[Deck] Ur Landstill

[pandaman]

Edit: the defining list is Lam Phan's GP Top 8 beast. Although he lost out to Infect in the Top 8 he crushed through the metagame with manland beats under Standstill, eschewing the much more popular draw engine, Treasure Cruise. Although Cruise has been banned and the metagame has changed, Lam's list is still a good place to start.

*LANDS

4*Wasteland

4*Scalding Tarn

4*Mishra's Factory

4*Volcanic Island

2*Snow-Covered Island

2*Faerie Conclave

1*Snow-Covered Mountain

1*Wooded Foothills

1*Misty Rainforest

1*Flooded Strand

3 CREATURES

3*Snapcaster Mage

29 INSTANTS and SORC.

4*Stifle

4*Lightning Bolt

4*Brainstorm

4*Force of Will

3*Spell Pierce

3*Spell Snare

3*Sudden Shock

2*Counterspell

1*Dig Through Time

1*Treasure Cruise

4 OTHER SPELLS

3*Standstill

1*Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD

1*Red Elemental Blast

4*Relic of Progenitus

2*Surgical Extraction

2*Pyroblast

3*Pyroclasm

2*Engineered Explosives

1*Flusterstorm



Note - primer in progress, please bear with me!

Conception

I have always liked Landstill. Playing the Legacy-legal Ancestral Recall seems to have waned in popularity lately but I still love drawing 3 and the frown-inducing 2-cost Blue enchantment that could.

But how to keep it viable? I enjoyed the emergence of Abrupt Decay in Legacy and played UBg Landstill for a while but I got onto thinking about other colours when I identified (subsequently highlighted by Carsten Cotter in his article '10 to try' [editor's note: correct name and URL to come]) that Pyroclasm is insane in the format right now. All the Elves, Deathrite Shaman, Noble Hierarch, Stoneforge Mystic, pretty much every creature in Death & Taxes, Shardless Agent, Snapcaster Mage, Vendillion Clique, Merfolk of all size and description (subject to pump from Lords) - Pyroclasm kills then all for the bargain -basement cost of a colourless and a red.

I decided to abandon the UBg Landstill shell and see what Ur had to offer.

This is what I've developed so far.

Ur Landstill by pandaman - 4 September 2013


Lands (25)

2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring

Instants (22)

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm

Planeswalkers (4)

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments (4)

4 Standstill

Artifacts (4)

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Sorceries (2)

2 Pyroclasm

Sideboard (15)

2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dismember
2 Firespout
2 Ancient Grudge

Preboard strategy

In short, hang around and kill or counter creatures until you can resolve a Standstill, accumulate card advantage into a Jace or a Crucible for a fateseal or recurring manland win.

Pyroclasm helps you gain advantage with favourable 2 and 3 for 1s as its low cost allows it to be available early. Engineered Explosives is excellent at handling planeswalkers, as is Lightning Bolt. A significant counter package allows you to win the counter war the majority of the time.

Postboard strategy

Post board, the deck can shore up its weaknesses. Force of Wills can come out for Firespouts and Dismembers against creature decks. Against fellow control decks Red Elemental Blasts provide good answers for Jace and Counterbalance both on the stack and on the battlefield. Against combo, stack in as many counter spells as you can. Ancient Grudge deals with artifacts for good value, and Relic of Progenitus doubles as graveyard hate and Mongoose and Goyf-shrinker extrordinaire.

The deck is quite strong against aggro, aggro control and control strategies, where it assumes the role of the control deck most of the time, forcing the opponent into plays. However, it is somewhat weak against combo, RUG Delver, and big creatures such as Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf. If you don't have a counter for something with toughness of more than 3, you have to rely on your 2-of Engineered Explosives, which isn't ideal.

All in all, the Red performs better than I expected it to. Staying 2 colours versus 3 is great for man's consistency, and Lightning Bolt finishes both planeswalkers and players off nicely. And NO ONE sees Pyroclasm coming maindeck!

The deck needs work. A single dual in a fourth colour would allow the deck to Engineered Explosives for 4 and kill Jace. Submerge seems like a great sideboard card. Fire//Ice could replace 2 of the Counter spells in the deck to give some utility and increased possibilities for value.

Please, help tune with me!

[pandaman]

Reserved for specific matchup analysis and further expansion of primer.

[SirTylerGalt]

I love U/R Landstill. I remember an interesting discussion about it a few months ago, which you might like: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25439-UR-StifleStill

[pandaman]

I love U/R Landstill. I remember an interesting discussion about it a few months ago, which you might like: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25439-UR-StifleStill

Thank you for that link, Sir, was very interesting reading. I got a lot out of it.

Looking at the above list, I have some immediate changes I will make and try out:

-1 Volcanic Island +1 Underground Sea

I really want to be able to Engineered Explosives for CMC 4 permanents, it gives the deck a lot more resiliency against Jace and Elspeth.

-1 Misty Rainforest +1 Island.

I really want to be able to run off all basics if necessary.

-1 Counterspell +1 Fire//Ice.

I think 3 Counterspell is good when I might not reliably make UU on Turn 2. I will give Fire//Ice a try for good utility potential.

Other changes I am thinking about are:

To Snapcaster or not to Snapcaster?
A 5th (or more) manland?
Is Izzet Charm actually that good?
A third Pyroclasm?

Would appreciate your thoughts.

[frogger42]

I'm trying to run Landstill right now, and Wasteland + Factory is a pain because of the lack of blue. I like switching out a Waste or two for Tolaria West, which also gets Eng Exp. And 7 Fetches is probably high, I think 5-6 is generally good enough (I tend to run 4-5 - I like having more lands to fetch out).
Pyroclasm's a neat idea, but I think I still really like Supreme Verdict.

[pandaman]

I'm trying to run Landstill right now, and Wasteland + Factory is a pain because of the lack of blue. I like switching out a Waste or two for Tolaria West, which also gets Eng Exp. And 7 Fetches is probably high, I think 5-6 is generally good enough (I tend to run 4-5 - I like having more lands to fetch out).
Pyroclasm's a neat idea, but I think I still really like Supreme Verdict.

I get the pain of not having enough blue mana sometimes. That is a big reason why I'm considering whether I should be running Counterspell and Izzet Charm, or whether I should be cutting them and running things like Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Fire//Ice, which don't require UU or UR and can be cast with 1 colourless mana.

I also agree that I might not need 7 Fetches. I might try to cut down to 6. Thanks for the suggestion.

I used to run a singleton Tolaria West in UW Landstill, but I just absolutely hate CIPT lands... it's one of the main reasons I hate Faerie Conclave. Also, again, it's UU to transmute. But it is certainly not off the table and I will make sure to test it again.

Finally, I do love me some Supreme Verdict, but I am trying to attack the meta a bit more with this deck, for which Pyroclasm seems very good value.

[frogger42]

Finally, I do love me some Supreme Verdict, but I am trying to attack the meta a bit more with this deck, for which Pyroclasm seems very good value.

Yeah, I think Pyroclasm might actually be fairly legit. I'd probably max out on it while playtesting just to see how useful it is in the meta, then cut down to 2-3. Wrath always was a 1-2 of because of casting cost, but having a wrath at 2 mana might change that traditional idea.
Also, Firespout used to be pretty decent. I'd still try running Pyroclasm over it, but just make a mental note when that extra damage (Mongoose and maybe Lodestone Golem, Merfolk) would make a difference.

The CIP on Tolaria West does suck, but so does pitching double-Waste hands. I like doing 2 because multiple Wastes aren't any more special with Crucible anyway. Waste-lock isn't what it used to be nowadays.
Good luck with testing!

[Qweerios]

As much as I love UR landstill, It never compares to white. I have tried and tried multiple times to make it work but there are too many drawbacks of going red and very little benefits.

1) Sending a Bolt to the face is 99.9% win-more because by the time we start inflicting damage, we have a good grip on the board. Compared to StP, it doesn't answer all creatures (Goyf, Tombstalker, KotR mostly) and as soon as a single one sticks, we get a headache.

2) If your opponent plays a Liliana or Elspeth, he will immediatly be out of Bolt range. A single fateseal also puts Jace out of Bolt range. It is much easier to save counters for a planeswalker than it is to save them for every Goyf your opponent plays.

3) Even though Pyroclasm is an extremely powerful card at the moment, it isn't good enough for Landstill because it doesn't provide the required effect of sweeping the board unconditionally. You are left with the same problems as article 1.

4) REB/Pyro are a welcomed addition but I don't think they make up for the loss of Elspeth, Supreme Verdict, Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere, Disenchant, Humility, Moat, Enlightened Tutor...

If you want to be in control of the game, you have to react to your opponent accordingly. Relying on multiple cards to handle a single one is doomed to fail. It is hard enough as it is to find everything you need by drawing 3 cards or brainstorming, I can't imagine finding the right cards in time when my opponent's turn 2 play puts me on a 4-5 turn clock. Overall when you compare red to white as a complementary color for a dedicated control landstill deck, white wins by a significant margin.

...On to constructive criticism!

I would recommend Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, and Faerie Conclave for a UR list. Trying to play all-out control won't work for the reasons stated above. One of the strong points of a red splash in landstill is that you can easely flashback your sweeper and get additional reach with Bolts. Snapcaster on Bolt answers planeswalkers much better than a lone bolt and can potentially block and kill a Goyf by flashing a Bolt. The big selling point of flash creatures for landstill is that they are the quickest path to board superiority while leaving mana open for counterspells. A turn 2 Snapcaster was a frequent play of mine because it forced my opponent to blow up my turn 3 Standstill. Clique and Conclave both fly and will put evasive pressure on your opponent in the cases that you don't have answers to, say, a Goyf but that you manage to stall him or get your opponent low enough to race and finish him with Bolts. In other words, having flying flash creatures gives the reach of Bolt a bit more relevance. As a bonus to all that, Faerie Conclave is a blue source that will untap through Choke.

4 copies of Counterspell is too many with 14 blue sources... Well, 14 blue sources is too low to begin with, I suggest going up at at least 16-18. You don't need a basic Mountain because your opponent will always be able to set you back with Wastelands... And for Blood Moon, you get the point. The early stages of the game is where you will have the most trouble, I suggest cutting at least 2 Counterspells for another Spell Snare and another Spell Pierce. Spell Snare is crucial for any UR Control deck. Most card advantage cards tend to be 2 mana as well (SFM, Snap, Hymn, Strix, CB, Foundry, Chalice, Bob).

One way that I found to increase my colored sources was to replace 2 of my 4 Wastelands for 2 Tropical Islands and replaced 2 Crucibles with 1 Intuition and 1 Life from the Loam. By doing so I splashed into green for EE @3, SB Krosan Grip for Counterbalance, and I enabled Intuition piles with LftL + Academy Ruins + EE/Zuran Orb/Pithing Needle/Vedalken Shackles. You will inevitably end up drawing less Wastelands but you will draw more blue lands. You can also achieve a Wastelock with LftL and 2 Wastelands via Intuition. Another really important aspect of LftL is that, unlike Crucible, it doesn't get Decayed (deck is Decay-proof now) and it puts 3 cards in your hand for you to convert into fuel via Jace or Brainstorm. Being URg with Intuition and LftL also gives you access to Punishing Grove as well. A single copy of each is enough to get the recursion going with a single Intuition.

This might be a crazy idea but they just printed a 2RG Planeswalker that puts 2/2 Haste tokens on the battlefield, perhaps he's worth looking into as an Elspeth replacement.

[Mesercus]

Agree with qweerios this deck could work if tuned to use the red splash strenght: tempo and a clock so you can end the game with damage instead of fatesealing.
-1 barbarian ring , +1 island.
i'd cut a couple of counterspells for 2 cheap rebounds

[pandaman]

Thanks for the comments, very helpful. I agree, I have been thinking about it more and more and I came to the same conclusion that, for a control Standstill build, White is strictly better. I agree that Red should focus more on being tempo-inclined.

So the immediate changes are some that have been suggested: Snapcaster Mage, Vendillion Clique and Faerie Conclave in, Counterspell out and replaced with more copies of Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. Jace number reduced down.

Will see how it plays out at next week's local tourney.

[pandaman]

Here is my updated list, which I intend to take to next week's local weekly tournament:

Maindeck (61)

Land (24)

1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (4)

4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants (26)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Intuition

Sorceries (1)

1 Life from the Loam

Enchantments (4)

4 Standstill

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts (1)

1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)

4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam


I have taken on board the use of Red - including Lightning Bolt in a deck almost by necessity changes its focus to tempo, by virtue of the fact that it does direct damage. Also, with the use of Snapcaster, you can Bolt, EoT flash in Snapcaster, flash back Bolt, then swing the next turn. Even better, you drop a Standstill before you swing the next turn! That's 8 damage and some good card advantage going.

Still sticking to a high land count, with 24. However, I've increased the man-land count to 6 to better support the tempo strategy under Standstill.

I have put a lot of conditional counters in the deck - Pierce and Mana Leak - to allow the deck to (hopefully) operate off two basic lands while the other mana is used for animating man-lands and swinging.

Stifle gets the nod because it has excellent synergy with Wasteland and supports the tempo strategy.

Finally, a smattering of control elements complete the package: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and an Intuition package (for Loam, Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives). This reduces my Abrupt Decay exposure to zero.

Essentially, the strategy will be early-game disruption with soft counters, Stifle and Wasteland, sneak in a Snapcaster/play a man-land and start the beats under a Standstill, using it to refill with answers. Certainly, I aim to make it a lot harder for Green decks to stick Mongeese, Goyfs and Knights.

[SirTylerGalt]

Here is my updated list, which I intend to take to next week's local weekly tournament:

Maindeck (61)

Land (24)

1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (4)

4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants (26)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Intuition

Sorceries (1)

1 Life from the Loam

Enchantments (4)

4 Standstill

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts (1)

1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)

4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam



I think you need a second Tropical Island for the Loam package. If you run a single green mana-source, they can shut down Loam by wasting it.

[Norm]

Is Grim Lavamancer not awesome in this deck, especially with the current meta?

I feel like Grim + Wasteland is super good against 3-4 color decks with Deathrite Shaman to lean on.

[Malakai]

Standstill is not a viable card. It hasn't been for a couple years now.

[thefreakaccident]

Standstill is not a viable card. It hasn't been for a couple years now.


This is definitely still a good card, nothing has changed that. It is still an ancestral recall for two, cannot be stifled nor abrupt decayed. It is still at the very least as fast as a cascade into ancestral visions.

[Survex]

This is definitely still a good card, nothing has changed that. It is still an ancestral recall for two, cannot be stifled nor abrupt decayed. It is still at the very least as fast as a cascade into ancestral visions.

To the OP.

I've been having pretty good success with Landstill, but I would suggest running Crucible of Worlds somewhere in that sixty and if you are going to run academy ruins you could consider nevinyrral's disk as disk locking people is pretty gg. I don't like Barbarian Ring at all I would recommend playing another fetchland and some brainstorms. In regards to Stifle, that card is just insane. I am not sure I would ever play a blue deck without it, it just has way too many applications. Can randomly blow people out by Stifling: Living Weapon, Batterskull's Bounce ability, can get opp's Ancestral Visions off suspend, storm, fetchlands and more. The way you want to play UR is being very aggressive and play the tempo game and aggressively attack with Factories. Surprisingly they actually die fairly fast.

Original UR List from xShockwaveX
U/R Landstill

3x Standstill
3x Spell Snare
3x Spell Pierce
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stifle
1x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ratchet Bomb or Engineered Explosives

4x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Faerie Conclave
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest

I was playing this but I did find that I needed a way to deal with some boom-booms like Goyf, or honestly just have extra removal. I went with the greedy way of adding white to the deck. I'm not sure that the way I added it into the manabase was correct or even ideal, but it played good.

URw Landstill

3 Standstill
3 Spell pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Stifle
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm

4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Faerie Conclave

Sideboard:
3 Relic of progenitus
2 Surgical extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear/Tear
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm


To finish off I loved the way the above list played and I actually felt like I had no hard matchups or everything just came down to like player skill or decisions during the match. The only cards I can see being literally impossible to beat is Thrun and a resolved Blood Moon/Back to Basics. Literally the only way to deal with Thrun is playing Crucible of Worlds and land locking yourself with Mishra's Factories which is only parity and not actually beating the card.

[pandaman]

0-4 at the local last night. Even managed to lost a game against TES where he cracked 3 of my Standstills and I had a Snapcaster Mage beating since Turn 3 under a Standstill. No counters to be seen for hi Silence after drawing 9 cards off a Standstill and 2 Brainstorms.

A little upset, but it happens.

Thoughts on the latest incarnation of the list.

Intuition package blows, give me back my Crucible of Worlds!

Barbarian Ring is meant for a more controlling build of Land still, it is getting cut.

I need more removal of some description. Maybe a White slash for Swords to Plowshares? You would have to try and be disciplined in using it though, only when necessary because it messes up your tempo game.

New list to come shortly...

[pandaman]

@Survex, thank you for contributing! And I like your list, I think my list is likely to go the way yours is. Congratulations on your latest finish with it, well done!

[Mesercus]

try some steal-creatures cards ;)

[MGB]

Here is a UR Landstill deck that did well at a Vintage tournament:

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11108&iddeck=81139



1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dismember
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Enchantments [4]
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [7]
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

Lands [24]
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Goblin Welder
1 Firespout



This list is very portable to Legacy. Take out Library, Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and the two Moxen. Sub 4 Counterspell for the 4 Mana Drain.

I feel as if it is a mistake to go with Snapcaster Mages. Landstill is a *control* deck, not a tempo deck. All Snapcaster does is provide a body attached to an answer in the graveyard. Instead, what Landstill realy wants is bulk quantities of answers and the cheapest possible answers. Snapcastering a Counterspell means you are playing a 4 mana counterspell and the 2/1 body is often not that important to you because all you want to do is control the board and land a Jace.

I would definitely stick with the 4 Jace, 4 Standstill, 4 Counterspell, 4 Force build and go heavy on the Engineered Explosives.

Also worthy of consideration is a Blood Moon in the sideboard.

[Survex]

Here is a UR Landstill deck that did well at a Vintage tournament:

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11108&iddeck=81139




This list is very portable to Legacy. Take out Library, Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and the two Moxen. Sub 4 Counterspell for the 4 Mana Drain.

I feel as if it is a mistake to go with Snapcaster Mages. Landstill is a *control* deck, not a tempo deck. All Snapcaster does is provide a body attached to an answer in the graveyard. Instead, what Landstill realy wants is bulk quantities of answers and the cheapest possible answers. Snapcastering a Counterspell means you are playing a 4 mana counterspell and the 2/1 body is often not that important to you because all you want to do is control the board and land a Jace.

I would definitely stick with the 4 Jace, 4 Standstill, 4 Counterspell, 4 Force build and go heavy on the Engineered Explosives.

Also worthy of consideration is a Blood Moon in the sideboard.


I couldn't disagree more with a 4 Jace build, 4 Counterspell build. Counterspell actually has been pretty slow (especially on the draw) and I often dread having them in certain matchups and recently just went from 3 to 2. I think you underestimate the power of Snapcaster Mage when all your relevant spells cost U or R or W. Actually just dropping Snapcaster as a 2/1 EOT then following it up with a Standstill provides a lot of pressure. The card just does so much for the deck and I think it's exactly where you want to be. Jace on the other hand I think could be good in a straight up UW shell, but based off experience playing in this metagame (delver, shardless bug, show and tell, etc), I almost always shuffled Jace away via brainstorm fetches because I feel so vunerable on the tap out or get blown out by a daze, etc.

Bloodmoon as a suggestion for the board is probably one of the most unplayable ideas I have ever heard of for a "Landstill" deck. The whole purpose is to get ahead on the board, then aggressively drop a Standstill with manland/snapcaster beat down, or even crucible wasteland lock.

[humppa]

Jace is not that good if you have counterspell instead of ma na drain.

And this vintage build has troubles with creature decks in vintage. It would be horible in Legacy.

[MGB]

Jace is not that good if you have counterspell instead of ma na drain.

And this vintage build has troubles with creature decks in vintage. It would be horible in Legacy.

On the contrary, it is one of the best decks in Vintage vs. creatures. Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Pyroclasm, and Jace all combine to give it very good game vs creature decks (in Vintage - those are basically the Human Caverns decks, creature-heavy Workshop builds, and BUG Tarmogoyf lists).

Jace is ALWAYS good, no matter what countermagic you are playing. Is it easier to cast Jace when you play Mana Drain? Of course, but that doens't mean it's bad without Drain. I mean, it's obviously played in Legacy control decks already. It is probably one of the best 5 blue cards ever printed and in some situations (later in the game) I would rather have Jace than even Ancestral Recall.

[MGB]

I couldn't disagree more with a 4 Jace build, 4 Counterspell build. Counterspell actually has been pretty slow (especially on the draw) and I often dread having them in certain matchups and recently just went from 3 to 2. I think you underestimate the power of Snapcaster Mage when all your relevant spells cost U or R or W. Actually just dropping Snapcaster as a 2/1 EOT then following it up with a Standstill provides a lot of pressure. The card just does so much for the deck and I think it's exactly where you want to be. Jace on the other hand I think could be good in a straight up UW shell, but based off experience playing in this metagame (delver, shardless bug, show and tell, etc), I almost always shuffled Jace away via brainstorm fetches because I feel so vunerable on the tap out or get blown out by a daze, etc.

