[Developmental] GW Trinity Order

[eetu]

Well hello guys this is my 2nd post here, but im sure i have something good for you all here.

Introduction

I have been playing magic for a long time now (since tempest came out), i stopped in 2006 (got robbed and lost almost all my cards), and i came back to play in 2010, so far im all in, and Legacy is where im at.

So why the heck am i telling all this?.. well in those years i remember playing with and against a deck called Trinity Green which to me was... just so elegant to me, i mean really Mono Green Control?.. wow.. awesome. I have played tons of decks and mostly i only play my own builds so i started tinkering with the idea of reviving this deck for Legacy this year.

so without further adue...


Proto deck list

TRINITY GREEN year 2k

Lands
14 Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/forest)
4 Gaea's Cradle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gaea's%20Cradle)
4 Rishadan Port (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rishadan Port)

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise (http://deckbox.org/mtg/birds of paradise)
3 Blastoderm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/blastoderm)
4 Deranged Hermit (http://deckbox.org/mtg/deranged hermit)
4 Llanowar Elves (http://deckbox.org/mtg/llanowar elves)
3 Masticore (http://deckbox.org/mtg/masticore)
4 Priest of Titania (http://deckbox.org/mtg/priest of titania)
4 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rofellos, llanowar emissary)
4 Skyshroud Poacher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/skyshroud poacher)

Spells
4 Plow Under (http://deckbox.org/mtg/plow under)
4 Tangle Wire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/tangle wire)

Sideboard
1 Blastoderm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/blastoderm)
2 Dust Bowl (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dust bowl)
4 Fallow Earth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/fallow earth)
1 Masticore (http://deckbox.org/mtg/masticore)
4 Simian Grunts (http://deckbox.org/mtg/simian grunts)
3 Splinter (http://deckbox.org/mtg/splinter)

Thoughts

The Elf & MAsticore package here is really not what we look for these days, same for blastoderm.
I must say i tried to make plow under woek and it was game for some matches but not really great overall and pretty bad on some others, so at least in the current meta is not good, so what i keep from this list is:

Gaea's Cradle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/gaea's cradle)
Rishadan Port (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rishadan port)
Birds of Paradise (http://deckbox.org/mtg/birds of paradise)
Llanowar Elves (http://deckbox.org/mtg/llanowar elves)
Deranged Hermit (http://deckbox.org/mtg/deranged hermit)
Tangle Wire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/tangle wire)

As for the rest of the cards well.. we have so many options now so...

Cards to Consider

Well this is 2013 so there are tons of options here so for starters:

Green Sun's Zenith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/green sun's zenith)
Noble Hierarch (http://deckbox.org/mtg/noble hierarch)
Eternal Witness (http://deckbox.org/mtg/eternal witness)
Tarmogoyf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/tarmogoyf)
Primeval Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/primeval titan)
Sylvan Library (http://deckbox.org/mtg/sylvan library)
Natural Order (http://deckbox.org/mtg/natural order)
Thespian Stage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thespian stage)
Dark Depths (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dark depths)
Crop Rotation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/crop rotation)
Trinisphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/trinisphere)
Chalice of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/chalice of the void)
Garruk Wildspeaker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/garruk wildspeaker)
Elvish Spirit guide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/elvish spirit guide)
Ancient Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/ancient tomb)
City of Traitors (http://deckbox.org/mtg/city of traitors)
Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/wasteland)
Chrome Mox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/chrome mox)
Dryad Arbor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dryad arbor)
Thragtusk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thragtusk)
Bellowing Tanglewurm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/bellowing tanglewurm)
Fauna Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/fauna shaman)
Thrun, the Last Troll (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thrun, the last troll)
Spike Weaver (http://deckbox.org/mtg/spike weaver)

I tried to build a kind of trinity stax deck with all this, i really tried to make it work.. and in the end i came up with this list that i posted appropriately in the Green Stax Section here in The Source.

Decklist #01
Lands
4 Ancient Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/ancient tomb)
3 City of Traitors (http://deckbox.org/mtg/city of traitors)
1 Dryad Arbor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dryad arbor)
8 Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/forest)
2 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/wasteland)

Creatures
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/bellowing tanglewurm)
1 Deranged Hermit (http://deckbox.org/mtg/deranged hermit)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/elvish spirit guide)
2 Eternal Witness (http://deckbox.org/mtg/eternal witness)
1 Fauna Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/fauna shaman)
1 Primeval Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/primeval titan)
1 Progenitus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/progenitus)
1 Spike Weaver (http://deckbox.org/mtg/spike weaver)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/tarmogoyf)
1 Thragtusk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thragtusk)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thrun, the last troll)

