Demon Stompy: Best deck approach?

[Mystical_Jackass]

Demon Stompy's been around for quite some time, but as more and more demons and power creep get released we now have a lot more options than we did a few years ago. At the moment I'm sort of at a crossroads of which direction is the best approach so I was hoping to get some feedback.

One approach was more of an "All-In" where I'd run heavy accelerants and essentially try to "drop my hand" in a couple turns, the deck would be scaled around 2-3 CMC. The other approach is the more gradual... I wouldn't call it "control", but maybe going for more the safer/consistent approach, throwing in some tutors, Recurring Nightmare, and a plethora of the Biggie 4 CMC power creeps.

I'll list the essential support spells, and give them a tentative rating based on my opinion, their overall Rating:
4--Staple Card
3--Good, but debatable
2--Possible consideration
1--Not really

Support Spells

Chrome Mox (4)
Staple.

Chalice of the Void (4)
Staple.

Trinisphere (2)
It's great to random a combo player, but many times you wish it was something else, especially late draw. It slows them down, but I question if needed main deck?

Unmask (3)
I just love this card, it's essentially the Black complement to FoW in Faerie Stompie. This is just my opinion, but I almost like it better in some ways, because it takes a more proactive approach, you get to see their hand and remove their biggest threat which gives you a huge advantage.

Recurring Nightmare (2)
Fits the curve of the deck, amazing recursion engine but the deck needs to be sort of catered to that strategy or it can quickly be a dead card in your hand.

Dark Ritual (2)
Very powerful in most decks, but its lack of synergy with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and the fact that it's SO all-in really makes me doubt if the one-turn boost should be clogging your hand, because that's one less creature/equipment/Chalice/etc it could be instead.

The "Swords" (4)
SoFI & SoLS being the obvious choices, all staples imo for the protection, evasion, and card advantage.

Jitte (2)
Amazing card, but I'm not a fan that it doesn't protect your creatures and possibly fights with Chalice 2.

Rhystic Tutor (2)
The first couple turns when you can out-mana your opponents, it's essentially a :2::b: demonic tutor. This could basically fill the Trinket role, the downside is the restriction and you don't get a 2/2 body, the upside is that you can get literally ANY card, whether you need an extra land, Chalice, Shriekmaw or whatever.

Damnation (1)
I've really had bad luck running this, I wouldn't recommend because it's almost contradictory to your strategy. YOU want to be the one going agro, but playing this assumes your willing to take a defensive position to gain an advantage. It doesn't work, if you do this against a good Goblin player they'll know not to overcommit, you'll sweep board, and next 1-2 turns they'll bounce right back. You simply lack the card advantage too to capitalize on a reset, I'd recommend Bane of the Living or something that's "built into" your strategy.

Tangle Wire (?)
I have no experience playing with this card, but I've heard a lot of good things.


Strategy #1: All-In

This idea was to pretty much just drop your hand and ride for win. Something more like this...

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Trinisphere
4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Demonic Taskmaster
4 Bitterblossom
6-8 SoFI/SoLS


Strategy #2: Gradual/Control Approach

Okay, so the deal here is to play a slightly higher mana curve, but use Rhystic Tutor as more of a toolbox to get the right creatures or spells to seal the deal, even throwing a 1-of Nether Void to tutor for if you have the lock, or fetching a sword or Bane of the Living. The higher creature count was to have more threats. This makes Recurring Nightmare more prevalent, can use with Shriekmaw, Blossom Tokens, or to sac Percy. Also Demonic Taskmaster could be used to sac Percy too I guess.

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Rhystic Tutor
1 Nether Void
3-4 Swords
2 Recurring Nightmare
4 Phyrexian Negator/Demonic Taskmaster
4 Bitterblossom
4 Shriekmaw
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2-4 Descration Demon
1-2 Bane of the Living


Give me some feedback, I'm open to any strategies or criticism, or if anyone's tried anything similar.

