Is Goblin Recruiter actually too powerful for the format?

[Tich]

For the record this isn't a B&R speculation thread which is why I'm not posing this question there. I'm just curious what the general consensus is on the card and how it would perform in the current Legacy environment. I was having a debate with a friend earlier and we were both torn on why we thought the card was still banned. He believes that it's simply too powerful and that it would dominate the format. I personally believe that the reason why it's still banned is because resolving the creature takes way too freaking long and Wizards doesn't want more "High Tide"-esque decks in the format. That is, decks which have obnoxiously long single combo turns. I'm curious as to who the players at The Source would side with (if any, maybe you have deeper insights!). If I'm wrong, so be it, I just don't see how Recruiter could be oppressive when it needs the God draw of SSG/Mox + Recruiter + Food Chain to actually go off. You're just playing a bad Goblin deck otherwise which is like a what? Tier 1.5 deck at best realistically? Jim Davis might disagree but Goblins hasn't dominated the top tables in a long time. The reason I ask is because neither of us have ever played with Recruiter so I mean it's tough to provide compelling arguments one way or another. If nothing else getting some communal input might shed some light on the subject. I'm not suggesting that it's a bad obviously, far from it, I just don't see how dominant a combo can actually be in a deck with no protection, draw, manipulation, etc. Sure, you can "just play a Goblin deck," but like, I wouldn't want to "just play a Goblin deck" heh. Maybe the mix of both is what pushes it over the edge but I mean Elves does the same thing and no one is making a fuss about it. I guess Natural Order is a weaker card, there's that to consider, but I mean these kinds of aggro/combo hybrids don't seem especially oppressive to me.

P.S. Apologies if this is posted in the wrong forum. I've been a lurker for many years but not much of a poster and I couldn't really find a great place to ask my question :3.

[slave]

I'm doubtful how much time it takes to resolve a combo, is a large part of the decision to ban it.
It's great for the goblin player, but stacking your deck at any stage of a game, via Aether Vial of course, can be pretty huge swing against the other player, at such an early stage of a game.

[Lemnear]

There's near to no chance that this topic will not escalate into a B&R discussion, but I may give a bit more insight from. my time playing Vintage and Type 1.5

Here the official reasoning:


Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Recruiter's ability to stack an arbitrarily large portion of your deck allows goblin-based combo decks to kill as early as turn 2. That's too fast for a healthy environment and the Recruiter is one of several casualties of our effort to eliminate realistic turn 2 kills from the environment.

Remember that the reasoning is from the stoneage of magic, but it includes the issue of stacking the deck which not only leads to an insane waste of time (topic: stalling) and enables so many possibilities for cheating (you have no clue how many players I saw trying). Moreover it's simply a "repeatable"-tutor and an engine paired with Goblin Ringleader in the likes of Survival of the Fittest, which got banned for the same reasons. Food Chain is not the reason because Recruiter is banned which many players suspect, it's the ability to "Tutor" for your whole deck and/or stalling

[Gheizen64]

Yeah if i recall correctly Menendian once posted a list of decks where every card was legal as a 4-of. The fastest deck in said format was Goblin, but not the Food Chain variant.
I think Recruiter is banned for logistic reasons first and for power level second. I also don't think an eventual Recruiter Goblin would be a top deck, let alone dominate the format, but i don't want it unbanned.

[Lemnear]

Yeah if i recall correctly Menendian once posted a list of decks where every card was legal as a 4-of. The fastest deck in said format was Goblin, but not the Food Chain variant.
I think Recruiter is banned for logistic reasons first and for power level second. I also don't think an eventual Recruiter Goblin would be a top deck, let alone dominate the format, but i don't want it unbanned.

What Stephen once did was testing Vintage decks without restrictions to single copies and Goblins was by far the worst in the testing grid

[Dice_Box]

This topic is common on salvation. So instead of a whole new post I am going to cut and paste my response from there:


The food chain combo is not going to be unbanned. Recruiter is just too strong. Lets take a look at this a moment.

It is a turn 2 combo, with the ability to slide Recruiter in past counters with the printing of Cavern, can create near unanswerable card advantage, beats any deck without a counterspell in hand that it can use and lastly the main enabler is an enchantment. One of the cards that people are least likely to be able to hate out. Now that in all paints a bleak picture for the combo but we have all missed something. Now as someone that still plays the combo, abed only in vintage, the biggest issue missed is the time it takes to make the play.

Now I have gotten good at making it work, I can do it quickly enough but the steps taken to play it out are still not short ones:

1st: Split your deck into two piles.
2nd: Stack one of the piles in the correct order.
3rd: Shuffle second pile, cut, place on table.
4th: Take out your calculator to keep up with your mana supply.
5th: Take the rest of the time needed to combo out, note if you are not totally sure on what you need this part alone can take 10 minutes.
6th: If Food Chain is blown up, crack a fetch and do it all again.

Now put this in a SCG Legacy turny and see how long it takes for eyes to roll. This is not the same as elves going off either because you are not piling your deck, stacking it and then comboing.

Now if that did not take enough time add this: A fetchland open on the table. Why you ask? In case of Krosan Grip. You lose Food chain you want to be able to shuffle. Now this is not a normal card shuffle. Your deck is in two parts, you need to pick it up, put it in 7 piles and do the whole "About to start a round" shuffle. Eating yet more time. If you do not do this everything ends up so clumped up it can be unplayable.

In short, I just do not see it happening. As much as I would like it too because lets be honest, Goblins need a break and are still, on there own merits, the most powerful single tribe.

