[SCD] Waste Not

[wcm8]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/267ymtc

Waste Not
1B
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent discards a creature card, put a 2/2 black zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Whenever an opponent discards a land card, add BB to your mana pool.
Whenever an opponent discards a noncreature, nonland card, draw a card.

This is the end result of YMTC. People were originally fearful that this would end up as over-costed jank. At 1B it's well within the realm of possibility for eternal applications.

Obviously it 'combos' with Liliana of the Veil, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Smallpox etc.

Particularly interesting would be if you could figure out a way to chain it with stuff like Reforge the Soul, or perhaps Burning Inquiry.

[Phoenix Ignition]

This is the kind of stuff that gets made when players are given the chance?

Enchantments that require discarding just aren't good. Yuck.

[Lemnear]

1B for a card that does nothing on it's own and is worded "discard" instead of "put into the graveyard" IS overcosted jank...

[Wanderlust]

overcosted jank...


Enchantments that require discarding just aren't good. Yuck.

Wow are you guys ever impossible to please.

I think the card is, at the least, very interesting. 1B is a realistic mana cost, that made me happy to see. I'm going to try combining it Ill-Gotten Gains and Whispering Madness, throw in Dream Salvage for good measure, add some accelartion, and (not) waste a few minutes toying around with it. Sounds fun to me. Even if it's bad, it will have been an enjoyable thought experiment. What else can you ask for from a new card?

[Lemnear]

Wow are you guys ever impossible to please.

I think the card is, at the least, very interesting. 1B is a realistic mana cost, that made me happy to see. I'm going to try combining it Ill-Gotten Gains and Whispering Madness, throw in Dream Salvage for good measure, add some accelartion, and (not) waste a few minutes toying around with it. Sounds fun to me. Even if it's bad, it will have been an enjoyable thought experiment. What else can you ask for from a new card?

I' sorry if you can't understand our judgement based on Legacy's powerlevel. What I'm asking for? Cards what aren't a total joke compared to creature powercreep.

[evanmartyr]

It seems like a card that can only be actually good in specific matchups. Getting BB for ditching a land means that even if you spend your turn 2 dropping it, your turn three is going to result in them having an empty hand (at least in those decks like 8-rack in Modern that are basically discard spells and racks and not much else) or you're gonna draw a card or two and poop out a few zombies. The problem is, beyond using it as a conditional Lotus Bloom, it'll probably just sit there for the rest of the game doing nothing of importance or value unless you're playing dumb shit like Burning Inquiry.

[Vacrix]

Wow are you guys ever impossible to please.

I think the card is, at the least, very interesting. 1B is a realistic mana cost, that made me happy to see. I'm going to try combining it Ill-Gotten Gains and Whispering Madness, throw in Dream Salvage for good measure, add some accelartion, and (not) waste a few minutes toying around with it. Sounds fun to me. Even if it's bad, it will have been an enjoyable thought experiment. What else can you ask for from a new card?
There's a difference between 'impossible to please' and 'playing better cards and actually winning'. Wait.. no there isn't.

I've tried Dream Salvage to death. The card might be something's engine eventually but somehow I doubt it because it would be a fucking HOUSE in modern unless the deck absolutely needs cards from Legacy to function.

[Dreg]

This is an example of funny yet rather useless design. I fail to see how this card can be included in any of the current tiers without resulting less than optimal. The msot common suggestion i read around is "try it with Liliana". Yes, it is pretty boss in conjunction with lili, but in the end you realize it's just a win-more that drains up slots in your library. Lili is strong enough by herself, without other funny random card to turn her into an overkill. In addition, this card is an absolute dead draw, who benefits from other horrible topdecks., thus making the chance of drawing absolute shit in lategame substantially high. I cannot see any application of this card except for a build-around.

[JDK]

Fuck this, we could have had the red 2-drop. :mad:

[Barook]

This is the kind of stuff that gets made when players are given the chance?
Out of the submissions, we didn't choose the 8 finalist. You can bet your ass that were definitely better ideas among the player submissions we didn't get to see, like the tons of Necro variants which were completely ignored.

