[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays -- A Short History of Dual Lands

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/SMIPAShortHistoryOfDualLands.jpg


http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4304


Mana is the foundation of Magic. Although it is possible to design and build decks without mana production, it is extremely difficult. More importantly, the possibilities for mana production define the range of strategic possibilities in Magic. This is why Zvi Mowshowitz once claimed that he began analyzing a format by examining the possibilities inherent in that format’s mana production capacity.

Lands are the building blocks of mana production. While there are many forms of mana production, and while it is possible to build decks without mana producing lands (or even lands at all), mana producing lands are the most basic building block in the game of Magic. They shape and constrain the strategic possibilities in the game.

Check it out!!

[Lemnear]

Awesome Piece!

Thx, Stephen

[Gheizen64]

I loved the article.
It seems strange to me that you haven’t explored the possibilities for “situationally better than original duals”, especially when you described Horizon Canopy (and manlands) between your lands, one that can be situationally better than duals and get lots of love in legacy, while not being overpowered or anything. That’s where Wizard has to go imho, stop with this just being “duals with a drawback”, but go for “duals with a drawback and a bonus”, like Horizon Canopy and Manlands. This way you may diversify a bit manabases even in eternal where Duals are still king (well, Fetches more correctly).

[Dzra]

Good read.

I personally think there's a lot of design space that they could tap into simply by adding basic land subtypes to already successful dual land designs. This would have little to no affect on Standard/Block, but would be a great boon for Legacy/Modern. Imagine m10 or Scars duals simply with the basic land subtypes. Instantly Eternal has cheaper alternatives for Alpha duals, while still retaining Alpha duals' superiority.

I also agree that directions like Grove of Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy, and the Worldwake manland cycle are all additional great areas to explore.

[Smmenen]

Good read.

I personally think there's a lot of design space that they could tap into simply by adding basic land subtypes to already successful dual land designs. This would have little to no affect on Standard/Block, but would be a great boon for Legacy/Modern. Image m10 or Scars duals simply with the basic land subtypes. Instantly Eternal has cheaper alternatives for Alpha duals, while still retaining Alpha duals' superiority.

I also agree that directions like Grove of Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy, and the Worldwake manland cycle are all additional great areas to explore.

It also illustrates just how awesome and under appreciated Future Sight is for its design innovations.

I'm really glad this is your reaction, because that's exactly what I wanted the reader to take away.

[nedleeds]

Good read, amazing how many duals are just garbage in eternal. I forgot about Lava Tubes.

Legendary alpha duals would be fine for eternal play with the m14 rules, without the land types it would tough to justify them except as workarounds for things like Choke. With no way to find them, the same vulnerability to Wasteland/Blood Moon/B2B, and lack of synergy with Gush/Daze/Ensnare ( :) ) I think they'd still be considered budget choices.

Would Legendary Tundraville really throw modern into some kind of 5color mess? Look at the mana bases of some of these modern decks now, they are already pretty greedy.

[Smmenen]

That's my opinion. We'll see what Theros actualy has in store -- as it could be anything, as we've seen. But I hope my article opened up some eyes to the possibilities.

[apple713]

it would be really nice to see some outside the box thinking on this set of duals. They couldnt be better in the sense that they have both basic land types with no drawbacks cause that would violate the reprint policy/reseve list

[Gheizen64]

The new Theros land are:

Scryland
Land
Scryland ETB tapped.
When ETB, scry 1.
T: add X or Y

Taplands with scry 1 attached, or dual color new-benalia. Pretty sad about them. I would've liked something like:

Scryland
Land
ETB tapped
When ETB, scry 1. Then you may reveal the top card of your library, if it's a (basic land/card in color etc) untap it.
T: add X or Y

Some sort of conditionality to untap them. But like this it's pretty terrible.

Awaiting for the obligatory

Scrywaste
Land
Scry 1 as it ETB.
T: 1 colorless.

[DragoFireheart]

Reprint dual lands for modern legal.

...

Make a new Magus of the Moon with a CMC of 2 (total of 12 moon effects).
Reprint Wasteland so it's modern legal.

Sold.

[Gheizen64]

Reprint dual lands for modern legal.

...

Make a new Magus of the Moon with a CMC of 2 (total of 12 moon effects).
Reprint Wasteland so it's modern legal.

Sold.

Dude take an asperen or two, you're not feeling well.

[Megadeus]

The new Theros land are:

Scryland
Land
Scryland ETB tapped.
When ETB, scry 1.
T: add X or Y

Taplands with scry 1 attached, or dual color new-benalia. Pretty sad about them. I would've liked something like:

Scryland
Land
ETB tapped
When ETB, scry 1. Then you may reveal the top card of your library, if it's a (basic land/card in color etc) untap it.
T: add X or Y

Some sort of conditionality to untap them. But like this it's pretty terrible.

Awaiting for the obligatory

Scrywaste
Land
Scry 1 as it ETB.
T: 1 colorless.
Source? I haven't seen anything in this to be true

[Gheizen64]

Source? I haven't seen anything in this to be true

A dude on MTGS, not sure of how reliable, free not to believe. I hope those aren't it honestly.

[nedleeds]

it would be really nice to see some outside the box thinking on this set of duals. They couldnt be better in the sense that they have both basic land types with no drawbacks cause that would violate the reprint policy/reseve list

You are wrong. The term better doesn't appear in the reserved list policy.


A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.

They could create a new subtype called "Reading" and add it to Tundra call it "Island of Plain Reading the Reserved List is Good If you want to Contribute" and it wouldn't violate the reserved list. It would be a Land Reading - Plains Island.

If the "Reading" subtype was never used it wouldn't matter. They could print Snow Tundra, etc..

Also the reserved list can be repealed by WotC anytime they feel like it. It's not constitutional, it's not a contract with you the buyer of cards, it's a company policy. Just like lunch hours, whether or not you can have a beard, and holidays.

Also minute changes qualify also - see Fork vs. Reverberate.

[apple713]

You are wrong. The term better doesn't appear in the reserved list policy.



They could create a new subtype called "Reading" and add it to Tundra call it "Island of Plain Reading the Reserved List is Good If you want to Contribute" and it wouldn't violate the reserved list. It would be a Land Reading - Plains Island.

If the "Reading" subtype was never used it wouldn't matter. They could print Snow Tundra, etc..

Also the reserved list can be repealed by WotC anytime they feel like it. It's not constitutional, it's not a contract with you the buyer of cards, it's a company policy. Just like lunch hours, whether or not you can have a beard, and holidays.

Also minute changes qualify also - see Fork vs. Reverberate.

thats good to clarify.

I've always intrepeted it as better because i would find it hard for them to justify something like a "snow tundra" that would seem like its functionally superior to the already existing, "tundra", or a black lotus that is a legendary enchantment.

[Kap'n Cook]

You may need to revise some things since volcanic island wasn't in alpha.

[Smmenen]

You may need to revise some things since volcanic island wasn't in alpha.

yes, but it was supposed to be. When referring to Alpha I'm also referring to A/B/U/R in this article.

[Kap'n Cook]

yes, but it was supposed to be. When referring to Alpha I'm also referring to A/B/U/R in this article.

That's fair. I'm just nitpicking anyways. Enjoyed the article

[Ecoris]

Some more nitpicking:

Scars of Mirrodin’s Conditional Tap Lands
[...]
These dual lands come into play untapped unless you already have two or more lands in play, in which case they come into play tapped. They inhibit your mid and late-game development, but only if they are the third or later land you play. The fourth or later.


Grove of the Burnwillows inverts the traditional “pain land” model, by giving life to the opponent instead. In general, that is probably weaker than pain lands Uhm, it depends heavily on what strategy you play. Ignoring the Punishing Fire interaction, Grove is weaker than Karplusan Forest in an aggro deck, yes. But I imagine control decks would prefer to give their opponent life.


Magic 2010′s Buddy Lands
[...]
These so-called “buddy lands” would come into play tapped unless you controlled a basic land allied with the dual land. "a land with a basic land type allied with the dual land." Buddy lands do interact quite well with shocklands.

Nice read. I have drawn may share of Mutavault + Sunken Ruins two-landers...

[Gheizen64]

Also i dunno where u got the nicknames but:

M10 lands are usually called checklands
and
Mirrodin lands are called Fastlands

[nedleeds]

thats good to clarify.

I've always intrepeted it as better because i would find it hard for them to justify something like a "snow tundra" that would seem like its functionally superior to the already existing, "tundra", or a black lotus that is a legendary enchantment.

