[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[pe5e]

I got bored yesterday and didnt want to play Miracles or Esper Blade so i just threw together a new burg list:

2 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce

4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

It workerd really well in the matches and Green Sun's Zenith was awesome every time i drew it. Nimble Mongoose is still the best card in the deck and Green Sun's Zenith allows you to play 3 copies without having goose when you dont want him( TNN, Goyf, Stalker etc.). But you also have the option to tutor up a Shaman which is helpful against Reanimator and other graveyard decks or you can just use it to fix your mana. The Sb was a minute choice and there sure is space for improvement but 2 grudes and 2 Golgari Charm are set for me.

[anakyn]

I tested a bit the BUG matchup with YP configuration (with 2 forked bolt in place of f/i and Edric) and it seemed to me BURG is pretty far ahead.
Mana denial + early burn works great as always, and Pyromancer is way better than Goyf in this matchup.
They have lots of trouble trying to stabilyze the board.

I won 7 games out of 9 overall.

[Tom]

In my play testing the worst creature really seems to be Delver.
It gets killed super fast even through counter backup and mostly gets pitched to FoW.

My question is: Can we do without him and play

4 DRS
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 YP

for our creature suite or do you think Delver is (still) an auto- inclusion?

[anakyn]

In my play testing the worst creature really seems to be Delver.
It gets killed super fast even through counter backup and mostly gets pitched to FoW.

My question is: Can we do without him and play

4 DRS
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 YP

for our creature suite or do you think Delver is (still) an auto- inclusion?

Honestly I think Delver is a no-brainer inclusion in a tempo deck where half cards can make it flip.

[Tormod]

'Spy Kids' (What Eric Rill calls the YP deck)

Is a Grixis splash green deck for DRS. This is why there is 0 copies of abrupt decay, goose or goyf. It also let's you play around Submerge very easily, and all your threats are a different color and is attacking on a different axis than each other.

I played the deck again at a local side event @ a PTQ (SB -1 Misdirection, -1 Mizzium Skin, -1 Submerge, + 2 Spell Pierce, +1 Jitte)

Match 1 I drew god hands against dredge. 1-0
Match 2 Vs Elves, Game 3 ended on turns with me and a drs equipped with a Jitte against an empty board. 1-0-1
Match 3 vs bUrg w 4 Truename, game 3 goes to time with both of us with no creatures in play 1-0-2
Match 4 I defeat the Mirror (TNN instead of edric). 2-0-2
Match 5 vs UWR Delver. Game 1 I get blown out by stifle.... Game 2 I draw nothing. 2-1-2, I drop because I can't top 8 now.

I was likely playing too slow, as a result of my draws. I find the deck pretty complex, with so many lines available. I'm going to keep testing. I'm fascinated by the number of decisions available to this deck.

[Water_Wizard]

http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Deck/189919

RE: "Spy Kids" - I know that everyone loves the G splash, but what's wrong with this Grixis deck?

I guess it depends on if you want the option to flex between Reanimator and beat down or just focus on pure beat down.

[sawatarix]

Beatdown with just 4 young pyromancers?
They are gonna die pretty quickly i guess


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[TheKingslayer]

Beatdown with just 4 young pyromancers?
They are gonna die pretty quickly i guess


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Agreed. x/1 creature is going to die really quickly in this meta. I'm surprised he was successful. Mongoose is such an underrated house. No respect. No respect...

[Tormod]

I grow tired of these negative dismissive opinion from self proclaimed experts.

Why do you guys post? To stroke your own egos or to actually explore other people's ideas?

[Water_Wizard]

I grow tired of these negative dismissive opinion from self proclaimed experts.

Why do you guys post? To stroke your own egos or to actually explore other people's ideas?

Who's being dismissive and self-proclaimed?

[TheKingslayer]

I grow tired of these negative dismissive opinion from self proclaimed experts.

Why do you guys post? To stroke your own egos or to actually explore other people's ideas?

I've simply had some pretty good success at the two SCG's I brought my list to, and having played Legacy for the past twelve years, I feel like I hold a good perspective on the format. I'm not saying that young pyromancer is a horrible decision, but it does force you to be more proactive than most tempo lists want to be. As well, being an x/1 in the land of Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charms seems risky. However, free Cabal Therapies are very powerful. Also, Eric Rill performed really well with it (obviously,) so that can discount some of my argument. I'm simply stating the parameters from which we are operating, and what I perceive to be the optimal manner from which to approach the deck's construction in the current metagame.

[sawatarix]

I played against Pe5e (who posted a list above)
With storm and i lost several games,so his list is at least well suited against combo,that's for sure.

However i kinda dislike the creatures in the deck,2 nimble mongoose looks pretty poor.at least i would run 3 geese and 0 gsz.
Gsz was initially ment to be the 5. goose because it's so good :-)




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[.Ix]

I grow tired of these negative dismissive opinion from self proclaimed experts.

Why do you guys post? To stroke your own egos or to actually explore other people's ideas?

This is The Source, man - everyone is an expert. Because everyone is so good, nobody explores other people's ideas unless those people top 8 several times in 200+ player tournaments. Without consistent success in huge tournaments that might not even exist in your area, how can you even prove that your idea is worth testing?

[Tormod]

Looks like another Spy Kids list top 8'd SCG Legacy yesterday.

But since all the so called source experts here have made up their mind, theres nothing to talk about.

[pe5e]

I played against Pe5e (who posted a list above)
With storm and i lost several games,so his list is at least well suited against combo,that's for sure.

However i kinda dislike the creatures in the deck,2 nimble mongoose looks pretty poor.at least i would run 3 geese and 0 gsz.
Gsz was initially ment to be the 5. goose because it's so good :-)




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Slightly changed my list( -1 Fetch + Sylvan Library) above. The list still is a bust! If you really really want to play 4 Goose then cut the Library for it. But Zenith stays for me for sure. Having the option to choose between Goyf, Goose or Shaman is a fexibile option I dont want to miss. Another ascpect for me is that Zenith increases your creature count without having to play more creatures. If you zenith for a threat Zenith gets reshuffled so you still have the exact same number of threats left in your deck. It adds a shuffle effect for cantrips, flips delver and lets you play around Spell snare/Chalice of the Void/Counterbalance. Sure, Goose is amazing and i totally stand behind that, but for me 3 goose are enough since he is so hard to kill and we have 8 cantrips to find it. Goose #3 would be worse in some MUs too( for example Combo).

As for the SB: I still play the same as above but i think about cutting Counterspell for another Golgari Charm. That card is just so good! Besides Plague wind the Opponent, you can overextend into Supreme Verdict, Pernicious Deed or EE, dodge Abrupt Decay and killing every echantment this deck has problems with( Choke, Rest in Peace, Counterbalance, Sneak Attack, Blood Moon etc.).

[say no to scurvy]

From today's CF, LSV playing a bUrg brew with bobs, bolts, and TNNs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBrY1bIqzlI&list=PL04lbfeNAaS-v3ZtV491NdgRO29A-lvlN)

[Lemnear]

From today's CF, LSV playing a bUrg brew with bobs, bolts, and TNNs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBrY1bIqzlI&list=PL04lbfeNAaS-v3ZtV491NdgRO29A-lvlN)

The list was just soooooo bad lol

[pe5e]

The list was just soooooo bad lol

Its LSV. He can win with a potatoe.

[TheKingslayer]

Looks like another Spy Kids list top 8'd SCG Legacy yesterday.

But since all the so called source experts here have made up their mind, theres nothing to talk about.

Man, I'm only stating why I don't believe it fits well within the parameters of the environment or the deck. I said that "it seems bad," not that "it is bad" or that "it's not worth testing." I'm open to being wrong, but I also think it's important to challenge beliefs with assessment and support from critical, logical assessments. If there is anybody who is dismissive, it appears to be you. You also seem to be looking to incite arguments and condescending, passive-aggressive remarks denoting anyone else's opinions. Instead of simply posting simple reports of every single time you go more than 1-x in a weekly four round tournament, why don't you contribute some valuable assessments of your card choices and these 4-color delver lists that have top 8'ed in the past two weeks? Why are certain things working in these lists or your lists, and why not? What is failing you? What is exceeding your expectations? What is beating your deck? It appears to have some merit, as there has been success, so maybe I should try it out. However, you appear to be the one who isn't open to opinions. I think we're simply trying to challenge the choices that have been made and open up a healthy discussion.

[Lemnear]

Its LSV. He can win with a potatoe.

Tbh, his opponent in match 1 (the only one I watched) played like shit. Sorry.

[sawatarix]

15 one offs including 1 hymn to tourach and so on ?
Best entertainment :-)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MTB]

Hi all,
i started playing the Deck 3/4 year ago and tried different lists here is my current:

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Nimble Mungoose
1 TNN
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spellsnare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:
1 Loam
1 Grudge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Bitterblossom
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Flusterstorm
1 X

I'm not that happy about the 2 Mungoos because i had a lot of Games when i had no ******** and two mungoos. I am thinking about cutting all and adding 2 Spellpierce but then i only have 1 Shroud guy with TNN...
The guy i like most is Snapcaster i rarely side him out and he doubles close to all Sideboard cards.

My Meta is very mixed but the most played are Sneak Show, Miracle and Death and Taxes. I hate the Sneak Show Matchup the easy solution would be to replace Snares with Pierce but Thalia, Stoneforge and Counterbalance are also hard so mayby - 2 Goyf/Goose + 2 Pierce?
I am looking forward to your ideas :)

regards M

[sawatarix]

You play the deck for 3 or 4 years?
Wow,great!
I mean the deck was invented by carsten linden and the german legacy crew during grand prix strassbourg last year.
But nice to hear that some people had the same idea generations before.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

You play the deck for 3 or 4 years?
Wow,great!
I mean the deck was invented by carsten linden and the german legacy crew during grand prix strassbourg last year.
But nice to hear that some people had the same idea generations before.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

3/4 of a year = 9 months

Grab a coffee, Kai

[sawatarix]

Too early in the morning i guess,thx buddy


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MTB]

eah I ment 9 months. Sorry my English skills are not that great :(

[Water_Wizard]

eah I ment 9 months. Sorry my English skills are not that great :(

Regardless, we should not be nitpicking about irrelevant issues.

Here is a list that did well in a MTGO daily on 4/22. This list blends the traditional bUrg list (created by carsten linden and the german legacy crew during grand prix strassbourg last year) with Eric Rill's "Spy Kids," which has seen recent success in the SCG circuit.

Thoughts on this list?

1 Badlands
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Threads of Disloyalty

This list was piloted by "sad strong," who I believe is Todd Anderson irl.

[sawatarix]

Generally:
The deck strategy remains the same ,just the creatures changed and some spells to support the creatures (for example young pyromancer + gitaxian probe)

The main question is:
What is better right now,Nimble Mongoose,Tarmogoyf and True-Name Nemesis or Dark Confidant and Young Pyromancer?




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[JosephK]

The advantage of Young Pyromancer over the other threats is that Decay, Swords, Liliana, don't stop the aggression, reason why Rug went out of favor for a while. But Tarmogoyf/Shardless Agent/Batterskull, mainly, do. You just have to find a way to deal with them, which is easier than dealing with decay. Golgari Charm has to be considered post side, but this one we can counter.
I consider that tarmogoyf can result in a "timewalk" for the opponent : you tap 2, then the opponent plays decay/swords (hard to counter), and you're back to the point you were before. But the opponent drew 1 card and maybe landed. This is very problematic in a tempo deck playing stifle. (Dark confident has the same problem, and doesn't apply pressure.. I don't like this card in a tempo deck that plays stifle).

What I don't like about YP : what happens if you can't deal with Tarmogoyf ? Post side, I should have 3, or even 4 submerge for bug decks. The other thing is : YP has to be played as fast as possible to be efficient. This can be problematic, when you're trying to stifle your opponent. This is, I guess, the hard part of playing the deck. But here the probes are very useful ; you have to play them before YP in this case. No problem though, since you draw 1 card.
If you're on the top deck mode, YP is bad, but anyway, if you get there, you're not in a good position.


So the main concern I have now : Nimble Mongoose or Young Pyromancer ?

Nimble Mongoose is very similar to YP : it has shroud, but is weak against tarmogoyf/Batterskull. It allows us to keep 1 open to snare/stifle unlike yp (snare is not very good in a yp deck for that reason) and golgari charm in the sb.
But it doesn't bring enough pressure sometimes. The opponent doesn't have to deal with it if you don't have thresh, and this allows him to just land go for a few turns. And if you run something like 3 DRS 4 Mongoose, the only real pressure you have early is delver. Especially when the opponent runs grave hate. I would have no problem playing Mongoose if I could play 5-6 delvers^^.

What are your thoughts ?

[Lemnear]

The advantage of Young Pyromancer over the other threats is that Decay, Swords, Liliana, don't stop the aggression, reason why Rug went out of favor for a while. But Tarmogoyf/Shardless Agent/Batterskull, mainly, do. You just have to find a way to deal with them, which is easier than dealing with decay. Golgari Charm has to be considered post side, but this one we can counter.
I consider that tarmogoyf can result in a "timewalk" for the opponent : you tap 2, then the opponent plays decay/swords (hard to counter), and you're back to the point you were before. But the opponent drew 1 card and maybe landed. This is very problematic in a tempo deck playing stifle. (Dark confident has the same problem, and doesn't apply pressure.. I don't like this card in a tempo deck that plays stifle).

What I don't like about YP : what happens if you can't deal with Tarmogoyf ? Post side, I should have 3, or even 4 submerge for bug decks. The other thing is : YP has to be played as fast as possible to be efficient. This can be problematic, when you're trying to stifle your opponent. This is, I guess, the hard part of playing the deck. But here the probes are very useful ; you have to play them before YP in this case. No problem though, since you draw 1 card.
If you're on the top deck mode, YP is bad, but anyway, if you get there, you're not in a good position.


So the main concern I have now : Nimble Mongoose or Young Pyromancer ?

Nimble Mongoose is very similar to YP : it has shroud, but is weak against tarmogoyf/Batterskull. It allows us to keep 1 open to snare/stifle unlike yp (snare is not very good in a yp deck for that reason) and golgari charm in the sb.
But it doesn't bring enough pressure sometimes. The opponent doesn't have to deal with it if you don't have thresh, and this allows him to just land go for a few turns. And if you run something like 3 DRS 4 Mongoose, the only real pressure you have early is delver. Especially when the opponent runs grave hate. I would have no problem playing Mongoose if I could play 5-6 delvers^^.

What are your thoughts ?

My thoughts? You should get an idea how to use the term "to timewalk" within the game. Playing a 2cc creature into a 1-2cc removal is not "timewalking" in terms of stealing your opponent a whole turn or get a free attack because you tie his whole mana for a turn. RUG didn't face a problem because of Decay, otherwise it would have had Problem with Swords to Plowshares for more than a decade. The Problem is TNN which you can't block or overcome with Goose or Goyf.

YP is a victim to any removal in the format starting with StoP down to Disfigure. The one or two 1/1 elementals you get till YP is killed offer no pressure your tempo deck needs and the Token engine don't get you past any creature in the format. Calling this shroud is another misused term like timewalking.

[JosephK]

My thoughts? You should get an idea how to use the term "to timewalk" within the game. Playing a 2cc creature into a 1-2cc removal is not "timewalking" in terms of stealing your opponent a whole turn or get a free attack because you tie his whole mana for a turn. RUG didn't face a problem because of Decay, otherwise it would have had Problem with Swords to Plowshares for more than a decade. The Problem is TNN which you can't block or overcome with Goose or Goyf.

YP is a victim to any removal in the format starting with StoP down to Disfigure. The one or two 1/1 elementals you get till YP is killed offer no pressure your tempo deck needs and the Token engine don't get you past any creature in the format. Calling this shroud is another misused term like timewalking.

Hmm, i explained the term "timewalk" (you tap 2, then the opponent plays decay/swords (hard to counter), and you're back to the point you were before. But the opponent drew 1 card and maybe landed. This is very problematic in a tempo deck playing stifle). When you play a tempo deck, you want to end the deck as early as possible. The term timewalk is easy to understand... Use something else if you want.
Decay was one of the reason of the fall of Rug, among other things (shaman, tnn yes).

Did you test YP ? It looks like you didn't. It's a "shroud"-like creature and i explained why, especially post side with submerge. Test it.

It is a very constructive post you did there.

[Lemnear]

Hmm, i explained the term "timewalk" (you tap 2, then the opponent plays decay/swords (hard to counter), and you're back to the point you were before. But the opponent drew 1 card and maybe landed. This is very problematic in a tempo deck playing stifle). When you play a tempo deck, you want to end the deck as early as possible. The term timewalk is easy to understand... Use something else if you want.
Decay was one of the reason of the fall of Rug, among other things (shaman, tnn yes).

Did you test YP ? It looks like you didn't. It's a "shroud"-like creature and i explained why, especially post side with submerge. Test it.

It is a very constructive post you did there.

I have a problem with the term "timewalk" if your opponent likely Decays/Bolts/StoP's Tarmogoyf either end of turn or in his turn and Drops a threat like Delver himself. To specify: a 2cc creature being removed by an 1cc instant is a bad Tempo play from your perspective here too.

I see a conceptional Problem with YP as you can't use your early mana and cantrips to gain control of the game and drop a threat later to close out the game fast (like with Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker) but have to play YP early and keep your cantrips/stifles/Wastelands back so your opponent can actually set his feet into the game which is counterintuitive. Even if you manage to untap with YP in the game you have to decide if you either burn mana and cantrips to create a clock or try to Ride a 2/1 (and occasional one or two elementals after countering some spells) slowly for another 6 turns (IF opponent can't handle him in like 6 fucking turns). I doubt you want to drag every game beyond like turn 8 with such a deck and scoop to every Terminus or Golgari Charm which are already the Checkpoints for current creatures.

I don't like the idea to control games with YP on the back of Submerge if the obvious Problem RUG had with the meta was not getting Goyf decayed but TNN being untouchable if you don't have REB available to counter it.

[Water_Wizard]

I'm glad that we finally got a constructive conversation going, despite a few transgressions.

Using the standard combo / control / aggro triangle, I'll give my thoughts on Goyf/NM/TNN vs. YP

Combo
Goyf and YP are about the same, with YP getting a slight nod for it's ability to ultimately do more damage and possibly block goblin tokens. NM is generally too slow vs. combo. TNN is also too slow and should come out vs. combo, despite being a U card for FOW.

Aggro
Goyf and TNN are better vs. the current 'aggro' meta. YP gets 2nd due to its ability to make a bunch of tokens to block or evade blockers. NM is not very good vs. aggro unless the game goes long.

Control
NM is hands down the best because it evades spot removal. TNN is 2nd. YP is a close 3rd. Goyf is last due to the fact that it suffers from spot removal and graveyard hate.

One potential advantage of YP is that it would allow you to cut G and run Grixis, although most players choose to keep G for DRS +2 and Abrupt Decay, and sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge, Life from the Loam, and Sylvan Library.

[sawatarix]

2 weeks ago i played a grixis tempo deck (say burg delver without goose but yp.)
in a local tournament and finished 2nd.
The manabase got a bit better and i crushed miracle,ant,elves,foodchain and lost to elves.

Still not sure about yp over goose,sometimes yp felt pretty clunky to be honest



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[pe5e]

I think Lemnear pretty much said all about why Pyromancer is worse in almost any MU. Getting 1 or 2 tokens before Pyromancer dies isnt a big enough upside for the lot of downsides( like a horrible topdeck, he most of the time cant attack, you cant play Golgari Charm or you have to play something like Gitaxian Probe instead of better cards to make it even playable). I cant understand why someone should say removel is the problem( hint: it is not). In MU with a lot of removel Mongoose and Goyf are the best threats because they produce the most pressure very fast while being immune to most removel.

[sawatarix]

Ya,Tarmogoyf is at least half-hexproof (he survives any kind of bolt-spells/punishing fire)





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Water_Wizard]

Hey guys,
I saw this list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13663&iddeck=100390 and I thought that I would try to breath some new life into this thread. It's an interesting mix, running W for SFM and STP. No Goose, no Goyf, no Abrupt Decay. I haven't play tested with it yet, but I plan to give it a whirl shortly.
David

[Megadeus]

That mana base is horrifyingly bad. I beat him simplyon the back of land hate in the Swiss.

[JPoJohnson]

Hey guys,
I saw this list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13663&iddeck=100390 and I thought that I would try to breath some new life into this thread. It's an interesting mix, running W for SFM and STP. No Goose, no Goyf, no Abrupt Decay. I haven't play tested with it yet, but I plan to give it a whirl shortly.
David

That is the greediest deck I have ever seen!

[pe5e]

Hey guys,
I saw this list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13663&iddeck=100390 and I thought that I would try to breath some new life into this thread. It's an interesting mix, running W for SFM and STP. No Goose, no Goyf, no Abrupt Decay. I haven't play tested with it yet, but I plan to give it a whirl shortly.
David
It is basicly Uwr Delver with Stifles + Deathrite Shaman. Splashing 2! colors just for that seems pretty poor. Having a 5 color manabase with 4 wastelands and the manaelf in the splashcolors should make a lot more MUs worse than Deathrite makes better. But hey years before we splashed Goyf into everything :D

On another point:
I am still happy with my maindeck but have to update my sideboard, because I am having problems with the Shardless BUG MU. Nearly every card is good against us. This is my SB for now:

2 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Submerge
1 Spell Snare

I dont want to cut more then 2 slots for the MU most likely -1 Golgari Charm( but damm i love that card), -1 Submerge for +1 Spell Snare +1 Forked Bolt.
Have you guys also Problems with this deck and could give me some advise?

[sawatarix]

So it's 5colour?
Wow,rainbowlands should be good in that deck otherwise you are colourblocked all day long :D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[pe5e]

So it's 5colour?
Wow,rainbowlands should be good in that deck otherwise you are colourblocked all day long :D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
They fix your mana but you cant fetch them(cantrips, protect against Wasteland,...), you cant return them for daze, they dont fill the graveyard for Goose, Goyf and Shaman and the drawbacks for the rainbowlands itself are too big which is a shame :-[

[sawatarix]

Concerning Rainbowlands,It was obviously sarcasm :D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Quasim0ff]

I am actually starting to test this deck again, with the resurgence of Shardless BUG. So far, testing has proven decently.

[fdiv_bug]

I am actually starting to test this deck again, with the resurgence of Shardless BUG. So far, testing has proven decently.

Interesting. Have you updated the list with anything new?

I've been wanting to play Stifle again, and it always felt best in bUrg. :smile:

[Quasim0ff]

Interesting. Have you updated the list with anything new?

I've been wanting to play Stifle again, and it always felt best in bUrg. :smile:

I've slotted one of the goyfs for a TNN, and that's basically all I've done.
Yeah, it was due to wanting to play stifle again I actually resleeved it. I've been playing Grixis DeathriteDelver up until, but it just gets shat on by Shardless. Like, no chance at all... There is a ton of fair decks in my meta, and I really cbf'd playing storm or something again. Not until I get it fully foiled out at least...

[crush]

What is the general plan to beat midrange decks with this deck?

I used to play a build without TNNs and Goyfs - 4 Delvers, 4 Deathrites, 3 Mongoose and 1 Clique maindeck and couldn't stand a chance against Deathblade and similar decks. Especially opposing Deathrite Shamans felt like real deal breakers if I was not able to remove them as soon as they hit the table.

I assume we should be the aggressor and try to finish the game as quickly as possible while crippling their manabase. This is where my build was probably lacking the oompf that goyfs bring..

Any tips on what to bring in after sideboard vs. such decks and what to cut? Is it possible to play a more control role by bringing artifact removal vs SFM decks and generally more creature removal for Deathrites?

[blablub]

What is the general plan to beat midrange decks with this deck?

I used to play a build without TNNs and Goyfs - 4 Delvers, 4 Deathrites, 3 Mongoose and 1 Clique maindeck and couldn't stand a chance against Deathblade and similar decks. Especially opposing Deathrite Shamans felt like real deal breakers if I was not able to remove them as soon as they hit the table.

I assume we should be the aggressor and try to finish the game as quickly as possible while crippling their manabase. This is where my build was probably lacking the oompf that goyfs bring..

Any tips on what to bring in after sideboard vs. such decks and what to cut? Is it possible to play a more control role by bringing artifact removal vs SFM decks and generally more creature removal for Deathrites?

I think your observation is right, but it's not hard to beat them. Especially Deathblade is a good MatchUp, just kill this DRS on their table. Their Mana is simply too greedy. Mongoose is an Allstar, also you can use your own DRS to fight against the opposing DRS.

Your SB-Plan seems reasonable. I would say its legit to play more Spot Removal in the Board. i feel that a 1-off Dismember in the Board might be correct, because of the easy Mana and flexibility. A 1 off Grudge is also set imho.

[wbw]

Considering that DRS can gain life, do you think it is possible to play this deck with Watery Graves?

[crush]

Considering that DRS can gain life, do you think it is possible to play this deck with Watery Graves?

I don't think you can play any Legacy Tempo with Shocklands. Remember that you play Dazes which could end up costing you 4 additional life points. Moreover, DRS is meant to be used to kill the opponents as soon as possible - the life gain ability really only comes in handy when playing vs grave strategies (reanimator, etc).

[kryllex]

Everything is possible.
But, for example, in a tempo matchup, you want the deathrite to do damage. If the enemy has a sweeper army too, you will get forced to use the deathrite to gain the life you lost with the watery grave, instead of keepig pressure on the enemy. And sometimes 2 damage can determine a lot.

If you don't have Useas, sure, try it. But fetching in a shockland which comes untapped into play.. I don't like that :3

[dafrk3in]

I've started playing a slight variation on Eric Rill's SCG Milwaukee list. What do you guys think about forked bolt vs Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard?

[sawatarix]

If you don't play Nimble Mongoose in the Deck go with Grim Lavamancers,he is one of the most underplayed creatures right now as he can just destroy every single creature in the format except tarmogoyf,Tombstalker and shroud-guys.
Nice to have against all the slightly bad matchups like death&taxes,elves,even goblins (which is a pretty dead deck at the moment)

In erik's spy kids-deck it's really important to get potential blocking creatures out of the battlefield to make maximum damage (and extra cards thanks to edrik),grim lavamancer does the job better than forked bolt for sure.

[dafrk3in]

I played against Elves (Julian23) in the finals of an 8 man online, testing out the Eric Rill version of the deck with relevant sideboard cards: 2 Forked Bolt, 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Spell Pierce and TNN over Edric maindeck, although I sided it out.

