[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[JosephK]

Tasigur could bring some fresh air to the deck and relieve the manabase : on a grixis splash G basis, one could come up with :

1 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [C13] True-Name Nemesis
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [FRF] Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
1 [KTK] Murderous Cut
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [DKA] Thought Scour
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CNS] Stifle
1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
4 [M12] Ponder
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [RTR] Golgari Charm
SB: 1 [ISD] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
SB: 1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will

It has the same idea as the first Burg ever created : every threat (almost) costs 1 for a very controllish and reactive tempo deck. Tasigur instead of mongoose for a better late game vs Goyf and Decay (vs BUG). Bitterblossom for MUs with Karakas (and Miracle obv). It's a first draft but you can give it a try.

[nitewolf9]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79211

Any thoughts on this list?

I'm not so keen on Badlands, I think if you really want to resort to a non-blue Dual you'd probably be better of with Bayou, or maybe Taiga. I also am unsure about some of the sideboard choices here, e.g. the single Submerge, Nihil Spellbomb... but overall I could see tempo decks converging into something closely resembling this list. I did a little bit of testing with this list, and the 2 DTT seemed pretty useful.

The list was designed so that you can play all your spells off of 2 lands, tropical island and badlands, if needs be. All your threats deploy off of trop, so it is usually the first land fetched, and also why trop is a 3 of. Badlands also helps you against combo decks with fetch sequencing since casting Thoughtseize and Pyroblast are more important early and can lead to awkward hands if it wasn't in the deck. My GP list had a taiga and a badlands with 2 trops, but having stifle over cruise means having more blue early is important.

Submerge was decided on because I wanted another card vs elves and RUG, but is probably just better as decay #4 or even terminate, as there are guys that can't get decayed and it's nice to just have a "kill anything" spell. Pulse is also an option, albeit and expensive one. Spellbomb is simply another card to bring in vs RUG as I expected more mongoose, and is very good to hit off of a dig vs dredge or lands, but I can see trying to fit 1 or 2 surgical extractions in there instead.

[btm10]

I've gotten a little bored with BUG Delver and am thinking of switching decks. I might just play BUG Control, but this bUrg has also been on my radar. To be direct - why should I play bUrg over BUG? From the look of it I get worse Miracles, D&T, and combo matchups in exchange for a better Elves matchup. Am I totally off base in thinking like this?

[Lucipher2k]

Hey there!

At the time I'm trying some different stuff in this deck, so I might share my list first.

MB:

4x Delver if Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x True Name Nemesis / 2x Tasigur, the golden Fang

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flex Slot ---> I try different things here and I'm quite not sure if that should be just a 1-off or maybe a 3rd Decay/Pierce

7x Fetch
2x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Taiga
4x Wasteland

SB:

3x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x Golgari Charm / 2x Marsh Casualties
2x Submerge
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Disfigure

That's for the list. The sideboard is just thrown together, so it's not finished yet and needs a little more tuning if anybody of you got an idea.
The Meta where I play consists of something like this: Miracles, Death and Taxes, UWr Variants, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Delver (RUG, BUG), Storm, Elves, Shardless, Infect and some other random decks.
I don't really know if I got enough/the right in my board against all/the most of the decks.

[Totenstille]

Hi Folks,
This is my First Post To the burg thread.
I am a German Guy and my english is Not that good
Sry for that.

I Play burg now for a Few weeks and i am very happy with it.
Lebt me Start with my List and some explanations To the Card choices.

4 wastelands
7 fetch
3 Underground seas
2 Tropical Island
1 volcanic
1 Taiga

4 delver
1 tnn
3 Goyf
3 deathrite
2 tasigur

4 Brainstorm
3 ponder
4 Lightning bolts
4 Stifle
1 spell Pierce
2 spell snare
4 daze
3 Force
2 Decay
1 Life from the loam ( flex. Slot)
1 izzet charm

Sideboard :
1 zuran Orb
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
1 Dread of Night
1 vendilion Clique
2 ancient grudge
2 curgical extractions
2 spell Pierce
2 pyroblast
1 Force of will

13 creatures i feel its the right number.
29 Spells is the Minimum To flip delver efficintly.
Tasigur is in my Testing Phase right now i cuttet mongoose
For him. I feel mongoose + tasigur isnt a good Match.
I feel thresholde is Not That Easy To resch and delve kills it.
The loam is in my maindeck cus i Sideboard it in quiet often
And can go down To 18 Land with it.
It wins some Games in combination with wasteland.
I think tarmogoyf is so efficient that we cant refuse To Play him.

Feel free To ASK or Post something that we can discuss

[SecludedGlenn]

One line I came up with this morning - since he has two fetches, I can assume that I'll be able to get one of them with my Stifle. So I let his fetch resolve, then Waste his land after he Bolts Delver. If he cracks his fetch to Stifle, I Stifle his fetch and he's left with no permanents. Otherwise we're both in a holding pattern for more lands. The ceiling on this line is the same, and the floor is better. Seems like it's strictly better.

This line gets you completely blown out by Daze (he counters your Stifle and saves his land from your Wasteland). In general, you should try to avoid casting spells in response to Wasteland activations against tempo decks for this reason.

[Plague Sliver]

The list was designed so that you can play all your spells off of 2 lands, tropical island and badlands, if needs be. All your threats deploy off of trop, so it is usually the first land fetched, and also why trop is a 3 of. Badlands also helps you against combo decks with fetch sequencing since casting Thoughtseize and Pyroblast are more important early and can lead to awkward hands if it wasn't in the deck. My GP list had a taiga and a badlands with 2 trops, but having stifle over cruise means having more blue early is important.

Submerge was decided on because I wanted another card vs elves and RUG, but is probably just better as decay #4 or even terminate, as there are guys that can't get decayed and it's nice to just have a "kill anything" spell. Pulse is also an option, albeit and expensive one. Spellbomb is simply another card to bring in vs RUG as I expected more mongoose, and is very good to hit off of a dig vs dredge or lands, but I can see trying to fit 1 or 2 surgical extractions in there instead.

Dan! Didn't know you were still rocking Delver in the free world! Sad to see it's not Team America, but it's still a tempo shell.

What decks did you face at the Invitational?

[Lucipher2k]

I don't know if it has been asked before and didn't found any information about that, so I'd like to know of you all what's your experience with Stifle?
Yesterday I've played several games against different kinds of decks (RUG, BUG, TES, ANT, Belcher, Infect, Miracles, etc.) and I'm not really happy with Stifle. I play three main and it was like either I didn't draw a single copy or my opponents knew about it and played around (Probe, Discard).

Is it just me or is it really that Stifle got worse after game 1 where your opponent knows on what you're?
What do you think about it?

[crush]

I play 3 stifles and am quite happy with this configuration. I could see myself go up to 4, but not lower then 3. Many people here reported good results with 0 stifles, so this is surely a viable option.

I guess it all depends how you would like your deck to function. If you play 0 stifles, you enter deep midrange territory - the question is, aren't you better of playing something else then? Also, I think 0 stifles only work as long as your opponents believe you have them in your deck and play around them :)

[Contract Killer]

I've gotten a little bored with BUG Delver and am thinking of switching decks. I might just play BUG Control, but this bUrg has also been on my radar. To be direct - why should I play bUrg over BUG? From the look of it I get worse Miracles, D&T, and combo matchups in exchange for a better Elves matchup. Am I totally off base in thinking like this?

Burg is a bit of a broad deck in terms of what you can play in it. The main advantage to it over bug is that you gain red so not all of your removal is decay, disfigure, and maybe lili. Disfigure is Ok bolt is just more flexible and lili is a bit of mana intensive when it comes to removal. The other nice addition red brings is pyroblast out of the board which of you ask me increases your miracles match up. Combo match ups again I would say get better because you get pyroblast.

The other main addition burg gets is young pyromancer. Personally I think goyf is better but they play completely different so that's not a fair comparison. I'm also not very family with the yp builds maybe someone more experienced could explain that build.

After that it just depends on what form of burg and bug you're comparing. Both can go all in on the tempo plan with geese and stifle or more midrange with tnn/tasigur/lili etc.

[Lucipher2k]

Hey Guys!

I'm gonna prepare myself for a tournament and need a little tuning on my list.

4x Delver of Secrets
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Nimble Mongoose
2x Tarmogoyf

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
3x Spell Pierce
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Divert

4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland


3x Pyroblast
2x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction / 2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Forked Bolt
2x Golgari Charm
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Destructive Revelry
1x ?

I'm expecting RUG, BUG, Storm, Miracles, Infect, Elves, Sneak & Show, Death and Taxes, Blade Variants, UWR, Junk, Maverick. I haven't played for a while on a tournament, so I need some help in building my sideboard and maybe some help on how to board against these decks.

The sideboarding in the opening post in this Thread isn't that helpful anymore I think. :)

[crush]

A BURG list won a 90+ players tournament: http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/20281#287138



--- creatures [13] ---
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

--- instants [21] ---
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time
2 Abrupt Decay

--- sorceries [7] ---
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

--- lands [19] ---
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island

--- sideboard ---
3 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Counterspell
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


A gave the list a quick try and must say I was quite impressed. The list looks really clunky, but played out quite smoothly.

The only thing that bothers me a little is the lack of any Spell Pierces in the main as the list seems quite weak to a top decked Liliana of the Veil.

[FANAttIC]

Hello.
I am a Merfolk player preparing for GP Lille and I wanted to try some games from another angle (and to take my rares on a ride outside binder).

Took this list:
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/20285#287178
Changed one Waste for one basic Island (I like casting my spells against Wasteland decks, it was the only reason I won against Lands).

Played in a tournament today, 4:1 in swiss and lost in top 4. Both losses were to multiple Wastelands and mulls. Nothing else was threatening.
Resolving Deathrite turn one is like playing a game on another level. It was bonkers for me and against me (when opponents had it of course).
Shaman is the best planeswalker in legacy, who cares for Liliana or Jace :cool:

[AfroSmile]

Before I start the discussion, i'll introduce myself because this is my first post on this forum. I'm from Switzerland and I discover BURG Delver in early 2013 from Pdingo another swiss player on this forum. I play the deck a lot (since 2013) because I always have a lot of fun with it. The deck brings me some results like earlier this year in some little tournament like Demons of the alps - act I (http://demonsota.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Demonsota_2015_Act1_Top8_Decklists.pdf) (a +50 players tournament in Switzerland and that's really good for our country). Some matches were filmed (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLy4E_A9EjSKffBp2ZxYrkN7C4IRwGJtTy) and if you have any comment to improve my play, they are welcome. I hope my experience and my future post will help to improve the deck.

This is my actual version of my main deck.



--- Creatures [13] ---
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

--- Instants [24] ---
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Dig Through Time

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

--- Sorceries [4] ---
4 Ponder

--- lands [19] ---
4 Wasteland

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

I feel very comfortable with this decklist but I think with the results of the Prague Eternal 2015, i'll consider of adding a third copy of Dig Through Time.

I wanted to share that two BURG Delver were in the top 8 of Prague Eternal 2015 (http://www.pragueeternal.com/prague-eternal-previous/pe-2015-1st-121314-june/pe-2015-1st-saturday-legacy.html)! If you want to see some games of the deck, there is some video on twitch (http://www.twitch.tv/pragueeternal/v/6135868).
An article about the tournament from Carster Kotter (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31063_Prague-Eternal-2015.html) presents some strong point of the deck.

What do you think about Snapcaster mage in the deck? How well is he doing? Sometimes i'm considering 1 or 2 copies of Tasigur or Gurmag Angler. What do you think of the two cards. They did well in Grixis Delver, it might be good here too.

I think we have too edit the Primer to add Dig Through Time to the deck.

P.S.: My apologies for my bad english. :-/

[AfroSmile]

Hello.
I am a Merfolk player preparing for GP Lille and I wanted to try some games from another angle (and to take my rares on a ride outside binder).

Took this list:
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/20285#287178
Changed one Waste for one basic Island (I like casting my spells against Wasteland decks, it was the only reason I won against Lands).

Played in a tournament today, 4:1 in swiss and lost in top 4. Both losses were to multiple Wastelands and mulls. Nothing else was threatening.
Resolving Deathrite turn one is like playing a game on another level. It was bonkers for me and against me (when opponents had it of course).
Shaman is the best planeswalker in legacy, who cares for Liliana or Jace :cool:

This is more Grixis Delver with a tropical island for deathrite shaman than BURG Delver. There is no green spell.
You may visit this thread instead http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26388-Grixis-Tempo/page11.

[ironclad8690]

Just went 3-1 in a daily event using Thomas Mar's list from Prague Eternal (2nd place list).

Round 1 Beat Shardless Bug in 3 games (his clock was almost out before end of last game, but delvers got there anyways).

Round 2 Lost to UR Delver who I had two turns to flip delver against in game 1 with him at 3 with a bunch of elementals, game eneded with him at 1 from force and fetching. Game 2 he had a bolt for every shaman I played and then a force for my golgari charm on my board of lethal goyf attacker vs his token army of like 8 tokens.

Round 3 Beat 12 post handily, game 2 he even chaliced on 1 which I couldn't answer all game, but goyf backed up by naturally drawn wastelands got there eventually (daze and force helped against his show and tells too).

Round 4 Beat Omnitell in 3. Lost game 1 after he had a force in hand to counter my force. Game 2 he shows and tell on turn two, I daze, he forces, I force back, he forced again, an I force back after that he has nothing and delver gets there. Game 3 I keep a hand with 2 flusterstorm, 1 force of will, 1 pyroblast, 1 DRS, 1 Snapcaster, 1 Tropical Island. By three turns later I had drawn ponder, pyroblast, and spell pierce, so I had infinite countermagic. Eventually I dropped a Clique after drawing 1 more land, which put his omniscience to the bottom, then won 3 counter wars over 3 consecutive show and tells for the next 3 turns.

Had I played correctly vs the UR player, I could have won, but I was dumb (pyroblasted a git probe for no reason, used a daze when he had a mana up). Looking forward to playing this list more!

[AfroSmile]

Delete this post please (Double post)

[AfroSmile]

Just went 3-1 in a daily event using Thomas Mar's list from Prague Eternal (2nd place list).

Round 1 Beat Shardless Bug in 3 games (his clock was almost out before end of last game, but delvers got there anyways).

Round 2 Lost to UR Delver who I had two turns to flip delver against in game 1 with him at 3 with a bunch of elementals, game eneded with him at 1 from force and fetching. Game 2 he had a bolt for every shaman I played and then a force for my golgari charm on my board of lethal goyf attacker vs his token army of like 8 tokens.

Round 3 Beat 12 post handily, game 2 he even chaliced on 1 which I couldn't answer all game, but goyf backed up by naturally drawn wastelands got there eventually (daze and force helped against his show and tells too).

Round 4 Beat Omnitell in 3. Lost game 1 after he had a force in hand to counter my force. Game 2 he shows and tell on turn two, I daze, he forces, I force back, he forced again, an I force back after that he has nothing and delver gets there. Game 3 I keep a hand with 2 flusterstorm, 1 force of will, 1 pyroblast, 1 DRS, 1 Snapcaster, 1 Tropical Island. By three turns later I had drawn ponder, pyroblast, and spell pierce, so I had infinite countermagic. Eventually I dropped a Clique after drawing 1 more land, which put his omniscience to the bottom, then won 3 counter wars over 3 consecutive show and tells for the next 3 turns.

Had I played correctly vs the UR player, I could have won, but I was dumb (pyroblasted a git probe for no reason, used a daze when he had a mana up). Looking forward to playing this list more!

Congrats for your event. If you did some weird play like this, it's normal you loosed against UR Delver. Try to avoid that and the result will follow. ;-)
Can you tell me how did you feel the snapcaster mage? And the sylvan library? Did you have any problem with the delve spell or it was ok?

Can you be more precise against Shardless BUG, I'm interested in that match up so any comment or advice would be great!

[crush]

I went 5-2 with this deck to a 2nd place in a 8 man round-robin top 8 (league final). I beat Omnitell, BUG Delver, Aggro Loam, ANT and Miracles, losing to Lands and Deathblade.

I used the decklist posted above (danish winner), switching 1 snapcaster for a sylvan library (i was expecting many miracles decks).

The deck felt really solid in this slow, controling meta. The snapcaster was great vs everybody - flashing back 1cc removal and countermagic. Sylvan library was equally ok, winning my miracles match by itself and giving a great boost vs aggro loam. I was quite happy with the split. I also changed the sideboard a little, to be able to play a more tempo-oriented game - the original sideboard is a little too clunky.

All in all I liked the deck.. although I would like to try 3x tarmogoyf instead of 3x TNN in the future (switching 3 thoughseize for spell pierces)

[ironclad8690]

Congrats for your event. If you did some weird play like this, it's normal you loosed against UR Delver. Try to avoid that and the result will follow. ;-)
Can you tell me how did you feel the snapcaster mage? And the sylvan library? Did you have any problem with the delve spell or it was ok?

Can you be more precise against Shardless BUG, I'm interested in that match up so any comment or advice would be great!

1) Regarding Snapcaster: he helped at the end of the shardless matchup. I did not even use the flashback part, just needed a body to close out the last points of damage, so I tapped out to flash it in. In the Omnitell game, I was able to pitch it to force to win the counter war (a goyf wouldn't have helped in this scenario).

2) Regarding library: was great in the shardless matchup, he had to use an abrupt decay on it clearing the way for my goyf to go unanswered. They do not actually have much removal for a "rock" deck, if you can counter liliana; so they only have 4 decays and often cant remove Delver, DRS, Goyf AND library too.

3) Delve spells were great, either pitch to force early or use when you are low on resources. I did shuffle away a couple of times with brainstorm, because I did not need right then.

Shardless matchup: I used to play Jund so I know how to beat these decks. You have to bolt their early shamans so that they can't tempo you out or make resources of their destroyed non-basics. You have to Try to destroy goyfs if you have a chance or at least play your own to make theirs stay on blocking duty. Only use removal on Strix if you need to get in with a delver or goyf and they are low on hand resources/land resources (otherwise it might be better to save a bolt for a planeswalker or DRS). In sideboarding, you don't want your Force of Wills because they negatively 2 for 1 you and that hurts more in this matchup and BUG delver than anywhere else. You want your Red Blasts/Pyroblasts to stop Jace, Dig Through Time, Ancestral Visions. You want more removal for DRS (I have a forked bolt in SB so I bring it in). You can bring in Ancient Grudge because it is almost always a 2 for 1, but I could see an argument against it as well. Bring in Submerges too, if you can use in response to cracking a fetch on a DRS or goyf definitely dol but if you have a clock it can be enough just to tempo them without the shuffle. I board out 4 Force of Will, 1 Spell Pierce, bring in 2 Submerge, 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Pyroblast.

[AfroSmile]

The deck felt really solid in this slow, controling meta. The snapcaster was great vs everybody - flashing back 1cc removal and countermagic. Sylvan library was equally ok, winning my miracles match by itself and giving a great boost vs aggro loam. I was quite happy with the split. I also changed the sideboard a little, to be able to play a more tempo-oriented game - the original sideboard is a little too clunky.

All in all I liked the deck.. although I would like to try 3x tarmogoyf instead of 3x TNN in the future (switching 3 thoughseize for spell pierces)

What did you change to make it more tempo?


1) Regarding Snapcaster: he helped at the end of the shardless matchup. I did not even use the flashback part, just needed a body to close out the last points of damage, so I tapped out to flash it in. In the Omnitell game, I was able to pitch it to force to win the counter war (a goyf wouldn't have helped in this scenario).

2) Regarding library: was great in the shardless matchup, he had to use an abrupt decay on it clearing the way for my goyf to go unanswered. They do not actually have much removal for a "rock" deck, if you can counter liliana; so they only have 4 decays and often cant remove Delver, DRS, Goyf AND library too.

3) Delve spells were great, either pitch to force early or use when you are low on resources. I did shuffle away a couple of times with brainstorm, because I did not need right then.

Shardless matchup: I used to play Jund so I know how to beat these decks. You have to bolt their early shamans so that they can't tempo you out or make resources of their destroyed non-basics. You have to Try to destroy goyfs if you have a chance or at least play your own to make theirs stay on blocking duty. Only use removal on Strix if you need to get in with a delver or goyf and they are low on hand resources/land resources (otherwise it might be better to save a bolt for a planeswalker or DRS). In sideboarding, you don't want your Force of Wills because they negatively 2 for 1 you and that hurts more in this matchup and BUG delver than anywhere else. You want your Red Blasts/Pyroblasts to stop Jace, Dig Through Time, Ancestral Visions. You want more removal for DRS (I have a forked bolt in SB so I bring it in). You can bring in Ancient Grudge because it is almost always a 2 for 1, but I could see an argument against it as well. Bring in Submerges too, if you can use in response to cracking a fetch on a DRS or goyf definitely dol but if you have a clock it can be enough just to tempo them without the shuffle. I board out 4 Force of Will, 1 Spell Pierce, bring in 2 Submerge, 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Pyroblast.

Thanks for sharing! I will try them in my next playtesting session. I know about the fetch and submerge tricks, but I didn't know about what kind of game plan we wanted to play against them. I have the bad habit to go control and not tempo. -.-'

Another question is how do you beat miracle? What is our game plan? How do you play Sylvan library against them? You play it aggressively to make a card advantage or you go to a slow card quality game? I'm not used to play with sylvan library in general. Do you have any advice on how to use it against Miracle and Shardless BUG?

[ironclad8690]

Miracles doesn't have much of a clock to speak of, so I like to use sylvan library aggressively. I like to play out my creatures early, fight a little bit over removal so their hand doesn't have any more countermagic (ideally), and then drop the Library. Even though you pay 8 life, if puts them in a position where they cannot play around soft counters to clock you with entreat, and you have a breadth of new resources to fight back with. The bad thing that they can drop is RiP, because it neuters even more cards here than it does typical BUG delver. I would definitely use some counterspell resources to stop that from resolving unless I had an abrupt decay in hand, which is already spread a little thin because of counterbalance. Postboard it is better because of pyroblast, so it is harder for them to resolve CB anyways, and you can save abrupt decay for absolutely necessary Counterbalances or RiP.

Shardless on the other hand does have a pretty decent clock in goyf, so I will only use the life if I need to draw a counterspell for a visions if their hand is low or something like that. If I am behind on board I would probably just not pay the life, though you are usually dead in that position anyways.

[AfroSmile]

Miracles doesn't have much of a clock to speak of, so I like to use sylvan library aggressively. I like to play out my creatures early, fight a little bit over removal so their hand doesn't have any more countermagic (ideally), and then drop the Library. Even though you pay 8 life, if puts them in a position where they cannot play around soft counters to clock you with entreat, and you have a breadth of new resources to fight back with. The bad thing that they can drop is RiP, because it neuters even more cards here than it does typical BUG delver. I would definitely use some counterspell resources to stop that from resolving unless I had an abrupt decay in hand, which is already spread a little thin because of counterbalance. Postboard it is better because of pyroblast, so it is harder for them to resolve CB anyways, and you can save abrupt decay for absolutely necessary Counterbalances or RiP.

Shardless on the other hand does have a pretty decent clock in goyf, so I will only use the life if I need to draw a counterspell for a visions if their hand is low or something like that. If I am behind on board I would probably just not pay the life, though you are usually dead in that position anyways.

Thank you for your answer! It was really helpful!

Another question about Miracle: Do you counter the top?
1) with Force (turn 1 -> top)
2) When you're applying pressure with delver/goyf (early/mid/late game) with Force/Pierce (situation where they may have a StP or Jace)?

Another question about the creature package: What do you think of Gurmag Angler / Tasigur?
They are as strong as Tarmogoyf in general (Gurmag is even better) and they cannot be the target of abrupt decay (trouble for Decay.dec). The only problem is other delve spell like DTT and they cannot be played turn 2 because of delve costs.
What do you think? Can they replace Tarmogoyf and make the deck look like Grixis with Decay?

[ironclad8690]

Thank you for your answer! It was really helpful!

Another question about Miracle: Do you counter the top?
1) with Force (turn 1 -> top)
2) When you're applying pressure with delver/goyf (early/mid/late game) with Force/Pierce (situation where they may have a StP or Jace)?

Another question about the creature package: What do you think of Gurmag Angler / Tasigur?
They are as strong as Tarmogoyf in general (Gurmag is even better) and they cannot be the target of abrupt decay (trouble for Decay.dec). The only problem is other delve spell like DTT and they cannot be played turn 2 because of delve costs.
What do you think? Can they replace Tarmogoyf and make the deck look like Grixis with Decay?

1) I used to think countering top was always the right plan on turn 1, but recently I read Phillipp Shoenegger's article here (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-top-6-decks-top-6-recommendations), and he states that "Do yourself a favor and do not cast Force of Will on a Top that’s cast on the first turn as you probably won’t be able to deal with a follow up bomb like Counterbalance that might just shut your whole deck down. If you can cast Spell Pierce, Daze or take it with Thoughtseize, then for god’s sake, go for it. On the postboard games you should focus on cards that are potent against Top like Pithing Needle and Null Rod." If I have an Abrupt Decay for counterbalance in hand I might be more inclined to let it resolve because the "lock" doesn't hit me as hard.

2) I will usually not counter the SDT in the late game, unless they are hellbent or stuck on very few lands. The reason for this is because I would rather save it to win a war over Terminus or Entreat. Heck, sometimes you just need to counter that 1 last Swords to Plowshares so your goyf can get in for 4 one last time to finish them off. Postboard I will usually have either null rod or pithing needle to stop it, though I think the 3 Dig Through Time 2 Abrupt Decay 2 Sylvan Library (in the 75) version of BURG has the most game against miracles due to resiliency to being locked out by CB.

3) I like Gurmag and Tasigur, but I think you need to sculpt your shell around them specifically. For example, when you want to delve that much Gitaxian Probe becomes much better, and that makes you want to pull in Young Pyromancer, and then you are basically just playing Grixis Delver. I think that if you really want to play those cards, you will want to be playing a proactive version of Delver that relies less on cards like Spell Pierce and more on cards like Gitaxian Probe, Pyroblast, and Forked Bolt.

[crush]

What did you change to make it more tempo?

...


Maindeck change:
-1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Sylvan Library

The sideboard changes were:
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Envelop
-1 Toxic Deluge
-1 Jace, TMS
-1 Counterspell
+1 Dismember
+1 Submerge
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb

The point is that after board the deck was trying to play as a midrange deck too much. I don't think this is a good idea when a T1 Delver is your best play.

After playing the deck I would make this additional change in the board:
-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Ancient Grudge

The SB Maelstrom Pulse felt surprisingly good :)

[AfroSmile]

BIG NEWS!!! 2 BURG Delver in top 8 of the GP Lille. Results here (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10022&f=LE) and some videos here (http://www.twitch.tv/magic/v/6953315).

I was there too. And the deck feels really good in this metagame full of Omni-Tell, Miracle and Grixis Delver.
Maybe i'll post a report later.



Maindeck change:
-1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Sylvan Library

...

The point is that after board the deck was trying to play as a midrange deck too much. I don't think this is a good idea when a T1 Delver is your best play.

After playing the deck I would make this additional change in the board:
-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Ancient Grudge

The SB Maelstrom Pulse felt surprisingly good :)

Thank you for sharing.

[Manipulato]

Hey Folks!

I played this weekend at GP Lille and wanted to share my results with you.

After playing with TA as my pet deck I decided to give 4c Delver a chance for Lille because I think Phillip Schönegger & Carsten Kotter are both right that 4c Delver is currently better placed in the meta than TA.
The choice for the deck came very late (only 4 days before the GP), so I decided to play the last chance trial to win some byes & get a feeling for the deck.

Here are my results & my decklist:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library


Friday Last Chance Trials

Round 1: ANT 2:1
Round 2: Death & Taxes 2:1
Round 3: 4c Delver 2:0 (Thomas Már list)
Round 4: Grixis Pyromancer 1:1 (Lost -> KO Rounds -> Lower Life Points)

Result -> 3:0:1

Saturday GP Mainevent

Round 1: Punishing Jund 2:0
Round 2: UW Fish 2:0
Round 3: Miracles 1:1
Round 4: Miracles 0:2 (made Day 2)
Round 5: Grixis Pyromancer 2:0
Round 6: Esper Control 2:0
Round 7: Grixis Delver 2:0
Round 8: Eldrazi Green/12 Post 0:2 (made the 34th place)
Round 9: RUG Pyromancer 2:1

Result -> 6:2:1

Very close but I was in competition till round 8 with my 5:1:1 start.