Bloodmoon as a suggestion for the board is probably one of the most unplayable ideas I have ever heard of for a "Landstill" deck. The whole purpose is to get ahead on the board, then aggressively drop a Standstill with manland/snapcaster beat down, or even crucible wasteland lock.

You are vastly overrating Snapcaster Mage.

Every time you play a Snapcaster Mage you are basically adding mana cost to one of your answers. A flashbacked Counterspell becomes a 1UUU counter. A flashbacked Lightning Bolt becomes a 1UR bolt. A flashbacked Brainstorm becomes a 1UU Brainstorm. Etc. The only advantage Snapcaster gives you is the 2/1 body, which for a control deck often becomes irrelevant. The situations in which you play Snapcaster Mage and then Standstill right after it are less frequent than the situations in which you need a cheaper answer - a R Bolt instead of a 1UR Bolt. And not only is the cost a factor, but Snapcaster needs the right answers in your graveyard. How can you be sure that the answer you need is going to be there? If you simply play more anwers in place of the Snapcasters, you are ensured more applicable answers. When I need a counterspell, I'd rather have a Counterspell in my hand than a Snapcaster in hand and a Lightning Bolt and a Brainstorm in my graveyard.

Snapcaster Mage is a good creature but belongs in tempo aggro-control lists. Not in more heavy control decks like Landstill.

[thefreakaccident]

Snapcaster is amazing with pyroclasms. Amazing.

[Mesercus]

i agree it's too strong to not be played.

[pandaman]

Played the deck again at the weekly local, having a much better 3-1 result this time. 0-2 against Burn, then 2-0 against UR Nivmagus Delver Burn, 2-0 against BG Loam Pox, and 2-1 against Mono U OmniClash.

List was:

Maindeck (60):eyebrow:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare

4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave


SIDEBOARD (15)

2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Vendillion Clique


It seems I have unconsciously settled on Shockwave's list, or near enough to it. One wonders what the point of this thread was...

Anyway, I like how the list played. You really have to tempo it, though, being very selective with Wasteland and Stifle to cut the opponent off their key colour and finish with the beaters while you have the chance. One thing I like is that the combo matchup is heaps better than any other Landstill build I have played. I expect only Dreadstill would be better. At the beginning of the night I was thinking that perhaps I would give Dreadstill a run, but I will stick with this for now. It is indeed a blast to play.

[pandaman]

I have a favour to ask: if anyone knows how to get in contact with xShockwaveX, who has been playing the hell out of this deck on MODO, could they let me know? I don't know if he posts here, but I have heard he posts on The Mana Drain. I am on there as pandaman also. Thanks in advance!

[DragoFireheart]

This deck dies to a single Aether Vial. Also, Cavern of Souls is a real card and blanks out a large chunk of your deck.

Not sure how you're going to handle any creature decks.

[thefreakaccident]

Personally, I don't think Jace is necessary in this type of landstill (+1 crucible of worlds). I'm not too sure if 4 snapcaster is good, but I like it. You might consider trimming either a conclave or wasteland for tolaria west as well. It makes your singleton explosives at least tutorable.

I guess it depends on the metagame, but I have been loving MD pyroclasms.

[pandaman]

Personally, I don't think Jace is necessary in this type of landstill (+1 crucible of worlds). I'm not too sure if 4 snapcaster is good, but I like it. You might consider trimming either a conclave or wasteland for tolaria west as well. It makes your singleton explosives at least tutorable.

I guess it depends on the metagame, but I have been loving MD pyroclasms.

4 Snapcaster is good. Even Turn 2 EOT Snapcaster into Turn 3 Standstill is a really good play. It just gets better when you have stuff to flash back. Because of how this deck plans to win (manlands) I don't know if cutting a Conclave is a smart idea. But I will try and test it.

[pandaman]

This deck dies to a single Aether Vial. Also, Cavern of Souls is a real card and blanks out a large chunk of your deck.

Not sure how you're going to handle any creature decks.

Vial is indeed tough. However, if you bring in 2 EE postboard you have three of them to deal with Vial, and as Vial decks are usually creature decks, Pyroclasm helps enormously.

Cavern of Souls isn't played that much at the moment, to my understanding? Maybe as a 1-of in Maverick, D&T, but a full 4-of in MUD. Even so, I have 4 Wasteland and Crucible to recur them, so I am not as concerned about it as I am about Vial, which is almost always played as a 4-of.

Handling creature decks is a matter of bringing in 2 EE, 3 Pyroclasm, and making setting up Crucible of Worlds/Factory blocks a priority. I will admit that it's difficult, though, and you have to play tight. There is a list posted earlier that has 3 StP maindeck and 1 sideboard, which I am also considering.

[warfordium]

i put together something embarrassing for tonight's weekly tournament in a similar vein—but running countertop. i think the standstill route is better; my answer to creatures was 2 maindeck bonfires. even non-miracle cost is decent for 1?

[pandaman]

i put together something embarrassing for tonight's weekly tournament in a similar vein—but running countertop. i think the standstill route is better; my answer to creatures was 2 maindeck bonfires. even non-miracle cost is decent for 1?

Bonfire is good because it is scale-able, but bad because it targets and can therefore me Diverted or Misdirected. As I am not running SDT I think I will stick with Pyroclasm/Firespout.

As an aside, the faces people make when I slam a Standstill at the Legacy local have been priceless :)

I am going to make a couple of changes to my list:

Maindeck

-1 Misty Rainforest +1 Faerie Conclave (taking the manland count to 7)
-1 Counterspell +1 Spell Snare (taking the Snare count to 4)
-1 Snapcaster Mage +1 Vendillion Clique

Sideboard

-2 Flusterstorm +1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Red Elemental Blast

Grinding it with some testing this weekend, at the weekly on Tuesday next week, and then Friday is GP Brisbane (Australia) Legacy Side Event with an English Moat as first prize - I wanna take it out!

Clique was great in the combo matchup, taking an Intuition and putting my opponent in topdeck mode while I got in for 5 per turn. Won the turn before my opponent went off. With Defense Grid on the battlefield since Turn 1! I think with the SnT decks playing Defense Grid as their counter-hate, 3 Clique after sideboarding will be very useful.

I think I also need 4 Relic for dealing with Goyf and Knight, as xShockwaveX has done.

[Mystical_Jackass]

So blue and red... with Standstill. The first thing that really comes to mind is Grim Lavamancer. I mean, against the meta wouldn't a Lavamancer followed by Standstill be devastating? I'd also think Snapcaster as a backup creature and threat would be pretty sick, maybe Clique EoT followed by Standstill? Those are my thoughts. I think the Lavamancer over Pyroclasm because it does much the same thing while putting you at an advantage under Standstill.

[pandaman]

Got in a good solid testing session against Shardless BUG earlier this afternoon. My first time playing against the 1G colossus that is Tarmogoyf. 4 Snare and 1 Explosives is not enough to stop it. Post board is scary even with Relic, Pyroclasm and Explosives coming in. Going to do some more post boarding against it tomorrow and make a call on changes. As previously stated in the thread, Swords to Plowshares may be required in some number.

[warfordium]

I thought the same thing about goofy/knight—my thoughts have turned to 2x dismember or 2x repeal. repeal has other applications...

[pandaman]

I thought the same thing about goofy/knight—my thoughts have turned to 2x dismember or 2x repeal. repeal has other applications...

I would like to avoid the third colour. But the problem is that Goyf and Knight are so often out of Dismember range as soon as they come down. Goyf was 7/8 last night on Turn 4 or 5, because of Standstill and Shardless Agent and Jace... StP is the answer that first comes to mind SK I will run with it first and test other answers later.

[Mystical_Jackass]

With the possibility of going U/R/w for StP...

What do you think about 4x Figure of Destiny? Turn1 Figure, Turn2 Standstill... now they're in a predicament, break Standstill or let you sit and turn him into a 4/4 spirit warrior in a couple turns.

[UnderwaterGuy]

With the possibility of going U/R/w for StP...

What do you think about 4x Figure of Destiny? Turn1 Figure, Turn2 Standstill... now they're in a predicament, break Standstill or let you sit and turn him into a 4/4 spirit warrior in a couple turns.

It's "win-more" to play a creature that doesn't answer things like snapcaster does. If you have standstill out then you're doing well anyhow and the manlands are a better wincon.

I think this deck wants to play almost all "answer" cards and very few others (standstill and cow).

[warfordium]

It's "win-more" to play a creature that doesn't answer things like snapcaster does. If you have standstill out then you're doing well anyhow and the manlands are a better wincon.

I think this deck wants to play almost all "answer" cards and very few others (standstill and cow).

the other major advantage i see is how the deck basically ignores Abrupt Decay—it lines up very poorly against standstill and manlands. you have more manlands than they have wastelands (and your own wastelands to protect your manlands), the threats that are susceptible to abrupt decay (snapcaster and clique) come down at instant speed and either push the things you can't deal with, or re-buy your answers.

[pandaman]

With the possibility of going U/R/w for StP...

What do you think about 4x Figure of Destiny? Turn1 Figure, Turn2 Standstill... now they're in a predicament, break Standstill or let you sit and turn him into a 4/4 spirit warrior in a couple turns.

Figure is a good card. However, you need to have white or red mana to pump it, so part of me thinks if I was going that way I would just spend one mana on a Delver. Additionally, I don't know if I would ever get enough coloured mana I wouldn't want to use activating and swinging with manlands. At the moment I am trying to stay away from creatures other than flash creatures, to better sneak them under Standstills.

[thefreakaccident]

I have been playing a delver deck with a few standstills in it, and it has been doing great. It has all the answers/cantrips and threats as delver, with the potential to force down a standstill on top of the turn one delver/whathaveyou. It doesn't slow down the clock whatsoever.

[Survex]

My altered shockwave list was similar to yours, I always found that three conclave was awkward when you have two in your opener or have one in your opener and draw the second one soon after. I switched to U/R/w as a metagame call to have more answers to deathrite shamans and tarmogoyfs. It just so happened to be awesome against the decks in the local metagame where I was playing, lots of elves, shardless bug, delver decks, merfolk, etc. I've tried Grim Lavamancer before in a previous build back in the day. The card is pretty good, but it seemed to be at it's best when Merfolk was popular, I personally wouldn't run it currently as we have lots of things to do with 1 mana.

[mini1337s]

My altered shockwave list was similar to yours, I always found that three conclave was awkward when you have two in your opener or have one in your opener and draw the second one soon after. I switched to U/R/w as a metagame call to have more answers to deathrite shamans and tarmogoyfs. It just so happened to be awesome against the decks in the local metagame where I was playing, lots of elves, shardless bug, delver decks, merfolk, etc. I've tried Grim Lavamancer before in a previous build back in the day. The card is pretty good, but it seemed to be at it's best when Merfolk was popular, I personally wouldn't run it currently as we have lots of things to do with 1 mana.
Halifax meta is Delver/burn heavy. In general, it's difficult to stick a Grim Lavamancer and have it do any lasting damage, and it's near impossible here. Swords to Plowshares is also much more relevant with Snapcaster Mage.

While I don't have any experience with it, Sulfuric Vortex seems like a house coming out of the side. With Factory and Snapcaster beats, it seems like it quickly tilts the game in your favor.

[Survex]

Halifax meta is Delver/burn heavy. In general, it's difficult to stick a Grim Lavamancer and have it do any lasting damage, and it's near impossible here. Swords to Plowshares is also much more relevant with Snapcaster Mage.

While I don't have any experience with it, Sulfuric Vortex seems like a house coming out of the side. With Factory and Snapcaster beats, it seems like it quickly tilts the game in your favor.

Vortex is pretty taxing on the manabase requiring double red :(, it could fit in the blue/red shell. I really can't think of a matchup where I would want that card out of the board though.. It does seem cool in theory, just not for this deck. The only time I think the card could be applicable is against control decks, but I think any control matchup is already insane for landstill.

[thefreakaccident]

Vortex is a crazy idea. Out of the question, as you are more than likely going to be the one on the defensive.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Halifax meta is Delver/burn heavy. In general, it's difficult to stick a Grim Lavamancer and have it do any lasting damage, and it's near impossible here. Swords to Plowshares is also much more relevant with Snapcaster Mage.

While I don't have any experience with it, Sulfuric Vortex seems like a house coming out of the side. With Factory and Snapcaster beats, it seems like it quickly tilts the game in your favor.

I like Sulfur Elemental instead of the vortex (still a sulfur card). It's uncounterable so it's fantastic to bring in against control decks and white decks that play mom/thalia/stuff. Most importantly though, flash means that we can actually cast this card safely when we get the chance. Spells need to be back-breaking to risk casting them on a main phase and I think playing more than just a very few cow's and jace is reckless.

[Survex]

I like Sulfur Elemental instead of the vortex (still a sulfur card). It's uncounterable so it's fantastic to bring in against control decks and white decks that play mom/thalia/stuff. Most importantly though, flash means that we can actually cast this card safely when we get the chance. Spells need to be back-breaking to risk casting them on a main phase and I think playing more than just a very few cow's and jace is reckless.

I can get behind the idea of having Sulfur Elemental out of the board. I think it would be pretty sweet. Just depends on the meta and the card surprisingly fits the deck well having flash and all.

[pandaman]

I went to the dark side last local, ladies and gentlement, playing UR Dreadstill. I wanted to see how UR would work with a blazing fast clock (Delver and Dreadnought). Not surprisingly, it works well. But Abrupt Decay is such a pain in the ass. And actually relying on creatures that aren't lands makes abrupt decay and all sorcery speed removal live, which is a real headache. The deck felt all-or-nothing, but sans Dreadnought and adding Snapcaster, it feels bottomless in terms of answers most of the time. I can imagine that when I add StP (testing tonight with the boys) it will feel even more that way.

Will report back my testing results tomorrow, hopefully. Work has curtailed my participating in tomorrow's big legacy event (first prize English Moat) but I will still be playing 4 eternal events over the weekend so I will be happy! Plus my Mox Sapphire showed up in the mail *does a dance*

[pandaman]

Back with more testing results, this time with the addition of White for 3 Swords to Plowshares. Left EE in to see how it ran, but shaved a Counterspell, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare to fit the StPs in. Finally the deck is starting to be able to tempo Shardless BUG like I had envisaged. I definitely agree that Swords are required. Stifle continues to be amazing, but against other Wasteland decks I'm wondering if I am using it correctly sometimes when I Stifle fetchlands. Should I be using them more defensively to nullify their Wastelands? It may be a situational decision. I shall play more and see how it turns out.

Next on the testing dais will be Jace and EE I think, and also the mana base. 3 Conclave could well be clunky but the increased manland count, especially flying manland, really helps against Jace. When you both get into topdeck mode, the deck REALLY needs to be chipping awaway for damage, that is what wins you most games, it seems.

I also cut 1 Standstill, going down to 3. Had a little more trouble finding one. You have to pay very careful attention to ensure you always have an optimal board state to drop one if you draw it. But that is what makes this deck so fun!

Of course, the devil on my shoulder is always telling me to play Shardless BUG so you can topdeck a Shardless Agent on an empty board and hand, cascade into Baleful Strix and draw and play a Tarmogoyf. And people say that Standstill annoys them!!!!

[Survex]

Back with more testing results, this time with the addition of White for 3 Swords to Plowshares. Left EE in to see how it ran, but shaved a Counterspell, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare to fit the StPs in. Finally the deck is starting to be able to tempo Shardless BUG like I had envisaged. I definitely agree that Swords are required. Stifle continues to be amazing, but against other Wasteland decks I'm wondering if I am using it correctly sometimes when I Stifle fetchlands. Should I be using them more defensively to nullify their Wastelands? It may be a situational decision. I shall play more and see how it turns out.

Next on the testing dais will be Jace and EE I think, and also the mana base. 3 Conclave could well be clunky but the increased manland count, especially flying manland, really helps against Jace. When you both get into topdeck mode, the deck REALLY needs to be chipping awaway for damage, that is what wins you most games, it seems.

I also cut 1 Standstill, going down to 3. Had a little more trouble finding one. You have to pay very careful attention to ensure you always have an optimal board state to drop one if you draw it. But that is what makes this deck so fun!

Of course, the devil on my shoulder is always telling me to play Shardless BUG so you can topdeck a Shardless Agent on an empty board and hand, cascade into Baleful Strix and draw and play a Tarmogoyf. And people say that Standstill annoys them!!!!

Glad to see you're enjoying it, in regards to how to play with stifle it often just comes down to your hand and play experience. Generally what I like to do is fire off the stifle unless they play around it by just not cracking fetches on their early turns, and if they do that - generally just save it for CITP effects or saving manlands, etc. Another situation is that, if you're manalight and need to protect your early duals or manlands, definitely hold stifle for wastelands.

[warfordium]

here's the list i put together and spun against Burn, Pox, Junk, Shardless BUG, non-Hoogland Jund Loam and UWr Miracles this week:


Creatures (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Repeal
1 Dismember

Others (7)
4 Standstill
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands (24)
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Redirect
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Hibernation
2 Sulfur Elemental


I'm not comfortable running Stifle with my playstyle—thats the main change compared to some other lists in this thread. It opens up a few other options, however. Chief amongst them is Repeal, which has been fantastic. I also like Clique in the main.

All the threats in the deck are immune to Abrupt Decay (manlands, recurrable in principle) or have Flash (Snapcaster and Clique, either re-buying answers or pushing things you can't deal with, the beating under a Standstill).

I'm running Koth over Jace because I noticed that the games close very fast with a flurry of damage—and i wanted an extra 4 per turn which was immune to Abrupt Decay once I got to that stage. That did lead me to playing a second mountain, but i've since reversed that position.

Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Loxodon Smiter (!!!—I know, but it might well become a Legacy card…) and Knight of the Reliquary are problems for the deck, but you can make a plan against them with Snare, Bolt, Snapcaster, and Repeal. The Dismember was also a concession to those fatties but I don't think I want to be paying all that life…

After reading Qweerios' excellent post here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26663-Deck-Ur-Landstill&p=748939&viewfull=1#post748939), I'm going to try this next.


Creatures (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Repeal
1 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

Others (7)
4 Standstill
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands (24)
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Redirect
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb


I have been suspicious for a little while that Life from the Loam had been outclassed as a card advantage engine—and as a dedicated strategy it might well be. I was also worried that Intuition as a tutor-for-game-turning-pile (especially where Ruins/EE/Thopter-Sword were all concerned) card was dead as well. I want to be wrong about that, so the narrow use in this deck to salvage your man lands/EE going late is superior to Crucible of Worlds from my perspective on the deck—in the BGx matchups. You probably only need to resolve Loam once or maybe twice after casting Intuition in order to seal the game.

I'm now anxious about Punishing Fires—our local Jund player doesnt run them, but our local Miracles player does—and none of the manlands survive (unless you're very careful with Factories); this is what lead me to the 2/2 Surgical Extraction/Relic of Progenitus split. I still have anxiety about Tarmogoyf. Some comedy sideboard options beyond the obvious Submerge:

Mind Harness
Hibernation
Curse of the Swine (followed up by Pyroclasm for a pig roast!)
Rapid Hybridization

I also wanted to spur some discussion about sideboarding—my minimum 4 grave-hate slots and 2 Flusterstorms are in place. I am trying 2 Redirect but will consider Divert and Misdirection during playtesting when Redirect is drawn. EE/Grudge/Orb/Pithing Needle are all designed to work alongside the Loam/Intuition/Ruins package. Other considerations: Sulfur Elemental as another Flash threat with applications against Maverick and Death and Taxes (not too many people play locally so I don't have much time to test) and, given the green splash, Destructive Revelry as an out to…potentially troublesome artifacts. Maybe EE and Pyroclasm are enough?

Anyways, this deck is scratching my control itch after a few months playing Omni-Tell and ANT. I think we can make it a great metagame choice right now—thoughts?

[Megadeus]

Please tell me Koth is awesome.

[warfordium]

He was pretty great as a 1-of. You'll basically only use the +1 to smash face. a 4/4 is surprisingly big in this format.

[Grizzly_Bear]

If you've transformed into RUG Landstill and are worried about Goyf, there's always the possibility to play your own goyfs...
This is untested from my side, just throwing it out there...

[warfordium]

pandaman, how'd your string of events go?

[evanmartyr]

He was pretty great as a 1-of. You'll basically only use the +1 to smash face. a 4/4 is surprisingly big in this format.

But is a 4/4 that dodges sorcery-speed removal really worth four mana? The ultimate is spiffy, but I'm thinking that he could just be Jace.

[warfordium]

It could be Jace, yes.

Koth helps speed up your clock (provided you're ahead), and his threatening ultimate pulls in attackers, making room for yours to crack back. The premise here is to close games quickly once ahead.

In that regard, Jace's "clock" is slower, but can control the top of your opponent's library if there are things you're weak to. If you're flat-out behind, brainstorming you into help is something Koth can't do, though in terms of raw card advantage, I've yet to really feel behind given how often standstills are going off.

I'm going to stick with it for the time being, and see how further testing plays out.

[pandaman]

pandaman, how'd your string of events go?