I mull to Fetchland, Delver, Delver, Wasteland, Ponder, Force of Will on the Play. I fetch for a Volcanic Island, play Delver, and pass. Julian plays Bayou and casts Llanowar Elves. What do all of you think is the correct play here?

[Tormod]

I mull to Fetchland, Delver, Delver, Wasteland, Ponder, Force of Will on the Play. I fetch for a Volcanic Island, play Delver, and pass. Julian plays Bayou and casts Llanowar Elves. What do all of you think is the correct play here?

I would force the Llanowar; Untap Hopefully Delver flips, then wasteland the Bayou. Cast ponder and hope for a Daze, wasteland or removal to take out the next mana source/critter

[kryllex]

I would have let it resolve, attack with the delver, flipped or not, to may get a block there (if its not flipped), then waste and play second delver and keep the force for a more relevant spell

[Quasim0ff]

I would force the Llanowar; Untap Hopefully Delver flips, then wasteland the Bayou. Cast ponder and hope for a Daze, wasteland or removal to take out the next mana source/critter

Well, in magical christmasland you can always hope for lines like this.

[pe5e]

I agree with Tormods plan. Putting a potential Turn 4 clock on the board on the play and with a Ponder to search for cards to delay your opponents play seems about the best that hand can produce. Daze, removel or Cage are all decent options to find with ponder.

[dafrk3in]

I agree with Tormods plan. Putting a potential Turn 4 clock on the board on the play and with a Ponder to search for cards to delay your opponents play seems about the best that hand can produce. Daze, removel or Cage are all decent options to find with ponder.

I'm a bit confused. How is it a four turn clock? Given that Tormod mentions casting Ponder, I have to assume he advocates pitching Delver to the FOW.

[pe5e]

I'm a bit confused. How is it a four turn clock? Given that Tormod mentions casting Ponder, I have to assume he advocates pitching Delver to the FOW.

Nevermind then. For some reson i thought the hand had another blue card. Then i wouldnt force ether. Most likely waste bayou, drop the second delver and ponder next turn.

[Tormod]

Dazes get worse as the games goes on
Once Quiron Ranger hits the table, wastelands value drops.
By forcing the first turn llanowar and wasting their first land, you're setting the Elf player back 2 turns.

We're a tempo deck, and against Elves a lot of our cards become irrelevant past an early game board state.

[pe5e]

Dazes get worse as the games goes on
Once Quiron Ranger hits the table, wastelands value drops.
By forcing the first turn llanowar and wasting their first land, you're setting the Elf player back 2 turns.

We're a tempo deck, and against Elves a lot of our cards become irrelevant past an early game board state.

That is all true but if you force you have only a 7! turn clock even if delver flips instantly and you have no gas left. If you had another blue card for Force i would force the manadork pretty much every time, but since forcing means halfing your clock i dont think it is worth it. Just wasting Bayou, drop a delver and going into a race with a hardcounter for the first Natural Order seems more successfull.

[Tormod]

That is all true but if you force you have only a 7! turn clock even if delver flips instantly and you have no gas left. If you had another blue card for Force i would force the manadork pretty much every time, but since forcing means halfing your clock i dont think it is worth it. Just wasting Bayou, drop a delver and going into a race with a hardcounter for the first Natural Order seems more successfull.

I can see your reasoning as well and you make good points. There's still a whole game that needs to played out and we're working on very little information. I'm interested to see how the poster who asked the question played it out.

[dafrk3in]

I can see your reasoning as well and you make good points. There's still a whole game that needs to played out and we're working on very little information. I'm interested to see how the poster who asked the question played it out.

I forced the elf pitching delver. On my turn, I drew a fetchland, wasted Bayou, and cast Ponder. Ponder revealed Deathrite Shaman, Lightning Bolt, and a fetchland, and I didn't shuffle, setting myself up to flip Delver and shuffle away the fetchland.

My opponent played Dryad Arbor and passed. On my turn, I flipped Delver, cast DRS, and Bolted the Dryad Arbor. If you disagree with this play, or with the Ponder play, please let me know.

I ended up getting him down to 3, but my opponent Abrupt Decayed my Delver and cast Choke with DRS on the board to lock me out of the game.

I think it's a really tough decision. Essentially, am I more favored to beat my opponent's unknown six card hand and empty with a potentially flipped Delver, a Volcanic Island in play, a Ponder/Delver in hand, and an unknown card in hand than if I'd held FoW? Any insights on figuring out what to do in these situations would be helpful.

[blablub]

I would let the mana dork resolve, go to my turn, waste the bayou and drop the second delver, if u are not unlucky with the delvers this is a 3 turn clock with force back-up. if you draw another blue card, you can cantrip on turn 3 into bolt or whatever you need. I cant see how he can win if the Board is double delver, 1 land + force backUp against his lonley manaelf.

[dafrk3in]

I would let the mana dork resolve, go to my turn, waste the bayou and drop the second delver, if u are not unlucky with the delvers this is a 3 turn clock with force back-up. if you draw another blue card, you can cantrip on turn 3 into bolt or whatever you need. I cant see how he can win if the Board is double delver, 1 land + force backUp against his lonley manaelf.

After thinking about it a bit, I agree with this line. Doubling the speed of our clock with FoW backup likely restricts our opponent's ability to play his game more than countering the elf. We can also draw 6 cards which interact one for one with the elf. Thanks for taking the time to think about the play.

[blablub]

You're welcome :)

Maybe we can discuss the creature-base. Do you all play Delver? i don't like him because we play a lil bit different then normal Canadian. Without Spell Pierces it's hard to protect it. Another Point is that Deathrite Shaman is simply the better first Drop. A Lot of Team America Players say that Delver is the worst card in the Deck.

What do you think about this?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Bitterblossom

I've found this Configuration in Florians Kochs MTGO-Account, looks pretty sweet, no Delvers and no Nemesis, Maybe you need 2 Cliques in the Board against Combo to neutralize the Lack of the Delver Pressure.

[pe5e]

Maybe we can discuss the creature-base. Do you all play Delver? i don't like him because we play a lil bit different then normal Canadian. Without Spell Pierces it's hard to protect it. Another Point is that Deathrite Shaman is simply the better first Drop. A Lot of Team America Players say that Delver is the worst card in the Deck.

What do you think about this?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Bitterblossom

I've found this Configuration in Florians Kochs MTGO-Account, looks pretty sweet, no Delvers and no Nemesis, Maybe you need 2 Cliques in the Board against Combo to neutralize the Lack of the Delver Pressure.

For me there is no Tempo list without Delver. He puts up the fastest pressure, costs only 1 mana, gives a blue Card for Force of Will in Combo MUs and having Flying is very relevant. I also dont agree that Deathrite Shaman is always the better Turn 1 drop. It depends a lot on the MU, the rest of your hand(for example holding a one lander and fearing Wasteland) and how you like to play your next turns. A lot of the time i drop Delver over Shaman just because you dont have instants or socerys to remove yet. If you have nuts lines like drop Shaman, Wasteland, drop another threat with counterbackup Shaman is the way to go. But i dont think you can generalize this question. Also i dont get it why having less Spell Pierces makes Delver worse and Shaman better. Could you explain what you mean with that?


The above creature configaration is fine if you expect a lot of grindy MUs and not much graveyard hate. To maindeck Bitterblossom seems wrong though. You really only want that card against control deck otherwise it is way way to clunky and slow. Bitterblossom should stay in the SB if you really want to play it(although i dont like the card in general). But the second Shaman you draw will having a hard time looking for another black source.

For refrence, this is my decklist right now:

2 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Forked Bolt

I am still super happy with GSZ but i looks like i am am the only one even playing it :D.

My cents

[sawatarix]

Well with this decklist you crush all combodecks and controldecks for sure with an overload on countermagic (and library of course)
What about the grindy mathups?
For me it looks like that you are not well equipped against team america and jund due to missing submerges (ways to get rid of tombstalker or goyfs,these guys are kinda difficult to get rid of)

[pe5e]

Well with this decklist you crush all combodecks and controldecks for sure with an overload on countermagic (and library of course)
What about the grindy mathups?
For me it looks like that you are not well equipped against team america and jund due to missing submerges (ways to get rid of tombstalker or goyfs,these guys are kinda difficult to get rid of)

I think I have enough solutions for goyf after boarding. Against Goyfdecks i board 2 Spell Snare and 1 Abrupt Decay in along with the one maindeck Decay and the Dismember. Also if you play Goyf on your own it isnt that much of a problem as if you play the Pyromancer version. I had 2 Submerge in my SB for a while, then 1 and then cut it completely. The only reson to play the card for me is Goyf, Stalker and Knight. But i rarely see Knight and Stalker nowadays and i feel like for Goyf i can play more flexibel cards that i can also bring in against Stoneblade for example. Also since most decks playing Goyf also play Daze and Deathrite Shaman or Shardless Agent Submerge becomes a lot less attractive.
Team America and Jund are about equal. I have a bit more problems with Shardless BUG, but here the Problems are Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent.

[blablub]

Deathrite Shaman is not there do do Damage, u just don't want to drain in the early turns. The Drain Ability comes later when u wanna win.
Its there to bring you ahead on Mana and to make the opposing DRS useless because the other deck needs him more against our Wastes+Stifle. At least you don't want to Tap Out @ end of Turn. Simply because you wont give the opponent a window for fetching or bolting or whatever.

the difference between Delver and DRS is that your Opponent has to kill it immediately. If you can untap with it, the DRS has done his job in most cases. The Delver can live 2-3 Turns because he only deals Damage, 3-9 Damage is ok for the Opponent. The fact that he is blue makes him even worser because of REB. You have to spent resources on protecting your threat. This is bad because the card quality of the Tier-Decks is so high that you can't afford to use a Spell Pierce to counter a lightning bolt, because there might be another card which is more important to counter or the next removal-spell hits. Especially Postboard most opponents have a shitload removal-spells because they don't wanna get Delver Nutted

When i see your list, i can see that you have an alternate gameplan than mine. Cutting Mungos can't be right, there is no world there this can be correct. the Same about Spell Snares.
Also i can't see how you can win against Miracles Preboard with only one Decay and no Snares you die to Counterbalance, RiP and Stoneforge.

With Snares Maindeck your Jund, TA and Shardless MU become better, too

By the Way, Canadian Thresh existed without Delvers, good old time :D

[pe5e]

Deathrite Shaman is not there do do Damage, u just don't want to drain in the early turns. The Drain Ability comes later when u wanna win.
Its there to bring you ahead on Mana and to make the opposing DRS useless because the other deck needs him more against our Wastes+Stifle. At least you don't want to Tap Out @ end of Turn. Simply because you wont give the opponent a window for fetching or bolting or whatever.


Ok, now i see what you are talking about. I thought we discuss which is the better THREAT Turn 1. Shaman allows you to play the disruption role first and drop a threat later, that is right.

the difference between Delver and DRS is that your Opponent has to kill it immediately. If you can untap with it, the DRS has done his job in most cases. The Delver can live 2-3 Turns because he only deals Damage, 3-9 Damage is ok for the Opponent. The fact that he is blue makes him even worser because of REB. You have to spent resources on protecting your threat. This is bad because the card quality of the Tier-Decks is so high that you can't afford to use a Spell Pierce to counter a lightning bolt, because there might be another card which is more important to counter or the next removal-spell hits. Especially Postboard most opponents have a shitload removal-spells because they don't wanna get Delver Nutted.


I see what you mean and it is right that delver does die at some point. But when he did 9 damage til then i am feeling pretty good and look for another threat to drop. I dont think the removel part is right here. Deathrite Shaman dies to almost anything that Delver does, but last one is just better if you have to be and can be aggressive. Depends on the MU and your role in it. I dont think you can generalize it.

When i see your list, i can see that you have an alternate gameplan than mine. Cutting Mungos can't be right, there is no world there this can be correct. the Same about Spell Snares.
Also i can't see how you can win against Miracles Preboard with only one Decay and no Snares you die to Counterbalance, RiP and Stoneforge.


Well i only play 1 Mongoose less then you so it is not that i banished him out of the deck or anything. We all know how good he is. I just dont feel like i need 4 right know. There are MUs where you dont want him early so just cantrip into him later and close out the game. I didnt cut Spell Snares all together ether. I dont know about you but i face more MUs where Spell Pierce is better G1, so I maindeck Spell Pierce and board Spell Snare. I want to keep the maindeck as flexible as possible
and swap or add Silverbullets after bording. Things like Counterbalance, Hymn and such still fall to Spell Pierce while also countering Liliana and other nasty stuff G1. Rest in Peace only exist in Miracle Sideboards nowadays and then i have Spell Snares for them so that is not the Problem. I even resist it better because my creatures are less graveyard depended.
My Miracle score is quit good acually. Mongoose still slaughters them even with Rest in Peace in play. We play more counters then them and after you counter one Balance and put them low on life with a good board presence you let the seconde one resolve and force the Terminus. Stoneforge Mystic is normally SB package for which i have Spell Snare G2. And if they play them maindeck it is even better since Bolts become bettter.

With Snares Maindeck your Jund, TA and Shardless MU become better, too


That is right but i feel like we have a good Chance G1 and I rather board into a good G2 and maybe G3. I dont like the fact that you only have 4 Force G1 for noncreature permanents if they can play around Daze. After all those are the cards that worry us the most and Spell Pierce covers them better G1 than Spell Snare.

By the Way, Canadian Thresh existed without Delvers, good old time :D

In the time when he wasnt printed and about a month after ist release yeah :P

[blablub]

if you can counter the balance consistently with Pierces ur opponents are simply bad. Also you mentioned non-creature Spells which you like to Counter with Pierces, which doesn't get hit by Snare. Which?

As i said before, piercing Swords to Plowshares can be the wrongest thing

[pe5e]

if you can counter the balance consistently with Pierces ur opponents are simply bad. Also you mentioned non-creature Spells which you like to Counter with Pierces, which doesn't get hit by Snare. Which?


Not consistently, but often enough before Turn 4-5 which is enough window for me to ether produce enough pressure so he has to play stuff to survive or i find a Force for it. Remember that we still talk about G1 only. G2 i got Snares since they are clearly good here. Some good Pierce targets of the top of my head are Top, Liliana, cc1 discard, removel, Equipment, Aether Vial and everything Combo plays.
The question if you play maindeck Snares or Pierces(or a split) just depends of the MUs in which one of those counters is better G1 than the other. Postboard you have access to both anyway.



As i said before, piercing Swords to Plowshares can be the wrongest Thing

It CAN, but it CAN also destroy the Opponent :D

[JPoJohnson]

I was absolutely loving this deck idea for quite a while... but at this point I'm curious:

What are the pros to running this deck over say RUG or BUG? Both decks seem a bit more streamlined and not stretched nearly as far. Just wondering if the extra R or B splash is worth the greedier base. Cheers (:

[JosephK]

The problem of burg tempo is not the greedy manabase. It actually never bothered me : you need black md only for decay in early game and you can protect your lands with stifle. I think that the problem of this deck is the creature configuration, namely deathrite shaman. This card is amazing but it is maybe not the best card for a tempo strategy like burg tempo (which is very close from rug). If you play drs, you get 1 turn ahead compared to your opponent. But generally, you don't need this turn ahead except vs a Tempo deck or if you have Tarmogoyf + disruption in hand. And if you want to deal damage early on, you will have to spend drs + land, which is quite heavy for a 4c-tempo deck (this is one of the reason i would never play taiga md - i prefer a 3rd tropical island).
Drs is a card that is "anti-tempo", and doesn't serve the tempo strat very well (only in 2 cases : tarmo + drs + disruption in hand/the opponent has drs in play). Bug tempo is more of a midrange deck and uses drs correctly.
If I were to play burg tempo again, i would play tnn instead of mongoose for instance, to have a better use of drs, which is compulsory in this 4c deck.


By the way, what do you think about boarding surgical extraction vs Jund if I have md 4 Tarmogoyf 4 drs 4 delver 2 snare 2 decay ?

It's often CA-1 for us and could be favourable for the opponent. If the mana denial plan fails, either i get rid of punishing fire and fly over his creatures with delver/drs (but he will have reb/bolt for delver and bolt/drs for drs...) or i try to beatdown with my tarmogoyfs : in this game plan, i could surgical decay (but he will have tarmogoyf + punishing fire in this case - i have 2 decay + bolt-tarmo + snare as well). Any thoughts ?

[pe5e]

The problem of burg tempo is not the greedy manabase. It actually never bothered me : you need black md only for decay in early game and you can protect your lands with stifle. I think that the problem of this deck is the creature configuration, namely deathrite shaman. This card is amazing but it is maybe not the best card for a tempo strategy like burg tempo (which is very close from rug). If you play drs, you get 1 turn ahead compared to your opponent. But generally, you don't need this turn ahead except vs a Tempo deck or if you have Tarmogoyf + disruption in hand. And if you want to deal damage early on, you will have to spend drs + land, which is quite heavy for a 4c-tempo deck (this is one of the reason i would never play taiga md - i prefer a 3rd tropical island).
Drs is a card that is "anti-tempo", and doesn't serve the tempo strat very well (only in 2 cases : tarmo + drs + disruption in hand/the opponent has drs in play). Bug tempo is more of a midrange deck and uses drs correctly.
If I were to play burg tempo again, i would play tnn instead of mongoose for instance, to have a better use of drs, which is compulsory in this 4c deck.

The manabase for sure is a problem. Sure you have Daze, Deathrite Shaman and Stifle to protect it, but it is still worse than the manabase of RUG or BUG. But the benefits to be able to play Bolt, Pyroblast as well as Decay and Golgari Charm( depends if you splash more red or black cards) seem higher than the disadvantages of the slightly worse manabase. Deathrite Shaman alone is not the reson to play bUrg. The reson to splash 2 colours are the SB options and acess to better removel you get that BUG or RUG cant have(for example Golgari Charm against TNN for RUG and Bolts for BUG).
Deathrite Shaman itself IS a tempo card, but just not alone. It needs another threat to make him amazing. For example dealing 5 damage with Delver with great evasion while you can always keep up all your mana on the oppenents turn is great. Sure alone he is kinda slow at the begining. But that is just not his job in the early turns. It is to accelerate you during the early game to faster develop other threats and still keep up disruption. If you are in a MU where you have to be fast then you should always drop your other threat first( or cantrip into one if you havent one already). In those MUs he is kinda like Nimble Mogoose - You drop them later.
Taiga isnt there for Deathrite Shaman to begin with. It is there for the situations where you dont have him and still want to play both Bolt/Pyroblast and Golgari Charm/Decay( for exampe Death and Taxes or Stoneblade). Sure it is the worst card in the deck but it is necessary. You will be screwed from time to time because of it but you will be a lot more often not be able to have B and R at the same time if you cut it. You really only search for it if you have no other way anyway.
After all Deathrite Shaman is mainly there to hold the manabase together and dealing damage later. That is the reson most lists run 3 pieces since it is hard to have double black for two Shaman drains.



By the way, what do you think about boarding surgical extraction vs Jund if I have md 4 Tarmogoyf 4 drs 4 delver 2 snare 2 decay ?

It's often CA-1 for us and could be favourable for the opponent. If the mana denial plan fails, either i get rid of punishing fire and fly over his creatures with delver/drs (but he will have reb/bolt for delver and bolt/drs for drs...) or i try to beatdown with my tarmogoyfs : in this game plan, i could surgical decay (but he will have tarmogoyf + punishing fire in this case - i have 2 decay + bolt-tarmo + snare as well). Any thoughts ?

I cant see how you EVER make CA with Extraction. For this situation the Jund player has to have the target in the graveyard already , two more in hand, which he cant play in responds(Fire, Decay) and cant exile the target with Deathrite Shaman or return it with Grove. That is a lot of when in my opinion. About 80% of the time you would acually make CDA since you discarded a card, shocked yourself( or paid mana) while your opponent loses only a card in their deck that they maybe wouldnt even draw for the rest of the game. A card that makes CDA seems rather poor against a deck that plays Bloodbraid Elf, Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil.

My cents

[turbo]

Hi guys,
Although I have been following various threads on the source for a while, this is my first comment :)

I want to elaborate on the bUrg delver deck a bit. Before I used to play UWR Delver (achieved good results), RUG Delver, ANT, and dredge. The bUrg Delver looks really great tho, perhaps exactly how I image the right delver deck.

Here is the decklist I want to run next time.

4x delver
4x shaman
4x young pyro

4x ponder, 4x brain, 4x gitaxian
4x fow, 4x daze, 4x stifle
2x bolt, 2x therapy

7x blue fetch
4x wasteland
3x sea
3x volcanic
1x tropical

Side -
3x pyroblast
2x lavamancer
2x deathmark
2x surgical extraction
1x mizzium skin
1x misdirection
1x marsh casualtis
1x ancient grudge
2x therapy


Creatures...when playing a delver deck 12 creatures is enough. 18 lands + 12 creatures....the rest is 30 isntant/sorceries, utlizing the delver flip as much as possible (rug also plays 12 creatures). Delver is obvious, four copies - no exception. You NEVER side them out. Maindeck Shaman is basically great, helps you gain speed when on turn, helps against spell pierce, daze, is usefull against reanimator, dredge even rug delver. Compared to turn 1 Nimble mongoose, turn 1 shaman is a much better start. Young Pyromancer, a relatively weak card, however, not in our deck! Obvious combo with gitaxian probes, young pyromancer is sometimes better than goyf, is not dependend on graveyard, amazing with therapies. When having two pyromancers in play and you cast a cantrip, that is just awesome.

Dazes, stifles, fows, cantrips and bolts are the standard cards of most power for least mana. I included two therapies for the two flex spots. WHy? Because they are bescially super awesome even maindeck. Opposed to Rug delver, where players play max. 3 gitaxian probes, this deck fully utlizies the probes, what also makes our stifle targets more precise, and turn 2 therapy after a probe is good not only against combo, but also against fair decks, which are somewhat difficult matchup for us.
I only have one tropical island, as I mainly want to use black for my shamans to remove instants and sorceries + I play maindeck therapies. I topical is just fine.

Why I don't want to include - TNN - yes, they are great, but they are useless against combo (pyromancer is much faster and costs just 2 mana). TNN also costs three mana, which is still quite a lot. I understand some players may add 2 copies in this deck, but I see no reason to do it. Against Jund or Maverick (which I found to be the worst matchup), TNN is semi-good. It can block infitelly and is unblockable, yet When played well, young pyromancer can do similar damage.
Nimble mongoose - After playing RUG, I hated those turn 1 mongoose, which is a 3/3 on turn 3 soonest.
Submerge in side - Yes, it has the advantage that yu play it for free (maybe even get an elemental), but those fair decks will just draw the knight of the reliquary, opposing shaman, goyf, ooze the turn after. I also found Submerge to be relatively weak against elves. Submerge is also useless aginst non-green decks. Therefore, I decided to include deathmarks which actually solves the problem, it costs just one mana and is uselful against elves, d&t, maverick, jund (our relatively bad matchups).

Concerning the side - two therapies are great against combo. Against fair decks live maverick, I usually add a third therapy and throw some fows out. ofc. depending on whether I am on play or turn. Mizzium skin - Inspired by Rill's side, this card is a surprise mainly against BUG decks - decays and charms, decks with swords and blots. I misdirection against combo and perhpas against hymns. 3 pyroblasts against all blue decks and against TNNs. ancient grudge against vials, equipments and random artifacts. I mention deathmark earlier - seems as the best solution for one mana against decks that are difficult to play against. 2 lavamncers against random goblins, d&t, merfolks, uwr delver, elves and other creatures like mother of runes. I usually would take out two shamans and replace them with lavamancers. 2 surgicals are good against combo, reanimator, and dredge.
The cards I usually side out are dazes when on turn, stifles, fows when on play (i add dazes again), bolts against combo (I would leave 2-3 bolts against ANT and TES). Sometimes I want shamans out, mainly when I want to add lavamancer. Remember you can also side out wastelands which are uselss against Hightide and other random decks.

I hope to see this deck succeed more often. I believe it is somehat stronger than rug or uwr delver, as 4 probes gives you the max. information how to play around other spells and when to save manafor stifle and so on. In other decks like rug, there is no space for 4 probes.

I hope I provided you with some inspiration. I will be happy to see your comments and suggestions.
Peace out

[JosephK]

The manabase for sure is a problem. Sure you have Daze, Deathrite Shaman and Stifle to protect it, but it is still worse than the manabase of RUG or BUG. But the benefits to be able to play Bolt, Pyroblast as well as Decay and Golgari Charm( depends if you splash more red or black cards) seem higher than the disadvantages of the slightly worse manabase. Deathrite Shaman alone is not the reason to play bUrg. The reason to splash 2 colours are the SB options and acess to better removals you get that BUG or RUG cant have(for example Golgari Charm against TNN for RUG and Bolts for BUG).


Against the vast majority of decks, you are the aggressor, as a tempo deck. Wasting you is often a bad idea. I can't remember a game I lost because I needed a colour I couldn't have. I have more green sources than RUG (3 drs 3 trop). I'm not sure which one of the 2 decks has the worse manabase MD. Postside, it depends on your sb plan (having 2 golgari charm 2 decay is indeed quite hard to handle) Decay is a great card, but again, is not the best tempo card (generally you spend 2 to remove a 2 cmc permanent). Submerge is a lot better vs Fair decks for instance. But Decay is very versatile and can hit enchantments, artifacts, etc.. It remains a good card.
Adding Black gives you more tools but doesn't exactly fit the tempo game plan.



Deathrite Shaman itself IS a tempo card, but just not alone. It needs another threat to make him amazing. For example dealing 5 damage with Delver with great evasion while you can always keep up all your mana on the oppenents turn is great. Sure alone he is kinda slow at the begining. But that is just not his job in the early turns. It is to accelerate you during the early game to faster develop other threats and still keep up disruption. If you are in a MU where you have to be fast then you should always drop your other threat first( or cantrip into one if you havent one already). In those MUs he is kinda like Nimble Mogoose - You drop them later.
Taiga isnt there for Deathrite Shaman to begin with. It is there for the situations where you dont have him and still want to play both Bolt/Pyroblast and Golgari Charm/Decay( for exampe Death and Taxes or Stoneblade). Sure it is the worst card in the deck but it is necessary. You will be screwed from time to time because of it but you will be a lot more often not be able to have B and R at the same time if you cut it. You really only search for it if you have no other way anyway.
After all Deathrite Shaman is mainly there to hold the manabase together and dealing damage later. That is the reson most lists run 3 pieces since it is hard to have double black for two Shaman drains.