Both opponents which beat me made Day 2 so I think it was ok to losing to them especially because the Eldrazi Green deck is a unfavourable MU, you can only beat it if we have a fast clock and this version of delver is more slow & controllish than tempo.

This deck dominates all other blue fair decks (Exept for Miracles) and has a better MU against DnT or Miracles than TA or RUG.
One big point what surprised me totaly was that I came back so many times from situations where I was totaly behind and gave up the game mentally.
The only card which were bad are the 2 Cages, I never boarded it in against anything, but I never played against Elves though.

I will next try the Top 8 list from the 2 czech guys but I'm not sure if Tarmogoyf is superior to TNN because I loved TNN over the weekend. The only upside is that Tarmogoyf is faster & clocks the opponent very well which is important against ANT & Omnitell...

Greetings

[ironclad8690]

Went 3-1 in a daily event today beating 2 grixis control decks and 1 nic fit scapeshift deck; losing only to MUD post. List was basically the same as the GP top 8ers, with goyfs and a snapcaster etc.

Here's a question for more experienced Delverer's than myself: Do you guys play and crack fetches early when given the choice to fuel your Dig Through Times, or do you wait and save them for brainstorm to shuffle away the bad stuff?

[crush]

Went 3-1 in a daily event today beating 2 grixis control decks and 1 nic fit scapeshift deck; losing only to MUD post. List was basically the same as the GP top 8ers, with goyfs and a snapcaster etc.

Here's a question for more experienced Delverer's than myself: Do you guys play and crack fetches early when given the choice to fuel your Dig Through Times, or do you wait and save them for brainstorm to shuffle away the bad stuff?

I usually wait till the last possible time. This also gives you also protection vs Wastelands (it is easy to completely waste a 4c deck out of one color).

However, if cracking a fetch will allow you to cast DTT (without exposing yourself), then I guess by all means you should go for it. In situations where you are running out of a colored source I will fetch a redundant dual land to cast Dig, because Dig will provide you with a new fetch anyway..

[AfroSmile]

Here is my GP Lille list.


--- Creatures [13] ---
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

--- Cantrips [11] ---
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time

--- Counterspells [10] ---
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

--- Removals [7] ---
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

--- Lands [19] ---
4 Wasteland

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

--- Sideboard ---
2 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Chirurgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ventilions Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge

I was expecting a lot of combo (Omni-tell mainly) and miracle. Because of that I choose this creature package.
But I fear some wasteland.dec so I keep my manabase with 7 fetches and 7 land (3 lands can produces any color except of blue where it's 6 lands).

GP Lille - Early Birds Trial
Round 1: Burn 2:0
Round 2: ANT 2:0
Round 3: Miracle (Creature package version with Venser and Clique) 1:2

Results -> 2:1

GP Lille - Main event
Round 1: Omni-Tell 2:1
Round 2: Storm (3 Tendrills version) 0:2 (He mades day 2)
Round 3: Belcher 2:0
Round 4: Grixis Delver (Monastery swiftspear version) 0:2
Round 5: Omni-Tell 2:1
Round 6: Grixis Control 2:1
Round 7: Grixis Control 2:1
Round 8: 4c Aggro Loam 1:2
Round 9: Junk Aggro Loam 0:2

Results: 5 - 4
I was really disappointed of this results because the deck was well place in this meta like I said in my last post.
I feel I cannot do a better result because my losses against the Storm deck and the 2 Aggro Loam decks were really hard to win. My opponents drew better card and Loam deck attack my manabase really hard and I didn't open with deathrite shaman. I try do to do my best but it wasn't enough.

I don't know if I have to go on the 12 creatures + sylvan library version because I fear the midrange matchup like Jund where they have a lot of removal and can bring us to the point where we don't have any creature left in the deck.


I will next try the Top 8 list from the 2 czech guys but I'm not sure if Tarmogoyf is superior to TNN because I loved TNN over the weekend. The only upside is that Tarmogoyf is faster & clocks the opponent very well which is important against ANT & Omnitell...
It depends really of the meta. In a meta full of combo deck, i think tarmo is better. A meta with a lot of midrange decks like Jund or Shardless Bug, I think TTN is better.
The deck building of this deck really depends on the meta you are in. We have access to so many good cards.


Here's a question for more experienced Delverer's than myself: Do you guys play and crack fetches early when given the choice to fuel your Dig Through Times, or do you wait and save them for brainstorm to shuffle away the bad stuff?

Edit: Crush gives you a good answer.

It really depends on the situation you're in. If you have BS or Dig in hand. If you want to resolve more one card than the other...
If they have grave hate, if they may have REB main deck or in sideboard, etc..

[ironclad8690]

I have been having trouble with Storm too, even though it should be an even matchup. I think this is due more to me being pretty new to playing counterspells, especially cards like spell pierce where you really have to know when to pull the trigger vs a deck like storm. I have though about putting surgical extractions/extirpates in my board to combat this, which would also help a bit vs punishing fire decks/loam decks/other combo.

As far as the midrange loam decks and jund, I think you just have to get a lucky curve out. Past a certain point, we just cannot win, so we have to present the fast clock and keep the game in the early stages. Life from the loam can help these matchups because of their greedy manabases and high curve.

[btm10]

I've been playing a Prague-inspired list lately with some local meta adjustments:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Dig Through Time
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

9 Blue Fetch
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt

The Dismember is there because there have been a lot of Gurmag Anglers running around recently and I prefer Goyf to TNN, especially with Golgari Charm in the board, and the 3/1 Lightning Bolt/Forked Bolt split is to handle D&T and Pyromancer tokens (together D&T and Grixis have represented close to half the local metagame the last few weeks). Over two events I've gone 5-3 with the deck, losing once each to D&T with the Red splash (which I would've won had I not Dug for the wrong cards), Lands (close loss game 1, I had a quick start and Surgicaled his Punishing Fires G2, and got completely wrecked by turn 1 Mox Diamond + Ghost Quarter + Loam game 3), and Grixis Delver (grindy games 1&2, decided by me finding Dismember (game 2) and me not finding Dismember (game 1), then I kept a hand of Brainstorm, Ponder, Bolt, and 4 Fetchlands game 3 and flooded out), and winning against D&T, RUG Delver, Burn, Grixis, Reanimator, and UWr Mentor. (2-0, 2-0, 2-1, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0). I may go back to 4 Daze/2 Dig, and may add either a Taiga or tenth fetch. The downside to each is that there are so many 1-ofs and games tend to go so long that Daze has limited utility and Dig finds what I need, and I really like having 4 Wasteland.

As for the combo matchups - I don't think they're that bad, especially Storm. It may be because I draw Thoughtseize a lot against them, it may be that I've only encountered Storm decks online where the players aren't as good, but I've also played both RUG and BUG Delvers against Storm a lot of times and know what I need to do in the matchup.

[ironclad8690]

I've been playing a Prague-inspired list lately with some local meta adjustments:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Dig Through Time
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

9 Blue Fetch
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt

The Dismember is there because there have been a lot of Gurmag Anglers running around recently and I prefer Goyf to TNN, especially with Golgari Charm in the board, and the 3/1 Lightning Bolt/Forked Bolt split is to handle D&T and Pyromancer tokens (together D&T and Grixis have represented close to half the local metagame the last few weeks). Over two events I've gone 5-3 with the deck, losing once each to D&T with the Red splash (which I would've won had I not Dug for the wrong cards), Lands (close loss game 1, I had a quick start and Surgicaled his Punishing Fires G2, and got completely wrecked by turn 1 Mox Diamond + Ghost Quarter + Loam game 3), and Grixis Delver (grindy games 1&2, decided by me finding Dismember (game 2) and me not finding Dismember (game 1), then I kept a hand of Brainstorm, Ponder, Bolt, and 4 Fetchlands game 3 and flooded out), and winning against D&T, RUG Delver, Burn, Grixis, Reanimator, and UWr Mentor. (2-0, 2-0, 2-1, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0). I may go back to 4 Daze/2 Dig, and may add either a Taiga or tenth fetch. The downside to each is that there are so many 1-ofs and games tend to go so long that Daze has limited utility and Dig finds what I need, and I really like having 4 Wasteland.

As for the combo matchups - I don't think they're that bad, especially Storm. It may be because I draw Thoughtseize a lot against them, it may be that I've only encountered Storm decks online where the players aren't as good, but I've also played both RUG and BUG Delvers against Storm a lot of times and know what I need to do in the matchup.

I like your approach. I have been working with an almost identical list save for some sideboard choices and 4 Goyf instead of 1 Snapcaster.

I have not been having the best luck with storm, but I am learning how to play against them. Early on I was tapping out turn 1 to play delver instead of leaving up spell pierce, and I lost a surprising amount of games on my opponent's turn 1. I have since changed my approach and am having better results.

I also am trying out some stifle lists, but I feel like Dig pushes you in a different (better) direction.

[btm10]

I like your approach. I have been working with an almost identical list save for some sideboard choices and 4 Goyf instead of 1 Snapcaster.

I have not been having the best luck with storm, but I am learning how to play against them. Early on I was tapping out turn 1 to play delver instead of leaving up spell pierce, and I lost a surprising amount of games on my opponent's turn 1. I have since changed my approach and am having better results.

I also am trying out some stifle lists, but I feel like Dig pushes you in a different (better) direction.

Thanks. I agree that Dig pushes BUrG away from Goose + Stifle. Also, I think it's correct to play Delver or Deathrite on turn 1 against combo, including on the draw. ANT can only rarely win on turn 2 and they'll want to at least Probe before going off into a potential Daze or Force. TES can win more frequently on turn 2, but still won't be going off without either Duress/Therapy, Probe, or a lot of redundancy (and you aren't beating a lot of redundancy anyway). There's an argument for sideboarding another Thoughtseize, Duress or a Clique if there's lots of Storm in your meta. I'd actually love to add a Clique now that I write this.

[Goddik]

Hi guys

I am the Danish guy who built the TNN list. Sadly i couldn't go to lille to crush with it. It is very well positioned.

A brief explanation to the deck: I play the deck like a control deck in almost every matchup after board. I think i am something like 10-0 against miracles with it, because they cant outgrind our digs and snapcasters. Jace is very critical to this plan, as everyone and their mother will be boarding in useless removal which blanks your creature plan. The delver plan is mostly a backup plan for maindeck matches where you cant tune the 60, and postboard matches where grinding is not enough (e.g. combo). I have rarely played a deck where i felt my sideboard was as awesome as

The combination of TNN and dig is incredible because they handle large swaths of the meta who traditionally crush delver decks. if for example you play against the Kronberger loam list, playing a nemesis and then holding force for liliana is a very real way to kill them while their deck does nothing, while the delver plan gets punishing fired, chaliced and wasted into oblivion

The biggest problem is the tempo mirror (mainly canadian and grixis), where the deck is a bit slow and lacks trumps. I am currently considering cutting the delvers to play tarmogoyfs instead to compensate for this. An alternative solution we have been tinkering with is boarding anglers.

[Goddik]

Basically, i think there are two ways you can go with the bUrg lists

1. The one that got 2 people into top 8 at lille, which is to play tarmogoyfs and pierces => Clearly a tempo deck
2. The one i play, with nemesis, snapcaster and nemesis => More controlling.

Both are legitimate, deck 1. clearly wins the mirror. I feel like 2. Gives me so much edge against the rest of the field though, that i am willing to attempt to fight a bit with the tempo mirror and try to solve it.

[Goddik]

Thoughtseize is btw miles better against storm then pierce and stifle which they can both play around in the long games. Stifle and pierce forces you to play very aggressively, and are both terrible in quite alot of matchups. I have generally been very dissatisfied with the blue 1.drop counters in the current format.

[AfroSmile]

Hi guys

I am the Danish guy who built the TNN list. Sadly i couldn't go to lille to crush with it. It is very well positioned.

A brief explanation to the deck: I play the deck like a control deck in almost every matchup after board. I think i am something like 10-0 against miracles with it, because they cant outgrind our digs and snapcasters. Jace is very critical to this plan, as everyone and their mother will be boarding in useless removal which blanks your creature plan. The delver plan is mostly a backup plan for maindeck matches where you cant tune the 60, and postboard matches where grinding is not enough (e.g. combo). I have rarely played a deck where i felt my sideboard was as awesome as

The combination of TNN and dig is incredible because they handle large swaths of the meta who traditionally crush delver decks. if for example you play against the Kronberger loam list, playing a nemesis and then holding force for liliana is a very real way to kill them while their deck does nothing, while the delver plan gets punishing fired, chaliced and wasted into oblivion

The biggest problem is the tempo mirror (mainly canadian and grixis), where the deck is a bit slow and lacks trumps. I am currently considering cutting the delvers to play tarmogoyfs instead to compensate for this. An alternative solution we have been tinkering with is boarding anglers.

...

Thank you for sharing! I really like your explanation and your approach of the deck.
I want to write something about it, but sadly I don't have the time this next few weeks. :cry:
But I'm looking forward to the discussion we can brought about this amazing archetype!

Between DTT wasn't ban so we have time to bring this deck to the top in this meta!

[ironclad8690]

Thoughtseize is btw miles better against storm then pierce and stifle which they can both play around in the long games. Stifle and pierce forces you to play very aggressively, and are both terrible in quite alot of matchups. I have generally been very dissatisfied with the blue 1.drop counters in the current format.

What was in your sideboard? I don't think they listed it on tcdecks or the prague eternal website.

I like your approach to the storm matchup, it is tough to succeed with only soft counters and FoW preboard. Flusterstorm is nice in the post-board games, but that only goes so far. I have even been thinking about permanent based hate such as Null Rod/Grafdigger's for my metagame, as there are multiple storm players that I face every week.

I have found that Stifle is basically worthless against Storm unless you are countering a fetchland activation. Half the time you don't have a threat and countermagic is only delaying the inevitable, meanwhile they shred your hand with Duress/Past in Flames Duress before the crucial Storm spell is cast.

[Goddik]

http://mtgpulse.com/event/20281#287138

For a link

[Goddik]

swap the counterspell in the board for a thoughtseize

pulse and null rod can be used as flex slots.

Rest of the board is amazing

[btm10]

The biggest problem is the tempo mirror (mainly canadian and grixis), where the deck is a bit slow and lacks trumps. I am currently considering cutting the delvers to play tarmogoyfs instead to compensate for this. An alternative solution we have been tinkering with is boarding anglers.

That's ultimately why I went with Tarmogoyf over TNN but decided to go fairly controlling otherwise. I also considered cutting Delvers entirely; the list I put together is below. I've only it on Cockatrice so far, but I might take it to my local on Friday and see what happens.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Golgari Charm

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Forked Bolt

[Manipulato]

http://mtgpulse.com/event/20281#287138

For a link

Hi,
I took your list to the GP Lille (6:2:1) and were quite happy with the list. I have to say that this shell just dominates all other blue fair decks which feels great (Won every game 2:0). The problem is just that the deck is without Tarmogoyf very slow against Storm & Omnitell (exept you have the T1 Delver).
Even Elves was very rough...I just smashed all his creatures but I had never a real clock to end the game parallel so that they could restart they`re buisness.
The 1off Taiga fels sometimes a bit problematic too with 5 UU spells in the deck, but yes the option to operate on two lands (Sea & Taiga) is nice but I´m not sure about it. The two Top 8 lists played none non-blue dual...So...

Currently I switched to the Thomas Mar list (Which went Top 8 GP Lille) but had no time to really test it...TNN was really bonkers against Miracles, DnT & those Grixis decks but having no realy clock exept for Delver is something I dont really liked about the list...

Your originally sideboard was really really focused on Miracles which I changed a bit...But ok...

We will see how the Goyf/Pierce list will flow for me.

Greetings

[Manipulato]

Hi,
I took your list to the GP Lille (6:2:1) and were quite happy with the list. I have to say that this shell just dominates all other blue fair decks which feels great (Won every game 2:0). The problem is just that the deck is without Tarmogoyf very slow against Storm & Omnitell (exept you have the T1 Delver).
Even Elves was very rough...I just smashed all his creatures but I had never a real clock to end the game parallel so that they could restart they`re buisness.
The 1off Taiga fels sometimes a bit problematic too with 5 UU spells in the deck, but yes the option to operate on two lands (Sea & Taiga) is nice but I´m not sure about it. The two Top 8 lists played none non-blue dual...So...

Currently I switched to the Thomas Mar list (Which went Top 8 GP Lille) but had no time to really test it...TNN was really bonkers against Miracles, DnT & those Grixis decks but having no good clock exept for Delver is something I dont really liked about the list...

Your originally sideboard was really really focused on Miracles which I changed a bit...But ok...

We will see how the Goyf/Pierce list will flow for me.

Greetings

[mosaic]

I came to Goddik list too, as a long time TA player and I like Goddik's plan. Fun games with the deck though, beating reanimator with Elesh Norn out (= no creatures for me), snapcasters are awesome and bolts were always what TA was missing out.
However I find it quite hard to play against jund, just as with TA (hymn version), my cards always feel worse then theirs, but it might be my inexperience with this list. If you do not mind my asking, what would be your approach against jund?

[Goddik]

Jace to beat elesh? Jund is a lot like the 4 c loam decks. Nemesis is the only card that really matters. If you have it you win, if not you loose. Thankfully we have plenty of tools and time to find it.
Keep in force and be prepared to use it on Lilian's and go charm. Everything else in their deck is almost irrelevant

[mosaic]

Oh no, that was game 1, and opponent was on 9, had already one bolt in the hand, the other along with snapcaster was found with dtt turn later.

Hm with TA, I always sided out forces against jund, I will try this approach, thanks for advice. Lili was pretty bad news for me.
Also like the idea of swapping delvers for goyfs, because even with the deck containing 28 cards, which make delver flip, it is often just 1/1 and you find yourself losing just because of it. Goyf is probably not 4 of though, angler from the side looks also as a fine choice.

[matty]

Is it a bad idea to side out Delvers against Miracles? I've been trying it out lately and it works pretty well. It just seems like they get plowed before they do anything worthwhile and we have a lot of sideboard cards that can really shut them down.

Abrupt Decay has been good enough to make me think they're worth having 4 of in our 75 as well.

[ironclad8690]

I have wondered the same thing. They are pretty good at shutting down plan A delver beatdown, so maybe taking a more controlling approach that doesnt succumb to counter top lock (planeswalkers, enchantments, artifacts) might be better. We do need to stick a threat eventually, but something like true name will take that role/something that demands a terminus.

[Goddik]

I regularly shave delvers in some matchups. They are rarely the first thing that come out, but they are usually pretty bad post-board. A t1 delver is very unlikely to go the distance against something like miracles.

Against miracles though, i find that i have so much to board out, between wastelands, bolts and dazes, that i rarely get to shave delvers.

[ESG]

Is it a bad idea to side out Delvers against Miracles? I've been trying it out lately and it works pretty well. It just seems like they get plowed before they do anything worthwhile and we have a lot of sideboard cards that can really shut them down.

Abrupt Decay has been good enough to make me think they're worth having 4 of in our 75 as well.

If you're siding out Delvers, you are possibly playing the wrong deck. If Delver isn't what you want, then why are you on a Delver deck? It's one of the best tempo creatures there is -- if not the best -- and you're a tempo deck. If Delver is considered not good enough vs. Miracles, then either you're an ineffective tempo strategy and you need a different shell, or you should be playing a midrange or control deck that you feel is better positioned against Miracles, like maybe Grixis Control.

[Goddik]

If you're siding out Delvers, you are possibly playing the wrong deck. If Delver isn't what you want, then why are you on a Delver deck? It's one of the best tempo creatures there is -- if not the best -- and you're a tempo deck. If Delver is considered not good enough vs. Miracles, then either you're an ineffective tempo strategy and you need a different shell, or you should be playing a midrange or control deck that you feel is better positioned against Miracles, like maybe Grixis Control.

I could not disagree more. Delver strategies are very powerfull because you can switch rolls between aggro and controll. Delver is a big part of the aggro side of that.

The agressive side is a very good baseline strategy for pre-board games, it gives you game against most of the field, but it is often suboptimal post-board. After board you want to be either agressive or controlling depending on the matchup.

That being said i am currently experimenting with cutting the delvers entirely to play more tarmogoyfs ;-)

[Einherjer]

That being said i am currently experimenting with cutting the delvers entirely to play more tarmogoyfs ;-)

That's also what I've been trying for a couple of days now. :)

To be honest, though. I'm trying a lot of things right now.

Greetings

[btm10]

That's also what I've been trying for a couple of days now. :)

To be honest, though. I'm trying a lot of things right now.

Greetings

I tried my Delver-less list above -1 Deluge, -1 Golgari Charm, -1 Taiga, +1 Counterspell, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Volcanic Island (and changing the Catacombs to Polluted Delta) online and at my local Legacy FNM and I really do like having the Delvers over the bigger creatures. It really helps out in the combo matchups to have a fast clock, especially when you don't have to rely on DRS to have a threat and disruption on turn 2 or in Delver mirrors where you want removal + open mana early since you're almost never the beatdown in these matchups and tapping out early on for a Wall isn't great.

I'm also trying a bunch of different decks right now, and I'm not sure where I'm going to land.

[ironclad8690]

Looks like some people are already starting to take the delverless approach online:

UBRG by HJ_Kaiser (3-1)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Dig Through Time
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Dismember
2 Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize


In hindsight this may just be Goddik

[Goddik]

Yeah, that's me.

Have been playing a couple of dailies over the weekend 1x (2-2) 2 x (3-1) and 1 (4-0).

Tarmogoyfs have for the record been amazing, i have not missed the delvers, but have won several games against grixis decks where they had tons of bolts, some where they even resolved one or more digs. Tarmogoyf just munches their face, and allows me to be agressive, where delver would simply die.

Combo seems to be completely dead on modo at the moment. I don't know if it has been banished by the millions of cabal therapies and elementals flying around

3 of my losses have been to infect. I have no idea how it is happening, but he (cartesian) seem to grind me out.....

@Einherjer, would love to know what you are brewing.... Miracles not digging hard enough?

As a side note, the badlands manabase is way superior to the taiga one. I don't know why i never saw this.... Badlands actually casts multiple spells in the deck

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, that's me.

Have been playing a couple of dailies over the weekend 1x (2-2) 2 x (3-1) and 1 (4-0).

Tarmogoyfs have for the record been amazing, i have not missed the delvers, but have won several games against grixis decks where they had tons of bolts, some where they even resolved one or more digs. Tarmogoyf just munches their face, and allows me to be agressive, where delver would simply die.

Combo seems to be completely dead on modo at the moment. I don't know if it has been banished by the millions of cabal therapies and elementals flying around

3 of my losses have been to infect. I have no idea how it is happening, but he (cartesian) seem to grind me out.....

@Einherjer, would love to know what you are brewing.... Miracles not digging hard enough?

As a side note, the badlands manabase is way superior to the taiga one. I don't know why i never saw this.... Badlands actually casts multiple spells in the deck

Nice, I was able to 3-1 today vs Infect (Cartesian, 2-1), Storm (2-1), Grixis Control (0-2), and Sylvan Plug (2-0) with the GP Lille top 8 version (with Delvers).

I really want to try out Goddik's version but I am missing Scalding Tarns, Jaces, and Thoughtseizes; all of which are pretty expensive online.

[AfroSmile]

As a side note, the badlands manabase is way superior to the taiga one. I don't know why i never saw this.... Badlands actually casts multiple spells in the deck
I totally agree with you! Since I saw this list from a previous post, I always play my manabase like this: 7 fetchs, 3 tropical, 2 Usea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Badlands and 4 Waste.


http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79211

Any thoughts on this list?

You always search for tropical first and then you can go for Usea, Volcanic or Badlands depending on your hand. If I have Tropical + Badlands, I usually go for Usea because of deathrite activation. With this manabase, you can go for Liliana in the sideboard if you want. I don't play her anymore but she pretty fine in the deck. 7 fetch may be to low when we are running 3 Dig through time. Sometimes i feel like my graveyard was not big enough.

I'm actually playing 3 decay but I'm considering to move one in sideboard and go with the 3 thoughseize + 3-4 goyf build.
T1: Thoughseize
T2: Tarmo + Daze back up seems to be a strong start. If you go delverless, i'll go 4 discard for sur.

This new delverless approach is interesting. I feel it like a blue midrange list being a sort of blue Jund. Can have some strong start and then tempo out the opponent with cheap spell and card advantage. Maybe give a try to punishing fire. :-P
But I think it isn't tempo anymore. Maybe we have to start a new thread in New and Developmental Section of the forum.
I'm sad because I have no time to test this version of the deck. :'(

[MadRhetoric17]

Hello bUrg'ers! First time posting in this thread. I recently completely my deck and took it for a spin this Sunday at an SCG IQ, the first round being the first games I've ever played with the deck. I ended up not losing a game until the finals, where I punted game 2 to lose 0-2 overall. Below are the decklist (Noah Walker build taken from SCG list) and details.

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt

The rounds in order:
Abzan Land Destruction - Win 2-0 (I assume had loams, but I never saw them. Did have cycling lands, sinkholes, KotR, BoBs, etc.)
Affinity - Win 2-0 (Believe this was his first legacy tourney. Nice kid, hope he keeps playing the format.)
Shardless BUG - Win 2-0 (Made a play I learned watching Eli Kasis. Bolted a 3/4 'goyf, which my opponent was happy to let resolve, then cast Angler delving my yard which kills the 'goyf before he can respond.)
UWR Stoneblade - ID (We play it out and I win in 3.)
UWR Stoneblade - ID

Top 8:
Merfolk - Win 2-0 (Close games, but gitaxian probes give me the information I need to sequence much better than him.)
UWR Stoneblade - Win 2-0 (I remember probes again giving me super valuable information to time my threats/wastelands perfectly.)
Infect - 0-2 (Opponent picked his times to go for it very well and in game 2 I just forgot how vines works.)

Overall, the deck just clicked from the moment I started playing it. I come from playing Elves and have never touched brainstorm/FoW before, so it was so fun getting to cast new spells. I loved the maindeck and wouldn't change a thing. The SB is flexible as always, and decay will probably get changed for something else before the next tourney. Likely a darkblast, surgical extraction, or null rod. I can't wait to play it more and (hopefully) contribute to the thread.

[ironclad8690]

Just 3-0d at my shop. Beat Maverick 2-1, beat jeskai blade 2-0, then beat bant blade 2-1. Still playing Tomas Mar's prague eternal list, but with more removal in the sideboard.

[AfroSmile]

Hello bUrg'ers! First time posting in this thread. I recently completely my deck and took it for a spin this Sunday at an SCG IQ, the first round being the first games I've ever played with the deck. I ended up not losing a game until the finals, where I punted game 2 to lose 0-2 overall. Below are the decklist (Noah Walker build taken from SCG list) and details.

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt

...

Thank you for sharing, but it's not really bUrg Delver. It's more like Grixis Delver splashing green for deathrite activation. There is only 1 green spell in the sideboard (except of deathrite shaman) and usually there is no green spell in this deck.
You maybe want to check this threads (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-Grixis-Tempo) instead.

bUrg Delver play spell of all the 4 colors. You can check this deck too. It's really fun to play it and it becomes more popular in EU. ;-)


Just 3-0d at my shop. Beat Maverick 2-1, beat jeskai blade 2-0, then beat bant blade 2-1. Still playing Tomas Mar's prague eternal list, but with more removal in the sideboard.

Can you be more precise and tell us what change you made in your sideboard. I think it's really important to write which cards you changed and how you felt them in your 75 in your meta. Sometimes, it's really hard to have a good sideboard in this deck. Having detailed report about the sideboard card is really useful and may improve our understanding of deck from your point of view. If you know what I mean.