[DragoFireheart]

With Cavern of Souls now?

Yeah. Nevermind the fact that it's possible for it to delay the game with the player stacking his deck.

[TsumiBand]

Even if Goblins doesn't draw Food Chain or a similar combo piece, there is no way Goblin Recruiter is reasonable.

Recruiter has a long history of being nuts in conjunction with Ringleader. Gobvantage was a thing many many moons ago - Itaru Ishida compared Recruiter favorably to Necropotence. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/worlds03/extgob) That was barely at the advent of Onslaught's infusion of Goblins and subsequent printings of good things - I *think* it even predates the realization of Food Chain as a combo-win in Vintage.

I'd love to play this deck again, but I would hate to see Recruiter legal.

[DragoFireheart]

Even if Goblins doesn't draw Food Chain or a similar combo piece, there is no way Goblin Recruiter is reasonable.

Recruiter has a long history of being nuts in conjunction with Ringleader. Gobvantage was a thing many many moons ago - Itaru Ishida compared Recruiter favorably to Necropotence. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/worlds03/extgob) That was barely at the advent of Onslaught's infusion of Goblins and subsequent printings of good things - I *think* it even predates the realization of Food Chain as a combo-win in Vintage.

I'd love to play this deck again, but I would hate to see Recruiter legal.


Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Ringleader
Cavern of Souls


:laugh:

[AngryTroll]

Food Chain Goblins was a fine deck back in 1.5. That was before Cavern of Souls, and back then the other decks were Landstill (with Mana Drains), Stax (with Workshops), and Dragon (with Bazaars). I really liked that format, but Food Chain Goblins was pretty good.

I don't think you build the deck specifically to be a turn two combo deck. You play regular Goblins with the option of winning at any given point with the combo; Recruiter is still good without Food Chain.

I'd be fine with it unbanned, but it would certainly make Goblins into a Tier 1 deck. I think it'd be good to have a non-blue aggro/combo deck in the top tier. It'd be very, very good, but I'd at least be willing to try having it unbanned for a while.

[Lemnear]

I'd be fine with it unbanned, but it would certainly make Goblins into a Tier 1 deck. I think it'd be good to have a non-blue aggro/combo deck in the top tier. It'd be very, very good, but I'd at least be willing to try having it unbanned for a while.

A non-blue aggro/combo deck like GW Survival was before WotC axed Survival of the Fittest because the deck either spits out Knights each turn OR goes combo with Vengevines?

Seriously, Recruiter isn't too different: You can either combo with Foodchain as substitude or do it within the possibilities of the Trinity between Kiki-Jiki, Skirk Prospector and Krenko. In case the opponent disrupts that combo, you just mimic the value-play of Survival+Knights in Form of Recruiter-chains and win that way.

You think that a deck, which performed well with Bazaar, Drain and Workshop in it's meta is safe?

[AngryTroll]

A non-blue aggro/combo deck like GW Survival was before WotC axed Survival of the Fittest because the deck either spits out Knights each turn OR goes combo with Vengevines?

I really liked all of the flavors of Survival. It's unfortunate that the best of those decks ran Brainstorm, Spell Snare, and Force of Will, because now they were back to UGx.


Seriously, Recruiter isn't too different: You can either combo with Foodchain as substitude or do it within the possibilities of the Trinity between Kiki-Jiki, Skirk Prospector and Krenko. In case the opponent disrupts that combo, you just mimic the value-play of Survival+Knights in Form of Recruiter-chains and win that way.

You think that a deck, which performed well with Bazaar, Drain and Workshop in it's meta is safe?

It'd certainly shake things up a big. I'd love to see what happened. (For the record, I'd unban Survival or Skullclamp for the same purpose: to see what happens.)

[Koby]

Back in the precursor days of Legacy, Goblins used to be a combo deck. When I say combo, I mean cast and activate Goblin Charbelcher to deal lethal damage as early as turn 2.

Think about how absurd that sounds from an Aggro deck in the Extended format. Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/ptno03/d2decks)

Round 11 feature match from Pro Tour New Orleans 2003 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/ptno03/fm11a)
Round 13 feature match from Pro Tour new Orleans 2003 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/ptno03/fm13a)

2 Ancient Tomb
21 Mountain

3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Recruiter
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Skirk Prospector
1 Sparksmith

4 Chrome Mox
3 Goblin Charbelcher

Some even ran Food Chain instead of Charbelcher:


Instead of Charbelcher they run Food Chain. Originally a Your Move Games deck, it was leaked to the general public. The theory is simple: Turn one Recruiter via Chrome Mox, Turn two Food Chain, sacrifice the Recruiter, cast and sacrifice another goblin, then start making and sacrificing Ringleaders, until you can bowl your opponent over with Piledrivers and friends. Even without the element of surprise, nine of its players are in Day 2. Imagine if it had stayed under wraps.

Anyways, carry on.

[Lemnear]

I can tell you what happens:

pissed-off players everywhere leaving Legacy, because creatures clusterfuck each control-deck withh all the cardadvantage while being nearly as fast as combo-decks.

[DragoFireheart]

I can tell you what happens:

pissed-off players everywhere leaving Legacy, because creatures clusterfuck each control-deck withh all the uncounterable cardadvantage while being nearly as fast as combo-decks.

Added a little part.

Stifle might get more popular though.

[Hof]

I would say that Recruiter is probably a fair card to unban. Fair in the sense that the card is in no way better than, say, Show and Tell or LED.
It is only playable in Goblin Tribal, and the speed is not faster than other combo decks.
Oh, and unlike back in those days, Torpor Orb now exists to effectively shut down the entire deck.

