Land Destruction/Discard Deck (BU)

[HrishiQQ]

Hi there. I am fairly new to legacy. I really enjoy playing decks with some kind of control element in them. I am also not one to copy a deck off a website, and generally prefer trying to develop a less than tier-1 deck for my own use!

For this reason, I've come up with this control style deck that aims to control your opponent through a barrage of land destruction and discards. While this is a first draft, I really like the core-set of cards in this deck and would like to develop this deck to improve it as much as possible. And I would like your suggestions if you would! I wasn't sure how else to start thinking about a deck so I based it around a single card and went from there. That card was Sinkhole.


Lands : 24
4 Drowned Catacomb
16 Swamp
4 Watery Grave

Instants : 7
3 Dark Ritual
2 Go for the Throat
2 Hoodwink

Creatures : 7
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Hypnotic Specter

Sorceries : 16
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Icequake
2 Rain of Tears

Enchantments : 4
4 Blight

Artifacts : 2
2 Trinisphere


Concerns, questions and things I am considering

1. I have splashed blue for the purpose of running Snapcasters (which will allow me to flash LD spells from the graveyard), is there a better way to do this? Hoodwink also seems to be a very splashable spell that could be used to return opponent's land or return a Snapcaster for another flash cast. Never run this before, so wondering how effective it would be!

2. I had originally thought about splashing red, but I have so much LD already I didn't feel like it was necessary. Is there a better color to splash (currently it's blue but I'm not sure if there is a better idea)? I did consider White for Vindicate but that seems more like a sideboard option than a main deck option. I usually do not like running a single color so I'd prefer splashing something unless there is a really good reason not to!

3. I am a little worried about a possible anti-synergy between the Deathrite Shaman and Snapcaster regarding sorceries. Ideally I'd only exile opponent sorcery cards but will their availability be an issue if my opponent is denied mana?

4. I do like the synergy between LD spells and Deathrite shaman for mana ramp. Am I right in thinking this would be effective?

5. Trinisphere seemed like it had good synergy with LD control so I included it, but I'm not sure if it actually works well in this sort of deck or not, does it? I'm leaning toward no, but I kept it in just in case, I can't think of what else would be better placed there, maybe a draw engine like Phyrexian Arena?

6. I have tried to respect my deck's mana curve to the best of my ability, but since I am still fairly new to legacy (and MTG in general, as a matter of fact), I would appreciate it if somebody else could take a look at my mana curve and tell me if it looks good enough?

7. I realize that I haven't included wastelands in this deck. I would like to, but I am not sure what to give up. Also does running wastelands mean I have to run Crucible of worlds? I'm not sure how to make space for both of them, and they fundamentally change how the deck is played (more like a loam/LD deck than what I was aiming for). Of course, wastelands are also expensive, which is a reason I looked for an alternative, but I was concerned with running into non-dual decks and my wastelands simply taking up space.

8. What do people think about Panoptic Mirror imprinting a LD spell? If I could find a way to cheat it inside (maybe through Goblin Welder or Tinker or something else, suggestions?) do you think it could be useful?

9. I don't have any fatties in my deck to end the game quickly, do you think they are necessary? If so, what would you say I should give up? If not, do I have enough win conditions currently?

10. Running 1 copy of The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale seemed like a good idea too, but since I am also running a fair number of creatures, I thought it wouldn't be quite as effective. Am I right in thinking so?

11. Are fetchlands necessary in this sort of deck? If so, how many and which ones would you say I could run? Do I drop basic lands to make space for fetchlands?

If you were able to answer these questions and could provide any suggestions of your own, I'd be most grateful. Deckbuilding is my favorite aspect of this game and I obsessively fine-tune my decks for days, but I honestly am not knowledgeable enough about the legacy meta to make an informed decision sometimes. While I would be playing this casually as well, I'd like for this to be tournament legal so I can play it in local tournaments here, thanks!

[StefN]

Hi there. I am fairly new to legacy. I really enjoy playing decks with some kind of control element in them. I am also not one to copy a deck off a website, and generally prefer trying to develop a less than tier-1 deck for my own use!

For this reason, I've come up with this control style deck that aims to control your opponent through a barrage of land destruction and discards. While this is a first draft, I really like the core-set of cards in this deck and would like to develop this deck to improve it as much as possible. And I would like your suggestions if you would! I wasn't sure how else to start thinking about a deck so I based it around a single card and went from there. That card was Sinkhole.


Lands : 24
4 Drowned Catacomb
16 Swamp
4 Watery Grave

Instants : 7
3 Dark Ritual
2 Go for the Throat
2 Hoodwink

Creatures : 7
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Hypnotic Specter

Sorceries : 16
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Icequake
2 Rain of Tears

Enchantments : 4
4 Blight

Artifacts : 2
2 Trinisphere


Concerns, questions and things I am considering

1. I have splashed blue for the purpose of running Snapcasters (which will allow me to flash LD spells from the graveyard), is there a better way to do this? Hoodwink also seems to be a very splashable spell that could be used to return opponent's land or return a Snapcaster for another flash cast. Never run this before, so wondering how effective it would be!