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/chalice of the void)
4 Chrome Mox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/chrome mox)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/garruk wildspeaker)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/green sun's zenith)
3 Natural Order (http://deckbox.org/mtg/natural order)
2 Sylvan Library (http://deckbox.org/mtg/sylvan library)
4 Trinisphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/trinisphere)

Well i must say, it doesnt play awful, but it didnt impressed me, and i believe this was all for the fact that trinisphere and chalice arent great in this meta..(damn abrupt decay is so good).
So i change my way of thinking and my conclusion was that i needed some other options that wasnt really on green. The best suited color for this is White of course so i considered tons and tons of cards and ways to go with this. But the fact is that almost all of them conflicted with the chalice and trinisphere plan.. i could leave the trinisphere in but in testings i decided to cut it in favor of the card that i liked the most in the proto list.. Tangle Wire.

Card Choices White

Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/swords to plowshares) We need Removal period.
Qasali Pridemage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/qasali pridemage) Same for enchantment and Artifact hate maindeck.
Noble Hierarch (http://deckbox.org/mtg/noble hierarch) Without trini or chalice this guy is a must.
Knight of the Reliquary (http://deckbox.org/mtg/knight of the reliquary) This guy is the nutz, fixer, beater, win condition and combo and defense enabler.

With the introduction to Knight to the strategy we can think of a land toolbox that doubles as win condition (bless the M14 legendary rule).

Card choices Lands

Maze of Ith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/maze of ith)
Thespian Stage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thespian stage)
Dark Depths (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dark depths)
Karakas (http://deckbox.org/mtg/karakas)
Gaea's Cradle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/gaea's cradle)
Rishadan Port (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rishadan port)
Dryad Arbor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dryad arbor)
Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/wasteland)
Savannah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/savannah)

So with all thisi came up with this.

The Deck

Lands
1 Dark Depths (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dark depths)
2 Gaea's Cradle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/gaea's cradle)
1 Maze of Ith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/maze of ith)
4 Rishadan Port (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rishadan port)
1 Thespian Stage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/thespian stage)
3 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/wasteland)
4 Windswept Heath (http://deckbox.org/mtg/windswepth heath)
1 Dryad Arbor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/dryad arbor)
1 Karakas (http://deckbox.org/mtg/karakas)
1 Savannah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/savannah)
1 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/plains)
5 Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/forest)

Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise (http://deckbox.org/mtg/birds of paradise)
2 Eternal Witness (http://deckbox.org/mtg/eternal witness)
3 Knight of the Reliquary (http://deckbox.org/mtg/knight of the reliquary)
4 Noble Hierarch (http://deckbox.org/mtg/noble hierarch)
2 Qasali Pridemage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/qasali pridemage)
1 Deranged Hermit (http://deckbox.org/mtg/deranged hermit)
1 Fauna Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/fauna shaman)
1 Progenitus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/progenitus)
1 Primeval Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/primeval titan)

Spells
4 Tangle Wire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/tangle wire)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/green sun's zenith)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/swords to plowshares)
1 Sylvan Library (http://deckbox.org/mtg/sylvan library)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (http://deckbox.org/mtg/sensei's divining top)
3 Natural Order (http://deckbox.org/mtg/natural order)

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity (http://deckbox.org/mtg/leyline of sanctity) vs discard, burn, belcher, nauseam
2 Rule of Law (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rule of law) vs Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/ad nauseam), Goblin Charbelcher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/goblin charbelcher), BUG shardless and etc combos...
2 Krosan Grip (http://deckbox.org/mtg/krosan grip) vs Counterbalance (http://deckbox.org/mtg/counterbalance), equipments etc...
1 Gaddock Teeg (http://deckbox.org/mtg/gaddock teeg) vs Force of will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/force of will), Miracles mostly...
1 Cataclysm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/cataclysm) For the surprise factor
3 Oblivion Ring (http://deckbox.org/mtg/oblivion ring) vs show & Tell (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Show%20and%20Tell) mostly overall good.
3 Ground Seal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/ground seal) vs Reanimator, Snapcaster mage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/snapcaster mage) decks, and Deathrite Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/deathrite shaman) (used to be rest in peace (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rest in peace) but its only better against Tarmogoyf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/tarmogoyf) decks and those are mostly not a problem)

The Sideboard really depends on your meta, in mine reanimator, show & tell and miracles are the only matches i care about.