[DragoFireheart]

I would say that Recruiter is probably a fair card to unban. Fair in the sense that the card is in no way better than, say, Show and Tell or LED.
It is only playable in Goblin Tribal, and the speed is not faster than other combo decks.
Oh, and unlike back in those days, Torpor Orb now exists to effectively shut down the entire deck.

Oh yeah, forgot about that orb.

Edit: What Koby below me said.

[Koby]

I would say that Recruiter is probably a fair card to unban. Fair in the sense that the card is in no way better than, say, Show and Tell or LED.
It is only playable in Goblin Tribal, and the speed is not faster than other combo decks.
Oh, and unlike back in those days, Torpor Orb now exists to effectively shut down the entire deck.

Even a Pithing Needle can stop Survival, but that isn't enough to justify unban Survival. In fact the same syntax could be used to justify Survival right now. It is still not enough of an argument for its unban.

"I would say that <Survival> is probably a fair card to unban. Fair in the sense that the card is in no way better than, say, Show and Tell or LED.
It is only playable in <Green creature decks>, and the speed is not faster than other combo decks.
Oh, and unlike back in those days, <2 permanent> now exists to effectively shut down the entire deck."

[TsumiBand]

Really given the sheer versatility of Goblins, you can't seriously want Recruiter legal. If there were a Blue card that said

Some Dumb Blue Shit 1U
Sorcery

Snuffle your library, then search for any number of nonland cards and put those cards on top of your library in any order.

People would be like rioting in the streets and shit. It'd be like those futbol riots people get in Ireland or Spain.

That's Goblin Recruiter.

[Hof]

Even a Pithing Needle can stop Survival, but that isn't enough to justify unban Survival. In fact the same syntax could be used to justify Survival right now. It is still not enough of an argument for its unban.
It's not the same thing. Needle stops only Survival itself.

Torpor Orb shuts down or cripples Recruiter, Ringleader, Matron, War Marshal, Siege-Gang, AND the most commonly played Goblin answer to artifacts: Tin-Street and TukTuk Scrapper.
That is what I mean when I say that it shuts down the entire deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I would say that Recruiter is probably a fair card to unban. Fair in the sense that the card is in no way better than, say, Show and Tell or LED.
It is only playable in Goblin Tribal, and the speed is not faster than other combo decks.
Oh, and unlike back in those days, Torpor Orb now exists to effectively shut down the entire deck.

The card is in many ways better than Show and Tell or LED.

Good luck trying to counter a Goblin deck by siding in Torpor Orb.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Goblin tinkerer exists

Put simply, if you can't simply win the game AFTER STACKING YOUR DECK, give up on magic

[apple713]

4th: Take out your calculator to keep up with your mana supply.
5th: Take the rest of the time needed to combo out, note if you are not totally sure on what you need this part alone can take 10 minutes.
6th: If Time Spiral doesn't give you what you need, draw more cards....

Now put this in a SCG Legacy turny and see how long it takes for eyes to roll. This is not the same as elves going off either because you are not piling your deck, stacking it and then comboing.



This sounds like High tide .... *rolls eyes*

[Hof]

Goblin Tinkerer exists, yes. How are you going to tutor for it?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Goblin Tinkerer exists, yes. How are you going to tutor for it?

Are you seriously talking about Torpor Orb as a reason Goblin Recruiter should be unbanned? I mean seriously...

[menace13]

Are you seriously talking about Torpor Orb as a reason Goblin Recruiter should be unbanned? I mean seriously...
He has a fair point! Torpor Orb shuts down Recruiter. Who cares about the 6+ goblins on board attacking every turn that don't have ETB effects?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Are we seriously arguing the unbanning of goblin recruiter because torpor orb?

[Humphrey]

dont forget soldier of fortune

[dontbiteitholmes]

He has a fair point! Torpor Orb shuts down Recruiter. Who cares about the 6+ goblins on board attacking every turn that don't have ETB effects?

Yeah and even those games where you are on the draw and they play Recruiter before you can drop Orb you still blank all those ETB effects and then you just have to worry about them topdecking 30 Goblins in a row, no problem.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah and even those games where you are on the draw and they play Recruiter before you can drop Orb you still blank all those ETB effects and then you just have to worry about them topdecking 30 Goblins in a row, no problem.

But Goblins is a bad tribal deck! Of course it's no problem! /sarcasm

[Hof]

The average content per post in this thread is lacking. If you don't have an argument to make, why bother posting? "Seriously."

OP asked how Goblin Recruiter would perform in the current Legacy environment.

The short answer is we don't know. Many have a feeling that it would be tier 1, including myself. To go into that we need to look at Recruiter decks from an ancient past and the current Legacy environment and try to make reasonable predictions.
How fast would the deck be? How consistent would it be? How resilient to hate would it be?

There are two obvious improvements to the deck in current day environment: Cavern of Souls and the Lightning Crafter/Kiki-Jiki/sac outlet combo which can win at instant speed without attacking.

The deck would probably try to use Food Chain, since that interaction is so powerful. To to able to cast Food Chain on turn two or three (which I assume would be the minimum requirement) in a deck with no non-goblin library manipulation, it would need at least 22-23 mana sources, including probably some acceleration like Ancient Tomb and/or Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal. That leaves room for 33-34 goblins, which is a good number.

