[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Manipulato]

fell in love with Manipulato latest decklist (the one on tc decks)

I personally love the deck, but when I showed it to a friend he said:
Why should I play this with goyf, rathern than grixis with angler?

I was like, well, because it's cooler! and I can cast goyf anytime, but otherwise I was a bit unpreparred.

So, what really make the deck worthy over grixis?
I've all the cards, so honestly I made some game with the list lately, and I found Confidant a real powerhouse. Drawing so many cards from t2 in a delver deck really change things.

I would probably too cut one, but I'm still unsure, having three means we can actually cast it "early" rathen than having to find it later on.
To cut one confidant, we should put something that really gives advantage, I could think to singleton angler or nemesis, but I don't seem to like either, maybe a vendilion clique?

Another thing I personally hate is running only 3 decay, but that's me and my nature of jund player, also, here in italy there are way too many miracles... or eldrazi...

Have you ever considered a singleton Kolaghan's command? seems nice on paper, cutting chalice, batterskull, and acting as a bolt like spell... plus it can discard on istant or recoup a goyf/bob/delver:
One I've seen one of my local players playing one instead of a bolt, looks nice on paper (on paper only though, for sure it's a powerful card but I wonder how it fares in real, may give it a go)

What about cutting the invasive surgery on side?
Invasive surgery was also a reason to play goyf over angler in my book, goyfs enable delirium, angler does not,
I thought Invasive Surgery would be nice and strong vs both loam and miracles, two things than can wreak this deck apart, was I wrong?


I also wanted to try putting only one Golgari charm in the board for a Enginereed plague, but blood moon is a worse treath probably than elves or (again) monastery mentor (miracle')

Hi,
thx, glad you enjoy the list.

Well the reason for me to play this over Grixis Delver is Tarmogoyf & Abrupt Decay. In the current meta it's just super important to get rid of Counterbalance & Chalice of the Void. Tarmogoyf is also better than Young Pyromancer against the Eldrazi's for example.
Another advantage is the Golgari Charm in the SB. It's just a one sided Wrath of god against Elves & Death and Taxes. Grixis has Electrickery but damage is worse than-1/-1 especially because of mother of runes for example. Charm is also way more flexible than anything from the Grixis side.

There are Grixis Delver lists which splash 2 AD in the MD but I really dont like this. With only 1 Tropical & 3 Volcanic casting AD is really fragile & unconsistent.

I dont play Invasive Surgery because I was really unimpressed by it. Most of the time it's just a envelop which is ok but not more. I prefer cards like Thoughtseize over it which is way more versatile in various MU's.
Getting delirium is not that easy as people think especially in this build without 4 Gitaxian Probe and Therapys.
Surgery is stronger in Grixis Delver for same reasons.

I really like the TNN because he close out games where other creatures fail. He's just super strong against Eldrazi, DnT, Miracles and blade MU's. Clique gets stranded by Baleful Strix, oposing Cliques & Flickerwisp/Serra Avenger for example.

[NegatorITA]

Hi,
thx, glad you enjoy the list.

Well the reason for me to play this over Grixis Delver is Tarmogoyf & Abrupt Decay. In the current meta it's just super important to get rid of Counterbalance & Chalice of the Void. Tarmogoyf is also better than Young Pyromancer against the Eldrazi's for example.
Another advantage is the Golgari Charm in the SB. It's just a one sided Wrath of god against Elves & Death and Taxes. Grixis has Electrickery but damage is worse than-1/-1 especially because of mother of runes for example. Charm is also way more flexible than anything from the Grixis side.

There are Grixis Delver lists which splash 2 AD in the MD but I really dont like this. With only 1 Tropical & 3 Volcanic casting AD is really fragile & unconsistent.

I dont play Invasive Surgery because I was really unimpressed by it. Most of the time it's just a envelop which is ok but not more. I prefer cards like Thoughtseize over it which is way more versatile in various MU's.
Getting delirium is not that easy as people think especially in this build without 4 Gitaxian Probe and Therapys.
Surgery is stronger in Grixis Delver for same reasons.

I really like the TNN because he close out games where other creatures fail. He's just super strong against Eldrazi, DnT, Miracles and blade MU's. Clique gets stranded by Baleful Strix, oposing Cliques & Flickerwisp/Serra Avenger for example.


all points make sense, thanks

I'm going to give another twist though:
I think I'm gonna try out to replace bob with Baleful strix indeed, and see what happens.
May work better with enabling Invasive surgery, while also provinding some help vs giants Anglers/Eldrazi.
Will test online, just for the sake of it, since I'm unable to play for a while (working abroad, to keep it simple)

Have you read the article on MkM with the interview at the other 4c Delver player? While I'm flexible to run up to 3/4 bolts, I do not get how players like him can play only 2... I guess their plan is based to make it work as removal only (mainly), I also doesn't really like Snapcaster mage, feels heavy on the manabase (sure, when you get to flashback a pierce or a bolt it's very nice, maybe while doing combat tricks and getting an angler in return, but, still...)

[Manipulato]

@NegatorITA: Yes I wrote that article and I knew his list already because I talked to a other 4c Delver pilot who played his list. I also watched him playing the mainevent over 3 rounds...His build is focused to beat the current top 3 Dtb Miracles, Shardless, Eldrazi. This explains his 2 Painful Truths 2 Strixes the SCM 1 Dismember & the 2off bolt. Bolt is just medicore against Eldrazi...

I personally really don´t like the 2off bolt too and would never ever go under 3 but ok.

The 2 Strix will not really help you with delirium...Against Miracles all creatures will be exiled or get under your library and he will not counter it for sure.
Against Lands for example it´s a bit of a different story because of they´re P. Fires but even there I´m not sure if I want to board the strix out anyways. The bird is ok as a jump blocker for they´re marit large but P. Fires just kill those anyways...

Greetings

[blablub]

i like the czech list. But i think if you start cuttin Bolts because its true that they suck against eldrazi, you can maybe cut Red entirely. Obviously your mana gets much better. Pyroblast is a thing though but i think you can easily replace them with other Miracle-hate-Cards or other Counterspells. Sneak/Show is not relevant at the moment.

Honestly i was never such a huge fan of the Blast after the Banning of the Big Blue Spells because i feel that in the blue fair MUs the other colors matters more. I've lost too many games where i have Blast in Hand and my Opponent just casts Mentor or Liliana. I don't say that Blast is bad but i feel it might be worth to try to replace it. In my opinion the main reason for going 4-Color was allways Lightning Bolt.

I think my approach will be change Blasts with more Bombs against Miracles like Bitterblossoms and Stuff. After that i will cut a Land and the two Painful Truths for three Stifle. The reason for that is that Stifle is not on the Radar anymore because all the Grixis Deck dont play it. I allways loved to punish people for beeing bad. With additonal Pace in the Sideboard you can put painful Truths in the Sideboard as well.

At least i've got a question: Why they are playin Nihil Spellbomb? Surgical hits punishing Fire or Cage can hit Elves. I feel there is something i don't get. Why is the Spellbomb better then the other alternatives?

By the way if you have 3 Strixes Postboard and enough Outs against their Lock-Pieces like Grudge+Decay the MatchUp against Eldrazi is positive

[Manipulato]

I have similar thoughts about Pyroblast/REB...But the thing is that it can just counter/destroy Jace TMS against Miracles & counters the Visions & Strixes against Shardless. So they have they´re place in the current meta but are not so powerfull as before with DTT/TC etc...
The main reasons for me to play red is bolt and especially the ancient grudge in the SB. I agree, if he shrinks down the bolts to 2 he just can play BUG colors and call it a day with a more stabile manabase...

Running Stifle right now is not a bad idea, I talked to a other Grixis Delver player in Frankfurt exaxtly about that...It´s unexpected and super strong vs Miracles & Shardless. It´s weak in the Eldrazi MU but truths or whatever are bad too and even then you have cards to cut for sideboarding games.

Till now I never lost a round to Eldrazi with the 4c lists and I dont think we have to overboard against them because the core of the deck is already solid vs them.

[blablub]

i completely agree with you. In fact i dont bring in Blasts against Shardless because the only cards which matters are Goyf and Liliana (Decay too, but you can't interact with it) Of course you can bring them but as i mentioned it feels so bad if you have a blast and your Opponent casts Liliana.
Grudge can be replaced with more Decays or something like Naturalize.

Baleful Strix is still a problem though...

[MinosSnt]

Some guys were asking why playing Tarmo & Decay over Grixis Delver...

Mhh I understand all of you (I'm back in legacy after a 2 years' break), so I ask, why splashing Red for Bolt & Pyroblast / Reb instead of playing BUG Delver... You said that bolt is less efficient against Shardless / MIracle & Eldrazi which are DTB, and some are cutting 2... SO why not cutting Red ?

Why should I play 4C Delver over Bug Delver which is (I think) better against Eldrazi (Dismember...) and Miracle (Decay) ?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Playing Delver vs. Shardless is pretty simple: Their cards are mostly terrible, but they have so many of them that they can just overwhelm you. So to beat them, you're not looking for cards that answer their threats well (Spell Pierce for Liliana, Pyroblast for Vision), you just bring in your own cardadvantage engines, like Painful Truths or Jace. You're still going to have some reactive cards in your deck, but you shouldn't run them specifically for Shardless. When my deck has access to it, I like Ancient Grudge because it solves the Baleful Strix problem and balances out some 2-for-1's. I also like Submerge. I don't like Pyroblast all that much because there are more flexible ways to deal with their blue cards, but I usually play Snares and/or Stifles in my red Delver lists.


Edit:


Some guys were asking why playing Tarmo & Decay over Grixis Delver...

Mhh I understand all of you (I'm back in legacy after a 2 years' break), so I ask, why splashing Red for Bolt & Pyroblast / Reb instead of playing BUG Delver... You said that bolt is less efficient against Shardless / MIracle & Eldrazi which are DTB, and some are cutting 2... SO why not cutting Red ?

Why should I play 4C Delver over Bug Delver which is (I think) better against Eldrazi (Dismember...) and Miracle (Decay) ?

Team America is a completely different deck, mostly due to Hymn to Tourach and Tombstalker. In fact, I don't consider Team America a Delver deck in the same way as Canadian, Grixis or burg. It might overall be correct to just not play Delver in Team America, but I guess that's off topic.

[Manipulato]

Some guys were asking why playing Tarmo & Decay over Grixis Delver...

Mhh I understand all of you (I'm back in legacy after a 2 years' break), so I ask, why splashing Red for Bolt & Pyroblast / Reb instead of playing BUG Delver... You said that bolt is less efficient against Shardless / MIracle & Eldrazi which are DTB, and some are cutting 2... SO why not cutting Red ?

Why should I play 4C Delver over Bug Delver which is (I think) better against Eldrazi (Dismember...) and Miracle (Decay) ?

Bolt is strong against Shardless! And it's even ok against Miracles (Jace, Mentor, Clique, smash they're face). Even G2/3 I leave in 2 bolt just because of those cards.
You should check out the lists from the last 2 pages, we all play 2-3 AD MD + 3-4 bolts.
Decaying a 1/1 elf feels also super bad and is to slow. Bolt is also super effective in Delver MU'S, wasting they're 1st Land and then bolting they're Shaman is huge and not possible if you play just BUG colors. I missed bolt so much in my TA days.

I personally would never ever go below 3 bolts because it's just a 1 mana instant speed removal + possible kill spell. I will never play a Delver deck without bolt again (played TA for 2 years). It's just too important in creatures based MU's and forces your oponents into difficult play scenario sich when they're at 6 life or less because they fear the instant kill.

In my opinion it's not possible to replace Ancient Grudge really 1:1 because this is just a uniqe card, discard proof, counter proof, destroys 2 artifacts, and is cheap with instant speed. This card won me so many games against DnT, Stoneblade & Stompy based decks.

I saw Petr Sochurek bringing in the Pyroblast's against Shardless as well & I agree with him. Countering they're Visions & Strixes is too important.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Legacy is so big and diverse and full of decks which are not Tier 1. Just look at my 7 rounder, I played 3 Tier 1 decks (Shardless Eldrazi Miracles) and 4 rounds against Tier 2 decks.
At the Mainevent I only played 1 Tier 1 deck (Miracles) and 2 random decks. Thinking outside the box ist important especially in Legacy.

[noobslayer]

So I've been interested in burg lists over grixis lists. I love the variety of the cards, letting you have extremely efficient choices when it comes to removal. I also love the flavor everyone seems to have in their own lists. That being said, I also noticed a lot of the players piloting burg tend to be European. Does the meta in regards to combo decks and wastelands decks make it more favorable to run a burg list? Here in the states should I incorporate stifle to battle all the wastelands I'm likely to be running into? Or should I be sticking to a more traditional grixis list? Thoughts and experiences appreciated.

EDIT:

For reference, this is the maindeck that I am leaning towards at the moment. I wanted something that didn't go for too much cute stuff, but was getting me the most efficient choices and consistency for my 4c greed.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver
4 Goyf
1 Snapcaster (Flex Creature giving me more mileage out of my card choices)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (This could be Stifle I guess, but I'm not as huge a fan of it. Maybe if I made space for something like 2 Thoughtseize in the main I'd lean more towards it)

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt (I also feel given that I'm running scm that I could afford to trade the 4th L.bolt for a Forked Bolt and not lose too much for it)

3 Wasteland
2 Trop
2 U.sea
2 Volcanic
10 Fetches

I would maybe like to see a singleton painful truths in the main, maybe over the 4th bolt, goyf, 3rd pierce, but I'm not sure. Overall I feel like this is a good straightforward starting point.

At the moment the sideboard is up in the air, long list is:
golgari charm
diabolic edict
fire covenant
submerge
baleful strix
grim lavamancer
nihil spellbomb
grafidggers
surgical extraction
thoughtseize
reb/pyro
beb/hydro
flusterstorm
divert
invasive surgery
painful truths
life from the loam
ancient grudge
pithing needle
null rod
winter orb
v. clique

[Whitefaces]

I played 4C Delver in GP Prague this weekend. I was on Shardless until a week before the event but was getting frustrated with some clunky draws so threw this together. It played pretty nicely, the only change I’d make in the MD is a Murderous Cut over the Forked Bolt at the moment. The SB needs some work for Eldrazi which I luckily only faced once. Cavern is a beating…

Ended day one at 7-2, then day two was a bit of a disaster and went 2-4. The Shardless and Storm matches were very close, both came down to deciding topdecks in G3. DnT was quite unfortunate, my deck kinda gave up on me after a long weekend despite an amazing SB for the matchup.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library

4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce

2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant
1 Electrickery
1 Null Rod
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Winter Orb

Day 1.

Bye
Bye
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-0 Miracles
1-2 Elves (Julian Knab)
2-0 Sneak and Show
0-2 Eldrazi
2-1 RUG w/Mandrils
2-1 Affinity w/chalice and thopter sword

Day 2.

0-2 Grixis Delver
1-2 Shardless
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Sneak and Show
1-2 Storm
1-2 DnT

[NegatorITA]

I played 4C Delver in GP Prague this weekend. I was on Shardless until a week before the event but was getting frustrated with some clunky draws so threw this together. It played pretty nicely, the only change I’d make in the MD is a Murderous Cut over the Forked Bolt at the moment. The SB needs some work for Eldrazi which I luckily only faced once. Cavern is a beating…

Ended day one at 7-2, then day two was a bit of a disaster and went 2-4. The Shardless and Storm matches were very close, both came down to deciding topdecks in G3. DnT was quite unfortunate, my deck kinda gave up on me after a long weekend despite an amazing SB for the matchup.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library

4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce

2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant
1 Electrickery
1 Null Rod
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Winter Orb

Day 1.

Bye
Bye
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-0 Miracles
1-2 Elves (Julian Knab)
2-0 Sneak and Show
0-2 Eldrazi
2-1 RUG w/Mandrils
2-1 Affinity w/chalice and thopter sword

Day 2.

0-2 Grixis Delver
1-2 Shardless
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Sneak and Show
1-2 Storm
1-2 DnT

interesting

Let's us elaborate a little:

how where the nemesis + vendilion maindeck?
I've yet to try the fish, but when I do not pack equipment I'm not a huge fan of it, I'd rather play Strix or Confidant, but that's me.
How is the match vs Grixis Delver?
Why forked bolt maindeck? (Grixis? Elves?) Would dismember fit as well rather than Murderous Cut? (I think it may)

[Whitefaces]

interesting

Let's us elaborate a little:

how where the nemesis + vendilion maindeck?
I've yet to try the fish, but when I do not pack equipment I'm not a huge fan of it, I'd rather play Strix or Confidant, but that's me.
How is the match vs Grixis Delver?
Why forked bolt maindeck? (Grixis? Elves?) Would dismember fit as well rather than Murderous Cut? (I think it may)

I wanted a few threats that were hard to answer and disruptive, I was also expecting to play against more Miracles too. It was originally just one of each with a third Spell Pierce, but the threat count felt a bit low so I added a second fish as a nod towards Eldrazi. The Clique was OK, wasn't drawn very often and pitched to Force in a few matches. It's still great vs combo and Miracles so I'd be hesitant to cut it just yet. True-Name is more aggressive than Strix and Bob and arguably higher impact (it's rare Bob lives more than a turn), with four bolts in the deck I'd prefer to be aggressive. Strix is something to consider for the SB for sure though, I was lucky to mostly dodge Eldrazi.

For Grixis, not having a clean answer to Gurmag Angler was a mistake, I feel like Murderous Cut is a reasonable choice, Dismember is fine too. I'd cut the Forked Bolt for one of those. My loss to Grixis Delver on day two was thanks to a pair of zombie fish G1 outclassing my goyfs, then mulled to 5 G2 and the card disadvantage sealed the match.

The Forked Bolt main was with Delver mirrors, Elves and DnT in mind.

[Manipulato]

Gratz Dissection! Great run!

This is my list from the weekend which is very close to the one I played in Frankfurt couple weeks ago:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle

So here is my horrible report from GP Prague :frown:

Friday: I played one last chance trial after zero ours of sleep & super strong headeag.

Round 1: UB Reanimator Won 2:0

Round 2: Oponent did not show up 2:0

Round 3: UW Stoneblade Won 2:1

Round 4: BUG Delver Lost 1:2

Finals in Round 5 were Miracles vs BUG Delver 2:0 for Miracles.

Saturday: Mainevent

Round 1: 4c Aggro Loam Lost 1:2
I lost here but all games were super tight & close, I'm quite proud how I piloted game 3 even if I lost to a topdecked Maze of Ith for my 6/7 goyf as his only out (Wasted his 2nd black source for Lili & surgicaled his AD)

Round 2: Eldrazi Lost 1:2
This was my 1st time losing to Eldrazi and against a bad player too :rolleyes:

I had a solid hand in game 3 but my next 3 draws were land, land, land, Ancient Grudge (Without any artifact in play!) 3 turns before the game ended I drew Brainstorm which showed me Tarmogoyf + TNN but it was just too late me on 3 life and Endbringer on his side.

Round 3: ANT Won 2:0
He had a medicore draw & I did my typical delver thing.

Round 4: Shardless BUG Won 2:0
I had the perfect draw in both games & crushed him hard.

Round 5: UR Delver Lost 1:2
Titus was the nicest guy I met this weekend, cool dude!
Sadly I lost game 3 after a mulligan to 6 & missing my 2nd land drop even after I pondered :rolleyes:

In game 3 I made the only real mistake during the whole weekend by gaining 2 life with my shaman instead of let him lose 2 life in response to his PoP. If I had do this I would killed both of us and the game were a "2:2 draw".

Round 6: ANT (Sloshthedark here on TC) Lost 1:2
Wear had a close game 3 having me with a FoW without a pitch in hand when he went for the combo 1 turn before he died to my attackers.

2:4 DROP!

Very dissapointing result but the deck is really good even if the result does not show it.

Petr Sochurek & Lorentz Maximilian switched to BUG Delver short before the tournament but I will not do that! Lightning Bolt won me 3 games alone on one day, too strong to cut.

I really like the list and I dont have many changes right now except for the 2 Spell Pierce, they underperformed in Frankfurt & Prague and were the most sided out card. We will see. I want to test a 4c version with YP/Probe/Therapy instead of Goyf/3rd AD/Spell Pierce etc...
The list went in 12th place in Prague.

Here's a 9th place list from GP Columbus http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20771&iddeck=158776

[noobslayer]

@Manipulato:

I agree. My test partner says I'm too greedy for going 4c, but honestly it is tons more fun. That being said I wanted to ask you about your choice in value engines. You have run all 3 (P. Truths, Bobs, Library), so based on your experiences, which match-ups do you prefers certain engines for? I know Library is the least life effective in the long run for them but do you feel its permanent contribution warrants a place in the 75? I love Bobs but I am extremely hesitant to run him as he is just so easy to deal with (I know that there is an argument that it's one less removal spell for another threat but meh), and he has a lot of difficulty being able to attack when you don't have board advantage.

[Manipulato]

@Manipulato:

I agree. My test partner says I'm too greedy for going 4c, but honestly it is tons more fun. That being said I wanted to ask you about your choice in value engines. You have run all 3 (P. Truths, Bobs, Library), so based on your experiences, which match-ups do you prefers certain engines for? I know Library is the least life effective in the long run for them but do you feel its permanent contribution warrants a place in the 75? I love Bobs but I am extremely hesitant to run him as he is just so easy to deal with (I know that there is an argument that it's one less removal spell for another threat but meh), and he has a lot of difficulty being able to attack when you don't have board advantage.

The 4c list is not really greedy tbh. I had way more problems with the Team America manabase than with this! Having 2 Bayou + 4 Wasteland in your blue Delver deck is way worse than just 4 Wasteland especially if you play so many bb spells like Hymn/Lili etc...

If you fetch wisely & play your lands correctly it's not problem at all. You just have 4 red cards in the MD so you fetch BUG colors most of the time and even if you have the bolt in hand you can cast him off Shaman.

I had exactly 3 games where the 4c manabase was a problem but maybe out of 50 games.

Well about the value engines....
Painful Truths is a strict SB card for me, I tried it as a 2off in the MD over 2-3 turneys and was very dissapointed.
It's just super slow & clunky and manaintensive with BUG/Grixis colors at the same time.
But they're good in the SB especially for the Miracles, Shardless, BGx MU's.

Sylvan Library is still good but the advantage you get from is slow & very life hungry. I board it or leave it in in the same MU's like PT's but the cheaper & more easy manacost are good enough for the DnT & 4c Loam MU too.

Dark Confidant is just awesome! I never play him 1st, I play Shaman, Delver & Goyf before him and then the oponents have no removal for him because they had to handle the other 3 dudes. At that point Bobi just runs away with the game. I really like also the fact that he's a easy to cast 2 drop which synergizes well with Daze & Pierce for example. PT's & TNN suck here because of they're 3cc. He's won me some games during the turney and puts you into the driver seat really quick especially against Miracles.

He's also good vs combo because he beats they're face AND draws you more disruption.
You just board him out vs really fsdt and agressive decks like Burn, Eldrazi, UR Delver...

[Jonathan Alexander]

The 4c list is not really greedy tbh. I had way more problems with the Team America manabase than with this! Having 2 Bayou + 4 Wasteland in your blue Delver deck is way worse than just 4 Wasteland especially if you play so many bb spells like Hymn/Lili etc...

This is not entirely accurate. First off, the Bayous in Team America are pretty much extra mana sources; it's not like you're cutting any other lands for them. Still, you are correct in pointing out that there are in fact issues with the deck's mana. Mainly, that's because you need UU, BB & BG to be able to cast all of your spells. However, that is somewhat offset by the fact that you usually don't need UU when you have just two lands anyway and that you're running a higher number of mana sources than most Delver decks.

The issue with burg is similar. Canadian's mana base works because the deck is fully operational on just two lands. This deck kind of tries to emulate that, but it's really a deck that needs three mana sources. And you need all of them early. If you have two lands and Deathrite, you usually get to do ridiculous things, but if you don't, the deck tends to be very awkward.

Not that it's totally unreasonable to play four colours, but there is a prize you have to pay for the additional options. The mana gets a lot better if you're on three colours with a splash. You kind of are, but you are splashing Lightning Bolt, which is a fundamental part of your early game against creature decks. I think if you go more in the direction of Grixis, with a lighter presence of green cards, the deck gets much better. Maybe more Confidants and True-Names instead of some Goyfs? I don't know how powerful the deck is with that kind of setup, but the mana is real issue with the way the deck is set up right now. Maybe not in the way that you constantly lose because you're mana screwed, but you have to make some for Delver decks unusual decisions to make the mana work, which sometimes hurt your position in the game.

[Manipulato]

This is not entirely accurate. First off, the Bayous in Team America are pretty much extra mana sources; it's not like you're cutting any other lands for them. Still, you are correct in pointing out that there are in fact issues with the deck's mana. Mainly, that's because you need UU, BB & BG to be able to cast all of your spells. However, that is somewhat offset by the fact that you usually don't need UU when you have just two lands anyway and that you're running a higher number of mana sources than most Delver decks.

The issue with burg is similar. Canadian's mana base works because the deck is fully operational on just two lands. This deck kind of tries to emulate that, but it's really a deck that needs three mana sources. And you need all of them early. If you have two lands and Deathrite, you usually get to do ridiculous things, but if you don't, the deck tends to be very awkward.

Not that it's totally unreasonable to play four colours, but there is a prize you have to pay for the additional options. The mana gets a lot better if you're on three colours with a splash. You kind of are, but you are splashing Lightning Bolt, which is a fundamental part of your early game against creature decks. I think if you go more in the direction of Grixis, with a lighter presence of green cards, the deck gets much better. Maybe more Confidants and True-Names instead of some Goyfs? I don't know how powerful the deck is with that kind of setup, but the mana is real issue with the way the deck is set up right now. Maybe not in the way that you constantly lose because you're mana screwed, but you have to make some for Delver decks unusual decisions to make the mana work, which sometimes hurt your position in the game.

Hey Mr. Winter Orb :wink:

Sure TA plays 20 lands (So 1 more than we do) but I have seen some lists which only played 19 too. So we have 1-2 non-blue duals more than in our 4c list.
Well I played both decks long enough to make comparisons & my experience showed that I had more problems in the TA manabase than in 4c.
But yes I have to agree that a 3c manabase is more solid in general, yes.
The deck in his current state is really strong but I will test other configurations as well to see whats the strongest.
The czech guys as well as me piloted it to really good results.
I'm especially interested in the 12th place list in Prague with 4c YP/Probe/ Therapy/AD mixture.

It's kinda Grixis Delver with AD MD & a more optimized manabase than the normal Grixis lists.

[ryten]

Hey all,

new as a poster but been reading mtgthesource for a while now - recently have been switching between grixis/bug delver - until I found burg and decided to give it a whirl. I recently ran the following list @ Eternal Extravaganza 4 to a 6-3 record. Not bad, and 2 of my 3 three losses were really close.One was a TERRIBLE misplay as I have 0 exposure vs elves and I bolted a deathrite while there was a symbiot out. I'll never make that mistake again.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True*Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
SB
2 FlusterStorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyro Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dismember
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Round 1 Vs Miracles

1 - 2, He beats me turn 5 in time with mentor @ 1 health

Round 2 vs Reanimator

2-1, nothing stood out here - grafidder's cage game three he scoops since he was playing a mono black version and had no answer to it

Round 3 vs Death and Taxes

G1 - Bolt keeps board clean, stifle stoneforge, kill with delvers
g2 - kept 1 lander that just didnt get there after mulling to 6
g3 - golgari charm/bolts/abrupts keep board clean, delver finishes game


Round 4 vs Food Chain

No idea what I am doing, never faced this before and had no real game plan

Round 5 vs High Tide

I play stifle aggressively early on instead of deathrite/delvers.

Stifle 1st land drop while delver puts a clock/holding permission for important spells.

G2 - he mills me out while @ 2 hp, time spiral did not give me a bolt

G3 - don't remember exact hand but I remember it had 2 delvers for an aggressive game plan, so I keep. Delver gets there.

Round 6 vs BUG delver

G1. Matchup is very grindy - I try to deal with his deathrites/delvers with bolts and hold abrupts for Goyf. A delver gets me there.
G2. He wins after a top deck war of clearing each other's board ( 2 marsh casualties, one of them dealing with my true-name )
G3. Very grindy matchup - Able to get there with a delver after clearing the board with bolts vs his deathrites.

Round 7 vs Elves

I have very little XP vs elves.
G1 - Lose to him going off to a green sun zenith craterhoof
g2 - kept board clear aggresively with bolts/abrupts/golgari charms and got in with a delver/true-name
g3 - VERY close matchup - he swung for exactly 3 and got me because I had to tap for 5 mana using a deathrite instead of chump blocking + eating a creature to counter craterhoof while he was at 3. I had a true-name on board and was going to get it next turn. My misplay that cost me the game was much earlier but it was a wasted bolt - bolted a shaman with symbiote out.

Round 8 vs Reanimator

G1 - mull to 6, hand filled with dazes/spell pierce/force/ponder, hes on the play - able to resolve a delver while keeping him from resolving an animation
g2 - he mulls to 5, I have a turn 1 delver but decide not to go for it, played a land and he is forced to fetch into a stifle which was a blow out - delver gets there while he never find a blue source to cantrip properly.


I'll need to figure out the Elves + Food Chain matchup a little more, but a lot of it is lack of exposure. I rushed this type out as it's been a long day and I'm beat.

night all!

[nitewolf9]

In case anyone is still interested I think this deck is extremely strong in the form of my 9th place GP Col. list.

It was built with aggression in mind as a tempo deck first and foremost, and that aggression acted as a shield for the manabase in many games simply due to the fact that my opponents couldn't get a good opportunity to wasteland me profitably. The build felt good against everything I played against, really streamlined. I liked the threat base of goyf over pyromancer with the way the rest of the deck was built, namely no probes and utilizing stifle. Goyf was also obviously nuts vs Eldrazi and the delver mirrors, and I love me some golgari charm.

If I had to change anything it would be -2 painful truths and +1 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Dismember/Jitte in the board. Truths is just not the way you want to beat miracles and it didn't seem great against anything else, kind of a step backwards from the deck's primary game plan.

Even though this is kind of way after the fact I might post a short report in the near future.

[ESG]

In case anyone is still interested I think this deck is extremely strong in the form of my 9th place GP Col. list.
...
Even though this is kind of way after the fact I might post a short report in the near future.

I've been off of this deck for about nine months but am still interested in hearing developments and your insights. The list I had the most success with was a Young Pyromancer-based one that had only 1 Tropical Island and no Tarmogoyfs, whereas your list is more like BUG Delver with a small red splash. I found that I had better results against Miracles by playing Pyromancers and a few more burn spells, plus Sulfuric Vortex out of the board. I did play a Stifle build at GP Seattle, and Stifle was good, but I had a couple of bad beats in the middle of the day and didn't make Day 2. Lands became way more popular here after Jarvis Yu's win, and so I shifted to decks I felt were better positioned against Lands. Then people's interest with lands waned as Miracles took over, and Eldrazi became a deck, and I was excited to tinker with that. I definitely still have all my Delver cards and will eventually jam them again.

[noobslayer]

In case anyone is still interested I think this deck is extremely strong in the form of my 9th place GP Col. list.

...

Even though this is kind of way after the fact I might post a short report in the near future.

I'd love to hear about some of your other choices like the single Gurmag, or any of the other board slots. Did you test winter orb at all in the slot for painful truths?

[Actinide]

In case anyone is still interested I think this deck is extremely strong in the form of my 9th place GP Col. list.

It was built with aggression in mind as a tempo deck first and foremost, and that aggression acted as a shield for the manabase in many games simply due to the fact that my opponents couldn't get a good opportunity to wasteland me profitably. The build felt good against everything I played against, really streamlined. I liked the threat base of goyf over pyromancer with the way the rest of the deck was built, namely no probes and utilizing stifle. Goyf was also obviously nuts vs Eldrazi and the delver mirrors, and I love me some golgari charm.

If I had to change anything it would be -2 painful truths and +1 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Dismember/Jitte in the board. Truths is just not the way you want to beat miracles and it didn't seem great against anything else, kind of a step backwards from the deck's primary game plan.

Even though this is kind of way after the fact I might post a short report in the near future.

I'd definitely still be interested in a report, even if it is super after the fact. :) I'm interested in just the overall card selection and general boarding strategies you employed.

[Lormador]

I would love a tournament report.

When I saw that decklist I went gaga and sleeved it up immediately. I promptly went to a tournament and got my face caved in. I managed to do OK in some unsanctioned games with the guy who won that event (a friend of mine), but I was never able to become comfortable with the build.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, just looking forward to a learning opportunity because I am very definitely doing it wrong.

[nitewolf9]

Report is up. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30822-GP-Columbus-9th-with-BURG-Delver&p=958342#post958342)

I'll have to write a sideboarding guide later if people are curious. Like I said before, I think the truths were not very good and should be a Sulfur Elemental and something else, probably another removal spell or Jitte.

[Whitefaces]

Hey nitewolf9,

Thanks for the report, was great to read!

I've played your 75 at my LGS last week then in a side event at a WMCQ yesterday (scrubbed out of the main event), it feels really good and I'm loving the stifles.

I went 3-1 at my LGS beating Nic Fit, Enchantress and Esper Mentor then losing to Storm in the last round, mostly due to some misplays on my part. Mulled both games too and kept unexciting 6s.

