UBx Dreadnought, Help me pick a 3rd color

[kingsey]

Hello Guys.

With all the enter the battlefield creatures being run, stoneforge, clique, flickerwisp, snapcaster, elves I think torpor orb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=torpor+orb&v=card&s=cname) could be very good at the moment.

With this card the 2 main creatures I wanted to use are Hunted horror (http://magiccards.info/query?q=hunted+horror&v=card&s=cname) and Phyrexian Dreadnought (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/280.html). I would run black for targeted discard. We only care to remove Swords to plowshares and abrupt decay. Because once on board those creatures trump everything else. The blue part of the deck would be even tho I hate this word " Tempo " package of Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, Wasteland. With the stifles doubling for our dreadnaughts.

My dilemma is one what color to splash or if a splash is needed at all.

If I go with red I gain Pyroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/213.html), Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/1.html), and Vexing Devil (http://magiccards.info/avr/en/164.html).

If we go with green we gain Deathrite shaman (http://magiccards.info/query?q=deathrite+shaman&v=card&s=cname), Abrupt decay (abrupt decay), Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html) and Berserk (http://magiccards.info/be/en/94.html) for the 1 shot kill.


Now I know all these creatures die to abrupt decay as well as the orb, but doesn't everything now die to decay? I'm looking forward to any input or a list you brew up. I'll be posting a green splash list later today.

[Kayradis]

I'd say Green.
Opens you to Varolz,Abrupt Decay,Golgari Charm and Shaman.
I've seen a couple BUG lists and they seemed quite good to be honest.
Dreadnought and Varolz together are a bit retarded since you can scavenge the Dreadnought for :1:

[Qweerios]

A friend of mine used white for Enlightened Tutor, StP, and Vindicate back in the days. He would play 2 Torpor Orbs and a Illusionary Mask with a couple of Tutors in the main. He has a pretty good SB lineup too since he used mainboard Tutors. Another interesting thing is that Abrupt Decay didn't exist back then and he only had to worry about StP (which was more popular than today). He dealt with it with CounterTop.

[AngryTroll]

Notice that Varolz, the Scar-Striped can regenerate through Abrupt Decay. You'd want Tarmogoyfs as well.

I tried playing BUG Dreadnoughts this last week. My list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

I liked having Inquisition and Daze to try and resolve a turn two Dreadnought. I found myself really wishing I had Ponders in the list somewhere to smooth out awkward draws. I would make room for two or three Ponders before playing this again.

[Pdingo]

Green for

Shaman
Tarmogoyf
Dark confidant
Phyrexian dreadnought

You don't need bad creatures cards like varolz and negator. They are to bad for legavy.
Add green for this aggro list.
Or red for a more controll list with grim and bolt.

[AngryTroll]

You don't need bad creatures cards like varolz and negator. They are to bad for legavy.

I think Varolz #1 is better than Torpor Orb against everything except Death and Taxes. If you want to run the full four Dreadnoughts, I'd strongly recommend running one or two cards in addition to Stifle to support them. It's a tossup between Varolz and Trickbind at that point, and I ran one of each. I could see a split of 2/0, 1/1, or 0/2 being fine.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I think Varolz #1 is better than Torpor Orb against everything except Death and Taxes. If you want to run the full four Dreadnoughts, I'd strongly recommend running one or two cards in addition to Stifle to support them. It's a tossup between Varolz and Trickbind at that point, and I ran one of each. I could see a split of 2/0, 1/1, or 0/2 being fine.

While Trickbind is nice as a 5th Stifle, Vision Charm works just as well on Dreadnought and costs one fewer mana. Trickbind is definitely a better card in the abstract, but unless you're running Deathrite Shaman, it won't let you play a turn 2 'nought.

There's another thread about this type of deck already, though I think it focuses on builds with Varolz. If you're going that route you can also consider Death's Shadow as an option.