[Manipulato]

Thank you for sharing, but it's not really bUrg Delver. It's more like Grixis Delver splashing green for deathrite activation. There is only 1 green spell in the sideboard (except of deathrite shaman) and usually there is no green spell in this deck.
You maybe want to check this threads (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-Grixis-Tempo) instead.

bUrg Delver play spell of all the 4 colors. You can check this deck too. It's really fun to play it and it becomes more popular in EU. ;-)



Can you be more precise and tell us what change you made in your sideboard. I think it's really important to write which cards you changed and how you felt them in your 75 in your meta. Sometimes, it's really hard to have a good sideboard in this deck. Having detailed report about the sideboard card is really useful and may improve our understanding of deck from your point of view. If you know what I mean.

+1 both statements :smile:
Splash more green for AD or Library MD and your in our club :wink:

[MadRhetoric17]

Ah, thanks for the clarification guys. I really wasn't sure which thread was right since there are many new variations of this type of deck. Just means I need to monitor both threads :)

[ironclad8690]

Mainboard: Mar's exact 75 -1 Misty Rainforest +1 Wasteland, -1 Snapcaster Mage +1 True-Name Nemesis

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Submerge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

The pulse was very good, being able to take out whatever permanent I needed to get rid of. I dont have as much green in my meta so Submerge was reduced to 1 copy. The singleton Library in the main is enough due to the lack of miracles in my meta, so I replaced that with a Dismember for the fair matchups. Finally, with the last Wasteland moved to the mainboard, I had room for Grafdigger's because I expect Storm and Elves.

The games I lost were often game 1s where the countermagic was bad (Maverick) and I board in extremely efficient answers in their place (Golg Charm, Forked Bolt).

In the UWR blade matchup, game 1 I established a true name with him at 10 life, and even though he connected 1 time with a jitte, lightning bolt let me race him. Game 2 he bloodmooned himself out of the game while I had a Deathrite in play with a couple of lands in the yard, so I played a goyf and beat down.

The bant match was strange. Game 1 I tempod him out easily with 3 lightning bolts to answer his creatures. Game 2 he played two noble hierarchs and a clique and beat for 5 for several turns while I was stuck on 1 Underground Sea (brainstorm + ponder in opener couldnt find more). Game 3 was super close, but I had just enough DRS activations for the win.

[AfroSmile]

Mainboard: Mar's exact 75 -1 Misty Rainforest +1 Wasteland, -1 Snapcaster Mage +1 True-Name Nemesis

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Submerge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

...

Really thank you! It's really helpful and always interesting. For some people, certain choices are obvious but it's not the case of everybody. We have to think about that.
And it provides a more methodical approach of the deck development.

I think the primer needs really a big update. The deck is becoming more popular and the Dig Through Time is really necessary in the pack.
Some relevant information must be underlying like how to play some cards like Sylvan Library.
We can take some relevant article like the one of Einherjer about forcing Top T1 against Miracle, etc.

Sasan is always on the forum or did he leave?
If he's here, we can always send him the modification of the primer. Or maybe he can come back here and play bUrg again! :tongue:

[Lifeloss]

The mana-base in this thing terrifies me. Not on what to play, but doesnt it just get crushed by RUG delver?

[Goddik]

As bad as being 4 c is for our manabase, us having deathrite shaman is worse for them. So i would say, not necessarily

What makes the matchup challenging is typically more that their creatures are better and more resilient then ours. They have nimble mongoos and tarmogoyf which are both very hard to handle, whereas we have only tarmogoyf that doesnt die to bolt (in the go top 8 list), or nemesis (in the more midrangy list)

[ironclad8690]

Played in a Daily and went 0-2 drop losing to two burn decks. I have to say this match up doesn't seem very good. Grim lavamancer can shrink goyf and dome all of our creatures. I also drew somewhat poorly, but it really felt like I was behind the entire game. Anyone else experience this?

[AfroSmile]

As bad as being 4 c is for our manabase, us having deathrite shaman is worse for them. So i would say, not necessarily

What makes the matchup challenging is typically more that their creatures are better and more resilient then ours. They have nimble mongoos and tarmogoyf which are both very hard to handle, whereas we have only tarmogoyf that doesnt die to bolt (in the go top 8 list), or nemesis (in the more midrangy list)

And we have bolt AND decay. So their goyf can be kill too. It's not the case with us or it's at least 2 for 1. :D
But it's true that sometimes it goes wrong and they can just mana denial us to death...


Played in a Daily and went 0-2 drop losing to two burn decks. I have to say this match up doesn't seem very good. Grim lavamancer can shrink goyf and dome all of our creatures. I also drew somewhat poorly, but it really felt like I was behind the entire game. Anyone else experience this?

I play the matchup in aggro mode, we don't stand a chance if we go in the mid/late game. I think Goyf is really good (stop goblin guide and other early aggression). We can let land/instant/sorcery in our graveyard pretty easily.
Creature comes too if we play a deathrite. :D

But this match up is sometimes really hard. I feel like it's like we are really dependent of our draw. Searing blaze and PoP are really hard for us too.

[Lifeloss]

And we have bolt AND decay. So their goyf can be kill too. It's not the case with us or it's at least 2 for 1. :D
But it's true that sometimes it goes wrong and they can just mana denial us to death...

Yes, I was not questioning 4-color delver's power level. It is the mana base that is terrifying and is the obvious angle you attack this kind of strategy.

It can completely fold to wasteland / stifle. Also opening hands like Abrupt Decay, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite, Deathrite, Wasteland, XXX, Volcanic Island do happen.

[AfroSmile]

Yes, I was not questioning 4-color delver's power level. It is the mana base that is terrifying and is the obvious angle you attack this kind of strategy.

It can completely fold to wasteland / stifle. Also opening hands like Abrupt Decay, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite, Deathrite, Wasteland, XXX, Volcanic Island do happen.

Sure like I said, they can mana denial us to death.
It's true that hand like that may happen, worst are hand like Taiga/Badlands, Wasteland and 5 other non-land cards. Or hand with +5 lands cards.

The first case is really rare, because you need to have 4 of your green spell and no land that produces black or green mana.
And in some case, if you are on the draw and the XXX card is a cantrip, it may be a keep in some case.
The second case happen more often, because you only need to have 2 lands that don't produce blue mana.
And you mulligan it more often because you really need blue in the deck.

It occurs more often than other deck, but I think the risk is acceptable. It's one of the tricky part of the deck.
My answer might be incomplete, but the problem is there.

[ironclad8690]

I have not had many problems with being mana denial'd out. I think Deathrite Shaman goes a long way in "denial-proofing" the deck. You could definitely play a Life from the Loam in your sideboard if you are worried about that type of match up.

[wcm8]

There's been some discussion regarding the [lacking] power of Spell Pierce in this deck, and some competent players who've been testing the deck have suggested dropping it in favor of discard. Thoughtseize is great in combo and control matchups, but I think Hymn could work if the deck added a Bayou to its mess of a mana-base.

Something like this:

19 Lands:
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou (able to cast DRS on turn 1, helps enable BB for Hymn and B/G for Decay)
3-4 Wasteland (probably safer to run only 3)
8-9 Fetchlands (4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 1 Strand/Tarn/Catacombs if playing the 9th fetch)

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf (or some variation with Snapcaster and/or TNN)

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 L.Bolt
2 Decay
2 DTT
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize // Hymn to Tourach (taking Spell Pierce slots)
1 [flex: DTT, Pyroblast, Tasigur, Liliana, etc.]

This essentially gives us BUG Delver with a Red splash for maindeck Lightning Bolt and some additional powerful sideboard options.

Why drop Spell Pierce? Discard is proactive, which seems to fit with this deck's tap-out approach in the early game. Without Stifle, the 4th Wasteland and Nimble Mongoose, games will tend to go a bit longer and thus Spell Pierce becomes much weaker. Hymn to Tourach, simply put, can randomly win games and often remains powerful longer into the game. Alternatively, Thoughtseize is great against most combo decks and helps you sidestep getting into a stack war.

Why add Red instead of just playing BUG? 3-color decks pretty much always have a rough time against Blood Moon and other strategies that attack their manabase, but Red helps patch up some of the weaknesses that BUG Delver had. Namely: having relatively poor 1-mana removal options, lacking Burn to reach for the last few points of damage in the mid-game, being extra susceptible to a resolved Jace TMS, and having some difficulty against Show and Tell and Batterskull. Cards like Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, and Lightning Bolt address these weaknesses and there aren't really perfect parallel options within BUG.

I realize that there are occasionally going to be some awkward hands with Bayou that would have otherwise been keepable had it been a Blue dual-land, but that's a risk one needs to accept by playing a 4-color deck.

edit: As for the sideboard, I would probably play the following:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction
3 [flex: Dread of Night, Submerge, Dismember, Forked Bolt, Life from the Loam, Winter Orb, etc.]

Also wanted to mention that Rakdos Charm is an interesting card that has multiple applications: artifact removal, graveyard removal, and sometimes you might live the dream against token/swarm strategies (e.g. I will never forget the time I observed an Elves player lose to the 1-damage mode as he was swinging in for lethal with his giant team).

I think the other Charms are likewise useful: Golgari Charm. Izzet Charm, and Dimir Charm have utility in multiple matchups.

Another card that is rarely considered: Slaughter Games. This card is kind of like the definitive version of Meddling Mage. While 4 mana might seem quite a bit, with the help of DRS playing this prior to the combo turn should be feasible. Perhaps burg decks could run 1-2 copies in Omni-heavy metagames. I can also imagine it being quite good against some control decks as well.

[Manipulato]

There's been some discussion regarding the [lacking] power of Spell Pierce in this deck, and some competent players who've been testing the deck have suggested dropping it in favor of discard. Thoughtseize is great in combo and control matchups, but I think Hymn could work if the deck added a Bayou to its mess of a mana-base.

Something like this:

19 Lands:
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou (able to cast DRS on turn 1, helps enable BB for Hymn and B/G for Decay)
3-4 Wasteland (probably safer to run only 3)
8-9 Fetchlands (4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 1 Strand/Tarn/Catacombs if playing the 9th fetch)

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf (or some variation with Snapcaster and/or TNN)

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 L.Bolt
2 Decay
2 DTT
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize // Hymn to Tourach (taking Spell Pierce slots)
1 [flex: DTT, Pyroblast, Tasigur, Liliana, etc.]

This essentially gives us BUG Delver with a Red splash for maindeck Lightning Bolt and some additional powerful sideboard options.

Why drop Spell Pierce? Discard is proactive, which seems to fit with this deck's tap-out approach in the early game. Without Stifle, the 4th Wasteland and Nimble Mongoose, games will tend to go a bit longer and thus Spell Pierce becomes much weaker. Hymn to Tourach, simply put, can randomly win games and often remains powerful longer into the game. Alternatively, Thoughtseize is great against most combo decks and helps you sidestep getting into a stack war.

Why add Red instead of just playing BUG? 3-color decks pretty much always have a rough time against Blood Moon and other strategies that attack their manabase, but Red helps patch up some of the weaknesses that BUG Delver had. Namely: having relatively poor 1-mana removal options, lacking Burn to reach for the last few points of damage in the mid-game, being extra susceptible to a resolved Jace TMS, and having some difficulty against Show and Tell and Batterskull. Cards like Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, and Lightning Bolt address these weaknesses and there aren't really perfect parallel options within BUG.

I realize that there are occasionally going to be some awkward hands with Bayou that would have otherwise been keepable had it been a Blue dual-land, but that's a risk one needs to accept by playing a 4-color deck.

edit: As for the sideboard, I would probably play the following:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction
3 [flex: Dread of Night, Submerge, Dismember, Forked Bolt, Life from the Loam, Winter Orb, etc.]

Also wanted to mention that Rakdos Charm is an interesting card that has multiple applications: artifact removal, graveyard removal, and sometimes you might live the dream against token/swarm strategies (e.g. I will never forget the time I observed an Elves player lose to the 1-damage mode as he was swinging in for lethal with his giant team).

I think the other Charms are likewise useful: Golgari Charm. Izzet Charm, and Dimir Charm have utility in multiple matchups.

Another card that is rarely considered: Slaughter Games. This card is kind of like the definitive version of Meddling Mage. While 4 mana might seem quite a bit, with the help of DRS playing this prior to the combo turn should be feasible. Perhaps burg decks could run 1-2 copies in Omni-heavy metagames. I can also imagine it being quite good against some control decks as well.

Hi,
I think that Hymn is a absolut no go for this deck, no matter if you add Bayou or not...A 4c deck with double blue & double black cards is just way to fragile. Thoughtseize is legitimate.

[zebhillard]

I really don't think Hymn is the way to go, either. I'm currently running the True-Name version with 3 Thoughtseize and it has yet to be poor for me in the majority of matchups. If you're looking for discard, I would go with it or Inquisition.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And with DTT in the format, I'm pretty sure you want Thoughtseize over IoK.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Lormador]

I really don't think Hymn is the way to go, either. I'm currently running the True-Name version with 3 Thoughtseize and it has yet to be poor for me in the majority of matchups. If you're looking for discard, I would go with it or Inquisition.

I've been having an unexpected degree of trouble with just this particular variant. RUG Delver ate me for breakfast. Nimble Mongeese kept beating my face, and the TNNs sent in to save me from the savage woodland critters were sent to the graveyard ignominiously Dazed. This was after Stifle ate one of my lands and I had to hold back my own Wasteland to cast the 3-drop in the first place.

The -2 life from Thoughtseize mattered against RUG.

[Wombo Combo]

I've been having an unexpected degree of trouble with just this particular variant. RUG Delver ate me for breakfast. Nimble Mongeese kept beating my face, and the TNNs sent in to save me from the savage woodland critters were sent to the graveyard ignominiously Dazed. This was after Stifle ate one of my lands and I had to hold back my own Wasteland to cast the 3-drop in the first place.

The -2 life from Thoughtseize mattered against RUG.

Would probably help if you posted a list. I didn't have any trouble beating both of my RUG Delver opponents this weekend. It's certainly not an easy matchup, but I feel slightly favored. An active DRS is usually pretty terrible for them. My main game plan is to deal with their early Delver and then clog up the board with goyf. Eventually, they will run out of cards while you get to refill with DTT. I was running the pierce version, so that could be better in this instance. One thing I noticed is that you really want to just play out wasteland for extra mana. They are just so mana efficient that it's very unlikely that you are screwing them more than yourself when you waste them early. I think you only waste them when you have a significant board lead.

[btm10]

I've been having an unexpected degree of trouble with just this particular variant. RUG Delver ate me for breakfast. Nimble Mongeese kept beating my face, and the TNNs sent in to save me from the savage woodland critters were sent to the graveyard ignominiously Dazed. This was after Stifle ate one of my lands and I had to hold back my own Wasteland to cast the 3-drop in the first place.

The -2 life from Thoughtseize mattered against RUG.

I think the Goyf version of the deck is better against RUG than the TNN version. You want to play the matchup as much like you're BUG Delver as possible. Deathrite, Goyf, and Decay are huge problems for them, so your counters and Thoughtseizes should go toward making sure DRS and Goyf stick and your mana doesn't get too screwed up. You're definitely not the beatdown here, and they play the mana denial game better than you do, so you want to assume the control role pretty thoroughly. You always have the option of shifting geara quickly if they stumble, but you'll usually lose a race.

[Lormador]

The list I'm playing is Petr Sochurek's 6th place GP list, only with TNNs switched in for Tarmogoyfs. This is not only because I do not have any Tarmogoyfs, but also because I like the Merfolk Rogue better against all the control matchups. At the time of the testing, I had also switched the Spell Pierce for Thoughtseize, but this actually didn't work out very well (to my surprise).

I came to this list after working on a Grixis Delver list for quite awhile, in which I'd worked Liliana of the Veil into the manabase along with a Bayou. This was working for me pretty well, but then I considered which dynamic duo I'd rather have: Young Pyromancer plus Liliana of the Veil or Sylvan Library plus True-Name Nemesis. I've sided with the later.

I got 6 test games against RUG, and in every game the player who went first was the victor. Since I lost the die roll in both sets, the result was 2-4. On the play the deck worked fine, I could fetch into a land without fear of Stifle and resolve a threat with Daze backup. This play put the deck so far ahead that RUG never caught up, particularly if the threat was a Deathrite Shaman. On the draw, the shoe was on the other hand. The RUG player got to work on my manabase, throwing down green monsters I could only answer with the Nemesis. TNN got harder to cast every time a land was destroyed.

If there were one sideboard card to use against them in such a situation, what would it be? Life from the Loam?

[Goddik]

Goyf is much better against tempo then Tnn, simply because it is easier to cast. The tempo matchup for the tnn version is not that pretty. This ultimately is why i started cutting the delvers for goyfs.

The sideboard card that we have considered is Angler, which should be a roadblock in the mirror as well (where it does not get hit by abrupt decay). Loam is good as well, but i dont think it solves the fundamental problem, which is their mongoose and goyfs.

As regards hymn, i dont think it is totally unrealistic, but i think it might be more greedy then we need to be, also considering that i dont think it is better then thoughtseize

[ironclad8690]

Played this in a DE today:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library

2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Forked Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm

Went 2-1 vs UR Delver, 2-0 vs Storm, 2-1 vs BUG Delver, and then 1-2 against Jeskai Ascendancy (Wind Zendikon, Mentor, and other random crap). I made mistakes vs the ascendancy player for sure, such as not tapping a Trop for Abrupt Decay mana before returning it to my have for Daze, which I think lost me game 3.

[Goddik]

Cool. Can you explain the use of illness in the ranks in the board?

[Manipulato]

Cool. Can you explain the use of illness in the ranks in the board?

I think its against YP & Mentor token. Dread of Night only works against Mentor token but does more against DnT...Meta choice.

[Plague Sliver]

I think its against YP & Mentor token. Dread of Night only works against Mentor token but does more against DnT...Meta choice.

Sulfur Elemental is worth considering. Tech from ANT, though they have the element of surprise post-board.

[Manipulato]

Hey delverinhos,
here's my current 4c Delver version which I got finaly foiled (Exept for the 1 Delta, which is a flexible slot).

Hope you like it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=897316#post897316

[ironclad8690]

I think its against YP & Mentor token. Dread of Night only works against Mentor token but does more against DnT...Meta choice.

Exactly this! The online metagame has way more Mentor and Young Pyromancer than Mother of Runes and Thalia, so I'd rather have a way to deal with tokens than just white creatures. Also great against empty the warrens and thopters. I like it as a 1 of to find with Dig Through Time.

[AfroSmile]

Hey delverinhos,
here's my current 4c Delver version which I got finaly foiled (Exept for the 1 Delta, which is a flexible slot).

Hope you like it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=897316#post897316

Hahha, really nice! I'm on the same way than you. Only miss 2 Tarmogoyf (Future Sight), I have the modern master ones and the polluted delta playset (I play the manabase with badlands).

[laserstone]

Mini-report: many mistakes were made but I ran hot and managed 3-1.

Round 1: UG infect: won game 1 off lightning bolts and wastelands. Lost g2 to a t2 kill. G3 was grindy, with a Jitte on his side but no creatures for a long time. I was in a solid spot but made a critical mistake. It's too shameful to talk about. Let's just say I punted this game hard.

Round 2: UrzaTron: g1, early delver, blind flip t2 into double wasteland on his tron lands, dug and cantripped into 3 FoW + 3 blue card for his bombs and killed him with delver and goyf. G2 t1 chalice on 1 kills me. G3 DRS into a very large goyf makes short work of him, while I draw the perfect card to answer each of his threats each turn.
PS: This guy was the saltiest opponent I've ever played.

Round 3: Jund nic fit: I draw all 4 of my wastelands g1. g2 he plays therapy into explorer but punts by not flashing it back, and DRS eats the therapy. He gets land screwed and I win.

Round 4: Sneak show: he gets there g1 after I screw up and keep an awful hand with a DRS and force/dig but no other gas. I punt by playing delver instead of holding it for FoW. g2 I keep a 1-lander with DRS and a lot of counters. I don't see another land but counters + delver + wasteland gets there. g3 is the same as g2.

My meta is horribly inbred, and I'm afraid it's not the best place for delver to thrive (3 MUD, 1 enchantress, 2 nic fit, 2 maverick yesterday) but the deck seems good and it's a lot of fun.

[ironclad8690]

My meta is horribly inbred, and I'm afraid it's not the best place for delver to thrive (3 MUD, 1 enchantress, 2 nic fit, 2 maverick yesterday) but the deck seems good and it's a lot of fun.

If you have the resources Belcher or Oops all spells would dominate your meta.

[laserstone]

If you have the resources Belcher or Oops all spells would dominate your meta.

We get 18-20 people each event, and the other 10 are solidly blue. Chances are, I'd go between 2-2 and 0-4. Three months ago, when the entire store was playing Death and Taxes, I'd have agreed with you :)

[Lormador]

I had a great tournament down at the LGS, 26 players. Mini-report.

Round 1 (Merfolk) 2-1

Great opponent, he seemed to know what to play around at all times. He almost got me. G1 he mulled to 5 and I start with a DRS. He got land and started playing things ( into 2 Daze). I flooded out a little despite cantripping, but he kept playing lands and, eventually, TNN. I was out of Dazes at this point but got a Delver going, so we were off to the races. The land flood paid off when I hardcast Force of Will to get rid of a Phantasmal Image, but he had a second. I built up my Lightning Bolt collection and found the last one just in time.

G2: Kept 1 land with Brainstorm, Cursecatcher foiled it. Chalice of the Void came down and I didn't get mana to deal with it quickly. I discarded Ancient Grudge to hand size, but it got Dazed. On to game 3.

G3: First DRS, double Delver. He countered the Brainstorm that would have flipped both but they flipped naturally anyway. He still got me into a tight race with some big fish, but Delvers took away most of his life. A bolt and a drain finished the job.

Round 2: UG Cloudpost 1-1

This guy always used to beat me last year. I was out for revenge, but we ran out of time on game 3 (we both had slow hands). Game 2 was a very close thing. I could probably have won if I had used Pyroblasts more aggressively to fill my graveyard and drain him, but I was fearful to waste them on something that wasn't Show and Tell. He eventually used Candelabra and Cavern to put in a Primeval Titan gained a bunch of life, and that was that. Damned if I did, damned if I didn't.

Round 3: Junk 2-0

This guy had an interesting deck with Sinkhole, Vindicate, Goyf, and the usual suspects. G1 I got a Deathrite through his barrage of hand disruption spells, got into a race with a 4/5 Goyf and Dark Confidant, and won that race on the back of a few drains, Delver, and a pair of Lightning Bolts. In the second game, he Abrupt Decayed my first Sylvan Library but didn't have an answer to the second. His deck stalled on lands while the library started putting out 2 cards each turn.

Round 4: DnT 2-0

I Forced an Aether Vial on T1 (losing the roll), and it turned out that my opponent had kept a 1 land hand. Daze kept the scary stuff away until I could get a TNN. There was a race with a Spirit of the Labyrinth until Lightning Bolt and an unflipped Delver chump block sealed the deal. Game 2 I faced double Vials, Thalia, and Flickerwisp with 4 lands and a hand of Brainstorm + fetch. Brainstorm found the 1-of Forked Bolt and I was back in the game. DRS and cards that did things followed.

Round 5: Enchantress 2-0

In game 1, triple Daze really inconvenienced my opponent while Delver attacked him. He lost an Enchantress' Presence and GSZ X=4 to the Dazes. After that it was took late. I boarded out the Dazes for game 2 and he carefully played around them. Force killed one GSZ X=2. He landed an Enchantress (Pierce paid for) and Elephant Grass, but by then it was too late. Delvers and drains would kill him before he could untap with this stuff to use it, and that was the match,

Props: Sylvan Library, Forked Bolt and True-Name Nemesis. No one wants to get into an attrition war against an active Library, and it was also great against the control deck that didn't care about my life total. Forked Bolt turned a loss into a win nearly by itself, and TNN put me in races that I won against decks that could have blocked / swung through Goofy.

Slops: I kept a couple of one-land hands today, and this could have gone badly. I should work on my mulligan skills.

Overall, I certainly can't complain, I did a lot of winning in this tournament. It was a blast. I'd forgotten to switch out one of the TNNs for a Tasigur like I'd planned, but it worked out. I faced a Karakas deck, so perhaps it was for the best.

[Manipulato]

I had a great tournament down at the LGS, 26 players. Mini-report.

Round 1 (Merfolk) 2-1

Great opponent, he seemed to know what to play around at all times. He almost got me. G1 he mulled to 5 and I start with a DRS. He got land and started playing things ( into 2 Daze). I flooded out a little despite cantripping, but he kept playing lands and, eventually, TNN. I was out of Dazes at this point but got a Delver going, so we were off to the races. The land flood paid off when I hardcast Force of Will to get rid of a Phantasmal Image, but he had a second. I built up my Lightning Bolt collection and found the last one just in time.

G2: Kept 1 land with Brainstorm, Cursecatcher foiled it. Chalice of the Void came down and I didn't get mana to deal with it quickly. I discarded Ancient Grudge to hand size, but it got Dazed. On to game 3.

G3: First DRS, double Delver. He countered the Brainstorm that would have flipped both but they flipped naturally anyway. He still got me into a tight race with some big fish, but Delvers took away most of his life. A bolt and a drain finished the job.

Round 2: UG Cloudpost 1-1

This guy always used to beat me last year. I was out for revenge, but we ran out of time on game 3 (we both had slow hands). Game 2 was a very close thing. I could probably have won if I had used Pyroblasts more aggressively to fill my graveyard and drain him, but I was fearful to waste them on something that wasn't Show and Tell. He eventually used Candelabra and Cavern to put in a Primeval Titan gained a bunch of life, and that was that. Damned if I did, damned if I didn't.

Round 3: Junk 2-0

This guy had an interesting deck with Sinkhole, Vindicate, Goyf, and the usual suspects. G1 I got a Deathrite through his barrage of hand disruption spells, got into a race with a 4/5 Goyf and Dark Confidant, and won that race on the back of a few drains, Delver, and a pair of Lightning Bolts. In the second game, he Abrupt Decayed my first Sylvan Library but didn't have an answer to the second. His deck stalled on lands while the library started putting out 2 cards each turn.

Round 4: DnT 2-0

I Forced an Aether Vial on T1 (losing the roll), and it turned out that my opponent had kept a 1 land hand. Daze kept the scary stuff away until I could get a TNN. There was a race with a Spirit of the Labyrinth until Lightning Bolt and an unflipped Delver chump block sealed the deal. Game 2 I faced double Vials, Thalia, and Flickerwisp with 4 lands and a hand of Brainstorm + fetch. Brainstorm found the 1-of Forked Bolt and I was back in the game. DRS and cards that did things followed.

Round 5: Enchantress 2-0

In game 1, triple Daze really inconvenienced my opponent while Delver attacked him. He lost an Enchantress' Presence and GSZ X=4 to the Dazes. After that it was took late. I boarded out the Dazes for game 2 and he carefully played around them. Force killed one GSZ X=2. He landed an Enchantress (Pierce paid for) and Elephant Grass, but by then it was too late. Delvers and drains would kill him before he could untap with this stuff to use it, and that was the match,

Props: Sylvan Library, Forked Bolt and True-Name Nemesis. No one wants to get into an attrition war against an active Library, and it was also great against the control deck that didn't care about my life total. Forked Bolt turned a loss into a win nearly by itself, and TNN put me in races that I won against decks that could have blocked / swung through Goofy.

Slops: I kept a couple of one-land hands today, and this could have gone badly. I should work on my mulligan skills.

Overall, I certainly can't complain, I did a lot of winning in this tournament. It was a blast. I'd forgotten to switch out one of the TNNs for a Tasigur like I'd planned, but it worked out. I faced a Karakas deck, so perhaps it was for the best.

Gratz! Decklist?

[Lormador]

I worked for weeks tweaking a Grixis Delver list, and I had it working pretty well... then I tried Petr Sochurek's 6th place GP list and it was just a lot better. TNN is the army I have, so the switch of Goyf for these was made. That's what I played. There's only one other change I'd like to make to the list to fit my own personal taste (switching out one TNN for a Tasigur), but I forgot to make this change for the event.

I think the decks that run TNN instead of Goofy should take a hard look at Tasigur and the zombie fish, the tempo mirrors have been pretty rough without them. RUG was wrecking me before I put in a Tasigur.