I said that drs was necessary and that it was the reason burg tempo was not successful. I explained why it wasn't a good tempo card. You say it's a good tempo card because you can deal 2 damages in mid game ? I think you can find better threats for that.


I cant see how you EVER make CA with Extraction. For this situation the Jund player has to have the target in the graveyard already , two more in hand, which he cant play in responds(Fire, Decay) and cant exile the target with Deathrite Shaman or return it with Grove. That is a lot of when in my opinion. About 80% of the time you would acually make CDA since you discarded a card, shocked yourself( or paid mana) while your opponent loses only a card in their deck that they maybe wouldnt even draw for the rest of the game. A card that makes CDA seems rather poor against a deck that plays Bloodbraid Elf, Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil.

Lol please read what i wrote another time (CA -1). Basically i say, knowing that I loose a card (CA -1), do you think that getting rid of punishing fire/decay (depending on your game plan) is worth it ?

[pe5e]

Against the vast majority of decks, you are the aggressor, as a tempo deck. Wasting you is often a bad idea. I can't remember a game I lost because I needed a colour I couldn't have. I have more green sources than RUG (3 drs 3 trop). I'm not sure which one of the 2 decks has the worse manabase MD. Postside, it depends on your sb plan (having 2 golgari charm 2 decay is indeed quite hard to handle) Decay is a great card, but again, is not the best tempo card (generally you spend 2 to remove a 2 cmc permanent). Submerge is a lot better vs Fair decks for instance. But Decay is very versatile and can hit enchantments, artifacts, etc.. It remains a good card.
Adding Black gives you more tools but doesn't exactly fit the tempo game plan.


In the sence that black is slower and so you dont create tempo, that is right. But those cards are not splashed to create tempo. They are splashed to solve problems that you otherwise cant (or way worse). Otherwise you did make good points and i agree with you.

I said that drs was necessary and that it was the reason burg tempo was not successful. I explained why it wasn't a good tempo card. You say it's a good tempo card because you can deal 2 damages in mid game ? I think you can find better threats for that.


I basicly said that Deathrite Shaman is a tempo card because it sets you ahead early while being a threat later(not the best but still only 1 damage less than Delver). No other creature can do that.

Lol please read what i wrote another time (CA -1). Basically i say, knowing that I loose a card (CA -1), do you think that getting rid of punishing fire/decay (depending on your game plan) is worth it ?


Sorry, I missunderstand you there. I think most of the time it isnt worth it because the problematic card was already played. Making CDA afterwards should get you ahead then.

[sawatarix]

just finished first in a 4-round weekly tournament in berlin.

Deck: German ******** by Kai thiele (july 2014)

Creatures:13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bitterblossom
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will

Lands:19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Fire Covenant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge


nimble mongoose should be goyf i guess to appy more pressure in the early turns.
maybe also a 1-off scavenging ooze but i'm not sure yet.

[fdiv_bug]

Looks like a slight variant on the bUrg theme (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14157&iddeck=104208) took 5th out of 148 at the Prague Eternal 2014 Legacy main event earlier this month.

// NAME: BUGr
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Forked Bolt
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm

I think it looks pretty reasonable, though I'd personally replace the Gitaxian Probes with something else. I like the one-of Snapcaster, though, for the occasional surprise.

[sawatarix]

yep this is Thomas Mar's Deck, i played against him in the top 8 @ prague eternal.

the list looks pretty solid,there were also a lot of other burg decks with different creatures in that event.
(i played against 4 different burg decks,one with dark confidant another with pyromancer ,sometimes with stifle ,the popularity of this deck is huge.

[crush]

just finished first in a 4-round weekly tournament in berlin.

Deck: German ******** by Kai thiele (july 2014)

Creatures:13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bitterblossom
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will

Lands:19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Fire Covenant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge


nimble mongoose should be goyf i guess to appy more pressure in the early turns.
maybe also a 1-off scavenging ooze but i'm not sure yet.

Would you rather play 2x TNN instead of Cliques in a combo-light meta?
If so, do you think it would be good to shave some spell pierces for more snares?

Thanks!

[sawatarix]

exactly !

[blablub]

imho the creature suite is the hardest choice you have, atm i'm playin:

3 DRS
4 Mungo
4 Delver
2 TNN

TNN sucks against Combo obv. and it hurts to draw them in game 1, but combo is good anyways, play more Snares. They are simply the better Counterspell against ANT and the midrange MUs and Miracles.

[crush]

imho the creature suite is the hardest choice you have, atm i'm playin:

3 DRS
4 Mungo
4 Delver
2 TNN

TNN sucks against Combo obv. and it hurts to draw them in game 1, but combo is good anyways, play more Snares. They are simply the better Counterspell against ANT and the midrange MUs and Miracles.

I agree. However, I used to play a build very similar to the one sawatarix posted above and I liked the V.Cliques a lot. They usually came down at the end of the opponents turn to replace the freshly removed flying Insect :-)
Problem was; I used to play Snares in that deck and lacked a way to protect my threats. So I would definitely suggest Pierces in this list.

Also, I don't think cutting Stifles is wise, unless you are sure everyone in the room thinks you are running them. It is hard to survive vs a Wasteland deck w/o them.

[blablub]

I agree. However, I used to play a build very similar to the one sawatarix posted above and I liked the V.Cliques a lot. They usually came down at the end of the opponents turn to replace the freshly removed flying Insect :-)
Problem was; I used to play Snares in that deck and lacked a way to protect my threats. So I would definitely suggest Pierces in this list.

Also, I don't think cutting Stifles is wise, unless you are sure everyone in the room thinks you are running them. It is hard to survive vs a Wasteland deck w/o them.

jeah, i will never cut Stifles.
i Don't want to protect my threads, just Kill/counter everything relevant, then kill em with mungos, its enoughm especially if you play with TNN :P

[sawatarix]

playing nimble mongoose is fine.
but most of the time this deck has trouble to fight opposing tarmogoyfs.
that could be a reason to increase our own tarmogoyf count,2 decays and 2 tnn are not enough to deal with the lhurgoyf...jund,shardless bug and even canadian ******** are still one the worst matchups in my experience.

a solid way to beat those decks can be the following:

to turn the deck a little bit midrang-ish.

+ 19th land
+ 4 tarmogoyf
+ 3 Spell Pierce (to protect our threads)

- 4 nimble mongoose (we can't play both goose and goyf)
-4 stifle or spell snare

[sawatarix]

Not to mention that we have the option to play grim lavamancer (which is an underplayed card in legacy for years) if we switch to 4 goyfs instead of mongeese.
it's like playing team america without all these clunky spells like hymn to tourach and 4 abrupt decays and especially liliana (which isn't a tempo card at all) but with reach (burn) and better sideboard cards.

[crush]

I always wanted to try out a black splash in a NLT RUG list :)

I believe the 4th color would make a bigger difference in the long run (ie. a midrange build), since you would have more time to "sculpt the perfect (reactive) hand" (to use a combo phrase).

On the other hand, I doubt such a deck would be powerful enough to compete with the existing midrange decks.

[sawatarix]

after sideboarding the deck looks a little bit like next level ******** but still remains a tempo deck.


Yesterday I went to a local legacy tournament in berlin with 4 rounds and finished 1st.
went 4:0:0 and 8:1:0 in games.
here the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deeathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Bitterblossom (could be the 4th Tarmogoyf but is insane against miracle control)
2 Vendillion CLique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sb:
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tarfire
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge



Round 1: Canadian ******** 2:0
Both games went into the long grindy ones where tarmogoyf+shaman were superiour to nimble mongoose+ friends.

Round 2: UWr Miracle 2:1
G1 was kinda unfortunate: i had polluted delta in my hand but no second land nor cantrip for 7 turns in total, i got countertoplocked in the midgame after a terminus and i got crushed by elspeth and jace, happens.
G2 i started with Deathrite Shaman followed by Vendillion Clique and Jace on turn 3. at this point i was so far ahead and won via tarmogoyf-beats while sculpting a perfect hand with double force of will backup.
G3 = G2, Jace is a good card to fight Control Decks in general because you need a Cardadvantage machine if your board gets sweeped away.

Round 3: ant 2:0
well this deck is supposed to kill combo decks and it did the job very well.
keycards were vendillion clique and spell snares in particular, there is no way ant can play around spell snare.
just keep always mana open to counter their cantrips (that is pretty important and most of the times the key to victory, believe me or not.i know the matchup very well from both sides)

round 4: burn 2:0
burn is also very similar to a combo deck - keep counterspells alive and try to kill grim lavamancer and eidolon as soon as possible.
tarmogoy and deathrite shaman are pretty good in this matchup, delver dies pretty soon and bitterblossom...well this card realy sucks in this matchup.
don't be agressive with shamans, if you have the option to drain/ gain life: always gain life to prevent instant kills via 2 price of progress or multiple fireblasts and so on.don't make any unnessesary land drops and keep dazes in your hand to minimize pops.
job done.

the list was fine, bitterblossom could be a sideboard card to make room for the 4th goyf in the main, otherwise the list looks great i think.
if you have any questions or
Furthermore i can also imagine to add Stifle in the deck to get more free wins via manadenial.
- 2 spell snare
- 1 abrupt decay
- 1 vendillion clique
+ 4 Stifle

would be my guess.

what do you think?

high 5

[pe5e]

Great report and performance. But i really dont like that you cut Stifle. It is one of the reasons why we can play 4 colours to begin with.
That is why i dont think the above deck should be playing red at all. You have 7 cmc2 and 2 cmc3 cards in the deck which pretty much ensures that you cant use Stifle effectivly. So the cut of Stifle for THIS list seems right. But if we just move to a more tappout tempo deck then Team America should do that better and will have less mana problems.

I can agree on 4 Goyfs main in a heavy green meta. But i see no reason to play Bitterblossom and 3! Abrupt Decay preboard. At least some of those cards should be boarded in rather then getting cutted after G1(assuming you wanna play Stifle). I think i need to remember you that Dismember is a pretty good card in this deck.

Also i hate the Jaces in the board. They dont solve any problems we have against control(namely Miracles and Nic Fit). If a situation occurs in which you can resolve a 4 mana socery and still have a favourable position after you untap, then about every threat that doesnt die to creature removel(Nimble Mongoose, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, TNN, ...) should have done the same thing without being unable to cast most of the time. I mean Jace itself doesnt even produce pressure and cant stabilize you in a bad board position.

I think the idea of going big with threats is good right now. But playing those cards main seems wrong to me.

[sawatarix]

To be honest, Jace was just a fun-slot in the sideboard and we all know how hard it is to cast such expensive threads in a deck with just 19 lands (or 15 if you ignore wasteland).
But it's always fun if you get to resolve Jace on your side on the table and start to control decks out like miracle.
Bitterblossom or Sylvan Library do the same job for 2cmc by the way but Jace is...you know,Jace :D

The biggest question in the deck are the creatures.
i'm still not sure about the amount of copies of Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Scavenging Ooze, Dark Confidant,Vendillion Clique and maybe True-Name Nemesis.
Maybe we should simply play 4 deathrite Shaman 4 Delver of Secrets and 4 Tarmogoyf - end of Story.
For now adding 1-2 Vendillion Cliques might be great to combat Stoneforge Mystic Decks as well as show and tell decks.
Another thing i like a lot is to play clique in respond to a miracle-trigger - put the miracle card on the bottom and 'hard counter'
Many People have suggested True-Name-Nemesis but honestly i'm not a big fan of the Shroud Merfolk in a deck which doesn't have access to equipments like UWR Delver.
Team America also stopped playing Nemesis for the same reason, we can't get full advantage out of it.

The 3rd Decay was there to fight our bad matchups - the fair ones like maverick, death and taxes and shardless bug.

[pe5e]

The time i can play magic (which is not a lot at the moment) I test this list right now:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sylvan Library

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 2 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
SB: 1 Dismember

It hurts me a lot to play no gooses but for the next time people will play that Judgement crap(not saying it is good but people play it) and i want to try some new stuff as well. You could give it a try.

[Kael]

Hey all,

I've recently been exploring various Delver archetypes, and I put this together this weekend for a small local event, and went 3-1, 2-0ing Burn, Sneak, and TA, and losing to Elfball (no combo, just Elf Lords...it was embarrassing).

I haven't had so much fun playing a deck in a long time. I beat BUG on a mull to 4 off of a 3-for-1 with Fire Covenant. I cast 3 Stifles on 3 fetches all in the same turn. I decayed my own dude for a Deathrite activation to keep myself alive against Burn. I actually cast a Compost in Legacy. Thanks for putting so much effort into tuning the deck this last year, and I hope everyone keeps doing well with it! I definitely plan on sticking with the deck for quite awhile.

[JosephK]

I always wanted to try out a black splash in a NLT RUG list :)

I believe the 4th color would make a bigger difference in the long run (ie. a midrange build), since you would have more time to "sculpt the perfect (reactive) hand" (to use a combo phrase).

On the other hand, I doubt such a deck would be powerful enough to compete with the existing midrange decks.


Hey Crush ! You're completely right. I think that Burg is very well suited to play a NLT Strategy. The power of Stifle and DRS in one deck is a lot more efficient when you also play Jace. Black doesn't exactly fit the normal tempo strategy, but it allows the NLT player to have answers to TNN (diabolic edict), Goyfs (decay) and this miraculous sb card : Bitterblossom. I've been playing a NLT Burg Deck for quite some time now (2 months). The worst matchup is Elves (and Omnishow for my list) - no more delvers -, the best is Miracle (never lost once). It's maybe not the best place to discuss this : there is a NLT Thread.

[blablub]

It would the great if you can share your lists, especially your creature config ;)

[JosephK]

Sure, I would be glad to get some feedbacks :).

First, here is my list (4c-NLT):

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga


4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force Spike

SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

With 2 free Sb slots depending on the meta. Fire Covenant/Electrickery/Spell Pierce/Envelop/Engineered plague...



Some remarks :

.The creature configuration is quite usual regarding the NLT strategy. I just added Drs that fits perfectly. Maybe a few words : Mongoose doesn't have enough late game to be played here, and doesn't close games fast enough. Vendilion Clique is just better than TNN in NLT. Playing both MD is too heavy for this 20 land deck and I couldn't find room in the sb (tnn doesn't exactly help vs bad match ups).
.Because of 3cmc drops, i prefer force spike to a third spell snare, but pierce can be used instead. Daze is very bad : you need your land drops. Force spike is also there to afraid the opponent (he will also be afraid of Daze btw).
.I used to play Life MD, then sb, and then I completely dropped it, because I need my slots for match ups like elves/painter/show and tell.
.I consider Sylvan library as a fifth Tarmogoyf and as a third Jace.
.It's an old debate : should NLT play 21 Lands and 2 Ponder or 20 Lands and 3 Ponder ? With Drs now in the pack, I chose the second option.

I used to play the usual Burg Tempo deck, then I switched to the delverless list by Carsten Linden, and I finally got this list, that fits my playstyle. Getting Jace to filter lands out of my opponent's draws is just exhilarating.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, I've been playing 4-Color Delver for a while now:
LANDS [18]:
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

CREATURES [14]:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis

INSTANTS [21]:
1 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will

SORCERIES [7]:
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

SIDEBOARD [15]:
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sylvan Library
2 Submerge

----------------------------------

While I really love this deck, I do feel it's weak to Golgari Charm and the likes. All the creatures besides flipped Delvers and Deathrites die to it and it shuts down your ability to run them succesfully as well.
This deck also has some issues with early Goyfs and the Young Pyromancers need a while to set up. If you're shit out luck and have no cantrips to chain/whatever, it just makes it a weak 2/1. However, when it works, it works out amazingly and I do like YP better in the combo match-ups because with a DRS you can slam it down on turn 2, leave mana open for Stifle or a cantrip and during the game, the pressure just keeps building while you dig for permission.

Anyways, I've been interested in BURG Delver for a while now, because it looks like a mix between RUG and BUG Delver; slightly more clunky than RUG, but less so than BUG. The mainboard Abrupt Decay and DRS are something that seem interesting to me. I've already made up my mind that I'd prefer to play a DRS-Delver list, so this does fit perfectly to my tastes. It's why I play 4-Color D. right now.

Anyways, this is the list I've been thinking about for BURG Delver:
LANDS [18]:
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

CREATURES [13]:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

INSTANTS [25]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

SORCERIES [4]:
4 Ponder

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant (not sure about this slot)
1 Bitterblossom / 1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (not sure about this slot, at all)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

I'd need to do some testing to see what I would prefer. Our meta is very combo-light at the moment. It's like it has died out. Most of it is either Miracles, mid-range decks like BUG or tempo decks like various Delver lists and Merfolk/etc. I'm not sure if that one maindeck TNN should be another DRS or another Goyf, perhaps. It seems random, but the TNN has done work for me in 4-Color Delver, even just as a 2-of.

I'm also not sure about Fire Covenant - is this still used in these lists? Or have we moved towards Golgari Charm and/-or Toxic Deluge?

[Kamus]

What do you think about this list?

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt

That's a RUG delver with B splash for Shaman and Decay. Decay is an extremelly overpowered card that can kills tarmogoyfs (which classic RUG delver has trouble do handle), besides Liliana, equipments, sylvan library, chalice for 1, etc. The list keeps the Tempo idea, with a great control of the early game with Daze, Stifle, FoW, Pierce and Wastelands. Bolt can handle small creatures and finish the game, removing the last points of opponent's life. I don't need to comment about the importance of BS and Ponder, the best cantrips in the format. With 12 creature slots available, Delver increases the clock, which is the best possible creature to use against Combo decks, Tarmogoyf is excelent against Aggro decks (the best creature of Legacy, imo), and I decided to use Deathrite Shaman to complete the last 4 slots available. It's just better than mangoose, it rules dredge decks, you can use it to gain life against burn decks, it keeps the damage pressure, even in situations where you can't atack or need to keep your goyf for blocking, pretty good creature against control decks. This deck don't need more than 18 lands, the majority of the cards are curve 1, besides the Shaman can be used for mana, increasing the control of the early game (turn 1 shaman, turn 2 tarmogoyf plus spell pierce backup, for example).
I think this list is pretty much overpowered, using the 3 best creatures in Legacy, plus 28 non-spell creatures to control the early game board and increases the chance of delver flipping, even without cantrip help.

[grimskies]

@DemolitionColorScheme
I've just pick up the deck, and did't have much time testing it, however my main is exactly the same as your Pyromancer-free list (this list is almost the same as Official bUrg.dec). My sideboard:

1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Bitterblossom
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge


Also nothing new :smile: I'm a little worried it's a bit gravehate-light, but I hope main DRS are enough.

As for Fire Covenant vs Toxic Deluge: the latter is easier to cast, requires less life, does not target, but it's a sorcery and it wipes your board as well...

[Jizz]

What do you think about this list?

That's a RUG delver with B splash for Shaman and Decay. Decay is an extremelly overpowered card that can kills tarmogoyfs (which classic RUG delver has trouble do handle), besides Liliana, equipments, sylvan library, chalice for 1, etc. The list keeps the Tempo idea, with a great control of the early game with Daze, Stifle, FoW, Pierce and Wastelands. Bolt can handle small creatures and finish the game, removing the last points of opponent's life. I don't need to comment about the importance of BS and Ponder, the best cantrips in the format. With 12 creature slots available, Delver increases the clock, which is the best possible creature to use against Combo decks, Tarmogoyf is excelent against Aggro decks (the best creature of Legacy, imo), and I decided to use Deathrite Shaman to complete the last 4 slots available. It's just better than mongoose, it rules dredge decks, you can use it to gain life against burn decks, it keeps the damage pressure, even in situations where you can't atack or need to keep your goyf for blocking, pretty good creature against control decks. This deck don't need more than 18 lands, the majority of the cards are curve 1, besides the Shaman can be used for mana, increasing the control of the early game (turn 1 shaman, turn 2 tarmogoyf plus spell pierce backup, for example).
I think this list is pretty much overpowered, using the 3 best creatures in Legacy, plus 28 non-spell creatures to control the early game board and increases the chance of delver flipping, even without cantrip help.

Hahaha are you trolling Kamus ? You talk like you've just discovered something. Thanks to you, I know that Shaman can gain me life. I laughed so hard. This thread...

[DemolitionColorScheme]

@DemolitionColorScheme
I've just pick up the deck, and did't have much time testing it, however my main is exactly the same as your Pyromancer-free list (this list is almost the same as Official bUrg.dec). My sideboard:

1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Bitterblossom
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge


Also nothing new :smile: I'm a little worried it's a bit gravehate-light, but I hope main DRS are enough.

As for Fire Covenant vs Toxic Deluge: the latter is easier to cast, requires less life, does not target, but it's a sorcery and it wipes your board as well...
That's cool to see! I guess our thought process behind the maindeck and the board are pretty similar. I like that. :cool:

I think the few flex slots and the SB choices are so hard for this particular build, really. We have so much options, but simply not enough space to fit them all in, haha. :wink:
I'm still fiddling around with the SB as well, I run 1 Grafdigger's Cage and 1 Surgical Extraction for extra GY hate. The Cage helps vs GSZ/Elves/Reanimator and ANT/TES. The Surgical is good in various match ups, like ANT/TES, G/B Pox, Lands (Punishing Fire, Loam), JUND (Punishing Fire and Loam once more), etc. It's a tool that I just like to have as a one off. It sometimes helps in the Delver mirrors as well. Extracting Goyfs, Underground Seas (vs BUG Delver), Tropicals, their Loam, you name it, although it's rare that I side it in vs the Delver decks. I have done so in the past and it does feel like a ridiculous cheap win, haha. Surgical also works just as well vs Dredge; responding to the Narcomoeba trigger, etc.

I am debating cutting the one Grim Lavamancer. It doesn't jive with the Goyfs, DRS and Geese and I often don't board it in. We already have 2 Decay and 4 Bolts, alongside a couple of (soft) sweepers and semi-removal in the form of Submerge. Besides, Red is basically just a small splash for us and it's the last one I often fetch for, which makes it even less of a good choice. So, I think it doesn't really fit in this list, but I might be wrong. Sylvan Library has been overperforming, as always. It's an all-star vs Miracles and control decks and it feels like a must-include in the SB. Vendilion Clique; same thing, but its application is broader and can come in vs. a lot of match-ups. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has been a total dud for me, honestly. I think it might even be borderline bad. It doesn't protect him/herself when it comes into play and its effect is too RNG-y for my taste. I'm probably not ever going to run this. Bitterblossoms has been interesting enough, but I haven't made up my mind about it just yet. It's good vs Miracles and can be good in midrange matchups like BUG Delver/Team America; chump blocking Goyfs, Tombstalker and Delver is interesting and at times, due to the evasion, it gives us extra reach. The one major downside is that it's a Enchantment and a Tribal. While it does grow my 2 Goyfs, it does suck hard when you don't have a Goyf out and the opponent does, Abrupt Decay's it and has a 6/7 Goyf on the table! This alone might not make it boardable vs BUG Delver, unless I convert to a 3 / 4 Goyf build (I currently don't own 3 or 4 Goyfs, sadly). I haven't been able to truly test Fire Covenant, because I'm still in the playtesting phase and haven't brought it out yet to tournaments. I don't doubt it's good vs tribal, like Elves and Merfolk, but I'm not sure if it's good vs Goyf lists. This is one slot I'm really doubting as well. I might consider going for 2 Golgari Charms for it instead because it has a broader range of applications; thrashing Counterbalance, Bloodmoon, Sneak Attack, etc. or regenerating our creatures in the face of Supreme Verdict / Abrupt Decay / Bolt. It's also one mana cheaper and doesn't require us to specifically fetch for Red or use our DRS to get some Red. Our meta is pretty combo light, so I haven't felt the need to add Flusterstorm to my sideboard. Our match up vs ANT/TES is already great with us having access to Stifle, Pierce, Spell Snare, FoW, Daze and, let's not forget; DRS. In other match ups I wish that Flusterstorm was a Spell Spierce so I could just counter that Liliana ...

So, here's the old and much talked about debate;
- 3 Tropical Island vs 1 Taiga and 2 Tropicals
I felt the clunkiness of the one Taiga, even in opening hands with a Delver and Daze. I know, it's just being unlucky, but it does show me the weakness of the one Taiga. I feel, in a list that runs so much blue (especially with the flex spots being occupied by Spell Snare and Spell Pierce) and us running Dazes, we can't really afford the Taiga. It's kinda handy in the Miracles match up where you board in the Pyroblasts, but in the other match ups, it felt clunky and often unwanted. What are your guys' take on this? I'm seriously considering dropping the 1 Taiga for an extra Tropical, but I'm really still not sure.

[pe5e]

So, here's the old and much talked about debate;
- 3 Tropical Island vs 1 Taiga and 2 Tropicals
I felt the clunkiness of the one Taiga, even in opening hands with a Delver and Daze. I know, it's just being unlucky, but it does show me the weakness of the one Taiga. I feel, in a list that runs so much blue (especially with the flex splots being occupied by Spell Snare and Spell Pierce) and us running Dazes, we can't really afford the Taiga. It's kinda handy in the Miracles match up where you board in the Pyroblasts, but in the other match ups, it felt clunky and often unwanted. What are your guys' take on this? I'm seriously considering dropping the 1 Taiga for an extra Tropical, but I'm really still not sure.

The debate about cutting Taiga is really coming up every now and then but it is a important question. To me it is just a question of chances. How often will you lose a game because you had no Tropical instead of Taiga and how often will you lose because you cant play on just 2 lands?
I think it is possible to play without Taiga but then i would not play any Abrupt Decays or Golgari Charms. On the other hand those cards a very powerful in some MUs and can turn the match enormously.
Sure Taiga is the worst card in the deck but i like to play those BG cards, so i take the risk of getting screwed some small percentage of the time because of it.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

The debate about cutting Taiga is really coming up every now and then but it is a important question. To me it is just a question of chances. How often will you lose a game because you had no Tropical instead of Taiga and how often will you lose because you cant play on just 2 lands?
I think it is possible to play without Taiga but then i would not play any Abrupt Decays or Golgari Charms. On the other hand those cards a very powerful in some MUs and can turn the match enormously.
Sure Taiga is the worst card in the deck but i like to play those BG cards, so i take the risk of getting screwed some small percentage of the time because of it.
Maybe it's just the nature of the beast (the beast being BURG Delver, ha) that the flex-dual can be awkward at times. The same goes for BUG Delver, where the 1 Tropical is less desirable due to the need for BB, but it's better in that list, because it enables Daze, softcounters, Delvers, DRS, cantrips and can still help you cast Goyf and Abrupt Decay if you have an Underground Sea. In our case the Taiga does enable us to run off of just an Underground Sea and the single Taiga, but it depends on the hand, of course. I feel it's just so important to keep blue up, but I need to be cantripping as well. Keeping Taiga open doesn't do jack and can only be used to cast threats (DRS/Goose/Goyf) or Abrupt Decay, Bolt; i.e. removal. It's something that needs to be weighed. I like it early vs decks that don't run Wasteland, so I can feel safe having just a Sea, Tropical and Taiga, but in Wasteland matches or mirrors, that Taiga can be backbreaking, because I need to be able to Stifle aggressively and defensively; the scenario changes dramatically when we have an active DRS out and he is the glue that holds the deck together. I wish I could run 4 like I did in 4-Color Delver. I sometimes even doubt the 3 Mongeese. I know, blasphemy! I feel it's the weakest threat in the deck, even though it's the most resilient threat we have, next to TNN. I just loathe the Goose / Goyf stare-down, haha.