5-0 at the WMCQ side event beating UR Landstill, 12 post, Jund, Sneak and Breach and Shardless with a couple of changes to the SB and one in the MD. With 19 lands and DRS I always like a TNN in the MD, it can steal so many games so I cut a goyf for him. And in the SB -1 Clique -1 Forked Bolt -2 Painful Truths. I think we have plenty of removal and the Forked Bolt isn't needed, the Clique I like vs combo and Miracles but I'd prefer to just cut all the more expensive threats in these matchups and have a dedicated card in this slot, and I'm really not a fan of Truths in stifle decks as they're working against each other. One is pure tempo, the other card advantage. I added a second Flusterstorm over the Forked Bolt as it comes in vs Delver mirrors too and I think we have an edge here anyway with so much removal. One Invasive Surgery over the Clique as it will come in vs Combo and Miracles. It also diversifies countermagic vs Cabal Therapy vs combo decks which is nice. +1 Winter Orb, this has been a house vs Miracles, Lands etc, and it's even better with Stifles. And finally +1 Sulfur Elemental. I'm not sure about this but I'm terrified of Mentor!

Angler has been incredible too, is it crazy to cut the third Goyf for a second one? Might be a bit too taxing on Deathrites then, but every time I've cast him there has been plenty of fuel between both graveyards.

EDIT: Somehow missed you mentioning about Truths and Elemental above! Well, glad you're on the same page :) I like Jitte a lot as well, especially with access to two TNN after board.

[blablub]

what do you guys think about Ben Friedmans list? looks super interesting in my opinion. But 4 Surgicals? i think he has a plan with these in combination with the Snapcasters. Maybe i give it a try :)

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160746

[Manipulato]

I really dislike his creature configuration. The rest of the deck looks standard and solid.
5 cmc creatures in the deck are just to many (3 SCM 2 TNN), with this build your fine vs Miracles but really weak vs ANT for example. If you miss the fast Delver opening you just have a really slow clock with only 2 Goyf.

[Whitefaces]

I really dislike his creature configuration. The rest of the deck looks standard and solid.
5 cmc creatures in the deck are just to many (3 SCM 2 TNN), with this build your fine vs Miracles but really weak vs ANT for example. If you miss the fast Delver opening you just have a really slow clock with only 2 Goyf.

Completely agree, the curve is way too high for my liking. I guess four Surgical Extraction with the Snapcasters is great to have vs Lands or other GY strategies, but generally Snapcaster just costs too much. One is fine, three not so much. Unless he's SBing all the extractions in vs Miracles, for example. Extracting StP and Terminus or Mentor and Jace could be quite good if it comes up, but I hate these kind of strategies. Just guessing though, could be completely off.

[AfroSmile]

Hi everybody,

It's been a long time that I didn't come on this forum and it is always nice to see new and more players giving the deck a chance. I want to congratulate all the people who did nice results and particularly nitewolf9 with is top 9 at GP Colombus! Well done! I was so pleased to see the real 4c Delver performing in a big tournament.


Report is up. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30822-GP-Columbus-9th-with-BURG-Delver&p=958342#post958342)

I'll have to write a sideboarding guide later if people are curious. Like I said before, I think the truths were not very good and should be a Sulfur Elemental and something else, probably another removal spell or Jitte.

First thank you for you report, it was really interesting to read! I'm curious to read your sideboard plan. A lot of people forgot it but the strong point of this deck is the flexibility. So when it comes to sideboard, it depends also of your version of your deck. Because of that, it's really interesting to see how people sideboard with their version. My version is really near yours (see my actual decklist below) so we may have something to share. I'm looking forward to see your post.


I really dislike his creature configuration. The rest of the deck looks standard and solid.
5 cmc creatures in the deck are just to many (3 SCM 2 TNN), with this build your fine vs Miracles but really weak vs ANT for example. If you miss the fast Delver opening you just have a really slow clock with only 2 Goyf.

I saw this version too. It's really a particular configuration. It would be nice to have comments of Ben about his creature package. 2 years before I play his decklist with -3 Snapcaster Mage -1 Spell Pierce +4 Stifle. It was fine. Snapcaster mage is nice creature in the flex slot dedicated for the creature, but 3 looks too much for me. But it enables insane plays with Snapcaster and Lightning Bolt. 2 Tarmogoyf + 2 True-name nemesis is a build that worked for me earlier.


Now I will discuss about my actual version of the deck. I named it Big BURG because of the creature package. Since the rise of the Eldrazi in Legacy, I feel like everybody want to play more big fatties like a little game in order to know who have the biggest creature package. And I say . "Ok, let's play this game".

[Creatures Package]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

2 weeks before Prag, I was testing this creature package and it feels really great. Since the ban of DTT, I wanted to play Gurmag over Tarmogoyf (because of Decay), but why just putting them together. You play more fatties than Shardless BUG with this version and it feels really great when you're on aggro mode. The point is that all these creatures put a big pressure to the opponent and that's what we want.

The rest of the main deck is classic:
[19 Lands]
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

[14 Creatures]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

[27 Spells]
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 lightning Bolt
3 Decay
2 Thoughtseize

Sadly I did nothing in GP Prag (another spell package + sideboard wasn't well prepared) and I did top32 at BOM Strasbourg (5 wins, 2 loss, 1 draw).

I'm testing Thoughtseize over Stifle because I feel that's not a meta for it now with Eldrazi. (I know Stifle can be amazing against Miracle, Shardless BUG (and other midrange deck), Storm, etc. But it is only good to pitch to FoW against Eldrazi.

My actual sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion clique
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Baleful Strix
2 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction

@nitewolf9: Instead of Painful Truth, give a try to Winter Orb.

I really want to speak about Winter Orb. The card is just amazing for me! This is insane. It makes Daze and Spell Pierce incredible in matchup like Miracle, Shardless BUG or other midrange decks. It hits really hard Lands.
And it feels like it's a really nice synergy with Deathrite Shaman and Daze.
Wasteland becomes better by applying more pressure on the opponent manabase. (Keep waste open in order to waste in the upkeep any non-basic land can made them think much more.)
I think, there is only 2 delver.deck which can play Winter Orb so efficiently:
RUG Delver and BURG Delver. => But RUG Delver don't play Deathrite Shaman.
Grixis Delver may need his mana cantriping into cantrip with young pyro.
BUG have a much higher curve than the other delver.

Now my problem is the following, I can't play that much because of my job. If you can share your feelings about these package and Winter Orb, it would be nice. If somebody is streaming with the deck, it would be nice to share or just send me a PM.

I hope what I've written will help somebody. I wish you a lot of fun to play Burg.

[Whitefaces]

I've had a singleton Winter Orb in my sideboard since I picked up the deck and will definitely be adding the second, you're right about all your points, the card is amazing in the deck. Jonathan Alexander was playing one MD and two SB at GP Prague, although RUG is a slightly better tempo deck than us I think we share all the qualities that make it great. It also gives us this new SB plan of keeping some number of Daze and especially Pierces vs Miracles and other big mana decks. We can drag them kicking and screaming back into the first turns of the game :cool:

About the creature package. I see where you're coming from to have a lot of fatties, currently I've got nitewolf9s creature suite -1 Goyf +1 TNN and am quite happy with it. I've thought about cutting another Goyf for a second Angler but am worried about drawing both in the early turns. The TNN still serves a similar 'fatty' role vs Eldrazi as it blocks anything bar a Smasher, which we still need to get a fifth card type into the GY for Goyf to work, I don't like relying on us hitting a Chalice or something to do that. It's also immune to Displacer which unchecked takes over the game fast, as well as be great vs Miracles alongside Stifle for Terminus.

I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize in this deck since it's a loss of tempo and we don't have any bombs to power through. I remember when TNN was first printed BUG decks picked it up to take out sweepers for the fish, but we don't have a plan like that here. Despite being poor vs Eldrazi, Stifle has a much higher ceiling and is off a lot of peoples radars currently thanks to Grixis mostly dropping it.

I'm still figuring out what I like and don't like in the SB, playing Stifle or not changes this quite a lot. I like the idea of Strix vs Eldrazi but if running Stifle I'd prefer to just get under the other decks it's good vs rather than play their game, so I'm sticking with a Murderous Cut and a Diabolic Edit (also fine vs Lands) in those two spots instead. The third card to come in vs Eldrazi for the three Stifles is an Ancient Grudge. Ideally after that the Pierces could be cut on the draw, but I'm not sure how to tie this in yet.

Clique doesn't seem necessary if running Stifles as we already have an answer to Terminus, vs PWs we have either Decay, Bolt or Pyroblast and vs Combo I'd prefer to be shaving threats anyway so it's not replacing a TNN. Here's some thoughts on my SB at the moment.

2 Pyroblast - these seem set in stone, half the reason to run red.
2 Surgical Extraction - could also be a 1/1 split of Surgical and Grafdigger's Cage.
2 Winter Orb - as above, insane in this deck.
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Murderous Cut - Dismember is an option to play over one of these, but vs Eldrazi or the mirror 4 life can cost the game. Edict is nice for opposing TNN and Mongoose too. Hooting Madrills be tough to answer too.
1 Sulfur Elemental - Mentor is a scary card.
1 Ancient Grudge - set in stone.
2 Flusterstorm - Goes without saying how good it is vs combo and the mirror.
1 TNN - For midrange matchups, this could be a wasted slot and be moved MD over a Goyf instead of adding another Angler.
2 Golgari Charm - these haven't been overly impressive so far, but I've not played against a lot of Mums recently either.
1 Fire Covenant - I just love this card, but since we're already running 7 maindeck removal spells it might not be necessary. Null Rod will probably replace it.

[Manipulato]

About the Winter Orb topic...
Winter Orb´s best place is in a Delver deck which has Deathrite Shaman, Stifle & a as low as possible cc2/cc3 count as possible. I think a Stifle Grixis list is the perfect home for it, the whole synergy between Probe/Stifle/Wasteland/Shaman/YP/Daze etc. with only 4 cc2 spells in form of YP is just perfect.

4c Delver with 2-3 AD, 4 Goyf & 1-2 TNN has a lot more "expensive" spells so that sometimes your own Winter Orb hits you (I had such situations before!). But a 4c Stifle Goyf version is still a solid home for 2 Orb´s in the SB, no doubt.

I would strongly advice anybody to play 2 in the SB just because we want to draw it early, a T5/6 Orb is just meh...

[AfroSmile]

About the Winter Orb topic...
Winter Orb´s best place is in a Delver deck which has Deathrite Shaman, Stifle & a as low as possible cc2/cc3 count as possible. I think a Stifle Grixis list is the perfect home for it, the whole synergy between Probe/Stifle/Wasteland/Shaman/YP/Daze etc. with only 4 cc2 spells in form of YP is just perfect.
That's true, I missed the point with Grixis Green. But Winter Orb doesn't do what Young Pyro wants to do => cantriping into more spell in order to create tokens.



4c Delver with 2-3 AD, 4 Goyf & 1-2 TNN has a lot more "expensive" spells so that sometimes your own Winter Orb hits you (I had such situations before!). But a 4c Stifle Goyf version is still a solid home for 2 Orb´s in the SB, no doubt.

I think without stifle, it is okay too. If you're not too heavy on the 2CC/3CC like me. I like to wait until I have a threat only before playing Winter Orb into a full tap opponent.

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, sleeved up 4C Delver for the first time on Friday, beating Lands and Burn and drawing against Jund Nic Fit. I'll post my list, which is probably pretty standard, but am mostly curious about sideboard improvements and strategy.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

9 blue fetches
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Darkblast
2 Winter Orb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ancient Grudge


- I've found that Burn often appears at the weeklies in L.A., so I don't think I should leave home without a Hydroblast. Plus it does double duty against Sneak Attack, Young Pyromancer, and Blood Moon.
- Darkblast is the card I'm unsure about. DnT is popular here, and I see Elves somewhat often. Infect makes an occasional appearance, too. Perhaps this would be better as a Forked Bolt, a second Golgari Charm, or a Fire Covenant.
- I put the third Abrupt Decay in the sideboard for a Dismember because Miracles isn't well-represented in the weeklies here.
- Winter Orb is an absolute house. I had an occasional awkward turn where I wanted to cast Goyf after tapping out for Orb or couldn't develop my mana due to the Tabernacle tax, but those minor annoyances were well worth it.
- Go for the Throat was a hedge against other Goyf decks, Eldrazi, and silly stuff like Griselbrand. I liked it but didn't love it.

Here was my sideboarding plan for those three matches. I'd love some feedback, as I'm unsure about a few choices.

Jund Nic Fit:

-2 Abrupt Decay, -3 Lightning Bolt, -1 Spell Snare
+2 Winter Orb, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Hydroblast, +2 Surgical Extraction

He ran a build with Punishing Fire, so Surgical Extraction felt right. I left in the Dazes on both the play and the draw because the cards I'm most scared of - Pernicious Deed, Liliana, and Green Sun's Zenith - cost 3+ mana. They run the Veteran Explorer package, but my plan was to Stifle the land search trigger (which worked great and won me game 2). One Bolt was insurance against a resolved Liliana since I took out the Decays.

Lands:

-4 Lightning Bolt, -1 Dismember, -1 Spell Pierce
+2 Winter Orb, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Ancient Grudge

Most of this seems obvious, but I brought in Grudge (and left in both Decays) to kill Mox Diamonds and/or sideboard Chalices and Sphere effects. Maybe I should leave in Pierce and board out a Daze instead.

Burn:

-1 Dismember, -2 Daze (on the draw - match only went two games)
+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Hydroblast

I left in Stifles because he was running fetchlands, Grim Lavamancer, and Searing Blaze maindeck. Decays were to kill the creatures and Sulfuric Vortex.

I'm still learning when Daze and Stifle should remain in the deck. My Lands opponent played around Stifle both games, for example, but I should still leave it in, right?

Thanks a lot for the help!

[Draggo]

Hey, y'all, sleeved up 4C Delver for the first time on Friday, beating Lands and Burn and drawing against Jund Nic Fit. I'll post my list, which is probably pretty standard, but am mostly curious about sideboard improvements and strategy.

*....*

I left in Stifles because he was running fetchlands, Grim Lavamancer, and Searing Blaze maindeck. Decays were to kill the creatures and Sulfuric Vortex.

I'm still learning when Daze and Stifle should remain in the deck. My Lands opponent played around Stifle both games, for example, but I should still leave it in, right?

Thanks a lot for the help!

Don't keep Stifles in your deck vs. burn, it's simply not worth it. You either have a chance to hold back a land drop when you have Stifle, hold back a Lavamancer activation or Stifle a suspended Rift Bolt. All these options are sub-par becouse you can't follow up the land lock with Wastelands and holding back a Lavamancer does not fix the problem that there is one on the field.
Just add the Fusterstorms, Hydroblast, GftT and Decay from the board and play the removal game. Remove all creatures and counter PoP. You'll get more life back with the Shaman and the Burn deck should be forced to kill your creatures ASAP becouse you'll have the clock down instead of them. In the long run you'll have a better outcome.
So -3 Stifle -2 Wasteland and add the 5 cards I just said. Should work perfectly.
Keep the Daze in to have a higher chance to counter the Eidelon or grab back some lands when you get hit by a PoP you can't or don't want to counter becouse it will only hit for 2 or 0 damage after the Daze.

[Whitefaces]

While discussing options against Eldrazi a friend of mine suggested Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, thoughts? I've seen this tactic once or twice before but it could be quite effective here as well as Delver mirrors, lands etc.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I ran a Ghost Quarter in my Team America sideboard for a while and I liked it. I would add Loam first, but if you already have that, Ghost Quarter is very reasonable. The extra Wasteland is indeed good in Delver mirrors.

[Whitefaces]

I ran a Ghost Quarter in my Team America sideboard for a while and I liked it. I would add Loam first, but if you already have that, Ghost Quarter is very reasonable. The extra Wasteland is indeed good in Delver mirrors.

Nice to hear it was good for you, I'll run a pair at the next event I go to.

This pains me to write as I love the card, but while I like Loam in theory here I'd prefer to just have another GQ. In Delver mirrors an opposing DRS can to eat the Wastelands, GQs or Loam and vs Eldrazi I want to be pushing the tempo advantage as hard as possible and not tapping two mana each turn. If we're on the draw Loam can be snagged by a TKS or we can already be too far behind on board for it to matter. There is also the problem of just two Trops to cast Loam which can be awkward in Delver mirrors.

[wcm8]

So I've been playi-testing Dan Signorigni's 4C Delver list from the last US Grand Prix (with a few minor SB tweaks) and it seems *really* amazing. I'm actually quite surprised to not see his list catching on more and posting results on Top 8 deck-list aggregator websites -- perhaps if his tiebreakers at GP Columbus were just a single percentage point-or-two better and he made the cut top 8, things would be different and more Delver pilots would be net-decking his list instead of the latest SCG Open Top 8 Grixis list at their local events and SCG Opens.

Regarding Eldritch Moon: I don't think the new set has introduced anything that will significantly impact or influence the Legacy metagame at large, so the deck lists from the Columbus GP are still extremely relevant despite already being a few months old at this point. The only thing that really seems worth testing is Bedlam Reveler -- which I think perhaps could take 1 slot of the Gurmag Angler or a Goyf if the deck incorporated a a copy of Badlands in its land-base... but the mana reduction aspect is actually harder to achieve than it might seem at first glance, *especially* in a Delver deck not running 4 copies of Gitaxian Probe.

link to Dan's GP tournament report and deck list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30822-GP-Columbus-9th-with-BURG-Delver

I'm trying not to come across as a fanboy, but I've been a fan of Dan's approach to deck building for awhile now and I think he and his local playgroup manage to come up with some great ideas. I think when good Legacy players and innovative deck builders such as the Hatfield brothers, Lejay, and of course Dan Signorigni post impressive results with a new deck, it's definitely worth paying attention to. Even if you don't agree with all of their card choices, it's often worth incorporating some aspects of their innovation in your own decks (e.g. Lejay splashing White in BUG Cascade for access to cards like Meddling Mage -- a worthwhile inclusion that patches up some of the weakness that deck has to combo).

Needless to say, all of the following discussion about the deck is just in my opinion and based on my personal perspective and impression of my local Legacy metagame (which is IRL paper Legacy tournaments and FNMs located in and around the NorthEast US). The perspectives might not be as applicable in a different metagame, e.g. MODO or European metagames. Thus, some of the analysis might come across as hyperbolic or even outright wrong based on the decks being played elsewhere. Anyways:

The main 60 is basically as close to Perfection you can get within the Delver archetype, especially given the current card pool and opposing DTBs in the current Legacy metagame. The mixture of spells -- the disruptive and efficient Blue counterspells that have synergy with each other and the 4 Wastelands; the versatile, efficient and powerful removal package of 4 Bolts + 3 Decay that cleans up basically every major and common threat in the format (and is further backed up by the SB removal options); the 13 most efficiently-costed and aggressively-minded aggro/control creatures in the format (with additional pressure provided by SB 3-CMC utility threats); the maximized consistency of the deck's role as the aggressor while disrupting the opponent's gameplan (whatever it may be), achieved with 8 copies of the format's best Blue cantrips... These elements all come together to provide a TON of strategic versatility and raw power. By running 4 Colors, the deck has access to all of the tools necessary to win against basically any Legacy deck -- and the cost of running 4 colors is mitigated by the color-fixing provided by DRS, a fetch/dual mana base, and the simplistic nature of most of the spells only requiring a single color of mana and/or the Duals all providing Blue mana*.

*perhaps it might be worth dropping the 9th fetchland or something else for a Bayou or a Badlands to have better color coverage, at the cost of occasionally awkward hands lacking a Blue source. So far though, the deck as-is with 6 Blue duals + 9 fetches hasn't had much trouble with getting timely access to the color needed for the current game's scenario.

With the deck's power all said, you still need to play very tightly to win. As Dan pointed out in his tournament report, this build needs every turn to be played optimally and turns need to planned out several moves ahead; otherwise you can lose due to a seemingly minor incremental advantage that your opponent achieved. This is different from how other Delver builds often achieve victory: Dan's 4C list often wins in what might seem like "close" games, whereas other Delver decks frequently win in an incredibly lop-sided fashion. The thing is, those same Delver decks frequently *lose* in a similarly lop-sided fashion and lack the cards necessary to come back from a losing board position (e.g. Grixis can lose to a resolved CB or Chalice on 1, and without Decay has a much tougher time getting back into the game). The 4C build has a chance of coming back in practically every game thanks to the mixture of spells (obviously ignoring instances of extreme luck for your opponent or massive misfortune on your part, which are simply a frustrating aspect of MtG -- randomness makes it so that those 80-20 matchups still end up as a loss 20% of the time).

Obviously, 4C Delver has some difficulty against decks that are traditionally good versus Delver.dec, but that's expected. However, and despite the archetype's softness to some strategies (e.g. RG Lands, D&T, Elves, and UWr Miracles to some extent), Dan's 4C list addresses these problematic matchups with its well-thought out card selection, and perhaps more importantly, it does this *without* giving up much power against the decks that Delver is traditionally favored against. Compare this to Brainstorm Brewery's "Miracles Slayer" Delver list (which among other changes, drops Goyf in favor of 4 Nimble Mongoose) -- while that build certainly *does* have a good Miracles matchup, it achieves that by weakening itself against a significant number of other decks that still need to be considered going into a tournament. I don't really think super heavy meta-gaming is an ideal approach in Legacy, as the format simply has so many decks that you're not at all guaranteed to even face the deck you've metagamed against, or at least enough times to justify it. This variety is also partially why I love the format so much.

In contrast, lot of the other Delver decks that only run 2-3 colors generally have a glaring weakness that can be easily exploited by other decks -- e.g. by running mostly 1-drops and not running Decay, you become vulnerable to CounterBalance and Chalice of the Void; conversely running ONLY Decay but not Bolt makes it harder to close out a game and also make it hard to deal with must-answer 1-drops such as opposing DRS or Mother of Runes.

The 4C list's mana base obviously ends up being a bit worse by the nature of running 4 colors, but generally speaking I've not had too many instances of losing to Mana screw.

Deathrite Shaman is definitely broken. Despite my fondness for playing RUG Delver, I think the lack of DRS (and also general weakness to the shaman) makes the deck overall worse in comparison to Delver decks that *do* run DRS. He's a 1-mana planeswalker that does everything and more, and also helps patch up the weaknesses inherent to the archetype -- he provides mana, reach, life-gain, and graveyard disruption. A swiss army creature.

I think a noteworthy aspect of this list is how it's running 5 large threats. I appreciate how running 5 biggies (the 4 Tarmos + 1 Angler) + 4 DRS gives us a huge advantage against other Delver decks, particularly if they are only running Bolts as removal. Even YPyromancer isn't that big of a deal if you can answer him earlier enough, as the 1/1s are little more than temporary speed bumps against a massive Goyf.

Additionally, having Decay to clean up anything that manages to make it on board is a big advantage of playing this deck instead of Grixis. You don't just lose to a resolved permanent, and you also have a removal spell that WILL resolve.

The 15 sideboard cards: I think the GP's sideboard could use a few tweaks, and my changes are mostly based on my local metagame. I dropped Painful Truths entirely -- I'm not as enamored with the card as some people seem to be, but am running 1 Sylvan Library as a method of CA/selection. I also shifted around the removal selections to attack the decks I see locally, so now I am running:

1 Forked Bolt
1 Dark Blast (alternatively, could be a copy of something such as Fire Covenant or Toxic Deluge -- basically another card to beat D&T, UG Infect and Elves. Dark Blast is just really really good in general right now, even against Grixis Delver.)
1 U. JITTE (amazing if you get it running -- Life gain is relevant as well against UR and mono-Burn. I would probably not run it if not playing TNN though.)
1 TNN (this + Jitte = gg. Not really the best threat ever but has a lot of utility against current Tier decks. Seems a bit too narrow for this archetype to run MD though).
1 VClique (could instead be another Flusterstorm if you see more Combo than Miracles.)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle (alternatives to this and Grudge: Null Rod; Kolaghan's Command)
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroblast
2 S.Extraction (a 1/1 split with Grafdigger's Cage is alright in a meta with lots of GY decks; however Surgical is better against RG Lands, most forms of combo, and actually is sometimes worth bringing in against certain Miracles builds by functioning similarly to Stifle)
2 G. Charm -- versatile and necessary to beat decks packing lots of small creatures

Another card that could likely find its way in the list is Winter Orb. I am not sure which card would be best to cut, but given the prevalence of RG Lands, Miracles and Chalice midrange decks, this card is likely worth running -- perhaps a cut to consider is Darkblast if the local trend skews towards decks that are soft to this effect.

I also agree with Dan's comment re: Sulfur Elemental and/or Dread of Night. White creatures (particularly those in D&T, but also Monastery Mentor and the occasionally-encountered Lingering Souls, etc.) make this sort of hate worth considering. Again, not sure which card to cut, possibly Darkblast or Jitte if you consider it to be too slow/un-wieldly. I like running a bunch of cards that can be brought in against a wider range of decks, so at the moment I haven't really felt like these cards are necessary. But then again, I seem to ALWAYS face Death and frickin' Taxes at EVERY event I play, often multiple times within the same event. So perhaps I should over-board to help fight them.

Anyways, hope you're all well! Good luck to my fellow Delver players with whatever tournaments you're playing in this weekend!

[NegatorITA]

So I've been playi-testing Dan Signorigni's 4C Delver list from the last US Grand Prix (with a few minor SB tweaks) and it seems *really* amazing. I'm actually quite surprised to not see his list catching on more and posting results on Top 8 deck-list aggregator websites -- perhaps if his tiebreakers at GP Columbus were just a single percentage point-or-two better and he made the cut top 8, things would be different and more Delver pilots would be net-decking his list instead of the latest SCG Open Top 8 Grixis list at their local events and SCG Opens.

Regarding Eldritch Moon: I don't think the new set has introduced anything that will significantly impact or influence the Legacy metagame at large, so the deck lists from the Columbus GP are still extremely relevant despite already being a few months old at this point. The only thing that really seems worth testing is Bedlam Reveler -- which I think perhaps could take 1 slot of the Gurmag Angler or a Goyf if the deck incorporated a a copy of Badlands in its land-base... but the mana reduction aspect is actually harder to achieve than it might seem at first glance, *especially* in a Delver deck not running 4 copies of Gitaxian Probe.

link to Dan's GP tournament report and deck list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30822-GP-Columbus-9th-with-BURG-Delver

I'm trying not to come across as a fanboy, but I've been a fan of Dan's approach to deck building for awhile now and I think he and his local playgroup manage to come up with some great ideas. I think when good Legacy players and innovative deck builders such as the Hatfield brothers, Lejay, and of course Dan Signorigni post impressive results with a new deck, it's definitely worth paying attention to. Even if you don't agree with all of their card choices, it's often worth incorporating some aspects of their innovation in your own decks (e.g. Lejay splashing White in BUG Cascade for access to cards like Meddling Mage -- a worthwhile inclusion that patches up some of the weakness that deck has to combo).

Needless to say, all of the following discussion about the deck is just in my opinion and based on my personal perspective and impression of my local Legacy metagame (which is IRL paper Legacy tournaments and FNMs located in and around the NorthEast US). The perspectives might not be as applicable in a different metagame, e.g. MODO or European metagames. Thus, some of the analysis might come across as hyperbolic or even outright wrong based on the decks being played elsewhere. Anyways:

The main 60 is basically as close to Perfection you can get within the Delver archetype, especially given the current card pool and opposing DTBs in the current Legacy metagame. The mixture of spells -- the disruptive and efficient Blue counterspells that have synergy with each other and the 4 Wastelands; the versatile, efficient and powerful removal package of 4 Bolts + 3 Decay that cleans up basically every major and common threat in the format (and is further backed up by the SB removal options); the 13 most efficiently-costed and aggressively-minded aggro/control creatures in the format (with additional pressure provided by SB 3-CMC utility threats); the maximized consistency of the deck's role as the aggressor while disrupting the opponent's gameplan (whatever it may be), achieved with 8 copies of the format's best Blue cantrips... These elements all come together to provide a TON of strategic versatility and raw power. By running 4 Colors, the deck has access to all of the tools necessary to win against basically any Legacy deck -- and the cost of running 4 colors is mitigated by the color-fixing provided by DRS, a fetch/dual mana base, and the simplistic nature of most of the spells only requiring a single color of mana and/or the Duals all providing Blue mana*.

*perhaps it might be worth dropping the 9th fetchland or something else for a Bayou or a Badlands to have better color coverage, at the cost of occasionally awkward hands lacking a Blue source. So far though, the deck as-is with 6 Blue duals + 9 fetches hasn't had much trouble with getting timely access to the color needed for the current game's scenario.

With the deck's power all said, you still need to play very tightly to win. As Dan pointed out in his tournament report, this build needs every turn to be played optimally and turns need to planned out several moves ahead; otherwise you can lose due to a seemingly minor incremental advantage that your opponent achieved. This is different from how other Delver builds often achieve victory: Dan's 4C list often wins in what might seem like "close" games, whereas other Delver decks frequently win in an incredibly lop-sided fashion. The thing is, those same Delver decks frequently *lose* in a similarly lop-sided fashion and lack the cards necessary to come back from a losing board position (e.g. Grixis can lose to a resolved CB or Chalice on 1, and without Decay has a much tougher time getting back into the game). The 4C build has a chance of coming back in practically every game thanks to the mixture of spells (obviously ignoring instances of extreme luck for your opponent or massive misfortune on your part, which are simply a frustrating aspect of MtG -- randomness makes it so that those 80-20 matchups still end up as a loss 20% of the time).

Obviously, 4C Delver has some difficulty against decks that are traditionally good versus Delver.dec, but that's expected. However, and despite the archetype's softness to some strategies (e.g. RG Lands, D&T, Elves, and UWr Miracles to some extent), Dan's 4C list addresses these problematic matchups with its well-thought out card selection, and perhaps more importantly, it does this *without* giving up much power against the decks that Delver is traditionally favored against. Compare this to Brainstorm Brewery's "Miracles Slayer" Delver list (which among other changes, drops Goyf in favor of 4 Nimble Mongoose) -- while that build certainly *does* have a good Miracles matchup, it achieves that by weakening itself against a significant number of other decks that still need to be considered going into a tournament. I don't really think super heavy meta-gaming is an ideal approach in Legacy, as the format simply has so many decks that you're not at all guaranteed to even face the deck you've metagamed against, or at least enough times to justify it. This variety is also partially why I love the format so much.

In contrast, lot of the other Delver decks that only run 2-3 colors generally have a glaring weakness that can be easily exploited by other decks -- e.g. by running mostly 1-drops and not running Decay, you become vulnerable to CounterBalance and Chalice of the Void; conversely running ONLY Decay but not Bolt makes it harder to close out a game and also make it hard to deal with must-answer 1-drops such as opposing DRS or Mother of Runes.

The 4C list's mana base obviously ends up being a bit worse by the nature of running 4 colors, but generally speaking I've not had too many instances of losing to Mana screw.

Deathrite Shaman is definitely broken. Despite my fondness for playing RUG Delver, I think the lack of DRS (and also general weakness to the shaman) makes the deck overall worse in comparison to Delver decks that *do* run DRS. He's a 1-mana planeswalker that does everything and more, and also helps patch up the weaknesses inherent to the archetype -- he provides mana, reach, life-gain, and graveyard disruption. A swiss army creature.

I think a noteworthy aspect of this list is how it's running 5 large threats. I appreciate how running 5 biggies (the 4 Tarmos + 1 Angler) + 4 DRS gives us a huge advantage against other Delver decks, particularly if they are only running Bolts as removal. Even YPyromancer isn't that big of a deal if you can answer him earlier enough, as the 1/1s are little more than temporary speed bumps against a massive Goyf.

Additionally, having Decay to clean up anything that manages to make it on board is a big advantage of playing this deck instead of Grixis. You don't just lose to a resolved permanent, and you also have a removal spell that WILL resolve.

The 15 sideboard cards: I think the GP's sideboard could use a few tweaks, and my changes are mostly based on my local metagame. I dropped Painful Truths entirely -- I'm not as enamored with the card as some people seem to be, but am running 1 Sylvan Library as a method of CA/selection. I also shifted around the removal selections to attack the decks I see locally, so now I am running:

1 Forked Bolt
1 Dark Blast (alternatively, could be a copy of something such as Fire Covenant or Toxic Deluge -- basically another card to beat D&T, UG Infect and Elves. Dark Blast is just really really good in general right now, even against Grixis Delver.)
1 U. JITTE (amazing if you get it running -- Life gain is relevant as well against UR and mono-Burn. I would probably not run it if not playing TNN though.)
1 TNN (this + Jitte = gg. Not really the best threat ever but has a lot of utility against current Tier decks. Seems a bit too narrow for this archetype to run MD though).
1 VClique (could instead be another Flusterstorm if you see more Combo than Miracles.)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle (alternatives to this and Grudge: Null Rod; Kolaghan's Command)
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroblast
2 S.Extraction (a 1/1 split with Grafdigger's Cage is alright in a meta with lots of GY decks; however Surgical is better against RG Lands, most forms of combo, and actually is sometimes worth bringing in against certain Miracles builds by functioning similarly to Stifle)
2 G. Charm -- versatile and necessary to beat decks packing lots of small creatures

Another card that could likely find its way in the list is Winter Orb. I am not sure which card would be best to cut, but given the prevalence of RG Lands, Miracles and Chalice midrange decks, this card is likely worth running -- perhaps a cut to consider is Darkblast if the local trend skews towards decks that are soft to this effect.