2. I had originally thought about splashing red, but I have so much LD already I didn't feel like it was necessary. Is there a better color to splash (currently it's blue but I'm not sure if there is a better idea)? I did consider White for Vindicate but that seems more like a sideboard option than a main deck option. I usually do not like running a single color so I'd prefer splashing something unless there is a really good reason not to!

3. I am a little worried about a possible anti-synergy between the Deathrite Shaman and Snapcaster regarding sorceries. Ideally I'd only exile opponent sorcery cards but will their availability be an issue if my opponent is denied mana?

4. I do like the synergy between LD spells and Deathrite shaman for mana ramp. Am I right in thinking this would be effective?

5. Trinisphere seemed like it had good synergy with LD control so I included it, but I'm not sure if it actually works well in this sort of deck or not, does it? I'm leaning toward no, but I kept it in just in case, I can't think of what else would be better placed there, maybe a draw engine like Phyrexian Arena?

6. I have tried to respect my deck's mana curve to the best of my ability, but since I am still fairly new to legacy (and MTG in general, as a matter of fact), I would appreciate it if somebody else could take a look at my mana curve and tell me if it looks good enough?

7. I realize that I haven't included wastelands in this deck. I would like to, but I am not sure what to give up. Also does running wastelands mean I have to run Crucible of worlds? I'm not sure how to make space for both of them, and they fundamentally change how the deck is played (more like a loam/LD deck than what I was aiming for). Of course, wastelands are also expensive, which is a reason I looked for an alternative, but I was concerned with running into non-dual decks and my wastelands simply taking up space.

8. What do people think about Panoptic Mirror imprinting a LD spell? If I could find a way to cheat it inside (maybe through Goblin Welder or Tinker or something else, suggestions?) do you think it could be useful?

9. I don't have any fatties in my deck to end the game quickly, do you think they are necessary? If so, what would you say I should give up? If not, do I have enough win conditions currently?

10. Running 1 copy of The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale seemed like a good idea too, but since I am also running a fair number of creatures, I thought it wouldn't be quite as effective. Am I right in thinking so?

11. Are fetchlands necessary in this sort of deck? If so, how many and which ones would you say I could run? Do I drop basic lands to make space for fetchlands?

If you were able to answer these questions and could provide any suggestions of your own, I'd be most grateful. Deckbuilding is my favorite aspect of this game and I obsessively fine-tune my decks for days, but I honestly am not knowledgeable enough about the legacy meta to make an informed decision sometimes. While I would be playing this casually as well, I'd like for this to be tournament legal so I can play it in local tournaments here, thanks!

Have you even played at least One round to Test this deck? Don't take it Personal but this seems like a Troll Post for me. This deck Looks so unfocused. Too much LD (and no Wastelands), 2 removal, H.Specter, Duress over Thoughtseize, Hoodwink?

[Lemnear]

Land destruction is pointless in Legacy with a large number of decks working on 1-3 mana. In addition you don't really profit from the time you gained by setting opponents back on lands. This deck dies to near any creature resolved.

Please check the "Deck-to-beat" & "Established" section of the Forum to see your contenders. Most questions will vanish then ;)

[raudo]

For a start:

4x wasteland
4x underground sea (if blue is really needed here)
4-8x fetchland

4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize

4x liliana of the veil

Maybe some mass removal not to lose automatically to creatures

4x damnation?

[thefreakaccident]

The dream is to get them to no lands and have the tabernacle at pendrell vale on board. Ghostly prison isn't even good enough with deathrite and grim lavamancers in pretty much anything that matters.

[HrishiQQ]

Have you even played at least One round to Test this deck? Don't take it Personal but this seems like a Troll Post for me. This deck Looks so unfocused. Too much LD (and no Wastelands), 2 removal, H.Specter, Duress over Thoughtseize, Hoodwink?

I don't see how this is a troll post. I have played some rounds to test it and it didn't work as well as I'd hoped, therefore I posted to get feedback. If the deck looks unfocused, please tell me why it is so? If you had bothered to read, I had explained why I haven't included wastelands in my initial draft (expense is the main factor but I was also concerned that I was running too much LD). Hypnotic Specter is there to force discards, I had assumed that I wouldn't need much removal because I'd be denying mana. I'm new to MTG and legacy and wish to get into deckbuilding. If the deck is bad, I apologize, but I have to learn.


Land destruction is pointless in Legacy with a large number of decks working on 1-3 mana. In addition you don't really profit from the time you gained by setting opponents back on lands. This deck dies to near any creature resolved.

Please check the "Deck-to-beat" & "Established" section of the Forum to see your contenders. Most questions will vanish then ;)

As I explained, I do not enjoy copying decks off a website and prefer making decks of my own, even if they are sub-par. Call it what you will, but that is how I enjoy the game. If the deck is sub-par, it will be sub-par. That being said, I have read through the list of decks-to-beat for ideas on how to improve this (especially the Pox Primer as it seems to have a similar style).


For a start:

4x wasteland
4x underground sea (if blue is really needed here)
4-8x fetchland

4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize

4x liliana of the veil

Maybe some mass removal not to lose automatically to creatures

4x damnation?