Mate, I missed the big Legacy event on the Friday before the GP because I couldn't get off work. But I played the Saturday afternoon Legacy event, going 3-2. Lost to an Elves player who ripped Natural Order -> Craterhoof off the top twice for the win in Games 2 and 3 when I had him dead on board both times. And lost to Lands, which is an awful matchup that I am prepared to lose to as only one person around here plays it. Won the rest against Goblins (2-1, game-lossed for being late for the round then won both 2 and 3), UR Nivmagus Delver (2-1) , and TES (2-0). The thing has a great combo matchup now with the tempo plan. StP maindeck is fantastic, it is staying there for good.

I also play UR Landstill in Vintage, and managed to acquire my first pieces of power (Mox Sapphire and Ancestral Recall) shortly before it came time to play the old format. I went 2-3in Vintage , losing to Dredge twice (0-2, where did you go 8 sideboard hate! I am well prepared for this matchup and think it's extremely positive post-board, but didn't seen any significant hate after lots of mulligans... :() and UB Tinkervault (1-2, got Vintaged hard in the third, he cast Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, and Memory Jar all in the same turm), but beat Reanimator and BUG Fish. I love Vintage :)

So I like the list as it is, I think.

Maindeck


1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard

2 Vendillion Clique
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm

[pandaman]

It could be Jace, yes.

Koth helps speed up your clock (provided you're ahead), and his threatening ultimate pulls in attackers, making room for yours to crack back. The premise here is to close games quickly once ahead.

In that regard, Jace's "clock" is slower, but can control the top of your opponent's library if there are things you're weak to. If you're flat-out behind, brainstorming you into help is something Koth can't do, though in terms of raw card advantage, I've yet to really feel behind given how often standstills are going off.

I'm going to stick with it for the time being, and see how further testing plays out.

Koth seems like hilarity all round, I will try him!

[pandaman]

Stifle was also ridiculous, one game I opened Stifle Stifle Wasteland, then laid a Mishra's factory. Got in for about 8 before the opponent played a land. Also, great for protecting your manlands from Wasteland and stifling suspend/cascade triggers against Shardless BUG (which went 4-0 again at the local last night, the menace is back...).

[dawgie]

Maindeck


1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard

2 Vendillion Clique
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm



Was this the list that ypu played? Its missing about 7 cards. Im thinking 4 Standstill and 3 Snapcaster Mages?

I play Landstill too in vintage and it is something that I would really love to play in Legacy as it fits my play style. Im just wondering though on how this fares against RUG Delver as it is pretty prevalent in our meta. Because of that, I will be going with the UWr build (4 Swords to Plow and 3 Lightning Bolts).

[warfordium]

StP maindeck is fantastic, it is staying there for good.

(…)

So I like the list as it is, I think.


I like the looks of your list as well—the counter suite in particular feels nailed on. I'm happier with the flash creatures package and repeals in the place of stifle.


Koth seems like hilarity all round, I will try him!

this may be a bit "pet card syndrome" on my end but I've really liked him. worth a punt!

[pandaman]

I was missing 3 Standstill and 4 Snapcaster Mage.

List felt very solid. Definitely needs white to compete with RUG Delver and BUG, I think. I haven't tested that much against RUG Delver, but one of my friends plays it regularly so I am going to jam some games against him sometime soon. Your 7 Removal effects, 3 Spell Snares, and 2 Counterspells seem to give you a fighting chance pre-board, and postboard you get Relic, Pyroclasm, and EE.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Was this the list that ypu played? Its missing about 7 cards. Im thinking 4 Standstill and 3 Snapcaster Mages?

I play Landstill too in vintage and it is something that I would really love to play in Legacy as it fits my play style. Im just wondering though on how this fares against RUG Delver as it is pretty prevalent in our meta. Because of that, I will be going with the UWr build (4 Swords to Plow and 3 Lightning Bolts).

Might want some EE's, otherwise Factory is the only answer to mongoose.

[warfordium]

took my list to 3-1 (wins over Pox, TinFins, Jund, loss to Prosak ANT—in which I punted hard) tonight.

Loam/Intuition/EE never came up.

The second Koth was unnecessary on the whole.

Punishing Fires is bad news. I might go up to 3 extraction effects. Sometimes wished I had another wasteland as well.

All in all, I'm very happy with the deck as it is.

[thefreakaccident]

took my list to 3-1 (wins over Pox, TinFins, Jund, loss to Prosak ANT—in which I punted hard) tonight.

Loam/Intuition/EE never came up.

The second Koth was unnecessary on the whole.

Punishing Fires is bad news. I might go up to 3 extraction effects. Sometimes wished I had another wasteland as well.

All in all, I'm very happy with the deck as it is.

Punishing fires getting you down? Make them sad instead with the junkiest of tech, teferi's response.

[SirTylerGalt]

Punishing fires getting you down? Make them sad instead with the junkiest of tech, teferi's response.

I might be dumb, but I don't understand how Teferi's Response answers Punishing Fires. What am I missing?

[klaus]

I might be dumb, but I don't understand how Teferi's Response answers Punishing Fires. What am I missing?
Sounds like TFAccident assumes you'll destroy Grove, which of course ain't happenin.
P.Fire will just be countered, when it targets Factory and you'll draw 2. C'est tout.

[warfordium]

just top 4'd a GPT. snuck in at 2-2-1 after the Swiss somehow...(17 players). lost to BUG and UWR delver, crushed TinFins post-board 2x.

beat burn in top 8, lost to Jund—nutted me g1 and couldn't find any goofy hate g2, when he had dubs.

intuition/loam/ruins never came up, though ruins ate a couple of wastelands on the day. might *gasp* try cuttin g them for stifles. we'll see. just gotta solve the goyf/fires issues.

[Survex]

just top 4'd a GPT. snuck in at 2-2-1 after the Swiss somehow...(17 players). lost to BUG and UWR delver, crushed TinFins post-board 2x.

beat burn in top 8, lost to Jund—nutted me g1 and couldn't find any goofy hate g2, when he had dubs.

intuition/loam/ruins never came up, though ruins ate a couple of wastelands on the day. might *gasp* try cuttin g them for stifles. we'll see. just gotta solve the goyf/fires issues.

If Thrun isn't an issue in your metagame or like if you don't see many punishing nonbasics try my list. Goyfs and creatures in general are not an issue. My manabase does need work, like I could obviously use more basics. I think the deck itself and card numbers themselves are pretty solid, try it out. (Posted on the first or second page of this thread)

[warfordium]

latest iteration (featuring white)


Creatures (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Intuition

Others (7)
4 Standstill
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands (23)
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wear//Tear
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Cursed Totem
1 Crucible of Worlds

[pandaman]

latest iteration (featuring white)


Creatures (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Intuition

Others (7)
4 Standstill
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands (23)
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wear//Tear
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Cursed Totem
1 Crucible of Worlds


Jamming 13 counters is a good effort!

Intuition singleton looks strange, may I ask how you use it?

I am also thinking of dropping Stifle for a change of style.

Finally, as survex has suggested, try cutting a Standstill if you are up for more change. I have, and I don't think I will ever put it back. Just seems with 3 you see it exactly when you want it and never when you don't.

Keep us up to date on your testing!

[pandaman]

just top 4'd a GPT. snuck in at 2-2-1 after the Swiss somehow...(17 players). lost to BUG and UWR delver, crushed TinFins post-board 2x.

beat burn in top 8, lost to Jund—nutted me g1 and couldn't find any goofy hate g2, when he had dubs.

intuition/loam/ruins never came up, though ruins ate a couple of wastelands on the day. might *gasp* try cuttin g them for stifles. we'll see. just gotta solve the goyf/fires issues.

Also, well done on this finish! I am working on a new list without stifles, which I hope to give a run next week. Will post it when done.

[warfordium]

Jamming 13 counters is a good effort!

I have learned something about how i play best—either entirely proactive, or entirely reactive. :cool:


Intuition singleton looks strange, may I ask how you use it?

it made more sense with loam/ruins in the deck, but bolt-snapcaster-plowshares or pierce-pierce-snapcaster or similar piles. also made more sense with the G splash with Ancient Grudge in the deck…


Finally, as survex has suggested, try cutting a Standstill if you are up for more change. I have, and I don't think I will ever put it back. Just seems with 3 you see it exactly when you want it and never when you don't.

honestly, i can't get enough standstills. i always want it, it seems.


Keep us up to date on your testing!

will do! going to grind it BUG/Jund on thursday in preparation for SCG Seattle.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I'm very afraid of the new merfolk Progenitus :frown:

I think Engineered Explosives (and ~10 counterspells) are our only answer to it.

[Qweerios]

I threw together a quick Standstill list for a weekly yesterday and didn't do so well. I had a sudden urge to play Standstills and didn't have time to sleeve up a proper list so it looks a bit sketchy:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Standstill
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
//SB
3 Rest in Peace
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Wear // Tear


Results:
0-2 vs. Elves

I have perfect hands both games (FoW +3 spot removal +SFM-> Jitte) but I cannot cast everything in time to prevent my opponent from going off several times.

2-0 vs. Miracles

Easy matchup with a Needle on Top. The pilot wasn't so great either and I just felt terrible inflicting a game loss upon him after the tragedy he went through this weekend, he was visibly in shambles. A heart-wrenching moment for our circle of players. Therefore, it is difficult to consider this a victory, let along a fair match at all.

0-2 vs. ANT

No disruption G1 and not enough G2

0-2 vs. Loam

Punishing Fire and recurring Wastes is near impossible to handle, especially when RiP gets Decayed.

As I mentioned earlier, the list had a lot of shortcomings and probably performed accordingly. Jaces, classic Counterspells, and sweepers were missed. Playing with SFM probably wasn't the smartest choice either. Although it does remedy the issues we have with swarms, it isn't in line with an "avoid Decay" strategy. Overall, the deck lacked late-game elements, namely Jace, that would convert the overabundance of lands I would regularly be faced with into business spells.

Has anyone considered Humility with Pyroclasm yet? It seems to me like there is no good excuse to exclude a singleton Humility from the mainboard. I cannot stress enough how vulnerable the metagame is to Humility.

[Survex]

I threw together a quick Standstill list for a weekly yesterday and didn't do so well. I had a sudden urge to play Standstills and didn't have time to sleeve up a proper list so it looks a bit sketchy:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Standstill
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
//SB
3 Rest in Peace
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Wear // Tear


Results:
0-2 vs. Elves

I have perfect hands both games (FoW +3 spot removal +SFM-> Jitte) but I cannot cast everything in time to prevent my opponent from going off several times.

2-0 vs. Miracles

Easy matchup with a Needle on Top. The pilot wasn't so great either and I just felt terrible inflicting a game loss upon him after the tragedy he went through this weekend, he was visibly in shambles. A heart-wrenching moment for our circle of players. Therefore, it is difficult to consider this a victory, let along a fair match at all.

0-2 vs. ANT

No disruption G1 and not enough G2

0-2 vs. Loam

Punishing Fire and recurring Wastes is near impossible to handle, especially when RiP gets Decayed.

As I mentioned earlier, the list had a lot of shortcomings and probably performed accordingly. Jaces, classic Counterspells, and sweepers were missed. Playing with SFM probably wasn't the smartest choice either. Although it does remedy the issues we have with swarms, it isn't in line with an "avoid Decay" strategy. Overall, the deck lacked late-game elements, namely Jace, that would convert the overabundance of lands I would regularly be faced with into business spells.

Has anyone considered Humility with Pyroclasm yet? It seems to me like there is no good excuse to exclude a singleton Humility from the mainboard. I cannot stress enough how vulnerable the metagame is to Humility.

First thing I noticed with your list is that it is trying to be active (at sorcery speed), but I find that's the wrong way to play Standstill. Maybe it's just me, but when I play the card I want reactive spells to setup the card draw engine and playing cards like SFM allows my opponents to make plays. I think with SFM I would almost rather run Ancestral Visions instead of Standstills. In that regard I think 4 Spell Pierce is a lot, and doesn't offer too much flexibility in regards to aggro decks. Spell Snare I feel is a card that is almost never dead and can hit annoying two drops, certain rituals, etc. Another thing I would consider changing is Rest In Peace, that card is obviously a fine choice, it's just that it is counter-intuitive with Snapcaster Mage. It can be argued that Relic of Progenitus is as well, but you can control when you pop it and play around it, whereas with Rest in Peace, there is no playing around it. Let me know what you think, cheers.

[Qweerios]

Of course landstill wants to be as reactive and instant speed as possible, I won't dispute that. I wont deny that the list contained strategic conflict either. However, SFM isn't bad in a reactive standstill shell by any means. It answers very specific problems of this archetype, and can operate under standstill (synergy).

As for RiP, they usually replace snapcaster altogether. In certain matchups such as RUG, Jund, and BUG, it acts as a pseudo humility for mongoose, goyf, and DRS.

My current Landstill list is UWr so I don't know if I should post it here.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[Kaslan]

I threw together a quick Standstill list for a weekly yesterday and didn't do so well. I had a sudden urge to play Standstills and didn't have time to sleeve up a proper list so it looks a bit sketchy:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Standstill
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
//SB
3 Rest in Peace
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Wear // Tear


Results:
0-2 vs. Elves

I have perfect hands both games (FoW +3 spot removal +SFM-> Jitte) but I cannot cast everything in time to prevent my opponent from going off several times.

2-0 vs. Miracles

Easy matchup with a Needle on Top. The pilot wasn't so great either and I just felt terrible inflicting a game loss upon him after the tragedy he went through this weekend, he was visibly in shambles. A heart-wrenching moment for our circle of players. Therefore, it is difficult to consider this a victory, let along a fair match at all.

0-2 vs. ANT

No disruption G1 and not enough G2

0-2 vs. Loam

Punishing Fire and recurring Wastes is near impossible to handle, especially when RiP gets Decayed.

As I mentioned earlier, the list had a lot of shortcomings and probably performed accordingly. Jaces, classic Counterspells, and sweepers were missed. Playing with SFM probably wasn't the smartest choice either. Although it does remedy the issues we have with swarms, it isn't in line with an "avoid Decay" strategy. Overall, the deck lacked late-game elements, namely Jace, that would convert the overabundance of lands I would regularly be faced with into business spells.

Has anyone considered Humility with Pyroclasm yet? It seems to me like there is no good excuse to exclude a singleton Humility from the mainboard. I cannot stress enough how vulnerable the metagame is to Humility.

Hello Qweerios,
I'd like to thank you for your report hope to see more of them in the near future.

p.s. congrats on you X-3 result :cool:

p.p.s. in your second round you won 2-1 and not 2-0 :rolleyes:

p.p.p.s nice top deck in game 1 :mad:

[Valarne]

Hello thread.

I have been playing UWR Standstill more or less since GP Strasbourg, usually with some success. I have tried a number of different tweaks and have so, I think, learned stuff during the way. Now, BOM is coming up shortly, so it would be nice to get fresh eyes on my list, so that I avoid tunnel vision or something. The latest list, including a few choices that I haven't actually tried in practice, is this:

GeistStill UWR

4 Vendilion Clique
3 Geist of St Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 Punishing Fire
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
9 fetch

Sideboard:

2 Detention Sphere
3 Pithing Needle
2 REB/Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Relic of Progenitus

There are some notable differences from certain lists, but it is however not too far from Queerios'.

Punishing Fire: The mana is ok, since Grove is just tap for R or colorless. Not to have too many non-blue lands, I shaved a Factory. We are not aggressivley beating down with thos anyway. Punishing Fire, when online, is just the kind of engine that a control deck needs. It is also viable (more aggressive) with bolts, but PFire are generally stronger I think.

Geist of St Traft: Against opposing PFire, a list without Geist, Entreat og Helm combo, is basically drawing dead lategame. Geist gives a nice angle in the control mirror, gives easy wins and most importantly, gives a plan against decks like Jund where you kill all their stuff, but they do the same to you.

No basics: If you have basics, then Wasteland becomes tougher to beat. We are not beating a resolved Blood Moon anyway. I'd rather play around Wasteland, than put 3-4 basics in the deck, and still lose to Blood Moon half the time I encounter it.

Other thoughts:
3 Needle because we can lose to Waste - that is how fair creature decks win against us, realistically, along with the tempo of Vial. Sneak Attak, SDT are also headaches that it is nice to have a clean answer to.

Verdict main because the dynamics with Standstill and PFire often lead to board states where you only can lose if they overextend heavily. Also, a turn 4 Verdict is often gonna be enoughto let you seal the deal with the decks natural lategame.

4 Clique because the main deck is obviously set up to deal with the fair decks. Clique is the best card to see against unfair decks, and with the new legend rule, seeing multiples simply allow us to cycle bad cards.


I think it is nice to have a Counterspell in the deck, basically always. It has extra value with Snapcaster, and we need some outs (besides FoW) to Blood Moon, Choke and so forth.

I played with Wear/Tear in the board a lot, but I think they underperform generally. I'd rather have the pitchable multi-tool of Detention Sphere, even if it is lackluster against some fringe stuff.
Relic of Prog is an out to Nimble Mongoose, plus it is jus a good card, and with this configuration, there should be enough cards to bring in against the unfair decks.

After all this, I would like to hear what yout fresh eyes have to say about the list!
Thanks.

[theycallmeaisoka]

Hows it going everyone!
This is my first post on this account (had one previously that was started in 2006 in which I posted embarrassing and unintelligent information... I was also 15 so that kind of dates me).

Anyways I am THIS guy.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60002
And you can check out my deck tech here!
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_uwr_landstill_with_j.html

I didnt think this was a known deck but a fellow North Western Legacy player Warfordium (ill keep his name confidential) approached me and said he was playing standstill in his deck as well. He told me to post about it on the source and here I am with a brand new account and too much power at my fingertips. Anyways I’ll talk a little about the deck, my card choices, some of the matchup analysis/problem cards for this deck and why you should play this deck over other blue mid-ranged control decks.

HOKAY here is the decklist
Flash-Still

Creatures 10
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

Spells 27
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Izzet Charm
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands 23
1 Karakas
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland


Turn 1 spot removal (8-10)
4 Bolt and 4 Plow are necessary for clearing space to drop in standstill on turn 2. If you don’t have a plow or a bolt, an EE on 1 will do because it forces the opponent to play around it rather than run a 1 drop into it. Also sometimes a Mishra’s Factory will be enough to deter an early attacker. You just need to be weary of wasteland which can roll through standstill. Usually turn 1 Deathrite can be answered with a factory but most times ill just snap a removal spell to take care of it. Drawing 3 is very powerful

Countermagic (7-9)
Force of will is the backbone in terms of permission. Drawing 3 means we don’t have to worry about the card disadvantage and pitching a Spell Pierce or Brainstorm doesn’t feel that bad. Spell pierce is used to protect our hand from Thoughtsieze or Lilana. It also stops Aether Vial if we are on the play (very important)

Creatures (10)
Knowing when to “turn the corner” is particularly important in this deck. At some point we need to switch from a defensive posture to an offensive deck and this can be done several ways. Under Standstill with Mishras Factories, with Geist of Saint Traft after drawing 5 million cards and killing everything under the sun or with Vendillion Clique (usually after they break a Stand Still and hope we move to discard). Snapcaster Mage allows this deck to further build advantage while acting as a respectable 2 powered body.

Understanding Standstill as an engine vs other draw engines
Standstill is all about maintaining board control. If you are winning on the table then you want to have Standstill on the table or in hand. If you are losing on the board then Standstill is much less powerful and should be saved for later. In this regard Standstill is much more powerful then Ancestral Vision. Vision takes time to set up and requires other clunky cards in order to function. Vision can played on turn 1 but a player suspending visions can still lose the game before he/she is ever able to draw 3 cards. Standstill requires our opponent to consider the risk of giving us 3 extra cards when they move to resolve a spell.

Problem cards for “Flash-Still”
Aether Vial
A Vial will negate any sort of board advantage because the Vial player can roll creatures through our standstill without the penalty of give us 3 additional cards. Obviously it would be nice to stop the Vial before it ever makes it into play (Spell Pierce/Izzet charm or Force of Will) but in the event that it does there are alternative actions that you can take to salvage the game). EE is your best weapon here or the Wear/Tear in the SB. Ive found that a resolved Vial is not the end of the world it just makes the game more difficult.
Nimble Mongoose
This card is a Nightmare. It is extremely hard to deal with unless you can put together a strong block in game 1 or a un-molested EE for 1. In G2 we get access to Celestial Flair which provides answers for Geist, Nimble Mongoose, Inkwell Leviathan and Progenetus.

Sideboard!

3 Meddling Mage
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Flare
1 Wear//Tear


The board for this deck is straight forward. Board out 8 spot removal for 8 strong anti-combo cards (Meddling Mage, Flusterstorm and Pyroblast ). Surgical and Relic offer good utility vs graveyard decks. Flair gives you game vs shroud creatures and Wear//Tear just because it’s the best disenchant to play.

Anyways I will post some matchup analysis and possibly a tournament report from my 7-2 run at Starcity Seattle. It was fun but 9th is always a heart break especially because I’ve never been in a top8 before. If you aren’t first you’re last..

[SirTylerGalt]

@theycallmeaisoka: awesome having you here. Welcome on The Source!

I have a few questions about your current decklist:
- don't you miss the 3rd or 4th wastelands to kill your opponent's manlands under a Standstill? Would that make the manabase too shaky?
- what do you think of playing a few Stifles to slow down your opponent's mana development? Instead of killing his T1 Shaman, you could Stifle his fetchland, making him unable to play any 1-drop?
- have you considered including a SFM package?