While the majority of the voting playerbase loves to go for retarded decisions, Wizards and only Wizards is to blame this time. When you can only choose between 8x crap, the result can only be a turd.

In the end, it's just a poor imitation of Primeval Bounty and whoever was responsible for choosing the cards deserves to be punched in the dick.

CoW was simple, yet a thing of beauty. An enchantment which alters the your possible plays would have been far more interesting, like a green enchantment that let's you cast a creature from your library whenever you search it (include limitations here). Instead, we got a wordy, useless clusterfuck while Maro will preach about elegance of design next week again.

@H3llsp4wn: Young Pyromancer

Edit: Considering that the card is a complete waste of card board, its name is kinda ironic.

[alderon666]

I like it for its combo potential, but the fact the deck would be crap everytime it didn't draw it/got it countered makes me kinda sad.

Just think about it:

Turn 1 Thoughtseize
Turn 2 Waste Not
Turn 3 Burning Inquiry, ????, Profit

Maybe we can incorporate it into the whole Ill-Gotten Gains + Dream Salvage thing.

4x Dark Ritual
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Dream Salvage
4x Waste Not
???

You're gonna have enough strong T1 plays to justify Dark Rituals and it's just nuts when you get to go off.

[Infinitium]

Want not. Having discard effectively provide +1 ca is pretty strong in itself, but not at the cost of your T2 play, and not when the opponent can circumvent it so easily by going hellbent.

[JDK]

@H3llsp4wn: Young Pyromancer
No. He is good, but not in a league with Goyf, Bob, Stoneforge and Snapcaster Mage.

[alderon666]

No. He is good, but not in a league with Goyf, Bob, Stoneforge and Snapcaster Mage.

Hey, Young Pyro might be good in the deck. It's good with Cabal Therapy and Smallpox (kinda).

Man, building around new cards is só hard. The bar is set so high it's kinda discouraging.

[Dice_Box]

This card is about 12 years too late to be useful. I think this in a Megrim deck would have been nuts. I mean you would not have gotten to use the mana it makes, but the other two options would have been great.

Also it would have combined wonderfully well with One with Nothing should they have said "When a player discards". Sigh.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[apple713]

When you consider that this card will be played exclusively with liliana of the veil it seems really good. If liliana was not printed it would probably be incredibly mediocre.

That being said its good to have something very powerful in modern. This isnt a card that will do much for legacy though. 2 card combos in legacy do much better things than this. In modern though it probably wont fit into jund and therefore will be obsolete cause modern is apparently Jund vs everything else...




I' sorry if you can't understand our judgement based on Legacy's powerlevel. What I'm asking for? Cards what aren't a total joke compared to creature powercreep.

"more cards with the power level of Deathrite Shaman".... I think thats where you were going with this. I completely agree.



Out of the submissions, we didn't choose the 8 finalist. You can bet your ass that were definitely better ideas among the player submissions we didn't get to see, like the tons of Necro variants which were completely ignored.

While the majority of the voting playerbase loves to go for retarded decisions, Wizards and only Wizards is to blame this time. When you can only choose between 8x crap, the result can only be a turd.

In the end, it's just a poor imitation of Primeval Bounty and whoever was responsible for choosing the cards deserves to be punched in the dick.

CoW was simple, yet a thing of beauty. An enchantment which alters the your possible plays would have been far more interesting, like a green enchantment that let's you cast a creature from your library whenever you search it (include limitations here). Instead, we got a wordy, useless clusterfuck while Maro will preach about elegance of design next week again.

@H3llsp4wn: Young Pyromancer

Edit: Considering that the card is a complete waste of card board, its name is kinda ironic.

So it sounds like " you make the card 5" should have its own legacy submissions to keep separate from all of those standard submissions. If that was the case I guarantee you legacy would get something good.

[rufus]

At :1::b: and affecting all opponents, it's a house in multiplayer. (I thought it would have been a :b::b::b: card...)

It seems like the recent rash of high quality GY hate hits this card a bit since it makes symmetric discard abuse weaker.