Yeah better is tough ... like in the face of 4 x Icequake, 4 x Thermokarst your Snow Tundra is worse ... but you could Into the North for it ...

[Smmenen]

Also i dunno where u got the nicknames but:

M10 lands are usually called checklands
and
Mirrodin lands are called Fastlands

Wikipedia called them buddy lands. I couldn't find another source that disputed that characterization.

[Smmenen]

Yeah better is tough ... like in the face of 4 x Icequake, 4 x Thermokarst your Snow Tundra is worse ... but you could Into the North for it ...

Yeah, I would not consider a Snow Taiga automatically better. Sometimes better, sometimes worse.

[TsumiBand]

I noted that you weren't trying to discuss triple-color lands, but I think a brief nod to Murmuring Bosk would have gone a long way towards exemplifying the possibilities of creating a land which (a) offers functionality similar to a heavily used cycle - painlands - and (b) also directly interacts with fetchlands.

While the land itself has not seen much Eternal play and only limited Modern play* - probably due to the tribal drawback - the land itself is arguably on a par with the Shards taplands. It trades a painless mechanic for fetchability. Having land types means working with fetchlands, and working with fetchlands gives any printed land an immediate +1 over typeless similar cards. Fetchlands are ubiquitous and format-defining, making mana fixing so easy that it's generally incredibly difficult to justify NOT playing at least two colors in any given deck (or at least, you have to have a Really Good Reason not to do so in Eternal formats).

Just as dual-color taplands have been directly affected and reimagined thanks to power creep - upgrading into uncommon Shards taplands, as well as becoming commons in RtR Block - I think a good case could be made for a land which functions as Murmuring Bosk does, without the tribal ETB drawback as it currently exists.

* - as far as I can tell anyway. I'm not super in-tune with Modern, but I cannot recall a relevant GWB deck in that format which makes use of Murmuring Bosk. If I'm wrong about that, then so much the better; it means the card is more playable than I originally thought (at least in Modern).

[Smmenen]

I noted that you weren't trying to discuss triple-color lands, but I think a brief nod to Murmuring Bosk would have gone a long way towards exemplifying the possibilities of creating a land which (a) offers functionality similar to a heavily used cycle - painlands - and (b) also directly interacts with fetchlands.

While the land itself has not seen much Eternal play and only limited Modern play* - probably due to the tribal drawback - the land itself is arguably on a par with the Shards taplands. It trades a painless mechanic for fetchability. Having land types means working with fetchlands, and working with fetchlands gives any printed land an immediate +1 over typeless similar cards. Fetchlands are ubiquitous and format-defining, making mana fixing so easy that it's generally incredibly difficult to justify NOT playing at least two colors in any given deck (or at least, you have to have a Really Good Reason not to do so in Eternal formats).

Just as dual-color taplands have been directly affected and reimagined thanks to power creep - upgrading into uncommon Shards taplands, as well as becoming commons in RtR Block - I think a good case could be made for a land which functions as Murmuring Bosk does, without the tribal ETB drawback as it currently exists.

* - as far as I can tell anyway. I'm not super in-tune with Modern, but I cannot recall a relevant GWB deck in that format which makes use of Murmuring Bosk. If I'm wrong about that, then so much the better; it means the card is more playable than I originally thought (at least in Modern).

I think it would be useful to catalogue an entire range of possibilities depending on specific variables. Conditionality offers the widest range of variables, as you can have infinite conditions. My design article from May offers a list that may be worth exploring.http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3889


2) Extreme or Unique Conditionality

A second and very rich design space for creating Eternal cards is to create highly efficient effects based on extremely or unusual conditions. To illustrate the range of possibilities, consider the forms of conditionality that already exist on Eternal playable cards:

Library of Alexandria and Infernal Tutor checks to see the number of cards in your hand (7 and respectively).
Mental Misstep and Spell Snare check the casting cost of a spell they target.
Mindbreak Trap checks to see how many cards have been played this turn.
Mirror Universe checks the phase of the turn, and can only be activated in your upkeep.
Serra Avenger checks to see what turn of the game it is.
Chalice of Life checks your life total.
Laboratory Maniac and Shelldock Isle check the number of cards in your library.
Leylines checks to see if it is in your opening hand.
Gemstone Caverns checks to see if they are in your opening hand and if you are not on the play.

The possibilities for design are almost infinite because of the range of conditions that can be created for spells to be cast or effects to be triggered. This list is merely illustrates examples of conditions that already exist. You could have conditions for number of cards in a zone or particular types of cards in a zone. You could have triggers for damage dealt, discard, permanents returned to hand, and on and on.

[Smmenen]

The new Theros land are:

Scryland
Land
Scryland ETB tapped.
When ETB, scry 1.
T: add X or Y

Taplands with scry 1 attached, or dual color new-benalia. Pretty sad about them. I would've liked something like:

Scryland
Land
ETB tapped
When ETB, scry 1. Then you may reveal the top card of your library, if it's a (basic land/card in color etc) untap it.
T: add X or Y

Some sort of conditionality to untap them. But like this it's pretty terrible.

Awaiting for the obligatory

Scrywaste
Land
Scry 1 as it ETB.
T: 1 colorless.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Scry 1 on a legendary land for each color (as long as it doesn't CIP tapped). that would be pretty sweet. Wouldn't be automatic inclusion in every deck because of wastelands, blood moon, non-fetchable, etc, but would be a good choice to have!

[Dzra]

Yeah better is tough ... like in the face of 4 x Icequake, 4 x Thermokarst your Snow Tundra is worse ... but you could Into the North for it ...

Scrying Sheets with Snow dual lands would be pretty legit. Regardless... in the face of overwhelming support for either reprinting Alpha duals or creating a near-functional reprint, I'm still not really sure why Wizards is dragging their feet so much. It isn't as if Legacy inherently makes them less money than Modern.

[Lord Seth]

Also minute changes qualify also - see Fork vs. Reverberate.
Actually, they've said they're toeing the line more closely so we won't see stuff like Reverberate anymore.

[Kayradis]

Great article!

[TsumiBand]

Actually, they've said they're toeing the line more closely so we won't see stuff like Reverberate anymore.

Yeah this, I hate it when people point to Fork/Reverberate and go "look they'll print whatever! so why no duals?"

I do not remember where I read it, probably Blogatog or whatever, or else I'd link to it. But Someone Official did say at one point, "Turns out we won't be printing cards like Reverberate because they violate 'the spirit' of the Reprint Policy".

So like, functional one-offs are apparently bad form. In this our mighty format of functional reprints of Grizzly Bears abound. How convenient and insipid. I read things like this, and I can't help but feel like this kind of "one-offs are still reprints" mantra is just in place so that people stop asking for their duals that have "Snow" or "Gate" or "Legendary" printed somewhere on them. Like it makes it easier to just say, "welp the past was full of mistakes, and if it weren't for that darn reprint policy we'd sure love to give you a bunch of near-miss dual lands, but golly gee we can't seem to get any past our PR department. So what say we inject these creatures with some extra shit and make up for the difference by putting out Standard decks that force the game onto the battlefield where those mean old Mana Drains can't do a damn thing? Sounds good right?"

[Smmenen]

Yeah this, I hate it when people point to Fork/Reverberate and go "look they'll print whatever! so why no duals?"

I do not remember where I read it, probably Blogatog or whatever, or else I'd link to it. But Someone Official did say at one point, "Turns out we won't be printing cards like Reverberate because they violate 'the spirit' of the Reprint Policy".

So like, functional one-offs are apparently bad form. In this our mighty format of functional reprints of Grizzly Bears abound. How convenient and insipid. I read things like this, and I can't help but feel like this kind of "one-offs are still reprints" mantra is just in place so that people stop asking for their duals that have "Snow" or "Gate" or "Legendary" printed somewhere on them. Like it makes it easier to just say, "welp the past was full of mistakes, and if it weren't for that darn reprint policy we'd sure love to give you a bunch of near-miss dual lands, but golly gee we can't seem to get any past our PR department. So what say we inject these creatures with some extra shit and make up for the difference by putting out Standard decks that force the game onto the battlefield where those mean old Mana Drains can't do a damn thing? Sounds good right?"

Reverberate is not a functional reprint. It is functionally different in one critical respect.

[Lord Seth]

Yeah this, I hate it when people point to Fork/Reverberate and go "look they'll print whatever! so why no duals?"