Also, I wonder if the recently spoiled merfolk True-Name Nemesis would be a good replacement for Geist in your list?

[theycallmeaisoka]

@theycallmeaisoka: awesome having you here. Welcome on The Source!

I have a few questions about your current decklist:
- don't you miss the 3rd or 4th wastelands to kill your opponent's manlands under a Standstill? Would that make the manabase too shaky?
- what do you think of playing a few Stifles to slow down your opponent's mana development? Instead of killing his T1 Shaman, you could Stifle his fetchland, making him unable to play any 1-drop?
- have you considered including a SFM package?


Also, I wonder if the recently spoiled merfolk True-Name Nemesis would be a good replacement for Geist in your list?

Hey SirTylerGalt!
Thanks for your response!

3-4 wastelands make the mana a little questionable essentially because we would end up running 8 colorless mana sources and some times we wouldn't beable to cast standstill!
Stifle has a special place in my heart but mana denial is not the name of the game here.
I have tried out SFM and the card is very powerful. You dont get as many surprise shenanigans as you do with snapcaster mage and deck space is limited. It is also important to consider snapcaster mage is a card that would stay in vs combo decks and SFM along with equipment would most likely be cut for a "better" clock. What i mean by this is you can leave mana up to play counter magic and EOT Snapcaster mage to get in for damage. Snapcaster also alows you to flashback your more powerful SB cards (in particular Flusterstorm) vs combo decks.
On True-Name Nemesis. I think the card is very powerful but i have trouble believing that it is more powerful then Geist. Truename can deal damage to an opponent with blockers in the way and can block our problem cards like Nimble Mongoose and enemy Geist. However we should assume that our deck will function in an appropriate manner and be-able to kill off all of the blockers. I talk about "turning the corner" in my previous post and attacking for 6 speeds up the clock enormously and dosnt give our opponent a chance to draw out of there situation. I like Truename and will be testing it in future builds.

[Survex]

Congrats on your finish, ever since I saw the geiststill deck from GP Strasbourg I wanted to try vclique/geist, but just never got around to it. In regards to the 3-4 wasteland comment I agree that in a geist/vclique version of the deck I don't think you really want to be stifling and wastelanding as you have better things to setup for. If someone did want to push the 3/4th wasteland in, they could consider 25 lands. Anyways! More importantly I'm wondering what you played against and what your wins/losses were and do you think the losses were winnable games?

[pandaman]

@theycallmeaisoka, welcome indeed! Looking forward to your report!

[pandaman]

Thinking more on Geist, I think it fits well in with the deck. It's immune to spot removal, most importantly Abrupt Decay, and it ends games fast when it comes down, which is difficult to do with just Mishra's Factory and Faerie Conclave. If anything, I think perhaps the creature that fits in the worst is Vendillion Clique, as the only advantage you get out of it is a peek at their hand and a chance to ship something dangerous to you. It could be argued that Snapcaster Mage has the same problem, but you are flashing back a spell of your choice when you choose, which allows you to maximise its value.

Following with that logic, I might try the following creature/manland split:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendillion Clique

Also, it seems there are some trends emerging:

People generally agree that straight UR doesn't provide enough removal, and that W is the best splash colour, for StP
There are two camps: Stifle/Wasteland camp and No Stifle/2Wasteland Camp

This thread is coming along. I will work on updating the primer sometime this coming week. It is definitely a work in progress.

[lavafrogg]

AAAAHHHHH!!!

I am going to build a UR landstill/fish deck as soon as my snapcaster arrive and it will for sure play 4 izzet charm and 4 fire ice, would the internets turn the deck more old school fishy with aether vial or does the anti synergy with snapcaster mean I should just play with out the vial?

I am thinking

4 snapcaster
4 grim lavamancer

at a minimum with

4 delver
4 young pyromancer

if i want to go the aggro route...

so for rough drafts sake

4 grim lavamancer
4 snapcaster

4 standstill

4 lightning bolt
4 fire ice
4 izzet charm
4 brainstorm
4 force of will

4 mishras factory
4 fairy conclave
4 fetchland
4 volcanic islands
3 island
1 mountain

With 8 cards to spare....

I could go

4 delver
4 pyromancer

or

1 crucible
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl(for a fairy conclave)
3 counter spell
3 isochron scepter

The sideboard will just contain blasts, sweepers and artifact destruction with a side of graveyard hate for good measure...

Ideas?

OMG I am looking at red planeswalkers for the first time....Chandra, the firebrand seems dumb good for a deck like this. I wish ral zarek did anything more usefull....

[god_campbell]

Looks liek Rich is backing to playing on modo again, here's his recent list:

3 FAerie Conclave
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
25 lands

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 creatures

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
32 other spells


Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sudden Shock
2 Surgical Extraction
15 sideboard cards

[lavafrogg]

UR is super well positioned in the metagame right now.

With Delver, Lavamancer and Nemesis it does not need to splash another color for its beat sticks and Jace is a great finisher.

All of the midrange decks have been pushing down the aggro decks and all of the turn one vial/lackeys. Without them the scariest thing that can happen is a delver/goose/deathrite and bolts take care of two of the creatures and man lands can take down any of them if they attack aka Standstill is a beast right now with most people playing planeswalkers.

My only issue with the list is that it needs more izzet charm and more riptide laboratory but other than that it is pretty sweet.

[warfordium]

just saw Lejay playing the UR Landstill build on Drew Levin's latest article; would love to see his list. Force Spike G1!!!!

[kiblast]

hey, here's the list I'm tinkering with at the moment

1 Faerie Conclave
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sensei's Divining Top


SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Sudden Shock
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

Some random thoughts: play trinket mage! The guy fetches anything you may want pre sb or post sb. Plus, since you are already playing Stifles, he lets you play Dreadnought as a 1 of.
You are not going nowhere with 8 colorless lands and 3 lands that CiPT. I tried to lower the amount of Conclaves to make my manabase work smoother.
Standstill IS a 4 of in a Landstill deck no matter what. Your deck is designed to take advantage of it.

EDIT: SB is Shockwave's. I don't have a clue about it, probably is geared towards online meta.

[Tea]

your deck is just not good for the current metagame:
- Dreadnought -> Stp, Abrupt decay
- your deckbuilding does pretty much nothing to handle the menace of TNN
- 3 FoW in a Standstill deck -> awful
- Spell Snare still doesn't do anything against S&T
- not enough win-cons/Jace/bombs like Shackles
- Where is V. Clique?!

As for Trinket Mage, I think he has a lot of potential. But his power obviously depends on his targets. Not sure about that:
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
what else? Maybe you can break Meekstone. That would be awesome.
Another card to consider when considering Trinket Mage is Tolaria West.

[kiblast]

- Dreadnought -> Stp, Abrupt decay

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.



your deckbuilding does pretty much nothing to handle the menace of TNN

You can play a Tropical/Usea/Tundra to set EE at 3. And btw, none of the lists in this whole thread have anything specifically vs TNN. (Except 3-4 Reb)



3 FoW in a Standstill deck -> awful

I think that FoW is still the worst card in the deck. With the meta switching to Midrange attrition wars, FoW sucks.



Spell Snare still doesn't do anything against S&T

And this deck still dies to a resolved Tarmogoyf if you don't find JTMS or Crucible or EE in time. Also CB, Thalia etc...What's the point of your critique?



- not enough win-cons/Jace/bombs like Shackles

I'm fine with 2 Jtms and man lands beatdown to win the game. I also have access to nought if I want to and I understand it's a safe plan.



- Where is V. Clique?!

Yeah I know... I'm struggling to find a slot for her.

[Erdvermampfa]

In all honesty, your list is anything but playable. It is even worse than the lists posted in the previous pages who's creators at least acknowledged that TNN represents an issue and searched for tools to handle it. If you take the current metagame into serious consideration, you will quickly conclude that Ur doesn't provide enough solutions to the threats that are played right now. It's even hard to cover all possible matchups with UWx because the deck strategies and sources of inevitability are very diverse and I would even state that the whole Standstill approach should be questioned because it occupies a lot of design space and flexibility which is pressingly needed to address as many matchups as possible. Furthermore, I realized some time ago that it is actually rather contradictory to run so many nonbasics and concurrently to rely on so many high-costed spells like Jace because you become too vulnerable to LD and bad draw, which is another reason why I chose to abstain from Standstill by the way.

[Lejay]

just saw Lejay playing the UR Landstill build on Drew Levin's latest article; would love to see his list. Force Spike G1!!!!

Didn't know this topic until now. Don't expect me to become a regular poster though.
1 Mountain
1 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Noetic Scales
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill
1 Force Spike
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

I started off Shockwave's list. I was a little disappointing he couldn't stay UR and I immediatly had huge issues with playing 0 non basic in the MTGO metagame, so I tried to find a build that was essentially UR with a maximum of answer to TNN. That's why I have a tropical island with EEs and the noetic scale. Noetic is a splendid answer to goyf and TNN that buys you a ton of time. You can use that time to beat down, find a removal, or just counter them. Ancient grudge is wonderful in a full mystic meta and in addition to EE it gives me lots of answers to a resolved chalice on 1.
The stifle package is good, but I have no idea if it's the best choice. I was also happy with running sb needle and the sb EE both main instead with 2 probes (which could be something else). The 2 slots sb I removed were the Surgical extractons which are good with scm but not that necessary. A friend of mine also advocated playing 1 additionnal trop main for 1 intuition 1 loam, and possibly academy ruins removing stifles. It seems ok but I didn't test it. Other than that the decklist didn't change much. I have been testing other decks lately and lent some cards in it so I didn't test it since then.
Deck is not easy to play but sideboarding should not be difficult as in most of my lists. Against DRS decks you side out SCM for relics. Against decay you don't bring in needle or side it out if it's main (show it G1, they'll keep the decays). Beb is wonderful in a moon metagame and I find a lot of other applications. Spike is there as both a way to improve sb tables (by cutting 3rd pierce which would be weak to creatures decks) and for psychological value. Not sure which is best between mutavault and 3rd faerie conclave. 1 tropical is enough if you are careful, it rarely backfires. Of course things like one trop one spike may be less good now that I posted publicly about them but I don't think this thread is much read.

[kiblast]

In all honesty, your list is anything but playable. It is even worse than the lists posted in the previous pages who's creators at least acknowledged that TNN represents an issue and searched for tools to handle it. If you take the current metagame into serious consideration, you will quickly conclude that Ur doesn't provide enough solutions to the threats that are played right now. It's even hard to cover all possible matchups with UWx because the deck strategies and sources of inevitability are very diverse and I would even state that the whole Standstill approach should be questioned because it occupies a lot of design space and flexibility which is pressingly needed to address as many matchups as possible. Furthermore, I realized some time ago that it is actually rather contradictory to run so many nonbasics and concurrently to rely on so many high-costed spells like Jace because you become too vulnerable to LD and bad draw, which is another reason why I chose to abstain from Standstill by the way.

Well maybe is just play skill, but I'm having good feedback vs Miracles, BGx (if I menage to keep goyf out the board) and combo decks in general. Every time I faced TNN in my testing (which is probably around 30 games online/live, not so much) I countered it or lost to it. But as you correctly say, UR lacks the tools. In fact I didn't say that my list broke legacy in half, I just said hey guys heres my list, I think we should play 4 Stills, use Trinket Mage,etc. I didn't say my list was the best control deck in legacy, nor I believe that UR Landstill is highly competitive, I just think its fun to test a different brew every now and then.

Edit: Another direction could be to splash black to gain access to Perish and -x-x effect, this would solve 3 of the main problems of this deck, Nemesis, swarm aggro decks like elves and Tarmogoyf.

[Tea]

Spell Snaring Tarmogoyf is great of course, but in a world of Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique a proactive plan is indispensable. Well, to my knowledge the best solution in U/R are EE and Repeal, which is why I run the full 8 copies in my 75 (logical deduction). They also handle Delver.

[kiblast]

Spell Snaring Tarmogoyf is great of course, but in a world of Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique a proactive plan is indispensable. Well, to my knowledge the best solution in U/R are EE and Repeal, which is why I run the full 8 copies in my 75 (logical deduction). They also handle Delver.

I quickly increased the amounts of EE as well! How is repeal in your testing? I always had a soft spot for the card in Landstill builds as a Standstill enabler… Looking forward to see your list if you are willing to share.

[rancOr_]

I also think that a UB shell with Toxic Deluge/innocent blood is really good to run. Cliques should probably be in the 75 to finish out games against combo(+snapcaster mage). If you compare UB to UR it just has way more solid options to deal with creatures(TNN/goyf). I mean even a UW list is better suited atm( STP+supreme verdict). I have played a lot with UR Control in the past(with snapcaster,grim) and also with UW StoneStill. The major problems with red has always been the big creatures. Now with TNN I honestly don't see the benefits of red over either black/white. greetz

[Tea]

I'm actually coming from mono blue control, but the problems are often the same I think.
In my MUC deck I run 4 Cliques (Clique is a very consistent way to deal with Delver), 4 EE, 1 Repeal, and 3 Force Spike (insert Spell Snare/Spell Pierce if you prefer them, I like Force Spike, however), and 3 more Repeal in SB. But Lightning Bolt certainly changes the dynamic, e.g. Snapcaster is much better in U/R, Clique is less important.

Repeal is very good, I can firmly say that it's undervalued/underplayed.

I think the appeal of U/R is that the combination of bolt + SCM can often just race everyone. U/R is very aggro.

[kiblast]

Isn't mono blue supposed to run some sort of colorless mass removal like Oblivion Stone ? O-Stone can be fetched through good ol' Intuition Academy Ruins/ Loam piles… and when it comes down to Intuition/ Loam / Ruins engine Batterskull is another handy tool vs aggro.

[Tea]

yes, that's exactly what I do :smile:
O-Stone (Disk), Shackles, Batterskull, Academy Ruins (awesome card), Jace.
I don't run Intuition/Loam/CoW however.

[Higgs]

I also think that a UB shell with Toxic Deluge/innocent blood is really good to run. Cliques should probably be in the 75 to finish out games against combo(+snapcaster mage). If you compare UB to UR it just has way more solid options to deal with creatures(TNN/goyf). I mean even a UW list is better suited atm( STP+supreme verdict). I have played a lot with UR Control in the past(with snapcaster,grim) and also with UW StoneStill. The major problems with red has always been the big creatures. Now with TNN I honestly don't see the benefits of red over either black/white. greetz

I would love to run a straight UB control deck with Standstills and Toxic Deluge, I truly would. But whilst you're there, why wouldn't you splash green for Abrupt Decay and Deed and run BUG landstill?

[The Treefolk Master]

yes, that's exactly what I do :smile:
O-Stone (Disk), Shackles, Batterskull, Academy Ruins (awesome card), Jace.
I don't run Intuition/Loam/CoW however.

Do you have a MUC list you could share?

[drfontaine]

Hi!

Perhaps not really the right thread, but since latest posts were about MUC with like splash black for innocent blood + perhaps t. deluge, i figuered id post it here, especially since repeal was mentioned.

What u guys think about something like this?

2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystic Remora

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Back to Basics
4 Repeal
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Innocent Blood

9 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

Even included a SB ! I also think repeal is quite underrated, and in this deck i try to make the most use of it! Really dont like playing a control deck aiming for complete long game without having answers to problematic permanents, which often can be the case when playing for instance UW, IE try playin repeal. With few non basic you get to progress your manabase much more soolidly, which lets you reach cruicial 4+ mana with less disruption. For me i dont like the fact playing counterspell heavy deck (either via lots counterspells or cb/top package) without an answer to vial or cavern of souls in maindeck, repeal and in this case b2b is a great way to solve this!

b2b makes deck construction also alot cheaper, which is great! I still think b2b is game winning vs so many decks, and in this deck its also quite useful even vs control mirror since with remora you can make good use of the adv in mana it offers, since even miracle control seldom plays more than 4-6 basics! Sure its easily abruptdecayable vs the decks you need it the most, but they also have to decay your shackles, and alot of the time even if they do it usually buys you time, and if it takes them to long or you managed to handle the early game until you get to develop ur mana you might even have the optioin of repealing ur own b2b/shackles which can be cute!

Repeal + mystic remora is just supergreat interaction, however one can debate however remora is good enough on its own. Altho its great vs combo+control, and similair to standstill often lets you develop mana before game begins, which is great for you!

Black splash instead of white just cause i just like to have nice answers to problematic permanents in md, ie innocent blood instead of plow vs TNN.

Sb kinda self explanatory, i really like the sower since its obv great vs sneak/show, and the fact its just so great vs abruptdecay decks which have a hard time removing it. Stealing goyf or even more cute tombstalker, vs opposing only removal decay is just nice!

I do however admit deck is somewhat of a budget solution (myself playign 1 underground :/), and do not expect it to be top tier, but from my extensive testing it has game vs most, and very satisfiying to pilot!

opinions?

bye!

[pandaman]

Necro'ing this thread to pay tribute to Lam Phan and his UR Landstill build that Top 8'd GP New Jersey. Well done!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpnj14/top8decks

I understand he's been grinding the same or similar list for a long time, and it's great to see his success.

[thefreakaccident]

Ok. I'm on this.

[Shock Wave]

Necro'ing this thread to pay tribute to Lam Phan and his UR Landstill build that Top 8'd GP New Jersey. Well done!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpnj14/top8decks

I understand he's been grinding the same or similar list for a long time, and it's great to see his success.

Lam and I played the same list, within 4 cards. It's more or less the same list I've been running on MODO for years. Lam finished Day 2 X-2, I finished 10-2-3. Unfortunately, I had to fight through some bitter matchups and never played against Miracles, whereas Lam played Miracles 3 times and Belcher twice, which is essentially 5 byes.

The deck was a beating the entire event, and Sudden Shock was ripping my opponents a new one pretty much every time I cast it. In the early rounds, my opponents and onlookers were making fun of me, but by the end of the event, everyone was respecting it. Really underrated card.

[pandaman]

I knew that you had sold him on your list mate, well done to you too, that's a good record. The draws are a tough break... What are people wanting to do in response to your Sudden Shock that the Split Second was foiling? Counter it? Bounce the targeted creature?

[menace13]

What are people wanting to do in response to your Sudden Shock that the Split Second was foiling? Counter it?
Mostly, but also getting tokens from Pyromancer gets cut off as well.

[copywriter]

@Shock Wave - congrats on a good result. Impressive and inspiring. I'm by no means any expert in the Landstill archetype, but I'm extremely interested in learning. Any chance you could answer my questions?

1. Would you mind sharing the difference between Lam and your list? Why did you make other choices?
2. Also, Lam said in the "Top 8 profile" that he would look to incorporate Gitaxian Probe. Thoughts?
3. In the feature matches Lam played, he seemed to be lacking 2-3 pieces of selection or card draw. Just bad draws or something to think about?


Thanks!

[Shock Wave]

1. Would you mind sharing the difference between Lam and your list? Why did you make other choices?
2. Also, Lam said in the "Top 8 profile" that he would look to incorporate Gitaxian Probe. Thoughts?
3. In the feature matches Lam played, he seemed to be lacking 2-3 pieces of selection or card draw. Just bad draws or something to think about?


1. My list vs. his:

- 1 Dig Through Time
- 1 Jace
- 1 Fetch

+ 1 Treasure Cruise
+ 1 Island
+ 1 Faerie Conclave

In the sideboard, Lam ran 1 Flusterstorm, I ran 1 Jace.

Lam and I discussed our differences many days in advance of the tournament, but unfortunately, since we are both older and very busy, we had no time to test and validate which configuration was correct. Based on my experience, I am almost certain that running 1 less Conclave is wrong. I would have lost several games and at least 1 match without it. I am also 99% sure that running 24 lands is wrong. I would never run less than 25. Lam may be correct about running a fetch in place of the 3rd island. I am going to test that and see how it goes. I don't like Jace in the main any more. It sucks against Delver and there actually are very few matchups in which I want to see it. I think Flusterstorm in the board is fine. That last SB slot is really debatable. In this deck, I prefer TC over DTT. I'd rather have the extra card.

2. Leading up to the event, I tested about 10 matches with Gitaxian Probe. It was good, but my gut told me that 10 matches is not a sufficient sample size for evaluating this sort of change, so I opted against running it. There was never a time during the event that I wish I had it. In fact, I would have lost several matches against Delver as a result of the life loss. I am going to test it in smaller events, but my gut says it is one of those "wish I could fit it in" cards.

3. I only watched the end of one of his games against MUD, and his T8 match against infect. MUD is a tough matchup. I only saw the game once his opponent had already locked him out, so I don't know what choices he had made up to that point. Against Infect, he misplayed in both Games 2 and 3, which is why he lost. He actually had very strong draws in all 3 games and had a highly favorable matchup. Unfortunately, his opponent played extremely well and Lam made some hasty decisions. I don't think his loss was related to card selection. The deck is highly capable of digging and finding what it needs.

Hope that helps!

[rlesko]

Unfortunately, I had to fight through some bitter matchups and never played against Miracles, whereas Lam played Miracles 3 times and Belcher twice, which is essentially 5 byes.

Can you explain what makes the miracles match up so favorable? Thanks

[Shock Wave]

Can you explain what makes the miracles match up so favorable? Thanks

There are so many reasons, but I will list those that immediately come to mind:

1. Stifle tears them a new one.
2. Spell Snare tears them a new one.
3. They have about 10-15 dead draws pre-board.
4. They have little or no way to gain card advantage.
5. They have no options but to walk their threats into your counter wall.
6. The matchup gets infinitely worse for them after boarding.