[JosephK]

This deck wants to remain reactive (stifle snare pierce and no tourach etc like bug). Therefore you can't be really functional with 1 taiga and 1 blue dual (unlike bug that is with bayou usea) : you need 2 blue duals. I wouldn't play a non blue dual in a 18 land tempo deck with stifle. Playing a third tropical means that you're afraid of Wasteland. If you're a real tempo player and have balls, you just put there the 8th fetch (after all you play drs and stifle to protect your manabase).

And this is the problem of burg tempo : you can't play all your spells with only 2 blue duals. That's why I went to a bit more midrandgy version with 4c NLT.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

This deck wants to remain reactive (stifle snare pierce and no tourach etc like bug). Therefore you can't be really functional with 1 taiga and 1 blue dual (unlike bug that is with bayou usea) : you need 2 blue duals. I wouldn't play a non blue dual in a 18 land tempo deck with stifle. Playing a third tropical means that you're afraid of Wasteland. If you're a real tempo player and have balls, you just put there the 8th fetch (after all you play drs and stifle to protect your manabase).

And this is the problem of burg tempo : you can't play all your spells with only 2 blue duals. That's why I went to a bit more midrandgy version with 4c NLT.
That's something I can wholeheartedly agree on. It's exactly why the Taiga feels off for me.
So, what are you playing then, exactly? 4C NLT stands for ... ?

[JosephK]

It stands for 4 colour Next Level Threshold. I posted my list on the last page.

[pe5e]

This deck wants to remain reactive (stifle snare pierce and no tourach etc like bug). Therefore you can't be really functional with 1 taiga and 1 blue dual (unlike bug that is with bayou usea) : you need 2 blue duals. I wouldn't play a non blue dual in a 18 land tempo deck with stifle. Playing a third tropical means that you're afraid of Wasteland. If you're a real tempo player and have balls, you just put there the 8th fetch (after all you play drs and stifle to protect your manabase).

And this is the problem of burg tempo : you can't play all your spells with only 2 blue duals. That's why I went to a bit more midrandgy version with 4c NLT.

I think we are overreacting here a bit. I mean we only fetch Taiga if we need to( which is only about every 8+ match in my experience). And if we really fear to get destroyed by wasteland after, we should consider to rather get a blue dual and have 1 or 2 dead cards in hand for now( which can be shuffled away or you just find another fetchland later, we play 8 cantrips after all).
I also dont see how 4c NLT solves that problem any better. It just plays more lands so you more often draw into fetchlands. But more lands and higher manacosts for stuff means less tempo advantages, which lead to an entire different deck, which has advantages and disadvantages in other MUs that burg Delver doesnt have.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It stands for 4 colour Next Level Threshold. I posted my list on the last page.
Ah, of course. I found the NLT thread on here and your post as well:


Here is my list (4c-NLT):

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga


4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force Spike

SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

With 2 free Sb slots depending on the meta. Fire Covenant/Electrickery/Spell Pierce/Envelop/Engineered plague...
I like the cheekiness of the concept, having a RUG or 4C list trying to resolve Jace, but this list and the whole NLT concept looks kinda ... undefined for me. I looked at the thread and the decklists vary highly; it seems to lack ... direction? At first glance, that is. I'm not one to dismiss anything too quickly, but this list just seems weird to me. Stifle and Bolt, for me, are tempo cards and they therefore shine in a tempo list. I don't really see the value having them in this list. Tempo decks can abuse that small window to apply pressure and take away the game from there. It's that initial window, the early game and the start of the mid game where Stifle does its work best of all.

Also, you said running Taiga is bad, but why are you running it, if I may ask? I looks even worse in your list with 3 Clique, 2 Jace, Counterspell - cards which all need UU. Granted, you do run 20 lands, so maybe it's slightly less problematic for you due to that reason.

Don't get me wrong, the NLT concept looks interesting, for sure, but I think I'll stick with a tempo shell.

[JosephK]

Yes the NLT thread has become a RUG Control Thread. NLT has a very particular strategy : every list runs 4 stifle and 2 Jace. To sum it up, you gain early Tempo to control your opponent : a pure Tempo deck uses the mana you gain over your opponent with daze (this can be avoided though), NLT uses it to ramp into midrange tools like Jace, Clique and Tarmo.
Stifle, Bolt, Snare are there to control the early game to enter midgame with an advantage, with your threats protected by Clique. If you play drs + stifle in a pure tempo deck, you get 2 damage through (if you didn't use usea), if you play Drs + Stifle in NLT, you get Jace on the table virtually on turn 2.

Here you need 4 lands in play and you don't have daze, so a non blue dual is nice to protect our lands from wasteland (i chose taiga because I can play more spells with it, but it is maybe not the best choice, or mb -1 fetch -1 taiga +1 trop +1 badlands, because we play 4 shaman). It is not the case of a pure Tempo deck, which should normally need only 2 lands to be functional, these 2 lands producing blue.

What I'm trying to say is : if I wanted to play Tempo, I would play Rug, if I wanted to play Burg (because it rocks:)), I would play NLT.

[pe5e]

Yes the NLT thread has become a RUG Control Thread. NLT has a very particular strategy : every list runs 4 stifle and 2 Jace. To sum it up, you gain early Tempo to control your opponent : a pure Tempo deck uses the mana you gain over your opponent with daze (this can be avoided though), NLT uses it to ramp into midrange tools like Jace, Clique and Tarmo.
Stifle, Bolt, Snare are there to control the early game to enter midgame with an advantage, with your threats protected by Clique.

You just explain what the decks do but nothing about the advantages NLT should have.


If you play drs + stifle in a pure tempo deck, you get 2 damage through (if you didn't use usea), if you play Drs + Stifle in NLT, you get Jace on the table virtually on turn 2.

I think that is a very corner case example. Shaman should not be attacking in the first few turns anyway to represent answers. Also active Deathrite Shaman + dropped threat and maybe counterbackup or more mana disruption should be equally destructive while coming up a lot more than the Jace on Turn 2.


Here you need 4 lands in play and you don't have daze, so a non blue dual is nice to protect our lands from wasteland (i chose taiga because I can play more spells with it, but it is maybe not the best choice, or mb -1 fetch -1 taiga +1 trop +1 badlands, because we play 4 shaman). It is not the case of a pure Tempo deck, which should normally need only 2 lands to be functional, these 2 lands producing blue.

What I'm trying to say is : if I wanted to play Tempo, I would play Rug, if I wanted to play Burg (because it rocks:)), I would play NLT.

That argument doesnt really make sense to me. Could you explain in detail how a deck that works on 3 or more lands should be a better Stifle deck than a deck which can work on 2 lands just fine for just about the same cards except it has cheaper threats? Otherwise i am pretty much on all that DemolitionColorScheme said.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

What I'm trying to say is : if I wanted to play Tempo, I would play Rug, if I wanted to play Burg (because it rocks:)), I would play NLT.
But ... isn't BURG Tempo basically just on the exact gameplan as RUG? The difference between RUG and BURG is that BURG is trying to implement more utility for stuff that cripples RUG (especially G1). It's slightly less streamlined than RUG, but has more outs and can swing boardstates better than RUG can; it's what makes the BURG concept interesting for me, personally.

The NLT concept of having Stifles and Bolts to make way for the midgame seems counterintuitive to me, since NLT isn't optimising that window I talked about; it's just trying to prolong the early game while you reach the midgame / endgame so you can resolve Jace, a Goyf or one of 3 Cliques (I feel 3 Cliques is way too much mainboard, by the way). The whole Tempo / Stifle idea is to pump out one or two cheap early threats, dig for permision and hold that early game state so you can ride it to victory; you're pressuring them to find an answer to that boardstate, crippling them in developing their own. I fear that having Stifle in NLT isn't really optimising the use of it and will end up as dead draws most of the time because you're simply, once again, not really making use of the window Stifle opens.


Shaman should not be attacking in the first few turns anyway to represent answers. Also active Deathrite Shaman + dropped threat and maybe counterbackup or more mana disruption should be equally destructive while coming up a lot more than the Jace on Turn 2.
And I agree with this, especially vs BUG Delver. If I have a turn 1 Shaman out, it's never attacking. It's staying untapped if I don't have to use it right there, even if it's just for Daze-bluffs in their turns or EoT eating their fetchland/Wasted Dual (if I don't have B or G open for draining/gaining, that is), minimizing their own DRS-food and making the likelyhood of them dropping Tombstalker smaller and smaller. Same goes for the mirror or RUG Delver, to keep them off of Threshold. I even do this when DRS gets Bolted/whatever, even if I have nothing to do with the mana, I will just eat a fetch/land. It might sound insignificant, but it's something I've thought myself during the years and has won me games now and then.

[pe5e]

But ... isn't BURG Tempo basically just on the exact gameplan as RUG? The difference between RUG and BURG is that BURG is trying to implement more utility for stuff that cripples RUG (especially G1). It's slightly less streamlined than RUG, but has more outs and can swing boardstates better than RUG can; it's what makes the BURG concept interesting for me, personally.

A lot of people seem to not understand that simple concept though but once you get it most things should explain themself.


The NLT concept of having Stifles and Bolts to make way for the midgame seems counterintuitive to me, since NLT isn't optimising that window I talked about; it's just trying to prolong the early game while you reach the midgame / endgame so you can resolve Jace, a Goyf or one of 3 Cliques (I feel 3 Cliques is way too much mainboard, by the way). The whole Tempo / Stifle idea is to pump out one or two cheap early threats, dig for permision and hold that early game state so you can ride it to victory; you're pressuring them to find an answer to that boardstate, crippling them in developing their own. I fear that having Stifle in NLT isn't really optimising the use of it and will end up as dead draws most of the time because you're simply, once again, not really making use of the window Stifle opens.


And I agree with this, especially vs BUG Delver. If I have a turn 1 Shaman out, it's never attacking. It's staying untapped if I don't have to use it right there, even if it's just for Daze-bluffs in their turns or EoT eating their fetchland/Wasted Dual (if I don't have B or G open for draining/gaining, that is), minimizing their own DRS-food and making the likelyhood of them dropping Tombstalker smaller and smaller. Same goes for the mirror or RUG Delver, to keep them off of Threshold. I even do this when DRS gets Bolted/whatever, even if I have nothing to do with the mana, I will just eat a fetch/land. It might sound insignificant, but it's something I've thought myself during the years and has won me games now and then.

Couldnt agree more. Great disscusion.

[JosephK]

About Burg/RUG :


But ... isn't BURG Tempo basically just on the exact gameplan as RUG? The difference between RUG and BURG is that BURG is trying to implement more utility for stuff that cripples RUG (especially G1). It's slightly less streamlined than RUG, but has more outs and can swing boardstates better than RUG can; it's what makes the BURG concept interesting for me, personally.

Lol. This is what I'm trying to explain from the beginning. Burg Tempo is worse than RUG because you need 3 mana sources to play all your spells. That's why I said that i would play Rug if I wanted to play Tempo.
To keep a Tempo deck, but a bit more midrange, you can remove the stifles, like sawatarix did (previous page) and follow a bug gameplan, but this is risky (stifle also protects the manabase). I would also play Goyf instead of mongoose in this case.


Shaman should not be attacking in the first few turns anyway to represent answers. Also active Deathrite Shaman + dropped threat and maybe counterbackup or more mana disruption should be equally destructive while coming up a lot more than the Jace on Turn 2.

Okay you have drs + 2 lands in play. I'm the control player. I land go. You dealt 2 damage. I agree that the match up vs Rug is good because you have Stifle + Drs, that is to say, more mana than you need (and you always need mana vs rug).
You never tried Jace turn 2. Instant win (even vs elves).

About NLT :


I fear that having Stifle in NLT isn't really optimising the use of it and will end up as dead draws most of the time because you're simply, once again, not really making use of the window Stifle opens.
That's a legitimate observation. Stifle gives you 1 turn ahead. In pure Tempo decks, this means :1 more hit by my creatures. In NLT it can mean that (it's less efficient in this sense though) but it also and especially means : I get 1 mana ahead of my opponent. This is crucial in Control mirrors. The Window is the same in time, the usage is just different.


Could you explain in detail how a deck that works on 3 or more lands should be a better Stifle deck than a deck which can work on 2 lands just fine for just about the same cards except it has cheaper threats?
It is more logical to play NLT if you want to play 4 colours, because of the mana configuration, because of Deathrite Shaman that is more of a control tool. Then, it's hard to answer the question, is NLT better than its Tempo twin ? It depends on the metagame. NLT does generally better against Control decks. It remains a 50/50 deck.

[Kael]

In NLT it can mean that (it's less efficient in this sense though) but it also and especially means : I get 1 mana ahead of my opponent. This is crucial in Control mirrors. The Window is the same in time, the usage is just different.

This is an interesting point, but getting 1 mana ahead of your opponent seems less relevant when your spells inherently cost more to cast. Part of the power of Tempo Thresh (RUG or bUrg) is that you can trade resources and get ahead 1 mana with Stifle, but actually threaten to kill them with that difference in mana. In NLT, if you're 1 mana ahead - say, you're on two mana and they're stuck on one because of your Wastelands/Stifles - you still can't cast many of your threats, so you don't get to capitalize on being ahead until 1-2 turns later. Obviously there are always critical turns in games of Magic where one mana makes the difference, but I'm just having difficulty seeing this happen enough in NLT to justify Stifle.

[Tormod]

Sure, I would be glad to get some feedbacks :).

First, here is my list (4c-NLT):

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga


4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force Spike

SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

With 2 free Sb slots depending on the meta. Fire Covenant/Electrickery/Spell Pierce/Envelop/Engineered plague...



Some remarks :

.The creature configuration is quite usual regarding the NLT strategy. I just added Drs that fits perfectly. Maybe a few words : Mongoose doesn't have enough late game to be played here, and doesn't close games fast enough. Vendilion Clique is just better than TNN in NLT. Playing both MD is too heavy for this 20 land deck and I couldn't find room in the sb (tnn doesn't exactly help vs bad match ups).
.Because of 3cmc drops, i prefer force spike to a third spell snare, but pierce can be used instead. Daze is very bad : you need your land drops. Force spike is also there to afraid the opponent (he will also be afraid of Daze btw).
.I used to play Life MD, then sb, and then I completely dropped it, because I need my slots for match ups like elves/painter/show and tell.
.I consider Sylvan library as a fifth Tarmogoyf and as a third Jace.
.It's an old debate : should NLT play 21 Lands and 2 Ponder or 20 Lands and 3 Ponder ? With Drs now in the pack, I chose the second option.

I used to play the usual Burg Tempo deck, then I switched to the delverless list by Carsten Linden, and I finally got this list, that fits my playstyle. Getting Jace to filter lands out of my opponent's draws is just exhilarating.

I didn't know what to play last week and I saw your post and had a chance to sleeve the deck up for my local weekly.

Here's how it went:

Match 1 vs American Delver
2-0 I suspect some inexperience from my opponent lead to a fairly easy victory. Having 4 stifle and wasteland mean I was the control. Game 2 my opponent kept on tundra wasteland, and fell quickly my wastelands and sylvan.

Match 2 vs Show and Tell
2-1 Lost game one, won game 2 when my opponent kept on ancient tomb... Game 3 I played masterfully allowing my opponent to resolve a turn 2 show and tell to Emmy allowing me to drop a 2nd land into play to accompany my drs and turn 1 land. Turn 2 I untap, drop land 3, tap for 3 play Liliana. Opponent FOW's I respond with REB. Lily resolves, Emmy gets sacked. My opponent is down to one card. Clique after my next untap reveals gris and a land. I tuck gris. Lilly, Clique and DRS get the job done in 4 turns, while I clutch a Krosan grip.

Match 3 vs Dredge.
I lose this one, I probably could have played better. Evaluated threats incorrectly

Match 4 vs DnT
I lose this one in 2. Their mana denial plan with vial + equipment was effective at shutting me down.
2-1

I did enjoy playing the list. I admit I wish I could have SB'd some delvers into the list when I faced Dnt and Dredge. I think I would like to try 2 stifle more a defensive plan to wasteland rather than run 4 as a denial plan, because of the absence of daze. I would try 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce. The Jace fateseal plan them off lands never came up for me.

[kingsey]

Posting from phone...excuse me :)

Thinking of switching from bug to burg for my local. I like this list. Has anyone played it or want to give me suggestions? I play 4 stifles in bug so I know I'm unique as it is.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt

[Kamus]

Posting from phone...excuse me :)

Thinking of switching from bug to burg for my local. I like this list. Has anyone played it or want to give me suggestions? I play 4 stifles in bug so I know I'm unique as it is.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt

This is exactly the same list I posted before. O think this should be great

[kingsey]

what would your side board look like

[JosephK]

I didn't know what to play last week and I saw your post and had a chance to sleeve the deck up for my local weekly.

Here's how it went:

Match 1 vs American Delver
2-0 I suspect some inexperience from my opponent lead to a fairly easy victory. Having 4 stifle and wasteland mean I was the control. Game 2 my opponent kept on tundra wasteland, and fell quickly my wastelands and sylvan.

Match 2 vs Show and Tell
2-1 Lost game one, won game 2 when my opponent kept on ancient tomb... Game 3 I played masterfully allowing my opponent to resolve a turn 2 show and tell to Emmy allowing me to drop a 2nd land into play to accompany my drs and turn 1 land. Turn 2 I untap, drop land 3, tap for 3 play Liliana. Opponent FOW's I respond with REB. Lily resolves, Emmy gets sacked. My opponent is down to one card. Clique after my next untap reveals gris and a land. I tuck gris. Lilly, Clique and DRS get the job done in 4 turns, while I clutch a Krosan grip.

Match 3 vs Dredge.
I lose this one, I probably could have played better. Evaluated threats incorrectly

Match 4 vs DnT
I lose this one in 2. Their mana denial plan with vial + equipment was effective at shutting me down.
2-1

I did enjoy playing the list. I admit I wish I could have SB'd some delvers into the list when I faced Dnt and Dredge. I think I would like to try 2 stifle more a defensive plan to wasteland rather than run 4 as a denial plan, because of the absence of daze. I would try 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce. The Jace fateseal plan them off lands never came up for me.

It's great ! Nice that you tested it :)

American delver is quite easy indeed, thanks to spell snare, Jace (they can't deal with it) and because of the fact that Clique can protect Tarmogoyf from Decay. EDIT : I'm talking about Bug Delver. I guess American delver is UWR Delver. Postside it's easier (we have too many removals for their 10-threat deck). But as usual TNN and batterskull are hard to handle. I usually take the aggro G1. Clique is great vs batterskull though.
Show and tell is not an easy match up at all in my experience. Great that you won ! It's very hard to win G1 (no pierce MD in my list). Diabolic Edict helps even if it's not that good against griselbrand . I see that you ran Liliana (in the sb ?). I didn't do it because I wanted to remain reactive (i tap out mainphase for Jace and sometimes for goyf only) and because I was afraid of the BB in the mana cost (edict can also be flashbacked by scm).
Dredge is not that bad. You have stifle for narco, surgical for ichorid/narco and counterspells to slow them down. And Drs can help. Manaless is a lot harder. But this can be dealt with by running adequate sb cards. I don't run cage because of scm. This is a choice, mb not the best. I regret Delver because i could bolt it early, not so much for the pressure.
Vs D1T, I board in 2 bitterblossom. If it hits the table in the early turns, it's always gg. This match up is the only reason I don't run Golgari charm in my sb, but this may be a mistake. This is what I do :
+2 Bitterblossom +1 Izzet Staticaster +1 Forked Bolt +2 Edict +1 Grudge -1/2 Goyf -1 Counterspell -2/1 Fow (OTP/OTD) -2 Jace -1 Force Spike
Then, if I had Fire covenant/Charm in my sb, I go -1 Fow +1 Fire Covenant (generally i have something in the flex slots).
I don't know if you're okay with this. It has worked for me.

The Jace fateseal plan often occurs in the Shardless/Death-Stoneblade MU. But it needs setup :).
Playing 2 Stifle is an idea. Stifle really shines vs Control/Midrange matchups (Miracle, Shardless, Stoneblade), vs Ant and vs Rug. It depends on your meta. If there is a lot of Sneak Show, I think it's the right choice.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, getting back to non-NLT BURG;
the Taiga, it's the bane of my existence, haha. It keeps haunting me in my opening hands and keeps laughing at my face; "How do you like this awesome hand, huh? Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Taiga, FoW, Brainstorm, Stifle - cool huh!?" This would've been a no-brain keeper with any blue dual or fetch. :cry: To me, this makes the deck slightly less consistent and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. I feel the manabase needs some work, to be perfectly honest.

The same sometimes goes for having a Volcanic and a DRS, although that's obviously less worse than the Taiga. The only Red we run mainboard is 4 Bolts. In the sideboard I have 2 Pyroblast, 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Fire Covenant. I'm contemplating on, if I keep running with the Taiga, to drop 1 Volcanic for the 4th Scalding Tarn. Any thoughts on that? We'd still have 1 Taiga and 1 Volcanic + 3 to 4 DRS. For me, the Black spash feels larger, with me running 2 Abrupt Decay main and sideboard; 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Fire Covenant, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Surgical Extraction (though it's often no issue to pay 2 life, of course) and I also feel that - for the tempo race - I need to be able to use DRS offensively, so Black seems to be more desirable.

Also, once again, Mongoose seems to be getting worse and worse with so much DRS-packed decks in the current meta. While the shroud is absolutely awesome, it's the better tool in control match ups, but vs. stuff like BUG Delver, it takes a pretty long while for it to reach Threshold. I'm contemplating going to 4 DRS and 2 Goose instead of the 3/3 split. This is the exact reason why I run 3 Geese and 1 TNN, because TNN gets in there right away and pitches to FoW as well.

The deck feels clunky now and then. I realize that, while I was running 4C Delver with the Young Pyromancers, I was actually basically just playing Grixis Delver, the green splash was just for a few sideboard cards and, in all honesty, that list did feel more consistent to me.

[Kamus]

what would your side board look like

1 Vendilion Clique
3 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam

[Kael]

So, getting back to non-NLT BURG;
the Taiga, it's the bane of my existence, haha. It keeps haunting me in my opening hands and keeps laughing at my face; "How do you like this awesome hand, huh? Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Taiga, FoW, Brainstorm, Stifle - cool huh!?" This would've been a no-brain keeper with any blue dual or fetch. :cry: To me, this makes the deck slightly less consistent and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. I feel the manabase needs some work, to be perfectly honest.

The same sometimes goes for having a Volcanic and a DRS, although that's obviously less worse than the Taiga. The only Red we run mainboard is 4 Bolts. In the sideboard I have 2 Pyroblast, 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Fire Covenant. I'm contemplating on, if I keep running with the Taiga, to drop 1 Volcanic for the 4th Scalding Tarn. Any thoughts on that? We'd still have 1 Taiga and 1 Volcanic + 3 to 4 DRS. For me, the Black spash feels larger, with me running 2 Abrupt Decay main and sideboard; 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Fire Covenant, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Surgical Extraction (though it's often no issue to pay 2 life, of course) and I also feel that - for the tempo race - I need to be able to use DRS offensively, so Black seems to be more desirable.

Also, once again, Mongoose seems to be getting worse and worse with so much DRS-packed decks in the current meta. While the shroud is absolutely awesome, it's the better tool in control match ups, but vs. stuff like BUG Delver, it takes a pretty long while for it to reach Threshold. I'm contemplating going to 4 DRS and 2 Goose instead of the 3/3 split. This is the exact reason why I run 3 Geese and 1 TNN, because TNN gets in there right away and pitches to FoW as well.

The deck feels clunky now and then. I realize that, while I was running 4C Delver with the Young Pyromancers, I was actually basically just playing Grixis Delver, the green splash was just for a few sideboard cards and, in all honesty, that list did feel more consistent to me.

I've only played the deck in two small events, but I feel the same about it's clunkiness. I had to mull two hands with Taiga Wasteland. I fetched for Taiga Usea, then had to decide between casting a cantrip and holding up Stifle. No matter how you set up your lands in the first few turns, there's some configuration of draws you can have that makes your mana awkward.

I like cutting the Volc for an 8th fetch though. I'm going to be running the deck through some number of side events at the GP this weekend, probably with this mainboard:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt

Not 100% sure on the sideboard yet, though. I'll let you know how the 1 Volc works out.

[crush]

I don't think running a Taiga with only 1 Volcanic is correct. Probably you will be better off with 2 Volcanics. Taiga is (imo) only good if you want to protect yourself from being cut off one color completely.

I suggest you to run 4 Deathrites to smooth out the mana issues - it has worked fine or me.

My current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman (they smooth out draws and hinder opposing shamans)
3 Nimble Mongoose (3 is enough for me, since they come down to finish the job)
2 Vendilion Clique (great vs Miracles, Blade & combo)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (great for protecting threats)
3 Stifle (I had to cut one, because playing with 61 cards isn't great :-) )
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library (a real powerhouse!)

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

This list is excellent vs tempo, combo and control decks, but has a tendency to lose vs midrange (that could easily be my fault)

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I've only played the deck in two small events, but I feel the same about it's clunkiness. I had to mull two hands with Taiga Wasteland. I fetched for Taiga Usea, then had to decide between casting a cantrip and holding up Stifle. No matter how you set up your lands in the first few turns, there's some configuration of draws you can have that makes your mana awkward.

