Legacy's Future

[KevinSrednoselac]

Legacy is by far my favorite format. Wizards does not support legacy at all. Star city games is the only corporation that does. Does anyone think that the future of legacy is doomed? I hear all the time from rumors that star city is going to replace legacy with modern, and that would be awful haha. What do you guys think? Any information please post on this thread

[zeagle]

It will be interesting to see what SCG does for 2014. Ben Bleiwiess (SCGs main buyer) said that they will continue support through 2013 https://twitter.com/BenBleiweiss/status/261939546420305920 (https://mobile.twitter.com/BenBleiweiss/status/261939546420305920).

However they started experimenting with the Sunday format this year in the cities with low legacy turnout. I don't think the experiments were a smashing success. So, I'd bet the number of legacy Sundays will stay the same or increase slightly for 2014.

As for Wizard's they are obviously decreasing the support for legacy. There are fewer legacy GPs for 2014. They moved the legacy champs away from Gencon, making it less appealing for travelers. Also for this year they moved it with little notice which will likely decrease attendance because some planned for it to be at Gencon. Further, they don't really care about legacy on mtgo. Prices are not reasonable and don't encourage new or existing players to play legacy online.

But, modern is not really a huge success. They decreased the number of modern GPs in 2014. There are very few large modern tournaments outside of GPs and PTQs. I think many people play it only because it is the competitive alternative to standard and limited.

Once they make modern more likable (broaden the card pool with reprints and/or pushing the start beyond Eighth, and unbanning most cards and not banning cards with as much frequency) I think legacy will go the way of vintage. That is only after it gains support from players and more importantly SCG. I'd estimate that modern will be fixed and widely adapted in 5 years.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

To my knowledge, Wizard's has never really heavily supported legacy (for as long as I've played it and according to what other people have told me)

They are kinda/sorta not really pushing Legacy on MTGO, the MOCS promos have been legacy staples (Force, Savannah, etc), although re-releasing master's edition would help tons

Probably should say something about the format when it still remains this popular when faced with utter indifference (more or less) from wizards.

[apple713]

To my knowledge, Wizard's has never really heavily supported legacy (for as long as I've played it and according to what other people have told me)

They are kinda/sorta not really pushing Legacy on MTGO, the MOCS promos have been legacy staples (Force, Savannah, etc), although re-releasing master's edition would help tons

Probably should say something about the format when it still remains this popular when faced with utter indifference (more or less) from wizards.

+1, this guy knows what hes talking about.

Legacy cards on MTGO have 0 value since they cannot be redeemed so they should be reprinted fairly often and in cycles to attract new players. I understand they have some value but only because they are printed in limited quantities. but such limited quantities creates barriers to entry and many people arn't willing to pay more for a digital version of a card than an actual physical version.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

To be frank, the amount you spend on the $50 cards in mtgo (Fow, Goyf [I think he's still up there], LED, Rishadan Port) is saved by the fact the rest of the format is literally a 1/3 (or less) than what it is in real life (Candlabra is like $10, Tabernacle is $4.00).

If the interface wasn't poorly presented, I would wager to bet that their would be more people playing on MTGO (most people who play legacy probably can afford the format online given enough time, minus those whom acquired the cards when they were much cheaper)

[KevinSrednoselac]

tabernacle $4 whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttttttttttttttttt



On another note i am hoping that legacy will become more welcomed soon. Modern is just a better extended. The area where i play has a large legacy scene. We do tournaments once a month for large prizes, and we get 30+ people. I think some places legacy isn't welcomed too well, but its like that for every format. EDH is a large format, but I rarely see EDH organized play, just casual. I know its a casual game, but what's the point of spending tons of money if you play they same people over and over again?

[astormbrewing]

It will be interesting to see what SCG does for 2014. Ben Bleiwiess (SCGs main buyer) said that they will continue support through 2013 https://twitter.com/BenBleiweiss/status/261939546420305920 (https://mobile.twitter.com/BenBleiweiss/status/261939546420305920).

However they started experimenting with the Sunday format this year in the cities with low legacy turnout. I don't think the experiments were a smashing success. So, I'd bet the number of legacy Sundays will stay the same or increase slightly for 2014.

As for Wizard's they are obviously decreasing the support for legacy. There are fewer legacy GPs for 2014. They moved the legacy champs away from Gencon, making it less appealing for travelers. Also for this year they moved it with little notice which will likely decrease attendance because some planned for it to be at Gencon. Further, they don't really care about legacy on mtgo. Prices are not reasonable and don't encourage new or existing players to play legacy online.

But, modern is not really a huge success. They decreased the number of modern GPs in 2014. There are very few large modern tournaments outside of GPs and PTQs. I think many people play it only because it is the competitive alternative to standard and limited.

Once they make modern more likable (broaden the card pool with reprints and/or pushing the start beyond Eighth, and unbanning most cards and not banning cards with as much frequency) I think legacy will go the way of vintage. That is only after it gains support from players and more importantly SCG. I'd estimate that modern will be fixed and widely adapted in 5 years.

Legacy GPs in 2013: 3
Legacy GPs in 2014: 2

Modern GPs in 2013: 7
Modern GPs in 2014: 6

There's not that many fewer (though 3 to 2 is a big deal). Though, there are more GPs overall, so percentage-wise it's a significant change.

[HammafistRoob]

Wrong forum, but whatever lol. What can we do to help grow the format is what we should be asking ourselves. At my LGS, there's a lot more Standard and Modern players than Eternal players. But I'd estimate about 90% of these players get very interested when they see my buddy whip out his TES deck and start goldfishing against someones Standard deck. When they say that the only thing holding them off from Legacy is the high prices of staples, I simply explain to them that if they buy 8 blue fetches(most even have these already because of Modern), 4FoWs, and 4-6 blue duals, it becomes relatively cheap to switch gears completely into a different deck. I also explain to them that it's a better investment than Standard because the prices of the cards simply will not drop, only rise. So if they lose interest for whatever reason they can just sell the cards and get basically all, if not more, of their money back. I also explain that not every deck is over 1000$, some decks are about the same price as Standard decks and the cards will actually retain their value in most cases, unlike crappy rotating formats.

