Selling fake miscuts: Is it okay?

[Occam]

For instance:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-Mtg-Foil-Miscut-Mystical-Tutor-FTV-Exiled-VHTF-/321217592303?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item4aca0f7bef

"While the card is hand cut there is no doubting that it is still very rare and extremely cool."

Should people be allowed to create these miscuts and follow that up by selling them for a profit?

For:

- The uncut sheet is the owner's property. Title gives certain privileges.

Against:

- The potential of future misrepresentation.

Obviously, the pros and cons are summarised -- I'm not going to write a thesis on the ethicality. Thoughts?

[JPoJohnson]

I don't dig it. Kudos on the original seller for not trying to misrepresent.... but you know it's going to eventually down the road be sold as is and misrepresented.

[Occam]

Contrast

""While the card is hand cut there is no doubting that it is still very rare and extremely cool.""

with

what the original listings were:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mtg-Foil-Miscut-Kird-Ape-FTV-Exiled-VHTF-/321200435842?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item4ac909b282

"While the card is likely hand cut there is no doubting that it is still very rare and extremely cool."

I'd say that the intention was to retain ambiguity until that became impossible.

[Megadeus]

I mean assuming that this seller just stumbled across the card and wasn't the one who made the cut, I dont see anything wrong with it. I actually wondered that. Nedleeds won a sheet of antiquities that had stuff like Shops on it and such, but what is stopping you from making Insanely Miscut Pimp Workshops? And because it was hand cut and not machine cut (assuming it is perfect) does that make a difference?

[Occam]

There is a whole bunch of them on ebay, and on the facebook rarity page. This was at least partially for sales/profit, let's be clear about that.


I wanted Miscut tops more than anything, they also don't exist. The rest I don't care about but other people do. In a business person, if you have a problem with our free market system than your living in the wrong country.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=10&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=mtg+miscut+ftv&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

The seller is Eli Kassis.

[Kayradis]

Isn't that the guy that got his collection stolen a couple months ago?

[nedleeds]

I mean assuming that this seller just stumbled across the card and wasn't the one who made the cut, I dont see anything wrong with it. I actually wondered that. Nedleeds won a sheet of antiquities that had stuff like Shops on it and such, but what is stopping you from making Insanely Miscut Pimp Workshops? And because it was hand cut and not machine cut (assuming it is perfect) does that make a difference?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LmQHlZStm0w/Uk2FRYAtywI/AAAAAAAACCE/VZr29qCOst8/s512/shoponwall.jpeg

Thankfully the buyer is a worshipper of Mishra. He framed it and put it on his wall. All I would have been able to carve out would have have been a Millstone Shop.

I think the Candelabra of Strip Mine would have been the nuttiest one.

[HammafistRoob]

I wish I could change my vote. I voted without even looking at ebay, I misunderstood what you meant by fake miscuts. Eli is a good guy, and yes he had a lot of his stuff stolen. I think as long as he lists the cards as hand cut then there is absolutely no problem.

[Fry]

Yes Eli is the one who had his stuff stolen a few months back. He also was clear that he was not the one who cut the sheet.

I personally disagree with cutting up sheets for they are (moderately, depending on set) rare and beautiful. I think that if you traded for the hand cut cards and you choose to sell/trade them, that's your business, but I don't have to like it. My problem comes with the likelihood of the cards being misrepresented as authentic after a trade or two.

Over all, I don't like or agree with it, but I don't have any say in the matter. I refuse to trade for them, partly because I don't want to play miscuts and I don't know too many people near me who would... Also hard to verify authenticity, especially with newer sets.

[Megadeus]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LmQHlZStm0w/Uk2FRYAtywI/AAAAAAAACCE/VZr29qCOst8/s512/shoponwall.jpeg

Thankfully the buyer is a worshipper of Mishra. He framed it and put it on his wall. All I would have been able to carve out would have have been a Millstone Shop.

I think the Candelabra of Strip Mine would have been the nuttiest one.

After I heard something about a cape, I got real sad when I heard you sold it. But then when you told me what you sold it for, I realized that that was a goddamn expensive cape.

[nedleeds]

Yeah and honestly the dude I sold it to ... really really really wanted it ... and he was an honorable opponent with a sick shop deck (not occam test print sick, but pretty russo-foiled out, etc.).

[clavio]

Oh shit, everybody voted no so far except me. I think it's fine. No problem at all.

[Koby]

I say it's okay. If you're in the market for obscenely miscut cards, it's incumbent on you to verify that it's kosher. So long as it's a legal Magic card for play, then I'm fine with it.

Disclaimer: I don't care for miscuts. I don't care for foils.

[r3dd09]

I say it's okay. If you're in the market for obscenely miscut cards, it's incumbent on you to verify that it's kosher. So long as it's a legal Magic card for play, then I'm fine with it.