In principle, each of the triggers is worth roughly one card - :b::b: (Dark Ritual), a body, or a card. To break even for the mana and card cost, you need to see 2 discards. To really profit, you probably need to see four. That seems like a bit of a tall order.

The interactions with Wheel and Deal,Ill-Gotten Gains or Whispering Madness are cute, but probably not worthwhile.

[Teluin]

I love this card. Of course, I play a MB Pox deck so that's why. The deck OFTEN gets to both players top decking with little to no mana out. At that point, all of these abilities become relevant. The deck has always had issues with others that focused on card advantage, but this helps with its own AND the abilities stack.
When both players are top decking - you're almost always going to a creature or a card out of it because the player would play their land. The tokens won't ruin Nether Spirit either. Top decking with the Planeswalker is even better (and happens pretty frequently).
Dark Ritual also makes this a T1 card that gets benefit as the deck has enough 1CC discard spells as well.
So yes, this deck requires a build around it. But if you happen to play the 1 niche deck it's good in, then you're happy.

[Cire]

This card could be fun: really rough list obviously, and in three colors, but turn 3 can get really crazy with an active waste not and two for ones that sometimes lead to more mana and more two for ones. . .

4 Waste Not
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Artifact Toolbox?

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Torach

4 Dark Ritual
4 Tought Seize
4 Duress
4 Burning Inquiry

20 Lands

[Darkenslight]

As an aside, it makes an amusing combo with Psychic Miasma. :D

[Humphrey]

casual card. crappy one

[alderon666]

casual card. crappy one

If you post that on 90% of the SCDs of new cards you're gonna be right. But guess what? Your comment doesn't help us finding out the other 10% that are actually good.

[TsumiBand]

I'm excited to see it costed at 1B. I was sure they'd bail and put it up for 4+cmc like everything else lately.

It merits testing but I believe that this card will work exceptionally well in a discard oriented deck, for the fact that the problem with this style was never that discard is bad but that it becomes an issue of diminishing returns. It works very directly with Cabal Therapy; a deck making use of Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy would be in a position to make a small legion of tokens which are protected by the fact that the discard is self-sustaining. There's almost nothing to lose from a blind Cabal Therapy now; either Young Pyromancer or a single successful creature discard with Waste Not in play will create at least one token, so your opponent is guaranteed to not have their two best creatures in hand. Hymn to Tourach is random but excellent no matter what it hits. Thoughtseize is your choice of card or creature. Seems good.

Yeah it has the Megrim problem of being fundamentally dependent on discard, but where Megrim was arguably a poor effect (losing life is a weak effect in the long term if it doesn't kill) this card has several effects which actually give you real or virtual card advantage (draw, or make a Zombie) or give you mana to cast more spells and get on the board. I think it addresses the issues which are often the problem with opening plays like Ritual -> Hymn -> something else; mainly that both players are generally equally down at least 3 cards and if you topdeck discard it may never actually do anything after the first few turns because the opponent just flips it onto the battlefield as soon as possible. In this way, one is able to lead with Waste Not + a discard spell and begin putting guys into play or drawing cards right off the bat, making the advantage of discard more oppressive. It won't matter if you topdeck discard late in this way, because you'll have emptied their hand much faster and/or done so while actually getting on the board with guys.

And there's there's the whole Ill-Gotten Gains/Wheel of Fortune-like effects/everybody discard all the things angle. I find it hard to find a fault with this that isn't easily addressed by deck construction. Comparing it to Megrim isn't appropriate IMO because its effects are a par above just losing life.