I wonder how such a deck would perform against a standard tempo deck like Canadian Threshold. They can Force or Daze the Food Chain, Stifle the Recruiter and follow up with Wasteland. (That matchup would be an interesting first test drive on Cockatrice). What sort of game would the goblin deck have against the combo decks of today, Show and Tell decks, Storm decks, Reanimate/Shallow Grave decks? There is little room for interaction in goblins, so it has to be faster. Would it even be faster than Elves?

Obvious hate cards:
Torpor Orb, Surgical Extraction (nullifies Recruiter for 0 mana, but requires a card in the goblin graveyard.). Ethersworn Canonist (plus an answer to the shatter goblin that follows).

The proposition that "drawing a creature every turn" should be a problem in itself (assuming Torpor Orb in play) is very weak I think.
Sylvan Library does the same thing for a Zoo deck.

About the alleged time issue with Recruiter. I have played against Food Chain Goblins in T1 many times years ago, and I don't recall time being an issue, ever. Nor do I recall Wizards stating time being an issue with the card. Usually it's about grapping 4 standard Ringleader piles and placing them on top. If the player takes longer than a couple of minutes with this, they don't know the deck, and it could be considered slow play. Doomsday piles are probably more complicated to play correctly, despite being only 5 cards.

To be sure, I think the deck would be tier 1 in the current Legacy environment.
Nothing I have seen in this thread so far makes me think that it would be much more than that.

[menace13]

The average content per post in this thread is lacking. If you don't have an argument to make, why bother posting? "Seriously."


The short answer is we don't know. .
So, you're saying nothing.

Obvious hate cards:
Torpor Orb, Surgical Extraction (nullifies Recruiter for 0 mana, but requires a card in the goblin graveyard.). Ethersworn Canonist (plus an answer to the shatter goblin that follows).
Yeah, good luck with that sideboarding plan. The plan of bringing in cards that only do something that doesn't even really effect your opponent as much as it dilutes your deck.

The proposition that "drawing a creature every turn" should be a problem in itself (assuming Torpor Orb in play) is very weak I think.
Sylvan Library does the same thing for a Zoo deck.
Being beatdown to death is ok. Since you know, I had all deez Orbs and am running my own Recruiter in the form of Sylvan Library. Seems good.
.


Yeah and even those games where you are on the draw and they play Recruiter before you can drop Orb you still blank all those ETB effects and then you just have to worry about them topdecking 30 Goblins in a row, no problem.

It's all okay now guys. We haz Library+ORb techz.
C a n n o t L o s e

[ReAnimator]

Hof you seem to want a serious discussion, but the reason you aren't getting anything but dismissive comments is that your whole position of Topor Orb being a legitimate hate piece is beyond laughable. Like what does your Torpor Orb do if all the Goblins decks are running Piledrivers and Chieftains as their back up to disruption plan? What does it do vs a Lackey and beat downs? What does it do if it's not in your opener? what does it do if you are on the draw? What does it do when you draw multiples? There are a million scenarios where the Orb doesn't do anything to keep you from just losing slightly slower. In your best case scenarios it still doesn't come close to stopping them from winning the game.

As for your comment that we don't know how it would perform? there are a lot of questionable cards that we could theorize about on the banned list. But i think Recruiter is way more on the Necro side than the Mind Twist Black vise side, and i don't think it's close.

[Dzra]

dont forget soldier of fortune

+1 for this man and going deep.


Like what does your Torpor Orb do if all the Goblins decks are running Piledrivers and Chieftains as their back up to disruption plan? What does it do vs a Lackey and beat downs?

This is the real issue here. Goblin Recruiter is similar to Survival in that it gives a deck that is already very powerful and resilient on its own the ability to combo kill on t2. It is even better than Survival in that it doesn't rely on the Graveyard at all and has access to Cavern (and Vial) to make things uncounterable. It is better than other combo decks because if your combo is somehow disrupted then you still have a very powerful creature deck as a secondary line. It is better than other aggro decks because it has the ability to combo kill. It'd be like Stifling TES's Tendrils of Agony, but their Rituals and Chrome Moxes all happen to be 2/2 creatures.

[Julian23]

If only such a deck already existed in Legacy.. http://www.section.at/img/smiley/elf.gif

[Hof]

Of course you do not automatically win against goblins by packing a Torpor Orb in your 75. I apologize if my earlier remark could be read that way.

I do know a thing or two about playing Goblins. Some people in this thread, it seems, do not. Torpor Orb might not see much play in the metagame, because its useful applications are too few as things are now. But if you think that Goblins can just laugh at Torpor Orb and turn goblins sideways, then you have no idea how goblins work. Goblins is not a very strong aggro beatdown deck (although it is possible to construct it as something of the sort). Goblin is a card advantage engine, and one of the most effective ones that exists in the format. Matron tutors for Ringleader about 80% of the time, because that is how the deck wins most of the time.


Like what does your Torpor Orb do if all the Goblins decks are running Piledrivers and Chieftains as their back up to disruption plan?
I would say it does a lot. It makes sure that you can easily take out the few Chieftains and Piledrivers that the goblin deck draws into naturally with your Lightning Bolts and Tarmogoyfs, or whatever you run.


What does it do vs a Lackey and beat downs?
You are supposed to answer Lackey on turn 1, not on turn 2. Torpor Orb would be in addition to any answer you pack against Lackey (and other creatures that require a turn 1 answer) not a replacement.


What does it do if it's not in your opener?
Nothing. Seems like a universal truth. See line 1 of this post.


what does it do if you are on the draw?
I will admit that it might be too slow against a Recruiter on the draw. I am not sure. Consider this: Goblins on the play. Nothing happens on turn 1 (or a Lackey, bolt exchange). Then on turn 2, goblin plays Recruiter, not expecting to see Torpor Orb. Lets assume a Food Chain in hand also that the goblin player plans to cast next turn. How would he stack the top of the deck?