My personal dilemma with this type of deck is that if you add the third color, it get's hard to support Force of Will, since you're already running 4 colorless cards (Dreadnoughts).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

While green brings Goyf, Decay, Grip and DRS, it also makes opposing Submerges live.
White is pretty good for StP, RiP and MoR.
Red brings nothing, imao. You don'T wanna twiddle Grim when you have two-turns clock. Pyroblast and Bolt, otoh...

[AngryTroll]

While Trickbind is nice as a 5th Stifle, Vision Charm works just as well on Dreadnought and costs one fewer mana. Trickbind is definitely a better card in the abstract, but unless you're running Deathrite Shaman, it won't let you play a turn 2 'nought.
I think Trickbind ends up being better than Vision Charm in playing as well as in the abstract. Vision Charm can save your Dreadnought from removal, but that's it's only other function. Trickbind makes your 12/12 uncounterable in addition to Stifling fetchlands, Deed, Top, etc.


There's another thread about this type of deck already, though I think it focuses on builds with Varolz. If you're going that route you can also consider Death's Shadow as an option.
I definitely wouldn't want to focus on Varolz. Running one as a mid- to late-game option instead of Trickbind seems pretty reasonable, but I don't think I'd want to run four and count on them to make Death's Shadow work.


My personal dilemma with this type of deck is that if you add the third color, it get's hard to support Force of Will, since you're already running 4 colorless cards (Dreadnoughts).
I ran into the same problem with the blue count.

[kingsey]

Decided to go with green. Going to run this list I think for tomorrows local

4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
1 swamp
4 wasteland
8 fetchlands

4 dreadnaught
4 hunted horror
4 deathrite shaman

3 duress
3 IoK
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 abrupt decay
4 daze

3 torpor orb

Ideal want to leader with shaman or duress, then turn 2 naught.

[Pdingo]

Main Discard is bad in a Temposhell.. Dont do that^^ The Only real Tempo Discard is Hymn 2 for 1.You wan't play a Iok in t1 when you have stifle in Hand or a shaman. You protect nought only with Counter. That's it.
A Tempo nouhgt list works like this: You don't Need a t2 Nought. That's no the plan. An oppenent can handle a nought easy^^ The Plan is to Tempo out your oppenent and win the game with a nought in two turns. You should play less discard and more Cantrips.

Haunted Horror? Are you kidding me? Bad Creature for bb(Hard to cast sometimes?) that doesn't end the game in 2 turns? You should play solid creatures like Goyf(Better beater and easyier to play or BoB(Card advange).
Torpor Orb a really slow Card that does not much. Timewalked yourself. Prefer Trickbind as a 1off or Vision charm(Works well with Tombstalker).

Sceneraio:

t1 Shaman/wasteland/Stifle(shaman get handled or counteret by removal)
t2 BoB/Hymn/maybe/Goyf, (Get handeld by a Counter or a removal)
t3 Nought(Now you have tempo out your oppenent, maybe he used a lot removal and Counter, because your on the Tempoplan.) and maybe you have still Counter back up)That's meen a safe Nought!
t4 Ponderr intoTarmogoyf or a BoB for Card advange.

My list that works very well in the Meta now with Decay too: (I think it's the best list now to play, better than the Ur dreadstill list's because standstill is not that good now.)

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Disfigure
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Vision Charm
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island

SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize (against Combo and Controll,stoneforge Mystic)
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Dread of Night

Other SB Options are:
Hymn, more disfigure, spell pierce and 4 Nimble Mongoose against every Controll and Tempo Deck.

Greets Dingo

[HammafistRoob]

No Delver? That's a huge mistake. He's the best Tempo creature there is.

[kingsey]

How would ur list look rob?

[Pdingo]

You don't Play Delver in a Nought List/When it isn't Ur. For a good Flip you have to Play 12 Creatures. I think 16 and 19-20Lands are to much for Delver.
I don't see any mistake there. He's not that good. We should follow my list.

Ur List:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Snare
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Misdirection
1 Mountain
1 Vision Charm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus

A classical Ur Dreadstill List.
But now she's not that good.

[HammafistRoob]

How would ur list look rob?