I like cutting the Volc for an 8th fetch though.
I'll let you know how the 1 Volc works out.
The thing I have learned is that Taiga is great as the third land so they can't cut you off and therefore I don't feel it's often correct to fetch it out as the 2nd land, because you can't threaten Spell Pierce / Snare effectively, since you want to drain with DRS. But, this is so different from RUG Delver, where you can basically just operate perfectly fine on two lands.


I don't think running a Taiga with only 1 Volcanic is correct. Probably you will be better off with 2 Volcanics. Taiga is (imo) only good if you want to protect yourself from being cut off one color completely.

I suggest you to run 4 Deathrites to smooth out the mana issues - it has worked fine or me.
It's all wrong, to be honest. The Taiga is wrong and the Volcanics are wrong, but ... I don't see another way besides all of this to not get into these situations. You want 2 Blue so you can offensively counter and not tap out constantly and have Taiga sit there open, providing little threat being untapped. The Taiga itself isn't really that bad, it's that sometimes it's just unwanted and other times it's the perfect 3rd land, but having the chances for it to be in your opening hand or getting there when you really don't care for it makes me seriously consider just dropping it for another Tropical or Fetch.

The 4th Shaman I've considered, but I don't necessarily feel that'll fix the clunkiness, to be very honest.


My current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman (they smooth out draws and hinder opposing shamans)
3 Nimble Mongoose (3 is enough for me, since they come down to finish the job)
2 Vendilion Clique (great vs Miracles, Blade & combo)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (great for protecting threats)
3 Stifle (I had to cut one, because playing with 61 cards isn't great :-) )
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library (a real powerhouse!)

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

This list is excellent vs tempo, combo and control decks, but has a tendency to lose vs midrange (that could easily be my fault)
Taiga is less needed in your list because you don't run Goyfs (which might explain why you do less well vs midrange) and run 2 Clique in its place. Double U is therefore more important in your list. Your list looks fine, but I would highly suggest moving Sylvan to the SB and up the Stifle count to 4.

[Kamus]

The thing I have learned is that Taiga is great as the third land so they can't cut you off and therefore I don't feel it's often correct to fetch it out as the 2nd land, because you can't threaten Spell Pierce / Snare effectively, since you want to drain with DRS. But, this is so different from RUG Delver, where you can basically just operate perfectly fine on two lands.


It's all wrong, to be honest. The Taiga is wrong and the Volcanics are wrong, but ... I don't see another way besides all of this to not get into these situations. You want 2 Blue so you can offensively counter and not tap out constantly and have Taiga sit there open, providing little threat being untapped. The Taiga itself isn't really that bad, it's that sometimes it's just unwanted and other times it's the perfect 3rd land, but having the chances for it to be in your opening hand or getting there when you really don't care for it makes me seriously consider just dropping it for another Tropical or Fetch.

The 4th Shaman I've considered, but I don't necessarily feel that'll fix the clunkiness, to be very honest.


Taiga is less needed in your list because you don't run Goyfs (which might explain why you do less well vs midrange) and run 2 Clique in its place. Double U is therefore more important in your list. Your list looks fine, but I would highly suggest moving Sylvan to the SB and up the Stifle count to 4.

agreed

[Kael]

I don't think running a Taiga with only 1 Volcanic is correct. Probably you will be better off with 2 Volcanics. Taiga is (imo) only good if you want to protect yourself from being cut off one color completely.

I suggest you to run 4 Deathrites to smooth out the mana issues - it has worked fine or me.

My current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman (they smooth out draws and hinder opposing shamans)
3 Nimble Mongoose (3 is enough for me, since they come down to finish the job)
2 Vendilion Clique (great vs Miracles, Blade & combo)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (great for protecting threats)
3 Stifle (I had to cut one, because playing with 61 cards isn't great :-) )
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library (a real powerhouse!)

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

This list is excellent vs tempo, combo and control decks, but has a tendency to lose vs midrange (that could easily be my fault)



Besides the obvious fact that 61 cards is bad, why 3 Stifle? I'd gladly cut the Sylvan, the third pierce, or the 13th dude before cutting a Stifle from your list.

[Tormod]

Besides the obvious fact that 61 cards is bad, why 3 Stifle? I'd gladly cut the Sylvan, the third pierce, or the 13th dude before cutting a Stifle from your list.

I don't think there is anything wrong with running less than 4 stifle. The card isn't as good as it used to be and really only shines against bad opponents who likely you would have beaten anyways.

In bUrg, I think 2 stifles is fine. This gives you enough stifles to use defensively to protect your manabase against wasteland. With 4 Delvers and 4 Shaman, its super awkward to leaving open mana turn 1 to hopefully catch a fetchland being cracked. I must rather play my threats and push out win. Playing tempo requires having a threat in play to advance the plan.

[kingsey]

Played tonight. I enjoyed the deck.
Beat sneak and show
Beat Pox
Lost a tight one vs miracles main deck reb? Lame
Lost vs ant. Sometimes that deck has the nuts.

It was a nice change from bug. Lightning bolt owns!

[pe5e]

I don't think there is anything wrong with running less than 4 stifle. The card isn't as good as it used to be and really only shines against bad opponents who likely you would have beaten anyways.

In bUrg, I think 2 stifles is fine. This gives you enough stifles to use defensively to protect your manabase against wasteland. With 4 Delvers and 4 Shaman, its super awkward to leaving open mana turn 1 to hopefully catch a fetchland being cracked. I must rather play my threats and push out win. Playing tempo requires having a threat in play to advance the plan.

That is naive view. You build your whole deck around Stifle( or should at least) if you play it. So playing less than 4 copies is just inaccurate. If you play it then play 4.
Also there is no reson to play less then 4 Stifle with Miracles and all those 3 coloured midrange decks flying around. I just ignore the last two sentences. I dont feel like covering how to play Stifle in a tempo deck yet again. Just look at some older pages.

[Tormod]

That is naive view. You build your whole deck around Stifle( or should at least) if you play it. So playing less than 4 copies is just inaccurate. If you play it then play 4.
Also there is no reson to play less then 4 Stifle with Miracles and all those 3 coloured midrange decks flying around. I just ignore the last two sentences. I dont feel like covering how to play Stifle in a tempo deck yet again. Just look at some older pages.

Naive... Yet you're the one declaring universal truths regarding card selection.

You sound like a scrub that just discovered the format.

[pe5e]

Naive... Yet you're the one declaring universal truths regarding card selection.

You sound like a scrub that just discovered the format.

I dont want to be mean or anything. Maybe I just cant express myself well enough(my english isnt the best ether). But if you only play like the 2 Sitlfes for protecting your manabase is it really worth to keep the fourth colour in the deck if you follow that plan?
Again i didnt try to attack you or anything.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

That is naive view. You build your whole deck around Stifle( or should at least) if you play it. So playing less than 4 copies is just inaccurate. If you play it then play 4.
Also there is no reson to play less then 4 Stifle with Miracles and all those 3 coloured midrange decks flying around. I just ignore the last two sentences. I dont feel like covering how to play Stifle in a tempo deck yet again. Just look at some older pages.
I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. Stifle is definitely a huge part of a tempo deck's plan. It shouldn't really have to be in there just to save our own manabase. Maybe I'm coming off as slightly rude here, but you either play 4 Stifle (MAYBE 3) or you simply don't. Its effectiveness is derived from its redundancy; getting one in the early game is pretty important; running 2 would absolutely ruin those chances.

[crush]

I have cut one Stifle after I found myself in a position where I felt the game was slowly slipping away a few times while I held a couple of Stifles in my hand. Having a Sylvan Library which allows you to trade life for answers (i.e. land, threat, removal, counter..) is key in a lot of matchups.

Also, I found myself Stifling fetches less and less aggressively, unless I see them stumbling with land drops. This might net me a lot less free wins, but helps against random blowouts from opposing Wastelands - i.e. cutting you off one color and making you have 2 dead cards of that color in hand.

I honestly think it boils down to play style and "gut feel". Currently 3 Stifles are giving me the perfect mix of utility, protection and free wins.

[kingsey]

I think stifle is very strong. It also interacts with miracle cards, sneak attack, top, rest in peace, batterskull. Etc..

[Tormod]

I dont want to be mean or anything. Maybe I just cant express myself well enough(my english isnt the best ether). But if you only play like the 2 Sitlfes for protecting your manabase is it really worth to keep the fourth colour in the deck if you follow that plan?
Again i didnt try to attack you or anything.

Calling someone Naive isn't the best way to have a civil conversation.



I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. Stifle is definitely a huge part of a tempo deck's plan. It shouldn't really have to be in there just to save our own manabase. Maybe I'm coming off as slightly rude here, but you either play 4 Stifle (MAYBE 3) or you simply don't. Its effectiveness is derived from its redundancy; getting one in the early game is pretty important; running 2 would absolutely ruin those chances.

You're coming off as a fanboy who has been drinking the "Stifle Kool Aid" who has bought into this "4 of or nothing" rhetoric. Regarding the tempo plan, you can see that Stifle is the LEAST important card in the tempo decks. That why most tempo decks outside of Canadian Thresh don't run stifles and for a time Thresh dropped stifle as well in favor of more spell pierce. You can search deck list and see how many tempo decks use fewer than 4 stifles and how many use none at all. SCG last week the 2nd place BUG deck ran 3 stifles, the 3rd place deck ran none. This is magic, the unsolvable game. This is also bUrg in the development thread where you go to find and do things different. When you already decided there are "TRUTHS" to card selection, you've already decided you have nothing to contribute and you're only parroting rhetoric.

[pe5e]

You gotta be carefull here though. BUG, RUG and Uwr Tempo are entire diffrent decks when it comes to creating tempo plays. Simple because one of them doesnt play Stifle doesnt tell a lot about the role that Stifle can forfill in other tempo decks. RUG for example is the best deck for Stifle(even better than burg delver), while BUG and Uwr are slightly slower in there clock because of higher casting costs for their threats and disruption. They tend to tap out more often then we do so Stifle is less reliable here. RUG on the other hand can perfectly balance developing threats and disrupt the opponent because the entire decks costs only 1 mana(except Goyfs). So they want to make their deck as consistent as possible by playing playsets.

And since Burg is RUG Delver + black playing Stifle as a 4 off is logical because we are aiming for the same strategy as RUG Delver.

Yes, there was a time when RUG Delver was cutting Stifles in favour for more removel and Spell Snares. But that was back then when Maverick was still a deck to beat. Against Maverick Stifle is kinda bad particularly on the draw. But todays meta game is largely defined by 3-coloured decks and Miracles. Stifle is fantastic against those decks. If the meta shifts again towards decks that can neutralize Stifle then maybe we should cut Stifle again. For now though it seems wrong to do so.

And saying that Stifle isnt as powerful as it used to be seems wrong. Just because people can play around it doesnt mean it is bad. Daze and Spell Pierce can be ignored too but only if they staybalize and it is our job to prevent that. They also cant always play around it even if they know about it.

I am sorry if i seemed rude at my last comment but i just got annoyed by this comment:


I don't think there is anything wrong with running less than 4 stifle. The card isn't as good as it used to be and really only shines against bad opponents who likely you would have beaten anyways.


I hope we can keep this conversation healthy and polite.

[Tormod]

Read carefully: Playing less than 4 stifles DOES NOT MEAN "Stifle is bad"


I've been playing this deck since Sasan started this thread, I often don't bother posting in this thread because I see a lot of theory crafting that goes no where, or some eager beaver thinks they reinvented the wheel when they post up their list and it looks exactly like the same lists from last year.

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

Seriously, why are you trying to stop me from saying its fine to play less than 4 stifles?

[Kael]

Read carefully: Playing less than 4 stifles DOES NOT MEAN "Stifle is bad"

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.


I'm pretty sure most people are running 3 Shaman, which makes for 11 potential turn 1 plays. Regardless, either 11 or 12 is fine, as it nearly insures you have a powerful turn 1 play (whereas RUG is less likely to have an opener with either Delver or Stifle), and multiples are typically not an issue, as all three make for perfectly decent turn 2 or later plays. If they were dead cards post turn 1, your point would be relevant.


Regarding the tempo plan, you can see that Stifle is the LEAST important card in the tempo decks. That why most tempo decks outside of Canadian Thresh don't run stifles and for a time Thresh dropped stifle as well in favor of more spell pierce. You can search deck list and see how many tempo decks use fewer than 4 stifles and how many use none at all.

Patriot and TA are tapout tempo decks, and Stifle is a less relevant card to their gameplan as a result. The card, being the flexible powerhouse that it is, is still usable, but not necessary like it is in Canadian or bUrg.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

You're coming off as a fanboy who has been drinking the "Stifle Kool Aid" who has bought into this "4 of or nothing" rhetoric. Regarding the tempo plan, you can see that Stifle is the LEAST important card in the tempo decks. That why most tempo decks outside of Canadian Thresh don't run stifles and for a time Thresh dropped stifle as well in favor of more spell pierce. You can search deck list and see how many tempo decks use fewer than 4 stifles and how many use none at all. SCG last week the 2nd place BUG deck ran 3 stifles, the 3rd place deck ran none. This is magic, the unsolvable game. This is also bUrg in the development thread where you go to find and do things different. When you already decided there are "TRUTHS" to card selection, you've already decided you have nothing to contribute and you're only parroting rhetoric.
I was expecting replies like this one ... Maybe I should've added; "In my opinion" - I can get behind 3 Stifles, but 2? For me, again - personally - I don't see the use. Like I mentioned, its effectiveness is derived from its redudancy. Besides, like pe5e mentioned, it is a part of a gameplan - a plan we can adapt nicely like RUG Delver:


You gotta be carefull here though. BUG, RUG and Uwr Tempo are entire diffrent decks when it comes to creating tempo plays. Simple because one of them doesnt play Stifle doesnt tell a lot about the role that Stifle can forfill in other tempo decks. RUG for example is the best deck for Stifle(even better than burg delver), while BUG and Uwr are slightly slower in there clock because of higher casting costs for their threats and disruption. They tend to tap out more often then we do so Stifle is less reliable here. RUG on the other hand can perfectly balance developing threats and disrupt the opponent because the entire decks costs only 1 mana(except Goyfs). So they want to make their deck as consistent as possible by playing playsets.

And since Burg is RUG Delver + black playing Stifle as a 4 off is logical because we are aiming for the same strategy as RUG Delver.

Yes, there was a time when RUG Delver was cutting Stifles in favour for more removel and Spell Snares. But that was back then when Maverick was still a deck to beat. Against Maverick Stifle is kinda bad particularly on the draw. But todays meta game is largely defined by 3-coloured decks and Miracles. Stifle is fantastic against those decks. If the meta shifts again towards decks that can neutralize Stifle then maybe we should cut Stifle again. For now though it seems wrong to do so.

And saying that Stifle isnt as powerful as it used to be seems wrong. Just because people can play around it doesnt mean it is bad. Daze and Spell Pierce can be ignored too but only if they staybalize and it is our job to prevent that. They also cant always play around it even if they know about it.
It's that pe5e replied before I had the chance or I would've basically said the same.



I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

Seriously, why are you trying to stop me from saying its fine to play less than 4 stifles?
Now, just to be clear: nothing is WRONG, really. Some of what we're saying might come off as us denying any other possibility, but we're just discussing what we - personally - feel works for us in BURG and try to explain why we feel that to be the case. For me, BURG plays a lot like RUG Delver and honestly, Stifle isn't just for the turn one fetch. A lot of the meta has slowed down with a lot of midrange, like BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, JUND, Deathblade, Miracles, Patriot/UWR Delver, etc; a lot of these decks operate on two or more lands. Cutting them off from the 2nd land is just as good as Stifling their first in a lot of ways. Over the months I've actually grown fond of the combination of DRS and Stifle / 1 mana softcounters. DRS gives us the possibility of Wasting their land and keeping DRS open to play around their Dazes or Stifling their fetch, sometimes even with mana open to play around a Spell Pierce or Daze. This often results in the Stifle 'sticking' instead of being a 1 for 1 trade with a counter / softcounter. Being able to overcome opposing Wasteland tricks with an open DRS and a Stifle also becomes a lot easier.

For example, if I'm on the play and have a hand that has; Wasteland / DRS / Daze / Delver / Stifle / Fetch or Sea or Tropical / Spell Pierce/Bolt/Cantrip-or whatever there's almost no way they'll overcome the jump you gain on them. Play DRS, Daze their one-drop, Waste their Dual, Play a Delver and keep DRS open for Stifle/Spell Pierce/Bolt (depending on your draws), the tempo gained is so huge that you're highly favored to win that game. I playtested a lot today with a friend of mine who mains BUG Delver (and pilots it really well) and I went 5-0 in a row due to these absolutely dirty hands that are worth mulliganing into (which wasn't really that often). In a meta like we have today, it feels that Stifle is once again at the top of its game - and no, that's not the Stifle-fanboy in me talking. :wink:


I'm pretty sure most people are running 3 Shaman, which makes for 11 potential turn 1 plays. Regardless, either 11 or 12 is fine, as it nearly insures you have a powerful turn 1 play (whereas RUG is less likely to have an opener with either Delver or Stifle), and multiples are typically not an issue, as all three make for perfectly decent turn 2 or later plays. If they were dead cards post turn 1, your point would be relevant.

Patriot and TA are tapout tempo decks, and Stifle is a less relevant card to their gameplan as a result. The card, being the flexible powerhouse that it is, is still usable, but not necessary like it is in Canadian or bUrg.
Exactly. And besides, those decks have a gameplan that's a lot slower than ours / RUG Delver's and therefore can't really optimize the window that Stifle does actually present us.

[sawatarix]

Came back from the weekly tournamanet in berlin with my Burg Delver Deck,finished first.

The Deck is a real Powerhouse and to me it feels like a better version of Team America.
I still run these Creatures:

4 Delver
4 Shaman
4 Tarmnogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique

The 2 Cliques could also be other Creatures because they are only great in midgames.
They are pretty hard to cast if you don't have a shaman on board.
Grim Lavamancer in the maindeck could also be an idea.


One of my favourite Sideboardcards is nihil spellbomb.
This card cantrips and helps against any deck with nimble mongoose/knight of the reliquary/life from the loam which is quite problematic sometimes.
Grim Lavamancer are also nuts against any fair deck, they kill every creature except tarmogoyf.
grim lavamancer and lightning bolts are the strongest arguments to play this deck over team america.

In future I'm going to experiment with cards like izzet staticaster and electrickery instead of golgari charm , see how it goes.

[Flojo82]

Can u please Post your complete List.

Thx

[Hof]

Nice results. I might try this deck soon.
Grim Lavamancer is certainly very powerful, but considering your maindeck reliance on the graveyard (deathrite and goyf), don't you expect some fair decks to bring in graveyard hate against you? I would fully expect D&T to bring in 2-3 Rest in Piece for example. How effective is Lavamancer in those cases?

[sawatarix]

rest in peace is fine, we have spell snare and abrupt decay to handle it.

My current list hasn't really changed:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion CLique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sb:
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Counterspell
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the loam

[Kamus]

Read carefully: Playing less than 4 stifles DOES NOT MEAN "Stifle is bad"


I've been playing this deck since Sasan started this thread, I often don't bother posting in this thread because I see a lot of theory crafting that goes no where, or some eager beaver thinks they reinvented the wheel when they post up their list and it looks exactly like the same lists from last year.

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

Seriously, why are you trying to stop me from saying its fine to play less than 4 stifles?

Did you forget Ponder, right?
Using RUG Delver as example, I can say I usually prefer to play Ponder on turn 1, instead os stifle.
Stifle is not a bad card at all, it does amazing things in several games, but I feel I'd like to have another card in my hand the majority of times. Mongoose is terrible in turn 1, Delver is usually the best card to be played, but in a situation I do not have a delver for turn 1, I think I prefer to ponder, instead of leaving my land untapped, expecting my opponent plays a fetchland to stifle, when actually it will NOT happen MANY times.

[Satisfied_Yeti]

I can say I usually prefer to play Ponder on turn 1... I think I prefer to ponder, instead of leaving my land untapped

I really dislike Pondering on my first turn unless there is something specific I am looking for. I'd rather play my land and pass the turn, especially if I have Stifle. This is even more true if I do not know what my opponent is playing.

[Kael]

Missed the registration for one of the Saturday side events at GP:Portland, so I only ended up playing 1 event. Ended up a pretty miserable 3-2, losing to TA and Belcher, of all things. I played this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Fire Covenant
2 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

Round 1: Team America with Confidants, Stifles, and TNNs

Lose the roll, game comes down to a very close race between TNN and my DRS. Definitely punted, as on an earlier turn I ended up tapping out for an Abrupt Decay (killing a Goyf, I think) with Force, Blue card, Fetch in my hand, while continuing to beat down with a Mongoose. Sandbagged the Fetch out of habit, but he was down to 1 card in hand and his only real out was TNN with counter backup, he has TNN + Daze for my Force. Sideboard into more of a controlling role, bring in most of my removal, side out Dazes, Pierces, some number of Forces. Keep a hand with a few removal spells, Wasteland, Loam, and lands. eat his Deathrite and Goyf, and start knocking out his lands with Loam + Wasteland. He never has enough mana to resolve another threat, but his Delver flips, and takes me down over 6 turns as I Dredge one of my Decays away, topdeck a Submerge the turn after I Wasted his last land (a Bayou), and shuffle off of two Ponders, not finding anything else. He only manages to find 1 other mana source after the first few Wastelands, but it's a fetch, and he refuses to crack it, either because he's expecting Submerge, or he's scared of Stifle. On the last turn before I die, I decide to wing it, and hope he's just really scared of Stifle. In an act of desperation, I make an effort of tapping two of my lands to cast a Delver, tapping myself out, and make a show of passing the turn without using the extra mana. On my end step, he attempts to capitalize on my "blunder" by cracking his fetch (no idea why, I just tapped myself out into his lethal board), getting a Trop. I let the fetch resolve, then try to Submerge the Delver. He Dazes... Apparently he left in Daze on the draw.

Round 2: Jund

He runs out Bloodstained Mires on turns 1 and 2, attempting to crack both on his second turn. First gets a Bayou, I Stifle the second. His only other mana sources are two Groves, so even though Punishing Fire eats my Deathrite, he never gets to BBE or Lili mana, and 3 Nimble Mongeese beat him down. Game 2, He keeps a 2 lander, and never draws another land. 2 angry Mongeese take him out quickly, as he decided to Hymn me twice, giving me Threshold on turn 3.

Round 3: Bant

He floods a bit in game 1, Decay and Force take care of his Knights while my Tarmogoyf easily races his Sylvan Safekeeper and Hierarch. Game 2 I mulligan to 5, but I have Loam, Wasteland, Bolt, and two lands. Bolt his Hierarch and Waste lock him out of the game pretty early. Ancient Grudge did work, taking out two Engineered Explosives before he could activate them.

Round 4: Belcher

My opponent arrives nearly 10 minutes late, but that wasn't an issue given his choice of deck. I beat him game 1 easily off of Pierce + Force. I keep Fluster, Force, blue cards, Delver, and land game 2, but he opens with Chrome Mox, Petal, then Land Grants, revealing another Land Grant, ESG, and Empty. Can't find an answer to the Goblins in time. Game 3 I draw one of those lovely hands with Taiga as the only mana source and no Force. 6 has no lands, no Force. 5 is double Force, triple blue card, which is pretty good, all things considered. I pass, and he Land Grants, revealing Swarm, Seething Song, LED, LED, Petal, Rit, Wish. I can't hope for much better, as I can Force the Swarm now and then Force his Wish next turn. I draw another blue card and pass back. He goes Petal, Rit, Song, LED, LED...Empty. What a player.

Round 5: Burn

Deathrite barely keeps me alive in both games as Tarmogoyf beats him to death. Nothing special.




Despite some fairly frustrating losses, I really like the manabase like this. The Taiga isn't ideal, but it's just something we have to deal with, and it really helped in a few games. Going down to 2 red sources felt pretty solid in the games I was jamming against Jordan and Greg, along with the 5 rounds I played it in. I'm going to stick pretty close to this list for now, I think.

[Rosy]

sawatarix thanks for the list :smile:

Is spell snare really that good in this deck? I know it is a nice tempo card and you can counter quite a lot of cards with it but it is a situational card. I personally add another copy of spell pierce.

[pe5e]

Is spell snare really that good in this deck? I know it is a nice tempo card and you can counter quite a lot of cards with it but it is a situational card. I personally add another copy of spell pierce.

Well, Spell Pierce is just as situational as Spell Snare is. What card you play or if you play a split depends on the cards you face more often. Also Spell Snare is a hardcounter at every stage of the game, which can be pretty relevant since Pierce could be played around here. I like to play a 2/1 split of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare main and some number of addional Snares in the SB.

[Rosy]

Well, Spell Pierce is just as situational as Spell Snare is. What card you play or if you play a split depends on the cards you face more often. Also Spell Snare is a hardcounter at every stage of the game, which can be pretty relevant since Pierce could be played around here. I like to play a 2/1 split of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare main and some number of addional Snares in the SB.

I understand that Spell Snare is hardcounter at any stage of the game but I suppose that you dont want the game to be too long with this deck. I guess Spell Pierce might be slightly better in RUG (or deck with Stiffles in general). Oldschool counterspell would be great but there is that taiga issue :smile:

Anyway I will test 2/2 split and see..

[sawatarix]

because some people asked me about my decklist during the last couple of weeks, here a short explanation why i moved frokm the opening list.

I have been playing the deck since it was spoilered after grand prix strassbourg last year with 4 nimble mongoose alongside stifle, spell snare and 2 tarmogoyfs (later true name nemesis to combat decks like death/taxes and jund).
the deck felt great until grand prix paris this spring when i lost to many rounds because of the manabase.
i mean, the manabase has always been the weakest part of the skeleton, as we all know.
but not making day 2 because of it was so...frustrating, i remember the loss to merfolk because i had 2 pyroblasts in my hand and 2 tropical island and 1 underground sea on the battlefield.another game a single wasteland took me completely out of the game until i drew my taiga with my hand full of blue cantrips.

so, i noticed to myself after that: play more lands/deathrite shamans.
the 19th land came in and also the 4th shaman.
tarmogoyf came also in, this time the whole playset because our bad/harder matchups are the grindy ones like shardless bug or jund where nimble mongoose is not the best thread against opposing tarmogoyfs.accoringly spell pierce got a place in the main deck instead of spell snare: tarmogoyf is weak to removal spells like swords to plowshares or dismember so spell pierce has a protection role in this deck.

stifle is also out and most of you will say: 'stifle is a great card to generate a tempo advantage/protect our manabase'.while this is true, it is not really playable before turn 3 because all i want to do with this deck is to deploy threads on turn 1 and on turn 2 and then keep mana open to disrupt my opponent/protect my dudes/kill theirs.so stifle would be active after my opponent has already 1-2 lands in play which is not ideal.
keeping a mana open to stifle a fetchland on turn 1 is far from good if we don't have a creature to pressure our opponent at the same time.
it is similar to a time walk: if we don't have any creatures the time walk is just a 'draw1, untap all your lands' which is not great at all.
drew levin also wrote a rug delver primer 2 years ago and he also argues against stifle.


if you have further questions, please let me know.