What does it do when you draw multiples?
Not much, but it does add some resilience against destruction. I don't think I would ever play more than 1, though. The Legacy metagame does not allow that, which is a good thing.

And finally, no, sorry, but Goblins is NOT a powerful and resilient deck in todays Legacy metagame.
It might be a reasonable choice for an experienced pilot in a control heavy meta, other than that, it is clearly tier 2 at best.

[Dice_Box]

but the reason you aren't getting anything but dismissive comments is that your whole position of Topor Orb being a legitimate hate piece is beyond laughable.Man this is so flawed. We would lose: Siege Gang, half of Mogg War Marshal, our decks tutor and the decks draw engine.


Like what does your Torpor Orb do if all the Goblins decks are running Piledrivers and Chieftains as their back up to disruption plan?Not all decks run Chieften and Piledriver is offten the first card sided out of the deck. If you are playing against a deck that has things to block him with he is useless as a draw. He is there for combo matches, thats about it. Fact is the common number of Drivers is 2 these days and only because thats the minimum we can get away with.


What does it do vs a Lackey and beat downs? Far too much. What use is Lackey when all you can drop is a 2/2 with a sac effect that use to come into play with tokens. Suddenly the decks best play is just another body on the field and not even a strong one at that. Lackeys power comes from what he drops, if you cut the balls off the threats, lackey is all bark, someone elses worthless bite.


What does it do if it's not in your opener? what does it do if you are on the draw? What does it do when you draw multiples?You play out your deck as you would any other deck without your hate hate card. What do you do if you do not have Grave hate in your opener and your against Dredge? You play on.


There are a million scenarios where the Orb doesn't do anything to keep you from just losing slightly slower. In your best case scenarios it still doesn't come close to stopping them from winning the game.Likely there are. But if your talking strictly Goblins, Orb is a painful card. I would say its almost the same as playing Grafdigger's Cage against Dredge or Cursed Totem against Elves.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Likely there are. But if your talking strictly Goblins, Orb is a painful card. I would say its almost the same as playing Grafdigger's Cage against Dredge or Cursed Totem against Elves.

Grafdigger's Cage makes it near impossible for Dredge to win while it's in play unless they have already amassed an army.

Cursed Totem turns like 90% of the elves that see play into vanilla 1/1's whether they are in play already or have yet to be played.

Orb doesn't effect any of the Goblins which are already in play, if Recruiter was unbanned in 50% of games they'd be on the play and thus able to drop him and stack the deck before you could drop Orb, in reality the stats are even worse because they are running 4x Recruiter and you are obviously not running 4x Orb (I hope). Orb doesn't affect Warchief, Driver, Lackey, Krenko, Sharpshooter, Incinerator, etc and it only shuts off half of War Marshal. That is why people are making fun of those saying Orb makes Recruiter fair or OWNS Goblins or whatever. It's very little like dropping Totem vs. Elves or Cage vs. Dredge.

[Dice_Box]

You saying that is making me think you have not played the deck. What use is your one off Krenko or Sharpshooter when you can not fetch them. Fun fact, Sharpy is often in the side to start with. Warchief is great, but your not mass drawing off Ringleader so his use is limited. The card does a lot to goblins. Period. Its not laughable. I have played against it when someone was running one in a Stifle Naught deck and it ate me. Is it the be all and end all answer? No. It is something to laugh at? Only if you have no understanding of goblins and think that the deck is just a beatdown deck.

Funny thing. I play Goblins and a mate of mine at my card shop plays Fish. We have a joke that I play a red deck that is blue and he plays a blue deck that is red. See if you can understand the point of that joke, because if you can't I would suggest reading a bit more on how Golbins actually win games.

[DragoFireheart]

Funny thing. I play Goblins and a mate of mine at my card shop plays Fish. We have a joke that I play a red deck that is blue and he plays a blue deck that is red. See if you can understand the point of that joke, because if you can't I would suggest reading a bit more on how Golbins actually win games.

You use blue sleeves and he uses red sleeves?

[Dice_Box]

No, my sleeves are black. The joke is about the decks themselves.

[danyul]

Drago knows. He was trolling for lulz.

I think you were misunderstanding dontbiteitholmes. He was discussing the merits of Torpor Orb vs Recruiter unbanning. You started going at him about how Goblins works. I'm sure he knows how it works. You guys just starting communicating at each other on different wavelengths. It's like watching two Modern decks bash past each other rather than against each other.

[menace13]

Some one once used an Orb against me and backed it up with a Dreadnought, So I lost. It hurts, that's how I know It's good.

Torpor coming from a Dreadnought deck is perfectly fine against Goblins, and DnT, I guess Snappy, SFM decks too. Thats about the only deck that would play it anyway if it were to be played. Maybe slight SB slot in Mav, Merfolk, Bant or Jund. All I can think off head. playing orb go vs 4-6 power of attackers on board every turn makes that Orb lackluster in most other decks. Like, Needle vs Survival. Yeah, it stops Survival the card, but the deck contiues on to do what it was going to do anyway, beat you down.

And If say Recruiter did get unbanned, and everyone was running Torpor Orb. What stops Goblins from boarding in Noughts :p

[Dice_Box]

I know it is good against goblins for more reasons that a deck that was running naught. But hey, thanks for twisting my words.

