How is Swan Song doing?

[Star|Scream]

Just curious if people have been testing Swan Song out and how it's fairing in certain decks and against certain decks.

[Lemnear]

Just curious if people have been testing Swan Song out and how it's fairing in certain decks and against certain decks.

Crazy good in Miracles to fight Choke and push through your Terminus (hilarious) for the cost of not being able to counter stuff like Planeswalkers, Equipment and Pithing Needle. Awesome Lategame value.

In combo decks rather lame ... Flusterstorm is much better here and it also sux in Tempo (where Pierce is the best next to FoW and Daze).

So, the only application for this counter I found so far is control. A 2/2 Bird is nothing against Terminus or Angels.

[catmint]

Agree. Any fair deck is annoyed by the bird. miracles (essentially combo control) or other combo decks could play it. show for the mirror for example but in general fluster is often better in counterwars

[Erdvermampfa]

It sucks.

[Valtrix]

I'd rather just play regular old counterspell if I want a hard counter, or spell pierce/flusterstorm if I want a soft counter, at least in most fair decks. The 2/2 is a real drawback.

[Lemnear]

I'd rather just play regular old counterspell if I want a hard counter, or spell pierce/flusterstorm if I want a soft counter, at least in most fair decks. The 2/2 is a real drawback.

there is a difference in 1 or 2 mana to push through your S&T, Entreat or Jace (who can negate the drawback immediately) in turn 5+ with your opponent likely having mana available to pay for your Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm trying to protect your spells. Being able to target Blood Moon, Dream Halls, Choke, Counterbalance and more isn't irrelevant at all. You won't play Swan Song in any non-control/combo decks

Edit: Kinda hilarious that peeps rightfully complain that WotC's Design gets dumber and splashier over time and every moment a good card, which's power isn't overobvious, is printed everyone calls it crap. XD

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think it's solid. I agree with the Terminus analysis, better than Pierce in Miracles. I was going to up my Ponder count to 2, but this is better. You can even (with all your mana) mid to late game hard-cast a spell like a second RIP or CB and counter it to give yourself an evasive beater/blocker. I like it. You need an imagination to use it sometimes, but it can be quite the useful lil thing.

-ABC

EDIT: I think it may have some solid application in storm to an extent (where ADecay lacks), but I don't think it will catch on for a minute.

[Final Fortune]

It's been quite good in Show&Tell and Reanimator decks, marginal in High Tide decks and has a lot of applications in Modern U/W/R where the Bird is offset by Grim Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage, Isochron Scepter etc. Likewise it's probably either a MD or SB card in anything playing Terminus, Pernicious Deed or Natural Order where the bird gets trumped and it's pretty much a shoe in for Vintage.

[Tammit67]

It has been serviceable for me in Merfolk: Answers bolts/blasts/swords when needed and stops combo pretty well.

[Piceli89]

I'd rather just play regular old counterspell if I want a hard counter, or spell pierce/flusterstorm if I want a soft counter, at least in most fair decks. The 2/2 is a real drawback.

This, you can't give for granted that you'll always have the Terminus to counter SS' drawback, and Swan Song just sucks when you need to counter an early discard spell or Counterbalance. The only scenario where its drawback is arguably marginal is in combo decks like Spiral Tide, every other blue-based deck has enough tools that accomplish what Song tries to do, although less multi-purpose.

[Lemnear]

This, you can't give for granted that you'll always have the Terminus to counter SS' drawback, and Swan Song just sucks when you need to counter an early discard spell or Counterbalance. The only scenario where its drawback is arguably marginal is in combo decks like Spiral Tide, every other blue-based deck has enough tools that accomplish what Song tries to do, although less multi-purpose.

Please tell me how counterspell does anything against Hymn on the draw or their Turn 2 S&T/Ad Nauseam/etc.? It doesn't. In those situations I rather give them a 2/2. The only cards you can compare Song with are Pierce and Flusterstorm, but those are pretty dead in the mid-/lategame which you ALWAYS reach with Miracles.