TLDR; It's up to us, as a community, to help grow interest in the format. Play other formats, and in between rounds sling some Legacy with someone. It WILL peak peoples interest, and maybe, just maybe, help grow your favorite format. If every Legacy player got one person into the format, we'd double the amount of true Eternal players.

[Deviruchi]

We should be happy that there are still GPs in this format. I'm in a strange situation because my local shops stopped doing Legacy tournaments. There is only Standard, Modern and Limited. People are selling Legacy cards so they can jump into Modern / new Standard. It's sad because store owners don't believe in Legacy as a way to lure new players / grow community and people started to adapt to this situation. My hope is to travel to different cities to play Legacy. Be sure to keep this format alive around you and support the local community or you will end like I and few others.

[twndomn]

Legacy is by far my favorite format. Wizards does not support legacy at all. Star city games is the only corporation that does. Does anyone think that the future of legacy is doomed? I hear all the time from rumors that star city is going to replace legacy with modern, and that would be awful haha. What do you guys think? Any information please post on this thread

This post is BS, totally wrong. Wizard does have Legacy GP. At all you say? Quit lying.

A better way to describe: Wizard treats Legacy much like a bastard child. Yes, Wizard cares, but just barely register on the radar.

What do we think? I think you need to stop trolling, do your homework first.

[JBlaze]

I am pretty sure that Legacy will never really die. It may go the way of Vintage but with a much bigger player base because the choke point is duals and other reserved list stuff not power. Let me pose a question. Suppose the Magic apocalypse hits, WOTC goes out of business, SSG folds many tears are shed. What are you guys gonna do with all these cool cards with the funny pictures?
I know what I'm gonna do and that is KEEP FUCKING PLAYING, no doubt about it, Legacy(and Vintage) are the only formats that would survive. I don't know about you but when I play block constructed, standard or modern it is usually at some PTQ or testing for one. When I play Legacy I play it for the love of the game and nothing is going to change that.

[Dice_Box]

GP hits town in 5 weeks. Two events are Legacy based with the prize for first on day one being a Moat. I do not think we have a
lot to worry about.

[KobeBryan]

so you are telling me, SCG, the largest supplier of cards for the secondary market, is going to drop a format that allows them to sell MUCH more cards for a format that lets you only sell half as many cards?

It doesn't make any sense business wise. And if you think they will do so, you should not be a businessman.

[Backseat_Critic]

so you are telling me, SCG, the largest supplier of cards for the secondary market, is going to drop a format that allows them to sell MUCH more cards for a format that lets you only sell half as many cards?

It doesn't make any sense business wise. And if you think they will do so, you should not be a businessman.

Nice shot Kobe! They're basically the only ones keeping competitive legacy alive, and that gives them the ability to a lot of business in older cards. If SCG switched to modern, for instance, the attendance difference (plus or minus) would be relatively insignificant to the dive their legacy inventory would take, and their ability to turnover said inventory. Legacy will have to start seeing the entry barriers of vintage for SCG to dump it (like it did vintage). Right now, as anyone on the source will tell you, it's possible to get a competitive deck with staples and save money over standard in the long term. There are a lot more duals than power. Etc...

As for the doomsday scenario (SCG dumps), I also don't think that will be as bad for us, the legacy players, as many seem to think. I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon, but if it does it'll just be like old legacy before SCG. Honestly, that was a pretty awesome time. The cards were much cheaper (although we may not see drastic price drops), brewing was rampant, the metagame moved slowly, people slowly tuned their pet decks, and the community was what made the format. If we go back to that, it won't be the worst thing in the world.

I've seen some jokers on salvation trying to say that duals or fetches need to be banned or legacy is done for. We don't even need to discuss the merits of this nonsense here on the source, but what this is showing me is that the barbarians are at the gates. They played modern, maybe a little legacy, and can tell which is more fun. I think that modern may come to have a negative impact on legacy, but not in the way many believe. It won't be from modern siphoning off our player base, it will be giving all the standard kids a taste of eternal which will leave them somewhat unsatisfied. Then you'll see legacy 'fans' arguing for the banning of dual lands... Wizards gave us benign neglect, will likely continue to do so, and as a result we have a great format. We don't need to be saved by drastic intervention a la modern.

To wrap up my points, SCG won't be dumping legacy any time in the foreseeable future. Also, I believe wizards will continue with a light touch on legacy which will be to our benefit. Modern will send us new eternal players who want to wade deeper into the pool. I think a lot of them will see what legacy's about, like it, and become great community members. There will be some who will look at legacy and assume that the modern format shaping principles apply. Hopefully they will eventually see the light or leave. The introduction of modern will cause some shifts in legacy, but I don't see a scenario where we can truly lose. Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

[KevinSrednoselac]

@twndomn stop freaking out, I did my homework there is 2-3 grand prix for legacy a year. Star city is starting to even do double standards. Don't tell me that this post is BS if you think so then stay off of it, no one asked you to reply to this.

@Kobebryan

its not the fact that it allows you more card selection in a format, its the fact that the cost to run the event doesn't make them much money. If only 200 people play at legacy events, they probably don't even break even.

[KevinSrednoselac]

@ backseat

I can see where your coming from and agree with you.

And banning duals and fetches? LOLOLOLOLOL

I'm sorry you had to deal with those people.

[Nidd]

If SCG ever feels like Modern would give them more revenue than Legacy, they'd drop it faster than you can imagine - after selling nearly everything they have in stock in terms of Legacy staples.
The only reason for Legacy being what it is today is the SCG tournament circuit. In Europe, where big Legacy tournaments are scarce, Legacy has a much smaller community.
Now imagine what would happen if SCG drops the support of the format in favor of something else. Maybe you guys can keep it alive. Maybe some other organization is able to continue the heritage. But I doubt it'll live on.
Ultimately, we are all "at mercy" of SCG.

I'm hesitant whether to invest in the format again. I'd like some sort of statement from a SCG affiliate whether they'll support the format next year in the same way they've done so in the past, or whether they'll drop the ball and look for another format. But hey, who am I to ask for something like that...

This forum has it's sky-is-falling-down threads every once in a while, it's not like the format has died, yet. But as someone with a very limited budget (at least currently), I have to be overly-cautious.