Thanks

[frogger42]

Hello! I'm very familiar with Stompy and used to play Planeswalker Stax - I'm assuming this runs full Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors, too. Just looking over your card choices, and I think the weakest part of black is your selection of creatures: with the exception of possibly Demonic Taskmaster and Bitterblossom, they're all well below your average Goyf in terms of power level. The reason I mention this is that you need cards that can compete with Stoneforge Mystic and Vendilion Clique and all that, because your opponent is going to Force/Daze/whatever only your strongest cards, and then leave you with a couple Priest of Gix. With this kind of deck, you want everything to be a gamebreaker, since you're spending so many slots on mana and mana accelerants. Just to give Planeswalker Stax as an example, you have Jace TMS, then Tezz AoB, then a whole list of other cards (Ensnaring Bridge, The Abyss) to choose from, each of which smashes the game state and gives you the advantage to win in one turn. Because, with this kind of deck, your opponent is going to stop the first 2-3 things, and that means turn 3-4, you still need to be kicking really hard in their direction. Everything has to be backbreaking.

One of the strongest (and most expensive) cards you can run in this kind of black deck is The Abyss. If there were a way to work it in, I would.

And I would try to stray away from running Dark Ritual. It's great turn 1, but then it's the worst topdeck you've ever seen, especially with Chalice.
Also, you generally don't want to use tutors. You want every play you make to have a board presence, because, as I said, your opp will generally stop everything turns 1-3, and tutoring T4 gives them such a big breath of air and sets you behind.

Oh, and run Liliana of the Veil, too. Even if she doesn't work with Tombs that well.

[-Spooky-]

This is my current list. I am pretty happy with it, but am also open to ideas.

Creatures [22]
1 Dark Impostor
4 Demonic Taskmaster
4 Desecration Demon
2 Liliana's Reaver
4 Plague Spitter
3 Screeching Bat
4 Shriekmaw

Spells [20]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Tribute to Hunger
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [18]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Dark Ritual is the big iffy one. I like the starting plays it allows, but having a dead draw and/or a 1 cost in a deck with Chalice can get pretty awkward.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Thanks for sharing the list.

How has Liliana's Reaver been working for you? I really thought about using, 'cause he's got a similar ability to the one creature in Mono Green Chalice Aggro but the "no evasion" made me skeptical, I'm worried about him trading down with some Nactl or something. Have you ever tried running Tangle Wire with him?

Oh yeah, I forgot about this card, but what do you think about using Snuff Out? Part of me worries about running into other black creatures but we already run Shriekmaw-- but is the tempo worth the risk?

[-Spooky-]

Thanks for sharing the list.

How has Liliana's Reaver been working for you? I really thought about using, 'cause he's got a similar ability to the one creature in Mono Green Chalice Aggro but the "no evasion" made me skeptical, I'm worried about him trading down with some Nactl or something. Have you ever tried running Tangle Wire with him?

Oh yeah, I forgot about this card, but what do you think about using Snuff Out? Part of me worries about running into other black creatures but we already run Shriekmaw-- but is the tempo worth the risk?

Never used tangle wire with him, but I don't think you need to. If you are worried about trading him with someone, just don't attack with him. You have plenty other fatties. Just use him when the coast is clear. Or don't, I mean, hes in there because he is a cost effective beat stick that also happens to do a lot of good stuff when he hits. Nacatl is rarely played nowadays and you should be happy to get rid of delver. Anything beyond that and you are going to want to be deathtouching away whatever is bigger than you anyways.

Snuff out is interesting. I could see it being played. I was always afraid I was going through too much life loss, which is why I have Tribute to Hunger, but I could see it being replaced. You don't always have to cast it for free either. Just keep in mind, you do play 3sphere.

[MGB]

It doesn't work if you also play Plague Spitter, but I've found that Bitterblossom is one of the best cards in Legacy to pair with stuff like Swords and Jittes.

[Dice_Box]

Would Contamination help this deck any? I am so use to locking out with Blood moon when I run these kinds of decks that this is the first thing that came to mind.