I do not remember where I read it, probably Blogatog or whatever, or else I'd link to it. But Someone Official did say at one point, "Turns out we won't be printing cards like Reverberate because they violate 'the spirit' of the Reprint Policy".
You might be thinking of this statement by Mark Rosewater:
"[Reverberate] was created at a time when we were a little looser with how we handled the Reserve List. As it’s a done deal, we use it, but I don’t feel like we’re going to be doing that in present day."
Source (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is-reverberate)


Reverberate is not a functional reprint. It is functionally different in one critical respect.
It comes practically as close as you can to a functional reprint without being a functional reprint. Which, apparently, is a no-no now.

[Smmenen]

You might be thinking of this statement by Mark Rosewater:
"[Reverberate] was created at a time when we were a little looser with how we handled the Reserve List. As it’s a done deal, we use it, but I don’t feel like we’re going to be doing that in present day."
Source (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is-reverberate)


It comes practically as close as you can to a functional reprint without being a functional reprint. Which, apparently, is a no-no now.

He says "I don't feel..." Not exactly clear language. I wouldn't read it that strictly.

[nedleeds]

Actually, they've said they're toeing the line more closely so we won't see stuff like Reverberate anymore.

Mark Rosewater's blog isn't a legally binding contract. Actually the reserved list policy is completely subject to change at WotC discretion at any time. If they get bought, see a regime change etc. they could change it overnight and I can't see any vendor winning a lawsuit or anything against them (but I'm not a lawyer).

[Aggro_zombies]

Mark Rosewater's blog isn't a legally binding contract. Actually the reserved list policy is completely subject to change at WotC discretion at any time. If they get bought, see a regime change etc. they could change it overnight and I can't see any vendor winning a lawsuit or anything against them (but I'm not a lawyer).
It isn't, but what it is is a window into the thought processes of people who create the cards. If MaRo says, "we're not going to create [card X] for the foreseeable future," then they're not going to create [card X] for the foreseeable future. It doesn't matter whether or not they legally can or can't do it; the point is that they won't. Applying that to dual lands, it effectively means that anything they're going to print will have zero impact on this format because it won't be as good as the originals - there's no way they'll make better lands, and they can't make "mostly functionally identical except for a couple minor interactions" because they said they won't do that anymore.

Besides, we don't know why they won't repeal the Reserved List, or why they've doubled down on it. Their legal department prevents them from speaking about it. That suggests that there is, in fact, some legal thing involved in this.

[Smmenen]

While it is very unlikely that the Reserved List will be reversed or broken (intentionally) any time soon, I would not put that weight upon Rosewater's words. While it's unlikely that they will print close functional reprints of reserved cards, it's not unlikely that they would reprint cards that like Twincast was to Fork -- not a functional reprint, but a close cousin.

The Reserved List does not have a "spirit." It has text that has changed over time.

[Ellomdian]

Besides, we don't know why they won't repeal the Reserved List... That suggests that there is, in fact, some legal thing involved in this.

Objection, asked and answered?

[TsumiBand]

Reverberate is not a functional reprint. It is functionally different in one critical respect.


I realize that, I called it a functional one-off. "Functional reprints" was in reference to every Grizzly Bears 2/2 for 1G under the sun - some of which are actually one-offs themselves, since they change creature types around on them but leave them vanilla 2/2s.


While it is very unlikely that the Reserved List will be reversed or broken (intentionally) any time soon, I would not put that weight upon Rosewater's words. While it's unlikely that they will print close functional reprints of reserved cards, it's not unlikely that they would reprint cards that like Twincast was to Fork -- not a functional reprint, but a close cousin.

The Reserved List does not have a "spirit." It has text that has changed over time.

Unfortunately the whole thing is just surrounded by vague statements from everyone, so it may not have a "spirit" as such, but it sure has a lot of hazy fog. Nobody seems to want to say, "yes this is legally binding and we can't discuss it" or "no it isn't legally binding but we're a company that tries to keep our promises".

It's this whole game of insinuation and inference. Which would be fine if we were talking about, like, trade secrets or future sets or any number of things that would normally legitimately be detrimental to expound upon. But instead you get these situations where Aaron Forsythe tweets things like: (https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/52570739693457408)



We've discussed Snow-covered Tundra. It feels like cheating on 2 levels, pissing off those that wanted Tundra reprinted & those that didn't.


or his not-so-recent Reddit session.. (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/qlrhn/ama_with_aaron_forsythe_of_wizards_of_the_coast/c3yl49t)



Reserved List
* How does Wizard plan on keeping Legacy & Vintage from becoming extinct in the future?
* Does the policy not lead to a future a secondary market full of high quality counterfeit cards?
* It is known that upper-management made the final decision to keep the reserved list and close the loophole. What can the player base do to get this decision reversed and the list abolished. We saw a change after the player base revolted to ratings can we do the same for the reserved list?

[–]mtgaaron[S] 35 points 1 year ago
A) Two ways, most likely. One, we'll keep supporting them at the level we do now. At the very least, the sizes of those communities will stay the same as they are now, and as more sets are released, more decks made up mostly of newer cards (like Affinity) will let more people in. Two, I imagine Magic Online will someday have vibrant Vintage and Legacy communities. We can "print" whatever we want on there.
B) I hope not.
C) Nothing, really. It's not like it was decided merely as a matter of opinion. Someone made a promise a long time ago, and as much as I personally wish it wasn't so, we have to stick with it. I understand the demand is there, but we're not going to open ourselves up to ill will or worse by reneging.


I mean it's all just giving off this vibe of disdain and "erhhh grumble we donwanna talk about it". Which, honestly, given the amount of Eternal-relevant product they are able to just print now via Commander product - or using Modern Masters as the precedent for doing Legacy Masters + extra special Snow Dual technology - IMO, if they really didn't have their hands tied on this, we'd have already seen something aimed at Old Eternal players that doesn't fuck up anything newer than Modern, wherein something that contends with those lands could exist without doing anything except making Vintage/Legacy/EDH manabases better than they already are, hopefully even more accessible to boot.

At any rate I had no intention of belaboring the point re: Reprint Policy discussion. But like I said, even if there's no official statements with clear language surrounding the way they treat near-misses like Reverberate or the putative Snow dual-lands, they are sending a pretty consistent message that fudging on the details of the card is not considered a viable means of skirting the issue.

What I think this means for the original discussion - examining the possibilities for future mana-fixing - means that one can only really gage what they are willing to do based on what they have done.

[Stan]

My guess, and this is pure speculation, is the following. It's a known fact that they met with the people of SCG a few years ago to discuss the reserved list. SCG is the biggest distributor of their product worldwide, and organizes a lot of high profile tournaments. When they talk, Wizards listens. SCG probably pointed out that they have a lot of traffic of reserved list cards, and that they fear that thre prices will plummet as soon as these cards are reprinted. If that happens, they'd have to cut down costs, and would organize less tournaments. Wizards probably never intended to reprint the cards anyway, and a deal was struck and signed not to reprint the cards on the list. At that point you'd have a legally binding reason. Throw in a non-disclosure agreement, and you'd get the sort of communication you see now. Again: pure speculation.

[Smmenen]

My guess, and this is pure speculation, is the following. It's a known fact that they met with the people of SCG a few years ago to discuss the reserved list. SCG is the biggest distributor of their product worldwide, and organizes a lot of high profile tournaments. When they talk, Wizards listens. SCG probably pointed out that they have a lot of traffic of reserved list cards, and that they fear that thre prices will plummet as soon as these cards are reprinted. If that happens, they'd have to cut down costs, and would organize less tournaments. Wizards probably never intended to reprint the cards anyway, and a deal was struck and signed not to reprint the cards on the list. At that point you'd have a legally binding reason. Throw in a non-disclosure agreement, and you'd get the sort of communication you see now. Again: pure speculation.

I was one of the people Wizards met with.

[davelin]

My guess, and this is pure speculation, is the following. It's a known fact that they met with the people of SCG a few years ago to discuss the reserved list. SCG is the biggest distributor of their product worldwide, and organizes a lot of high profile tournaments. When they talk, Wizards listens. SCG probably pointed out that they have a lot of traffic of reserved list cards, and that they fear that thre prices will plummet as soon as these cards are reprinted. If that happens, they'd have to cut down costs, and would organize less tournaments. Wizards probably never intended to reprint the cards anyway, and a deal was struck and signed not to reprint the cards on the list. At that point you'd have a legally binding reason. Throw in a non-disclosure agreement, and you'd get the sort of communication you see now. Again: pure speculation.

Isn't Ben Bleiweiss on record saying he recommended to remove the reserve list?