I also agree with Dan's comment re: Sulfur Elemental and/or Dread of Night. White creatures (particularly those in D&T, but also Monastery Mentor and the occasionally-encountered Lingering Souls, etc.) make this sort of hate worth considering. Again, not sure which card to cut, possibly Darkblast or Jitte if you consider it to be too slow/un-wieldly. I like running a bunch of cards that can be brought in against a wider range of decks, so at the moment I haven't really felt like these cards are necessary. But then again, I seem to ALWAYS face Death and frickin' Taxes at EVERY event I play, often multiple times within the same event. So perhaps I should over-board to help fight them.

Anyways, hope you're all well! Good luck to my fellow Delver players with whatever tournaments you're playing in this weekend!



good analysis, shameful I work 14 hours day each days till september, by the time I'll be able to play again I bet something new will be printed and my deck shifted...:cry:
what it's really hard here to understand is what to cut for the sideboard cards, will need a lot of practice.

[eldub]

Going to try running a play set of Gurmag Angler in 4C this week. He's consistently over-performed for me lately. I need some Abrupt Decay back in my life though, I miss it dearly playing YP Grixis.

Instant (25)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spell Pierce
3x Thought Scour

Sorcery (5)
1x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Creature (12)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Gurmag Angler
1x Hooting Mandrills

Land (18)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Baleful Strix
1x Darkblast
1x Golgari Charm
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Sulfur Elemental
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique

[mgrinshpon]

Has anyone been streaming this deck?

[Whitefaces]

Has anyone been streaming this deck?

Not that I'm aware of, but there were plenty of 4c Delver decks in the Legacy Festival on MTGO that did well!


Going to try running a play set of Gurmag Angler in 4C this week. He's consistently over-performed for me lately. I need some Abrupt Decay back in my life though, I miss it dearly playing YP Grixis.

Please let us know how it goes, I'm curious about these 4x Angler lists with Thougth Scour.


Anyways, hope you're all well! Good luck to my fellow Delver players with whatever tournaments you're playing in this weekend!

Nice post! I agree with pretty much all of it :smile:

I had a break for a couple of weeks from this deck but will be back on it at my LGS and upcoming MKMs. If anyone else has tried Ghost Quarter recently I'd be very interested in hearing how it was.

[eldub]

Please let us know how it goes, I'm curious about these 4x Angler lists with Thougth Scour.

The deck has really performed well against the Abrupt Decay and Chalice decks thus far, which is nice since my meta has a few Shardless, Jund and Maverick players. I also really like how well the 3x Spell Pierce have performed since Decay is such a bulletproof answer to most permanents seeing play.

The only change I've made thus far is swapping the 4th Angler for a Hooting Mandrills. This gives the deck a bit more threat diversity and also alleviates a bit of the reliance on your Underground Seas. Getting knocked off Black mana can be a real issue for this version of the deck. The trample has been surprisingly relevant since the deck often puts it's opponents in chump-block mode.

I've not had any real issues casting my delve threats with 12 total cantrips. I've also been happy with the 3/1 split of Thought Scour and Probe thus far. 4 Thought Scour definitely felt like overkill to me.

[theMonster]

I've been curious about the 4-Angler lists, too. I guess Thought Scour fuels Angler, cleans up Brainstorm chaff if you don't have a fetchland, messes up opposing Ponders if necessary, etc., but it doesn't strike me as a high-impact card. I think Angler is strong as a big body in that it dodges Abrupt Decay, whereas Goyf doesn't, but I wonder if using four slots on Thought Scour to enable the full set is worth it. Would love to hear from quad-Fish pilots.

Would a creature suite like this make any sense?:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

You give up the efficiency of Goyf for the resiliency of TNN, but the top end threats are less susceptible to removal. Plus you don't have to worry about the Goyf/Angler non-bo and can forgo Thought Scour. This configuration is worse against combo, sure, but what if you expect a predominantly fair meta (like my local one in L.A.)? Is this viable? If so, what sort of spell suite would you play? Do you go the more midrange-y route and try a Painful Truths and/or Sylvan Library, or should you play Stifles and attack the mana? Maybe Stifle isn't great with a couple 3-drops in the deck, and TNN as a clock isn't quite fast enough to compliment Stifle, I dunno. Still pretty new to the Delver archetype, so forgive me if I'm asking silly questions.

Thanks, y'all!

[Manipulato]

Hey bUrgers,

went 5:0 today again after my last jurneys with Grixis Delver. Missed my El-Goyfos & Decays too much :laugh:

These were my MU's:

Round 1: UR Delver 2:0
Round 2: Elves 2:1
Round 3: Burn 2:0
Round 4: DnT 2:0
Round 5: Eldrazi 2:1

This was my list which is very close to my MKM Frankfurt & GP Prague list, just removed the 2 Bobis & the 1off TS...

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Normally I wanted to play the 3rd TS instead of the 1 Null Rod but had non. I never boarded the 2 Truths but just because I never faced control MU's like Miracles or Shardless. TNN felt a bit clunky today but he is just necessary vs DnT & Miracles. I never drew Library and boarded it out alot but same reason like with the Truths here.
The 3 pierces are also quite debatable because they always underperform exept for combo MU'S or burnish decks...Snare would be a optional replacement but I think with 3 AD in the MD it's not that necessary because they have the same targets (Balance, Chalice, Goyf etc).

I won 90% of my games just with MD cards and not with the SB which shows me that the MD is already really flexible, one point I really like over Grixis Delver for example.

Greetings

[Manipulato]

Ben Friedman wrote an interesting article about his 4c Delver and 4off Gurmag Angler Grixis list.

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-08192016-gurmag-anglin-and-delver-wranglin/

Check it out guys!

[theMonster]

I enjoyed the read, but I'd love some clarification about some of the 4C choices. He wanted to play a more midrange-y, value-oriented build of Delver, even going as far as replacing Goyfs (an offensive card) with Strixes (a defensive card) for "card advantage and trading off (his) creatures for (his) opponents'." Isn't part of the point of Delver decks to apply fast pressure to the opponent and trip them up enough before they can deal with it? By slowing the deck down with Strixes and five :3:+ CMC spells (including the Snapcasters), wouldn't that hinder the pilot's ability to accomplish that goal and make cards like Daze, Wasteland, and Spell Pierce worse? It seems like it's treading the line between tempo and midrange but doesn't do either with the most efficiency. Has anyone played Ben's 4C list? I wonder if it's worth it to just go all-out midrange and cut Delvers for more resilient threats and removal/disruption at that point, similar to what some Team America brewers have cooked up - probably a stupid idea, just seeing what everyone else thinks about such a hefty top-end in a Delver deck. I like the idea of a Delver deck with legs in theory, though, so I'm curious about how it plays. Hopefully he posts videos soon.

Help me understand!

[Manipulato]

I enjoyed the read, but I'd love some clarification about some of the 4C choices. He wanted to play a more midrange-y, value-oriented build of Delver, even going as far as replacing Goyfs (an offensive card) with Strixes (a defensive card) for "card advantage and trading off (his) creatures for (his) opponents'." Isn't part of the point of Delver decks to apply fast pressure to the opponent and trip them up enough before they can deal with it? By slowing the deck down with Strixes and five :3:+ CMC spells (including the Snapcasters), wouldn't that hinder the pilot's ability to accomplish that goal and make cards like Daze, Wasteland, and Spell Pierce worse? It seems like it's treading the line between tempo and midrange but doesn't do either with the most efficiency. Has anyone played Ben's 4C list? I wonder if it's worth it to just go all-out midrange and cut Delvers for more resilient threats and removal/disruption at that point, similar to what some Team America brewers have cooked up - probably a stupid idea, just seeing what everyone else thinks about such a hefty top-end in a Delver deck. I like the idea of a Delver deck with legs in theory, though, so I'm curious about how it plays. Hopefully he posts videos soon.

Help me understand!

His idea behind his 4c list was to create a fusion between a Delver shell and a Blade shell, means the tempo advantage from the delver deck and the removal package and value element of the blade deck. I could have told him that a Esper Delver sucks just because the same reasons UWR Delver sucks + Esper has no access to bolt, the most important card in a delver deck if you ask me.
His list is quite similar to mine exept for the fact that he cutted 2 Goyf for 2 SCM which I personally dont like that much, I played SCM on my own but in place of the TNN´s which felt solid. You just need to take advantage from the manadenial/tempo plan to close out the game fast enough before your oponent can draw himself out of the situations.

I find his SCG list ok but I really dislike his changes after the tournament. Every cc3 spell in your deck makes your dazes worse and worse which was the reason I switched from TNN´s in the past to Dark Confidants...

But I really think that the 4 Angler list is stronger than the YP version, espcially vs BGx decks, Eldrazi, Delver mirrors etc...The Grixis archetype just plays out like a "real" delver deck but is less flexible than the 4c versions. If the meta is full of Miracles & Chalice decks I would highly recommend the 4c version but otherwise the 4off Angler list is pretty solid.

[Hrothgar]

Hey bUrgers,

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Normally I wanted to play the 3rd TS instead of the 1 Null Rod but had non. I never boarded the 2 Truths but just because I never faced control MU's like Miracles or Shardless. TNN felt a bit clunky today but he is just necessary vs DnT & Miracles. I never drew Library and boarded it out alot but same reason like with the Truths here.
The 3 pierces are also quite debatable because they always underperform exept for combo MU'S or burnish decks...Snare would be a optional replacement but I think with 3 AD in the MD it's not that necessary because they have the same targets (Balance, Chalice, Goyf etc).

I won 90% of my games just with MD cards and not with the SB which shows me that the MD is already really flexible, one point I really like over Grixis Delver for example.

Greetings

Hi Manipulation, i play a very similar main/side.
Just +3 Stifle, -1 Pierce, -1 Sylvan, -1 Fetch main, same sideboard.

The deck is flexible, i like Stifle because give some options vs ANT and give value at our tempo plan.
By the way, Stifle are simply slot for Sideboarding in g2 and g3 vs some decks like Infect, Eldrazi etc.

With Stifle maindeck I don't Need to play Flusterstorm in side, and The 15's are The same of yours.

I don't find slots for Spell Snare..
Snare is good vs many decks in this meta, particularly vs Wasteland decks, where the double cost of Abrupt is difficult to keep (for this reason i like Stifle, I can protect my lands vs this kind of decks).
Vs Miracle imho Abrupt is better than Snare.

[blablub]

Jeah, i feel the same. Dan Signorinis List is the optimium imho. Stifle ist just sooo good.
I've just changed the 2 Painful Truths for a Sulfur Elemental and a Jitte as he mentioned. Postboard the Creature MatchUps are so good especially Death/Taxes because all of your Topdecks win on the spot. (Elemental, Jitte, Golgari Charm, Nemesis etc.)

The only card i can see changing is the 13th creature, the Gurmag Angler. Maybe a Snapcaster is better because you have all the good cards to flashback (obv. in a 4c Deck) If you do this i think you can replace the Nemesis in the Board with another one. You have so much cards to board in against creatures. with a second Snappy you have another good card against Combo.

Not sure if Snappy is better than Nemesis against Miracles though.

At the Moment i will stick to Dans list :)

[Jaytron]

But I really think that the 4 Angler list is stronger than the YP version, espcially vs BGx decks, Eldrazi, Delver mirrors etc...The Grixis archetype just plays out like a "real" delver deck but is less flexible than the 4c versions. If the meta is full of Miracles & Chalice decks I would highly recommend the 4c version but otherwise the 4off Angler list is pretty solid.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on why the 4 angler list is better overall than YP?

I guess you only really a small drop in % vs StP decks with the 4 angler list. 4c has always been on my radar, but I've been wary because of how greedy the manabase is. Also, I don't want to have to get japanese tarmogoyfs :P

[Manipulato]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on why the 4 angler list is better overall than YP?

I guess you only really a small drop in % vs StP decks with the 4 angler list. 4c has always been on my radar, but I've been wary because of how greedy the manabase is. Also, I don't want to have to get japanese tarmogoyfs :P

Hi,
those are my thoughts about the 4 Angler list vs the Standard 4 YP Grixis list...

- (Angler) More removal proof (AD, Bolt)
- (Angler)Better vs Edlrazi and BGx decks, trumps Goyf, TKS etc easily…
- (Angler)Better top deck overall
- You operate more on cc1 spells because you dont play YP and Thought Scour enables really fast 1 mana fishes
- You have more black sources for the DS and are rely not so on red mana
- Dodges sweepers like Golgari Charm/Rough//Tumble
- Does not die to connected Jitte´s
- Lower life loss because of Thought Scour instead of Probe -> Better burn/Delver MU´s
- More pierces MD -> Better vs burn and a better tempo plan than Cabal T. in general
- You can add AD more easily tot he SB because of a more black mana heavy MB (3 Sea/2Volc)

But how I said earlier, I think that in a Miracles heavy meta the YP version is better because the zombie fish is very weak to plows, SCM into plows, RIP and even Jace bounces...
One thing I think a lot of people dont see or ignore is that they should play more Snares in they´re Grixis Non-Decay Delver decks. If you have no acces to AD or any enchantment/artifact/big dudes removal MD I would strongly advice playing 2 Snares in they´re MD, it´s such a good card in the current meta and hits anything your´re afraid of like Balance, Chalice, Goyf, Jittes, Thalias and so on...

@ the 4c manabase: I can tell you from my personal experience that the manabase is not that SUPER fragile than most people think it is. I had really really few games where I had mana problems. If you play your lands correctly and carefully, fetch the right duals at the right time and calculate with a wasteland from your oponent so that you fetch into your important outs it´s not that big of a deal.
The 4c MB affords more playskill and more concentration but at the end of the day the small % of consistency you give up is worth the power you get from it in my mind.

I´m also not trying to convince anybody from my personal list, I just want to share my experience and thoughts with the community, especially because this thread has not so much traffic than other T1 threads and I dont want that this thread dies...
I agree that stifle is good in the current metagame especially vs Miracles & Shardless BUG and that the list from Dan is really solid but I´m just not a big fan of Stifle, just personal preference...

[Hrothgar]

Sure, Manipulation!
Here we are to share our experiences and improve our game!
Thanks to you for your thoughts about the list and the right card in the different meta.
I agree with you about Angler and Rip/Plow/Snap into Plow and other point of view.

Me too think the manabase is not too fragile but require right time to play.
From my personale experience, if we can play T1 Deathrite Shaman with Daze in hand, the manabase is too solid and the time of landing too simply.

[theMonster]

So I've started testing the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

Two Thought Scours should be enough to support three Anglers. The TNNs have been great against D&T, which is well-represented in my meta. The clunkiness has been worth the power. Two Spell Snares may be one too many, but I've liked them a lot in my mostly-fair meta. Counterspell has also overperformed.

The sideboard probably needs tweaking, notably more Miracles hate. I've liked the two Needles to combat Lands, Miracles, and D&T, but I probably need either a Winter Orb or a Painful Truths in the sideboard, too. The question is what to cut. There are matchups where Angler and/or TNN aren't the best, so I like having alternative threats to bring in for some number of them. Two Golgari Charms and a Darkblast are more a meta call for me, so I assume one of those is expendable.

I like this list for its customizability. One could certainly argue for a Forked Bolt main over Dismember, an adjustment of the permission package, running Snapcaster main over a TNN, etc. Maybe it's correct to go up to 19 lands and play the fourth Wasteland. I just wanted to float this idea and see what people thought.

Thanks!

[Whitefaces]

I agree with all of Manipulatos thoughts, nice summary! I just don't like how weak the Angler build is to Swords and Snap like you say, but it will be insane in the mirror and vs Shardless.

Though I've been playing with Stifle since Dans 9th place at GP Columbus and have been really happy with it, his MD is phenomenal.

I played four rounds at my LGS on Tuesday with the list below. I knew the Leovold would be very bad, but just wanted to give it a spin :tongue: It's usually either a third Goyf or a Snapcaster, still undecided on which one. As expected Leovold did nothing except get shuffled away with Ponder and Brainstorm!

R1 vs Manaless Dredge. My deck didn't cooperate, I mulled both games and got killed on T2. Yay. I also forgot to go on the draw G2 so deserved to lose that one!

R2 vs Miracle w/SfM. G1 I stifled and countered all his removal and got there with a Delver and DRS. He had a Jitte in hand but knew about a Decay from the Delver flip so never had a chance to use it, Mentor came down too late and the Decay stayed in my hand. G2 was a bit slower but I ground him out of cards and a goyf got there. Null Rod was the mvp, he showed me his hand at the end of three(!) Sensei's Divining Tops and a Jitte with a Batterskull on board. Dread of Night was fantastic too as he told me he shuffled away some Mentors which also would have taken over the game.

R3 vs DnT. G1 I had a 'Delver hand', T1 Delver then countered everything he did. G2 I had another good one, as did he with 3x StP and Vial, Thalia etc. But I got both TNN out to keep a Mirran Crusader under control. He started attacking through with a Mum but I had a bolt for her to stop those shenanigans. I didn't draw either Dread of Night so was surprised to win 2-0 as this matchup is usually very tough.

R4 vs Grixis Delver. I usually assume the control role in Delver mirrors due to having 7 pieces of MD removal and an extra land. G1 I drew 2 Stifles and 3 Wastelands which kept him down to chip away with a DRS for the win. G2 I had another Wasteland heavy draw and took out both his Seas and Trop and double forced a DRS which locked him out of black mana. The game was fairly easy from there.

I'm very, very happy with the maindeck and will be playing this at MKM London, is anybody else from here coming to that? Would be cool to meet up! The SB still needs some work though. I'll be working out some tables soon and post them here for some help.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Leovold (will usually be a Snap)
1 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest

SB:
1 Null Rod
2 Dread of Night
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 True-Name Nemesis

[Neo900]

I like the idea about thought scour. Also allows to get free of the 2 cards from a Brainstorm or ponder.
I saw some lists with Umezawa's Jitte main or sideboard. of course jitte is a strong card but costs at total 4 mana.
I am also a fan of Baleful strix and price of progress. price doesn't hurt us much. when we have 2 or 3 lands and the opponent has 5.

[Whitefaces]

I like the idea about thought scour. Also allows to get free of the 2 cards from a Brainstorm or ponder.
I saw some lists with Umezawa's Jitte main or sideboard. of course jitte is a strong card but costs at total 4 mana.
I am also a fan of Baleful strix and price of progress. price doesn't hurt us much. when we have 2 or 3 lands and the opponent has 5.

Getting Brainstorm locked sucks, but it doesn't happen that often. I don't think it's wise to include that as a pro for a card, or at least weigh it too heavily. Drawing a random card is very bad in a deck like Delver as we have so many cards with steep diminishing returns (Daze, extra lands, pierce etc).

Umezawa's Jitte is indeed very powerful, but only when the creature suite can support it. 4C usually can't, you want things like Young Pyromancer Tokens or Strix to use it effectively.

Price seems very bad in a no basics deck. I understand you want it for things like Lands, but there are better options for that matchup and in all the other ones you want it (midrange and Eldrazi I guess) it depends on you being ahead on board already.

[btm10]

Having tried the Thought Scour build, I really like everything about it but Thought Scour. Snapcaster Mage is great despite costing 3, Angler is great, Spell Pierce is great. I think the Scours just want to be Stifles or Thoughtseizes. It's inconceivable that you'd choose to play Thought Scour in a world where Preordain is legal.

[theMonster]

I agree with all of Manipulatos thoughts, nice summary! I just don't like how weak the Angler build is to Swords and Snap like you say, but it will be insane in the mirror and vs Shardless.

Since I'm vacillating on my creature package, having started to test a 3 Angler/2 TNN/2 Scour list, I was curious about this comment. Isn't Tarmogoyf just as vulnerable as Angler to Swords? I think any deck that's playing something other than Young Pyromancer as its top-end threat is gonna be more susceptible to Swords. Not sure if there's much we can do about it. That's one reason I want to play 2 TNNs in my 75.


Having tried the Thought Scour build, I really like everything about it but Thought Scour. Snapcaster Mage is great despite costing 3, Angler is great, Spell Pierce is great. I think the Scours just want to be Stifles or Thoughtseizes. It's inconceivable that you'd choose to play Thought Scour in a world where Preordain is legal.

Yeah, I've played 50ish games with Thought Scour - small sample size, I know - and I agree that there are times when I wished it were any other card. But with notable frequency I've checked for Delver, seen that it's something I didn't want, and Scoured it away. I've lucked into crucial countermagic by having another instant-speed cantrip besides Brainstorm, too. And I've gotten a T2 Angler online before, although that's rare. But it's a super situational card, for sure. I wonder if the benefits of Angler - high CMC to dodge Decay (and, less so, Counterbalance), ability to shrink opposing Goyfs, can stare down a Smasher, often one mana instead of two - outweigh the risks - more vulnerable to graveyard hate, not as good in multiples, tension with Snapcaster and Deathrite Shaman, etc. If Angler is worlds better than Goyf right now (and I don't know if it is - y'all can tell me), then I think a couple Scours doesn't derail the deck, in my experience; otherwise Stifle/Goyf looks good to me.

[Whitefaces]

Since I'm vacillating on my creature package, having started to test a 3 Angler/2 TNN/2 Scour list, I was curious about this comment. Isn't Tarmogoyf just as vulnerable as Angler to Swords? I think any deck that's playing something other than Young Pyromancer as its top-end threat is gonna be more susceptible to Swords. Not sure if there's much we can do about it. That's one reason I want to play 2 TNNs in my 75.

Sure, but Goyf requires no setup but you're playing Scours to support Angler.

I've not played the Scour version myself yet though, so I'm speaking with no experience. I just don't like the idea of cantrips that are drawing a random card. I will agree that Angler is situationally a lot better than goyf, I'm just not keen on the setup costs.

[theMonster]

Sure, but Goyf requires no setup but you're playing Scours to support Angler.

I've not played the Scour version myself yet though, so I'm speaking with no experience. I just don't like the idea of cantrips that are drawing a random card. I will agree that Angler is situationally a lot better than goyf, I'm just not keen on the setup costs.

I liken Thought Scour to Gitaxian Probe. They each draw a random card and serve a function in their respective builds: Scour both fuels Angler and removes chaff from the top of the deck after Brainstorms, Delver checks, etc.; Probe fuels Pyromancer/Cabal Therapy and provides information at the expense of two life. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but they're similar. Successful Pyro lists run 3-4 Probes, so I don't necessarily see the harm in running 2-3 Scours if the Angler-over-Goyf payoff is worth it. That's what I'm still deciding on. Running Goyf allows you to play 2-3 extra spells instead of the Scours - seems like Stifle is the popular choice, and that sounds good. Given that Angler and Goyf each suck against Swords, maybe it comes down to how many Abrupt Decays one sees in his/her meta.

[btm10]

Sure, but Goyf requires no setup but you're playing Scours to support Angler.

I've not played the Scour version myself yet though, so I'm speaking with no experience. I just don't like the idea of cantrips that are drawing a random card. I will agree that Angler is situationally a lot better than goyf, I'm just not keen on the setup costs.

I agree that Scour is too high a cost to pay just to support (more) Anglers, but I don't know if a vanilla 4/5 is enough given the prevalence of both Eldrazi and opposing Anglers. If you're going to commit to making your Tarmogoyfs 5/6s, I think it's the better choice as it plays much better alongside the Stifle/Pierce plan. I don't think you need Thought Scour for the first three Anglers; playing the game should be enough as long as you aren't being too reactive.

[blablub]

4/5 Goyf is enough in the most scenarios. Grixis is such a good MatchUp for Delver with Goyf and Decay. You need just 2 answers post-board for the Angler. i play a Murderous Cut and an Edict in the Board for this. The same with the 5/5 Eldrazi. Or you can add Baleful Strixes aswell. They will block an Angler and grow your Goyf to 5/6

[theMonster]

I agree that Scour is too high a cost to pay just to support (more) Anglers, but I don't know if a vanilla 4/5 is enough given the prevalence of both Eldrazi and opposing Anglers. If you're going to commit to making your Tarmogoyfs 5/6s, I think it's the better choice as it plays much better alongside the Stifle/Pierce plan. I don't think you need Thought Scour for the first three Anglers; playing the game should be enough as long as you aren't being too reactive.

Ideally I'd love to eschew Thought Scour while still having a big enough graveyard for Anglers. The 5/5 body has been excellent in my testing against Eldrazi. Being able to consistently stymie Thought-Knot Seer and always trade with Smasher is big game. And (often) costing one mana and not being susceptible to Decay are big pluses, too, of course. The Pyro lists run 3-4 Gitaxian Probe alongside 2 Anglers, so logic would dictate that I'd need more than that to support a third (though I'd prefer to run a more impactful spell than Probe - maybe a couple Thoughtseize?). At least I wouldn't have Therapies that must stay in the graveyard, so that's more food for Angler. Gotta test a little more and see what I can get away with.

And 5/6 Goyfs are tough to achieve, in my experience. When I played the Goyf/Stifle list a few weeks ago, for example, I noticed that the only maindeck sorceries were Ponders. How do we best beef up Goyf, then? Do we take a page out of Modern Jund Delirium's book and run, say, a Seal of Fire/Tarfire? Baleful Strix doesn't really jibe with the deck's game plan, so that doesn't seem good.

[btm10]

Ideally I'd love to eschew Thought Scour while still having a big enough graveyard for Anglers. The 5/5 body has been excellent in my testing against Eldrazi. Being able to consistently stymie Thought-Knot Seer and always trade with Smasher is big game. And (often) costing one mana and not being susceptible to Decay are big pluses, too, of course. The Pyro lists run 3-4 Gitaxian Probe alongside 2 Anglers, so logic would dictate that I'd need more than that to support a third (though I'd prefer to run a more impactful spell than Probe - maybe a couple Thoughtseize?). At least I wouldn't have Therapies that must stay in the graveyard, so that's more food for Angler. Gotta test a little more and see what I can get away with.

And 5/6 Goyfs are tough to achieve, in my experience. When I played the Goyf/Stifle list a few weeks ago, for example, I noticed that the only maindeck sorceries were Ponders. How do we best beef up Goyf, then? Do we take a page out of Modern Jund Delirium's book and run, say, a Seal of Fire/Tarfire? Baleful Strix doesn't really jibe with the deck's game plan, so that doesn't seem good.

It depends on exactly how you're set up. Thoughtseize is a pretty reasonable card, and I don't mind Preordain, Forked Bolt, or Probe for more Sorceries. Because getting Goyf to 5/6 is only critical in creature matchups, the options you listed are all solid, as is Dead Weight if you're heavier black. Seal of Primordium is ok against Eldrazi to deal with Jittes and Chalice, though Seal of Doom is probably too slow to matter most of the time.

[David Kaplan]

Hey guys. I want to discuss BUGoose, which is halfway between RUG and bUrg. I am very tempted to include red for Bolts, I got stuck a couple times in a tournament last week and felt that Decay was often better than Bolt, D&T being the glaring exception. I have success with Jim Davis' BUG Stifle, I wanted to slim down a bit, as Confidant and Goyf can often be clunky when holding up a U for Stifle/Pierce or to fake it. The only two sorcery speed 2CMC cards are a Winter Orb and Null Rod in the SB.

A podcast outlined "Miracle Killer" BUG Goose. Paul Michel T8'd the Baltimore Classic after the podcast was released: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-022-miracle-slayer-delver/ The original list is there. I tweaked it a bit for my meta. D&T and Lands are my toughest matchups. Pithing Needle does a lot of work in both, in addition to Miracles and some others. I am big on Needle, I may be overvaluing it, but it's done work for me. The 0's are considerations.

Thoughts on the value of slimming down to Goose > Goyf and leaving the Bolts at home?


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion Clique
0 True-Name Nemesis
0 Tarmogoyf
0 Gurmag Angler
0 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB
2 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
0 Painful Truths
0 Darkblast
0 True-Name Nemesis
0 Sylvan Library
0 Baleful Strix

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,

went in 1st place with 5:1 at a 36 man turney today in Austria. Sadly I lost my first Top 8 Match and went in 5th place after Top 8.
Played the list from the last page just changed -1 Surgical + 1 Grafdigger's Cage in the SB.

Round 1: UB Faerys Won 2:0
Round 2: Burn Won 2:1
Round 3: Chalice Affinity Won 2:0
Round 4: Pod NicFit Lost 1:2
Round 5: Grixis Delver Won 2:1
Round 6: BUG Goodstuff/Midrange Won 2:1

Top 8 vs 4c Deathblade Lost 0:2 because of a poor mulligan to five with no lands & a close G2.

All in all the list performd well but Spell Pierce is still the weakest card in the MD especially if you dont face any combo deck, it was just good vs burn...
I had some problems vs zombie fish in the Grixis & BUG MU who outclased my 4/5 goyfs. Have to think about a solution for that, maybe a 1off Dismember in the MD, we will see.
The 2 Painful Truths from the SB were great! Brought me back a couple of times...
The 2 TNN felt also really good and closed many games, but I think zombie fishes would also have done they´re Job. I still prefer TNN over the fish just because of DnT & Miracles which I did not face the day.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Nicely done, but your meta looks janky. Mine is also...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Jaytron]

Jarvis took friedman's list to a top 8 at the last SCG: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/469545#online

Very close to the list in his article. I don't really see the reason to run four surgicals, tbh

[theMonster]

Jarvis took friedman's list to a top 8 at the last SCG: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/469545#online

Very close to the list in his article. I don't really see the reason to run four surgicals, tbh

Another user 5-0d a league (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13414&d=278694&f=LE) with the same 75 as Jarvis. These beefy Delver decks seem to be doing well.

Has anyone piloted this list? Is 15 threats, five of them :3:+ drops, as clunky as it appears? Does Delver flip reliably with 26 spells? This configuration certainly seems powerful and resilient ... if you can cast the cards.

I agree, Jaytron, four Surgicals feels like overkill.

[Jaytron]

Another user 5-0d a league (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13414&d=278694&f=LE) with the same 75 as Jarvis. These beefy Delver decks seem to be doing well.

Has anyone piloted this list? Is 15 threats, five of them :3:+ drops, as clunky as it appears? Does Delver flip reliably with 26 spells? This configuration certainly seems powerful and resilient ... if you can cast the cards.

I agree, Jaytron, four Surgicals feels like overkill.

I'll give it a whirl this week if I don't play RUG for funsies.

I bet it'll feel slower but more powerful than other variants. TNN/SCM are slow cards.

I get that he wants 4 surgicals for lands, but I feel like there aren't many other MUs where you want THAT many. Unless you're brining some number in against somewhat unconventional MUs.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you play 4 Surgical Extraction and 3 Snapcaster Mage, I feel like at some point you just eliminate any viable strategy a deck can use to win. Maybe that's not the intended use, but if you grab 12 cards out of their list, I am almost positive you are highly favored.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[ORDAL]

i make 5-0 on mtgo league with this list of 4c delver..... http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13432&d=278829&f=LE
i think the right pick of 2 variable creatures are 2 TNN

[btm10]

If you play 4 Surgical Extraction and 3 Snapcaster Mage, I feel like at some point you just eliminate any viable strategy a deck can use to win. Maybe that's not the intended use, but if you grab 12 cards out of their list, I am almost positive you are highly favored.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Those 12 cards have to be highly relevant and irreplaceable for that to work, and that basically only happens against combo, where I'd much rather spend the slot(s) on additional countermagic or discard. Where other than Lands and Dredge would you even bring the fourth (and maybe even the third) copy in? I'd much rather have Invasive Surgery, Therapy, Thoughtseize, Flusterstorm, an additional Spell Pierce, or actual Counterspell even against Reanimator or a Storm variant. One or two Surgicals are fine, especially with Snapcaster Mage (though I'd supplement a 1-of Surgical with 1-2 additional pieces of graveyard hate). More than that and I think we're veering into running a lot of a very narrow effect on an axis where we already have 4 maindeck pieces of interaction.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No they don't, they only need to be important, not highly anything, and I would argue that in legacy, if it's in the deck, it's probably pretty important. Decay their goyfs and surgical it? Now nothing will contest your boardstate of Angler. Take their first fetch, take their Brainstorm.

Look, I think more Surgicals in a Snapcaster deck is better than fewer. 3 would probably be my number, but I can't really play this as 2 team members already do and we have to keep a little diversity. Also, overloading on specific hate is fine and even wise if you feel you only have a couple problem matchups in a known meta.

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[btm10]

No they don't, they only need to be important, not highly anything, and I would argue that in legacy, if it's in the deck, it's probably pretty important. Decay their goyfs and surgical it? Now nothing will contest your boardstate of Angler. Take their first fetch, take their Brainstorm.

This is a very old tactic, and it's been largely abandoned because it's ineffective. Do you really want to Shock and Duress yourself in a Delver mirror? How is Surgical any better an answer to Tarmogoyf than Dismember, Snuff Out, Submerge, or Decay? I guess it's kind of not absolute garbage against Miracles now that they've gone all in on Snapcaster Mage, but what else are you going to do with it even there? Surgical their second Terminus with the trigger on the stack? That seems way worse than Winter Orb, Painful Truths, Vendilion Clique, Pyroblast, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Flusterstorm, and Abrupt Decay.



Look, I think more Surgicals in a Snapcaster deck is better than fewer. 3 would probably be my number, but I can't really play this as 2 team members already do and we have to keep a little diversity. Also, overloading on specific hate is fine and even wise if you feel you only have a couple problem matchups in a known meta.