I never said Orb was the be all and end all of sideboard tec, only that it works in this situation. Fuck if all you're worried about is the activation of one goblin then go stifle. If you want to fuck the deck go with Orb. Is orb the better choice against the rest of the meta? No, but that does not change the fact that it is nuts against goblins.

As for what would stop me from running naughts? I would think that the reason would be because I want more Art hate in that slot. Because if Orb became a NEEDED card, then I think we would see a situation like what we have now. Where people run the deck that suits it best. As we have seen with painter and Moon. Still I like the thought.

[LeoCop 90]

What no one said until now is that food chain goblins would have to hit at least three mana sources to be able to cast food chain and the stack the deck with recruiter. There would be many scenarios in which you don't have both recruiter and food chain in hand, or you have both but you don't have the mana needed immediately. After all, it would just be a 2 card combo that is not tutorable in any way, like painter can't tutor for grindstone. The upside would be cavern of souls that makes recruiter uncounterable, but food chain could be countered anyway.

In my opinion, food chain combo goblins would just be a worse deck than vial goblins. If you play food chain, you have to cut vial, you simply can't afford to play both. And cutting vial would decrease a lot of goblins potential as an aggro deck. i think you should just focus too much on the combo win to be competitive, and probably other combo decks are just better in that because at least thay have protection.

What i would do if recruiter was unbanned would just continue playing my vial goblins list and fit in 1 goblin recruiter, so that at any moment of the game, against non combo decks and when i hit enough manasources, i could just tutor for recruiter with matron and then stack my deck and gain an absurd advantage on the opponent because i would draw only useful cards for the rest of the game. Probably this is the scenario that might not make safe the unban of recruiter, because goblins would just almost always win against any midrange/control deck.... food chain goblins instead doesn't seem a threat for legacy in my view.

[(nameless one)]

I remember back in extended, there was a pile involving Skirk Prospector, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief and Goblin Piledrivers that can win you the game.

Alternatively, you can also do Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki and Skirk Prospector for an infinite damage combo. It involves a lot of mana but I'm pretty sure, it can be facilitated in the late game.

I mean how would you build a Goblin deck if Recruiter was legal?

23 lands (Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Mountain, Madblind Mountain, Fetchlands)

24 Goblin core (Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Matron, Warchief, Ringleader)

3 Mogg War Marshall
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Recruiter
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Lightning Crafter

The list is so tight. Is it going to be consistent? The deck has minimal removal.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I mean how would you build a Goblin deck if Recruiter was legal?

2 Goblin Recruiter

Ummm, really?

In every format Recruiter has been legal that's the first time I've ever seen anyone even consider running less than 4 in a Goblins deck.

[Lemnear]

I have no clue why everyone still thinks Goblin Recruiter would still need Food Chain today after all these new and insane Goblins like Kiki-Jiki, Krenko, Lightning Crafter, Tarfire and many others saw print, which offer 2/3-card-combos within the creature type, bit newer had the chance to play alongside Recruiter.

I rather think you wanna drop Vial if Recruiter was legal and play Warren Instigator instead.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Madblind Mountain
Huh? Until now I never heard about this card... :eek:
I'd love if someone tried the Recrutier Goblins on MWs against Legacy gauntelt and then shared the results. It'll be very interesting.
Also, I think I may start hoarding the Recruiter. It has pretty nice illustraton and amazing flavour text, so at least I'll have a pretty collection...

[LeoCop 90]

In every format Recruiter has been legal that's the first time I've ever seen anyone even consider running less than 4 in a Goblins deck.

Do you realize that recruiter is a very clunky card ? as i already said you need to have a lot of mana available if you want to stack your deck, so having more than one recruiter in opening hand is not so good. 4 recruiters are only good in a combo focused deck that need to only hit 3 mana and food chain.... but, as i already said before, a goblin combo deck would just be worse than vial goblins and also worse than other combo decks.


I have no clue why everyone still thinks Goblin Recruiter would still need Food Chain today after all these new and insane Goblins like Kiki-Jiki, Krenko, Lightning Crafter, Tarfire and many others saw print, which offer 2/3-card-combos within the creature type, bit newer had the chance to play alongside Recruiter.

I rather think you wanna drop Vial if Recruiter was legal and play Warren Instigator instead.

I agree that food chain would be a bit obsolete (although it is the only enabler for a very fast combo with recruiter). I don't really agree with dropping vial instead... it is a huge mana source and as i said you need lots of mana to use recruiter properly. Stacking your deck with ringleader on top and vial at 4 is very explosive, having to play your ringleader by tapping lands is quite slow.

Warren instigator hasn't seen a lot of play in goblin decks since now because on paper it looks amazing, but in reality he almost never get the job done. Connecting with him is far more difficult than connecting with lackey ( and also connecting with lackey is not so simple).

[(nameless one)]

I personally do not want to draw an early Recruiter outside of Combo because stacking your deck without a guaranteed protection against removal sucks.

Dealing 21 damage isn't that hard to pull off in turn three if none of your Piledrivers are getting blocked or removed.

You wanna topdeck a Recruiter late game against Midrange or Aggro so you can stack up the Kiki-Jiki+Lightning Crafter+Prospector win.

[Anusien]

You don't have to stack your whole deck. You could always just put Ringleader and 4 Goblins to draw. And if you don't have enough lands, you could just hold it until you do.

[Dice_Box]

Lands? Meh, Prospector and Mogg War Marshal. If I can stack my deck I will put a bunch of MWM on top and make the mana I need as I need it. Not a perfect answer, but thats what Krenko is for.