[Anusien]

My guess, and this is pure speculation, is the following. It's a known fact that they met with the people of SCG a few years ago to discuss the reserved list. SCG is the biggest distributor of their product worldwide, and organizes a lot of high profile tournaments. When they talk, Wizards listens. SCG probably pointed out that they have a lot of traffic of reserved list cards, and that they fear that thre prices will plummet as soon as these cards are reprinted. If that happens, they'd have to cut down costs, and would organize less tournaments. Wizards probably never intended to reprint the cards anyway, and a deal was struck and signed not to reprint the cards on the list. At that point you'd have a legally binding reason. Throw in a non-disclosure agreement, and you'd get the sort of communication you see now. Again: pure speculation.
Ben Bleiweiss was at that meeting and was very vocal (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=18824) about wanting to abolish the Reserved List.

[Mr Miagi]

I say let the flood of high quality counterfiet cards in. Yes it will suck at the begining, but then again, if the fake is good enough, well who really notices it then (not all will make high res scans and investigate dot/print patterns).

And let there be plenty of T2 counterfiet cards as well (as they already are, and lol, no1's really checking those cards).. just purely to annoy wizards, becasue if wizards do not want my money for the eternal/reserved list staples.. well I certainly won't beg them to take it, I'll just buy stuff at secondary market be it real or fake, as long as it's "good enough".

edit: Bottom line, do not worry for eternal formats, there might be a choke point somewhere in the future, but high quality fakes will fill the gap. It is inevitable.. afterall we are playing a cardboard card game, what do you expect.

[Octopusman]

Thanks, Stephen.

I like the "choose your own x" variant.

In the case of Tundra, do you think it'd be too confusing to the consumer if it had type island/plains but it only produces white or blue for example?

I'd like to be able to fetch it with Scalding Tarn and choose white for example.


Nice article. Thanks again,

[bruizar]

stopped reading at

"Alpha only had 15 lands in the entire set, and each land was a mana producer: 5 basic lands and 10 dual lands, one for each combination of colors."

No mention of Birds of Paradise / Volcanic Island.

Incorrect history article

[Smmenen]

stopped reading at

"Alpha only had 15 lands in the entire set, and each land was a mana producer: 5 basic lands and 10 dual lands, one for each combination of colors."

No mention of Birds of Paradise / Volcanic Island.

Incorrect history article

volcanic Island was supposed to be printed in Alpha. That was an error in printing. And its clear from the header that by "alpha," im referring to ABUR here. Also, birds is not a land.

[Fossil4182]

stopped reading at

"Alpha only had 15 lands in the entire set, and each land was a mana producer: 5 basic lands and 10 dual lands, one for each combination of colors."

No mention of Birds of Paradise / Volcanic Island.

Incorrect history article

OMG! There was an error in the article... guess the entire article is worthless and shouldn't be read :-p

Just because there's an error doesn't mean the whole article is worth skipping. It's also not just a history article, but you wouldn't know because you trashed it without reading the whole thing...

[Julian23]

volcanic Island was supposed to be printed in Alpha. That was an error in printing. And its clear from the header that by "alpha," im referring to ABUR here. Also, birds is not a land.

I think bruizar was referring to the fact that Birds of Paradise's art was originally intended for Volcanic Island, which is quite interesting.

[bruizar]

Birds of Paradise was the original art for Volcanic Island, but the bird (creature) was too prominent for volcanic island (land) and thus they decided to make it a creature instead. This is why alpha only contains 14 different lands, not counting the different versions of basic lands (arabian night mountain is a different story..) The conclusion is that it was not an error, but a conscious decision to replace volcanic island with birds of paradise. The change of artwork for plateau on the other hand, was an 'error' in the sense that the original art of the alpha/beta/unlimited version was lost.

Volcanic Island has an even more peculiar history, since it is the only card from beta that does not have white triangles in the bottom, and has a unique inner border compared to the other betas.

The reason why I'm critical about details like this is because I know Stephen is a long time eternal player with roots in the vintage scene. He's an academic guy with excellent writing abilities. I expect a higher level of accuracy from him simply because I know he can, and errors like this suggest that it was written up too quickly for that degree of quality.

Note the borders
http://www.abugames.com/images/products/gradedbetacards/6522348.jpghttp://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MAGBET/TundraBeta20969856.jpg


The real alpha Volcanic Island; question yourself why there would be a volcano on a birds of paradise picture? My interpretation of the artwork is that the birds are actually fleeing from the volcanic island right after it errupted
http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/1603/16187312/Birds_of_Paradise_PSA_9.jpg

[Smmenen]

stopped reading at

"Alpha only had 15 lands in the entire set, and each land was a mana producer: 5 basic lands and 10 dual lands, one for each combination of colors."

No mention of Birds of Paradise / Volcanic Island.

Incorrect history article


The header said "Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, and Revised Dual Lands." That made it very clear that "Alpha" was a short hand for "ABUR."


This is why alpha only contains 14 different lands, not counting the different versions of basic lands (arabian night mountain is a different story..) The conclusion is that it was not an error, but a conscious decision to replace volcanic island with birds of paradise. The change of artwork for plateau on the other hand, was an 'error' in the sense that the original art of the alpha/beta/unlimited version was lost.

The absence of Volcanic Island in Alpha was a printing error, NOT a conscious choice. Alpha was intended to be a 10 million card print run, but Alpha was only 2.6 million cards, with Beta being the rest -- and HAVING the accidentally omitted cards. Volcanic Island was not the only missing card. A COP was missing, among 2-3 other cards as well.

Moreover, the conclusion that the omission of Volcanic Island was deliberate misunderstands the creation of the set. Magic: The Gathering (Alpha/Beta) was designed long in advance. In fact, it was designed after years of playtesting. Volcanic Island was not omitted by conscious choice, but completely by accident.

It's not as if Alpha's print run was decided at the printers. It was created long in advance, and the multiple omissions (I think 5 cards total) were all corrected in Beta, which, although became a second print run, was not intended as such.

[mini1337s]

The header said "Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, and Revised Dual Lands." That made it very clear that "Alpha" was a short hand for "ABUR."



The absence of Volcanic Island in Alpha was a printing error, NOT a conscious choice. Alpha was intended to be a 10 million card print run, but Alpha was only 2.6 million cards, with Beta being the rest -- and HAVING the accidentally omitted cards. Volcanic Island was not the only missing card. A COP was missing, among 2-3 other cards as well.

Moreover, the conclusion that the omission of Volcanic Island was deliberate misunderstands the creation of the set. Magic: The Gathering (Alpha/Beta) was designed long in advance. In fact, it was designed after years of playtesting. Volcanic Island was not omitted by conscious choice, but completely by accident.

It's not as if Alpha's print run was decided at the printers. It was created long in advance, and the multiple omissions (I think 5 cards total) were all corrected in Beta, which, although became a second print run, was not intended as such.
Garfield first thought of the game in the early 80s, with playtesting from 91 - 93ish, no? Atleast, I think that's what I remember from a History of Vintage :)

[Lord Seth]

Garfield first thought of the game in the early 80s, with playtesting from 91 - 93ish, no? Atleast, I think that's what I remember from a History of Vintage :)
I don't think he could've thought of it in the early 80s. What happened was in 1991, when Richard Garfield was trying to get WOTC to publish RoboRally, he asked what kind of games they were interested in, and if they'd decribe the game they wanted, he's design it. Peter Adkinson said he was thinking about some kind of fantasy or science fiction card game that would let them showcase art and give people something to do in between panels that didn't require a lot of setup. Garfield then came up with the idea of a trading card game based on that.

I suppose it's possible he happened to have the concept of a TCG since the 1980's and he just happened to stumble across someone who was interested, but Peter Adkinson's account (found here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/41a)) indicates that Richard Garfield was just developing it based on the ideas given to him.

[bruizar]

As any game designer knows, concept creation and content creation are two different things.

[mini1337s]

I don't think he could've thought of it in the early 80s. What happened was in 1991, when Richard Garfield was trying to get WOTC to publish RoboRally, he asked what kind of games they were interested in, and if they'd decribe the game they wanted, he's design it. Peter Adkinson said he was thinking about some kind of fantasy or science fiction card game that would let them showcase art and give people something to do in between panels that didn't require a lot of setup. Garfield then came up with the idea of a trading card game based on that.

I suppose it's possible he happened to have the concept of a TCG since the 1980's and he just happened to stumble across someone who was interested, but Peter Adkinson's account (found here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/41a)) indicates that Richard Garfield was just developing it based on the ideas given to him.
Sorry, that was poor wording on my part. It was just a concept, in the 80s, there was no active development.