[Manipulato]

# Goddik & Einherjer: Any new results or interesting points about 4c Delver or 4c Midrange?

[Goddik]

Not playing alot of magic at the moment, so no new developments.

Will be happy to provide advice on
-Build
-Matchups
-Sideboarding

Let me know if there is something specific you would like. I have fairly detailed thoughts on most of these.

[Manipulato]

Not playing alot of magic at the moment, so no new developments.

Will be happy to provide advice on
-Build
-Matchups
-Sideboarding

Let me know if there is something specific you would like. I have fairly detailed thoughts on most of these.

I thought about this 4c Midrange list (Without Delvers) because I want a better game against Miracles & Goyf/TNN does not die to bolts which are heavily played at the moment.
Sadly I had no chance to test it...What do you think? I´m not sure about the manabase, especially about the number of the wastelands...

Maindeck: 60 Cards

12 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

29 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dread of Night
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library

[Goddik]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta

2 Envelop
1 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam

Here is my current list. The two loams are flex slots that need to do something in grindy matchups.

I think the differences in the maindeck are almost self-explanatory. The two wastelands are certainly defensible. I tend to board my wastelands out anyways.

A few notes on our sideboards
-gg charm versus toxic deluge. Toxic Deluge is much much more versatile. -2 is much better than -1. If i could play 4 i would instantly cut my gg charms. Tey are simply much better against any matchup that plays stoneforge mystic or deathrite shaman. I originally started playing it when i noticed that i kept loosing games to stoneblade decks on board states where they had a shaman and a stoneforge mystic. With toxic you can often survive a landed batterskull. I have often considered cutting the gg-charms for massacres, but as long as pyromancer is around i guess i will keep them.
- my sideboard is more focused. This is generally a result of playing Jace, which on the 1 hand allow me to grind out nearly every midrange matchup, but on the other hand also requires you to have relevant cards in your deck to allow you to brainstorm to victory. I therefore try to avoid narrow cards like dread of night. If you are not running jace this is more defensible
-Pithing needle and null rod: These i had originally, but have gradually started to cut as the jaces + digs allowed me to murder miracles easily without them. If you are not on the jace plan then these hold alot of value against dnt and miracles and i can certainly get behind them. Do you really need these 2 + ancient grudge?
-Gravyard hate: I am not a fan. The cards i want to hate on are life from the loam and dig through time. Neither can really be easily hated on with the gravyard hate available to us. Nemesis is way better against loam anyways
-Anti spell cards: here i would really consider envelops. They are generally amazing against all kinds of combo and miracles, and are even excellent against elves.

[Goddik]

The tarmogoyfs are btw. amazing against grixis and rug. They singlehandedly turn those matchups around, by letting you put on some sustainable preassure, as compared to the delvers which tend to die instantly.

[Manipulato]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta

2 Envelop
1 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam

Here is my current list. The two loams are flex slots that need to do something in grindy matchups.

I think the differences in the maindeck are almost self-explanatory. The two wastelands are certainly defensible. I tend to board my wastelands out anyways.

A few notes on our sideboards
-gg charm versus toxic deluge. Toxic Deluge is much much more versatile. -2 is much better than -1. If i could play 4 i would instantly cut my gg charms. Tey are simply much better against any matchup that plays stoneforge mystic or deathrite shaman. I originally started playing it when i noticed that i kept loosing games to stoneblade decks on board states where they had a shaman and a stoneforge mystic. With toxic you can often survive a landed batterskull. I have often considered cutting the gg-charms for massacres, but as long as pyromancer is around i guess i will keep them.
- my sideboard is more focused. This is generally a result of playing Jace, which on the 1 hand allow me to grind out nearly every midrange matchup, but on the other hand also requires you to have relevant cards in your deck to allow you to brainstorm to victory. I therefore try to avoid narrow cards like dread of night. If you are not running jace this is more defensible
-Pithing needle and null rod: These i had originally, but have gradually started to cut as the jaces + digs allowed me to murder miracles easily without them. If you are not on the jace plan then these hold alot of value against dnt and miracles and i can certainly get behind them. Do you really need these 2 + ancient grudge?
-Gravyard hate: I am not a fan. The cards i want to hate on are life from the loam and dig through time. Neither can really be easily hated on with the gravyard hate available to us. Nemesis is way better against loam anyways
-Anti spell cards: here i would really consider envelops. They are generally amazing against all kinds of combo and miracles, and are even excellent against elves.

Thx for the detailed answer! Here are my thought´s & experience´s:

- I really found Toxic Deluge way to clunky in a delver deck, sure we would not play delver anymore but on 2 we kill everything exept for Goyf (Including our own TNN) which I found to be suboptimal. Especially against DnT I was never able to cast this thing...I find Golgari Charm superior to TD because it has 3 good modes. Destroying a Library, CB, regenare a creature to AD, Bolt + instant speed is really really sweet. I think 2 Chram + 2 Deluge are really a overkill.

- I tried Envelop because I thought it is really great against Elves & Miracles, but at the end of the day I was always wishing it was a Pierce/Flusterstorm because I played not against those 2 decks and it was really bad against everything else... I think its a really specific kind of narrow card...I like having flexible cards like Pierce/Flusterstorm or Charm...Maybe we have different phylosophies here :smile:

- Jace is great against all these BGx MU or Miracles but currently I´m really afraid of opposin Pyroblast which are everywhere...And he´s not thaaat great against YP or Mentor token...Especially Mentor is heavily played in germany and I will not bring in Deluge to handle those...But ok he´s worth a slot...

- The Grafdiggers Cage can pe replaced for sure, I never boarded it in, not even in 9 Rounds of legacy in Lille. But I really liked the Nihil Spellbomb because it shuts down Loam, P. Fire, slows down opposing DTT, shrinks Mongeese etc...

- I really like your plan of cutting delver because its the weakest creature in the deck and a bad lategame card. Especially because it die´s to EVERYTHING...Goyf + TNN are just panzer which roll over the opponent and are difficult to handle in this Bolt/Blast meta...

[jedi_gof]

Nice list Goodstuff Goddik :-)

One question though : is the 62 cards intentional? :-)
Which cards are represented in too large a quantity

[Jonathan Alexander]

Played this list in the Jelly Jam and couple local tournaments:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster mage
3 Tarmogoyf

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce

2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

4 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Dread of Night
2 Dismember
1 Electrickery
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
3 Pyroblast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The deck in general feels nice but I hate 16+3 lands. 3 copies of Wasteland seems correct, but in no way is it necessary to play this many lands. The deck feels a little light against combo but is alright otherwise.

[ironclad8690]

Anyone testing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Some guy is doing well on modo with him and after eternal weekend I am curious to test, but $60 on standard cards doesnt sound fun.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Seems good. I'd give it a try if I were you. Looter effects have historically been strong in tempo lists, and his other effects are mostly relevant.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[AfroSmile]

Anyone testing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Some guy is doing well on modo with him and after eternal weekend I am curious to test, but $60 on standard cards doesnt sound fun.

Yeah, I was asking myself the same question. What does it really bring to deck?
The list remove a land and a dig for 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. And the sideboard choice seems weird to me.

Kolaghan's Command is cool but ma be hard to cast in matchup like death&taxes.
Scavenging ooze is not too mana intensive for the deck?
Grafdigger's Cage and playing snapcaster mage + 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy aren't a good synergies. In some matchup, you may want both. (Flash backing forked bolt or bolt in matchup like elves is really good.)

I need some explanation.

[Contract Killer]

Yeah, I was asking myself the same question. What does it really bring to deck?
The list remove a land and a dig for 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. And the sideboard choice seems weird to me.

Kolaghan's Command is cool but ma be hard to cast in matchup like death&taxes.
Scavenging ooze is not too mana intensive for the deck?
Grafdigger's Cage and playing snapcaster mage + 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy aren't a good synergies. In some matchup, you may want both. (Flash backing forked bolt or bolt in matchup like elves is really good.)

I need some explanation.

I've been looking at the list and thinking about trying it out myself with some minor changes. I think not playing 4 wastes is hypocritical when you're playing daze. Like why are you bothering playing that type of deck when it needs 4 of each of those cards to operate well. I'm 100% certain the playing the 4th waste over the 9th fetch is better.

The advantage to jace in it is that it's a snapcaster for 2 mana so long as it tables. Which is really good since snapcaster despite being what tempo decks want is mana intensive anyway you look at it with it being effectively 3cmc. The nice part about jace that I don't think many people have noticed yet is his -3 is not strictly flashback.

This is marginal but it does let you cast force from the bin for it's alternate cost. I haven't played this deck (I play rug delver), but that seems extremely helpful by allowing you to sequence your threats such that jace -> table -> flip activate -3 to allow you to play out another threat with force back up from the bin.

As for his sideboard I think it's fine. The scooze is a bit slow, but it's the 4th goyf with an up side in most match ups where you want it. The cages I'm pretty sure are just for actual graveyard hate match ups. They're good vs elves too, but I don't think that's what he was packing them for. That aside even vs elves I'm pretty sure I would board the following:
- 2 pierce, - 4 daze // + 2 cage, + 2 charm, + command, forked bolt

The main reason why I came over to this thread was to see what people thought of this list. I'm thinking about picking up some of the jaces next chance I get. The list seems really solid. The new jace I think is a more flexible snapcaster and a better fit for tempo decks that have been trying to jam snap. It's less mana intensive and has some interesting upsides with force or submerge. In addition to that despite him having to table with 4 deathrite, and 4 delver they only have so much removal and jace is just a 2 of so I don't think his body is that big of a problem.

[Griselpuff]

Surprised it's taken this long for this deck to enter DTB. I like this deck even more than I liked UR Delver. It's a really midrangey deck that also has explosive UR Delver like draws. Noah created a monster

[iostream]

Surprised it's taken this long for this deck to enter DTB. I like this deck even more than I liked UR Delver. It's a really midrangey deck that also has explosive UR Delver like draws. Noah created a monsterGreat job at Legacy Champs! Just wondering: what's your opinion about the list you played versus the European-style lists that are more like "BUG Delver with Bolts"? I've wondered if the extra greed is worthwhile.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Surprised it's taken this long for this deck to enter DTB. I like this deck even more than I liked UR Delver. It's a really midrangey deck that also has explosive UR Delver like draws. Noah created a monster

I am also surprised Grixis Delver wasn't represented in some fashion in the DtB till now. However, isn't this the wrong thread for that deck? It seems like this thread it more for the full on 4C decks, which atm are basically BUG Delver with bolts and blasts. Not really a big deal, but it seems like it would be good for Grixis Delver to have its own thread.

[ironclad8690]

I am also surprised Grixis Delver wasn't represented in some fashion in the DtB till now. However, isn't this the wrong thread for that deck? It seems like this thread it more for the full on 4C decks, which atm are basically BUG Delver with bolts and blasts. Not really a big deal, but it seems like it would be good for Grixis Delver to have its own thread.

Tcdecks counts Grixis Delver as Grixis Pyromancer, which is the only reason "Thieves" is in DTB (it doesn't have near the kind of paper representation needed to be a DTB). Don't try to talk about Grixis Delver in the Thieves thread though, you will be shunned.

[Manipulato]

I am also surprised Grixis Delver wasn't represented in some fashion in the DtB till now. However, isn't this the wrong thread for that deck? It seems like this thread it more for the full on 4C decks, which atm are basically BUG Delver with bolts and blasts. Not really a big deal, but it seems like it would be good for Grixis Delver to have its own thread.

Yeah I have the same opinion...The bUrg Thread always was the 4c greedy Delver thread like the european lists with bolt, Goyf, DS, AD etc all in the MD...

I see Noah´s list as a Grixis deck with a tiny g splash in the sb...I dont like mixing those decks in one thread at all!

[jrsthethird]

Tcdecks counts Grixis Delver as Grixis Pyromancer, which is the only reason "Thieves" is in DTB (it doesn't have near the kind of paper representation needed to be a DTB). Don't try to talk about Grixis Delver in the Thieves thread though, you will be shunned.

Yeah, the Grixis decks that run Pyromancer are all grouped together, whether they are control or tempo. It's also possible that Grixis Delver decks with DRS can get grouped in with this one (bUrg/"4-color") if there is more incidental green splashing; Grudge or Decay is a start. Or, a Grixis Delver deck that eschews Pyromancer but keeps DRS with a Trop would be bUrg. Probably wouldn't Top 8, but this is what it would likely be categorized as.

Oh, and "Thieves" isn't even a thing anymore. Dack Fayden and Notion Thief are antiquated; the new tech is Pyromancer Ascension. But for more on that, go to the actual thread. There's a Grixis Tempo thread in the Established section for discussion.

[AfroSmile]

Yeah I have the same opinion...The bUrg Thread always was the 4c greedy Delver thread like the european lists with bolt, Goyf, DS, AD etc all in the MD...

I see Noah´s list as a Grixis deck with a tiny g splash in the sb...I dont like mixing those decks in one thread at all!

I have the same opinion too! They are not the same deck because we play a lot of important matchup with another approach because of main deck decay (and Tarmogoyf).
The Grixis Delver like Noah's decklist are posted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-Grixis-Tempo) and I think it must be in the DTB section too!

Actually I becoming really mad because people are confusing bUrg Delver and Grixis Tempo/Grixis Green (see this unknown old thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28368-Deck-DRS-Grixis-(Grixis-Green)&highlight=grixis+green)).

Grixis Green is not bUrg Delver because they don't play a lot of green spell! It's just a splash for Deathrite Shaman activation and sometimes for some sideboard cards. That's the point.
bUrg Delver really commit on green with Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Sylvan library, etc.
In addition, if you look the sideboard of bUrg Delver, the green color is really present (Golgari Charm, Maelstrom Pulse, Sylvan Library, Life from the loam, etc.)
And we can see a lot of incidence on the mana base! And tropical island is one of the most important color in the deck because every thread can be cast with it!

That's not the case with Grixis Green. Grixis Green see Tropical Island like an Island and it plays sometimes (or more often actually) some green spells in their sideboard like Abrupt Decay and Ancient Grudge and that's all! This difference brings so many differences in some matchup that we cannot consider them as the same deck.

If you want to speak about Grixis Delver =>
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-Grixis-Tempo
Old thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28368-Deck-DRS-Grixis-(Grixis-Green)&highlight=grixis+green

If you want to speak about Grixis Control =>
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28859-DTB-Grixis-Control-Thieves/page12

If you want to speak about bUrg Delver, the true 4c Delver =>
You are in the good place!

I explain the differences between the different popular delver deck on a french forum, maybe I'll do the work here later in the week.

P.S.: Sorry for the bad english. :-/

[Delvis]

+1 AfroSmile's post.

Also, taking into account that bUrg Delver and Grixis Green Delver are two discrete entities, the Grixis Green list is the DTB because that's the one making all the Top 8s and being played everywhere (I could have put on a blindfold and randomly pointed at a table at the Eternal Weekend Duel for Duals, and there would be a Grixis Delver player either at that table or next to it).

I'm not saying Grixis Green is necessarily the superior list (although I am playing it), but it is the list being played the most, and therefore the list people should be prepared to beat at any given event.

[ironclad8690]

I would not have created the new thread if I had known about the Grixis Green thread, so sorry for that! Partly my fault. I just saw that people were using the New and Developmental thread for all communication about Grixis Delver, so I thought I would try creating a primer in the Established section because it was putting up the results after Noah's consecutive victories.

Does anyone know how to talk to a mod about closing threads/updating the names? I'm sure that we can have a great extensive primer on the deck once we get these similar threads cleaned up.

[AfroSmile]

I would not have created the new thread if I had known about the Grixis Green thread, so sorry for that! Partly my fault. I just saw that people were using the New and Developmental thread for all communication about Grixis Delver, so I thought I would try creating a primer in the Established section because it was putting up the results after Noah's consecutive victories.

Does anyone know how to talk to a mod about closing threads/updating the names? I'm sure that we can have a great extensive primer on the deck once we get these similar threads cleaned up.

I think it's fine because the thread didn't have some activity and actually there is a third thread about grixis delver:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29871-Deck-Grixis-Delver&p=901936#post901936
The other two:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-Grixis-Tempo
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28368-Deck-DRS-Grixis-(Grixis-Green)
It would be nice to merge all information of all this threads because each one brings some complement to the others.

Now stop talking about Grixis Green Delver or Grixis Delver. Here, we talk about the best tempo deck: bUrg Delver! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[AfroSmile]

I play this list actually.


4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

-- Sideboard --
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ventilions Clique
1 Nihil's Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle


I have a +50 tournament where the meta contains a wide variety of deck and there is no major deck type. So I have to be really versatile with the main deck and sideboard choice.
There is some good Jund/Junk players and I really fear this matchup (with the Shardless BUG or other midrange deck). Do you have any good advices, strategies and sideboard plan for the Jund matchup? Junk/Aggro Loam matchup?

I think we must go full tempo because we loose the late game against decks that play lot 2-1 cards like Liliana, Hymn, Punishing Fire and so on.
Against Jund, I side something like:
+1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Submerge, +1 Surgical Extraction (for Punishing), +1 Pithing Needle (for Liliana or Scavenging Ooze)
On the play: -3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
On the draw: -2 Force of Will, -2 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
Is it fine? Do I have to enter Clique to have a better creature density?

What is our plan against Lands and sideboard plan?
Do I have to go with the 2 Tarmogoyf + 2 True-name Nemesis split?

I think I might be ok with my actual sideboard plan and game plan, but I want to know if anybody have some suggestions, good ideas or plans to improve my way to play these match-ups.

[Manipulato]

I play this list actually.


I have a +50 tournament where the meta contains a wide variety of deck and there is no major deck type. So I have to be really versatile with the main deck and sideboard choice.
There is some good Jund/Junk players and I really fear this matchup (with the Shardless BUG or other midrange deck). Do you have any good advices, strategies and sideboard plan for the Jund matchup? Junk/Aggro Loam matchup?

I think we must go full tempo because we loose the late game against decks that play lot 2-1 cards like Liliana, Hymn, Punishing Fire and so on.
Against Jund, I side something like:
+1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Submerge, +1 Surgical Extraction (for Punishing), +1 Pithing Needle (for Liliana or Scavenging Ooze)
On the draw: -3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
On the play: -2 Force of Will, -2 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
Is it fine? Do I have to enter Clique to have a better creature density?

What is our plan against Lands and sideboard plan?
Do I have to go with the 2 Tarmogoyf + 2 True-name Nemesis split?

I think I might be ok with my actual sideboard plan and game plan, but I want to know if anybody have some suggestions, good ideas or plans to improve my way to play these match-ups.


Hi,
I personally side out all 4 FoW no matter if I´m otp or otd against BGx decks like Jund/Junk because the game will go longer and it´s just a material war. They 2 for 1 you with Hymn, Bloodbraid Elf, Lili etc. and the FoW makes the cardadvantage even worse for you, 2-for-1ing ourselves is not the way to go. You dont have to be that scared with this type of delver because 3 DTT & Library are just great tools for the longer game...
You can FoW a removal spell for 1 turn and get 1 attack step but Jund/Junk is so full of removal spells and then they kill it next turn so that you only buy maybe 1 turn which is a tempo play but not good enough to win this type of game in my opinion.
I´m also not a huge fan of pierce in this MU, sure its good at countering discard, Lili, Pulse etc. but most of the time we´re taped out...T1 we have 12 plays (DS, Delver, Ponder) and T2 Goyf/AD/Library or a combination of cantrip+removal/creature...

So I would board like this:
- 4 FoW
- 3 Pierce (maybe otd -1/2 Daze instad of the Pierce...)

+ 1 Forked Bolt (Kills Bob, DS & Lili)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fire, maybe Wasteland etc...)
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse (Allround Removal for Goyf, Lili, Library...)
+ 2 Submerge (0 mana removal + gain tempo, steal them a draw step)
+ 1 Pithing Needle (Lili, SOoze)
+ 1 Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique (Charm is good against Library, killing Bob, "Counter" a removal Spell/ Clique can kill Lili, just another thread)

I´m also not sure about your manabase though...7 fetches and the badland? mh...I personally play 1 Taiga over the Badland and -1 Wasteland -1 Tropical for a the 8th + 9th fetch...You play more g spells than b MD...
The Badland is reasonable in a list with MD Thoughtseize or in the TNN/TS list from Goddik even if I would not play any nonblue dual in a 3 TNN 3 DTT list.

[AfroSmile]

Hi,
I personally side out all 4 FoW no matter if I´m otp or otd against BGx decks like Jund/Junk because the game will go longer and it´s just a material war. They 2 for 1 you with Hymn, Bloodbraid Elf, Lili etc. and the FoW makes the cardadvantage even worse for you, 2-for-1ing ourselves is not the way to go. You dont have to be that scared with this type of delver because 3 DTT & Library are just great tools for the longer game...
You can FoW a removal spell for 1 turn and get 1 attack step but Jund/Junk is so full of removal spells and then they kill it next turn so that you only buy maybe 1 turn which is a tempo play but not good enough to win this type of game in my opinion.
I´m also not a huge fan of pierce in this MU, sure its good at countering discard, Lili, Pulse etc. but most of the time we´re taped out...T1 we have 12 plays (DS, Delver, Ponder) and T2 Goyf/AD/Library or a combination of cantrip+removal/creature...

So I would board like this:
- 4 FoW
- 3 Pierce (maybe otd -1/2 Daze instad of the Pierce...)

+ 1 Forked Bolt (Kills Bob, DS & Lili)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fire, maybe Wasteland etc...)
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse (Allround Removal for Goyf, Lili, Library...)
+ 2 Submerge (0 mana removal + gain tempo, steal them a draw step)
+ 1 Pithing Needle (Lili, SOoze)
+ 1 Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique (Charm is good against Library, killing Bob, "Counter" a removal Spell/ Clique can kill Lili, just another thread)

I´m also not sure about your manabase though...7 fetches and the badland? mh...I personally play 1 Taiga over the Badland and -1 Wasteland -1 Tropical for a the 8th + 9th fetch...You play more g spells than b MD...
The Badland is reasonable in a list with MD Thoughtseize or in the TNN/TS list from Goddik even if I would not play any nonblue dual in a 3 TNN 3 DTT list.

First of all, thank you for sharing your opinion. I want to discuss some point because it's really interesting.

First, I dislike side out all my FoW against them. While it's true that 2-for-1 ourselves is really bad, it can stop some key spell like Liliana that 2-for-1 us anyway. I prefer to FoW a Liliana than loose a creature and decay/bolt her. (I think Bolt/Decay have better target like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf)
In addition, you can hardcast FoW or pitch an useless daze or spell pierce in late game. For this reasons I think keeping 1 is ok.
It's the same for Spell Pierce. In a lot of situation, I prefer to have Spell Pierce over Daze. In early game, you don't have any tempo loss with pierce and you can counter or delay some key spell like Liliana, Toxic Deluge, Sylvan Library/Top, Choke, etc. For this reasons, I keep 2 Spell Pierce.
Daze is free and counter creatures too, but a good player will play around it with ease and it becomes useless in late game. In early game, you can loose tempo if played too early. So I think it's important to have both Spell Pierce and Daze post-side.

I must thank you for the Forked Bolt tips! It's true that it can kill: Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, Scavenging Ooze and in some situation you can get Goyf or Tasigur. :-)
For Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique, I prefer Clique because we may need more creatures post sides because they have more anti-creatures cards too.

Then I think my manabase is fine. The badlands is really great in a lot of situation and it's really hard to cut me a color because I have 3 sources of each color except of blue which are 6. It may be a problem if I want to do an early Dig because I don't play a lot of fetches but it's often Ok. If I would change something in the mana base, it would be -1 Wasteland +1 Scalding Tarn.
For Taiga vs Badlands, I played for a long time Taiga, then I tried Badlands and I actually prefer it over Taiga. Generally, you go for Tropical Island first with this mana base and then go for what you need. In my experience, it's really fine and you avoid some situation in late game where you don't have any tropical or red/black source in the deck because of wasteland.

Finally, thank you for sharing! It's really helpful to oppose ideas and strategy so we can try and develop new strategy, play and sideboard guide.

Next! :D
Do you have any advice for other midrange deck like Junk and Shardless BUG? And for the Lands and Storm match-up?

[Manipulato]

First of all, thank you for sharing your opinion. I want to discuss some point because it's really interesting.

First, I dislike side out all my FoW against them. While it's true that 2-for-1 ourselves is really bad, it can stop some key spell like Liliana that 2-for-1 us anyway. I prefer to FoW a Liliana than loose a creature and decay/bolt her. (I think Bolt/Decay have better target like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf)
In addition, you can hardcast FoW or pitch an useless daze or spell pierce in late game. For this reasons I think keeping 1 is ok.
It's the same for Spell Pierce. In a lot of situation, I prefer to have Spell Pierce over Daze. In early game, you don't have any tempo loss with pierce and you can counter or delay some key spell like Liliana, Toxic Deluge, Sylvan Library/Top, Choke, etc. For this reasons, I keep 2 Spell Pierce.
Daze is free and counter creatures too, but a good player will play around it with ease and it becomes useless in late game. In early game, you can loose tempo if played too early. So I think it's important to have both Spell Pierce and Daze post-side.

I must thank you for the Forked Bolt tips! It's true that it can kill: Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, Scavenging Ooze and in some situation you can get Goyf or Tasigur. :-)
For Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique, I prefer Clique because we may need more creatures post sides because they have more anti-creatures cards too.

Then I think my manabase is fine. The badlands is really great in a lot of situation and it's really hard to cut me a color because I have 3 sources of each color except of blue which are 6. It may be a problem if I want to do an early Dig because I don't play a lot of fetches but it's often Ok. If I would change something in the mana base, it would be -1 Wasteland +1 Scalding Tarn.
For Taiga vs Badlands, I played for a long time Taiga, then I tried Badlands and I actually prefer it over Taiga. Generally, you go for Tropical Island first with this mana base and then go for what you need. In my experience, it's really fine and you avoid some situation in late game where you don't have any tropical or red/black source in the deck because of wasteland.

Finally, thank you for sharing! It's really helpful to oppose ideas and strategy so we can try and develop new strategy, play and sideboard guide.

Next! :D
Do you have any advice for other midrange deck like Junk and Shardless BUG? And for the Lands and Storm match-up?

Pierce is not a must-cut-card after G1 for sure, there are arguements for leaving pierce in, no question. It depends on the amount of cards you can bring in G2/G3 and Otd Otp...You can cut 1/2 Daze Otd too but even Otd I would leave in minimum 2 because they´re still a 0 mana counter and good in the first three turn or so, especially with Wasteland + alot of opponents will not play around it esecially Otd because they think you boarded it out, so it has a suprise effect too.

I played alot against BGx decks in the last 2 years and the -4 FoW tactic was very good till now, I mean its very unlikely that you still have FoW in hand when they attack you with Thoughtseize, Inquisition & Hymn in the early turns...But ok it was just an personal adivce...

I would really cut the 4th Wasteland or 1 Tropical for +1 fetch, we play 4 DS, 4 Goyf, 3DTT, so we´re really GY based deck and 4c is still sometimes unconsistent, casting your spells is the way to victory and I never missed the 4th Wasteland that much to be honest.

I treat Shardless BUG & Junk the same way like Jund, they´re all BGx decks, execpt that I would not bring in Surgicals because they have no Punishing Fire...
Forked Bolt will not kill Ooze, thats quite unrealistic but its good against DS, Bob, Bloodbraid, eventually Rabblemaster & Lili, so good enough...


Burn is obvious bad against lands, so you can cut 4 bolts, AD is not the best card but it can destroy Mox Diamond or an early Manabond, Exploration...Bring in everything which can handle Loam, Punishing Fire, lands in general and they´re Stage/DD Combo...Needle, Surgical, Spellbomb anything which makes something better than a MD card would...FoW has to be in because you can shut down those explosive starts with manabond/Exploration, Pierce is also not useless because of that fact, sometimes you can pierce even a loam and let them stumble for 1 turn...

Against Storm I would bring in all Pyroblasts, Surgicals, Spellbombs, TS, FLusterstorms, Null Rods which you have. AD can get the axe for sure, I would probably leave in 2 bolts or cut all 4 bolts but bring in 2 Golgari Charm because of YP SB tech/Goblin token/Xantid Swarm...