[Humphrey]

If you post that on 90% of the SCDs of new cards you're gonna be right. But guess what? Your comment doesn't help us finding out the other 10% that are actually good.

i only post that on crapcard scd.
Cards doing nothing on their own are useless, unless you can win with them on the spot in a 2-card combo. And most of them are still mediocre.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

1B is a surprisingly good cost, making it totally EDH playable. The prerequisite assumptions still won't work for Legacy though. Some cards can be powerfully designed for what they do and still not be Legacy playable because the fundamentals of the format are different. Look at some of the very, very most powerful cards in EDH that are Legacy legal:

Kodama's Reach
Greater Good
Mana Reflection
Tooth and Nail
Sylvan Primordial
Praetor's Counsel
Austere Command
Rout
Consecrated Sphinx
Cyclonic Rift
Rhystic Study
Bribery
Commandeer
Myojin of Night's Reach
Grave Pact
Decree of Pain
Sorin Markov
Insurrection
Vicious Shadows
Vandalblast
Lightning Greaves
Duplicant
Solemn Simulacrum
Oblivion Stone
Planar Portal
Aura Shards
Debtors' Knell

In the right format these cards are all excellently costed, if not indeed undercosted. But if we were to judge purely based on Legacy, these cards are all poop. There are some cards that see play in both formats- Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library for instance (but then, by contrast, Mirri's Guile and Scroll Rack are much stronger than Ponder, Brainstorm, and Preordain in EDH.) Certainly Sol Ring and Mana Crypt and Skullclamp and Necropotence would be all over the place if they were legal.

And that's not even going into Legacy unplayables that are banned for power reasons in EDH, like Recurring Nightmare, Gifts Ungiven, and Primeval Titan.

[phonics]

I think for this card to be playable it would have to be free, I dont even know about 1cc, because this kind of card really needs to hit play turn 1. You want to cast your discard early to get the relevant cards for maximum disruption, but at 1b it is already way too slow and counter to the strengths of discard unless you ritual it out or something, and when you get 2 mana, most of the time in legacy you would rather cast a hymn that actually has an effect on the game when it is cast. You would need to cast discard early to disrupt prior to casting this, then additional discard to get value out of it, so you would need a ton of discard.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Cards doing nothing on their own are useless, unless you can win with them on the spot in a 2-card combo. And most of them are still mediocre.

This should be the mantra that all deck builders use when considering cute cards.

I also don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that building a deck around this means using a lot of discard spells+this enchantment. That means your deck is significantly watered down, and Abrupt Decay will end your tournament run (or any sideboard stuff like Wear//Tear, etc).

[wcm8]

My guess is that this card will only be viable in some sort of Pox Shell, which often traditionally lacked a way of generating card advantage and would often lose eventually once both players get in top-deck mode. Pox is a tier 2 strategy at best, but maybe this card will help give that archetype a little boost.

Also, it need not necessarily be an all-in, 4-of, build-around-me card. Perhaps Pox would only run 1-2 copies, similar to decks that run the singleton Chains of Mephistopheles or Sylvan Library.

Anyways, I think this card would be better in Modern, which seems to be all about midrange strategies. Or EDH, combined with stuff like Bottomless Pit.

[alderon666]

This should be the mantra that all deck builders use when considering cute cards.

I also don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that building a deck around this means using a lot of discard spells+this enchantment. That means your deck is significantly watered down, and Abrupt Decay will end your tournament run (or any sideboard stuff like Wear//Tear, etc).

Grindstone would beg to differ. Yes, it's a good overall rule, but in case of a combo that wins the game on the spot, it might be worth the risk.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Grindstone would beg to differ. Yes, it's a good overall rule, but in case of a combo that wins the game on the spot, it might be worth the risk.


Cards doing nothing on their own are useless, unless you can win with them on the spot in a 2-card combo. And most of them are still mediocre.

[Gheizen64]

This card is terrible and you can't even build around it because most discard sucks post T3 and the effect isn't constant. You can't even get some wonky infinite combo because people go hellbent and you've just spent your T2 playing a card that maybe has replaced itself. It's beyond terrible.

[TsumiBand]

Cards doing nothing on their own are useless, unless you can win with them on the spot in a 2-card combo. And most of them are still mediocre.

Tarmogoyf
Show and Tell
Delver of Secrets
every card ending in "Tutor"
every Equipment card
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Signal Pest

[Dice_Box]

every Equipment card Living Weapons are an exception.