This matchup is like 90-10 favored for Landstill. Lam lost to Reid Duke in their previous meeting, only because Lam did not draw lands in either game. That's one of the few ways that Miracles can win. The other way is if they resolve T1 Top, T2 Counterbalance with FOW backup. Barring those two scenarios, there is almost no opportunity for Miracles to win.

[Qweerios]

When Lam was working in Montreal, we would often play-test and he was so stubborn about playing a UR deck (Delver or Standstill). Eventually he ended up playing Ub Landstill with Deluge, Innocent Blood, and Creeping Tar Pit. I feel like Bolt and SB options such as Pyroblast and Pyroclasm are the only cards you really want in this deck. There are very little drawbacks to playing a Grixis Landstill version in terms of mana availability either so that might be a possibility.

Also, I never liked Stifles in his deck. They sometimes lead to an early Ancestral Recall but judging by the amount of times this deck loses to a resolved TNN or Goyf, I would rather have additional answers and lands. As much as this deck wants to constantly counter spells, the fact is that Goyf decks tend to have 4 more free counters than Landstill gives them an edge in resolving their early threats.

[Shock Wave]

When Lam was working in Montreal, we would often play-test and he was so stubborn about playing a UR deck (Delver or Standstill). Eventually he ended up playing Ub Landstill with Deluge, Innocent Blood, and Creeping Tar Pit. I feel like Bolt and SB options such as Pyroblast and Pyroclasm are the only cards you really want in this deck. There are very little drawbacks to playing a Grixis Landstill version in terms of mana availability either so that might be a possibility.

Also, I never liked Stifles in his deck. They sometimes lead to an early Ancestral Recall but judging by the amount of times this deck loses to a resolved TNN or Goyf, I would rather have additional answers and lands. As much as this deck wants to constantly counter spells, the fact is that Goyf decks tend to have 4 more free counters than Landstill gives them an edge in resolving their early threats.

I played a grixis build on MODO for about 6 months, and came to the conclusion that the only thing it is better at is dealing with TNN, Goyf, and Thrun. The problem is that the manabase is significantly weaker and more vulnerable. I certainly don't agree that there are "very little" drawbacks to playing a 3 colour build. Adding a third colour is a huge, significant drawback.

Stifle is one of the best cards in the deck. I think I lost track of how many free wins it gave me. Hitting an early fetch is just an absolute blow out 9/10 times. Dealing with Goyfs in G1 is an issue, but if you're still losing to Goyf in G2 and G3, you're doing something wrong. All those matchups become quite favorable after boarding.

[Shock Wave]

I knew that you had sold him on your list mate, well done to you too, that's a good record. The draws are a tough break... What are people wanting to do in response to your Sudden Shock that the Split Second was foiling? Counter it? Bounce the targeted creature?

I can't even count the number of times that Sudden Shock wrecked house. Here are a few examples:

1. I resolved Standstill against burn and plucked away with manlands. He built up his hand in an attempt to burn me out in one big turn. Unfortunately, I had multiple Sudden Shocks that won that battle. He was not pleased.

2. Mother of Runes.

3. Delver.

4. Monastery Swiftspear.

5. Jace.

6. Against Merfolk Lords during the attack step. This won me what is an almost unwinnable matchup.

7. Infect.

... the list goes on. It was absolute gold all day.

[pandaman]

I can't even count the number of times that Sudden Shock wrecked house. Here are a few examples:

1. I resolved Standstill against burn and plucked away with manlands. He built up his hand in an attempt to burn me out in one big turn. Unfortunately, I had multiple Sudden Shocks that won that battle. He was not pleased.

2. Mother of Runes.

3. Delver.

4. Monastery Swiftspear.

5. Jace.

6. Against Merfolk Lords during the attack step. This won me what is an almost unwinnable matchup.

7. Infect.

... the list goes on. It was absolute gold all day.
The Burn situation is epic, well done! Thanks for the explanation, and congratulations on your result yet again.

[AgrusKos,EnforcerofTruth]

Mostly, but also getting tokens from Pyromancer gets cut off as well.
How exactly does this work?

[Meekrab]

How exactly does this work?
If I Sudden Shock your Pyromancer, what are you going to do to get tokens before my Shock resolves?

[AgrusKos,EnforcerofTruth]

If I Sudden Shock your Pyromancer, what are you going to do to get tokens before my Shock resolves?
Okay, I thought maybe the poster was saying you could somehow cast Sudden Shock after the spell, but before YP triggers. It is important to note that you have to receive priority after the Young Pyromancer resolves in order to Sudden Shock it, so it doesn't completely shut off Young Pyromancer, just severely limits him.

[Kobal]

Against Infect, he misplayed in both Games 2 and 3, which is why he lost. He actually had very strong draws in all 3 games and had a highly favorable matchup. Unfortunately, his opponent played extremely well and Lam made some hasty decisions.

Could you elaborate on this with a few examples for those of us new to the deck?

[B88]

hi there!
i would post here my list of Landstill control.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Innocent Blood
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Treasure Cruise
3 Ponder
3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Scalding tarn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell

that version is similar of Lam Phan deck but i add the third colour anche delete the denial package, because i think that now with cruise is very hard win in this way.
we have 5 draw engine: 3standstill and 2cruise.
also we have 8 remuval with cc1, that there are perfect with standstill. the deck works well in testing, but i'm afraid that against deck like burn, or similar, is goig to be hard win. about that i thoght that could be a good choice counterbalance + sensei lock. i would cut 3ponders and 2cruise and use these slots.


the side is a working progress process!

anyway any thoughts? advice?

[FoolofaTook]

@B88

You can't play Standstill without Wasteland. How will you manage your opponents manlands once you've dropped Standstill?

[pandaman]

@B88

You can't play Standstill without Wasteland. How will you manage your opponents manlands once you've dropped Standstill?
Well, to be fair, you can, but I wouldn't consider it optimal. You would struggle against Merfolk (Mutavault), and maybe also Miracles/BUG if they drew Collonade/Tar Pit.

[FoolofaTook]

Well, to be fair, you can, but I wouldn't consider it optimal. You would struggle against Merfolk (Mutavault), and maybe also Miracles/BUG if they drew Collonade/Tar Pit.

Infect would be bad also as would Lands and the mirror would be a nightmare.

[pandaman]

Very true.

[B88]

sorry but, how many mirror you are going to find??? :eek: in 6 years that i play i've found this deck i think 2 times!
and against bug he as only 1/2 pit...not 6 manland like us....

and how many times you have to mulligan because you've 2 colourless land??? and often you are going to lock yourself because you have only brainstorm, who is the only cantrip! i don't like play a deck where the open hand decide the game....

[Valtrix]

I mean, justifying wasteland on a flimsy assumption like needing to kill opposing manlands under standstill is not enough reason to justify it. You need more motivation than that to run wasteland, I hope anyway. Decks with manlands are a very small portion of decks in the current meta. Your own manlands are enough to answer opposing manlands in most circumstances.

[Tormod]

Wastelands are important in land still because they serve as a piece of disruption that doesn't interact with stand still

[btm10]

Wastelands are important in land still because they serve as a piece of disruption that doesn't interact with stand still

Also, Stifle is much worse without Wasteland.

[kiblast]

Questioning Stifle/Wasteland in this environment is not possible imho. They provide so much sinergy with the cheap counters AND Standstill that you can't cut them. For sure the reason I'd play them is not opponents manlands… who plays manlands today? My concern is another. What do you do when opponent resolves something with thoughness above 4? You need more answers than just Snap/bolt or Mishra/Bolt, or the singleton Jace bounce. Maindeck explosvives should be considered imho.

[B88]

what i think is that:
1. denial is not good when an opponent draw 3 with one U
2. you have stifle in your hand and play stand...if your opponent are smart, will crack their fetch under standstill and your stifle will look you without target
3. how many times you are going to mulligan because you have colorless lands???
4. how can you manage goyf or nemesis in g1?

for these reason i build this list

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Innocent Blood
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Badlands

[kiblast]

what i think is that:
1. denial is not good when an opponent draw 3 with one U
2. you have stifle in your hand and play stand...if your opponent are smart, will crack their fetch under standstill and your stifle will look you without target
3. how many times you are going to mulligan because you have colorless lands???
4. how can you manage goyf or nemesis in g1?



1. you play Pierces and Fow, and you play Cruise as well probably
2. You may want to reconsider legacy as a whole if you think that Stifle doesnt have targets beyond fetchlands.
3. Every time your deckbuilding skills fail
4. Finally a decent question, and no, with the huge amount of Pyromancers around Innocent Blood is not an option.

[B88]

1. you play Pierces and Fow, and you play Cruise as well probably
2. You may want to reconsider legacy as a whole if you think that Stifle doesnt have targets beyond fetchlands.
3. Every time your deckbuilding skills fail
4. Finally a decent question, and no, with the huge amount of Pyromancers around Innocent Blood is not an option.

1and 2. yes but the denial plan (that is one was the reason for play waste, stifle and this deck) where will go?
3. 8 colorless land and 1mountain is not the best with all U spells
4. you have toxic maindek and ee....the lan pham list hasn't...

anyway if you tried my version you right!

[rancOr_]

@B88
First off, very nice list !

I have been playing Landstill now and then aswell both in Legacy and Vintage for long time and I agree about your conclusions. The UR Landstill list (which is very similar to vintage UR) has indeed sometimes got those bad draws with multiple colorless lands .. I feel like the deck plays atleast 1-2 too few blue sources. Cutting the mana denial package and increasing the consistency of the deck (adding ponders and blue lands) seems what I want to do aswell.
Unlike some pple saying you "need" Wasteland in Landstill, thats not entirely true. If you are not running stifles , it makes sense to cut Wasteland..
I think the sideboard can incorporate 2 Engineered Plague very well, and maybe a second Toxic Deluge/Perish/Darkblast. Engineered Plague doubles as both an answer to Pyromancer tokens,elves, human vs dxt...

Greetz

[B88]

@B88
First off, very nice list !

I have been playing Landstill now and then aswell both in Legacy and Vintage for long time and I agree about your conclusions. The UR Landstill list (which is very similar to vintage UR) has indeed sometimes got those bad draws with multiple colorless lands .. I feel like the deck plays atleast 1-2 too few blue sources. Cutting the mana denial package and increasing the consistency of the deck (adding ponders and blue lands) seems what I want to do aswell.
Unlike some pple saying you "need" Wasteland in Landstill, thats not entirely true. If you are not running stifles , it makes sense to cut Wasteland..
I think the sideboard can incorporate 2 Engineered Plague very well, and maybe a second Toxic Deluge/Perish/Darkblast. Engineered Plague doubles as both an answer to Pyromancer tokens,elves, human vs dxt...

Greetz

thx you..you anderstand what i mean.
the side is a working progress area. we have many cards but 4/6 slots are evergreen, like: relic, fluster, and mass remuval (pyroclasm, E. plauge and ee). :cool:

[pandaman]

B88, why Black over White? Swords to Plowshares and Supreme Verdict seem attractive options.

[pandaman]

@B88
First off, very nice list !

I have been playing Landstill now and then aswell both in Legacy and Vintage for long time and I agree about your conclusions. The UR Landstill list (which is very similar to vintage UR) has indeed sometimes got those bad draws with multiple colorless lands .. I feel like the deck plays atleast 1-2 too few blue sources. Cutting the mana denial package and increasing the consistency of the deck (adding ponders and blue lands) seems what I want to do aswell.
Unlike some pple saying you "need" Wasteland in Landstill, thats not entirely true. If you are not running stifles , it makes sense to cut Wasteland..
I think the sideboard can incorporate 2 Engineered Plague very well, and maybe a second Toxic Deluge/Perish/Darkblast. Engineered Plague doubles as both an answer to Pyromancer tokens,elves, human vs dxt...

Greetz
I think that the mana issues in Vintage Ux Landstill are worse because you don't have four Brainstorms and you're always trying to hit UU for your playset of Mana Drain. You also play 10 colourless lands (4 Mishra's Factory, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine, 1 Library of Alexandria) instead of seven. I think if you Mulligan judiciously with Lam's list it's worth the risk. Especially because with 4 Wasteland and 4 Stifle your opponent there is a good probability your opponent is going to be as mana screwed as you, if not more.

[pandaman]

Questioning Stifle/Wasteland in this environment is not possible imho. They provide so much sinergy with the cheap counters AND Standstill that you can't cut them. For sure the reason I'd play them is not opponents manlands… who plays manlands today? My concern is another. What do you do when opponent resolves something with thoughness above 4? You need more answers than just Snap/bolt or Mishra/Bolt, or the singleton Jace bounce. Maindeck explosvives should be considered imho.
I admit that this is a weakness in the deck. If a Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, or True-Name Nemesis resolves, you are forced to: (a) double Lightning Bolt and occasionally chump, resulting in a 2 or 3-for-1; or (b) try to race. The vast majority of the time, though, you're in the position to race, because they don't usually resolve the bigger creatures until later in the game due to your counters and card advantage engines. Ur Dreadstill usually runs 2 or 3 Engineered Explosives sideboard to deal with those types of creatures, and I note Lam's list has them, along with 4 Relic of Progenitus to attempt to shrink down Goyf and Knight.

I think that Lam actually used to play a single EE in the main deck, but perhaps due to the prevelance of Bolt-able creatures he decided to remove it to fit in Red Elemental Blast.

[B88]

B88, why Black over White? Swords to Plowshares and Supreme Verdict seem attractive options.

good question!
let me explain: i've tryed the white before the black but against nemesi you have just virdict and cc is 4, also, many decks who run TNN has wasteland a they could take off our double W. with black you have 4 (5 with ee) answers for TNN and they need just one balck, and obv reb! :tongue:

i've played a tournament with over 200players, unfortunately, i've lost the last round for reach in top8 :cry: anyway i close the tournament 5Win 1Lost 2D with a deck that i've built 4days before.
if you are interested here there is future match that i won against miracle: http://www.twitch.tv/mtgquality/b/596363931

[kiblast]

For those of you willing to stick to UR, Skullcrack and any attacker kill Nemesis, and provide a decent one turn answer to Batterskull.

[B88]

Like i said before about standstill and stifle....

from http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29896_The-Portland-Postmortem.html
"A manland can force them to break early, but we don't always have that luxury. In the meantime, you're both sitting there making tons of land drops. Stifle is similarly mediocre, and I found myself disliking it a great deal over the course of the event. "

[Isaac]

If you find stifle to be useless in your meta then cool don't use them otherwise I think the article is miss judging it's effects in bigger tournaments. Stile is a powerhouse card early mid or even late game. The same statement could be used for wasteland which is why people are saying it's an auto include. During my recent testings and the local tournament I played in stifle was huge as well as wasteland. Wasteland eats karakas,cradle, keeps ur delver decks in check cause they run few lands. It also gets 12 post keeps mana away from storm keeps deathblade off either colors or cutting off mana to play batterskull. The instances where I ran into stifle during the recent tournament and stifled swiftspear triggers young peezy tokens fetches. During a miracles match up I stifled a top trigger to get bolt dm in. Using a stifle on a stoneforge can buy you time along with storm. In the tournament I was really satisfied with both and really the only changes I would consider now are faerie conclave,dig,cruise,jace,land config. Swords kept me from killing the miracles guy getting two factories. Conclave never made an appearance. Jace was only used to throw to a force. Cruise was huge for me but with my lack of play with the deck and interactions with snap caster the cards you delve are huge. Dig while I can see being a cute addition I dunno if I want it in the 60. You also have to remember that relic is a nonbo with delve cards after you pop it off. I would like to see how Clique runs in the deck. I would also like to see how ponder would work or top.

[thefreakaccident]

Urw landstill

lands//20
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
4 volcanic island
2 tundra
4 mishra's factory
1 mutavualt

creatures//2
2 true-name nemesis

Draw spells//18
4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 standstill
3 treasure cruise

control//20
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
1 counterspell
4 lightning bolt
4 forked bolt
3 swords to plowshares

People going down on draw 3's are crazy. You should be playing seven.

Tested this against U/R pyromancer last night, and it was almost a clean sweep 10-0. The only game I lost was a punt on my part. Swords/bolt deal with delver/swiftspear, forked bolt takes care of mancer. There's occasionally a few 1/1s, but you honestly don't even care about them. Basically, even if my opponent went for treasure cruise, I had my own, answers for his threats, and standstill to lay ontop of all this plus manlands. I never once felt like I didn't have the advantage. After you kill their threats, and you resolve a single draw 3, you've already won because you can continue to chain draw 3's.

[B88]

yesterday i had a tournament, 36players, so 6turns and top8. and i won! :tongue:
i won against:
Junk 2-0
Post 2-0
Burn 2-0
Canadian 2-1
Miracle 2-0
DeT 2-0
Grixis (GP list) 2-0

i lost only against Mud

i used the follow list
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Innocent Blood
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
3 Polluted Delta
2 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Badlands
2 sensei's diving top

side:
3 spell pierce
2 flusterstorm
3 relic of progenitus
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Engineered Explosives
1 pyroblast
2 vendilion clique
1 pithing needle

so i took this deck 2 times (2 tournament) after 16 rounds i lose just 2times and 2draw :smile:

[thefreakaccident]

Been testing more vs the U/r delver/pyromancer matchups with my 7 draw 3 config. They don't seem to be able to even compare to the deck. The last couple games I played vs pyromancer, I got them to absolutely nothing, then continued to chain draw 3's. They can usually get you to about 10 life, but by that time they have no hand and no threats on the board, and you've already refueled. I'm looking forward to testing vs Uwr delver soon. Anyone that plays it competently, and would like to test vs hardcore blue control, pm plz.

[Bobmans]

Not to be cinical or whatever, but why play this over UBGx Landstill?
UBGx Landstill deck does about the same, but better (and maybe a bit slower i guess).

[B88]

Not to be cinical or whatever, but why play this over UBGx Landstill?
UBGx Landstill deck does about the same, but better (and maybe a bit slower i guess).

he hasn't one red counter/destroy a permanent (reb)! too many cruise in this meta! :tongue:

[rancOr_]

Nice finish! U played with 61 ? I see u replaced ponder with SDT ,seems nice. Also how were the smash ? I still like engineered plague a lot in the sb but I guess u didn't really need it.

[B88]

Nice finish! U played with 61 ? I see u replaced ponder with SDT ,seems nice. Also how were the smash ? I still like engineered plague a lot in the sb but I guess u didn't really need it.

sry there are 60! my mistake!....i play 2 underground not 3.
yes i try sensei because under stand is very good...
i choose 2 smash but one of them could be the sencond needle...and with 2 toxic in maindeck are enough i think! :tongue:

[thefreakaccident]

The deck is evolving in a very good way. I just had to work up the courage to do the one thing I thought would be completely unacceptable. I cut lightning bolt.

lands//20
4 mishra's factory
1 mutavault
3 tundra
3 volcanic island
3 flooded strand
2 arid mesa
3 scalding tarn

creatures//3
3 true-name nemesis

spells//37
4 swords to plowshares
4 forked bolt
3 engineered explosives

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 standstill
3 treasure cruise

4 force of will
4 spell pierce

sideboard//
4 rest in peace
4 meddling mage
3 spell snare
1 engineered explosives
3 red elemental blast

I've noticed an immediate boon against goyfs right away. Also got a few quality games against Uwr delver and elves. Explosives was pretty good set at zero vs delver, first killing the delver, and then eventually the germ token. It also stalled out elves long enough for me to chain draw spells and forked bolts. I'm pretty glad too, because I was starting to fear counterbalance.

[thefreakaccident]

Played a minor tournament tonight. (10 players) four rounds.


It wasn't the most competitive bunch, as I was the only blue deck there other than a singleton merfolk deck that was going around, but wasn't actually played in tournament.

The list I ran:

lands//23
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
3 tundra
3 vokcanic island
2 island
4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave

creatures//3
3 snapcaster mage

spells//34
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 treasure cruise
3 spell snare
3 counterspell
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 lightning bolt
3 engineered explosives
2 jace, the mind sculpter


sideboard//
2 containment priest (been worried about the WW cost here)
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 hyrdoblast
4 flusterstorm
2 rest in peace
1 surgical extraction
1 pyroclasm/engineered explosives




Round one was DnT, and both games he starts off with heavy manadisruption, but I counter his threats and eventually land standstill, which hoses him without vial. I chain draw 3's and keep his board clear both games with bolts/swords+snapcasters before slapping him to death with mishras factories.
2-0

Round two was explorer ramp. Veteran explorers land both games, but I get lucky starting with swords both times it lands. This slows him down until I eventually start chaining draw 3's. I counterspell everything he plays until he's im topdeck mode, where I continue countering his spells and beating face.
2-0

Round three was actually very funny. My opponent basically only played discard and land destruction all game. My hand was filled with counters, but I didn't have to counter much. Snapcaster mages and counterspells got the job done after he emptied his hand. Game two he used all his land disruption on my colored producers, just to get beaten down by mishra's factory. lol
3-0

Round four was a form of combo lands. Game one, he starts off slow, trying to play ramp cards like normal lands.dec, but then he starts playing black producing lands, and discard spells, and I know i'm in for pain. I counter as much as I can until I have to brainstorm to put swords back on top. He assembles the combo, and I've drawn swords. I can't drop my standstill in hand, but I only have one threat on board. He had 1 card in hand. He goes for the combo at my endstep, and I swords it. He draws a blank. I play standstill, and pray he doesn't lucksack into the combo. He doesn't. I draw another manland and take them to victory before a final counter/discard battle at the the very end.