[Mystical_Jackass]

All right, I tested out the Strategy 2 approach. Although definitely more testing would be nice, I think I've seen enough to make some pretty descent analysis:

1) Bitterblossom is MVP, I didn't realize how crucial this card is to winning, it's probably the only card I had that can TRULY win on its own. Turn 1 Chalice/3sphere followed up by him really should be #1 gameplan in a perfect world.

2) The 4cc Demons just don't hold their weight, I really wanted to be a believer that Percy & Desecration would crush all the naysayers but just about every deck had some sort of shenanigan that didn't give a &*@ about them... it's almost hard to explain, but picture in a typical game you have 2 cards in hand when they hit the table to their 5+, they just ALWAYS seem to have an answer eventually, one game I even lost 'cause I couldn't get through Maze lol.

3) Rhystic Tutor was surprisingly good "for what it does", I never wasn't able to cast it when I needed. But the funny thing is, I'd sideboard in Leyline & Helm against some matchups and I almost feel like you're pretty much better off playing Mono Black Helm combo if you're going to play Rhystic instead, it made my game 2 & 3's great but didn't do as much for my game 1.

All in all, the deck is fun, but I realized after like turn 4+ it just can't hold up any attrition war. Which leads me to thinking I really just need to try something more like Strategy 1, go all in and just try to ride that to victory. The deck needs finishers besides Bitterblossom that'll carry for win, Negator I might give a shot because he fits 3cmc but I didn't really get to see much of anything from him. Frogger mentioned Liliana, I think that might be the direction I need... basically I need a fast Unmask and/or Chalice/3sphere then just follow up with something that can win game on own. Even creatures like Demonic Taskmage, pretty much the black Sea Drake, I really don't think will cut it against the meta now, it has to be like a blossom/Sorin that'll just overwhelm them before they can vindicate imo.

[frogger42]

All right, I tested out the Strategy 2 approach. Although definitely more testing would be nice, I think I've seen enough to make some pretty descent analysis:
...

2) The 4cc Demons just don't hold their weight, I really wanted to be a believer that Percy & Desecration would crush all the naysayers but just about every deck had some sort of shenanigan that didn't give a &*@ about them... it's almost hard to explain, but picture in a typical game you have 2 cards in hand when they hit the table to their 5+, they just ALWAYS seem to have an answer eventually, one game I even lost 'cause I couldn't get through Maze lol.


I suspected as much. You know, you don't have to stick with mono-B. If you have access to Scrublands, you can throw in Stoneforge Mystic, who makes any deck crazy good. Or Goyf. If you go White, then you can potentially add WB Sorin, too.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I suspected as much. You know, you don't have to stick with mono-B. If you have access to Scrublands, you can throw in Stoneforge Mystic, who makes any deck crazy good. Or Goyf. If you go White, then you can potentially add WB Sorin, too.

I do have Scrublands, and that's not a bad idea splashing White. Sorin + Bitterblossom seems like an absolute house, that's exactly what the deck needs imo, cards that'll just sorta "win on their own".

After doing some further testing, I tried going a Demon Stompy aggro approach with more Taskmage and equipment, then I tested just scrapping and going for a straight-up Leyline/Helm. I feel like the downfall of Demon Stompy... Helm was just safer, usually faster, and more consistent in most cases, and it still opens me up for using Braids, Blossom & Nether Void as Alt-win to seal the deal. People might have other opinions, but as long as mono black can Chalice/3Sphere/Void with Leyline/Helm, the creature aggro approach although more style points, doesn't measure up.

This brings me to my next idea. If I splash White, what do you think about running Rest in Peace alongside Leyeline/Helm? Then Bitterblossom/Sorin/Braids as possible alt-wins or stalls?
Let me mock up a possible deck:

Land (19)I'll figure it out

Lockdown/Tutor (23)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
4 Unmask
4 Rhystic Tutor
2 E. Tutor

Win! (18)
4 Leyline the Void
2 Rest in Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Bitterblossom
2 Sorin (B/W)
2 Braids