Greetings

[Manipulato]

Hel guys,
went 4:1 today at my locals with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time

1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

Round 1: Mentor Miracles -> Won 2:0

Round 2: BW Deadguy -> Lost 0:2

Round 3: Esper Deathblade -> Won 2:1

Round 4: Burn -> Won 2:1

Round 5: ANT -> Won 2:1

The manabase today was solid and the 4th Wasteland was good at screwing my opponent. I'm still not sure about the 3rd Tropical over the 1off Taiga or 9th fetch though.

The 3rd AD & the additional Needle were planed for the Miracles MU and were amazing against them.

Library won the match against Deathblade on its own, totaly worth it MD.

Currently I play Surgical over Spellbomb because I want to shut off Loam & P. Fire completly (Lands & Aggro Loam).

[CantDecide]

Hey guys, I'm playing this as my side-deck (specifically the lesser splash of green for drs and sb options, list here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bugr-delver-2/) and was wondering if their was any funky sb options versus miracles and delver decks which help versus these that they may not be expecting (something like "jeleva, scourge of nephalia" which i used in grixis pyromancer)

[Manipulato]

Hey guys, I'm playing this as my side-deck (specifically the lesser splash of green for drs and sb options, list here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bugr-delver-2/) and was wondering if their was any funky sb options versus miracles and delver decks which help versus these that they may not be expecting (something like "jeleva, scourge of nephalia" which i used in grixis pyromancer)

I think this is your thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-DTB-Grixis-Tempo/page4

[CantDecide]

I think this is your thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-DTB-Grixis-Tempo/page4

I disagree, the difference between the decks on here and mine is I lack goyf, compared to those decks that have a trop just for drs.

[ironclad8690]

I disagree, the difference between the decks on here and mine is I lack goyf, compared to those decks that have a trop just for drs.

The BURG delver thread (this one) is for 4 color versions that play Goyf and Abrupt Decay maindeck. The Grixis Tempo thread is for decks with Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe, and a green splash for DRS.

[CantDecide]

The BURG delver thread (this one) is for 4 color versions that play Goyf and Abrupt Decay maindeck. The Grixis Tempo thread is for decks with Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe, and a green splash for DRS.

Well my question is quite irrelevant to the amount of green in my deck, so could i still get an answer?

[ironclad8690]

Well my question is quite irrelevant to the amount of green in my deck, so could i still get an answer?

Winter Orb and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are pretty fringe and do a number on Miracles.

Miracles and Delver only really overlap in that they are both blue and both feature countermagic, so you can try to add more Abrupt Decays, Pyroblasts, and Vendilion Clique, but I don't know if there is anything super off the way that I would recommend against both.

Hope that helps!

Played in a DE today:

Sylvan Plug: 0-2

MUD Post: 2-0

Reanimator: 2-0


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dig Through Time
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Life from the Loam
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge


Sylvan Plug Choked me 2 times game 1, and I just basically ran out of Abrupt Decays between that and Knight. Game 2 was a bit grindier, but I will say he was a bit lucky by naturally drawing his 1 of Maze of Iths both games very early while I was not able to find wastelands.

MUD post I got lucky and drew my bolts when I needed them against his metalworkers and countered the kudoltha forgemaster he tried to play. Wastelands kept him low on mana game 1. He never played a Chalice.

Reanimator guy just basically got mana screwed both games and I got active DRS turn 1 both games, so it was tough for him.

[CantDecide]

Winter Orb and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are pretty fringe and do a number on Miracles.

Miracles and Delver only really overlap in that they are both blue and both feature countermagic, so you can try to add more Abrupt Decays, Pyroblasts, and Vendilion Clique, but I don't know if there is anything super off the way that I would recommend against both.

Hope that helps!



Thanks, those sound awesome, but out of curiosity, what those ashiok do versus miracles? They have a very low creature count etc.

[jim111589]

Thanks, those sound awesome, but out of curiosity, what those ashiok do versus miracles? They have a very low creature count etc.
It's ment to mess up thier top activations by consistently changing (removing) thier top 3. It can also serve as a win con if you can manage to remove/deal with thier mentor/jace/Eta and just mill them.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[CantDecide]

It's ment to mess up thier top activations by consistently changing (removing) thier top 3. It can also serve as a win con if you can manage to remove/deal with thier mentor/jace/Eta and just mill them.


Oh my, dont know how i missed that :P thank you

[Lormador]

Ashiok is vulnerable to the red blasts, however, and for every Top activation that she messes up there's another she helps out with. She's such a narrow card as well, can she come in for any other matchup?

Winter Orb seems like a great idea, but it just didn't work out well for me in testing. I would start with 7 cards in the BURG hand, one of which was the Orb, against a normal Miracle draw and it didn't budge the win rate too much.

Thus, I think the broader and more general cards like an extra Sylvan Library, Null Rod, Pithing Needle are what to look for against Miracles... but I play the TS/TNN deck, so there's a natural resilience there already. StP and Snapcaster don't bother me too much.

[Manipulato]

Nice article about our deck...

http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-tempo-the-best-delver-deck-2

[AfroSmile]

Nice article about our deck...

http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-tempo-the-best-delver-deck-2

Nice article!

[TheKingslayer]

The goose is loose, ya'll.

[Manipulato]

The goose is loose, ya'll.

I would not say that this deck is dead! The deck existed long before DTT/TC! DTT was just an upgrade like for the Grixis archetype too, but I think DTT did more for the Grixis archetype than for 4c Delver.

Anyways, I will try this version. My thoughts were to replace DTT with Bobi´s.

Maindeck: 60 Cards

16 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

25 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

First I was thinking about returning back to my loved TA, but I just love Lightining Bolt in a delver deck :frown:

25 instant/sorcery´s to flip the delver are still fine (If we think about 20 in TA) & the blue count for FoW ist still at 23 (Just 20 in TA). So stabil points to work with.

We will see if the 4c manabase is worth the risk or if BUG is just better...Will test it...

[AfroSmile]

I would not say that this deck is dead! The deck existed long before DTT/TC! DTT was just an upgrade like for the Grixis archetype too, but I think DTT did more for the Grixis archetype than for 4c Delver.

Anyways, I will try this version. My thoughts were to replace DTT with Bobi´s.


I don't think it's the way to go but it is worth to give a try.

I think, i'll go back on the stifle build by replacing dig with stifle.
It might be good to consider Gurmag Angler or Tasigur instead of Goyf. We don't need our graveyard anymore and we can play a creature that can't be decayed, bolt or counter by counterbalance. He is bigger than Goyf usually and can be cast for 1.
1 or 2 Gurmag/Tasigur with 1 or 2 Goyf may be good.

[Manipulato]

I don't think it's the way to go but it is worth to give a try.

I think, i'll go back on the stifle build by replacing dig with stifle.
It might be good to consider Gurmag Angler or Tasigur instead of Goyf. We don't need our graveyard anymore and we can play a creature that can't be decayed, bolt or counter by counterbalance. He is bigger than Goyf usually and can be cast for 1.
1 or 2 Gurmag/Tasigur with 1 or 2 Goyf may be good.

This route is very reasonable for sure but my problem is that I just dont like stifle at all ;-)

[TheKingslayer]

This route is very reasonable for sure but my problem is that I just dont like stifle at all ;-)

Stifle is finally good again, and I personally feel it is an excellent tool not only in aggressively punishing opponent's mana, but in protecting our own greedy manabase as well too. It's also fantastic against miracles and a billion other cards. I'm back aboard.

[ironclad8690]

Here is what I have been testing in lieu of the ban:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fire Covenant


I have reverted to the oldschool BURG lists and am finding them very entertaining, I never did have a chance to play them back before Khans. I am working on finding a Taiga and a more stable set of fetchlands (need 2 more Mistys and 3 Tarns), but until then I am trying this out.

[Manipulato]

Yeah I think I will try this out, oldscool bUrg style...I made a 1/1 Split MD/SB with the Library to keeping up in the Mid-/Lategame against Miracles or other BGx MU´s..They´re just nuts.
The 2 Forked Bolt are also really great in difficult MU´s like DnT or Elves...I think the list is really solid as a starting point, we will see how it worked out for me in testing. Will let you guys know!

Maindeck: 60 Cards

12 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

30 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Sylvan Library

18 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

[ironclad8690]

Yeah I think I will try this out, oldscool bUrg style...I made a 1/1 Split MD/SB with the Library to keeping up in the Mid-/Lategame against Miracles or other BGx MU´s..They´re just nuts.
The 2 Forked Bolt are also really great in difficult MU´s like DnT or Elves...I think the list is really solid as a starting point, we will see how it worked out for me in testing. Will let you guys know!

Maindeck: 60 Cards

12 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

30 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Sylvan Library

18 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

I like your list, it is very clean and close to what I was used to playing before the ban. I might just say screw Nimble Mongoose and go with something like yours, and at least I wont have to play that damn singleton Taiga.

[TheKingslayer]

I like your list, it is very clean and close to what I was used to playing before the ban. I might just say screw Nimble Mongoose and go with something like yours, and at least I wont have to play that damn singleton Taiga.

Don't doubt the goose. Shroud makes the miracles matchup wayyy better, and there's something to say for every threat costing one. I'd also try Fire Covenant. It's insane. I've been playing the deck for a couple years, and I initially included goyf, but I found that he was dying very often. Also, playing defense to combo is way easier when threats all cost one.

P.s. Badlands is much better than Trop. You'll want an extra land for DRS, as the main priority is closing the game out.

[Manipulato]

Don't doubt the goose. Shroud makes the miracles matchup wayyy better, and there's something to say for every threat costing one. I'd also try Fire Covenant. It's insane. I've been playing the deck for a couple years, and I initially included goyf, but I found that he was dying very often. Also, playing defense to combo is way easier when threats all cost one.

P.s. Badlands is much better than Trop. You'll want an extra land for DRS, as the main priority is closing the game out.

Goose is of course good against Miracles & blade decks but I think the MU is still quite good because of the 4 Stifle & 2/3 Abrupt Decay.

8 one mana critters + the 4 Goyf is already solid to pressure combo, it's not like putting down a SFM or TNN...

I know the power of goose but with the years creatures became better & better and I think goose is a little bit outdated/slow/weak.

You can play him for sure but I personally go with this configuration or even with 2 Angler/TNN aß additional creatures. RUG is the only 100% home for him because they have no other viable/better options.

Maybe I have to cut the Library for a Badland, a 19th land is good for consistancy, you're probably right here.

[ironclad8690]

Don't doubt the goose. Shroud makes the miracles matchup wayyy better, and there's something to say for every threat costing one. I'd also try Fire Covenant. It's insane. I've been playing the deck for a couple years, and I initially included goyf, but I found that he was dying very often. Also, playing defense to combo is way easier when threats all cost one.

P.s. Badlands is much better than Trop. You'll want an extra land for DRS, as the main priority is closing the game out.

But, if you are playing a Badlands, wouldn't you want your other land in play to be Trop? That way you can cast everything.

[AfroSmile]

Goose is of course good against Miracles & blade decks but I think the MU is still quite good because of the 4 Stifle & 2/3 Abrupt Decay.

8 one mana critters + the 4 Goyf is already solid to pressure combo, it's not like putting down a SFM or TNN...

I know the power of goose but with the years creatures became better & better and I think goose is a little bit outdated/slow/weak.

You can play him for sure but I personally go with this configuration or even with 2 Angler/TNN aß additional creatures. RUG is the only 100% home for him because they have no other viable/better options.

Maybe I have to cut the Library for a Badland, a 19th land is good for consistancy, you're probably right here.

I'm totally agree with you.

Like I said I think the way to go is to go back to the old bUrg list with stifle.
I'm thinking about replacing Goyf for Gurmag Angler or maybe to make a split between 2/2 or maybe 2/1 + True Name-Nemis which is really good against the old meta.
We have to be prepared to a meta full of Miracle, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. The BGx archetype have now 3 new cards: Tasigur, Gurmag and Murderous Cut which are extremely good. If we play Gurmag we are safe from decay and that's really nice against Jund, BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, etc. The only answer is really mana intensive like liliana and Jace. Oh wait, we are back on the stifle place! :D

Between forked bolt is amazing! Like the one off sylvan and snapcaster mage in the main.
Another card that is amazing in sideboard is Maelstrom Pulse. It take care of so many cards. Try it!

[ironclad8690]

I'm totally agree with you.

Like I said I think the way to go is to go back to the old bUrg list with stifle.
I'm thinking about replacing Goyf for Gurmag Angler or maybe to make a split between 2/2 or maybe 2/1 + True Name-Nemis which is really good against the old meta.
We have to be prepared to a meta full of Miracle, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. The BGx archetype have now 3 new cards: Tasigur, Gurmag and Murderous Cut which are extremely good. If we play Gurmag we are safe from decay and that's really nice against Jund, BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, etc. The only answer is really mana intensive like liliana and Jace. Oh wait, we are back on the stifle place! :D

Between forked bolt is amazing! Like the one off sylvan and snapcaster mage in the main.
Another card that is amazing in sideboard is Maelstrom Pulse. It take care of so many cards. Try it!

The only thing I am worried about now is Rest in Peace coming back with a vengeance, and TNN is clearly the best vs that, with Goyf becoming worse but still fine if you destroy it and angler becoming basically uncastable if one resolved and the trigger is unstifled.

[Manipulato]

Nice play http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rugb-delver/testing by Jacob Wilson with bUrg Delver!

[Quasim0ff]

I rememberm, back in the day, you wanted to play a Taiga as Sea+Taiga would then cast all your spell (Including Decay and bolt). No other combination does that, unless you play Badlands (Which would increase reliance on Trop over Sea, I guess?)

[TheKingslayer]

I rememberm, back in the day, you wanted to play a Taiga as Sea+Taiga would then cast all your spell (Including Decay and bolt). No other combination does that, unless you play Badlands (Which would increase reliance on Trop over Sea, I guess?)

I ran Taiga for the longest time, and what I found to be more and more relevant was the need to leave blue mana up while using DRS, and I also found I needed a third land to activate DRS. I lost so many games because Taiga did almost nothing after casting a threat. Badlands is highly useful, and this is delver deck. There is a need to close the game out, and quickly. The only card you can't cast with trop and badlands is Fire Covenant, but it costs three. Usually you'll have a third land or a DRS, and it won't be a big problem (unless wasteland is your third land.) Trop also should be the first fetch as it is a blue source, can cast mongoose/goyf, and you will usually be too busy using your mana stifling and countering things the first couple two or three turns, before your board is developed and you start to consistently ping with DRS.

My mana base has been-
4 Tarn
4 Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Usea
2 Trop
1 Badland
1 Volcanic Island


Imagine this scenario,

-You have Usea, Taiga, and DRS in play, and you have a stifle in hand. It's the end of your turn.
-Your opponent has 4 lands and a non-summoning sick stoneforge mystic with a Batterskull in hand,
-your opponent is at 3.
-Your opponent EOT activates the mystic.
- You HAVE to play stifle on the mystic ability, as batterskull will quickly pull the game out of reach.
-by having a Taiga and USea, you have successfully prevented yourself from advancing the game and ending it before it comes out of reach. You're stranded with a DRS and a Taiga that practically missed an attack step. You've given your opponent another turn to find a STP, Jitte, Jace, and another turn to drop a Batterskull into play.

Do you want to miss attack steps with a delver deck?

[renanprezende]

Hey fellow bUrg players

Just won a Qualifier for the Legacy Nationals in November here in Brazil!!

Here's the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique


Only lost once to a dredge player, in round 5, and even with deathrite, he was too fast for the little elf, i lost 1-2. The other decks were much more manageable.

Won against R1: Reanimator (2-1), R2: Sneak and Show (2-1), R3:BUG Delver (2-0), R4:Elves (2-0), R6:Miracles (2-0), Top 8: RUG Delver (2-0), Top 4: Sneak and Show (2-0), Final: Esperblade (2-1)

This deck is so powerfull, even without sideboard. I won every first game of all matches, showing that the deck doesn't require the sideboard to win against any other deck!

[ironclad8690]

Hey fellow bUrg players

Just won a Qualifier for the Legacy Nationals in November here in Brazil!!

Here's the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique


Only lost once to a dredge player, in round 5, and even with deathrite, he was too fast for the little elf, i lost 1-2. The other decks were much more manageable.

Won against R1: Reanimator (2-1), R2: Sneak and Show (2-1), R3:BUG Delver (2-0), R4:Elves (2-0), R6:Miracles (2-0), Top 8: RUG Delver (2-0), Top 4: Sneak and Show (2-0), Final: Esperblade (2-1)

This deck is so powerfull, even without sideboard. I won every first game of all matches, showing that the deck doesn't require the sideboard to win against any other deck!

Awesome! Any changes you would make to the list, or was it perfect? I am a little concerned about not taking Spell Pierce into a tournament, but who knows it could be correct to do.

[renanprezende]

Awesome! Any changes you would make to the list, or was it perfect? I am a little concerned about not taking Spell Pierce into a tournament, but who knows it could be correct to do.

Hey man!

The main deck was pretty good, i don't think that any card would have been better than those 60.

But the sideborad, i kindda disliked clique. i don't know, maybe i didn't play enough matches that it could really shine. The second ancient grudge is also something that i'm thinking about. Maybe cut a clique for a Spell Pierce and the grudge for a Graffdigger's Cage, but i would have to test!

[renanprezende]

Guys, what are your thoughts on having meddling mage on the sb? for combo match ups, but also against other archetypes, i don't know

it can be cast using the shaman, and also maybe adding a tundra to the sb as well

The sb would look something like this:

2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
2 Submerge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Meddling Mage
1 Tundra

I haven't tested it, only had this idea

Do you think it could work?

[mextremartini]

Guys, I'm currently playing the 3trop,2volcanic,1see version. WHat is the best swipper for the current meta?

***Sudden Demise
***Golgari Charm
*** Fire Covenant
*** Eletrickery
*** Forked Bolt

I'm gonna bring them out in basically Goblin, Elves, D&T and Pyromancer decks.
I figured that Golgari Charm might be the best fit. However, I'm really concerned if i;m gonna be able to cast reliably due to the 01 black land.

[renanprezende]

Guys, I'm currently playing the 3trop,2volcanic,1see version. WHat is the best swipper for the current meta?

***Sudden Demise
***Golgari Charm
*** Fire Covenant
*** Eletrickery
*** Forked Bolt

I'm gonna bring them out in basically Goblin, Elves, D&T and Pyromancer decks.
I figured that Golgari Charm might be the best fit. However, I'm really concerned if i;m gonna be able to cast reliably due to the 01 black land.

I would go with:

***Golgari Charm
*** Fire Covenant

charm because TNN is a thing again, and also it can destroy a sneak attack or blood moon, and fire covenant because it can virtually kill everything the opponent has, a delver, a shaman, or even a tarmogoyf if you are willing to pay the life for that!

[ironclad8690]

Guys, what are your thoughts on having meddling mage on the sb? for combo match ups, but also against other archetypes, i don't know

it can be cast using the shaman, and also maybe adding a tundra to the sb as well

The sb would look something like this:

2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
2 Submerge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Meddling Mage
1 Tundra

I haven't tested it, only had this idea

Do you think it could work?

I think silviawataru was trying this on MODO and having good results, but it was more like:

1 Tundra
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Sudden Demise
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Dismember
1 Wear // Tear


Guys, I'm currently playing the 3trop,2volcanic,1see version. WHat is the best swipper for the current meta?

***Sudden Demise
***Golgari Charm
*** Fire Covenant
*** Eletrickery
*** Forked Bolt

I'm gonna bring them out in basically Goblin, Elves, D&T and Pyromancer decks.
I figured that Golgari Charm might be the best fit. However, I'm really concerned if i;m gonna be able to cast reliably due to the 01 black land.

You should try Sudden Demise, but I have had tons of games where Fire Covenant was a beast. Here is my sideboard currently:

2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge
1 Fore Covenant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

I am fairly confident in this sideboard, but I might also cut a flusterstorm or submerge for something else. G Charm and Fire Covenant are just so dirty vs small creature decks, today I killed like 7 Elves with Fire Covenant.

[KobeBryan]

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Are you guys sure this is the correct mana base. You have so many green cards. 2 goyf, 3 mongeese, 1 library, 2-3 abrupt decay, 4 drs.

While you have 4 bolts 1 forked for red.

[renanprezende]

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Are you guys sure this is the correct mana base. You have so many green cards. 2 goyf, 3 mongeese, 1 library, 2-3 abrupt decay, 4 drs.

While you have 4 bolts 1 forked for red.

It is still working fine,, but there is always room for improvement!

Maybe cutting a fetch for the 3rd Tropical, if the deck needs one more green source!

[ironclad8690]

Played in a couple of daily events with this deck.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique

Merfolk: 1-2
Miracles: 0-2

Miracles: 1-2
Goblins: 2-1
Enchantress: 1-2

The Miracles and enchantress games were super close int he latest, with the Miracles player finding 2 Terminus on critical late-game turns where I had established Nemesi and a winning combo of DRS and Goyf. I think I need more Miracles hate in my sideboard for the online metagame, it is super frustrating losing to them.

Speaking of frustrating, how does anyone expect to win with Enchantress on MODO? Where are all the storm players keeping people like that in their place? I am salty about that one.

[btm10]

I wouldn't be too salty about Enchantress - I've always found its Delver matchups to be between even and favorable.

[skyout]

I wouldn't be too salty about Enchantress - I've always found its Delver matchups to be between even and favorable.

I played a small local event last night and beat 12-post, Elves, but lost to Enchantress as well. Their four maindeck rest in peace and the solitary confinement can make it very difficult to win. You need to be ready to answer these when they come down.

[Kainemyte]

Hey Guys,

I want to play RUG Delver, because i love the Deck, but with the upside from the Deathrite Shaman and the Abrupt Decay, to reduce the weakness of RUG. Also i love to punish opponents Fetchlands with Stifle. So the Maindeck-Spells are really straight for me. The hardest decision is which creatures are good enough for the Deck. Besides the full playset of Delver of Secrets and DRS are so many creature, that are playable (Goyf, Pyromancer, Snapcaster, Gurmag Angler, TNN, Goose and so on). I think, that the requirement to the chosen creature ist to be good against spot removal und to be a solid clock. So I choose the True Name Nemesis and Gurmag Angler. The True-Name Nemesis is better than the good old Goose, because it dont rely on the GY. Also the Goose isnt a good clock until the GY reach ***** (T'R'E'S'H ?? why its censored?). Often its on Turn 3 or 4. The TNN enters often the Ground on turn 3 with Counterbackup because of DRS. Also it can block batterskull like a boss and doesnt care about opponents Creatures. Against lands it ignorers Maze of ith, wich is a popular deck in my meta. The 2nd Creature that i choose is Gurmag angler over the tarmogoyf, because it cant be destroyed by abrupt decay. Also a resolved Gurmag Angler isnt punished by Rest in Peace.

My Maindeck looks like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

The Sylvan Library is to improve the Miracles Matchup also in Game 1. The Manabase is under development. I'm not sure uf 19 or 18 Lands are bette, but i think there have to a be 7th dual in it, to make it more difficult to cut up from a color, if both Useas or Volcanics get wasted. Actually i test the Badlands, but Taiga, USea, Trop or Volcanic are playable.

The Sideboard is very flexible, because of the four colours. I'm testing this:
Sideboard (15 Karten)
2 Flusterstorm ( Storm, Snt )
2 Pyroblast ( Storm, Snt, Miracle, Mirror, Shardless)
2 Submerge ( Mirror, Shardless, Rug, Elves, Nic Fit, Maverick)
2 Fire Covenant (Swarm Aggro, Maverick, Tribes, Dnt)
1 Ancient Grudge (Blade Decks, MUD, Affinity)
1 Dread of Night (in my meta are many DnT, only i play LftL)
1 Surgical Extraction (Snt, Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, Lands)
1 Nihil Spellbomb ( Dredge, Reanimator, Lands)
1 Grafdigger's Cage ( Elves, Storm Past in Flames)
1 Vendilion Clique ( Control, Storm )
1 Golgari Charm ( swarm Aggro and Tribes, maybe against miracle)

The Cards are very flexible and good against many matchups, but its a meta choice.

What do you think about my choices?

Thank you very much. Bevor i buy the Useas i want to hear your opinion about my deck.

Greetings from Germany

[IceColdBev]

I played a small local event last night and beat 12-post, Elves, but lost to Enchantress as well. Their four maindeck rest in peace and the solitary confinement can make it very difficult to win. You need to be ready to answer these when they come down.

Mind posting your list?

I'm still trying to see if stifle is a worthy replacement to dt, and if spell pierce should only be a 1-2 of.

[Mr. Crane]

My choise

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 more U dual land(with goyfs Tropical)


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf (Flex, library/angler/TNN)

1 Gurmag Angler (Just one, Miracles a lot)
1 Clique ( Miracles)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 dismember(vs angler)

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblasts
2 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm( a lot elves/DNT meta)
1 Surgical
1 Cage

Flex sb

1 K Command
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfur elemental(Miracles/DNT) or Dread of night(DNT)
1 Abrupt Decay/Null rod/Library/ Needle ?
1 Gurmag Angler

[TheKingslayer]

This has probably been asked in this thread already, so I apologize for the redundant question.

For lists with Nimble Mongoose, how often does DRS get in the way of threshold?

Rarely.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

Just picked this deck up. any reason covent over deluge?

[Manipulato]

Just picked this deck up. any reason covent over deluge?

It´s instant and doesnt kill your own creatures which are huge advantages for me.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

So did this win Eternal extravaganza? I know Ed Demico won, and was playing 4 colors, just not sure if its more of a grixis type deck like this one, regardless would like to see the list

[Jaytron]

So did this win Eternal extravaganza? I know Ed Demico won, and was playing 4 colors, just not sure if its more of a grixis type deck like this one, regardless would like to see the list

Hard to say without decklists. His opponent said it was mostly Grixis?

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
after playing to a miserable TA result at my last locals I´m still working on 4c Delver and think it´s still a really viable choice. I just love Lightning Bolt in a Delver deck and the fancy SB cards that red offers you.

Here´s my current list:

14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

27 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenent
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

I know that many people play stifle in this deck and it has his place in this archtype for sure but I personally just dont like the card from my canadian days, so I play it the way like during the DTT area.

Instead of 4 Stifle I play 2 Gurmag Angler, 1 Abrupt Decay & 1 Sylvan Library which are all more powerful on its own.
Currently I´m not 100 % sold on the 2 Anglers MD, I´m unsure if I should play 2 TNN instead because of Miracles, DnT & Blade decks in general. If I remove the 2 Angler I definitly have to cut the 1off Bayou and must add a 9th fetch because otherwise the mana could get to fragile but at the moment I enjoyed the Bayou alot. Will test it and then we see.

Any other current experiences from turneys? Don´t let this thread die bUrg´ers :smile:

Greetings

[AfroSmile]

Hey guys,
after playing to a miserable TA result at my last locals I´m still working on 4c Delver and think it´s still a really viable choice. I just love Lightning Bolt in a Delver deck and the fancy SB cards that red offers you.

Here´s my current list:

14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

27 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenent
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

I know that many people play stifle in this deck and it has his place in this archtype for sure but I personally just dont like the card from my canadian days, so I play it the way like during the DTT area.

Instead of 4 Stifle I play 2 Gurmag Angler, 1 Abrupt Decay & 1 Sylvan Library which are all more powerful on its own.
Currently I´m not 100 % sold on the 2 Anglers MD, I´m unsure if I should play 2 TNN instead because of Miracles, DnT & Blade decks in general. If I remove the 2 Angler I definitly have to cut the 1off Bayou and must add a 9th fetch because otherwise the mana could get to fragile but at the moment I enjoyed the Bayou alot. Will test it and then we see.