If you use Swan Song to counter random stuff like discard (Cabal Therapy flashback lol) you deserve to loose to a 2/2 Bird. This counter serves the intelligent player.

I may remind you that StoP, Jace, Terminus, Venser and Entreat all negate Swan Song's drawback out of Miracles.

[HammafistRoob]

I wouldn't want to Swords the bird because that is terrible(except against creatureless decks), but I can definitely see Swan Song show up in Miracles builds with something like 4 Jace 3 Entreat 3 Terminus.

[Home]

A reanimator player cast it against my force of will, which I let resolve then flustered his reanimate spell and killed him with the token and a delver.

I still think it's an ok card, gotta be careful what you bring it in against though.

[Tammit67]

A reanimator player cast it against my force of will, which I let resolve then flustered his reanimate spell and killed him with the token and a delver.

I still think it's an ok card, gotta be careful what you bring it in against though.

So he was screwed anyway?

[ivanpei]

It's terrible in miracles. You don't always have terminus. And if yo. Counter an early hymn with swan song, you get 2 to the face everyturn.

Spiral tide won't play it because flusterstorm is better. Spiral tide needs flusterstorm to stop an opponents flusterstorm.

In short, swan song has zero applications in legacy.

[ceustice]

It's terrible in miracles. You don't always have terminus. And if yo. Counter an early hymn with swan song, you get 2 to the face everyturn.

Spiral tide won't play it because flusterstorm is better. Spiral tide needs flusterstorm to stop an opponents flusterstorm.

In short, swan song has zero applications in legacy.

I agree completely I'm already tired of hearing about this card. I don't think this card CURRENTLY has any implications in legacy and most likely will never have any.

[sdematt]

It's terrible in miracles. You don't always have terminus. And if yo. Counter an early hymn with swan song, you get 2 to the face everyturn.

Spiral tide won't play it because flusterstorm is better. Spiral tide needs flusterstorm to stop an opponents flusterstorm.

In short, swan song has zero applications in legacy.

I disagree, you just need to see the synergies.

I'm waiting until I get my Russian playset before I say where I've found it to be good.

-Matt

[apple713]

maybe you use it on your own copy of fluster storm? a 2/2 for 1 blue mana?

[sdematt]

maybe you use it on your own copy of fluster storm? a 2/2 for 1 blue mana?

lul

[alphastryk]

I disagree, you just need to see the synergies.

I'm waiting until I get my Russian playset before I say where I've found it to be good.

-Matt

Ok, I'll go on the record here - I've tested it in Miracles. It doesn't cut it, at all. Any situation this is better than the alternatives is very contrived and it isn't nearly as good in the long game as people are making it out to be. I'll stick with my Flusterstorm / Spell Pierce / Counterspell split.

It's definitely a good card and likely has a place in the future but not in current-day Miracles.

[sdematt]

Ok, I'll go on the record here - I've tested it in Miracles. It doesn't cut it, at all. Any situation this is better than the alternatives is very contrived and it isn't nearly as good in the long game as people are making it out to be. I'll stick with my Flusterstorm / Spell Pierce / Counterspell split.

It's definitely a good card and likely has a place in the future but not in current-day Miracles.

It has a home in a few niche decks that:

a) Need to counter certain Enchantments, instants, or sorceries that you just belly up and die to

b) Need a hard counter at low mana cost and don't care about the token that's already part of the game plan

c) the token is part of the game plan

-Matt

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

c) the token is part of the game plan


That is a gameplan I can get behind

[Phoenix Ignition]

c) the token is part of the game plan


Please bring back Defense of the Heart!

[sdematt]

Please bring back Defense of the Heart!

Or Oath of Druids...

-Matt

[thecrav]

Or Oath of Druids...


Big ol' cup of nope

[Piceli89]

Please tell me how counterspell does anything against Hymn on the draw or their Turn 2 S&T/Ad Nauseam/etc.? It doesn't. In those situations I rather give them a 2/2. The only cards you can compare Song with are Pierce and Flusterstorm, but those are pretty dead in the mid-/lategame which you ALWAYS reach with Miracles.