How good is it?
I have played this deck in 4 Legacy Torunaments, the first 2 went bad but i must say i made a lot of mistakes, and besides those the only ting that troubled me was Humility (http://deckbox.org/mtg/humility), but hey that card wrecks almost all creature based decks right?. Besides that i lost against Dragon Stompy ( first turn Blood Moon (http://deckbox.org/mtg/blood moon)) thus i increased the basic lands, and i also lost against Reanimator so i increased the sb plan against it, still overall not a great match.

The 3rd and 4th Toruneys well.. I won those, they werent very big.. 20 to 25 people on those, but mostly meta Legacy Decks, and i know how the deck plays so i manage to win against.

Death and Taxes
BUG Shardless
Maverick
Bant
Miracles
4 color Young pyromancer
American Pyromancer
UB LAndstill
Affinity
Jund
Eva Green

I intentionaly Draw against Ad Nauseam and lost to:

Show & Tell
Elves
Miracles

FInal thoughts

The Combo Matchup is rough bt not impossible since we can race and sometimes win with progenitus or marit lage and tangle wire and the sb helps a lot with that plan. Still theres room to fix this.

So far the deck plays smooth and its a lot of fun to play, i hope you guys like my approach and get some input on it.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I find this deck to be interesting. It looks very similar to Maverick at first glance, but there are obviously some differences. It basically seems like it forgoes some of Maverick's utility creatures (Mother of Runes) for more hay-makers.

There a few things that kind of stick out to me when looking over the decklist (keeping in mind I've never played a game with or against this list). First, are the two Eternal Witness. It seems like one would be enough, since you're packing the full gambit of Green Sun's Zenith. I'd be inclined to cut the second witness for a 4th Knight of the Reliquary. But, you're only running 4 fetch lands, so I'm not sure the Knight is quite the beater that it tend tends to be in other somewhat similar decks.

I don't know how nuts I am about Deranged Hermit these days, though it seems like it'd be pretty solid with Tanglewire.

Speaking of Tanglewire...How good is this card right now? I can see it being pretty powerful if resolved against something like RUG Delver, since they play so few permanents.

Finally, it seems like there should be an Umezawa's Jitte somewhere in the 75.

I guess my first take analysis is that I don't necessarily see this list as being much better than a traditional Maverick list. That being said, it may be great metagame call. If your meta is really weak to Tanglewire and Natural Order into Progenitus, then this seems fine.

[eetu]

I find this deck to be interesting. It looks very similar to Maverick at first glance, but there are obviously some differences. It basically seems like it forgoes some of Maverick's utility creatures (Mother of Runes) for more hay-makers.

Got that right.


First, are the two Eternal Witness. It seems like one would be enough, since you're packing the full gambit of Green Sun's Zenith. I'd be inclined to cut the second witness for a 4th Knight of the Reliquary. But, you're only running 4 fetch lands, so I'm not sure the Knight is quite the beater that it tend tends to be in other somewhat similar decks.

Yes i see why you got to that conclusion, on paper it feels like you need the 4th knight and why the 2nd witness right?. To be honest the Knight here works more as a tutor than a beater he is the perfect decoy for swords, he brings marit lage, he enables gaeas cradle, or brings multiple rishadan ports.

So he is great so, why no 4th?.. well essentially you run 7 with the zeniths so there is really no need of an 8th here. You run only 4 fetchlands cause the land slots are really tight enough as it is but so far he is constantly an 8/8 if you want him to be.

As for the 2nd Eternal Witness, you guyessed it right it started as a 1 of, same as Qasali Pridemage, but man there are a lot of situations where you need 2 of those cards, re use STP via Witness, re use Qasali, or Tangle wire, even Wasteland or most of all... get back that piece of the combo that got in your graveyard for whatever reason.


I don't know how nuts I am about Deranged Hermit these days, though it seems like it'd be pretty solid with Tanglewire.

Speaking of Tanglewire...How good is this card right now? I can see it being pretty powerful if resolved against something like RUG Delver, since they play so few permanents.

Well yeah Hermit is awesome, it can beat, it enables crazy plays with gaeas cradle, it make syour tangle wire so much better (even though it doesn't need it).
Tangle wire is one of the best cards in the deck, really it buys you so much time and if you link tangle into tangle you have to draw very poorly to actually lose the game. RUG delver is actualy one of the best matches, you have so many threats and they cant counter everything.. you just have to be aware of stifle.


Finally, it seems like there should be an Umezawa's Jitte somewhere in the 75.

At some point i had 2 Jitte's on my SB, but i found them irrelevant for the most part i could just go for progenitus or Marit lage and win instead of worrying about little critters, although yeah there are some ties when i miss it (specially against mother of the runes), so maybe ill try to find a place for them.