Any other current experiences from turneys? Don´t let this thread die bUrg´ers :smile:

Greetings

Until last two weeks, I play a lot. I was in the CDF tournament in France and I was at MKM Prague where I met Tomas Mar and discussed shortly the deck.
With the ban of Dig Through Time and the comeback of TA and Shardless BUG. I think it was worth to play Stifle again. During the DDT area, I wanted to play the deck with Big Black Fish that is decay proof, but Dig was just better. Now Dig is away so my decklist become:


Main deck
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gurmag Angler (Testing Purpose, 2 seems to be the good number, I think it's ok to consider 4 big beater between goyf, angler and TNN)
1 Snapcaster Mage (Take the place of one big beater, really good in some combo matchup and make sideboard card redondant or with bolt <3)

1 Sylvan Library (Can be replace by something else, but the card is so good)

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle (love it or not, that's the question)
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Ligntning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay (I think 3 is the good number without dig, but with 19 lands!)

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands (to be discuss, it feels like it is not optimal with this manabase)

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge (1 can be remove for something else)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction (not good with gurmag, excellent with snapcaster mage => you have to think about nihil spellbomb and snap)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (very good with goyf or gurmag, but not so good with snapcaster => surgical is better with snapcaster)
1 Pithing Needle (good card overall, but can be replace)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (MUST HAVE!!! I recommanding to play it in your sideboard! So usefull in a LOT of matchup, but not in the maindeck because of the mana cost)
1 Forked Bolt (Good with snapcaster, can be replace by something else)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique


The deck stills quite good, but is not so strong like in the DTT period. We have to work on the deck to make it comeback in the top tier, but it will be hard.
I know somebody who are trying to introduice Painful Thruth in TA, is it good enough for consideration? In TA, it's ok because the deck is proactive, but in a deck like bUrg it seems really bad. (I think the card is bad in bUrg and in TA. xD)

What the ideal decklist would look like for you?


P.S.: Maybe I can't answer quickly for question on Gurmag or something else. It's quite stressfull period for me. :-/

[Manipulato]

Until last two weeks, I play a lot. I was in the CDF tournament in France and I was at MKM Prague where I met Tomas Mar and discussed shortly the deck.
With the ban of Dig Through Time and the comeback of TA and Shardless BUG. I think it was worth to play Stifle again. During the DDT area, I wanted to play the deck with Big Black Fish that is decay proof, but Dig was just better. Now Dig is away so my decklist become:


Main deck
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gurmag Angler (Testing Purpose, 2 seems to be the good number, I think it's ok to consider 4 big beater between goyf, angler and TNN)
1 Snapcaster Mage (Take the place of one big beater, really good in some combo matchup and make sideboard card redondant or with bolt <3)

1 Sylvan Library (Can be replace by something else, but the card is so good)

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle (love it or not, that's the question)
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Ligntning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay (I think 3 is the good number without dig, but with 19 lands!)

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands (to be discuss, it feels like it is not optimal with this manabase)

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge (1 can be remove for something else)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction (not good with gurmag, excellent with snapcaster mage => you have to think about nihil spellbomb and snap)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (very good with goyf or gurmag, but not so good with snapcaster => surgical is better with snapcaster)
1 Pithing Needle (good card overall, but can be replace)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (MUST HAVE!!! I recommanding to play it in your sideboard! So usefull in a LOT of matchup, but not in the maindeck because of the mana cost)
1 Forked Bolt (Good with snapcaster, can be replace by something else)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique


The deck stills quite good, but is not so strong like in the DTT period. We have to work on the deck to make it comeback in the top tier, but it will be hard.
I know somebody who are trying to introduice Painful Thruth in TA, is it good enough for consideration? In TA, it's ok because the deck is proactive, but in a deck like bUrg it seems really bad. (I think the card is bad in bUrg and in TA. xD)

What the ideal decklist would look like for you?


P.S.: Maybe I can't answer quickly for question on Gurmag or something else. It's quite stressfull period for me. :-/

Thx for your answer! Personally I just dont like stifle but that's just me, I really like my current list but I can only speak for a couple of test games so far. I have to wait till our next Legacy event later this month, I will let you guys know how it went.
How were your results at those 2 big events? I'm really interested :smile:

[blablub]

Hey all,
is everyone playing the deck right now?

I'm totaly confused about the creature base, i dont know what to play :(, there are so many options.

Something like: 4 DRS 4 Delver 3 Mungo 2 Nemesis; 4 DRS 4 Delver 4 Mungo; 4 DRS 4 Delver 3 Mungo 2 Goyf; 4 DRS 4 Delver 2 Gurmag Angler 2 Nemesis; or maybe the traditial Team America Creature Base or a Delverless Build.

I simply can't decide. Maybe you have a good opinion or other suggetions :)

Another thing is, are there any secret techs for beatings Lands? special Sideboardcards maybe?

[crush]

In my opinion, Gurmag Angler is too good to not be included.. so this leaves you only with the decision which 2/3 drop to pair him with - TNN or Young Pyro.

I play 4 Delver, 4 DRS, 3 TNN and 2 Anglers (with 19 lands and Thoughtseize main deck) and it has been working fine so far.

[blablub]

Cool, im tinkering with the same configuration, maybe 3 Angler 2 nemesis
Do You mind share your list ? :)

[AfroSmile]

Thx for your answer! Personally I just dont like stifle but that's just me, I really like my current list but I can only speak for a couple of test games so far. I have to wait till our next Legacy event later this month, I will let you guys know how it went.
How were your results at those 2 big events? I'm really interested :smile:

My result was something like:

MKM Series Prague

BIG TRIAL LEGACY (4-2)
R1: ANT (2-0)
R2: 12 Post (2-0)
R3: Grixis Delver (2-0)
R4: Storm (0-2) => Sometimes, you can really do nothing.
R5: 4c Loam (2-1) => I won game 1. He won game 2. I won game 3 with double delver + Force Back up for anything that can clean the board.
R6: Elves (0-2) => Julian Knab (Big Boss of Elves)

MAIN EVENT LEGACY (3-2 => Drop)
R1: RUG Delver (2-1)
R2: 4c Loam (2-0)
R3: Shardless BUG (0-2)
R4: Sneak&Show (2-1) => It was against an old pro player who were really friendly. I had anything and draw everything I need. :P
R5: Maverick? (0-2) => I don't remember the game and I'm unsure of the deck, but I think it was maverick. I loose first game because I keep an unkeepable hand, but I was too self-confident.
=> Drop

Championnat de France Legacy (CDF)
It is very important that I'm not French. So I cannot take part in the main event and I have to do the side event.

OPEN CDF - Last Chance Qualifier(4-1-2)
R1: BURG Control (2-0)
R2: UWr Stoneblade (2-1)
R3: UWr Miracle (1-1)
R4: Shardless BUG (0-2)
R5: Enchantress (2-0)
R6: Loam (0-2)
R7: UR Delver (2-0)
R8: Merfolk (0-2)

CDF - BIG SIDE EVENT (5-0)
I cannot take part to the main event.
R1: I get the bye. LoL
R2: Oops all my spell (2-1)
R3: 4c Loam (2-1)
R4: Reanimator (2-0)
R5: Storm (2-0) => Weird point: Game 1, took 50 minutes! OMFG!!! Even now, I don't how we did to take so much time.

=> I won the side event (no top8)

Demons of the Alps - FINAL ACT
Then I had Demons of the Alps (http://demonsota.com), it's one of the biggest tournaments in Switzerland! (72 players)

I change my deckles a bit according to my precedent experience.
Main deck: -1 Gurmag Angler +1 True-name Nemesis
Sideboard: 1 Ancient grudge, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Forked bolt, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Golgari charm, 1 Maelstrom pulse, 1 Surgical extraction, 1 Nihil spell bomb, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Pithing needle, 1 Submerge, 1 Vendilion clique

DEMONSOTA - FINAL ACT (5-1-1 => Top 4)
R1: I got a bye because I won Demonsota Act 1. (There is some video of me playing bUrg Delver on my YouTube channel MtGSwissEternal: I was playing horribly bad at this moment. I learned a lot in the meanwhile.)
R2: Dark Maverick (1-1) => My opponent played a bit slowly and the third game, I would have killed him next turn. :'( (thanks to bitterblossom)
R3: UW Miracle (2-0)
R4: Shardless BUG (1-2)
R5: Grixis Delver (2-1)
R6: 4c Stoneblade (UWgb) (2-1)
R7: BUG Delver (2-1)

Quart-finals: Storm (2-0)
Semi-finals: Jund (0-2) => I keep in the both games bad hands with not enough pressure.

NEW

Geneva Legacy 6
This weekend I played at another one of the biggest tournaments in Switzerland. (101 players)
I play the exact decklist of Demonsota - Final Act.

Geneva Legacy 6 (5-0-2 => Top 4)
R1: Storm (2-1)
R2: Storm (1-1) => He slow-play and in the game 3, he cannot win. I extract some key spell and we were at a point where my hand was 2x Force, 2x Daze, 1x Stifle and he had no card in hand. He didn't want to concede me. :'(
R3: 4c Midrange (2-0) => Weird 4c midrange based on counter-top and monastery mentor interaction like top and cabal therapy.
R4: MUD (2-0)
R5: Merfolk (2-1) => Really close game
R6: Grixis Delver (2-1) => Featured, maybe I'll post the link when the video is available. I did some mistakes game 1 because I was thinking he was on Storm.
R7: ID against Lightless who wrote this report. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30203-Top-4-at-GENEVA-legacy-VI-with-Grixis-controll&p=920179&viewfull=1#post920179)

Quart-finals: Storm (2-1) => One of the most incredible game I played in this matchup!

Top4: We split the prize pool because it was late.

[AfroSmile]

Cool, im tinkering with the same configuration, maybe 3 Angler 2 nemesis
Do You mind share your list ? :)

You can see my list in the above posts. 3 Angler is too much I think. The first angler you cast is no problem, the second is OK. The third is a pain in the ass to play. Usually with got that number of angler, you play all your land to cast it and it's not a good play, in my opinion. You want to shuffle back your land with brainstorm.
Actually I think I would play something like 4 Delver, 4 Deathrite, 2 Angler, 2 True-name Nemesis, 1 Snapcaster Mage (I'm really a fan of the little blue boy).
But I don't know what card to remove in my main deck. The third True-Name Nemesis of crush is OK if replacing the snapcaster mage, but the curve become really high. I think it's a loss of tempo.

I have a question:
How do you beat Shardless BUG, Punishing Jund or other BG Midrange decks?
As you can see, in the last five tournaments I always lose against shardless BUG even if it's a bad player. I know we have to be the aggressor with early delver and mana denial, but I feel like even we do that it is not enough to win if the opponent is good.

Game Plan + Strategy:
In the early game, I put the most pressure I can in a tempo mode.
Then I try to trade 1-1 the ressource with counterspell/bolt/decay to arrive in a top deck situation (no cards in hand) and from there I try to put another pressure.
I want to win the game as quickly as possible.

I want to manage the board not the stack. Counter spells usually go out for more board management.

My sideboard for Punishing Jund:
+1 Bitterblossom
+1 Forked Bolt (Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confident, Bloodbraid Elf and sometimes Liliana and Scavenging Ooze)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fire)
+1 Submerge (In response to a fetch)
+1 Ventilions Clique (Need more creature)

On the play:
-3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -2 Stifle
On the draw:
-2 Force of Will, -2 Daze, -2 Stifle

My sideboard for Shardless BUG:
+1 Ancient Grudge (For the Shardless Agent and sometimes Baleful Strix => Real pain in the ass)
+1 Bitterblossom
+1 Forked Bolt (Deathrite Shaman, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Submerge
+2 Pyroblast (Jace, the mind sculptor, Ancestral Vision)
+1 Ventilions Clique (Need more creature)

-4 Force of Will (Really bad in the match up)
-2 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Stifle

Tricks:
- Stifle can hard counter a suspended Ancestral Vision by counter the triggered ability that lets you play the suspended card.

Can I have your opinion? Solution for these matchups?
Every opinion interests me! Everybody is welcome to express themselves for helping me for these bad match ups.

[Manipulato]

# Afrosmile: What's your current list? How Important or good was Stifle so far?

[tescrin]

# Afrosmile: What's your current list? How Important or good was Stifle so far?

Why are people always trying to drop Stifle..? If you hate it, don't run it. If you like it, run it.

It's a good card that synergizes with Delver decks and is reasonable against combo in a nice variety of circumstances.

[Manipulato]

Why are people always trying to drop Stifle..? If you hate it, don't run it. If you like it, run it.

It's a good card that synergizes with Delver decks and is reasonable against combo in a nice variety of circumstances.

No reason for attacking me! It was a normal question.

[AfroSmile]

# Afrosmile: What's your current list? How Important or good was Stifle so far?


Why are people always trying to drop Stifle..? If you hate it, don't run it. If you like it, run it.

It's a good card that synergizes with Delver decks and is reasonable against combo in a nice variety of circumstances.


I think I will try to answer both questions in one answer.

The problem with Stifle is that it is at the same time a very good card and a very bad card, because of the situational aspect of the card.
It has his place in a tempo shell because it has a huge potential. (It makes you win. :laugh:)
But depending on the situation, it can stick to your hand and be a very bad card. Because of that it's difficult to say if we want that card in our 75 or not.

Stifle is my favourite card so I will always try to leave a room for it. But I have to admit the 4-of is not what I want now because of the risk to draw 2 stifle.
In a lot of situations, I don't want to see 2 stifle in a game, but I want to draw at least 1 during a lot of match-ups. So actually I play 3 Stifle.

In all of my posted tournament, when I draw and play my stifle, it was really a good card but I did have to many samples of it in my hand.
My deck list didn't change from my last tournament because I don't have a lot of time to play Mtg. :cry::cry::cry:

Maybe I didn't write very well my ideas, but if it's not explicit enough: Tell it to me and I will try to improve my text to be clearer. :wink:

[Manipulato]

I think I will try to answer both questions in one answer.

The problem with Stifle is that it is at the same time a very good card and a very bad card, because of the situational aspect of the card.
It has his place in a tempo shell because it has a huge potential. (It makes you win. :laugh:)
But depending on the situation, it can stick to your hand and be a very bad card. Because of that it's difficult to say if we want that card in our 75 or not.

Stifle is my favourite card so I will always try to leave a room for it. But I have to admit the 4-of is not what I want now because of the risk to draw 2 stifle.
In a lot of situations, I don't want to see 2 stifle in a game, but I want to draw at least 1 during a lot of match-ups. So actually I play 3 Stifle.

In all of my posted tournament, when I draw and play my stifle, it was really a good card but I did have to many samples of it in my hand.
My deck list didn't change from my last tournament because I don't have a lot of time to play Mtg. :cry::cry::cry:

Maybe I didn't write very well my ideas, but if it's not explicit enough: Tell it to me and I will try to improve my text to be clearer. :wink:

Hi,
I know what Stifle does and when it´s good but just wantend to hear your experience from the last events, thx for your answer.

Greetings

[AfroSmile]

Hi,
I know what Stifle does and when it´s good but just wantend to hear your experience from the last events, thx for your answer.

Greetings

Stifle did their job as usual. Give headache to storm player and destroy the opponent manabase. And they did well.
Snapcaster mage is incredible with stifle or bolt. xD

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!
New to TheSource, but been playing Legacy for like 3 years now after having watched it a fair share.
I'd like to show you guys my take on bUrg-Delver with the following list I've been tweaking since the banning of DTT:


Mainboard:
12 creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose

8 cantrips:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

16 counters:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

6 removals:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Abrupt Decay

18 lands:
4x Wasteland
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand

sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Forked Bolt
2x Dread of Night
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Divert
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
1x Ancient Grudge


All the following statements are my opinion only, but I hope you can follow me nontheless:

Why I like this deck more than Grixis-Delver:
Having started from UR-Delver making the evolution of real-Grixis to green Grixis I can say that Young Pyromancer without Dig through Time just isn't the same. You just can't snap him off a DTT together with a Ponder or Therapy, instead he becomes a horrible topdeck. Not to speak of the countless times I've lost because I got 2-for-1ed by Forked Bolt/Golgari-Charm/Jitte/whatever with 2 YP or 1 YP and an unflipped Delver out. Controlling their hand via discard also doesn't prevent them from topdecking like a champ (e.g. into Tarmogoyf, Jitte or YP-hate).
Grixis also often times tries to cast the cantrips when they're really not that hot, only to get tokens or hoping to draw into discard (you really look stupid when you brainstorm in reponse to your opponent going off and hit Cabal Therapy).

Why I like this deck more than BUG-Delver:
I have played with a BUG-Delver proxy a fair share. While I thought at first that red doesn't really offer anything BUG doesn't have with the addition of a stable mana base and discard I first thought BUG was just superior. There're several reasons this is wrong imo though:

1. red is more efficient:
It's simple: Forked Bolt, Ancient Grudge, Bolt, Pyroblast are all not good because of their effect, but because of their cost-efficiency. This is important in Legacy overall, but even more important when playing with Delver.

2. discard+counters isn't superior to counters:
On paper it looks great: You have Force of Will, Daze AND discard? Well, that's enough to win against combo most of the time, no doubt, but imo there're some major disadvantages over straight counters that may not seem intuitive at first:

2.1 Having only a restricted amount of mana allows you to only cast a certain amount of cards each turn. You can either choose to spend mana to discard or keep up mana to counter. Also the opponent often times has to play around your open Deathrite, but not when you're already tapped out because of casting discard.

2.2 Your brainstorms are better by a siginificant margin. While BUG is pretty much forced to fire off Brainstorm as soon as possible to find discard, we can hold it and cast it at the last possible moment even when our opponent is already trying to go off, making it as best as possible.

2.3 A higher blue-count affects our Force of Wills. BUG often gets stuck with no blue cards besides FoW or only one cantrip they can't fire then. We play 40% more blue cards (28 instead of 20), making Force of Will AND Brainstorm (you can cast more often) better cards.

Why no Tarmogoyf or Gurmag Angler?
From my YP-days I know just how clumsy multiple creatures can be. I think that ALL of my creatures are superior to Tarmogoyf. Nimble Mongoose is an MVP in matchups going from Miracles to RUG to Stoneforge-decks to 4c-loam to lands. It's ridiculous how many games I've won because I was able to stick it on the board and only counter/remove threats that bother it, making a whole bunch of my opponent's removal useless.
As a nice side-effect I have no Spell Snare targets (since mostly Delver plays Spell Snare most of the times also postboard). Also Abrupt Decay is always a tempo-disadvantage for them because they always spend one mana more than I did.
The disadvantage is that Goyf is a quicker clock than Deathrite, I tend to be more controlling in many matchups anyways though (since unlike RUG I have efficient answers to petty much everything) so I don't regret my choice of not having spent 500 bucks.
Knowing how good Gurmag Angler is against BUG I'd still rather have 4 Nimble Mongoose than 2 Gurmag Anglers, that's why I have none of them.

How this deck plays out:
No Tarmogoyfs/YPs allows me to keep open mana a lot. I love stifle and besides Mongoose it's an MVP in many matchups:
- It makes Jitte/sword AND Batterskull bad choices for Stoneforge to fetch.
- Besides Tarmogoyf (which I have Spell Snares and Abrupt Decays for) Liliana is a big problem. Oh wait, i have stifle.
- Snapcaster, Miracle, Cascade, Suspend-trigger, even stifling punishing fire-triggers so I can exile it with Deathrite is viable sometimes! I run 4 and only cut them in matchups that don't run Fetchlands, but that's what the sideboard is for, isn't it?
- last but not least, against decks that attack your manabase really hard with Life from the Loam it buys a LOT of time by stifling Wastelands which can be key. Against other stifle-decks I run them defensively a lot of times, though it's of course key to keep your opponent off a color, too at times.

You might realize that unlike other builds I only run 6 duals, 2 of each. Thing is I love stifle a lot and already played a TON against RUG-Delver (which a friend of mine has). Thing is that between Stifle and Deathrite it's really rare from me to get two of the same lands wasted. Besides Stifle the combo of Daze and Bolt/Brainstorm/Decay saves my lands a surprising amount of time (why do I always have a brainstorm in hand? See above).
Even when I get manascrewed I often times manage to run away with Mongoose and Force/Snare backup, making it impossible for my opponent to come back.
My manabase only allows me to play 2 Abrupt Decays confidently though, the 2 Spell Snares help complement them a lot though imo.
I have a third in the board, but only board it in against decks that don't have 4 Wastelands and cantrips to find them.
But that way I still allowing me to have 4 answers to Chalice once it hit the board which is quite imporant considering my deck is almost mono-1-drops

So yeah, I love Mongoose and Stifle, but hate that RUG can't deal with Jitte, Chalice, Counterbalance and Tarmogoyfs mainboard once they're on the field, so here I am.

Feel free to discuss and disagree with certain points I made, I'd be glad to share and exchange opinions with you!

[crush]

Welcome to the boards,

The list you posted is actually the original idea and first version of BURG Delver - i.e. RUG Delver shell with added black, replacing Goyf with DRS and added Abrupt Decay to help with G1 threats that RUG Delver cannot beat.

The deck is very resiliant, very lean and a blast to play. It crushes combo and control decks (imo), but seriously lacks firepower vs tempo and midrange decks. Contrary to your finding I do not believe 2 Decays + 2 Snares are enough to fight against a deck with 4 Goyfs. Also 2 Decays and 4 Stifles will not prevent a Batterskull to come online eventually (since this deck is not able to close out games fast enough).

This is my experience with the deck - I am not trying to dissuade you from trying out the list, it might work out in your meta.

Goose requires a special mention, as it is my favorite creature also, but unfortunatelly the printing of TNN, Angler and Mentor have pushed it out of the radar as far as I am concerned. Again, it is still great if you expect to be faceing mostly Miracles and Lands.

[Agrippa91]

Oh, now you mention it I kinda remember reading about the origins of the deck when I was brewing around with an almost similar version. It only feels strange because many decks actually tend to play Goyfs now which is better at racing. He is defninitely better at matchups like Merfolk and Death and Taxes because he's able to put on a clock fast and is a really good wall.
To the 2 Snares 2 Decays against Goyf: I should've specified that I mean this against decks that don't run discard to take these cards away (mainly RUG) or that don't have Brainstorms to find many Goyfs (Jund).
So yeah, against BUG in all variants I really need the additional Abrupt Decay and Dismember out of my Sideboard, especially Divert helps with my reactive gamestyle.
To the Stoneforge: All the lists (even UWR-Delver) count as control as far as I'm concerned, so Mongoose is just really good. Preboard I pretty much only need to force the True-Names if he doesn't have a quick Delver-draw, postboard Golgari Charm is just a beast against Stoneforge-decks.
What I meant with the equipment is that there's no general weakness to a specific equipment like RUG has in Jitte/Swords or BUG in Batterskull. Actually casting Batterskull around Daze is pretty unlikely and only happens if I like don't draw a Goose at all and they remove every single threat I play with swords/bolt.

What I like about this list is that I still have a pretty good chance at defeating delver-hate-decks like lands and 4c-loam (I like being able to defeat everyone if I have a good draw and play better than them).

To the strenghts of this deck:
- I agree that Combo is a really good matchup, it's a Delver-deck with Bolt overall.
- Thanks to Goose, Decay and Stifle I also agree that the U/W/x Control-decks are favorable. Golgari Charm and Pyroblast help postboard here.
- Contrary to your opinion as far as I've tested it also is really good against other Delver-decks besides BUG which is just slightly more fairer, giving me a headache often times, especially preboard. YP just has a really hard time against Golgari Charm and Forked Bolt while RUG struggles to stick Tarmogoyf. Also Deathrite is a beast in Delver matchups. Overall however these matchups are only slightly favored, but one of my favorites to play.

Even matchups imo include:
- Jund. Goose especially helps giving us wins against removal-heavy hands.
- 4c-loam. Though they have a Chalice, 4 ways to deal with it postboard + 4 Forces really do an awesome job here. Like in Jund Mongoose helps against Decays and Punishing Fire a lot here.
- Merfolk and Elves. Preboard we're losing most of the time, but a lot of removal in the sideboard helps us because we play cantrips and they don't.
- 12post/MUD. It always depends on opening hands most of the time (FoW, Decay, Wasteland). What we lack preboard they lack postboard though.

Unfavorable matchups:
- Death and Taxes, especially in the first game. Golgari Charm, Forked Bolt and esp. Dread of Night give us an awesome post-board though.
- lands. Well, we're still the best Delver decks against them with like a 30-40% win chance (?). Here as against 4c-loam I like to board out all my soft permission and using my stifles only to counter Wastelands and stage activations, sometimes Punishing Fire when I can get it with Deathrite.
- Nic Fit/Maverick. Unfortunately we can't play engineered explosives or Perish. We have some really nasty hate, but need to close out the game fast or manascrew them. Stifle helps against Veteran explorer, but not much.
- Both BUG-versions . We have ways to deal with Tarmogoyf and Deathrite efficiently, but it's just not always there, postboard we get additional ways to deal with Tarmogoyf. One of our worst matchups which lies in the nature of the deck.

Given that, I still feel that bUrg has always a decent chance of winning, even in the unfavorable matchups just because we have powerful sideboard cards thanks to our four colors. Having Golgari Charm, Pyroblast AND cantrips to dig for them just feels awesome!
On the other side this deck definitely doesn't get many free wins besides manascrewing your opponents once in a while so you have to play tight. That's exactly what I love about playing magic though, so yeah. I love this deck:tongue:

[crush]

Here is a list I came up with which looks really promising, but requires additional testing. I welcome all comments and/or suggestions.

--- creatures [10] ---
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler

--- instants [26] ---
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Burst Lightning

--- sorceries [6] ---
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

--- lands [18] ---
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island

The idea is really simple, use only the best creatures available. Play tempo/control. Reload with P.Truths when out of gas. Worked wonderfully in the few matches I tested it.
The Burst Lightning is for opposing DRS mostly - could be a dismember, but this one gives you some additional reach as well.

[Agrippa91]

Hm, that looks interesting. I actually think you could get away with only playing 10 creatures, it could get really hard against Swords-Snapcaster-decks though. Against Miracles it could be that you're just not fast enough? DRS always seems really slow to me in this matchup.
That all would require some testing of course, but two things that bother me are:
- The burst lightning. Is the instant speed really that much better than Forked Bolt? I imagine it's important in situations where you otp lead with a fetch or volcanic and he plays a deathrite as his first creature of the turn. Personally I like to wait during my turn to kill the DRS even in this scenario though to play around Daze. That is if you only have one removal spell. Then again, if you had another Bolt, why wouldn't you cast that one instant-speed?
- The Painful Truths seem much better in a tap-out-version with Discard. It just feels weird to me to play Spell Pierces and Stifles with these 3 mana sorceries.
The creature base is really good though, allowing you to hold up mana very often. It's kinda soft to Liliana though, don't know how big of a deal this is in your meta.

A general sideboardplan would also be nice. What cards do you really plan to bring in? Do you just not play Young Pyromancer because you want Golgari Charm so bad?

[Manipulato]

Hi,
Tomas Mar top 8ed with the following list in a 170 people event in Frankfurt Germany...

BURG Delver
Tomas Mar

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

2 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Envelop*

Really interesting & innovative list, I think. The 2 Painful Truth & the 1 Kolaghans Command are discussable, I know that those cards are really powerful and super strong but I'm not sure if 4c Delver is the right place for those cards, Midrange decks Shardless, Jund, Junk, Esper etc are better places in my opinion.
Gurmag Angler is also currently to good not to play & as a 2off better than Tarmogoyf especially against those BGx decks.

Does anybody know what Tomas Vlcek (10th place) played at that turney, he's known for playing 4c Delver too I think, would be great to get his list too.

[tescrin]

Why I like this deck more than BUG-Delver:
I have played with a BUG-Delver proxy a fair share. While I thought at first that red doesn't really offer anything BUG doesn't have with the addition of a stable mana base and discard I first thought BUG was just superior. There're several reasons this is wrong imo though:

2. discard+counters isn't superior to counters:
On paper it looks great: You have Force of Will, Daze AND discard? Well, that's enough to win against combo most of the time, no doubt, but imo there're some major disadvantages over straight counters that may not seem intuitive at first:

1 Having only a restricted amount of mana allows you to only cast a certain amount of cards each turn. You can either choose to spend mana to discard or keep up mana to counter. Also the opponent often times has to play around your open Deathrite, but not when you're already tapped out because of casting discard.