Granted I see the point made, but each of the cards listed is far more powerful in its effect that this thing. That's why they are played in Legacy where I do not see this card finding a home.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Squirrel]

Tarmogoyf
Show and Tell
Delver of Secrets
every card ending in "Tutor"
every Equipment card
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Signal Pest


While the best days Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape are gone and i can see the Point you're trying to make, this is wrong. Signal Pest is medicore.
Tarmogoyf does nothing on it's own if you wanna say without a grave, but if you take into consideration that we're talking about Legacy, then he is a Wall and a Beater
Show and Tell is Part of a two card combo creating a near game ending boardstate.
etc.
.
.
.

Ofc they require a certain amount of Deck construction, like waste not BUT in Waste Not's (insert other card here's) Case you have to see how high the amount of deck constrcution is (example Tarmogoyf: low) and how big the payoff is.

Not sayin the card ist bad. It can be good in certain situations, and the question is, can you create those situations in Legacy often enough to make the card playable.. and here i fail to see it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Tarmogoyf
Show and Tell
Delver of Secrets
every card ending in "Tutor"
every Equipment card
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Signal Pest


Wow, you're really confusing "Only good with" and "synergy."

Tarmogoyf doesn't need you to play other cards to be useful. The graveyard fills up on its own.
Delver is a 1/1 beater who doesn't require you to play other bad cards. You're going to be playing FoW+Daze+ other stuff with him regardless.
Kird Ape/Wild Nacatyl can beat just fine on their own, and guess what, you're gonna be playing lands in decks that have creatures.

Show and Tell pretty much wins instantly. You either get a 15/15 flying Head Shot or a 7/7 lifelink flying Necropotence, or Omniscience which does win instantly.

Tutors don't require you to play specific cards, and I'm surprised in your straw man here didn't include Brainstorm or other draw card spells.

Playing a deck packed with Discard spells is bad. Needing to play a non-discard spell for 2 mana in that specific deck is also quite bad. Playing extra bad cards so that you can pack 4 of these in a deck (which do absolutely nothing for you when they come down) is extraordinarily bad. Add in to all of that the fact that the opponent could just play their own cards as a way of countering its ability makes this laughable.

[HPB_Eggo]

Want Not isn't a viable Legacy card, but it is fun, interesting, and fills a nice that isn't generally filled well.

Compared to Theros - nearly all chaff with very few cards even perking much interest - it is a breath of fresh air, and that's really all this sort of thing needs to be.

[phonics]

Tarmogoyf
Show and Tell
Delver of Secrets
every card ending in "Tutor"
every Equipment card
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Signal Pest


Those vanilla creatures attack for significant damage for their mana investment. Tutors almost always tutor into their respective game ending combos or saves you from your opponents. Equipment is like a weaker 2 card combo, except it combos with every single creature in your deck. Does waste not attack for a ton of damage? Does it search for your answers or finishers? Does it make every creature in your deck a potential game ender? Does it put you in an incredibly advantageous board state? I would have to say no on all counts. Your comparison doesnt even make sense.

[TsumiBand]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait what the hell.

First of all, for accusing me of invoking a straw man when talking about the role of tutors and/or Tarmogoyf as it pertains to "synergy/only good with", it doesn't really make any sense to follow that with "decks chock full of discard are bad". There's hardly a decklist worth talking about yet, and that is part of the problem isn't it? The decklist matters, in all of these arguments. It sounds like a recursive argument in a game where you're just sitting around dropping cards into play, but it matters.

Show and Tell does literally nothing by itself. Don't fucking tell me that Show and Tell == Emrakul; it puts all kinds of things into play, sure, but it does not do it all damn by itself, there's a whole deck dedicated to the sum-bitch.

Every last beater in that list depends on seeing the right thing at the right time. Wasteland will shrink Apes and Cats, Delver of Secrets is easier to get flipped and stay flipped but it still requires not being in 42dudes.dec. You can say it works with spells, and that's fine and good because you were probably playing them anyway, but you aren't able to throw together to just toss 4 Delver into like High Tide or some other mostlySpells.dec and then be like "LOOK it's synergy. There's SPELLS in my deck, that's a COMBO" when the rest of your aggro is non-existant.