[Stan]

I was one of the people Wizards met with.

I know, but neither you, Bleiweis or anybody else who was there will or is allowed to disclose what the reason of that decision was. So what's the relevancy of this?

[Smmenen]

I know, but neither you, Bleiweis or anybody else who was there will or is allowed to disclose what the reason of that decision was. So what's the relevancy of this?

To point out that your speculation was incorrect.

[Smmenen]

Garfield first thought of the game in the early 80s, with playtesting from 91 - 93ish, no? Atleast, I think that's what I remember from a History of Vintage :)

This is correct :)

[BenBleiweiss]

My guess, and this is pure speculation, is the following. It's a known fact that they met with the people of SCG a few years ago to discuss the reserved list. SCG is the biggest distributor of their product worldwide, and organizes a lot of high profile tournaments. When they talk, Wizards listens. SCG probably pointed out that they have a lot of traffic of reserved list cards, and that they fear that thre prices will plummet as soon as these cards are reprinted. If that happens, they'd have to cut down costs, and would organize less tournaments. Wizards probably never intended to reprint the cards anyway, and a deal was struck and signed not to reprint the cards on the list. At that point you'd have a legally binding reason. Throw in a non-disclosure agreement, and you'd get the sort of communication you see now. Again: pure speculation.

As other people pointed out - this is the exact opposite of our stance. We would love to see the Reserve List abolished. I do not believe that if the Reserve List is abolished, it will be anytime soon at this point.

(And as other people pointed out - we've publicly asked for the Reserve List to be abolished - so it's weird that you would speculate without doing research :)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- General Manager, StarCityGames.com

[Stan]

As other people pointed out - this is the exact opposite of our stance. We would love to see the Reserve List abolished. I do not believe that if the Reserve List is abolished, it will be anytime soon at this point.

(And as other people pointed out - we've publicly asked for the Reserve List to be abolished - so it's weird that you would speculate without doing research :)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- General Manager, StarCityGames.com

I have read those appeals to abolish that list. I've also seen more than one person say one thing during a meeting in private, and the opposite when people can hear it (not saying you're doing that, but I wouldn't bet my firstborn on the opposite option either). Point being, this game is in essence a cash cow for a lot of people. The decision to reprint or not ultimately depends on what some involved party thinks will make them the most money. Wizards invited you guys for a meeting, which indicates they kept their options open at that moment. Afterwards, they tightened the reprint policy. Somebody in that room convinced them it was the sensible thing to do, economically speaking.

[Smmenen]

I have read those appeals to abolish that list. I've also seen more than one person say one thing during a meeting in private, and the opposite when people can hear it (not saying you're doing that, but I wouldn't bet my firstborn on the opposite option either). Point being, this game is in essence a cash cow for a lot of people. The decision to reprint or not ultimately depends on what some involved party thinks will make them the most money. Wizards invited you guys for a meeting, which indicates they kept their options open at that moment. Afterwards, they tightened the reprint policy. Somebody in that room convinced them it was the sensible thing to do, economically speaking.

It wasn't us. We can tell you that.

[Finn]

This turned into an unexpectedly fascinating conversation. I love Magic history. I love telling it. I love reading it. I love learning stuff I did not know about it. I think this conversation is valuable, and I bet that down the road, Steve and Ben both commenting here about "the secret meeting" will cause this thread to be remembered and quoted. Cool take on dual lands (we called them twisties).

Anybody remember Ursa's Brick? How about whan Island was banned? I want to re-read that stuff to see how much was prescient.

[HammafistRoob]

Anybody remember Ursa's Brick? How about whan Island was banned?

Wait, what? Not to derail the thread or anything, but would you care to elaborate?

[Julian23]

I believe it was The Duelist that once pulled the prank of publishing an article on Island being banned. From what I remember they said it enabled to many dominant and degenerated decks...:laugh:.......:eyebrow:

[TsumiBand]

The Reserved List does not have a "spirit." It has text that has changed over time.

So um, today.



jokey665 asked: While against the spirit of the reserve list, could Wizards technically print an instant for U that said "Draw three cards"? Ancestral says target player so it's not exactly the same.

We’re trying not to break the spirit of the Reserved List either.


Funny thing about whether or not something exists, is that it can still inform a person's judgment. So maybe MaRo admitting they've no intent on breaking "the spirit of the Reversed List" doesn't make it a real thing, somehow in lawyer-ese I'm sure it is not an explicit admittance of a thing's existence. But it is actively informing their decision-making on what they can and cannot print.

Also, this just outright pisses me off. People who stand to gain from the Reserve List are the luckiest sons of bitches in the fucking world - I'm not talking about people who bought their duals for 50 bucks 5 years ago, I mean the people who were in on the ground floor back in 90-something that helped to conceive it. It's like someone realized they could lock-down the securest investment imaginable and made it happen; you buy into something, then demand its scarcity. But not just its scarcity; you also demand that nothing ever competes directly with that product in such a way that it can be easily supplanted or replaced by an existing resource, either now or in the future. Look I never want to see a Darker Ritual or Ancestral Recall++ or anything - but there's like this no-fly zone around the whole concept. Reverberate proved that, and comments like this - while probably aimed at killing people's hopes of a targetless Ancestral Recall - show that there is no fudging on technicalities, and that it is obvious to all parties involved that Reverberate's inability to turn a copy of the spell Red is not a central enough factor in making it demonstrably different enough to warrant similar printings.

I realize it's idle chatter - from me, from the rest of the rabble, from Tabak, from Rosewater, from Forsythe, and on and on - but it's framing the whole thing in a really despicable way. I never want to distance myself from the game nearly as much as when I think about the Reprint Policy; it does not just impact the game itself, but it has gone well out of its way to try and fix the value of physical items such that they can only appreciate, and forever mandate that anything even approaching a functional analog within the game cannot occur. What a load of horse shit.

Yeah yeah I know it's practically a necro, whatever. First page is first page, this topic is scarcely 10 days cold. I just hate this stuff, and I'm tired of having people over-explain to me why it's secretly good for me, or good for the game. It's bullshit.

[Stan]

Also, this just outright pisses me off. People who stand to gain from the Reserve List are the luckiest sons of bitches in the fucking world - I'm not talking about people who bought their duals for 50 bucks 5 years ago, I mean the people who were in on the ground floor back in 90-something that helped to conceive it. It's like someone realized they could lock-down the securest investment imaginable and made it happen; you buy into something, then demand its scarcity. But not just its scarcity; you also demand that nothing ever competes directly with that product in such a way that it can be easily supplanted or replaced by an existing resource, either now or in the future.

Nobody likes a crybaby. If you get in on a good thing right from the start, it'll cost you less than if you get in a few years later when it's booming. People who bought Apple shares in 1990 can retire from their profits if they sell now too. I got my ten playsets of duals for between 300 and 400 old belgian francs (between 7.5 and 10 euro) per card too in the late 1990s, back then people called me an idiot because 'nobody plays type 1'. Good stuff that's also rare tends to become more valuable over time. Ten years from now, when a revised wb plateau will be worth 150 euro, people will bitch about those lucky bastards who got theirs cheap in the early 2010s.

[Stan]

Also, I can't think of a single person who owns dual lands who has demanded that Wizards never prints alternative duals, functionally identical, but which walk the fine line of the RL without breaking it. Putting 'some guys' an argument you made up in their mouths, and then attack 'their' argument', is called strawman-debating. I wouldn't care at all if they'd print legenduals, and I don't know any owner of duals who would mind. The sky didn't exactly fall when they printed Plague Sliver and obsoleted Juzam Djinn, then (and now) a 150 euro card.

[TsumiBand]

If you get in on a good thing right from the start, it'll cost you less than if you get in a few years later when it's booming. People who bought Apple shares in 1990 can retire from their profits if they sell now too. I got my ten playsets of duals for between 300 and 400 old belgian francs (between 7.5 and 10 euro) per card too in the late 1990s, back then people called me an idiot because 'nobody plays type 1'. Good stuff that's also rare tends to become more valuable over time. Ten years from now, when a revised wb plateau will be worth 150 euro, people will bitch about those lucky bastards who got theirs cheap in the early 2010s.
Also, I can't think of a single person who owns dual lands who has demanded that Wizards never prints alternative duals, functionally identical, but which walk the fine line of the RL without breaking it. Putting 'some guys' an argument you made up in their mouths, and then attack 'their' argument', is called strawman-debating. I wouldn't care at all if they'd print legenduals, and I don't know any owner of duals who would mind. The sky didn't exactly fall when they printed Plague Sliver and obsoleted Juzam Djinn, then (and now) a 150 euro card.