2 Your brainstorms are better by a siginificant margin. While BUG is pretty much forced to fire off Brainstorm as soon as possible to find discard, we can hold it and cast it at the last possible moment even when our opponent is already trying to go off, making it as best as possible.

3 A higher blue-count affects our Force of Wills. BUG often gets stuck with no blue cards besides FoW or only one cantrip they can't fire then. We play 40% more blue cards (28 instead of 20), making Force of Will AND Brainstorm (you can cast more often) better cards.


@1
You've been playing/watching legacy for 3 years and this is your conclusion? You want two forms of interaction with combo or you're *really* dead to certain cards or playstyles. You never spend mana on FoW or Daze in the early game unless your hand is pure garbage. Discard also gives information that makes your Brainstorms better. Further, Discard can do things like take a Decay out of an opponent's hand; leaving your 12-14 threat deck less vulnerable to removal. For example, they have 3 lands and cast Dark Ritual. You're SOL. Discard would've bought you a turn (probably) rather than sitting on a dead card. Similar arguments can be made about Xantid Swarm, Decay, and the like. You are entirely wrong about this line of thinking.

That doesn't mean you can't make it work, RUG is still a fantastic deck. Even so, they're cold to a lot of cards and they require a higher skill cap unless they run Probe, because they can't see what is going on.

@2
This is significantly ill-reasoned. First, you assume that just because you waited, you're in a better position. If they grab thoughtseize where you are forced to grab Spell Pierce; they are in a vastly more powerful position than you due to knowledge of the opp's hand and that it's not a dead card in the scenarios outlined above (3 land/petal rit, Swarm, Defense grid, Decay, need I go on?) Just because you cast Brainstorm at instant speed when you're behind doesn't mean you're in a better position. Your knowledge of the board state is only advanced a single card further than your comparison, but their knowledge of the opp's hand is several cards higher than yours.

@3
I guess? They'll have to use FoW less often because they have Discard to supplement it. They also have a *much* higher clock than you, meaning you'll have to deal with an extra turn or two of the combo deck, implying that you will FoW more often and less successfully IMO. You also disingenuously forget to mention that all your combo interaction is weak to REB, making you much worse against SneakShow or Painter, for example.


That said, I'm not arguing that BUG is superior; merely that your arguments here don't work.

[Agrippa91]

@1
Two forms of interaction are certainly not necessary against combo (countering being the superior one because it prevents topdecking into outs and turn-1-kills otd). In fact a deck like Shardless BUG is so mediocre against combo (though it has FoW and Discard) that it started splashing white JUST to have Meddling Mage for the combo matchups.
Xantid Swarm is pretty garbage against my 4 Bolts and 2 Golgari Charms. Speaking of storms you pretend like Storm never beats a Thoughtseize. When they have (put) a Tutor on top it can happen that they just laught at you getting one of their 3 rituals/artifacts, going for Past in Flames/Ad Nauseam next turn.
Also Discard doesn't prevent your opponent from topdecking an enabler for his combo. It's kinda like BUG plays against the opponent's hand, RUG is playing against the whole deck. The disadvantage RUG has here is that they don't know about their opponent's hand, but they already have topdecks covered in their head because they already account for these cards. And often times, you just have to play to your outs and it's enough.
I'm also not saying that RUG is superior as it has certain weaknesses like Carpet of Flowers or a quick Empty the Warrens (reason why I like Golgari Charm), I'm just pointing out the strengths that imo get often times neglected when comparing these decks' plans.

@2 Yes, because I waited longer with Brainstorm, I'm in a better position. The reason for that is that often times you can pretty much divide your deck into lands/creatures/combo-hate when you look at it. It's vital to have the lands and creatures at the start, but the longer the game goes ("long" meaning past turn 2) the less you want lands and (more) creatures. You have to filter really hard to actually get to combo-hate*.
With BUG you often have to Brainstorm if you have (almost) no action in hand, digging less deep (trying to find discard-sorceries). When you keep Brainstorm up for the worst-case and are able to cast it perhaps several turns later because the opponent DIDN'T go off this turn you had nothing in hand, you get rewarded by being able to shuffle away more "garbage" that got stuck in your hand.

@3
My creatures might be smaller, but my Delver flips slightly more often and I have Bolts so it should be kinda even. Which Combo-decks play REB? Painter and Show&Tell? Well, against Show&Tell I have my own REBs so it kinda evens out, right? And against Painter thanks to my own REBs I can destroy Bloodmoon when they go off and stop them, so it doesn't seem that bad. REB seems pretty good against combo that play it themselves imo.
To the Show&Tell Matchup: It's one of the best for RUG because they have to fight over a single expensive spell (at least cmc3) which is just awesome when you rely on stifling their mana, spell piercing and dazing them. Thoughtseize is pretty good here as I know, but Hymn e.g. is sometimes just bad when you're unlucky. Relying on it sometimes just costs you the game and is really bad when they e.g. Pondered or Brainstormed, leaving an important spell on top.

*It's irrelevant here if that's a Thoughtseize or a Spell Snare here (your example of spell pierce which is rather bad against Storm is better against Show&Tell), Combo loses to a hand full of counters as well as to a bunch of discard with counter backup if played correctly. Even without Gitaxian Probe I can tell how to play (sometimes to my outs) a lot by which cards I have in my hand.

[meffeo]

Does anybody know what Tomas Vlcek (10th place) played at that turney, he's known for playing 4c Delver too I think, would be great to get his list too.

Miracles, I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[Lormador]

So I'm working on this deck because of a peculiar local meta, dominated very sharply by other Delver decks, Miracles, and Storm. I'm scrapping any and all planning for other matchups.

The MD I've got going on is the same as the one on the first page, the "Official burg.dec" with one change, switching the TNN out for a Sylvan Library. I love Sylvan Library, and when I think of the reason to play green I think of this card before Goyf. So there's that.

What I'm mostly tinkering with is the sideboard here, and this is what I have so far.

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dark Confidant
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vendilion Clique

...so I haven't 100% neglected every other matchup, but I'm directing my thinking towards Miracles/Delver/Storm specifically. The Delver family is diverse also, featuring RUG, BUG, Grixis, and UR Delver. My idea is to use Dark Confidants as double duty in the Delver mirror and against Miracles, with Liliana of the Veil doing double duty against combo and Miracles.

My worry, aside from the simple possibility of hitting other matchups for which I'm completely underprepared, is that these Delver folks will be bringing in extra removal. I am not, although I do have extra threats. I also have no answer to a zombie fish, as Lily can't come in against a mana denial deck with my tenuous mana configuration.

[crush]

The list in the primer is very outdated. Here are my comments:
- You have to play all 4 Shamans, playing less then 4 is simply wrong imo.
- I would only play Mongeese if I would expect a lot of Miracles and/or Lands, otherwise Angler is way superior.
- Confidants in the SB are wasted slots, Miracles and Combo are already very good matchups.
- I have never tested Liliana, but BB in the casting cost seems prohibitive in a 4c deck
- Same goes for RR from Vortex (did test this one)
- I would add some grave hate in the SB
- I would add another Golgari Charm, a Forked bolt and a couple Submerges if you expect a lot of Delver mirrors
- edit: forgot a 1-of dismember; also a must have in sb

[Lormador]

Thanks for the advice. I managed to get some testing in today against BUG Delver and can reflect on the suggestions you made. Most of all, I think I must have somehow missed how similar this deck is to RUG. The last thing I tried was Grixis Delver and YP and Therapies, but the list that I miss was that sweet Noah Walker DTT deck. Both of those play out very differently than the way this does, but I think I like the change.

Nimble Mongoose was great in those games against BUG, but Angler would have been at least as vicious and totally unconcerned about keeping Tarmogoyf out of his way. I think I'll take your advice and stick an Angler in the deck, moving DRS up to 4 and putting the last Mongoose slot into counterspell or removal. Since I'm splashing black for Abrupt Decay anyway, I think the third one might as well get this slot.

The sideboard now looks like this (with 4 DRS, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gurmag Angler, 3 Abrupt Decay, and a 2-1 Snare/Pierce split in the MD):

2 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Submerge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

[thefringthing]

How sketchy is my mana going to be if I play a Bayou over a Trop? (And 3 Decay.)

[Lormador]

I think it's going to be pretty sketchy. Getting back to the original theory of the deck and comparing this idea with running a Taiga as the nonblue dual, Bayou doesn't do the same work of allowing all spells to be cast off of just two lands. Bayou + Volcanic can't cast Abrupt Decay, and Bayou + Sea can't cast Lightning Bolt, so against decks that don't pressure your manabase we'd need to play 3 lands. One less card to Brainstorm away.

Comparing Bayou with Tropical Island, the job this card is supposed to do is deploy a T1 threat with Daze active.

On Bayou's plus side, it would be nice to be able to use one land for DRS drains or summoning monsters and keep the island untapped. Sea+Taiga+DRS can't do this, it's necessary to lower the shields during opponent's end step if I want to drain. Bad things can happen in that moment.

[crush]

This deck has moved away from being able to play everything with two lands (Sea+Taiga) to a more midrange aproach.

You will eventually find out that the deck works at its best with 3 lands in play. Usually you want to cast something (threat, cantrip), leave mana up for DRS activation and still be able to cast something.

Take a look at the list posted few pages back with P.Truths and 19 lands for reference (this list is an attempt to mimic the lists running Dig Through Time when this was a deck to beat).

Regarding Bayou, I tried it in a heavy black build with 19 lands, but I believe playing only blue duals is the best approach.

[Lormador]

Indeed, there are a lot of very interesting lists and a great conversation on those past few pages, I wish I had read more of that in the first place instead of sticking my foot straight into my mouth. Using Painful Truths to push the deck back into more or less where it was with Dig Through Time is a thought that hadn't occurred to me, as Truths is so far behind where Dig was in terms of power level.

This is a very interesting time to be playing Delver of Secrets as a player, with two Delver variants in the DTB section and neither BURG nor RUG far away from that. I don't know what I should play.

[Agrippa91]

When you all say "play Gurmag Angler over Mongoose" what do you suggest for the third and fourth substitute? You can play 4 Mongooses, but only 2 Gurmag Anglers.

[Lormador]

(snip) You will eventually find out that the deck works at its best with 3 lands in play. Usually you want to cast something (threat, cantrip), leave mana up for DRS activation and still be able to cast something. (snip)

This is indeed what happens. For several reasons, it's hard to play the game with just 2 lands in play. Taiga is pretty useless most of the time, especially now that I've cut Mongoose for Gurmag Angler (with an Abrupt Decay in the extra slot). The pleasant feeling of sitting on the ideal Sea+Taiga disappears once the Sea gets Wasted and the blue mana is gone.

[MXG]

Top 4 Split a 61 player Legacy for Staples event with the following list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle

9 Blue Fetchlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Dismember
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod

I beat Shardless BUG, UR Delver, Elves, and Aggro Loam, then double drew into T8. In the Quarterfinals, I beat Dark & Taxes. The deck was great and I wouldn't change a thing. It's more aggressive than RUG Delver while simultaneously having the sustaining power of BUG Delver. Deathrite + Delver + Bolts is an unreal amount of reach.

[tescrin]

Top 4 Split a 61 player Legacy for Staples event with the following list:

I beat Shardless BUG, UR Delver, Elves, and Aggro Loam, then double drew into T8. In the Quarterfinals, I beat Dark & Taxes. The deck was great and I wouldn't change a thing. It's more aggressive than RUG Delver while simultaneously having the sustaining power of BUG Delver. Deathrite + Delver + Bolts is an unreal amount of reach.

How did your 1-ofs treat you? Would you rather have Gurmags, Snaps, more bolts, 2-of one of them?

[MXG]

How did your 1-ofs treat you? Would you rather have Gurmags, Snaps, more bolts, 2-of one of them?

I liked both Bob and TNN, although Bob did more heavy lifting yesterday, and I won a few games off of my opponent being forced to remove Bob lest they fall behind, while my Delver and Goyf just clock out for a quick lethal. Being able to stretch an opponent's removal in a time sensitive way is extremely valuable, especially when running Stifle, Wasteland, and Daze. TNN, on the other hand, is great for winning through board stalls, resolved Batterskulls, or a plethora of other situations where the deck could otherwise fall apart. The 1-1 split allows me to threaten different angles of attack, making it difficult for the opponent to anticipate what is coming.

I opted not to run Gurmag Angler for two reasons: The first reason is that deck is already relatively soft to Rest in Peace (4x DRS and 4x Goyf), and having more threats that don't care about the Graveyard helps win those sorts of games. This came up in the Quarterfinals. The second reason is that the deck is currently great against Jace, and I didn't want to open up another angle to attack my creature base. I opted not to run SCM for the Graveyard-hate reason, as well.

Since I can't register 5 Lightning Bolt, and the metagame has become very lock-piece-centric, Abrupt Decay is extremely valuable. 4 Lightning Bolt + 2 Abrupt Decay is where it's at, in my opinion.

[ironclad8690]

Is this one of you guys? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378053#online echecetmat35

[Jaytron]

Is this one of you guys? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378053#online echecetmat35

The Jaces are interesting. Has anyone else in the thread been testing with JVP?

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
today I played the Tomas Mar list to a 4:1 at my locals.
MU's were:

Round 1: Burn -> Won 2:1
Round 2: Death & Taxes -> Won 2:0
Round 3: BW Deadguy -> Lost 0:2
Round 4: TES -> Won 2:1
Round 5: BUG Delver -> Won 2:0

I changed the list a bit, here it is:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truth

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ancient Grudge

I did not draw Painful Truths alot but when I drew it then it was good, but I boarded it out against most oponents in G2. It really gives you an edge against Miracles, Shardless BUG or something like NicFit but it's too clunky against faster decks like Delver or taxing decks like DnT. 2 is a fine number right now for me.

The TES MU was super close and I only won because my opponent punted G1 hard, even with 2 additional TS it seemed not that easy, maybe I add a 3rd copie...

The Snapcaster Mage was super all time and sealed the deal against my last round op with BUG Delver after I flashbacked a Bolt ftw...Will defenetly keep him.

All in all the best performing Delver deck I piloted the last couple of month.

Greetings

[ironclad8690]

I made a variation of Silviawataru's 4c deck:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs (Budget replacement for Scalding Tarn)
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat


and took it into a league. So far I have beaten Bob Huang playing a Lands brew (game 3 I probed him and his hand is 2x Misty, 2x Loam, 2x Molten Vortex, 1 Exploration, so I pithing needled Misty which bought me enough time to win with Goyf and 2 Deathrites. I even drew Karakas to bounce just in case he found Marit Mana ^^), and also a Reanimator deck which punted game 1 reanimating something that let me lethal him with DRS when he already had a Griselbrand on board.

[Manipulato]

I made a variation of Silviawataru's 4c deck:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs (Budget replacement for Scalding Tarn)
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat


and took it into a league. So far I have beaten Bob Huang playing a Lands brew (game 3 I probed him and his hand is 2x Misty, 2x Loam, 2x Molten Vortex, 1 Exploration, so I pithing needled Misty which bought me enough time to win with Goyf and 2 Deathrites. I even drew Karakas to bounce just in case he found Marit Mana ^^), and also a Reanimator deck which punted game 1 reanimating something that let me lethal him with DRS when he already had a Griselbrand on board.

I´m not sure if I want to play a Delver deck which has such a weak G1 against combo decks, and even in G2&3 it doesnt get way better...The manabase is also really suboptimal, the badlands has to go for sure and instead you should play a 2nd Volcanic, the Catacombs are also bad but ok if you dont have the tarns...

I changed my MD meanwhile too and am now trying 2 TNN, 1 Sylvan Library & the 4th Bolt instead of the 2 Painful Truths 1 Snapy & 1 Kolaghans Command and till now I like it...This build is slightly worse against Miracles & Shardless because you lose 2 Truths but Library & the TNN´s are still solid...I also added the 4th Wasteland after that MD changes because without the 2 truths & command etc your casting costs in view of colors gets better (truth Needs 3 different Colors, Command 2 & Snapy 2). I really liked the changes till now...

[blablub]

Hey,
someone of you knows what the guys at the Prague Eternal Event played? i saw Thomas Mar and another guy on Camera but cant get the correct lists. Especially the list with confis looks interesting :)

[Manipulato]

Hey,
someone of you knows what the guys at the Prague Eternal Event played? i saw Thomas Mar and another guy on Camera but cant get the correct lists. Especially the list with confis looks interesting :)

The Top 8 lists will be posted here http://www.pragueeternal.com/
They're not online atm...

Tomas Mar played his SCM, Painful Truths list which you can find here http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19305&iddeck=146792

[blablub]

Ahh thanks :)

I think Thomas has some changes. i'm pretty sure that i saw a baleful Strix in his Deck while he was sideboarding. I think i will test his build because i like to draw extra cards :D not sure about the K-Command though

[Manipulato]

Hey guys, today the top 8 lists from Prague Eternal got published and heres the 4c Delver list which made Top 8.

Martin Hrycej


4 Delver of secrets
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Daze
4 Force of will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Painful truths
1 Sylvan library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt decay

2 Spell pierce
1 Thoughtseize

2 Tropial island
2 Underground sea
2 Volcanic island
1 Taiga
4 Misty rainforest
4 Scalding tarn
4 Wasteland

Side:
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace the mind sculptor
2 Pyroblast
2 Grim lavamancer
1 Ancient grudge
1 Life from the loam
1 Golgari charm
1 Darkblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null rod
1 Terminate

Really interesting choices...I like that he's just playing 1 Painful Truths MD because I played 2 turneys now with 2 copies MD and it's really really clunky & tough to get full value out of it because of the 3 colors you need at the same time.
I think it's long ago that I saw Dark Confidant in a 4c shell but no doubt he's strong. I really dont like the Taiga at all, if he really decides to play a non-blue dual land he just should run Bayou instead because a 3rd source of black & green mana is way more Important than a 3rd red source.

Overall a more "controlish" value build of the deck but I quite like it as long as he's not playing against Eldrazi...

What do you guys think?

[blablub]

Thanks for Sharing.

I will give it a try today, the same 75. Some choices are looking greedy. For Example Terminate. But I'm really excited over the Grim Lavamancers because i'm allways looking for an answer against Death/Taxes and Elves at the same time. All the 1offs might be really cool. Looking forward to test it.

[Manipulato]

Thanks for Sharing.

I will give it a try today, the same 75. Some choices are looking greedy. For Example Terminate. But I'm really excited over the Grim Lavamancers because i'm allways looking for an answer against Death/Taxes and Elves at the same time. All the 1offs might be really cool. Looking forward to test it.

Looking forward to your testing, let us know how it went, I´m curious...

Grim Lavamancer is good for sure but I´m not completley sure if I want a removal like this becaue it´s really GY dependent and has a bit of a antisynergie with Goyf & Shamans...Especially DnT has revokers to shut him off and board in 3 RIP G2&3 so this shuts him off too...And against Elves he just can be to slow...

I´m really happy with 2 Golgari Charm because it hits everything not matter if they have Revoker, RIP, Mother or whatever...It´s also more fast against such decks because it´s just a 2 mana one sided wrath of god in most situations...

The Jace in the SB is also unnecessary in my opinion because the deck is really good suited for more longer value games for a Delver deck already and Jace is really clunky. If he wants another value slot in the SB for Miracles & Shardless I would play a 2nd copie of Painful Truths...

[blablub]

Just won the whole thing with 4-0 (Shardless, Burn, Miracles, U/R Control)
Confidants are so awesome! I think i will stay with these. The Jace was also nice, but not really needed. I think after postboard with all these hatecards you are so far ahead of miracles.
I liked the lavamancers as well. They were good against Shardless, especially against all their Shamans, Strixes etc
I think i will change the Terminate to Go for the Throat. Just because of the better Mana. Maybe you want a second Copy of the hard removal Spell against Eldrazi
The weakest cards are the Pierces. Maybe i cut one for a Snare. Hardcounter for Goyf, Balance and RiP seems good to me.

[Manipulato]

Just won the whole thing with 4-0 (Shardless, Burn, Miracles, U/R Control)
Confidants are so awesome! I think i will stay with these. The Jace was also nice, but not really needed. I think after postboard with all these hatecards you are so far ahead of miracles.
I liked the lavamancers as well. They were good against Shardless, especially against all their Shamans, Strixes etc
I think i will change the Terminate to Go for the Throat. Just because of the better Mana. Maybe you want a second Copy of the hard removal Spell against Eldrazi
The weakest cards are the Pierces. Maybe i cut one for a Snare. Hardcounter for Goyf, Balance and RiP seems good to me.

Cool man, congratz!
Sad that you never played against a creature deck like Elves & DnT...Eldrazi would have been also really interesting to see...

My experience with Pierce in 4c Delver were also solala, but they're too important in combo MU'S and super against burn, they were also really strong against 4c loam, I think 2 copies just have to stay because otherwise we were ending in a 4c midrange random pile deck...

I'm currently testing 2 TNN & 1 Library MD and the TNN was everytime a game winner against DnT or Maverick but a bit slow & clunky against Grixis Delver for example, will test it more tonight against my friends. ..

[Isre Morn]

Hey guys, I'm only a few steps away from jumping on the 4c Delver Train, trying to get the last cards together the next 2 months.


Just won the whole thing with 4-0 (Shardless, Burn, Miracles, U/R Control)
Confidants are so awesome! I think i will stay with these. The Jace was also nice, but not really needed. I think after postboard with all these hatecards you are so far ahead of miracles.
I liked the lavamancers as well. They were good against Shardless, especially against all their Shamans, Strixes etc
I think i will change the Terminate to Go for the Throat. Just because of the better Mana. Maybe you want a second Copy of the hard removal Spell against Eldrazi
The weakest cards are the Pierces. Maybe i cut one for a Snare. Hardcounter for Goyf, Balance and RiP seems good to me.

Nice finish, did you also play with the Taiga? Would you cut or replace it with e.g. Bayou as Manipulato pondered?

I personally like to see at least the one Thoughtseize in that guys MD, cause I'm planning to start my 4c Delver experiment with two of them MD. Didn't see no lists with Thoughtseize MD so far.

[blablub]

Thanks man :)

hm, your argument as regards Pierce is an argument Pro-Snare. Against the only relevant Combodeck Storm, Spell Snare is much better then Pierce. The Same goes for 4c Loam. Even against Burn a hard Counter for Price and Eidolon is really good ;) Spell Pierce becomes dead so fast. Especially in this "more grindy" Approach. I think a 1/1 Split might be worth it.

Maybe the Jace-Slot should be another sweeper or another removalspell for big Creatures. But i was really impressed by those Lavamancers

Thoughtseize as a 1-off seems cool. There are some Situations where the one Thoughtseize can win you the game. Timing is the most important. I think Sam Black wrotes an article about Discard some time ago with the same in mind.

The only reason for the Taiga is that you want to cast all your spells out of 2 mana. With a Bayou in this slot you can't cast Abrupt Decay. I think if you dont need this, just play blue Duals only. I've tested this alot the last years and there is no correct choice because both have their own Pros and Cons. While i'm not a huge fan of the "playing style" argument, i think this is a case where this argument is correct.

[Isre Morn]

The only reason for the Taiga is that you want to cast all your spells out of 2 mana. With a Bayou in this slot you can't cast Abrupt Decay. I think if you dont need this, just play blue Duals only. I've tested this alot the last years and there is no correct choice because both have their own Pros and Cons. While i'm not a huge fan of the "playing style" argument, i think this is a case where this argument is correct.

Yeah, I'll just begin with the 2/2/2 split with 8 Fetches and 4 Wastelands and see how it feels with adding more Fetches or Taiga in mind. I'm curious to see in what configurations my favored playstile will result :)

[blablub]

Yeah, I'll just begin with the 2/2/2 split with 8 Fetches and 4 Wastelands and see how it feels with adding more Fetches or Taiga in mind. I'm curious to see in what configurations my favored playstile will result :)

Of course you can do it. But keep in mind that you allways need green to deploy your threads. So i feel its risky with just two Tropicals. The first "burg-manabase" a few years ago was 7 fetches and 3 Tropicals.
But two might be also ok. It's just my personal opinion.

[Sloshthedark]

What do you guys think?

he won Friday trial with it and left after top 4 split in the ME, dunno his MUs though

[Manipulato]

Hi all,
today I played our locals and went 5:0 in 1st place.

MU's were

Round 1: Burn (Won 2:0)

Round 2: Solidarity/High Tide combo (Won 2:0)

Round 3: Death & Taxes (Won 2:0)

Round 4: Junk Rock (Won 2:0)

Round 5: Elves (Won 2:0)

I played this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths

The deck performed like a hot knife through butter! TNN is just bonkers against Death&Taxes and I would never play less than 2 golgari charm in the SB. Spell Pierce was very important against Burn, Junk & High Tide combo and defenetly better than spell snare for example like discussed earlier.

I tested this list 2 days before the tournament against my friends and these were the results:

Eldrazi -> Won 4:0 (including 2 SB games)
Lands -> Won 3:0 (including 2 SB games)
UG Infect -> Won 3:1 (including 2 SB games)

So I had a really good week with the build and was quite confidant for the turney today.

I think the deck has 4 flex slots which should be changed dependent on the meta you expect. In my list that would be 2 TNN 1 Library the 3rd Abrupt Decay.

We played the whole day streaming on twitch but I only played the game against DnT on camera because I didnt wanted to lose my focus while take care of lifepoints etc on the stream system...

[blablub]

Congratz,

Of Course, True-Name is awesome against D/T and i dont want to talk about its weaknesses because its very obvious. If i expect alot of D/T, Junk, Maverick and stuff like that i will play them too ;)

a friend of mine is testing a classical build with Mungos and Stifle, this might be solid as well, not sure about the Stifles though.

Regarding your List, if you go to play the 7th Removalspell i might play a Dismember Main. I feel its good to have maindeck-out against Gurmag Angler, which is a real problem. Otherwise the Grixis MU is just a Free-Win because of Goyfs. i dont think its correct to play without Flusterstorms but i'm huge Fan of Thoughtseizes. I thought about replacing the Pierces with Thoughtseizes because as i allready mentioned Pierces dont work well for me.

Whats the Twitch channel of your Legacy Tourney? :)

[Manipulato]

Congratz,

Of Course, True-Name is awesome against D/T and i dont want to talk about its weaknesses because its very obvious. If i expect alot of D/T, Junk, Maverick and stuff like that i will play them too ;)

a friend of mine is testing a classical build with Mungos and Stifle, this might be solid as well, not sure about the Stifles though.

Regarding your List, if you go to play the 7th Removalspell i might play a Dismember Main. I feel its good to have maindeck-out against Gurmag Angler, which is a real problem. Otherwise the Grixis MU is just a Free-Win because of Goyfs. i dont think its correct to play without Flusterstorms but i'm huge Fan of Thoughtseizes. I thought about replacing the Pierces with Thoughtseizes because as i allready mentioned Pierces dont work well for me.

Whats the Twitch channel of your Legacy Tourney? :)

I played 2 Flusterstorm in the SB at the last 2 turneys but I wanted to attack combo especially TES/ANT on another angle, so I made room for 2/3 Thoughtseize...
Having "only" counterspells against storm is ok but far from good...
1 Dismember MD is good if you expect more anglers but my local store has no Grixis Delver or 4c Delver Player exept for me, so I lean on the 3rd Abrupt Decay because it's just way more flexible and also good against Eldrazi (Chalice, Thorn, Mimic, Endless One, Revoker, Jitte etc).
It's also very important to get rid of Counterbalance and I missed the 3rd copie in the past when I played just 2.

Another reason for me not to play Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce is that Show & Tell decks are not dead and I faced it 3 times at my last 2 turneys (exept for the last one). I had a 2/2 split with Pierce/Snare and most of the time I wished it would have been a Pierce exept for the Loam MU I faced.

I really dont like the oldschool list with Stifle & Mungos because it's just outdated for me, TNN or Gurmag Angler are just more powerful than the mungo and he gets outclased very often...
Those lists were also less aggressive because of 4 Delver 4 Deathrite 4 Mungos and no goyfs, Angler or TNN's which uses the tempo game less and gives your opponent more time...

Our stream is heldenschmiedeKe on twitch but the videos are not online atm, will be done next days by a friend of mine.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
any recent results from the 4c front? Blablub have to played/tested the prague eternal list again?