As for being shitty and saying tutors, well sure you have to not be a dumbass and maybe don't play Eladamri's Call in a deck with no dudes. But the tutor by itself doesn't do anything. On a long enough timeline, a deck like Steppe Lynx Sligh or whatever it was called can find that, oh shit I drew more fetches than I can actual fetch lands. I never understood the MO behind running a deck that played twice as many fetchlands as targets, but whatever. Suddenly that card turned real shitty. It's not different from any of the examples.

Discard in particular? Not amazing in the late game, sure. That means nothing, a lot of things are suboptimal topdecks. I do not wish to draw Daze in the lategame, but that does not prevent anyone from maindecking it. However discard is similar to Daze in that it is a ward against unchallenged shenanigans in the early game, and even in the late game it can prevent people from holding back like they'd like to. I think it's worth trying to capitalize on that fact.

The problem with discard has always been that it doesn't affect the board. So now that there's several ways to advance your board state, by forcing the discard or just by playing spells, I'm not sure what the problem is.

As for your putative "decks full of discard are terrible" statement, who said anything about "full of", what constitutes that statement. People are experimenting with Grixis control using things like Quiet Speculation to chain a series of Cabal Therapies thanks to Young Pyromancer; it's impossible to whiff and you're guaranteed to rip their best cards from their hand. So if I'm able to do this and draw my own or make more dudes, that's an avenue I'm interested in exploring.

[nedleeds]

I like it for its combo potential, but the fact the deck would be crap everytime it didn't draw it/got it countered makes me kinda sad.

Just think about it:

Turn 1 Thoughtseize
.

Turn 2 Dark Confidant

[thefreakaccident]

Would the card be playable if it were 1 cc?

I could imagine a 1cc version being pretty explosive with hymm.

[Dice_Box]

Would the card be playable if it were 1 cc?

I could imagine a 1cc version being pretty explosive with hymm.I think this is one of those cards where the difference between CMC 1 and 2 is something like possibly broken and lackluster. CMC 1 would have made it an interesting card, but I wonder what it would have done in this case.

Edit:
What I would be more bothered by is that this thing was set at two because discard was going to be CMC 3 in the next standard set. More or less saying that the next set is going to tease, but not provide. Sounds like a theme.

[thefreakaccident]

I feel like if it were 1cc though, its' abilities wouldn't be in question (would it be great? I don't know). I also don't see it as out of the question for it to be 1cc, because deathrite shaman would probably still be better (less conditional), but, it would be a bit more resilient to hate, therefore balancing the two for me.

I feel like deathrite shaman should be the new standard of comparison for everything. 1 cmc, flexibility, and power. If it doesn't have these things...

This is the reason I feel mana costs will all come down eventually ( 1 cmc sinkhole, etc.), because if they don't come down in cost, they (their abilities) will get pushed out entirely (all in regards to legacy).

[crow_mw]

Making it 1cmc would not change the fundamental problem of this card doing nothing. Say you play turn 1 waste not, turn two Hymn, hymn gets countered. You are behind any deck possible.

What would make it playable is a CiP effect. Preferably a discard ofc. Something like 'inquisition of kozilek on cast' (even without enchantment effect yet in play) would make it good. CiP target opponent discards a card could be acceptable too.

[sco0ter]

Say you play turn 1 waste not, turn two Hymn, hymn gets countered. You are behind any deck possible.


That's a stupid point. Like saying "If you play Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. If AN gets countered, you're behind. Therefore AN is a bad card."
Or "Chrome Mox, imprint, Simian Spirit Guide, Land, Blood Moon. Moon gets countered => crap".

On the other side if Hymn doesn't get countered, you are way ahead.

Honestly I like the card. It turns every Thoughtseize, every Hymn, Liliana into value. Maybe even Anvil of Bogardan could be worth some consideration.

[Humphrey]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205035&type=card

[(nameless one)]

I' sorry if you can't understand our judgement based on Legacy's powerlevel. What I'm asking for? Cards what aren't a total joke compared to creature powercreep.