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Overloading on hate if you expect a lot of opponents to be operating on a specific axis is fine, but wouldn't you rather overload with haymakers than things that are merely ok? Overloading on Surgicals for Lands + misc. graveyard decks is like running four Smelts when you expect lots of Tezzerator and Affinity.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It seems where we differ is where we believe Surgical's power level to be. I'm a very old player, coming up on decade number two in the game. Old doesn't mean bad. Also, how something seems and how something actually is are generally different things. That's why testing is important, and you can argue until you are blue in the face, but a 5-0 is a 5-0, and that's not really something you can really have an argument against. I feel like Surgical is a haymaker. I've never resolved one and said "well, that sucked." And perhaps you don't see it make a difference so maybe that's why you feel as you do.

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[Manipulato]

Have to agree here with BTM10. In my personal experience surgical is only good in the following Scenarios:

A. You face a combo deck like ANT, S&T etc...
B. You face a deck which works with the GY or has a GY dependant engine like Lands, 4c Loam, Punishing Jund, Dredge, Reanimator etc...
C. You face a delver deck which has only one source to produce a single color of mana like RUG Delver with 3 Trop/3 Volc so you can cut them off one color completley.

In all other fair MU´s it´s strictly wrong in my opinion to bring it in just because it doesn´t affect the board or disrupt your oponent unless you get super lucky and he holds 2 bolts or whatever in his hand.

I have a buddy who boarded in the surgicals vs me a couple of times (He was on blade me on 4c Delver) and the surgicals did NOTHING. He had the same arguement like you but at the end of the day I will just draw a other card instead of the surgicaled one...

But I will not try to convince you here from the oposite, this is just my experience from the last 11 years of legacy.

[Hrothgar]

I totally agree the last Manipulatio thoughts.
Surgical imho is a great card, obj, i like to bring 1x in every deck I play, sometimes 2x, but the right uses are right in the scenarios write by Manipulatio.

I can add only a thought:

- vs RUG, Surgical is situational.
If the RUG player have put a clock and are in "defense mode", Surgical do nothing.
Surgical is better in the first turn vs RUG, but many times only a dead card in mid game, because RUG is THE Tempo deck and remove the green is good if he don't have creature for make a clock.

This is my experience.

[Whitefaces]

Agree with the guys above, Surgical is a really bad card to SB in vs fair decks, it's something I see so often and it's a hard one to explain to someone after it's 'worked'. But so often it just 0-for-1s you and loses you two life.

[jarvisyu]

Did you mean my evil twin 'Jarvus Yu'?

RE all of that, I was bored, and asked Friedman to assemble a Grixis list for me on Saturday night at 9pm, because I was watching Worlds coverage at my house and decided I wanted to drive down to Richmond Sunday morning to battle, and I find that switching decks often keeps you sharper.

R1: 2-1 over Goblins (Forced a Tarfire in game 3 so i could land a jitte hit with a flipped delver)
R2: 2-1 over ANT (Squeaked out a close one in g3 when I was at 16 and he emptied with storm count 7. I force pitching a blue card to go to 15 and let him only have 14 goblins and manage to deathrite him out before I die)
R3: 2-1 over Jund (Angler and TNN as well as Snapcaster 'flashbacking' an Abrupt Decay were crucial here).
R4: 2-1 over Lossett playing Miracles (Got him to 1 g1, didn't draw 1 of my 3 maindeck Decays so I lost. G2 was a slaughter in my favor, and g3 he apparently tapped out when he had Spell Snare in hand, but I snapcastered ponder that turn, and managed to pull enough ahead).
R5: 2-1 over Baltimore guy playing Miracles (lost g2 to a Blood Moon.)

R6/7: draw.

R1 of T8: Lost 1-2 to Colorless Eldrazi. Oblivion Sower in game 1 gave him enough lands to eye up a reality smasher the turn before I killed him with TNN.

RE: Surgical Extraction. I only brought it in vs ANT, and I generally hate bringing it in most 'fair' matchups. Clearly I'd bring it in vs Lands.... (lol).

[jarvisyu]

Another user 5-0d a league (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13414&d=278694&f=LE) with the same 75 as Jarvis. These beefy Delver decks seem to be doing well.

Has anyone piloted this list? Is 15 threats, five of them :3:+ drops, as clunky as it appears? Does Delver flip reliably with 26 spells? This configuration certainly seems powerful and resilient ... if you can cast the cards.

I agree, Jaytron, four Surgicals feels like overkill.

I believe that mtgo username is literally Friedman's roommate.

[theMonster]

Any thoughts on the list overall, Jarvis?

[jarvisyu]

Any thoughts on the list overall, Jarvis?

It was good but not like super insane. I haven't seriously played a Delver deck since 2012, but I feel like it's riding a bike. Just play Magic and win most of your matches 2-1 :p

[Jaytron]

I tried the 4c Delver list that Jarvis ran today at a weekly. Went 3-1, beating Grixis, DnT, and Maverick. Lost to Miracles.


I didn't like was the 4 surgicals. I'd be fine going down a surgical and putting in a Forked bolt or something.
I didn't like the higher density of creatures/lands and lower density of spells. Losing to miracles was because a Delver didn't flip for four turns.
I did like 3 decays main
I did like 3 spell pierce main

[Whitefaces]

Had a bit of a disaster at MKM London this weekend. I still think the deck is great, just things didn’t swing my way and likely played a little loose.

R1 vs Sneak and Show. G1 I kept a hand of some removal, a pierce, daze and a goyf. Since I didn’t have any real pressure he just cantripped into land drops then played a Sneak Attack around all the soft countermagic. G2 I mulled to 6 and kept Volc, Volc, Pyroblast, Pyroblast, Needle, Wasteland and scryed a DRS to the bottom. I think this keep is reasonable, but maybe I should have tried to find a T1 Delver or DRS? Would like peoples thoughts here. He again played slowly as I didn’t have pressure and let a first Show and Tell be countered then forced my second my second blast. This is usually a good matchup so it was a depressing first round loss.

R2 vs Turbo Angler Delver. I think this is a pretty bad matchup, Angler trumps everything but TNN. G1 he drew 3 wastelands and I drew 2 but had a crucial stifle for one of them and got ahead and a Delver got there. G2 he had two anglers out by T3 around my force and Flusterstorm and I couldn’t find anything to deal with them. G3 I mulled no landers to 5 and kept Fetch, Delver, Pyroblast, Bolt and Brainstorm. Scryed a nonland to the bottem. Delver got bolted, Volc got wasted and Brainstorm got dazed. Ouch!

R3 vs Storm. Both games were similar, had some early pressure and was able to counter everything.

R4 vs Team America. This was a bit of a slaughter, we’re just so much more efficient with lightning bolt and I had solid draws.

R5 vs Lands. G1 I conceded on my turn 2 thanks to Fetch for Forest > Mox discarding Grove > Mox discarding Wasteland> Exploration > Loam. I would never get above a single land. G2 was a slugfest, I Surgicalled Fires, caught Loam with Invasive Surgery with Delirium but he was copying Wasteland with Stages and was close to wasting all my lands anyway with Ports and Tabernacle making life a bit of a misery. I just had a single Shaman with both Seas gone, but attacks for one and a bolt finally got there. He naturally drew the combo but I had a Diabolic Edict for it. G3 I had a solid hand but two brainstorms with fresh 3 cards gave me no lands.

R6 vs Lands (yay!). This went a bit better and I managed to tempo my way to wins both games, G1 a Ponder finding a crucial Bolt the turn before I die to Marit Lage. G2 a turn 1 Delver and t3 Goyf went the distance without much opposition thanks to soft countermagic and a surgical on Wasteland. His draws weren’t as good as R5 though.

So ended up 3-3.

Decklist

4 Delver
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
2 Trop
2 Sea
2 Volc
9 Fetch

SB
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread of Night
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction

[Hrothgar]

I Dissection,

some thoughts:

- G2 vs Sneak: imho the keep is good. You have all to defend ourself. Pyroblast for Show, Pithing for Sneak, Wasteland for Boseiju. I don't know how lose this game ^^

- G3 vs Turbo Angler: meh.

- G3 vs Lands: meh.

Imho you don't have more lucky in this specific rounds.
Anyway if you think that Lands is a bad matchup for us, win 3/5 rounds is not bad eh :wink:

[Darkness]

I have been following the move from traditional Grixis Delver to the 4c Delver Strategies popularized by Ben Friedman and Jarvis Yu. I seem to like those lists more than the traditional lists. The Abrupt decays feel extremely strong MD. You have spell pierce MD for combo matches. The SB allows you to really go hard on strong hate spells and Snapcaster mage creates a high density of those spells. I haven't seen a huge issue with mana and the different colors needed. I think this is ultimately what Delver will become.

[Jaytron]

I have been following the move from traditional Grixis Delver to the 4c Delver Strategies popularized by Ben Friedman and Jarvis Yu. I seem to like those lists more than the traditional lists. The Abrupt decays feel extremely strong MD. You have spell pierce MD for combo matches. The SB allows you to really go hard on strong hate spells and Snapcaster mage creates a high density of those spells. I haven't seen a huge issue with mana and the different colors needed. I think this is ultimately what Delver will become.

Yeah, the list feels extremely powerful. I've had trouble with Delvers flipping naturally, have you?

[jarvisyu]

Yeah, the list feels extremely powerful. I've had trouble with Delvers flipping naturally, have you?

it's approximately 26/60 compared to RUG's 30/60.

43.33% vs 50%. That's definitely noticeable, but imho not huge.

[Hrothgar]

I've had trouble with Delvers flipping naturally, have you?

I don't have this problem.
This deck have not a killer flip like RUG but similar to Team America.
Anyway good %.

[Jaytron]

I don't have this problem.
This deck have not a killer flip like RUG but similar to Team America.
Anyway good %.

My problem was flipping them post board in matches where needle/jitte comes in and the spell density seems to drop a bunch.

Played today in a 3k, went 3-4 with Jarvis/Friedman's list -1 Surgical +1 Murderous Cut

R1- Grixis Delver- OTD
Mull to 5 g1, keep a crap hand with 2x force and no lands. Never drew a land.
G2- Win with TNN?
G3- I draw a ton of removal, but he's able to keep drawing threats.
0-1


R2- Sneak/Show- OTP
G1- SnT T2, I left a force on top with ponder to flip my delver, because I put him on miracles when he played flooded strand into island ponder.

G2- Don't really remember much, but he didn't do a whole lot and I got him with 2 delvers

G3- He cantrips a lot and manages to stick a defense grid. I have a flipped delver and a TNN, and can't cast any counterspells. Luckily he doesn't draw any action and dies to the fast clock with me having bolts in hand
1-1

R3- Tezz OTD
G1- Delver doesn't flip for a while again. He basically kill s himself with ancient tomb trying to resolve planeswalkers that I'm able to decay. He also lands an Ensnaring bridge that gets decayed. He eventually hardcasts a batterskull with me having TNN and unflipped delver on the board. He's at 6, and my delver finally flips off a decay and I swing in for lethal.

G2- He has a fast start that empties his hand fairly fast. I'm able to stick a T2 TNN. He plays a notion thief out EOT (not sure why he didn't want to wait longer). Resolves a Tezzeret, finds chalice with tezzeret and plays chalice on one, while I stare at a hand of Needle, Bolt, Ponder, Brainstorm, land. I felt pretty bad... until I ripped a decay off the top. I decay his chalice, needle tezzeret, and proceed with TNN beats.
2-1

R4- DnT OTD
G1/2 just get crushed. Games are completely one sided. Delver doesn't flip for 5+ turns G2.. Bringing in Jitte/Needles and just drawing them instead of having my delver flip felt terrible.
2-2

R5- Lands OTD
G1- He goes T1 Mox Port.. and I get really sad. I play T1 DRS only to get it punishing fired EOT. I'm fairly certain I'm going to lose this, but I somehow make it to 3 mana despite him having loam active. I'm able to cast TNN followed up by a Gurmag. He plays a Tabernacle, but I'm able to pay and waste it. Without exploration he's unable to really tabby lock me out of the game before I've already done a ton of damage.

G2- I T1 fetch ponder. I see a 2 lands and another card and decide to keep. I pass and he plays T1 Grove, Exploration and WL's my land. I surgical his WL end of turn and see his hand of 2x Crop rotation exploration. I run a needle out naming stage. I get a Gurmag online fairly quickly (t3/4?) and a DRS active. He eventually gambles for a P-fire as I've managed to counter his crop rotations. Gamble hits p-fire and he tries to return with grove, and I surgical in resp. He concedes shortly after.
3-2 (2-0 vs lands! highlight of the day!)

R6- BUG Nic Fit
G1- Got Rhino'd. After color screwing him a bit, he's able to fight out of it. He lands a rhino when I've already exhausted my removal and I can't find an angler. TNN doesn't do much despite being resolved late-ish. My hand was slow and he was able to build up.

G2- He has a much more explosive start and I get run over by rhino.
3-3 (This was the only MU where MD Decay made me very sad)

R7- Pox
G1- We both mull to 5 but he's able to kill me with 2 factories and I'm only able to find 1 wasteland.

G2- I land an early angler and Delver. Delver, once again, doesn't flip for a while. I die to 3x Bloodghast beats
3-4

Things I liked:

MD Decays
Jitte
MD TNN
Beating Lands 2-0 thanks to 3x Surgicals


Things I didn't like:

Snapcasters didn't feel like they did much work
Post board, delvers seem to never flip
CFB not having air conditioning and it basically being 100 degrees in the damn room
Delvers not flipping


Maybe when playing the post board games that spell density drops a bunch, Delver isn't that great to keep in? Unsure...

[crush]

Hi,

I went 5-1 in a local (casual) tournament with this list. I came more or less to the same conclusions as Jaytron.

Changes to the list:
MD:
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Spell Snare
+1 Counterspell

SB:
-1 Surgical
-1 Jitte
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Murderous Cut

Props:
1) TNN main deck
2) 3 Decays main deck

Slops:
1) Delvers not flipping
2) Snapcasters were used to pay for FoWs 99% of the time
3) Murderous Cut did not cut it

Going forward:
-2 Snapcasters
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Spell Snare

Rework sideboard as well.

[Hrothgar]

Jaytron: I think Death and Taxes is a very bad matchup for all the deck now. Imho the new prints (Prelate, Jailer, Recruiter, Kambal) are no sense. All the Delver deck suffer this deck and, if you flip Delver fast (as me :laugh:) anyway he can't survivor at 4 plow, 3 path, 4 Fliker by Vial or Cavern.
Imho you have bad luck, obv, 5 turns without flips is not right...but anyway the matchup are VERY bad.

Nicfit and Pox are 2 semi-randomic deck and our Delver have difficulty, particularly if our Delver do not flip.
I don't think you can discourage for loss this 2 game (how many Nic of Pox we can find in a tournament?) or for unflip of our best beater (is the best creature of the deck, in some common situation he can win alone).

Believe in Delver, he is the core of Delver.deck ah ah :laugh:

Death and Taxes, instead, is a real bad problem.
A competitive deck who we can find in tournament.
I hope for something to help us in this matchup in future prints.


Crush: I don't like Snapcaster in this deck because is too mana intensive but many very good player play it. Why you can try with Stifle like me? :smile:

[Manipulato]

@ the DnT topic...I had no problems in the past months beating DnT. The 2 MD TNN in my list are super strong vs them and Golgari Charm out of the SB is also huge. That´s one reason I dont jump on the Angler train, he´s good vs non-plow decks but vs DnT TNN is just straigt better.
The fact that they play more cc3 creatures in they´re deck is also good for us because they are slower now and Daze becomes much stronger. If you really want to hate them you can add 1 or 2 Dread of Night to the SB or play a 2nd Forked Bolt/Grim Lavamancer...

It´s still not an easy MU but really managable if you build your deck correctly vs them.

My current list Looks like that:

14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

27 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

[Hrothgar]

@ the DnT topic...I had no problems in the past months beating DnT. The 2 MD TNN in my list are super strong vs them and Golgari Charm out of the SB is also huge. That´s one reason I dont jump on the Angler train, he´s good vs non-plow decks but vs DnT TNN is just straigt better.
The fact that they play more cc3 creatures in they´re deck is also good for us because they are slower now and Daze becomes much stronger. If you really want to hate them you can add 1 or 2 Dread of Night to the SB or play a 2nd Forked Bolt/Grim Lavamancer...

Sure, i think your words are correct but the last 3 prints (Recruiter, Prelate and Kambal), adds a lot of power to Death and Taxes. Obv True Name is our jewel in this matchup, can close the game or block the Batterskull without give life, but a resolved Prelate, give us a lot of problems because we need to make a choose for targeting Abrupt Decay.

Imho today, Death and Taxes is better then in the last months (particularly) and now is a bad matchup for us (in my experience, obv).

The very good solution vs Death and Taxes imho is Rough / Tumble, but we can't play it because destroy Deathrite and Nemesis. I search for a sweeper like Rough with a non expansive CC, that i can use in 2/3 matchup, not only for Death and Taxes, because I don't like to reserve lots in sideboard for cards dedicated at only one archetype...

I like to play, in my 15, versatile cards for 2/3 matchup each.





14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

27 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod



Very solid list, as always, mate.
We play the same creatures but, currently, i play 4 Tarmo.
I want to test 3 Tarmo + 1 Gurmag this days, because Gurmag ignore Abrupt Decay.

Next week i have a tournament in my Country, and all this days became test for:

- 3 Stifle (yes / no)
- 4 Tarmo / 3 Tarmo + 1 Gurmag
- best sideboard card to beat Eldrazi, Shardless and Taxes

:smile:

Thoughts?

[crush]

It's not like I do not like Stifles, all the contrary, it is my favorite spell.. but with this deck I kinda want to be more proactive and Stifle has not proven itself since I cut our dear old Mongeese.
I am trying a build with less creatures and Stifles, but this threat dense version is most probably better.

As for the DnT matchup, I usually keep some number of FoWs in for their removal and try to race them. Prioritize saving DRS and killing MoMs and Vials on sight.

2 Golgari Charms in the board are quite a blessing.

Edit: sideboard vs DnT, Shadeless and Eldrazi = Winter Orb. I will definitely play 2 Orbs in the SB instead of the P.Thruths.

[jarvisyu]

Lost in the finals of the Black Lotus event at Squabbles (Baltimore, MD), playing the exact same 75.

r1: 2-1 win over miracles
r2: 2-1 win over (??????)
r3: 2-0 win over grixis thought scour angler delver (friedman also invented this version, afaict)
r4: 2-1 win over white (splash FTK) eldrazi taxes
r5: 2-0 win over 4 color loam

r6-7 draw

r1 of t8, split with ben friedman (73 card mirror, and he left)
r2 of t8, 2-0 win over burn
r3 of t8, 1-2 loss to 4 color loam

Deck still feels incredibly well-positioned (I switched to this deck to begin with because Maryland is notorious for hating on Lands, given the Green-Red version was invented here).

[crush]

Lost in the finals of the Black Lotus event at Squabbles (Baltimore, MD), playing the exact same 75.

r1: 2-1 win over miracles
r2: 2-1 win over (??????)
r3: 2-0 win over grixis thought scour angler delver (friedman also invented this version, afaict)
r4: 2-1 win over white (splash FTK) eldrazi taxes
r5: 2-0 win over 4 color loam

r6-7 draw

r1 of t8, split with ben friedman (73 card mirror, and he left)
r2 of t8, 2-0 win over burn
r3 of t8, 1-2 loss to 4 color loam

Deck still feels incredibly well-positioned (I switched to this deck to begin with because Maryland is notorious for hating on Lands, given the Green-Red version was invented here).

Congratulations,

How efective has been SCM for you? How do you usually use him - e.g. do you cycle a brainstorm in the gy at the first oportunity or do you hold until really needed?
Personally I seldom cast him, since I am usually stuck on 3 mana and with a limited gy. They are usually dead till really late in the game, but even then they failed to overperform (i.e. bring me back when I was behind).

[jarvisyu]

Congratulations,

How efective has been SCM for you? How do you usually use him - e.g. do you cycle a brainstorm in the gy at the first oportunity or do you hold until really needed?
Personally I seldom cast him, since I am usually stuck on 3 mana and with a limited gy. They are usually dead till really late in the game, but even then they failed to overperform (i.e. bring me back when I was behind).

Depends on the matchup. in a racing matchup, i'm very willing to just go upstairs with bolt, and use snapcaster to flashback it.

in attrition matchups, i'll very often just snapcaster ponder early on.

[jarvisyu]

Depends on the matchup. in a racing matchup, i'm very willing to just go upstairs with bolt, and use snapcaster to flashback it.

in attrition matchups, i'll very often just snapcaster ponder early on.

re: this, I believe Snapcaster Mage is excellent.

[Jaytron]

I liked SCM too. It was expensive, but being able to increase my clock with SCM Bolt, or dig for answers with SCM BS/Ponder felt ok. It just felt very mana intensive.

Jarvis, did the SCMs/TNNs ever get boarded out for you?

[jarvisyu]

I liked SCM too. It was expensive, but being able to increase my clock with SCM Bolt, or dig for answers with SCM BS/Ponder felt ok. It just felt very mana intensive.

Jarvis, did the SCMs/TNNs ever get boarded out for you?

could see boarding out TNN vs combo, but I don't think I'd board out Snapcaster (at least no more than 1).

[Jaytron]

could see boarding out TNN vs combo, but I don't think I'd board out Snapcaster (at least no more than 1).

Interesting, I was boarding out Gurmags vs combo typically (habit from Grixis) but I guess TNN is sometimes slower to come down, so I can see taking that out instead.

Most of my trouble was flipping delvers post board when I brought in Needles+Jitte and boarded out spells

Do you bring in more than 1 surgical vs combo decks, like say Show and Tell? I had one SnT pilo ask why I didn't board all of mine in. I only brought in 1 for the lulz really.

[Parcher]

Lost in the finals of the Black Lotus event at Squabbles (Baltimore, MD), playing the exact same 75.

r1: 2-1 win over miracles
r2: 2-1 win over (??????)
r3: 2-0 win over grixis thought scour angler delver (friedman also invented this version, afaict)
r4: 2-1 win over white (splash FTK) eldrazi taxes
r5: 2-0 win over 4 color loam

r6-7 draw

r1 of t8, split with ben friedman (73 card mirror, and he left)
r2 of t8, 2-0 win over burn
r3 of t8, 1-2 loss to 4 color loam

Deck still feels incredibly well-positioned (I switched to this deck to begin with because Maryland is notorious for hating on Lands, given the Green-Red version was invented here).

Congrats on the finish! Did Jeremy, or the older guy with the buzzcut and glasses win? If the former, give him my congrats. He was my one well-deserved loss.

[jarvisyu]

Congrats on the finish! Did Jeremy, or the older guy with the buzzcut and glasses win? If the former, give him my congrats. He was my one well-deserved loss.

buzzcut and glasses dude named Ian.

[Hrothgar]

@ Jarvisyu: Congrats for this great result! Great!

I'm curious to know...
In this matchup:

"r4: 2-1 win over white (splash FTK) eldrazi taxes"

How to set up the game?
I want to defend my delver in first turns, beat with it and close the game with Nemesis.
This is my strategy for now.

What are the card in which you focused with your removal?
I normally reserve:

- Abrupt for Chalice of the Void and Umezawa's Jitte
- Sometimes Daze on Mimic, only if I have not Bolt
- Bolt for Mimic in response to other creature (like Smasher or greatest)

What problems You've had in this set?
Any advice to improve?

:laugh:

[jarvisyu]

@ Jarvisyu: Congrats for this great result! Great!

I'm curious to know...
In this matchup:

"r4: 2-1 win over white (splash FTK) eldrazi taxes"

How to set up the game?
I want to defend my delver in first turns, beat with it and close the game with Nemesis.
This is my strategy for now.

What are the card in which you focused with your removal?
I normally reserve:

- Abrupt for Chalice of the Void and Umezawa's Jitte
- Sometimes Daze on Mimic, only if I have not Bolt
- Bolt for Mimic in response to other creature (like Smasher or greatest)

What problems You've had in this set?
Any advice to improve?

:laugh:

It feels like a pretty bad matchup, but here's what I've noticed.

You basically need to be the aggressor, otherwise you'll be buried by an unending number of giant creatures (Seer/Smasher, even Thalia 1.0 / 2.0 tag team to be a real nuisance).

I try not to aggressively cast Force, but I think this is a matchup where it's acceptable to do so, given how your cards line up. Cavern of Souls also blanks a lot of your counters, so using them earlier rather than later helps a lot.

I got VERY fortunate to win this match, although TNN is an all-star here.

[Hrothgar]

It feels like a pretty bad matchup, but here's what I've noticed.

You basically need to be the aggressor, otherwise you'll be buried by an unending number of giant creatures (Seer/Smasher, even Thalia 1.0 / 2.0 tag team to be a real nuisance).

I try not to aggressively cast Force, but I think this is a matchup where it's acceptable to do so, given how your cards line up. Cavern of Souls also blanks a lot of your counters, so using them earlier rather than later helps a lot.

I got VERY fortunate to win this match, although TNN is an all-star here.

Hi Jarvis, thanks to reply!
I agree with you about the aggressively use of counter in this matchup.
Cavern of Souls is a totally broken card for our counter, and this make many of our resource useless.
Obv Wasteland can stop Cavern but Eldrazi matchup need a lot of land control (Sol lands give it a lot of time and an exit way by our Daze).
Many time, counter just a blocker like Reshaper give to our creature the way to bring our opponent at Nemesi's finish range.

Obv is a bad matchup, but here we are better than other Delver.deck maybe (better than UR and RUG for sure, better than Team America I don't Know, because 4x Abrupt and 2 Liliana are very good).

[eldub]

Has anyone played with additional Ghost Quarters in the SB as a way to get more than 4 copies of Wasteland/Land Destruction for the relevant matchups? I'm specifically thinking about Eldrazi, 12 Post, and the Delver Mirrors. AFAIK none of these run basics and GC should just be Wasteland 5 & 6.

[KobeBryan]

Has anyone played with additional Ghost Quarters in the SB as a way to get more than 4 copies of Wasteland/Land Destruction for the relevant matchups? I'm specifically thinking about Eldrazi, 12 Post, and the Delver Mirrors. AFAIK none of these run basics and GC should just be Wasteland 5 & 6.

No. Because its a lousy draw and you waste a land drop.

I would play however, sinkhole.

[Hrothgar]

Imho 4c no needs another Waste effect.
The only very bad land who destroy our plan is Cavern of Souls.
If you need control other delver.deck add Stifle, that you can use in some other matchup (Miracle, Shardless).

Eldrazi and 12 post are weak to Price of Progress, if your meta is full of this deck play 2 PoP in side and win all the game with fast Delver, Deathrite :b: ability, True Name (if you play her) and burn style: bolt in face and Price :laugh:

In 4c we don't wants bad draw.

[Stevestamopz]

Imho 4c no needs another Waste effect.
The only very bad land who destroy our plan is Cavern of Souls.
If you need control other delver.deck add Stifle, that you can use in some other matchup (Miracle, Shardless).

Eldrazi and 12 post are weak to Price of Progress, if your meta is full of this deck play 2 PoP in side and win all the game with fast Delver, Deathrite :b: ability, True Name (if you play her) and burn style: bolt in face and Price :laugh:

In 4c we don't wants bad draw.


No. Because its a lousy draw and you waste a land drop.

I would play however, sinkhole.

How do we feel about a Life from the Loam in the sb? I have had one in my sideboard for two tournaments now but have failed to draw it to be able to test it.

I might add that it's not just there to buyback wastelands, it's also to buyback my own lands + fuel lavamancer against DnT.

[btm10]

I like Ghost Quarter more with a Delver deck. You just want more free Stone Rains rather than a grinding tool. Note that Ghost Quarter is often better than Wasteland against something like Shardless where they don't have"extra" basics. As for Loam, I don't think this is the right meta for it in Delver decks. Land recursion is basically just for grinding, and the long game decks are currently set up to have way more late game power than any Delver deck: Stage/Depths every turn, Planeswalkers, Entreat, Mentor, Ancestral Vision, Punishing Fire, Batterskull, and so on. Additional counters, or burn, or hard to remove threats like TNN and Sulfuric Vortex are good options against grindy decks. I really dislike trying to out grind something like Loam, Miracles, or Shardless, since doing so is just playing their game rather than yours. And if you have to Loam back Duals against D&T, you've already lost.

[Hrothgar]

I see Life From the Loam in differente 4c sideboarding.
Blais's 4c (4th @ Ovino side event past week) play 1x Loam.
Imho Loam is a great card who, sometimes, can win alone the game.
Is strong but for now I don't find free slot in 15's for her.

By the way, Loam have some good interaction with:

- Deathrite Shaman
- Tarmogoyf
- Gurmag Angler
- Grim Lavamancer
- Wasteland
- Ancient Grudge lol


About Ghost Quarter: i like this 5x Waste in a deck who focus our game on denial, with 4x Stifle. Max 3 colors.
I don't like her in a 4c because we need specific mana for playing, and because we don't focus our game on Denial like RUG.
Just one Stifle change our gameplan.
Is not a casualty who 3xStifle in our deck are 3 meta-slot, like the 2nd Nemesis, the mono-Vendilion.

[Qweerios]

Don't forget Brainstorm as the main great interaction alongside WasteLoam...

[Hrothgar]

Don't forget Brainstorm as the main great interaction alongside WasteLoam...

Sure! Brainstorm before Dredge work very well.
My list include only the card with a directly interation with yard.
Thanks for advice!

[theMonster]

I played a 66-man local yesterday and went 5-2, good for 10th and a beat-up Taiga. Here was my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Izzet Charm
1 Kolaghan’s Command

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Arc Trail
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Go for the Throat
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

It felt super powerful, and there's a lot of room for customization based on what kind of meta you expect. Here's a little tournament report with my sideboarding decisions. Hopefully more experienced Delver pilots can tell me if they'd board differently.

Round 1: Jund

Game 1 was a typical Delver game where I stuck an early threat and disrupted my opponent. TNN did work. I always had a creature for Liliana protection.
Game 2 I was stuck on Lands and started with a lackluster mull to 6. I got beat down and couldn't catch up.
Game 3 I kept an unexciting 6, leaning on the power of Brainstorm. A Bloodbraif Elf whiffed (thankfully), but I couldn't find action for a few turns and got slapped around. I was able to Spell Pierce his Choke, which saved me. Then I topdecked Angler and stabilized. Snapcaster on Go for the Throat took care of the Bloodbraid, and Arc Trail on his Bob and face prevented him from finding more gas, and I pulled out a win.

Out: -4 Force of Will, -1 Daze
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Arc Trail

I didn't bring in Jitte 'cuz I figured he ran four Decays and a Maelstrom Pulse, but maybe I should still run it.

1-0

Round 2: Burn

Game 1 an early Goblin Guide got me some lands and chipped away, but eventually TNN, Delver, and Angler joined the party.
Game 2 my Delver died early, and I couldn't find more threats. He showed me Blood Moon, to boot.
Game 3 was close. I had to Wasteland my own Underground Sea to stop a lethal Price of Progress. He had one card in hand and three Mountains, and upon resolution I was at 4. Since he let me untap, I figured he didn't have Fireblast. So with a Sea and a Volcanic available, I had to decide whether to leave up Izzet Charm to counter something scary or play my Angler to put a clock on him; I opted for the latter and lost to a topdecked Fireblast. (The other card was Blood Moon.) What would you do there?

Out: -2 Wasteland, -1 Kolaghan's Command, -1 Snapcaster Mage
In: +1 Hydroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

1-1

Round 3: Infect

In hindsight I think I butchered this match. I probably had all the tools to win but didn't use my resources effectively.
Game 1 I landed an early Deathrite and dispatched some of his early threats. He had a double Hierarch opener and was able to poke in for three poison at some point. Then with two cards in hand, he played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - I've never seen that in Infect lists, is this new tech? I Counterspelled it, but he followed up with a Blighted Agent. I untapped with Deathrite and an Angler, two fetches, a Sea, and a Volcanic and Brainstormed into a Ponder. I fetched and Pondered, finding Delver/Ponder/land. With him at 8, I decided to put lethal on board and make him topdeck a pump spell as opposed to Pondering again for removal - stupid move. He ripped an Invigorate.
Game 2 I K-Commanded an Inkmoth and forced my opponent to use a second Invigorate on the targeted Glistner Elf. We traded resources for a while, and I drew Arc Trail to accompany my Spell Pierce. He had I think two Trops, a Noble Hierarch, and two cards in hand. Greedily I held onto the Arc Trail, hoping to get more value from it if he played another threat. He untapped, Probed me, then Become Immensed. I Pierced it, and he Forced back, and that was it. Learned my lesson there: when in doubt, kill all the things.

Out: -3 Daze, -1 Force of Will
In: +1 Arc Trail, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Pithing Needle

My sideboarding was probably terrible, as I don't have a ton of experience in this matchup. Please help!

1-2

With my back against the wall, I figured I couldn't make top8 but could possibly squeak into 10th if I won out.

Round 4: RG Lands

Game 1 I landed an early Deathrite and TNN. A clock plus disruption sealed the deal.
Game 2 he had natural combo in hand, rendering useless my Surgical Extraction in hand. I drew Pithing Needle on turn 3, but he had two Stages. So I figured he would copy something in response, making me unable to name the card he copied because there would still be a card named Thespian's Stage active. I chumped with a flipped Delver and then died.
Game 3 was a slog. I had a double Deathrite hand and Hydroblasted an early Vortex. He couldn't Loam profitably, as I would just exile all the business. Eventually he Wasteland-ed all my Underground Seas, making it so that I had to use the second Deathrite to produce black to pay for the other one's activation. Two Maze of Iths shut down my Snapcaster and Delver. I countered basically anything he played except Loam. I was lucky that he didn't find another Punishing Fire for a bunch of turns, but he had to naturally draw for a while out of fear of my Deathrites. Poking away for 2, then Wastelanding a Maze got me the win. Great games.

Out: -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Daze
In: +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge

Maybe I should've boarded out K-Command, but I thought being able to get back a Deathrite could be valuable.

2-2

Round 5: Stoneforge Miracles

This was a successful local player who said to me before the match, "Delver, huh? I've been wanting to play Delver matchups all day!" I responded, "Well, you got your wish."
Game 1 I Bolted his Stoneforge, which fetched up Batterskull. I then drew K-Command and figured the game would go well for me. I landed a TNN, he responded with a Counterbalance. It blind flipped a Swords when I tried to Spell Pierce a Brainstorm in response to my Ponder. A couple turns went by, and he landed Jace, good for a four-mana Brainstorm. He then hard-cast Batterskull. I cast K-Command end of turn, which he Forced because Counterbalance revealed a land. Then I untapped, played Snapcaster on K-Command, and he scooped.
Game 2 was a similar affair. An early TNN found a Jitte and smashed for a whole lot. I won the game with five cards in hand.

Out: -3 Daze, -1 Force of Will
In: +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

Maybe I should've taken out an Angler or two 'cuz it's terrible against Swords and Jace's -1 and played, say, a Flusterstorm instead. I saw Karakas in game 1, so I thought he might be playing Wizards and left in my Wastelands. I don't know if Jitte is right or not, but I remember someone saying that they brought it in against Miracles. And since he seemed to be playing more creatures, I thought it couldn't hurt. Might be wrong, though.

3-2

Round 6: Storm

I got paired up against a 10-pointer, who asked me if I'd concede to allow him to draw into the top8. I declined, seeing as I thought I had a shot to win a prize.
Game 1 I landed an early Delver, and he cantripped a bunch, trying to find more lands after I Wastelanded his second Trop. He eventually found a Sea and cast Dark Ritual, which I Pierced. I had Bolt, Snapcaster, Deathrite, and Angler in hand with three lands in play. He Duressed me, and I opted not to Bolt in response so as to leave open Snap+Pierce. With lethal in hand, my opponent cast Infernal Tutor with a full grip. I didn't think he could find anything to go off, so I let it resolve. He searched for an LED, cast it, then passed. I Snap+Bolted and attacked for lethal.
Game 2 my opponent Duressed my Force in my six-card hand, leaving me with a Ponder, Counterspell, and three lands. I Pondered, shuffled, and drew something inconsequential. Then my opponent tried to go off but Infernal Tutored with four mana floating, leaving him unable to Past in Flames+Rituals. He could've still PiFed and flashed back a Probe, hoping to find a black source; instead, he cast Tendrils for 14. I played my second land, leaving up Counterspell. Then I Brainstormed into Surgical, which I cast on Tendrils to earn a concession.

Out: -2 Lightning Bolt, -1 Kolaghan's Command, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 True-Name Nemesis, -1 Gurmag Angler
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Marsh Casualties

I brought in Casualties in case he played Empty the Warrens and left in two Bolts for the clock with Snapcaster.

4-2

Standings had me in 18th with a glut of 12-pointers, so I thought I had no shot to make 10th. But I played it out anyway.

Round 7: Aluren

Game 1 I think my early Deathrite died, but a TNN soon joined the party. I was luckily able to counter Aluren and get a Delver to stick. I revealed a Bolt when he was at 9, and he scooped.
Game 2 his T1 Carpet of Flowers made my Spell Pierce awkward. I couldn't get enough of a clock to prevent the combo.
Game 3 I landed an early Delver and Arc Trailed his Strix and his face. Snapcaster in hand forced my opponent into a tough Thoughtseize, as I had both Bolt and Izzet Charm. Eventually he tried to Deluge away my Delver, but I cast Izzet Charm, and he conceded.

Out: -2 Daze, -1 Force of Will, -1 Gurmag Angler
In: +1 Arc Trail, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

This is almost certainly wrong. I figured the only thing I had to fight over was Aluren and maybe Deluge, so I shaved on countermagic in favor of spot removal. Arc Trail isn't instant speed, and Jitte is probably too slow. Probably should've left in the countermagic and just brought in one Go for the Throat.

So at 5-2 I squeaked into the money and felt pretty good about the deck. Had I played better in round 3, I might've been able to top8 (though my matchups would've been different, and perhaps I would've missed). Some thoughts about the list:

- Snapcaster and TNN were the all-stars yesterday.
- My mana was great. I rarely struggled to make land drops and had access to my colors when I needed them. A part of me is considering a Taiga in place of the second Trop, but that would make cards like Counterspell and Daze worse. Haven't tested, so I'm unsure. Three Wastelands felt like enough to do what I needed to do with them, too.
- The Counterspell was nice in place of the fourth Daze. Since my curve is higher, I wanted to Daze less often. Counterspell is a way better topdeck, though the :u::u: cost is real.
- The room was particularly fair, so K-Command did some good things. Instant-speed discard later in the game is sweet, and the 2-for-1s can be insane. In conjunction with Snapcaster, you can grind well.
- Izzet Charm was amazing, too. I killed creatures and Spell Pierced and could've used it in certain dire situations when I needed to see more cards. Definitely sleeving it up again.
- The sideboard is what I'm most uncertain about. Hydroblast was to help me against Blood Moon, Lands, and Burn, but it didn't feel essential. Marsh Casualties could've been a different sweeper like Fire Covenant, though I liked the cheap cost. Since DnT apparently boards out a fair number of their 1-toughness guys against black decks, maybe I should consider a different card than Casualties. And Arc Trail did some nice things and could've been great against DnT. The sorcery speed is a huge liability, though. I might go back to Darkblast instead, but it's close. And I didn't think I needed a card like Painful Truths because I had the Snapcaster plan. A part of me considered Night's Whisper because it's easier to flashback with Snapcaster. Definitely open to suggestions on the board.

Let me know how you would've played those turns in question and if you would've sideboarded differently. The idea of a Delver deck with only three Dazes and three Wastelands is probably anathema to lots of you, so I'd like to hear if you'd build the deck differently and any critiques of the list overall. I think the deck is strong and will be playing it some more.

Thanks for reading!

[Manipulato]

I played a 66-man local yesterday and went 5-2, good for 10th and a beat-up Taiga. Here was my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Izzet Charm
1 Kolaghan’s Command

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Arc Trail
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Go for the Throat
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

It felt super powerful, and there's a lot of room for customization based on what kind of meta you expect. Here's a little tournament report with my sideboarding decisions. Hopefully more experienced Delver pilots can tell me if they'd board differently.

Round 1: Jund

Game 1 was a typical Delver game where I stuck an early threat and disrupted my opponent. TNN did work. I always had a creature for Liliana protection.
Game 2 I was stuck on Lands and started with a lackluster mull to 6. I got beat down and couldn't catch up.
Game 3 I kept an unexciting 6, leaning on the power of Brainstorm. A Bloodbraif Elf whiffed (thankfully), but I couldn't find action for a few turns and got slapped around. I was able to Spell Pierce his Choke, which saved me. Then I topdecked Angler and stabilized. Snapcaster on Go for the Throat took care of the Bloodbraid, and Arc Trail on his Bob and face prevented him from finding more gas, and I pulled out a win.

Out: -4 Force of Will, -1 Daze
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Arc Trail

I didn't bring in Jitte 'cuz I figured he ran four Decays and a Maelstrom Pulse, but maybe I should still run it.

1-0

Round 2: Burn

Game 1 an early Goblin Guide got me some lands and chipped away, but eventually TNN, Delver, and Angler joined the party.
Game 2 my Delver died early, and I couldn't find more threats. He showed me Blood Moon, to boot.
Game 3 was close. I had to Wasteland my own Underground Sea to stop a lethal Price of Progress. He had one card in hand and three Mountains, and upon resolution I was at 4. Since he let me untap, I figured he didn't have Fireblast. So with a Sea and a Volcanic available, I had to decide whether to leave up Izzet Charm to counter something scary or play my Angler to put a clock on him; I opted for the latter and lost to a topdecked Fireblast. (The other card was Blood Moon.) What would you do there?

Out: -2 Wasteland, -1 Kolaghan's Command, -1 Snapcaster Mage
In: +1 Hydroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

1-1

Round 3: Infect

In hindsight I think I butchered this match. I probably had all the tools to win but didn't use my resources effectively.
Game 1 I landed an early Deathrite and dispatched some of his early threats. He had a double Hierarch opener and was able to poke in for three poison at some point. Then with two cards in hand, he played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - I've never seen that in Infect lists, is this new tech? I Counterspelled it, but he followed up with a Blighted Agent. I untapped with Deathrite and an Angler, two fetches, a Sea, and a Volcanic and Brainstormed into a Ponder. I fetched and Pondered, finding Delver/Ponder/land. With him at 8, I decided to put lethal on board and make him topdeck a pump spell as opposed to Pondering again for removal - stupid move. He ripped an Invigorate.
Game 2 I K-Commanded an Inkmoth and forced my opponent to use a second Invigorate on the targeted Glistner Elf. We traded resources for a while, and I drew Arc Trail to accompany my Spell Pierce. He had I think two Trops, a Noble Hierarch, and two cards in hand. Greedily I held onto the Arc Trail, hoping to get more value from it if he played another threat. He untapped, Probed me, then Become Immensed. I Pierced it, and he Forced back, and that was it. Learned my lesson there: when in doubt, kill all the things.

Out: -3 Daze, -1 Force of Will
In: +1 Arc Trail, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Pithing Needle

My sideboarding was probably terrible, as I don't have a ton of experience in this matchup. Please help!

1-2

With my back against the wall, I figured I couldn't make top8 but could possibly squeak into 10th if I won out.

Round 4: RG Lands

Game 1 I landed an early Deathrite and TNN. A clock plus disruption sealed the deal.
Game 2 he had natural combo in hand, rendering useless my Surgical Extraction in hand. I drew Pithing Needle on turn 3, but he had two Stages. So I figured he would copy something in response, making me unable to name the card he copied because there would still be a card named Thespian's Stage active. I chumped with a flipped Delver and then died.
Game 3 was a slog. I had a double Deathrite hand and Hydroblasted an early Vortex. He couldn't Loam profitably, as I would just exile all the business. Eventually he Wasteland-ed all my Underground Seas, making it so that I had to use the second Deathrite to produce black to pay for the other one's activation. Two Maze of Iths shut down my Snapcaster and Delver. I countered basically anything he played except Loam. I was lucky that he didn't find another Punishing Fire for a bunch of turns, but he had to naturally draw for a while out of fear of my Deathrites. Poking away for 2, then Wastelanding a Maze got me the win. Great games.

Out: -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Daze
In: +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge

Maybe I should've boarded out K-Command, but I thought being able to get back a Deathrite could be valuable.

2-2

Round 5: Stoneforge Miracles

This was a successful local player who said to me before the match, "Delver, huh? I've been wanting to play Delver matchups all day!" I responded, "Well, you got your wish."
Game 1 I Bolted his Stoneforge, which fetched up Batterskull. I then drew K-Command and figured the game would go well for me. I landed a TNN, he responded with a Counterbalance. It blind flipped a Swords when I tried to Spell Pierce a Brainstorm in response to my Ponder. A couple turns went by, and he landed Jace, good for a four-mana Brainstorm. He then hard-cast Batterskull. I cast K-Command end of turn, which he Forced because Counterbalance revealed a land. Then I untapped, played Snapcaster on K-Command, and he scooped.
Game 2 was a similar affair. An early TNN found a Jitte and smashed for a whole lot. I won the game with five cards in hand.

Out: -3 Daze, -1 Force of Will
In: +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

Maybe I should've taken out an Angler or two 'cuz it's terrible against Swords and Jace's -1 and played, say, a Flusterstorm instead. I saw Karakas in game 1, so I thought he might be playing Wizards and left in my Wastelands. I don't know if Jitte is right or not, but I remember someone saying that they brought it in against Miracles. And since he seemed to be playing more creatures, I thought it couldn't hurt. Might be wrong, though.

3-2

Round 6: Storm

I got paired up against a 10-pointer, who asked me if I'd concede to allow him to draw into the top8. I declined, seeing as I thought I had a shot to win a prize.
Game 1 I landed an early Delver, and he cantripped a bunch, trying to find more lands after I Wastelanded his second Trop. He eventually found a Sea and cast Dark Ritual, which I Pierced. I had Bolt, Snapcaster, Deathrite, and Angler in hand with three lands in play. He Duressed me, and I opted not to Bolt in response so as to leave open Snap+Pierce. With lethal in hand, my opponent cast Infernal Tutor with a full grip. I didn't think he could find anything to go off, so I let it resolve. He searched for an LED, cast it, then passed. I Snap+Bolted and attacked for lethal.
Game 2 my opponent Duressed my Force in my six-card hand, leaving me with a Ponder, Counterspell, and three lands. I Pondered, shuffled, and drew something inconsequential. Then my opponent tried to go off but Infernal Tutored with four mana floating, leaving him unable to Past in Flames+Rituals. He could've still PiFed and flashed back a Probe, hoping to find a black source; instead, he cast Tendrils for 14. I played my second land, leaving up Counterspell. Then I Brainstormed into Surgical, which I cast on Tendrils to earn a concession.

Out: -2 Lightning Bolt, -1 Kolaghan's Command, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 True-Name Nemesis, -1 Gurmag Angler
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Marsh Casualties

I brought in Casualties in case he played Empty the Warrens and left in two Bolts for the clock with Snapcaster.

4-2

Standings had me in 18th with a glut of 12-pointers, so I thought I had no shot to make 10th. But I played it out anyway.

Round 7: Aluren

Game 1 I think my early Deathrite died, but a TNN soon joined the party. I was luckily able to counter Aluren and get a Delver to stick. I revealed a Bolt when he was at 9, and he scooped.
Game 2 his T1 Carpet of Flowers made my Spell Pierce awkward. I couldn't get enough of a clock to prevent the combo.
Game 3 I landed an early Delver and Arc Trailed his Strix and his face. Snapcaster in hand forced my opponent into a tough Thoughtseize, as I had both Bolt and Izzet Charm. Eventually he tried to Deluge away my Delver, but I cast Izzet Charm, and he conceded.

Out: -2 Daze, -1 Force of Will, -1 Gurmag Angler
In: +1 Arc Trail, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

This is almost certainly wrong. I figured the only thing I had to fight over was Aluren and maybe Deluge, so I shaved on countermagic in favor of spot removal. Arc Trail isn't instant speed, and Jitte is probably too slow. Probably should've left in the countermagic and just brought in one Go for the Throat.

So at 5-2 I squeaked into the money and felt pretty good about the deck. Had I played better in round 3, I might've been able to top8 (though my matchups would've been different, and perhaps I would've missed). Some thoughts about the list:

- Snapcaster and TNN were the all-stars yesterday.
- My mana was great. I rarely struggled to make land drops and had access to my colors when I needed them. A part of me is considering a Taiga in place of the second Trop, but that would make cards like Counterspell and Daze worse. Haven't tested, so I'm unsure. Three Wastelands felt like enough to do what I needed to do with them, too.
- The Counterspell was nice in place of the fourth Daze. Since my curve is higher, I wanted to Daze less often. Counterspell is a way better topdeck, though the :u::u: cost is real.
- The room was particularly fair, so K-Command did some good things. Instant-speed discard later in the game is sweet, and the 2-for-1s can be insane. In conjunction with Snapcaster, you can grind well.
- Izzet Charm was amazing, too. I killed creatures and Spell Pierced and could've used it in certain dire situations when I needed to see more cards. Definitely sleeving it up again.
- The sideboard is what I'm most uncertain about. Hydroblast was to help me against Blood Moon, Lands, and Burn, but it didn't feel essential. Marsh Casualties could've been a different sweeper like Fire Covenant, though I liked the cheap cost. Since DnT apparently boards out a fair number of their 1-toughness guys against black decks, maybe I should consider a different card than Casualties. And Arc Trail did some nice things and could've been great against DnT. The sorcery speed is a huge liability, though. I might go back to Darkblast instead, but it's close. And I didn't think I needed a card like Painful Truths because I had the Snapcaster plan. A part of me considered Night's Whisper because it's easier to flashback with Snapcaster. Definitely open to suggestions on the board.

Let me know how you would've played those turns in question and if you would've sideboarded differently. The idea of a Delver deck with only three Dazes and three Wastelands is probably anathema to lots of you, so I'd like to hear if you'd build the deck differently and any critiques of the list overall. I think the deck is strong and will be playing it some more.

Thanks for reading!

Hi,
gratz to your solid finish. A really freaky list with the 1off Izzet Charm/Counterspell/Kolaghans Command you played :wink:

Currently I´m also moving to a more "midrangey/controlish" list with 2 TNN/2 SCM & 3 TS.

One question, how happy were you with your 2 Spell Pierces in the MD? I played 2-3 Pierces in the main over the last 1 year or something and I am still not super happy about them and felt that it is the most weak card in the main. I boarded them out alot. I only needed them for the combo & burn MU´s but thats it. Plus combo is not that present atm...
That´s the reason I try 3 Thoughtseize in place of 3 Spell Pierce right now because they´re better vs DnT, Elves and Eldrazi for example and also good vs combo if I face one.
I played a 4c Delver list without Goyfs and 3 TS at GP Lille last year (Goddick DTT build) and found the TS ok.

Whats your opinion/experience on that?

[Stevestamopz]

Top 8'd a tournament yesterday with this list. I don't know that it's a tempo deck much anymore (:frown:) but I very much enjoy playing it.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Rd1: 2-1 Shardless BUG
Rd2: 2-0 ANT
Rd3: 0-2 Death and Taxes
Rd4: 2-1 Reanimator
Rd5: ID Grixis Delver
Top 8: 1-2 Manaless Dredge.

Any advice on how to beat DnT? My opponent was playing my DnT deck that I loaned out to him, and I certainly was never worried about a Delver deck when I played DnT. Game 1 I had 0 lands and a revokered DRS by turn 3, and game 2 started off with a DRS -> Goyf -> TNN -> 2x Lightning Bolt and I still got absolutely slaughtered.

I guess my list is not very original, but Counterspell was excellent as were Snare and Snapcaster, but that could be more a meta thing: we're in combo hell at the moment.

[Qweerios]

Top 8'd a tournament yesterday with this list. I don't know that it's a tempo deck much anymore (:frown:) but I very much enjoy playing it.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Rd1: 2-1 Shardless BUG
Rd2: 2-0 ANT
Rd3: 0-2 Death and Taxes
Rd4: 2-1 Reanimator
Rd5: ID Grixis Delver
Top 8: 1-2 Manaless Dredge.

Any advice on how to beat DnT? My opponent was playing my DnT deck that I loaned out to him, and I certainly was never worried about a Delver deck when I played DnT. Game 1 I had 0 lands and a revokered DRS by turn 3, and game 2 started off with a DRS -> Goyf -> TNN -> 2x Lightning Bolt and I still got absolutely slaughtered.

I guess my list is not very original, but Counterspell was excellent as were Snare and Snapcaster, but that could be more a meta thing: we're in combo hell at the moment.

Get a second piece of hate against DnT? I like Sulphur Elemental more than Dread of Night, at least it's good against Miracles. Also, Darkblast just as narrow but much weaker.

[theMonster]

Hi,
gratz to your solid finish. A really freaky list with the 1off Izzet Charm/Counterspell/Kolaghans Command you played :wink:

Currently I´m also moving to a more "midrangey/controlish" list with 2 TNN/2 SCM & 3 TS.

One question, how happy were you with your 2 Spell Pierces in the MD? I played 2-3 Pierces in the main over the last 1 year or something and I am still not super happy about them and felt that it is the most weak card in the main. I boarded them out alot. I only needed them for the combo & burn MU´s but thats it. Plus combo is not that present atm...
That´s the reason I try 3 Thoughtseize in place of 3 Spell Pierce right now because they´re better vs DnT, Elves and Eldrazi for example and also good vs combo if I face one.
I played a 4c Delver list without Goyfs and 3 TS at GP Lille last year (Goddick DTT build) and found the TS ok.

Whats your opinion/experience on that?

Thanks, Manipulato! I think 1-ofs in a cantrips + Snapcaster deck make sense because you see a lot of cards and can find the answer you need. Regarding the 1-ofs you mentioned, Counterspell has been the strongest. It's great against Miracles and often an excellent topdeck. Paired with Snapcaster, it can buy you the tempo you need. Kolaghan's Command goes from being insane against DnT/Batterskull strategies, Chalice decks, and Shardless BUG to a do-nothing card in some matchups, so it's more of a metagame call. :1::b::r: is greedy, but when K-Command is good, it's great! Izzet Charm is the one I'm on the fence about. I've used all three modes to fine effect, and it's a blue card to pitch to Force of Will. But it's inefficient, especially leaving up :u::r: for the Spell Pierce effect. I'm leaving it for now, but I'm considering the following replacements:

- Abrupt Decay #3
- Daze #4
- Spell Snare
- Hymn to Tourach

As for Spell Pierce, I've found them to be solid but not spectacular. They're really good when people play around Daze but don't suspect Pierce, and often people aren't in a position to play around Pierce at all. Countering removal on your threats is big game, and it's something that Thoughtseize can't do. It's also nice to have more answers to early haymakers like Chalice and Blood Moon. They also provide more tempo than Thoughtseize, as the opponent invests mana in the spell you answer. At the very least, Spell Pierce is blue. But Thoughtseize definitely belongs in the 75 for the reasons you mentioned, so I could see switching the main/side split depending on what you expect to face.

And I'm playing a Vendilion Clique in the sideboard now and love it. There are lots of matches where I want to take out Anglers and/or TNNs, so having a disruptive replacement threat feels great. I'm looking for a good creature sweeper and am unsure about Marsh Casualties. Fire Covenant and Toxic Deluge are also in the running for me, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's better off as a Diabolic Edict for lands and opposing TNNs, though. With Snapcasters, I can 1-for-1 a lot, so maybe a sweeper isn't necessary to catch up.

Thoughts?

[Manipulato]

Thanks, Manipulato! I think 1-ofs in a cantrips + Snapcaster deck make sense because you see a lot of cards and can find the answer you need. Regarding the 1-ofs you mentioned, Counterspell has been the strongest. It's great against Miracles and often an excellent topdeck. Paired with Snapcaster, it can buy you the tempo you need. Kolaghan's Command goes from being insane against DnT/Batterskull strategies, Chalice decks, and Shardless BUG to a do-nothing card in some matchups, so it's more of a metagame call. :1::b::r: is greedy, but when K-Command is good, it's great! Izzet Charm is the one I'm on the fence about. I've used all three modes to fine effect, and it's a blue card to pitch to Force of Will. But it's inefficient, especially leaving up :u::r: for the Spell Pierce effect. I'm leaving it for now, but I'm considering the following replacements:

- Abrupt Decay #3
- Daze #4
- Spell Snare
- Hymn to Tourach

As for Spell Pierce, I've found them to be solid but not spectacular. They're really good when people play around Daze but don't suspect Pierce, and often people aren't in a position to play around Pierce at all. Countering removal on your threats is big game, and it's something that Thoughtseize can't do. It's also nice to have more answers to early haymakers like Chalice and Blood Moon. They also provide more tempo than Thoughtseize, as the opponent invests mana in the spell you answer. At the very least, Spell Pierce is blue. But Thoughtseize definitely belongs in the 75 for the reasons you mentioned, so I could see switching the main/side split depending on what you expect to face.

And I'm playing a Vendilion Clique in the sideboard now and love it. There are lots of matches where I want to take out Anglers and/or TNNs, so having a disruptive replacement threat feels great. I'm looking for a good creature sweeper and am unsure about Marsh Casualties. Fire Covenant and Toxic Deluge are also in the running for me, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's better off as a Diabolic Edict for lands and opposing TNNs, though. With Snapcasters, I can 1-for-1 a lot, so maybe a sweeper isn't necessary to catch up.

Thoughts?

Hi, thx for your answer.
Sure countering removal on your creatures is good but it rarely happened outside of Delver mirrors because AD from the BGx decks cant be countered & white decks have instant removal for W and can play around it easily.

Another problem I recognized is that with the more expensive mana curve (TNN, SCM, Truths G2/3) it's super hard to hold Pierce mana open. You also can "counter" a removal spell when you play the TS first and then your beater, it's a loss of tempo like all discard spells for sure but more versatile and optimal especially in those more midrangey TNN/SCM builds. It also ups the Sorcery count for Goyf which I like. My blue count with 24 cards is still really solid. Now I'm playing 2 Flusterstorm in the SB to have a pierce effect when needed.

Countering a T1 Chalice from your oponent is very unlikely because a: Your on the draw and have no mana on the table or b: tapping out T1 for Delver, Shaman or Ponder. And even here TS would be able to discard the Chalice. I'm playing 3 AD MD which is a must in my opinion, so troublesome permanents like Chalice, Jitte, or Balance are managable even if they resolve.

Here's my current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Painful Truths
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge

But I'm currently not sold on a 2nd Needle & a 2nd Dismember, thinking about replacing those 2nd copies with 1 Null Rod & 1 Murderous Cut.

Greetings

[Qweerios]

Sure! Brainstorm before Dredge work very well.

My list include only the card with a directly interation with yard.

Thanks for advice!


Sure, Delving the top cards you didn't want to shuffle is fine but the real interaction between Loam and Brainstorm is getting back 3 fetches for 1 Loam, drawing 3 cards off Brainstorm and then landing a fetch and shuffle the other 2 in the deck. That is how Loam turns Brainstorm into Ancestral Recall.

[Qweerios]

@theMonster,





Jitte is good against Jund. You don't side out your creatures because they play removal right? Then you shouldn't prevent yourself from playing strong cards against them because they can deal with them.





FoW is better than Marsh Casualties against Infect. Countering the threat is much easier than trying to remove it through all their Rotations and Vines/pump spells.





Against Lands I would have kept Bolt over KCommand and Spell Pierce. Taxing counters are really bad except for T1 Exploration.





Against Storm, the only variant that realistically goes EtW is TES. Bolts are better than Decay and Casualties because 1 mana to remove Xantid Swarm is night and day. Bolt to the face is a bonus.





Aluren is a combo deck with value creatures. FoW is better than GftT here.





If I may comment on your list, I like it and I love it when people do well experimenting with cool cards. First, I think you shouldn't move away from your tempo shell by cutting the 4th Daze and 4th Wasteland. After all, you are a Delver deck with Waste, DRS, Angler, Bolts and FoW and your best plays will always depend on maximizing those cards because they are your best line of play. Going big on flex slots is a great way to mitigate your fragile lategame and easing on the color spread (TNN>Goyf, KCommand>Decay). I also think Izzet Charm is too janky for a legacy deck that can afford to play much more powerful cards. 3 Snaps might be 1 too many (for my taste). I would try to squeeze in 1 Dismember (or even Terminate) mainboard as it would complement your main tempo plan and give you another variety target for Snap that can handle Anglers and Eldrazis. I also believe you could benefit from 1 Jace in your SB. I also believe you could benefit from 1 Jace in your SB. Maybe you could benefit from a Taiga over the 2nd Tropical Island? With only 2 Decay main and USea as your main land, Taiga fills the slot perfectly. This little change might force you to play Snare over Counterspell though.







Congrats on the list and your tournament. Your boarding plans were more reasonable than you perhaps thought.

[theMonster]

@Manipulato, all fair points, especially the sorcery count for Goyf. Since I'm running Angler instead, I actively want fewer sorceries against opposing Goyfs. Thoughtseize timing can be awkward against blue decks, too, as they can Brainstorm in response. I think there are merits to both Seize and Pierce, and I like having access to both in the 75.

Your list looks good! I like Go for the Throat/Murderous Cut over a second Dismember, as the life loss matters against decks like Eldrazi. The two Pithing Needles have worked great for me because they help against Lands as well as Miracles (and even DnT and Infect). Do you like Golgari Charm right now? I've found that DnT boards out some number of 1-toughness dudes against us in fear of that effect, so I've been skimping on them. Perhaps I should reconsider, though.

@Qweerios, thanks a lot for the feedback. I'll implement your sideboarding guide. And I agree with you on Izzet Charm. It's won me games, for sure, but so would a more narrow answer. I find that I used it mostly for the Shock effect, so perhaps Terminate/Dismember is the way to go. Jace in the sideboard is interesting - never considered that. I assume it's for Miracles but also, say, Shardless(?). I have yet to test the Taiga 'cuz I don't own Scalding Tarns - reprint 'em, please! - but I've had the same hunch about it for a while now. Gonna test a few configurations this week and see what I come up with. Still experimenting with some sideboard slots, so we'll see.

Thanks, y'all!

[Manipulato]

@Manipulato, all fair points, especially the sorcery count for Goyf. Since I'm running Angler instead, I actively want fewer sorceries against opposing Goyfs. Thoughtseize timing can be awkward against blue decks, too, as they can Brainstorm in response. I think there are merits to both Seize and Pierce, and I like having access to both in the 75.

Your list looks good! I like Go for the Throat/Murderous Cut over a second Dismember, as the life loss matters against decks like Eldrazi. The two Pithing Needles have worked great for me because they help against Lands as well as Miracles (and even DnT and Infect). Do you like Golgari Charm right now? I've found that DnT boards out some number of 1-toughness dudes against us in fear of that effect, so I've been skimping on them. Perhaps I should reconsider, though.

@Qweerios, thanks a lot for the feedback. I'll implement your sideboarding guide. And I agree with you on Izzet Charm. It's won me games, for sure, but so would a more narrow answer. I find that I used it mostly for the Shock effect, so perhaps Terminate/Dismember is the way to go. Jace in the sideboard is interesting - never considered that. I assume it's for Miracles but also, say, Shardless(?). I have yet to test the Taiga 'cuz I don't own Scalding Tarns - reprint 'em, please! - but I've had the same hunch about it for a while now. Gonna test a few configurations this week and see what I come up with. Still experimenting with some sideboard slots, so we'll see.

Thanks, y'all!

About the Charm topic...
I think Golgari Charm is still good vs them. Even if they take out some numbers of x/1s they still have enough creatures who die to the charm (4 Mother, 4 Thalia, 4 Flickerwisp, here and there a Mangara, Spirit or Revoker). They cant take out all of there creatures vs us...And things like Mother, Thalia, Flickerwisp are too important for them to cut. In generel they can bring in maybe 2 Path & 2 RIP, so 4 Cards which means they can take out maybe 2-3 Revoker and 1-2 Spirits...Rest still dies...

It´s also not just for the DnT MU, also for the Elves/Maverick MU where I really want a sweeper...

[Qweerios]

About the Charm topic...
I think Golgari Charm is still good vs them. Even if they take out some numbers of x/1s they still have enough creatures who die to the charm (4 Mother, 4 Thalia, 4 Flickerwisp, here and there a Mangara, Spirit or Revoker). They cant take out all of there creatures vs us...And things like Mother, Thalia, Flickerwisp are too important for them to cut. In generel they can bring in maybe 2 Path & 2 RIP, so 4 Cards which means they can take out maybe 2-3 Revoker and 1-2 Spirits...Rest still dies...

It´s also not just for the DnT MU, also for the Elves/Maverick MU where I really want a sweeper...

Electrickery, Sulfur Elemental, and Dread of Night are all contenders as well. I would favor red cards for his version over black and green cards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Only electrickery fits the bill as he's looking for splash damage against Elves and Maverick...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Qweerios]

Golgari Charm also has splash damage on TNN (yours and theirs). Rough // Tumble would be the red alternative.

[Manipulato]

Electrickery does not kill an active Mother because it deals damage instead of -1/-1. Means he can safe a Thalia or Flickerwisp which sucks.

Rough//Tumble would not just kill my own TNN/SCM, it would also kill all my Deathrite Shamans which also sucks. It's just playable in RUG & UR Delver

Sulfur Elemental & Dread of Night are super vs DnT but they do nothing vs Elves & Maverick, means they are really narrow & unflexible answers. I face Elves alot.

Fire Covenant would also be possible but it costs RB1 which is more expensive & it also "just" deals damage which sucks vs Mother. The huge life loss can also be problematic. Maybe a 1/1 split between Charm & Covenent would be fine.

[theMonster]

I was running Marsh Casualties in the -1/-1 spot. I loved the effect but disliked the sorcery speed. :b::b: wasn't too big a problem because I run three Underground Seas. I've tried all the cards mentioned and can't settle on one. Golgari Charm has the added benefit of being an out to cards like Blood Moon (floating mana in response, like with Abrupt Decay) and the rare Leyline of the Void, but killing my own 1-toughness threats hurts. Electrickery is best if you see no opposing TNNs and Moms - a tough ask. I'm gonna keep testing Casualties 'cuz I've played with that one the least.

[eldub]

Have not had an opportunity to play any large events lately, but I've been playing a list modified from Ben Friedman's 4C Snapcaster-heavy build with pretty good success locally and in testing. Here's where I am currently:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Electrickery
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique

In regards to DnT: I've settled on Sulfur Elemental + Electrickery as my SB interaction of choice. They simply have the widest applications and I often will be fetching for Volcanic early in the matchup.