[Tormod]

I hav been playing bUrg as long if not longer than Sawatrix and i am in full agreement with Sawatrix on his current list which is a first because in the past we have differered over card choices. A lot of our discussion from last year iss exactly the same as the discussions im reading now. Goyf vs goose. Stifles, abrupts. #shaman, taiga...Perhaps the meta game we are facing have become similar, after all we live half way around the world from each other.

Sawatrix does an excellent job explaining his choices.

Another thing I have been thinking about. Some folks like to say that burg is rug with deathrite and that always felt like an awkward explanation. Then I saw the Prague Champs 4th place list called "Bug with Bolt". So I realise that for some burg is rug with deathrite and for some its Bug with bolt. Which will Influence design.

[sawatarix]

For me the deck has become Bug with bolts and more importantly pyroblast and grim lavamancers (but without clunky shit like hymn to tourach or tombstalkers in the main).
especially grim lavamancer is really underplayed in a format full of creatures with toughness 1/2.

[Tormod]

I agree. Its my view that the stronger build of burg is BUG w/ bolts. The defining characteristics being 3+ abrupt decay, Tarmogoyf, 4 DRS.

The defining characteritics of "RUG w/ Drs" bUrg being stifles and mongoose.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I agree. Its my view that the stronger build of burg is BUG w/ bolts. The defining characteristics being 3+ abrupt decay, Tarmogoyf, 4 DRS.

The defining characteritics of "RUG w/ Drs" bUrg being stifles and mongoose.
That's a good way of looking at it. The list you guys run looks more like BURG Midrange and the lists some of us run is more in the vein of BURG Tempo. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I simply don't have 4 Goyfs, so I haven't been able to test the list you guys run, but for kicks I will proxy the two Goyfs and will test the list you two seem to like so much.

[Kael]

That's a good way of looking at it. The list you guys run looks more like BURG Midrange and the lists some of us run is more in the vein of BURG Tempo. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I simply don't have 4 Goyfs, so I haven't been able to test the list you guys run, but for kicks I will proxy the two Goyfs and will test the list you two seem to like so much.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I just really don't like the idea of playing such a fragile manabase without Stifles as protection, but I suppose I'll proxy up some Goyfs and try it out as well.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, I've been assembling BUG Delver as well, since that's a deck I love as well and I've been collecting the Goyfs right now. Currently, I have 3 Goyfs, so I'm considering dropping the one True-Name for an extra Goyf in BURG Delver. The upside of the TNN is that it pitches to FoW, is virtually another shroud creature and can block meanies all day. However, Goyf can do this as well, especially in a Goyf/Goyf staredown, it's basically the same thing, but it can break a staredown, being able to get through Goyfs/chumpblockers. The other upside to TNN is that it can nullify a Batterskull. The downside is that it screws with our Golgari Charms (even though the chance is smaller, since I only run 1 TNN). The upside is is that TNN doesn't require green, so can be cast when they're trying to cut us off from green; however, Goyf is 1 mana cheaper. Haha, these things make making a decision all the harder. What are your guys' thoughts on this?

This is my current list:
LANDS [18]:
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

CREATURES [13]:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

INSTANTS [25]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

SORCERIES [4]:
4 Ponder

SIDEBOARD [15]:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Bitterblossom
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[Kael]

That's 59 of the 60 I've been playing - for me it was -1 TNN +1 Goose (I just love that guy too much). I've been messing around with Siska's UR Delverstill list the past few weeks, so I haven't gotten much of a chance to test the "BUG with Bolts" build.

I never liked TNN in the list, personally. To me, it feels like Fastbond in Vintage Gush without black. You rarely ever draw it, and when you do, it's generally not at a time where you can use it optimally. I find that I don't have my third land yet, or I still want to hold up Pierce/Stifle/Snare, or I want to AD something.

[Qweerios]

To follow on the BUG w/ Bolts and RUG w/ DRS bandwagon, I would have to agree that the TA version is better than the thresh version. I think that if RUG had access to cards like Abrupt Decay in RG, Stifle would be the first card they would cut for it. Dropping Stifles from the main meant that I needed more copies of essential dual lands to survive 2+ Wastelands so in came the 20th land. Being left with only Bolts, Decays, and Pierce as reactive spells with Pierce being the only pure reactive one, the switch from Clique to TNN was smooth and easy. I came to the same exact list Sawatrix plays with the exception that my Cliques are TNN, the lone Spell Snare is a 3rd UDG Sea, and that I play a 3rd Tropical Island instead of the Taiga (I never liked that card in this deck).

Personally I like TNN in every deck that can play it. The card is amazing and a shrouded unblockable delver is all we need to win a game at any stage. TNN also fills a crucial role when a Batterskull manages to slip into play and we need to stall until we find that Ancient Grudge or enough Decays and Bolts to get lethal damage in.

On an unrelated note, what do you guys think about Thoughtseize in the SB as our main combo hate to complement our counter suite? I believe that diversifying your angle of disruption is much better than stacking up on cards like Flusterstorm.

[Tom]

I have really been thinking a lot about the best creature configuration.

In the tournaments i played and also online i found the "original" configuration to be the best and most successful:

3 DRS
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver

However, I realized that only having these as a critter package sometimes seemed too unstable, therefore I tested Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, True-name Nemesis and even Pyromancer (as 2-ofs in each case).

TNN dies to the very potent Golgari Charm. Goyf has the well- know graveyard-hate drawback and dies to Swords to Plownshares. Bob either wins you the game or does not even survive until your next untap step (cannot counter everything ;) )

What to do? Maybe replace these 2 flex- creature spot with instants or sorceries, but options are (too) vast. I thought about Vapor Snag.

What do you think?

(Sorry for not having any card tags, still figuring out how to do them as i do not post regularly…)

[Pelikanudo]

I have really been thinking a lot about the best creature configuration.

In the tournaments i played and also online i found the "original" configuration to be the best and most successful:

3 DRS
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver

However, I realized that only having these as a critter package sometimes seemed too unstable, therefore I tested Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, True-name Nemesis and even Pyromancer (as 2-ofs in each case).

TNN dies to the very potent Golgari Charm. Goyf has the well- know graveyard-hate drawback and dies to Swords to Plownshares. Bob either wins you the game or does not even survive until your next untap step (cannot counter everything ;) )

What to do? Maybe replace these 2 flex- creature spot with instants or sorceries, but options are (too) vast. I thought about Vapor Snag.

What do you think?

(Sorry for not having any card tags, still figuring out how to do them as i do not post regularly…)

I found this the best configuration also.
I recently was testing 4 Delver 4 DRS and 3 TNN, but the one you expose seems the perfect.

What I suggest is adding 1 Silvan Library, its just wonderfull and serves as a Creature slot.

[Tom]

Library sound good indeed. That still leaves one slot for another beater…

[Kael]

Only running 12 dudes + 1 Library seems to be a little low threat-wise. I'd try to find room for a 13th critter somewhere.

Switching topics a bit, has anyone considered Treasure Cruise? I haven't actually tested the card, but Greg is advocating it's use in TA, which probably means it could fit in a Stifle-less build here as well. On one hand, being in 4 colors means we're fairly limited on how many good cards we can stick in the 75, but we also have access to 4 Bolt, which interacts nicely with Cruise due to it's cheap cost and flexible effect.

[kryllex]

I'm Currently Running 2 Treasure Cruise in a Pyromancer-BURG build with Stifles, and i have to say... this card is insane. Like, literally, insane! Grave is filling super fast, and casting an "Ancestral Recall" in legacy? I had to laugh while playing, because it felt just completely unreal. I also tested it with Tarmogoyf+Deathrite. Goyf never got smaller, and Deathrite just keeps his thingies going. I mean - WHAT?!

Treasure Cruise. Try it. Seriously, try it.

[mote5]

I've been playing "Spy Kids" with 3 Treasure Cruise(s) in place of Edric, Fire/Ice, and the 4th Stifle. I agree, the card is insane. I don't know what to cut for the 4th Treasure Cruise, but with three, they are always live, so I think it can support the full playset. With only Deathrite and Treasure Cruise looking towards the graveyard, do you think Rest in Peace/other graveyard hate will be sided in against us? Should you side out your TCs when playing against any W deck? Would this configuration influence when to side in Cabal Therapy?

[the_goat]

hello everyone...last two weekends I was in Milan and I played 2 torunaments (41 players the 1st and Ovinogeddon - 476 players)

I played in both tournaments almost same 75 cards

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vendilion Clique


4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Fire/Ice
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Treasure Cruise (only change --> 1 snapcaster + 1 snare in 1st tournament)

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

1st tournaments 4-1-1 into top 8 quarterfinal loss

round 1 - 1-0
I won with Elves burning/destroying every creature hitting the board and countering glimpses
round 2 - 2-0
I met Death and Taxes and I won by applying enough pressure and out of the side forked bolt + grudge + golgari charm were stellar
round 3 - 3-0
BUG Delver g1 he kept heavy hand with planeswalkers/tourach and died to a t1 delver flipped g2 - I think he was manascrewed long enough for me to lead the race.
round 4 - 3-1
I lost to junk/maverick - g1 early chalice for 1 locked me out...g2 I won pretty fast...g3 early chalice...I go cleanup step discard grudge...second chalice...I have decay...third chalice I have no reply and I die because of a 20/20 token
round 5 - 4-1
ANT I win 2-0...too many counters/pressure...g2 I resolve both shaman and lavamancer...that killed 2 green insects...I win without attacking (only shaman/lavamancer damage + his own probes/fetches)
round 6 - ID with Omniscience

top8 QF - I lose to team America...g1 I lose badly g2 I win easily g3 after 4 wastelanda I am stranded without red and green...with lavamancer on the field vs empty board...he topdecks treasure cruise that flips the board in his vantage...gg

Ovinogeddon - 9 rounds - I close 6-3

round1 - 1-0 miracles
nothing to say here...if you counter their sensei's top matchup becomes immediately favorable...he did not play around daze game 1 turn 1... I had force OTD game 2 turn 1 --> both games went smooth.
round2 - 1-1 S&T/hypergenesis
a friend of mine killed me in 2 fast games with a sweet S&T brew featuring hypergenesis/omniscience package...g2 I tried to resist keeping one land daze daze reb shaman delver goyf...I countered first s&t with REB...I countered first hypergenesis with double daze (he used SSG to pay the first) and tried to counter with pierce the third attempt (he had misdirection)...in both cases Mr.Emrakul sealed fast the deal.
round 3 - 2-1 team italia
I do not remember much of the two games but the plan wasteland + daze/pierce prevented him from playing any threats long enough for my delver to win.
round 4 - 3-1 MUD
G1 I lose the die roll and I kept a hand with 4 "one drops" and 3 lands - he started with ancient tomb into chalice for 1...I forced one trinisphere and he was locked with only 2 lands...after few discard phases from both sides I topdeck vendilion clique...and I found out he had all spells with mana cost 4 or more...few turns after i found decay to finish him with bolts
G2 I countered a couple of early chalice and killed metalworker...I finished him off with ancient grudge and clique again.
round 5 - 3-2 Patriot
G1 I win pretty fast...so fast I believed he was canadian...as I saw only stifles and delvers and a UR fetch for Volcanic
G2 I keep greedy monolander and get punished by his wasteland/stifle plan
G2 he kills me by resolving 2 treasure cruises...I look at my golgari charm (i was waiting for Rest in Peace) hopeless...when he told me that since he plays tresure cruise RIP is not in sideboard anymore.
round 6 - 4-2 miracles
Johannes is an Austrian friend I met in Prague at Prague Eternal - I know what he plays and i know he is a good player - luckily he does not know what I play - G1 he keeps a hand with Terminus and he does not find a brainstorm to shuffle it away...my fast delver kills him...G2 I counter an early top and my goyf is big since the first attack to finish him fast...he resolves a Terminus when low on life but I have clique backup plan
round 7 - 4-3 Nic Fit
Unwinnable matchup in my opinion... G1 I counter early top and first explorer but he finds sakura and another explorer + cabal to gain million mana...he closes the game with a baloth race. G2 I am on a favorable board position...eating his life total with goyf + shaman...I counter GSZ and he topdecks Scavenging Ooze with plenty of green mana...
round8 - 5-3 Canadian
I do not recall much of this matchup...I think I won easily 2-0
round9 - 6-3 BUG Delver
We both know we play for the glory as prizes were for top 32 only...I win easily 2-0 topdecking everytime the card I needed...counter or removal...I resolve in both games treasure cruise and the game is pretty much over.

I will definitely remove the 2 lavamancers from side...they are really good...but I plan to play 3 treasure cruises now on...after talking to another Czech player and to an Italian player that plays same list, I plan to cut fire/ice for the third decay and to play in side second golgari and second submerge.

[Qweerios]

I also have some results to post as I played 4c Delver decks over the past 3 weeks in various small tournaments. All 3 lists were different and the first one is more black heavy (more like the Grixis green thread). I finished 1st or tied for 1st in all 3 tournaments. Here are the results and the lists:

1st tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

0-2 vs. BUG Landstill
2-1 vs. Miracle Control
2-1 vs. DnT
2-0 vs. Team America


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 2 Trop, 2 Volc, 1 Badlands)

This deck focused more on black than green and favored cards like Marsh Casualties over Golgari Charm, and Liliana over Diabolic Edict both in the main and the side.

2nd tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

2-0 vs. UB Control w/ CounterTop
2-1 vs. Elves
2-1 vs. Deathblade

For this small tournament I was using the following configuration:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 3 Trop, 2 Volc)

This was mostly a test run as I wanted to try out more mana and Nemesis > Goyf. It worked out fine but in the end I did return to 4 Goyfs.

3rd tournament (Treasure Cruise was legal)

2-0 vs. Esperblade
2-1 vs. MUD
2-1 vs. Team America

Using:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

19 Lands (8 fetch, 2 Trop, 2 Udg Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bayou)

This iteration focused more on reactive play by moving TNN to the SB and playing Stifles. Bayou is much stronger than Taiga on all accounts as there are far more cards that require black mana than green mana.

Moving forward I really like the last deck's manabase and was really welcoming the Bayou. The first list I tried had Tombstalker which was an absolute bomb whenever I would land him against most decks but now that we have Treasure Cruise available, I will definitely be using that card as my new bomb. Stifle was a bit underwhelming overall and will probably make way for TC. With only Spell Pierce left as a reactive spell I believe TNN is much better than Clique as a mainboard card.

[Grizzlybeer]

I also have some results to post as I played 4c Delver decks over the past 3 weeks in various small tournaments. All 3 lists were different and the first one is more black heavy (more like the Grixis green thread). I finished 1st or tied for 1st in all 3 tournaments. Here are the results and the lists:

1st tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

0-2 vs. BUG Landstill
2-1 vs. Miracle Control
2-1 vs. DnT
2-0 vs. Team America


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 2 Trop, 2 Volc, 1 Badlands)

This deck focused more on black than green and favored cards like Marsh Casualties over Golgari Charm, and Liliana over Diabolic Edict both in the main and the side.

2nd tournament (Treasure Cruise was not legal yet)

2-0 vs. UB Control w/ CounterTop
2-1 vs. Elves
2-1 vs. Deathblade

For this small tournament I was using the following configuration:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf

3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

20 Lands (8 fetch, 3 Udg Sea, 3 Trop, 2 Volc)

This was mostly a test run as I wanted to try out more mana and Nemesis > Goyf. It worked out fine but in the end I did return to 4 Goyfs.

3rd tournament (Treasure Cruise was legal)

2-0 vs. Esperblade
2-1 vs. MUD
2-1 vs. Team America

Using:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

19 Lands (8 fetch, 2 Trop, 2 Udg Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bayou)

This iteration focused more on reactive play by moving TNN to the SB and playing Stifles. Bayou is much stronger than Taiga on all accounts as there are far more cards that require black mana than green mana.

Moving forward I really like the last deck's manabase and was really welcoming the Bayou. The first list I tried had Tombstalker which was an absolute bomb whenever I would land him against most decks but now that we have Treasure Cruise available, I will definitely be using that card as my new bomb. Stifle was a bit underwhelming overall and will probably make way for TC. With only Spell Pierce left as a reactive spell I believe TNN is much better than Clique as a mainboard card.

It looks like all these lists are missing cards.

[Qweerios]

It looks like all these lists are missing cards.

Its because they are the cards that never change... but here they are anyways:

4 Ponder, 4 BS, 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Bolts

[hofzge]

Here is my Treasure Cruise based take based on the Goat's suggestions:


3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce

3x Ponder
4x Treasure Cruise

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard

1x Ancient Grudge
1x Dismember
1x Flusterstorm
1x Forked Bolt
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize

I cut one of the sacrisanct Ponders for the fourth Treasure Cruise. No idea if that is ok.

[the_goat]

I cut one of the sacrisanct Ponders for the fourth Treasure Cruise. No idea if that is ok.

I think 3 would be optimal number for Treasure Cruise...quite often you see 2 of them in one game and you barely manage to cast the second copy...
Ponder is one of those cards that are often "saving the boat" by digging 3 on top and eventually a 4th card post shuffle...

Another change I do not like much is the -1 submerge and -1 flusterstorm...both cards are too good to be removed...
submerge is a pseudo-removal that allows you to gain a lot of tempo...especially if you cast it in response of a fetch or in response to a shuffle effect...
flusterstorm is most of the times behaving like an hard counter...not only against ANT...it's good with S&T and reanimator...

Test your changes and let us know how it works for you!

[sawatarix]

@the goat: is it you,igor? :D

well written report,my current list is almost the same than yours.
I love to play it but everytime i go a tournament i prefer ant because of the different powerlevel :D

[Tormod]

IMO, Treasure Cruise renders Sylvan Library obsolete in this archetype.

[blablub]

With Treasure Cruise you can't play mongooses, do you all agree that goyf is the replacer? or someone tries Nemesis? for example 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Nemesis. I'm not sure if its ok to play without shroud creatures, do you have thoughts?

[mog]

I think Tarmogoyf is the correct replacement for Mongoose. To be fair, I have not and will not test it with True-Name Nemesis because I believe it is too slow. I've been testing a variation of Treasure Cruise BURG using Tarmogoyf for the last few weeks with excellent results (including GPT and SCG IQ wins) but your mileage may vary. I have also included a 19th land consistent with other players in this thread though I continue to play Stifle.

[the_goat]

@the goat: is it you,igor? :D

well written report,my current list is almost the same than yours.
I love to play it but everytime i go a tournament i prefer ant because of the different powerlevel :D

@sawatrix: hello kai yes sir! it'e me :laugh:

i found a couple of post from you and I recognized you too :wink:


IMO, Treasure Cruise renders Sylvan Library obsolete in this archetype.

@Tormod - treasure & library are two different approaches to library manipulation/card drawing...I would not say library is obsolete...the effect keeps repeating every round...while treasure let you draw 3 immediately...at virtually no cost...and this allows you to close the game faster (card advantage) and replace the top 3 for the next draw steps...I personally do not play library in my 75...test both of them and let us know!


With Treasure Cruise you can't play mongooses, do you all agree that goyf is the replacer? or someone tries Nemesis? for example 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Nemesis. I'm not sure if its ok to play without shroud creatures, do you have thoughts?

@blablub - I would never play more than 1 nemesis - goyf is the creature to play in this deck - if opponent uses removal on it this means your delvers/shamans will finish the opponent. Nemesis cannot race a germ token or a bigger goyf...the philosophy of this deck is to be as much efficient as possible and nemesis often will sit there to prevent opponent from attacking...don't get me wrong in the right shell (mystic+equipments) is the creature you want to play...in the tempo strategy we try to follow no...


I think Tarmogoyf is the correct replacement for Mongoose. To be fair, I have not and will not test it with True-Name Nemesis because I believe it is too slow. I've been testing a variation of Treasure Cruise BURG using Tarmogoyf for the last few weeks with excellent results (including GPT and SCG IQ wins) but your mileage may vary. I have also included a 19th land consistent with other players in this thread though I continue to play Stifle.

@mog - do you mind sharing your 75?

[hofzge]

I think 3 would be optimal number for Treasure Cruise...quite often you see 2 of them in one game and you barely manage to cast the second copy...
Ponder is one of those cards that are often "saving the boat" by digging 3 on top and eventually a 4th card post shuffle...

Another change I do not like much is the -1 submerge and -1 flusterstorm...both cards are too good to be removed...
submerge is a pseudo-removal that allows you to gain a lot of tempo...especially if you cast it in response of a fetch or in response to a shuffle effect...
flusterstorm is most of the times behaving like an hard counter...not only against ANT...it's good with S&T and reanimator...

Test your changes and let us know how it works for you!

Thanks the_goat!
You were totally right on all accounts. I replaced the Cruise with the Ponder as you only need to draw 2 TCs to see you don't want that.

Also the the second Flusterstorm is back in. I would really like to play even a fourth REB if somehow possible.

I still don't like Submerge, but I added some earlier interaction with creatures as that will be more important going forward.

Here again a list:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Spell Pierce
2x Flusterstorm
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Forked Bolt
2x Golgari Charm
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Ancient Grudge

What are the best sideboard cards against Miracles? Sylvan Library or Bitterblossom or REBs?
Do we need more anti control stuff?

[the_goat]

What are the best sideboard cards against Miracles? Sylvan Library or Bitterblossom or REBs?
Do we need more anti control stuff?

Against Miracles
On the play - I side out 4 lightning bolt and 1 Force of Will - I bring in 2 REB 1 Pyroblast 1 Pierce 1 Fluster
On the draw - I side out 4 ligthning bolt only (we want FOW to counter turn 1 sensei's top - keep in mind Miracles should side out FOW as well and they do not play daze) and i bring in 2 REB 1 Pyroblast 1 Pierce

I do not play nor Library nor Bitterblossom so I do not know how good those cards are in sideboard.

[mog]

My deck is:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Spell Snare
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Chill

My sideboard is in flux at this time. My experience against Burn has been poor so I've included a Chill in the sideboard. Regarding the main, it is my belief that the first Spell Snare is better than the first Spell Pierce or the fourth Stifle so it is included here. In addition, I've given up on the two lands mana base for the moment. Taiga increases opening hand mulligans about 2% and is very poor when drawn in the early game against Wasteland decks. In general, I moved to four Deathrite Shaman and a 19th land in order to cast Treasure Cruise for three mana in game one. Also, I side out one or two lands against many decks.

Best regards,

mog

[iostream]

My deck is:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Spell Snare
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Chill

My sideboard is in flux at this time. My experience against Burn has been poor so I've included a Chill in the sideboard. Regarding the main, it is my belief that the first Spell Snare is better than the first Spell Pierce or the fourth Stifle so it is included here. In addition, I've given up on the two lands mana base for the moment. Taiga increases opening hand mulligans about 2% and is very poor when drawn in the early game against Wasteland decks. In general, I moved to four Deathrite Shaman and a 19th land in order to cast Treasure Cruise for three mana in game one. Also, I side out one or two lands against many decks.

Best regards,

mog
Thanks very much for sharing your list and your reasoning. With regards to Spell Snare, have you considered playing another Abrupt Decay over the Spell Snare? It seems very, very strong in the Miracles and D+T heavy East Coast metagame which we should expect at GP NJ. With regards to Treasure Cruise, it seems like this deck has the velocity to support all four. What has been your experience?

[mog]

I have considered the Abrupt Decay but I do not use it because the mana is the shakiest part of this deck and I think that a third Decay can cause problems against opponents playing Wasteland. That said, I do bring in two Golgari Charm and a Fire Covenant against Death and Taxes. In the case of Golgari Charm and Fire Covenant, I think the rewards are much greater than with Abrupt Decay and that they are worth the potential strain on the mana. In addition, I think Spell Snare provides additional utility against cards like Baleful Strix, Infernal Tutor, etc. that can't be covered by an Abrupt Decay. It's my way of trying to balance counters and board interaction in this deck. I think double Golgari Charm, Fire Covenant, and Umezawa's Jitte are enough to handle Death and Taxes. Regarding Miracles, I almost always lose to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, sweepers, and Swords to Plowshares rather than Counterbalance. That's been my experience, take it for what it's worth.

[mog]

Regarding Treasure Cruise, while it has been great for me in testing, it is very slow at times given the number of reactive spells that are in the deck. It works very well when I have a hand full of cantrips and fetchlands and Lightning Bolt but can be very cumbersome with draws that include duals. I haven't done much testing with the fourth Treasure Cruise but it seems to me that a four Treasure Cruise deck needs to be more proactive with burn or Gitaxian Probe and run a higher proportion of fetchlands. It is the best possible topdeck in many midgame situations but it hasn't worked out well in multiples unless I already have a great draw. I'll test more with it in the future.

[iostream]

Not sure if people have seen this, but an interesting take on 4-color won second place at the Danish Legacy Masters this past weekend:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8310&d=247776&f=LE

19 LANDS
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island

13 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

28 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chain Lightning
1 Counterspell
1 Red Elemental Blast

Interesting choices include cutting Tarmogoyf completely (probably just to clean up the mana base even further, I imagine?) and Spell Snare (!?, seems terrible, but maybe I just don't understand at all).

[Goddik]

Hi guys

That is my list. A couple of notes

1) The deck is pure theory-craft built. I had not tested it before the event. It is mostly based on success over the last few months playing RUG with true name nemesis instead of tarmogoyfs to accomodate a local meta overrun by 4c loam. List:http://mtgpulse.com/event/16761#236363 . It is not particularly rooted in 4c delver, and i think more of it as a u/r deck splashing deathrite shaman and abrubt decay.