[Dice_Box]

I think a better question to ask is: Would it effect you?

If your like me, you play at your local store once a week or twice a month or whatever the rotation is. You see the same 30 to 40 faces, you know their names. Hell you even know what food they show up with. The closing of SCG Legacy would not effect you at all of you are in that situation.

Now why am I in that situation? Because SCG does not exist here in Australia. We get MAYBE 2 events a year in the whole country dedicated to legacy. But at a ground level the game is fine. We show up week by week and we play.

I would expect that if SCG died over there the situation would be the same. You would still all go to your events each week and play. It's a social night out just without beer. Everyone will still show up because they like the game and they have made friends at the store. None of that would change.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Dzra]

I still can't understand for the life of me why Wizards has been so against supporting Legacy. The format has basically survived and even thrived against all odds. Most of the pros will say that Legacy is the most skill-testing constructed format and many will even call it the most fun format. It may never make them as much as Standard, but then again, neither will Modern. With small tweaks, Modern Master could have been "Legacy Masters" and would have likely been much more lucrative for them. I imagine that a good portion of their Modern Masters sales were because there was so much crossover in the set to Legacy. Yes, I understand that the Reserved List is a concern and all of that, but excepting Alpha duals, there is very little that is actually relevant on the Reserve List.

[Gheizen64]

If Modern were a MM onward format, with this banned list:

Bridge From Below

Disciple of the Vault

Hypergenesis

Mind’s Desire

Sensei’s Divining Top

Skullclamp

Sword of the Meek

Brainstorm


Then Legacy would probably go the way of the dodo, because this format would play 95% like legacy, with no force but Mental Misstep, Elves as the top combo deck, and Storm good but not too much because of the lack of Petals/LEDs, and with multicolor decks rampant because of no Wasteland (there's still Port), but shocks as the balancing factors for manabases, and more important, no reserved list.
With Modern as it is now, so basically a glorified standard with the ugliest manabases you can see, random cards banned everywhere and top deck that are basically rehashes of old (Jund zzz), then i don't think Modern will ever replace Legacy.

Legacy is also, ironically, far safer for people who want to invest long-term in decks because:

- harder to see a card banned in legacy, so everything you'll have will most keep values
- harder to see some cards reprinted, if not downright impossible for some (reserved list ahoy)

So if people ever wanted to drop from Standard for monetary reasons, Legacy would often be the better option.

Also i'd really like to see Mental Misstep unbanned in Modern because that card did nothing in standard and would have prevented so many bannings it's ridicolous (Nacatl, most combo cards that were banned). With curves so much higher on average, and with shocks+fetch already putting you at 15 every single game, Mental Misstep would be the glue that hold Modern together, and it wouldn't be necessarily blue. But let's ban everything because reasons sigh. Even a card like Bitterblossom or Ancestral Vision would be perfectly fine, seriously looking at that format banned list give me an headache.

[twndomn]

I still can't understand for the life of me why Wizards has been so against supporting Legacy. The format has basically survived and even thrived against all odds.

Because WotC's revenue, like 90% of it, primarily comes from Standard and Limited. Contra to popular perception, Legacy is actually the most economical format. After the initial investment, Legacy players pretty much stop investing in expensive cards, unless you want to switch from one deck to a completely different angle of deck. The community, as a whole, will not generate profit for WotC.

Corporation's main concern is Growth, regardless the domain. WotC's concentration is to increase the population of Magic players from all the collectable card game players, not format switching within the community.

Bottom line is that KevinSrednoselac's wrong, as everyone here has pointed out. You can speculate or argue about WotC all you want, doesn't matter.

[Nidd]

Discussions about fantasy formats are not fruitful at all. They are exactly that: Fantasies.

Legacy generates a very low amount of revenue for WotC, therefore it's not supported all that much. Which is only logical. We have a very big and vibrant community, though, which sets us apart from other formats and enables us to grow as a whole. Growth for the format is hard to come by, though, which is a sideeffect of the prices being that "stable".

[Dzra]

Because WotC's revenue, like 90% of it, primarily comes from Standard and Limited.

I agree with this. Like Modern, Legacy will never make WotC as much money as Standard.


After the initial investment, Legacy players pretty much stop investing in expensive cards, unless you want to switch from one deck to a completely different angle of deck. The community, as a whole, will not generate profit for WotC.

I do not agree here. Cards like Terminus, Abrupt Decay, Snapcaster Mage, Deathrite Shaman, and Young Pyromancer are all recent printings that have had a very large impact on Legacy and offer WotC a way to make money off of Legacy. They cannot make as much as they do off of Standard, but certainly as much as they do off Modern. In addition to natural printings, additional print runs akin to Modern Masters (but targeted at Legacy) offer another way to make money off Legacy.


Legacy generates a very low amount of revenue for WotC, therefore it's not supported all that much. Which is only logical. We have a very big and vibrant community, though, which sets us apart from other formats and enables us to grow as a whole. Growth for the format is hard to come by, though, which is a sideeffect of the prices being that "stable".

Legacy only generates a low amount of revenue because it is unsupported; there is nothing intrinsic about Legacy that makes it have low profitability. If Legacy were promoted and backed like Modern is now, it could easily generate much more money than Modern.

[HammafistRoob]

its not the fact that it allows you more card selection in a format, its the fact that the cost to run the event doesn't make them much money. If only 200 people play at legacy events, they probably don't even break even.

Yes they do AT LEAST break even because they buy/sell TONS of cards/sleeves/playmats, amongst other things. You're not taking everything into account here sir.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Wizards could easily make eternal players buy packs if they just put more eternal playables in them. The Thoughtseize reprint is a sad attempt, because nobody's going to buy a box and get maybe one card they'd use. Modern Masters is a good example of tactics they could incorporate into their business plan. Even FtV20 is a good example.

It's not very easy to do this without breaking Standard in half, but it's certainly possible. Cards like Deathrite, Scooze, and Thoughtsieze are good examples of amazing eternal cards that aren't overly powered in Standard/Modern. They just need to be a tad smarter if they want to make money off us is all.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If Legacy were promoted and backed like Modern is now...
So, are you asking for an abolition of the Reserved list?




