is not an option.

[Sasan]

It just takes an Inquisition of Kozilek or a Gitaxian Probe to see if you have Stifle or not. Your huge tempo mind trick fails after few turns against good opponents.
Also consider that to bluff Stifle you need to stay U open all the time… can you afford to play with one less land just because you want to bluff something?

4 Stifle is the correct amount in UGR and UGRx tempo decks.Not playing it and just bluffing it all the time is not an option.

Agreed but postboard it can be boarded out versus Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity etc...It is not always an untouchable Spell in games 2 and 3. And those decks I mentionned do not play Probes and Discard spells. During the first turns I try to hold open mana anyway for Spell Snares or removal if I don't have early Shaman/Delver. So the mind trick works there perfectly.

[kiblast]

Agreed but postboard it can be boarded out versus Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity etc...It is not always an untouchable Spell in games 2 and 3. And those decks I mentionned do not play Probes and Discard spells. During the first turns I try to hold open mana anyway for Spell Snares or removal if I don't have early Shaman/Delver. So the mind trick works there perfectly.

Of course post side is sideable out. I'm not 100% sold on siding it out vs Maverick but for sure I would vs affinity.
I'm not saying that the mind trick doesn't work. It works. But I'm saying that its counterproductive to bluff Stifle when you are not playing it (as someone was suggesting before).

[lordofthepit]

I wouldn't dismiss any decks that cut Stifle as being strictly suboptimal, but I don't think I'd ever play a tempo deck without it. It gives too many free wins when your opponent stumbles, and the threat of Stifle forces your opponent to play suboptimally when he doesn't have access to perfect information.

I think UWR Delver can get away without Stifles because Batterskull, Jitte, and True-Name Nemesis are still live cards that allow you to compete in the mid to late game even if your opponent can develop his mana, but I would probably switch decks before cutting them from RUG or bURG. My two cents.

[lurch]

Not that I want to pour any more oil into the fire...I am also a strong proponent of Stifle and could not imagine bUrg without it. However, I would be highly interested in an experiment of thought: With the four slots available from cutting Stifle, what could be added and where would it take the deck?

I could imagine (for example) +1 Nimble Mongoose, +2 Gitaxian Probe, +1 Spell Pierce. I guess we would also have to think about the remainder of the deck then, and not just the four slots in a vacuum. For example, Spell Pierce would be required to answer opposing Stifles, and the 3 Spell Snares become less good and so on. One might also consider adding an Island to the manabase.

Anyone else interested in exploring this line of thought?

[Tormod]

Not that I want to pour any more oil into the fire...I am also a strong proponent of Stifle and could not imagine bUrg without it. However, I would be highly interested in an experiment of thought: With the four slots available from cutting Stifle, what could be added and where would it take the deck?

I could imagine (for example) +1 Nimble Mongoose, +2 Gitaxian Probe, +1 Spell Pierce. I guess we would also have to think about the remainder of the deck then, and not just the four slots in a vacuum. For example, Spell Pierce would be required to answer opposing Stifles, and the 3 Spell Snares become less good and so on. One might also consider adding an Island to the manabase.

Anyone else interested in exploring this line of thought?

No fire to put out, this is good healthy discussion. :)

Everyone should express their ideas, that's how we evolve. (We also need to keep in mind regional variance in each person's meta)

But let me get back to when I brought up the discussion on Stifle. The whole reason why the discussion went in this direction was because I cut Nimble mongoose from my list because bUrg is slow to reach threshold. Compared to RUG, they have 1 more fetchland and 3 gitaxian probes to turn on Threshold by turn 2. Yes it still has shroud, but we can agree as a 1/1 its just not impressive. So in looking for slots that would help boost the threshold plan, i didn't want to go lower than 12 creatures, and i didn't want to play less than 2 pierce and 2 snares, i didn't want less than 4 daze or 4 FOW, I "could" cut down to 1 abrupt decay, but I didn't want to do that either. Since some lists have been having success without stifle, its seems like a reasonable avenue to explore.

I went 4-0 at my last event with gooseless "HeisenbUrg" build running 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2 Goyf, 2 Truename, so playing without goose isn't as crazy as it sounds, especially considering that we have other options for difficult to kill creatures. I should mention in that event I had rest in peace cast against me 3 times and a few DRS battles so there is no absence of graveyard hate in my meta.

Right now I'm still off the goose plan, which means that I am running stifle. BUT for tomorrow's weekly Legacy, I will cut down to 3 stifle to run 3 spell pierce.

Here's a peak at my list for tomorrow

4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Goyf
2 TNN

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 daze
3 stifle
3 spell pierce
2 spell snare
2 abrupt decay
4 lighting bolt

[Tormod]

The RUG built with only 2 Stifles has had a good placing at the GP but that does not mean the list was good. The player skill outshined the miserable main deck choices. If you want to play Stifle, play 4, if you don't want, don't play bUrg. You can play RUG without Stifles somehow (it is not advised) if you run 19 lands and additional cantrips - just like Saito did a year ago.

You really can't say the choices are miserable. Its more important to understand the choices and how they worked rather than to attach a value.