[Lemnear]

Warren instigator hasn't seen a lot of play in goblin decks since now because on paper it looks amazing, but in reality he almost never get the job done. Connecting with him is far more difficult than connecting with lackey ( and also connecting with lackey is not so simple).

I doubt Instigator is that bad if you can stack Tarfires and Gempalm Incinerator on Top of your deck

[(nameless one)]

You don't have to stack your whole deck. You could always just put Ringleader and 4 Goblins to draw. And if you don't have enough lands, you could just hold it until you do.

That's what I'm trying to imply. A pile of Warchief, Ringleader, Prospector and three Piledrivers can win you the game but it's not always the right pile. The game has changed so the uses of Recruiter isn't the same. Lackeys aren't the same "let's ban it" creature.

[Dice_Box]

The wonderful thing is the use of Gempalm as removal and card draw, you really have only to deal with Mana as your limiting factor. With Prospector Mana becomes far simpler to find.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Do you realize that recruiter is a very clunky card ? as i already said you need to have a lot of mana available if you want to stack your deck, so having more than one recruiter in opening hand is not so good. 4 recruiters are only good in a combo focused deck that need to only hit 3 mana and food chain.... but, as i already said before, a goblin combo deck would just be worse than vial goblins and also worse than other combo decks.


I personally do not want to draw an early Recruiter outside of Combo because stacking your deck without a guaranteed protection against removal sucks.

Dealing 21 damage isn't that hard to pull off in turn three if none of your Piledrivers are getting blocked or removed.

You wanna topdeck a Recruiter late game against Midrange or Aggro so you can stack up the Kiki-Jiki+Lightning Crafter+Prospector win.

So glad you guys are smarter than everyone who has ever built a winning Goblin deck with Recuiter legal, because they all used 4x. With zero playtesting too, wow so pro.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

wow


such gobe

wow

[TsumiBand]

To a certain extent I prefer empirical evidence over guessing and pissing and moaning, but (a) people used to actually play Gobvantage/Food Chain Goblins and have a sense for its power level already (b) even if no one had, it's hard to understate the value of a 2-mana creature that can't be countered (Cavern of Souls, Aether Vial, Lackey, whatever) and casts as many Vampiric Tutors as you see fit.

I mean I'm all for sleeving it up and giving it a spin, but as mentioned, even without Food Chain it's not like it's hard to go stupid with all the tricks Goblins already has available. Prospector with Warchief onboard turns Mogg War Marshall into Dark Ritual. A lot of the good Goblins can, with multiple Warchiefs or similar Gobs in play, reduce down to the harsh casting cost of :R:. Even conceptually, a deck that can stack itself and then cast a bunch of Dark Rituals is problematic, right?

[Dice_Box]

I still own a almost complete Food chain deck. I have taken the lands out of it to use elsewhere and the Piledrives have changed decks. The rest is still together in a box. I play that deck still in Vintage, its not great locally in vintage but it holds its own. Also I like goblins and I have not the money nor the care to buy power. Recruiter is not safe, the reason is not the combo, the reason is that you can pick your draws in a way every blue player dreams of. I can, with Warchief and Krenko alongside Prospector do crazy things. Understand this, the deck has a way to make mana with goblins. Food Chain rocks, but it is not the be all and end all.

Also, this would help the deck gain traction:
http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Commune-with-the-Gods-Theros-Spoiler.jpg

The last thing to think about is even if you stop the combo, stifle the Recruiter and Extract it from my deck, I still have a very strong beatdown deck next to me. Thats the important thing to take from this, even if you stop the combo, or I do not get the combo, I am still able to hold my own and put you on one hell of a clock.

I want to see Goblins back to the force they once were but I do not want to see this.

[LeoCop 90]

So glad you guys are smarter than everyone who has ever built a winning Goblin deck with Recuiter legal, because they all used 4x. With zero playtesting too, wow so pro.

You are talking about like 10 years ago man.....

No i didn't playtest it and i'm not willing to do it, but i play goblins in every format, even edh where i use recruiter. And fact is that in edh i lost some games where i cast him. Is not like goblins can have an answer to everything, and you can stack only goblins. Everyone here argue that you can do broken things with all the goblins that got printed during years, but it's not like other decks are not doing broken things.

I just have the gut feeling that goblin food chain combo wouldn't be broken at all, but, as i already stated, the unbanning would not be safe because goblin would become almost unbeatable for midrange/control.

[Anusien]

If you have Goblin Warchief and Skirk Prospector out, each Mogg War Marshall makes +2 mana. I wonder if you could make a compact Piledriver kill with that little mana.

[Amon Amarth]

My .02 cents.

I think the best way to abuse Goblin Recruiter is in a modified Goblins shell. I'd run a green splash for Food Chain in the sideboard and stick with Aether Vial in the MD. I'd run Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb to accentuate the combo aspect of the deck while actually being perfectly fine if you're just playing dudes. I'd keep Wasteland but drop Ports. I'm not sure about the Kiki-Crafter combo since the deck never really needed an actual combo, Goblin Piledriver does the job good enough by himself. That being said, a compact, easy combo that only takes up two slots, Skirk Prospector is an auto-include, is pretty rad.

The Food Chains come in against decks where speed is really important, every combo deck basically. I think you want to strike a balance between the Aggro/Combo-ness of the deck. You can't search up your combo cards and there isn't much protection you can play that's not REB. So if you try to combo out and get disrupted it can be disastrous. And, honestly, Goblins has one of the best card advantage engines in Legacy and Recruiter turns it up to eleven. The only way most creature decks can actually beat you is if they disrupt you long enough while beating down with big guys before you get enough mana to overwhelm them (Jund, midrange decks in general) or be faster (Elves). Recruiter solves both of those problems.