It's not very easy to do this without breaking Standard in half, but it's certainly possible. Cards like Deathrite, Scooze, and Thoughtsieze are good examples of amazing eternal cards that aren't overly powered in Standard/Modern. They just need to be a tad smarter if they want to make money off us is all.
Maybe they don't want to. It may be pretty painful to design and test new cards against all the stuff printed in two decades. I don't think WotC ever thought about some massive support of Eternal, esp. if it would mean all the troubles with RL, reprints, etc.
WotC is a company that prints its own money. Why should they ever try to print again their old money when there's so much trouble with it? They'd rather design some new money that may be printed without all the related problems.

[Dice_Box]

So, are you asking for an abolition of the Reserved list?A man can dream right?


Maybe they don't want to. It may be pretty painful to design and test new cards against all the stuff printed in two decades. I don't think WotC ever thought about some massive support of Eternal, esp. if it would mean all the troubles with RL, reprints, etc.
WotC is a company that prints its own money. Why should they ever try to print again their old money when there's so much trouble with it? They'd rather design some new money that may be printed without all the related problems.I have to agree with this. WotC has said they do not test for legacy. Any cards that are printed now that become Legacy staples are either because they where intended to be strong to start with, or by quirk of design.

[Dzra]

So, are you asking for an abolition of the Reserved list?

That is one option, yes. I don't think that WotC actually has to do away with the Reserved List. The thing is that the Reserved List only restricts them just as much as they want it to. They can print Snow Tundras; they can print some crazy Planeshifted almost-a-Tundra; they can actually just print Tundras. How many people do you think are actually going to complain about near-functional reprints of dual lands?



Maybe they don't want to. It may be pretty painful to design and test new cards against all the stuff printed in two decades. I don't think WotC ever thought about some massive support of Eternal, esp. if it would mean all the troubles with RL, reprints, etc.

If Legacy suddenly became supported, that doesn't mean that there is all of a sudden new reason to test and interfere in the format. Legacy picks the cards it picks. There are always bound to be some cards now and again that fall into the Legacy pool; they don't have to make it happen. What they can do is make Legacy Masters type print runs that feature Legacy playables in the same way that Modern Masters helped feed Modern. It's easy money for them, and they don't even have to force feed us a wonky format like Modern to do it.

[lordofthepit]

Why the demise of Legacy is greatly exaggerated (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=8635)

It's hard to predict what will happen in 5 years (e.g. 5 years ago, Extended was arguably the second most played constructed format), but attendance for SCG Legacy Opens has been very strong this year (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=9059), and I don't see any compelling reason for SCG to give Legacy the axe.

[(nameless one)]

Whats with all the talk with stables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable)? I keep seeing it in MTG Salvation as well.

I don't get it.

[Purgatory]

Whats with all the talk with stables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable)? I keep seeing it in MTG Salvation as well.

I don't get it.

Why would you go to MTG Salvation?

[Tylert]

Why would you go to MTG Salvation?

Because they have the greatest D&T thread around.
And because they have all the spoilers before everyone most of the time :)

On topic... let's play Legacy. it's not dead yet. If you guys keep playing, it will never die...

[rockout]

Why do people continue to beat this topic like a dead horse? We all get it. If you are worried so much sell your collection so others can get into the format.

[useL]

Why do people continue to beat this topic like a dead horse? We all get it. If you are worried so much sell your collection so others can get into the format.

ok, wts 40 unlimited duals..... too much trouble selling cards, I prefer to just sit on them.

[(nameless one)]

Honestly I hope Legacy dies so I can play EDH in peace, without having to spend a fortune on mana base that doesn't crap on you for my 5 color monstrosities.

Also, I hope Legacy dies so people like KevinSrednoselac would just sit in a corner and not stir shit. I think a lot of people would like that.

People that play Legacy should just be left in peace by idiots who treat the game like its the New York Stock Exchange. I pray that the North Koreans would just fuck the Legacy format up like what they're trying to do with the stock market. I wish a Tyler Durden for Legacy that would bring the format back into the dark ages.

[nedleeds]

Because WotC's revenue, like 90% of it, primarily comes from Standard and Limited.

D&D waves hello. But if you are speaking about paper magic revenue ... 100% of it comes from new sealed product. It doesn't come from any format. According to my FLGS owner about 1/3 of the people are just filthy casuals who don't participate in any format. That's just people at a store, throw in all the shut-in's and neckbeards and kitchen table finks and you may have 1/2. That includes singles by the way, the cards they can't keep in stock aren't DRS it's crap like Lord of the Undead.

[TsumiBand]

Honestly I hope Legacy dies so I can play EDH in peace, without having to spend a fortune on mana base that doesn't crap on you for my 5 color monstrosities.

Also, I hope Legacy dies so people like KevinSrednoselac would just sit in a corner and not stir shit. I think a lot of people would like that.

People that play Legacy should just be left in peace by idiots who treat the game like its the New York Stock Exchange. I pray that the North Koreans would just fuck the Legacy format up like what they're trying to do with the stock market. I wish a Tyler Durden for Legacy that would bring the format back into the dark ages.

OrsonWellesClapsALot.gif


I keep veering closer to this as well. They'll print EDH product but won't support a format they made themselves? Save the occasional trickle down from Standard, like all the playable Golgari stuff - but then, isn't that just them getting more people to buy Standard cards?

I don't want to turn this into a Reprint Policy discussion, but there can never be a "Legacy Masters" product long as they hold fast to their current approach. And long as legacy players get tricked into buying Standard cards why should they.

[Dzra]

neckbeards

Imagining neckbeards always makes me smile.

[HammafistRoob]

ok, wts 40 unlimited duals..... too much trouble selling cards, I prefer to just sit on them.

Expecting them to hatch soon? Ooohh can we dye their feathers rainbow colors?

[useL]

Expecting them to hatch soon? Ooohh can we dye their feathers rainbow colors?

actually I'd love to get rid of them, but just too much work.

[Kayradis]

Expecting them to hatch soon? Ooohh can we dye their feathers rainbow colors?