I talked with Glenn (the 13-2 RUG player) on the Wednesday following, he's a regular at my Legacy nights. He is a very very good player and is a Canadian Threshold specialist. He consulted with a number of Canadian pros (David Caplan, Alexander Hayne, Jesse Moulton, Sammy T., Mike Vasovski, Morgan McLaughlin, and Andrew Van Leeuwen.) He was the highest placing Canadian at the event. I talked to him about his list and some of his choices and his reasoning was good and his performance was proof of his choices and skill.

You can read some of is explanations here.

http://manadeprived.com/best-ptq-season/

[kiblast]

If you want to try a Stifleless build you are automatically porting the deck in the Mid range area even more. So you need a slightly better manabase, and some tools to fight with other (better) midrange decks.
Consider that (as correctly stated above) UWr can go Stifleless because they are already more midrange- ish than URG or URGx. Between Sfm and Geist ors TNN their late game is actually good.

If I were to cut Stifles, I'd probably run these cards in the 4 empty slots:

1 additional land (Creeping Tar Pit)
1 additional decay
1 additional beater (TNN probably or the 4th Goyf if you are not running it already) or Vendilion Clique which acts both as a beater and disruption piece
1 tool that shines in mid late game, like a Sylvan Library, a Loam or a Jtms.

OR, you could just go UGRx Cascade, crazy deck (like this one (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10080&iddeck=73454) I played a while ago )

[Pdingo]

@Kibalast

Oh yeah and then we cut Dazes and Delver and adding Shardless Agents and Jaces and Play shardless BUG..No really why we should cut stifle??? That's so a bad move. Then it's not Tempo anymore..And should not written on this Treath. ;)

[kiblast]

@Kibalast

Oh yeah and then we cut Dazes and Delver and adding Shardless Agents and Jaces and Play shardless BUG..No really why we should cut stifle??? That's so a bad move. Then it's not Tempo anymore..And should not written on this Treath. ;)

Are you kidding me?

Just read the last few posts. People were suggesting cutting Stifles and, while I disagree completely, I was proposing new scenarios they could explore if they want to cut Stifle. I'm not going to cut Stifle and I'm not suggesting it.

Edit.Try to look further than your nose, we were having this conversation about cutting Stifles since the last 10+ posts or so, and me and the others clearly stated our positions. Mine was,and still is, that cutting Stifles is a mistake. But it doesn't mean that we can't have conversation on how the scenario would be if we cut Stifle. Which, again, I'm not suggesting.

Shall we move on?

[Tormod]

Alright, lets not get too ahead of ourselves.

I want to open this question up:

Is stifle a meta call?
Is is acceptable to play less than 4 stifles?

[Sasan]

If you want to cut Stifle (not advised) I could see a compromise in running 3. Less than 3 just does not seem to work.


I read the article about the RUG player with the 2-Stifle built (thanks for the link) but his explanation does not make any sense: He says that he wants to protect his mana base and therefore played 2 Stifles. 2 is not the right number to handle early Wastelands.


Regarding if Stifle is a meta call I would say the tempo definition is having a Daze/Force/Stifle package with cheap beaters and low land count. So if Stifles were a meta call tempo decks at all would be meta calls. And that is true. Tempo decks have been good for years as the meta has not changed that much for them to become bad. If everyone played midrange decks and if there were no combo players Stifle and tempo decks would die.

[Water_Wizard]

I played against Manaless Dredge last night (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid&p=765808&viewfull=1#post765808 - not this exact deck, but similar) and lost 0-2 matches, 2-4 games. I didn't really feel like there was much that I could do to combat Manaless Dredge.

Perhaps the lack of graveyard hate is a meta-decision. Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman have held the graveyard decks in check. However, Manaless Ichorid has Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian - basically, Manaless Dredge's gameplan is to draw, discard, dredge. Manaless Dredge always plays last (if you win the roll against them, you choose to play last). I would drop a DRS, Manaless Dredge would draw and discard. I would target the discarded creature with DRS and he would cycle Street Wraith (I did not have Stifle mana open), returning the dredger to his hand and filling his graveyard. Or, he would discard Phantasmagorian and discard 3 or 6 cards (holding priority and activating Phantasmagorian's ability twice), returning Phantasmagorian and overloading his 'yard.

I felt totally helpless in the match up. I realize that Manaless Dredge is about .5% of the meta, but what can we do to make this match-up better?

[Tormod]

If you have much dredge in your meta, i would consider a single graft diggers cage in the side

[Water_Wizard]

If you have much dredge in your meta, i would consider a single graft diggers cage in the side

What does and doesn't GDC stop? Narcomeba trigger, Ichorid trigger, Nether Spirit trigger? It stops Dread Return, GSZ, Natural Order, Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead, and Unburial Rites.

[menace13]

If you have much dredge in your meta, i would consider a single graft diggers cage in the side

If there was much dredge it would pay off to have more than a single cage as your only hate card-DRS excluded-.
Also, your fucking name is tormod. And you're touting Cage. You should be ashamed of yourself