Disclaimer: I don't care for miscuts. I don't care for foils.

You care about the scribbles.

I'm sitting on the fence about this topic. I think I'm leaning towards it being okay for the reason Koby listed. If you're after obscene things, and it's the only way you can get a miscut, sure. If Eli can't find a miscut Top, they must be VERY difficult to come by and as a last resort, I'd even go the route of a handcut miscut.

I'd try and stay as close to real stuff as possible.

[thecrav]

It looks cool but it's certainly not as pimp as a real miscut.

A friend bought one of these tops. It does indeed look pretty sick.

[apple713]

As long as the intent of the seller is not to deceive it should be acceptable.

There are 3 people who would be interested in a miscut; Those who are interested in it's collectibility, and those interested in it's aesthetics, and those interested in both.

It follows that if you are interested in a cards collectibility a man made miscut would not be something sought after regardless if you are also interested in it's aestetics.

People who are interested only in its aestetics would be happy to collect it because they dont care about its collectibility. <--- this does not mean that people should make weird miscut proxies

I definatly would not have hand cut them tho... they look like the edges have been messed up. Should have paid to have them professionally cut.


On a separate note these cards should probably not be tournament legal due to their inherently confusing nature.

[phonics]

The only thing that matters is if one can do it (or get away with it), because if so, there will always be someone out there that will do it. How many sheets did they give out? If he was doing miscuts he should have gone balls deep and made them diagonal like gunslingas cliques.

[apple713]

The only thing that matters is if one can do it (or get away with it), because if so, there will always be someone out there that will do it. How many sheets did they give out? If he was doing miscuts he should have gone balls deep and made them diagonal like gunslingas cliques.

the intent was to make them tournament legal and having the name and casting cost on the card makes it so. I guess though you could cut them so that the name and casting cost are running diagonally through the card instead. that would have been interesting.

[Nihil Credo]

No. I don't consider an off-hand "btw, this is hand cut" remark in the description to be a good-faith effort to inform the prospective customer.

If he had put it in the title, or even if he had highlighted that in the description, I could feel differently. But as it is, this looks like fishing for profitable misunderstandings.

e: To be clear, my issue is with the linked auction in the OP. I absolutely approve of manually creating miscuts as long as you are 100% straightforward about their origin.

[phazonmutant]

Occam, I think you made some good arguments against cutting sheets and selling them as miscuts in the pimp thread a while ago. Even if you represent it clearly, someone down the road is going to be deceived. It's analogous to rebacking - if you do it to proxy pimp your EDH deck, fine, but I think everyone here would agree that selling rebacks is pretty shady. Also, since the point of miscuts is their rarity, this undermines the whole point.

That being said, "shouldn't be allowed to" sell them? Who's going to enforce that? I don't see any legitimate authority who could or should stop them.

[Occam]

If you're after obscene things, and it's the only way you can get a miscut, sure. If Eli can't find a miscut Top, they must be VERY difficult to come by and as a last resort, I'd even go the route of a handcut miscut.



It isn't just about getting a miscut Top, is it? Sure, it was one of his intentions, but the fact that the rest of the sheet is being hawked on ebay and facebook means profit must have entered the equation pretty prominently. That people might want these despite their nature is acceptable, but I don't think anyone should read too much into the free-market rhetoric that Eli was spouting on fb.


As long as the intent of the seller is not to deceive it should be acceptable.

That's questionable in this case, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the seller. The main issue I had was with authenticity. Most people think albinos and bleached cards are easy to differentiate, right? I posted a long primer on some other forum about how to tell them apart, and I still 1) get PMs there asking me if card X is a legit albino or bleach and 2) see bleached cards on ebay selling as though they were albinos (easily into 3 figures). Any assumption of rationality with regards to the magic masses can be dispersed by a simple stroll through MWS games. The same applies to these as well.


Occam, I think you made some good arguments against cutting sheets and selling them as miscuts in the pimp thread a while ago. Even if you represent it clearly, someone down the road is going to be deceived. It's analogous to rebacking - if you do it to proxy pimp your EDH deck, fine, but I think everyone here would agree that selling rebacks is pretty shady. Also, since the point of miscuts is their rarity, this undermines the whole point.

That being said, "shouldn't be allowed to" sell them? Who's going to enforce that? I don't see any legitimate authority who could or should stop them.

It isn't just misrepresentation as a potential problem. There is also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

Take foil fillers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-FILLER-FOIL-BLANK-CARD-SP-MTG-Ships-Worldwide-/141008799548?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item20d4c7873c

Think about how much more these would cost if they weren't so easily created by acetone, and before we get even further, it isn't even that the acetoned cards are particularly professional. They aren't, like in the case of these ftv handcuts, and yet we still have the market for them being depressed.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to enforce anything -- that question is more from an ethical standpoint. As it is, Eli could potentially have traded off his reputation amongst certain people for a quick buck.