I saw loams, so I bring in surgical extraction and rest in peace.

Game two he goes for broke and gets an uncounterable turn 2 20/20. I say goddamn and scoop. Game three comes around, we're nowhere near time, but everyone is watching the game, still smiling about the turn 2 20/20 kill. We draw our opening seven and it happens again. I didn't draw swords, but my grave hate was in hand, and irrelevant. At that point I had to extend the hand. GG
3-1


It probably wasn't the best meta to get results out of, but the deck felt really overpowered when it was working, and a lot of people complained specifically about the deck :).

If the meta was a 'standard' legacy meta flooded with blue, I would've ran 1-2 mainboard blasts.


Also got a lot of testing vs Uwr delver in with a buddy online before the tournament. The results were extremely promising, backing my previous results back when I was running 12 spot removal. I lost 2 games out of 5 best of 3's. and didn't lose a single whole match. He tried it both ways, wasting colored sources, just to have manlands begin to do work later in the game, then wasting manlands just to have the colored sources provide immediate answers and resupply. I felt extremely favored most of the session, and only found myself sweating a situation a couple of times more than the ones that I lost. It was only when he busted out his merfolk deck that I finally started losing. I really hope that doesn't become a deck again. I'ts not unbeatable, but it's a dogfight for sure.

[FoolofaTook]

Pham's list had 4 wastes and 4 stifle. Not losing to Depths most of the time.

[sawatarix]

I also toyed around with B88's Grixis Landstill deck and the deck is amazing.
A big recommendation to all of you who love to slamm Standstill on the table ;)

[crush]

I also toyed around with B88's Grixis Landstill deck and the deck is amazing.
A big recommendation to all of you who love to slamm Standstill on the table ;)

+1

Gave the deck a quick spin. It felt quite strong and a sure was a blast to play with :)

[sawatarix]

I was also successful in my testings with it.
This deck has the tools to deal with nearly every deck, miracle is nearly a bye and midrange and tempodecks are also beatable.
The only ominous thing is that grixis control has just a few ways to get rid of problematic enchantments,artifacts and planeswalkers.
sure, we have a lot of countermagic but once the permanents hit the field there are only 2 engineered explosives left.
What i would like to say is that abrupt decay would be nice to have in such a deck but playing 4 colours has its own disadvantages.

claudio and i have been searching for a bomb in this deck, something like entreat the angels which can win on the spot.
You know, an 'oops, i win' button in the lategame.
If you have any suggestions, please let me know ;)

[crush]

Unfortunately I don't know of any card quite as good as Entreat at doing what Entreat does.

The best ones I can think of are Keranos and Pack rat, but both are quite slow compared to entreat :rolleyes:

[thefreakaccident]

Pham's list had 4 wastes and 4 stifle. Not losing to Depths most of the time.

But that's the thing. Will hex-depths make it deep past the wastelands/stifles like we will? Hopefully not. I'm gunna bank on that until the deck starts beasting big tourneys.

The deck's matchups against virtually all else are just too good.



I've been messing around with the black splash a bit, but I haven't been liking the two innocent blood. If the opponent has multiple critters, oftentimes its the one that'll kill you that sticks on the board. Aside from that, the list worked great. Gunna stick with my current config though.

[JosephK]

claudio and i have been searching for a bomb in this deck, something like entreat the angels which can win on the spot.
You know, an 'oops, i win' button in the lategame.
If you have any suggestions, please let me know ;)

A "bomb" in the Grixis colours would be the Painter package but it takes some slots (2 Painter 1 trinket 1-2 Recruiter 1 Grindstone at least). Recruiter can fetch snap :).

[sawatarix]

well, pack rats sounds interesting.

but i'm thinking more of a real 'bomb', something like a better pearl lake ancient.Something really robust which can win the game in just a few turns.
What we tried before as a one-off in our main so far:

batterskull
keranos
koth of the hammer

I stil believe there is something better than those cards.

[B88]

Hi guys.
as Sawatarix wrote the only "problem" for the deck is close fast the game....we have 2 or 3 options i think:
1) stifle+dreadnought
2) add maindeck or side one tropical and add tarmogoyf in side
3) i don't know :cry:

the deck has good mu against miracle and midrange deck, is quite good against tempo deck....

[sawatarix]

tarmogoyf in the main could also be an option.
So the deck gets 2 gameplans:
the fast tarmogoyf beatdown plan with backup countermagic and carddraw engines OR a hardcore snapcaster-controldeck with lategame tarmogoyf to close out the game.
We get more flexible in general so i appreciate this approach.
But: Splashing a 4th colour has it's own drawbacks.

[crush]

I will surely try 2 pack rats in the deck.

The card is mana intensive, but can end games much quicker then it might look at first sight :)

It even has pseudo immunity to all sorts of spot removal - it is only weak versus terminus, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Also, it is great vs combo if you can deploy it early.

Ideal scenario:
1) you would deploy the rat when you have 5 mana available (and some control over the board); EOT discard and make a copy: you have 2 2/2 rats
2) swing for 4, you can pay 6 and double discard for 8 dmg or wait and swing for 16+ next turn

[rancOr_]

I never had troubles finishing the games in time, although I'm not playing with SDT -that will slow things down a lot.. I just play 3 Snapcaster 4 Mishra 2 Jace 1 Keranos. U only need one resilient wincondition to get around things like PFire and end the game no matter what. Keranos does this best as once it resolves it wins fast and can only be removed by Council's Judgement.

Greetz

[death]

I haven't been following the thread but looking at lists from the previous page, wouldn't Dig Through Time fit better than those 2-off Treasure Cruises? DTT is 1) an instant 2) draws 2 of the best cards. In a control deck, you'd want specific, answer cards. CQ > CA, since the deck is threat-light and you aren't in aggro-mode.

[sawatarix]

yep, dig though time is definately better than cruise in this deck because it does everything we want to have: an instant drawmachine which gives us always 2 counterspells/removal or even more cardadvantage like standstills and jaces.

what i dislike about lam phans list is the lack of answers to a resolved true name nemesis and tarmogoyf. So turning to a grixis or even 4 colour build open new windows for us,primarythe better removal black has to offer (innocent blood,abrupt decay,toxic deluge)

another card i really like in a landstill deck is an oldschool one: vedalken shackles.
Just think of it, how good is it under a standstill? ;)

[Holly]

Besides wanted to be Grixis and not on the UWR train.. Why black instead of white? Innocent Blood is weak at the moment. I love the card but its not strong positioned right now. Okay you get Deluge which definitly is something.. though I honestly doubt its much better (if any) than Pyroclasm right now.
White offers you StP instead of Bolts thus you won't have anymore problems with some random Goyf you could not counter. I seriously doubt Deluge (as an answer to a resolved TNN mostly) is enough better to make up playing the worse removal. Also white definitly has some sweeter sideboard options than black offers.

[death]

Why black instead of white?
....

White offers you StP instead of Bolts

You almost answered your own question. Bolts enable you to reach/ casually dome your opponent. White offers StP but not Pyroblast.


Not to be cinical or whatever, but why play this over UBGx Landstill?
UBGx Landstill deck does about the same, but better (and maybe a bit slower i guess).

Efficiency? 1 v. 2 mana difference is huge, Pyro/Bolt > Abrupt Decay. How does this deck usually takes care of creatures >3 toughness like Goyf etc? I know Toxic Deluge is an option for those who splash black. But aside from that (and EE), Innocent Blood main deck any good?

With Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor possibly joining force, and Manifest introduced as a mechanic.. I can see why Toxic D and EE are good main deck.

[sawatarix]

especially if you play snapcaster (and i believe this deck is the best snapcaster deck in the format !) instants and sorceries with cmc1 are a necessety.
It is actually important that our spells are as cheap as possible because our plan is to disrupt our opponent while we attack him/her with our manlands which costs additional 2-3 mana.

[Holly]

You almost answered your own question. Bolts enable you to reach/ casually dome your opponent. White offers StP but not Pyroblast.


I did not talk about white instead of red.. as red is definitly the second color. But if you chose to go for 3 colors Whites > Black. So your remark about Pyroblast is completly irrelevant..
And yeah sure.. Bolt goes to the face... obviously. Important in a control deck? Some of the time surely it is. But so would be removing larger creatures as some of you pointed out they dislike their trouble against resolved fatties thus seeking the splash of a 3rd color.

[death]

Please accept my apologies, I misconstrued your statement. FWIW, Supreme Verdict may actually be good with UR(w) as shell.

Edit— I was torn between B88's and thefreakaccident's lists. But however you slice control, in the end it's cheap spells 3,2,1 cc > 4 cc.

tl; dr Grixis

[Holly]

Please accept my apologies, I misconstrued your statement. FWIW, Supreme Verdict may actually be good with UR(w) as shell.

Edit— I was torn between B88's and thefreakaccident's lists. But however you slice control, in the end it's cheap spells 3,2,1 cc > 4 cc.

tl; dr Grixis

Well of course cheap spells are better then expensive one. I haven't even talked about Supreme Verdict as ww sucks on the splash.
So if you leave it out, the only strength of black is playing like 1-2 Deluges to fight a resolved TNN.
Thats it.
White has way better sideboard options, white upgrades your removal to make you having less problems against resolved fatties.
So just leaving out the option of Supreme Verdict/Councils Judgment (or to a lesser extent EE) to fight TNN, as in leaving these cards completly out of discussion, do you really think a resolved (which defintily should not be a given) TNN (which is kinda rare at the moment) is worth the downsize in power? I for myself seriously doubt that.

[crush]

I think the best thing black has over white is that Toxic Deluge is way easier to cast then Supreme Verdict. The double white in the mana cost is quite prohibitive with this manabase (with manlands).

Actually the Grixis variant functions quite well on U/R for the most part and you can only fetch for B right before you need to cast T.Deluge.

[B88]

i've tryed with withe at the beginnig, but it has 3 problemes...
1) you have only 1/2 answers for tnn on board ----- verdict and council's
2) verdict and council's need 2w and all deck with tnn (almost) run wasteland
3) against ur on turn 4 (verdict) you are dead...

[Holly]

Okay guys, I give up.
As said before.. I tried to leave out Judgment/Verdict OUT of the discussion as I agree on ALL those points (ww, cc4, etc). Which is why I did not start to adress them.. However I did try to ask another question which I apparently failed to make clear.

[FoolofaTook]

1) stifle+dreadnought


Ur Landstill and Ur Dreadstill are about a dozen cards apart (-4 Daze, -3/4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -4 Delver of Secrets, +2 Spell Snare, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Counterspell, +2 Faerie Conclave, +1 Jace, +3 Sudden Shock) this assuming you are on the normal 4 Stifle and 3/4 Wastelands plan. I'm pretty sure the best list in the meta right now lies somewhere in this region. The reasons are the basic simplicity of only having one main color, meaning lots of basics, and a single splash color that does something that is relevant in every matchup. Couple that with blue card draw and selection and a plan that either prevents the opponent's early development or prevents him from casting much in the mid-game and you have a very strong structure in this meta.

[thefreakaccident]

6-8 colorless sources seems like a bit much. I've actually been losing a lot of games due to mishra mulligans lately. It's funny how when i play decks with 16-18 land, I never get manascrewed, but in decks with higher land-counts, I always get manascrewed. Too ironic. That being said, I think colorless sources are of issue, and can lead to many more game-losses than necessary. I need to come up with some ideas that don't hinder the amount of wincons, while also simultaneously fixing the mana. Even though I know my losses have been strictly due to bad luck, I want to minimize mishra mulls as much as humanly possible.

[rancOr_]

I think BUR is really good atm; have been testing this list lately:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Innocent Blood
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dig Through Time
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

I like Engineered Plague alot, can come in vs Elves,DxT,U(W)R,.. very versatile card just like EE and Toxic Deluge which is what this deck needs. Only thing im not sure yet about is the #of md REB/Pyro.

[death]

I think BUR is really good atm. I like Engineered Plague alot, can come in vs Elves,DxT,U(W)R,.. very versatile card just like EE and Toxic Deluge which is what this deck needs.
E. Plague can be dealt with, it also suffers against non-tribal. At the same cost, this card takes care of => 2 toughness, it also doesn't require Sunburst like EE:

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sudden-Demise-Commander-2013-Spoiler.jpg
Upside of E. Plague is that it can deal with Mom and TNN, like Toxic Deluge. But not against the likes of Young Pyromancer + tokens where Sudden Demise is better.


3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

I suggest running a singleton Badlands in Grixis builds, this will protect from Surgical Extraction effects on non-basics as the deck can still function: Island + Badlands.

[FoolofaTook]

6-8 colorless sources seems like a bit much. I've actually been losing a lot of games due to mishra mulligans lately. It's funny how when i play decks with 16-18 land, I never get manascrewed, but in decks with higher land-counts, I always get manascrewed. Too ironic. That being said, I think colorless sources are of issue, and can lead to many more game-losses than necessary. I need to come up with some ideas that don't hinder the amount of wincons, while also simultaneously fixing the mana. Even though I know my losses have been strictly due to bad luck, I want to minimize mishra mulls as much as humanly possible.

When I try to play 14 colored and 7 colorless sources I get Mishra's mulls. When I play 16 and 7 I don't. That's why I've gone to 23 land in my Ur builds. I take out two spells and add 2 Faerie Conclaves and the Mishra's mulls go away.

[twndomn]

Hi guys.
as Sawatarix wrote the only "problem" for the deck is close fast the game....we have 2 or 3 options i think:
1) stifle+dreadnought
2) add maindeck or side one tropical and add tarmogoyf in side
3) i don't know :cry:

the deck has good mu against miracle and midrange deck, is quite good against tempo deck....


Let's say you're able to trade 1-for-1 early game and eventually net enough CA via Standstill, is it possible to use Isochron Scepter as a kill condition once you're certain both your opponent and you are lower on resources? Might be viable now since BUG decks are on the decline.

[sawatarix]

Isochron Scepter is a nice one: imprinting a counterspell or Lightning bolt is always welcome in such a deck as it stops their important spells and creatures permanently.
It is a pity that we can't imprint treasure cruise in isochron scepter although it is a 'cc1' spell most of the time, that would be the most broken thing ever in magic history ;D

1-2 vedalken shackles are also great weapons in a field of fair decks, grab the best one they have ;)

[FoolofaTook]

Isochron Scepter is a nice one: imprinting a counterspell or Lightning bolt is always welcome in such a deck as it stops their important spells and creatures permanently.
It is a pity that we can't imprint treasure cruise in isochron scepter although it is a 'cc1' spell most of the time, that would be the most broken thing ever in magic history ;D

1-2 vedalken shackles are also great weapons in a field of fair decks, grab the best one they have ;)

Scepter is a dead end though. You can't build a list around it and succeed and it's really conditional as a 1-of or 2-of because you also can't reliably save the spell to imprint on it. Then you add the fact that it costs 4 to use on the turn you cast it and it's very expensive for what it does.

As 1-of or 2-of there are several better artifacts that are also unusable at the moment due to cost or the way the meta is configured, as you mention Vedalken Shackles probably being the best of them. Crucible of Worlds and Ensnaring Bridge are also in the conversation as is Pithing Needle main list.

The best artifact not commonly used in Landstill is Sensei's Divining Top. That's the one that having a 2-of might actually make a big impact.

[twndomn]

Scepter is a dead end though. You can't build a list around it and succeed and it's really conditional as a 1-of or 2-of because you also can't reliably save the spell to imprint on it. Then you add the fact that it costs 4 to use on the turn you cast it and it's very expensive for what it does.

As 1-of or 2-of there are several better artifacts that are also unusable at the moment due to cost or the way the meta is configured, as you mention Vedalken Shackles probably being the best of them. Crucible of Worlds and Ensnaring Bridge are also in the conversation as is Pithing Needle main list.

The best artifact not commonly used in Landstill is Sensei's Divining Top. That's the one that having a 2-of might actually make a big impact.

I wouldn't describe Scepter as a dead end. It's only good under certain board state and certain MU. Most Vial decks, being Goblin and DnT, have very little ways to deal with Scepter. You can easily Stifle their comes-into-play destroy artifact triggers, or just counter their wear//tear or disenchant. The key to using Scepter is to Not save it. If you get to use it twice in a game, you break even. If you get to use it for the 3rd time and more, you're in the bonus territory. Hence, being as a conditional or additional win-con is fine. It's another angle of attack forcing opponent to have it.

The problem with Shackle is that you cannot take the creature you really want. I want your Griselbrand or Emrakul, but if that's the case I probably lost already. While Bridge can stop 7/7 or 15/15, it really does goes against our game plan since We have a lot of passive answers in our deck. In all, I dislike artifacts that don't contribute to winning itself. Artifacts providing lock or card quality are fine cards on its own, but I rather present another threat. Another JTMS or planeswalker might work better.

[death]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=369031&type=card

This dude looks interesting, he might have a home here. He basically costs 3. He can deal with dorks, tap mazes of ith, tap opponents' mana source to prevent combat shenanigans, tap a blocker or dome for lethal. You can pump your factory and untap it to deal extra points of damage. His ultimate ability of giving extra turns after factory beats maybe enough to finish the game.

[FoolofaTook]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=369031&type=card

This dude looks interesting, he might have a home here. He basically costs 3. He can deal with dorks, tap mazes of ith, tap opponents' mana source to prevent combat shenanigans, tap a blocker or dome for lethal. You can pump your factory and untap it to deal extra points of damage. His ultimate ability of giving extra turns after factory beats maybe enough to finish the game.

Why would you play this over Jace, the Mind Sculptor?

It's a good card but at the same CC Jace is just better and it's not that close. If Jace were banned then cards like Ral Zarek become an option in a Ur build. While he's available you have to play him.

[death]

Because he packs 2 Lightning Bolts (?) and having the ability to burn 2 dudes is sometimes better than bounce. I'm just surprised Koth has been mentioned in this thread a number of times, Ral seems better because he has more utility.

[thefreakaccident]

Because he packs 2 Lightning Bolts (?) and having the ability to burn 2 dudes is sometimes better than bounce. I'm just surprised Koth has been mentioned in this thread a number of times, Ral seems better because he has more utility.

Dude, i'm testing it. Seems good.

[FoolofaTook]

Because he packs 2 Lightning Bolts (?) and having the ability to burn 2 dudes is sometimes better than bounce. I'm just surprised Koth has been mentioned in this thread a number of times, Ral seems better because he has more utility.

He doesn't draw cards. He doesn't help you find what you need. His ultimate doesn't win the game. I just don't see it. Dack Fayden I could see as a possible replacement for Jace because he's cheaper to cast and he finds you stuff you need and his ultimate basically guarantees you won't lose the game unless something really funny happens. I don't think Dack Fayden is better than Jace but I could see somebody putting him in this list alongside bolts and blasts as a win-con. Keranos, God of Storms I could see because although he's very expensive to cast he'll give you an overwhelming advantage if you land him and probably win you the game.

Ral is just really weak compared to those options. If you like the effects you're seeing there it'd be better to splash white and go with Ajani Vengeant. His +1 actually potentially keeps a big beater off of you the next turn and his -2 removes the same creatures + gaining you 3 life and his ultimate basically wins the game.

[twndomn]

He doesn't draw cards. He doesn't help you find what you need. His ultimate doesn't win the game. I just don't see it. Dack Fayden I could see as a possible replacement for Jace because he's cheaper to cast and he finds you stuff you need and his ultimate basically guarantees you won't lose the game unless something really funny happens. I don't think Dack Fayden is better than Jace but I could see somebody putting him in this list alongside bolts and blasts as a win-con. Keranos, God of Storms I could see because although he's very expensive to cast he'll give you an overwhelming advantage if you land him and probably win you the game.

Ral is just really weak compared to those options. If you like the effects you're seeing there it'd be better to splash white and go with

Ultimately, Our win-condition often is still man-land attacking, and Skull/Jitte is a problem. Sure Burn helps, but Burn often is not enough. Actually once Skull/Jitte comes into play somehow, our Burn often does not matter. I agree with above but for a different reason. If any other planeswalkers, should be Dack Fayden. Because it takes over Jitte and Skull out right. I can definitely see the board state in which your opponent tries to return his Skull back to his hand in respond to Dack's ability, and you stifle that, he will not be able to pay another 3. Once that happens, you can just equip Skull to your man-land to deal with the germ token, and that's it.

Ral Zarek is meant for Stasis, not here.

Keranos is horrendously bad in the current meta, because everyone's MD is packing red Blast effect and more in the SB, hence Keranos often gets to eat a Blast on stack.

-----------------------------------------------

On a separate note, I don't understand people running EE and Not have 3rd color. Let's say your opponent plays a TNN, you tried to counter it, lost the counter war. Now, this board states feels like you're on damage race mode. What if you cannot race? Then you have to answer a resolved TNN, but EE doesn't provide that if you don't have the 3rd color. Sure EE kills token and chalice, but TNN is the bigger fish in my opinion.