I doubt that is ever going to happen.

Apparently my entry was too powerful to be picked. For your reference:


Consuming Knowledge :b::b::b:

Enchantment

Skip your draw phase.

At the beginning of your upkeep, choose an opponent. That opponent looks at the top five card of your library and separates those cards into two piles faced down. Put one pile into your hand and exile the other face down.

[Gheizen64]

Would the card be playable if it were 1 cc?

I could imagine a 1cc version being pretty explosive with hymm.

Nah, the fundamental problem is that it does nothing in too many cases. The difference between 1 and 2 is nice, but not enough to make it any less trash. Imagine Chains at 1, it would be better, but still remain a SB card. Chains and Lliana's Caress are way better anti-control cards than this (because this is what this is, a card that punish decks for keeping lots of cards in hand in later turns).

[TsumiBand]

So "life = cards" is one of the oldest Black trades in the book; if you'd put a clause on it similar to Moonlight Bargain it might have been easier to push through. Otherwise it's one-sided Howling Mine even if you manage to draw nothing but land spells.

I don't think there is a *ton* of instances where this matters but it should be mentioned that this wording does see the card triggering on any given discard, not just effects you control. So like, LED and alternate costs and so on.

Also interested if this card can give a little gas to the Pox/Smallpox/Death Cloud clan of effects. Being able to come out of such a situation with more cards and a stronger board presence than your opponent seems like a solid tempo play.

Also because I'm just a little kid with no sense of synergy or usefulness - everyone's favorite $.03 Vindicate replacement Recoil is a TOTAL LITERAL BLOWOUT with Waste Not in play. I mean that so hard. I mean it like 608%.

[Finn]

...semi-coherent tangent following...
This card is head and shoulders better than Liliana's Caress, and of course, better still than Megrim.

Of sufficient Power? Compared to its closest relative, Liliana's Caress, it is a major upgrade. Liliana's Caress does little in the control shell that it is otherwise designed for. By comparison, if you cast Thoughtseize with Waste Not, you get to decide after seeing your opponent's cards how to benefit from choosing one. Dark Ritual, Waste Not into Thoughtseize looks to be a giant boon. Your opponent has Mav? Pick a creature and get out in front. Sneak Show? Take a cog and draw one. A single Hymn with this card out might be enough to win the game. Hymning a land and a Ponder, draw or cast another Hymn with the free mana for two more freebies is an insane loop. I don't know if it is enough to get past the problems all discard-heavy decks face - that of what to do once both decks are in topdeck mode. You get nothing like this with Liliana's Caress because the first 19 points of life your opponent loses are MEANINGLESS.

A simple Abrupt Decay can ruin the fun? Yes, but then that is the case for most permanents in the format. You are not playing combo and not dedicated to winning with this card. I don't know if I see this by any person, but arguing that this card is not good enough and that it gets hit by AD in the next breath is just foolish. If opponents are trying to be rid of it, it is hurting them.

Now, application is another issue. I like what (nameless one) has to say. It is a lot of cards in a single deck to be packed with discard and also this and Liliana. This is Jace-like though, in that it can be a wincon too as well as an engine. I am looking forward to finding the right stuff to take advantage of all the effects this can generate.

Oh yeah: Think about nabbing Dryad Arbor with this out. Got it? Cool.

[ReAnimator]

I think this might be fun as a combo enabler. I don't think it will be good, but it will be fun to play around with and try out. I have no doubt it will be worse than every other storm deck.
Something built around Reforge the Soul, Burning Inquiry and IGG with a ton of rituals and probably some Chant's main deck.

[Teluin]

I don't know if it is enough to get past the problems all discard-heavy decks face - that of what to do once both decks are in topdeck mode. You get nothing like this with Liliana's Caress because the first 19 points of life your opponent loses are MEANINGLESS.