2) The philosophy was to try to keep some of the power of the u/r delver lists running treasure cruise, while adding more grindy elements that gives a better miracles and combo matchup (shaman, decays, actual interaction beyond daze/force, sideboard)

The list obviously did some things right, but there were also some things i would work on going forward. In particular, because of the slow creature suite and the lack of stifle, it often felt like i was playing a slightly grindy controll deck, rather then a tempo deck. Specific observations:

A) Treasure cruise
This card was insane whenever i cast it. unfortunately it does not enable itself. I was often stuck with cruises without enough cards in the yard. This makes me feel like i should be playing more cantrips, either probe or thought scour

B) Creature configuration.
I am 100% sure that tarmogoyf is a terrible creature that i do not want in my decklist, because he gets trumped too easily by tnn and plowed all day long, i am however, not certain what to replace him with. in a meta full of Jund and 4c loam, i would certainly play true-name, but it might be that pyromancer is simply so synergistic with the cantrip plan that he is better. Snapcaster is also very usefull in a deck full of proactive 1 drop spells.

C) Spell snare/spell pierce
These were god-awfull for me all day. I don't remember a single time where i played them. They were primarily included in the list to give me combo interaction. They were bad already in the deathrite meta, but with treasure cruise they are even worse, because i want to cast my disruption pro-actively. I will be running thoughtseize going forward

D) Wastelands
I routinely sideboarded these out against combo and u/r delver to become more spell-dense. This makes me believe that this sort of deck, when playing as a treasure cruise deck, rather than as an agressive deck, might not want wasteland...

E) Manabase
The manabase is not optimal and collapses under a stiff breeze. This is even worse without stifle. Adding an extra land is certainly on the table....

Conclusions:
I feel like treasure cruise is one of the most powerfull cards in the format, and deckbuilding should start with 4 tc, and then work backwards as to how to enable it.

Next steps will be to experiment with embracing the cantrip tempo-controll role by cutting the dazes, adding more thought scours, probes and/or preordain, replacing snares and pierce with thoughtseize and operating with a creature suite with some combination of: 4 pyromancer, 4 snapcaster, 4 deathrite 4 true name nemesis and potentially delver.

I would be happy to hear your thoughts, comments or testing results. Please also feel free to throw any questions you might have. The list might not be well-tested, but many of the elements are based on lots of games with other decks, and i had quite strong reasons for chosing the exact 75 i did, even if i might do it differently tomorrow.

[iostream]

Thanks for the reply! Here are some thoughts about your observations:

A) Treasure cruise
This card was insane whenever i cast it. unfortunately it does not enable itself. I was often stuck with cruises without enough cards in the yard. This makes me feel like i should be playing more cantrips, either probe or thought scour

I don't like the idea of playing cards just to fill up the graveyard for Cruise. It makes your cantrips worse (because you just cantrip into cantrips more often instead of actual gas) and your initial draws a lot higher variance since it's impossible to know ahead of time the value of the card you draw off of a Probe or a Thought Scour in your opening hand. I'd rather just play 4 Cruise and risk it. It's like Miracles - they play up to 6 miracles, none of which they ever want in their opening hand. But they do it anyway because they have ways to get them back in the deck (brainstorm). On top of that, we even can pitch them to Force.


B) Creature configuration.
I am 100% sure that tarmogoyf is a terrible creature that i do not want in my decklist, because he gets trumped too easily by tnn and plowed all day long, i am however, not certain what to replace him with. in a meta full of Jund and 4c loam, i would certainly play true-name, but it might be that pyromancer is simply so synergistic with the cantrip plan that he is better. Snapcaster is also very usefull in a deck full of proactive 1 drop spells.

I won't lie, this just sounds completely wrong to me, but I'm willing to test it to see for myself. I just love how Goyf can quickly close out games... Speaking of which, have you considered maindecking a Jitte or two? I think that sounds better than Snapcaster Mage, for what it's worth, since it loosens up your mana a bit and lets you actually close out games in a reasonable amount of time with TNN. Basically every deck can race 3 damage a turn, so I think you need to do something to speed up that clock.


C) Spell snare/spell pierce
These were god-awfull for me all day. I don't remember a single time where i played them. They were primarily included in the list to give me combo interaction. They were bad already in the deathrite meta, but with treasure cruise they are even worse, because i want to cast my disruption pro-actively. I will be running thoughtseize going forward

D) Wastelands
I routinely sideboarded these out against combo and u/r delver to become more spell-dense. This makes me believe that this sort of deck, when playing as a treasure cruise deck, rather than as an agressive deck, might not want wasteland...

These two issues go hand in hand, in my opinion. The mana denial plan of Wasteland is a lot weaker without Stifle or Hymn - basically every Delver deck before Treasure Cruise played one or the other. I think if you want to have a good mana denial plan, those extra counterspells (which you did not like) should just be Stifles.


E) Manabase
The manabase is not optimal and collapses under a stiff breeze. This is even worse without stifle. Adding an extra land is certainly on the table....

And this is another reason to have stifle in the deck!

[TraxDaMax]

Hi guys

That is my list. A couple of notes

1) The deck is pure theory-craft built. I had not tested it before the event. It is mostly based on success over the last few months playing RUG with true name nemesis instead of tarmogoyfs to accomodate a local meta overrun by 4c loam. List:http://mtgpulse.com/event/16761#236363 . It is not particularly rooted in 4c delver, and i think more of it as a u/r deck splashing deathrite shaman and abrubt decay.

2) The philosophy was to try to keep some of the power of the u/r delver lists running treasure cruise, while adding more grindy elements that gives a better miracles and combo matchup (shaman, decays, actual interaction beyond daze/force, sideboard)

The list obviously did some things right, but there were also some things i would work on going forward. In particular, because of the slow creature suite and the lack of stifle, it often felt like i was playing a slightly grindy controll deck, rather then a tempo deck. Specific observations:

A) Treasure cruise
This card was insane whenever i cast it. unfortunately it does not enable itself. I was often stuck with cruises without enough cards in the yard. This makes me feel like i should be playing more cantrips, either probe or thought scour

B) Creature configuration.
I am 100% sure that tarmogoyf is a terrible creature that i do not want in my decklist, because he gets trumped too easily by tnn and plowed all day long, i am however, not certain what to replace him with. in a meta full of Jund and 4c loam, i would certainly play true-name, but it might be that pyromancer is simply so synergistic with the cantrip plan that he is better. Snapcaster is also very usefull in a deck full of proactive 1 drop spells.

C) Spell snare/spell pierce
These were god-awfull for me all day. I don't remember a single time where i played them. They were primarily included in the list to give me combo interaction. They were bad already in the deathrite meta, but with treasure cruise they are even worse, because i want to cast my disruption pro-actively. I will be running thoughtseize going forward

D) Wastelands
I routinely sideboarded these out against combo and u/r delver to become more spell-dense. This makes me believe that this sort of deck, when playing as a treasure cruise deck, rather than as an agressive deck, might not want wasteland...

E) Manabase
The manabase is not optimal and collapses under a stiff breeze. This is even worse without stifle. Adding an extra land is certainly on the table....

Conclusions:
I feel like treasure cruise is one of the most powerfull cards in the format, and deckbuilding should start with 4 tc, and then work backwards as to how to enable it.

Next steps will be to experiment with embracing the cantrip tempo-controll role by cutting the dazes, adding more thought scours, probes and/or preordain, replacing snares and pierce with thoughtseize and operating with a creature suite with some combination of: 4 pyromancer, 4 snapcaster, 4 deathrite 4 true name nemesis and potentially delver.

I would be happy to hear your thoughts, comments or testing results. Please also feel free to throw any questions you might have. The list might not be well-tested, but many of the elements are based on lots of games with other decks, and i had quite strong reasons for chosing the exact 75 i did, even if i might do it differently tomorrow.
Pretty awkward questuon perhaps but how well did Abrupt Decay do for you maindeck? Did they end up being creature removal usually and if so is green worth anything other than DRS lifegain and sideboard options? Like could those Decays have been say Chain Lightning or Terminate? Could be an effort to make the manabase a tad tighter.
In my testing Abrupt Decay is obviously a strong card but has me setup such an awkward landbase on the battlefield that having a land wasted usually sets me back or straight up loses me the game. That's why I'm wondering.

[hofzge]

In my testing Abrupt Decay is obviously a strong card but has me setup such an awkward landbase on the battlefield that having a land wasted usually sets me back or straight up loses me the game. That's why I'm wondering.

That is very true as it now is a double splash and you will seldomly have Underground Sea and Tropical Island as the first lands with all those awesome red cards. This list is ever closer to the 4 TC UR Delver list. the only distinguishing point now is the Deathrite Ahaman and some sideboard cards.

[Water_Wizard]

Hi guys
A) Treasure cruise
This card was insane whenever i cast it. unfortunately it does not enable itself. I was often stuck with cruises without enough cards in the yard. This makes me feel like i should be playing more cantrips, either probe or thought scour

I think if you want to go all-in on treasure cruise you run UR with 4x cruise, 4x probe, 4x swiftspear monk, 4x young pyromancer, 4x delver, 4x daze, 4x fow, 4x brainstorm, 4x ponder, 4x lightning bolt, lava dart, chain lightning, etc.

With bUrg, I think Treasure Cruise is a very powerful card, but I think 3 or 2 is the right number because with 4, we will draw it too many times without enough cards in the graveyard.

[ptahetep]

I've been playing "Spy Kids" with 3 Treasure Cruise(s) in place of Edric, Fire/Ice, and the 4th Stifle. I agree, the card is insane. I don't know what to cut for the 4th Treasure Cruise, but with three, they are always live, so I think it can support the full playset. With only Deathrite and Treasure Cruise looking towards the graveyard, do you think Rest in Peace/other graveyard hate will be sided in against us? Should you side out your TCs when playing against any W deck? Would this configuration influence when to side in Cabal Therapy?

I really enjoy playing the "spy Kids" version. It fit my play style and I am a bit tired of RUG & Goyf. I do not see RIP coming in for DRS or TC. I can see TC being fought with more versatile options such as REB and pierce.

Regarding Cabal therapy, I like the card as an option to fight anoying sideboard option for which our sideboard do not offer enough options, especially game 3 on the draw with the probe in the deck. My sideboard still require alot of work.

I am interested to hear more feedback about your build. I personnaly looking to play 2 TC in place of Edric and Fire/Ice.

[mote5]

I really enjoy playing the "spy Kids" version. It fit my play style and I am a bit tired of RUG & Goyf. I do not see RIP coming in for DRS or TC. I can see TC being fought with more versatile options such as REB and pierce.

Regarding Cabal therapy, I like the card as an option to fight anoying sideboard option for which our sideboard do not offer enough options, especially game 3 on the draw with the probe in the deck. My sideboard still require alot of work.

I am interested to hear more feedback about your build. I personnaly looking to play 2 TC in place of Edric and Fire/Ice.

I've trimmed a Stifle and a Wasteland for another two TCs, and have done some testing with a Pyroblast in place of the fourth FOW.

[JosephK]

Next steps will be to experiment with embracing the cantrip tempo-controll role by cutting the dazes, adding more thought scours, probes and/or preordain, replacing snares and pierce with thoughtseize and operating with a creature suite with some combination of: 4 pyromancer, 4 snapcaster, 4 deathrite 4 true name nemesis and potentially delver.

I would be happy to hear your thoughts, comments or testing results. Please also feel free to throw any questions you might have. The list might not be well-tested, but many of the elements are based on lots of games with other decks, and i had quite strong reasons for chosing the exact 75 i did, even if i might do it differently tomorrow.

I'd like to see your tempo-control list :). Wouldn't Snapcasters and Cruises feel clunky if they're played in the same list ? Did you have any problems casting those during the tournament ?

[Goddik]

hi guys, thanks alot for all the comments.

Have been spending some time playing around with controllish snapcaster cruise builds (little success) and Team America (more success).

A couple of responses below:


I'd like to see your tempo-control list :). Wouldn't Snapcasters and Cruises feel clunky if they're played in the same list ? Did you have any problems casting those during the tournament ?

Played around a bit with an 18 land, deathrite, snapcaster, pyromancer list with thought scours. it drew millions of cards and grinded all day long, but it was not particularly proactive and often lost to opponents who did something proactive that was hard to interact with, e.g. true name nemesis. Maybe playing the same deck with delver instead of pyromancers might work, but i think i am back on the proactive game-plan


With bUrg, I think Treasure Cruise is a very powerful card, but I think 3 or 2 is the right number because with 4, we will draw it too many times without enough cards in the graveyard.

Still disagree. The delver mirror revolves around treasure cruise, and playing more cruise then your opponent is a sure way to win. I want 4. On a side note i have found 4 pretty easy to cast in Team America. I think it helps to play a more proactive build because your creatures by necessity either kill your opponent (win) or die and fuel treasure cruise (win)


Pretty awkward questuon perhaps but how well did Abrupt Decay do for you maindeck? Did they end up being creature removal usually and if so is green worth anything other than DRS lifegain and sideboard options? Like could those Decays have been say Chain Lightning or Terminate? Could be an effort to make the manabase a tad tighter.
In my testing Abrupt Decay is obviously a strong card but has me setup such an awkward landbase on the battlefield that having a land wasted usually sets me back or straight up loses me the game. That's why I'm wondering.


Yes abrubt decay was pretty awkward. I hope to fix this by adding an extra land. I think much of the appeal of playing the deck contra RUG or TA goes away if you can't have decay and bolt in the same deck. If this continues to be a problem i will not be playing 4 colors


I don't like the idea of playing cards just to fill up the graveyard for Cruise. It makes your cantrips worse (because you just cantrip into cantrips more often instead of actual gas) and your initial draws a lot higher variance since it's impossible to know ahead of time the value of the card you draw off of a Probe or a Thought Scour in your opening hand. I'd rather just play 4 Cruise and risk it. It's like Miracles - they play up to 6 miracles, none of which they ever want in their opening hand. But they do it anyway because they have ways to get them back in the deck (brainstorm). On top of that, we even can pitch them to Force.


See the comments above. I am now convinced that we can play 4 in a build without thought scours, provided that we are quite proactive


I won't lie, this just sounds completely wrong to me, but I'm willing to test it to see for myself. I just love how Goyf can quickly close out games... Speaking of which, have you considered maindecking a Jitte or two? I think that sounds better than Snapcaster Mage, for what it's worth, since it loosens up your mana a bit and lets you actually close out games in a reasonable amount of time with TNN. Basically every deck can race 3 damage a turn, so I think you need to do something to speed up that clock.

My perspective is perhaps a bit colored from playing alot against jund, miracles, d&t and 4c loam, all decks against which tarmogoyf is just a big dumb beater. With nemesis it is alot easier to go into aggro control mode because you can ignore large parts of their deck. Tarmogoyf is however very good in the delver mirror where bolts are removal of choice and lands are scarce. He is certainly quite good against the u-r delver deck, and makes your deathrites, dazes and wastelands much better. Maybe a 4 goyf TA style list is better

On the topic of Jitte, i have not generally been a fan of the card because of mana requirements, but it is very good on some of the late-game board states where i have resolved cruises, so i might try it out somewhere in the 75


These two issues go hand in hand, in my opinion. The mana denial plan of Wasteland is a lot weaker without Stifle or Hymn - basically every Delver deck before Treasure Cruise played one or the other. I think if you want to have a good mana denial plan, those extra counterspells (which you did not like) should just be Stifles.


I saw alot of stifle decks do well over the weekend, so there is clearly some resonance to the idea. I am not convinced, however that i want to be a mana denial deck when people are ancestral recalling left and right, i think i would rather be winning the ancestral war. My current top dogs for the anti spell slot are thoughtseize and flusterstorm (which is surprisingly good at winning cruise wars)

[SirTylerGalt]

I like Kevin King's list from the Eternal Weekend - Legacy Trials Top 8:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacytrials



// Creature [13]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis

// Instant [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt

// Sorcery [9]
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Treasure Cruise

// Land [18]
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard [15]
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dismember
1 Fire Covenant
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy

[mog]

I have a simple question for the very few people that play this deck. How do you ever beat UR Delver?

[blablub]

Drop Mungo or Goyf on the Battlefield

I've tested a classic list with Mungos against it. Its not that hard. Just play the Control Deck, the hardest creature to beat is the Pyromancer because of the Tokens, but i play 3 Snare all the time, so it is ok. Without Pyromancer a treshed Mungo or a 4/5 Goyf is so hard to beat for them.

I think you should play more 1 mana Spot Removal at the Moment. I play 2 Disfigures and a Darkblast in my SB, u can easily play more disfigures (for cutting 1 Decay from the Main if u like)

i'm boarding in 3 red blast, 3 flusterstorm, 2 disfigure 1 darkblast

[Tom]

@Blablub: Would you mind sharing your list please?

[laserstone]

What do you think are the pros and cons of playing the Young Pyro version over the Tarmogoyf version?
Playing the YP list, how do you beat UR delver? Without Goyf or Mongoose it seems hard. Maybe Snare in the main? Electrickery in the board?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It's interesting to see that BURG hasn't been totally forgotten. It's still my pet deck and I've always really enjoyed it. I figured Treasure Cruise would make an impact here as well. I transformed my old UR Delver deck in the new version and yes ... Treasure Cruise is the shit, absolutely. However, I'm not really sure it works in BURG. I still need to test it out, because I would love to make room for it. I've never cared much for Nimble Mongoose. It just feels too slow for me at times and has always felt like a bummer having in the early few turns. With Swiftspear running around (another 1/2 creature), I can only see it becoming worse and worse. I'm thinking of removing the Geese for the 4 Delver / 4 Goyf / 4 Deathrite / (1 Clique/whatever) setup and adding another land (probably a fetch). However, I see all these lists just trying to jam 4 TC's in them and dropping Stifle. I don't know ... it just looks wrong to me. UR Delver (running 17 land, 3 basics and 4 duals, 10 fetch) and BUG are both heavy on fetches and Stifles will only create more blowouts. I do however feel that the list could hold 2 (maybe 3) Treasure Cruises and I think that would be a fine adjustment. 4 of them feels right in UR Delver due to the volatile nature of the deck. Not sure if BURG would be the same with it, since it's not running Swiftspear and 7+ Bolts.


I think if you want to go all-in on treasure cruise you run UR with 4x cruise, 4x probe, 4x swiftspear monk, 4x young pyromancer, 4x delver, 4x daze, 4x fow, 4x brainstorm, 4x ponder, 4x lightning bolt, lava dart, chain lightning, etc.

With bUrg, I think Treasure Cruise is a very powerful card, but I think 3 or 2 is the right number because with 4, we will draw it too many times without enough cards in the graveyard.
Exactly. Water_Wizard said it perfectly. UR Delver seems like the perfect shell for the Cruise, BURG not so much. I've always seen BURG as RUG with Abrupt Decay (personally) and I just don't feel Cruise is a tempo card. It's great for grindy matches or decks like UR Delver, where Swiftspear just keeps getting fuel (in a way, sometimes it feels a bit like a combo deck, ha).

[blablub]

i agree with your statements towards TC in this deck, someone asked, so here is the list i will play next weekend:

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Taiga
4 Nimble Mongoose
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Fire Covenant


maybe the Loam doesn't make the cut, not sure,
my personal "secret tech" ist Price of Progress, nobody expect it out of a 4 color-Deck and it wins games on the spot against Deathblade, Jund and Aggro Loam.
I hope that this is enough to fight the Delver/TC decks ;)

[Tom]

Well, I was the one who wanted to know :smile:

Your list seems pretty similar to the one I'm planning to play next weekend.

My list is this:

3 DRS
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Forked Bolt

18 lands with Wastes

SB:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction


Would it be better in the MD to replace the 1-of Forked Bolt by the 4th Mongoose?
I don't think I will play the extractions in the board. I am debating over Submerge, Grim Lavamanver and a few other cards.

The Price of Progress plan seems weird, but I kinda like it.

How has it worked out for you?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I really feel that if you're gonna run with the Goose, you can't run Cruise. I can't for the life of me see that ever working out. I, for one, have dropped the Geese for now.

This is my current list:
LANDS [18]:
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

CREATURES [12]:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

INSTANTS [24]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

SORCERIES [8]:
4 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise

SIDEBOARD [15]:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hydroblast
1 Bitterblossom
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

-----------------------------------

I still need to test this out. We still have 8 one drops and Goyf still tops our curve. (in my case, the 4th Goyf is a TNN, because I don't have the 4th Goyf yet)
Another possibility would be is what RUG Delver is doing right now:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Young Pyromancer

Though I feel that might make the curve a bit too high.

[sea]

I really feel that if you're gonna run with the Goose, you can't run Cruise. I can't for the life of me see that ever working out. I, for one, have dropped the Geese for now.


this is totally a false dilemma. i went 6-2 at scg oakland with a deck maining 3 goose and 2 cruise. i urge you to test them in the same deck. i dont think they ever interfered with eachother to my detriment in all of the 8 rounds, and its happened like once or twice in testing.

i think this is for a few reasons:

(1) cruise gives you 4 cards which will likely end up in youre graveyard. thats over halfway to threshold, and if you have any cards in hand, its pretty easy to top off your yard.

(2) although legacy aggro decks cannot play any cards above 2-3 mana, they dont tend to finish games that quickly. a lot of times when you cruise, youre going to have 10+ cards in your yard already. i had multiple games in oakland (some even in aggro v. aggro matches) where i went through over half my deck.

[Tom]

My testing has actually confirmed your points, Sea.

As my main deck is not set in stone yet, I would be also very interested in your list. Thank you!

[DemolitionColorScheme]

this is totally a false dilemma. i went 6-2 at scg oakland with a deck maining 3 goose and 2 cruise. i urge you to test them in the same deck. i dont think they ever interfered with eachother to my detriment in all of the 8 rounds, and its happened like once or twice in testing.

i think this is for a few reasons:

(1) cruise gives you 4 cards which will likely end up in youre graveyard. thats over halfway to threshold, and if you have any cards in hand, its pretty easy to top off your yard.

(2) although legacy aggro decks cannot play any cards above 2-3 mana, they dont tend to finish games that quickly. a lot of times when you cruise, youre going to have 10+ cards in your yard already. i had multiple games in oakland (some even in aggro v. aggro matches) where i went through over half my deck.
I could maybe get behind 3/4 Goose and 2 Cruise, but running 4 Cruises would seem really awkward to me. However, I'm willing to test it.
I'm curious to see your list then as well.

[blablub]

I will test a 2 Cruise,3 Mongeese build,too....maybe next week ;)

the idea of Price of Progress came up when i was playin the U/R thresh Version from the Eternal Weekend last Year. In Some MatchUps the Card is bonkers. if you have it in your hand, just change the gameplan to go for a long game and if they tap out Price of Progress, GG, I've won against DeathBlade when he resolved a hardcast Batterskull, PoP for 10, gg

It fits really good in the more controlish role, where you want the game to go a bit longer,

i think its not a problem with your own manabase, because you want to operate on 2 mana anyways

[Grizzlybeer]

I ended up 10-5 at GPNJ with 4-Color Delver using the following list:

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fire/Ice

Lands:
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafidgger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Notion Theif

Day 1:
U/R Delver 2-0 win
MUD 2-1 win
Jeskai Stoneblade 2-1 win
Sneak and Show 2-1 win
Jeskai Delver 2-0 win
Elves 1-2 loss (Complete misplay cost me game 3)
RUG Delver 2-1 win
U/G Infect 2-0 win
Turbo Depths 0-2 Loss

Day 2
Death and Taxes 0-2 loss
BUG Delver 2-1 win
BUG Delver 2-1 win
Sneak and Show 1-2 loss
Sneak and Show 1-2 loss
Jeskai Stoneblade 2-1 win

At this point I am looking for ideas to shore up Sneak and Show and Death and Taxes. Sideboard cards I didn't like were Notion thief, Life from the Loam, Sulfur Elemental. Cards from the main I didn't like were really only Daze sometimes.

[blablub]

U can play more Red Blasts in your Board against SneakShow and Dread of Night against D/T, a Darkblast might be worth it, did u never miss the Stifles? of Course you didnt play against Miracles...hmmm

[sawatarix]

@Grizzlybeer: I really like your List, i would rather play a third decay instead of fire/ice (don't see any advantage over decay here). As we mentioned before, Stifle is not a total necessary card in this deck because all we want is to deploy threads on turn 1+2 and then disrupt our opponents with removal and countermagic.
Honestly, we dont have mana left for an eventual Stifle during the early turns, i would rather start the game really proactive and then start to play reacitve.
This all depends on how our opponent interacts with us of course.

But your sideboard looks really...well i dont want to say random but too many 1-offs for my taste.
stoneforge mystic and young pyromancer were one of the most played creatures during the weekend, lets concentrate on them by increasing mass removal (2 golgari charm + 1 forked bolt in the sideboard) and more artifact hate (2 ancient grudge, decay is also fine but i really dont like to decay a germ token)

[Grizzlybeer]

@Grizzlybeer: I really like your List, i would rather play a third decay instead of fire/ice (don't see any advantage over decay here). As we mentioned before, Stifle is not a total necessary card in this deck because all we want is to deploy threads on turn 1+2 and then disrupt our opponents with removal and countermagic.
Honestly, we dont have mana left for an eventual Stifle during the early turns, i would rather start the game really proactive and then start to play reacitve.
This all depends on how our opponent interacts with us of course.

But your sideboard looks really...well i dont want to say random but too many 1-offs for my taste.
stoneforge mystic and young pyromancer were one of the most played creatures during the weekend, lets concentrate on them by increasing mass removal (2 golgari charm + 1 forked bolt in the sideboard) and more artifact hate (2 ancient grudge, decay is also fine but i really dont like to decay a germ token)

Between 4 bolts, 2 decay , 1 fire main and another decay , 2 charm, 1 grudge, 1 null rod in the board I didn't lose a single match to stone forge/pyro decks.

I do like the idea of dread of night to help with dnt. As for SnT the problem is I have no way of stopping the combo if they resolve defense grid. So I lost one game fighting over it. I was thinking of adding either 2 thoughtseize or 2 diabolic edict. I plan on testing both.

[sawatarix]

Against Sneak Show i would board as following (with your list):

+1 ancient gruedge
+1 hydroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 FLusterstorm
+1 Vendillion Clique
+1 Notion Thief

-1 True Name Nemesis
-1 Tarmogoyf
-4 Lightning Bolt

what about increasing the number of countermagic in your sideboard, at least +2 pyroblast because its just too good against most of the field.
When i first played this deck back after grand prix strassbourg i played 3 thoughtseize to combat ANT and it worked out. we have to choose either flusterstorm or thoughtseize for our sideboard i guess.