You just did the same thing a few posts ago, you just encapsulated your statement with "this is pure speculation", so I'm not certain where you're even coming from.

I'm just saying that's what this whole thing feels like. It "feels like" a bunch of dicks got together and decided to force a scarcity on cards, because reasons - even though if you look at other collectibles in a similar vein, they've all had their own "limited edition/special edition/whatever-the-shit edition" redux come out over the years, and it has not affected the price of the genuine article.

It also "feels like" Wizards quickly realized that they fucked up when they printed some of these things and felt it was necessary to guarantee that they couldn't exist in the future so that there was actually room to grow. I mean really it's hard to go up from dual lands or Time Walk, right? That kind of power creep would be far worse than the 3/3s for 1 and 3/2s for 1 and 15/15s for 2U that people generally whine about.

As for whether or not no actual card owners give a shit about Legenduals, given that they can't even go from Fork to Reverberate without "violating the spirit" of the policy, that's just one more pointer to someone somewhere making a stink about near-functional reprints and saying "don't you guys try to get fucking smart with me, I see what you did there". AGAIN, PUR SPECULASHUN, hurp durp.


Nobody likes a crybaby.

Ain't I lucky, then, that I don't need to be liked by a bunch of random words on the Internets. That's not speculation that's just a statement of fact. Apparently that's a distinction I need to make.

[HammafistRoob]

Ding ding ding.... we have a winner!

Seriously, I agree with everything you said. A minor nitpick though, duals weren't even near 50 bucks a piece 5 years ago(white bordered at least), it was more like 25 for blue ones and 20 for nonblues. With a little variation depending on the specific dual. Still, good show ol' chap.

I was absolutely stunned when I came back to the game after a few year hiatus and saw the price of Legacy staples increased by 300-400 percent. Crazy stuff.

[Stan]

The same price jumps happened to Modern staples too. Look at those fetchlands, Thoughtseizes and Lilianas. Good cards that see play and which are rare go up in value.

Even without the reserved list, I doubt they'd reprint dual lands. Those things are strictly better than basics (something they don't like to do), and they obsolete dozens of other good lands. It's a pity that certain stuff, for example Exploration, is on that list, because the game would benefit from a reprint of that card, but duals were a mistake.

[Humphrey]

Im currently building a pauper cube and the only thing im missing are real duals. So, no. They werent a mistake. I wouldnt mind to see common Legendary Duals

[Stan]

Im currently building a pauper cube and the only thing im missing are real duals. So, no. They werent a mistake. I wouldnt mind to see common Legendary Duals

I lack duals in my pauper cube. Therefor them being printed was no mistake. Care to elaborate on the esoteric logic that doubtlessly is hidden somewhere in this post?

[Lord Seth]

The same price jumps happened to Modern staples too. Look at those fetchlands, Thoughtseizes and Lilianas. Good cards that see play and which are rare go up in value.

Even without the reserved list, I doubt they'd reprint dual lands. Those things are strictly better than basics (something they don't like to do), and they obsolete dozens of other good lands. It's a pity that certain stuff, for example Exploration, is on that list, because the game would benefit from a reprint of that card, but duals were a mistake.
Channel, Demonic Tutor, Gush, Mana Crypt, Memory Jar, Mystical Tutor, Necropotence, and Skullclamp were all reprinted, and they're a heck of a lot more powerful than the dual lands. I do not think this argument is valid.

[TsumiBand]

The same price jumps happened to Modern staples too. Look at those fetchlands, Thoughtseizes and Lilianas. Good cards that see play and which are rare go up in value.

Even without the reserved list, I doubt they'd reprint dual lands. Those things are strictly better than basics (something they don't like to do), and they obsolete dozens of other good lands. It's a pity that certain stuff, for example Exploration, is on that list, because the game would benefit from a reprint of that card, but duals were a mistake.

Nonbasics are not strictly better than basics.
Wasteland
Price of Progress
Back to Basics

...and so on.

[HammafistRoob]

^BLOOD MOON!!! But to be fair, some nonbasics get around shit like choke.


The same price jumps happened to Modern staples too. Look at those fetchlands, Thoughtseizes and Lilianas. Good cards that see play and which are rare go up in value.

Well it's not quite that black and white with Legacy staples. The dual lands sat around the 18-30 dollar range for like four years I believe, with Force of Will at ~15-20. Then StarCity started to warp the market and support the format at the same time(well played) causing a huge spike that seems to have reached a plateau for now.

Even without the reserved list, I doubt they'd reprint dual lands. Those things are strictly better than basics (something they don't like to do), and they obsolete dozens of other good lands. It's a pity that certain stuff, for example Exploration, is on that list, because the game would benefit from a reprint of that card, but duals were a mistake.

Exploration isn't on the list, but I know what you mean. I haven't heard any reasonable arguments supporting the list, ever. The list is dumb, it's gay, we all know this. But this is really starting to devolve into another Reserved List thread (as expected), sorry Stephen.

[Finn]

Nonbasics are not strictly better than basics.
Wasteland
Price of Progress
Back to Basics

...and so on.

I do not have a link here, but I am sure that I read a column on the mothership some years ago that included express language that the in the eyes of WOTC at least duals ARE strictly better than basics, and furthermore that the existence of nonbasic hate does not change that.

Also, I own 41 duals, and I would gladly see them reprinted. But I would prefer instead to see something that is not a either a strict or functional reprint to compete with them instead.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nice article. A bit long, but ok, it's about twenty years of history, so it can't be short.

Interesting what they did with duals. I see that the pain and citp drawbacks are used quite often. WotC could explore something else, I personally like FUT duals and the buddy and manlands are also quite powerful, aren't they?

On the RL and reprints of duals: Well, well, well, is there anything fresh and novel that hasn't been told yet? "RL is good cuz ur cardz hold valoo!" I just hate this stuff, and I'm tired of having people over-explain to me why it's secretly good for me, or good for the game. It's bullshit.

[SilverGreen]

The Reserved List does not have a "spirit." It has text that has changed over time.I feel really pissed everytime I see them methodically applying kind terms like "spirit" or "promisse" when refering to the Reserved List, as though they were a teenager making a swear of eternal love to his first girlfriend.

Companies don't make "promisses" with a "spirit", they sign contracts and create policies. And policies can be changed, as people change their minds (or are replaced). From the times it was small company managed by Peter Adkinson to the ones it became a giant owned by Hasbro, WotC has been changing all its previous goals and policies. The RL itself was changed many times since 1995. If at any time we're able to convince their executives that a judicial engagement with a dozen speculators is worth the effort, they'll abolish it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've just looked through the RL and must admit that keeping it is pretty reasonable. World won't be the same after the reprint of Land Tubes and Anaba Spirit Crafter.
"Dear Jenny, I'll love you eternaly and will never leave you."

[SilverGreen]

Ok, I know that "popular revolt" is a cultural feature not embraced by everyone, but do you think enough pressure from consumers on company's contact and media channels could induce a change in policy? I mean, we speculate very much about a judicial motivation for the RL, but according to MaRo's statement in his 2009 article Tweet Talk (http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/42), it really seems to be just a philosophical one. Would it really be just an idea, it could be changed. You know, time changes, ideas change. Eventually, even employees in a company are changed.

[TsumiBand]

Ok, I know that "popular revolt" is a cultural feature not embraced by everyone, but do you think enough pressure from consumers on company's contact and media channels could induce a change in policy? I mean, we speculate very much about a judicial motivation for the RL, but according to MaRo's statement in his 2009 article Tweet Talk (http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/42), it really seems to be just a philosophical one. Would it really be just an idea, it could be changed. You know, time changes, ideas change. Eventually, even employees in a company are changed.

Because Standard.

The primary focus is Standard. The most popular format is Standard. The format that makes them the most money has classically been Standard.

People that want things like Beta duals are a vocal but small minority. It's like Lorwyn supporters; Lorwyn performed poorly, but you wouldn't know it from the die-hards who are just up in arms about how there's probably never going to be a Return to Lorwyn block. It didn't perform well; as it happens, their target market of 13-something year olds prefers dark imagery to cuddly Kithkin. Quelle surprise.

[nedleeds]

Clearly, they just made Rare Coastal Tower that every Standard player will have to shell out $3-5 each for. Those will be worth a firm grip of my pubes when they rotate. But they'll sell boosters to standard sheep who continue to play a miserable format and fall prey to the rotation scam ... they couldn't do buddy lands again because people own them and thus won't need to buy boosters to get them.