Birds Of Paradise

[force_of_phil]

I don't think you can define a format's health purely by how many tournaments are run or which companies are supporting it. Cube and EDH were insanely popular before getting official support, and Modern, despite being officially supported, is no where near as healthy or popular as Legacy. I don't think WotC officially supporting Legacy would even be good for it.

As far as card availability is concerned, dual lands are the only reserved cards critical to the format, and even then there is a much larger supply of revised duals than is needed for the current Legacy player base. It's not like Vintage where there is a very real cap on how many players it can support. Legacy may look absurdly expensive up front, but I would have spent far more to keep up with Standard over the last decade, and the cards I bought haven't lost their value. There is a reason these cards are expensive: they're worth it!

Fun format, little risk of losing money, and I don't have to constantly trade for new stuff and unload rotating stuff. Watching Reid Duke crush the last open by slamming Craterhoofs was just gravy. Couldn't be happier with Legacy right now.

[BenBleiweiss]

Legacy is by far my favorite format. Wizards does not support legacy at all. Star city games is the only corporation that does. Does anyone think that the future of legacy is doomed? I hear all the time from rumors that star city is going to replace legacy with modern, and that would be awful haha. What do you guys think? Any information please post on this thread

"Hey Ben Bleiweiss, you've always let us know about SCG's support of Legacy in the past! I've heard rumors that you're going to replace Legacy with Modern (for the third year in a row!) The source of this rumors is someone who has nothing to do with StarCityGames or anyone associated with the company! Are these rumors true?"

"Hello Inquiring Mind! Our Legacy attendance continued to grow throughout all of our 2013 Open Series, and we are very happy with the format! All initial planning for the 2014 Open Series includes Legacy events at the majority (if not all) of Open Series stops (Team Sealed was extremely popular - Standard/Standard events not so much)! I do not anticipate any Modern Open Series events in 2014, but if we included Modern, it would not be at the expense of Legacy! Thank you for asking me directly!

- Ben"

[lordofthepit]

"Hey Ben Bleiweiss, you've always let us know about SCG's support of Legacy in the past! I've heard rumors that you're going to replace Legacy with Modern (for the third year in a row!) The source of this rumors is someone who has nothing to do with StarCityGames or anyone associated with the company! Are these rumors true?"

"Hello Inquiring Mind! Our Legacy attendance continued to grow throughout all of our 2013 Open Series, and we are very happy with the format! All initial planning for the 2014 Open Series includes Legacy events at the majority (if not all) of Open Series stops (Team Sealed was extremely popular - Standard/Standard events not so much)! I do not anticipate any Modern Open Series events in 2014, but if we included Modern, it would not be at the expense of Legacy! Thank you for asking me directly!

- Ben"

Thanks for the confirmation, Ben!

The Legacy Opens I've been to have always been extremely well run. Until Wizards decides to hold some Legacy GPs within driving distance, which I'm not holding my breath for, I will always consider your SCG Legacy Opens as the pinnacle of competitive Magic.

[danyul]

Awesome. Thanks Ben for taking the time to post.

Now that Legacy has been confirmed through 2014, I hope we can all agree to stop posting these ridiculous "The Legacy sky is falling, btw I've only been playing two months" threads and get back to poopooing on the latest sets, even as they deliver potential Legacy playables into our whiny hands.

[Megadeus]

Great to hear about the Open series! Yes I have noticed that Legacy events have actually gotten larger! The complaints of prices comes with the fact that more and more people actually want to play legacy! More people get into the format, more people want to get in but can't. Obviously it is an issue, but it is a good issue to have. Much better than people leaving the format anyway. And A decent legacy deck costing around 1500~ is fine when compared to vintage (other than dredge) being a decent price of a car. And Modern I feel is not too far behind with pricing. As I was at one point considering dropping legacy and trading my staples so I could build any modern deck, I realized that Modern is actually ridiculously expensive compared to what some people say.

[Dzra]

"Hey Ben Bleiweiss, you've always let us know about SCG's support of Legacy in the past! I've heard rumors that you're going to replace Legacy with Modern (for the third year in a row!) The source of this rumors is someone who has nothing to do with StarCityGames or anyone associated with the company! Are these rumors true?"

"Hello Inquiring Mind! Our Legacy attendance continued to grow throughout all of our 2013 Open Series, and we are very happy with the format! All initial planning for the 2014 Open Series includes Legacy events at the majority (if not all) of Open Series stops (Team Sealed was extremely popular - Standard/Standard events not so much)! I do not anticipate any Modern Open Series events in 2014, but if we included Modern, it would not be at the expense of Legacy! Thank you for asking me directly!

- Ben"

Thanks, that is good to hear.


Now that Legacy has been confirmed through 2014, I hope we can all agree to stop posting these ridiculous "The Legacy sky is falling, btw I've only been playing two months" threads and get back to poopooing on the latest sets, even as they deliver potential Legacy playables into our whiny hands.

The Gods are such poop. So disappointing.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why do people continue to beat this topic like a dead horse?
Because of expensive stables.

[lordofthepit]

Because of expensive stables.

How many horses do you have?

[Megadeus]

How many horses do you have?

I lol'd

[KevinSrednoselac]

Lol I feel so much better. Thanks ben! I didn't know I'd be able to reach anyone big on this website, I guess I underestimated the power of mtgthesource.com

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I lol'd
So did I.

[DragoFireheart]

At best, Legacy will go the way of Vintage.

At worst, you're going to have to sell some horse stables.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

At best, Legacy will go the way of Vintage.

At worst, you're going to have to sell some horse stables.

I hoard Great Stable Sack, just in case the price gets stoned-high high.

[Illusions]

I'm relatively new to the game (been playing around 12 months), so I might be off with some of this, but I felt compelled to pitch in on this conversation.

As someone new to the game, I don't see legacy going extinct any time soon, because it offers an experience that cannot be replicated by any other format, and with the change in design direction that has taken place (and only become more apparent since I started playing), this will almost certainly be the case from here on out.