"Show and Tell resolves. Oh, you have Griselbrand? All I have is this silly green enchantment"

I have never gotten around to testing Brightstone Ritual but it's something to consider too.

Whether or not Recruiter is actually "safe" enough to be unbanned is debatable. It's one of the few creatures that is still banned in the modern era of Magic, that is very telling. What I think most people seem to be agree on though is that it makes Goblins one of the best decks in the format, if not the best. Would it make other creatures decks unviable? Probably. It would shake up the format quite a bit but that's something I'm all for. To me, Legacy is a format where you can play old, powerful cards not fit for play in non-Eternal formats. I want to see a few crazy cards like Recruiter come off the banned list. But we'll probably never see it. Look how long it took them to unban Land Tax and most people knew it was terrible. Hell, Mind Twist is still on there.

It's also worth noting that Recruiter wasn't banned for logistical reasons it was banned because it was broken.

[Dark Ritual]

Even before cavern recruiter was probably way too OP. With cavern? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Okay so the best control deck is goblins since it has the best draw engine. Its also the best aggro deck in that it can turn 4 kill you by going turn 2 recruiter, turn 3 skirk prospector, turn 4 ringleader drawing warchief, driver x3, cast all of them, swing. It also has the best combo due to recruiter into food chain into ringleader being the game right there when you start chaining together your entire deck. It would be just like survival only it would be red instead of green.

Torpor orb, keeping recruiter all day long don't make me laugh. If orb became a problem ever goblins would adapt with ease with goblin tinkerer or other artifact destruction or just smacking you in the face with piledrivers. Turn 1 lackey is still a thing too.

I don't want to see recruiter unbanned ever. 1R: Stack my deck. That's a fair magic card right there.

[Dan Turner]

I just have the gut feeling that goblin food chain combo wouldn't be broken at all, but, as i already stated, the unbanning would not be safe because goblin would become almost unbeatable for midrange/control.


I am reading this here and your contradicting yourself. You state its not broken but then state its unbeatable.


Recruiter is so over powered and busted it is not funny, legacy does not need that kind of power. I play goblins almost exclusively and as much as I would love a recruiter unbanning there is no way in hell. Goblins have more inter cohesion than almost any other deck other than Elves currently, it is already one of the few decks that could do well with almost any opening hand.

[LeoCop 90]

I am not contradicting myself... i repeated it already three times in this thread. I don't think that the combo with recruiter and food chain is broken, because it can't be protected and is slower than other combos played in legacy. In fact i also stated that i won't probably play food chain if recruiter was unbanned.

I think that the unbanning is not safe because if you stack your deck with recruiter any midrange and control deck can't beat you, you are going to outdraw them. Goblins could be beat just by combo decks and very very aggro decks (burn) that kill you before you get to chain ringleaders into all the goblins you stacked on top.


I agree with amon amarth... probably food chain would be in sideboard, ready to be brought in just against combo decks to try to race them.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I am not contradicting myself... i repeated it already three times in this thread. I don't think that the combo with recruiter and food chain is broken, because it can't be protected and is slower than other combos played in legacy. In fact i also stated that i won't probably play food chain if recruiter was unbanned.

I think that the unbanning is not safe because if you stack your deck with recruiter any midrange and control deck can't beat you, you are going to outdraw them. Goblins could be beat just by combo decks and very very aggro decks (burn) that kill you before you get to chain ringleaders into all the goblins you stacked on top.


I agree with amon amarth... probably food chain would be in sideboard, ready to be brought in just against combo decks to try to race them.

The sad truth is you would probably need to put Food Chain in the sideboard at the very least just to be able to beat all the other Goblin decks.

[TsumiBand]

The sad truth is you would probably need to put Food Chain in the sideboard at the very least just to be able to beat all the other Goblin decks.

Fuck that, with all the Goblins in play Blasphemous Act is a one-drop solution to the whole format.

I could have sworn that this was one of those "what-if" cards that someone tested and wrote an article about a few years back.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Fuck that, with all the Goblins in play Blasphemous Act is a one-drop solution to the whole format.


Needs moar Repercussion

[TsumiBand]

Needs moar Repercussion

You sir have provided me with technology!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FIMvSp01C8

...for EDH lulz. Not for Legacy.

Still though I saw that card in my bin the other day and I was all "eww, the eff do i do with this jank" NOW I KNOW

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Tbh, I found it somewhere on web. "Silliest play" thread or anything similar. Maybe it was on Salvation.
Also, the moment they unban Recruiter, I'd order many hundreds of Soldier of Fortune and then resell them after they skyrocket.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Still though I saw that card in my bin the other day and I was all "eww, the eff do i do with this jank" NOW I KNOW

Repercussion is outstanding in Red EDH. Combine it with things like Furnace of Rath or Gratuitous Violence for maximum lulz.

On topic, I'd rather never see Recruiter come off the ban list even if there were sufficient answers printed in some hypothetical future. Do we really need to completely extirpate "aggro" (yes, I know the Little Green Men isn't really a pure aggro deck but is one of the closest things left in Legacy) from the format? I'd rather not.

[Amon Amarth]

Fuck that, with all the Goblins in play Blasphemous Act is a one-drop solution to the whole format.

I could have sworn that this was one of those "what-if" cards that someone tested and wrote an article about a few years back.

I couldn't find anything with my Google-Fu, if it even exists. All I could find were some terrible B/R articles that I wish I never read.