[Isre Morn]

Heyho, I'm planning to play BURG for the first time in my current life at our local legacy event in about 2 weeks, which will also take place for the first time this year.

Haven't seen most of the guys for quite a longer time, but I expect decks like Burn, Patriot, Death & Taxes, Dark Maverick, Miracles, BG NicFit, Elves, Storm, Painter, 12 Post and Reanimator.

This is what I tinkered together today:

Main:

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Floodes Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

4 Wasteland

2 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

Side:

1 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Go for the Throat
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast

[Manipulato]

Hey burg'ers :smile:

Today I played our locals and went in 1st place again with 4:1

15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle

My MU's today were super strange and dodged Miracles & Lands all day.

Round 1: Junk Won 2:0 (Without Goyf but with Lingering Souls)

Round 2: NicFit Lost 0:2 (BGW build with 4 Siege Rhino + 3 Restoration Angel)

Round 3: Burn Won 2:0 (2 Sulfuric Vortex + 2 Pyrostatic Pillar MD)

Round 4: Infect Won 2:0 (Ugw build with 2 RIP + 2 Swords to Plowshares in the SB)

Round 5: Slivers Won 2:1 (Counterslivers with 4 Cavern 4 Vial 4 Mutavault MD)

The 2 Invasive Surgery were completley useless and will add the 2nd Surgical Extraction again for 1 Surgery. If I would have been faced Miracles & lands it would have been better MU's for the card but ok things came different.

Dark Confidant were really good and drew me lots of shiny magic cards even if I boarded him out in 3 MU´s but TNN & the 1off Painful Truth which I played in those slots before would have been boarded out too.

I really like the MD but the SB has to be changed.

Greetings

[Jaytron]

Congrats on your results!

Would you mind sharing your boarding strategies vs these matchups?

[Manipulato]

Congrats on your results!

Would you mind sharing your boarding strategies vs these matchups?

Thx, yes of course but let me do this tommorrow, I'm too tired now :laugh:

[Manipulato]

Congrats on your results!

Would you mind sharing your boarding strategies vs these matchups?

So here are my boarding strategies for the turney yesterday:

Vs Junk (BGW build with Lingering Souls instead of Tarmogoyf, he also played 2 Gurmag Angler)
Otd
-2 Pierce -2 FoW -2 Daze
+ 2 Thoughtseize +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Dismember +2 Golgari Charm

Vs Nic Fit (BGW build with 4 Siege Rhino & 3 Restoration Angel MD)
Otp
- 2 Bolt - 1 AD - 1 Daze -1 Wasteland
+ 2 Thoughtseize + 1 Dismember + 1 Golgari Charm +1 Edict

Vs Burn (Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Eidolon & 2 Sulfuric Vortex 4 Flame Rift MD)
Otd
- 3 Dark Confidant
+ 2 Invasive Surgery +1 Golgari Charm

Vs Infect (Ugw build with RIP & Swords to Plowshares in SB)
Otd
- 3 Dark Confidant -1 Daze
+ 2 Golgari Charm + 1 Pithing Needle + 1 Dismember

Vs Slivers (Aether Vial, Cavern, Mutavault build)
Otp/Otd
-3 Dark Confidant -3 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Thoughtseize + 1 Pithing Needle + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Dismember + 1 Edict

I´m not 100% sure about the boardings because this list is quite new for me but in general I leave in a couple of FoW´s even if I play against BGx decks just because we´re still a tempo deck and boarding out all of our counters will put us on the same level as them just with a bit of weaker cards, same for the Shardless BUG MU.

I found the sideboarding quite difficult with this list because in the most MU´s the MD was already solid, I think I have to work on a perfect plan for the most common MU´s near future.
I had many situations where I wanted to bring in more cards than I wanted to take out...

[Isre Morn]

I had many situations where I wanted to bring in more cards than I wanted to take out...

The same is actually true for me. Many ex opponents (mostly pilots of fair decks) wondered how many cards I brought in postboard against them, as I played RUG Delver yet. In my opinion the choices weren't totally absurd. And most of the time they understood them. Ok, I see that a Rough // Tumble against Shardless BUG was more a thinking of Magic Wonderland to hit Shardless and Shaman 2 for 1. I guess this problem is more my lack of experience in Legacy and therefore against all the therein associated decks. A local player gave me the advice, that the chosen cards postboard have to improve the matchups clearly and shouldn't be just a bizarre "win more". Sounds easy for experienced players, but for a beginner like me it's a bit more difficult at first sight. I'm curious about next Friday, when piloting my first BURG list at our locals. I guess similar problems will show up again, as I want my sideboard (perhaps also mainboard ^^) to show up a wider variety of useful cards. I'll see :)

[Jaytron]

So here are my boarding strategies for the turney yesterday:

Vs Junk (BGW build with Lingering Souls instead of Tarmogoyf, he also played 2 Gurmag Angler)
Otd
-2 Pierce -2 FoW -2 Daze
+ 2 Thoughtseize +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Dismember +2 Golgari Charm

Vs Nic Fit (BGW build with 4 Siege Rhino & 3 Restoration Angel MD)
Otp
- 2 Bolt - 1 AD - 1 Daze -1 Wasteland
+ 2 Thoughtseize + 1 Dismember + 1 Golgari Charm +1 Edict

Vs Burn (Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Eidolon & 2 Sulfuric Vortex 4 Flame Rift MD)
Otd
- 3 Dark Confidant
+ 2 Invasive Surgery +1 Golgari Charm

Vs Infect (Ugw build with RIP & Swords to Plowshares in SB)
Otd
- 3 Dark Confidant -1 Daze
+ 2 Golgari Charm + 1 Pithing Needle + 1 Dismember

Vs Slivers (Aether Vial, Cavern, Mutavault build)
Otp/Otd
-3 Dark Confidant -3 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Thoughtseize + 1 Pithing Needle + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Dismember + 1 Edict

I´m not 100% sure about the boardings because this list is quite new for me but in general I leave in a couple of FoW´s even if I play against BGx decks just because we´re still a tempo deck and boarding out all of our counters will put us on the same level as them just with a bit of weaker cards, same for the Shardless BUG MU.

I found the sideboarding quite difficult with this list because in the most MU´s the MD was already solid, I think I have to work on a perfect plan for the most common MU´s near future.
I had many situations where I wanted to bring in more cards than I wanted to take out...

Thanks for sharing!

Yeah, I'm working on a big list of SB strats myself for Grixis Delver, haha.

[Manipulato]

Thanks for sharing!

Yeah, I'm working on a big list of SB strats myself for Grixis Delver, haha.

Forget Grixis, come to the greedy side of Delver :wink:

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, DeathBlade and Reanimator player here who wants to fit a tempo deck into his repertoire. After poking around this thread for a bit, I wanted to run a list by you guys that doesn't run Tarmogoyfs because, well, I don't own any.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Dark Confidant
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

1 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Fire Covenant
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge


Without Goyfs, I figure I need more disruption to buy myself time to establish a clock. Hence the maindeck Thoughtseizes against combo and the seventh removal spell (Dismember) against creature decks. Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library are veritable "must answers" at the :2:-drop slot in Goyf's absence. Maybe Library should become a second Bob because it attacks, but I'm not sure. Library is so good.

Also, should I be playing Stifle with no Goyfs? Maybe messing up my opponent's mana is correct in lieu of tapping out for a T2 beatstick. That would bridge the gap to my top-end threats. I've never loved Stifle, but maybe it's right with my creature base.

I'm running 19 lands because of two True-Name Nemesis and sideboard Fire Covenant and Vendilion Clique. Maybe the third Underground Sea should be a ninth fetch to fuel Gurmag Angler instead.

24 blue cards might be on the lower side for a Delver deck, especially with a quarter of them being threats, but if BUG Delver can get away with 20ish, I think I can swing 24. Also, 27 spells to flip Delver seems fine, too, right?

The sideboard is probably complete garbage because I've never sleeved up this deck and don't know its strengths and weaknesses yet. I'm sure y'all will tell me.

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

[Jaytron]

TBH if your problem is "no goyfs" you should be over in the Grixis thread.

No goyf or Young P is pretty horrible. You will put little to no pressure on your opponent, so your tempo plays won't really do much.

The answer to the "i have no goyfs" problem is pretty much "run young peezy"

[Jandrosaurus]

Are you seriously advocating adding more Bobs to a deck that runs FoW AND zombie fish? lolwut.

As Jaytron said, if you don't have goyfs, you want to be playing grixis delver. The deck you are suggesting has anti synergy and is really unfocused. TNN, Library, and TS are not tempo cards.

[Manipulato]

@ the monster: Hans Jakob Goddik established a 4c no goyf list with 3 TNN 2 Snapcaster Mage 3 DTT & 3 Thoughtseize and won big tournaments with it (Danish Legacy Master for example) & I played this list too back at GP Lille last year and went Top 4 in the last chance trial & 6:3 in the mainevent but this were the DTT era with a completley different meta than now. Such a version played more like 4c midrange than 4c Delver because if you missed the delver opening you were just super slow & grindy.

After GP Lille I switched to the Goyf version and were more happy with it just because your clock & manacurve is much faster/smoother. This is just very important against all sorts of combo and even against Elves or Burn etc...

If you have no Goyfs I would get those or just play Grixis Delver, it's a really good deck too.
Delver archetypes just need good 2 drop beaters like Goyf or YP otherwise you are just to slow and your own dazes timewalks you...That's also the reason why I switched my 2 TNN for 2 Dark Confidant recently, Daze becomes just way worse with 3 drops.

And if you're deciding to play Dark Confidant MD you have to cut those Anglers because how said earlier this is just super risky even if the card says "Greatness at ANY cost" :wink:

[Isre Morn]

Hey BURG-guys,

just came home from the already mentioned locals. I'm more than satisfied that I brought in the B splash from RUG to BURG. Never want to change this back. We were 12 people with 4 round swiss. My result was 3:1 and I ended up at 3rd place. Took home a Thoughtseize from Theros. I reached wins against Tin Fins (2:1), Burn (2:0) and GW Lands (2:0) and one loss against Jund (1:2). Other decks I registrated in the room were e.g. D&T, 12 Post, BG NicFit, Merfolk and Mono B Control. Also I had a very nice dice roll luck today - won them all :D

Here is the list I played:

Maindeck:

1 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder

Sideboard:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Flusterstorm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Winter Orb
2 Golgari Charm

Round 1 - Tin Fins (2:1)

Game 1 OTP - The Deck does what it has to do. A resolved Delver and Shaman do the job quickly, while he got stock on multiple Gitaxian Probes without seeing a sort of interaction beside Cabal Therapy. Finally I disrupt his
only attempt to bring a Griselbrand onto the battlefield.

Game 2 OTD - After I managed to counter again his early attempts to bring a Griselbrand onto the battlefield, I made a huge misplay by not immediately Thoughtseizing him with only 1 card left in hand, which I guessed was crap. No it wasn't, it was another Shallow Grave - FUCK. He gets him onto the battlefield and to my surprise he activates his draw ability two times, attacks and then sacrifices him for flashbacking Cabal Therapy. The Thoughtseize in my hand is now long dead and I lose to Emrakul.

Boarding was:
+1 Diabolic Edict / +1 Flusterstorm / +1 Go for the Throat / +1 Grafigger's Cage / +1 Invasive Surgery / +1 Surgical Extraction / +1 Pithing Needle / -1 Forked Bolt / -2 Abrupt Decay / -4 Lightning Bolt

Game 3 OTP - Turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage, Counterspells and an unanswered Goyf do the job for me quickly.
My Boarding kept unchanged.

Round 2 - Burn (2:0)

Game 1 OTP - First I get rid of his Goblin Guides and Monastery Swift Spears. A well played Goyf (4/5) finally saves me the game. In my eyes he made the mistake that he threw everything in my face instead of trying to get rid of the monster. But the game was thight anyway. 2 FoWs save my life from getting Price of Progressed.

Game 2 OTD - Delver after Delver after True-Name Nemesis kill him slow but for sure. This game was also tight.
To my luck the Wastelands which I didn't boarded out now save my life from getting Price of Progressed.

Boarding was:
+1 Flusterstorm / +1 Invasive Surgery / +1 Diabolic Edict / +1 Go for the Throat / -4 Daze

Round 3 - Jund (1:2) - My opponent finally reached the 1st place

Game 1 OTP - Goyfs, Shamans and TNN do the job while I hinder him from getting anything done.

Game 2 OTD - In this game I made the next huge mistake of Decaying his Liliana of the Veil instead of his recently resolved Sylvan Library. Therewith he recovers quickly and makes real, real preasure with additionally Dark Confidants and Punishing Fire activations. I can't win the race and lose.

Boarding was:
+1 Diabolic Edict / +1 Go for the Throat / +1 Life from the Loam / +1 Surgical Extraction / +1 Vendilion Clique / +1 Pithing Needle / -4 Daze / -2 Force of Will

Game 3 OTP - I had him at 5 life, but he slowly recovers with multiple Punishing Fire activations and me only drawing Delvers and Shamans. I finally die to a 5/6 Tarmogoyf.

Altough I was OTP I didn't change the Boarding, because I thought 2 FoWs however would be better than only 2 Dazes.

Round 4 - GW Lands (2:0)

Strange build. Never saw that sort of color combination with Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage Combo next to Constant Mists and Wrath of God.

Game 1 - OTP - After Force of Willing an early Crop Rotation, which was game WIN retrospectively my Deathrite Shaman slowly brings him to death, while I play further Wastelands and counters correctly. Exploration got immediately struck by an Abrupt Decay. He never reaches the Dark Depths Combo and his Wrath of Gods do not resolve. Never drew any other creature ^^.

Game 2 - OTD - All in all I drew the nuts. First I take the risk and play a Sylvan Library with tapping me out altough I held a Spell Pierce in hand for a possible Crop Rotation. But I do it and this decision wins me the game. Because of my early enchantment I managed to draw an Abrupt Decay for his Exploration followed by a Null Rod for his Divining Top followed by a Pithing Needle for his multiple Maze of Iths. Goyf and Delver hit hard while he sits there and can't do anything.

Boarding was:
+1 Diabolic Edict / +1 Invasive Surgery / +1 Life from the Loam / +1 Null Rod / +1 Pithing Needle / +1 Surgical Extraction / +1 Golgari Charm / +1 Vendilion Clique / -3 Daze / -1 Forked Bolt / -4 Lighting Bolt

After the match I asked him why he doesn't play Life from the Loam, because I never saw it, but always expected it and therefore played more confidently. He said he plays them of course as a 4-off but never drew them although he constantly digged through his library with his Divining Tops all day, all night long. Well, this sounds like real magic.

Overall I was quite happy with my configuration. The single Thoughtseize - if played correctly got me a lot ahead in most situations - also True-Name Nemesis. Forked Bolt as Bolt #5 and 2 Spell Pierce were also ok. I primarily played the 2 Stifles for saving my duals from getting wasted, which helped me a lot in the Lands matchup. Unfortunately I never drew the Gurmag Angler which I wanted to test as a 1-off. And yeah, personally I'm a huge fan of Sylvan Library (pre- and postboard). SB-cards I drew but could never really use unfortunately were Invasive Surgery and Go for the Throat. Cards I never boarded in today were Ancient Grudge, REB and the 2nd Golgari Charm. Matchups like D&T or Merfolk would have cried for them.

[Manipulato]

# haloquaero: Gratz to the good finish. TinFins & burn are good MU's in my experience & Jund can be tough but winnable. I'm not a huge fan of Angler in a Shaman/Goyf build and would replace him with the 4th Goyf or a 2nd TNN.

A 3rd AD in the SB would also be good just because Miracles is so much played, 2 can be to low here...It's also just a swiss knife and the reason for me to play this over Grixis. Never dead exept for combo.

A 19th land would also be more solid just because the manacurve is a bit higher than in RUG or Grixis and 4c means that oposing Wastelands hurts us more than a 3 color Delver deck.

Your sideboarding against burn is wrong in my opinion. Boarding out all 4 dazes in such a fast MU shows the winner within the first 4 turns and Daze shines here! It's also not needed to bring in the 8th + 9th removal spell just for his 10-12 creatures. Sylvan & TS have to go after boarding. I'm also not a fan of boarding them out completley against Jund, bolt on shaman & Wasteland on a dual keep daze long enough strong to keep minimum 2 copies in.

But all in all a reasonable list.

Keep up burg'in

[Isre Morn]

# haloquaero: Gratz to the good finish. TinFins & burn are good MU's in my experience & Jund can be tough but winnable. I'm not a huge fan of Angler in a Shaman/Goyf build and would replace him with the 4th Goyf or a 2nd TNN.

A 3rd AD in the SB would also be good just because Miracles is so much played, 2 can be to low here...It's also just a swiss knife and the reason for me to play this over Grixis. Never dead exept for combo.

A 19th land would also be more solid just because the manacurve is a bit higher than in RUG or Grixis and 4c means that oposing Wastelands hurts us more than a 3 color Delver deck.

Your sideboarding against burn is wrong in my opinion. Boarding out all 4 dazes in such a fast MU shows the winner within the first 4 turns and Daze shines here! It's also not needed to bring in the 8th + 9th removal spell just for his 10-12 creatures. Sylvan & TS have to go after boarding. I'm also not a fan of boarding them out completley against Jund, bolt on shaman & Wasteland on a dual keep daze long enough strong to keep minimum 2 copies in.

But all in all a reasonable list.
Keep up burg'in

Thanks for your lines.

I agree, with RUG Delver before Reanimator and Burn were already good matchups for me.

Regarding the Zombie Fish I know that at first sight he acts against Shaman and Goyf. But his pros are being Decayproof (Hello Jund / Shardless BUG) and he potentially can be cast off with 1 mana. Further the opponent also has his graveyard and ours can still be refilled. I say this because I know two BURG pilots that drive their Gurmag lists with regular success. But in the utter end you have to decide between Goyf and Zombie Fish. Until now my own gut feeling votes more for the Goyf and in terms of mid to late game action plus pinging spot removal for the unblockable TNN (Hello D&T). Therefore I wanted to test the Gurmag Angler in practice.

I'm already planning to integrate a 3rd Decay and a 3rd Spell Pierce into my Main to improve the fair and combo MUs G1. Same goes for a 9th or even 10th fetch land to smooth things up a bit. Of courcce this decision leaves less room for any 1-offs like Forked Bolt or Thoughtseize and the Stifles, that also can often be sweet. I'll see.

I also understand your sideboarding thoughts. In the Burn matchup I had the weird advisement to bring in the hard removal for his creatures only to save my bolts for his face. I totally agree that a Sylvan Library and a Thoughtseize have to go in this MU, but yesterday I didn't recognize this. I also see the argument for keeping some Dazes in for the Jund MU. For the next time I'll keep your advices in mind.

[blablub]

There is no problem with running something like 3 Goyfs 2 Gurmags, you can give it a try ;)

I have still the problem if i need shroud creatures. Ive lost too many games to Sword, Sword, Snapcaster Sword recently. But Mungos sucks so hard against Thoghtknot Seer.
The same goes for Stifle. In some MatchUps they are awesome and in the others they suck :(

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,

I will play the MKM Series in Frankfurt this Weekend and GP Prague next month and am not still 100% sold on my exact list, would like to hear some opinions...

This is my current list which is very near the same like on my last turney which I ended 4:1...

15 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle

I´m not sure if I should play
2 TNN
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember

instead of

3 Dark Confidant
1 AD
1 Spell Pierce

I played the TNN´s the turney before and they were very good but I dont like the antisynergy with Daze which slows him down in matter of casting speed and Bobi is also solid against combo in general. Both of them are solid against Miralces & Shardless but which one do you guys think is better in those MU´s? TNN just won me super many games against DnT for example which was very tough before him...

I recognized that I boarded in the TS alot in my last 2-3 turneys so I thought about a 2/2 splitt between TS & Pierce MD. It would also up the FoW & Delver count +1.
1 Dismember instead of the 3rd AD MD would alow me to improve the Eldrazi MU a bit because then I´m able to handle TNS/Smasher and it would also be a out against Gurmag Angler in Grixis which is a very common deck. The downside would be that I´m more soft to Countertop from the Miracles Player and it´s also way less flexible in MU´s like DnT which is also quite common here in germany.

This change would improve the blue count for FoW, the Delver flip count, the MU against DnT (because of TNN) and I get 2 new Slots in my SB which I would fill with a Life from the Loam and a 3rd TS maybe.

How do you guys think about it?
I want to be prepared for Miracles, Shardless, Eldrazi, Grixis Delver, Infect, DnT & combo in general

[Druz91]

@Manipulato: hi, I'm quite interested in the way you developed the deck, and i'd ask you what do you think about this md changes:

-1 dark confidant
+1 True-Name Nemesis

-1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Dismember

-1 spell pierce
+1 sylvan library

This way you could still afford:
- 4 cc1 removal spells (3 bolt+1 dismember)

- 4 heavy removal spells (3 decay+1 dismember)

- 3 card advantage enablers (2 confidant+1 library )

-1 more creature for grindy matchups

-the blue count is the same as in your list

About maindecking thoughtseize, since you already have confidant and other painful spells like dismember MD , i'd like to run it in the SB for dedicated mus.
Let me know what do you think about it.
My 2 cents

Inviato dal mio SM-A300FU utilizzando Tapatalk

[Manipulato]

@Manipulato: hi, I'm quite interested in the way you developed the deck, and i'd ask you what do you think about this md changes:

-1 dark confidant
+1 True-Name Nemesis

-1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Dismember

-1 spell pierce
+1 sylvan library

This way you could still afford:
- 4 cc1 removal spells (3 bolt+1 dismember)

- 4 heavy removal spells (3 decay+1 dismember)

- 3 card advantage enablers (2 confidant+1 library )

-1 more creature for grindy matchups

-the blue count is the same as in your list

About maindecking thoughtseize, since you already have confidant and other painful spells like dismember MD , i'd like to run it in the SB for dedicated mus.
Let me know what do you think about it.
My 2 cents

Inviato dal mio SM-A300FU utilizzando Tapatalk

Thx for your input.
The changes would be ok exept for the cut of the 4th Lightning Bolt, there are many MU'S where Dismember is just dead & Lightning Bolt does something (killing Jace for example) even if it's just 3 damage in your face. Bolt also close out games...
I think I will move the 3rd AD to the SB for the 1off Dismember and 1 TNN for the 3rd Bobi.
I would probably cut the 3rd Pierce for the 1 Thoughtseize just because the Delver count stays the same and I dont want to end like Team America with 23 flip cards.
This would also free up one SB slot.

[Isre Morn]

Heyho,

I'm also going to show up at the MKM series in Frankfurt on sunday :smile: @Manipulato: Perhaps we should build up a BURG corner :wink: ... Regarding the 2 Painful Truths in your Sideboard, don't you think with the two Dark Confidants and one Sylvan Library the Card Advantage Aspect isn't already enough, or is it significantly relevant in Match Ups like Miracles / Shardless / etc.?

Here is my latest list for the event:

19 Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

13 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

28 Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
2 Stifle

Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Terminate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Quite not sure about the 2 Stifles MD yet. As "blablub" already mentioned, sometimes they're huge, sometimes they're meeh... But they can have so many useful targets... Would someone request a change this way?

All in all I'm curious about to see how the deck feeling will change by adding any Dark Confidants / Snapcaster Mages / Grim Lavamancers (which all I currently don't own) in the future for me.

BURG'in goes on :cool:

[Manipulato]

# Haloquaero: The thing is that I have so many stuff to board out against Miracles for example that I need enough good cards to bring in, that's one reason for 2 Truths in the SB.
The 2nd reason is that most of the value engine is creatures based (Dark Confidant) and a Terminus or Sword into SCM for example would not just shut down my offensive it would also shut down my long game plan. I also really want to draw 1-2 value engines per game in such MU's. They're also great in BGx MU's in general (Jund, Junk, NicFit).

I really dont like Stifle as a 2off, in my opinion you should run 3-4 or none. Just my 2 cents.

Maybe we can talk from face to face in Frankfurt :smile:
2 bUrg'ers against the world :wink:

[Isre Morn]

I really dont like Stifle as a 2off, in my opinion you should run 3-4 or none. Just my 2 cents.


OK then, I'll give the Stifleless build a try - with playing 4c card decisions are not getting easier ^^

Regarding the sunday in Frankfurt we may arrange a meeting on site with PMs.

Cya!

[NegatorITA]

fell in love with Manipulato latest decklist (the one on tc decks)

I personally love the deck, but when I showed it to a friend he said:
Why should I play this with goyf, rathern than grixis with angler?

I was like, well, because it's cooler! and I can cast goyf anytime, but otherwise I was a bit unpreparred.

So, what really make the deck worthy over grixis?
I've all the cards, so honestly I made some game with the list lately, and I found Confidant a real powerhouse. Drawing so many cards from t2 in a delver deck really change things.

I would probably too cut one, but I'm still unsure, having three means we can actually cast it "early" rathen than having to find it later on.
To cut one confidant, we should put something that really gives advantage, I could think to singleton angler or nemesis, but I don't seem to like either, maybe a vendilion clique?

Another thing I personally hate is running only 3 decay, but that's me and my nature of jund player, also, here in italy there are way too many miracles... or eldrazi...

Have you ever considered a singleton Kolaghan's command? seems nice on paper, cutting chalice, batterskull, and acting as a bolt like spell... plus it can discard on istant or recoup a goyf/bob/delver:
One I've seen one of my local players playing one instead of a bolt, looks nice on paper (on paper only though, for sure it's a powerful card but I wonder how it fares in real, may give it a go)

What about cutting the invasive surgery on side?
Invasive surgery was also a reason to play goyf over angler in my book, goyfs enable delirium, angler does not,
I thought Invasive Surgery would be nice and strong vs both loam and miracles, two things than can wreak this deck apart, was I wrong?


I also wanted to try putting only one Golgari charm in the board for a Enginereed plague, but blood moon is a worse treath probably than elves or (again) monastery mentor (miracle')

[Manipulato]

Hey all,
I'm just back from the mkm series in Frankfurt and it was a great weekend!

I played the big Legacy trial on Saturday with 126 people showing off and went undefeated in 2nd place with 6:0:1 :smile:
We decided to draw in the finals of the swiss to be safe in 1st & 2nd place to get the 2 byes. I won 2 foil Lilianas a Playmat & 2 byes for the mainevent on Sunday.

You can see my decklist from Saturday here:

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2016/05/15/yesterdays-legacy-trial-winners/

My MU's were:

BUG Infect: Won 2:0

Grixis Reanimator: Won 2:1

MUD: Won 2:0

Shardless BUG: Won 2:1

Eldrazi: Won 2:1

Miracles: Won 2:1

Jund: Draw



Sadly the Sunday mainevent was horrible and I droped at 2:3 because I was really upset & tired.

My MU's were:

Round 1: Bye

Round 2: Bye

Round 3: Chancelor super fast Reanimator (Lost 1:2 with 2 FoW's + 1 Pierce in hand because of a Otp T1 Cancelor Reanimate start :rolleyes:)

Round 4: Miracles (Lost 1:2 again after he Blood Mooned me away on T4 with Pyroblast backup for a counter on my side (Which I not had anyways).

Round 5: TES Lost 1:2 after he killed me 2 times 1st turn me without FoW & playing around my Daze because of perfect mana.

I defenetly should have mulled more aggressiv against my TES opponent to find the FoW, I think it's was a mistake.
I also should have played more tight against Miracles and I probably even would have won game 3. I was just too greedy in those games.

I changed the SB a bit before the Mainevent:
- 1 Life from the Loam
- 1 Grim Lavamancer

+ 1 Sylvan Library
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis

I made these changes because I wanted to have a better MU's against Miracles & Shardless with more strong cards. I never boarded the Loam & just 1-2 times the Lavamancer...

I thought about 2 Baleful Strix in the SB instead of the Library & TNN but I think I'm already favoured against Eldrazi & Delver Mirrors so I decided to go with this change.

You can check Petr Sochurek's 9th place list in the mainevent here, he went 8:2:
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2016/05/15/lets-delve-secrets-top-pro-petr-sochurek/

Greetings