[sawatarix]

please note that jace the mind sculptor>dack fayden>keranos>ralzarek (we are not playing commander here :laugh: )

Why downgrading our bombs if we can run good ones.

[B88]

ehi guys!
after that banned list our grixis landstill will be very interesting right now!!!! we can anyway run DTT after all!

what you think about it?

[twndomn]

ehi guys!
after that banned list our grixis landstill will be very interesting right now!!!! we can anyway run DTT after all!

what you think about it?

I don't think the banning of TC and the fact that landstill runs DTT are related.

Most of time, you will have oppoertunity to use Snapcaster to flashback a spell. DTT scenario is far less likely to happen.

The banning just means that people who were on UR Delver bandwagon will jump back to RUG Delver. Back to the Liliana, DRS, Wasteland, and Mongoose. If that's what the trend is, I can see BUG landstill make a comeback.

Post banning landstill crossroads

1. Stays UR
That means you feature pyroclasm and EE as your mass removal

2. Goes to proven BUG
That means you feature Pernicious deed, pulse, and maybe deluge as your mass removal

3. Innovation, maybe Bant WUG, or Jeskai WUR
I'm still trying to figure this out

[FoolofaTook]

Standstill certainly got much better again with TC banned. Not that it was ever not great but it is back to being GREAT.

I'm leaning UWb at this point. Black adds more to a list that is planning to go mid to long. Hand disruption in the SB for the combo matches and Engineered Plague to lock out tribal.

[btm10]

I just started screwing around (and that's definitely the right word) with a RUg Landstill list; I ran it at locals last night to a 2-2 finish, losing mostly to myself and building the deck at the shop 10 minutes before the tournament started. Due to time constraints, there were some...interesting deckbuilding choices brought on by the cards I had on hand and the need to have 75 by the time the tournament started. I started from Lam's GPNJ list and tried improving the clock and the mana efficiency of the kill as those were the problems I was having. Of the cards I tested, I really liked Xenagos, the Reveler and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I was running a 1/1 split of Xenagos with Garruk Wildspeaker and simply never had an opening to cast Garruk. The free Satyrs off of Xenagos, however, are fantastic at ending the game quickly. Like I said, the list I ran is very rough and I made lots of mistakes. I'll post a full revised 75 later tonight or sometime tomorrow.

[twndomn]

I just started screwing around (and that's definitely the right word) with a RUg Landstill list; I ran it at locals last night to a 2-2 finish, losing mostly to myself and building the deck at the shop 10 minutes before the tournament started. Due to time constraints, there were some...interesting deckbuilding choices brought on by the cards I had on hand and the need to have 75 by the time the tournament started. I started from Lam's GPNJ list and tried improving the clock and the mana efficiency of the kill as those were the problems I was having. Of the cards I tested, I really liked Xenagos, the Reveler and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I was running a 1/1 split of Xenagos with Garruk Wildspeaker and simply never had an opening to cast Garruk. The free Satyrs off of Xenagos, however, are fantastic at ending the game quickly. Like I said, the list I ran is very rough and I made lots of mistakes. I'll post a full revised 75 later tonight or sometime tomorrow.

I really don't see much decent Green Legacy card choices.
Goyf
Krosan Grip
Nimble Mongoose
Eternal Witness/Regrowth
Life from the Loam
Crop Rotation
GSZ
Glimpse

Notice how all these cards are less than CMC 4 (GSZ doesn't apply). When you get to CMC 4, there's no card that's remotely close to the power of JTMS, not even Natural Order. I see why you would find Xenagos attractive, but that's not the point.

The focus is not what broken stuff u can do when you play a 4 CMC spell, the focus is how do we turn the game around when you're behind on board. You can't Pernicious Deed to reset the game unless you run Green.

Black for Engineered Plague is also an attractive option against tribal decks.

[btm10]

Goyf
Krosan Grip
Nimble Mongoose
Eternal Witness/Regrowth
Life from the Loam
Crop Rotation
GSZ
Glimpse


This is just a list of green cards rather than a list of cards that are relevant to Landstill. GSZ and Glimpse are comically bad in a deck with 2-3 creatures. Witness is a strictly worse Snapcaster Mage. BUG Landstill is a known thing and a stromg deck. If you're in URx, though, you're taking a different approach from the get go. Black brings the same things to both URb and BUG, but green brings different things to RUG and BUG. Loam has great synergy with Snapcaster Mage and the Stifle/Wasteland package that BUG eschews for more removal. Xenagos is substantially more mana efficient than Creeping Tar Pit and leaves behind threats even if he's answered. Sylvan Library allows you to run a CA/CQ engine that's independent of yet complementary to Standstill. Ancient Grudge is fantastic artifact removal.



Notice how all these cards are less than CMC 4 (GSZ doesn't apply). When you get to CMC 4, there's no card that's remotely close to the power of JTMS, not even Natural Order. I see why you would find Xenagos attractive, but that's not the point.

The focus is not what broken stuff u can do when you play a 4 CMC spell, the focus is how do we turn the game around when you're behind on board. You can't Pernicious Deed to reset the game unless you run Green.

Getting behind on board is really the secondary issue. We're great early with Stifle, Bolt, Snare, Wasteland, and Pierce. We're great at grinding due to the CA that Snap and Standstill provide. Our problem is winning in the intervals of stability that Standstill prolongs once we've won the initial exchange of resources. Manlands are an important element of this strategy, but they're slow and mana intensive, meaning that you can't take full advantage of the countermagic that you draw into off of Standstill. Burn helps close things out, but that's not its primary purpose and it's not wise to try to burn your opponent out under Standstill. Planeswalkers are the logical thing to try out here. Xenagos provides a pretty impressive clock on an empty board (4 turns), can pin down a Goyf indefinitely, and does all of this without tying up your mana. I'm not advocating cutting Factory or Conclave (or Jace), but I am saying that a green splash has lots to offer the deck and is worth testing.

[twndomn]

Getting behind on board is really the secondary issue. We're great early with Stifle, Bolt, Snare, Wasteland, and Pierce. We're great at grinding due to the CA that Snap and Standstill provide. Our problem is winning in the intervals of stability that Standstill prolongs once we've won the initial exchange of resources. Manlands are an important element of this strategy, but they're slow and mana intensive, meaning that you can't take full advantage of the countermagic that you draw into off of Standstill. Burn helps close things out, but that's not its primary purpose and it's not wise to try to burn your opponent out under Standstill. Planeswalkers are the logical thing to try out here. Xenagos provides a pretty impressive clock on an empty board (4 turns), can pin down a Goyf indefinitely, and does all of this without tying up your mana. I'm not advocating cutting Factory or Conclave (or Jace), but I am saying that a green splash has lots to offer the deck and is worth testing.

I'm sorry, getting behind on board is really the Only issue. Anyone can do turn 1 land drop, eot Bolt, turn 2 Standstill, any Standard players can fire off Stifle/Snare/Wasteland the first chance he gets. Standstill only works when the board is relatively clear.

I admit Xenagos has some synergy with the Standstill strategy, but it doesn't really deal with Goyf and its ultimate is pretty useless. If a walker in a Standstill deck cannot deal with Batterskull/Jitte/TNN, at least find me something, give me some cards or buy me some time by giving me some life totals. Overall, Green is simply underwhelming. Assume you stick with UR based, you really should consider either Black or White.

If you're that into walker, here's an innovation, try Venser, the Sojourner. You attack with a factory then you get it right back untapped when you move to EoT on your own turn. I'll just reveal ahead of time, he's as underwhelming as Xenagos.

[btm10]

I'm sorry, getting behind on board is really the Only issue. Anyone can do turn 1 land drop, eot Bolt, turn 2 Standstill, any Standard players can fire off Stifle/Snare/Wasteland the first chance he gets. Standstill only works when the board is relatively clear.


Of course Standstill only works when the board is relatively clear. We can set up Standstill on an empty board quickly and easily, but that we can't press that advantage effectively without significant, continuous investment of mana in manlands. It effectively costs :1::u::u: to attack with Faerie Conclave and :2: to attack with Mishra's Factory and neither provides a substantial clock. Spending this mana on our own turn can keep us off of the Instant speed interaction that Standstill should enable us to dominate in, and protracted games reduce the impact of cards like Spell Pierce, Wasteland, and Stifle. We need a closer so we don't have to keep re-stabilizing the board and hoping Standstill gets us there, and non-Jace planeswalkers like Koth (who is mentioned a few pages back) and Xenagos are possible solutions; True-Name Nemesis is another (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29896_The-Portland-Postmortem.html).

[B88]

after many test i would share my last list. some things looks weird but i'll explain! :laugh:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Innocent Blood
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Counterspell
4 Polluted Delta
2 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce

SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Perish

the maindeck is quite different than before but there are some meta slots (2EE and 1reb).
anyway, the first thing is: Blood Moon...yes i run Moon! :tongue: it's because the deck has problemes against decks like: lands, MUD and Post....in all these MU Moon help us to break them, and we still have win condition like: Batterskull, Vendilion, Jace and Snap+bolt.
the second card that i would speek is Rakdos Charm....is insane! huge against grave recursion/combo and huge against artifact deck or equip.

[gabelmeister]

I really like this list.
Can you tell me how good the Batterskull is?
How do you win against merfolk?
Would be nice to hear

[sawatarix]

batterskull is just a tool against slowish midrange/controldecks decks.
We get to cast it in the real late game when all resources are gone.
Look at it as a very resilient threat they can't get rid of.
lifegain is also a huge thing to stabilaze.

the list above is the most recent one and claudio(BB8) and i have discussed every single card over and over again so far.
I can just tell that we both have excellent results in local tournament (4-6 round tournaments) in italy and japan.

This deck is made to destroy:

miracle (!)
delver decks in general
combodecks

it's kinda weak to:

12 post
burn
merfolk
mud

so moon makes perfect sense for us.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Is the red splash really better than the green splash?

I mean, I haven't played the deck much, but I'd assume that decay > bolt in a deck like this.

Plus, deed destroys midrange/merfolk

[B88]

the red over green is a meta choice. the only thing that Landstill has afraid are PW like Jace, deck like post and combo deck because we don't make much pressure.
so the red has:
1) Reb for combo and control mirrors
2) Bolt is cc1 and Decay cc2, that help us to make standstill on turn 2
3) Race, bolt snap+bolt makes 8 damage in 2 turns and with manlands are much more
4) Blood Moon, all hard MU are those decks with Lands like post, D.Depths or Mud

anyway Batterskull is there for BUG cascade, Jund and all those MU where we will go in the Late game

[gabelmeister]

Wouldn't Keranos be the better late game bomb?
Even if I agree with you that the deck needs a way to gain life in some matchups?
Did you test a 1-of Tasigur in thr deck as additional wincon?
He is quite good and we can abuse his ability

[JosephK]

it's kinda weak to:

12 post
burn
merfolk
mud

so moon makes perfect sense for us.

Moon vs 12 Post without a discard spell for Krosan grip (well you have clique instead), with snap and a turn 5 Threat (Batterskull) as sole pressure looks weak. Against the other MUs, Moon seems underwhelming (vs Mud ? Isn't it too much to deal with cavern ? Some Thoughtseize should be better in that consideration, even against merfolk).

[B88]

the problem is: they don't give to you life poits. in many tough MU you want gain life and Skull fit perfectly also with Moon in to play. :tongue:

[twndomn]

the red over green is a meta choice. the only thing that Landstill has afraid are PW like Jace, deck like post and combo deck because we don't make much pressure.
so the red has:


That's totally Incorrect. Do you have any ideas as to how much Jace decks like Miracles hate man-land? Landstill is designed to kill planeswalker. Tarpit alone is a huge problem, not to mention Landstill's man-lands.

The biggest problem with Landstill is still when it's behind on board, also known as your opponent goes turn 1 Aether Vial. You don't get to play sweeper like Terminus, the closest thing is Pernicious Deed.

Combo deck is totally fine as long as you have man-land under Standstill.

[theBloody]

Combo deck is totally fine as long as you have man-land under Standstill.

That is not always true. I have lost games where I had Mishra's + Standstill against ANT. You are putting them on 9 turn clock. When they break Standstill 8 turn later with Probe followed by Duress and Therapy, you are done even with online double fow and Spell Pierce (assuming they have about 5 lands in play). Dig will improve this situation though.

[B88]

That's totally Incorrect. Do you have any ideas as to how much Jace decks like Miracles hate man-land? Landstill is designed to kill planeswalker. Tarpit alone is a huge problem, not to mention Landstill's man-lands.

The biggest problem with Landstill is still when it's behind on board, also known as your opponent goes turn 1 Aether Vial. You don't get to play sweeper like Terminus, the closest thing is Pernicious Deed.

Combo deck is totally fine as long as you have man-land under Standstill.


if is like you say that BUG Landstill is good against Combo, against Controll and obv aggro why there is not result's or why is not a tier 1????
combo is not fine at all! you don't have any pressure, 8 turns of clock is not enogh like theBloody wrote!
what are doing creeping against 1W Sword??? only if you have standstill could be good but anyway you need to counter it! i think is better 1R counter/destroy a Jace or CB or ShowandTell!

[kiblast]

Used to play Bug landstill for like one year and a half, and I'm fairly sure that combo is not a good matchup unless you finely tune versus it.
Clique and deathrite shamans are your best bet as they increase your clock and speed up your deck.
UR landstill CAN race combo decks but you need Clique and Snapcaster+Bolts, not manlands. Manlands are slow and demand 2 mana each turn to deal 2 damage, and you cant afford to tap mana in your turn vs combo, so eot plays like clique and Snap Bolt are the way to go. Only thing you want to do in your turn at sorcery speed is Standstill.

[B88]

Used to play Bug landstill for like one year and a half, and I'm fairly sure that combo is not a good matchup unless you finely tune versus it.
Clique and deathrite shamans are your best bet as they increase your clock and speed up your deck.
UR landstill CAN race combo decks but you need Clique and Snapcaster+Bolts, not manlands. Manlands are slow and demand 2 mana each turn to deal 2 damage, and you cant afford to tap mana in your turn vs combo, so eot plays like clique and Snap Bolt are the way to go. Only thing you want to do in your turn at sorcery speed is Standstill.

i completely agree! :smile::smile::smile:

[gabelmeister]

I think we shouldn't discuss here if the BUG version is better or worse.
We should discuss which cards are good in the current meta vor ur(b) landstill.
@b88:
Did you test Tasigur?

[sawatarix]

@gabelmeister:
The list above is pretty close to the best thing grixis landstill can offer.
You got all the best removal spells for creatures for 1 mana, good counterspells including pyroblast (main+side) which is obviously one if the main reason to slash red over other colours.

Keranos is fine,if it sticks.
But generally we don't need it because we already have an excellent lategame

[pandaman]

I disagree about Krosan Grip from 12-Post against Blood Moon. Recent lists just aren't playing it, or if they are it's a one-of. You've got to be much more worried about all the Blue Elemental Blasts and Hydroblasts that seem to be packed into 12-Post boards lately (although this may abate due to UR Delver's recent decline).

I agree with the many who say manlands aren't good against combo. I also agree that the best way is EOT Bolt, SCM+Bolt, and Clique. I have even toyed with taking out manland against combo to ensure you have less chance of suffering from the old "3-land Standstill."

[CptHaddock]

Grixis seems to be pretty popular here. :tongue: Have any of you guys tinkered around with a white splash? I think that having something like swords would be nice to take care of trouble creatures without 2 for 1ing ourselves and also we get some nice sideboard cards.

[B88]

Grixis seems to be pretty popular here. :tongue: Have any of you guys tinkered around with a white splash? I think that having something like swords would be nice to take care of trouble creatures without 2 for 1ing ourselves and also we get some nice sideboard cards.

take a loock back! we explain why we decided don't run white.... :tongue:

[twndomn]

if is like you say that BUG Landstill is good against Combo, against Controll and obv aggro why there is not result's or why is not a tier 1????
combo is not fine at all! you don't have any pressure, 8 turns of clock is not enogh like theBloody wrote!
what are doing creeping against 1W Sword??? only if you have standstill could be good but anyway you need to counter it! i think is better 1R counter/destroy a Jace or CB or ShowandTell!

1. Your unfair assumption on the nature of combo
When we say combo, it's a very, very broad term in Legacy. Some combos are more fragile than the others. Manaless Dredge for example, once you screw with the bridges by surprise, it just dies to itself. I don't think it's fair to naturally assume combo means Show and Tell.

2. Man-land
I mention Tarpit as an example from Miracles' perspective. In general, Miracles players hate man-land. Man-land under the cover of Standstill is even worse.

3. Your flawed tier 1 argument
Your logic: if deck XYZ is that good, why there is not result or why is not a tier 1.
The flaw: Performance of any decks is closely related to the number of pilots. If the deck's really good for a particular meta, eventually smart players will make it trendy and more people will attempt and it'll rise to tier 1. Even if deck itself is good, won't matter if no one wants to try it.

This is like competitive Magic 101 in any constructed formats, I don't understand why I need to point it out to you.

[B88]

1. Your unfair assumption on the nature of combo
When we say combo, it's a very, very broad term in Legacy. Some combos are more fragile than the others. Manaless Dredge for example, once you screw with the bridges by surprise, it just dies to itself. I don't think it's fair to naturally assume combo means Show and Tell.

2. Man-land
I mention Tarpit as an example from Miracles' perspective. In general, Miracles players hate man-land. Man-land under the cover of Standstill is even worse.

3. Your flawed tier 1 argument
Your logic: if deck XYZ is that good, why there is not result or why is not a tier 1.
The flaw: Performance of any decks is closely related to the number of pilots. If the deck's really good for a particular meta, eventually smart players will make it trendy and more people will attempt and it'll rise to tier 1. Even if deck itself is good, won't matter if no one wants to try it.

This is like competitive Magic 101 in any constructed formats, I don't understand why I need to point it out to you.

1) you wrote: "Combo deck is totally fine as long as you have man-land under Standstill." that's explain how much you know the deck: and means nothing! it doesn't matter wich combo you are going to play against....mandlands are always shit against combo unless you have more than 2/3 opens mana!!!! and also in that case are not good enough!

2) first: you have to resolve your stand
second: you want close take off a PW with creatures against a deck makes for crush creatures deck? good luck!

3) if players don't play it there this will be a reason! maybe is because are not strong enough???? maybe...

[kiblast]

1. Your unfair assumption on the nature of combo
When we say combo, it's a very, very broad term in Legacy. Some combos are more fragile than the others. Manaless Dredge for example, once you screw with the bridges by surprise, it just dies to itself. I don't think it's fair to naturally assume combo means Show and Tell.



Who plays manaless dredge anyways? I think you should focus on the most played archetypes, such as Show and Tell variants, graveyard combo decks (regular Dredge and Reanimator) and Storm Combo.
Regarding the playability of URx/UBGx Landstill, it's not played at all as far as I know for different reasons, mainly because playing Standstill decks and understanding the timing of playing Standstill itself is not easy at all, secondly because with Dig Through time we had a new tool of card advantage which is more flexible and demands less conditions to be effective (because you can't just cast Standstill eot) and because the general consensus is that Miracles is miles better than any other Control deck currently buildable in legacy. The player's perception of Standstill right now is a clunky, old fashioned archetype that is not comparable with Miracle's smooth controlling action. That's why it's not played at all. The more you put out results, the easier is for the community to accept that Standstill is still a thing.

[Yan]

Last Sunday I decided to give my Dreadnoughts some rest and sleeved up UR Landstill. 40ish players showed up and I ended up in the top 8. Here is a quick report.

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Burst Lightning
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Dig Through Time
2 Counterspell
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm

Round 1. Mono U Martyr (that Greg Hatch special), 2-1. I loose one game to his swarm of creatures, the other two I just remove his guys and eat his life little by little.

Round 2. GB Pox, 1-1-1. I win first game by skrewing his mana and burning his face with bolts and Snapcasters. Second game he does the same to me, except the burning part is done with Cursed Scroll. Third game is a long grind which could go in any direction. He manages to keep me under 7 mana so I can't Snapcaster my Burst Lightning. I get him to one but time runs out. I check the top card after and it was another Snapcaster with bolts in the graveyard. Well...

Round 3. UW RiP Helm Land Tax Scroll Rack etc., 2-1 Pretty straight forward games, I loose one game to Isochron Scepter, but other than that, Landstill usually wins against other control pretty easily.

Round 4. Solidarity, 2-0. I have some background playing this deck, so I have a clear idea how to beat it. EOT Snapcaster followed by endless counterspells and burn to the face whenever there is mana to spare. Standstill with opponent on 4 open Islands might not be the best idea.

Round 5. Death & Taxes, 1-1-1. Long and grindy games but very enjoyable. I'm pretty sure I'll loose the third one, when he resolves Cataclysm with Batterskull in play, but I top deck EE, followed with a land. He drew Revoker but not the second land. Well, time runs out again but I think I would have lost.

Round 6. ANT, 1-1-1. Because there was so many draws in the tournament, it looked like things have to go really well if a draw was going to be enough for me, so I decided to play. For my opponent though, draw was a lock to top8. Unlike my opponents from rounds two and five, this guy played very slowly, thinking his plays sometimes for very long times. Should have probably called a judge, but it was my mr. nice guy day. He wins first, I win second. Probably would have lost the third if there was more time.

In the end 3-0-3 is enough for 7th place.