[Dzra]

Honestly I don't have a problem with WotC making more money off of Standard. Standard existing and thriving is what carries the less popular formats like Legacy. That's fine. Even so, I'd be very happy to see WotC support Legacy more. I'd even settle for them hindering Legacy less (doing away with or fixing the Reserved List). Like Finn, I own well over a playset of duals (probably 60 or so) and would love to see them print duals or functional reprints. Hell, SCG probably has more money in duals than any of us and even they would like the Reserved List gone.

[TsumiBand]

Clearly, they just made Rare Coastal Tower that every Standard player will have to shell out $3-5 each for. Those will be worth a firm grip of my pubes when they rotate. But they'll sell boosters to standard sheep who continue to play a miserable format and fall prey to the rotation scam ... they couldn't do buddy lands again because people own them and thus won't need to buy boosters to get them.

See this is the thing that just kills me about the Core Set. I've said as much before but I keep coming back to this because it doesn't make sense to me; it seems like people are so turned off at the idea of all of their shit rotating that they don't just go play Modern or Legacy but they fall back to like EDH or just lurk or sell their shit. The Core Set used to be boring dumb stuff, none of this "50% new cards, now featuring more mid-range jank" stuff, but some of it was staples and so people could just drop in and play again. Does it seriously make more sense for WotC to force everyone to buy all new shit every Standard season? New players are buying all-new stuff anyway; instead of making that older player lurk or skulk around the EDH tables, maybe keep letting the Core Set be a touchstone for reprints so that older players might randomly go "think I'll try Standard for a minute" and actually buy new product.

I thought maybe they were going to at least try and do that with the m10 taplands - push out painlands in favor of the "not-dual" m10 duals, but apparently that can't happen, reasons reasons reasons.

[Lord Seth]

Because Standard.

The primary focus is Standard. The most popular format is Standard. The format that makes them the most money has classically been Standard.
But that doesn't explain the reason to keep the Reserved List. If it was just "screw Legacy, we just want to support Standard and not anything else" then they never would've bothered creating Modern in the first place, nor would they have made Modern Masters.


People that want things like Beta duals are a vocal but small minority.
But you can make the exact same claim about the expensive stuff in Modern as well. But again, Modern Masters.


It's like Lorwyn supporters; Lorwyn performed poorly, but you wouldn't know it from the die-hards who are just up in arms about how there's probably never going to be a Return to Lorwyn block. It didn't perform well; as it happens, their target market of 13-something year olds prefers dark imagery to cuddly Kithkin. Quelle surprise.
That wasn't the only issue with Lorwyn, though. It also had the problem of having an overemphasis on the tribal theme (compare Onslaught, which had a strong tribal gimmick but didn't do it to the extent Lorwyn did) and also the dominance of Faeries left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. The setting might not have been popular, but that was far from the only thing that players disliked about it.


Clearly, they just made Rare Coastal Tower that every Standard player will have to shell out $3-5 each for. Those will be worth a firm grip of my pubes when they rotate. But they'll sell boosters to standard sheep who continue to play a miserable format and fall prey to the rotation scam ... they couldn't do buddy lands again because people own them and thus won't need to buy boosters to get them.
I like Standard. I can understand why some people might not like it, but calling it a "miserable format" is really overblown. And the rotation isn't a scam either, it's actually really important to the game because it means they don't have to constantly one-up the power every single set to get people to keep buying boosters like everyone says Yu-Gi-Oh constantly does.

Heck, Standard rotation is actually really critical for Legacy, because without that, they'd have to push the power every single set for the above reasons and Legacy would basically be what Standard is now, because anything prior to the last few sets would be unplayable due to the power creep. Maybe you don't like Standard the format, but you should definitely appreciate it because Legacy wouldn't exist as it does without it.

And if the problem with buddylands was that people wouldn't need to buy boosters to get them then they wouldn't have kept them around for four core sets in a row. The reason they gave, which I agree with, is that they have such amazing synergy with the shocklands that it made manabases ridiculous. Which was fun to do for one season (heck, they said that's why they kept it around in Magic 2013), especially due to said season focusing on Return to Ravnica, but it's time to reign it in a bit and have there be an actual downside to 3-color decks again.

[nedleeds]

Number Card Name
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Firefist Striker
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler
21 Mountain
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

That won a 400 person open. That's miserable. They could have printed Legendary - Swamp Island. It wouldn't have impacted legacy (for me anyway as I'd never need to play them).

[Lord Seth]

Number Card Name
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Firefist Striker
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler
21 Mountain
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

That won a 400 person open. That's miserable.
I fail to see how that makes it "miserable."


They could have printed Legendary - Swamp Island. It wouldn't have impacted legacy (for me anyway as I'd never need to play them).
The fetchlands are likely going to be in the next block (or at least they will be if Wizards actually cares about supporting Modern as much as they claim). Fetches+duals is ridiculous in Standard, even if they are legendary.

Plus I wonder if Legendary dual lands might violate that "spirit of the Reserved List" they're always going on about. Personally I think "spirit of the Reserved List" is nonsense but it's apparently a decision made by the higher-ups rather than R&D.

[nedleeds]

That's basically grizzly bear . dec plus some awful shit burn spells ... if that deck is the zenith of what is happening in standard than that's miserable.

[TsumiBand]

But that doesn't explain the reason to keep the Reserved List. If it was just "screw Legacy, we just want to support Standard and not anything else" then they never would've bothered creating Modern in the first place, nor would they have made Modern Masters.

Okay, here's the context of the "popular revolt" put forth by the other poster.

WotC: "We have a Reserve List, which we once tried to sneak around but now we 'have to' lock it down, so we're going to."
Revolters: "Argh! We feel this is awful and demand you reconsider!"
WotC: "Well, we can't do those things, we hate the list but can no longer try to circumvent it."
Revolters: "Then we, the united masses demanding our dual lands and Soraya the Falconer reprints; we swear on all that we hold dear that we will take action! We will circulate petitions amongst like-minded individuals! We will raise a stink about it at every public forum you attend! We will refrain from purchasing your product until such time as you dissolve this backwards policy and let us have our new-border dual lands!!"
WotC: "Okay, so that's... a surprisingly small number of you* that actually even care enough about dual lands to quit buying our product. Hunh. I guess we'll take $0.000013 out of everyone's Christmas bonus this year to cover the cost, and wonder why we should worry folks like you when we have all these 13-to-20-somethings with money they don't care about and an average player's lifespan of about 18 months. They don't seem to care if we reprint Taiga; they're just happy to get a mythic 5/5 Dragon for :3::r::r: that deals snow damage to blue enchantments when it enters the battlefield. No, we don't know what that is either. Yet."

As for all that stuff about Modern Masters and Modern the format and "why bother if they don't care about anything but Standard" - Modern is an Eternal format where all the cards look the same (save Time Spiral Block, w/e) and the design team has a higher degree of control over things like "Blue = Best Color" and that. After spending so much time trying to change their approach and move the game to the battlefield and away from the stack, I'm not sure why they would *not* want such a format. Those Standard cards need to have some place to go when they die that Wizards seems to care about.

* - the figure I've always heard was that competitive Eternal players were something like 1% of the player base. Unfortunately I can't seem to find anything that backs it up, but it's something of a forgone conclusion that this kind of player is such a minority that there is no ability to collectively 'wag the dog', as it were, on this issue.

[SilverGreen]

Okay, here's the context of the "popular revolt" put forth by the other poster.
*Stuff*And that's the motivation for the quotation marks and the "a cultural feature not embraced by everyone". :p

Put this oversimplified way, you really put it in the angry-marxist-teenager realm. But the question is full with nuances and ramifications I thought were all well known at this point, and that I really don't have the disposal to bring back one more time. But whatever. Still on the oversimplification realm, perhaps some "masses demanding their dual lands" are still better than other resignated masses quietly supporting the... well... "spirit" of a "promisse". :)

[TsumiBand]

And that's the motivation for the quotation marks and the "a cultural feature not embraced by everyone". :p

Put this oversimplified way, you really put it in the angry-marxist-teenager realm. But the question is full with nuances and ramifications I thought were all well known at this point, and that I really don't have the disposal to bring back one more time. But whatever. Still on the oversimplification realm, perhaps some "masses demanding their dual lands" are still better than other resignated masses quietly supporting the... well... "spirit" of a "promisse". :)

Well I don't plan on being silent, if that's what you think I meant. Nor am I advocating such an approach. I just think it's an uphill battle against a dead issue, but there's nothing that says I can't be a pissy douche about it.