If you use Swan Song to counter random stuff like discard (Cabal Therapy flashback lol) you deserve to loose to a 2/2 Bird. This counter serves the intelligent player.

I may remind you that StoP, Jace, Terminus, Venser and Entreat all negate Swan Song's drawback out of Miracles.

You don't want to spend your resouces to get rid of drawbacks created by your own cards. You have to design your deck to be able to operate at maximum efficiency and give yourself the best amount of resources in any given scenario- especially since Miracles already has its problems due to being able to corrctly setup otherwise dead white cards in your hand.
You don't want to find games where you'll find yourself being forced to spend an additional Swords to Plowshares on the Bird token, or just to change the timing of your Terminus because you were already at a low life; similarly, you don't want to spend an entire turn of -1ing with Jace when you could have +0ed and thus gained a massive advantage.

Spell Pierce hits the card you mentioned and yes, it becomes a dead card in lategame, you're right; but, at that stage of the game, opponent's threats will be handled with the other diversified options Miracle has access to (hard Counterspell, Force of will, Counterbalance, and so on; for Show and Tell, post-board REBs, Flusterstorms, etc.). You don't need every card to be always consistent, as SP's function is just to stop problematic cards in specific windows of the game (early stages, and costy, harmful spells) and it's so tempo-friendly that it's worth to be played even if it sucks later on. Otherwise, we would all be playing 4 Counterspells and 4 Forces, wouldn't we? And then get raped by the speed of the format.

This is pretty much basic stuff to know in a format where you're swimming with sharks, I guess.

Definitely not a worthy MD card in Miracles; probably not even in the sideboard. I'll repeat myself: Bird drawback is negligible when you're not caring about board situation, i.e. combo. That's not the case of Control at all.
People below me are having the same feedback. If you want to stick with Swan Song, for me it's obviously fine.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The fact that it's such a large topic of debate on several threads in this forum is almost a boon to it's impending popularity. I foresee it to be a topic of discussion for weeks upon weeks to come. I think it will find it's home soon, and will be tested and found useful in at least 2 decks, maybe upwards.

It's good in the same way daze/stifle is: Certain decks only.

-ABC

[Final Fortune]

Anybody else liking it a lot post-SB in Reanimator?

[nevilshute]

This thread seems to have become focused on whether or not Swan Song is suitable for miracles. I think the card's home is in combo decks to protect their combo. A hard counter at 1 mana seems good.

A guy at my LGS is playing this as a 1 or 2 of in his mono blue omni deck. It seems like a quite viable home. Is it better than just running Flusterstorm? Not sure, but there are certainly corner cases. Does the bird matter? Not really.

It seems - like many others have pointed out - very lacklustre in tempo decks. Also seems a sideboard option at the very best for control decks to bring in against combo as an alternative to Flusterstorm which might not make much sense.

[flightx3aa]

Swan song is the best card ever in my thopter sword polymorph deck

[Lormador]

It seems - like many others have pointed out - very lacklustre in tempo decks.

It is such a hilariously catastrophic disaster in tempo that this alone possibly accounts for the card's unpopularity. Giving the opponent an evasive beater that trades with a Delver is an amusing way to 2-for-1 yourself, quite possibly taking some damage in the process.

[Lemnear]

Why you guys comment on a 30 month old thread?

[kirkusjones]

Why you guys comment on a 30 month old thread?

I think it has to do with the unstable nature of time. Their universe is currently rubbing elbows with ours, and through the magic of the internet, somehow their posts have crossed the thin membrane between realities and posted in our very old thread, while they believed they were responding in a timely manner in their own reality. Clearly this polymorph thopter sword deck is a tier 1 strategy in that universe. I am curious as to what their DTB forum looks like. Perhaps there are goblins.

[dsck]

Swang Song isnt great either when Cabal Therapy is fairly popular card right now.

[Lemnear]

Swang Song isnt great either when Cabal Therapy is fairly popular card right now.

Oh, I like it if my Therapy gets countered by Swan Song

[Di]

Three years, really?