[Grizzlybeer]

Against Sneak Show i would board as following (with your list):

+1 ancient gruedge
+1 hydroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 FLusterstorm
+1 Vendillion Clique
+1 Notion Thief

-1 True Name Nemesis
-1 Tarmogoyf
-4 Lightning Bolt

what about increasing the number of countermagic in your sideboard, at least +2 pyroblast because its just too good against most of the field.
When i first played this deck back after grand prix strassbourg i played 3 thoughtseize to combat ANT and it worked out. we have to choose either flusterstorm or thoughtseize for our sideboard i guess.

I actually brought in 2 Golgari charm to hit sneak attack/blood moon as well.

[FoolofaTook]

Why not simplify the list a bit to get it out of it's own way early on?

I was looking at a RUG Canadian replacement with Nimble Mongoose giving way to Deathrite Shaman and it occurred to me that if you only run black for Deathrite Shaman the list is nearly as stream-lined as RUG Canadian. It's Abrupt Decay's double non-blue casting cost that causes problems, particularly against other lists that are looking to deny mana early on.

How about:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt/Pyroblast

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

[Grizzlybeer]

Why not simplify the list a bit to get it out of it's own way early on?

I was looking at a RUG Canadian replacement with Nimble Mongoose giving way to Deathrite Shaman and it occurred to me that if you only run black for Deathrite Shaman the list is nearly as stream-lined as RUG Canadian. It's Abrupt Decay's double non-blue casting cost that causes problems, particularly against other lists that are looking to deny mana early on.

How about:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt/Pyroblast

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Your mana base is the same regardless, so why not run decay? Gives you answers counterbalance, jitte, goyf.

[FoolofaTook]

Your mana base is the same regardless, so why not run decay? Gives you answers counterbalance, jitte, goyf.

It was just a suggestion based on how the list looked. One card stands out as clunky given everything else the list is trying to do. Deathrite Shaman is not clunky because it lands for either green or black and it doesn't constrain the fetch choices as much as Abrupt Decay does. Forked Bolt is not clunky because it deals with all the early threats that might arise and it can also go to the face as a finisher if it's drawn later on.

Abrupt Decay is the only spell in the list that makes you want to keep two lands untapped during the opponent's turn. It's the only spell that uses more than a single splash color in the casting cost. It's the only spell in the list where an early opposing Wasteland can keep you from casting it until it is irrelevant. Goyf can occasionally be problematic in this regard but it doesn't constrain the fetch choices as much as decay does.

Maybe Abrupt Decay in the sideboard for when you know it is required? So that when you need the 1cc removal game 1 it's there and when you need the utility of taking out something like Counterbalance or Goyf in game 2 and on you can put it in?

[sawatarix]

Absolutely, back in January this year i replaced abrupt decay with 2 Dismember because of both colour requirement and casting cost in general (1 instead of 2)

worked out for me but not having the luxury to destroy permanents like Jitte,Counterbalance and Aether Vial could also bite your ass.
In the current metagame without that many wastelands i would prefer abrupt decay for sure.
But finally its up to you.

[FoolofaTook]

Absolutely, back in January this year i replaced abrupt decay with 2 Dismember because of both colour requirement and casting cost in general (1 instead of 2)

worked out for me but not having the luxury to destroy permanents like Jitte,Counterbalance and Aether Vial could also bite your ass.
In the current metagame without that many wastelands i would prefer abrupt decay for sure.
But finally its up to you.

So the question is: how different is bUrg Tempo than RUG Canadian? Is the disruption enough less that you can't just play past the opponent's threats and disruption the way that RUG Canadian does?

I see a 3 card difference basically. RUG goes 18 lands and bUrg goes 19, so that's one less disruption piece, and then the other 2 pieces are basically Fire//Ice or Forked Bolt in RUG vs the 2 Abrupt Decay in bUrg.

My experience with BUG Delver and RUG Canadian tells me that 2cc vs 1cc on removal is a pretty big difference early on. It's a DRS or Mom that lives on the other side for an extra turn and causes problems down the road. It's an Elf that survives long enough to be joined by several others until the hit parade shows up.

In this meta is bUrg Tempo actually gaining much by waiting an extra turn to remove in return for the ability to remove more obnoxious stuff down the road?

I guess the ultimate question is whether or not bUrg can disrupt fast enough to go on the RUG plan or whether it's going to be forced into more of a mid-range plan too often to make that work?

[Sasan]

Hey folks,
I am back and wanted to say sorry that I have not updated the primer for months.

One big reason is that I do not have any ideas to push bUrg into a deck to beat. I do not believe bUrg to be one of the best decks in the meta right now.

That is why I will handle the primer over to those who are willing to come up with an innovation.

Is there any one who wants to have the primer and update it and take care of this thread?

Please PM me.

[blablub]

Hey,
As u mentioned you have contact to the developers of this deck, do you have new test lists of the group of german players around? maybe we can work with their new ideas

[Sasan]

Hey,
As u mentioned you have contact to the developers of this deck, do you have new test lists of the group of german players around? maybe we can work with their new ideas

I will ask Carsten Linden if he still Plays bUrg.

[Tormod]

I haven't been on burg for quite some months.
My last build more of a BUG splash red for bolt.

If I were approach burg right now, I would be looking at it as grixis deck splashing green for DRS and abrupt decay. I believe the mix of Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy would be a great reason to play this burg. A reference to Eric Rills Spy Kids list with spymaster could play along nicely with treasure cruise.

[Shamaatae]

I really enjoy playing the "spy Kids" version. It fit my play style and I am a bit tired of RUG & Goyf. I do not see RIP coming in for DRS or TC. I can see TC being fought with more versatile options such as REB and pierce.

Regarding Cabal therapy, I like the card as an option to fight anoying sideboard option for which our sideboard do not offer enough options, especially game 3 on the draw with the probe in the deck. My sideboard still require alot of work.

I am interested to hear more feedback about your build. I personnaly looking to play 2 TC in place of Edric and Fire/Ice.


I'm playing This. Cut Edric a long time ago and fire/ice too. Also now i cut 1 Ponder for the 3 Cruises. Maybe I should cut probe/stifle instead? But stifle just seems to go soo good with wastelands, and you can always pitch to fow/brainstorm the unnecessary ones away. Late/midgame stifle is not good against other delverdecks.

Im thinking of moving away from Pyromancer/probe just because i think UR does that so much better. But what to run instead? Goyf doesnt really fit me, Bob is terrible, snapcaster is more a control-creature i think, TNN is better with blade. Guess Im stuck with pyro atm.

Cabal in the sideboard maybe not too impressive with all the Cruises running around? Also my local meta is comboless.

[Sasan]

As I promised, I asked Carsten.

Carsten Linden does not play bUrg anymore. Sorry.

[JosephK]

A fellow player played this list with some results :

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Stifle
3 Volcanic Island
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Chain Lightning
1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Electrickery
SB: 2 Destructive Revelry

Our metagame is heavy in Chalice/Trini strats.

[Lucipher2k]

At the time I'm also trying two different kinds of lists, one with Pyromancer and one with Mongoose/Stifle. I'm still not sure which one would be better in the current meta, but first I'll share my lists:

bUrg Mancer

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
2x Treasure Cruise
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Spell Pierce
2x Cabal Therapy

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
2x Wasteland

Without Stifle in this list and that many basics in the current meta I don't see any good reason to run a full playset of Wastelands, so I'd cut them down to two for some utility lands I play against.
The two Therapies are currently testing slots and at the time I'm ok with them, but if anybody of you people got some good alternatives/other choices for me feel free to write it down.

Now on to the second list:

bUrg Goose

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce

4x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

This is more a RUGish build which I personally like a lot. There is the whole Stifle/Wasteland/Daze Plan in it, but without the Treasure Cruise Draw and Pyromancer Tokens.
I'm still not quite sure, if the RUG Plan is still viable with that many Delver Lists running around.

That's it for now, feel free to give me some advices.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is more a RUGish build which I personally like a lot. There is the whole Stifle/Wasteland/Daze Plan in it, but without the Treasure Cruise Draw and Pyromancer Tokens.
I'm still not quite sure, if the RUG Plan is still viable with that many Delver Lists running around.

That's it for now, feel free to give me some advices.
Why no love for some bigger dudes than what you got. With your own DRS and many more of them (plus some delve spells in every list), Goyf is awful, of course, but wouldn't a single TNN or VClique be a viable turn2 play?
Cause it looks like you have troubles sealing the games, as Delver and DRS die to anything and NM might be kept small for quite some time with opposing Deathrites.
Other than that I like it.

[Lemnear]

Why no love for some bigger dudes than what you got. With your own DRS and many more of them (plus some delve spells in every list), Goyf is awful, of course, but wouldn't a single TNN or VClique be a viable turn2 play?
Cause it looks like you have troubles sealing the games, as Delver and DRS die to anything and NM might be kept small for quite some time with opposing Deathrites.
Other than that I like it.

Considering that with DRS you can play the "who has the first TNN" race pretty well and can support TC w/o running Goyf, this is a pretty logic step.

[Lucipher2k]

Why no love for some bigger dudes than what you got. With your own DRS and many more of them (plus some delve spells in every list), Goyf is awful, of course, but wouldn't a single TNN or VClique be a viable turn2 play?
Cause it looks like you have troubles sealing the games, as Delver and DRS die to anything and NM might be kept small for quite some time with opposing Deathrites.
Other than that I like it.

Of course, I think that I've didn't think that much about mid-/lategame. TNN as 2 of would be nice.
I'm gonna test the following:

-2 Spell Pierce / Spell Snare
+2 TNN

[sawatarix]

That would be my list from GP Paris this year but honestly,no cruise no success my friend.

[Lucipher2k]

That would be my list from GP Paris this year but honestly,no cruise no success my friend.

That's why I'm testing both versions of it. But I'm not confident about the Pyromancer/ Cruise with all the hate against it.

[mextremartini]

That's why I'm testing both versions of it. But I'm not confident about the Pyromancer/ Cruise with all the hate against it.

Hmm, I've been successful with a grixis approach and a different set of creatures. The sideboard needs improvement.

19lands: 8 fetch , 4 wasteland , 3 volcanic , 3 underground sea , 1 tropical
11creatures: 4 delver , 4 shaman , 3 TNN
12cantrips: 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 4 cruise
6burn: 4 bolt, 2 forked bolt
12counter: 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 4 stifle

SIDE: In development...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hmm, I've been successful with a grixis approach and a different set of creatures. The sideboard needs improvement.

19lands: 8 fetch , 4 wasteland , 3 volcanic , 3 underground sea , 1 tropical
11creatures: 4 delver , 4 shaman , 3 TNN
12cantrips: 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 4 cruise
6burn: 4 bolt, 2 forked bolt
12counter: 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 4 stifle

SIDE: In development...

I dislike the missing Decay.

[Lucipher2k]

I dislike the missing Decay.

Me too. At least two Decay should be in your deck to fight against some cards like Counterbalance or even to remove an opposing Goyf (Two Bolts are sometimes otherwise necessary).

[deadlock]

I am currently testing the following build and wouldnt change a thing except maybe the land configuration.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs

The list tries to maximize the usage of Gitaxian Probe, while playing creatures which can potenially create an advantage. Goyf is okay for bug, but good enough for burg, which can play Young Pyromancer. Bolt + Decay may be the strongest removal combination there is and should be played over conditional counters. Therapy is much stronger, as it especially crushes SFM and many combo decks. Both YP and TNN are good at protecting Plainswalker, which can be added from the board (currently I have another Liliana and a Dack Fayden + Notion Thief ;D, but a Jace might be worthwhile too).

[Contract Killer]

I just found this list a little while ago that somebody did well with and after testing it's pretty sweet.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8747&d=249975&f=LE

Creature 12
4 delver
4 deathrite
4 goyf

instants/sorceries 30
3 force
4 daze
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 treasure cruise
4 lightning bolt
3 abrupt decay

Lands 19
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
3 tropical
3 tarn
2 volcanic
2 underground sea
1 badlands

Sideboard
1 decay
1 force
3 pyroblast
2 hydroblast
2 spell pierce
1 fire covenant
1 pithing needle
1 nihil spell bomb
1 forked bolt
2 grudge

That's the original list, but I changed a few things. First I went down to 18 lands and shaved the badlands the 8th land isn't really necessary and it doesn't support daze. I added a 4th force because playing in less just seems bad. I put cruise down to 3 because there were times when it just clogged up early hands and it isn't at it's brightest in this list.

The tweaks I made the mainboard did open up a few sideboard slots. I also cut some cards more for personal tastes than anything. I get spell bomb aside from being graveyard hate might have some interaction with delver I would still rather have a cage. Not having an electrickery seemed really bad because covenant seems horrible against UR delver if they get lots of tokens going.

Hydroblast is more of a card that I haven't even bothered testing because despite UR delver being the big boy on the block it seems too narrow. I can see the value of it hitting 8/12 threats + their pyroblasts post board among other things. Overall I would just rather have more versatile board cards so I went with flusterstorm in place of hydroblast. Well versatile might not be the correct word flusterstorm just hits different decks, but isn't as good as hydroblast against ur delver.

Creature 12
4 delver
4 deathrite
4 goyf

instants/sorceries 30
4 force
4 daze
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 treasure cruise
4 lightning bolt
3 abrupt decay

Lands 18
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
3 tropical
3 tarn
2 volcanic
2 underground sea

Sideboard
2 grafdigger's cage
1 vendilion clique
2 flusterstorm
3 pyroblast
1 fire covenant
1 electrickery
2 ancient grudge
2 spell pierce
1 abrupt decay
I'll probably switch out the 2 pierces and decay out of the board for different hate just not sure what yet. They're good, but a bit too redundant of the maindeck for my tastes. Maybe I'll try out the hydroblasts after all. What do you guys think?

[Lemnear]

If Goyf + TC was playable we wouldn't have witnessed Team America and RUG Delver dying. It hurts me to see peeps trying to mimic UR Delvers gameplan but with two additional, splashed colors for reactive cards + DRS.

[sawatarix]

This list is maybe close to the best thing you can do with 4 colour delver right now.
The spells are basically from RUG Delver (+ clunky decays) and the creatures go more hand in hand with cruise than nimble mongoose do ;D

fire covenant is a painful card at the moment, no one wants to spend so many life points for a massremoval. Toxic deluge is already a pain but fire covenant has seen better times.
izzet staticaster on the other hand is amazing: clearing all YP tokens immediately or killing the pyrodude itself makes this creature a solid choice as a 1 off in the sideboard.

[KobeBryan]

I just found this list a little while ago that somebody did well with and after testing it's pretty sweet.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8747&d=249975&f=LE

Creature 12
4 delver
4 deathrite
4 goyf

instants/sorceries 30
3 force
4 daze
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 treasure cruise
4 lightning bolt
3 abrupt decay

Lands 19
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
3 tropical
3 tarn
2 volcanic
2 underground sea
1 badlands

Sideboard
1 decay
1 force
3 pyroblast
2 hydroblast
2 spell pierce
1 fire covenant
1 pithing needle
1 nihil spell bomb
1 forked bolt
2 grudge

That's the original list, but I changed a few things. First I went down to 18 lands and shaved the badlands the 8th land isn't really necessary and it doesn't support daze. I added a 4th force because playing in less just seems bad. I put cruise down to 3 because there were times when it just clogged up early hands and it isn't at it's brightest in this list.

The tweaks I made the mainboard did open up a few sideboard slots. I also cut some cards more for personal tastes than anything. I get spell bomb aside from being graveyard hate might have some interaction with delver I would still rather have a cage. Not having an electrickery seemed really bad because covenant seems horrible against UR delver if they get lots of tokens going.

Hydroblast is more of a card that I haven't even bothered testing because despite UR delver being the big boy on the block it seems too narrow. I can see the value of it hitting 8/12 threats + their pyroblasts post board among other things. Overall I would just rather have more versatile board cards so I went with flusterstorm in place of hydroblast. Well versatile might not be the correct word flusterstorm just hits different decks, but isn't as good as hydroblast against ur delver.

Creature 12
4 delver
4 deathrite
4 goyf

instants/sorceries 30
4 force
4 daze
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 treasure cruise
4 lightning bolt
3 abrupt decay

Lands 18
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
3 tropical
3 tarn
2 volcanic
2 underground sea

Sideboard
2 grafdigger's cage
1 vendilion clique
2 flusterstorm
3 pyroblast
1 fire covenant
1 electrickery
2 ancient grudge
2 spell pierce
1 abrupt decay
I'll probably switch out the 2 pierces and decay out of the board for different hate just not sure what yet. They're good, but a bit too redundant of the maindeck for my tastes. Maybe I'll try out the hydroblasts after all. What do you guys think?

I really like this list.

I think I would take out the sideboard

1. abrupt decay for forked bolt
2. 2 ancient grudge for 2 destructive relevry
3. fire covenant for forked bolt

[Contract Killer]

If Goyf + TC was playable we wouldn't have witnessed Team America and RUG Delver dying. It hurts me to see peeps trying to mimic UR Delvers gameplan but with two additional, splashed colors for reactive cards + DRS.

Goyf is no issue with Cruise. Somewhere around 99% of the time your opponent will have an instant + land in their grave so goyf stays a 3/4. At most there might not be a creature in their yard, but if we can always pay 1 extra mana and keep ours. Or better yet just not exile our creature and exile another card instead lol


This list is maybe close to the best thing you can do with 4 colour delver right now.
The spells are basically from RUG Delver (+ clunky decays) and the creatures go more hand in hand with cruise than nimble mongoose do ;D

fire covenant is a painful card at the moment, no one wants to spend so many life points for a massremoval. Toxic deluge is already a pain but fire covenant has seen better times.
izzet staticaster on the other hand is amazing: clearing all YP tokens immediately or killing the pyrodude itself makes this creature a solid choice as a 1 off in the sideboard.

Yeah though I think doing anything outside of the rug spells just dilutes the deck if you want to stay tempo. If you want to go a bit more long game or get cute with cabal therapy + pyromancer than you should just go for grixis delver right?


I really like this list.

I think I would take out the sideboard

1. abrupt decay for forked bolt
2. 2 ancient grudge for 2 destructive relevry
3. fire covenant for forked bolt

A forked bolt in the board might be right. I just put ancient grudge because decay hits most if not all the enchantments we care about. Relevry does do some extra damage, but also stretches a less than ideal mana base more than I would like it to. I'm thinking covenant might just go to a second electrickery like sawatrix said paying extra life for massremoval is just bad right now.

[Lemnear]

Goyf is no issue with Cruise. Somewhere around 99% of the time your opponent will have an instant + land in their grave so goyf stays a 3/4. At most there might not be a creature in their yard, but if we can always pay 1 extra mana and keep ours. Or better yet just not exile our creature and exile another card instead lol.

Because bUrg is the only deck in the format running Treasure Cruise ... ob wait!

[Contract Killer]

Because bUrg is the only deck in the format running Treasure Cruise ... ob wait!

Bug delver or Team America can run Cruise + Goyf. I'll admit UR delver is the "best" cruise deck out there. Other decks can still benefit from Cruise/Dig as well. No more than 3 weeks ago Gerry Thompson handedly beat me with his Shardless BUG build that had I think 2 or 3 Digs in it.

The only reason why there has been somewhat of a decline in RUG Delver and BUG delver is because UR delver is the better aggro deck. Against any tempo/aggro deck UR delver is favored. Combo or midrange like Stoneblade or miracles they're favored against UR delver.

[laserstone]

What happens to burg as an archetype now that cruise is gone? Do we just gravitate away from YPyro and more towards "bug with bolts?"

[phazonmutant]

I played BURG to the top 4 of a 48-person local tournament for duals. The list was solid, fairly happy with it overall. I'm still frustrated at my loss in the semis, as I'll talk about in a bit.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sylvan Library
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Forked Bolt
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Submerge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sulfuric Vortex

The maindeck felt very solid. Mongoose and Goyf did a lot of work, and I wonder if RUG isn't just better because it plays 4 of each? Maybe Deathrite is more subtly good. It certainly is necessary to shore up the crazy manabase. My mana did manage to work as long as I had lands that could cast my spells. The sideboard was solid, but I wonder if it has too much combo hate. Submerge was a little too narrow. I might like another Forked Bolt.

R1 - WB Stax 2-0 (David Bauman). I Forced and Dazed the spells that mattered, and got Delvers early and often.
R2 - Sneak and Show 2-0 (Andrew Park). He never resolved a relevant spell this match. I manascrewed him hard with Stifle and Wasteland.
R3 - Jeskai Ascendancy Combo 2-0 (Solomon Burgess). Game 1 was very grindy, very close. I won with all of my mana producing lands in play to play Delver with hard-cast Force backup. Game 2 I drew the right spells at the right time. Golgari Charm got to kill an Ascendancy.
R4 - ANT 2-0 (David McDarby). He was playing Prosak's deck, so spent way too long cantripping around, allowing me to develop my mana and draw cards of Sylvan Library both games.
R5 - ID
R6 - ID
Quarters - Merfolk 2-0 (Johnathan Gingrich). I Pierced Vial game 1, then dropped a Goyf, putting him on the back foot from turn 2. Game 2 he was ahead early when he Diverted an Abrupt Decay to my Goyf with Daze backup, but I held on with a Decay on his Vial then some removal for his lords.
Semis - BURg Delver / Pyromancer 0-2 (Glenn Jones). Kind of a frustrating loss because after discussing it with him afterwards, I think I made the correct plays, but he also played tight and drew better.

Going into the match, all I knew was he had Wasteland, Pyromancer, and Deathrite in his deck. Game 1 on the play, my hand was Delver, Wasteland, Stifle, Bolt, Daze, Scalding Tarn, Scalding Tarn. Super solid hand. I led on Delver, he Wasted my land. Very aggressive. I drew a Ponder, flipping Delver, played a Tarn, and passed. He played a fetch and passed. I drew another cantrip, played Wasteland and passed. He played a fetch, cracked it. I cracked mine in response. He responded with a fetch for Sea and Stifle, I responded by Wasting his Sea, and then he resolved his first fetch and Bolted my Delver. I didn't draw lands for 4 turns and he won easily. Was there some other sequence I could have taken to play around his Stifle (that I didn't know he even had in his deck)?
Game 2 I had a decent opener, but drew reactive spells after he had gotten creatures into play, and didn't draw cantrips until too late.

Overall the deck felt great. I didn't drop a game before the Semis. I won a Savannah and a Taiga, so I guess that's cool. I'd play the same maindeck with the sideboard tweaks I mentioned above.

[sdematt]

Too bad you didn't get Blood Mooned into a barrel ;)

-Matt

[lordofthepit]

Going into the match, all I knew was he had Wasteland, Pyromancer, and Deathrite in his deck. Game 1 on the play, my hand was Delver, Wasteland, Stifle, Bolt, Daze, Scalding Tarn, Scalding Tarn. Super solid hand. I led on Delver, he Wasted my land. Very aggressive. I drew a Ponder, flipping Delver, played a Tarn, and passed. He played a fetch and passed. I drew another cantrip, played Wasteland and passed. He played a fetch, cracked it. I cracked mine in response. He responded with a fetch for Sea and Stifle, I responded by Wasting his Sea, and then he resolved his first fetch and Bolted my Delver. I didn't draw lands for 4 turns and he won easily. Was there some other sequence I could have taken to play around his Stifle (that I didn't know he even had in his deck)?

If you really want to play around Stifle, after he cracks his fetchland, you respond by activating Wasteland on his uncracked fetch. This gives you a window to resolve your own fetchland and turn on your Stifle.

You would be 2-for-1'ing yourself, which is better than almost certainly losing on the spot due to tempo loss, but I agree I wouldn't make that play unless I knew for sure he were running Stifle and had a very high likelihood of having it in his hand at the moment.

[alphastryk]

Game 1 on the play, my hand was Delver, Wasteland, Stifle, Bolt, Daze, Scalding Tarn, Scalding Tarn. Super solid hand. I led on Delver, he Wasted my land. Very aggressive. I drew a Ponder, flipping Delver, played a Tarn, and passed. He played a fetch and passed. I drew another cantrip, played Wasteland and passed. He played a fetch, cracked it. I cracked mine in response. He responded with a fetch for Sea and Stifle, I responded by Wasting his Sea, and then he resolved his first fetch and Bolted my Delver. I didn't draw lands for 4 turns and he won easily. Was there some other sequence I could have taken to play around his Stifle (that I didn't know he even had in his deck)?

The only thing I can think is that if he wastes you that aggressively you have to put him on more mana denial - either another Wasteland or a Stifle. In theory you could fetch right away after he does that, but if he has a second Wasteland that's bad - but you can't really do anything about it anyways. It might be worth fetching right away on your turn to play around the potential Stifle.

[phazonmutant]

The only thing I can think is that if he wastes you that aggressively you have to put him on more mana denial - either another Wasteland or a Stifle. In theory you could fetch right away after he does that, but if he has a second Wasteland that's bad - but you can't really do anything about it anyways. It might be worth fetching right away on your turn to play around the potential Stifle.

That's true. If he has a Wasteland, then I can Stifle it and he wastes another turn (heh). There was always Daze to pick up the land too. One of the problems with this deck, though, is the manabase is awkward enough that you want to hold your fetches until you know what land you need.

One line I came up with this morning - since he has two fetches, I can assume that I'll be able to get one of them with my Stifle. So I let his fetch resolve, then Waste his land after he Bolts Delver. If he cracks his fetch to Stifle, I Stifle his fetch and he's left with no permanents. Otherwise we're both in a holding pattern for more lands. The ceiling on this line is the same, and the floor is better. Seems like it's strictly better.

[wcm8]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79211

Any thoughts on this list?

I'm not so keen on Badlands, I think if you really want to resort to a non-blue Dual you'd probably be better of with Bayou, or maybe Taiga. I also am unsure about some of the sideboard choices here, e.g. the single Submerge, Nihil Spellbomb... but overall I could see tempo decks converging into something closely resembling this list. I did a little bit of testing with this list, and the 2 DTT seemed pretty useful.

[alphastryk]

That's true. If he has a Wasteland, then I can Stifle it and he wastes another turn (heh). There was always Daze to pick up the land too. One of the problems with this deck, though, is the manabase is awkward enough that you want to hold your fetches until you know what land you need.

One line I came up with this morning - since he has two fetches, I can assume that I'll be able to get one of them with my Stifle. So I let his fetch resolve, then Waste his land after he Bolts Delver. If he cracks his fetch to Stifle, I Stifle his fetch and he's left with no permanents. Otherwise we're both in a holding pattern for more lands. The ceiling on this line is the same, and the floor is better. Seems like it's strictly better.

Yeah, that seems like a better way to handle it. It's clearly been too long since I've played Stifle myself :)