My own experience of the game has been that the design and development team don't actually understand what they are doing, in part because their modern design philosophy is based on faulty principles. I mean, in standard and modern, my opponent can drop a 2 or 3 mana threat that is capable of ending the game in a few turns, yet a 2 mana counterspell that is time dependent and a useless topdeck is considered broken. Likewise, it's okay for my opponent to go infinite on turn 4 or 5, yet drawing 3 cards on turn 5 is somehow busted enough to warrant a ban. It's completely ass-backwards to me that the win conditions are more efficient than the answers, because it basically shunts the game towards one deck type. There's not really any variety if every colour combination is playing the same basic strategy, especially when creatures are a constant source of damage that must be answered, whilst instants and sorceries generally only get to be used once.

This is largely because the modern R&D team believes that creatures are the most inherently interactive aspect of magic, and the game should thus focus on the combat step as the primary interactive phase. The problem with this is that it's not only wrong, it's also fucking boring. In a question and answer sense, it's true that creatures always pose a question, but the question is always the same: i.e. can you block this creature, remove it, or ignore it? In contrast, there is an interactive phase called the stack that occurs every time a spell is cast, and the interaction is only limited by the rules your deck plays by, which of course, are modified by your cards. There's a universe of difference between your opponent bashing for 4 damage with mana up for bloodrush, and someone brainstorming in response to your cabal therapy, then you wastelanding their fetch to force them to shuffle those cards away. It's hardly even the same game.

In all of Mark Rosewater's blogs, he constantly talks about fun like it's some kind of quantifiable entity that can be distilled and injected into the game, but not once have I seen the guy talk about strategic depth, or the positive value of non-creature interactions. As a player, I want to be faced with different and complex strategies as I play. I want to be able to decide for myself what fun is, and I want the style of gameplay that I find fun to be viable. This just isn't possible in standard, because the valid strategies are dictated by cards that WotC have clearly pushed to be stronger than competing options, in part so they know what decks will be played. In modern, the decks play past one another because there aren't many powerful answers to slow the game down. When building my modern deck, my only thought was "how can I be faster or more back breaking?" rather than "how can I be more resilient?" or "what's the best way to answer my opponent's plays?". This is a serious problem that won't be rectified without a paradigm shift in design philosophy.

Of course, the sycophants can't see it, because most of them came over from Yugioh anyway, so they don't realise the game was originally something different. They will keep playing the slot machine format that is draft, and using those cards for standard whilst extolling the virtues of rotation, and laughing at how busted blue is while they drop undercosted green creatures with hexproof that win the game in 3 turns. And that's okay, because they don't want the game that I want to play. I'll play a format where I can lay waste to my opponent's mana, dig for the one card in my deck that will save me, and where the interaction between players is more important than the arbitrary exchange of life totals that occurs during the combat step. I want to play the game where I'm actually, you know, a fucking planeswalker that casts spells, that doesn't rely on creatures to do everything else for me (I mean seriously, doesn't the piss poor flavour of everything being creature-based bother anyone else? I'm meant to be a god damned mage, not a zoo keeper).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. The real death of legacy won't be due to overpriced reserve list cards; it will happen when WotC inevitably makes creature based strategies so good that the answers in legacy are no longer enough, and at that stage, we might as well be playing modern with older card frames. In the meantime, legacy will see steady growth due to players like myself, who are more interested in diverse gameplay, and who don't have a problem with playing through and around strategies such as land destruction, hand disruption, counters, and prison locks, and who are prepared to spend the money to play such a game.

Cheers!

[MightyPenguin007]

Lots of very relevant stuff.

I think you win this thread. This pretty much sums up everything I feel about the format and how R&D is responding with each new set that is released.

Thank you.

[apple713]

I'll play a format where I can lay waste to my opponent's mana, dig for the one card in my deck that will save me, and where the interaction between players is more important than the arbitrary exchange of life totals that occurs during the combat step. I want to play the game where I'm actually, you know, a fucking planeswalker that casts spells, that doesn't rely on creatures to do everything else for me (I mean seriously, doesn't the piss poor flavour of everything being creature-based bother anyone else? I'm meant to be a god damned mage, not a zoo keeper).


Cheers!

Great post. I just wanted to point out that you identified the reason i do not play standard. I haven't been able to put it into words but the format never appealed to me and its probably because the format is linear. I cant remember the last time there was a combo deck in standard that was viable since time sieve.

[lordofthepit]

I'm relatively new to the game (been playing around 12 months), so I might be off with some of this, but I felt compelled to pitch in on this conversation.

As someone new to the game, I don't see legacy going extinct any time soon, because it offers an experience that cannot be replicated by any other format, and with the change in design direction that has taken place (and only become more apparent since I started playing), this will almost certainly be the case from here on out.

My own experience of the game has been that the design and development team don't actually understand what they are doing, in part because their modern design philosophy is based on faulty principles. I mean, in standard and modern, my opponent can drop a 2 or 3 mana threat that is capable of ending the game in a few turns, yet a 2 mana counterspell that is time dependent and a useless topdeck is considered broken. Likewise, it's okay for my opponent to go infinite on turn 4 or 5, yet drawing 3 cards on turn 5 is somehow busted enough to warrant a ban. It's completely ass-backwards to me that the win conditions are more efficient than the answers, because it basically shunts the game towards one deck type. There's not really any variety if every colour combination is playing the same basic strategy, especially when creatures are a constant source of damage that must be answered, whilst instants and sorceries generally only get to be used once.

This is largely because the modern R&D team believes that creatures are the most inherently interactive aspect of magic, and the game should thus focus on the combat step as the primary interactive phase. The problem with this is that it's not only wrong, it's also fucking boring. In a question and answer sense, it's true that creatures always pose a question, but the question is always the same: i.e. can you block this creature, remove it, or ignore it? In contrast, there is an interactive phase called the stack that occurs every time a spell is cast, and the interaction is only limited by the rules your deck plays by, which of course, are modified by your cards. There's a universe of difference between your opponent bashing for 4 damage with mana up for bloodrush, and someone brainstorming in response to your cabal therapy, then you wastelanding their fetch to force them to shuffle those cards away. It's hardly even the same game.