A few notes on specific cards/changes to Ben's list:

- I found his setup of 4 DRS, 3 SCM, 2 Gurmag to simply be too taxing on the GY, especially in the DRS mirrors. I would often find myself Delving away the majority of my GY to get an Angler down only to have Snapcaster rot in my hand without any impactful targets. I cut one SCM early in testing but honestly they've over-performed in general so decided to cut an Angler instead. Gurmag is obviously extremely powerful and ends a lot of games, but with 2x TNN, the second one feels less necessary than is does in Grixis Pyro shells.

- With the blue finishers, FoW is excellent (29 blue spells)

- Edit: Doesn't work this way! Counting SCM as a 3-drop is a bit of an overstatement. I've had plenty of meaningful, early interaction (especially against combo) leveraging SCM>Daze or SCM>FoW. Getting to untap after those interactions with a clock already in play is a huge tempo advantage. Also, sometimes Ambush Viper is good enough.

- My 4 flex-spot singletons have really played extremely well with Snapcaster. Flusterstorm and Counterspell in particular have easily earned their spots. Playing the singleton Probe is something I've done for a long time and I find the information alone to be well worth the spot.

- Actively protecting your Underground Seas is definitely something to keep in mind. I will often lead with Tropical Island on Turn 1 as Wasteland-bait + it casts all the one-drops.

- I've used Wasteland for mana more than any other delver deck I can remember. Having both SCM and TNN using colorless is a nice way to get yourself to 3 mana at times without having to use your final fetch land.

As with all Delver variants, there are pros and cons. The mana/curve are certainly greedy in comparison, but the list is seriously fun to play. As always, comments and feedback are welcome.

[nitewolf9]

- Counting SCM as a 3-drop is a bit of an overstatement. I've had plenty of meaningful, early interaction (especially against combo) leveraging SCM>Daze or SCM>FoW. Getting to untap after those interactions with a clock already in play is a huge tempo advantage. Also, sometimes Ambush Viper is good enough.


Just wanted to point out that I don't think SCM works the way you think it does. Alternate costs can't be paid for flashback.

[Stevestamopz]

Just wanted to point out that I don't think SCM works the way you think it does. Alternate costs can't be paid for flashback.

You are correct, Snapcaster and Daze/Force/alt casting costs don't work that way.

[Manipulato]

"- Counting SCM as a 3-drop is a bit of an overstatement. I've had plenty of meaningful, early interaction (especially against combo) leveraging SCM>Daze or SCM>FoW. Getting to untap after those interactions with a clock already in play is a huge tempo advantage. Also, sometimes Ambush Viper is good enough."

That does not work how you think :wink: You can flashback your FoW for 7 mana with SCM and Daze for 4 mana, otherwise the card would be fucking insane :eek:
The ability works only with phyrexian mana spells like Dismember/Probe/Surgical...

I´m also playing a slightly changed Friedmann list atm but I still play Goyfs in the MD because you need the pressure vs many decks. Angler is not the same here like in Grixis because we just dont have enough 0-1 spells like Probe/Forked Bolt/Therapy to cast him T2/T3 for one mana and TNN is just super slow and clunky vs combo. The SCM are more "counterspells" in such MU´s and you cast them more as a answer to spells, 2 damage per turn is also not huge...
You need a clock like Goyf vs combo and even vs Infect, Burn or Delver MU´s to close the game out as soon as possible. There are not always those super fast Delver openings available, so 3 Goyf are a must for me personally. He´s also strong vs Eldrazi...
I played a Goyfless Delver build before and and struggled in the MU´s where speed is important.

[eldub]

Thanks for the heads up guys! :eek:

[theMonster]

Playing a big tournament tomorrow, and I'm not sure which version of Delver I'm going to run. If I decide to play 4C, I wanted to get some last-minute feedback on my proposed list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Vendilion Clique

It's a little lower to the ground than my previous three-Snap version. I moved the K-Command to the sideboard, as I wanted to play fewer clunky cards in game 1. The question, I guess, is do I have enough pressure. With more velocity, Angler gets a little better and can probably come down a turn earlier than in the previous version.

I'm very unsure about the sideboard, notably the Casualties and Clique. In L.A.'s meta I should play a sweeper effect, as DnT and Elves are fairly well-represented. Mother of Runes (and the less common opposing TNN) make me want to go with Casualties, but do you think Electrickery is better? And I have no way to deal with a Marit Lage once it hits the board. Should I find room for a Diabolic Edict? Maybe in place of the third Surgical?

Thanks, guys!

[Manipulato]

Jarvis Yu is currently 7:0 with the 4c Snapcaster Ben Friedman list at Eternal Weekend in Columbus :cool:

[AfroSmile]

Jarvis Yu is currently 7:0 with the 4c Snapcaster Ben Friedman list at Eternal Weekend in Columbus :cool:

That is really nice! :-)

[HSCK]

He's into the Top 8. Looks like the deck can easily become a control or midrange deck postboard too.

[Manipulato]

He's into the Top 8. Looks like the deck can easily become a control or midrange deck postboard too.

Vs non-combo decks you just board out FoW and bring in all your good stuff from the SB (Painful Truths, more removal etc.) and just play a 4c good stuff midrange deck.
But he plays 3 SCM and 2 Angler instead of a couple Goyfs which I'm peronally not a big fan of it

[Manipulato]

Here's the Top 8 list from the Eternal Weekend Columbus.

7th - Jarvis Yu

DECK
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SIDEBOARD
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths

Sadly he lost his 1st Top 8 match 0:2 to DnT :rolleyes:
Maybe a couple of Golgari Charms would have helped :tongue:

[jarvisyu]

Here's the Top 8 list from the Eternal Weekend Columbus.

7th - Jarvis Yu

DECK
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SIDEBOARD
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths

Sadly he lost his 1st Top 8 match 0:2 to DnT :rolleyes:
Maybe a couple of Golgari Charms would have helped :tongue:

I mulled to 4 in game 2. It happens.

[eldub]

Jarvis,

How has 3x Spell Pierce performed?
Did you find that Gurmag over-taxed you GY resources with DRS and Snapcaster being hungry for spells to use?

Well done on another top 8!

[theMonster]

Congrats to Jarvis on a great finish! How'd you like the Sulfur Elemental in the sideboard? And was the second Dismember better than the second Jitte for you?

On a lesser note, I split the top8 of a 52-man $2K today with a similar maindeck but a different sideboard, beating RUG Delver, DnT, Miracles (w/ Stoneforge Mystic and TNN), and Grixis Delver, then double-drawing into the top8. Here was the list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread of Night
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Painful Truths

The Terminate was fine. Since I'm playing Ancient Grudge and K-Command, I thought I could shave on a Decay, but maybe that's wrong because of Miracles's prevalence. I expected lots of DnT, hence the Dread of Night and Marsh Casualties (which I'm not sure is even that great). I figured the latter hit opposing Pyromancers and the occasional Elves player, too. Pyroblast single-handedly won me my Miracles match, casting the same copy twice with Snapcaster in games 2 and 3. K-Command got to destroy a Stoneforge and a SoFI on turn 3, which felt great.

I'd again love some help on my sideboarding decisions.

Round 1: RUG Delver

-1 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -1 Counterspell
+1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

I was scared of Stifle, so I left in lots of the free countermagic and cut the clunkier Counterspell. Jitte might be too slow, and I can't target Nimble Mongoose with it. Maybe I should've cut two Dazes on the draw and left in the fourth Force, too.

Round 2: Death and Taxes

-4 Daze, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Counterspell
+2 Pithing Needle, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Kolaghan's Command

I probably overboarded for this matchup, but I would've hated drawing those cards late-game.

Round 3: Miracles (w/ Stoneforge and TNN, no Mentors)

-4 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -1 Terminate, -1 Gurmag Angler
+2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Painful Truths, +1 Kolaghan's Command, +1 Marsh Casualties

I probably overboarded for this matchup, too. Should I leave both Anglers in? It's so bad against Swords, Terminus, and Jace's -1, and I thought he might play Rest in Peace. (I saw one Snapcaster, so maybe I should've assumed he was on Surgical instead.) The TNN in game 1 compelled me to bring in Casualties, but maybe I just have to try to fight TNN on the stack instead and not bother with the sweeper.

Round 4: Grixis Delver

-2 Daze, -2 Force of Will
+1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

Should I cut all the Dazes on the draw and leave in the Forces? I thought it would be a card advantage game, which is why I shaved on Forces.

Thanks, y'all, and big ups again to Jarvis!

[Manipulato]

I mulled to 4 in game 2. It happens.

Sure, bad luck is not preventable in Magic. But I would be interested how you liked the 3 Pierce MD, I´m playing 3 Thoughtseize in those slots because Pierce underperformed for a long time especially in a cc3 heavy build...
Is there anything you did not like in the list or you would change?

[jarvisyu]

Sure, bad luck is not preventable in Magic. But I would be interested how you liked the 3 Pierce MD, I´m playing 3 Thoughtseize in those slots because Pierce underperformed for a long time especially in a cc3 heavy build...
Is there anything you did not like in the list or you would change?

I like Spell Pierce more for these reasons:

Just having a 'wall' of counters versus a certain subset of decks (miracles/combo) is a big deal. It's your 20-22nd blue cards for Force of Will (this is relevant!)

[jarvisyu]

here were the matchups I played briefly:
R1: Infect 2-0 Win
R2: Eldrazi 2-0 Win
R3: Miracles 2-1 Win
R4: Big Red 2-1 Win
R5: Eldrazi 2-1 Win
R6: Belcher 2-0 Win
R7: Death and Taxes 2-1 Win
R8: Grixis Delver with Pyromancer 1-2 Loss
R9: Dredge 2-1 Win
R10: Draw

R1 of T8: Death and Taxes 0-2 Loss

Going forward, I'd want access to a second Sulfur Elemental, given how popular D+T is now.

[Manipulato]

I like Spell Pierce more for these reasons:

Just having a 'wall' of counters versus a certain subset of decks (miracles/combo) is a big deal. It's your 20-22nd blue cards for Force of Will (this is relevant!)

Your list has 28 blue cards not 20-22in the MD? Loosing 3 blue cards would still leave you with 25 cards for FoW which is still solid. But I see your point.

[jarvisyu]

Your list has 28 blue cards not 20-22in the MD? Loosing 3 blue cards would still leave you with 25 cards for FoW which is still solid. But I see your point.

sorry, you're correct. I'm a bit sleep-deprived at the moment.

[eldub]

Jarvis,

Agree that we want (blue) interaction for the stack in these spots, just wondering how 3x Pierce played vs some mixture of Pierce, Snare, Fluterstorm, Counterspell, etc. It seems like variation/variety of interaction on the stack may be more useful with access to Snapcaster (and scale better late-game, especially for post-board games?).

[jarvisyu]

Jarvis,

Agree that we want (blue) interaction for the stack in these spots, just wondering how 3x Pierce played vs some mixture of Pierce, Snare, Fluterstorm, Counterspell, etc. It seems like variation/variety of interaction on the stack may be more useful with access to Snapcaster (and scale better late-game, especially for post-board games?).

Spell Snare seems like a metagame call and Counterspell costs too much blue mana.

I did have Flusterstorms in my sideboard, so there is that.

[MXG]

I finally bought into MTGO, and have been playing some Leagues with what's essentially Jarvis' version of the Friedman list. I'm on Hydroblast instead of the Sulfur Elemental in the SB, and doing fairly well. I've played 4 leagues so far, going 4-1 3 times, and 3-2 once.

The decks that I'm struggling against are some of the more "fringe" strategies, like the Hex Depths list that took down Eternal Weekend, and Blood Moon decks like Big Red. While not fringe, Eldrazi has been very 50/50, depending on the die roll and how our draws line up.

What I want to crowdsource is a way to improve these matchups without giving up ground against Miracles & Grixis Delver, against both of which I have a pretty insane winrate. To people who feel good with the rougher matchups, how are you approaching them? Are there any particular sideboard cards you're using?

Also, as an aside, I've noticed, with this deck far more than other Delver decks, there are draws where it feels right to actually delay deploying the Delver for a Turn, leaving up a fetchland to Bolt or Pierce my opponent's turn 1 play, or protect the Delver on Turn 2 after it lands. While this is essentially blasphemy in RUG Delver, has anyone else noticed it being more reasonable in this deck?

[Jonny Tempel]

Hey Guys!

I'm playing with the idea of upgrading my UR Delver build to 4c because this deck just looks like so much fun and seems to have a few different lines of play instead of "PoP/Bolt you to death".

What would you guys say are the reasons to run this over other delver builds and how viable is the deck vs. the commonly played tier decks? Would be cool if someone could say a few words about some of the spicy cards this deck is running (SCM, maindeck TNN etc)

I think i will use jarvis yu's list as a starting point. Looks very strong and funny. And congrats to your t8 finish!


Greetings, Jonny

[Ltj999]

hey so quick question, long time grixis player trying to figure out what to play at a tournament this weekend. What benefits vs traditional grixis does this 4c have? I can make my own general assumptions, but I wont have the chance to play the 4c deck before this weekend, so having some succinct pro/con vs traditional grixis would be really helpful.

Thanks!

[MXG]

hey so quick question, long time grixis player trying to figure out what to play at a tournament this weekend. What benefits vs traditional grixis does this 4c have? I can make my own general assumptions, but I wont have the chance to play the 4c deck before this weekend, so having some succinct pro/con vs traditional grixis would be really helpful.

Thanks!

Short answer:

* While YP is insane early, it's not as good in late-game topdeck wars.

* Snapcaster, while clunkier than YP, is what enables you to have such a flexible gameplan. They increase your removal density against creature decks, counter density against combo, Abrupt Decay density against Miracles, etc. And when you're ready to turn aggressive, Bolt-Snap-Bolt is one hell of a clock.

* Without YP, you have more maindeck slots open since you dont have to run Git Probe. This allows you to run more Spell Pierces, Abrupt Decays, etc.

* YP gives you a threat to cast through Blood Moon. This deck is cold to a resolved Blood Moon, unless you can float BG to Decay it.

* The most general downside is that the deck is less lean, and needs 3 mana sources to fully function, which is one more than Grixis really requires. This makes you more vulnerable to aggressive mana-denial, such as DnT.

[crush]

Hey Guys!

I'm playing with the idea of upgrading my UR Delver build to 4c because this deck just looks like so much fun and seems to have a few different lines of play instead of "PoP/Bolt you to death".

What would you guys say are the reasons to run this over other delver builds and how viable is the deck vs. the commonly played tier decks? Would be cool if someone could say a few words about some of the spicy cards this deck is running (SCM, maindeck TNN etc)

I think i will use jarvis yu's list as a starting point. Looks very strong and funny. And congrats to your t8 finish!


Greetings, Jonny
Snapcaster is for card advantage and reach (Bolt, SCM->Bolt is brutal). TNN is awesome vs D&T, Punishing Fire.Dec and Miracles.
What makes this build (the one Jarvis is playing) unique is IMO the diversification of threats, which makes SBing vs us quite difficult (you kill them with TNN game 1, they board in Toxic Deluge and you lay down a Gurmag Angler..).


hey so quick question, long time grixis player trying to figure out what to play at a tournament this weekend. What benefits vs traditional grixis does this 4c have? I can make my own general assumptions, but I wont have the chance to play the 4c deck before this weekend, so having some succinct pro/con vs traditional grixis would be really helpful.

Thanks!
Not a Grixis expert, but I would say this version is less explosive and more controlling. The good thing is that you are less often dead to something you cant handle preboard ( mainly thanks to MD Abrupt Decays), the bad is that you will get less free wins.

[Manipulato]

@ Ltj999 & Jonny Tempel:
Well the biggest advantage you get from the g splash are Goyf, AD & Golgari Charm. Your just way more flexible than any other Delver deck out there and the build feels just well prepared and well rounded.

But there are different build out there, the 4 Goyf Version for example feels like RUG Delver just with AD & DS MD which gives you a better midgame/lategame and more powerful spells in General.
The Friedmann/Jarvis list is a really midrangey build and plays more like 4c goodstuff than a traditional Delver deck, especially if you miss those fast Delver openings.

I played both Grixis Delver & 4c and the 4c Version just feels way more powerful and flexible than Grixis for example.
The downside is that you Need all 4 Colors to work perfectly which can be more difficult vs Wasteland decks like DnT, Delver etc. but if you learn how to pilot the deck and really think about your outs and landdrops it´s just fine in my experience.
MU´s like Eldrazi & Miracles get way better than with Grixis for example because AD gives you 3 MD Outs to Chalice and Counterbalance, 2 cards which you see very often atm.

[Jonny Tempel]

Thanks for the quick response guys, very helpful!

I'm looking towards the more midrangy build until i can afford to buy somw goyfs as i need the missing duals (tropical islands) first.
What about Grim Flayer? Could he be a possible replacement for Goyf until i get them? I know most lists are only running 4-6 sorceries but he's ability is no joke. I would not run the full playset but maybe 1-2 to have a cmc 2 thread.
So something like this:
4 Delver
4 DRS
2 Snapcaster
2 Grim Flayer
1-2 TNN
1 Gurmag

Or otherwise just stay with Jarvis build. Really looking forward to proxy 4c delver because i've never seen such a list in action. Seems like Austria's meta is a whole lot different then the german one.

greetings

[Manipulato]

Thanks for the quick response guys, very helpful!

I'm looking towards the more midrangy build until i can afford to buy somw goyfs as i need the missing duals (tropical islands) first.
What about Grim Flayer? Could he be a possible replacement for Goyf until i get them? I know most lists are only running 4-6 sorceries but he's ability is no joke. I would not run the full playset but maybe 1-2 to have a cmc 2 thread.
So something like this:
4 Delver
4 DRS
2 Snapcaster
2 Grim Flayer
1-2 TNN
1 Gurmag

Or otherwise just stay with Jarvis build. Really looking forward to proxy 4c delver because i've never seen such a list in action. Seems like Austria's meta is a whole lot different then the german one.

greetings

Short answer, no. Before considering something like Grim Flayer just play Gurmag Angler instead. He´s way better.
If you cant afford the Goyfs just start with the Friedmann list, it´s fine.

[jarvisyu]

Quick rundown of matches from SCG Baltimore:

R1: Win versus UR Delver
R2: Win versus Legend Miracles
R3: Loss versus Junk Maverick
R4: Win versus Shardless
R5: Loss versus Junk Nic Fit
R6: Win versus Jund
R7: Win versus Miracles
R8: Win versus G/R Lands (Dave Long)
R9: Win versus D+T

R10: Win versus Grixis Pyromancer Delver
R11: Loss versus Mentor Miracles (Philip Braverman)
R12: Win versus D+T
R13: Loss versus Eldrazi Stompy
R14: Win versus Black-Red Goryo's Vengeance (with Griselbrand and Borbrymos Enraged)
R15: Win versus W/R Eldrazi Taxes stompy

I played a slightly different list (accounting for the uptick in D+T) (two sulfur elementals, and a forked bolt) (cutting a dismember and a painful truths).

[MXG]

I played a list very similar to the Jarvis Yu / Ben Friedman version to a 2nd place finish yesterday at a GPT / Staples tourney. The main difference was a maindeck Leovold, which was insane in most matches day. 12/10 would play firmly.

R1: 2-1 against Manaless Dredge. Lost die roll, was put on the play G1.
R2: 0-2 against Blood Moon Stompy (Bad Standard Rares version). Lost die roll.
R3: 2-1 win against Ben Friedman's original 4c list (with Goyfs). Won die roll.
R4: 2-1 win against Predict Miracles. Lost die roll.
R5: 2-0 win against Jeskai Countertop Stoneblade. Won die roll.
R6: ID

I was 6th seed going into top 8.

QF: 2-0 win against DnT. On the draw from seeding.
SF: 2-0 win against Goblins. On the play from seeding.
Finals: 0-2 loss against Omnitell. On the draw from seeding. This is a good matchup, and I usually win it, but it was not in the cards for yesterday.

I played the following list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hydroblast
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command

[Manipulato]

I played a list very similar to the Jarvis Yu / Ben Friedman version to a 2nd place finish yesterday at a GPT / Staples tourney. The main difference was a maindeck Leovold, which was insane in most matches day. 12/10 would play firmly.

R1: 2-1 against Manaless Dredge. Lost die roll, was put on the play G1.
R2: 0-2 against Blood Moon Stompy (Bad Standard Rares version). Lost die roll.
R3: 2-1 win against Ben Friedman's original 4c list (with Goyfs). Won die roll.
R4: 2-1 win against Predict Miracles. Lost die roll.
R5: 2-0 win against Jeskai Countertop Stoneblade. Won die roll.
R6: ID

I was 6th seed going into top 8.

QF: 2-0 win against DnT. On the draw from seeding.
SF: 2-0 win against Goblins. On the play from seeding.
Finals: 0-2 loss against Omnitell. On the draw from seeding. This is a good matchup, and I usually win it, but it was not in the cards for yesterday.

I played the following list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hydroblast
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command

Gratz, great finish! Any changes or impressions you have to share with us? How about your 3 pierces MD :wink: ?

[MXG]

Any changes or impressions you have to share with us? How about your 3 pierces MD :wink: ?

I like the 3 Pierces. With the 3 Decays and 4 Bolts, and the Snaps, it gives you the tools and flexibility to fight any matchup. It's one of the things that Ben Friedman put in his original list, kept it as such, and I think it's right. I know some people want to play a Counterspell in place of one of the Pierces, but the deck is already a little on the clunky side.

The only thing I'm not sure on is the Hydroblast. The idea was to help against Burn, UR Delver, and Blood Moons (3 bad matchups), while still being a live sideboard card against Sneak Show, Goblins, Lands, etc. However, one Hydroblast does not guarantee it will be in your opener against the T1 Blood Moon. Maybe this slot can be used in a more productive way.

[blablub]

Hey Jarvis, what is you boardingplan against Eldrazi? I'm curious because i dont know which cards i wanna board out, would be great if you can help me :D

[Doneval]

I've been running Grixis Delver for a while, but I ran into the Jarvis Yu / Friedman 4c Delver last week and I'm in love with it.

Two questions for those of you running that version:
- Aren't you dead to Eldrazi in the main board? (unless you race them). No Pyromancer to throw blockers and no Dismember means you can't deal with most of the big attackers, right?
- 3 Spell Pierces main seems it could be a dead card in many matchups. Has anyone experimented turning one of them into a Spell Snare? It's still pitchable, but it's probably live in lots of matchups.

Can't wait to sleeve this up this weekend for a tournament in LA! I might even try the Leovold version.

[Doneval]

Going forward, I'd want access to a second Sulfur Elemental, given how popular D+T is now.
What's the advantage of a Sulfur Elemental over Dread of Night? Is it the body it comes up with, or is it the ability to flash it in that is the deciding factor? Because on paper Dread of Night looks much better (cheaper and likely stays around for the whole game).

[MXG]

What's the advantage of a Sulfur Elemental over Dread of Night? Is it the body it comes up with, or is it the ability to flash it in that is the deciding factor? Because on paper Dread of Night looks much better (cheaper and likely stays around for the whole game).

A few factors:

1: Split Second means that you can play it as a combat trick (or whenever is most opportune), and they can't react until it's too late. Compare this to Dread of Night, which you're forced to play at Sorcery speed. With all of the new tricks that DnT has now, being able to play it at Split Second speed is a big deal.

2. The 3/2 body is relevant. It's a real clock, and lets you close out games while the DnT player is stumbling. Also note, in this matchup, you're often The Beatdown. Your goal is to make them stumble, and then get them dead before they can recover.

3. Swords to Plowshares is going to be a live card against you anyway. It's better to stretch their StPs (by providing too many necessary targets) than to attempt to make them dead cards, which generally won't happen.

4. Sulfur Elemental is good against Miracles as well; Dread of Night is not. A 3/2 Split Second that shuts down Mentor is a fantastic threat. Dread of Night doesn't provide this sort of clock, and opens you up to 2-for-1s by Wear//Tearing it and your Pithing Needle together.


Aren't you dead to Eldrazi in the main board? (unless you race them). No Pyromancer to throw blockers and no Dismember means you can't deal with most of the big attackers, right?

TNN and Gurmag can deal with some of the big beaters, but honestly, you just try to go under them G1. The Abrupt Decays allow you to destroy Chalice, and if you Waste their Cavern, that means you can save your FoWs and Dazes for the Smashers and TKS while you clock them out.


Can't wait to sleeve this up this weekend for a tournament in LA! I might even try the Leovold version.

Good luck at Knight Ware! I'm not going to be free this weekend (hence my playing Fire and Dice last weekend), but I'm glad the deck will be repped.

[Doneval]

Good luck at Knight Ware! I'm not going to be free this weekend (hence my playing Fire and Dice last weekend), but I'm glad the deck will be repped.
Thanks! By the way, can you tell us more how Leovold worked out for you? The more I think about it, the more it seems a win-more card. Did you ever feel that Leovold turned the game around for you? I can see a Snapcaster definitely turning the game around, which is why I'm hesitating to take it out (that and the extra taxing on the mana requirements).

[MXG]

Thanks! By the way, can you tell us more how Leovold worked out for you? The more I think about it, the more it seems a win-more card. Did you ever feel that Leovold turned the game around for you? I can see a Snapcaster definitely turning the game around, which is why I'm hesitating to take it out (that and the extra taxing on the mana requirements).

When you play it, you've effectively Spirit of the Labyrinth'd your opponent (with no downside for yourself). Also, keep in mind that Leovold doesn't just draw a card when he's targeted by a spell. It's any spell or ability that your opponent controls that targets you or any permanent you control. Think about Legacy interactions. If your opponent is doing something other than casting a spell that will become a permanent, you're either shutting it down outright or drawing cards. In a deck where a good portion of your gameplan is to cause your opponent to stumble, Leovold synergizes extremely well.

In the Delver mirror, my opponent Bolted it, I drew a card, then I Forced the Bolt. My opponent could not Brainstorm or Ponder into additional removal (or anything), so I ran away with the game.

Against Miracles, right after the first Terminus, I played it a with Deathrite Shaman. My opponent couldn't Jace, Brainstorm, Ponder, or Predict until he found a second Terminus. At that point, it was too late.

Against DnT, after slamming it on Turn 2, I was free to develop my mana uninhibited by Ports or Wastelands, lest my opponent just give me tons of cards. Even if they Karakas him, which is the best thing they can do, you still draw a card.

Against combo, if you play it early enough, you shut off all of their cantrips, meaning they'd better "have it" now or they just lose. Any dicard effects against you draw you a card. Against Tendrils, you draw 10 cards when they Tendrils you. In postboard games, this generally means you draw into Flusterstorm.

Snapcaster + Ponder is a great 3 mana play. Leovold is so much sweeter.

That said Leovold was completely dead against Manaless Dredge and Blood Moon Stompy. In every other match that day, he was great. He's an extremely powerful one-sided hatebear(hate-ogre?) that a Delver deck can cohesively run.

As far as mana requirements go, think of it as closer to 1BG. You're always going to have Blue. Granted, you can't cast him off of Wasteland, but that hasn't been a big deal in my experience.

What aspects of him seem win-more?

[NegatorITA]

Gonna have a tournament this sunday, and still have not decided which list to sleeve up...

Lately goyf has been a bit of a disappointing in many matchup, but dark confidant was never dead (yes, I still play that list), yet I can't decide whichever list could perform better.

that's the list.

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

1 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland



SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pithing Needle or 1 needle/1 rod
SB: 2 Dismember


Thoughtseize were moved over main deck since the actual sorcery count (4 ponder) is often way too low with a goyf build, that's a true limit I'm seeing nowaday for goyf being underwelming, it's often a 3/4 at best.
I had little impact with this configuration through my last session though, bob was alwasy a good card to have, two discard, seems always to pop out after sideboard games, but never in g1, very odd because I still belive it may be a strong card overral even for the main deck.

I saw tough that someone else came up with maybe (maybe) a better set up, like:
Painful Truth in the main deck replacing Confidant, (adding up the sorcery count) no thuoghtseize but extra snapcaster mage/pierce. (that's Tomas Mar btw, list can be found here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19305&iddeck=146792))

really thorn in what to play because while Jarvis' list sounds appealing, I still fear that both snappy and nemesis are heavy to run, I goldfished that a little and I had that impression.

[Doneval]

Well, casting something that costs 3 mana already means you're on a good position :-) But part of that is my perception from pure Grixis Delver and running 18 lands perhaps.

The situations you mention are awesome, but if you're facing down threats already on the board, Leovold won't do much other than throw himself in front of them. That's mostly what I meant by him being a win-more card. But that's what Delver decks are about anyway: put a threat on the board, make it stick, and run it to the end. So in that regard he does seem to fit in quite well.

All right, I'll give him a try on Sunday. I'll just have to be super-vigilant about triggers!

[chaosjace]

I'm switching over to this version from grixis delver. The past events I've played young pyro was just wasted space in my decks. (Heavy combo meta) and I've never liked him or mentor, I don't want to feel like I have to get value out of them I want a creature that stands on its own like gurmag and true name. I feel like the MD pierces will be amazing in my meta. I also look forward to picking up a leovold for testing, but I might go with notion thief for now.

[blablub]

Another good finish of Friedmans Deck:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=11/13/2016&end_date=11/13/2016&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=36&city=Columbus&state=OH&country=US

It looks like this become the real deal, very interesting. I hope Yarvis will post a few lines here again :)

[NegatorITA]

different sideboard though.
Isn't there any sideboard guide for the Ben Friendman list?

[crush]

different sideboard though.
Isn't there any sideboard guide for the Ben Friendman list?

Sideboard is functionally quite similar to the stock SB.

Dismember -> D. Edict (good vs Marit Lage, but slower vs Eldrazi)
1x Painful Truths -> Sylvan Library (quite similar, but I dont like it as the spell count is already too low after SB)
1x Flusterstorm -> K. Command (deck is indeed already good vs combo and control, so this is also plausible)

[NegatorITA]

Sideboard is functionally quite similar to the stock SB.

Dismember -> D. Edict (good vs Marit Lage, but slower vs Eldrazi)
1x Painful Truths -> Sylvan Library (quite similar, but I dont like it as the spell count is already too low after SB)
1x Flusterstorm -> K. Command (deck is indeed already good vs combo and control, so this is also plausible)

Indeed, I wanted to know a little more about how to side in/side out :)

[crush]

Few guidelines to give you an idea. The in/out numbers are not synced as I figure them out on the spot..

Miracles
---
Out:
2-4 L.Bolt
0-2 Wasteland
2-4 Daze

In:
2 P.Needle
2 P.Truths
2 Flusterstorm

Delvers
---
Out:
2-4 FoW
2-4 Daze (play/draw)

In:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

D&T
---
Out:
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 FoW

In:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 P.Needle
2 Thoughseize

Combo
---
Out:
3 A.Decay
2 TNN
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Underground Sea
0-4 L.Bolt (trim this last)

In:
3 Surgical E.
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 P.Needle?

[big_EZ]

Hey everyone,

So, I'm pretty new to legacy, and I wanted to solicit some advice/opinions. I like delver strategies in modern, as I prefer the tempo and controlling game style. I really like the style of Canadian in legacy, but I don't really like how mongoose can just feel really irrelevant sometimes. So, I've been drawn to this deck because I like how the threats feel like they don't get outclassed as much.

My question is this: how does the Yu/Friedman style list compare to something like the BUG list Jim Davis ran in Baltimore, with Confidants and stifles and no Hymns? Both strategies appear very similar, with Davis' list just being lower to the ground while also running stifles for added disruption. Obviously TNN is a great evasive threat, but are the bolts and snaps worth the much more fragile mana base? Would this strategy just obviously outclass the BUG strategy in any matchups, or vice versa?

Thanks for all your help!

[NegatorITA]

Few guidelines to give you an idea. The in/out numbers are not synced as I figure them out on the spot..

Miracles
---
Out:
2-4 L.Bolt
0-2 Wasteland
2-4 Daze

In:
2 P.Needle
2 P.Truths
2 Flusterstorm

Delvers
---
Out:
2-4 FoW
2-4 Daze (play/draw)

In:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

D&T
---
Out:
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 FoW

In:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 P.Needle
2 Thoughseize

Combo
---
Out:
3 A.Decay
2 TNN
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Underground Sea
0-4 L.Bolt (trim this last)

In:
3 Surgical E.
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 P.Needle?

pretty useful, thanks, I was wondering where all these surgical are needed since I usually get off with two, surely three would help alot vs lands and the new turbo reanimator :)

[Whitefaces]

I've got a tournament in a couple of days and I'm umming and arring over playing something like the below, Grixis Delver or Bant Stoneblade. I'm expecting quite a lot of Miracles, Delver and DnT.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan’s Command

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

I'd build a sideboard going off the guide below of what to cut vs the popular decks.

Miracles
- 2 Bolt
- 3-4 Daze
- 1-2 Wasteland
- 1 Kolaghan’s Command

Delver
- 4 Daze/FoW (usually 2/2 split)
- 1 Counterspell

Eldrazi
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
- 1-2 Daze/FoW

DnT
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2-4 Daze
- 1 Counterspell

Storm
- 2 Gurmag Angler
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 0-2 Lightning Bolt

Lands
- 3-4 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Counterspell

Shardless
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Force of Will


Any input would be appreciated!