I guess my first take analysis is that I don't necessarily see this list as being much better than a traditional Maverick list. That being said, it may be great metagame call. If your meta is really weak to Tanglewire and Natural Order into Progenitus, then this seems fine.

Well i know it seems like Maverick for some reasons, but it really doesn't play like it.. try it out and lemme know..

Thnaks for the reply.

[KazinMtg]

Looks like a lot of fun. I have a buddy who has been trying different things with maverick, and this seems right up his alley.

The 2 things that I thought of while looking at the deck was test aether vial, and possibly a sylvan safekeeper.

Vial would be great with port/tanglewire. Possibly cut gsz for them, but it would take some testing.

Safekeeper would be great if you keep gsz, as it can protect all your guys at once since you dont run mom. What we've found with extensive testing with safekeeper is you basically never have to actually sac land. Just him being out makes people hold back their removal, and he can always make a surprise giant swing with knight of the reliquary to end the game. I highly recommend him.

[eetu]

Looks like a lot of fun. I have a buddy who has been trying different things with maverick, and this seems right up his alley.

The 2 things that I thought of while looking at the deck was test aether vial, and possibly a sylvan safekeeper.

Vial would be great with port/tanglewire. Possibly cut gsz for them, but it would take some testing.

Safekeeper would be great if you keep gsz, as it can protect all your guys at once since you dont run mom. What we've found with extensive testing with safekeeper is you basically never have to actually sac land. Just him being out makes people hold back their removal, and he can always make a surprise giant swing with knight of the reliquary to end the game. I highly recommend him.

Hey man thanks for the input, although im not sure Aether vial is something to consider here unless we cut some mana dudes but we cannot do that because they help us with the natural order plan and they are fetchable via GSZ. Cutting the GZS would wreck the deck since it gives us ramp (via Dryad Arbor or any Mana dude), it gives us win conditions (Knight of the Reliquary, Primeval Titan), and fetches Bullets to help us protect our plan (Gaddock Teeg, Witness, Scavenging Ooze etc...).

I will defenitely try 1 sylvan safekeeper and i dont understand why i havent thought of the good old Olle Råde :).

[mini1337s]

Well, I typed out a huge long post about the rationals for the list I'm proposing, but the session timed out and I lost it.
So, here is what I propose:
Lands
1 Dark Depths (doesn't produce mana)
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith (doesn't produce mana)
1 Thespian Stage
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs / Gx Fetchland

Creatures
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierach
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg (necessary evil that can be pitched via Fauna Shaman)
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Progenitus

Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
3 Natural Order

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg (combo/miracles)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (for combo decks. Side out 4 Swords to Plowshares)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (combo)
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence (elves, maverick, jund, etc)
3 Oblivion Ring (show and tell)
2 Krosan Grip (miracles/equipment based decks)
1 Scavenging Ooze (graveyard based decks, goyf decks)

It cuts out some of the cuter cards for a more defined gameplan. If I didn't already spent 45 minutes typing up the post that disappeared, I'd breakdown the rationals for the cards, but it's all there.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It cuts out some of the cuter cards for a more defined gameplan. If I didn't already spent 45 minutes typing up the post that disappeared, I'd breakdown the rationals for the cards, but it's all there.
I though MTS autosaves posts...

It's interesting how the deck moved form 8Tomb Mono Green to GW Hate. But yes, Cradle seems more powerful than Sol lands.
I'm surprised you finf Jitte that little important, but well, Prog/Lage kills fast enough.
Although it doesn't cantrip, I think you should reconsider RIP, because contrary to GS, it's a live card against Exhume and PIF.

[Fatal]

Here is my NO-Maverick playtest list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Dark Confidant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Natural Order
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scrubland

//SB
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Creakwood Liege
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Abrupt Decay


SB is still very messy but MD is stable. Difference between those lists and upper ones - no Dark Depths / Stage combo - I found its little cluncky, I add more cheap creatures like mother of runes which works great as a protector and also gives power to Cradle - with 12+4 GSZ 1 mana drops Cradle gives always value.

Second interesting idea is adding Dark Confidant since we doesn't run too many life gains (Shamans, and Oozes are the only one) maybe it looks little risky specially with 2 8 mana bombs (Craterhoofs) but its not - If you count total cmc of all spells its still worth. NO gives disadvantage specially if met counter or other kind of disruption Confidants helps you feeding the hand after you played your cheap creatures.

Why I choose no other targets then Craterhoofs - bacause they're almost always enough to win the game (after about 50 games I never wanted to wish other target from NO then them).

[eetu]

Hey guys interesting takes.. ill check both approaches and place my inputs on them later.. :)..