Quarterfinal. UWR Blade, 1-2. First game I remove his threads and cast 3 Standstills in a row, this seems like a quite easy way to win. Not sure if it was second or third game, but one game I'm facing lethal but he's at 1. I draw Dig Through Time. Dig finds Snapcaster and Brainstorm. I snap-bolt with two mana open and he has 2 cards. He Cliques in response and targets me so I figure out he has something. I come to the conclusion that he might have Spell Pierce, so I do nothing. He takes away Brainstorm and Swords his own SoFI equipped Geist. I check after and the Brainstorm would have found another bolt. Damn you AJ Sacher, I'll never listen to you again! ;) The other game I pretty much loose to Pithing Needle on Factory.

After that, I would probably add 2 Faerie Conclaves to the list, taking out a fetch and an Island. Other than that, the deck was great. Very fun to play and a bit surprisingly (at least to me) very competitive too. I'll probably play this again at some point, have to just remember to also take care that the opponents play fast too.

I'm not sure if anyone else is still playing this because of the URB variant, but I don't see the need for black. And btw, Burst Lightning was absolutely insane! Kills all the creatures you care about at instant speed on your first turn so you can follow up with Standstill and doubles as a finisher late game. And admit it, nothing beats the feeling of Snapcasting Burst Lightning for lethals :) (managed to do this once!) Oh, and on Saturday I gave my deck to a friend who also top 8ed, so I guess there is some true power in this one.

[btm10]

Last Sunday I decided to give my Dreadnoughts some rest and sleeved up UR Landstill. 40ish players showed up and I ended up in the top 8. Here is a quick report.

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Burst Lightning
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Dig Through Time
2 Counterspell
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm

Round 1. Mono U Martyr (that Greg Hatch special), 2-1. I loose one game to his swarm of creatures, the other two I just remove his guys and eat his life little by little.

Round 2. GB Pox, 1-1-1. I win first game by skrewing his mana and burning his face with bolts and Snapcasters. Second game he does the same to me, except the burning part is done with Cursed Scroll. Third game is a long grind which could go in any direction. He manages to keep me under 7 mana so I can't Snapcaster my Burst Lightning. I get him to one but time runs out. I check the top card after and it was another Snapcaster with bolts in the graveyard. Well...

Round 3. UW RiP Helm Land Tax Scroll Rack etc., 2-1 Pretty straight forward games, I loose one game to Isochron Scepter, but other than that, Landstill usually wins against other control pretty easily.

Round 4. Solidarity, 2-0. I have some background playing this deck, so I have a clear idea how to beat it. EOT Snapcaster followed by endless counterspells and burn to the face whenever there is mana to spare. Standstill with opponent on 4 open Islands might not be the best idea.

Round 5. Death & Taxes, 1-1-1. Long and grindy games but very enjoyable. I'm pretty sure I'll loose the third one, when he resolves Cataclysm with Batterskull in play, but I top deck EE, followed with a land. He drew Revoker but not the second land. Well, time runs out again but I think I would have lost.

Round 6. ANT, 1-1-1. Because there was so many draws in the tournament, it looked like things have to go really well if a draw was going to be enough for me, so I decided to play. For my opponent though, draw was a lock to top8. Unlike my opponents from rounds two and five, this guy played very slowly, thinking his plays sometimes for very long times. Should have probably called a judge, but it was my mr. nice guy day. He wins first, I win second. Probably would have lost the third if there was more time.

In the end 3-0-3 is enough for 7th place.

Quarterfinal. UWR Blade, 1-2. First game I remove his threads and cast 3 Standstills in a row, this seems like a quite easy way to win. Not sure if it was second or third game, but one game I'm facing lethal but he's at 1. I draw Dig Through Time. Dig finds Snapcaster and Brainstorm. I snap-bolt with two mana open and he has 2 cards. He Cliques in response and targets me so I figure out he has something. I come to the conclusion that he might have Spell Pierce, so I do nothing. He takes away Brainstorm and Swords his own SoFI equipped Geist. I check after and the Brainstorm would have found another bolt. Damn you AJ Sacher, I'll never listen to you again! ;) The other game I pretty much loose to Pithing Needle on Factory.

After that, I would probably add 2 Faerie Conclaves to the list, taking out a fetch and an Island. Other than that, the deck was great. Very fun to play and a bit surprisingly (at least to me) very competitive too. I'll probably play this again at some point, have to just remember to also take care that the opponents play fast too.

I'm not sure if anyone else is still playing this because of the URB variant, but I don't see the need for black. And btw, Burst Lightning was absolutely insane! Kills all the creatures you care about at instant speed on your first turn so you can follow up with Standstill and doubles as a finisher late game. And admit it, nothing beats the feeling of Snapcasting Burst Lightning for lethals :) (managed to do this once!) Oh, and on Saturday I gave my deck to a friend who also top 8ed, so I guess there is some true power in this one.


Congrats on your results. I definitely think you want at least 6 manlands in any Landstill variant, and if you're in straight UR you're probably better off going all the way up to 3 Conclaves, at least in my experience. The ground can get locked up pretty easily with UR and Conclave breaks the stalemate nicely.

[btm10]

Also, Roast really solves this deck's biggest problem, which is guys that don't die to Bolt. I got a little preliminary testing done online last night and beat RUG and BUG Delver 2-0 and 2-0 (I also beat D&T, but that was already a pretty good matchup).

[FoolofaTook]

Also, Roast really solves this deck's biggest problem, which is guys that don't die to Bolt. I got a little preliminary testing done online last night and beat RUG and BUG Delver 2-0 and 2-0 (I also beat D&T, but that was already a pretty good matchup).

Goyf is still a huge problem for the list. It will be 5/6 in the mid-game due to us playing both Enchantments and Artifacts and unless we can Spell Snare or Force it or have an Engineered Explosives in hand it is a major roadblock and a fast clock. Mishra's Factory + a bolt is another way to manage it but that's a 2-for-1 and we can't do that and come out ahead.

@Yan

Burst Lightning may look like a great option but Lam Phan was right with the 3 Sudden Shocks. SS handles many of the creatures that will otherwise turn things into a blowout against us. Mother of Runes, Inkmoth Nexus and any other infect critter, Wirewood Symbiote, Spellskite, opposing Mishra's, the first Merfolk lord, etc. There are too many 2 toughness creatures that are a blowout once they become active against a reactive list like this one. That it also handles Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Goblin Guide, Monastery Swiftspear, Dark Confidant and company makes it too good not to play.

Against Infect it removes the jockeying on the stack with pump spells vs counters and burn and especially Vines of Vastwood. This lets you save your counters for the critters and causes issues for the Infect player in the process.

Against D&T it removes Mother of Runes at EoT to set up a sweeper the following turn when the combination of Mom + a Flickerwisp off of a vial often leaves us unhappy with the sweep and still in deep trouble. It allows us to remove the creature that has to go, without worrying about Flickerwisp or Karakas saving it. It doesn't manage Brimaz, Serra Avenger and Eidolon of Rhetoric or the Prot Red creatures you see occasionally from the board but it kills the other stuff without letting shenanigans get in the way.

Against Elves it's a tool to stop recursion and the commencement of the fast mana cycle in some cases. The matchup is still not wonderful bit it's nice to be able to remove the thing you have to remove without worrying about Wirewood Symbiote.

The mana difference is real but Ur Landstill is always going to have the mana to cast it on turn 2 and will never have to play around Daze, Spell Pierce, etc in the process.

[Yan]

I agree that Phan got it right with Sudden Shock, but that was entirely different metagame with Treasure Cruise. Deathrite Shaman was almost non-existing back then. However, that is not the case anymore, and if you dream on making Standstill good early on, you need your answers to cost exactly 1 mana. You also listed a fair amount of creatures that also die to burst the same as they would to SS. Even your active Mother of Runes makes no sense, as it is exactly same if you have burst and sweep (Burst eot, let him protect. Sweep next turn anyway. You'll get the picture I believe). Against infect, Wastelands are for the Inkmoths and all the bolts for other creatures. The trick is to not wait out, but kill the creatures as soon as you can. If they have to waste their pump spells on your turn, you have already bought enough time to win (or draw more bolts/sweeps). Against pretty much everything right now, the one less mana makes a very big difference when you are trying to set up Standstill. I don't disagree with Sudden Shock being great, I just don't think there is room or need for it right now.

[btm10]

Goyf is still a huge problem for the list. It will be 5/6 in the mid-game due to us playing both Enchantments and Artifacts and unless we can Spell Snare or Force it or have an Engineered Explosives in hand it is a major roadblock and a fast clock. Mishra's Factory + a bolt is another way to manage it but that's a 2-for-1 and we can't do that and come out ahead.

Further testing suggests that this isn't a problem. Not only are we playing Dig Through Time to manage the content of our graveyard, but the only nonstandard card type that we're likely to put into the graveyard is Enchantment, and if Standstill is going to the graveyard our opponents' odds of resolving a Goyf (or us not having CA to spare) are pretty low.


I agree that Phan got it right with Sudden Shock, but that was entirely different metagame with Treasure Cruise. Deathrite Shaman was almost non-existing back then. However, that is not the case anymore, and if you dream on making Standstill good early on, you need your answers to cost exactly 1 mana. You also listed a fair amount of creatures that also die to burst the same as they would to SS. Even your active Mother of Runes makes no sense, as it is exactly same if you have burst and sweep (Burst eot, let him protect. Sweep next turn anyway. You'll get the picture I believe). Against infect, Wastelands are for the Inkmoths and all the bolts for other creatures. The trick is to not wait out, but kill the creatures as soon as you can. If they have to waste their pump spells on your turn, you have already bought enough time to win (or draw more bolts/sweeps). Against pretty much everything right now, the one less mana makes a very big difference when you are trying to set up Standstill. I don't disagree with Sudden Shock being great, I just don't think there is room or need for it right now.

As much as it pains me to agree with Fool on anything, I don't think the Burst is as good as Sudden Shock. The ability to uncounterably kill Delver, or burn someone out through an active Counterbalance, or stop someone from activating Deathrite Shaman or Stoneforge Mystic, or even just bypassing Mom entirely against D&T are all important applications that Burst can't match. If Burst dealt 5 or 6 when kicked, or even had a more accessible kicker cost, I'd be more interested in testing it. As it is, virtually uncounterable two mana removal isn't bad at all (cf. Abrupt Decay), and the situations where Decay doesn't work actually come up more than do situations where Sudden Shock can be countered.

[Yan]

As much as it pains me to agree with Fool on anything, I don't think the Burst is as good as Sudden Shock. The ability to uncounterably kill Delver, or burn someone out through an active Counterbalance, or stop someone from activating Deathrite Shaman or Stoneforge Mystic, or even just bypassing Mom entirely against D&T are all important applications that Burst can't match. If Burst dealt 5 or 6 when kicked, or even had a more accessible kicker cost, I'd be more interested in testing it. As it is, virtually uncounterable two mana removal isn't bad at all (cf. Abrupt Decay), and the situations where Decay doesn't work actually come up more than do situations where Sudden Shock can be countered.

I'll gladly disagree with both of you then :P

Sudden Shock is great, but right now a 2 mana removal is not what I need, it is the mana difference that matters. It doesn't help if I can remove their Delver uncounterably, if they also have Goyf or something else next to it. I want to be resolving Standstill on an empty board and Burst helps in that more right now. If they want to waste their Daze of FoW on it...well, at least I'm totally fine with that.

EDIT. Also making statements after saying you haven't even tested it, sounds kind of weak. Trust me, I played with both, both are good. But right now I want Burst over SS.

[btm10]

EDIT. Also making statements after saying you haven't even tested it, sounds kind of weak. Trust me, I played with both, both are good. But right now I want Burst over SS.

We can agree to disagree, but I need a reason to test a card. If I frequently found myself saying "gee, I really wish this Sudden Shock cost less", I'd be happy to test Burst Lightning or even Shock. But I don't find myself saying that ever. I'm also fine taking a hit or two from a Delver to chew up more of my opponent's resources before dropping Standstill.

[FoolofaTook]

You almost have to take the early Delver hits unless you have a hand with a lot of removal in it. Sudden Shock really helps for a turn 2 removal because losing a counter war over removing an early Delver bodes very poorly for the mid game. SS removes that prospect entirely and lets us do what we want to do most of the time, which is sit back and parry until an inflection point presents itself. Even then you usually want to take the damage on turn 2 and then remove the Delver at end of turn. Never give the opponent a tapped out board state and the ability to cast a permanent that will kill us, like Sylvan Library.

[lambert101]

I played a list with Treasure Cruse over standstill during GP NJ and it felt really powerful. Back then Young Pyromancer was more popular than Tarmogoyf. With the new meta I was wondering how this list and potential boarding plans seem to UR Landstill players:


4 Lighting Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Snapcaster Mage

1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

Board:
3 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus

vs RUG/BUG Delver/Shardless BUG
- 4 Force
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Red Elemental Blast

vs. Miracles
- 4 Lighting Bolt
- 1 Crucible of Worlds
- 2 Wasteland
- 1 Ponder
+ 3 Krosan Grip
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Pithing Needle

vs. Death and Taxes
- 3 Spell Pierce
- 2 Counterspell
- 2 Spell Snare
- 1 Force of Will
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Pyroclasm

vs. elves
- 3 Spell Pierce
- 2 Counterspell
- 2 Jace the Mindsculptor
+ 2 Graffdigger's Cage
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 3 Pyroclsm

vs. Sneak and Show
- 4 Lighting Bolt
- 2 Engineered Explosives
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Krosan Grip

vs. Blade Control
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Ponder
- 2 Dig Through Time
+ 3 Krosan Grip
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Pithing Needle

vs. Storm
- 3 Lighting Bolt

vs. Reanimator
- 4 Lighting Bolt
- 2 Engineered Explosives
+2 Graffdigger's Cage
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Red Elemental Blast

[twndomn]

I played a list with Treasure Cruse over standstill during GP NJ and it felt really powerful. Back then Young Pyromancer was more popular than Tarmogoyf. With the new meta I was wondering how this list and potential boarding plans seem to UR Landstill players:



You posted a UR deck with Crucible and Factory when the thread itself by definition has man-land and standstill.

Looking at the list, you want to utilize graveyard by having Crucible, 4 Snapcaster, and 4 Dig all competing and consuming graveyard resources, sounds pretty anti-synergic.

[lambert101]

Ooops! I meant to add that I am trying to fit standstill into this mix. I merely was trying to give an example of the list I played from GP NJ.

My thoughts were something like
- 4 Ponder
- 2 Dig Through Time
+4 Standstill
+2 Dismember

[Chaam]

Ooops! I meant to add that I am trying to fit standstill into this mix. I merely was trying to give an example of the list I played from GP NJ.

My thoughts were something like
- 4 Ponder
- 2 Dig Through Time
+4 Standstill
+2 Dismember

If I were to build UR Landstill it would look something like this:

Creature (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage

Instants (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments (4)
4 Standstill

Artifacts (2)
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands (24)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

[FoolofaTook]

Somebody should put Lam Phan's list in the thread given that it top 8'd a 4k+ tournament and was clearly Ur Landstill. He really did hit it almost perfectly for the meta at the time and he only used 1 Treasure Cruise and 1 Dig Through Time. He lost in the end to an infect list hitting him for regular damage because he flooded out on lands.

[pandaman]

Somebody should put Lam Phan's list in the thread given that it top 8'd a 4k+ tournament and was clearly Ur Landstill. He really did hit it almost perfectly for the meta at the time and he only used 1 Treasure Cruise and 1 Dig Through Time. He lost in the end to an infect list hitting him for regular damage because he flooded out on lands.
Done.

[pandaman]

And I intend to write a proper primer for this on the weekend.

[btm10]

If I were to build UR Landstill it would look something like this:

{list}




Needs more Stifle. Needs more Faerie Conclave. Needs more burn.


And I intend to write a proper primer for this on the weekend.

Looking forward to seeing your thoughts. And agreed on posting Lam's list.


Ooops! I meant to add that I am trying to fit standstill into this mix. I merely was trying to give an example of the list I played from GP NJ.

My thoughts were something like
- 4 Ponder
- 2 Dig Through Time
+4 Standstill
+2 Dismember

I don't think you want Dismember over Roast. The 4 life isn't free, especially when you've got to kill an X/4 or X/5. Also, I do think 3 Standstill is right. You could try a TNN (per Glen Jones' suggestion) or Clique (which I like because it's got Flash)

[FoolofaTook]

And I intend to write a proper primer for this on the weekend.

I'm looking forward to reading your primer. Ur Landstill is one of the most fundamentally sound lists in the meta at this point and it should see a lot more play than it does.

[sawatarix]

I think we should clarify how to play this deck first before discussing specific slots.
The biggest problem for most of us is to understand how to use stifle and wasteland in this deck which lacks cheap creatures like delver of secrets to exploit the tempo advantage.

another thing is our topdeck. If you have a closer look on Lam Phan's games on camera (3 times during GP NJ) you see that he is in a position where he topdecks reactive cards from his library without using library manipulation. That's a major thing i want to avoid when playing control. Instead, i want to know what i'm gonna draw the next turns to make sure to have the correct answer for my opponent all the time.
Otherwise we will sit there topdecking stifles when we need removal for creatures for instance.

So i personally would add 3-4 ponder/preordains immediately.
You get my point?

[FoolofaTook]

I think we should clarify how to play this deck first before discussing specific slots.
The biggest problem for most of us is to understand how to use stifle and wasteland in this deck which lacks cheap creatures like delver of secrets to exploit the tempo advantage.

another thing is our topdeck. If you have a closer look on Lam Phan's games on camera (3 times during GP NJ) you see that he is in a position where he topdecks reactive cards from his library without using library manipulation. That's a major thing i want to avoid when playing control. Instead, i want to know what i'm gonna draw the next turns to make sure to have the correct answer for my opponent all the time.
Otherwise we will sit there topdecking stifles when we need removal for creatures for instance.

So i personally would add 3-4 ponder/preordains immediately.
You get my point?

There's at least one flex slot in his build at this point due to the removal of Treasure Cruise. That's a potential Ponder slot unless Crucible of Worlds is better in your meta, which it is in some metas, or you want to go with the 25th land which Phan chose not to do. The thing about Ponder that doesn't work well in the list is that it always wants to have at least 2 mana open during the opponent's turn and it also wants to use 2 lands to attack with Mishra's when the opening presents. That makes a sorcery speed manipulation spell less than optimal in the list.

The only sorcery in Phan's main list at GPNJ was the singleton Treasure Cruise, which he probably saw as just too good not to play as an option.

[sawatarix]

There's at least one flex slot in his build at this point due to the removal of Treasure Cruise. That's a potential Ponder slot unless Crucible of Worlds is better in your meta, which it is in some metas, or you want to go with the 25th land which Phan chose not to do. The thing about Ponder that doesn't work well in the list is that it always wants to have at least 2 mana open during the opponent's turn and it also wants to use 2 lands to attack with Mishra's when the opening presents. That makes a sorcery speed manipulation spell less than optimal in the list.

The only sorcery in Phan's main list at GPNJ was the singleton Treasure Cruise, which he probably saw as just too good not to play as an option.

Sure, i just think that we need a good primer which makes clear how to pilot this deck best. I guess a lot of people don't know how to do that, starting with mulligan decisions over the use of stifle and wasteland in this deck and the perfect timing to start the mishra beats.

[pandaman]

Well, I don't want to just write the primer and say: "Here's the primer, guys, deal with it!" I want to write an initial primer and then there to be heaps of discussion about it so that it's as tight as it can be. So I'm looking forward to everyone's collaboration on this one. It might take a while, but it's going to be great when finished.

[btm10]

Well, I don't want to just write the primer and say: "Here's the primer, guys, deal with it!" I want to write an initial primer and then there to be heaps of discussion about it so that it's as tight as it can be. So I'm looking forward to everyone's collaboration on this one. It might take a while, but it's going to be great when finished.

Thanks for taking the lead on this, though. I agree that we need to have input from multiple people,


Sure, i just think that we need a good primer which makes clear how to pilot this deck best. I guess a lot of people don't know how to do that, starting with mulligan decisions over the use of stifle and wasteland in this deck and the perfect timing to start the mishra beats.

I'm not sure if we need to write the primer down to a play-by-play level like that. The bigger thing (which does play into how to use Stifle effectively, when to switch to Factory beats, etc.) is role identification and that's the most complex thing to do with the deck because it isn't a traditional control deck. It's also the area where I see the most mistakes made.

Anyway, here's a list I've had a lot of success with in testing:

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce


3 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis or Vendilion Clique

3 Standstill
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sudden Shock
2 Roast


Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast

[Philipp2293]

Just wondering what's the point in running Wooded Foothills?

[btm10]

Just wondering what's the point in running Wooded Foothills?

It's a holdover from when I was running a basic Mountain. It should probably be another blue fetch if there's no Mountain.

[sawatarix]

wow, not even 1 copy of dig through time?!
This must have been a typing mistake :D

[FoolofaTook]

wow, not even 1 copy of dig through time?!
This must have been a typing mistake :D

I can see leaving Dig Through Time out of the build. Ur isn't a silver bullet build. There are lots of things you're not going to be able to answer well with a desperate Dig. It's probably better to have 1 or 2 in the build but I could see somebody deciding to go for thicker value in the counters and burn or with another win-con like TNN or clique in the spot.