[Manipulato]

I've got a tournament in a couple of days and I'm umming and arring over playing something like the below, Grixis Delver or Bant Stoneblade. I'm expecting quite a lot of Miracles, Delver and DnT.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan’s Command

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

I'd build a sideboard going off the guide below of what to cut vs the popular decks.

Miracles
- 2 Bolt
- 3-4 Daze
- 1-2 Wasteland
- 1 Kolaghan’s Command

Delver
- 4 Daze/FoW (usually 2/2 split)
- 1 Counterspell

Eldrazi
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
- 1-2 Daze/FoW

DnT
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2-4 Daze
- 1 Counterspell

Storm
- 2 Gurmag Angler
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 0-2 Lightning Bolt

Lands
- 3-4 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Counterspell

Shardless
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Force of Will


Any input would be appreciated!

Hi,
same situation, will play my locals on Saturday too.

My suggestions:

Miracles -> Boarding is ok

Delver -> I would take out Kolaghans Command for sure, to clunky for what it does. I personally board out all my pierces in Delver MU´s especially OtD because I never have the U open to cast it but with this configuration I´m unsure about that because we dont play Goyf now, means we have more mana open to cast the pierce and Angler cost´s just 1 mana which works better with pierce.

Eldrazi -> Boarding is ok but I would not cut any Dazes or FoW´s.

DnT -> Pierce and CS ok, but I would not take out 2-4 Daze because the current builds are quite cc3 heavy and if you can shut down Vial your Dazes become strong. Would probably take out 2 FoW 2 Daze 2 Pierce 1 CS.

ANT -> I would take out 2 TNN 3 AD 2 Bolt maybe 1 Command, depending on how many cards you want to bring in out of your SB. Gurmag is slower but something needs to close the game and if you take out 4 creatures you just have 4 Delver 4 Shaman 2 SCM which are a poor clock especially if you miss your Delver opening.

Lands -> Kolaghans command needs to go here, rest is ok.

Shardless -> I would probably take out all 4 FoW´s because this is a grindy MU and losing value is tough + Pierce counters the most annoying cards like Lili, Deluge, Night of Souls Betrayal etc...But 2/2 is not that bad too...

But I need to test sideboarding with this new list too and am not 100% sold on the boardings atm.

Greetings

[crush]

My 2c:
vs Delver: Spell Pierce is key if you want your DRS to live (which is rather good), so I would keep them in.

vs Storm: you can cut one land (U.Sea or Tropical)

vs DNT: I usually only keep in FoWs (3-4x) and overload on removal/artifact hate. You really need to have an answer ready for Mom and Vial. Everything else can wait ;-)

[Whitefaces]

Hi,
same situation, will play my locals on Saturday too.

My suggestions:

Miracles -> Boarding is ok

Delver -> I would take out Kolaghans Command for sure, to clunky for what it does. I personally board out all my pierces in Delver MU´s especially OtD because I never have the U open to cast it but with this configuration I´m unsure about that because we dont play Goyf now, means we have more mana open to cast the pierce and Angler cost´s just 1 mana which works better with pierce.

Eldrazi -> Boarding is ok but I would not cut any Dazes or FoW´s.

DnT -> Pierce and CS ok, but I would not take out 2-4 Daze because the current build are quite cc3 heavy and if you can shut down Vial Daze becomes strong. Would probably take out 2 FoW 2 Daze 2 Pierce 1 CS.

ANT -> I would take out 2 TNN 3 AD 2 Bolt maybe 1 Command, depending on how many cards you want to bring in out of your SB. Gurmag is slower but something needs to close the game and if you take out 4 creatures you just have 4 Delver 4 Shaman 2 SCM...

Lands -> Kolaghans command needs to go here, rest is ok.

Shardless -> I would probably take out all 4 FoW´s because this is a grindy MU and losing value is tough + Pierce counters the most annoying cards like Lili, Deluge, Night of Souls Betrayal etc...But 2/2 is not that bad too...

But I need to test sideboarding with this new list too and am not 100% sold on the boardings atm.

Greetings

Thanks for the reply!

Delver - I totally agree on Pierces OTD, I'll board them out there. On the play is a little different because of the reasons you mention, but I think they'll be cut too. I quite like the Command as a late game bomb in Delver matchups though. I will most likely have 2 Baleful Strix in the SB too so plan to take a very controlling role.

Eldrazi - You're right, my friends said don't cut FoW or Daze too, I'll keep them in!

DnT - That's fair, I like 2/2 fow and daze actually, especially since I have a lot of ways to kill Vial. There will probably be a Null Rod in the board.

Lands - I was thinking of Command to kill Chalices or Spheres if they bring them in, but there are decays already, I'll cut the command.

Shardless - Hmm, I used to always take out the full set of Forces from the Delver side but have been having success leaving two in. They just have a stronger late game than us so we need to find the right angle, which I've found to be efficiency. The tempo from a FoW can be game changing and Pierce only matches up vs the cards you mention really, Lili, Deluge and NosB. Daze already taxes them very hard.


My 2c:
vs Delver: Spell Pierce is key if you want your DRS to live (which is rather good), so I would keep them in.

vs Storm: you can cut one land (U.Sea or Tropical)

vs DNT: I usually only keep in FoWs (3-4x) and overload on removal/artifact hate. You really need to have an answer ready for Mom and Vial. Everything else can wait ;-)

I think I agree with Manipulato on Pierces, they've usually been quite poor in the delver MU after board. But I'll be boarding in a Fluster or two.

Good point on Storm, I'll cut a trop probably.

DnT, this is what I've done in the past. Hmm...

[Manipulato]

Jarvis where are you? Would be cool to hear your opinion on those boarding strategies.

[jarvisyu]

Jarvis where are you? Would be cool to hear your opinion on those boarding strategies.

So much of how I play magic is based on what I've seen in game 1 // how my opponent plays, so I generally do NOT have a sideboarding guide, nor do I encourage the use of one.

I'm much more willing to discuss philosophical approaches to matchups.

[Whitefaces]

Thoughts on this?

SB:

2 Baleful Strix
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismember
2 Dread of Night
1 Thoughtseize - potentially a Leovold instead, it would come in vs DnT, Storm, Lands and other combo too.

Miracles: 8
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Dread of Night
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Bolt
- 3 Daze
- 2 Wasteland
- 1 Kolaghan’s Command

Delver: 7
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Daze
- 2 FoW
- 1 Counterspell
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Dismember
+ 2 Pyroblast

Eldrazi: 3
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Murderous Cut

DnT: 6
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 FoW
- 2 Daze
- 1 Counterspell
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 2 Dread of Night
+ 1 Dismember
+ 1 Thoughtseize

Storm: 9
- 2 Gurmag Angler
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 1 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Tropical Island
+ 3 Surgical
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 2 Fluster
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 1 Thoughtseize

Lands: 5 - 5 may be too few, could be lacking here. Leaving in 2 Daze feels bad too.
- 2 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Counterspell
+ 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Thoughtseize

Shardless: 5
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Force of Will
- 1 ?
2 Baleful Strix
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismember

Decklist:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan’s Command
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta


So much of how I play magic is based on what I've seen in game 1 // how my opponent plays, so I generally do NOT have a sideboarding guide, nor do I encourage the use of one.

I'm much more willing to discuss philosophical approaches to matchups.

I agree with this to an extent, I will definitely board differently from person to person, but it's nice having a rough plan laid out :)

[Manipulato]

So much of how I play magic is based on what I've seen in game 1 // how my opponent plays, so I generally do NOT have a sideboarding guide, nor do I encourage the use of one.

I'm much more willing to discuss philosophical approaches to matchups.

Sure I see your point and it makes sense but how Whiteface said it´s good to have a rough plan vs the common decks.
But if you want to discuss philosophical approaches how do you see the Eldrazi MU with the Friedmann list? In the past I saw the MU like a race, land Delver/Goyf and tempo them out with counters and wastelands but without Goyfs I think it goes more into the control/midrange direction...How do you see that?

[redtwister]

As a long-time DnT player who is moving to Grixis and 4C to become a better player overall, I think a lot depends on thinking about what your opponent played game 1 (I agree with Jarvis on this).

For example, you want a high chance of stopping Vial, but also being able to stop the curve of mom into Thalia 1.0 into Prelate is huge.

One thing I would look for is, did they play Cavern? If you see Cavern game 1, I think counters are worse than overloading on artifact hate, but if I didn't see it, then 3 FoW and 2 Daze is a solid decision. I will say, Cavern is more common now rather than less with DnT since they have a lot more humans. Secondly, if you see Serra Avenger, I would expect 0-1 Cavern because WW is actually super important for non-vial draws. Thirdly, did you see Thalia 2.0? Then Cavern is more likely and fetching will be more complicated. At that point, you want to emphasize killing disruptive creatures and less on countering because you can be facing 2-3 Caverns in the Thalia 2.0 builds.

[Whitefaces]

As a long-time DnT player who is moving to Grixis and 4C to become a better player overall, I think a lot depends on thinking about what your opponent played game 1 (I agree with Jarvis on this).

For example, you want a high chance of stopping Vial, but also being able to stop the curve of mom into Thalia 1.0 into Prelate is huge.

One thing I would look for is, did they play Cavern? If you see Cavern game 1, I think counters are worse than overloading on artifact hate, but if I didn't see it, then 3 FoW and 2 Daze is a solid decision. I will say, Cavern is more common now rather than less with DnT since they have a lot more humans. Secondly, if you see Serra Avenger, I would expect 0-1 Cavern because WW is actually super important for non-vial draws. Thirdly, did you see Thalia 2.0? Then Cavern is more likely and fetching will be more complicated. At that point, you want to emphasize killing disruptive creatures and less on countering because you can be facing 2-3 Caverns in the Thalia 2.0 builds.

Thanks for the input. I'm quite familiar with all styles of DnT as lots of my friends play it, I agree with your assessments. The Cavern / Avenger point hadn't occurred to me though! Good to keep in mind :)

A summation of what you just said is why I prefer Force of Will over Daze post SB, since we're boarding into more removal and artifact removal for equipment/vial, assuming things match up the way we want it to FoW can be used on their SB cards (I like being aggressive with it to protect an early delver from StP and PtE for example), or for a huge tempo swing. I tend to save Wastelands vs DnT for Karakas or Caverns too, so FoW can still catch creatures later in the game.

[jarvisyu]

Sure I see your point and it makes sense but how Whiteface said it´s good to have a rough plan vs the common decks.
But if you want to discuss philosophical approaches how do you see the Eldrazi MU with the Friedmann list? In the past I saw the MU like a race, land Delver/Goyf and tempo them out with counters and wastelands but without Goyfs I think it goes more into the control/midrange direction...How do you see that?

i don't think you can realistically hope to control them forever, so i just try to kill them.

they have too many big guys, and cavern is gonna force a big guy through at some point

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
went 3-1-1 today and finished at 4th place at my local store. Played the Friedmann list for the 1st time and was quite satisfied.

Here is the list I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Electrickery
1 Dread of Night
1 Kolaghans Command

My MU'S were:

Round 1: BG NicFit Won 2:0
Round 2: BR Reanimator Won 2:0
Round 3: Esper Deathblade Won 2:0
Round 4: Death & Taxes Draw after time 1:1
Round 5: Goblin Moon Stompy Lost 1:2

The loss vs Goblin Stompy was really frustrating because I never drew Lightning Bolt in G2 when he was at 1 life for 3-4 turns and G3 I never ever drew a 2nd creature , just a lonely Shaman which drained him to 10 life, every creature even a SCM would have won me the game but instead of a cantrip or creature I drew FoW, Daze, Pierce, AD which did absolutley nothing because he had enough mana and all of his creatures are Decay proof with cc4 :rolleyes: Cost me the 1st place...

Things I noticed and some feedback:

- Snapcaster Mage was super great! Always helped me and always a good topdeck. Bolt + SCM just gave me so much reach and can turn a game completley.

- Gurmag Angler was ok but not great, I had some problems casting him here and there but the biggest problem was the antisynergy with SCM, I had to delving away some cards I wanted to stay in the GY for later SCM.

- FoW had always something to pitch, a blue count with 28 cards is perfect and even if I boarded out some pierces or Dazes you have still a reliable U count.

- The manabase feels perfect for a 4c deck! Without Goyfs you have only AD with green mana in the deck which means you can fetch and play a Grixis Delver manabase with a light g splash for AD. The manabase becomes way more solid & the dependence from all 4 colors at the same time sinks alot. The 3rd Underground Sea is also a good insurance for double Wastelands on the oponents side.

- Dread of Night was great vs DnT and superior to Sulfur Elemental because the DnT player had 2 Swords in his hand which are another reason I prefer DoN over the Elemental. 2 needles were also great.

All in all I'm still a bit unsure if I should play 3 Tarmogoyf instead of the 2 Angler & 3rd SCM just because of the antisynergy between both and more aggression/faster gameplay. But the better manabase is also worth it.

We will see, keep on bUrgin guys.

[theMonster]

Nice result, Manipulato. I played a local last night and went 3-0-1, beating Slivers, Infect, and Eldrazi and drawing with Lands. (We played a 30-minute game 2, and I needed one or two more turns to win game 3 in time).

I played the Friedman maindeck with -1 Pierce and +1 Counterspell. My sideboard was super meta-driven:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Arc Trail
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghan's Command

Several Chalice decks and multiple DnT/Elves in the room, no Miracles. Arc Trail was actually pretty good against Infect. I played it over Forked Bolt out of fear of Sanctum Prelate on 1. Thought it was fine. Perhaps Marsh Casualties should be Electrickery instead; I see very little opposing True-Name Nemeses locally, and the instant speed and ease of casting it probably outweigh the fact that Mother of Runes can save a creature. I also should probably devote one slot to Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental and would play a Painful Truths in an open meta.

And I'm off the Counterspell. I've been boarding it out more frequently of late, which tells me I shouldn't play it. It's great versus Miracles, yes, but I can play other cards for that matchup. In that slot I guess I'd play either the third Pierce/one of the sideboard Thoughtseizes or something like Dismember/Terminate, depending on the meta.

Read some good things on here and elsewhere about Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Any other thoughts on him? Seems good against Port/Wasteland, Brainstorm, removal, discard ... The mana cost scares me, but the effect seems powerful. I guess you'd have to cut the third Snapcaster for him, right? Anyone else think that's worth exploring?

Also, do you think it's viable to play a miser's Grim Lavamancer in a DnT meta, maybe in the sideboard? You'd probably play Goyfs instead of Anglers so as not to tax the graveyard, right?

Thanks, y'all.

[blablub]

How do you win against Eldrazi without Goyfs or Strixes? They just overrun me everytime :( of course i played against draws which are on the topper side but espically on the draw, i feel there are too fast. Are there any tricks or Sideboard Updates?
I feel if you can stabilze with Nemesis and Jitte u will win, but it feels hard to not fall too behind. I need your help :D

I have thougt about Toxic-Deluge to clear their Board on Turn 3. X=5 might be to hard though :(

[NegatorITA]

is there any reason why nobody plays this over marsh casuality?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/kld/89.jpg
or are you tell me you expect to have 5 mana with double black in time for the -2/-2? :rolleyes:

[Manipulato]

is there any reason why nobody plays this over marsh casuality?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/kld/89.jpg
or are you tell me you expect to have 5 mana with double black in time for the -2/-2? :rolleyes:

Well, to be honest, I did not know this Card exist, it´s a new Card from Kaladesh...
Defenetly worth considering as a replacement for Electrickery, Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties but cc3 is not optimal, quite expensive for what it does...

[NegatorITA]

Well, to be honest, I did not know this Card exist, it´s a new Card from Kaladesh...
Defenetly worth considering as a replacement for Electrickery, Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties but cc3 is not optimal, quite expensive for what it does...
It is indeed more expensive, yet it's "the best" at what it does in this deck at least, doesn't kill nemesi, avoid MoR, has istant speed... I wish they would make one at cc 1B, but I guess it would just be OP or deal with all creatures (like Golgari charm does)

[MXG]

I managed a 5-0 yesterday with the Friedman/Yu list, after going for 2 Baleful Strix maindeck over the Gurmag Anglers and a slightly modified sideboard, to taste.

While Gurmag is insanely powerful, I think that the inherent clunkiness of this list as compared to, say, Grixis Delver, means that I was more likely to be losing a game while stuck these harder-to-cast cards and that when I'm resolving Gurmags, I'm generally going to be winning that game anyway. The cantrip effect of Baleful Strix is not to be understated, and it really helps smooth out the deck's draws, as well as increase the clock while mitigating the effects of Terminus. Baleful Strix plays D about as well as Gurmag (easier to remove, but blocks Flying and cantrips), and at no point in the league did I wish the Owl were a Fish.

2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 ANT
2-1 Miracles
2-1 BUG Delver (Hymns and TNNs)
2-0 Miracles

[blablub]

Congrats :)

I'm very happy with that deck too but i still need something to turn that Eldrazi MU into a favourite one. Do you feel the same or is it just me who is too stupid to win against them? :D

[jarvisyu]

Congrats :)

I'm very happy with that deck too but i still need something to turn that Eldrazi MU into a favourite one. Do you feel the same or is it just me who is too stupid to win against them? :D

I would consider it a very close matchup // dieroll dependent.

[Manipulato]

Congrats :)

I'm very happy with that deck too but i still need something to turn that Eldrazi MU into a favourite one. Do you feel the same or is it just me who is too stupid to win against them? :D

I had really good results vs Eldrazi with my 4 Goyf list but I never played the MU with the Friedmann list but I think it becomes more difficult. Cutting 2 Angler and 1 SCM to add 3 Tarmogoyf would probably improve the MU a bit but you give up the more stable manabase and are more vulnerable to AD then...
If you want to improve the friedmann list I would advice you to play 2 Diabolic Edict in the SB, it also improves the Lands MU for example. Edict into SCM flashback Edict seems strong vs them...

[Baum]

That's basically what I did. When I tested the Friedman List, I really struggled against Eldrazi because Angler is way too slow to stem their early aggression. After swapping 2 Angler and 1 SCM for 3 Goyfs, the Matchup felt way better. It might be correct to play 3 SCM / 2 Goyfs though. I wouldn't go higher than 3 Goyfs.
I should say that I only managed to test on XMage so far. Since a lot of players over there also just test decks and aren't experienced, the results should be taken with a grain of salt...

I also took out the 3rd Usea and added another Trop. It feels fine so far, but I guess I might run into problems against Death & Taxes, when I want to side in 2 Edicts, 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Painful Truths as additional black cards.

Regarding the vulnerability to Decay: Does it really matter? I mean, Delver and DRS are lightning rods for opposing Decays anyway. I'd rather overload the card if I can't blank it completely.

One problem I expect to run into with the Goyf build is the Goyf size against Angler decks. Without Baleful Strix, it might be difficult to get the Goyf to 5/6 to trump opposing 5/5s. Right now, I'm running two Jittes in my SB, so that might fix the issue.

The current sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Painful Truths
1 Sulfur Elemental

[Manipulato]

That's basically what I did. When I tested the Friedman List, I really struggled against Eldrazi because Angler is way too slow to stem their early aggression. After swapping 2 Angler and 1 SCM for 3 Goyfs, the Matchup felt way better. It might be correct to play 3 SCM / 2 Goyfs though. I wouldn't go higher than 3 Goyfs.
I should say that I only managed to test on XMage so far. Since a lot of players over there also just test decks and aren't experienced, the results should be taken with a grain of salt...

I also took out the 3rd Usea and added another Trop. It feels fine so far, but I guess I might run into problems against Death & Taxes, when I want to side in 2 Edicts, 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Painful Truths as additional black cards.

Regarding the vulnerability to Decay: Does it really matter? I mean, Delver and DRS are lightning rods for opposing Decays anyway. I'd rather overload the card if I can't blank it completely.

One problem I expect to run into with the Goyf build is the Goyf size against Angler decks. Without Baleful Strix, it might be difficult to get the Goyf to 5/6 to trump opposing 5/5s. Right now, I'm running two Jittes in my SB, so that might fix the issue.

The current sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Painful Truths
1 Sulfur Elemental


Yeah I recognized the same. You don't get the Goyf bigger than 4/5 in Delver MU's (Exept they have a Strix in the GY but even than they can delve it away or eat it with DS) so the opposing Anglers trump your goyfs. It's the reason I played 2 Dismember or 1 Dismember 1 Murderous Cut in the SB. The sorcery count without any TS is also very low with only 4 Ponder.

I agree on the AD argument for the most part but sometimes you just have 2 Goyfs dying to the opposing AD's and your out of gas, Anglers just trump this scenario, just a Bonus.

I think your boarding vs DnT is wrong by the way. You should just bring in these cards out of your SB:

2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental

Everything else is too cute vs them especially the Painful Truths...

The biggest advantage for me of the Friedmann list is the more stable manabase, 2 SCM are enough for me.

[AfroSmile]

I bring the Friedmann deck to a 67 players tournament in Switzerland.
I finished 10th with 5-2 loosing too 4c Control and Infect.

I usually playing big bUrg Delver (4 goyf + 2 Gurmag) version of the deck. I confirm the Manipulato statements!


Yeah I recognized the same. You don't get the Goyf bigger than 4/5 in Delver MU's (Exept they have a Strix in the GY but even than they can delve it away or eat it with DS) so the opposing Anglers trump your goyfs. It's the reason I played 2 Dismember or 1 Dismember 1 Murderous Cut in the SB. The sorcery count without any TS is also very low with only 4 Ponder.
That is the reason, when I play Tarmogoyf, i play at least 2 Thoughseize and sideboard strix. In this way, Goyf is at least 4/5 and often 5/6.



I agree on the AD argument for the most part but sometimes you just have 2 Goyfs dying to the opposing AD's and your out of gas, Anglers just trump this scenario, just a Bonus.
I think it depends on the meta. In Switzerland, there is a lot of Decay deck, so goyf is a no go in this version.


The biggest advantage for me of the Friedmann list is the more stable manabase, 2 SCM are enough for me.
I feel too! I think it is one of the most stable version of 4c delver.

[Manipulato]

I bring the Friedmann deck to a 67 players tournament in Switzerland.
I finished 10th with 5-2 loosing too 4c Control and Infect.

I usually playing big bUrg Delver (4 goyf + 2 Gurmag) version of the deck. I confirm the Manipulato statements!


That is the reason, when I play Tarmogoyf, i play at least 2 Thoughseize and sideboard strix. In this way, Goyf is at least 4/5 and often 5/6.


I think it depends on the meta. In Switzerland, there is a lot of Decay deck, so goyf is a no go in this version.


I feel too! I think it is one of the most stable version of 4c delver.

Hi Afrosmile,
gratz on the good finish!

Yeah the Friedmann version has definitely the best manabase available for a truly 4c deck, one thing I love about this version. The only Thing I dont like about this list is the antisynery between the 3 SCM and the 2 Angler but just replacing them with 3 Goyf is also not what I want atm I think because of the more unstable manabase and the low count of sorcery´s...I hvae also lots of AD decks in my area and Angler is just better there...

Any changes you would make after the tournament? How looks your SB?

Best of luck from me for the MKM Series in Prague this weekend! Keep on bUrg´in :smile:

[crush]

Regarding the mana base, I remember that the last time I played this list I boarded out everything red (4 L.Bolt + 2 Volc.Island) against every blue control deck (and possibly combo).

After sideboarding I usually ended up with max 2 bolts vs combo & control. So I took out the last two bolts and volcanics. Worked out pretty well.

[theMonster]

I've been testing a singleton Leovold, Emissary of Trest in place of the third Snapcaster. So far results have been mixed.

Things he's done in my games:

- Rotted in hand due to being uncastable
- Been pitched to FoW
- Been immediately Decayed, netting a 2-for-1
- Stopped my opponent from Jace-storming, forcing him to either +2 (which drew me a card) or bounce Leovold (which drew me a card). So I netted four or five cards off the exchange before it got killed.
- Drawn about 15(!) cards against Lands. He had to Maze of Ith it for many turns. When he tried to double-P. Fire it, I drew two cards (one being Surgical), countered the second copy, then Surgical-ed P. Fire. That was probably Leovold at his best.

I haven't drawn him against DnT yet, which is another matchup where I hope he shines. The casting cost is definitely scary, though. Curious to see if anyone has tried him.

[ironclad8690]

Gave this deck a try for a league. Friedman stock list with 2 baleful.

2-3

BUG Delver: 1-2
Dredge: 2-0
Dredge: 2-1
Miracles: 1-2
Eldrazi: 0-2

It was hard to get enough mana to be able to flash stuff back with snapcaster very often. Could have been variance though.

[AfroSmile]

Hi Afrosmile,
gratz on the good finish!

Yeah the Friedmann version has definitely the best manabase available for a truly 4c deck, one thing I love about this version. The only Thing I dont like about this list is the antisynery between the 3 SCM and the 2 Angler but just replacing them with 3 Goyf is also not what I want atm I think because of the more unstable manabase and the low count of sorcery´s...I hvae also lots of AD decks in my area and Angler is just better there...

Any changes you would make after the tournament? How looks your SB?

Best of luck from me for the MKM Series in Prague this weekend! Keep on bUrg´in :smile:
Thanks! Tommorow is the day for MKM Series Prague. I'm thinking about the change I can bring in the sideboard.
The antisynergy between SCM and Gurmag is quite offen problematic. If we want to really improve the deck, that will be my starting point. Maybe a Snapcaster less can improve the problematic for another draw spell or card advantage spell.

It was the same Sideboard as Jarvis -1 Painful Truth and +1 Kolaghan'à Command. I want to try that card, but I doesn't fit very well. In my tests.


Regarding the mana base, I remember that the last time I played this list I boarded out everything red (4 L.Bolt + 2 Volc.Island) against every blue control deck (and possibly combo).

After sideboarding I usually ended up with max 2 bolts vs combo & control. So I took out the last two bolts and volcanics. Worked out pretty well.
Really? I'm a bit surprised. The Land count isn't to low? I side out quite often decay against some combo deck because bolt can surprised them with a little burst.


I've been testing a singleton Leovold, Emissary of Trest in place of the third Snapcaster. So far results have been mixed.

Things he's done in my games:

- Rotted in hand due to being uncastable
- Been pitched to FoW
- Been immediately Decayed, netting a 2-for-1
- Stopped my opponent from Jace-storming, forcing him to either +2 (which drew me a card) or bounce Leovold (which drew me a card). So I netted four or five cards off the exchange before it got killed.
- Drawn about 15(!) cards against Lands. He had to Maze of Ith it for many turns. When he tried to double-P. Fire it, I drew two cards (one being Surgical), countered the second copy, then Surgical-ed P. Fire. That was probably Leovold at his best.

I haven't drawn him against DnT yet, which is another matchup where I hope he shines. The casting cost is definitely scary, though. Curious to see if anyone has tried him.
I was asking myself if the card fit well in bUrg.
Goyf version? Friedmann Version?

[Manipulato]

Thanks! Tommorow is the day for MKM Series Prague. I'm thinking about the change I can bring in the sideboard.
The antisynergy between SCM and Gurmag is quite offen problematic. If we want to really improve the deck, that will be my starting point. Maybe a Snapcaster less can improve the problematic for another draw spell or card advantage spell.

It was the same Sideboard as Jarvis -1 Painful Truth and +1 Kolaghan'à Command. I want to try that card, but I doesn't fit very well. In my tests.


Really? I'm a bit surprised. The Land count isn't to low? I side out quite often decay against some combo deck because bolt can surprised them with a little burst.


I was asking myself if the card fit well in bUrg.
Goyf version? Friedmann Version?

Hey Elie,
how went your trials for the mainevent? Feedback would be great.

[theMonster]

I was asking myself if the card fit well in bUrg.
Goyf version? Friedmann Version?

Friedman list, yeah. Sleeved him up for FNM last night and drew him in two games.

- game 1, UR Delver. Prevented my opponent from casting the two Brainstorms in his hand. He tried to Bolt Leo, I drew a card, and countered the Bolt. Leo poked for 3, then I cast the maindeck miser's Thoughtseize I'm trying over the third Pierce to take his Reveler. He found a Bolt two turns later, I drew a card, and he died. Pretty good exchange.
- game 2, Jund. Immediately Decayed, So basically a more expensive Strix. <shrug>

I think the upside of Leo is extremely high, seeing as I've drawn 15+ cards with him and stopped many Brainstorms. Plus it presents a real clock and makes us a little less reliant on the graveyard. The cost is real, though.

[AfroSmile]

Hey Elie,
how went your trials for the mainevent? Feedback would be great.

I did only one Trial, because my girlfriend is there and I don't to make her wait for too long.
First Match was against Eldrazi.

Game 1: T1 Deathrite + Daze, T2 Wasteland + Delver, T3 Delver Flip on ponder, play Underground Sea, play Ponder, preparing Wasteland for the next turn... and basically, it was it..
Game 2: He plays Thorn of Ametyst which slow me enough. He played 2 Though Knot Seer and I cannot come back.
Game 3: I keep a 1 land hand, with DRS, BS, Ponder and other cards. I play T1 DRS, he play Thorn. Then I did a miss evaluation by playing Brainstorm and not Ponder. I was too confident, I was sure I'll draw a land. But it wasn't the case and I loose on the spot.

I hope it will be better today and I will be more concentrated to avoid such play.
I'll give you more news later.

[Manipulato]

Ben Friedman just went in 40th place of GP Chiba with his 4c Delver but with a new configuration...

BEN FRIEDMAN'S SULTAI DELVER - 40TH PLACE

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm surprised that he changed the manabase, probably because of the 2 Leovold in the 75.

The SB seems more geared to defeat Eldrazi & Sneak Show which are very popular in Japan.
Uping the TS count to 3 is obvious when he cuts the 3rd MD Pierce & the 2 Flusterstorm in the SB.

[Manipulato]

Ben friedman also released a new video about his 4c Delver deck with some new changes.

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-11282016-60-card-shootout-with-40-card-friedman-legacy-grixis-delver/

[diablo4488]

Hi guys
My actual sideboard looks like this:

2x Pyroblast
2x Thoughtseize
2x Surgicial Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Golgari Charm
1x Dread of Night
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Forked Bolt
1x Dismember
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Painful Truths

My meta consists of Delver, Infect, Chalice-Decks, some Combo.
As you can see none of them is really "lategame oriented" and there is not so much Combo around (i think the deck is already strong vs).
So my idea is to cut the 2x Thoughseizes.
How do you guys feel about Life from the Loam? In which matchup you would board in this one? I can imagine its strong vs. mana denial stategies and maybe vs Delver (i don't like the idea to much because of opponents DRS).
What would you put into this 2 free slots?

Regards

[Manipulato]

Hi guys
My actual sideboard looks like this:

2x Pyroblast
2x Thoughtseize
2x Surgicial Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Golgari Charm
1x Dread of Night
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Forked Bolt
1x Dismember
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Painful Truths

My meta consists of Delver, Infect, Chalice-Decks, some Combo.
As you can see none of them is really "lategame oriented" and there is not so much Combo around (i think the deck is already strong vs).
So my idea is to cut the 2x Thoughseizes.
How do you guys feel about Life from the Loam? In which matchup you would board in this one? I can imagine its strong vs. mana denial stategies and maybe vs Delver (i don't like the idea to much because of opponents DRS).
What would you put into this 2 free slots?

Regards

Hi,
giving you some tips would be more easy if we knew your MD :wink:

[diablo4488]

Hi,
giving you some tips would be more easy if we knew your MD :wink:

Just click (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-11-16-4c-delver/) on my signature :wink:

[NegatorITA]

Ben friedman also released a new video about his 4c Delver deck with some new changes.

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-11282016-60-card-shootout-with-40-card-friedman-legacy-grixis-delver/

good, I've relatively solid on my jund, better to watch and learn how to get better with my 4c too :D

EDIT
I see he upped the land count, I too felt it was "Low" to happily flashback things with snappy all day long...

[AfroSmile]

Hi everybody,

It is hard for me to write the report, because I don't really have time. Having a lot of work and organising a tournament this weekend.
So here is a little report of MKM Series Prague where I finished 6 -3. I don't remember exactly the game, but I'll do my best.
Here we go!

Round 1: BUG Delver - Tom, a nice german opponent
Game 1: I'm on the Draw. The start was pretty even, but I loose when he put two goyf on the board. I didn't drew the decay early enough to do something against them.
Game 2: I won this game with Gurmag, if I remember well.
Game 3: I'm on the draw and want to play the more control style of play. I keep a one land hand with a lot of cantrip. I start with ponder but didn't find a land. And I was screwed out of the game. (I don't remember any wasteland this game) Maybe I should have mulligan.
0 - 1

Round 2: Miracles - The serious player
Game 1: I'm on the draw, we both mulligan to 5 and I have really good 5 hand card. If I remember well, I have Delver, Fetch, Wasteland, Daze, DS. This game is hard for my opponent.
T1: My opponent put a fetch in play. I fetch and play DS.
T2: He put a second fetch in play. Fetch both and put island and tundra in play and try to resolve a counterbalance. I daze, he force. Then on my turn I try to play a delver to check the top. It reveal terminus. Delver resolve and I waste his Tundra.
T3: I didn't find a land. On my turn, my delver flip, I try to resolve a spell, his counterbalance reveal jace and then he concede.
Game 2: I play on my turn Thoughseize and discarding him a sword. Then I play delver and a few turn later sulfur elemental joins him to beat my opponent to 0 life point.
1 - 1

Round 3: Infect
Game 1: I don't remember exactly the game, but It was quick. I drew 3 bolt, a snap and 2 wasteland. Good to my opponent to go through that.
Game 2: Bolt and Jitte did the job.
2 - 1

Round 4: Grixis Delver - Klara
Game 1: Don't remember the game well. My friend Gurmag Angler get there. I kill her Pyro with a bolt after she blocks with a token and it was pretty much it.
Game 2: Don't remember that game well too. It was little longer. I draw the one of surgical extraction and I surprised by removing all of her young pyromancer. After the match she told me, it wasn't good to side in Surgical. I like to put in one, because our mana curves is quite often too heavy to support our 3 drop spells against them. And it is quite good if you can get wasteland or one of their threat like young pyro, DS or Delver.
3 - 1

Round 5: BR Reanimator - Against my Pascal aka PDingo on the source
We saw the pairings, we said both! F***! THIS CAN'T BE REAL.
Game 1: He won. The deck is good at wining game 1.
Game 2: He had a slow start.
Game 3: I keep a hand with Pierce, Daze and Force. He had slow start and it was pretty much it.
4 -1

Round 6: Death & Taxes
I loose both game. I will write something about this later.
4 -2

Round 7: UR Delver - Petr, a nice Czech opponent
I loose game 1, I win game 2, I loose game 3. It is really a difficult match up.