It's really tough for me to say this, but I think Dreadnought is past his heyday. Even in Dreadstill he has been very lackluster for me. Last time I played the deck I won almost all of my games off the back of Delver. Abrupt Decay is just an utter fisting and the meta is very hostile to everyones favorite 12/12. Now to throw out a random list since it doesn't use the threads namesake card.
EsperTempo

//LANDS-19
4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island

//CREATURES-11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

//EQUIPMENT-2
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

//REMOVAL-7
3 Disfigure
4 Swords to Plowshares

//BLUE SPELLS-21
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will


The list is definitely a little on the greedy side. 28 spells for Delver flips is a little lower than I usually like but it shouldn't be to big of an issue. There's a lot of options here like maybe Deathrite, Snapcaster, V.Clique, ect. but I'm not so sure they're need.
Disfigure is criminally under-played at the moment, I dunno why.

Sorry if this is way off topic here but I was asked for a list and I'm not sure I would bring Noughts to the big table anytime soon. Last time I played them they were super clunky and I was wishing I just played any other card instead.

[Tombstalker]

Hmm, do you even need to splash for the 3rd color? I think not. Staying straight UB solidifys your manabase and lets you focus on the tempo plan more. Heres some ideas keeping the decks curve ultra low like canadian with all evasive beaters and plenty of disruption:

4 Delver
4 Dreadnought
2 clique
2 Kira ggs

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 thoughtseize
1-2 vision charm (maybe 1 trickbind?)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

8 fetch
4 wasteland
4 sea
2 island
1 swamp

All cc1 except the 4 flyers (kira should at least be SB for decays), resistant to land destruction and can still access stuff like massacre and submerge while staying immune to submerge itself which I feel is huge just from feeling its effects vs my tombstalkers. 4 spots left for removal should be enough since your threats trump most others. Anyway just some ideas..

Edit- and of course you could always squeeze the omnipresent DRS in place of cliques.

[AngryTroll]

All cc1 except the 4 flyers (kira should at least be SB for decays), ...

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner does not stop Abrupt Decay. Your best bet against Abrupt Decay is probably Divert or leading with an Inquisition.

[Tombstalker]

Aw jeez I completely glossed that.. just got off work and im toast. Anyway kira does protect against most other forms of removal but between decay and liliana jund would be a problem. Not sure if shes really worth it now. Clique otoh is boss when cast T2 so maybe some DRS should make their way in afterall!

[HammafistRoob]

I like Vision Charm over Divert since it can't be played around in the mid-late game and also doubles as an enabler for Nought. Although it doesn't protect your other guys so it really depends on what you're aiming for. Divert also requires you to have another legal target on board, which is a pain sometimes.

[AngryTroll]

I like Vision Charm over Divert since it can't be played around in the mid-late game and also doubles as an enabler for Nought. Although it doesn't protect your other guys so it really depends on what you're aiming for. Divert also requires you to have another legal target on board, which is a pain sometimes.

I've never understood the love for Vision Charm. Once you have Nought in play, it's awesome, but without Nought Trickbind just seems better than Vision Charm and Torpor Orb.

Divert is much better without Dreadnought than Vision Charm, too.

I can start to see Vision Charm in the deck if you are using it to enable quick Tombstalkers or Nimble Mongeese.

[HammafistRoob]

V. Charm gets Nought into play or it protects him from Decay if your up against BGx. Against anything not playing Decay, Trickbind is strictly better. The thing is though, the BGx decks are usually the toughest matchups, and they're increasing in popularity. It's really a meta call I think but I'm not the biggest fan of Torpor Orb, and would never play it unless Goblins was taking over your meta.

Divert is cool and all, but it just isn't flexible enough imo and there will be matchups where it's completely dead. Having a handful of dead cards is really frustrating, and we already have cards that lose a ton of value on their own(Dread) or in the lategame(Daze, sometimes Stifle). Brainstorm can't fix everything, and I prefer the card that is a little more flexible than Divert. I do think that Divert is probably better against BGx decks, so the decision really warrants ample play testing and metagame prediction.