I realize I tend to speak in simile, probably to a fault, and it comes off as, what did that one guy say one time -- egregious hyperbole? -- yeah. I'm generally posting between breaks at work so it isn't like I have time to mull over my posts, and I just find it a quick way to sum up my thoughts. No "angry teenage Marxist" vibe intended.

It is not a lie that people who have a vested interest in seeing the Reprint Policy vanquished represent a minority of the consumer base, so much so that whether or not Wizards ever goes back on it, the putative backlask would be akin to a coal car finding an angry penny on the train tracks. I wish I could find the old (and it was old, to be sure) source which justifies the percentage estimate I gave in the previous post, but I cannot -- which I also understand to be tantamount to speculation at best.

Look, here's the thing. For Eternal players this has been a hot-button issue since before it was "an issue". That is to say, people talked about it 10 years ago when I first started playing and it was less of a problem because duals were like 10 a pop, Lotus was 250 and guys like me could show up to a Vintage tournament with Onslaught Block Goblins + Lackey and Lightning Bolt and place 2nd. It was talked about when sweet things like Masticore and Phyrexian Negator could appear as premium product, for judges or in precons or what-have-you, because that meant it could even be whittled away or dissolved. It was most certainly talked about when it was re-upped and locked down in 2010, because that meant that the collectors won and the players lost, and there would assuredly be no supplemental product to format staples. It gets talked about when Rosewater talks out of both sides of his mouth; near-miss reprints "happen all the time, just look at Thunder Spirit" but when you get a little *too* close like Fork v. Reverberate, suddenly everyone loses their minds and people get pulled into offices and screamed at about the "spirit of the Reserve List".

That's part hyperbole again, but that whole spirit vs. letter thing isn't even my idea -- those are all Rosewater's words, not mine. And they stand contrary to people like the OP who firmly state there IS no spirit to the Reprint Policy, because clearly it is applied often enough that it matters. So, we might see more 2/2s for 2W with an ability, great -- but Snow duals, Forks that aren't Forks, things like that, those just can't happen. Tabak and Rosewater have been pretty clear on that.

[nedleeds]

The promise and it's spirit (which I don't buy into) are about preserving value. The value of alpha duals will still go up if they are reprinted judiciously. Especially the value of the most collectible versions (see: alpha, beta Wrath of God, Birds of Paradise, Shivan Dragon, Hypnotic Specter, etc. all cards that have been printed into oblivion).

A chronicles style reprint, a massive walmart style print run of new frame duals would probably impact the least collectible duals (Revised, Unlimited) pretty sharply (anyone want to guess? -50%). this would be bumped up against an expected increase in interest in a format that plays good cards and not 22 mountain.dec.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

TsumiBand, I love you.

[SilverGreen]

Well I don't plan on being silent, if that's what you think I meant. Nor am I advocating such an approach. I just think it's an uphill battle against a dead issue, but there's nothing that says I can't be a pissy douche about it.

I realize I tend to speak in simile, probably to a fault, and it comes off as, what did that one guy say one time -- egregious hyperbole? -- yeah. I'm generally posting between breaks at work so it isn't like I have time to mull over my posts, and I just find it a quick way to sum up my thoughts. No "angry teenage Marxist" vibe intended.

It is not a lie that people who have a vested interest in seeing the Reprint Policy vanquished represent a minority of the consumer base, so much so that whether or not Wizards ever goes back on it, the putative backlask would be akin to a coal car finding an angry penny on the train tracks. I wish I could find the old (and it was old, to be sure) source which justifies the percentage estimate I gave in the previous post, but I cannot -- which I also understand to be tantamount to speculation at best.

Look, here's the thing. For Eternal players this has been a hot-button issue since before it was "an issue". That is to say, people talked about it 10 years ago when I first started playing and it was less of a problem because duals were like 10 a pop, Lotus was 250 and guys like me could show up to a Vintage tournament with Onslaught Block Goblins + Lackey and Lightning Bolt and place 2nd. It was talked about when sweet things like Masticore and Phyrexian Negator could appear as premium product, for judges or in precons or what-have-you, because that meant it could even be whittled away or dissolved. It was most certainly talked about when it was re-upped and locked down in 2010, because that meant that the collectors won and the players lost, and there would assuredly be no supplemental product to format staples. It gets talked about when Rosewater talks out of both sides of his mouth; near-miss reprints "happen all the time, just look at Thunder Spirit" but when you get a little *too* close like Fork v. Reverberate, suddenly everyone loses their minds and people get pulled into offices and screamed at about the "spirit of the Reserve List".

That's part hyperbole again, but that whole spirit vs. letter thing isn't even my idea -- those are all Rosewater's words, not mine. And they stand contrary to people like the OP who firmly state there IS no spirit to the Reprint Policy, because clearly it is applied often enough that it matters. So, we might see more 2/2s for 2W with an ability, great -- but Snow duals, Forks that aren't Forks, things like that, those just can't happen. Tabak and Rosewater have been pretty clear on that.I respectifully disagree of this vision as a whole (but agree with the "legendual" thing). But really, it isn't something I could express in a couple paragraphs, as I collect some three years worth of personal reflections on the subject (yet almost all of them in my mother language, and almost none of them shared with you guys at Source). I'll try to put those ideas together in some kind of cohesive post later. I really think the discussion is still worth, and although all the subjects could have been discussed in some degree already, I believe we still have a lot of opportunities of changing a little their focus.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

4 Ash Zealot (intro) 1:50
4 Boros Reckoner 3:34
4 Burning-Tree Emissary 2:54
4 Chandra's Phoenix (Manowar tribute) 7:41
4 Fanatic of Mogis 1:28
4 Firefist Striker (Pyogenesis tribute) 2:54
1 Gore-House Chainwalker (guest vocal Martin "Cyklo" Cvilink) 5:10
4 Rakdos Cackler 4:21
21 Mountain (Bathory tribute) 27:14
4 Lightning Strike (Napalm Death tribute) 0:27
4 Magma Jet (live at CBGB's) 3:12
2 Shock (vinyl version bonus) 4:11

:confused:

As much as I'd love if something happens about the RL, I don't think WotC ever touch it. They'd have removed it years ago, imho. But it's sad - wouldn't it be lovely to have modern-framed chinese FoWs and stuff, so that one may finish the deck completely in one language, border and frame?

[Megadeus]

The promise and it's spirit (which I don't buy into) are about preserving value. The value of alpha duals will still go up if they are reprinted judiciously. Especially the value of the most collectible versions (see: alpha, beta Wrath of God, Birds of Paradise, Shivan Dragon, Hypnotic Specter, etc. all cards that have been printed into oblivion).

A chronicles style reprint, a massive walmart style print run of new frame duals would probably impact the least collectible duals (Revised, Unlimited) pretty sharply (anyone want to guess? -50%). this would be bumped up against an expected increase in interest in a format that plays good cards and not 22 mountain.dec.

This. I just want more people playing a good format. Modern seems fun to dick around in, but it is no where near the level of excitement that Legacy or Vintage (the few times Ive played it) has brought me

[Dzra]

Magic is great. Legacy is the most skill-testing constructed format in Magic. Legacy receives all sorts of praise from pro players and casual players alike on how diverse and fun of a format Legacy is. And let's not forget how much money could be made by offering boosters and precons featuring popular Legacy staples! Therefore, as Wizards of the Coast, we should offer very little support for the format, both in terms of (re)printings as well as high level tournament play. Makes sense.... right guys?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Magic is great. Legacy is the most skill-testing constructed format in Magic. Legacy receives all sorts of praise from pro players and casual players alike on how diverse and fun of a format Legacy is. And let's not forget how much money could be made by offering boosters and precons featuring popular Legacy staples! Therefore, as Wizards of the Coast, we should offer very little support for the format, both in terms of (re)printings as well as high level tournament play. Makes sense.... right guys?
I think I found my new sig. :smile:

[Smmenen]

The real evidence is how piss poor Wizards is doing of supporting Legacy online. Shameful.

[Dzra]

I think I found my new sig. :smile:

Haha, happy to help!


The real evidence is how piss poor Wizards is doing of supporting Legacy online. Shameful.

I've been wanting to buy into Legacy online for a while now, but my conscious hasn't quite let me go too deep. The problem for me has been that the prices seem high for just a bunch of completely digital products. At least if I buy paper staples, I can be really confident that they will retain or even gain value. I'm not too knowledgeable of their tournament support though, so that hasn't really been a big consideration yet. What are your major issues with Legacy on MTGO?