[bfeingersh]

Props to Eli for being transparent about the origin of these cards, but you know it won't be the same a year from now when the buyer wants to get rid of them. I vote not kosher for the long-term effects.

[theillest]

Props to Eli for being transparent about the origin of these cards, but you know it won't be the same a year from now when the buyer wants to get rid of them. I vote not kosher for the long-term effects.
*Translucent

In the descriptions he is balancing reputation maintenance and profit maximization.

[clavio]

Props to Eli for being transparent about the origin of these cards, but you know it won't be the same a year from now when the buyer wants to get rid of them. I vote not kosher for the long-term effects.

Why does it even matter?

[socialite]

Props to Eli for being transparent about the origin of these cards, but you know it won't be the same a year from now when the buyer wants to get rid of them. I vote not kosher for the long-term effects.

+1

[Occam]

Why does it even matter?

Are you being deliberately disingenuous? A bunch of essentially fake items appear for sale, sell for thousands of dollars in total, and you are asking what the issue is? What do you feel about rebacks being sold as rebacks on ebay?

[r3dd09]

It isn't just about getting a miscut Top, is it? Sure, it was one of his intentions, but the fact that the rest of the sheet is being hawked on ebay and facebook means profit must have entered the equation pretty prominently. That people might want these despite their nature is acceptable, but I don't think anyone should read too much into the free-market rhetoric that Eli was spouting on fb.



I was following that discussion and at one point crossed my fingers that Eli wouldn't respond and let the topic die out, but he replied and it made it a bit worse (in my eyes).

He has the money that not selling those shouldn't be a problem (I assume). He should have just kept them.

[Anusien]

I have seen some cards where the authenticity is in question. They always, somewhere along the way get misrepresented. And it's the world's biggest feel bad.

As a side note, I'm also skeptical about the legality of hand cut cards created from uncut sheets.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Eli is a top notch guy IMO I can't disagree with him selling it, I mean he gave disclosure which is more than most people would do. In the end what does it matter, people who collect miscuts for a premium are a very small section of MTG players and they should be able to identify when a miscut is too good to be true. Also you can basically see the cut marks even on that picture, you aren't going to fool people with that one.

[Malchar]

My only objection is that I don't like the idea of players cutting out their own cards. They should be cut by the manufacturer and approved by Wizards otherwise there could be some subtle differences in size or shape. A few years down the line these cards could have been traded around and the current owners might not even know that they were hand cut. An unsuspecting player might get caught with a card that has a slight size difference during a tournament and it could cause a huge problem.

The bottom line is that it's made to look like a real Magic card, but it wasn't made entirely by Wizards, so it is "fake" even if it is honest.

[apple713]

Are you being deliberately disingenuous? A bunch of essentially fake items appear for sale, sell for thousands of dollars in total, and you are asking what the issue is? What do you feel about rebacks being sold as rebacks on ebay?

rebacks would imply that they are of alpha/beta origin and people trading for alpha / betas should know what to look for in spotting a fake / reback. While I understand your analogy, the analogy introduces another problem, it increases the number of alpha / beta's in circulation, (supposing that some were mistaken for actual alpha/betas). What "eli" is doing is simply just taking a card that would have been put into circulation and actually doing so. If the card is miscut or not it was intended to be printed and does not inflate the amount in circulation. I understand that 5 years from now the owners of these miscut cards will probably have traded them / sold them and it will not be represented correctly HOWEVER, if you are a collector you will probably know that there were no factory miscuts of this FTV set and easily assume these are not legit anyways.

in short, these fakes probably wont deceive a true collector or someone willing to trade for it. Anyone willing to pay their asking price should understand enough about cards to question their authenticity when they see the edges alone. If a card gets traded to a casual player they probably wouldnt care as long as they could play with it.




My only objection is that I don't like the idea of players cutting out their own cards. They should be cut by the manufacturer and approved by Wizards otherwise there could be some subtle differences in size or shape. A few years down the line these cards could have been traded around and the current owners might not even know that they were hand cut. An unsuspecting player might get caught with a card that has a slight size difference during a tournament and it could cause a huge problem.

The bottom line is that it's made to look like a real Magic card, but it wasn't made entirely by Wizards, so it is "fake" even if it is honest.

While i dont have a problem with what eli did I think your method of thought is probably the best way to approach the situation.

[Dan Turner]

I have an Library that was cut from a sheet looks perfect except that it is a hair wider then a standard card. Makes it next to impossible to even play in perfect fits.