A good monoblack Pox deck plays both land destruction and discard. VERY often, the deck just keeps ticking Liliana and forcing the opponent to discard the card they topdecked but couldn't cast because they have no mana. This is NOT a 4-of card, and quite frankly, it's not a card I want to see in my starting hand. This is a card I want to see later, when my opponent and I are topdecking and I have a Liliana in play. I'm going to try 2 of them in my deck when the card comes out. Having said all of that, this is not a win-more card either. The deck CAN take a long time to win, which gives the opponent the chance to play cards that generate too much CA for the deck to deal with in top deck mode. This helps deal with that. Great card, but not one to be built around, yet must compliment a very specific type of strategy.

[Greenpoe]

Anvil is an excellent idea, but we'd need some other synergy with Anvil. Maybe a Loam, Raven's Crime, Anvil deck? Of course with Shaman around, graveyards aren't the best place to be playing right now...but there's other combos with Anvil. Enlightened Tutor can fetch either one....

Another idea for this card would be in a Staxx or Stasis shell, with the "idea" being to prevent them from doing anything and they have to discard from going to 8+ cards by not doing anything, which you can then use becuase of Stax/Stasis locking everything down and the resources gained become useful. Probably awful, but it's a thought.

[rufus]

Probably casual only, but it could be fun in a shaman discard deck...


Deathrite Shaman
Nezumi Bone-Reader
Slavering Nulls
Sensation Gorger
Waste Not
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Smallpox
Pox
Hymn to Tourach
Rise // Fall

[evanmartyr]

It's much fairer to compare this to the Rack and the enchantment version of the Rack, not Megrim or Caress.

[YamiJoey]

I voted Land.

[Lemnear]

I voted Land.

I did too ... tried to save the card with every vote and stopped caring after WotC picked the rules texts

[lyracian]

...semi-coherent tangent following...
This card is head and shoulders better than Liliana's Caress, and of course, better still than Megrim.

Now, application is another issue. I like what (nameless one) has to say. It is a lot of cards in a single deck to be packed with discard and also this and Liliana. This is Jace-like though, in that it can be a wincon too as well as an engine. I am looking forward to finding the right stuff to take advantage of all the effects this can generate.
Prison Pox decks with Nether Void/Trinsphere and Sinkhole's already manage the occasional top 16 at large events. "Waste Not" is another tool to help push this deck. When you stop the opponent being able to cast the cards they draw there will be cards in hand to be discarded and generate advantage. Pox has always suffered with lack of card draw and this might be enough to push it up to being a more powerful deck.

[barcode]

This card seems like a terrible draw on turn 4.

[lyracian]

This card seems like a terrible draw on turn 4.
Or a real great draw when you played Lilly turn 3; even better when you have smallpox or Hymn in your hand as a follow up play.

[thefreakaccident]

Nah, the fundamental problem is that it does nothing in too many cases. The difference between 1 and 2 is nice, but not enough to make it any less trash. Imagine Chains at 1, it would be better, but still remain a SB card. Chains and Lliana's Caress are way better anti-control cards than this (because this is what this is, a card that punish decks for keeping lots of cards in hand in later turns).

The reason nobody plays chains of Mephistopheles is because it is expensive, not because it is 2cc. Caress isn't played because it is bad.

[Mewens]

I'm actually interested to see how this card plays out.

I'm not of the belief that it's good, mind you – I'm just patiently waiting to see if someone can make this ostensibly casual card tick in Legacy. I don't think it's a stretch to say that these abilities are powerful, even if the underlying mechanic is bad. (I think it's fair to compare it to Lion's Eye Diamond. Not in terms of power level, but in the sense that the upsides are good enough to look for a place where its drawbacks are minimized.)

I do wish this card was a little cleaner, though. These choose-your-own-adventure cards aren't particularly interesting, for the most part – nearly all the decisions regarding them happen in deck construction, not in play. I also feel like they're the result of a design process parallel to the creeping complexity that brought us Balduvian Shaman and Remove Enchantment. Instead of designing for flavor, now we're designing to maximize "value."

[thefreakaccident]

I don't want to build a pox decklist for myself. I am yet interested to see what a decklist would look like while trying to optimize WasteNot.

If only it was 1cc :(

[DragoFireheart]

Pox would love this card.