Round 8: Casual Elf
I won both game without understanding what was the real kill. Snap + Bolt was there.

Round 9: BR Reanimator - Manuel, a nice german opponent
Game 1: He told me that he did a bad sequence that make him throwing away a dark ritual for nothing. He loose on the spot.
Game 2: A hand with deathrite, daze, Surgical and TS and 3 lands. He start by discarding my surgical. I TS him and saw a hand full of discard and a exhume. He try to discard, but I counter in order to protect my DS. Then I play my Deathrite and it was pretty much it.

I finish 6-3. I have a lot of thing to say, but I don't have much time. I may edit this post in the future in order to complete it. I want to write something to report something back.
Have fun!

[strom]

Hi,

I'd like to discuss four different matchups, I am having some trouble with.

This is my list and my sideboard with one open Slot for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths/Sylvan Lib
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental


1.) Infect
I have a hard time figuring out, which cards I should cut from the maindeck in postboard games. Should we bring in more countermagic or more creature hate? Then again, how do you feel about bringing in Pithing Needle for Inkmoth - is it necessary or is Wasteland + removalspells enough? Do you think it's worthwile to add Thoughtseizes or Flusterstorm?

My current approach postboard would be:
- 3 Spell Pierce (can't target creatures, so there are better alternatives)
- 2 Angler (too slow)
+ 2 Jitte (if it sticks, the game is basically over)
+ 2 Edict (I think its better to attack their creatures then their pumpsells. Thoughts?)
+ 1 Needle (for additional Inkmoth hate)

2.) Elves
I dont have any RL experiences with 4c Delver vs Elves so any input would be much appreciated.
Do you bring in Thoughtseize?

Out:
??
- 3 Spell Pierce

In:
+ 2 Jitte
??


3.) Burn and U/R Delver
I treat these decks more like combomatches since its important to fight their early pressure. If we can survive the early turns, chances get better for us.
I want to bring in Jitte but Jitte is rather slow to set up. Most pilots seem to cut Wastelands so my question is: Can we get away with bringing in two Jitte while siding out additional mana sources?

My Approach:
- 3 Wasteland
- 1 AD (I feel Aprupt Decay is a bit clunky here and I'd rather fight over the stack. Would you cut the fourth Wasteland instead?
+ 2 Fluster
+ 2 Jitte

4.) AggroLoam:
I havent played vs AggroLoam so my thoughts are only of theoretical nature.

I would bring in:
+ 2 Surgical
+ 2 Diabolic Edict

What would you cut here?

[diablo4488]

Hi,
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths/Sylvan Lib
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental

What would you cut here?

I think in general you SB is lacking a little bit of cheap removal (1CMC!).

1) I prefere to put in more removal and leave in Force+Daze for backup T2/T3 kill.
Pithing Needle is a must. So hard to beat for them.
Again like i said in the intro, AD is not a warranty because of Vines of Wastewood.
Always use your removal end of there turn or during your main phase (i'm sure you know that).

2) Again cheap removal helps by a lot. I prefere to board in Pithing Needle for stopping Wirewood Symbiote and kill the rest. Jitte is a house here obviously.

3) I would never cut the Wastelands in this matchup because it can save my life from POP.

4) Sounds fine. It's a very interesting matchup. I try to Force/Daze there T1 Mox often, it gives them everything they want, acceleration and fix the color. Always let DRS open to eat casted Punishing Fire or in response to Groove trigger. Surgicial does a nice job here also. You should have no problems with Lili because your playing SCM+Bolt.

Just my 50 cents.

[mosaic]

Played on MKM Series Prague as well, ended up 14th with 7-2-0
I shamelessly took Daniel Signorini's list, which I play for some time and I still find it very challenging and fun to play. (changes are only in sideboard) Sorry I took no notes and was tired anyway, 4 hours of sleep does not suffice me.
My matches were:

R1: Elves 0-2
R2: BUG delver (with Dark Confidants ie. not Team America) 2-0
R3: Eldrazi 1-2 (nice start 1-2-0)
R4: Infect 2-1
R5: UB Reanimator 2-0
R6: Punishing Jund 2-1
R7: Storm 2-1
R8: Sneak Show (with 3 Blood Moons in main) 2-1
R9: Eldrazi 2-0

Decklist for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Ponder

2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Life from the Loam
1 Winter Orb


Did not know that AfroSmile was there, and actually did not met him. Perhaps next time I will try to make up for it.

[AfroSmile]

Did not know that AfroSmile was there, and actually did not met him. Perhaps next time I will try to make up for it.
If somebody is going to a big event, write here and we can do a burg meeting! Would be nice to see other burg player!

This weekend I've played at the Swiss Legacy Cup. 7 Round of Swiss with the same list as the MKM Prague.
I will complete my last report and write a small one about the SLC.
I went 4-1, then I lost the two last game. :'(
(Lost against: Lands, Merfolks and Infect.)

I didn't post last time the decklist:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umewaza Jitte
1 Painful Truth
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Dread of Night

I'm unsure about the sideboard and sometimes it happens that you get 2 Gurmag in hand.
With Snapcaster Mage and Deathrite Shaman, this is quite a painful situation depending on the graveyard situation.

[Manipulato]

If somebody is going to a big event, write here and we can do a burg meeting! Would be nice to see other burg player!

This weekend I've played at the Swiss Legacy Cup. 7 Round of Swiss with the same list as the MKM Prague.
I will complete my last report and write a small one about the SLC.
I went 4-1, then I lost the two last game. :'(
(Lost against: Lands, Merfolks and Infect.)

I didn't post last time the decklist:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umewaza Jitte
1 Painful Truth
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Dread of Night

I'm unsure about the sideboard and sometimes it happens that you get 2 Gurmag in hand.
With Snapcaster Mage and Deathrite Shaman, this is quite a painful situation depending on the graveyard situation.

Hey Elie,
well, wasnt your day I think :rolleyes:

I´m looking forward to read your more detailed report and your impressions from the Friedmann list. Would be interesting to hear what you would change and what impressions you had. I personally dont like 2 TS + 2 Flusterstorm in the SB, I think it´s a overload on disruption vs combo...Your SB is also very weak vs Elves or Maverick for example because your hate is really focused on DnT...

I will play a bigger tournament in Voralberg Austria this Sunday and will give this list a try:


15 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
2 Electrickery
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dread of Night
1 Ancient Grudge

FoW Count -> 25
Delver Count -> 26

I´m not 100% sold on this list and I´m not sure if this is "better" than the current Friedmann list but I like it so far. Tarmogoyf just comes down earlier than Angler which is really important vs Infect, Eldrazi, burn or combo MU´s in general. SCM was great so far and that´s the reason I still run 2 copies along with 2 TNN.
I found the 3rd SCM and the 2 Angler quite slow and clunky sometimes and I really miss the aggression sometimes to close the game.
The Badlands is a test but having a 3rd black source + the ability to produce all 4 Colors off 2 duals (Tropical+Badlands) is quite nice. In this list Volcanic Island is by far the last dual I fetch just because red is only needed for bolt.
If I would expect alot of Miracles in the room I would probably cut the 2 TS MD and would replace them with 2 Pierces just because TS is not very strong vs them but I´m sure there will be only 1-2 Miracles around.

I also really like 2 TS in the MD just because they´re more solid vs DnT, Elves, Eldrazi...The only Thing I miss are 2 Golgari Charm in the SB but with 2 TNN + 2 SCM it´s really not optimal and more of a doublesided sword...I replaced them with 2 Electrickery which are better vs Elves and Grixis Delver (YP+Token, Strix, Unflipped Delver) and still ok vs DnT.
We will see how things work out on Sunday, will Keep you guys updated.

Keep on bUrgin :smile:

[WThomas]

Hi Guys –

I’ve read the last 10 or so pages and was wondering why I universally see burg lists run only 3 AD, what’s the reasoning behind this, isn’t this our most important card in a lot of MU’s?

Also what are peoples thoughts on 2 Angler’s vs 3 goyfs? I’ve found the angler versions taxes the GY a little too much and that goyf can come down a turn earlier and add pressure quickly to the board.

Cheers!

[theMonster]

I'd say three Decays have become standard mostly because of the color requirements, relative clunkiness (when compared to Lightning Bolt), and the fact that Decay can't deal direct damage to the opponent. Also, with Snapcaster Mages, you have access to a potential 5-6 Decays, which should be sufficient in most matches.

I've preferred Angler because it is easier on the colored mana than Goyf (since the only other green spells would be the Decays) and cannot be tagged by opposing Decays; however, I've been testing a singleton Leovold (which has been really good for me except against Eldrazi) in place of the third Snapcaster, thereby increasing my green requirements and making me consider the 3 Goyf + 3 Trop/Badlands configuration. The way the games play out for me, though, are more controlling than those with other Delver variants, so Angler coming down a turn or so later hasn't bothered me much.

Also, bUrgers, recently Friedman posted about his GP experience (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12022016-all-around-the-world/) and is inclined to test four True-Names alongside two Snaps and two Anglers. How do you feel about this? Six three-drops in the maindeck (if you include Snapcasters) seems like an awful lot, pushing 20-land territory even. 16 creatures makes Delver flip less often, too. TNN has certainly over-performed for me, making me consider running a third copy in the sideboard or something. But four maindeck? Seems like a lot.

[WThomas]

I'd say three Decays have become standard mostly because of the color requirements, relative clunkiness (when compared to Lightning Bolt), and the fact that Decay can't deal direct damage to the opponent. Also, with Snapcaster Mages, you have access to a potential 5-6 Decays, which should be sufficient in most matches.

I've preferred Angler because it is easier on the colored mana than Goyf (since the only other green spells would be the Decays) and cannot be tagged by opposing Decays; however, I've been testing a singleton Leovold (which has been really good for me except against Eldrazi) in place of the third Snapcaster, thereby increasing my green requirements and making me consider the 3 Goyf + 3 Trop/Badlands configuration. The way the games play out for me, though, are more controlling than those with other Delver variants, so Angler coming down a turn or so later hasn't bothered me much.

Thanks for the feed back Monster, appreciate it, I run only the two SCM but can certainly see your point.

Has the Leovold been that good? I'm interested in him but have yet to test, he seems to be a mixed bag on here. Hopefully the more people test the more concinsious we gain.

I'm certainly leaning more towards the "greener" build.


Also, bUrgers, recently Friedman posted about his GP experience (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12022016-all-around-the-world/) and is inclined to test four True-Names alongside two Snaps and two Anglers. How do you feel about this? Six three-drops in the maindeck (if you include Snapcasters) seems like an awful lot, pushing 20-land territory even. 16 creatures makes Delver flip less often, too. TNN has certainly over-performed for me, making me consider running a third copy in the sideboard or something. But four maindeck? Seems like a lot.

I've tested 3 TNN and found it to be amazing, but that was in the Angler build.

[MXG]

I've played two leagues with a more TNN-heavy build, 4-1ing both (both starting 8-0 in games, and then falling apart). Played against a wide range of things. Lost to UR Delver and Elves, both of which feel very hard for me to beat (Although I somehow managed to beat Julian one round).

The approach i'm taking is slightly different than Friedman. While I completely agree that TNN is insane, instead of just upping the land count and playing infi 3 drops, I configured the deck to better "bridge the gap" between 1 and 3. Doing this meant playing 3 Stifles, both to protect our own manabase, as well as all the other sweet things Stifle does. I also shaved one Daze, since this deck, more than other Delver builds, really doesn't want to see multiples, but the first is usually good. I agree that Thoughtseize main seems great, especially since you can use them to get rid of whatever they can use to answer TNN before slamming one down. I also play 2 Baleful Strix, still, as another way to bridge the gap and smooth out an otherwise clunky deck. I'm still playing 1 Gurmag because the first Delve card is free, and 1 Leovold because he is just gasoline. Look at the artwork. He knows it's over. He's offering your opponent the handshake.

Without further ado, here's the list:

19 Land:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

15 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

26 Inst/Sorc:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Painful Truths
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sudden Demise (Not sure on what sweeper this should be. Maybe Grim Lavamancer or Forked Bolt)
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Hydroblast

[Manipulato]

I'd say three Decays have become standard mostly because of the color requirements, relative clunkiness (when compared to Lightning Bolt), and the fact that Decay can't deal direct damage to the opponent. Also, with Snapcaster Mages, you have access to a potential 5-6 Decays, which should be sufficient in most matches.

I've preferred Angler because it is easier on the colored mana than Goyf (since the only other green spells would be the Decays) and cannot be tagged by opposing Decays; however, I've been testing a singleton Leovold (which has been really good for me except against Eldrazi) in place of the third Snapcaster, thereby increasing my green requirements and making me consider the 3 Goyf + 3 Trop/Badlands configuration. The way the games play out for me, though, are more controlling than those with other Delver variants, so Angler coming down a turn or so later hasn't bothered me much.

Also, bUrgers, recently Friedman posted about his GP experience (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12022016-all-around-the-world/) and is inclined to test four True-Names alongside two Snaps and two Anglers. How do you feel about this? Six three-drops in the maindeck (if you include Snapcasters) seems like an awful lot, pushing 20-land territory even. 16 creatures makes Delver flip less often, too. TNN has certainly over-performed for me, making me consider running a third copy in the sideboard or something. But four maindeck? Seems like a lot.

About the new Friedman list...In his last Goyfless build I would replace the 3rd SCM with the 3rd TNN (I already did that in this version) just because he´s a beating vs DnT and Miracles. It also lowers the problematic situations between SCM and Angler and you have less dead SCM draws sitting in hand. But I think 4 TNN and 2 SCM with only 19 lands are too much especially with 1 Taiga/Badlands! Way too much clunky draws and a too high risk of getting wastelanded out of the game for my taste. If you really want to play 4 TNN just cut the 2 SCM. If he thinks that Grixis Delver is still a good MU with 6 cc3 creatures and 19 lands he lives in candy wonderland, you make the Wastelands and Dazes sooo much better for your oponent then, also cabal therapy. Diabolic Edict is just good vs Angler (Grixis Delver) and Mother of Runes (DnT) IF those are the only creatures on board which is not often the case, I really thought about 2 Edict in my SB mainly for Marit Large Tokens and Eldrazi but then I´m still weak to Angler. I tryed Edict in the past but my oponent just sacrificed his weakest creature on board instead of the goodie/fatty, 2 mana is also quite clunky. Eldrazi for example just sacrificed Mimic, Reshaper or Endless One instead of TKS/Smasher which sucked. But it´s playable.

He now made the cut with removing the pierces from the MD which I thought about long ago just because they´re underperformed every tournament, putting them in the SB or making a split between Pierce/TS in the MD is ok just because they´re still needed but 3 copies in main are too much in my opinion.

[eldub]

Headed to a GPT on Sunday and conducted another large set of testing yesterday. Sadly, I think I'm done with Snapcaster in a Gurmag/DRS shell. It's expensive and at odds with the premier threats in the deck, as much as I love the versatility (Who doesn't love Snapcaster Mage?). Added a TNN and a Clique in those spots for now -- I'm happy with 14 threats for the time being and these seemed like the highest impact.

I've been impressed by Thoughtseize main to clear the way for TNN in the relevant matchups. It also keeps my spell count at 27 for Delver where others on here are playing cards like Leovold. Spell Pierce simply wasn't carrying it's weight, especially in multiples.

Land (19)
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (6)
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

Instant (21)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce

Creature (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Sideboard
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Dismember
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Flusterstorm
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Sulfur Elemental
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Umezawa's Jitte

The SB got a bit of a re-work after wanting more outs to Eldrazi/Emrakul/Marit Lage/Reanimator. We'll see how well the Ensnaring Bridge + Edict package works out. Still up in the air on those. Engineered Explosives is back in the mix for me as the most flexible answer to troublesome permanents. I also quite like EE on 2 since I'm not playing any 2CMC threats in the deck.

Any comments welcome, I'll hopefully have some feedback on the 75 after Sunday's GPT.

[theMonster]

Interesting lists, eldub and MXG. Both of you eschewed Snapcaster. Do you guys think that the - in my case - paper metagame warrants that choice? I went down from 3 copies to 2, and now I'm considering playing a single one just for the surprise factor.

Playing a 6- or 7-round local on Sunday. My meta notoriously contains a lot of DnT, so I'd want to skew my build towards beating that deck. So, with DnT in mind, I have a couple questions:

- How good/bad is Stifle against them? It seems with Recruiter of the Guard in the mix, they have more triggers worth Stifling. And in a fair meta, I'd imagine Stifle to be good against most of the room (except Eldrazi).

- 3 TNNs seems like a certainty, but beyond that, I'm unsure about my creature suite. Leovold seems good against Port/Wasteland, but is it good enough against the field to merit a maindeck inclusion?

I'm considering a list like this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Marsh Casualties/Electrickery/Sudden Demise
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember/Go for the Throat
1 Ancient Grudge/Kolaghan’s Command
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Painful Truths

Haven't tested this configuration, so I don't know how it performs. Grudge is probably better than K-Command in this list because of only one Snapcaster. And I'm never sure which sweeper to play. With DnT my focus, I'd assume the -1/-1 of sorcery-speed Casualties is still better than a more efficient spell like Electrickery, but I don't know.

Things I'm considering:

- Shaving a Daze like MXG for the reasons he mentioned. But what to replace it with? Maybe an eighth removal spell? Something like Spell Snare?
- Playing Stifles due to a typically fair local meta. I'd probably have to shave a 3-drop creature, though - most likely Snapcaster.
- Taiga/Badlands. The :u::u: to cast the third TNN makes me apprehensive about that, though.
- Playing a 16th creature in the sideboard for when TNN or Angler is bad. Most likely a Clique.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Stevestamopz]

T4'd a small sanctioned today with this:

//Creature (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (23)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

//Land (19)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte

I lost to DnT in the semis. I have no idea how you're supposed to win against that deck with BURG because as you can see, I have many many cards for them.

[atopebenidorm]

You must try golgari charm.

In other hand I will try 4 Leovold main. I think is the solution vs 90% of the metagame. Vs Eldrazi I love diabolic edict + lightning bolt + dismember + snapcaster.

4 delver
4 deathrite shaman
4 Leovold
2 Snapcaster
2 Gurmag or Tarmo.

[MXG]

Interesting lists, eldub and MXG. Both of you eschewed Snapcaster. Do you guys think that the - in my case - paper metagame warrants that choice? I went down from 3 copies to 2, and now I'm considering playing a single one just for the surprise factor.

Playing a 6- or 7-round local on Sunday. My meta notoriously contains a lot of DnT, so I'd want to skew my build towards beating that deck. So, with DnT in mind, I have a couple questions:

Judging by our location flairs, we all have the same local meta :P. Good luck at Knight Ware to both of you, and I'll see you there!



- How good/bad is Stifle against them? It seems with Recruiter of the Guard in the mix, they have more triggers worth Stifling. And in a fair meta, I'd imagine Stifle to be good against most of the room (except Eldrazi).

Stifle is okay against DnT. It won't be quite as backbreaking as it is against, say, Shardless, but it's certainly a playable card that will do useful things. Keep in mind that you can Stifle either half of a Flickerwisp Trigger. If they target something you want to keep around, you can Stifle the initial trigger. If they target one of their own cards to extract Hashtag Value, you can Stifle the delayed "return to battlefield at beginning of next end step" trigger to leave it in exile forever.



- 3 TNNs seems like a certainty, but beyond that, I'm unsure about my creature suite. Leovold seems good against Port/Wasteland, but is it good enough against the field to merit a maindeck inclusion?

I've been playing it in our Local meta and online to relative success (~75% winrate on MTGO competitive leagues over 100 matches), and Jarvis/Ben have fallen in love with it too. I would wholeheartedly say to run it, but since we're both going to be at Knight Ware and possibly across the table from each other, I'll say don't run it if you don't want to. No one's forcing you.


Haven't tested this configuration, so I don't know how it performs. Grudge is probably better than K-Command in this list because of only one Snapcaster. And I'm never sure which sweeper to play. With DnT my focus, I'd assume the -1/-1 of sorcery-speed Casualties is still better than a more efficient spell like Electrickery, but I don't know.

Part of me doesn't want to give away this sweet really old tech, but try Grim Lavamancer. If you shave some of the GY-reliant MD creatures (1 Delve spell is still fine), you can afford it, and he's really good right now.



Things I'm considering:

- Taiga/Badlands. The :u::u: to cast the third TNN makes me apprehensive about that, though.

Only play Taiga/Badlands as your 20th land. If you're playing 19, it's just going to end up hurting you. If you play 20, it's probably right to play. I would recommend Badlands. It's a good land.

[WThomas]

T4'd a small sanctioned today with this:

//Creature (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (23)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

//Land (19)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte

I lost to DnT in the semis. I have no idea how you're supposed to win against that deck with BURG because as you can see, I have many many cards for them.

How did you find the snaps, along with the pierces and snare?

[Stevestamopz]

How did you find the snaps, along with the pierces and snare?

I previously played 1 Snapcaster and it was great so I played 2. Bolt-Snap-Bolt is fantastic in the delver mirror, and also seems ok against DnT (assuming your whole deck doesn't get locked out on Turn 3). On this topic of Sanctum Prelate, maybe we need to play stuff like Grim Lavamancer to get through it. Hmm.

Pierces are fine. They're not exciting but they're a necessary evil against combo and snare is fucking busted and I wish I could play more. I was playing 2 Snare 2 Pierce when I played only 1 Snapcaster but cuts had to be made and I never ever want to lose to Show and Tell so Pierce > Snare.

[Manipulato]

Hey bUrgers,

today I played a 34 man turney in Voralberg Austria with the Tarmogoyf build to a sadly 4:2 in 9th place :rolleyes:

Round 1: Eldrazi Lost 1:2
G3 was a slaughter fest. A lonely Mimic killed me from 8 to zero in 4 turns because I was not able to draw a creature. In my last turn I drew Tarmogoyf but he wasted my my 2 Tropical earlier and left me with USea + Badlands. He had only 1 Tomb remaining as his only land on 4 life + Chalice & Thorn of Amethyst in play.

Round 2: Goblin Stompy Won 2:0
Clear and easy win, TNN & Goyf were really good here, FoW for Chalice G1 and Bolt for Magus took it away. Ancient Grudge were the Allstar and took care of Chalice + Trinisphere in G2.

Round 3: BR Stuff Won 2:0
Random junk pile, Thoughtseize snagged a Tombstalker here which Spell Pierce wouldn't. TNN was also better than Goyf becasue of his heavy removal suite.

Round 4: Dark Maverick Lost 1:2
G1 I resolved a T3 TNN and then I flooded hard even after a brainstorm becasue it showed me Land, Land, FoW. I won a close G2 after my Goyf was eaten by Ooze + double Shaman but TNN got there again. Then I kept a STUPID hand on the draw with Delver, Delver, Bolt, Bolt, Fetch, TNN, Cut on the draw in G3, which was just wrong. I drew a 2nd land 2-3 turns later but he meanwhile resolved Knight which killed all my lands + my Delvers never flipped.
Definitely should have mulled this hand but I lived in candy wonderland where the sun is always shining.

Round 5: 4c Pyromancer Won 2:1
Game 1 he was screwed & Daze on both Shaman +Wasteland on his dual took care of his manabase. Game 2 TNN won him the game. Game 3 TNN + a fast Delver won me the game.

Round 6: Burn Won 2:1
Goyf was a important fast clock in all games, I was able to counter both PoP in G3 with FoW & Flusterstorm which sealed the deal.


I had really strange draws today with many floods or screws or games where I only drew 2 Shamans as my only creatures, TS never showed up even as a 2off, Delver starts were also rare...The deck was not my friend today but I also misplayed here and there.

My list was:

15 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
2 Electrickery
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dread of Night
1 Ancient Grudge

FoW Count 25
Delver Count 26

The Badlands cost me a game vs Maverick and it feels a bit dangerous when you stuck on 2 lands, Daze becomes worse also.
Goyf was shitty vs Maverick and only ok vs Eldrazi (4/5 died to Dismember) but great vs burn & Goblin Stompy for example.
I only drew TS 2 times, cant say much about it.

[redtwister]

Running this quite successfully recently. Made 1st/2nd in last 4 local events (small tournament size, but lots of good players, including but not limited to Paul Lynch.)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Baleful Strix
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Painful Truths

I am afraid to run Leovold because of how awkward he is to cast, needing three colors. However, I did play against him in a Dark Maverick deck and sat there for about 6 turns with a very, very dead Brainstorm in hand. The card is super powerful, essentially a completely one-sided Spirit of the Labyrinth with 3 toughness and an awkward mana cost. Otherwise, very happy with the main.

Don't know about the sideboard. 2 K-Command might be too much and Flusterstorm continues to underperform, but the rest was very nice. Sylvan Library is the truth in some matches.

[Manipulato]

@ MXG, Eldub & the Monster: You guys had a turney on Sunday if I remember correctly, how did you guys perform? Feedback would be great.

Greetings

[MXG]

@ MXG, Eldub & the Monster: You guys had a turney on Sunday if I remember correctly, how did you guys perform? Feedback would be great.

Greetings

I actually played Mentor Miracles w/ 3 Daze, mostly to prove a point about Daze in Mentor Miracles allowing you to tap out to play your CB or Mentor and not have give the "opening" that plays like that traditionally create as miracles. I ended up going 4-2, losing to Soldier Stompy and Eldrazi, while beating Infect, Elves, and 2x DnT.

If I were going to Louisville, I would have played Delver in a heartbeat to get those byes.

With regard to my most recent delver list, I've played 5 MTGO leagues with the build, linked below. The first 4 went 4-1, then I got a 5-0, which brings the overall winrate to 84% with it. I wholeheartedly recommend it, maybe splitting 1 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Sudden Demise in that slot. Grim encourages Elves & DnT to overextend, and then Sudden Demise punishes that in a huge way. Also, it's worth noting you can resolve both of these cards through a Sanctum Prelate.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/527337#online

[eldub]

@ MXG, Eldub & the Monster: You guys had a turney on Sunday if I remember correctly, how did you guys perform? Feedback would be great.

Greetings
Unfortunately my morning got hijacked by my gf and I was unable to make the GPT in time. Still itching to play my latest 4C brew. The only thing I’m considering adjusting from my list above is 2x Stifle in lieu of Spell Pierce but I’m not sure when my next opportunity to play will be locally. I ordered 2x Leovold to test with, he may prove more universal than the Clique main but I need to test him.

MXG -- I take it you're still recommending a 3/3 Daze/Stifle split?

[MXG]

MXG -- I take it you're still recommending a 3/3 Daze/Stifle split?

I'm liking 3 Daze, and I'm liking 3 Stifle, but I don't really consider them a split. The 4 Bolt/2 Decay is definitely a split, under the category of "removal", but Stifle and Daze are occupying different roles in the deck.

I shaved from 4 Daze to 3 due to how much I disliked drawing multiples in this build due to how I wanted to quickly be able to get to 3 mana available, and then use Daze to protect that threat.

The 3 Stifle are more of a way to help support two angles: keeping your manabase intact against opposing wastelands, and as a way to use your early turns effectively to play the mana-denial game in tandem with your own wasteland in the turns before the 3 drops are online. If I were to not play Stifle, I would probably play a 20th land, a third Thoughtseize, and a third Abrupt Decay.

[eldub]

I'm liking 3 Daze, and I'm liking 3 Stifle, but I don't really consider them a split. The 4 Bolt/2 Decay is definitely a split, under the category of "removal", but Stifle and Daze are occupying different roles in the deck.

I shaved from 4 Daze to 3 due to how much I disliked drawing multiples in this build due to how I wanted to quickly be able to get to 3 mana available, and then use Daze to protect that threat.

The 3 Stifle are more of a way to help support two angles: keeping your manabase intact against opposing wastelands, and as a way to use your early turns effectively to play the mana-denial game in tandem with your own wasteland in the turns before the 3 drops are online. If I were to not play Stifle, I would probably play a 20th land, a third Thoughtseize, and a third Abrupt Decay.
Appreciate the quick response, makes sense to me. I may test with a similar configuration when I get an opportunity. Holding up Stifle in this build may work quite well considering we don't have any 2-drops to tap out for.

[redtwister]

@MXG
Why drop Snapcaster Mage in place of Baleful Strix? Here is what I see.

Strix Advantages:
1. Strix is easier to cast for value at UB than SMwith a spell, since SM, which will often cost 3 colors and up to 4 mana (UR1 for SM/Bolt, UBG1 for SM/Decay).
2. Strix is a better blocker.
3. Strix is draw.
4. With TNN (and possibly Leovold), 3+ mana is already tight.
5. SM uses cards in the graveyard that could be used for Gurmag Angler or, in your build, Grim Lavamancer.

Strix Disadvantages:
1. Doesn't give extra castings of cards (this is, of course, pretty huge.)
2. No flash.
3. 1/1, not 2/1.
4. UB, no U1.

Also, any notes on the Eldrazi and Soldier Stompy matches?

[MXG]

@MXG
Why drop Snapcaster Mage in place of Baleful Strix? Here is what I see.

Strix Advantages:
1. Strix is easier to cast for value at UB than SMwith a spell, since SM, which will often cost 3 colors and up to 4 mana (UR1 for SM/Bolt, UBG1 for SM/Decay).
2. Strix is a better blocker.
3. Strix is draw.
4. With TNN (and possibly Leovold), 3+ mana is already tight.
5. SM uses cards in the graveyard that could be used for Gurmag Angler or, in your build, Grim Lavamancer.

Strix Disadvantages:
1. Doesn't give extra castings of cards (this is, of course, pretty huge.)
2. No flash.
3. 1/1, not 2/1.
4. UB, no U1.


Good question. Your Strix advantages are exactly why I'm playing the bird. Basically, Snapcaster is a "payoff" card while Strix is way to help get you to the payoff cards. This deck's "payoff" cards, especially when you go True-Name and Leovold heavy, are so strong, that all you really need is to get there, which Baleful Strix helps facilitate.

With regard to Strix's disadvantages, I like to think of Strix's card draw as a way of both increasing your virtual spell density and land density. The land density is especially important because I really want this deck to have a virtual 20 lands, while only playing 19. Strix and Stifle both help with this. Of course, Snapcaster does this too by flashing back Ponders and Brainstorms, but only can do so once you have 3 mana already online.

On the casting cost of Strix, I think of the deck as base UB anyway, so this shouldn't be a big deal.


Also, any notes on the Eldrazi and Soldier Stompy matches?

Well, I was playing Mentor Miracles, not this deck, so keep that in mind :)

Against Soldier Stompy, I lost G1 to a Turn 1 Chalice, followed by a Suppression Field, followed by a Cavern'd Soldier Ringleader. Game 2 I Dazed a Turn 2 Chalice and Mentor ran away with the game. Monks > Soldiers. Game 3, I kept a hand that had 4 cantrips, 2 fetch lands, and an EE. My opponent led T1 Thalia into T2 Chalice, meaning I couldn't EE on 0. The game just kind of fell apart from there as I floundered until I died. I probably should have mulled that hand game 3, since it would have also lost to an early Suppression Field.

Eldrazi, honestly, I think I just got nut drawn. Game 1, on the play, my opponent went Eye Mimic Mimic Endless one for 2, and then I had to Force his turn 2 TKS, then died shortly after he resolved some fatty which I don't remember. Game 2, he had a slower draw, but it was all Caverned TKS and Reality Smashers. I just couldn't get anything going in time. I also drew all 4 Mentors, (kept 1 opening hand, then drew 3 more) which would have been great except it meant that my hand was entirely 3 mana 2/2s.

[Stevestamopz]

If you have ever thought about trying Dark Confidant instead of Snapcaster Mage... don't. It was terrible.

[Manipulato]

If you have ever thought about trying Dark Confidant instead of Snapcaster Mage... don't. It was terrible.

I played him as a 2off for a couple of month in my 4c Delver shell and he was great, cant confirm that. I know a other italian player who plays him as a 3off and he also really like him.

[ORDAL]

I played him as a 2off for a couple of month in my 4c Delver shell and he was great, cant confirm that. I know a other italian player who plays him as a 3off and he also really like him.

I think is right time for bob, im italian player and se tester it, i make 5-0 with 4c and bob 10 december on mtgo

Decklist here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/526110#online

Any question is welcome