In all of Mark Rosewater's blogs, he constantly talks about fun like it's some kind of quantifiable entity that can be distilled and injected into the game, but not once have I seen the guy talk about strategic depth, or the positive value of non-creature interactions. As a player, I want to be faced with different and complex strategies as I play. I want to be able to decide for myself what fun is, and I want the style of gameplay that I find fun to be viable. This just isn't possible in standard, because the valid strategies are dictated by cards that WotC have clearly pushed to be stronger than competing options, in part so they know what decks will be played. In modern, the decks play past one another because there aren't many powerful answers to slow the game down. When building my modern deck, my only thought was "how can I be faster or more back breaking?" rather than "how can I be more resilient?" or "what's the best way to answer my opponent's plays?". This is a serious problem that won't be rectified without a paradigm shift in design philosophy.

Of course, the sycophants can't see it, because most of them came over from Yugioh anyway, so they don't realise the game was originally something different. They will keep playing the slot machine format that is draft, and using those cards for standard whilst extolling the virtues of rotation, and laughing at how busted blue is while they drop undercosted green creatures with hexproof that win the game in 3 turns. And that's okay, because they don't want the game that I want to play. I'll play a format where I can lay waste to my opponent's mana, dig for the one card in my deck that will save me, and where the interaction between players is more important than the arbitrary exchange of life totals that occurs during the combat step. I want to play the game where I'm actually, you know, a fucking planeswalker that casts spells, that doesn't rely on creatures to do everything else for me (I mean seriously, doesn't the piss poor flavour of everything being creature-based bother anyone else? I'm meant to be a god damned mage, not a zoo keeper).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. The real death of legacy won't be due to overpriced reserve list cards; it will happen when WotC inevitably makes creature based strategies so good that the answers in legacy are no longer enough, and at that stage, we might as well be playing modern with older card frames. In the meantime, legacy will see steady growth due to players like myself, who are more interested in diverse gameplay, and who don't have a problem with playing through and around strategies such as land destruction, hand disruption, counters, and prison locks, and who are prepared to spend the money to play such a game.

Cheers!


Welcome to the Source!

Great job capturing what makes Legacy so special.

[jandax]

This, folks, is how you first post^^^

Excellent essay, should be forwarded to RnD themselves

[dontbiteitholmes]

Great post. I just wanted to point out that you identified the reason i do not play standard. I haven't been able to put it into words but the format never appealed to me and its probably because the format is linear. I cant remember the last time there was a combo deck in standard that was viable since time sieve.

Splinter Twin was like 2 years ago. That said it will probably be a while before we see another.

[danyul]

I would like to nominate Backseat Critic and Illusions for the 2016 Presidential race.

[Lemnear]

The nominee for the best 1st-post in TheSource's history

[Barook]

Excellent post, illusions.

Sadly, Herp-a-Derp (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59088) like this with pretty much no interaction at all is the direction we're heading for. A common sequence in Standard now looks like this:

Tap mana, play dudes, turn them sideways, wipe drool off face.

Not that S&T decks are much better in that regard.

I agree that Legacy is still going to thrive as long as Modern remains a shallow PoS that is just as expensive. Lack of social interaction aside, whether or not MODO remains an alternative is yet to be seen since Wizards can't be arsed to reprint staples, leading the same problem paper Legacy has. Yes, they print promos, but as long as they waste slots for crap like Ratchet Bomb instead of duals, Wasteland, Port, LED, etc., things aren't going to change.

[Kayradis]

That guy.
Yeah.
That guy.
Vote for him next elections.

[Phelix]

I agree that Legacy is still going to thrive as long as Modern remains a shallow PoS that is just as expensive. Lack of social interaction aside, whether or not MODO remains an alternative is yet to be seen since Wizards can't be arsed to reprint staples, leading the same problem paper Legacy has. Yes, they print promos, but as long as they waste slots for crap

I just got out of modo legacy, because they kept giving away staples for free, that i paid loads for- duals, force of will etc. With no modo reserve list, sitting on 4.000 worth stuff that might be worthless overnight was too scary.

[Dan Turner]

Last time I played standard I was running project X.

I play magic for the strategy and making my opponent think. If I wanted to just turn dudes sideways i would go play pokemon.

[Barook]

I just got out of modo legacy, because they kept giving away staples for free, that i paid loads for- duals, force of will etc. With no modo reserve list, sitting on 4.000 worth stuff that might be worthless overnight was too scary.
I seriously doubt they would go "worthless overnight". Hell, Fow went down to about 70$ or so and is 93$ again. Promos can't handle the demand. Same goes for MMA staples - the prince increase they have seen since then has been insane.

The only thing that can actually ruin the value of a card is mass reprints in a normal set - like Scavenging Ooze in M14 or Thoughtseize in Theros. But that goes for the paper format as well. JMS is definitely going to rise agains as well once FTV:20 stops being sold.

[Mr.C]

The nominee for the best 1st-post in TheSource's history

Nominee? Heck, it's the best first post I've ever seen, and I've been here for a long, long time.

[Backseat_Critic]

I would like to nominate Backseat Critic and Illusions for the 2016 Presidential race.

Do you guys want to know why legacy will never die? It's because we have players who have only been playing for a year with the perspective of Illusions. Not every magic player can play legacy (due to some inherent constraints), but not every magic player needs to play legacy for it to be a fun, vibrant format. I've been playing this game since pretty close to day one, and I have literally nothing to add to his insights. If every thousandth player who starts playing the game and comes to legacy has even a tenth of this attitude, the format will be in great shape.

Hearing a new player truly grok legacy and not just whine about cost is like having a SEAL team rescue you after you've been tortured for years. Bravo, my friend. I'd be humbled to veep for you.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

[Phelix]

check the value of duals, on mtgo. but for sure they can reprint infinite numbers of duals should they want, online

[the Thin White Duke]

This is largely because the modern R&D team believes that creatures are the most inherently interactive aspect of magic, and the game should thus focus on the combat step as the primary interactive phase. The problem with this is that it's not only wrong, it's also fucking boring. In a question and answer sense, it's true that creatures always pose a question, but the question is always the same: i.e. can you block this creature, remove it, or ignore it?
Cheers!

Okay dude, are you a disgruntle R&D member?
Or maybe this guy is Rosewater, himself!
Whoever you are, I enjoyed reading your post.

[Mr Miagi]

@ Illusions: :eek: :cool: You've articualted what we all feel but didn't have the capacity to wright it down. Mad props!

