Blood Moon Rising

[Barook]

It already has been a subtle trend on MODO, but I think after the Top 2 in the latest SCG open, we're going to see more of it from now on: Imperial Painter (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58814)

It's appearently way more consistent than many people thought, it can have a fast clock and the T1 Bloodmoon effect that is a blowout against many (fair) decks with greedy manabases shows up more often than you think.

Are we going to see a metagame shift? DRS is currently everywhere and he has a hard time producing mana when he's starved of fetchlands.

What do you think?

[MightyPenguin007]

While I do think that Imperial Painter may show up more often now, I think that within 2 to 3 months' time the meta will shift back once more. I have only recently started to take a look at many of the SCG Open results, and by that I mean within the last 1 1/2 years. I can recall watching some of the Open Series from January - March of 2012 and seeing a good deal of Stoneblade and a ton of Maverick decks. After that, I began to notice a prominent rise in RUG Delver. Following that it appeared that High Tide came into favor, then Shardless BUG, then Punishing Jund, then ANT and TES. The meta rotates. With the rise of "unfair" decks, Maverick fell off the map. This deck rose up to fill a void, namely to prey upon decks with greedy manabases - as you pointed out.

I'm not stating that this deck is a flash in the pan, it's obviously very good to finish first one week and then follow that up with a second place finish. What I'm simply stating is that the meta is very cyclical, meaning that once people figure out a niche to take advantage of the weaknesses of Imperial Painter, we will again see a meta shift. That's the most interesting part of Legacy for me, those 4 to 6 cards that get tacked onto the shell of an existing deck that help it push through a given meta.

My analysis isn't perfect, and I may have messed up the order of the archetypes in my first paragraph, but I think it serves the point rather well. Decks come and go, then come back again.

[Tao]

Agree with OP. So many decks are cold to a T1 Moon, especially on the draw. The Through the Breach / Sneak Attack version is also a good deck but currently the MD Red Blasts are too good to pass. Still a Meta deck though, you don't want to run into Burn or Elves with Basic Forests or Pox.

[Megadeus]

I agree with the second poster. Soon the meta will shift again and decks that have heavy basic counts will rise up. People will stop being so greedy.

[bjholmes3]

I also agree. Large-scale tournaments are really just popularity contests. Whatever wins the most becomes the deck that everyone else prepares to beat. Assuming they are successful, suddenly their deck becomes the best, and other decks start being tweaked to beat them.

In other words, once Rock Lobster starts winning tournaments, people start running Paper Tiger. Once he starts beating Rock Lobster, we start seeing an uprising in Scissors Lizard. Does that make sense?

The true test of the Painterstone deck will depend on whether or not it can survive a full meta-rotation and come back on top at some point.

[FTW]

In other words, once Rock Lobster starts winning tournaments, people start running Scissors Lizard. Once he starts beating Rock Lobster, we start seeing an uprising in Paper Tiger. Does that make sense?

No, that makes no sense. Scissors never beats Rock. People who bring Scissors Lizard would go 0-2 drop and get shame-hated out of MTG.

[bjholmes3]

Omg, lol. Nice typo on my end.

[HammafistRoob]

LOL! The meta isn't going to shift towards Imperial Painter hate decks because there will never be more than ten of these decks in a tournament. Meta shifts only happen when one archetype takes up a significant part of the meta, and with the price of Recruiters where it's at right now, I don't see that happening.

[Fatal]

Sure but there are also other Moon decks:
Dragon Stompy, Big Red (Mono R Sneak)

Also why they're can't be more Imperial Painter - because of the prize of recruiters ? Promo ones are for 80 euro which isn't much compare to duals + fetches + FoWs, actually Imperial Painter is one of the cheapest deck in legacy which can be competitive except Recruiters, grindstones and Sensei it is dirty cheap so cost aren't the barrier.

[Barook]

Sure but there are also other Moon decks:
Dragon Stompy, Big Red (Mono R Sneak)

Also why they're can't be more Imperial Painter - because of the prize of recruiters ? Promo ones are for 80 euro which isn't much compare to duals + fetches + FoWs, actually Imperial Painter is one of the cheapest deck in legacy which can be competitive except Recruiters, grindstones and Sensei it is dirty cheap so cost aren't the barrier.
Promo Recruiters are doable, but as far as the rest of deck is concerned - most of the deck's cards are junk outside of it, so if you want to buy in, you don't acquire many staples you can use for other decks, unlike fetches + duals.

[alphacat]

I don't think the meta itself will shift just for moon decks. However, I feel like most decks will just account for them. The easiest thing to do imo is just that people will start packing more basics.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think the meta itself will shift just for moon decks. However, I feel like most decks will just account for them. The easiest thing to do imo is just that people will start packing more basics.

Or start playing Nature's Claim or Wear/Tear or whatever it's called.

[Dice_Box]

I play Painter at my Local store and I can say it is far from hard to hate out. The issue is that everyone hates the deck because its such a hard deck to play against if you're not packing basics. Something that is easy to fix.

The thing about Moon is that right now it only has two common shells. One is Stompy, the other Painter. If people want to play Moon they will normally pick one of these two decks. Stompy is fun but it's all in nature makes Mulling it and playing though hate a nightmare. Painter has an level of interaction only normally seen in Blue control so those with a background in control decks can play it with only a few dozen games under their belt. This puts the deck in the spotlight, a place I do not expect it will stay. A shift away from greedy bases towards older, simpler decks along with a short rise of Goblins with their Mana control and tax control like DnT's means I can see shifting the Meta back to more of a pre DRS style. Then things will shift again, we will see this happen again... It's how the game works.

Really this is just a natural example of people running the best deck to hate out 80% of the Meta.


Or start playing Nature's Claim or Wear/Tear or whatever it's called.
Remember, once Painter is on the table you can counter things. If this is to be your chosen card, you need to make sure you have the option to play it pre turn 3. Because its not uncommon with a pseudo 8 Painters to have one out by then. Often with protection.

[Koby]

Remember, once Painter is on the table you can counter things. If this is to be your chosen card, you need to make sure you have the option to play it pre turn 3. Because its not uncommon with a pseudo 8 Painters to have one out by then. Often with protection.

My favorite is just to play Painter then Vindicate any problem cards. This is what makes Painter decks so attractive in fighting most hate cards.

[Grollub]

In other words, once Rock Lobster starts winning tournaments, people start running Scissors Lizard. Once he starts beating Rock Lobster, we start seeing an uprising in Paper Tiger. Does that make sense?
No, that makes no sense. Scissors never beats Rock. People who bring Scissors Lizard would go 0-2 drop and get shame-hated out of MTG.

Typo be damned, these are the greatest two posts in a long time. :D

[Kap'n Cook]

I posted this in the painter thread briefly but it warrants posting here too. The issue isn't hating out painter it's that finally people will learn how to play against it. For example: I watched Suarez vs reanimator on scglive. The player didn't fetch a basic and got punished in game 3 I also think Suarez never should have played painter turn 1 without help as Iona would've been gg but that's besides the point. Free wins will be harder to come by so the natural progression of actually needing to learn how to play a longer game will be the norm.

[twndomn]

Bottom line is that the more people play Shardless BUG, the better it is for painter stone. Shardless BUG can't counter every single Moon, Magus, and Painter. Some of them will go through, even after turn 1. Shardless BUG eventually have to spend some SB spaces, if Painter gets more popular.

[iamajellydonut]

Bottom line is that the more people play Shardless BUG, the better it is for painter stone. Shardless BUG can't counter every single Moon, Magus, and Painter. Some of them will go through, even after turn 1. Shardless BUG eventually have to spend some SB spaces, if Painter gets more popular.

BUG doesn't need to counter everything. Many/most BUG variants and everything else in Legacy and indeed Shardless variants are running with complete non-basics. Not because the color fixing is utterly required, but because there was previously little reason not to. If BUG tosses in 3 basics, they're, relatively speaking, set. Not to mention that a great majority of Shardless's strength is its overbearing card advantage and its all-seeing disruption suite. So, yes, Shardless will eventually run itself dry of its "counterspells" (3-4 Force of Will.), but it still retains the ability to shit on anything that Painter-Stone sans-Moon can throw out.

Painter-Stone is not the issue. Blood Moon is not even the issue. It's that deckbuilders have grown complacent and two players have managed to get lucky off the back of this ignorance.

[Dice_Box]

I would not say they got lucky, good choice is not luck. They picked a deck made to hate the situation that we have found ourselves in and pilot it to wins. That's smart planing and playing, don't put it down to luck.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[iamajellydonut]

I would not say they got lucky, good choice is not luck. They picked a deck made to hate the situation that we have found ourselves in and pilot it to wins. That's smart planing and playing, don't put it down to luck.

No player rides a > 200 person event solely based on luck. However, luck still is an element prevalent in all of Magic from sealed pools to land screws. That they played a deck that made full use of Blood Moon is smart. That they won has an exceptional element of luck. Very few "tournament viable" (and I use that term loosely) flat out lose to things. They can have good matchups and they can have bad matchups, but no deck should walk into a game, see the turn 1 play, and be inclined to throw their cards while making a "WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP" noise kin to Zoidberg. Unfortunately, that's what the mono-red incarnation of Painter-Stone does. There's a few decks in the current Legacy meta and a few more coinflips like Burn and even Belcher that Painter-Stone just flat out loses to unless the opponent draws sixteen Bayous in a row. Combine those auto-losses with the natural losses expected in fair match-ups, and yes, it is indeed lucky that those two gentlemen won with Painter-Stone.

[Asthereal]

The true test of the Painterstone deck will depend on whether or not Imperial Recruiter gets a reprint as an uncommon in the next large expansion.
Fixed that for you. :wink:
Seriously, Recruiters are so expensive and rare that this deck can never become Deck to Beat, simply because as soon as Imperial Painter becomes really popular, Recruiters will go up from the rediculous price they are at right now to an astronomically high price that even Bill Gates would be reluctant to buy them for. There just aren't enough Recruiters around.

[Dice_Box]

Painter can turn 1 combo. Turn 2 is more common and not a pipe dream. Fact turn 2 and 3 wins are something that happens more often than you think. By turn 3 you can normally interact with anything and should be halfway to your win. Mono Red is not an easy win but its hardly a fold. Fact is most Mono red decks are more susceptible to the decks combo than others because they do not have the interactivity that blue does. Yes it has its bad matchups, but it does not just flat out lose to anything. That statement is false.

Fact is the only deck I do not want to see when playing is Reanimator due to Emmy and the fact that they tend to be faster than us. Note that they are NOT a red deck.

Edit:
What I am trying to say, and its a point I hope everyone understands, is that Painter is NOT a one trick pony. The deck can win without Moon, I have more than once boarded out all my moons and still come out ahead. This deck runs fine as a control and as an aggro deck. Moon is just a tool, NOT the win con.

[iamajellydonut]

Painter can turn 1 combo.

Painter's Servant
Grindstone
Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors
Simian Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide

[Dice_Box]

Well I run a Petal too. I was saying it CAN be done. Not that it was commonly done. But it proves the point well enough. Not a Moon in sight and the game is over.

Anyway the more common win is:
2x SOL land
1x Painter
1x Stone

That leaves 3 cards open for whatever. 4/5 if you count draws. I like those hands because with even one Spirit Guide you are protected 90% of the time. Again, not a moon in sight. Not just a one trick Pony.

Edit:
My spelling is shot today...

[iamajellydonut]

Again, not a moon in sight. Not just a one trick Pony.

You're right. It's a two trick pony.

Imperial Painter has fantastic consistency sans-drawing Grindstone naturally from a stack of sixty cards. This remains entirely undisputed. Unfortunately, its consistency can take a critical amount of time and the vulnerability created by this time is compounded by its lack of ability to grind out games. Turn 1 Recruiter into turn 2 win can be consistent, but what's also consistent is turn 1 Thoughtseize or turn 2 Hymn or turn 2 Abrupt Decay or something as simple as more Forces and Swords to Plowshares to your Simian'd REBs. Ordinarily I wouldn't flip to "dies to removal" so fast, but it is a large issue with the mono-red variant as you don't have any way to make up for it. No, none of the listed counters will flat end the game, but without a hard-lock of Blood Moon, a pew-pew of REBs and Pyroblasts will only go so far.

Blood Moon has come. Blood Moon has gone. Blood Moon has come and it's gone and it's come and it's gone for about the past nineteen years. It will continue to come and go on the basis of it being largely a coinflip and having a huge potential to create dead space in a deck. Now is no different.

[Dice_Box]

I will agree with you on most of your points. I disagree that it's a two trick Pony. It has aggro options as well as sideboard lock cards it can fall behind.

Unfortunately yes, finding Stone can be a grind, yes I have has games where I have had to power though land after land looking for something, anything to make an impact on the board. But at the same time, I have had that with Goblins, Elves, hell even with Burn. That's not a unique issue. The only issue is that you can not directly tutor your second combo card. Thankfully there is Top to help.

Now I am not going to stand on a soapbox and cry that painter is the best deck in the game. I think it is the best Mono Red deck in the game but far from the best overall. It's strongest element though is not its Combo, it's moon effects, it's prison card's or its counters. It strongest element is that Blue is constantly played the most and it preys on these decks.

Moon will come, moon will go, but as long as people keep wanting to play decks with two colours, 8+ fetches and few basics, or make the mistake that 8+ fetches will mean they can sit on 2 basics, it will remain a force.

Also Painter plus Blast kills basics. Something I have done quite a few times in the past. Not a perfect answer to trying to hold down a lock, but an effective one once online.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[iamajellydonut]

So, looking past your criticisms of my hyperboles, in the end we just agree?

[Dice_Box]

I do not agree that Painter NEEDS moon. I think it's a wonderful tool but that's it alone. A tool. I do agree moon will be worked around in time, I have seen it done before. I mean when I started in Onslaught there was not a moon in sight. Everyone was playing mono tribal for the most part.

My point is Painter has more angles of attack than most think it does, that's all I have been trying to say. The idea that Painter IS Moon, that one cannot be without the other was the only real point I took offence to. In all other points, yes, I think we more or less agree.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Ish]

What is this 1 trick 2 trick BS. They deck is a midrange stompy deck with a combo. There are many angles to the deck. Recruiter is the engine behind the deck looking up many silver bullets in different match ups. If the deck relied on only 2 things and isn't blue it wouldn't win an LGS tournament let alone a major event.

It is a fact that the moon effects are very good right now. But a good pilot with this deck knows how to play without moon or painter in hand or on board.

Honestly go look at the ipainter thread which started way before these past 2 events and look ate the various card choices, options, and flexibility. Understand the deck before just bloviating.

[from Cairo]

Unfortunately, its consistency can take a critical amount of time and the vulnerability created by this time is compounded by its lack of ability to grind out games...

...Ordinarily I wouldn't flip to "dies to removal" so fast, but it is a large issue with the mono-red variant as you don't have any way to make up for it.

The deck is absolutely multi-dimensional. There is the Painter + Grind, there is the ~6x Moon effects, and there is the Imperial Recruiter tool box.

The mono-Red build can combat the "dies to removal" or permission element with cards like Spellskite and Goblin Welder. Sol lands and Simian Spirit Guides can do a lot of work against soft counters as well.

I think it is a deck that most decks can learn to play well against, but Blood Moon also will steal a bunch of game 1s, when the pilot is not identified as being on Painter.

[Dzra]

It's not that the deck doesn't have multiple avenues of progressing the game... but it does have a certain dependence on Painter's Servant. It maindecks 6 REB effects with no way to move them out of your hand if you don't have a Painter and aren't fighting a primarily Blue deck. It isn't a "one trick pony," but it does put quite a few eggs in the Painter basket.

[Ish]

It's not that the deck doesn't have multiple avenues of progressing the game... but it does have a certain dependence on Painter's Servant. It maindecks 6 REB effects with no way to move them out of your hand if you don't have a Painter and aren't fighting a primarily Blue deck. It isn't a "one trick pony," but it does put quite a few eggs in the Painter basket.

[start the sarcasm tone]
getting an edge game 1 against a deck with blue: hmm, that seems aweful in legacy
having 6 cards that have synergy with 4 other cards: hmm, you're right thats a 1 trick pony
puts eggs into a basket: hmm, yeah a deck that requires key components to opperate at full strength... that does seem odd
[/start the sarcasm tone]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Ellomdian]

Not because the color fixing is utterly required, but because there was previously little reason not to. If BUG tosses in 3 basics, they're, relatively speaking, set...Painter-Stone is not the issue. Blood Moon is not even the issue. It's that deckbuilders have grown complacent and two players have managed to get lucky off the back of this ignorance.

I feel like not having effectively perfect mana in most Shardless lists is crippling. You need to cast specific cards in your hand at any given time, with a wide variety of costs. Jace, Hymn, and Green cards. If BUG tosses in 3 basics, they can still be very badly handicapped.

I also don't like the statement that players get lucky on the back of 'ignorance.' I loved wrecking RUG with Tezz and Chalice at opens when it was the prevailing "noob" deck, but when the environment shifted to Esper Blade, I wasn't cashing in as many free wins. Finding a hole and exploiting it is not luck - it's part of the reason why Legacy is so sweet. There are holes at every event you play - no one can cover all the bases.



Fixed that for you. :wink:
Seriously, Recruiters are so expensive and rare that this deck can never become Deck to Beat, simply because as soon as Imperial Painter becomes really popular, Recruiters will go up from the rediculous price they are at right now to an astronomically high price that even Bill Gates would be reluctant to buy them for. There just aren't enough Recruiters around.

Recruiters can be had on eBay for $75, and if you know a judge who travels, he probably has 2 he is willing to part with for $50/ea. That puts it on par with SnT (which is also a Judge promo... hehehehehe) in terms of cost, and if you buy the recruiters to play painter, Alluren is not an expensive deck to build. So while you won't be using them at every event for the next 2 years, you also aren't only able to play them in one specific deck.