The reason I was running blue in the first place was for the inclusion of Snapcaster to flash cast LD spells from the grave. In addition I was considering Stifle for opponent fetchlands. Those are some solid suggestions.


The dream is to get them to no lands and have the tabernacle at pendrell vale on board. Ghostly prison isn't even good enough with deathrite and grim lavamancers in pretty much anything that matters.

Great idea! Would running 1 copy of Tabernacle be enough?

[thefreakaccident]

1 isn't enough actually, you need a minimum of two, as well as crop rotations/knight of the reliquary to fetch them out.

[apple713]

This must be a troll post... You are choosing not to run underground seas but have extra tabernacles lying around?

This deck would be better suited with a more sophisticated mana base. Wastelands and Urborgs, especially if your going to use tabernacle.

Also, red is probably better than blue to be honest because red gives you access to one of the best creatures for this deck type. Grim lavamancer. He can pretty much clear what few threats they do land off of 1-2 mana. In addition he actually blanks entire decks. He can kill EVERYTHING in BUG, RUG, Esperblade, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, elves, goblins...so on and so forth. Kills most things in maverick. He does however suck against tarmogoyf....cant win them all right...


Also, if you did stick with blue, stifle would be a requirement imo. its like a sinkhole but better cause it cost 1 mana and has other applications. It is often better because it doesn't even allow them to tap for mana cause they cant fetch.

Furthermore, Deathrite shaman is great if you are running fethlands / wastelands. If you are not, how do you plan to activate him on t2 to ramp?

If you decide to go the red route with lavamance, you can consider goblin sharpshooter as a counterpart cause he's just about as good as lavamancer and in someways sooooo much better. Also you have access to young pyromancer. Fulminator mage too.

Liliana might be good cause you dont expect them to land many threats and she can keep them off few threats and is renewable.

If you play red you also get blood moon and magus :) they are currently wrecking the format.

Small pox is actually one of the best land destruction spells... way above sinkhole and tons cheaper too. it helps you gain the tempo advantage you lose on the draw

[HrishiQQ]

I actually have neither. However I do know of a friend who does not use his copy of Tabernacle in his deck (he only has 1) so I might try convincing him to lend it to me. Once again, I am not trying to troll. Why does everyone seem to instantly assume that I am, I don't get it :(, I'm simply new to the format and the game in general and I'm trying to get advice from people who are better qualified than I am to improve my own deck.

Other than that, thanks for some very solid advice.

What do you mean by a sophisticated mana base? Would simply adding a couple Urbogs and wastelands be enough to do that?

[nedleeds]

Because there's a section for budget decks. If you post a U/B deck and suggest Watery Grave (and no Death's Shadow) and Drowned Catacomb then no matter what else the content I wouldn't expect anyone in a SOURCE FOR LEGACY forum to read any further.

[HrishiQQ]

Because there's a section for budget decks. If you post a U/B deck and suggest Watery Grave (and no Death's Shadow) and Drowned Catacomb then no matter what else the content I wouldn't expect anyone in a SOURCE FOR LEGACY forum to read any further.



New and Developmental Decks
For "unfinished" decks: For new or relatively untested decks and ideas which require further development or optimization. Also for casual and budget decks. Once a developmental deck has been fully optimized, it can be moved to the Established Decks Forum by a moderator. A writeup including card choices and basic strategy is required.


If I posted in the wrong place, I would like to like to request that it be moved? However, reading the descriptions of the sub-forums, I think I posted in the right section. There is no need to be rude.

[Nihil Credo]

If I posted in the wrong place, I would like to like to request that it be moved? However, reading the descriptions of the sub-forums, I think I posted in the right section. There is no need to be rude.

It's funny, we added the casual/budget forum literally years ago but nobody ever noticed that N&D still said "casual and budget" in the blurb. Thanks for bringing it up, I've moved the thread and fixed the description.



On a separate note - blunt talk is a trademark of these forums, and as long as nobody resorts to direct personal insults it's perfectly OK to rip bad decks apart.

[SirTylerGalt]

If I were to play U/B land destruction, I would go with:

Stifle
Shadow of Doubt (counters a fetchland activation, while drawing you a card... also works against GSZ, Intuition, SFM...)
Wasteland
Sinkhole
Snapcaster Mage to replay all of those

That said, Legacy is a format where land destruction is not very good, since mana curves are very low...

[FTW]

First of all, the correct number of Dark Rituals is either 0 or 4. You either don't want the card disadvantage, or you always always want it on turn 1. Go to 4 Dark Rits.

Then you need a way to stop creatures that opponent might sneak through.
+4 Propaganda
+2 Fade Away

Then you probably want to run better versions of your land destruction spells...
Rancid Earth is better than Icequake or Rain of Tears
Fulminator Mage is usually pretty good too since it can attack and then later destroy a land at instant speed, but if your budget meta doesn't use non-basics then Icequake might be better.

Finally, if you run a few Rishadan Port then you can both manascrew the opponent and make your Blights live (when you tap the land with Port, it will die).

[thefreakaccident]

Rhystic study.