[Deck] The Brew

[Kich867]

If anyone can photoshop me one of those fancy cart art transitions like the one behind The Source logo of Lingering Souls, Chandra Pyromaster, Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf, and Stoneforge Mystic that'd be sweet.

Anyways, The Brew.

What is The Brew?

The Brew is a 4 color deck that epitomizes the concept of "Mid-range". It has absolutely no intention of tempoing the opponent out, it does nothing particularly busted or broken, it's really, personally, my ideal deck. It has all these high impact cards that demand answers, and it scales into the lategame by being one of the few non-blue decks that actually has persistent card advantage. Every card in the deck is either high impact or a 2-for-1 at least, which I think is something the current non blue decks lack. You always have options, you can bend and maneuver into any position you need to seamlessly...

That's actually why I designed it, I had a discussion about The Rock and Jund and what glaring weaknesses each deck has--The Rock will eventually fold to substantial 2-for-1's or tremendous board presence, against Jace decks it often begins to lose steam and simply can't overcome the opponent drawing so many cards, it really needs a specific kind of hand, a really abusive hand, to get there consistently. It does nothing terribly broken, it's cards are powerful but none of them really change the game, there's nothing you're playing that will flip a game on its head.

Jund on the other hand loses steam by itself. Once it's exhausted its resources your top decks seem miserable and at the end of the day the only real beater it has are Goyfs and it's really hoping that either the Punishing Grove engine or it's substantial amount of 2-for-1's get there, but it hits a point where you're top-decking and you just feel like shit. It's powerful but narrow, it has a lot of these really high impact cards but as you approach the late-game, if you haven't won, you have trouble stabilizing.

In my experience, this deck meets both of those decks at a middle-ground. It has the staying power that The Rock has and the high impact cards of Jund, with some personal choices it's a deck that gives yourself options where neither deck previously did. It can keep an aggressive hand that scales into the late-game, you can choose when to turn on the heat or when to sit back and just drown your opponent in cards, it allows me to come back from positions and make plays that neither deck ever could.


The List:

// Main deck:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Bloodbraid Elf

2x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay

2x Chandra, Pyromaster
3x Sylvan Library

1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Taiga
2x Badlands
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Plateau
2x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
1x Swamp
1x Forest

// Sideboard:
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Pyroblast
1x Duress
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ancient Grudge


General Deck Theory:

I've had people ask me why I'm not running Hymn, or Bob, or GSZ, or Punishing groves, etc. It's just not what the deck is doing. It wants very stable mana, its diversity in fetches and duals allows it to mostly sustain any color combinations its needed, only once out of about 3 months of playing the deck have I been screwed by the mana--of which I went on to win anyways because the deck's lategame is simply wonderful.

The deck isn't explicitly linear, but it's also not terribly difficult to play. It lends itself to naturally just prioritizing card advantage over card power--you'd rather get Sylvan online than play your goyfs because you know you won't die/win for awhile. You have a lot of opportunity to find the answers you need to, the bulk of the complexity of the deck is optimizing sequences and combat math, the decision tree may be more complicated than I give it credit for but it really just jives so well with me that it never really crosses my mind.

Against fair decks you're likely favored outside of Shardless Bug, which I believe is even both pre and post-board. Bloodbraid Elves and Lingering Souls and Pyroblasts shut down Jace, your Thoughtseizes 1 for 1 their 2 for 1's, you run more removal, and more, bigger, scarier threats. You really just need to keep up with Ancestral Visions, which you can, just play tight.

Against combo decks game one is tough, it requires some Thoughtseize action and an aggressive opener. Postboard however, you transform into quite frankly a combo ass kicking machine. Between Thalia, Teeg, Blast, more discard, and SOFAF, I'm not terribly scared of them. I'm confident that hedging the main-deck to give more outs to game one against combo decks is incorrect, given how flooded my meta is with fair decks. Though it's an interesting thought experiment, tuning the deck to operate more like a tempo deck. I doubt it'd be very good without any of the card advantage engines I have going on.

Chandra, Pyromaster:

As soon as this card was announced, I pre-ordered 3 of her and told myself, "I want to play a deck with Chandra, Stoneforge Mystic, and Sylvan Library". I spent about two days working out the list, tuning the land selection based on color distribution, tweaking removal and disruption counts, and everything looked wonderful. The idea in my head was that Chandra is a planeswalker that doesn't lose/doesn't give a shit about lingering souls, enforces permanent bad-blocks, hurts the opponent, kills small creatures, and best of all--she's undeniable card advantage. When you approach the mid-late game and the core of what you're doing transitions into who can eek out more incremental card advantage, she's a non-abrupt-decayable, non-life-depleting, highly-synergistic with sylvan library source of card advantage. Her 0 ability is amazing. She out-performed my expectations greatly and you'd be surprised at how quickly she can turn a game around.

In the fair creature matchups, which is really the only point you'd be playing a 4 drop planeswalker, she just destroys. She either completely takes over the board by killing Bobs, Lingering Souls, Thalias, forcing Mom's to tap, killing Grim Lavamancers and Snapcaster Mages and Baleful Strixes and all sorts of shit. Or she's drawing you an extra card a turn. I dropped to 2, as I felt 6 4 drops was too many, 5 is just right.

This card is only really cuttable if you're meta is infested with combo decks, and if it is, you should likely be playing RUG or Maverick, this is catered towards the expectation that not many people play combo around you.


Wasteland:

Wasteland is mostly used as a manasource in the deck. You want it to take out problem lands like Creeping Tar Pits and Maze of Iths. The only time you'll really be using Wasteland as a Wasteland is if you can already make your 4 drops or you perform the wildly powerful sequence of: Turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, Turn 2 Wasteland + 2 Drop. I occasionally will use it to keep an opponent off of 4 mana for jace as well, one fewer turn that I have to deal with Jace the better, but I'm not terribly worried about him either.

Otherwise, don't use it, you only run 2 so you want to save them for as long as possible.


Why aren't you playing suchandsuch?

I think the first one that jumps to mind is Bob. I've tested Bob in the deck and the most straight forward answer is that he's just a 2/1. You hope that he doesn't die to draw you some other card that will be good but you never really want to see another Bob if this one is alive, he hurts you, and he dilutes the quality of the deck by being a simple 2/1. Stoneforge Mystic on the other hand tutors a source of tremendous power or card advantage in Batterskull and Jitte. Unlike Dark Confidant, whom if he lives a turn presents you with a random extra card, Stoneforge Mystic will always find you a specific, wildly powerful card. And unlike Bob, if Stoneforge Mystic survives a turn she's putting in a 4/4 vigilance lifelinking equipment that can be bounced and replaced at instant speed.

Bob is actually a card that lately I've been losing interest in. This realization that at his core, he's a 2/1, who almost always dies without doing anything relevant, or draws you into what you hope are more relevant cards is starting to pull on my expectations of the card. I don't want this easy to remove thing that hopefully draws me something useful without hitting me too hard. Compared to Sylvan Library, which gives substantial card quality, is harder to kill, and presents you with actual options, not just blind hope. Knowledge is power, I'd always rather know my next 2 draws are shit and fetch away the chaff for a fresh new top 3 rather than wait and hope the cards Bob starts flipping are better. Every card has to seriously impact the state of the game and I've found that 9 times out of 10 Sylvan produces the desired outcome.

Hymn to Tourach is another one, and it's just not where the deck wants to be. Again, knowledge is really key here, the deck isn't rushing you down, it's not trying to pile on insurmountable pressure, the deck is designed from the ground up with the expectation that you have to outplay your opponent and take victories through incremental card advantage and making some hard hitting plays. Hymn to Tourach is random, and it's double black, two things the deck doesn't want. It's a powerful 2-for-1 effect that can sway games, but I'm not looking to end the game quickly.

Grim Lavamancer doesn't jive great with DRS and Goyf, Liliana is double black and is either mirrored card disadvantage which the deck -definitely- doesn't want or is removal which is redundant. I don't want us both to be top decking, I want you to be top decking while I'm drawing two cards a turn or pinging your creatures away while ticking at your life total. Golgari Charm should probably be in the sideboard somewhere...


Closing:

Might have rambled a bit there, but at the end of the day the deck is really fun. It's powerful, I've been consistently only really losing to Omnitell, which I'm slowly getting better at playing against, but otherwise I feel really wonderful in every matchup. It's a lot of very powerful cards, the interactions the deck produces are fun ones, you never really feel out of it, you can just keep it going. Shit gets pretty silly when you slap batterskull on a Tarmogoyf and just start drawing 3 cards a turn off of Sylvan because you aren't losing life, and those sort of interactions aren't uncommon.

Also, seriously, Bloodbraid Elf into Lingering Souls is like taking a bullet train to ValueTown. It feels so. Damn. Good.

[ScatmanX]

Will be testing this deck. It seem to have a little edge against Jund, which is awesome. And the SB is way better.
Want to squeeze some Loxdon Smiters in there. Will tell you how it does.

[Kich867]

Loxodon Smiters in the side or in the main?

I will update the primer when I get home from work, or maybe at lunch, the mana is slightly off (wrote it from memory!) and I want to include a note about Wasteland. The jist being that you shouldn't be using Wasteland unless you're positive it'll screw the opponent.

Turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, Turn 2 Wasteland + Goyf for instance is such a powerful play that it warrants burning the wasteland. Otherwise, you want to keep it for problem lands and mana, the deck really wants to hit it's land drops, even into the late game.

[RaZe]

Have you tested KotRs in lieu of Goyfs? I admit it's more of a financial move but I do enjoy Knight better than Goyf in most instances.

[Tombstalker]

Hey man props for an awesome looking.. brew! The removal suite and chandra are tasty, the only thing that really stands out to me as even a little questionable is, surprisingly SFM into batterskull.
Maybe its just my own recent experiences idk but ive found that play to usually get disrupted in one way or another. When you untap with SFM its obviously great, I just wonder if a sword of F/I wouldnt be immediately useful more often, especially considering souls tokens. This would also give you some surprise factor when tutoring jitte, which otherwise often signifies BS already in hand.

[raikenxy]

Hey man props for an awesome looking.. brew! The removal suite and chandra are tasty, the only thing that really stands out to me as even a little questionable is, surprisingly SFM into batterskull.
Maybe its just my own recent experiences idk but ive found that play to usually get disrupted in one way or another. When you untap with SFM its obviously great, I just wonder if a sword of F/I wouldnt be immediately useful more often, especially considering souls tokens. This would also give you some surprise factor when tutoring jitte, which otherwise often signifies BS already in hand.

batterskull gives the deck the ultimate late game beat stick. and the brew is such a sweet name 0.o

[Kich867]

Have you tested KotRs in lieu of Goyfs? I admit it's more of a financial move but I do enjoy Knight better than Goyf in most instances.

I haven't, Knight doesn't really do anything that Goyf doesn't do already, in this deck KOTR would just be a more expensive, explicitly less good version of Goyf. There are no land shenanigans here, you're not tutoring wastelands and keeping your opponent off of mana, the Goyf slot is really just for a beat stick.


Hey man props for an awesome looking.. brew! The removal suite and chandra are tasty, the only thing that really stands out to me as even a little questionable is, surprisingly SFM into batterskull.
Maybe its just my own recent experiences idk but ive found that play to usually get disrupted in one way or another. When you untap with SFM its obviously great, I just wonder if a sword of F/I wouldnt be immediately useful more often, especially considering souls tokens. This would also give you some surprise factor when tutoring jitte, which otherwise often signifies BS already in hand.

Stoneforge Mystic gets Batterskull almost every time, because hardcasting it is fine. You will hard cast batterskull and you'll likely do it often. And that's fine, you just keep hitting those land drops and keep moving forward. Batterskull can easily be equipped to any of your creatures to create a difficult to deal with clock. Sword of Fire and Ice would be an interesting source of card advantage, but at the end of the day I look at Batterskull as a tutorable creature that single handedly will win games for you. Sometimes it's just too hard to deal with and it generates an insurmountable amount of life so that you can really aggressively use Sylvan Library.

[Qweerios]

I fail to see how this is significantly better than Jund or Rock, and how it manages to take the best of both while disregarding the worst. Overall, it appears that playing 4 colors is an unnecessary stretch. The deck packs almost no non-removal disruption and is most likely to scoop G1 against any combo and control deck out there. It is true that you have Lingering Souls, Bloodbraid, SFM, and a couple questionable PWs against dedicated control decks (Miracles, Nic Fit, Loam, Pox) mainboard but you have to make up for all those dead removal slots to begin with. Therefore, you are as dependent on drawing your value cards than you are on not drawing your removal cards. I am fairly confident that this concept has been tried and dismissed before on grounds that the 4th color doesn't fix any of the existing issues in either of the 3 colored combinations.

It seems to me like you are looking at Rock and Jund and see very specific lists, when in fact, they have a lot of different cards available that could achieve a very similar game plan that you are trying to accomplish (Removal heavy + CA). I think your deck could safely drop red altogether and not suffer in any department. You can play additional T1 removal in the form of Dismember, replace Chandra and BBE's CA and board presence with Bobs, Elspeth, and more Lingering Souls and get to upgrade from Goyf to KotR so you can get more value out of your lands with a more stable and threatening manabase. I am not so sure that this Brew, matched against a Rock deck foregoing most of its non-removal disruption in favor of additional removal and value cards, would be superior. It's not like splashing Red was opening any new and devastating techs like Whipflare in BUG.

-You play Bolt but not 4 StP or 4 Decay. What's the rationale?
-You play Chandra but no Liliana or Elspeth. Is she really better than the proven ones?
-You can play KotR but choose to play Goyf instead when you clearly state that your strategy is not tempo-oriented. What's the rationale?
-You clearly want to get value out of all your incremental and virtual CA, yet you choose not to play Bob and elect to play BBE and copious amounts of Sylvan Libraries. Bob is clearly just a 2/1 for 1B but BBE is also clearly just a 3/2 Haste for 2GR with much less potential for value is a narrower window of opportunity. In a deck that has life gain in the form of DRS, Jitte, and Bskull, I see no better deck to abuse Bob, let along multiple copies of him. This one is just confusing...

[Kich867]

I fail to see how this is significantly better than Jund or Rock, and how it manages to take the best of both while disregarding the worst. Overall, it appears that playing 4 colors is an unnecessary stretch. The deck packs almost no non-removal disruption and is most likely to scoop G1 against any combo and control deck out there. It is true that you have Lingering Souls, Bloodbraid, SFM, and a couple questionable PWs against dedicated control decks (Miracles, Nic Fit, Loam, Pox) mainboard but you have to make up for all those dead removal slots to begin with. Therefore, you are as dependent on drawing your value cards than you are on not drawing your removal cards. I am fairly confident that this concept has been tried and dismissed before on grounds that the 4th color doesn't fix any of the existing issues in either of the 3 colored combinations.

I'd be interested to see those lists.


It seems to me like you are looking at Rock and Jund and see very specific lists, when in fact, they have a lot of different cards available that could achieve a very similar game plan that you are trying to accomplish (Removal heavy + CA). I think your deck could safely drop red altogether and not suffer in any department. You can play additional T1 removal in the form of Dismember, replace Chandra and BBE's CA and board presence with Bobs, Elspeth, and more Lingering Souls and get to upgrade from Goyf to KotR so you can get more value out of your lands with a more stable and threatening manabase. I am not so sure that this Brew, matched against a Rock deck foregoing most of its non-removal disruption in favor of additional removal and value cards, would be superior. It's not like splashing Red was opening any new and devastating techs like Whipflare in BUG.

Knight of the Reliquary requires more of a color commitment, and more turns to be larger than a Goyf. I do nothing tricky with my lands, I don't intend to wasteland people out, and the fetch / dual manabase is as stable as necessary. Bob adds nothing to actual board presence, Elspeth pseudo defends herself and can produce tokens which is great, but Pyromaster actually kills things and produces actual card advantage and has, on occasion, simply killed the opponent by ulting for 9 damage, or a total of 12 if you count the activations to get there.

Bloodbraid Elf directly creates card advantage through cascading and has haste. Haste is a surprisingly powerful effect when facing down planeswalkers.



-You play Bolt but not 4 StP or 4 Decay. What's the rationale?
-You play Chandra but no Liliana or Elspeth. Is she really better than the proven ones?
-You can play KotR but choose to play Goyf instead when you clearly state that your strategy is not tempo-oriented. What's the rationale?
-You clearly want to get value out of all your incremental and virtual CA, yet you choose not to play Bob and elect to play BBE and copious amounts of Sylvan Libraries. Bob is clearly just a 2/1 for 1B but BBE is also clearly just a 3/2 Haste for 2GR with much less potential for value is a narrower window of opportunity. In a deck that has life gain in the form of DRS, Jitte, and Bskull, I see no better deck to abuse Bob, let along multiple copies of him. This one is just confusing...

Bolt is more flexible, it kills more things, Mirran Crusader is kind of an issue in my meta, it targets creatures, players, and planeswalkers. Plow targets only creatures, but is pretty much the best, which is why it comes in at 3. Abrupt Decay is just a catch-all, as is Maelstrom Pulse, and I run that slot as a 2/1 split for more flexibility.

I don't run Lilliana because her +1 sucks for me and her -2, as I outlined in the post, is redundant in the face of an existing 10 removal spells. And yes, she is. Chandra attacks other planeswalkers aggressively and single handedly beats or invalidates every other planeswalker besides Vraska--and certainly no one plays her. She can ping away Elspeth's +1 in both aspects, removing the loyalty counter and the token, while gaining loyalty herself, she kills off Liliana and Jace pretty handedly. She's the only planeswalker that doesn't get destroyed by Lingering Souls.

Knight of the Reliquary is an inferior beater generally, it's a higher mana investment and is tighter on colors for typically no gain, and I find that against Deathrite it's simply too difficult to keep past a 3/3 when Goyf's can be sustained off of things like Enchantments, Planeswalkers, Artifacts--things that Deathrite Shaman can't eat. Furthermore, Goyf plays into the natural curve of the deck better. It can occasionally make powerful tempo plays, but it's also just nice to be a 2 drop 5/6 or 6/7. This seems like a no-brainer to me. Against the combo decks, for sure it's bad game one, but it's certainly pretty good games 2 and 3. Of which this is totally fine, I play 4 discard spells, no non-blue deck outside of Maverick has a wildly good main deck game against combo decks.

Tarmogoyf is an aggressive and defensive card--it performs both tasks better than most. Because of it's easy splashibility and absurdly large body almost all the time, it's a better suit for the deck where flexibility is a goal. Knight pushes the deck more towards white, requires more mana, can't start swinging until a turn later, and it's tap ability is totally useless in the deck--what's it doing? Fixing my already incredibly stable mana base? Wastelocking the opponent with my whopping 2 wastelands? Fetching non-existent highly impractical toolbox lands that the deck can't and shouldn't run? Also, The Rock isn't a tempo deck, yet it absolutely has the opening hands that suggest it--Turn 1 Deathrite into Turn 2 Wasteland + Tarmogoyf is a pretty huge tempo swing. This doesn't suggest that The Rock is a tempo deck because it has that option however.

Refer again to the deck's flexibility, in that the cards are all inherently very powerful, and do powerful things, and it typically wins by playing a -lot- of cards, producing large board presence, and continually putting out threats until the opponent caves. There's no trick or gimmick, you just sort of play dudes, kill things, and keep abusing Sylvan / Chandra / BBE / SFM / Lingering Souls for extra cards. And having tremendous experience playing both The Rock and Punishing Jund, I find myself having a lot more success with this deck, it's a different deck, it feels different and it can do things The Rock and Jund can't do alone.

Bloodbraid Elf is a 3/2 haste that immediately draws and plays for free a second card, who can be set up to dig past lands, is outside of abrupt decay range, and regularly blows people out. It applies wonderful pressure, and it'd never leave the list.

I was quite upfront in the post about what the list was catered towards--if you have more combo in the meta or are worried about it, play Liliana over Chandra and add more discard, it gives you a better out game 1 and the sideboard is still as strong as ever for games 2 and 3. I often lose game one against combo, but I board in something like 12 cards and it's almost impossible to not keep a great hand against them.

[Fuzzy]

Will be testing this deck. It seem to have a little edge against Jund, which is awesome. And the SB is way better.
Want to squeeze some Loxdon Smiters in there. Will tell you how it does.

Oh, now I see...

[Qweerios]

I see where this is headed and I wish you the best in the pursuit of your pet deck.

[raikenxy]

I see where this is headed and I wish you the best in the pursuit of your pet deck.

his pet decks prlly better then you give it credit for, so relax dude...


back to the deck, i doubt including smiter would really do anything? goyf is already the beat stick? and i feel like if you want to play a three mana beater kotr would just be better, but since that's irrelevent to the deck design wouldnt smiters would also be irrelevant. the only actual doubt i have is not running bob, but your reasoning makes sense as I've also found bob just to be a 2 mana lightning rod. when he lives it's fantastic, but most good players won't let him live long.

[frogger42]

I fail to see how this is significantly better than Jund or Rock, and how it manages to take the best of both while disregarding the worst. Overall, it appears that playing 4 colors is an unnecessary stretch... I am fairly confident that this concept has been tried and dismissed before on grounds that the 4th color doesn't fix any of the existing issues in either of the 3 colored combinations.


I'm totally with Qweerios on this. It seems like you're adding a fourth color to get a slight advantage in card power, when it damages things like your manabase (how does your deck fare against Tempo/Wasteland?) and essentially ignores potential inherent synergy. It looks like you're trying to drop as many bombs as you can, and while that is usually a winning strategy in Magic, you also want to keep in mind that decks with synergy tend to get a slight edge to these kinds of decks. Tempo - daze, Wasteland, the most efficient creatures might leave you blocked from ever getting into the game. Death and Taxes/ Maverick - mana denial + beaters and board control can potentially control the board state better than what you're doing. Combo/Reanimator/Show and Tell - super-synergistic decks that play "weak cards" (Lotus Petal, Careful Study, etc) to get strong effects (storm, T1 Grislebrand).

I think the deck lacks a clear gameplan, other than to hope the bomb in your hand is the one that will be the right one for the MU. DnT doesn't worry about this because it has a clear gameplan of denial and board control (through weenies). When you have more of a gameplan, your deck tends to function better even when you don't get the SFM, or can stall out until you get the card you need.
Just my 2C. Seeing a list that runs 4 Bolt, 3 StoP, and 2 Decay looks super-awkward and inefficient to me. But good luck with your deck.
-Frogger

[Kich867]

I'm totally with Qweerios on this. It seems like you're adding a fourth color to get a slight advantage in card power, when it damages things like your manabase (how does your deck fare against Tempo/Wasteland?) and essentially ignores potential inherent synergy. It looks like you're trying to drop as many bombs as you can, and while that is usually a winning strategy in Magic, you also want to keep in mind that decks with synergy tend to get a slight edge to these kinds of decks. Tempo - daze, Wasteland, the most efficient creatures might leave you blocked from ever getting into the game. Death and Taxes/ Maverick - mana denial + beaters and board control can potentially control the board state better than what you're doing. Combo/Reanimator/Show and Tell - super-synergistic decks that play "weak cards" (Lotus Petal, Careful Study, etc) to get strong effects (storm, T1 Grislebrand).

I think the deck lacks a clear gameplan, other than to hope the bomb in your hand is the one that will be the right one for the MU. DnT doesn't worry about this because it has a clear gameplan of denial and board control (through weenies). When you have more of a gameplan, your deck tends to function better even when you don't get the SFM, or can stall out until you get the card you need.
Just my 2C. Seeing a list that runs 4 Bolt, 3 StoP, and 2 Decay looks super-awkward and inefficient to me. But good luck with your deck.
-Frogger

I mean that's a more interesting conversation for sure. Bombs I think is a strong word--what are the bombs in this deck, Bloodbraid Elf is really the only one that I can think of--stoneforge, goyf, chandra, lingering souls, these all are just good cards. The deck lacks synergy, maybe, I'm not convinced of that entirely but it's an interesting point. The deck plays pretty naturally for me, there are very few bad hands because all of the cards are so good. And it's quite redundant, it's often turn one thoughtseize / deathrite followed by turn two stoneforge / goyf / sylvan. From there, I'm mostly looking to resolve a Chandra and swamp them in cards / kill creatures or jam lingering souls and abuse Batterskull.

I think you'd be surprised at the consistency of the gameplan, which is ultimately to just produce a lot of stuff. I based the theory on Shardless Bug, a deck that simply produces insane board presence and cards to destroy the opponent. The goal, from the get-go, is to be a non-blue deck that produces a lot of things. Right now, midrange decks are kind of common--in my meta especially.

My meta consists of: Shardless Bug, Maverick, Deadguy Ale, UWR Delver, Nic Fit, UR Delver, etc. My problems came with playing Junk against Shardless Bug and other blue decks. Shardless Bug simply produces more threats than Junk did, they drowned me in cards, and the only times I won were with tremendously abusive hands that involve Deathrite Shaman into Wasteland into 2 drops and tempoing them out of the game--but they deck can't survive the lategame, ever. You can't beat jace and ancestral vision, you can't kill them fast enough to stop that and you can't produce enough cards without killing yourself to deal with it.

So as a response, I designed this deck to allow me to produce similar cards in a more aggressive shell--to have a Planeswalker who can produce card advantage and interesting board states, to have a cascade creature to pressure their board, to have enough removal to keep them on the back foot and enough eclectic hate in the side to handle combo. That's the theory of the deck, that's why it was made and what it's doing. That's the goal. I want to have a lot of ways to generate card advantage, and it's gameplan is to win through having more cards than the opponent that are better than what they're doing.

In regards to Maverick--a matchup I face frequently, I often win. Chandra is troublesome for them, it pressures their Mother of Runes into tapping pre-combat and lets me be far more aggressive towards them, the tremendous amount of removal lets me stay ahead on board in comparison to their 4 swords. The tempo wasteland decks aren't terribly annoying because I run 23 lands and deathrite shamans, there's not a lot of that sort of deck in my area right now, but so far it hasn't been an issue. Blood Moon occasionally gets me, but that's about it.

Post-board against combo I pump up to: 5 discards, 3 REB, 3 thalia, 2 gaddock teeg, 1 SOFAF as my hate package. This seems to work out fine, 14 cards to help me against combo is a lot and it dodges the ever-so-common Leyline of Sanctity that I'm seeing.

I'm going to continue testing, and taking yours and Qweerios' opinions into account. Red may not be necessary, but right now in my meta, it feels like it is, bloodbraid elf is just so damn strong. Chandra Pyromaster does a tremendous amount of work--I've had literally every person in my local store telling me how much stronger she actually is in legacy than they had previously thought. Even last week, I had a crowd around my game where people were remarking about how busted she looked in the matchup VS Deadguy Ale--which she is, she's busted against any deck that uses Dark Confidant and Lingering Souls.

The Rock is always near and dear to me, and having a more stable manabase is always preferred, but I built the deck after too many months of playing The Rock and Jund and feeling, mostly, that I would love to be able to play The Rock with Bloodbraid elf and Pyroblast in the side. Chandra just helps because she can just push huge damage through. Their 8/8 Knight doesn't really matter when it can't block my Batterskull, Goyf, and Bloodbraid Elf. A circumstance that seems to be coming up frequently, where sometimes enough stuff on board and Chandra saying "you can't block" gets there.

[frogger42]

Well thought out response. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this deck looks like Jund with White to me - you gain SFM (which you only 3x of), StoP (best removal in the game) and Ling Souls. With the exception of Ling Souls, I'd say you're gaining a bit of power in card choices by adding the extra color - however, you do end up playing things like 1x Plateau and 2x Bayou, pretty much no 4x in the manabase. So you're going to lose consistency there. I think if you could play SFM in black, you definitely would, but again, there's a reason all the heavy hitters are spread over more than one color (Blue and then everything else).

I've built good decks and awful decks, and the biggest difference between a successful deck and one less successful to me has been consistency. I think this list lacks that, both in manabase and your spells. Whatever your deck should do, you should be able to predict - I'm going to get this kind of threat, or this kind of removal - what your deck wants to do. I think including Ling Souls is likely how you're beating Shardless Bug (they get a lotta 1/1s and 2/2s, that one Ling Souls just beats), and maybe in other MUs that Batterskull just makes you feel like a boss. I suspect that's kind of what this deck is doing, and if you play into just 3 colors, be it Rock or Jund, I feel like you can get really creative with your solutions. Legacy is the best format because you can go on Gatherer, google sh*@ for like 3 hours, and find that one little bulk card that turns around a MU completely. It's totally awesome.

Example - I run a bizarre Affinity build. I keep losing to 12 Post because I don't run Wasteland - I run Esper, and I need the color fixing more than Wastes. Eventually I found the 1 Cranial Plating + 4 SFM I ran wasn't enough, because 12 post has no dudes to block - instead of adding more lands (bleh) I went up to 4 Cranials and now it's a breeze. Capitalize on that MUs weakness.

Practical solution - I'd probably cut things like SFM and Ling Souls for Young Pyromancer. He's a little less powerful than SFM, but helps your manabase a whole lot more - a Bob that creates board presence. That should help your Shardless MU. And if you need more, Punishing Fires + Grove will knock out those weenies and play well with Pyroman. And def try Chandra and all that; if the card's working for you, then by all means work it. I still think Lil is a bit better because you can T2 her and Bloodbraid Elf for her, too.
I don't see it being worth 8 white slots when you can pretty much work the same effects into your deck (and I think Decay + Bolt is plenty fine for this kinda deck) and keep it consistent. Go on Gatherer, get creative, and find outs in your colors. There's always one in Legacy, I've found. (Even if it's The Abyss, hehe.)

[Kich867]

Played in my local meta with changes that lean towards some of the input others have given. I lowered the removal count and added Dark Confidants. This makes the removal suite more consistent, Plows kill dudes and Pulse takes care of Jaces and Elspeths and Batterskulls or lingering souls etc.

From the original list, the changes were as follows:
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+4 Dark Confidant

The sideboard changes were:
-1 Maelstrom Pulse (2 main now, no need for third)
+2 Abrupt Decay (more spot removal in the matchups I'll need it)

The results were not stellar. Bob continued to underperform, it's really surprising at how ineffective he is. The deck doesn't need anymore card advantage/quality engines outside of Stoneforge, BBE, Lingering Souls, Chandra, Library, and Pulse.

The deck is designed for a meta with very little combo presence, or at least this list is. I want 7 ways to kill something turn one, I want the flexible removal because all I need to do is 1 for 1 your threats and play all my 2 for 1 proactive cards like Stoneforge, BBE, Souls, Chandra. It plays more like a control deck most games against the fair tempo / midrange decks..

These are the changes I would recommend when playing in a meta with combo presence:
-3 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Chandra
-1 Thoughtseize
+3 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Cabal Therapy / your preferred discard spell, I personally feel comfortable with Therapy

Sideboard:
-1 Duress
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Thoughtseize
+2 Golgari Charm

-- Your game one against combo now focuses on Thoughtseize / Therapy and landing Liliana's, possibly cascading into her off of BBE. You have 9 discard effects and a lower curve with higher amounts of disruption. Lightning Bolts stay in over Plowshares since you still have Liliana / Abrupt Decay / Maelstrom Pulse to kill things larger than 3 toughness and Lightning Bolt serves a purpose in increasing the clock against combo--Storm Combo can't go below 7 for instance, off their ad nauseam in fear of bolt, which restricts them ever so slightly.

Your postboard plan is to take out most of your removal and bring in the holy mother-fuck of combo hate. Your sideboard will likely look something like this: getting rid of cards that are too slow or don't impact the state of the game.
-2 Lingering Souls
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Bloodbraid Elf
-2 Sylvan Library
+1 Thoughtseize
+3 Thalia
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 SOFAF
-- Maybe try and find a way to squeeze in REB's but, REB's aren't great against TES/ANT, I'd rather have the cheap sweeper for their goblins.

Obviously this changes based on the combo you're facing. REB and Nihil Spellbomb are great cards against various combo decks. But postboard the anti-combo cards available are: 4x Thoughtseize, 3x Cabal Therapy, 3x Red Elemental Blast, 3x Liliana of the Veil, 3x Thalia, 2x Gaddock Teeg, Sword of Feast and Famine, 2x Golgari Charm, 2x Nihil Spellbomb. Hate bears, discard, hard counters, and blowouts to GY strategies / token strategies. There's not a lot more you can ask for. Charms also help deal with Leyline of Sanctity.

In my local meta, however, virtually no one plays combo, and the maindeck is quite strong against other midrange / fair decks. Mirran Crusader is rampant, and can kill so quickly I require enough answers to stop him consistently. Lots of Deadguy Ale variants, Maverick variants, BUG, and Affinity. Sometimes Jund and The Rock as well. Once in a blue moon someone stops by with Reanimator and the only consistent combo player at my LGS is leaving to manage a new location for said LGS (grats to him!).

[Kich867]

Split first in my local against Punishing Maverick.

I reverted to the list, verbatim, posted in the original post, and I'm confident that for my meta it's the correct decision. The whole goal of the deck against fair decks goes: One for one their threats until I overwhelm them with 2-for-1 threats in Lingering Souls, Stoneforge, Bloodbraid, and Chandra. Almost every fair game either was won through that strategy, or the alternate strategy and sort of original idea of the deck, "slam an overwhelming amount of board presence down and overrun the opponent" which happened a few times, but, mostly the former.

Round 1: Reanimator 2-1
Game 1: I know he's on reanimator (gogo locals!) and keep a double deathrite hand. He wins the die and goes land pass. A minor fist pump. I cast Deathrite, resolves, fist pump? Pass, he draws his card for turn HUGE-FIST-PUMP. I get the second deathrite and the game was sealed up then. It dragged because I had to keep them up most of the time but EOT I pecked away.

Game 2: Sketchy, sketchy keep. I lose, weird game.

Game 3: I keep a pretty disruptive hand but needs a fetch to get a Scrubland so I can get Thalia down the next turn, but I open up with Thoughtseize, he kept 4 cantrips and 3 lands, I've got a bit of an inner fist pump, this means he needs to spend most of his turns cantripping. He has a careful study, I take it with the thoughtseize and make him burn all his cantrips to find an answer. He goes and passes, I slam Thalia, he brainstorms and forces--fist pump, two cantrips down. I'm out of threats, but have a pyroblast and an abrupt decay in hand, just in case. I top deck a deathrite and slam it, he brainstorms and forces again. He tries to cast careful study, I pyroblast it, he dazes it-fuck. He discards two lands, fist pump. Play the jitte from my opening hand and pass, he has 2 cards, he plays a land and plays a pithing needle naming deathrite, I draw another deathrite, slam it and equip the jitte. He draws a card and passes, I draw a thoughtseize and slam it, get a daze, awesome. I get the jitte active and start bashing him for 5. He goes to 3 but he hasn't found enough cards to win and the goyf I play seals it.


Round 2: Zombardment 2-0
Game 1 & 2: I play stuff and kill stuff and overwhelm the deck. Deathrite Shamans eat recurring dudes and plows are good.


Round 3: Shardless BUG 2-1
Game 1: We go back and forth real hard, he keeps a triple goyf shardless agent 2 land hand after a mull to 6. I thoughtseized on the open, took the shardless agent because I knew I had double plow and abrupt decay for the goyfs. He plays his goyf, I play my goyf. He top decks an abrupt decay like a monster and kills my goyf. The plan was to stonewall his goyf with mine, then untap, destroy his front line and get in, kill the next one and just keep going. I eventually kill everything, he plays a liliana and gets me, I played a Goyf and swing at liliana. He blocks with his DRS and I bolt the liliana. He rips another and kills the goyf, then gets a deathrite, I get my own deathrite with a jitte on it, but I only have one turn. I swing, kill his deathrite, he untaps and uses up lili again to kill my deathrite. He rides a deathrite to victory and I draw nothing but lands for the next 6 turns.

Game 2: I have a bolt, an abrupt decay, a wasteland, a bloodbraid, a pyroblast, and 2 lands. I keep, play my fetch and pass. He plays a deathrite, I bolt it eot. I untap and wasteland. He plays another deathrite, I untap and decay it. He brainstorms and only finds a creeping tar pit. Two turns later bloodbraid elf hits a goyf and he concedes with Underground Sea / Creeping Tar Pit on board, it sounded like the lack of green shut him out of his hand. The gameplan was to deny, and it panned out.

Game 3: I keep a pretty solid hand. We go back and forth as we do, he kills shit, I kill shit. I don't remember exactly what happened here, but I remember getting a massive goyf, his ancestral goes off, and he plays a Deathrite and a Shardless Agent into a Brainstorm. I kill both of them and bash for 6. He draws, I think he tried to play a jace and I pyroblast it, then bash for 6. He draws a card and concedes, whew!

Definitely the best player in our meta, the games were incredibly tense and I was blown away that I didn't get drowned in cards after he draw something like 7 cards in one turn.


Round 4: Punishing Maverick: 1-1-1

Game 1: I win the die roll, play deathrite, pass. He plays deathite, I untap bolt his deathrite and play goyf. He plays something, I play bloodbraid elf into goyf, then bloodbraid elf into stoneforge and ran him over.

Game 2: We drag on forever, I have him at 5, but he stabilizes with 3 Punishing Fires and 3 groves and a maze of ith, this game goes on for like 45 minutes. I have a bolt in hand, any bolt or wasteland wins the game for something like 25-30 turns. Nothing. I end the game with like 15 cards in my deck and there's still a lot of outs I never hit. *EDIT* I definitely should have conceded this game after about 15 minutes in, once he had enough punishing fires to kill a 5/6 goyf I should have conceded and gone to the next game.

Game 3: We both have strong starts, I end up with a Sylvan and a Chandra to his only lands, and I end up not being able to kill him in time.




-- Deck performed amazingly all night. Felt amazing. Beating Reanimator was pretty lucky and as soon as I did I was confident I wasn't losing shit tonight.

[ironclad8690]

Split first in my local against Punishing Maverick.

I reverted to the list, verbatim, posted in the original post, and I'm confident that for my meta it's the correct decision. The whole goal of the deck against fair decks goes: One for one their threats until I overwhelm them with 2-for-1 threats in Lingering Souls, Stoneforge, Bloodbraid, and Chandra. Almost every fair game either was won through that strategy, or the alternate strategy and sort of original idea of the deck, "slam an overwhelming amount of board presence down and overrun the opponent" which happened a few times, but, mostly the former.

Round 1: Reanimator 2-1
Game 1: I know he's on reanimator (gogo locals!) and keep a double deathrite hand. He wins the die and goes land pass. A minor fist pump. I cast Deathrite, resolves, fist pump? Pass, he draws his card for turn HUGE-FIST-PUMP. I get the second deathrite and the game was sealed up then. It dragged because I had to keep them up most of the time but EOT I pecked away.

Game 2: Sketchy, sketchy keep. I lose, weird game.

Game 3: I keep a pretty disruptive hand but needs a fetch to get a Scrubland so I can get Thalia down the next turn, but I open up with Thoughtseize, he kept 4 cantrips and 3 lands, I've got a bit of an inner fist pump, this means he needs to spend most of his turns cantripping. He has a careful study, I take it with the thoughtseize and make him burn all his cantrips to find an answer. He goes and passes, I slam Thalia, he brainstorms and forces--fist pump, two cantrips down. I'm out of threats, but have a pyroblast and an abrupt decay in hand, just in case. I top deck a deathrite and slam it, he brainstorms and forces again. He tries to cast careful study, I pyroblast it, he dazes it-fuck. He discards two lands, fist pump. Play the jitte from my opening hand and pass, he has 2 cards, he plays a land and plays a pithing needle naming deathrite, I draw another deathrite, slam it and equip the jitte. He draws a card and passes, I draw a thoughtseize and slam it, get a daze, awesome. I get the jitte active and start bashing him for 5. He goes to 3 but he hasn't found enough cards to win and the goyf I play seals it.


Round 2: Zombardment 2-0
Game 1 & 2: I play stuff and kill stuff and overwhelm the deck. Deathrite Shamans eat recurring dudes and plows are good.


Round 3: Shardless BUG 2-1
Game 1: We go back and forth real hard, he keeps a triple goyf shardless agent 2 land hand after a mull to 6. I thoughtseized on the open, took the shardless agent because I knew I had double plow and abrupt decay for the goyfs. He plays his goyf, I play my goyf. He top decks an abrupt decay like a monster and kills my goyf. The plan was to stonewall his goyf with mine, then untap, destroy his front line and get in, kill the next one and just keep going. I eventually kill everything, he plays a liliana and gets me, I played a Goyf and swing at liliana. He blocks with his DRS and I bolt the liliana. He rips another and kills the goyf, then gets a deathrite, I get my own deathrite with a jitte on it, but I only have one turn. I swing, kill his deathrite, he untaps and uses up lili again to kill my deathrite. He rides a deathrite to victory and I draw nothing but lands for the next 6 turns.

Game 2: I have a bolt, an abrupt decay, a wasteland, a bloodbraid, a pyroblast, and 2 lands. I keep, play my fetch and pass. He plays a deathrite, I bolt it eot. I untap and wasteland. He plays another deathrite, I untap and decay it. He brainstorms and only finds a creeping tar pit. Two turns later bloodbraid elf hits a goyf and he concedes with Underground Sea / Creeping Tar Pit on board, it sounded like the lack of green shut him out of his hand. The gameplan was to deny, and it panned out.

Game 3: I keep a pretty solid hand. We go back and forth as we do, he kills shit, I kill shit. I don't remember exactly what happened here, but I remember getting a massive goyf, his ancestral goes off, and he plays a Deathrite and a Shardless Agent into a Brainstorm. I kill both of them and bash for 6. He draws, I think he tried to play a jace and I pyroblast it, then bash for 6. He draws a card and concedes, whew!

Definitely the best player in our meta, the games were incredibly tense and I was blown away that I didn't get drowned in cards after he draw something like 7 cards in one turn.


Round 4: Punishing Maverick: 1-1-1

Game 1: I win the die roll, play deathrite, pass. He plays deathite, I untap bolt his deathrite and play goyf. He plays something, I play bloodbraid elf into goyf, then bloodbraid elf into stoneforge and ran him over.

Game 2: We drag on forever, I have him at 5, but he stabilizes with 3 Punishing Fires and 3 groves and a maze of ith, this game goes on for like 45 minutes. I have a bolt in hand, any bolt or wasteland wins the game for something like 25-30 turns. Nothing. I end the game with like 15 cards in my deck and there's still a lot of outs I never hit. *EDIT* I definitely should have conceded this game after about 15 minutes in, once he had enough punishing fires to kill a 5/6 goyf I should have conceded and gone to the next game.

Game 3: We both have strong starts, I end up with a Sylvan and a Chandra to his only lands, and I end up not being able to kill him in time.




-- Deck performed amazingly all night. Felt amazing. Beating Reanimator was pretty lucky and as soon as I did I was confident I wasn't losing shit tonight.

I love this deck, but I am curious why forest and swamp as the two basics?

[Kich867]

I love this deck, but I am curious why forest and swamp as the two basics?

The forest is because green is the most commonly found color symbol among my cards. Together with the swamp, this enables my most powerful turn one plays: Deathrite Shaman and Thoughtseize. I always want to cast these cards, and the most common forms of dual land hate: Blood Moon, Back to Basics--are both killed by Abrupt Decay, cast by those basic colors.

The most difficult thing about playing the deck is being incredibly meticulous about what dual lands to fetch with what fetches. Each fetch has a certain dual in the deck that it can't get, and if you throw them around without any planning you'll end up in an awkward mana scenario.


A friend brought up to me at our local that my deck is actually incredibly similar to Deathblade, swapping blue for red. Deathblade also plays very little disruption game 1 and instead boards into a lot of combo hate, but uses it's board presence and card advantage permanents to grind games out. However, against Deathblade, this deck has (so far) a very positive matchup. Eventually all my crap is just bigger than theirs.