Seriously, someone should email this to Wizards R&D :)

[HrishiQQ]

In all of Mark Rosewater's blogs, he constantly talks about fun like it's some kind of quantifiable entity that can be distilled and injected into the game, but not once have I seen the guy talk about strategic depth, or the positive value of non-creature interactions. As a player, I want to be faced with different and complex strategies as I play. I want to be able to decide for myself what fun is, and I want the style of gameplay that I find fun to be viable. This just isn't possible in standard, because the valid strategies are dictated by cards that WotC have clearly pushed to be stronger than competing options, in part so they know what decks will be played. In modern, the decks play past one another because there aren't many powerful answers to slow the game down. When building my modern deck, my only thought was "how can I be faster or more back breaking?" rather than "how can I be more resilient?" or "what's the best way to answer my opponent's plays?". This is a serious problem that won't be rectified without a paradigm shift in design philosophy.


Sadly this isn't a problem with magic alone. Devs in many companies talk about fun like it is a quantifiable entity and how they are able to quantify it, without realizing that the players want to decide for themselves what is fun. It sickens me each time I read something like that, but that is sadly what modern game R&D seems to have turned into. Then again, there are some people who prefer this kind of thinking and while I don't care what people prefer, it is not what I find fun at all.

Your post is fantastic and I agree with it. I'm a new player too and standard is incredibly boring when compared to playing legacy. The experience you get while playing on legacy is simply not the same as playing on standard.

[Megadeus]

Fwiw we have 350 for sCG atl today. Legacy is in fact not dying

[danyul]

Damn. That's awesome. Are you playing? If so, good luck!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would like to nominate Backseat Critic and Illusions for the 2016 Presidential race.
May I wear both badges?
Brilliant post, Illusions!

[lordofthepit]

This is why people are frustrated with the herp-derp creatures mentality of current R&D:


Jund, Jund, Affinity, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund. Nice top8 at #gpdetroit #modern


Sorry, false alarm, theres 1 Pod and only 6x Jund! “@fullmetal779: @Juzam_ @AffinityForBlue ben stark is so good wotc listed him twice”

Edit: Apparently, only 6 Jund decks. I just quoted a Twitter feed from https://twitter.com/Juzam_/status/379338176566788096

[Barook]

This is why people are frustrated with the herp-derp creatures mentality of current R&D:

Jund, Jund, Affinity, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund. Nice top8 at #gpdetroit #modern
This is hilarious. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpdet13/welcome#1)

Ok, two can't be classified as Jund since they lack red, but they core is pretty much the same.

I expect another round of bans in Modern pretty soon.

Edit: Okay, it's "only" six BGx decks since one is Melira Pod.

[apple713]

This is hilarious. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpdet13/welcome#1)

Ok, two can't be classified as Jund since they lack red, but they core is pretty much the same.

I expect another round of bans in Modern pretty soon.

Edit: Okay, it's "only" six BGx decks since one is Melira Pod.

ok so what do you ban? Tarmogoyf, Liliana, DRS, and Dark confidant are the common linkages.

Arguments can be made for all

DRS is way to efficient creature for 1 hybrid mana.
Liliana cant be easily dealt with by other decks
Tarmogofy is too efficient a beater for the removal currently in the format
dark confidant provides too efficient card advantage for his cost. CMC of 2 that is splashable...

ban them all and give modern a fresh start ha.

[Aggro_zombies]

I sincerely doubt they want to ban either of the two highest-profile Modern Masters cards right after they printed more of them.

There probably won't be action until the next B&R announcement since - AFAIK - they're announcing the September round sometime this week, possibly tonight. But I could be wrong.

[DragoFireheart]

I would like to nominate Backseat Critic and Illusions for the 2016 Presidential race.

Will they be as successful as Obama?

[jandax]

I think Obama could use one/them as a speech writer

[Higgs]

If the GP Detroit happened in Legacy, but with Shardless BUG instead of BGx, the Internet would come crashing down with call for bans, especially for Brainstorm. I think the way things are, Modern has a loooong way before it can become as enjoyable an alternative to Legacy. Which shows to me Legacy isn't near ready to die yet :)

[Barook]

Visions and/or Agent would be more likely in that case. We had 7/8 Top 8s with Brainstorm decks before.

[Backseat_Critic]

Is it wrong to feel a little bit of delight over the gp detroit top 8? I honestly want modern to succeed, but I'm still a legacy man at heart. This just makes me smile because the stream of poorly concieved legacy ban suggestions is endless.

This is exactly the situation that illusions described. NWO at wizards has deemed combo and control unfun. Tempo also does not have the proper support for modern (free counters). This leaves aggro and midrange. Midrange preys on aggro. There was a respectable control deck to keep midrange in check (uwr), but it relied on modern's worst color and was outpaced. The format is doomed to x color good stuff decks, that autoinclude green and black. There's not a lot of pressure on mana bases, so deck builders can sprinkle more good stuff from other colors as desired. If these format contours appeal to you, then modern is pretty sweet.

There are some valid criticisms of brainstorm, but no one could say with a straight face that the card acts as some kind of hegemon. It also enables multiple archetype and not just the now ubiquitous midrange good stuff. I actually got a chuckle when I saw the scg guys unveil esper (4 color) deathblade, because it was the perfect expression of the nwo clown car, x color where x>3, good stuff deck that epitomize the other eternal format. There are some vocal proponents (scg grinders), but it is ultimately just one drop in a sea of contenders. I like that x-color good stuff is a thing in legacy. I like even more that it's not the thing.

This thread may be titled, the future of legacy, but I don't think that's a big worry. How's about leave legacy alone, and try to come up with some suggestions for modern.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

[DragoFireheart]

If the GP Detroit happened in Legacy, but with Shardless BUG instead of BGx, the Internet would come crashing down with call for bans, especially for Brainstorm. I think the way things are, Modern has a loooong way before it can become as enjoyable an alternative to Legacy. Which shows to me Legacy isn't near ready to die yet :)

Sadly it may die still due to dual-land prices, but there's a certain sadistic joy in knowing that WotC will likely kill Modern before Legacy dies off.

PS: I forgot I said that in regards to you quoting me. I made a new "prediction". :wink: